show. You can't say That's right. >> Yeah. You don't have to Capital workshop Monday August 1825 to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation
indivisible with liberty and justice for all. May clerk have role, please. >> Mayor John Eric Hoover >> here. >> Vice Mayor Chris Mayer >> here. >> Councilman Robert Huard >> here. >> Counciloman Lisa Burke. Let the record
show that Councilwoman Lisa Burke is absent from today's meeting. Councilwoman Christine Sullivan >> here. City attorney Andrew Meer >> here. >> City Manager Andrew Butterfield >> here. >> Okay. Thank you. First up is comments from the general public. I do not see any general public in the audience. Is
there anybody online? >> Okay, nobody online. So, we'll move on to comments from city manager. I pass it to Mr. Butterfield for any comments again. >> Yes, sir. Uh, both of these topics precede my time here, so you may be more familiar to me even, but uh it's uh to
address the amendments to the poor Richie sign code, which hasn't had an update in better part of two decades, and amendments to the waterfront overlay district sign code. >> Okay, perfect. Um, nothing else? Okay. And moving on to council business, item
number one, amendments to the Port Richie sign code. Um, actually Andy just gave a a little bit of introduction there, but um I I'll go ahead and expound upon it. Obviously, our sign code, like I said, hasn't been modified in a long time. Um, I know there's been several uh issues with with signs over
the course of that time. And obviously, we had this on the agenda to discuss. It's been through planning and zoning who had some discussions and have made some recommendations. Nancy as well has uh made some uh adjustments based on
and whatnot and so obviously the sign code is very large. Um I think we have how many pages of whereas clauses before we even get to the >> I'll explain that when you're done. >> Okay. So but I think it it was worth a workshop to go through kind of line by
line to just make sure that uh there's not anything else we need to um change, modify, add, whatever. Uh, and I think it'd be a good exercise to kind of go through that next couple hours and and really get that lined up and then we can um get that back into planning and
zoning. I guess they >> they they they have recommended approval of what's before you. You can re you can approve it >> WD stuff is what we need to go by WD. >> Yeah. So basically we can kind of put this together and give Nancy direction on any changes or whatever. She can
write that final uh ordinance stuff and then we take it to a first reading. Okay. So with that being said, did you have anything? >> So if I may have to start, I'll let you know. You can see there's a lot of different colors also within the the red lines. They're not all just red. The red is my colleague, attorney Echenfelder,
who did the main editing for this. He's kind of the sign code guy among many other titles he has at our at our firm. He does a lot for us. Um but he is kind of the expert in this area. So he did the main revisions to bring um the code up to standards based on this um relatively recent Supreme Court cases.
But he also did some tweaks based on other cities and things that they had asked. So some of this we can definitely modify. Some things you might not be able to, but we'll address those as we go through. The other colors, I think there's both blue and green. Again, I don't know exactly why there are that many different colors, but those are the edits that happened within PNZ and
myself. So the red is what was the ultimate the initial presentation and then the tweaks are um u most likely P&Z. Maybe some typos if I found a couple typos, but that kind of gives you the idea of where all these different colors came from and and why it looks the way it looks right now. Okay, perfect. So, the the red is all work
that your firm did. >> And if it's crossed out, it was taken out. And if it's not crossed out, it was added. >> Added, correct? >> Okay. >> Okay. Let me I'm going to Can you turn on Sharon for me, Ashley? >> So, let's go ahead and pull it up as we
go down and follow along here. And if you all follow along in your packets, I'll give you the page. So obviously we're going to roll down through all the whereas clauses. I don't think we need to really >> No. That's the turn. They're just kind of covering why you're making the changes and explaining that it's
catching up with the Supreme Court. >> Okay. So starting on page 16 where we talk about signs. Um this is pretty much just kind of lying out the uh purpose. Um, this is a green thing in the event of any provisions of chapter of conflict
with up to use a more restrictive. >> Is that something? >> No, I think that's that's something from Rob. I don't know why that's >> okay. >> Maybe I had to restate it or something, but that's a normal provision just to get those in there. >> Okay. And then moving on down to page
17, we have the applicability. uh states it doesn't regulate signs located entire entirely inside the premises of a building enclosed space and that are not visible from the rideway or public parking lot. So I did have a question about that when I went through. So what this is saying is if I got a
very large storefront window and I have a sign within my establishment if it's visible from the road or rightway it would apply. And I I think I have an issue with that right off the bat. Um, we should, you know, and I think maybe
the the premise here is that if it's at the window, you know, meshed up against the window where you see it, but you could technically drive by a large window that's open, you can see desk and stuff in there and you can see an internal sign. All a sudden we're starting to regulate inside the business. So, I have a concern with that.
Any thoughts on that? Is it do you guys agree with that? Um, so obviously that's something that's added by the firm. Is there >> what was the concern? Not the size, but I guess the >> Well, the benefit what this says is that
um if you can see it inside your establishment from the rideway or the public road, then all of a sudden the code can regulate what's inside your business. And so then the sign sizing and all that would it would probably count towards
your signage and all you know it it becomes very uh easily on the visibility within your establishment. Um somebody can start picking on you. >> Okay. So you're talking about 121-2. Yes.
>> Clickability. It says this chapter does not regulate signs entirely. >> Exactly. So basically what it says it does not regulate that are not visible. So all I'm saying is is if they are visible then it is regulated. >> Oh I see what you're saying.
>> Yeah. Well >> not visible. >> Yeah but they're not visible. So if they're not visible we're not >> if they're not visible they're not regulated. But they are visible they are regulated. And so, >> right, >> basically what I'm saying is if you have a sign inside your establishment and it
is visible, it's regulated. And that's the problem I have. >> We don't >> we should be regulating signs. >> It's not on here. You just wanted to say if it's visible. >> Well, I I think we need to remove >> make that doesn't matter if it's visible or not. If it's inside your premises, we don't regulate it would be my thing. >> End it enclosed.
>> The problem you're going to run and I can talk to Rob and see if there's some way to address it. I think the problem you're going to run into is that someone's going to maybe not put it as a window sign, but it's going to be a window sign trying to get around the sign requirements. >> And that's
if that did happen, what's the harm? >> If if we could if the sign was within the building, what is the harm to the public? Depends on what depends on >> depends on what it says. >> Wait, we can't regulate content. >> Control the ad content. >> Contents you can't do anything about.
You can do size, location, number of signs. You can't regulate >> content. >> So, let's just say, let's just say >> worry about that content part right now. >> Let's let's let's just say you drive by an establishment with a very clear window, blinds are open, you can see
inside their their waiting room, whatever, and they have a sign that says anything, right? um that's if it's visible from the road and you can see it and read it then that becomes by this chapter a sign that is regulated by the code
>> and that's not the intent. Um but that's what happens when you write these things. You got to be very careful on how you word that because somebody code enforcement officer could be standing out in front of your establishment looking and say well you've already got a sign there um and it's too big you know it's it feeds the six square foot you know depending on what kind of sign
it is how it would be regulated. But the problem is is we shouldn't be regul regulating anything within somebody's establishment. >> I agree. I'll talk to Rob in a minute and see how we can tweak that language. I I see what he's getting at, but I also see what you're getting at. So, let me Yeah, >> I made a note.
>> Thanks. So, I will let me since I'm on my page here, highlight that. >> I mean, the idea behind signage the business is to bring people to their establishments they can profit from. That's the idea. Now, we don't want to start shutting down those
things. they'll go to some other city where they don't get shut down, >> right? >> And they'll be taking their dollars somewhere else, >> right? >> Well, this statement this statement is anticipating not that kind of sign. This is talking about you have a sign in your business, you know, have a nice day or,
you know, eat more oranges, whatever. It's not about the sign on the street advertising your business. It's kind of like saying if you have something indoors that's that we can't that can't be seen, the sign code itself doesn't regulate it. Something else might regulate it. something else might be relevant. But the the sign like you know
>> we use this for example that back in 1925 if we had a storefront window right there big open window that you could see in they could see us in your council chambers they can see a sign all a sudden because it's can be viewed from public rightway that sign is regulated >> I understand I've just been in
communities >> well that doesn't fit in the not visible though they're saying not visible that would be if it is visible it's regul so it does not regulate if it's not vis if they can't see it then you're They can't regulate. >> So if you think they can see it, it shouldn't still shouldn't be regulated. >> That's exactly right.
>> That's what you're thinking. >> So if you can see it, should we be regulating somebody's internal business signs? The answer is no. >> So you want to take the uh the >> visibility is not a good uh it's not a good differentiator. >> Okay. >> If it ended it enclosed space and
everything else was removed, it would be >> okay. >> How it should be really. >> That's not a big deal. Do you have something yet? >> I did. Give me a minute. >> Okay. >> Um, and I could, you know, I for example um over by the Chamber of Commerce,
there's a uh a church um what's the name of the um excuse me, but anyway, you know, they got some signage right there inside the window. So, if you're staying out of the road, you can actually see in there and see that. And so that also that becomes something that we would have the
potential to regulate which would be a >> bad time. >> Next is are we on the next? >> Did you have something? Good. Good. Okay. Um so obviously here we'll just go through the rest of these not regulate. Obviously we don't have regulate objects
that that are not considered a sign. All right. signs postes no trespassing in the manner provided by Florida statutes and then any government sign placed by or direction of or through the permission of the city in blah blah blah I clean yeah so I think all this is all
good >> what on C signs posted as no trespassing are not regulated but what if those no trespassing signs are attached to a tree in the right way which we get into later in >> so basically this refers to floor statute 810 and what whatever the rules
are there on Right. >> I made some notes about this last night, but I don't recall signs or devices. >> We're going to get to those. Those are down because the next I think next section is this. The ideas 1213 signs specifically prohibited. So, we're going to go through those and talk about each
one of those. See if that's >> signs on trees really shouldn't be a thing either, right? >> Signs on trees. >> Yeah, that's later on. >> And that's that's addressing too. >> Those are prohibited. But with these no with no trespassing not being regulated, if you had a no trespassing sign in the
right of way attached to a tree or something, then you maybe have a conflict or she's got snatched up now. She got And I know of one of those though. That's why. >> Oh, is that >> It's right in front of my house. >> Oh, okay. In
>> plain sight. And it's not mine. >> Of course, I can do that. >> I don't really like that >> sign. Nailed the tree. >> In the right way. >> You want me to pull up here, too? I can probably do that. >> Um, and I'm reading I'm reading quickly,
but it does say so it's um 810.011582. 011582 um posted land upon which the signs can be placed. The conspicuous no trespassing notice is painted on trees or posted on the property provided the notice is um and it gives them some requirements. So that maybe depending if
they've met those requirements, it can be on the tree. It may not meet those requirements that it lists and it may not be appropriate and that would be something for our code enforcement to look at. Okay. >> Okay. So we don't we don't need to revise. >> We can't >> for this particular
>> um sign we can't do anything different than what the statute calls. >> We can't make it more restrictive. >> We should be able to >> we so you can make usually make it more not less depending on what the language is. Sometimes they change it completely. I'm just reading one section. So I'd have to verify. Um you definitely can't
do less. So that that particular one we might want to look at and see if it meets the requirements for that sign. Sure. Pat would be happy. >> Are you talking about it? Um whether it be on private property or in the rightway because if it's in the right way, it's it's
>> can't be in the right way. >> Yeah, it is in the right way. >> Um and but again, I don't know if if uh they allow it to be in the rightway in 810. >> Let me look at it. Let me look at 810. You'll talk about that and we'll get I didn't mean to get this about me. It was just a for example of something I thought of
>> when I read that. >> You're good. >> Okay. Anything else on the other one? Uh, >> 1213 1212. We're getting ready to go three minutes. The last one was D. Any government sign placed by or at the direction of or through the permission
of the city in or on or over any city, county owned or controlled property of the rightway, including signs approved by the city and authority of development or possession agreement or an event co-sponsorship agreement of the city. This basically says, you know, basically the city's doing it or they got some kind of agreement we're allowing it, uh,
it's not regulated. So, I'll go with that. So, moving on to section 1213. These are signs are specifically prohibited or not allowed. Um, and any sign not specifically permitted, exempted or
authorized by the chapter is prohibited. Provide, however, that an authorized or permitted sign under this chapter is allowed to contain non-commercial speech in lie of any other speech. Um, the following types signs are private except as otherwise the chapter. So Nancy on what it says, however, that any authorized or
permitted sign under this chapter is allowed to contain non-commercial speech. So what it's saying is is these are only prohibited if they're containing commercial speech. So these signs are still not currently this list of signs is not allowed. is talking about other signs that which are
not included in this list but are are permitted. They're allowed as long as that contains non-commercial speech and limiting other speech. >> So why is that? >> That's that's the that's the Supreme Court cases that change that it's it's relevant for commercial and non-commercial speech. They treat it differently. >> Can we define a poll sign?
