Richie City Council workshop 18 to stands nation indivisibley and justice for M roll please. >> Mayor John Eric Hoover >> here. >> Vice Mayor Chris Mayer >> here.
>> Councilman Robert Huard who's going to be absent today, correct? >> Yes. >> Let the record show that Councilman Robert Hubard is absent from today's meeting. Councilwoman Lisa Burke >> here. >> Councilwoman Christine Sullivan >> here. >> City Attorney Nancy Meyer
>> here. City Manager, Andrew Butterfield. Let the record show that our city manager, Andrew Butterfield, is absent from today's meeting. >> Thank you. Okay, first up is comments from the general public. Uh, open up the comments. There's no public here. Nobody online, I believe. So, we'll bring that back to the council. Comments from city
manager. He's also absent. So, we'll move right along to council business. Item number one, amendments to the Port Mercy sign code. Um, last time we last two times we've gotten all the way down to 121 through 12114. And so we'll go down to page 33 in the
packets and we'll pick back up where we left off at 12115 which is enforcement. Uh, let's see. So violations of chapter curves exist talks about the fines and penalties. Look like there's a red line here. So we
got uh we reference article two of chapter one of the city code >> which is where the citation citation would be and and we want to take the take out what was there before because as we pivot to special magistrate that
got you. Okay. Uh failing of city to force inquires the chapter is not constitute a waiver of city right to enforce chapter respect that violation official Disney. Okay. So anybody see anything with that? >> No, I think it looks good.
>> Okay. So move on to 12116 signed permits. [Music] So Nancy, I know we I think 121 was it 1214 that we skipped? No, it's let's see was 1214. There was something about
let's see 1214 was which we skipped for now with certain signs exempt from permits and so these this is talking about the actual permitting process for the signs. Right. Right. And so this would apply across all signs
unless it was in 1214. It seems like these seem like it should have this first and maybe the we >> talked about that last time that you re reorganized. >> Yeah. Maybe take that out, roll everything up and then like 1216 be sign permits and then 12117
>> be exempt. Yeah. >> So or could you maybe roll that into >> I would keep it separate. >> It's distinct and easy to tell you know which section you're dealing with. Okay. Do you have a question, Chris? >> I do. Permits 12116A.
Um, no person shall erect assist in the erection, construction, maintenance. Now, help me understand that, Veronica, if you will. Maintenance of a sign. I need to get a signed permit to maintain my sign. >> Oh, >> that's what it says. >> Yeah, we probably should strike
maintenance. >> Yeah, >> because you're going to change the lighting or something like that. I mean, you maintain signs all the time, but every five or six years, they look like garbage and you got to redo the plastics and you got to put new lights and do all that stuff. And I I don't think you should need a permit to maintain your sign.
>> Well, it depends. So, if you're maintaining a sign and you're doing electrical work or you're refacing it, you would need a permit. But the actual maintenance, if you're cleaning it, if you're uh you know painting it, things
of that nature, it wouldn't require anything. >> So if >> says repair of here, so maintenance would be separate from >> Let me give you an example. If I had a sign that had colored letters, let's just say they were ABCD
letters and they were individually encapsulated and they the faces of those were colored and I needed to over five or six years they fade >> that UV used to be analogous. >> I'm going to go and replace them with the exact same letter. I'm going to put
the same plexiglass whatever it is they use Lexan or whatever back in there. Do I need a permit to replace the faces with the exact same faces? Um technically yes tech yes now a building official at that
time can say you know what let me see the scope of what you're doing and then at that point he may say you know what it's considered maintenance you don't need it generally for signs when people are maintaining them they don't come in we don't see them it's not a problem it's only when they're changing out the
types of lights or they're refacing the surface the you know the sign boards things like that that's where it gets where they would need a permit. >> I I would suggest we strike maintenance completely. >> Now, give me a little walk through on
repair. Okay. So, there's a storm. It blows the blows the plastic, you know, out of my sign. And I go back to the sign shop, say, "Hey, man. Your your sign blew out my parking lot." And he makes another one just like it. Puts
it right back in. Do I need a permit for that? Uh, no. >> Okay. So, we could pull repair it out. >> Yeah. You you mentioned electrical and from a house perspective, if if my outlet goes bad, I can replace my outlet without getting a permit.
>> You can replace the outlet the receptacle cover, but you can't replace the wiring. >> Well, you can replace the receptacle as well. >> You can replace the receptacle, which is >> you just can't run a new circuit. >> Correct. So, so that's I really don't
see that there's any maintenance or repair >> validation. >> Yeah. As long as you're not changing anything. You're just fixing it or, you know, sprucing it up or whatever. I don't think we need that language in here for >> I mean, we're hoping and praying that these people out here in the city cuz some of these signs look like they've
been there since 1962 and they haven't done anything at all. And a guy that goes out there, makes his sign look beautiful like the way it was, you know, maintains it. I think we should probably just strike both those things out of there. It's my opinion. Nancy, any issues you see? >> Anybody? >> That's what they see and what they would
require is what they >> So, by consensus, I think let's strike uh strike maintenance and repair off. >> And with respect to you, Veronica, and your department, you already said that we're not really getting applications for that stuff anyway. And you're not going out there and looking around for
it either. So, why would we have code? >> But the code says you're supposed to. So, we need to take it out. >> That That's Hold on. That's what I'm talking about. You're right. That's what I think. I think the the conversation is what you had. What does maintenance mean for the building department and do you need a permit for that? The answer is well no
>> unless you're going to do more extensive more of a repair maybe to repair too. But you get my gist. If what they expect >> j with removing those I think >> yeah because technically you got official in here that or code force that drives around sees you painting your
signed pole could flag stop work on you because of this code right here. >> I mean after the storm all those all those faces blew out in the middle of the parking lot you know. Not because [Music] the rest. Okay. Uh so they they've got 30 days to
uh complete. Is that standard across building permits? >> That's floor statue. >> 30 days. >> 30 days. >> That seems like a long time. But >> 30 days for what? I'm sorry. >> To get get the permit approved >> under so you guys have 30 days to
approve it. Okay. doesn't take 30 days, does it? No, I didn't think so. >> I think that just gives you enough time. >> The next one seems long to me. The timeations 90 90 days or six months to do something then two 90day extensions.
>> That seems long. >> Six months, right? So, that that's the same as all all permits. They're good for 6 months and if you need extension you get 90 days twice, right? >> I think that's reasonable, don't you? >> Not more than 90 days. >> Okay.
>> So it generally he gives 30 days depends on the building official but not more than 90 days. >> And actually it doesn't specify how many you can continue extending 90 days in perpetuity. Does it >> probably just happen to get communication right or more? >> Here's what we're doing. Yeah. one or more extensions.
>> Not more than 90 days. >> I think that's fine. Like I said, everybody has circumstances. There might be things happen. >> Um, time to click. So this red edition issuance sign permit
is construction permit code and the issuance of one does not satisfy the permit requirements of the other. >> My guess is that's from um attorney Ashenfelder that that is the situation he has seen and so they're addressing it so people don't have any misunderstanding.
So that mean you you couldn't have a permit that includes a sign and something else? No, >> it's just saying if you if you if the way I read this, if you get a sign permit, but you're al also getting some other permits for some other kind of be separate. >> They're going to be separate permit request
permit and your remodel permit. It's got to be two separate >> and you know, I'm sure you've seen this. Well, you approved my sign permit so I can do construction. Well, no, it's two different things and that's just making sure that's understood. >> Vice versa. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. Understood. I guess. Does it mean yes to everything
necessarily? >> Okay, that's fine. So relation of the permits, no permit for any on-site sign shall be issued by the city until a building permit or development permit has been issued for the establishment to which it relates. >> That doesn't make sense.
>> I would remove them because we don't do that. I mean, if you're if someone applies for a sign permit ahead of their construction, we don't deny it. >> What if there's no construction? >> Yeah. What if there's no construction? >> Why would you put a sign? >> Uh, to give you an example,
>> if you're going to have a >> something's coming. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We wouldn't deny somebody the the opportunity to put a sign out. >> Well, that's what it says, though. You can't issue the permit until they have some other development plan. >> Yeah. We've never >> Maybe you're going to have a storage lot
and you're just going to put a sign up says storage here, right? Um but you're not doing development >> or or how about in a a pre-existing building where it's like turnkey ready. You move in and you're not going to have a permit. You're just going to like move
your stuff in there and then you're going to act. You can get a signed permit for that. >> I don't know if that building permit or a construction permit at that point. >> I don't know if that would apply here because you already have something there. That's different. I mean, you could probably loosely tie it to that, but I think that what what the intent
here is if you're it's a brand new site, you can't just throw your sign up without building something. >> Doesn't say a new site. It says on any site. >> Well, I'm saying that, but there's not necessar development on existing building, right? So, let's say let's say you bought a >> That's my point. There's going to be no
development. There's going to be no building permit. Then, you get a signed permit. For example, let's say that there's a McDonald's out there and Burger King buys it. They keep everything the same. They swap the sign out to Burger King. This would prevent that because there's But I don't I don't think the intent
here is to do that. I think it's if it's new stuff, but I'm inclined to remove it. >> You say not to. >> No, she said to remove it. She wants >> Oh, I thought you said keep it. >> I thought you said don't remove it.
>> Well, let's strike G then. that >> he just wants to take a contrary position. Anything you say? >> That's what I That's what I heard. Not you. >> I'm gonna play the tape. I thought she said don't remove that.
>> No, I heard her say don't. Let me I'm rephrase. You just assume she's saying that's right. >> I heard you. That's right. So, she is gone. >> She's gone. >> Thank you for that, Brian. I should listen more closely next time.
>> That's why we were struggling, Veronica, just so you know. It's because we all heard something different. >> I was wondering why everyone I was surprised. I think they wanted to keep it. I'm like, this is >> No. Well, I mean, I the the intent of that was I don't think was like I said, if it was building already there, it was
like a totally new development, but >> you could loosely tie that to anything. >> Okay. So, that finished. Anything else on 1616? >> No, we're I'm ready to go. >> 1217. This is all new stuff, right? Yeah. All new stuff coming down now. So,
right of appeal. Uh, so this is interesting. So, if if the administrative appeal is filed with applicant and the board fails to meet within 45 days, the appeal will be deemed denied. I would think it'd be the opposite. >> It would be if the board failed to meet within 45 days, the appeal should be approved. >> Exactly. They've gone the
Well, aren't we incumbent to give due process here, right? >> I just I don't like I want your your board needs to if your board's not meeting, you obviously have to address that issue. Your board needs to meet so everyone gets to process including the city. >> But but we have a lot >> the city gets processed too. We have we
I agree but we have a lot of problems in government right now where government fails to fulfill its obligation and the penalties put onto the the business owner andor consumer and and it's the government's responsibility to get that together to go. >> Yeah. Let me ask you this. When it talks
about board I'm assuming this is talking about >> adjustment. This is adjust >> for adjustment. So right now, >> okay, we put in there that it would if if they fail me within 45 days, it rolls the next council agenda. >> I was gonna say, can you add counsel in there?
>> Also, we could we could um >> we can we can special magistrate might be an option. That's something we're going to be talking about. Um so we might want to give it multiple options. Um you the board can't meet. >> I like your idea. Roll from the Sorry. >> No, that's fine. That's fine. roll from
the board of adjustments to city council because if if something happens and the board of adjustments doesn't meet, we've got people up here that have been elected people that are at stake in the community and we can or whoever's here at the time. >> And don't we don't we um
>> oversee the decisions of board adjustment anyway. >> So they're final. >> No, they're final. Well, for variance, they're final. There might be some things that you that depending on the depending on the the municipality, there are some things that board of adjustment could then come to
the the council. I don't know if there's anything here currently that do that. >> Yeah, I don't like it automatically being approved, but I I do want to make sure that things continue to tick. So if we bring to council after that next most
uh maybe not next agenda but uh >> because at the bottom it says no right of appeal to city council at the bottom of that >> uh >> such determination shall be conclusive and no right of city council with respect to such action exist.
So you have to take that out. Yeah, >> it might be better and and I mean it can go either way, but maybe you do have a special magistrate for this town. You have a contract with two different people. So maybe for the better idea would be to leave it with board of
adjustment for now. They can't meet it goes to special magistrate. >> I don't agree. >> You don't agree? >> I don't agree. >> Why? >> Because special magistrate what what are they going to know about our town or what we do here? Well, that's application law. >> Yeah, it's applic it's it's you have a
you have an you have a process. It's just like a variance variance. There's 10 criteria. Do you meet them? Do you not meet them? That's all that's what special magistrates do every day. That's what they're they're >> so being in a quasi judicial uh capacity when they do this. So, actually a
special magistrate would probably even be a better decision maker because they have a law background as opposed to >> Yes. They're what usually >> that's what they do. >> So, we're going to take out the city. >> We make the law. So if you if you don't like for instance if you don't like what the appeal process is legislative we could change what those criteria and all
that is but the application thereof all we would be doing would be applying that we couldn't make any >> do we have a special magistrate at this point we talked about >> yes we have you have a contract with two different people but right that right now we're doing your light camera hearings >> oh good that's new right
>> I think it's I think it's still going on but since I've been here we now have contracts with those people Um it's always been done before. Yeah. That you've had the magistrate but without the written documentation. >> So you have that now but this last time um when Matt was still here when they
reuped the contract we added um code enforcement. >> Okay. There we go. That has that been enacted? >> Not yet. >> No. That's a conversation you guys are going to be having. Okay. >> Um and there and the language might be broad enough that it could capture this or we would want to tweak that contract and and capture this some an appeal like
this also that they could hear. So, what do we do to fix this to make it say what you want to say? Take care of it. Okay. >> If if you're good with the idea of bringing a special magistrate after the 45 days. Um, >> and then that's final. >> Yeah. And that's final. >> Okay. So, we don't string them along, right?
>> Yeah. >> Because if it came to us, we'd just be we'd be applying law as written >> and it would be an interpretated version of law. It always happens when a group like us gets together. We interpret the law the way we see it. Makes sense. >> Right. But we you can't you gota there's
criteria there you got >> understand there's always >> well there's there's some interpretation sure but it's >> I wish it was as simple as >> the goal is is be as less interpretation as possible >> these meetings it requires a little more >> right >> interpretation
you good Yep. Got it. >> Question. >> Can we move the 45 days to 30 days? >> Isn't there a timeline requirement for that though for notice and everything? >> It's 30 days. >> Well, I I
>> the only problem is let's say the board of adjustment just met and they would I mean if they're on a 30-day cycle or whatever you can shorten it but >> yeah they can meet quicker than that it just gives us the outside number. Um so I wouldn't want to shorten it. Um but
yeah the goal would be to get it there as quickly as we could. >> What's describe B a little bit. So any person must follow her his or >> B is the law. If um building official denies the permit, you go, let's say the board of adjustment or a special
magistrate, they uphold the building officials determination. That person who is agreed can sue in circuit court. >> Okay? >> In theory, cities can also sue in circuit court if they feel like they're the ones agreed, but you don't usually do that >> in this situation. >> And and this may be silly, but uh her
his or can we just change it to their >> where we or a >> any agree? Yeah, exactly. You know, I don't I don't think they would even call out all these different pronouns >> anywhere else in the codes. >> That's the drafter. Yes, I agree. I can fix that. >> Somebody was trying to be really
politically correct there. >> Very correct. >> Did you see the warehouse? Let's go back to that. Very very correct. >> Yeah. Okay. Anything else on on that? >> Okay. Move on section 1218 variances.
Uh this is a quickie. Not saying this code. The only variance that may be applied for from the board adjustment connection size in the city is a variance from required setbacks. >> What are some other instances that could come up? >> Size.
>> Well, of course, but something remember the point of a variance is a hardship that you did not create. So that's so if you think about it setbacks definitely is not something that you necessar you know you the property is a strangely um shaped property the setbacks take up
more room I need you know to go a foot out further to make the sign be seen that would be a hardship that maybe you didn't create that might meet all the criteria for a variance um do you think others qualify >> the height depending on where you're
located >> we're not really we're not really you know hilly Um, >> well, let's say you got trees around or something that is you >> you would I I think that you that's I don't think that would fit, but that but if you want to include it, that would be
the criteria for the board to consider. >> I mean, do you do you need to lock down >> various request? >> I don't think we need to. >> Well, then you're going to get a bunch that don't qualify and it's going to take time and money and staff time and it's up to you guys. I mean, that that's
>> Do they have to pay for that, Nancy? >> Yes, >> it's a fee. Yeah, they have to pay. I don't know how much it is, but they pay something to >> I mean, I think everybody's entitled to say, "Hey, this doesn't fit in the box." >> 500. >> That's pretty heavy. So, they got to put and if they lose, they you keep the money, right? I think we strike that all together. I think let them let them
apply for a variance. >> You got to keep in mind that that fee is not only for staff time. It's that has to be publicized. Certified letters have to be mailed out. It's not >> Nancy that in two hours just getting here. So, >> yeah. So
>> we don't have to have Nancy send the certified letters, do we? >> And keep in mind the publication in the newspaper can be $450 in itself. >> So those are costly. Those are not cheap. >> So that the certified mail is $847 each letter.
>> Um so it >> we're not going to make any money on it. That's >> And you're mailing those to all surrounding properties. >> Let me ask you a question. How many of those have you done in the last two years? >> Variances. Yeah, >> variances. In my 15 years here, I've maybe done a handful. Okay? >> Specifically because most times they
don't. It doesn't mean a hardship. It's just because they want. >> It's not because they can't do it. It's not that they can't comply because the the the property is angled differently. It's because they want >> taking away the variance process.
>> Well, so this is my question. So the variance process is still very clear on that. This is actually further restricting it to just this specific request, >> right? >> And saying you can't do any other request of any type.
