##VIDEO ID:yLhUmZJyrGE## okay are you ready yeah ready please turn off all cell phones agenda of the pumpt and Lake Zoning Board of adjustments November 26 2024 the following is the agenda of the regular meeting of the pumpt lake Zoning Board of adjustment the meeting is to be held in the Municipal Building 25 Linux Avenue on Tuesday November 26 2024 beginning at 8:00 a written advance notice as required by njsa 10 SM 4-1 that set has been provided of this meeting at least 48 hours in advance of today given the time date and location and to the extent known at the time the agenda of this meeting such note is stated that formal action May or remain not be taken the meeting will be video recorded and will be re uh will be broadcasted for later viewing for the public the notice was posted on the balen board outside the the offices of the municipal clerk reserved for this in similar announcements provided to the Suburban Trends the newspaper designated by the council and planning board to receive such notices and filed with the borer clerk everyone please stand the [Music] bud congatulations to the FL of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible in Justice for All roll call please Mr Hunt here Mr AB here miss Curran here Mr C here miss bernstock yes Mr Rowan here Mr vag here Mr Luan will be absent Mr Fula here Mr Devon y okay and we have mayor Sarah councilman Cruz Andy bre and the will be no engineer or planners tonight okay um let's see here uh minutes of the regular meeting for October 22nd 2024 everyone had an opportunity to read those minutes yes yes any additions Corrections if not can I get a motion to accept those minutes than in current can I get a roll call please okay Mr um Mr Hunt yes Mr aate yes Miss curan yes Mr C yes Miss brunck yes Mr Rowan yes Mr rag yes Mr fagula yes and Mr Dante yes okay um we've had uh multiple correspondents they are available for review if you like to you can see Carina after the meeting and she'll give you those to review there's just too many too big to uh attach to the um to the packets okay um so we're going to go right to the applications boa 24-7 uh Silva 70 Barber drive please come forward you guys are you were both sworn you were M under the road you still have to tell the truth before you talk state your name again just go my name have a [Applause] SE okay um so this is a continuation from the last meeting um in regards to his application on 70 Barber Drive regarding the um the pool and fencing and deck um so why don't you um tell us what you uh provided and um explain your pictures um and then we'll start to have some questions for you we we provide the upscale pool survey of the uh and some photos of the pool and measurements with uh with our tape measures and the pictures and stuff like that for where everything is generally located on the pool and we also have the uh location of where the pool pump in is in the current existing condition which as discussed in the previous meeting we discussed that we all agree that we should remove it from that um and our idea here is to seek permission to leave the pool in its existing place and to make the modifications necessary to make sure it's up to code and bring everything forward so we had some questions um on your application uh regarding your your uh the measurements and I see that you you basically eliminated all those um measurements now there was some question regarding the shed that's um I guess towards the front of the property yes that shed is is um you is that the one that was um removable yes okay and your concrete um that shows his concrete those are actually uh pavers is that correct correct they just P yes they not so it's not a solid mass of concrete it is that was also part of the conversation regarding your uh loot coverage was it correct because because we thought it was concrete I believe so I I don't believe that we discussed lock coverage during the last meeting I do know that in my previous notes we were it was IND discretion up to what it was that the main inspector had questioned about why the pool was on the on the fence line and we clarified that when we spoke to person it was about the location of the fence and how there is actually a space but based on his his line of sight it looked like that it was over the fence when it was not and we here also provided photos of that as well sure just one or two questions do you have some of these measurements are from the chain Lane fence and from the vinal fence has somebody confirmed that those fences are on the property line are they over are they under because the measurement has to be from the actual proper I I looked at the property line on the survey on the survey and I compared them to what was there and from my experience of looking at property lines the fence is on the inside of the property line but the question is uh do we have anything that stipulates that it's from the property line or from the fence line so the measurements that I have are from the fence line so we're not sure if it's the property line this particular T from my understanding of the white PVC fence the property line is on the outside of that of that but we have nothing definitive to tell us that there are no there are no land markers there what what what do you base your understanding on well I I've installed fences many times before and I have experience with that but when I was looking at the properties the two properties combined the other neighbor does not have the fence and this fence he has the vinyl fence is actually his fence and statistically if you need a to install a fence you need a permit you need to be inspected you want to be  but you need a permit to install a pool and a deck and everything else too so that is correct that doesn't always happen that way but and I think that there it fears that the the the uh fence in the back is over on the other side is that that's what it depicts here it's on the other side of the property l so and I'm not trying to be hard I just want to make sure the measurements are correct you don't I don't have a vote here I just want to on your on your original plan that you submitted right excuse me on your original plans that you submitted the property defense is beyond yeah yeah no it it that that one is right this one is the scale of the okay so when the architect did that he sent it I didn't have that actually I request for that uh for the for that paper so I sent the first one that that that the that the architect sent so this one you can look at better but that one is the one that is correct and the and the Shain line the chain light is in the in the train part but the pool it's on or all pool is in my property line we we know that from the rail trial guy because he went to my house he told me that is 13 ft from the rail to the to the to the house for my property line so the pool is inside the property line it's on the edge but it's the pool is in your property line that is correct but the deck not the deck the deck is not no no no the de yes the not according to this diagram let me see uh which one do have we're I was I thought we were talking about the VL no we're talking about the fence that's up against the uh railroad yes so the chain link fence here we have is actually shown on this diagram to be on the railroad's property not your property yes and based on based on this diagram here that you're showing me so you're you're basically your deck is on not your property from the fence line inside we have a photo depicting the location of the of the is and there's the CH be yeah that right I see that I yeah [Music] the on this doc yeah yes and maybe if you maybe maybe I don't have that this was submitted with you yeah on the first on the first the first you come here than or here's the the original no no no not that no it's not the one that he has has this one the with that's okay on the top [Applause] lap if you're looking at the this is depicting the proper line there's the chaining fences on the other side of the property your deck I would know on scale this what the uh scale rati and I do know that so what we have a problem with is that this is not nothing is clearly telling us where you're end of your deck is your deck on your property or on the on the railroads property and I can't tell you by the this what [Music] we that this is something you need to tell [Music] us up here two to four that could no that mean I have no idea what this is that's what I Wasing so 01 116 is supposed to be 2T uh I see here in this corner on this blown up one it says 0.1 to equate 2.4 which looks like to be supposed to be 2T for every 1/16 of an inch on the tap measure if you were to take a tape measure measure off of these lines that are currently to the scale on that survey there 1116 which is 0.1 of an inch should equivalate to 2.4 which would be 2 4 [Music] in so this deck in the back half because the deck sits at 15 in we would have to modify the deck about 10 in or 12 in to accommodate to to guarantee that it sits back on the poerty line does that make sense or no I mean it sort of makes sense but it's not very clear I'll I'll uh I'm not saying what should what can do should and none of this please don't take any of that you you've your application contains only the property that he owns yes so if something is go over the property line they have no ability to to approve that to say you can do that they have the ability to approve you can do up to the property line I don't know if they will yeah and they might not they might want you a little bit off that property line but if that's there they cannot approve their Deb that is over your property line because that belongs to somebody else's property they have never asked they haven't come here and said it's okay so no matter what it can I don't disagree with you okay um my main concern was the neighbors I know that there's even though it's a railroad and they technically are a neighbor there is no traffic back there besides a train and maybe some live animals here and there um but my main concern was not to disrupt any of the living neighbors that are next door and I would mainly put most of my attention in the on the vinyl fence uh not really in the backyard of the fence and it was my fault because my judgment based on assuming this this chaining fence has been there for many years uh I just assume that it was that was on the inside proper line on the way the fence is install so I know Israel got that understand that it may have been there for that long period of time but it's still the requirement of the the applicant to submit plans and to get a permit to build the deck of that nature where you built it and that didn't happen so now we're in a situation where now we're trying to understand everything so that we can make a decision based on the data that's presented to us yes okay so so based on our findings and what discussed