>> Yes, it is something it's already defined in your a different part of your code. Yeah, there's so poll signs have been kind of a a thing and
uh communities whatever are trying to move away from those and do more monument signs or whatever that I also have a problem with with that cuz really you're going to have some pole structure holding these up um and they're going to
be for a long time and I you know so got to be careful about outlawing pole signs at the same concern. Well, in they should be attached to someone's property. It's certain size when you're out by the road. Those
are going with marquees, not anything on a pole, >> right? >> Um, so I mean, we can >> think about McDonald's for instance. They put the big M on the on the pole. >> Yeah, they do mares now. They don't put them on poles anymore. So >> marquee mean what? >> Marquee like just a a nice box on on the
ground. It's decorated. It's not on >> like all the business culvers is now. Yeah, that's it's eliminating it. It It looks nicer. It's neater. It's landscaped usually, but >> I didn't realize that they that I
thought we might be limiting um signage for businesses that have had bull signs forever. And >> I mean, that's what I'm thinking about. We have to have had sign. >> We have to bring in businesses to fill these vacant storefronts and such. And if we limit too much, then I'm afraid
they might go. >> And I give you a great example. The catch is sign on a pole, right? Two poles, whatever it is. Um, there's really not the ability to say they built that new. There's really not ability to really get a monument sign
there because it's kind of down off of the 19. Um it'd be great if people actually drove down in there to buy it, but um you know, obviously they have the ability to put their name on the building and stuff that you can see, but as far as their actual sign that they have, that really wouldn't lend itself
to a monument type sign because they have to they have to elevate it. So I think there's there's there's definitely application for pole signs. Um >> they have it on, >> right? There's options, but and the current the current way they've done it,
they got that that pole sign. So if we eliminate those, you take take that you think it catches something being built new. Let's say somebody comes in and bulldozes that and build something, they'd have to incorporate their sign something other than a monument sign because they don't have that ability to
to show that to the the 19 travelers unless it was they were elevated and it was kind of part of their building. Well, they >> got that actually they got that sign that says Santa Cruz Casinos on their property.
That's the big sign on the pole says Sun Cruz Casino. >> Yes, I think. Yeah, >> that's on their It's on Catch's property, ironically. So, but that could be taken down and you could put a marquee sign out there because they own that property or even closer to their building on the other side of >> Look at that. See, I know catch is right
there on the corner and it's as you're coming down off 19. I don't know if they I mean they do they do own that land as you pass them right there. They use for overflow parking or whatever. So I I mean I think I guess my opinion is the most effective sign for that property is what
they have now is right there. >> Is this is this eliminating current signs >> or is this talking about future signs? >> Well, so first of all first first question pull sign is defined in section 101-11. That's where all your definitions are for anything you need a
definition for. >> He would read that. >> Yeah. But pole sign is a sign independent of support from any building that is mounted or freestanding mounted on freestanding poles or other supports so that the bottom edge of the sign face is 8 ft or more above grade. So that's the definition. Second question you
asked this the sign pole signs is currently not allowed in the city. Hasn't been. We're not changing that. It's one of the things that's not allowed now. Obviously they exist all over the city. So that means they're without the right to be there.
>> Existing non-conforming, >> right? >> It's never right. >> Existing non-conforming can still be used, but existing non-conforming. >> But once it's damaged or needs, you know, that whole thing if it's damaged or needs fixing was it 50% of >> once it's damaged, then it's gone. It
can't come back. So, right existing nonform, right? I got I got >> we don't do away with what's there now. >> But yes, existing >> if a hurricane came through and wiped them all to the ground.
Now, if you take pole signs out of this list, then of course they can rebuild with them if you want to let them. Um and I will say for those that weren't um able to be at the PNZ meetings, this was a topic that was discussed a lot. People signs don't have pull signs back and forth because they recognize like you do, a lot of people have them, a lot of
people are using them. Um but they were their conversation just so for you for you to know I you know I don't have a preference either way is that many cities are getting away from them because the marquee sign has just a better appeal a better look to some people and that was the >> state has signs on the poll that they'd
be better off with a marquee I believe >> mares don't fit in every application >> some of these applications if you throw a marquee in there you're going to block traffic view and it's going to cause problems people see you don't want to do that >> yeah that's what I'm saying yeah >> um think about hooters for example, from
19 I don't with Hooters um signage coming down eventually on those billboards. Billboards are not going to be allowable. How will people know Hooters is back there without them being allowed to have some kind of sign pole if they just have a marquee cut back
there on the waterfront district like that? >> Well, there's there isn't that >> a lot of places have this a thought. you going down, travel down the interstate a lot, you see a lot of marquees and you can see actually big interstate signs on poles, too. But they'll have, say, if we
come just south of Ridge Road a couple blocks, we could have a good spot for a large marquee, Fort Richie waterfront, whatever we call it, next three rights. And you can have Hooters, Whiskey Joe's, catches, and you can have all that on
that marquee. Next three rights. And as you go down and you know well those businesses they turn and then they can have a sign in front of their business on tre. >> So here's an example digital sign also if they want. >> See this sign here that's a pole sign.
>> What >> this here's a pole sign. >> So that's what I'm saying at least 8 feet. Eric is it is it the legs that are 8 ft? >> Is that >> first sign that's 8 ft? >> This is this is a big marquee to me. >> A marquee. Yeah. >> Well no it's it's a pole sign. Well, you
can you can >> now this here, the Burger King one, obviously is pole sign. No question about that. But and here's the problem you have in a definition of pole sign is that encompasses a whole lot of things that you that you aren't interested in getting rid of. >> This would be a perfect example of that.
>> I think it's on a nice sign right there. >> I mean, they're nice concrete or whatever, but they're really pulled. >> The big signs. Well, it's on twofold. It's a marquee. You can you can consider it a marquee. the big signs. >> If you Google though what a pole sign is, it will show that image and others
like that. I was looking them up last night to see what was what. >> Um you guys define that is a pull. >> I looked up marquees for a sign and they came up like those too. >> Yeah, actually I think we I think we actually outlaw marquee signs if I remember right. Do we? We don't allow marquee signs, do we? Marquee signs.
>> I think you do. >> Those are the modern new stuff. Marquee signs. The new ones been talking about >> I saw something about mares. If you're here's your definition of marquee sign. It's a sign which is attached to >> the building >> or hung from a permanent rooflike structure which is supported by a
building wall and which projects out from the building line usually but not necessarily over a public rideway such as this. >> So that's like what catches has on their building. >> Yes. So all these that you see up there is they're attached to building and they project out. >> I thought a marquee sign is a sign that started on the ground.
>> It does. Yeah. That's well you can use that. Yeah. a monument. >> It's not a monument. >> Yeah, monument sign. That's why big coals and all that. That's not a marquee sign. It's a pole sign because the marquee would be attached to the building which that's obviously
freestanding. So, >> okay. >> See, even that's why I thought important to go through these also because >> yeah, we understand >> we don't want to outlaw things that we don't intend to outlaw. >> How do you get yours to show up on the screen? >> You want me to share? You share your screen. Uh you got to be in a zoom though.
>> Okay. I'm not >> um >> because here's another night. Well, that might >> that's a nice sign. That's that's >> that's a that's a monument or marking that comes from the building. >> If you go back to yours >> in your city, you if you call a monument
sign a ground a sign. >> So, if you look up there, so you see how it's kind of built up a little bit? That's that's a monument sign, >> right? And that >> um and I have an example of a monument sign, but I don't I can't share my screen. >> Well, here sign and it's not >> here. Christine, if you if you go to the
the city calendar, go to the the calendar event of the meeting, click on the Zoom, log into the Zoom session, then I you can share and we can >> that's what I said. >> Well, while he's doing that, I'll tell you that your city code defines again
monument sign you call a ground sign. It's any sign other than a pole sign which is placed upon or supported by structures or supports in or upon the ground and independent of support from any building. The base shall touch the ground and continue to the top of the sign without any openings and the finish
shall be consistent with materials used on the building that the sign serves. The term ground sign includes a monument sign. That's currently how you define. >> That's where she's in. Yes. >> Okay. So, what you're gonna do
>> share screen. >> Okay. >> You're live. >> Okay. So, let's see. >> Where was that? >> We're seeing your screen now. So, if you just pull up whatever you want to show us. But it is blocked by this tab.
>> Click down here. That should go away. >> This thing >> just click this back to Google. Oh, okay. >> Here. There you go. >> So, this this would be Oh, no. Where did that go?
>> Go back here. >> Take me to it. >> Okay. How could I share this? So, this one up there in the the large one in the far right corner. >> Yeah. >> Um, that would be considered a monument
sign, but it has a certain height. So, if we could look at restrictions on height, that's nice. That looks nice. So, as long as we don't limit things like that, and also if our if that double pole sign that you show was it lows.
>> Yeah. Um, could that become a conforming sign if it had a base like this which would restrict vision? >> If you built a base around the bottom of it kind of fill it in >> around those poles, could it become a monument sign and then we have to
discuss height limitations and whether again if you >> but variances are only under one circle. >> Why do we want to limit the height of a >> of a monument sign at this point here? Well, I don't think that's a conversation. I think how to make a a
pole sign, a monument sign to the client. But I mean, I I would argue that um what is it about pole signs we want to get rid of? And maybe we maybe further define what a pole sign is we don't want. >> That way you don't exclude all pole
signs. That's >> right. So if you don't want a single pole going up into and have a sign sitting on top of it, you could further define it as that as opposed just saying supported by poles because at the end of the day
really anything underneath all those structures or whatever are poles. You can hide them, >> right? Require a uh >> um myself uh
uh you're still going to have them anyway. Changes like this to where we say no pole signs maybe the next centennial we have as things have been torn down or redone or
whatever you might get those changes. So, you know, what's really the point other than 100 years from now maybe you finally eradicate all the poll signs and again you're going to drive around places in the country. Are they really are they really that obnoxious? I don't know.
That's the question. >> Well, they can be. That's why >> they can be. So, I would I would say what is obnoxious and that's what we want to not have. Well, if you're coming down, say to to the city and we have multiple businesses in waterfront or
down grand, you have you have your business has a sign there pointing this way or we got another sign here for this business, for this little business. You have a bunch of signs when you can have one large pole sign or monument or whatever and you can have all the
businesses located on it turn here. Then you can find businesses on those roads, not just on 19 back on those roads. And because you have a variance for how much big the signs can be and how high on those days. >> Exactly. That's what you see as you see these big developments where there's they encompass multiple stores within a
a property >> almost like a shop that you know independent businesses >> independent businesses would be a part of that. That's part of the you know that's a that's a lease type arrangement that those stores have. Um and so they provide the signage for the the uh the
uh what's the word I'm going for for the for the for the whole center. Right. Right. Um, so yes, obviously that would I mean not every one of those stores in there are going to have their own sign because they don't have that kind of property. But in in in our case and other cases, um, you have individually
owned lots, individually owned stores, not part of a conglomerate. And so they need to be able to advertise their business. You can't force somebody, you can't force five businesses to all get together and put a sign together and then put it on there. I mean, that's and
that's what you have as things get redeveloped or whatever, you see more of that and that that happens uh organically. But uh again, you got to keep in mind that if if you buy a business Bob's Widgets and you aren't part of that area, you want and and
you're in a place where you actually need to get your sign up in the air so you can show people that, hey, I have widgets here. Bob Bob sells widgets here. Um you want to be able to bring them in. It's going to be business friendly. I was leasing a spot from from a business and uh I could not put a sign
up because their variances they had too much on their property and they would not allow any more signs. >> Period. >> You were leasing a business inside of a where the business? I was leasing the dock space behind the the Ramada end down in Newport Richie >> and they had that big interstate sign
out there if you guys know it was useless but that made up a lot of their variance and then has another monument building on the corner and then had a sign on their building that was is almost it was over the variance of what they were allowed to have. So I want to
put a sign up or or the other businesses there at the marina want to put a sign up. out by 24 temporary sign if you moved it around but that's all you can put up there >> right and so and that's in effect obviously what this sign code does >> reason for it
>> right so if you know do we want to hinder a business that maybe is kind of obscured the ability to put up on a poll a sign obviously it still has to meet all the other things and and and and be nice looking or whatever it can't be but is is it so bad that to have that if
That's something that they need. >> Look at the bank sign that Christine's got up there right now. See that? require that then a full sign is allowable but it has a facade at the bottom that covers up the pole and it still looks nice >> if for those instances and you might
have to break the code down to instances where they aren't part of a complex or a center or >> you could say I mean you could say the pole must be enclosed in a >> right >> some kind of facade I guess >> I mean that's no more than a little steel frame with some
>> right >> block screwed to it you Yeah. >> Um >> I mean it does improve the >> but does the poll really take away from the >> Yeah. Is it >> is is the poll really that offensive versus >> apparently it is to a lot of people maybe not us in particular but
apparently the poll is offensive because this is happening all over the United States where signs are um being eliminated. So >> there's an eliminating sign. >> Yeah. >> Because it's too people is too informative. You can't when you're driving down the road, it's just like
you don't even pay attention to them. There's so many of them. >> We agree with that. I'm I'm constantly wanting to know in our city what people do what so I can start spending money in my city, you know, whether it's a car wash or a cleaners. I mean, I don't know
of any dry cleaners in our city right now. I'd like to have a sign to say, "Hey, where's the dry clean? It's right there." You know, >> there's a lot of shorts and tank tops here, so it might not be so successful. You know, I like this is a this is a overexaggeration of something, but uh
obviously we've all been to Las Vegas, right? >> Right. And and and that when you when you go down, you say, "Wow, it's really cool." Now, do would you want to live on the strip in Las Vegas? Obviously not. Right. So, but you know, the the point I'm making is is that
you don't want to you don't want to be so limited businesses can't thrive in your area. Um, but you don't want to be so obnoxious that people can't stand to drive through your town. And so, back to your >> That's why we're here, >> right? Exactly.