>> I mean, I would I I would want to have the option to do that if it if I had a hardship for something other than can't what it was, but I don't know why we would lock it down. What's your thoughts? >> I think you strike the whole thing.
striking. >> It's only a little handful she's dealt with in 15 years. So, it's not like it's this big problem. >> You know, you seem >> No, apprehensive. >> I think it's just inviting and maybe not. You're you're I mean, you're you're changing the sign code to hopefully um promote more
>> upgrading and use and you know, beautifification. I think it's going to >> possibly bring out more work for your building department who's already working very hard for var variance requested do not qualify. Yeah, >> in this particular situation, setback's probably the only thing that would >> Do we have the ability to increase that
from $500 to $800? >> Yeah, you can you can change your permit fees. >> So, strike that and increase the permit fee for a variance for a sign to $800. So, if we're not making if there's not enough money there to advertise it and do the postage and all that stuff, put enough money in there to make it work.
>> We can look at that. >> One thing we're dealing with right now, and I'm sure you folks are dealing with it. I'm dealing with it. I just paid a $540 parking bill over at Tampa Airport. I pulled out I was expecting like 300 bucks and I was like 540. Everybody on the planet is charging more for stuff right now, you know. So for us to think
about that is a whole another issue. It's costing us more for employees, insurance and everything else. We need to increase everything as well. I'm not saying I want to whack everybody over the head, but in a case like this where they're going to require us to jump through hoops and do lots of things for them. If 500 bucks doesn't cover the budget, then we should think about upping that fee.
>> She said that >> that's something that's going to be coming before Andy. We've discussed it. briefly in the past. Our fee schedules are rather low from what we're seeing being charged now. We're It's not that the city's trying to make money off of these projects, off of these things, but
we're not even a we're having the city is having to pay for things because like I said, the publication alone, depending on the time a week you publicize it could we've had it as high as $640 a publication and we're only collecting $450 on an application. We're not even
covering half of what we need to do. We still have to, >> you know, >> it's been that rate for years. >> Yeah. And so, well, the last time we did it was in 2021. So, that's something that really needs to be look, it should be looked at every five years and go through all of our fees and everything we're charging, you know, permit fees
every six months, but different things like this, it should be looked at every five years because we we we tend to fall behind on that stuff. But yes, you're right. The fees have gone. You guys going to be bringing that to us? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, sound like we're going to handle that soon.
>> So, we don't need to mess with that right now. >> Yeah. Well, we wouldn't do it here anyway, but unless we make a specific variance fee for >> for some, we can address that then when it comes forward. I'm good with that. So, strike this and then we'll address it feasely. Yes, sir. >> Got it. >> All good that.
>> Okay. Once we 19, do we need anything for variances in in the code then? Just leave it all. Do we need reference variances handled based on the other? >> I'll check. We may want to say it's handled per reference. Yeah. Whatever you need to do to strike it or reference >> so it's clear. >> Mhm.
>> And then you have to change your numbers. >> That makes it, >> you know, that's the hard part when moves. >> I'm already thinking about moving that whole section up to change all my numbers. >> 1219 inspection. Uh B office may make or require any inspection to ascertain
compliance with business chapter. I think it's fine. >> Who is our zoning official here? >> Tony. He's so he's building and zoning. There's two people. Is that not normally two separate people side? >> It's usually one I think >> really >> from what I've seen.
>> In the past we had a zoning administrator. >> That's what I was thinking. There's like a zoning department and there's a building inspections department. So >> yeah, generally in your in a great big scheme you have your building, you have your flood plane and you have your zoning.
>> In the absence of a building inspector, are you our zoning person? >> Uh yes. Okay, good. That's all I want to know. I want to make sure we have somebody there that can actually wear that hat and stroke the pen and take make decisions. Okay, good. Thank you. So, I'll go with that. 19. Moving on to
20 sign construction spec specifications. Um, Florida building code paper cardboard sign prohibited. Cloth or plastic fabric banners may only be used for temporary signs. Um,
construction standards, all signs being stung, construct in a professional manner, uh, >> on paper and cardboard. On paper and cardboard then, but a lot of those signs are they're neither >> like political signs or some of those other signs they put out. They're really
like plastic. >> A lot of these signs today are plastic. >> They're those are good onto plastic and they're installed. No, no, no, no. signs. They're painted on plastic and they're installed. They're pulled tight and that sign stays there for some time.
That the the UV resistance on these signs is getting to be much greater. So when you say no plastic, um I get cloth, I get fabric because that stuff's going to like eat up and it specifies plastic fabric. So I don't know what
>> Okay. Yeah, that's okay. >> Well, when you say plastic fabric, I don't know. Fabric is cloth and plastic is plastic. So now >> I don't know what plastic fabric is. >> I don't either. If we don't know what it is, why is it in there? >> Yeah. >> Paper and cardboard. I get that. Cloth. I get that. But plastic fabric.
>> I mean really that all those banners and stuff are plastic PVC based. >> I mean I don't want to call myself out, but I've got a plastic permanent sign right now. >> Yeah. Let's keep that in there and get that taken care of. Get code enforcement over there quickly. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, let's get him over
there before he leaves the meeting today. >> No, I was I was going to say it, too. But yeah, signs like that, those are >> Well, all these sign companies with the billboards, those things are all plastic. They're taking plastic and putting up there and they're pulling it tight and it last for three or four months and they're putting another one up there,
>> right? >> Long as it's engineered and good. >> Yeah. Our biggest thing is the wind factor. >> Well, I mean, if their sign goes out or somebody's plastic sign goes out, they got to fix it. We got They got to fix it, right? Can we pull plastic out, Nancy? >> It's like a plastic vinyl. It's like a
thin vinyl. Where are you? >> You're on um 121-20 for the section >> material >> B. The second sentence says cloth or plastic fabric banners. I mean, let's think about this.
>> Somebody comes in and um and this is for permanent signs, correct? >> Yes. >> I don't know that we need Well, this says we can't make materials out of plastic fabric. plastic fabric is vinyl based on what you're telling me, Ashley.
Right. Um, >> it's a thicker vinyl. >> Veronica, can you give some expertise on this, please? >> I'm sorry. >> No problem. >> Doing something for Adam. >> Can you have a permanent heavy duty vinyl sign correctly installed that looks like a million bucks? Can you do
that or you can't do that? >> Okay. So, what's your question? >> Nothing. >> This is new language. Keep this. >> Yeah, this is new. This is proposed from >> or that's I'm trying to clarify whether we keep it or pull it. >> Yeah. >> Um, under 121-20, sign construction specifications, materials,
>> paper or cardboard signs are prohibited. Cloth or plastic fabric banners may only be used for a temporary sign. We don't allow temporary signs in the city, right? >> Yeah, we have temporary signs. >> We allow temporary signs. >> You do?
>> I think it's in the list. you have a gun to always know the permanence. >> And usually those are used when uh you know the sign company is creating their sign, they want to put something up. Um
that's usually when we'll see that. You don't see it very often, but you will see the vinyl signs go up a lot. >> So why don't we why don't we name it in there? Why don't we say cloth or plastic >> sign or vinyl signs are allowed if
they're in a progression to a permanent sign. >> Does that make sense? >> Well, that's why it says now it's only used as temporary. >> That seem like the only thing we probably want to do is the scratch plastic. Just make cloth or fabric banners may only be used for temporary
>> and that solves the issue. Right. >> Okay. Right. Agree. Everyone agree. >> I'm agreed. >> Plastic is gone. >> Over here. >> My right hand lady. >> Turn a lot of load over there today. Aren't you Christine?
>> You turn a lot of load over there. Getting two empty seats. Right. Uh construction standard. I think it's a see sign install professional work like manner. Paint coated or made of rust or wood rot inhibit. That's all good.
I I think though that not all wood is rot inhibited on signs, >> right? It says if it's exposed, it has to be rotten. >> Exposed. Yes, it needs to be treated. >> I agree with that. It's perfect.
>> Anything else on 20? >> Okay. Moving to section 12121. design requirements uh shall be compatible with the buildings to which they relate and with the surrounding neighborhood. All signs except temporary signs shall be subject to design requirements below. Well, we
we say that that's very subjective. >> It is. >> It is. Um >> cuz who says >> that? That that's wide open interpretation there and you can come up with almost anything. Guess who says it's come back you all of us
>> all permit signs should meet >> land belt code it really is >> what's what's meet the code requirements not because you know put some like I said subjective in there like be compatible well that's not compatible to me
>> I can see that being a problem I agree >> what's this guy think it's your firm all this stuff >> it's I'm telling you this is years of all municipalities. >> Yeah, he's uh he's loosey goosey there. >> Um
>> the same opacity. What's opacity mean? >> Um you can see through it. How much you can see through it? Opaque. >> You're using big words in here. Huh? >> I can change the word. >> Oh, opacity is a fairly common.
>> I don't know what to change it with though. >> Listen, I'm telling you, in my six years, I've never used the word opacity. you are now. I bet you're going to find a way to use it. I bet you will. >> Yeah, you need to learn that word. I think it's >> I'm sorry that you don't know it, but
you need to know it. >> It could come in handy. >> Yeah, like when you're on doing a PowerPoint presentation, whatever, you set the opacity as you design layers. >> That's the IT guy and you're coming out. >> Very important word. >> It's important when it comes to clothes, too. >> Remember, I'm a car guy. All right.
>> Right. when it comes to clothes too. >> When it comes to clothes, what you can see through >> right now you'll remember it. >> So it's kind opacity is kind >> never it never leave my eyes. >> Was kind of like tenting right >> the level of tint. >> That's level opacity. >> Tint.
>> Tent, right? >> Tint. You said tent. >> Tint. Tent. T I N T. >> Yeah, I was I was hearing tent >> order. Yes, sir. >> I'm just kidding. Um, yeah. So, let's see. uh
materials, finish and colors for mon. >> I'm good with that. Hey, >> any combination of landscaping of sufficient dise plane may be used to achieve the same opacity as would achieve. Okay.
All tent panels and sign including those added to existing sign structures shall be constructed of the same materials and illuminated by the same method. as what? >> Um, that's kind of weird. That be is weird. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So in a case where you have a freestanding blown plastic sign and then you have a LED sign, they're not going to be the same >> light method and they're not going to be the same materials and all that stuff.
So that doesn't make any sense at all. >> Take out the illuminated by the same method. >> Yeah. have to take out constructed of the same materials because they're not constructed. I think the whole thing's got to go. >> Yeah. If you take both of those out, you don't have anything there. So,
>> you don't want >> Now we turn C into B. >> Yeah. Is there anything that B needs on to freestanding >> tenant panels. Now, this is in any freestanding sign. A tenant panel seems like what Bob talks about with these signs that the that you have like seven different
>> lawyering building. So I think in that case there you don't want different because you don't want a guy coming with a smoke shop and having his thing go bam, you know, and he's blocking all the other you can't even read. >> Yeah, I think that's tenant panels is what? >> Yeah. >> You sure that's what we're talking
about? >> Yep. >> Yeah, it is. >> Court court sign. >> Yeah, it it looks like from what I just pulled up on Google, it looks like what you're talking about is like >> I'm okay with that. That makes sense. That's good information. Yeah, >> I see. Is your microphone on?
Sorry. >> But but the only thing I don't maybe agree with is color because all you know all businesses have different colors. >> Um I can visualize one of these signs, but it's in Newport, so that's not very
helpful. But I can see that if they were lit with different colors or something, it would be very strange. >> Um they're like a white nearly opaque, I would say. Um, and it has this each business name. So if one
had a blue and one had a green and some just had the >> actually one you pulled up right here. >> I have one of each. I don't want share that. This one has shows different colors. All one color. >> Let me search tenant panel. >> Yeah, I just Googled it. Get that. You can kind
>> I like font size illumination. The only thing you might run into there is somebody's logo. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> I don't dislike the color. I don't think it looks bad. No, >> I see the the white looks a little more sleek.
>> In colors, >> I can't see that happening. It's like a sign. >> Here's one multiolor if it ever comes up. That's not >> Yeah, because then you can tell what's what. You can't see it. >> Oh, you're saying Oh, it's like the
text, not the >> textation. The illumination, the lighting. >> It says panels added to existing signs shall match the existing panels with respect to their color, materials, font size, and illumination. So to me, that >> elimination, yes. Elimination, yes.
Color and font size, no. >> So that's got to go. >> Yeah. >> Elimination is going to be one common background. >> It's easier to read, but it's different. When it's the same, it's just all >> That's what I was saying. Yeah. that starts to look like a phone book. You're like, you know, >> have one line it anyway. >> Exactly.
>> All right. So, remove color and font size. >> Mhm. >> And what? And then and the first sentence is going right. So, we're getting No, no, we decided. Sorry. >> No, because we decided >> we knew what we're talking about. Now, we know we're talking about Okay. I'm caught up again. >> Yeah. So, just the the color.
>> Yes. And font size. >> Size. >> Okay. >> Right. The materials are fine now because they're all the same plastic panel or whatever. >> And then we're standing my sign. We landscape. I mean, you got to watch putting too
many shrubs around the bottom of the monument sign. Soon as you plant all that stuff down there, it just grows around the sign. You got a block sign. You don't see anything. trees, shrubs, those are all things that like grow up and block. You know, this just keeps you from being
able to put a sign and >> that's it, right? >> I think I think the idea is to make it >> bottom of the sign. It makes it look better. It's it's aesthetically more pleasing. And if it's too tall, you know, need to remove that tree or whatever. If it's something that doesn't >> Whose interpretation are we going to
have on this just landscaping? I mean, is it So I >> you can't just >> if you saw this and you saw it and they had two plants there and some rocks. >> That's landscaping. >> Okay. >> You're not saying how much landscaping just you can't just >> make it prettier than the >> stick besides just put the monument
there. >> Okay. >> I think that's fair. Could you also put in there rocks? >> I mean business people don't want to go out there and redo this stuff every year with new stuff and replace plants. It gets expensive to do that.
So what do you mean put rocks in there? >> Rocks I eg ornamental rocks, trees. >> Well, for example, but big fat river rocks, nice ones with two plants. Boom, done. You don't need to put that in there to allow that, you know,
>> it's not limited to the things >> for example. >> I mean, you can use bulbs, you can use rocks, you can use whatever you want. >> Well, I don't see rocks and bulbs here. >> It for example, I mean, it's not inclusive. I I see his point because right now the only examples are
>> ornamental shrubs, green things, and he wants to make sure it's obvious, I think, that you don't have to use. >> If I had a sign and it was a one of those monument signs, and I had eight places in my strip mall, and I wanted to put that up there, but I didn't want to maintain it. I didn't want stuff growing up around it where you couldn't see the
sign. I'd put some of those big river rocks on thing. Well, >> let's put it in there then. >> I don't want to have to put shrubs in there, like trees and shrubs and stuff. future just shows you can use something other than plants.
>> You could it's not in there a term or there is it would be >> similar items or similar or of similar type >> well correct me if I'm wrong but I know in the past a lot of times when you put things in there they become limiting factors. Well, that's when the way this
is written right now, it's saying for example, ornamental trees, shrubs, and ornamental plants. That's not limiting anybody. It still needs to be, you know, um landscaping around it. I I see your point that the only examples appear to be green things and if you're going to
allow mulch or or decorative rocks or anything else, >> someone would know that when they came and talked to Veronica or someone at the window, but if you just read that, you may think you have to plant something to >> I'm just going to tell you as a business guy, I'm going to put rocks around mine with fabric underneath it.
>> I'm not I'm not doubting that, >> right? And and you can and >> but you could also do mulch, >> right? >> You could also You can also leave it dirt. >> You don't want to leave it dirt. splashes up on your >> what you want to do and it's irrelevant to the code. >> I don't think you >> it's irrelevant to the code what you want to do. >> How about just removing ornamental
plants and saying ornamental ground coverings? >> I would be more inclined to just say landscaping and be done with it. Supposedly >> instead of ornamental plants just say ornamental ground coverings >> because that ground covering is rock, it's plants, it's >> good
>> mulch. >> Thank you for saving me and Eric on that one. I appreciate it. >> I know. Oh, I was like, >> council >> woman does that work for you work for you? >> Right. >> Less is more in my mind. But if we want to call out a few things, >> still less. Well, we're going to I'm
just going to brown. >> You're swapping one thing out for something that is. >> So, it's still just three examples. And again, it's not limited to these three things. >> I just see somebody saying, "Hey, where's your trees and shrubs?" Right. >> You know, I'm like, "I got rocks." Well, rocks isn't in there. >> No, it is. >> That's I get those calls. We know we do.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. Uh, wall signs now be installed in a manner that detracts from the architectural design of a building. Wall signs shall not be installed over windows, doors, or other types of fenestration. Now, that's a new word. Now, that's a new word.
>> Yeah, that's >> that's >> that one. I don't know. We assume it means openings. >> Yeah, it is openings. Yeah. Administration. >> I've never heard that. >> Yep. the arrangement of windows and doors on the elevations of a building.
>> Well, for example, >> so why would we not want wall signs above windows? >> It doesn't say above involved with blocking them >> because like a carry out, let's say a carry out and they've got their advertisement signs on the window and then something's happening there. The
police go by windows. >> You can't even see looking in the window what's going on. Where's the clerk? You can't you can't see the boat. It's not safe. It's talking about blocking them. >> We need to replace that word though. >> Yeah, I agree. That's a little bit >> to not block
>> penration. >> On top of >> Oh, that would finish. >> Yeah, I thought you meant the over part. >> Well, that's wall sign should not be installed >> over over top of >> you. It should not be installed to block >> or other types of that's the idea,
right? Yeah. Install the block, windows, doors, other types of openings >> because you want to be able to see from the outside into the inside. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Got it. >> And a wall sign is a permanent structure
because obviously we we'll get down to the the window signs that are partially >> on the double check. Yes. Well, on those though, like the the clerks can look out, but nobody outside can look in. And
that's not a good thing. >> Blinds you can't see in either. >> I've always struggled with the whole thing. You can have shades pulled all the time, but you can't put a window sign that you can't see through. That's coming. Anything else on 21?
You're good. Okay. 12122 journal sign provisions. See that seem like that should be >> we can move >> the very very top. >> We can move it wherever you want it. >> Um five relation applied to all signed
without the consent of legal owner. Obviously, chapter non fire effect law fixtures sign related provisions and private leases regarding signs so long as they're not confer or the ownership of sign structures. So, and we we did change
right away stuff early on the temporary signs, right? How many feet back? Um so it it says except in conformance with requirements of this chapter >> which is the whole >> so we should be good there. Uh is
illegal shall be forfeited to public and subject to confiscation uh in addition other revenues here under the city shall the red recover. Okay. Okay. No signage shall be erected. So it's obstructing fire escape required exit window or door open. Maybe we should put fenistration in there.