here we I would like to make sure that the deck sits within the criteria of what we were asking for and make sure that I can make sure that it's on the property line itself if I have to modify it I can modify for him um and then I want to just we want to have the ability to leave the pool in its existing place I can move the deck back uh it shouldn't be a problem at all so long as it's up the code and everything is in page that's all I have for questioning so if you got open up to the board anybody wants to ask the t uh the applicant questions feel free to go ahead well who was the person that did this drawing on survey he's a friend of mine he's an architect ER his name is RA he works in F I take it the chain link fence was there when Mr Silva bought the property yeah so let's get on the conversation regarding the fence then so what what's the situation with the fence the vinyl fence who whose fence is that is that your fence their fence which your neighbor's fence the vinyl fence that runs between the property lines that's that's uh based on the way it's designed it's facing the it's the installation of it shows that it's it's um isra fence it is isra fence okay there when you move in as well yes and the the heater and the filtration system that you were agreeing to move that under the deck yeah under the deck on the inner innermost part of the deck like right the stairs area the power lines and everything else that are under the ground they will all have to be removed and routed and inspected and inspected making sure you meet all the criteria regarding the uh building officials um guidelines correct yes okay which side of the deck are you putting it under as far as the pump system I would like to put it on the side of the deck where the stairs are mhm so it's the opposite side of where it is now yes and what about is this is a heater if I'm not mistaken the one unit don't work is the fan uh suitable to be blowing uh hot air uh right through your deck is that deck going to be wood is that deck plastic that's a composite deck and Israel Israel no longer wishes to have that installed he says it doesn't work it doesn't work he says it it it don't really H that all right so you're not installing the heater you're only you're only going to change the filtration system is going to be underneath and and for the back this this heater is only a 110 20 amp heater it's not a gas powered unit or anything that's czy so but it will not be there okay did you have the filter or the heater inspected no man no nothing on this project to my knowledge is inspected for the record two there is no permitting of this Pro of this project at all this this was a a contractor not me uh told Israel that he could do this because it was a kit that he bought online this whole pool kit and he was not he was unaware of all the setbacks and the guidelines and everything as this is his first home that he has purchased and he just moved his family and he was so excited to move in here you're talking about Israel Israel yeah and when he called me I got frustrated with him dude I'm a contractor I know you almost 20 years of my life you know like why didn't you call me in the beginning all he said is he didn't want to bother me so um it's very complicated at this point it is it is and it's costed now more than what the pool cost and what the contractor took because apparently there's some money that he took all well and didn't come back as soon as the town got involved the guy just took a hike so and that's that's why I'm here a license contractor as well I did I did a lot of work in this town and I did a lot of work in other towns as well in area you're building a house in West Milford and I want to help him here to get through this process so finish this get inspected and that's it can can we maybe recap on what issues if if the heater is I'm sorry the filters moved over that's one question and I don't think um as long as it's with the building department that's no longer something that's on the the side setback right it's no longer an issue as far as setback goes the issue that we have is is there is still a sidey yard setback because there's under they ran underground electrical to this unit so that has to be removed and then um rean and then inspected and the um property line from the fence to the edge of the pool that doesn't meet the criteria as well because it's too it's it's n all right so what we have we if if he were to move the filter over the issues that we have to approve are the distance from the of the pool and the deck to the side uh yard we we have identified that we have an issue that we cannot approve which is putting a um a deck outside of the property line you cannot approve that and that we're talking about his recommendation or suggestion is to bring that inside of the property line and how much is up to us to discuss and uh outside of that I mean is there anything on missing uh other other parts of the variants that that are required well there's the amount of uh property involved I think he's the last 2% there is and it's up over 28 as part of of the original denial his coverage was 29% and his permitted is 25% was that based on not knowing it was faor though or was that based I again I don't have all those uh that information in front of me I don't know if it was the the pool the deck did it include where the it states concrete real reality is it cavers so then that would but we don't know that so I don't know that and we don't know where the fences the vinyl fences in terms of the property line correct surve updated surve so there's a lot of unknowns here still okay um we um suggested at our last meeting that we get a total understanding as to what it is that you're asking us for because right now we don't have that yeah we don't have um you know the side yard set back where is it going to be is that from the fence or is that from the property line is the vinyl fence where it needs to be or is that still an issue the back of the deck where it goes against the chain link fence we need some really good information as to whose property is this deck on is it on your property or is it on uh the railroads property then you're going to need to come back to us and say okay we understand that this is where it's at this is what we're prepared to do we're suggesting that you that's not what you want you want to go to and see if if the board will approve that's up to you but there's a lot of unknowns here still not to interrupt M my concern is the pool the deck was built around this pool and I can modify that easily without any troubles no no problem whatsoever if I have to dismantle this pool it's it's one of those kits that once you dismantle it can no longer be reassembled and you'd have to buy a whole new pool over again now I don't mind modifying the deck as much as we can to keep keep the setbacks correctly we would like to keep the pool itself in the original location as the deck is freestanding from the pool they're two different items so the pool itself we were asking for it to stay in its location and we did provide measurements but if they're not accurate enough we can get more accurate measurements away based on what we have here in Sp is this something that you can go to the building department and have um s u give him some guidelines as to what it is that um what the requirements are and he has to be 12T off the line for the pool that's number one and then and I know from pre previous experience you have when you do a filtration system like that it has to be so far away from the pool for when you run your power so that will also determine where you're going to need to put your filtration yes so that's something that um the the town has uh guidelines to help you um and and based on that um it would be um a recommendation or a suggestion uh to get all that together all of that can be moved the concern is the Locking mechanisms based on the pool itself once once that liner is destroyed it's and I understand that but I'm thinking is is if you get all that information from the building uh uh sou and have all that then that will help us determine if the pool can stay right where it's at um but to have us if you're asking us if that's what you want um we can um consider it and and and tell us exactly what you're asking for at this meeting and then we can vote on that but right now as I'm um sitting here there's just there's a lot of um questions and not a lot of answers Happ I understand we we had a meeting with s and based on the notes and the photos that we we we had presubmit we kind of had an okay from him that was like cuz he saw all this stuff he said it all looked good to me he said propose it to the board and that was that's why I'm a little confused here's uh um good thing about it is I don't think anybody's swimming in this pool until net yeah so you're not you're not fighting to do that um mean I hate to say but the best way for the measurements is a surveer that's the best unfortunately that is um just to to find out exactly where that property line is and then you can say then you can amend your application to say we amend this application for the rear deck to be 1 in 3 in 9 in whatever it is whatever you cut off and make it so then you come back and they know exactly what you're asking on how far that is and then with the survey can you know the distances they all are and also find out there the the impervious coverage which you know that's water doesn't go down so it runs off that's why there's a limitation on 25% cers some if they're perious and water can filter through they're not really C I think the other meeting with s figure out was he taking into account that you have papers that water can go through or not if the calculation is still 29% because he said yes those you know those count in the impervious calculation so yes it's still 29 then you'll ask for 29 well well s did walk the property and he did see these photos so there is no's not here he's not here moment yeah that's right I respectfully ask that if if there's been changes um then uh s May submit something to us so that we can um get a better understanding of what their conversations were and and Sal probably has a gut reaction that how you build it probably going to be fine and and he and his his okay is that moving things moving the pump from one place to another is okay he has he doesn't care where this board decides you can where you can put things his okay yeah it'll work physically he knows how to build things he he know he doesn't make the decisions on how far they can be from the property line so he wouldn't be giving the okay on that I know sou He he'll definitely be giving reactions on yeah you could do that it'll work something yeah he knows how to build things absolutely but the distance that's that's them okay okay he updated what he did updated oh was updated yeah it's in the