>> I would like planning and zoning to reach out to all the businesses in the city. They were having they're having ideas and some people showed >> this what they want to do and then we need to put in this is what we allow to
have. >> For the most part, all that came up was digital signs. >> Yeah. my >> but we had a good group >> and that's important but I think like I said we if we had what we want to do is get a sign to promote it's not a big area it's the waterfront area is like a
shopping center main or or grand boulevard will probably be like another shopping center that way and you know and I've been to different towns where they'll have a whole sign of monument sign whatever with all the businesses turned at this exit
>> idea to get them to turn on oh look at all this stuff here. Turn off and you may see your your you can see the business >> you want to go to. Yeah. >> And then when you turn off then they have a digital sign where they're promoting that wing with that activity they have going on. They may have another sign a monument sign a limited
monument. >> Who's going to own and and provide that space >> but that is for another discussion pro or we can discuss it now. I would think the city could do it or the businesses may want to invest in sign together and
that you can charge for inserts on that sign. >> Do we really have that much runway here that we're having to deal with because right now >> the city of Port Rich is just a little teeny place and I'm wondering how much we want to overregulate the signs right here. >> Right. Right.
>> Well, and we're lacking businesses as it is. So, we want >> That's what I'm saying. We're lacking businesses. We want to make it harder. >> Well, you you mentioned businesses being invited and all that. So, I want you to think like a business and obviously you do that because you've had a business, right? >> Signs up with city and county.
>> So, so think about you as an individual business owner. Um, obviously they're going to comply with whatever the code is. If they have to, you know, if they have to jump through hoops and build a large monument in order to comply, they will. If they are able to put it on a pole and do that, maybe they'll do that.
Um, so whatever you do here, they're going to they're going to they're going to comply with that. Now, if it becomes so difficult to comply, maybe they decide, well, I'm going to go here instead of here. >> I'm going to go south. >> And if I this is not a great location
because it's going to be difficult for me advertise because I can't put a pole sign. I have to invest all these different things. I'm going to try to get my neighbors together to to put together some other property here to turn down here. I mean, think from the individual business owner because at the end of the day, it's individual residents coming to buy property here,
individual um businesses investing and really they're investing in in a in a conglomerate or you know, there's several stores and all that, but they may be just buying a single property like the Thai restaurant or or other properties on 19 and they want to be able to advertise that and they've got
all these cars going by there and if they don't have a sign that can alert somebody that, hey, I'm, you know, I can get my donuts here, I can get my coffee here uh or I can get Bob's widgets here, then they're not going to do well and they're not going to want to one,
they'll fail and we want them to thrive. And so we really, you know, it's always my uh uh goal is to be as business friendly as I want I want business to choose Port Richie because it's they're easier for them to thrive
here. They advertise businessfriendly. >> Yeah. in focus forms. >> That's what that's what they do. >> Regulate the aesthetics more so than the >> exact aesthetics, >> you know, so that they >> So, I pulled a sign if the paint >> the difference between Texas Roadhouse and Sunny's Barbecue. Sunny's Barbecue
sign, I can see how that pull sign is ugly. The Texas Roadhouse sign with that nice bottom. >> I don't mind Sunny's though. The Sun is nothing. That's mighty. >> Those are inter. So, we're not on an interstate, okay? >> So, we don't need anything high,
>> right? Well, yeah, I'm not I'm not necessarily saying high like this. I'm just saying one's a pole and one has a nice facade on it. >> Um, so if we focus more on >> facads, >> so if I could say something here, >> Bob, I'll I'll heed you. Go ahead. So
when I was looking to put a to advertise my visit to get a sign on the road, I went to Newport Ridge to find out what where we could put a sign to put on that property and uh what kind of sign we can put on the property. What I came up with
was a was like had like the big sign you had there two poles and it had a big sign. It was not real tall but it was really pretty. It was blue back lit in blue with palm trees on each side and it had uh Bill
Farber's um uh resort and marina. So what they had you had the restaurant, you had went on charter, you had fishing charter signs on there and island paradise charter on there. $35,000 it cost. I was going to pay for it. I was
going to put it on on the property. I went to get a permit and I talked to the owners of the hotel. They didn't want me to do it, which I'm glad they didn't because I sold the property. It would have got to my money out the name, but I wanted signage on the road and that
would have been very enticing for people coming down the road. They see Port Richie Waterfront District, next three rides, big pretty blue where palm trees are lit up on each side of it. It looks handsome. This is nice. This nice clean
place here. next three exits. See what this is all about. And you can have businesses located in large scooters, catches, run river, whiskey joe's all on these signs and even little businesses back in there. The developers
want to build. You can put those on there. Same size as Hooters. So they get the same recognition as Hooters does or catches does. Catches have their sign on the building. you'll see after that sign. You'll see Whiskey Joe's from the road and their digital sign and their
sign. But the little business you don't see, but they'll get recognition on that sign instead of putting individual signs all over the place. Well, they'll they won't even get recognized. They'll go right there. That's what I don't know what the hell that is, but you know, I'll go buy that. So, you have a big
sign. It looks really enticing. And I see them in the Keys. I see them in different areas where Oh, this pull over here and see what these are. It's got a restaurant. It's got dry cleaning. It's got uh steer plates. Whatever. Let's check it out. >> Can you leave that up for a minute,
please? I want to make use that. >> So, that is that's an option I'm just throwing out there that I think is good and fair for all the businesses in that area. And like I said, some some business are going to have an advantage because they got bigger buildings they
put signs on. uh we need to have a variance for that on how big how much sign they can put on their property but they can put a building on a property. Others have only assign whatever the lease operator of that building allows them to put on the sign. So at least they're getting
assigned where they're located and assign what district they're instead of nothing. They have no idea that their business is even that district. So one marquee will be able to see it. Oh, this is cool. They have that kind of business in here too. Let's go check it out. They
don't have those restaurants and bars. >> Let me ask you a question, Bob. >> Yeah, >> this sign on the bottom right here, >> right? >> What businesses are on that sign? >> No, don't look at her screen. Look. Look at there. Look here. Right here. >> I can't see. >> I know you can't see it. That's my point. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That's why I'm driving down the road and
get closer to it. I'll see it. >> Yeah. But but my point is when you get a little thing like this here on the side of the road, you can't see it. Businesses want to say, "Hey, I am Texas Roadhouse Barbecue or whatever it may be." They want to have a sign that people can see. They recognize that they pull in there. >> Yeah. Like Whiskey Joe. >> Whiskey Joe. Exactly.
>> They got a sign on their building. >> Yeah. I The only thing I stop the name of the business. >> I'm gonna >> I'll make four if I can. >> Yeah, you have four. >> Oh, okay. I was just helping her. Cool. So, I've been in communities before
where they've overburdened the business people so much that, you know, they're so worried about somebody not seeing Bambi or a little deer or something running around. You they're worried about a sign being out there to help some of the business. They literally run the businesses out of town. And we're not in a place right now
where we're over in inundated with businesses. We're trying to open up and get businesses here. So, we want to be more friendly, not more restrictive. I completely agree. that there's businesses out there right now dilapidated, run down,
signs falling apart. Literally, they're currently running their business and the signs falling apart and they're not doing anything about it. That's something we should correct and fix. >> Yeah. >> You know, but as far as overregulating the business right now to in in a community where we don't have
nearly the business we should have or want to have, there's a lot of empty spaces out there. I don't I don't know that we want to do that. the uh and I and I and I agree if you guys look at my screen. Let's take a drive down 19 through Port Richie. Okay. And so I
think it I think it helps to to to to view things how it's actually applied. So as we come into Port Richie here, you got the old motel which is gone, right? But you can see they had a little monument sign here which really probably didn't help much at all for that. But you can see they
they had this other one kind of up in air here and this one here. They'll start to attract people say, "Hey, there's a hotel there." Right? As I come across the bridge, you see catches over there. You know there's something going on over there at
a hotel. Who knows? Right? Obviously from there, you know, and then know you get here and you see now this is something that's on their roof. Rum River, we still don't know what this orange roof thing is here until they've got this pole sign right here.
Right. And there it is. As we keep driving, obviously there's not a whole lot going on down here. There's a Sun Coast sign Bob mentioned and it's, you know, it's encased. >> Can you back up just a >> Sure. Where you want to go? >> Catches.
>> Um on the other side there was auto sign >> across the >> east side. >> Okay. One second. right here. >> So, this is this is east over here. >> The auto sales as soon as you come across the bridge.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a little place right here. >> Right here. >> See that sign right there? >> I mean, it's not overbearing. >> That or something. >> Did you get any action over there? Yeah,
>> it's um aesthetic could be it too. >> Yeah. And actually if that was a little bigger, a little taller, they would have seen it a lot cuz right here they're right up on it and they can see it. Right. >> So back up a little bit. Go on the right here. So that's Kate's poor man's marina.
>> Say poor man's marina. What' you say? >> Yeah. Right there. That jump right there. All that jump. Now you got you got crab check on the other side. >> Yeah. Crab check. Great example. They don't have a sign. >> Where are they going to put a sign? Well, they could erect if we allowed it, they
could erect a pole sign over that. You could probably because as you're crossing this, you're probably going to glance to the left or right, right? And so if they can have a pole sign, I can get their crab shack up there people because you unless you're local, you probably don't know that's back. >> You don't even know the crab shack. I
was here for years. Didn't even know it's back there. >> And to get to it, >> it would be cheaper for them to put a big crab shack sign right on their roof and you see the same thing, right? No. Where's Here's your roof right here. Can you I mean >> I know your roof. >> I'm zooming in, which cars don't have the ability to do that, but you can
barely make out the the uh shark there. Um >> so they and they really need a pole sign up here. It says crab shack. >> So go down go down go down the bridge. Yeah, that'd be fine. It's not on 19. >> Well, it isn't fine now because we don't
allow them. So >> Well, okay. This was the whole point of this good exercise. So go down here. So they're going to put if they buy a resort put there where it put >> Oh, right. Then then it becomes like the
bubba gump down in um you know the shrimp. I mean you got all the restaurants. >> It could be like a it could be a marina like on causeway. It could be resort name on the building. >> But should this should that should that business continue to to not be able to advertise until this infrastructure is in place?
>> No. Well, I'm saying that could block out crab jack if they put a bigger resort there. If you go over a bridge, you can see a crab jack and then at a certain point then you don't see it anymore. But big building there might even more. So
wouldn't it be nice to have a sign on the bridge or a marquee right on the bridge? >> Plus you got dot easements and stuff on side of that. Boulevard, could you have a combined sign like like a shopping center where you've got eight different businesses?