>> Where you at? >> Deep. >> It's going to be our new. >> Yeah. You got to watch how much room we have. >> That >> Yeah, we use that occasionally. >> I think in this code here it should be simple. >> Yeah. This is for the general person to
this this is not a somebody who's you know >> this first time I've seen penistration really does >> I really should have a dirty way talk about >> who who say wrote this >> I'm not saying that he's listening >> tell appreciate the linguistics
>> le uh no signed so it >> wasn't me clearly Uh, no sign shall be erected with which interferes with any opening required for ventilation. Signs to be maintain minimum 6 ft horizontal 12 ft vertical
clearance from electrical conductors and from all communications equipment or lines. Now this is interesting. >> I mean you have sometimes you have power lines going to your building. The sign could very well have a
connection. Well, it does have a power line going to it. >> Yeah. >> You know, I actually have that sign right now. Power line goes to the sign. Yeah. >> From the pole installed by the power company. >> I'm trying to figure out what they're
trying to get here. Make a minimum six ft vertical clearance from electrical conductors and from all communications equipment or lines. That could be the product of municipalities that don't want the that look of the lines near the signs and
that's just the way they've worked around it. I don't think there's any I mean it's not some kind of fire hazard. >> Well, that's what I was trying to see is they're trying to >> I mean maybe there is that but obviously they attach right to it. So, >> nobody's going to install a sign where the wind blows and the electric thing hits the sign. Nobody's going to do
that, right? But I maybe this is keeping them from doing that. Six feet and 12 feet. That's a lot of runway for a sign that could be powered up. >> Yeah, it's huge. >> Yeah, I think we take it out. We take it out. >> I would double check that one. >> Yeah, I think we we lean towards
removing it, but if you could follow up with him and see if there's some kind of reason. >> Yeah, >> I'd like to hear Tony's reason for that. Yeah, >> it to write this. This is >> Well, this is the billy firm. >> Yeah, but I mean Tony might Tony might know a reason. >> I don't want the lawyer's perception. I
want Tony's perception. >> Yeah, >> I understand. >> I'll see what I can find out. >> No disrespect to any of the attorneys. Trust me. >> I said this is this is a product of him doing this for many many many municipalities and kind of the most what most of them have wanted or
>> we might have something in here from Yeah. >> So, like I said, this might be, you know, a community that wants a certain look and they don't want near the sign a a >> electrical wire hanging in front of it and that's what they how they come up to, you know, come to do that. So or it may be that you know there's some
building code purpose for that and if there is we're going to figure that out. >> So the chief account follows on signs and their supporting structure shall maintain clearance and non-inference with all surface and under underground facilities and conduits for water sewage electricity or computer case equipment lines placement shall not interfere with
natural artificial drainage or surface groundwater. >> I think that really probably covers it. >> I think that covers the next one. Don't if it also doesn't interfere you're good. Yeah. Um, uh, no sign shall be attached to a stand pipe, gutter, drain, or fire escape. Nor
shall any sign be installed so as to impair access to a roof. >> Okay. The building official may um, actually, you know what? Going back to the fire escape, >> there's usually signs on this. >> Yeah.
>> What sign? >> Usually signs on fire escape. >> Yeah, you would have sign on fire escape. You would not have a sign on the fire escape. Why would >> not well not shop here, but it' be signs for the fire escape how to operate it maybe or >> emergency. Those are instructions. Those are not advertisements,
>> right? >> And it's not going to >> Well, signs don't necessarily >> signed mean just advertisement. >> Well, I mean a sign that says, "Hey, pull down on this ladder." That's a sign. >> Well, it's still a sign because it has a message. But I think that the important thing to think about an H is that sign
pull here is not blocking. The whole point of this is not to impede access. So there >> well it says no sign should be attached to stamp pipe drain fire escape nor shall any sign be installed to secure access. So >> I think
notwithstanding instructional signage. I mean, as long as you're as long as you're not impairing the access, what does it what does it matter? As long as it meets all the other requirements, I guess. I mean, think
about a fire escape. Fire escape, you come out a window, you got a metal graded thing, and then you jump, you take two stairs down, you jump on a ladder, it pulls down. This is basically saying you cannot hang a sign on your fire escape. >> Right. Not the doorway, too. >> Right. It's it's it's I I don't see it
saying >> You're right. You know, if you want to get away from the fire, go this way. I don't see it saying that. I don't that's not what it's talking about. >> Well, I know, but keep in mind that a sign is a very broad term. >> How would you like to clarify that
to to you know, to me it doesn't necessarily matter. I'm just trying to look forward to any kind of thing that we might see that solves the problem. >> So, let's just think about this. So, our building official goes out. He's inspecting a building and he looks up
and he sees a sign says, "Hey, to get the ladder to come down, put your weight on here." What's he going to say? Take that down. >> Well, if he likes you, going to say nothing. If he doesn't like you, he's going to say item eight says you can't come right behind him and say, "Put that thing back up." Because that's
>> No, the code restricts it. >> Technically, you cannot put a any sign on a fire escape is what this tells me. >> Am I reading that right? >> Well, that's what it's saying. is the what is the fire escape when you first brought it up. I'm thinking you're talking about like the the access to get to >> Well, fire escape is basically metal
stairs that go up to a window. How about if we put in there >> sign put a sign on on the stairs? >> Well, it does say not impede and that is the whole >> it says access. >> So, you can have a sign that says this is how you work this escape because it as long as it's not impeding.
>> It says nor shall any sign be installed. So it says no sign and it says nor shine sign. >> So you cannot have any signs on a fire escape. Exactly what I'm saying. Maybe we can put in there except for instructional installed so as to impair >> instructional signage. >> Yeah, you can do something like that.
>> Standing safety or instructional signage. We can get sideways real quick up here. You know >> everything else remains. >> It says be installed so to as to impair >> going to have that issue. >> I don't think it's an issue. big.
>> So, and you're you're right. You probably won't. But again, when I look at code, I want to write it right so that 100 years from now, people aren't saying, "Why the hell is that in there?" >> Should be there. There there shouldn't be a sign in a fire escaping. >> Absolutely. Should be instructional signs, arrows, things that people who
don't read and understand or different languages. You know, there needs to be like hieroglyphic signs. >> But is that that, you know, direction on where to how to get to the fire escape is different than having a sign on the fire. But once you get there, I need to know how to use it. >> It's a ladder. >> That ladder.
>> There are different implications of fire escapes that >> Well, then I think you can leave all of it, but we'll reward it to make it clear that what we're trying to convey is that we don't want to impede access. >> Could that >> right with you? I think that's clear.
>> Well, the common door separates those two states. If you add fire escape, I think there is there is cause to notwithstanding any uh usage instructional >> safety or safety or instructional. >> Yeah, you can do that way. >> Well, I'll work on it.
>> And that way they could put up garage sale today. >> That's what that's what you're trying to >> or just a way it being blocked and you can't it tells me how to use it, but now I can't get to it. You know, obviously that would not >> right. >> Silly little thing, but I mean, if you're gonna do it, you might as well do
it right. >> Uh, I, the building official, may order the repair of signs declared a nuisance. A sign not kept in good repair and a neat clean appearance is public. Okay. Can we bold that? I love that statement. Leave that one in red. Yeah, leave that
one in red. Right. >> Arrows. >> Yeah, the visual. Just don't put it on. >> We have a problem in our town with maintaining the quality of signs. signs out there are falling down, dilapidated, and >> yeah, that that's something that I've already addressed with code that we're going to start looking the next week or
so. We're going to start hitting the signs. >> Yeah, it's one way we're spending all this money to beautify our city and the folks that are in here with their businesses, they're just falling down stuff, you know. So the visual clearance of sight triangle to asssure adequate sight distance at the intersection of two public roadways and at intersection
of PL roadway or other private roadway and an access way or driveway shall follow the criteria of current Florida Department of Transportation blah blah blah. Okay. Notice public safety emergency service vehicles to rapidly locate addresses and to assist. Am I reading that wrong? to assist
public to assist traffic resources mandating addresses place. Okay, that's fine. >> Which addresses where we said raising from from 3 in to 4 in letters and all that. >> Yeah. >> Or number >> not identifying your building's number is a problem, you know, especially for
emergency vehicles, cops, customers. Signs shall not be located on public own land or easements or inside the street rights of way except bus stop signs, government signs and safety or warning signs or as otherwise allowed by license agreement proved by the city council.
Nothing shall prohibit a duly authorized local official from removing a sign from public property as allowed by law. Okay. So where did we see a benchmounted sign? You know, like these people, they put the benches at the bus stop, they maintain them, but they have
a sign in them. We we we let that go, right? We're good. >> I think Yeah, we allowed that. >> I think you left it. >> Okay, good. Just want to make sure we did. >> Why we talked about it? >> Because if not, we're going to be buying and maintaining a park bench stuff. >> Now, that's technically those are on
publicly on land and right away. >> So, do we that spot where the bus stop is? Is that not the uh transit spot or something? We easement with them and then there's some kind of a public private partnership in that
>> probably Pasco and Pasco probably gives permission to them to do that and they get a little piece of the pie with the advertising, right? >> So maybe accept bus stop signs or fence signs as per whatever. >> They do structures too. They might build
a three-sided structure with a roof and there panels in that structure have advertisements in the structure. I mean, I'm okay with that because they built the structure, they pay for the structure, right? >> So, when you say bus stopformational signs, does that not include bus stop
bench and enclosure? Well, how do you call enclosure the uh the the canopy you stand under in the rain? Will that that be anything around the bus stop? It would it would include all that bus stopformational signs. That doesn't tell me that.
>> To me that I think of like the the routes and the timing of the bus like the >> information on what what sign. >> Yeah. But but if if you're going to have we don't have any here where you do we have any in the city of Port Richard where people can go in and stay out of the rain or the sun. See these sign companies will come in and they'll put
up beautiful structures for you but they advertise and I think we should allow that. I think we should write that in the code right now. >> Yeah. Well, because I would love to have places for people sit out of the sun >> and then call them and have them come put those in. >> We will. Yeah. They say, "Hey, we've approved it in the code here and now we'll have covered bus stops that are
nice with a bench and they're out of the sun." >> Well, this will allow >> What do you think about that, Chief? Covered bus stops. >> That's >> Yeah, I don't think >> I can tell you one thing. It's It's a great idea as long as it doesn't turn into scams. >> Exactly. >> Well, then that's where you come in,
>> right? They can't What's it called? Loitering. bus came and went, you're still sitting there. >> Who owns the property? If it's >> if it's the county, then we have to get them to give us the trespass authorization. Can't just make people leave if it's not our property.
>> Or if it's a private person's property, >> public right away, you guys can do that. >> If it's a public rightway, but if it's ran by PSTA where they're the ones operating the bus stops, then they have to give us the authorization to trespass people from those areas. >> Well, like go pass code. I don't know if they have any of those type things, but they're actually expanding their service
up at 19. So, they they would possibly put one in at some point. >> I mean, I think people who take public transportation, people in wheelchairs, these kind of things, they should be entitled to be in some place they're not getting smoked and rained on while they're waiting for something. So, I'm not saying we're going to go spend the money to put them in, but if they want
to put them in, I don't think we should impede them here. And maybe we maybe it's not even our jurisdiction. Maybe it's not even something for us to worry about. And and this provision is just about the sign. So the actual building of the structure would be a different it wouldn't be here. >> I think here you just if you just take outformational
>> and then you accept bus stop signs then it doesn't matter what kind of signs they are. They can be advertisements. They beformational whatever >> and that would also cover the the bench signs as well. All right. >> I'm good with that. Yeah. >> Just take that information. >> I don't foresee it getting to be a huge problem like oh my gosh what do we do? I
don't see that. You never you see what happened? >> Sorry, I have to hire another officer to police the bus stops. >> No, I could tell you what other areas that have issues with that is they allow signs around the whole outside so we can't see inside as we're driving by.
>> And then if somebody decides to sit in there that doesn't smell as polite as other people or has their property with them, we can't just make them leave for that because we don't know if they're waiting for a bus or not. Now, if they're laid down on a bench and sleeping for two or three hours, that's one thing. But if they stay there and the bus comes and goes, we can't just
make them leave because they might be waiting for the next bus. That's where the enforcement issue comes in with those. >> If it becomes a problem, we can address that later, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. Um Yeah. Nothing in this division shall be
construed to prevent or limit the display of legal notices, warnings, information, direction, traffic, or other such signs. Fine. And all signs shall comply with applicable billing, electrical code requirements. All sign replacements not require permit. Shall comply with all building. It's all good
boiler plate stuff probably. Um, signs of a height greater than 6 feet or within 10 ft of leg of the rideway shall require a letter of no objection from the local power company to ensure current and future clients. Eric, forgive me. Did you just pass M completely? >> No, I read it.
>> I thought you switched from M to to >> I went to O. But is there something in you saw? >> No, I I wasn't reading that. So, I'm sorry. >> It It was seemed pretty cut and dry. >> Um Oh, good. P. If no height or size restriction is specifically prohibited
sign located in the city, height size restriction for structure and which sign is located we'll cover. Okay. Anything else on those? >> No. >> Okay. Uh I see we 12123
unregulated areas. This chapter regulates signs and mers consistent with the land use classification. Okay. I think that's okay. Yeah. One more. >> Yeah. I don't I can't get rid of that
big space. I don't know why it's there. >> So, if any area is annexed into the city limits, this is important. No sign except exempt signs described in this chapter shall be permitted therein until the area annex has been zoned by the city council. signs in existence as of the time of annexation shall be brought
into compliance with the chapter within one year of annexation. Okay, so that is a problem in my mind if we annex an area um and then you tell them their signs are no good. >> Yeah, that's not going to What would the city by the way fix your sign? >> Is it a year?
>> Um what's that? that year. >> I would I would say they would be grandfather just like any other sign would be until the is 50% damaged damaged or whatever >> or it's been sitting for how long? Whatever the
>> the whole Yeah. >> Yeah. the whole thing >> during the rules. >> Yeah. We we don't want to say, "Hey, okay, if I do go through the annexation process, here's your list of we're gonna >> damage. it's damaged just abandoned and complied, but we're not going to say
just because you're now here and you may have a sign that we no longer have grandfathered. >> If they're annexed in, they those >> those apply to those guys. So, I don't know if you need to call specifically anything out here. >> So, like a subdivision that has their subdivision sign out front. They've had that same one there for many, many, many
years. And then and they're annexed in and then we go, "Nope, we don't like that one." >> You're paying extra taxes. Oh, by the way, >> yeah, you need a onetime special assessment for every homeowner for $1,000 each. you know, they're like, >> "So, shouldn't we just remove this together?" >> And that solves your space problem,
>> right? >> There you go. >> I still can't get that. >> That's okay. You're in a whole different section now, Nancy. So, it solves that. So, so strike B >> D and D.
>> Section 12124. for non-conforming uses must comply with chapter. Any building land use non-conforming to zoning orders for business district located shall nevertheless comply with all provisions of chapter for the district in which is located. Um
so is a non-conforming use. How can it comply? >> Let me I was still thinking about >> I'm not done with annexation. Yeah, I'm thinking we might we want we might want something in there. I don't know what yet, but if if >> I'm trying I'm trying to think through. Thank you. We're going to go back a
minute. Trying to think through if you annex in a commercial property and I'm I'm looking I'm kind of asking her. You annex annex in a commercial property that has a sign. Let's say they have a sign that the city doesn't allow, but you allow most signs. So, they probably are gonna or they maybe it's too tall or
it's too wide or it's the wrong color or something. If nothing in the code addresses how to handle that, they get to keep it. >> It's a non-conforming sign that >> they're not but for for city, they're not a legal non-conforming sign because
they have weren't under your provision. So illegal non-conforming means it was allowed until we changed it. I guess it's legal non-conforming because they were annexed in and it was pre-existing, >> which would be illegal nonforming use. The code didn't apply to them until the
day they annex. It's legal non-conforming and so you have to change more of damage and then it becomes okay. So it would be covered. Okay. Thank you. I had to talk that through in my head. Okay. Um non-conforming. >> What is that? If it's non-conforming, it can't comply with the chapter because
it's non-conforming. >> I think it's talking about I think this is what it's trying to convey. If you have a a building or a land use that's non-conforming, that's that's one part, but they're they want this is about signs. They want a sign. Your sign still needs to be still needs to conform with
>> Oh, I see what you're saying. >> So, yes, you may be a non-conforming use that we're allowing on this property, but that doesn't mean you can have whatever sign you want. You still have to your sign has to be consistent. But if your sign is already existing >> I don't know that I like because see this isn't talking about signs it's
saying the building or land use any building or land use that's non-conforming >> still has to comply with the sign code >> so as to automatic couldn't we just remove that all together because automatically signs are of a different
>> just put the word sign in there >> code section al together so if your building was non-conforming that doesn't >> no I'm actually right now trafficing brief in response to someone saying, "But I'm a non-conforming use. I don't have to follow your code." So, I would highly recommend you address it. I just think it needs to be tweaked.
>> Could you simple that if I've got to look at it and I can't make sense of it after the third time? >> I think we need to tweak it. >> I think you just need to call out unless you have a legal non-conforming sign. That's okay. If you're trying to put a new sign in, it has to comply. Even though you're >> What it's trying to address is kind of what I'm dealing with right now. I have
a I have a property, not here, obviously, different different municipality. you have a property that is it has a legal non-conforming use. So, they're allowed to use the property for that use. The argument being, okay, well, I'm a legal non-conforming use. So, I'm my that the code that applied
before you changed it that made me a legal non-conforming use. That's the code that applies across the board. No, >> you're a legal non-conforming use for that use, but the current code is what you have to adhere to. So, I want to make sure that's clear. >> This is a perfect example where AI comes in effective. You take this and you
place it in there. and say, "Hey, tell me how to say this simply." Well, yeah, we're paying you 500 bucks. >> I don't know how to do AI. That's the problem. >> I don't know how to I don't have I don't have the I don't my No one is paying for the updated version of my AI. So, you
>> can AI can mess things up, too, though. And you can tell and you can tell when you're reading it. Oh, that's AI. Oh, that's AI. >> There's places for it. >> This just needs This needs a This needs a couple words. Trust me, this is easy. This is an easy fix. >> She can do that without AI. >> I don't need AI. I'm
>> She need She got a law degree for CR. >> She probably paid AI. I don't I mean God drafted this one. >> Yeah, >> this makes sense once you understand what he's what it's trying to convey. But it's not easily understood the first time you read it. So I will easier.