packet the one that you asked for in what packet his package yeah I put I put it in Fr cover you're supposed to tell us yeah but but here on here it's still saying that your lock coverage is 29% requested 25% permitted so there is still a question as to what is that that is a question here because it doesn't say it doesn't we don't know if he was taking into consideration the payers you're you're absolutely right and if not if he was or not all you're going to have to do is ask and so when you come back with all the measurements and a survey or something they said we'd like to amend the application to include a variance to have a 29% rather than 25% and they can then consider it but he's telling telling you right now it's 25 you need that parents it's not a big hurdle to ask for it and amend your application that's not the problem just I I know I'm being a stickler but I know I got to know what to write so s can then go out and measure from property lines make sure everything is where it's supposed to beay yeah and again we're we're in the winter no one's using the pool I know I know it's a pain to have to come back but I think that that's the best that be my recommendation yeah I think that I think that's probably the best and um one go ahead so one suggestion based on what you just said in terms of testimony about concern of the pool is it would be very helpful um to minimize every foot that you can on the uh the distance to the fence and so the deck that you're showing that's buting out past the pool um to me that should be you know you should consider sh shaving that off as a as a means of helping us to um you know come to an acceptance of of The Proposal yeah and I I only speak for myself but you know to me it's like why push it you know it's already you know supposed to be 10 ft right I mean I didn't build a deck I wouldn't have builts anyway so we we do know that it does need to be modified we think into consideration getting the deck uh getting the furthest distance of the pool itself and leave it at that and bring the deck inward is that what you're suggesting no yeah what I'm saying is where the line is that shows 4.6 ft uh the pool I believe is is is a little bit more if I'm if I'm reading this right yes the pool the pool itself is larger so why why bring this in this must be another foot or you know 8 in or I don't know what it is but that should be straight along the line of the pool shouldn't exceed the pole I I understand what you're yes you're talking about the distance this this what I just said is we shave this back so the furthest distance of the pool itself Remains the only distance that's correct there and straight line squared on exactly the last one of the last things on s's newest newest yeah letter says at the bottom install I don't know if that's supposed to be installed install fence will need zoning permits there's a he has a swinging door that he added to the fence that was existing and he when we were discussing about the fence he wanted to make sure that the fence is appropriate to code where any the soft closing latches marking mechanism because the fence itself around the pool around the pool yeah around the pool and to make sure that the fence on the prop on the existing property has the proper latching mechanisms to open and close agre okay okay so so you good on what you should come back with yeah I have a better understanding that originally it was it was discussed what what we wanted then we talk to S and then we s to presented this and I threw wrenches in it by saying I need Precision sorry that's okay that's right I think the ultimate goal is to get it right and get it going next time and then we don't and that's why we're here cuz if we if we were if that wasn't the goal we wouldn't be here understood um so you're okay with carrying this to the next meeting no problem at all okay now our next meeting will not be in December it will be in January correct Corina okay we're not once again be the fourth Tuesday in January 8:00 there no further need for notice Tuesday Tuesday not Thursday I thought it was Thursday the Thursday last Thursday I was here yeah yeah okay very right good okay Jus if you give me your information as well I can update you yes ma'am okay like the email and phone number yes it's uh 973 um 973 626 626 8363 8363 and how do you spell your last name a V and Victor i s h a y [Music] okay yeah have to do okay good good thank you thank you so much enjoy your Thanksgiving Happy Thanksgiving Happy Thanksgiving your next one I think snow like to I I hold on hold on yeah we heard that we heard wait wait wait wait wait wait please please sit down please sit down you guys are done you guys are done you guys are good thank you okay so Isel if this if this is not call part of the testimony congratulations thank just given then we're not ready for this yet okay correct that's correct correct thank you open that's correct now iost is this for the next application that's coming is it for this to just happen no yes that has to wait that anything else has to wait till the public to and you I'm okay should be the next one now it's you want you you can amend the agenda okay um so what we'll do is uh we'll uh amend the agenda and we'll uh open up the the floor to allow Mrs snow to to uh I have no issues all I want to say again is what I said last uh last time that you were here that I was here that I just want to support the bu the builder that built the refurbished house that's diagonal across from me and two and two um houses away I just want to support him and I don't know what the issue is but I know that all we want to do is bring back pton lakes and now I say I didn't even realize you were here this time um that we've I've been here since 1979 P Lakes was very different then than it is now and we're trying to bring it back and he his building and the beauty that he has brought just to what I know I just want to support him and I don't know what the issue is and I don't really care but I just want to want you to know that he what he's doing is exactly what we want to do for pton laks and if I were you people I would see whether he could go if you would be interested in doing other building projects in order to beautify P LS and I just that's the only reason why I'm here and he's not a friend of mine I can't even pronounce his name s or something like that um he but he's a person that I'm just astounded that there might be a problem and I just want to say that we all are very grateful to him and what he has done for our um pton lakes and I just hope that whatever the situation is that you get him help because he's doing what we want I moved here the same year you did 1979 and I taught here in this school for 38 years I didn't even realize he was here last that's noce good so anyway thank you for letting me speak you're welcome I just can't stay walk away okay thank you sorry no not I don't know what the problem is way we have to hear it we have to hear it what we haven't heard testimony haven't heard it yet that's that's why we're waiting that's we're waiting for oh okay okay all right thank you go good should I stay here for ma'am it's totally up to you but you're going to have to wait until after the application comes forward I set my thing okay understood appreciate your time okay and it's not just me we all support him okay thank you that's okay okay so uh we're going to um go to uh boa2 24-8 um El forgive me Eldin uh on West lenx Avenue pumpt laks please come forward apologize no we going pleas could you both raise your right hand state your name mag can you spell your last e l d r e n y please State your last state your name last hands up you swear or affirm that the testimony you'll give before this board will be the truth to hold Tru and nothing but the truth to help you gu please have a seat if you're in the 200 yes yep remove himself in the room do I have to remove myself uh yes hey you're not a Bo you're not he's not a board member but he's a member of the public only yep that's um the reason why Frank has reused himself is because he's in the proximity of your the neighborhood yes I know so that's the reason why he's and stu okay um so why don't you tell us about your project that you're going on here why you're in front of the board looking for a variance okay I asking the board to okay first of all I build the shant because the wind take the sh out I buil it and I read in the website if it is lesser than 2,000 ft you don't need the permit I do it my neighbor saw me she complain I went to her and she tell me yes you have to get permit even I have the house with the Shi I don't build it in the beginning I I move you a whole step except she tell me I have to move from the fence to the shed it uh 5 ft I did that the other side 5 ft the only problem now I have it from my deck to the Shell it's supposed to be 12 ft now it is 8 sheet I ask the board if she get give me you know VAR for thank you now um in the denial letter you all done okay the uh in the denial letter you're in the flood plane also you're aware of that is right that's something that needs to be understood um that you're building a structure in a flood plan but it is was before you know if it was before we don't we have to go by what's being installed if it was permitted before or not probably it's not our in our we have to address what's being asked of us and and based on what um s's denial letter he just he's basically saying that this is in a flood plane IR regardless of what was there before rules of all change so unfortunately we have to abide by them and it says it must follow permit by rule number 13 um minimum distance between the buildings is 12 ft which you already addressed on dra ched not on the scale for sure okay um okay um I uh understand what your application is but at this point we're going to open up to the board and let them ask any questions of of your testimony the shed that you replaced is it just a bigger shed than the than the last one and that's why it's no the same same exact size have you experienced any flooding there where it says I don't know about the flooding [Music] anybody else on the board have any questions for the applicant none go ahead um I see on your plat plan that um the shed on one on this one is okay and on this one is scratching out and the problem with the shed is that it's too close to the fence no in the beginning it was too close to the fence I make the construction to broke it down and move it because it it was before 3 ft only and when I went to the town she tell me no you have to be 5T now right I tell the construction broke it down and move it 5 ft okay so now it's 5T 5 ft both Sid and everything uh it is normal except from the deck to the shed okay okay I'm understanding what happened here is the roof blew off and they had uh wind damage and uh took the roof off the the old structure so the old