>> Oh, absolutely. >> I I'm I'm not I'm not saying that a a development put a bunch of shops in that they would put individual signs up. That would never happen. You would have one big one. They have all have their own space on it depend on their size or whatever just like you see all over the
place. But that's not a that's not a current reality and it may not be a future reality. I mean, unless somebody comes up and buys, let's just say somebody comes up and buys all of Tate's property over there. They might put in individual shops, and they would probably have something right there by the road that shows all of them, like
Kohl's, Lowe's, and all that. Of course, they would do that. But if somebody comes in here, buys this little partial, this little partial, this little parcel, they need to be able to independently advertise um because they don't have the infrastructure there to put them on a uh
shared sign. And you you can't you can't force individual businesses to get together and build a sign together. Of course, I guess if they're doing the options, they would have to probably figure that out on their own, I guess. But
as as we continue driving down, you know that there's a poll sign, Big John's tires. >> There sign also at River Gulf Road that could advertise the Crab Check and other businesses down there. I'm I'm saying the sign on the roof for a big pole sign up by Crab Check over by their business. Yeah, that should be allowed
to do that. >> Eric, they just reungled. Turn right in there. Keep going right. >> Keep going right. Keep going. You're going. You're the one. Keep going. I want to see it backwards. Those buildings there just got all >> Yeah, those are all white. >> That'd be a great opportunity to put in a monument sign with like four different
things, the nail people, the hand, whatever. That's a great opportunity for that. >> Bob's widgets would work perfect right there. But you could also put I mean crab check you could have whatever business also didn't you and >> yeah this is this is I think this is all owned by the same person and so that
would make some sense that um you know this one wouldn't have a pole sign this pole sign it there would be a monument sign >> there'd be a big sign out there that would have all these slots in it didn't want to put a sign up there if you want to they could charge you for it >> I I don't know that you can put a sign on somebody else's property Bob
>> that's their property if they put a marquee up What I'm saying? A monument sign. >> Yes. >> Private property. >> And you have private property. So where's the property for the people behind them to come out there and put their sign on the street? >> Are you saying for businesses >> down this road? They have a marquee in here somewhere.
>> They could put a marquee for all these businesses here. >> Oh, right. >> We keep going back to marquee. Marquee is attached to a building. Okay. Mark >> Boulevard this way. They could put Crab Shack that way. whatever business they could put if they want to. They don't
have to. They could charge Crab Shack >> to put their business listing on there to turn here. >> If if we can if we can use the correct terminology just so we a marquee sign is attached to the building. It protrudes from the building. >> You mean monument sign? >> Monument sign. Okay.
>> Mark keeping up. Let's make sure I'd like to try but keep us focused that we're not here to solve the sign problems that people haven't put up signs and you have good spots to help them. That's nice of us. But we need to focus on the code, >> right? >> We're already an hour in and I think we've done one thing. So, we need to we
got a long way to go. Um, so I would I would try to get back to focus. You're you're discussing whether you want to keep or not. And then let's I I recommend we move on >> or require a facade on the pole sign if we want to make it look better.
>> I think that would convert it to a ground sign which you already have. >> Excuse me. >> That would convert it to what we'd call a ground sign, a monument sign. Well, you're saying the poles themselves, like if it was a single pole, right, that would be a if the pole suggesting, so the ground sign, which is
the monument sign, um it's anything other than a pole sign, which is not important, but it's supported by structures or supports enter upon the ground and independent of the building. So, it's not a marquee sign. The base shall touch the ground and continue to the top of the sign without any openings, and the finish shall be consistent with the materials used on
the building that the sign serves. So I think that's like the not the sunny the other one you showed that had like the >> the facade on it. I think that would qualify as a ground sign. So you have that you allow that. Okay. But like say that automobile place that I had to go back to. If we were to require that his
facade match or that the the base of it match his building, what are we really getting? >> You're not color. >> So if I Sorry. Well, I'm saying if you're going to say you can have a pole sign, but it has to be enclosed, that means you can't have pull signs because that's a ground
sign. That's two different things by definition. >> So, I'm I'm going to make sure that because I don't know that that's So, I'm going to look at this big John sign right here on my screen. You're saying that's a ground sign. >> That's a pole sign. >> That's a pull sign. >> It's enclosed piece of steel.
>> It's it's a side number that needs to be finished shall be consistent with an affinity. I guess the building might be the same as that on that. I think the idea is what you showed us. I can't remember what the >> This is a poll. >> That yellow sign right there where they're doing a pole has really cleaned that place up and doing a great job. But
that's a pole sign. The one on the right there. >> Yellow. Come back. One back here. Right there. Right there. Yep. That is Well, this is too actually. >> So, it's a billboard. So, >> we required that it be the same material. That appears to be a concrete building. It looks like he has a
concrete base. What does he have to do? Just paint it yellow. You know, I mean, because what are we really getting if we require it to match the building? Some of these buildings are so old that it's not really going >> nice anyway. Say we want the building
the same signs like saying we want a boat, but ugly. >> Yeah, >> it might be a little overly burdensome for something that's value. >> That's Look at Look at that's a busy pull sign there. >> That's That's a good one. >> That's a pull sign. >> That's a good one. >> Who's on that one? Eric, we see that's
the battery place. golf carts and actually they >> they have about four businesses in there. >> They do a lot of stuff in there. >> They got transmission shop in there. They got the batteries, the golf carts. So, they're using that's a thriving business in our city. >> A lot of pole signs.
>> Affect a lot of people. >> Well, that's what they as as we grow, you want to continue to put those up. >> Poll sign right there for the gas station. >> It is. >> So, this is the problem that I have. I mean, you you know, it's all well and good say, "Let's take out pole signs. We
don't like them." But the reality is is that's like saying, "Let's take people out of the city because we don't like people, >> right? They're there. We're going to worry about clean up the the bad looking." How about Yeah, exactly. Let's get rid of all the falling down, broken down signs.
>> The onelegged people, not the two people. That's right. >> Okay. >> How many we pull poll signs out of this thing? Can we do that? Well, >> I would I I agree with you guys, but I think we could allow poll signs as long
as they're not on the 19 corridor. I mean, their grand some grandparent unless approved where you want it. >> Well, unless they're approved by council, so they can come and I mean, we can if we approve it. >> Well, so all signs, just so you know, these these are if we allow pole signs, those are permitted signs. If they're
permanent structures, they're permitted. So, the city's going to basically give a permit to that. So, um, if you want to if you want to allow pole signs, um, and you want to put some some things behind there of, you know, it must
say it has to be painted. It can't be just raw pole. It has to be painted. And you could even say it has to be your building. >> Has to be gray, black or or green. You know, you put that kind of stuff and so then it gets permitted and they have to file those things. But again, it's right
now there's no pole signs. >> Okay. How about this? >> Yeah, we should allow poll signs. But >> how about new? Where are you going to put them? You can put them on the back road. I mean, >> like the crab shack put on his property. The crab shack can't put a pole sign on on uh Robert's property.
>> There's lots of people on 19 that commercial properties that want to have pole sign out there that don't want to put them on the backside 40. They want to use their pole sign. How about this? >> And they chose the city to be here in business, you know. So, >> you're going to put a whole bunch of a
whole bunch of poll signs out on 19. For every little business you're going to you're going to put out on the waterfront district, you're going to have 20 little signs out there for all 20 businesses. >> We don't have 20 little businesses out on 19, Bob. They have to put on their own property.
>> So, so you won't see it on 19. That's what I'm saying. It's not fair for those businesses not >> and they don't have people sign. That's just one. If you remove this from this list, that's one option they would have. Right now, they if they're following the rules right now, they cannot have a >> go Christine.
>> Okay. My thoughts are is it's premature to do something like this because the city isn't hasn't changed enough to be so concerned about the um change in in the signs. If the city were to change its aesthetics a whole lot over the
course of years, then we could look into this again and get our polls our signs up. >> Well, >> but for Hold on just a second. Go ahead. >> For new pole signs, how about this? For any newly constructed pole signs, they have to meet an aesthetic protocol like
a facade of stone or whatever we agree upon. And then for older grand, allow them to be grandfathered. Don't take them down if they become substantially damaged or you know make them tear them down. Make them rebuild them, fix them or whatever with a facade that we
approve in this code. So that over time as things get better you start looking better over time our facade the the signage starts to look better as the city starts to look better than it's not you know pull the rug out from
everybody right now. It could adjust over time. Well, I suppose based on what you're saying, if they put the side on, it's not a false sign anymore. But I >> again, you don't have to agree with me. By the way, I be your definition of yours, but the city's definition of ground sign if you have
it's not connected to a building. The base shall touch the ground and continue to the top of the sign without any openings. And the finish shall be consistent with the material is used on the building that serves the sign. So that may make the difference if you just wanted to say it can't be a metal pole or whatever other kind of maybe a wood
pole. I don't know people use wood. If you want to say it has to be covered somehow, you're very you're very close to saying that's the same definition. >> Go back and read the pole sign definition again. >> Poll sign and just so you know I think once we get past this they go a lot quicker.
I feel like >> this is a big this is a big >> sign to be helpful but not >> during this conversation sign is a sign independent of support from any building >> that is mounted on freestanding poles or
other supports to the bottom edge of the sign face at 8 ft or more above grade. >> Okay. So based on that whether you enclose it or not I think is irrelevant. It's still on a pole, >> right? But I mean, some of the some of the other signs are just covered up. >> So, you don't think that the that the
monument signs really two poles that you just can't see? >> Exactly what it is. >> There's some kind of structure holding it up, but it's, you know, has if if you cover a pole sign so you can't see the pole, >> even if you cover it ever so slightly, a
square box, >> if that if that removes it to be a pole sign, I don't think we have a problem. I don't >> monument but I would vent to say that we've probably not allowed those in the past. >> Here's another definition. Pole signs and monument signs are both freestanding signs used to identify businesses but they differ significantly in height
design and purpose. Pole signs are tall and prominent designed for maximum visibility from a distance often along highways or in large commercial areas. Monument signs are shorter ground level signs placed near entrances and are often chosen for their aesthetic appeal
and ability to convey a sense of permanence and prestige. >> What they say about ground like this is closer to the ground and that's why it's called the ground. You guys just call it ground. I've never seen anyone call it ground. >> Oh, we don't have monument signs. >> You have your ground sign is a monument.
Um I said the difference is with the ground sign it's not just that the poles covered. you have these the the extra part of it has to be consistent with the materials of the building for for your monument sign. >> Yeah. So I I don't think ground signs in our definition
>> if we cover up the pole it doesn't become a ground sign >> only if you cover it with consistent material issues on the building if if you require your pole sign to have the same coverage that match the building that's just your ground sign. So for a stuckcoed building, maybe a stuckcoed
>> pole it appears on stucco. >> We could change that to just structure it to certain kinds of facade like a faux stone or real stone or um wood or something instead of matching buildings
because our buildings right now is isn't necessarily something you want to match. And >> a lot of the signs are metal. Some of them are concrete block and steel. Um they're not just wooden poles. Very few of them are wooden poles. Most of them are concrete with steel. Um and then
they also make like said metal and they'll have a nice nice material on the outside to make it appealing. But uh I mean I'm not saying we should Why do we have so many pole signs in the city if they're outlawed right now? They're not legal. >> I cannot answer that question. Those
people before all of us. >> I mean that's just how you hold a sign up, Bob. >> Well, they're outlawed though, dude. Why are they here? because they've been there since 1950. >> So, what's the problem? >> Well, that's what I'm >> Well, not not true because
there's a poll sign. It's Walmart. So, >> right >> here here's here's my thing. Is there anything >> how we got here? Let's just see. >> Well, is there anything inherently obtrusive about that sign? >> I don't think so. >> You know, without the fact the electrics
on the bottom are falling apart. Looks like a a spring broke in it and it should be aesthetically zoning should say, "Hey Walmart, your sign looks a little funky there. Can you please address that because it looks like it went boing at the bottom." >> There's a Han sign. Obviously, that's not a pole sign, although it's probably got two poles underneath there.