>> Was it finesse? What's that word again? Finesse. >> Finish. >> Yeah, if you could sprinkle fenistration in there somewhere. Uh section 12125 rights not transferable off property. The rights contained in this chapter including but not limited
to those associated with signs, sizes, numbers, types and allowances as well as rights associated with nonforming signs and appeal rights may not be transferred in any manner to any other person nor aggregated. Okay, >> this is wordy. >> This is wordy.
Because honestly, you're right. If you have one of these signs and you sell it, >> you're selling property. >> You have a non-conforming sign, all of a sudden you got a >> Yeah. non-conforming sign, tear that down and build that. I don't like that at all. >> But it says off property, which is
confusing to nor the sign rights of any other person. >> Now, I'm thinking about that big sign I got on our property over there that goes up. It's got the billboards on it and that's a pre-existing non-conforming sign structure. Now, the property is
sold. Now, they're saying this doesn't >> Yeah. tear it down. >> You got to tear it down. You got, but I can't tear it down because we're under contract with them for like 100 years, you know, whatever that is. >> Strike it. >> Unless you can tell me how to make sense of that without giving me five
sentences. >> Well, I think that's word that's like word salad. >> I think they're really trying to say is it's it's okay long as you own it, but as soon as you transfer the rights that all bets are off. >> I don't like that. >> I don't either. Yeah. >> I'm buying your property because I love the sign where it's at and I like the sign. And I just paid another 50 grand
for the process. >> This is just another way for the municipality to >> You don't know that until you go in for some signage and they say sorry. >> Exactly. >> Sorry. >> Good luck in that fire escape sign. >> Get rid of that and you see uh
>> some need >> uh 12126 substitution of non-commercial speech for commercial speech. Not saying anything containous chapter contrary any sign erected pursuant to the business chapter may at the option of the owner contain a non-commercial message in lie of a commercial message and a
non-commercial copy may be substituted any time in place of the commercial copy. The non-commercial message copy may occupy the entire sign face or any portion thereof. The sign face may be changed from commercial to non-commercial messages or from one non-commercial message to another non-commercial message as frequently as desired by the owner sign provide the
size, height, setback and other dimension criteria. I have no idea what that says. >> I know exactly what it says. >> What does it say? >> Is it even necessary if it's allowed to >> even have it in there? >> So, I'll give you an example. In Winchester, we have a digital electronic sign and it says down payment start at
99.95. All right. And then a minute or so later, it pops up. It pops up. It said, you know, God is love, right? >> Okay. And then it comes in a few minutes later, it says, you know, open Saturdays, you know, and then it pops up again. It says Jesus is Lord. You know, these are non-commercial images and it
says we're allowed to do that and I'm all for it. Let's do it. >> But if you're allowed to do it, why does it have to be in here? >> Because somebody who was on this plane, who did this plane zone? >> No, this is stuff from a colleague of mine. This is I said this is >> So this is basically telling you could do what you could already do. I like it.
Yeah, I like it. Sometimes codes tell you what you can do. We make it clear what you can't do. >> If there's no exclusion to doing it, then you don't need it. >> This is just excess. I would agree with that >> jargon here. >> Um I mean >> you're automatically allowed to do it unless there's an exclusion to
>> Well, you can't use vulgarity. I mean, if the chief goes by my sign and I've got vulgar content on my sign, right? Isn't that a problem? >> That's a very very very tight. Yeah, it's hard. What you're describing >> with this signage that you just talked
about, that's not excluded in the code anywhere. So obviously it's allowable. >> Well, if it was if it was not excluded somewhere else, they wouldn't have put it here and spent a whole paragraph doing it. >> I I think this is a product there's obviously a lot of litigation around signs and for what you can't say.
>> So I think this is to make it clear this is something you can do. I don't think it's a problem leaving it in there. It's allowed and it makes it clear and not even just to the people that might want to look at the code, but for those that follow us the building and code behind us too >> until something is different with the
law. I think this is just a very nice explanation of what you can >> and the good news is I read it and I understood it. I didn't read it and I was like >> I did not understand it. >> We definitely need to keep it in there then for sure just because you understood it. >> Aren't you glad you
>> say what he wants over there? >> I agree with you Christine. As I said it's I mean I'll probably leave it in there obviously but when you have all this stuff in there that you don't need it just becomes long and long long cumbersome. This is what I think >> why it might be good to leave it in
there. And um if someone is unclear whether they can or can't do this and they walk up to that window and they ask this question, a lot of people might not know the answer if they don't can't go to the code. I think that would eliminate >> I'm a possible denial that could get us sued um or something like that or even
just bringing me into the conversation to analyze, you know, I think it just addresses an issue that they're going to >> Can I ask you a question? In the past five years, how many times we had to defend ourselves in the court of law? >> Um, I can't answer that because I don't do your >> Okay. Since you've been
>> I have not I have only only thing I have gone to court for for you guys is code enforcement, but you have an insurance company that defends you in lawsuits that I'm not part of. So, I can't answer your question. >> So, you don't know any that we've had to defend ourselves? >> No, I know there's been some that you've had I don't know that you've gone to trial, but I know you've been sued. It's
just not I'm not the lawyer that handles that because your insurance company gives matter of >> fact we since I've been elected we we settled them. >> Yeah. So settled one. >> Yeah. So it happens and those are usually like your sidewalks and falls motor that um car accidents with >> well that's why we pay that big insurance policy >> and they provide you a lawyer for
>> Lloyds of London. Isn't that what it is? >> Lloyds of I don't know PRM. >> Yeah. >> And then they go ahead and sign into the case. You know, we have se we have a I don't can't remember how many actual opening claims we have, but um some some we uh we automatically write out for
because they're in Pasco County or Newport's jurisdiction. Yeah. And stuff like that. But um there are a few pending right now that we're working on. >> And then you have employment claims that are we'll leave it. That's fine. >> It's it's
not hurt anything for sure. Um section 12127 content neutrality as to sign message viewpoint not anything chapter or contrary no legal sign or sign structure shall be subject to any limitation based upon the content viewpoint of the messages contained on such sign or displayed on such sign structure that's
for the stuff of uh content policy right good anything there okay uh 12128 fees um do you guys want to take Quick break before we go further. About an hour and a half in.
>> Yep. >> Yeah. Let's take turn your mic off. [Music] >> Just make it through this. Okay. So we 12128 fees before any permit is issued. Oh,
this is actually our language. Before any permit is issued under land code, uh the applicant shall at the time application made pay such fees as established by resolution of the city. Um, yes. Say we don't normally pay the fee
until the permit's approved, right? Same thing on a sign, >> right, Brian? >> Yes. >> They apply and we deny and there's no fee, >> right? >> Can we talk about that? >> Sure. Um, so if somebody applies and we deny him,
there's no fee. Correct. So we've just taken all that time to go through that, review it, go through all them, there's no fee. There's nothing there's nothing keeping them from just constantly just you know >> and this says that they're paying when the application gets the time
>> before any permit is issued >> before any permit is issued under the land development bill of the applicant shall at the time of the application is made pay such per such fees as a satisfied resolution. >> Yes. So that's different because >> they should be paying the ideas they're
paying to compensate building department for their time and what they're doing. The the fees not happening now. >> It needs to be. I mean, that's that's what you're >> Well, well, that's on signs, but on the I don't know what it says for the other building permits, but I know a practice is you don't pay until the permit's
approved approved >> and that's paying for the the inspections and the things that come after the building permit. >> So, if not approved, you don't incur all those costs. It's really just a I mean, you're the review is built in obviously. >> I want to see how the building code's written, too. I'll check on this. >> Yeah, it should be. pay any fee until a
permit is issued, ready to be issued. >> And that includes signings, >> everything. >> Well, because it looks like signs are actually supposed to be collecting a fee up front. >> Yeah, we we don't come in and pick it up or they send the money to us, however we get it. How do we get money from? >> They do it digitally.
>> They do it. They give us a credit card over the phone or bank. >> They do it themselves. We send them a link, they pay it. >> You can pay here with a check. I just did mine. I just I was going to pay it online, but it's going to cost me extra, so I broke check. convenience
fee credit card they charge you 3% just like everything >> so are you are you saying that you think we should charge a fee approve approved or denied how much time does it take you to review
an applicate a permit application for we'll just call what it is a building remodel >> a long time >> yeah that could be extensive but this these are just some Right. I know. But that's kind of brought up the subject.
>> But yes, other remodel, a new home, it could take hours. It It just depends. >> Keep keep in mind it's not going to end up in a denial. They're they probably going to conform. >> They're going to conform to do what they need to do and then you get the fee. I'm
I'm definitely opposed to, you know, had like put up a sign uh 50 bucks. Okay. Sorry, denied. Thank you for your 50 bucks. I I don't like that at all. But the idea is is obviously we have code that they have. >> So I'll I'll say something that may not sound politically correct and I'm not
using any terms that I shouldn't use here. So we'll just keep >> Should we go to recess? >> Go ahead. >> What is our city's hot point to get people's permits approved fast so we can get the money in
house here to pay our bills? >> Well, there isn't one. Well, so the the the idea is not to your building function does not make money. It supports itself. Okay. So, it's not a it's not a business. >> Okay. >> Um it's >> and if it doesn't support itself because
if you if there's other areas that we're going to pull money into to support it, that's what I'm saying. How do we how do we incentivize our building department to process permits and applications in a thrifty manner that gets the money in quickly
and identifies problems fast and problem solving quickly done versus versus we're and I'm not please don't take this wrong versus like hey here's the process and I have no motivation to either get it through or not get it through. I believe I may jump in. Florida statute now has
deadlines for that. Like I I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but Florida statute requires things to happen pretty quickly now or it's deemed approved, right? Am I right? >> Uh yeah, it depends. If it's a private provider, we have x amount of time to get turn it over. Post hurricane, we
have time to turn things over. Um and it's going to depend on staff. It's going to there's time limitations to everything. Generally, a permit has 30 days before it has to be issued. That's by Florida statute. Um, and post
Hurricane Helen, um, things have changed. So, there are, depending on what it is they're doing, we have a certain time frame to get those things out. >> When you say issued, um, issued means it's approved. Come get your >> issued, that means we've reviewed it. We
we denied it. Well, the first thing is a lot of the holdup is we don't receive all the information. So, we can't move forward until we receive the information. We're not supposed to pass that permit application on the building official to review as a plans examiner to review until we have all of the the
documents we need in the first place. That's generally the holdup. Notice commencement doesn't have to be filed. That can be filed before first inspection, but we need that information. A lot of times we don't have the forms. We don't have their insuranceances. We don't have their licenses. And so that holds up the
process. >> Let me let me give an example that may because I desperately need you to help me understand this. Okay. So for instance, a business comes into the community, right? And they they've got big ideas. You know, they're like and and you're like, "Hold on, let's make
sure we're in conforming areas. Is there a meeting that's requested? Is there somebody new wants to come into town, they want to put up, I don't know, Bob's Blueberry Pancakes House, you know, and is there a meeting? Is there a way they can say, "Hey, I'd like to come in and meet with you and your building official to make sure we iron out all this stuff
in the beginning so that we start and work with things." And I did that with Mike, just so you know. Mike met me at the property. Mike gave me some guidelines. I did my best to abide by those guidelines. And then Tony came and it was a different a different sheriff in town, you know. So, building official from building official being here as
long as I have, um, every building official interprets things differently and deems things differently. >> Yes, I understand. >> And so, it's difficult for staff sometimes to keep up with that because we're kind of like yo-yos. You know, one minute we're doing it this way, one minute we're doing it that way. So, it's
a challenge for us in the office. Um, with your specific situation, you were already zoned to do what you were going to do. So, you don't need to go through a development review committee. Mhm. >> Chick-fil-A coming in. That's coming in now. They're going to be heard before
PNZ. We had a DRC, a development review committee with them. >> Oh, so they came in, they met with us. >> They came in, they met with us, we scheduled the meeting. We uh So, just to give you a little background, DRC is a development review committee. Got it. Every single department head is there.
Plus, we bring in the planner. Sometimes we bring in the engineer because this establishment is already there even though they're going to demolish what's there and rebuild. Engineer at this point was preliminary. We didn't need him there. We have a meeting with everyone including the developers.
Everybody sees a conceptual. I need a conceptual plan of what you're going to build there. Set of plans that I can pass on to my team so that they can review it. At that point, all the questions are are given. They're asked. We hold the meeting. We ask the questions. We give the opportunity for
the developer to answer those questions. Everything is happening consecutively. There's no hold up. So, right now, we've had the DRC meeting. I've gotten all the comments over to the developer that they need to address. Now, they can move forward. Now, we can get wait for an
elevation. We can schedule P&Z and go that route. So to answer your question, sometimes that's a DRC is not needed. Even if it's a new business, it's not needed necessarily if you're zoned for that type of use. If you're changing the
use of something or you're building something totally new from the ground up, that would go before the board. >> Let me let me give you my vision and then we'll move on to sign permits again. Okay. >> Where you going with this? So >> I'm reel it in right now. I'm gonna take I'm land in the plane. Just buckle up
and stay in your seat. All right. So, >> I'll give you a little latitude. >> I appreciate that. Thank you. So, so Chick-fil-A is a different animal. That's like a nationwide brand. They've got they've got people on top of people to handle people and do all that stuff. But what about your smaller people that were trying to attract to this town?
They like don't know the difference between how to do this and get that done, but they want to bring their money in here. You know, do we not have a process? And this is not me picking on you, so please understand. I just want to get better as a city. Do we have a process in place says, "Hey, these folks want to bring their money into town here. Maybe we need to meet with them.
Let's call them in and have a meeting with the city manager with this. Let's figure out how we can help them, how we can get them to understand this. Is there something like that in place or is just like, hey, our website?" >> We No, we have done that before in the past. It just depends on the developer and it depends on the person if they want to meet. Sometimes staff doesn't
isn't even aware of what's going on. They're doing things without even staff knowing anything. Sometimes they don't even know they have. That's why I'm trying to figure out how we can be I want to become more business friendly. >> I want us to be able to have somebody somewhere that says, "Hey, this person's
trying to come in here and pour their wheelbarrow money in our city and get involved with us. Is there somebody like Derek or somebody that can sit down with them, say, "Hey, I'm here to help you get through this process." That's all. >> And one step to that is to get this sign code adjusted so it's prison friendly
and we can >> I told you I was going to land the plane process wise obviously. Yeah, that's whole, you know, you got whoever's uh that the city manager appoints as the building services director, right? That would obviously be responsible for process times and and and making things
better within in the building department or city manager himself. So, we'll get there. Okay. I mean, I just then I want to I want to get better in that area. >> Yeah, we will. >> So, as a team, which is what we are, we I want to make sure it's high and because we want to bring money in here.
We want to get people better. you're going to bring in more money, new money into our city, you know, that creates jobs and and all that stuff. >> So, you're on fees, you're good with >> I'm okay with the process where it is right now. Although, I got some conflicting information from Nancy just now about what it's supposed to be.
>> Yeah, we we'll align that. Okay, cool. >> I'm Yeah, I'm I made it out to look in >> and that wasn't a shot because I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. You do a great job for as as many hats as you wear and the things you do for us. You are just worth your weight and gold. So, I was not taking a shot at you. I I didn't take that.
>> Okay. Okay. Uh section two of that. Let's >> So, this is another part of your um definitions for this provision are not found in um the same part of the code. It's in section 101-11.
So, section two of this ordinance takes you to 101-11. And these are the changes that are being made to definitions to supplement the signed code. I can tell you that some revisions I have done, they have moved all the sign
definitions to the sign code. So it's all in one place. Um that can be done. Um if you right now if you go to if you go to section 101-11, it's it's all kinds of definitions. It's tons and tons and tons of them. So I've been flipping through this whole whole time when you ask me if something is defined. So, we
can move those sign definitions to the sign the same section. So, it's kind of all in one place or you can leave them in section 101-11. That's completely up to you guys. Both are perfectly allowed. Um, but these need to be modified to be consistent with the things we just
did and to bring some up to current legal standards. >> Yeah, I like having the specific definitions in the section that they apply to. Um,
but it's it's also nice to have them all in one place, too, so you have to look around. So, I don't I don't know how you >> because there's there's probably there may be other sections of code that reference that same
thing. And so what >> so yeah right now your the definitions for your for your sign related definitions are contained in one which is your general provisions for the whole >> code. So if you like that idea of everything kind of being in one spot I
would leave them where they are. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I think that just to keep everything in one local spot it would uh and that way some other code references that specific sign code you have one place to go back to. So probably in here we just refer back to where our
definitions are. >> Yeah. Yes. >> So do we still need all this? >> You need this this this this will update section 101-11 in your code with a new um definitions. So you don't currently don't have a definition for flag which is something that's referenced in your
sign clip code. So that definition is new government sign and sign. You have a definition and Rod has updated it to make it accurate for the current legal standards that you need to have. So we have to do do it within the section two to change that other section of code.
>> It's a different it's a different section of code. So it can be in the same ordinance but you have to obviously identify what section >> so it's duplicated here basically. We'll have it here and also >> it's not when it when this is then this is just no. So when it's done chapter one chapter 127 will have all those
other changes we've gone through >> and chapter 101 will have these changes. >> It's it's only going to change it in one spot in your code. the with the introduction how it says section two um on the ordinance it says section two section 101-11 um of the port richie co I can't read it
port richie city code entitle definition is amended to read as follows so that's directing your codifier to go into section these changes there only >> and then when we look at >> the sign code this all this won't be here anymore once it's codified
>> it'll be in 101 it won't be when you look at your code >> so section two is it they refer to 101. >> So the ordinance, so thankfully I'm saying the same thing. I'm not explaining it well. So the first looking at the ordinance, the first section is
advising the world and the codifier who's actually going to go in and fix your code. These are the changes to make to these sections. >> I get all that. >> Section two of the same ordinance is just saying make these changes don't get changed in 127. They're going to go to 101. >> I get that too.