shed has been replaced with the new shed and doesn't meet the we know we need the for that because we just replace it right and now um the question is now that it's too close to the deck so that's what they're asking for a variance for and the the other issue that s has uh indicated that it is in the flood plane which is something that's going to have to be addressed but that's for S and the applicant to uh take care of so what that means is that this board can bend the rules or give you a variance to allow you to build things too close to your deck or the side whatever but in the flood plane they don't regulate that s there there's another entity that that that regulates if there is if if your property is in a place where sometimes it floods or other regulations this board can't give you that permission s may be able to help you with that one but that that I just want you all to understand what that meant you think it's us to the board if give me permission to leave it at 8 ft they you may need someone else's permission also because it's in a South Point out it's in the flood area so this board can't give you permission to build in flood area other entities May if you can demonstrate a few things but that's not Bo on that's that's a so so here's here's the board can approve your request to um reduce from 12T to 8 ft okay that's the that's the board that's what our authorization is however you're looking to build something in a flood plane we have no jurisdiction over that that's sou and other entities that you would have to go to to to see if this could be built we can't tell you we can approve the 8 to uh from the 12 to 8 but the other portion of this that's something that we cannot vote up we canot give you authorization for just I know quickly it's says I think he said it would might be eligible for a permit by rule right what that means is briefly sometimes you have to go and you have to provide and they'll give testimony and provide information a permit by rule is if you can demonstrate that you meet a few standards you get then you you have the right but you have to establish that s can tell you what the permit by rule requirements are that's something that you do it's a little less cumbersome it's a little less detailed but s can tell you what need demonstr the Spector who the building inspector that's what a okay okay anybody else on the board have any questions for applicant no okay at this point I'm going to open it up to the public to speak on the testimony that was given by the applicant Michael Sarah 41 West LX I happen to be the neighbor across the street uh the question I have the board would be this shed has been there for 30 years it was crep it down and fell apart so they were replacing it um probably doing the right thing and try to put a new shed there the problem became that they couldn't put the shed in the same spot because it was too close to the property lines so they did the right thing they came to the town and they moved it where they're getting caught is just what you brought up is the is the flood zone which they're not aware of so that's a new rule that the state has passed that says if you're in a flood zone you can't build anything that's where everybody in a flood zone and we all in in flood zone I'm in flood Zon I don't if I know I don't so the question I have for the attorney or for the chairman is if they had built it in the exact same place would the still it this so what they would have needed to do is ask for a variance for the the backyard setback and the side yard setback and they can probably put it right back where it was so if they want to amend their application to ask for that um again we would then entertain the idea of of that variance request however the flood plane still becomes the issue so either way the flood plane that was I was just trying to say if they had put it back where it was maybe they and I don't know perit permit by rule the permit by rule may say the exact same thing it's been there since before x correct because the new location wouldn't qualify if in fact that was the standard per by rule putting back in the exact same place May satisfy I apologize I don't so s would be able to direct them um as to what that by rules when I put it in the same place you said you have to move she told me I have to move it rightt from this side and 5 ft from this side basically that's the ordinance right however you can ask for a variance of that ordinance just like you're asking us 40 the uh for from the 12 ft to the 8 ft you can ask for variances and ask that sidey yard and backyard setbacks to be changed and and basically well I think that's some this is just so we're done with the public session so I'm going to close the public session so let's go back to your application so if that's something that you would want to do um either way you're going to have to talk to South to get an understanding of what this permit by rule means and what and how you would be able to uh build this structure okay um but what you can ask us of the board is to say I we're looking for a variance uh going from the 12 ft to the 8T and that's what you're asking if that's what you're asking for you have to let us know that's what you're asking right the so that's what you're asking right okay thank you very much well you're not done yet okay so now we have an understanding what we what you're looking for question I go ahead I think it doesn't matter and this is just because I been there I also after 50 years got called in a flood plane and I wanted to fix one panel of a broken fence and it was it was too much trouble so I I left my broken fence so I think you need to decide it doesn't I don't think it's going to matter whether you put it where it was or if you move it I even over there decis since I got the house I didn't know we are in flood that's a variance either way and right yeah I just I think they should take care of that whenever they want and then go to S about the the flo planate Rule 13 right okay so is that what you're asking the board you're asking the board to uh consider the uh the variance request from uh 12 feet to 8 feet is that correct from the edge of the deck to the the shed correct that's the very that's the application can I get a motion from anyone on the board to uh approve or or request or deny that request I'll make a motion I'll make a motion that we approve second subject to of course flood me the requirements of the flood plane and the building permit the building in uh building instructor bring regarding the flot plane I second roll call please okay so we have uh R in um B bstock yes okay Mr Hunt yes Mr aate um sorry M curan yes Mr C yes uh Miss bernstock yes uh Mr Rowan yes Mr Big yes Mr Fula yes and Mr Devante yes okay so uh next month resolution that get published in the paper um and then you have in 45 days after that you're you could go talk to S although now you need go talk to s next week whatever say it's been approved it's coming but start to work on the um figuring out the flood Hazard area have to work with him you can let him know if he if you then get approval from him on the flood area you could go to the building department and you can sign a waiver that says I understand I may have to wait 45 days from them they challenge it and you could then get your permits if you get approval from South okay okay good luck [Music] thanks you want to take a five minute break and I'll go get sounds like a plan take a 5 minute recess take we taking a 5 minute break super time okay 92 got it ready okay uh we're going to continue on with the meeting boa 24-10 AC Builders LLC 126 L Avenue pump and leaks uh block 6900 lot 6 Zone R4 applicant here good evening uh board uh Dustin from well I'm the attorney oh you're attorney okay I'm sorry I apologize yeah I do that too if you want me to test um Dustin glass from samaro iny on behalf of the applicant ACC Builders uh the applicant is here in the audience uh will not be testifying it's not planned we do have a planner tonight uh to go through the application what you have before you is an application for a uh Bol variance relief for a fence that has been installed uh obviously required a permit to do so or required relief to do so uh the applicant didn't get that uh you'll have the denial letter in your possession it's for a 6' tall vinyl fence um in the front yard setback this lot is a corner lot uh so it has two front yards which obviously makes it a little unique um fence was installed a little over a year ago um and we're now here trying to get uh you know relief for that and um with that I think be best if I brought up our planner to provide some planning testimony describe I'll say the project the fence where it is and uh and the reasons for why we should be entitled for those okay please just remain standing raise your right hand state your name spell your last please yes Charles height last h y DT you swear affirm the testimony you'll give this evening before this board will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you gu I do you said uh I'll go through some background uh questions to qualify the witness uh Mr he what's your education I have a bachelor's of Economics from the College of New Jersey and a Masters in City and Regional planning from Ruckers University and uh what is your profession I am a professional planner and your present employment uh dreser Robin we're an environmental planning engineering firm and how long have you been there I've been there approximately 7even years we'll be eight in January right uh can you give a few examples of towns that you've uh provided testimony before uh I appear routinely throughout the state of New Jersey at planning and zoning boards um mostly for uh development applications for site plan approvals for mixed use residential development um there are often times for accessory uses uh but uh in terms of uh this area um the there I I should be looking at a map and I'm blanking now but um uh Wayne uh parsipany um I'm trying to think of a few others but um I was submitted qualified absolutely AG all right um so uh with regards to the property at 126 at lanx Avenue could you take me through a little bit of your uh investigation and what you did to prepare so yes um we did look at the documents with the application the asilt survey um we did have discussions with the applicant and um the project attorney um I also did a site visit uh today um prior to today I also reviewed the municipal documents zoning ordinance and master plan and you describe the property so the property is a single family um residential property there's uh two and a it's approximately 2 and a half stories it sits at the corner of lenx Avenue and Roma Avenue um there's a driveway and uh driveway off of Lennox Avenue um the width or the front of the property uh is oriented towards Lennox and the property runs deeper along Roma Avenue