>> Is that any Does that look any better? >> Does that one meet the current code for height restrictions and such? Also out of compliance, Honda, but it's high. >> Honda said they're changing that. They're going with the lower that recent
studies have shown that lower is more effective. >> Yeah, people see it better. >> But I just wondered like if >> but currently are they >> currently not that I'm trying to get it changed or anything but it almost seems like a study would be a good pass what
we need to pass um as far as this >> a great example. Charlie changed and um >> whatever else we were here sign been there for a long time even it used to be a
>> what they did was replace it >> yeah they just replace the glass in it right >> yeah and I'm okay with that >> they have a good life then these p signs are dirty >> that's what sounds like they just don't >> I think it's a feudal exercise to get rid of >> p signs
you know let's worry about make sure that to maintain your pole sign, >> keep it painted. >> There are so many different >> signs out there that need to be maintained right now that are falling apart. People didn't fix them after the storm. They didn't put light bulbs in them. The electric's falling off of That's what we should be addressing is
not maintain. >> There's one right there. Go back. There's a broken sign right there. >> There's a lot of broken signs. >> Well, this might be this older image. It might It might be fixes to drive around. pull sides from this thing here. >> I agree. >> Strike what you tell me to strike.
>> Second that. >> Motion Christine. Second it. >> Any objection work consensus like >> Yeah. Is there any objections to remove the poll signs? >> No, I have no problem. >> Done. >> Done.
>> Two readings and remove them. John's done here. Let's go. moving them from the ordinance, not to remove pull signs, >> right? Yeah. Remove it from the ordinance. So, so we would allow pull signs and I knew what he meant, but I didn't make sure people >> English isn't tricky. Mayor's on his way
out now to pull hole out. >> So, we That was number 15. So, let's jump back up to the top here. Can't go through these. If I may, am I hearing a consensus that you'd like us to redouble our efforts on code enforcement to uh make sure that signs that are
dilapidated, >> paint, rusting, whatever, that we start citing those as >> need for improvement? >> Yes, sir. >> I I would say when you say sighting, you're talking about give notice to to fix it or whatever. >> Yeah. Notice
>> citation is is a subsequent step. Yeah. It could be dangerous. >> Shake their hand. Tell them you're from the government. We're here to help. Thanks for being in our city and spending. Yeah. No, we're here for the >> We're from the government. We're here to help. >> By the way, you may not have known this, but
>> the the city official must have a smile on her face. >> Smile required. >> Has Pat ever smiled? I've never said >> always got a smile on her face. >> That smile is when he comes over. >> Okay. So activated science and devices
was strucken out because that was something that >> that's PNZ >> P&Z wanted to allow them. So and and what' I say? >> Okay. Where what page are we on? I got lost sharing screen. >> 15. Page 15.
>> 17. >> Why do you want to jump to 15? >> Oh, so we we talked about poll signs, but it was number 15. So I'm going back up the top of the list. Page 15 or number >> Oh, no. I'm sorry. Page 17. >> Okay. >> Page 17. Okay. >> It was item 15 of 1213 that we were on
whole sign. We're going to go back to number one and go down the list. Activate signs devices planning and zoning removed. So, we're going to start allowing those revolving signs. Now, those are signs that >> two different >> spin. >> Yeah, we don't want those.
>> Any objections to leaving that? >> Wait a second. >> No, >> I make a motion to leave. You have to make money. >> Let's not go ahead. >> We're on revolving signs. Is there any objections? >> Does somebody want to allow those?
>> No. >> No. >> Good. Okay. On the same page there. >> Okay. >> Snipe sign. >> Barbber. >> Oh, bugger poles. >> Barber ps are okay. >> That's a good point. >> Barber poles are okay. >> Unless it's a barber pole. Snipe sign
means a sign made of any material when such sign is tacked, posted, nailed, glued, or otherwise attached to any pole, tree, or other natural feature, fence, fence, post, bench, stake, or other sign, or other similar objects located on the public or fiber right
away. The term snipe sign does not include real estate, sale sign, warning signs, open house signs, >> a garage sale, >> missing dog sign. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, sounds like it. >> But in order to be a snipe sign, it has to be in the rightway.
>> Oh, it could be a private property. >> Located on public or >> so located on public or private property? >> Oh, so >> yeah, I'm I'm good with no snipe signs. I'm good with that. Can I take this down to 24? >> What? I don't think
>> No. Why we got to jump or 34 the next thing down? >> Three. It's >> three. They're reumbered. See, >> it's crossed. >> Well, okay. Well, yeah. Three. >> One thing before we go. Snipe signs. So, election signs, for example, those would be technically snipe signs,
>> but they have a special exemption, right? Just make sure we >> um I don't >> we allow them as long as they're not in the rightway. >> I think in the rightway they get pulled, >> right? We'll discuss that later. But but I mean, election signs and garage sale signs and all those things, those are
all signs. Um >> it's the signs you see driving down the road and all of a sudden there's a sign, you know, the little sign is shoved in there right away on the side of the road that's not necessarily like the tour signs meant to be. That's kind of idea. >> I mean political signs are a different story later on somewhere.
>> Election signs are addressed in here later on somewhere. Are they? >> I don't remember. >> I think you gave us 72 hours. >> Okay. All right. We'll come back to some signs that are snipe signs that are
allowed. I know that's later on. So, I think we're good here. So, the next one, >> signs other than sandwich signs placed on sidewalk cur. So, so we're going to tell everybody who serves a cup of coffee or a bowl of soup, you can't put a sign up there, but to make a sandwich, you put a sign up sign is a little
A-frame. Oh, okay. >> I thought that last night, too. I was looking at a sandwich sign and saw, you know, those they collapse. >> I mean, it's like, you know, hot roast beef sandwiches here. >> Special on it. That's been sick for
three days. That was funny. your sandwich sign is a sign that consists of one or two side I'm sorry let me run it again one or two sign faces connect you should read it >> sandwich sign means a sign which consists of one or two sign faces
connected at the top with either hinges or fixed fastening devices is not permanently erected on the site and may rarely be moved from place to place >> like what you see in front of the ice cream >> but it can be moved >> yes Richie they always have one out fronti >> melted did in the ice cream shop
downtown Newport. Richie, they always have those signs where you can write on. >> Those are so I got one that I put up whenever I had charters so people could tell where to park. >> Yeah. The only temporary sign. >> So, only thing you can have is a sandwich.
>> It's a safety issue. >> Good. >> No problem with that. Okay. Swing. >> They call it an A-frame sign. >> I don't know why they call them sandwich signs. That's interesting. Google there. >> Makes me hungry. >> Yeah. Swinging signs. So, this is an interesting thing. Um, a lot of times,
and I'll give you example, a real estate sign out front, they got a little little swinging thing on it that uh has the maybe the realtor's name or something on it or sold or whatever. So, >> realtor on duty. >> Yeah, exactly. Agent on duty. >> Agent on duty. Um,
>> what's our definition of swing sign? >> I was just looking. I don't think you have one. >> I was in Myrtle Beach. I was in St. Augustine. a lot of signs hanging in front of their businesses. They look nice, but
you got they're limited to how how big they are and where they're located. >> Yeah. And honestly, you won't want a big old swinging sign out on 19 hurricane comes through that sucker. >> So, >> oh my god. I can't believe he >> Well, that's what that's what if you take it out. >> Yeah. Well, well, you can have it say it
could be one one foot by two foot sign in front of the business or attached to the business or the building. >> Yeah, I think it needs to be relatively small if it's >> right that would be >> if you want to allow it. I can look at other jurisdictions and generally what people allow. >> Yeah. See how that gets
>> handled because that's uh >> because you want to develop >> the waterfront or the main street or something like that, you're going to have little signs. >> Yeah. There's more like if you're downtown a little business district or whatever, right? Exactly. You could have little smaller swings. >> I think they they they're done, right? They look nice. And actually in St.
Augustine, they all were kind of the same kind of design. >> Yeah. >> And they're all same size. And they look pretty nice. >> And and this this even goes for the numbers on your mailbox if you had that's a swinging sign. So >> Oh, here's one, too. >> So, she's going to look at that.
>> Swinging sign. That's nice. >> Uh vehicle signs were scrapped. Um so then we go to number five. Any sign which has unshield illuminated device produce glare or hazard nuisance. Do lighting throw me cause of radio television? I think it's all good unless
you guys disagree. Um is erected or maintained so as to obstruct firefighting equipment window door. This is interesting. So when I read this um if I put a sign in my window which there are there are window signs
available. What um you know what's it mean by obstruct to me? If it's if if a sign is in the window, it's obstructing the the window. And so that would seem like that would
mean any sign in the window would need to be removed, but I know we have window signs. >> They're temporary. >> They won't put a sign in your window. I think the idea would be first time someone brought this up. So for someone thinking about it, but is is it obstructing
um in this case firefighting equipment if they can just knock it over and move it? I mean just if it's on there and they can just knock it down, it's not really obstructing them. If it's I think the idea is it's not something that's placed there that's going to slow them down in any fashion, right? Big it's big. It's bulky. It's you know something like that. That would be my thought.
>> It's it's like a lead anvil sign or something like that. >> That would be my thought. I think that, you know, if it's a if it's a sign that you paint on the window, obviously you can break the window. If it's a sign you just place in front of the window that meets the requirements of a window sign, >> it's not to obstruct. I wouldn't think to
obstruct it, but >> well, that requires for proper light and ventilation. Just want to make sure we weren't going crazy there. I think it's okay. Project's in excess of 18 inches over a dedicated public street. I think it's fine. Um
>> that's a over the sidewalk too. That leaves what about 30 inches left on the sidewalk if hang signs overhang >> or sidewalks typically 4 feet and >> typically four feet I think. Yeah.
>> Is 30 in enough for a bicyclist to get by? >> Um >> I don't know. It's okay. >> A lot of times when brush is coming over the sidewalks. I'm on the sidewalks a lot. >> My little scooter. Um when brush is
coming over a sign or something, it is hard to get by those. Um gets kind of dangerous. >> I think there's is there another section that talks about projecting over public right away? Um I know this talks about it, but >> I thought there was something else too
that you couldn't have it projecting over. So this this may be somewhat contradictory and I'm assuming that maybe this would have to emanate outside of the rideway that would project into the rideway
over the street alley sidewalk or private open roadway. Oh, so this is this is um these are Never mind. So, basically what this says, if it was 18 or less, you could do it. >> Yes. >> Right. So, I'd rather not project over
the uh sidewalk because it gets difficult to sidewalks when stuff is encroaching over them. >> Let's highlight that and make sure. I want to say there's something else on down that may be somewhat contradictory.
Um, okay. Bent signs located on private property. This is one I definitely don't understand why we why we don't allow bench signs on your private property. >> The people before you chose to >> What does that mean? Like >> call a lawyer or whatever. >> Oh, that okay. >> People have businesses and they put a
bench in a place for the consumer to sit or whatever and they'll put a little something on it and it might be something like, you know, have a great day. Jesus loves you. I don't know what it might do on you know. >> Are we going to start telling people what they can put on the bench at the front? No, I think that we we can maybe
decide on what kind of bench or maybe a couple designs that the city approves for a bench. >> Okay, you have to look at your definition. So, your definition of bench sign, this may change what you're thinking. Bench sign is a bench whose primary purpose is collateral with the providing with providing transportation service to the public upon which a sign
is indel indelibly drawn, painted or printed. >> So, I think that it means a bus stop. It's not like >> is it on private property? I'm just telling you what your definition of bench sign is. >> So, but I mean in context of this section or number eight bench sign
located on private property >> chair for somebody to sit on when they're waiting for the fuss. >> They sell the advertisement that >> right >> that's what the >> what's wrong with that? >> Nothing wrong with that. >> I don't think it's going to be >> I guess the point is you wouldn't want it on someone's private property. All of
a sudden you put a bench in your front yard. If I want to put a bench in my front yard and say uh shop Bob's widgets, I'll be able to do that. >> Well, I think aesthetically you guys might not want to promote that, but that's >> I I think >> Well, we can put a we put a sign up, does it? Just can't be on a bench. >> Well, you can't put any sign. I mean,
>> what's one scenario we're dealing with in the city or have in the last 10 years that has to do with the bench sign, then we're like, hey, that's a problem. If there's not one, I think the whole thing. >> Well, maybe it's not a problem because we don't allow it. >> We don't hopefully
your problem. >> So you guys don't care what size or what design or what this bench looks like. It doesn't matter. >> Well, we can't control the language on the sign. >> I'm not saying that. I'm talking about the design of just the bench itself. The signing. They got an area. They got they can only put so much on it on a bench unless they make a 10t by
>> Well, this is for this this 10 foot high bench is for the big people. Doesn't have anything against the code. They can't do it. So, >> we have anything in the code restricting the size of a bench. That's what I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Again, I don't know that we have a problem.
>> Not now. No, >> prohibited right now. >> It's prohibited. So, in theory, >> no. It says bench signs located on private property. It doesn't say bench signs located on public property or no street, the rightway. And every bench sign I know is located in the rightway.