>> Okay. But then after that happens, >> yeah, >> does all this amendment stuff stay in the sign code? >> It looks like it does. >> Well, the definitions will apply. It's not going to be written in the sign code. It's going to be written in section 101. But when you see the word flag in the sign code
>> after this is all codified, will I see this section two in here? >> No. No. Because the ordinance doesn't get codified like this. But when they >> Yes. Yeah. The ordinance is is >> information to the world. this is what we're changing and and how we're changing it and it tells the codifier
how to tr actually type it in your in your code of ordinances when you look at >> they then spread it out in the sections of the code that are changed. Yeah. >> The ordinance is just a a general map of what the codifier needs to do. >> All these other sections in your ordinance that say you know please
codify and this takes effect immediately or it takes effect whatever those aren't written anywhere in your code. So basically after so basically after section 12128 sign codes that's what we end >> the the that portion of the code. Yes. >> The other stuff is just for the ordinance. >> We do a spelling collection under
>> Yeah. >> government sign means any temporary or >> Oh yeah permanent that >> just per just minor. >> No it's important because they'll type it just like so. Thank you.
>> Okay. Okay. So, flag means a signing system of a piece of cloth, fabric, or other non- rigid material. Okay. Or yeah, they are section 1011 definitions page 43 42. Government sign means any temporary or permanent sign erected by or on the
order of a public official or quasi public entity at the federal, state, local government level. Okay. problem that okay I think it's all good uh sign means any diff yeah this this probably we need to read through pretty closely sign means any device fixture
placard or structure including its component parts which draws attention to an object product place activity opinion person institution organization or place of business or which identifies or promotes the interests of any person and which is to be viewed from any public street road highway rightway or parking
area for the purpose of chapter this term Sign shall include all structural members. A sign shall be construed to be display surface or device containing organized and related elements composed to form a single unit. In cases where matter is displayed in a random or
unconnected manner without organized relation of the components, each such component shall be considered to be a single sign. The term sign for purposes of this chapter shall not include the following objects. decorative or structural architectural features of buildings not including lettering, trademarks and loop marks
too. >> Can we clarify what that means? Decorative or structural architectural features because a sign may have some architectural features to it that make it look like the existing building or the one near it. So, this says you can't have that, right? >> No, it's not. It's not part of the sign until it says, right?
>> I think what this is trying to say is if your building has something on that's purely decorative, it's not a sign of any kind, that's not controlled by the statute. >> Okay. Gotcha. to you put some architectural stuff on your building, whatever. Okay, gotcha. >> It's not a sign, right? >> Two, symbols of non-commercial
organizations or concepts, including but not limited to religious or political symbols when such are permanently embedded or integrated into the structure of a permanent building which is otherwise legal. That'd be like a cross in the brick or something. That >> imagine. Yeah, that's what I think. >> Okay.
Um, uh, number three, items are device of personal apparel, decoration, appearance, including tattoos, makeup, costumes, but not including commercial mascots. >> How does that work? How does that plug into signs? >> How do tattoos and makeup plug into a sign? >> It's a sign. It's not regulated.
>> Yeah. Like it it could it could have a message, right? A tattoo could have a message. So, someone could argue. >> Hold on. So you're saying I'm just trying to understand how you're >> standing outside your building with your tattoo. >> What's that? >> If you standing outside your building and you have a tattoo that says shop
here, that's not regulated by >> or even if you have a t-shirt that says that, >> right? >> This is >> makeup costume. So now the dude who wears the fuzzy pants and stands down there on 19. >> He's not a sign. >> He's not a sign. He's not. He's holding a sign, but he's not a sign, >> right? According to this, right? He's not a sign.
>> I like that dude by the way. >> I've heard about this guy. Jersey John. >> He does all kinds of different stuff. >> Jersey. >> Number four, manufacturers or sellers marks, emblems, model names, or color schemes installed on automobiles, machinery, equipment visible from a
public area. Five, display or use of fire to fire. >> One more time, please. >> Number four, manufacturers or sellers marks, emblems, model names, or color schemes installed on automobiles, machinery, or equipment visible from a public street. >> Okay. So, so if you have a Honda and it
says Honda, that's got >> But if you take a car and you paint it Bob's pawn shop, that is a sign, not a sign. >> Bob's pawn shop could become a sign because that's not the manufacturer seller. >> Well, that depends if you have you're
allowing if you're allowing vehicle wrap signs in your community or not a different thing. The question was, would that be a sign? Someone advertising their business would not be a manufacturer or sellers market or model name. That wouldn't qualify there. That's something different. This is that's what this is what you hit on
that. You have your car sitting out inside. That's not a sign. It's your Ford, your Honda, your Tesla, your whatever. That's not going to be that's not going to be controlled by this sign code. >> Gotcha. I'm sorry. Forgive me. So, but if you have a pickup truck and you take a banner and you tie it front to rear, is
that considered a sign? it. Okay, two questions. Is it a sign? Depends on what it says. But yes, it could be a sign. Bob's haircut. Then I would say that is a sign. The question would be in your particular jurisdiction, do you regulate those signs or not? >> We talked about that. I thought >> I don't remember. I'm not saying you do or don't. I don't remember. I know we
talked about it. So the qu the answer to your question is yes, it's a sign. If you're going to ask me whether you regulate it here, we'd have to go back and look at what you guys decided because I don't remember. >> I guess where I'm going with that, just to clarify it. So, if if I don't like the size of the sign you let me have >> and I go down to the local U-Haul
>> and I get a, you know, 18 foot box truck >> and then I go over to the sign shop, I'm like, I want a sign on both sides of the thing as big as you can get it and it's registered. It's insured and it's got a tag on it sitting on my lot. Is that legal? >> I want I want to say it was
>> I would say it was too. Okay. I would have to go back and look at what you guys decided for your partic I I do I do this in many municipalities. So I can't remember exactly what you guys decided. >> It can't be like an abandoned bus on blocks with a sign on it. >> Like that old casino bus, >> right? >> No, it has to be licensed insured and
legal. >> That I think is okay based on what we talked about. Go back. >> Veronica is it? >> I don't remember what we decided for here. >> I I don't remember exactly what was decided either, but right now we don't allow that >> right now. And I think you >> I don't think you would want that,
>> but I >> No, I'm not even I'm not I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to understand is it legal to do that, >> but I think I think um there were sign limitations on a lot of >> where it's parked be offsite signage if it's not parked in the same parking lot.
We've had that happen. That's not something we get. >> You can't regulate that anyway because you can't offite and you can't have offsite signage. But if it's attached to a set of wheels that drives around and it's insured and registered in the state of Florida, >> why don't we go back to the code? We
probably need to clarify that. >> The ones that we've dealt with are cars that are derelct >> and they just put signs across their windows. >> Gotcha. >> Um I I've never had if the car moves in and out daily, >> we don't mess with it. >> You allow vehicle. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's kind of like the traveling >> Tesla that pulls the sign board behind it up and down 19. We can't regulate that cuz that thing's moving along, right? >> Yeah. And that was pling zoning. Actually did that, >> right? That's a different >> uh 1213. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So you've agreed to it, >> but it came from planning zone. So they they they've struck that from the code. >> So in and right now in Port Rich Ghle signs are allowed. >> Well, they will be once the new code gets it up. Okay. If the new code gets it. Currently they're not. >> Yeah, that's correct.
>> And Alex playing zoning recommended that be removed and we we agreed. >> Okay. >> Good. >> Thank you. >> Clarification. Um the display or use of
fire, fireworks or candles, motor vehicle or vessel license plates or registration insignia, gravestones and cemetery markers visible from public area, news racks and new stands, artwork that does not constitute. >> News racks and news stands are not
allowed. >> They they are allowed. >> These are things that are notowed. >> These are things that are not governed by the sign code. Okay. >> These are not technically signs. >> Okay. >> From the code perspective. Okay. >> Uh, artwork that does not constitute commercial advertising visible from
public area. Decorations that do not constitute commercial advertising visible from public area. Vending machines or express mail drop off boxes visible from public area. All good. >> Okay. Temporary sign means a sign intended for
a use not permanent nature unless otherwise provided for in the LDC. A sign with an intended use for period of time related to event or occurrence at a future time shall be deemed a temporary sign. Such events could include but are not limited to scheduled community athletic or charity events. Contractor
notices construction progress projects in progress, elections scheduled to occur in the future or sales or leases of real property, goods or services by retailers, realtors or individuals where same will be completed by some future date or upon the completion of the sale or lease. A flag shall be deemed a
temporary sign. A sign advertising a reduced price or other promotional benefit associated with a product or service sold or offered on a parcel shall not constitute a temporary sign. So that's interesting. A flag shall be deemed a temporary sign. A sign advertising a reduced price or other
promotional benefit is not a temporary sign. Why is that? >> We talked about that before because and I think something that Christine brought up. You could leave that out. >> We talked about that. I don't know. It was somebody we could leave it out and we said that we don't want that. We left
>> and I think it was back in temporary sign code and here it tells it's not temporary. >> Well, we change it. I mean things you've changed earlier, you know, everything everything that came to you was kind of in theory and I'm sure there's some pickups maybe was done consistently. So things on that
>> the floating airmen that go like this. dancing. >> That was the thing we we were saying trying to backtrack and um >> the same signs. I think we talked about bringing them out. >> Maybe that's what I remember. >> Yeah, that too. Um
but we were saying that people could have those if they were running a sail, >> but we said they were running a sale consistently, then they could have those guys all the time. And we didn't want that. >> Yeah. Um, >> but what's odd about this is it says
that if it's a sign as advertising a reduced price or other promotional benefit associated with a product or service sold or offered on parcel that shall not con constitute a temporary sign which is we >> and I can I can ask him if that's a product of >> we might want to strike that since we
already covered that elsewhere and it would be hard to figure out what all we came up with but >> that would basically come up with it but this would >> that would exempt all those from the temporary validate everything. What I'm going to do is make sure this is definition is not the product of case law, which means you really can't change
it. Um, okay. >> Like all your your 1 through 11 up here. I'm confident that's resulted about those and those decisions. So, if that's something we can remove that last sentence, I will remove it. And if not, we will discuss the other things that we did earlier. >> Sounds fair.
>> Anything else on on that? Okay. Section three. >> Nope. You're done. No, section four. >> Oh, yeah. We got to go back up to 1214. Okay. But all this other section, >> that's the stuff with the >> Okay. So, now >> you can read it, but it's it's standard information.
>> It's all good. >> Um, where are we headed to? >> Uh, we're going to page 19. Section 121-4, certain signs exempt from permits. And we want to physically move this
section to after section one, the current section. >> We're talking about permits. So here for permits, >> this is how you get them and this is what's okay. Got it. >> And actually, like I said, if you want to combine it in there as a >> figure out the way makes most sense.
>> Um the signs are sign activities numerous section exempt permit. Um, all signs set forth in section in conformance with all other requirements of this chapter. All signs set forth in this section must be in conformance requires a chapter
paper. Okay. The copy message or sign face on changeable copy signs may be changed or placed without permit. However, such action must not enlarge or increase the sign surface area or sign structure area. So the letters themselves the
message line could be different sizes. This can't change the sign itself. Um must not convert well without a permit. This keep this is just what's exempt from permit. um
uh must not convert the sign to a prohibited new outdoor advertising sign and must not alter any element of the sign or sign structure covered by a term or condition of the sign permit or other development order. If in order to change or replace advertising copy message or sign face the supporting sign structure
must be unfassened, loosened or removed then a sign permit shall be required. >> So I'm trying to understand that we have a church sign. Let's just say you have you have plastic letters slide up in there. You have to remove those before you put ones in. Does that mean
>> that's the No, if you had to take the whole sign down to put those letters in there, put it back up, it would is what that says. This the actual sign structure that you're changing the copy on. >> So, okay. But if you can do it in place, no
problem. >> Do it in place. No problem. Okay. >> I'm trying to think If you I don't think there would be an issue with you have to actually take something down
that you >> question >> I'm trying to think is there any is there any type of sign that you would not want to have to get a permit for that you have to have to take down change your copy put it back up. >> Sure. If you had if you had a sign that you had to have a signed company come
out and pull it down, change the verbiage and put it back up. That's a that's a permittable thing. That's different. That's then you've got wires and things that connect and all that stuff versus just a backlit sign with plastic letters. >> I guess what I'm thinking of if we had a
let's say we had a metal sign, right, that said something, you couldn't change it. You're actually taking it off and replacing it. And the only thing that changed is actual wording that would require a permit. >> Veronica, if if you rent a space and
there's a sign that's been there since 1950 and it was recently used within the last whatever six months, do I need a permit to put my sign in there? >> Yes. >> Even if the sign is existing and same size and shape? >> Yes. >> Really? >> Do you enforce it?
>> We do. >> Okay. There's many other jurisdictions around the country that do not enforce that. If the sign's been there and you just change out the inside plastic piece, you know, from saying, you know, whatever Bob's used cars to CarMax, you know, as
long as inspected, >> it's the same sign. It's the same everything. The lights are the same. The only thing is not the same. >> How do I know it's the same sign? >> Uh, it's been there since 1972. But your business, it was a different
business before. >> Correct. I bought it with an existing sign in place. >> And you're refacing the sign. >> You're refacing the sign. You're not changing the size of it or anything to refacing. And this is not my example. I'm just using >> the minute you change it out and reface
it, it needs a permit. >> So that is not an enforcable act in many places around the country. >> What do you mean it's not enforceable act? It's not enforced. especially here because you're in a coastal. >> So let's let's be clear. Everything in code
should be being enforced. In reality, I get that. And if it's not being enforced, it needs to be taken out of the cold code. >> So, >> well, I love that Veronica is sitting here because I hear her constantly say, "We don't really go after >> then a code." It's we we shouldn't be selectively enforcing our codes.
>> I get it. That's and I agree 100%. I'll get with you on that. impressing that we're selectively enforcing things because if it's in a code, we should be enforcing it and if we don't want to enforce it, we should remove from a code. So, okay. Um,
this is probably okay I unless you all think we need to loosen that up a little bit. Where you at? >> On number one as far as the changing the sign. If you It says if in order to change or replace the advertised copy message or sign face, the supporting
sign structure must be unfassened, loosened, or removed. And so what I envision is if I've got a sign fastened to the thing, let's use this back in 1925, for example. Let's say that's a metal sign that's installed perman screwed to a structure.
>> And I want to put that exact same sign back instead. going to say back in 1926 all these things, right? And I just replace it. I had to unfassen it and replace it. I would need a permit for that based on >> and I think and Veronica will correct me if I'm wrong. And I think the idea being
I'm sure you would replace it correctly, but it needs to be inspected to make sure it is placed replaced correctly so it's structurally sound and you know >> what if it's a sign that you just open and pull down like a clear thing, change the letters, put it back up, you unfassen, >> right? Many of these signs have a little
like hinged thing on the side. You pull it out, you slide the thing out, and you slide the thing back in. It's a replacement. Kind of like these these >> Yeah. The the term unfassened is is >> unfassened seems something simple. >> Could be simple. Could be could be
ornate as well. But >> it sounds like what what Chris is describing is that the structure itself is not being taken apart. You're just kind of like opening the opening the cabinet door, pushing something in, and shutting it back. >> Well, that's a supporting science structure. I'm I'm just trying to understand his his example because my my thought is the second half of this is
the point behind it is to make sure whatever has been taken apart is put back together properly for safety purposes. But if it's a if it's a piece of you obviously don't know if it's something it opens up. It doesn't unattach. >> Here it here it is right here.
>> This is it. And this backlit structure >> has three pieces four pieces of trim around it. Right. and and and you could either on one side it might have clips that open up or something or it might even have screws. Take two screws out, pop it on the side slides out,
>> put a new one in >> and then it slides in the same structure. >> You're fastening the structure to >> I mean I get you're unfassening it but I mean >> loosening it whatever you >> to us you would still be refacing it. >> Okay. I've heard you say, and I'm not I've
I've heard you say that if you're just refacing it, but you're not changing the sign, we're not really looking at. Is that right or wrong? >> It's not that we're not looking at it. There's a lot of signs out there that we should be looking that we're not. Um, a lot of signs are just old and outdated. And people like to use the word
grandfathering it. There's no such thing really as a grandfathering and because there's nothing in our code that relates to that, you know. So, it's difficult to try to adhere to that when we don't really have that. >> I got you. And I appreciate that. >> But the minute you reface a sign, you
should apply for a sign. >> So, so let's use an example. The the marquee that we're talking about where there's like 10 10 little 12x3 slide in things in there. To get one of those slide in things in there, you've got to take a piece of trim off
somewhere. It's probably on the side. And you slide one out. You slide a new one in. I can tell you all over the city that happens constantly because these shops, the barber shops go in, the nail shops go out, this hamburger place, whatever. That's changing all the time.
>> And is it the same business or is it a new business? >> It's a different business. They've got they've come down and they've had to get a new business license. >> And if it's a different business, it should be a permitted. >> How do we know it's permitted? Is there is there a sticker on it or something that shows it was permitted? I'm just trying to understand.
>> We would look up the address. >> No. they catch a change in it, they're going to respect violation. If if they didn't they didn't see it. >> If it's a new business, we tell them when they're opening up a new business, don't forget to pull your sign permits for any signs that you're going to apply for.
>> What's that sign permit cost? >> Uh the base% 90 minimum. >> Yeah. A lot of them are under $3,000. So they're like $90 $92. So, in all these shopping centers where there's 15 retail places, when a new thing comes in there,
they pay you $9 to slide a thing of plastic in there. It says >> they should be >> you do that. >> I I Well, here this goes back this goes back to what I'm telling you. In the case where you're replacing a piece of plastic with one that came out,
>> I don't think you need a permit for I don't think you need a permit for it either. And and you and you don't except that this reads it must not enlarge or increase. If it doesn't enlarge or increase why if it does what
if it's smaller saying I think you you're changing the sign. Why? >> You would have to change your structure at that point. You'd have to change the mechanics of the whole support system. >> No, you would. I think if you're a new business in an existing business location, if
you're a new business, I don't think it's >> your microphone. Oh, >> sorry. >> Sorry. No, you I'm sorry. >> It takes a while to get used to that. She did that to me. >> I don't think that it's um a big thing to have to go get a signed permit, though. I mean, I would think that would be expected if I opened a new business,
even though the location's there, that I have a sign permit for my business because somebody originally had it for their business. And every time we cut a fee out of the city, we cut a permit fee or something, we're losing revenue. So eventually that's gonna add up.