um there is a an existing detached shed in uh the rear corner um and that's I guess a general description and uh could you describe the the project although so the the fence in question um is constructed uh it does uh begin at the rear corner of the principal structure uh it comes to Romain Avenue approximately uh 5 to 10 ft uh and then it runs along row Main Avenue to the rear property line um and then back over to the detached garage uh so it does kind of secure in the that rear portion along Main Avenue um the technical issue uh is that because it is a corner property as per the zoning ordinance both the portion of the property along Lennox and roma are both recognized as front yards uh this spard is probably aware of that um fences are regulated differently in the front yards than they are in the rear yards or side yards um so we are if I'm on a roll y continue go for it let me see where you're going Contin we are requesting relief because of the fence being located in the technical front yard a portion of the fence is actually located in the rear yard that's fine that can be 6 F feet it can be opaque in the front yard fences are regulated on two characteristics one is fence height um four ft permitted we are proposing or as buil six and the other aspect is uh the opaqueness so it's got to be a 50% clear um you might consider the the quintessential picket fence um other fences in this area are chainlink fences or a barn sty a farm style fence with long linear um post and posts um so that's the technical relief uh it is 100% opaque so it's I guess the reverse would be 0% um open appearance uh and is at the 6 ft um along remain so um these are what's called bulk variances as Bo's familiar with that term uh it's a lower uh jurisdiction than any sort of use related aspect single family home and a residential Zone the use is not in question but in terms of justifying the bulk variances there's two standards um one is a hardship standard the other is where benefits outweigh the detriment so um I would not rest on just the fact that it's a corner of property and therefore it's a hardship but ordan is written specifically for Corner properties what I am going to offer this board in terms of justification is that there are specific attributes of the property where the physical home exists where the um where the fence was constructed that has some St uh some appropriate design benefits uh in terms of dimensional aspects that outway the detriment so that's the flexible standard um again recognizing that it was constructed without permits without coming to this board that's not necessarily my purview uh but had it not been constructed um these are some of the aspects that we would have looked at um that would have helped kind of weigh a decision for this board to to make so uh first and foremost it is uh at a Crossroads of Roma Avenue and Lennox uh so just to SC describe that intersection in a little bit more detail uh Roma Avenue uh is the main thorough there and Lennox is the side street with a Stop Bar at that intersection um I should mention I have photos probably did do better than my description yeah if we could Mark these as ESS exhibit a I'll mark one these are so these are sorry these are separate these are from site visit today okay the new pictures correct okay yeah just A1 just describe quickly what A1 is a three-page exhibit of photos I took them today um it had a total of six photos but it's three pages three sheets so 812 secretary yeah I have uh 10 copies I don't know who we we we can we can share so one here here do here take care of [Music] that thank thank you um so I I'll just double back with the description um this is viewing the property from the intersection I was safe when I was taking these there wasn't much traffic it was about 9:00 9:30 um there are two schools in the area the Middle School to High School uh it's in between both schools so a lot of uh walking occurs like understand some of the um safety concerns that I'll get into um with pedestrians but this is the the first image figure one is a view of the structure uh it did just go under uh renovation uh on the exterior so it does look uh nice uh and updated um figure two on on the first sheet is at the rear of the property again along Romain you can see the length of of the fence along Romain at the end of the fence it does turn back to the house but this is on rain just noting that the fence is set back from the sidewalk approximately 3 ft so there's sufficient space on on both sides uh it's not a buding the sidewalk it's not you know right on top of it so from a to death stream standpoint um there's a nice bit of space between the fence and the sidewalk um if we go on to page two what what I did in trying to understand characteristics of fences within this proximity I'm not looking at fences on what's called interior locks uh we're really looking at fenes on Corner locks so I went to every intersection uh in a one block radius there's a total of nine including this so the three North the two on the sides and the three South um I would say half of them don't have any fences um the next quarter have what you would call either a chain Ling fence or a picket fence uh and the the last few are some that I've collected here that show you different Renditions of similar situations where they would need variany so in doing this I've understood why um some of these properties are fenced like this um a couple other tidbits but first and foremost um figure three uh has what you would say a a 5ot high wooden fence um you can see the home is oriented to uh the to the viewer of the photo um so this fence is again kind of closing in the space beyond the home in the sidey yard which is an extension of the rear hope that was clear uh so the front space in front of yard and and including both front yards is is predominantly open um again in figure four it's a very similar characteristic where the home is oriented to side street off to the right and you can see what would be the side of the home into the rear yard that fence it's it's farther back uh is located um within the technical front yard because it comes to the street at a corner property but it's enclosing the rear space so both these examples are uh very similar to what's being proposed or um requesting relief tonight um again these two examples did have uh 100% or zero um open appearance I found many other instances where it was a picket fence with a extremely dense HED row that was upwards of 10 15 ft the same issues from a zoning standpoint are not being addressed in that situation but technically it complies um if we move on to sheet three the last uh is again the picture five is an example of that combination where it's a uh I would say a 3T or 4T High opaque wooden fence um but in this instance there's probably an additional 10 ft of dense Evergreen vegetation so um it completely screens that portion of the front yard um again not saying if they're approved they're existing we should be approved just providing evidence of existing conditions to speak a little bit more about the intent um the first and foremost uh reason that I think this board should be comfortable with what's being uh proposed or the relief being necessary is uh two as two aspects one the What's called the site triangle in um planning or civil engineering terms is the position at a driver at a stop sign how far they can see through the intersection for opposing traffic uh this is that point um I lowered the camera to what's approximately 3 3 and 1/2 ft for sedan obviously trucks are higher but they have a better visual from down um and then I'm standing at the Stop Bar um looking through so the interesting thing when you do this is there's a Bend IN Romain Avenue this is unique to this property this intersection that then actually moves away from the subject property um and you can see the next intersection Beyond uh this one so not only is there sufficient sight triangles for three positions of a car on Roma but you could see anyone stopped at the next intersection um that's the geometry of these streets uh I think that's a unique and mitigating Factor um the proposed fence is also located approximately 75 ft away from Lennox Avenue so again another very physical real dimension of this property um if this fence is closer if it's it's truly at the front of the structure uh I you would not be able to St the same so because it starts at the rear of the structure and the property's deep and there's already a setback there's approximately a 50ft setback for the structure itself of 45 um you have a lot more distance from the fence to Lennox Avenue so those are some of the photos um and part of the initial justification um from a design aspect uh the intent here is uh a new fence it's two-tone um the uh rationale for proposing the fences to provide some um privacy and security from uh Roma Avenue which has through traffic there's no Stop Bar Roma so there's a lot of through traffic just preventing any interaction with what is a rear yard for this property to Roma Avenue um so that does provide some safety um for future resident or current the current homeowner um and any young children or uh or pets it's not a fully enclosed fence but anything running into Roma where there's oncoming traffic it it would help prevent um we did look at the master plan um I do recognize that the zoning ordinance was recently changed um to come up with the 4T High 50% opaqueness um but part of the master plan recommendations uh that we looked at uh focused on making sure that the safety of the site triangle met and those aspects would help that a 4ot high picket fence um but what I found in some of the examples is the minute you put dense Evergreen vation vegetation that goes away so you you there are instances where there weren't even there weren't wasn't even fence on Corner properties but just thick head drow and defeats the purpose of safety so I think in this instance we're still meeting that intent of the master plan and the zoning ordinance albeit we do need relief um two fe uh an additional two feets being proposed and the the opness um with respect to special reasons for a bulk variance you look at the land use law um I do think um where advancing um purpose ey which is a desirable visual environment um this is a new fence it does it is consistent with the overall exterior of the renovated structure in terms of the two-tone gray um characteristic so I don't think it's us standing out uh in terms of the property um and it's it's an overall associated with upgrades to the overall property um in terms of the negative criteria as I mentioned the master plan intent I think we're not uh substantially impairing that um but really we are um trying to meet that intent and in this location it still provides that safe sight triangle uh and and lastly with any sort of substantial detriment to the