So, none of that would apply to us because we're not on private property. But if you were a business, >> right, >> and you want to give them >> and you put a bench outside your business and you advertise your business, if there's a bus stop from my business and the people are constantly, you know,
standing up waiting for the bus and I want to let them sit down. >> Let me ask you this, Nancy. If you put your sign on the bench, you still are limited to the size restrictions that a sign can be. Just because it's the bench don't mean you can make a enormous bench. You still
have to >> So you can only get so big on a sign anyway. >> So on >> size matter sometimes. >> It does. It does. A bench can be very offensive. It was big enough. >> It can. >> I only know a couple benches that people
are sitting down at the city that have signs in the back of Right. There's one down there in front of the old gambling ship place right there. What's it called? >> Sanford. >> Sun. San waterfront which is nice. We should be allowed to business weren't to advertise
on those benches. They should be allowed to. >> This it'd be nice if all the benches were uniform in the city at all. >> I mean, almost all the benches are pretty uniform, right? They have a bottom and a back, you know. >> They don't have my boys built in. So, I'm just I'm getting a little facitious.
I'm just making >> Okay, Bob. I got a little physicious >> and I don't I don't want the city to become HOA, >> right? >> Okay. And so, we start talking about you only do these colors, your benches can only look like this. you're an HOA at that point. Um, and if you if if an HOA
wants to put something like that, that's a whole another >> and if the if this business has a characteristic for that particular business, they want to have a bench that match that characteristic, but it doesn't match what we want, then that would be a problem, too. So, I agree. >> Yeah. >> So, I think we strike that.
>> I think we strike it. >> You guys agree? >> I'd get my bench sign. I've been wanting to get abandoned. >> It didn't need a paper. >> There's going to be an investigation now. >> Yeah. Who wants a bench sign? Um
>> waiters put on your lot. >> Uh abandoned sign. So if you could elaborate a little bit on that >> means that they're you know I guess you had a sign and you you uh went out of business and it's just
>> essentially abandoned sign is any non-conforming on premise signs on the premises of the of the place we're talking about. Our signed structure which bears no sign. It's gotten blown out. Our copy for a period of six consecutive months or that displays for
a period of six consecutive months information which identifies a business owner less or principal activity conducted on the site which no longer exists on the site but which through age, lack of maintenance or obso obsolescence no longer conforms to the applicable structures or maintenance
standards. damage goes on there. >> I think there's another place for you have a you're supposed to keep up maintain it. There's a there's a provision for that. >> So here here's >> this is just a sign that you know you had a business and you left and you left the sign there and seven months later that
>> here's a concern >> on this. There's a property out there that has a permanent sign on it that was that was there. Okay. It they went out of business. It's sads and all this other stuff in the six months has transpired. let's say
happened to lean they so they went away and the sign is out there at some point Minnesota's going to own that and and and probably want to take that sign and rehab it, dress it up, use it for for their purposes, right? But what this is telling me is is basically the current
property owner once that sign is no longer used 6 months, they need to tear it down. >> That's right. and a lot in especially a commercial lot that already has a a sign there that's grandfathered in, they would want to
want to leverage that sign. Um, can we put in some language that says you're not me? Usually you're all over me. >> So, so you know, >> make sure I didn't wrong. I think an abandoned sign as long as it's currently
>> kept up. >> Well, the building's for lease or for sale >> must have a lease or for sale sign. Yeah. >> In it that it must be maintain. It can't be left vacant. Could we write something in that it must have >> a sign? >> Pretty obvious.
Well, again, so let's let's say that um let's say >> think about think about a lot that somebody's holding on to with a vacant sign with an abandoned sign. >> That's what I'm think >> but they're Yeah, they're not even trying to sell that property. >> So,
>> but again, it's it's a it's kind of like I look at the sign on at least from a commercial standpoint, it's it's a it's an asset of the property, >> right? It's a sign that it's going to be used at some point if it buys. I buy it as an investment or I buy it and I went out of business and I'm I'm waiting for
the market to turn around or whatever. You know, right now what's happening is the code says 6 months after that I got to tear it to ground and it may be a beautiful sign, but because it's no longer actively being used um the code is forcing me to tear it down or quickly sell the property, change hands and that
person has six months to get it up and running again. It's just, you know, >> is is do we need to adjust the time period? Maybe, >> you know, >> well, >> I can I don't I don't think an abandoned sign is a bad thing. Um because at some
point it's at some point in future again, real estate transactions like that may take a long time. I I think you just you need to maintain it like you maintain your grass, right? Just because you're like it has to have a covering or it has to have something on it. >> It needs pain or whatever. Maybe it needs to be
>> Let me Let me propose this. Let's say you have a business and it goes under. You're no longer going to have a business. Maybe you're trying to sell. Maybe you're holding on the property thinking you're going to come to the next next business idea. Meanwhile, the actual writing in your
sign um >> it fades. It damaged. The pole itself needs some repair. It's been seven months, eight months, nine months, 10 months. You just looked at pictures and said those need to be updated. I may not care. Okay. I I
you give I have my six months. You you cite me whatever. I may not care about it. Um if you take a I may care about it and now I have code compliance. We go to the special magistrate. It's going to be fine per day if I keep doing it. If you take it away, what what what do you have
to get that person to finally make it look nicer? You know, how long is too long? Is it a year from now? is stated and and you still can do nothing because you've taken away is and again you guys are your own and you do your own thing. Every city I know of has an abandoned sign policy. >> I agree. >> You don't want people to abandon signs.
If you take this out, you're going to have more areas that look bad than you do now. >> Can't go out and do anything. >> Let me a real example and I see your point for sure. >> That's just one side to think of it that way. >> So Chamber of Commerce over there,
right? Um there's a sign there existing. That building was for sale a long time. That sign's been abandoned for a long time. So technic it should be tore down based on the code. It hasn't. So what's going to happen um is and I I know he was uh he was looking at grants to
actually work on that sign. Um that uh he got coming to get a permit to do that and based on its current state, it's abandoned. And so he no longer is able to use that sign. >> But based on the current state, what? It's abandoned because it's it's past the six months. I mean, he's chron's
been there for a year plus, two years almost. >> And they're going to come in and ask to It's abandoned. If it's abandoned, if someone's going to use it, it's no longer abandoned, >> right? As long as they're doing what they need to. >> That would be for tearing it down. for code to take action, codes to take
action and tear the sign down. Not for when you come in like if you got away if somebody got away with it and they came in and they're getting ready to make the sign nice again. Not a reason to say, "Well, it's been abandoned, so no, you can't." >> All right. So, let me ask you this. So,
so if somebody comes in and wants to uh wants to use their sign and it's been in an abandoned state and we're not going to stop. In all the years I've been here, we've never told someone that it's got to come down. We've never demolished the sign.
>> That's great. >> Someone's fixed going to use it. >> If someone's going to use it, they need to rehab it and bring it back. >> This is a this is a nice code to have there in case we have a problem. But it's not necessarily you're not running around there with your billy club one
hand and the cut cut the sign out with the other one. Okay. >> I I know where you're going. Just because they have been enforced doesn't mean they won't enforce. That's right. Very true. anything that's that depend that that becomes his uh flavor of the day. I'm going to go through and I'm going to >> That's true. If you have a law a rule,
you want to make sure you're okay with having that rule. What I'm suggesting is you want something that addresses the abandoned signs. If not, you probably 70% of these rules can be abused. >> Well, anything could not abusive. >> Why don't we Why don't we state do we we
have a definition of abandoned signs? um that uh once the city has determined a sign has been abandoned, okay? Uh a property owner has so much time to unabandon it. I mean, if you own
a property and you don't have a tenant at the time and they say, "Hey, your sign's dilapidated. It's falling down. You know, whatever. The wiring is not hooked up correct, whatever." If you fix it up and put a for lease sign in there, is that that's all still >> that's fine, too. What we generally ask
is that you take the business name down. And so sometimes you could just take those signs and turn them inside out. >> Didn't it say something about coming soon and aband for sale? >> Um, no. It's just saying hold on. Um, non-conforming on premises sign or sign
structure which bears no sign or copy for a period of six months. So the sign's missing. That would be one thing. or that displays for a period of six consecutive months information which identifies a business owner lesser or principal activity conducted on the site which no longer exists. >> Yeah. So, and we just ask them to put
white boards in or turn the board inside out so that you can't see that business name anymore. That's >> or take them out entirely so that there aren't cracked signs >> in there. Require that they maintain the signs paint or something. Can we require that
they keep the sign? Well, the smart thing is to put for lease or for sale in there. I mean, that would be the smart thing, >> but it's not often for lease or sale. Sometimes people are just holding on to property and they're they're not attempting to lease it or >> they need to fix their sign up like you said. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
>> Yeah. The white board in know. I like that idea. Just make sure they white it out on both sides, you know, that way it's not distracting. It's not lying. We're not still >> That's what it's basically says. which
bears no sign or copy for a period of six months. So basically you black out or whatever. And this is this is this is a chamber sign. It has nothing on there. It's blacked out, right? Um and so and it's not for the chamber. I mean I've got I've got a sign structure on my commercial property that I intend to put
back together, but it doesn't have any sign in there just poles. So and you're going to have that across the city. These properties that have that have gone past six months that don't have anything going on on them. Um but this says it's abandoned. the city could take to come in there and say tear down.
>> No, we what we need to do is require that these lots that aren't for sale that are along 19 or commercial lots at all that aren't for sale are maintained mowed signage kept up um fencing kept up
trash removed from them. So if we can write something into the code now that requires that the sign be maintained so that >> in that >> what is a section 12112 is called is the maintenance of signs and this is not new language it's what you had before um and
basically says that it says include supports braces guides and anchors shall be maintained so as to present a neat clean appearance painted areas and signed surfaces shall be kept in good condition and illumination if provided shall be maintained in safe and good working order. trash, rubbish, and
debris shall be kept clear in front of, behind, underneath, or around the base of signs for a distance of five feet. >> And then could we add add something in about um signs no longer in use? How how those are handled >> as far as the signage either being
removed or replaced with a whiteboard or something? >> I haven't read this. I'm going to read it out loud. I'm going to hear it for the first time the next I mean, I've read it. I don't remember what it says. Um under underneath that in section as outdated on outdated on-site signs which says this um refers to on-site signs
that are not currently being used to identify an activity on the property whether not but that are not abandoned signs as defined by this chapter. Such signs shall be maintained including at all times covering the inner fixtures or workings of the sign. copy that does not relate to a current activity on the property shall be removed or covered
with an opaque covering so that such signs maintain a clean and neat appearance which is what Veronica was just explaining. >> Yeah. The the the big issue I have with this to me sign is a piece of the real estate and I liken this to let's say that I buy a property that has a sign
and I start out break my business or whatever in the property but one room of that business remains unoccupied. you know, maybe I'm going to make an office, maybe do that. A sign's no different. Maybe I'm just not going to use a sign right now. It's still a viable part of
my property and it, you know, it should really be able to be there unactive as long as it's maintained and all that. >> White sides. White sides. >> Well, that's what section 121-2. >> Right. But but abandoned
>> that wouldn't be abandoned if you're you may not be using it, but you're you have the opaque covering in it. Oh, so so then so basically well abandon specifically the definition said if it was didn't have any copy or >> this this talks about it shall be maintained including and covering the inner fixtures or working workings of
the sign copy that does not relate to a current activity shall be removed or covered with an opaque covering. So I think that's where Veronic is telling you they have you flip that over so the the obsolete business isn't being advertised or whatever but it's not >> so long the signs maintain all that it's it could be blank and be blank forever.
That's not a bad word. Okay. According to this, then we're good. The idea the abandoned is truly broken, abandoned, falling down. No one cares. The business nobody's doing anything about it. >> You don't want that. >> Gotcha. >> I don't think you want that. >> Yeah. No, >> but I see what you're saying. If it's if it's there and you're waiting for the
next business to come in or what you're going to do next, there is a way to As long as you maintain it, you're >> by I know you were jumping to this earlier. Inflatable signs or devices. >> Leave it in. We don't want them. You don't like the big old gorilla?