>> Well, >> and we're looking for revenue. So if we cut 90 here, 90 here, 90 here, then where are we going to get? >> Keep in mind, that's that's a special fund that only supports itself. So it's not like they get $100,000 extra, they move it to general fund. They have to give that back. >> Well, what do they do with that money, though?
>> They they give it back. But the fe the permit fees are are to stay in the building department and fund the building department. But how many people whatever they take the fees away you will have to supplement with money from somewhere else too. >> So it's required where it goes. And I think that >> it's only if the building department is
an enterprise fund. Our building department is not an enterprise fund. So there there's a different there's a difference with that too. >> Our building department, my understanding our building department is what you take in you spend within the building department. And if you if you
if it gets too much, you have to parcel that back out. >> Well, that's where you reduce your permit fees and different things like that. But we don't we're not an enterprise fund. So, it's not anything that we bring in doesn't go to general fund either. That's that's not correct.
>> Right. It's not it's not a revenue generating entity. >> Correct. >> It's a self-sustaining fund. >> Correct. Right. >> And we can we can we can pump money into it from the general fund, but we can't take money out of it. So, it's like it's going to we're going to make any money. >> But it funds the building department.
>> Yes. They could hire another person the building department. >> I'm not looking to defund. I'm looking to I'm looking number one, I'm asking questions so I can understand the process because I won't be I'll be neutered here if I don't ask questions. You know, I won't be any good at all to any of you. I just might as well go do something else. >> So, let me ask you this. How many
permits for signs in the city do we get in the average month or week? Whatever. >> Hardly any probably a report. >> Do we ever do we ever do we do we have a running tally? I'm not asking you to do that. >> I think we could run a report. >> You you could like go in there and push
sign or Adam could tell us okay in the last 12 months sign permits added up to this. >> Yeah, we can run a report on that. [Music] But I I can't help make a decision. So I
know because >> I'm just thinking though, is it unfathomable that you would have a signed permit for your business even if it is just the little thing like I would assume if I was putting my business in replace of another per business that I
would have to get a signed permit. So to remove that, I don't understand the >> so removal of >> I can tell you where I'm at on it is if you know in the in the essence of being business friendly and all that, yes, it's it's not outside the realm of understanding that if I open a new business, there's going to be some
permanent fees I'd have to do. But if I'm strictly just changing the name of my business for the other one on the sign, do I really need to cough up $96 to do that? You know, it's it's I get that, but there's we, you know, I don't
like being I don't like fleecing businesses of money just because >> seem like fleeing to me, though. It just seems like it would be part of the setup cost, but I can't see how that >> 24 businesses. >> Now, if I was going to change that sign, like I wanted to change it from black to
red myself. Excuse me. Now, I'm choking on nut pieces. Okay. Um, if I wanted to just change that sign myself and I already had my own permit, I just wanted to change the color of it or something, then no. But
if it went from somebody's signed permit, like they they permitted it originally and it became my sign now, I can totally see having a permit for that. >> Well, keep in mind that right now, just to change the the message copy and all
that, you don't need a permit. That's what I'm saying. Regardless of whether you're a new business or not, you don't need that, right? >> Oh, okay. Well, then if it wasn't permitted initially, >> right? What but what the question is on this one is is that if you in order to do that, if you have to unfassen, loosen
or remove something, then then you do need a permit. And that's even if it's the same business. So, if you want to change, you know, sale today, that would require a permit if you have to unfassen, loosen, or remove something to do that.
I'm I'm still lost, I guess. >> I Here's what I just I'll just tell you what I think. Okay. When when I go to open a new business, >> it is unbelievable the amount of money it takes to do so. And so, we do our best to figure out any area we can shave down to make it less because we're
already bleeding capital like a stuffed pig. >> And and if I have a sign that's already there and I've paid for the building or financed or leased it and there's a sign there and I flip a switch and the light comes on, it works. I want to be able to go up there and take that existing thing out that was turned around and it's white on this side here. Slide that out
and slide in my new thing. You know, box haircuts $9.99, whatever it may be without business would not have a then your business would not have a sign permit. >> Well, the sign's been there for 42 years. I'm I'm talking about the existing sign. I'm talking about just replacing the facing of it. I'm not talking about replacing the sign.
Replacing the facing of it. I don't think I should have to have a permit to replace the facing of it. >> Yeah. So I I think again let's probably strike that language where it says if in order to change replace advertising copy miss sign face and supporting sign structure must be unfassened loosened or
removed then a sign permit required to take that out you don't have that problem if you're changing the sign size whatever lighted sign for a non-lighted sign or what then yeah permit obviously but if you're just changing the message
even if you have to loosen something to do soine I hired the local sign company. We spent almost 100 grand between whatever it was for digital signs, regular signs. I changed the whole thing. We peritted it. We did everything. That's all done. But in other cases where I've gone in broke as Chuck and I had no money at all and
I'm trying to get off the ground. If there's a sign there, I'm going to do the cheapest possible thing. I'm going to go down the sign shop and say, "Look guys, I can't afford $50,000, $30,000. How much is it just to replace that thing and put in, you know, Chris's used cars?" >> Okay. But isn't there a permit somewhere for that sign for the casing? The whole
the whole under somebody else's name, right? >> No, no, it's it's with the property. It probably with the property. It's probably addressed. It's probably attached to the address of that property. >> Most times you're going to try change your sign to something >> unique to you. You're just going to change the message. >> Like buying a car and you pay taxes on
it and I saw it to him and he's got to pay tax on it. He sells it to you and you got to pay taxes on it. So, you're paying everybody that has the signs got to pay for it, >> right? That's how it's set up. Now, my question is recommending that you strike that whole
sentence that includes if someone completely removes part of the supporting sign structure that they're not going to have to have permit that doesn't allow for inspection and if they don't put it back. I get I get the idea about it if you're just if you're like I said opening opening the
little side slot and you can pull it in and out and the structure is not being >> being modified. But if you if you get if you're allowing >> let's say you have the big sign and you have to remove the whole front and do whatever you do and then you're putting something back. How are we how is the
city going to ensure that is a safe sign? Now, it's now been removed like a part of the support structure has according to this sign supporting sign structure being removed. >> If you take that language out, they're not going to be inspected. It could be dangerous. >> That could be danger.
>> So, I'm going to give you plenty of examples. Okay? You know, an existing business goes out of business. Red Lobster, right? Their sign over there is three feet tall and is 10 feet wide and it's been there with lights in it. It's had the same 15 screws all the way
around the bezel of that thing and it's got the plastic insert that's made it through three hurricanes already. Right. >> Okay. The people that move in there don't have Chick-fil-A money to tear it down build. They're going in there on a shoestring budget >> and all they decide to do is to go to the local sign shop and say, "Look, I'm broke. I just need you just change out
the internal plastic piece." >> I understand. I understand that. But if they if they're if they're >> if the sign was weak from the hurricane and it wasn't inspected and we don't need a permit now and they reface it and that sign comes flying off it and hits motorist on 19.
>> These are some pretty >> if if my fence exactly >> if I need to replace my fence panel I don't need a permit for that. Now if I replace my fence I do. >> Same thing. Who does the building department need to crawl up my behind to make sure that I did everything right?
It it it's it's I'm going to make the I'll I'll say right now if you're replacing just what's it called Veronica the >> if you're refacing your sign and you're not messing with electric and you're not messing with the welding and all you don't need to permit it.
>> That's that's kind of where I was at. >> I I'm here to do what you wish. I made my point and >> that's why we're here decision. Yeah. Make your decision. You've heard the counter arguments. Do make your decision and let's move on. >> I just Can we at least wait to see what Adam says when he brings the numbers
back to see what number? >> It's not going to be a big number. >> It's not going to be that much, >> Christie. My bet is is it's not being enforced at all now. >> Okay. >> And it might it might right it fun. >> They never inspect it.
>> It also also causes it work to do, right? So if you don't >> Okay. So you have to work. You don't >> kind of relative. It's a wash basically. >> I'll speak of Fairfax County for you. This is a a county with millions of people living in it. I personally was in one building for 20 years. When I went
in there, that same sign was there from 1950. I just put a new face in it. The guy that came behind me put a new face. That same sign there. Same sign. >> It's a if it's like a sign to it. >> If if you wanted to Well, no. I I get that.
>> Okay. But if you wanted to if we could support your comment >> um because I know you're going if we if we just change this language to say it's okay to change the sign face as long as you don't modify the sign structure. I
love it. Perfect. >> Right. >> Don't modify the sign structure. If you loosen out fast, that's all okay. But if you have to modify the structure, add a brace, all that. Take braces out. That's different than what I was saying, but I can add what you saying. >> I'm saying the word removed. Okay. So,
that the sentence you want unfassened. Hey, Tony. Unfassened. I understand. You unfassen a a screw and you fasten it back. Okay. People should be able to handle that, right? Loosen. Again, you loosen the side panel and you push it in, but nothing's coming apart. But if you're allowing the removal of a part of
the supporting sign structure, >> correct? assuming that person and that's could be removal of of the whole front part of the front whatever and you're allowing it to be put back by me. Let's just use me. I remove it. I put it back. >> I'm not going to allow you.
>> We need him to come inspect it. Like that's my point. Like if if you're allowing removal of part of the support structure and and replacement of whatever was removed without inspection, you might be asking for a bad situation. things things may not be put back properly and you want inspection is my
thought but I >> we we could do that if you want to just take out unfassen and loosen and leave removed >> I want to leave the whole thing but I but I understand what you guys are saying if you're if it's you undo a screw and you put something in you put the screw back is that really need an inspection
>> you're like pulling down a front and just changing letters and then you're putting the front back up okay fine >> and I don't even know if he agrees with me but I I at least think allowing removal without inspection how it's been replaced to make sure it's safe um I think is dangerous. >> My question is is how are you going to
meet the wind loads by just changing the face and not having anything looked at to verify? Because you got to remember if you're changing the face did they put it back in place the way it was? If not, now it becomes blowable debris in a storm.
Then Bob's mom gets hit with the sign. >> This is from 1950. It's not just changing a face and being done. You're still having to meet wind load requirements. >> I mean, we're talking about a pre-existing sign that's been there
since 1982. >> Yep. >> And it's probably had through the years, it's probably had its plastic guts blown out of that thing two or three times over the years, you know, and and and because we're on the coast and we're in Hurricane Alley. But but what I'm trying
to do is try I'm trying to uh relieve the burden for new people coming in. And and I'll use an example for you, Tony, is is like if you have a monument signed in a shopping center where there's 10 stores. Yeah. >> Those little panels get slid in there and they get slid out multiple times because these little mom and pop places
go in and out. And do they need a a signed permit? In my eyes, no. Okay. For sliding the permit thing in, sliding one in. They don't need one. So now let's get them to assign this three feet by five feet. Same sign's been there forever. It's got twoinch overlap on all sides. They got the sign shop knows the
the the the necessary product to go in there. They go over here to Port Richie signs and they say, "Okay, I need new face on my sign." And they slide one piece out, slide another one in. I don't want the burden, it's just my opinion, and I'm only one person sitting up here saying this, but I don't want the burden
on that dealer or whoever that vendor is or whoever that person is to have to go through that $90 process when they're already sucking wind on everything else trying to get a touch. So, and I understand what you're saying, but you still, like I said, you still have
to look at no matter what they do, you have wind load requirements. those sliding in and out on a monument sign. That's a totally different design and built a different way to accept something just sliding in and sliding out. Face changes that would fall under
for say an occupancy change. Face changes are bolted in place. They don't just slide in. example of a face that you're referring to cuz I I'm I'm picturing a 3x5 sign that's got the
same exact It's got the same slot that it slides into and slides out of. It's just it's just a little bit bigger and it slides in. >> Doesn't slide in and slide out. >> They have to pull the face off. The flange has to come off for the sign to go in place to go back up to meet the
wind load requirements that had been put on the sign. You also have to remember that cabinet is a UL design, Underwriters Laboratory. It's not just something that somebody came up with a design. It's been designed to meet Underwriters Laboratory
for a fire cabinet, >> right? So, pre-existing signs, what I'm referring to, >> they're all they're all even pre-existing is still going to be the same. They're still an Underwriter's Laboratory sign. Are you when when somebody goes to get a sign permit to replace a basin, you're asking them for a UL label? No, I look at it when I'm
out there. And if it's not out there, then they get me a label for it because you have to remember it's hooked to a metal pole. So, if we don't have a UL rating here, how do I know that that cabinet has been
designed so that nobody gets shocked in a rainstorm if they touch that pole? Because the cabinet has to be bonded to the pole that has to be bonded to the ground. You're talking about grounding with electric. Now it's different. That's >> that's what's
>> That's not what I'm talking. I'm talking >> Yeah, but it's still in the sign. >> I understand. But I'm not talking about getting the electrics at the sign, touching them. They're all still the same. They've been running on the same timer forever. I'm just about sliding a piece in and pulling a piece out. >> But it doesn't just slide in. That's what I'm saying.
3x5 is going to be bolted in place because if it just slid in, it's going to slide out. >> No, but it's got it's got a flange on the side. It's got a it's got a L-shaped flange on the side that holds it in. >> Some do. Yeah. >> Most have an angle flange that is pulled off. The sign face is put in place and
then the flange is bolted back into place. >> Here, Tom, let me ask you this question. So, if you see my screen, I have a sign here. Triangle dip. And I want to replace that with bump.
All right. Same sign. I have to take these two screws out to take it down. And I bolt the other one back on. Based on this code, I need a permit to do that. >> No, based on this code, I >> do sign. >> Well,
I get that, but it can't pull anything out on Tony. >> I'm trying to be truthful. >> That's a DOT sign. >> That's right. Pretend it's not DOT sign. >> Okay. >> Pretend that's in front of his business. >> We're talking about a dip of ice cream >> or
bowl. We'll change the bowl. Right. Again, it's a simple sign pole sign. You have to basically unbolt it and put it back up. It's you're replacing the face. You're actually replacing the whole sign itself. But as long as the sign is not saying the structure is not being modified, still on pole, all you're
doing is unfassening those bolts and fastening it back with new with new copy. So based on the code, the way it's written is we cannot do that. >> But that sign that you're showing right now is a directional sign. That's not a sign
sitting in front of a business that's advertising something. >> But it could it could be. And I'm trying to make I'm trying to simplify the >> ice cream shop. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not a DOT sign and it's not yellow and that there's a bowl of ice cream on that pretend,
>> you know, we're not sliding the letters DIP in there and changing letters. We're actually in order to change that face. It's a it's it's it's a printed sign. We're just taking one piece of metal triangle or uh or square and replace it with another square. But we do have to
loosen it, unfassen it to take it off and put the other one on. >> So now what do you have? What do you have going on there? somebody that's probably not licensed. >> Well, I would >> to do that. >> Well, I would mention say you would need a license to take two bolts out and bolt it back on. >> Let me think of something else that I I
hadn't thought of before. I was thinking about removing, you know, Yeah, you can remove the screw, put a screw back, but the new sign has to be of a certain quality, I would assume, a certain material. Is that part of your inspection or I don't know the answer to that. Like you inspect, not just is it structurally put in, right? Is is it the
right material? There's there's numerous things involved with it. >> But I can understand where you're trying to go with trying to simplify it for customers, but you still have to look at the other side of it that anything that you do in our wind zone, which is 147
miles an hour. Imagine what that sign would do if it becomes blowable debris. >> That'll take a head off and they're going to not know it before it's done. So, I think something to think about is like Chris would do it the right way. He would go to the sign guy. He'd say, "This is the kind of sign
I need. I want to replace it." And I get that. You have to also think about someone that, you know, trying to save money. They get something that's not the right material and we don't have an inspection. >> I mean, it's could it could cause some problems. I think we've done a lot for
businesses and I don't think that this thing right here is something that we should cut corners on. >> Can I read one thing real quick and then we move on to >> um sign refacing involves updating the visual elements of a sign while keeping
the existing structure intact. This process is often less evasive, quicker, and more cost effective than a complete sign replacement, especially if the sign structure is in good condition. Um key points uh about sign refacing. It is
ideal for signs that are faded or peeling. I've got a sign in Winchester that is fading. The sun has eaten up the they actually use vinyl over top of lexan in color to give you color. So over five year period that stuff's just smokes. And what they do is they
literally go back to the original plans and they print out new lexan put new vinyl. They come out and they take one letter out and put one letter in. You know that's refacing the sign. based on based on some of these. Yes, sir. >> Okay. But they're just replacing letters >> or or Yeah.
>> If they're replacing the panel, >> why would they replace the panel? >> It because there's a different name on it. It's an it's it's a name of exist. Somebody else was there before. It's called >> I'm just I'm going off of what your example was, right? >> So, if they're replacing a panel like you said that's fake,
>> right? >> What is the ultraviolet rays done to that sign? Well, it's a metal sign. It's got plastic on the inside of it. So, the metal is still the same. The aluminum is the same. All the screws are the same. It's just the only thing that's changed is the plastic has UV faded.
>> Okay. So, now if you just stick plastic back up, what have you got? >> I've got signs. Five years from now, it's going to be faded and looking like crap. I'm going have to replace it in five years. >> But you still have to look at the fact that is the plastic put over top of the metal or is the metal pulled out and a
plastic put in it? Well, it's a metal sign. It's got a plastic insert. It's got a metal box. Yes. And it's and on and and that plastic letter goes up in there. And then you put the it's aluminum is the trim ring around it with screws in it.