public good uh they're more or less one and the same um kids are going to be walking along these roads to and from schools in the area um they're going to be trying to cross the crosswalk safely and they're going to need to be protected by motorists stopped at the stop bar being able to see oncoming traffic and pedestrians and that will still happen so um for that reason uh I do think it's not an impairment of the zoning ordinance because of the specific nature of the property and where the fence is located in this instance um that's my direct just one uh just one other question for you if you don't mind you mentioned uh that uh guess I'll say subsection I uh supported the requested relief uh did you identify any other uh ml Provisions that also supported yes so um was going off my rehearsal and my computer stopped but um purpose a is give guide appropriate um development uh in the state of New Jersey uh in New Jersey so um obviously that's the root view of this board um making sure that certain standards are being met recognizing the S sight triangle uh and then um the uh purpose C is to provide adequate light air and open space um so in this instance we are still providing that front yard open space along the majority of Roma Avenue as well as the full length of LX Avenue so those were two others uh when you're looking at the details again these these standards are set for large large and small site plan applications this is a very minor application for an accessory structure still has to be discussed um but that's that's the purposes that I would identify for this application thank you uh I have no further questions okay I do um so while I understand the setbacks and that line of sight is um more than adequate I do have a an issue with the height of the fence if you look in your neighborhood there's no other fence that's this High there's other fences that are 5 ft high but they have delus on top of it um so and it has come before this board before where we we consider applications um before it's instru before they're constructed um and ask for forgiveness later um and we then make those recommendations that it's a four fence Max with a one a foot of lattice on top of it um to construct this in the manner that it has been then ask for forgiveness later I I I I take exception to that because we have more orces in town that require people to do this so that this does not happen um so for me personally being a resident of this town and driving around and seeing this fence the way it was instructed or constructed and then ask for forgetness later I I just think that it's leaves a little bit um otherwise um you know I just I I'm concerned that if we allow these types of size fences to be built especially on Corner properties as visible as this area is um we're setting a precedent and I'm concerned about that and to go off what what he said real quick so they did go to sell um to before Construction existed right did they did they go to S before they constructed they didn't so they just construct cuz the fence was constructed yes without approvals okay so from what I understand they did go to S but and told they needed a variance but then decided to build the fence anyway no no no no so it was the the the notice of violation was issued after the fact okay okay I think the Chairman's comments I understand there are more comments um I every time I provide testimony there is never justification for precedent of what exists so I made that clear based on the study I provided with the photos and there there wouldn't be president setting um Beyond this uh I'm sorry what do you mean Beyond this this would not set a precedence um it do we don't agree with that because what because what we have done in the past when people have come to the board requesting the height of this fence we basically said uh no you're going to build it as such and have a foot of lattice above it so this way you don't have this uh 6ft fence um so I sort of disagree with that that that part of that testimony I i' I'd also like to add what is the required setback uh it it would be um occupied in any portion of what would be the rear yard so it would be the line continuing the side of the structure to the rear yard um I would say that those are 8 ft long um so it looks like approximately 20 ft it would have to be moved I believe the the setback is 30 ft in the R4 Zone uh for front yard setback but if with the we would all agree that if it followed along the building line we would never argue with that we would in my opinion and that would never be something that we wouldn't Grant ER over but I don't I disagree with this being a good-looking fence because it stands out and all you're seeing is a fence and it's it's doesn't seem right okay can you imagine the entire town with everyone that has that situation that wants to use more of their yard and they say well if he can do it why can't we and and this is the problem that we're talking about about precedence especially on a street that everybody's driving by it it does not look appealing to me well I have a an issue talking about setting a precedence if we go along with this who's to keep other people from putting up a fence or building something and then seeking commission that's my concern down the road we're going to ride with could ride around town and see six and 8ot fences everywhere and then someone would come and say well I need a variance for it I I already spent you know $122,000 to put it in I believe you said it wasn't within your perview to address that but is there a reason that nobody bothered to get a uh permit I came after the fact on that issue so like I can just represent the applicant didn't go get a permit and obviously he should have done so you know and that's why we are before the board um you know I I have no you know nothing to add other than you know it obviously should have been done and I I think everyone is aware of that the applicant is aware of that now um should have been then um I know he has spoke to S about it after and then you know once the denial was issued said we would take the application to the board uh to try to get the relief that he sought and so here we are um you know I understand the board's concerns about other similar offenses going up I would just add you know every application does stand on its own at the same point I understand your overarching concern but I would just add from a from that point of view that every application that comes before the board obviously is judged on this its own independent nits absolutely um I just think aesthetically it's an eyesore on the corner of uh ltic c m it just I don't know how they F I will say this is probably the newest fence in at least 2 years on any of the corner properties that I've looked to so I looked at the nine intersections and most of them were uh older and wood U just I tell I could counteract that by saying to you if you drive down Lincoln Avenue on a corner Lincoln and harson that applicant came to us before he constructed and we worked together to line of sight issues out of their driveway and the height of that fence and we did not allow them to go any higher than what they have yeah that that was one of the intersections I I understand but what I'm saying to you is that if if someone comes in front of the board there is past experiences that came before the board and that worked with the applicant to determine what was uh aesthetically pleasing to the neighborhood person as as a member did say that this is a very large fence and have intersection anybody else on the board will y um the other issue that you haven't addressed is that Roma Avenue is not a straight line road it's on a curve correct and there are quite a few children uh Middle School elementary as well as high school students that use the street to go back and forth and the line of site is is really important here because some little people are crossing that street and with this size fence you cannot see them especially if you're on the Curve I would just submit I think that our planner did testify to the effect to the his testimony obviously speaks for itself but did testify to the line of sight and that there is a clear line from one intersection straight the name's escaping house is a general comp from one intersection straight down to the other that it actually by virtue of the curve in the road there it actually works the advantage of the property in terms of being able to see from one intersection to The Other M I believe I disagree with you issue but the site that you see it's it's basically if this neighbor can do this you've got everybody in this town driving by saying well that's where I want to put my fence they want to use as much of the yard as possible that's common okay but when the person bought this house they would have known what the setbacks are they would have known what the guidelines are and made it should have made that decision of what they're willing to pay for a property that's on a corner that's part of the decision that you made when you're buying the property that it has some limits and so I I just can't support having this fence all the way out to the road if if if it was going to be uh you know along the line of sight of the where the structure is that for me but I can't speak for the rest that to me is something that but then even there this is the only 6ot fence that we're seeing in that immediate area that that I'm aware of that's right on the front of like this this much fence it's one thing I think it was only like 10t you know but so to to that point and I don't want to speak for the rest of the board but is that understanding some of the comments that are coming from the board is that something that the board would be more amendable to or is that just one comment which is fine obviously but I'm thinking that the height of the fence is is also an issue yes yeah and it's going to be an issue in in going forward with Town's people seeing that this board approved a height that is not part of the ordinance um and then there's going to be an onslaught of um um requests or why did you allow this to happen we have a responsibility to the towns people and that's why you guys are here as well you're here on that behalf of your applicant however we are res we are uh representing our Town's people number one for the height of defense is is like has been brought up here is very high number two is that then we're going to set a president that it's going to be allowed or then just construct it and then they'll just wave it I'm very concerned of how this whole process went with this property so I'm not quite sure what you're what you're asking is it something that we would consider um that's going to be something that you know Bas you're going to have to make those determinations based on what you're hearing from the board um so it's been part of our practic