Uh, >> the big old tax thing. >> Well, the gorilla's cool. >> Except for gorillas. >> Oh, yeah. Honda Honda has a cool gorilla. He's got a smile. He's got a cigar. It's pretty cool. >> I mean, us car dealers, we have that Car Fox. That thing's 30 feet tall. They
bring it to one dealership, drop it off for a week. >> So, those are illegal. Yeah, >> those are temporary. No, I I think on a a temporary basis they should be allowed. >> So you want to put maybe three months beowed. >> Nancy that you may want to check into
with DMV because I know that the on the highway that was an issue that was a distraction to motorists and um I I don't remember where I read that but that was one with the animals that go all over the you know. >> Well that's a shaking that's a band driven thing that's different than the
gorilla. prohibited >> about the fume. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Prohibited by state or federal law. This like being a flable gorilla that Ocean put up on the weekend, >> right? >> Yeah. >> They should be allowed to do that. >> I think so too.
>> You guys missed an opportunity there to which we never really uh we never really enforce that because you have a lot of grand openings and people want to do something like that. Exact. We allowed them, you know, we're not out there
>> enforcing that. >> We're not looking at agreeing. So, let's take it out of code. somebody in Cologne and all of a sudden said, >> "But well but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but once you take it out and you don't regulate it they would have >> I think we time frame behind them >> you know business location on the property frame size you might want to
>> they may be having a special sale that weekend or something and then they're throwing them up >> right so I think you just put permanent inflatable signs and that way temporary signs we allow inflatables >> in the same vein as we do temporary signs. So that's the inflatable signs. I was thinking of something inflate.
>> Well, temporary signs we allow for 30 days. >> And so what I'm saying is is that we we outlaw permanent inflatable signs. So it's not something just year round. They have it there. >> But we but so that would say that means temporary inflatable signs would be
allowed in temporary signs. We could we could say if it's inflatable, we give them 60, 30, 15 or whatever. But it becomes a temporary sign at that point. >> Inflatables. Yeah, it's always temporary. beacon lights. >> Um,
that's like the yellow flashing. >> We have We have one on 19 now. It's that really bright flashing blue light. Come over the bridge. You're going north and looks like It looks like there's a state trooper over there all the time. >> Yeah, that's a problem. >> Is it on the one? No, it's at that vape
shop, I think it is, or cannabis shop right there next to the um the T restaurant right there on 19. >> It's a solid blue. >> No, it's it's like it looks like a a state troopers like >> blue. It's a blue flashing light. That's a beacon light.
>> Is it on Is it on the east side? >> On the west side >> cuz I saw one on the east side, but that was in Newport, Richie. >> No, this is on the west side. We see it all the time. It looks like there's a state trooper over in front of the vape shop. I think the vape used to be a tire shop.
>> Yes, it looks like it's over there. >> Heading north on 19, but it was in Newport. >> No, that's on the other side. That's on our side of the bridge. >> What's is a beacon? Is it >> What's our definition? >> Your definition is >> I mean a beacon is a beacon.
>> Oh, that's a flashing light, right? any light source whether fixed or activated which is designed to attract attention to a specific location thing or place. So it could be steady, it could be blinking, rotating, >> you know, here, come here, come here. Look at attention.
>> Pay attention. >> I I don't think we should have them. They should be should still be uh illegal because they're they're definitely a hazard for drivers. And what about those uh spotlights, the shine spotlights up in those aren't
beacon lights? >> I don't even see those anymore. You talking about the big driving lights anymore? >> I see them in Orlando a lot. I don't see them. I've never seen any around here. >> What are they? >> Some of the the beam lights in the sky. >> Oh, they just light up. >> Yeah. See that?
>> Those might even be illegal, Bob, because of airplanes and stuff. They're >> Well, yeah. They can't be in a flight zone, but I don't I don't That's considered >> be something temporary if you're having an event or something. I think >> be a big grand opener, big event. Yeah. >> So, I don't know. >> Are those considered beacon lights? >> I'm sorry, I got distracted. My
>> those big spotlights that they shine way up in the sky and they kind of >> those might be There's another It could be because you're drawing drawing attention like to the location, but I think there's another one that talks about they go straight up. >> I actually like those beam like there's a demonstrative beam light and and a
beacon light. >> I think so. I just wonder I don't see that on here. >> Yeah, beacon like me is like sits on top is a flashing emergency vehicle or something like that, >> right? >> Like a lighthouse light on top of a
navigation marker. That's a beacon light. >> Except for your yours. Um, you have your light being fixed or activated. >> Okay. >> Back to back signs. >> So, roof roof signs were taken out by
planning and zoning. So, we're going to allow those, which I good with. Backto back signs with what? You guys do roof signs too, I guess. Right. >> That's a sandwich sign, isn't it? >> No, the roof >> sandwich is that little A-frame sign. >> 45 degree. Oh, >> roof sign on your roof.
>> I'm not talking about I'm talking back to back sign. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I just make sure you go with roof signs being out. >> That's out there. >> You can have a roof sign. Okay. So, make sure you guys shrimp shack. No, they can have a roof sign. >> River has a roof sign. >> Ram river. Yeah,
>> has a roof sign. lot through signs. Uh it's a backto-back sign with faces at an angle that exceeds 45 degrees. >> I don't know what that is. >> I went back to your sandwich sign of definition and it doesn't have any angle
requirement. It's just one or two side faces connected to the top. I >> Yeah. >> Isn't it back to back at sign? >> That's what I thought. That's what I thought. >> Sandwich sign has to be portable. move it around. So, probably what this is is
saying you can't have any back to back signs >> at that angle that's permanent. So, >> what that mean? Gotcha. Okay. Leave it there. Yeah, leave it there. We'll give her that. [Music] >> Um, window. Okay, this is a big one.
Window signs. So, obviously, um, they don't apply. So, we'll hand that down to 12149. So, this basically just saying that, uh, we don't allow window signs unless they comply with that section. um signs in or upon any river, bay, lake, or other body of water within the
limits of the city. >> I disagree with that. >> I would I would agree as well. There is a for real estate signs. You can have a real estate if you have a waterfront property, you can have one in the front and one in the back on the water side if it's navigable. Well, I think if
business >> enter upon the river, bay or lake, does that are they saying in the water itself in it or on top of the water >> notes in or river bay?
>> Yeah, it Well, here's a good example. >> Okay, >> there's a tiki thing. He's got a tiki thing sitting out in the middle of the the river there >> um with his tiki boat sign on it. >> Charter boats do too. So, >> they do. They're signs. I mean, they're
wrapped. So, yeah. But if you look at the next one, signs attached or painted on peers, seaw walls, other than official regulatory warning signs, that should be taken out. But signs in or up on any river, bay, lake, that should be left in there because you don't want
someone putting a sign or float. That's why I said inflatable or floating sign out in the river being a navigational hazard. It could float around out there. Uh like you said that tikia that's I'm not telling him he needs to take it down but that's a good example >> attached to a commercial
>> well and I will say that so that that where he's got that >> uh but let's attach >> to cuz that's actually his ty boat that he uses the signs on that. So, but he that's a very >> I don't know I don't know if he can
legally dump that there or not because it's >> it's not in the middle of he can it's not it's not in >> it's actually good it's there because it keeps people out of that because it's a very low spot there. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's always pretty much >> but
painted on peers or side seaw walls should be limited like two foot by 3 foot. So like docking for this restaurant or this restaurant. They put I don't want to put a big six foot sign out there, but they can put a 2 by3 foot sign out there. >> Docking for Hooters or whatever,
>> right? And I'm trying to design city docks at Nick Park. They should have, you know, we I'd like to have a sign out there saying this is for citizens for or it's parking $5 for docking for the day unless you have a city pass or resident.
And then you can have also private docking that we're going to charge yachts for has got power, water, and Wi-Fi. So signs for that or or Hooters wants to put a sign out there docking for Hooters only, they can do that. >> So how do we change? >> That would be considered a warning sign though. If it's for Hooters only, isn't
that like a term in there? Also official regulatory. I don't know what that encompasses. That might mean that if it's a business and it's, you know, park park only, you know, you only can come here for this business, that might fall under that definition. >> Official regulator is like idle speed
only. >> That's where my first my first thought went, but I don't know. It may not it may encompass more than that. That's what I'm saying. >> Rock or whatever. >> What you say? >> No zone. >> Right. >> But as far as like a business wants to
put, I think they should be allowed to put a sign on their dock. You know, I I think maybe probably why this is in here is if you go say you go up down residential canal area, you probably don't want to see everybody's seaw wall painted with signs all down through there. I guess probably what
that's leaning towards. Obviously, if you're on a commercial area or restaurant, they want to do something that's somewhat different, but >> you could and again is a if I paint a mural on my seaw wall, is that a sign? >> A sign can
We talked about this. You have murals is um covered in somewhere else in your code. It's, you know, it's artwork. If it's if it's conveying like I think the the conversation with Lady in the coffee shop or something, she put something on the side that was conveying that's what it was. That would be >> fine. But if
coffee then fine, >> but there's other provisions in the code that you'd have to meet that I'm not giving the sign to >> which that seems to me kind of stupid. Anyway, you know, that's like uh that's the whole fence conversation on waterfront. You got to have some openings. But if you if you obscure it with landscaping bushes or whatever and
you can't see through it, that's okay. So if you paint a mural, but if you're coffee shop, you put a mirror on there, you can't have any reference to coffee in there and it it's just dumb some of this stuff. >> So are would you suggest we take that out or
>> I think you should I think you take it out uh but have it limited as far as size. That's all. >> You could always put residential signs attached to >> so that would you would be okay by with your commercial people.
>> Well, well, put Merry Christmas up on my on my dock. >> That's not a pier seaw wall. >> This is only peers or seaw walls though, not docks. >> Oh, well, >> you could pier underneath your dock. >> I have a pier.
>> Yeah, pier. pier would be considered Oh, that a pier is a dock, isn't it? >> It can be. Yeah, >> I was thinking pier like the things that hold the dock up. What are those called? >> I don't think there's a problem with people putting sign private property. I don't see that just happening.
>> No, I I I agree. Is that something that was existing? Yeah, this this existing can be defined to in two different ways. A pier can be underneath a dock that supports the dock or a pier can be itself. There's floating peers, peers, peers, floating dogs, floating peers.
There's post pier, too. That's that's permanent. C can we uh maybe look at some other language on >> if anybody doesn't >> Yeah. See if we have something a little more looser than just not at all. But yet, again, I think there's probably a point
here that you don't >> and the thought is you might want to allow some commercial but not necessarily >> private health, but no larger than certain size. I mean, you wouldn't you wouldn't want to go up down a canal and see uh you know FJB or or uh you know,
>> right? >> Trump's a jerk. You don't want stuff in the waterways on the seaw wall. >> You do see people advertising on their docks and that doesn't look bad as long as the signage is nice >> because some of those houses are
Airbnbs. So, like that real cute one with all the uh tropical colors in Newport Richie >> on Cody River. No, you know which one I'm talking about. >> Um, they have a Airbnb sign and then you also have those no manity signs and no
no wake manatees. >> No, I think all that stuff is good again. But I think the intent here was to keep some, you know, some stuff from >> that you don't want. So I if we maybe this would find something that might be a a better way to implement that as opposed to just can't do it. and see
what I can find. Not restrict everything. >> Uh pull signs. We uh we thoroughly discussed >> the bag of worms. >> Multi multi- prism signs. >> Prism signs. >> Yeah. Something that like flashes and turns real quick like this here. >> See if we got definition.
>> Yes. It is a sign made with a series of triangular vertical sections that turn and stop to show three pictures or messages in the copy area. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. We don't need those out. That sounds like something we don't even use anymore, doesn't it?
>> I picture like a disco ball type thing going on there. >> I don't think we have too many going on right now. >> Portable signs. This is interesting. >> That's led to signs on trailers or is that like on the side of the van? >> Uh what's the definition of portable sign? Sorry. >> Okay. My >> We're going to take a break here in
about two minutes. >> That's my It's a mom mode had to go on. >> Mom, sorry. Oh, I mean I think we I don't like the cheap signs on they don't see them anymore. It's on a trailer in >> Oh, yeah. With those rollers.