And that's and that those are 36 inch letters or 48 inch letters. What's the difference between that and the sign? Not much. The size of whatever the square thing is around it. I'm not trying to be difficult with my I told Veronica this to start with. What my job is to ask questions and my job is to try
to simplify code to get us to a point where we're really businessfriendly. Not we don't just talk about it. We actually >> I mean everything that I have said I can tell you threequarters of the state of Florida enforces >> because of the fact that when loading
global debris >> that under the building code is the health, welfare and life safety of the public. We have to look at this sign sitting here. If it blows apart, where is that debris going to go? Somebody walking down the street gets hit with
it, they can get killed with it. We So, we have, you know, my side is we have to verify what they're using, what's going in place. If the way you're wanting to do it, none of that's going to be looked at
>> just for refacing, not for sign replacement, >> right? That's what I'm saying. Even for refacing, people still look at what the material is going in there to verify that it's going to meet the wind load requirements because it's just plastic going in. Is
it thick enough? Who knows? And and and I greatly appreciate your expertise, Veronica. Were you able to get that number that I had asked about as well? >> Yeah, since October, we've done 10 sign permits. >> $900. >> Uh $5,600
>> since October. In the last year, we've done 10. >> We've done 10. >> 56. >> Six new and four refaced or replaced. >> Less than one month. So, I be I beg to differ. This just me saying because I'm paying attention and I'm sure you all
appreciate that I'm not sitting up here rubber stamping everything because that helps us get better as a city. It really does, you know, and so do so does your input on these things. It helps me understand which is what I want to do. We got four refaces that happened in the city since October.
four. We're not enforcing that. We're just not. People are doing that. There's that means that there's probably 75 rebates that have taken place and we've only actually got paid for four of them. So, we're not enforcing it. So, we're not
>> That is We'll come out and change it on the weekend. >> No, no, I'm with you. No, no, I'm not disagreeing with you. You and I will definitely speak the same name on that. But what you said, mayor, earlier, if we're not enforcing it, why is it in here? That's all I'm saying. >> But I will say that that's not a blanket
statement you should live by. Things are enforced when they're caught. You can't enforce something. You don't code can't violate you. They don't see it. They don't have witnesses for it. We can't prosecute it. So, there's other things going into it. You have one code enforcement officer, one building official, and the very good help of Veronica when she's out there with them.
They can't be everywhere. So just because right now I know I know she she gets them but for right just because this year that may not be something they focused on well they were focusing on substantial damaged homes and we're still working on that you know worrying about audits and FEMA and FDM and all that stuff. So just because something
hasn't been enforced right now when we're talking about it to me is not a reason not to have it in your code. If it's something you don't want to enforce and it's a a smart decision for the well-being of your your city that's a different conversation. that that let me clarify that's that's what I said is is
if if if we don't need or want to enforce something because we don't think it's relevant, we should remove it. Not that if it's in there and we're not enforcing it, we should remove it because we're not enforcing it. Make sense? So, and this this is the question I ask. If we want to enforce every
unfastening, loosening, removal of a sign, then we need to keep it in here and we need to enforce it. >> Tony, can I ask you a question? Sure. What do you think if we brought in two or three local sign companies in here? These guys are 35 year veterans in the
field. They put in thousands of signs. These are the these are the go-to guys when it comes to signs. What would they tell us right now? What would they tell us about the refacing the slide in or just you know 15 >> that it's a pain in the butt to have to pull a permit to go out there and tear a
sign apart to put a piece of plastic in. That's exactly tell us that there was a safety issue by >> They're not going to tell you there's a safety issue. >> They're going to tell you exactly what I just said that it's a pain to have to go
get a permit to reface a sign. I've been in it since 1997 and I've heard >> I respect your opinion story. >> Yeah, I respect your opinion. I'm just trying to >> and and they're going to say that any permit. >> That's right. Regardless about permits, >> no, I meet a lot of professionals. They're like, "No, you got to have
permits on this stuff." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But that's a rarity. >> Nobody's gonna say, "Man, we need a permitting process." They want to do their work. They don't They don't It's the pering process is the city's role to make sure stuff is done right. >> You know, do stuff right. It depends on
who's doing the job. And I'll leave it at that and we'll move on. Thank you for your expert opinion. I really mean that. All right. So, what do we do with this? >> I'm okay with leaving it in there. It's fine. >> Good. Okay. Based on Tony's description of what could happen and if we're not
monitoring it, the Mickey Mouse. >> I mean, and granted, you're not supposed to take what could happen, but I have to look at what is reality. I mean, Milton come through. What do we
have? I mean, we had horizontal rain. How many signs were blown out? >> It was more than horizontal. It was going up like this, >> you know. How many signs did you see blowing out on Highway 19? Almost all of them. That's right. So to me, that's how I look at it is that was blowable debris
that if nobody was if there would have been somebody, even a homeless person, walking down the street at the time one of them signs blew out, it could have messed them up bad. >> Well, the signs were permitted at one time. >> That's right. >> All right. So, what what do we accomplish? I guess
>> it all depends at what time and when they were permitted. If they were permitted under the 1997 standard building code, it was only 110 m an hour. >> So they were designed for 110 miles an hour. Now we're 147.
So you have to look at when it was actually permitted to show. I have had some where I knew the sign was permitted an old coat and I've asked them, "Have you run the numbers to verify that this cabinet will be able to support this new
face that you're putting in?" How do you get those numbers? >> It's all out of chapters 27 through 31 of ASCE 722. >> So, who creates that? You said somebody UL code earlier. I'm like trying to >> UL UL code is for electrical.
>> Okay. >> So label is an electrical thing and the electrician gets that. >> Yes. >> So it's not the owner is not required to go out there and find some. >> It's the usually it will be a sign company. They pay UL to get those stickers to put them stickers on and
those stickers have a serial number. >> Gotcha. And they go to that sign. >> That goes to that sign. >> Gotcha. Okay. All right. Let's let's just leave it. That's not a big deal really. >> Um number two, temporary signs. Three flags displayed on flag poles.
Memorial signs or tablets names of buildings and dated correction when cut into any masonry surface or when constructed of bronze or non-combustible materials. That' be like a building sign was built 1945 or whatever. That's >> I think you have one. >> Yeah.
>> Uh in non-residential districts, two directional signs per driveway provides that sign shall be located on or pertaining to that partial private property. Each sign shall not exceed four square feet sign service surface area and 30 inches in height. If such sign is to be illuminated then
electrical permit shall be obtained. Um, we talked about this from solar perspective or whatever that >> did but solar earlier and I think if it was solar you didn't weren't worried about it but
I can make a note and look when I if such sign is to be wired I would just say that I will I guess solar's wired too is here. >> I don't >> It's wired, but it's wired to a battery pack. It's not wired to
>> Yeah. >> exempts mean exempting solar. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The electrical permit shall be obtained >> on a street sign on the highway. And I've seen them like when you drive down a highway, they've got arrows that point
and this thing flashes. There's no power going to it, but there's a battery and there's a solar panel. Is that a permitable >> thing you have to pull? You don't have to have an electrical power because it doesn't hook up to the grid. >> Okay. Um >> you'll see a lot of lights like that for parking lots and that.
>> Okay. >> Will be solar so that they don't have to hook up to the grid. They don't have to have a power pole. They just charge and then they run at night. >> Gotcha. Okay. Dress signs may be placed with a one foot set back from the rightway. Such signs meet. Where you at?
Are you on three? Number five on page 20. starts in non-residential >> and non-residential districts. >> Okay. Um we make some changes on signs and rideway. I don't sign
the square footage sign shall not be counted as part of the maximum square. >> Say five. Didn't we say five feet set back? Yeah, >> when we were talking before we said five foot set back. This one says one. Yeah, it's five. We did
>> these are smaller signs, right? This is like a >> Oh, directional. Yeah, >> these are just directional signs. >> So, I don't I don't know if that makes a difference. You have to be four square foot in in height. Yeah, that's not small. It's not small.
>> Yeah, >> sounds >> um with directional sign per driveway. Is that like in and out? Mhm. >> Your definitional sign means a permanent or temporary sign which is used
principally for the purpose of indicating the direction or location of an object, place, event or area included but not limited to those signs which indicate avenues of ingress and eress from particular premises and bearing no additional advertisement beyond the name of the object, place or area. Directional signs shall not contain
names, address or occupants of tenants. Enter here. Exit this way. That's what I'm picturing. at least a one foot set back from the rightway, not in a rightway. >> Where's Where's he? >> There you go. >> Okay, man. I got a question I want to
ask Tony to ask. Maybe this is a great one if you don't let me interrupt for a minute. If you go from Newport Richie to Port Richie to Hernando County and in your position, you could be inspecting stuff and all over the place. Is there a standard code in the in that goes across
the whole thing or do people make up their own stuff as they go? And you've got to enforce whatever it's made up of. >> Most of it is made up through their land development codes other than in your engineering department. Hernando County engineering department sets all of that up and that's their requirements as far
as for in-n-out signs, directional signs, but yet they're all have to be engineered >> as far as stay in place to not blow through the wind. >> Newport Richie, I'm not sure here. That's why I'm wondering this has got to be hard on you because it's each area
and their code that you've got to understand and interpret. >> Yeah, it's the same right now as far as with zoning requirements. I have zoning requirements here I have to understand with them in Readington Shores and Readington Beach. They both have different things even though there's
only one city between the two. >> But I have to know all of those also. It makes it hard to be a part-time building official going into multiple places because you really just don't walk the same walk every day. It could change from day to day. Everybody's different.
>> Thank you. Number six, in residential districts, one non-illuminated identification sign used to identify the address of the address not to exceed two square foot and sign service area. Um, do we want to say non- illuminated? >> I don't think you need to because sometimes your address sign is eliminated.
>> I was going to say we we've addressed this. I already have notes. We struck out naan and I have address brightness next to it. We talked about it. >> Yeah, we did. >> Have a sign for >> I've seen some pretty cool ones actually that >> Well, and this is this is exempt from
permits is what this is talking about. >> But eliminated with uh so with solar you don't need you don't need. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Uh summer 71 temporary sign. So, do we strike that? >> What?
>> The non is been I've already made a note to take >> Okay, cool. >> And I just added the solar comment, so I'll tweak something new. >> Thank you. Number seven, one temporary sign may be placed per street frontage subject to the following restrictions. Um, hold on a second because
>> let me just talk that's that's in conflict with >> because we we started talking about this and then we >> the other one was in non-residential districts. Are you talking about five? >> That's non-residential and this is residential.
>> Well, well, no. This number seven is actually non-specific. You got Well, you got residential and non-residential A and B. But it's saying one temporary sign in place. We like an election sign for example. You can have >> used to be two per issue.
>> We talked about this somewhere else. Referring to >> Oh yeah, we got down to the end. Um I was just talking about the number because you can have more than one. >> I want to say it was three. used to be two per issue and I think it
changed to three I want to say it was three. >> We didn't talk about this because it talks about one additional sign being put on the waterway. So if you have a for sale sign out front, you can put one in the backyard on the waterway as well. >> All right. So
section 12110 which is mostly new addresses temporary signs and within that subsection three has district specific provisions. Subsection A under that has residential
districts up to three temporary signs are permitted in residential districts provided no sign shall exceed that certain size. So that's different than what we just read, isn't it? >> Yeah. and non-visual same thing up to three. >> So I'll make those start and
back. Okay. Resident owners where the property being advertised or developed has a street frontage of less than 5 feet maximum four and a half square foot in sign service area and res two maximum six square foot sign service area
one additional real estate sign place on our side property. Yeah. So I think this kind those up to make sure they >> Yeah. And like I said this is just what you don't need a permit for but it it should probably like three and
everything else probably okay I guess. uh non-resident district with maximum 13 square foot sign service area such signs shall not exceed 10 ft in height. Okay. Anything else on that? Uh eighth is window signs when the sign covers 50%
or less of the window. >> That's right. Can I take you back? >> Yes. >> All right. So, the non-residential one you just read for non-residential had a height limit of 10 feet. >> 10 feet. >> Prior section that we already talked about for non-residential
eight. They're different. So, I need to know if you want eight feet or 10 feet. And you left eight feet before. So if you like eight keys, >> 10 ft is probably fine. Guess that probably 10 foot
temporary 10 ft is fine. >> Yeah. >> And the residential >> residential is >> six. What's the same? So So we'll put non-residential to 10. >> Yeah. And it says maximum 32 square foot and signed service area. What um do we
have what's sign service area? >> Uh this has cannot residential is cannot exceed four square ft in sign surface area. Non-residentidential 32 square ft in sign surface area.
>> Okay, >> that's that's >> So since we're changing that to three, I just want to make sure that we don't have three smaller signs and do 32. Each one's 32 because this this is in this is in respect to one sign, >> right?
>> Whereas if we change to three, we probably need to change and I don't know if that's cumulative or if that's talking per sign, but we probably need to call that out. This is per sign. >> You want each sign to have the 3200 ft surface sure that's clear. >> That's the idea. >> Can you can you describe that again to me? Non-residential districts.
A sign being no more than 32 square feet. Temporary sign could be temporary >> 32 feet. Okay, thank you. >> Like the car show signs. >> Yep. Got it. Yep. Yep. >> Okay. Window signs. Now I got something
on this. So PL open this up to 50%. I think it should be um 60 because a lot of the the standard perforated vinyl stuff is 6040. 40 you can see through 60 you can't. So, you think you should be allowed 60% coverage
on the window? >> Some of them are 7030, but you start to get really less. But I think 50 is a little too restrictive. I would recommend 60. I think that's kind of the standard. 6040 is kind of the standard. You get >> 60 that you can't see through. >> I like that. I think that's fine. >> Yeah, it's like a perfect vinyl. Like
right over here, that's 6040. The uh at the t-shirt shop over here. >> I think you should be able to see in the windows more. >> I mean, we're in the middle of hot summer here. This sun blar through and just smokes. Again, if you if if you have blind shades, they can be closed all the time. You can't see through
anything. >> Remember that this is just one that doesn't require a permit. So if >> right >> would mean if if you want more to be limited completely. >> I'm okay with the 6040. >> I'm okay with 7030.
>> I'm okay if you block your whole window. >> I don't like the windows all blacked out. >> You know, the chiefs are like, "Please don't black out the windows." >> I don't like the windows blacked out. They're not blacked out. It's like a perforated. >> If you can't see in, >> you just got to get up close to see in.
>> Yeah, there's the problem. Why don't you just run on up there and look in the window and see who's got the clerk down behind the counter >> with a gun? >> Big safety issue, especially if we're getting called there to a call. We don't see what's going on inside. We'll be walking to an ambush. >> 40%'s a lot to see through that.
>> 40% is 10% less than 50%. A lot of it's the positions, too, because if they position at eye level, then it really doesn't matter if it's 10%. You're still not going to be able to see compared to the top or the bottoms. >> And like Eric said, you can close your windows off, blind shades, curtains, or anything else you want to as well.
>> Yeah. In your house, it's a little bit different story though because then we can back off around you where if there's a business and actual people are in there getting hurt, we got to go. >> Right. Right. But a business will still be able to close the blinds. They work and they do and they do quite often. these businesses also with these temporary signs because it's some
advertisement thing. They leave them more than temporary, you know. >> Well, that's that's another good point. That's another thing. Windle signs, we're talking about the perforated vinyl, whatever. That's not temporary. It's per question. planning and zoning
did talk about when we had some of the business owners come in a cumulative percentage of your windows, not just one window at 50%, a cumulative of all the windows. >> We talked about that without being covered. Like that got too complicated.
>> Yeah. >> The other side of it too is if we look back at our gambling rooms, every single one of them was totally covered on every >> Yeah. But that's different. Cumber versus P. >> What about what about like where it is on the windows cuz like let's just say a carry out, you know, you want to be able
to see in and see back what's going on at the register and right there, you know. So what if they do it on the other end of the building where the milk is? Nobody cares about it. I know that's restrictive and how would you It'd be harder to like maybe enforce that or not, but you need to be able to see in
the window where you need to see in the window. >> Yeah. Windows aren't necessarily for the outside people. They're for the people on the inside. >> Well, if you're an outside people that's concerned about the inside, then yes. >> I'm I'm I'm sticking with this one. I
It's just a matter of principle for me. >> Yeah. >> Well, >> you need to be able to see in the window of business >> from a from an officer perspective or fire department perspective. Absolutely. It would help if the windows were wide open, you could see. I I get that and it's it's it's safety issue, but you know, you got to be able to
advertise and this is a very very common thing that to be quite honest with you is not enforced across the entire state. You drive and I I know I looked at this when a chamber did theirs and everybody has this 25% in there and nobody's adhering to it and nobody's forcing it.
>> I know this a losing battle for me, but I can't I can't back off. I'm staying right where I am. I'm not backing off it. >> So, I like to look in the windows. Um I I >> your training, >> you know, I I think 60% is is is plenty. >> I'm 60 as well.
>> All right. 60. >> I'm 60. >> I hate it. >> I know. Sorry. >> You I put them on your house. >> I lost that one. >> But I come by your house and see nothing blocking your windows. Okay. You won't.
Um, and so I'm not sure why this is window signs here. Um, because this would be like if I'm putting um like a a truly temporary sign in there, but when you would fix it the vinyl to that um it's permanent. So I
don't know how we >> deal with that. >> Let me back up here. This is addressed somewhere else. >> So I think our permanent >> should also be 60. No, exactly. I think they should be >> make them mimic each other. Yeah. You're currently under 1213. Window signs that
do not comply with the section we're in now are not allowed. They're prohibited. >> Say it again. >> Right now, well, right now, >> if this code passes, based on what we've talked about, window signs are prohibited unless they con conform with
what you're looking with what the section you're looking at right now. >> Well, this section here is not don't need a permit. You don't need a permit, but you can't. There's no permitting of a bigger one right now. Your code does not allow for them but for this provision. That's the only way you can
have a window sign currently. >> So, can I cover up six? Based on what we're talking about right now, can I cover up 60% of my windows and leave 40% open? >> 20 25% now. And technically, you got to change it >> cuz it's temporary. Temporary. >> It's a problem we have in our code with
window signs because not all window signs are temporary. >> Yeah. a lot because of the sun here, because of the glare and all that stuff, people use that filtered. >> Yes. Tint. >> Well, no, it's it's No, it's not tinting. It looks like >> it acts like >> it's got little holes in it. >> Yes. Perforated violet >> and it keeps the heat out is what it does.