is that we only allow certain Heights on side yards at on fences or certain height on side yards um but uh uh you know that's something that you would have to consider can we take five minutes to speak 5 minutes two meeting back to order just want to bring to your attention um your 200 foot notice appears to be sufficient green card is sufficient um this burn stock uh is within 200 feet did not receive it but that doesn't change fact notice is good that's come to our attention she's going to recuse steep down not going to be participating in this because of that um she so correct you'll be leaving the room now okay we not be participating okay so then I I guess so just to be clear then the board will not consider any of the comments from uh Miss B that is correct [Music] okay should you are Contin oh okay sorry okay um all right so we had a chance to speak with our client um we'd like to try to work with the board here understanding that what transpired obviously should not have um the extent the fence remains in its location my client is able to it takes effort but obviously can shave the fence down to a height of 4 ft and then put the lattice up there which you had described the fence as being I guess 5T in total but four plus the lattice section U my client would be willing to do that if the fence could remain in the spot obviously they'll they'll have to shave work with that but that's definitely something he could do I I don't think that changes the sight of where the fence is that's to me is I think is what really makes it stand out and in terms of what the neighborhood looks like I mean you look at the town and you look at front yards and you look at postcards you know it's it's not the look that you want to have in the town that's what we're here to to basically enforce as as what the town wants and I don't see that as the look that the town is is looking for because imagine that on every single house I gu so it's so it's still the concern would be with the height cuz the location of the fence is from sidewalk but it's not actually there's no uh uh variance requested for that if you're going with a 4ot fence that's open I think that this would be more of a less of a conversation here just saying four feet just if it was fouret in this location just like you see in the picture that you have of your neighbor right across the street in I understand what you're then there's no I don't think argue with that well then I guess and I don't mean to but then at that point then we're not oh I guess we all for the board right so yes you're right but so I guess going back to my original understanding it's not something uh that that certain members are in favor of though as a the extent the rest of the board and I don't know if that's up for consideration if if the board's not amendable to that then then well what we would do then is we would then present your application um for a vote and based on that vote uh it would either be approved or denied that would be something that you would have to tell us if that's what how you want toce see no I understood I just didn't know if there were any additional oh comments yeah I think he might want to know before he asked for vot there's any other thoughts of the other members with no commitment on what they would do but and they don't have to they're not you're not obligated and so it like that wasn't out this far that's what I'm saying I mean then it would be explain to the applicant what you're asking please what I don't know yeah one sec one second one second one second hold on could someone open that door got be open to the public me not to me but what if you took out two of the panels that are going um horizontally this way and brought the fence in so that there were was less less fence on Roma Avenue but you still have the whole backyard do you know what I'm saying I'm trying to cut out half of the backyard uh in this instance the other half is the driveway to the detached deck so oh so the other half yeah that's unique things about this backyard is the reason and why I cited other instances um there's other reasons to occupy more rear yard space one of these homes has a pool in in another example um it just it becomes a balance between actually trying to get a rear yard so in this case part of that backyard on this property is unique that it's it's a driveway area that extense um so we did discuss um moving the location of of the fence post which um we should make make clear a fence can exist in this area uh it's just the height and the opaqueness so I think it is obviously there's concerns about the visual nature of it but in terms of where it exists it's it's designed to trying to provide some but the visual problem is because of the opaqueness and the size of the fence so I was trying to get rid of one of those things by moving it over but I understand what I I think in two two aspects to consider are the fact that you don't even need a fence you can put up dense vegetation that's going to grow 10 15 ft and not need any relief from this board and cre create a unique circumstance that detracts from the sight triangle right so in this instance this proposed fence is not doing that and also allows for that visual safety at the intersection um the proposed change I think works it it's not redigging new posts but it's lowering the fence height um to try and be more consistent and the one photo at uh figure three 202 Lakeside is is the same proposal it's a 4 foot um this is a wooden variety but it's 4ot with a 1 foot uh La so um when that idea came out um I think by the chairman uh it did remind me of that prop that that existing condition elsewhere in the in the neighborhood um so if if it helps for a visual representation that's what it would be lower and and believe me a one foot change in a fence height is a substantial change it it most eyes I everyone has different height but you typically have a a Viewpoint of of about um 5T 5 in so if you're coming down to 5 ft that average most people are called that's just plus plus you're getting the uh the foot of at 4T to 5T so that the visual the visual aspects of it isov def fence being 3 ft in from the sidewalk is not an issue correct yeah correct it's the he um it is a concern but it's not a but it's not violation right not only 4 foot and 50% correct and we're not talking about that we're talking about you're saying 4T that's straight and only one foot above it that's open and that's a very different and now I don't know whether or not this was done before the ordinance or whether this was actually even permitted um so did did you do any research on that on any defenses you Prov I did not pull building permit vation property um I I think the other thing to consider for this board is we aren't here asking you to change the zoning ordinance we're asking you here to understand our uh application the justification that we've found to benefit to to justify the flexible standard right and that's a flexible standard that this board can grant where you're identifying the benefits of the application over the detriments of this particular property so again um the benefits are a substantial step back from lenx it is trying to secure the rear yard of this property it's consistent with several other Corner properties that are equally having fences in that rear yard portion um we are proposing to modify the height and the design to work with the board um and again the negative sides are really truly the site triangle that's this is however substantial we're not sure that that property that you depicted in your picture has been permitted so you may be asking us to consider something that is not and you're not responsible we are now because now we have to find out in my opinion if that property was permitted to build that fence oh how long that I I don't think it's that long ago if I may I did speak to my client you know although he believes four feet plus the one foot of lattice is actually more visually appealing he would be willing to drop it to just four it would stay as the opaque um but he'd be willing to do that but there was a thought that the lattice adds [Music] some makes it nicer I couldn't think of a better adjective so you're getting nicer um but we willing to do just for um but again I I don't know if the board feels more favorably about that Dr losing that extra foot or losing the lattice portion ask the lawyer uh Andrew a question how do we go about finding out that not to make this applicant um so that we understand that if that was permitted CU I I don't remember that coming before the board and I've been on the board quite a bit of time um I don't remember that coming before the board are we considering this got two thoughts on um they're not they're the reason they're pointing to this is not that it's been permitted they're saying it doesn't have a dead impact on the neighborhood because other things that are there like it that you allowed to be there that so that's that's it whether whe it's permitted or not is kind of a mve point they're saying it's there it doesn't it kind of looks like the other stuff on the other side when one of the thoughts you had before about this doesn't set a precedent but what it does is for the same reason they're showing you pictures of this the next applicant would show you pictures of Defense that's being asked for now yeah but but it doesn't really matter whether it's per permitted or not it's there and so that is what the neighborhood looks like but if it was illegal and it should be torn down it's it's a valid point because then this property is in violation and we would not have approved that either potentially because of where it is and and and basically it you know what I mean you're trying to compare the applicant's property to their property so so I'm not sure if if this is a you can make the Nuance of them saying it does not it does not negatively impact the neighborhood cuz look there's other stuff in there you can look take a Nuance View that book book of that if you have familiarity and you want to ask how that yes we don't if you want to we don't agree because you're pointing to other situations which aren't permitted are are illegally existing and I don't know that to be the case they might might be permitted but that is a legitimate that would be a legitimate response to the testimony hey St changing your neighborhood sorted down it' be it would if in fact that was an illegally construct a fence that shouldn't be there anyway it shouldn't work to the detriment of the neighborhood and you say well it's up there anyway so it doesn't make a change if it's not supposed to be there if that if you understand like you can have that nuanced approach to the testimony that was given it is a legitimate question so what I'm trying to propose and what you provided in figure five okay the photo that you have here you can see the