>> It serves both purposes. >> Okay. Window sign is defined as a sign which is painted on, attached to, or visible through a window excluding displays of merchandise and which identifies or advertises activities, services, good, products or products available on the parcel. Okay, so that's what that's how you define it. Section
1213 of your proposed new code would say that window signs are not allowed unless they comply with the provision you're talking about now, which would now say they cannot cover more than 60%. So there's no other provision currently that you could permit
for more coverage. Is that answering what we're talking about? >> So wheel signs it Yeah. So it didn't address temporary or not. I apologize for that. >> It may have previous >> regard. Yeah, I think it did. So I think we're good. So basically we we can have if we change it to 60 you can have
window sign at 60% >> permit that per minute. >> Yeah. I think good. Next >> temporary correct? >> No it's all >> temporary permit. There's no distinction. >> It doesn't say >> and when I go through and I find it is
I'll bring that out. But >> see something about temporary something. >> It could be in another section. You know they keep repeating everything. >> Okay. We struck 10. 11. >> Do we know? >> Uh, exactly. >> Number nine. Uh, statuto no trespassing
or no dumping signs not exceeding one sign every 500 ft long boundaries of in each corner. Uh, four in number per acre and no one sign exceeding two square foot sign service. >> Wait, wait, wait. So you can't have one but every 500 foot and no more than four doesn't make
sense. >> I don't like it. >> I don't either because some of these areas they dump in 500 ft leaves you like moonshot money. You should be able to pop if you have a piece of property and they're dumping crap there. You should be able to put one up every 30 feet. You know, we're not I'm not talking about just a little sciences.
>> Well, a football field is 300 foot. So that's a long >> That's what I'm saying. Is this commercial or desk? >> Nobody probably has even 500 ft. >> Non-residential. >> This is non residential. Okay. >> Uh yes, you're right. Not residential.
That's still a long ways. >> Trying to look at the statue of my computer. >> Four in number per acre. >> Yeah, that's not very much. >> Yeah, I think I think it should be more like every 50 feet, you know. >> And no one sign exceeding two square feet. What about that law where they if
you paint your trees purple like every so do you know about that? >> No. >> You got to look that up. And it means no trespassing. >> You I figured you'd know. >> Frank, do you know about purple trees? >> I don't know about purple trees. >> Talk to him. It's a >> never heard about a thing. >> Tony, how do you know about purple
trees? >> Because because we read >> because I've been through 60 different jurisdictions in the state of Florida. >> Okay. >> Oh, it's a Florida thing. Purple trees is a Florida thing. I don't think it is, but I've been through a lot. Especially if you get up north Florida, >> it's like stay out.
>> If you see purple, >> those signs are like what? They're 10 by 12. You know what I mean? They're >> No, these aren't purple. They just paint the tree. >> I know. Listen, I'm learning something today. >> I've seen a painted pink or purple and I've seen them just with a big X on it >> and then you go down about 15 or 20 feet
and there's another one. >> When you see them with an X on them where I'm at, they cut them down. >> Well, I know. Yeah. 500 ft is statuto >> that's what's required >> required >> for it to be no
>> trespassing break 430 and here it says note >> not not more than 500 ft apart >> but you're telling me it's a you have to have them at least every 500 ft >> it have let me read the words signs play okay to be posted signs placed not more
than 500 feet apart along and at each corner of the boundary of the land. So, not more than 500 feet apart. This says >> not exceeding everything. >> That's 500 ft. Not more than 500 ft. >> That was statutory.
>> 8101 has to do with posting posted land. >> Tony, I know you've been around a long time. Have you ever heard the word fenistration? >> You win today. >> You're the only festration. You're never finished. >> No, I'm not
>> opening. >> It's opening. It's the glass openings in the structure. >> Because you have reflective and you have >> uh you factors, solar hate gain factors all through glass and through doors.
>> I did not know. >> Yeah, that was a total new one on us. >> Number new number nine is the trespassing. No, [Music] >> it's actually no trespass and no dumping zone. So that's a Florida state code. >> We can't for state code.
>> We can't make it more. We can make it more restrictive. We can't make it more >> less. >> We can't say every 200 feet. >> So that's Florida statute 500. All right. Easy. Easy. >> So that's like next change. Well, now
the the what's after in the the red that says 810111 the 4 in number per acre. I don't see that in here. I haven't read every part of it. Um that might be something you can work with if you care about >> just scratch that then if you 500 ft then may make acre
right if you're 500 feet limitation. >> Um >> I think you just leave it alone. Move on to the next one. >> No, leave it where it is. >> That's fine. I I thought you guys then we could change that. Listen, I have to read all that. >> Tony and I think that you need to sign every 50 to 75 ft. This has got 500.
Like I said, you can dump out of couches and chairs. >> Well, so what I'm saying is is >> I agree with Tony. >> Do you want to keep the four per acre or do you want to scratch four per acre? >> Well, is that part of the code? >> Not that I've seen so far. >> It says here for statute 810,
>> right? See, that's the be. So, the way this reads and that's why I think it's not. So it says for, you know, statutory no trespassing or no dumping signs not to exceed one every 500 ft along boundaries of and at each corner of the posted property in accordance with Florida statute 810.011. So that tells
me that first part is from Florida statute. What comes after that? >> Did you have it right here? >> What does it say? You just read it, right? The part after that is not true in this is not being attributed to the statute. So I don't think it's part of the statute. It's pretty long. I haven't read it all. But if I can read it, if
it's not there, I can take it out unless you want it. >> And does have it does have a size, too. >> The Florida statute for enforcement for us, it has to be posted at least once every 500 ft. So you're on a five line. So now if the ordinance says it has to be at least 500, you have to be exactly 500. Otherwise, we can't enforce it.
>> But the state law says it has to be posted at least once every 500 ft. >> She says the opposite. She says no more. You can't have it any closer than 500 >> and that needs >> 500 feet. 500 ft. >> That's the minimum required by state
statute. >> It's saying that saying the signs cannot be more than 500 ft apart. >> Wrong. Yeah. >> Hold on. Cannot be more than 500 ft. >> Signs place not more than 500 ft apart along and at each corner of the boundary. >> So they can't be
closer. >> Yeah, they can. Yeah, that's more stringent. >> No way. Not exceeding one sign every 500 feet. >> She read the code. >> Ours is wrong. >> I don't care. That's what it says right here. >> Yeah, ours our code is wrong. Yes. >> Not exceeding one sign every 500 ft.
That means no more than one every 500 ft. That's what that means. Our code it doesn't line up with. So we got to fix that. >> Our code is wrong. >> Our code is well >> it is wrong. >> Because this is Yeah, >> we're making it more restrictive, right?
Not exceeding. Yeah. So our code is not not wrong and it's more restrictive which we can do but we we don't want to do that. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. I'll make sure to me it's saying the same thing with different words but I will make sure it's done for the code. >> Yeah. >> I mean for the statute
>> but I'm I'm tired and that's what happens. I'll make sure >> position of if you get it within a foot wrong >> and I'll talk to the chief think there's something else >> enforce the actual 500. We'll make sure it's right. I think it's just the systematic awards the way that's being
ordered by them saying at least >> you're not going to charge anybody for having one every 50 ft right >> I'm not but they only have one every 750 ft I can't actually charge them with trespass correctly so force it >> all right number 10 non-commercial onsite signs including section which are
less than four square foot sign service area and 30 inches in height provide they are not displayed for more than 14 consecutive days or more than 28 days per year Um directional signs relating construction loaded are located within the development where the building development permit approvals have been
issued by the city and not to exceed four square feet sign surface and 30 of height. 12 one construction sign per street footage uh provided the final condition of met not illuminated. Such signs shall not so be authorized only when active
building taking place. Such signs shall contain only on-site advertising. All such signs shall be removed and made performance chapter once instructor obser issued. The height size of all construction signs shall be limited according to the following restrictions. So in residential where property being
constructed has a street frontage of less than 500 ft. A maximum 4 and a half foot sign service area uh through six feet. Good. And then where a property being constructed has three fun 500 feet or more maximum eight square foot sign
service not 6 feet height in all their districts. Uh maximum eight square foot sign should not exceed 10 feet. So that's that's the same probably being your frames two or three feet or more.
Okay. I think that's good. You guys agree? >> Yes. >> All right. 13 not two non-illuminated um temporary signs for each residential non-resident parcels not to exceed 8 square feet in area.
>> Um so this is should be three right? >> Yeah. Seems like we said that like three or four times. I'll check it and see if it's duplicative duplicative or make sure it's consistent. and 14. In honor of designing districts, one sandwich sign for business
establishment to be obser sidewalk no further than 5T for the manage door structure establishment and with a maximum height of 3 and 1/2 ft and maximum size structure width of 2 feet. Isn't it funny? It can't be any more than 5T from the door, but it can't be
placed in the public right away. So it's kind of how you going to place the 5 ft of the door and not place it right away. You're not well depending on where your business is, right?
I mean, you got the sidewalk within 5T of the door going in the to your place of business, right? >> Potentially. >> Not necessarily, but >> you're not going to have a sidewalk going into your business. How you going to get in there if you don't have a sidewalk? Well, it's it's not when you're talking
about a sidewalk. Are you talking about a public sidewalk or private walkway? >> That's two different things. >> I mean, I guess I'm envisioning a strip mall with a sidewalk. >> The pizza place up here, Giorgio's used to be lighthouse subs, whatever. That that's that's not a sidewalk in front of
there. That's their that's their >> public rightway, isn't it? >> No, >> it is a public rightway. It is accessibility. It's a public rideway. So now you can't >> It might be on private property, but it's still a public. >> Well, well, right away, a public walkway
and rideway is different things, aren't they? >> I wasn't. >> I mean, people could people can walk up on my porch, but it's not a public, >> right? >> Well, that's different. We're talking your house versus a strip mall. >> Well, well, same thing, right? >> They Yeah. I If you come at a strip mall, a restaurant, somewhere that's by
the public, and there has to be egress and ingress and egress. >> But they can close it and and not allow you to go in there. >> They can close the building. You got you got handicap ramps coming off there and all kinds of stuff. You got to have it open. So now that sign's not legal up there. Based on the first thing I'm going to tell this department
of justice [Music] handicap. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, if you can kind of look at that. >> I was I was thought we'd already done something with this. That's why I was looking at other >> Yeah. >> parts, but I don't see anything else. So
tell me what you want it to say. what what our what our concern is the five foot. >> I'm just concerned that it it it basically eliminates itself by the time you get to the end of the the paragraph there eliminates itself. You eliminate the ability to have an a sign
from >> maybe in a way is not to impede the rightway because if you had a 12t walkway and you took up three feet that's not impeding it. Okay. Okay. So that's I think we should probably put in something that says not to impede the the right of way. >> Well, so
>> not to impede or restrict >> if that's truly public rightway, why would it say the sign shall not be placed in the public rightway and shall not be placed so as to obstruct pedestrian traffic along the sidewalk, >> which is just what Mr. Mayor just said, >> not to impede or restrict.
>> Well, if you can't put it in the rightway, you're obviously not going to obstruct pedestrian traffic because it's not going to be there. >> They're suggesting you change that to not to be placed in the right way to not >> we just shouldn't obstruct pedestrian traffic. >> Excuse me. >> We should It should just not obstruct
pedestrian traffic >> to restrict. >> What is it called? The public right of way. >> Restrict or impede. >> Correct. >> So there's a fire and they need to get out of that restaurant. You can't put a sign in front of the door. >> Right. >> But you can't put it on the side. If they can go by it and they can walk
down, there's still nine ft left to get down there. >> So we want it to say the sign shall not be placed. a way to restrict restrict or impede the public right away and shall not be placed so as to obstruct pedestrian traffic along the sidewalk. You want both or just one?
>> I think just one, right? >> There could be a situation where there's both, right? Someone has a sidewalk plus there's a rideway. >> I think it's be rare. Okay. >> So, we could just do shall not be placed in the to should not be placed in a in a
way to restrict or impede public right away. Yeah. And that's enough. >> I'll be honest with you, this whole thing is confusing to me because this is this section is really just say what you don't need a permit for. It seems like it really gets into depth on these things. >> Say this is another one that's what I when I was looking back your the sandwich sign is
>> prohibited unless it meets these requirements. >> So >> So if you want sandwich signs, you got to give us some requirements. >> If I could so kindly interrupt here and I've got Miss Christine on my mind as I say this. Why wouldn't you take right these notes and collide them together
and put them into AI >> and just say, "Hey, if there's any overriding or duplicate things here, please straighten that out." Why wouldn't we use AI for that? >> Because I don't use AI. I'm a lawyer and I want to use my own mind, do my own investigation. I'm not going to use AI. >> I mean, if it's out there, that's fine.
>> I'm not going to do that. And if you want a lawyer that does that, you can find one. That is inappropriate. That's not what I have my license to do. You don't think using the tool of AI is correct. >> The tool of my mind and reading this and putting it together is what's going to happen. And and I we I'm not going to
and I don't know how to use AI. I've already established that. I don't have the fancy version. I have the the cheap Google version. I am not going to use that at all. It would be a waste of my time and your money because you pay for it. So, I'm going to do it the way. >> While we're getting into that, if we're going to dig deeper, I'll dig a little deeper. Give me a second. It is our time
and our >> and that's why I'm >> So you want So you want me to spend five or 10 hours learning a pro a process? No, you don't. So let me do it my way. This is almost done. This has been hours and hours. >> What am I going to start over >> here? Just when she comes back with Lauren, which will be in our packet. You
take that and you plug it in AI and you can point out things expert, but I've seen it work and I >> and it does work and it also doesn't work. And I'm not I I am not the lawyer that's going to do that for you. This is almost done without AI. So I'm not going to start now. And I'm not trying to offend you. I disagree with that thought
process for this project and any project I'm working on. I'm not going to be using AI. I I know and you can Google it. Lawyers get in trouble for using AI because they don't do their job right. I'm not even going to begin going down that road. I'm going to do it the way I've been trained to do a lot of the time. >> Yeah, it so obviously if you want to
plug something in or whatever and you and if it points something out, bring it to the meeting, say, "Hey, this is this seems to be contradictory, we talk about it and she can fix it." contract. That's how it works. >> Because obviously, you're correct in the point that when you have a very large project like this, it's it's very easy
to have things that aren't consistent or that have conflict and that's why we read through it and try to find them. And this is the I don't know, sixth time we've read through this and you know, hopefully we caught them, but that's going to happen. But it will be found if you want me to do it, it's going to be found the way I am trained to do it and
licensed to do it. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, so that concludes that section. Is there anything else that you guys want to bring up? So the only other thing on the agenda I think we can get is waterfront over edition. So anything else sign code before I close out this
item? Okay. Next up, item number two, amendments to the waterfront overlay district sign code. So in the WOD sign code, there are >> What page are you on, Derek? I'm sorry. Uh this will be >> is this still called WOD site code or has it been changed to Cody River
Landing site code? >> It's still right now it's still water district is 12755 >> the name of it but the code actually refers WOD um and so it's page uh 49. >> Got it. Thank you.
And so if we and this is just from the sign code perspective. If we look down through see if I see signs item page 52H. >> I think it's really just that those five things right >> for signage. Yes. And I I will for a refresher this went to planning and
zoning. They started looking at the signage, made some suggestions, and then it became a bigger conversation for them because they understand that they kind of a new concept for WFOD, and they wanted kind of more direction from you guys about overall if if everything in
here is still the the addition for the WD. Um, which is why they asked for it to come back to you guys. >> So, I guess from my perspective, do we need any special signage code in the WOD or not? And if we do, what is it? Is it this? Is it something else? Um, I don't
I don't know that we need anything specific to the WOD. >> I don't So, >> you Chris, you have any thoughts on it? >> No, sorry, I don't. So, so I would say our recommendation would be to remove any signage differences and just align
with the current code. >> Or we can say um we'll leave age signage and some language that comply with section. >> Yeah, exactly. Put point it back to our sign code. >> Yep. That's easy enough. >> Um staff have any thoughts on that?
Do we have do we have anything in the past where we've had some differences that you guys have because the WOD was more restrictive or >> No, the only thing was the um was the illumination. That was one of the things that was uh
brought up in the past. >> Yeah. Let's across the board anyway, right? Could do it either way. >> Yeah. Okay. So, you're that nothing you think of that we would need to do something special there. Okay. Cool. Extract that. Okay. Well, that will
conclude our workshop and so obviously Nancy have to go back and crunch all that together and >> bring back an order. >> So, my question would be um it definitely could come back as a as an ordinance first read um but it is extensive. So, you may want it to come back as another workshop if you want to talk through it or we could do um bring
it back just as a discussion item. Whatever whichever and nothing it doesn't hurt to have first read and then decide nope, we're not ready for first read and have another first read. Um but however you think you guys would prefer to see it for the next time and discuss it. >> So, the changes that we've made, I guess
when we get if we come back with it, you'll have um another color for our changes. >> That's what I actually was wondering about that. That is my goal is to have either I'll highlight what changes you made or have it a different color so you can easily see >> see what we talked about >> what you know what Rob did, what P&Z
did, what you've done. So that's my that's my goal. Okay. >> All in one document. >> I think probably just bring back for the first reading. >> Okay. >> And hopefully it'll be a lighter agenda when he when he does it. >> We get through it. >> I suggest that W will be easy, but it needs to follow. So it can be
>> Now does this have to go back to planning and zoning first? Okay. Okay, we won't. >> No, it is you have you have uh you've heard their recommendations and you have made your decisions and now it will come back as um a finalized ordinance. >> Okay, with that then I'll move to
comments from mayor city council. I'll start with vice mayor mayor since you've been out of the office for a while. >> Um I've appreciated the back and forth we've had. I appreciate the folks in the building department and their input that has helped us to make the right
decisions on the sign code permit. I think we've done a great job here. So, congratulations to everybody and I'm proud to be a part of it. >> Thank you, Councilwoman Sullivan. >> I agot. >> Motion to adjourn. >> Second. I have >> motion second. All in favor signify by saying I. I
>> and workshop is the next one up.