fence line is is probably 10 to 15 ft away from the street from the curb I don't know the exact amount um I I would suggest I mean in terms of understanding and listening to everything at the at the very least and I can only speak for minut is that one panel should be removed if you're not going with a 4 foot open fence and you're trying to get something that's in the 5ot range with with the opening or even 4ot uh fence but you got to bring this fence back in in terms of what I see in the neighborhood in terms of what I see that's appealing and what's not appealing this to me the closeness and it may not have been noticeable in another location it's there and there are instances that we've had in the town where a person had um on dois Highway for example okay they had two uh front yards uh but one of them's on a road where there's no houses there it's just rare situations that we've had but this one is not rare this is not anything other than trying to utilize space now there are other things the applicant can do if they want more yard they don't have to have the garage all the way where they have it I mean you know I'm sorry but there are other things that this applicant can do to have as much yard as any this is a pretty good size property here 75 by 150 they got plenty of yard uh but they got to get rid of that much driveway that's another opportunity that's another way that they can go about getting more yard space in fact one thing to just point out um in figure five it's deceiving with the yard because there's no sidewalk just poing that out there there is quite a distance from the current applications existing fence where it is now in the curve um so that's a little bit of a difference from this current location again we're not objecting the curve and we're about three ft step back from the curve so um we're we're I would say approximately um 9 ft from the curve line given the 3 ft the curb itself and the other side of it if you look in in figure one so just pointing that out that it might be a little with I was just using this as an example something more visually appealing so I'm I'll point that out just say and and that that fence would need a relief for the opaqueness because it's board on board so we would still need that that relief as well we don't or Fe we don't know we can't speak for that Pence if it was proposed today uh it would need variance relief for being in the front yard and not being 50% open appearance so so um are there any other statements questions from the board for the applicate and any arguments about what surrounding area fenes look like is going to your point that it's de facto setting a precedent people use it as an example yes you are every time okay so like I said I guess you know I would offer the applicant is willing to make it 4 feet um you know with that just flat four feet um to leave it in its current location I understand there's the comment to I guess eliminate one panel which I guess is roughly 3T I believe it's 6et one panel 6ot F right okay oh true yes um you know it's the applicant's design you know it would be a desire to leave the fence and have it be four feet um if the board feels strongly about you know cutting a section off I can speak to my client about that but you know the preference would be you know modify it take it down two feet and leave it as in its location so at this point we need to open up to go do we comment on on that or do we uh allow the public to would think that it would be best for you go to the public to know what you're kind of going to be going forward with for the applicant to get a sentence so they've kind of proposed amending their application for it to be 4 feet in height same location and I think they're informally hoping that uh there would be some individual comments from the board members on how they would feel about that Amendment because then you then the public knows what it's commenting on I would agree okay thank you Mr folks from the board I would I would have to uh coincide with Frank that removing one animal would be more pleasingly acceptable see bring it down to 4 feet it's definitely got to come down to fouret so just so I understand if it's brought down 4T the only variance remaining that is the 50% versus 100% yes correct I'm Frank I'm going to say take a pan off that fence take SE off that 6ot back yeah and lower all right Mike I'm okay with the four uh two ft being taken off and leaving it in the same position leaving in the same position yeah leaving it in the same position dropping it to four feet correct not taking the panel back and okay no cuz the set back from the curb to the fence line now is not an issue right correct that's a true Point not for an opaque fence it's not an issue it's not an issue right and you look at the neighborhood and you look at the neighbors anyone that's got it right up to the line is a picket fence open right not even what he pointed out was a 4 foot fence with the allad on top I think you have your uh feedback from the board okay okay uh can you give me just one moment absolutely I spoken to my client I think in in Le of pressing forward for the variance relief my Cent has opted to whether however he goes about it but to either remove the fence entirely or just make it a 4ot picket or 50% whatever term you want to use picket fence or otherwise um so to that extent I I I don't know how the board wants to proceed but we would withdraw the request for the variance relief um and proceed as such like I said either removing the fence entirely or augmenting the fence so it it is uh code compliant I'll just say that so you do nothing they withdrawing the application the board would take no action corre and then um uh and then I'll communicate with S as to what trans or obviously the board may as well but I'll also uh advise him of what occurred and what my client intends on doing with the F okay thank you where you come back she oh no there there's a green card that got sent to her house so they did everything right just remember getting that doesn't matter they they sent it so they're good with notice the she so is be timeline for them to make this change that's up the South up South enfor they pul they pulled the application right so there's nothing more we need to do the the timeline is enforcement they are not they have an illegally has to be happy that they're teing that that's up the sou get out there no fence there okay so Dave yes you okay yeah okay thank you no problem okay uh so now we're going to move on to U resolution bo8 24-6 rich and Linda at 104 popular Avenue uh in palmton Lakes everyone had the opportunity to read the resolution yep yes yep everybody had any comments or questions or Corrections on the app on the resolution none can I get a motion to accept that resolution I'll make a motion to [Laughter] accept I have a roll call please B and current or current and B B and Curr got it Mr Hunt yes Mr aate yes M Curran yes Mr C yes Miss bernstock yes Mr Rowan yes Mr Bag yes Mr uh Fula yes and Mr devanti yes new unfinished business uh Jared's not here for Open Space Mr Mayor can you comment on anything about open space yeah was very un we had the engineer there so we are we approved the open space committee approved to bring to the Cil to move the Open Space Project at little field to call for a vote from the council to for PL so if you're not familiar with the plans that means moving the t-ball fields from where they are to kind of where the old senior Field parking lot was closing off that whole right side replanting the t-ball Fields with trees closing off the snack stand at the front of the snack stand so no traffic now goes through past the snack stand and it would be a new SE uh senior girls and boys field in the old uh house where the house was at the corner of the park um there's still questioning if we're going to put uh there was play to put a swing set in there and a walking path around the hole outside that's questionable on the cost but most that cor is is open space County money $540,000 is open space County money um that we have to use and if we don't use it they're going to take it back can I ask a question regarding the playground that's a flood plane down there Ain it yeah they going to allow that yeah we we we've gotten the permits from the DP that allowed us to do all these things but it's a cost thing now because it's been going on so long the total plan with the playground and the walkway it's around 860 880 so we would have to come up with 300 um so that's a discussion the council will have to decide what they want to do but the open space committee is has voted unanimously by way to move it to the council to vote on awesome that's good news and the bridge oh down at hfield is that way out still they're a year behind on the uh on the project they're hoping to do it this summer I don't see it happening but we know we have to work on summer camp and all those things right right so um if it's not this spring it would probably be the following spr but so again if the board's not familiar we have a big plan in place down in herfield park again with open space funds to replace the building itself uh with new bathrooms and a new Upstairs Downstairs building that's going to look like uh at Onex kind of building with the Big Stone uh new exercise equipment for seniors on the Walking path new walking paths new playground all these things are going to happen down at her parking stages the last stage would be the uh swing sets and things but we can't do that and the paving of the of walkways which are in great horrible shape but we can't do that till they put the bridge so that's the problem because the bridge is one piece it's coming in as one piece and that could bring big footings on both ends to do that okay thank you anything else appreciate it do you want to bring up a b historic Mike oh you can you're up there uh the state of New Jersey recognized the Pompton lak syst commission gave us a nice plaque of all the historic Commissions in the state we got the plaque that's awesome um they recognized Architects Engineers anyone who took part in preserving or restoring a historic property and they picked one historic commission which was us and there was a nice uh banquet at uh hinch lift Stadium I keep forgetting there there's no seeing there uh last Thursday and Laura Jennings has just done a phenomenal job with the story that's awesome good Stu good good so we got to tell the state all about our great town good good um so I will open up the meeting to the public anyone from the public like to have come forward and talk Mr Cruz you have anything you would like to uh no I was just checking so I will close the public session can I get a motion for adjournment so move everyone have a great Thanksgiving thank you Happy Thanksgiving Christmas we will not see each other until the new year is it not a fun night your