>> Yeah. Unlikely. But you got a van with a digital reader board on each side. We're driving around town advertising business. I don't have a problem. >> I don't think we regulate that. Here's we're getting >> portable sign is a sign other than a sandwich sign double or single faced which is not permanently erected on the site and which may readily be moved from
place to place provided that this def provided that this definition shall not apply to signs painted directly on vehicles or signs displayed through but not on windows. >> So those signs you tow behind whether it's digital or otherwise says you know >> yeah we don't want those. >> Okay, >> we can't regulate. I think I think it's
from a temporary standpoint. You you do if you want to advertise an event or whatever. When we had the uh the hurricane stuff, there was a big sign there to park the portal sign in the parking lot of the trailer park or the uh Hel Bay that said comfort station
down here. Whatever. That's for feeding people over here. >> And I'll give you an example. The say the chamber do does this market on the weekend or whatever. They might want to have one of those to uh let let people know that's there. Um so,
>> but you don't want those arrow signs on 19. Remember the old arrow signs that were on rollers and a business to roll them out to the edge of the road and it was you could get one at the flea market or something. >> But they have they got portable signs
that are digital too. really nice. >> And they have some are actually you can not just digital but you can put it look they look a lot better than the old ones like she said I don't like them old >> portable signs where people are trying to use portable signs on a permanent basis like >> yeah I think it's same same thing we did
for the inflatable >> your definition for portable is that it's not permanent >> right so to say in here whatever >> so we don't need to put that so basically we would just have taken out >> your portable sign definition means means a sign that
sign sign other than a sandwich sign double or single face which is not permanently erected. The idea is >> well not permanently erected. >> So you want to say >> so it's on wheels right? >> Yeah. >> I mean
you laugh for >> I'm just laughing. No. So you want to you want to allow >> this is the this is the career path you chose. I some days wonder. Some days I wonder. >> And the reason we have to be so thorough is because of you. >> I know. I know. Actually, I don't think this is Matt's fault. Matt started this,
right? Matt, I'm joking. No, he needed that paper sign. He needed that paper sign. >> I think it actually was just doing what he needed. >> It needed to happen. Um, so you want to allow portable signs as long as it's not a per permanently placed
and you want it to be on wheels only. That's just one example. >> I mean, it doesn't have to be on wheels. It just I mean, you you could tell it's it's not a fix to the ground. Maybe it be sets there. >> We'd like to be able to allow portable signs on a temporary basis so long as
people don't try to take advantage of it and >> they would still require a permit, >> right? >> Necessarily. >> Well, no, because right now we don't allow it. >> Yes. We need to remove it from here. Um But you also have some of those car
dealerships that will take a sign, even though the portable sign excludes the car signs, right? We've had businesses, car dealerships specifically, that will take cars and attach it to the windows of the car
that they have in the parking lot. And every day they can move that. So if we leave that, that's really allowing that. >> Well, they can do that anywhere. >> That's a portable sign. Right now we don't allow that >> signs in the car if it says for sale. >> Yeah.
>> So we use offsite signage. >> It's not attached to the building >> on the license plate bracket. Literally like bolts where the tag goes when they're on their license for sale. >> Oh, you guys do that? >> A lot of people do that. It's a really nice looking
bolt to tell your car is for sale or for sale. >> Well, actually the the window sticker is a sign, >> right? >> It is. That's a required in federal government. That's federal guidance. >> Well, that's on the window though. That's different. >> That's what she was saying that they don't allow the >> They're like banners. These are like
banners. They're maybe like 2 feet, 3 ft banner >> inside the car >> that on the outside of the windows and they tie them through the inside of the window. So, they lower the window, they tie them, and it goes across the front or the back of the car. The back window >> like kind of like a ribbon like wrapping
paper or something. They wrap around >> and they put cars for sale. just one like one in a business. >> So, and then every day they move it from car to car that would be a portable sign. >> I mean, >> so if you allow that, that's what we
could wind up having. >> We have we have so much other stuff to clean up that we shouldn't go after a couple car dealers that are trying to get people to come buy cars for us. >> I'm just saying that that's just what >> it's not one It's not in every car. or they just try to put it in one car on
the lot. That doesn't >> And that was one time in 15 years. >> Yeah. >> So that's not something that you see very often either. >> They can't use like white out or whatever that like it was a shoe marker
or whatever to write on cars. $5,000 anymore. They can't do that anymore. >> I was the king of shoe polish in my day. >> I remember that. >> Yeah. >> To put the price on me. Do you remember that they take white shoe polish right on the windows? $5,000 DN or whatever.
You know, you >> the We still do that. >> We don't allow that. >> I don't see it. >> I see business right in Christmas decorations. Car dealers do it. They write on the cars. They have a guy that comes by and they pay him put it on the car. You know, $5,000. >> Yeah, it's still going on. And I've seen
I've seen that in places where you can >> Hey, I know y'all don't like car dealers, but Okay. But we're we're some pretty good >> I don't see a problem with that. When I pass a car dealer, I expect to see the matter of fact, I want to see the prices in sheep buy. So I have to I don't have to go in pass the the the uh snake pit.
Go by the snake pit have somebody b me. >> All right. So you want look at allowing portable signs as long as you're not. >> Best idea. >> I like the car shop. >> I like the car talk. >> Can't paint every car. >> So So say it again. >> I say the goal for for portable signs is
you'd like you'd like to allow them as long as they're not permanent. >> Right. at this point. That's That's the That's the >> Yeah, I think it's what I'm hearing. >> Okay. >> Um pennants. That's like a that triangle thing. >> A pennant where you tie it on one side
of the lock and you bring it over to the other side of the lock, it's got little triangles. They're all yellow and flashy. >> Well, no, that's actually a uh >> that is those are pennants. Right. You guys define penned as any flag or streamer-like piece of cloth, plastic or paper attached to any stack, board,
building or other structure at only one or two edges. The remainder hangs loosely. >> So we have those those signs where they got big goes up and you got like a big flag and the flag that the business wrote down the side of it. We allow those.
>> Is that a sign? Well, it flutters in the wind, but pennant signs are like he said, they're basically the whole world of pennants. >> Same with balloons. >> What's that? >> Same thing with balloons. >> On sailboats, they go up like this, come
down. They come down >> sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, they've caught a ton of them. >> They'll have on fishing boats on the type of fish they've caught that day, how many they've caught that day. And >> Oh, yeah. You see them all over the place.
>> Do we have a problem in the city? >> Because Veronica's on them. >> This whole That's Veronica's big thing. No pet signs. >> You know, we're we're off. We're off for business because they need to promote, but at the same time, that's also trying to clean up. >> Right. right? And trying to clean up and
make it look aesthetically nice. So, the more we keep allowing all of these little things, you'd be surprised that people aren't going to start putting these things everywhere. >> But, I mean, I understand that we want signs, full signs and stuff, but the aesthetic I mean, that that's a
direction that we probably, you know, want to start heading into as well to clean it up. But, do we have this issue? No. I I don't think I've ever seen one up. Except that's my whole point. We're going to regulate something she's not
even written any actions on at all. >> Shouldn't have to hold on. >> Have you had to because car dealers don't necessarily go to the code before they hang those things across the lot? Okay. They're hanging across lot zoning
guys might say something. you know, here if you look at this like here's some examples with it as they you know and I can think about depending on what your business is or whatever or what kind of property you have, you know, they're they're this is decorative. Now, does it have to
actually say something to be a sign? >> So like this here, this picture here, you see that's just decoration. >> So that's not a sign. >> Penants penants are sales sales sales sales. But if each one of those pants, >> so if you put up one of these things here and you just doing this, no big
deal. >> But what happens? A storm comes through and they rip and they fly all over the place. >> You fix them or you buy a new >> I don't know if they get ripped and they're all over everybody else's property, you know. >> Well, that depends on what kind of car dealer you are. Take two different kinds right now. >> But that's the point. >> Yeah,
>> that's the point. >> I say penants stay >> not everybody behaves like you do, Chris. stay prohibited because from what I can find online about what a pennant sign is, they should not be allowed. And I think we need to look at portable signs. Again,
>> pennant decoration is okay. >> I'm good with that. Let's move on. >> Okay. >> Don't dig out those. >> What the hell is I want to What's a festune? >> I'm ordering mine right now. >> Oh, yeah. >> Those are okay.
>> They're not okay. You don't like those? That spoon is more like hammer pants. >> That's kind of like a dancing gorilla though. >> We we've allowed those. We we've allowed those uh grand openings, we've allowed them very temporarily for like a week.
>> Should we've allowed those a lot of the stuff in this code that's prohibited, we're we're we haven't either either seen or have had issues, major issues with them. Our biggest issue I think at this point is maintain the maintenance, right?
Maintain what you have >> and make it look nice. >> I think if I think we need to before we mess this up, we need to go back to portable signs and put a stronger restriction on it for like a 48 hour use only or something rather than just not
>> not putting a 7-day period or a 30-day period. >> I was just saying it used permanent. It really could. >> So, what do you think? Well, temporary signs already is 30 days. >> No, but I think it should be like 48 hours or something or like for for the weekend things at the park or of course
that's government, but I think if it is portable, it needs to be restricted to a weekend or a week opening maybe. Yeah, maybe seven days tops. >> Seven days maybe, >> not 30 days. >> They got they got a week >> because then they only have to go a
short time with they can drag it around the back. go a short time, put it out again as you know another time is typically longer than seven days. >> They can do that with any time frame actually. >> I just think you could run with portable
signs. >> The portable signs I think those could get >> Let me let me ask this. instead of removing portable signs that the sign and I don't know exactly what you all are picturing since having my child crisis at that moment but the things that you're picturing as portable are they really some other form of sign that
would fit in here like it could be a sandwich sign I'm thinking out >> she's thinking the wheels you roll it out >> right yeah and it could be could be digital today they're probably digital but back in the day they used to be you'd have letters and you would stick
them into those little slots and you could 50% off sale and drag it out to the street and there would be an arrow pointing to your business. Now they do now those are more uh digital. But if if you allow it for 30 days then they could
put that I mean that that would be a great way to advertise but do we really want to see it? I don't really see anything. >> They could they could make that into a sandwich right there within five feet of their door >> versus out there by the side of the road
or you know >> just and and the um inflatable signs. I was going to look at the time frames. So maybe we can kind of maybe have those. >> Well, you could put in here any signs that's being um abusing any of our
codes. And uh could >> you got to be specific. You can't say you can't say we don't you know when we when we decide it's long enough, you don't get to do it. They have to give them objective criteria so they know and code enforcement knows and it's not any misunderstanding. >> That's the hardest part of your job
right there. you like you know like the talking about the boats it needs to have a nice cover what does that mean objective criteria it's difficult >> I almost think >> you want to allow here you know leave leave it as a um
>> aow a prohibited >> I mean you're a lot of it anyway and if you try to restrict it >> I don't know that to I haven't heard anything that's any kind
of restriction that sounds like what we have in mind. Um, I think that could be abused if it's >> You don't think temporary is is just enough restriction? >> Portable. >> Well, look, right, but portable is >> I think you see portable signs out for 30 days and I don't think if people are
aware of that and they can start doing that and then everybody >> restrict the time frame long. >> Yeah, but we got back to 30 days. Like grand openings are >> by definition temporary is 30. They don't mean >> by definition they could roll behind their building for two days and bring it back out for another 30
>> 48 hours two times a year. >> That's why I was in my thought it sounds like that >> what what I'm visioning and what you're telling me. Maybe I'm picturing it wrong. If they really wanted that sort of sign, there was something else they could do that would not be considered a portal sign. >> Sure. Sure.
>> Oh, I see what you're saying. Now fireworks alternative that is within co >> fireworks has their their tent up for 6 weeks and they'll have a temporary sign out there for the whole time. So, temporary signs section 121-10 states
that unless otherwise specified in this chapter, all temporary signs shall not be posted more than 15 calendar days prior to the time of the event or activity to which they are related and shall be removed no later than five calendar days after the conclusion of
the event or >> 20 >> duration, right? Well, >> the maximum duration >> and so whatever the duration is. >> So, okay. So the maximum duration of an event or activity shall be no longer than two weeks.
>> Okay. So you got 14 plus 15 which is 29 + 5 which is 34. So roughly a month max would be on sign. So these are permitted >> right? If we if we allowed them they would be
>> permitted. So I think that would >> if they allowed portable signs would they be permitted? Oh, you have some signs that don't require a permit, some do. You have to >> I would think it will. >> Signs will always require a permit because you're in a flood zone. >> Well, there are there are things that don't. I think we can get that. But if we if we wanted to allow for portable
signs, I think you have application. Right. >> Okay. Right. >> Um and it's it's uh it's temporary and whether we use the same temporary guidelines, which I would I I don't like creating special cases for special things. So, and I don't
think 34 days is a necessarily long time, but if it's um if we if we make it's a permittable item so that they have to get a permit every time, that kind of solves the problem of hey 30 48 I did my max 34 days, I got to come back
and get a permit again. This >> I guess we would have the ability to deny that because they already had one. one year. >> If it requires a permit, >> do that too. Permit you allow two years. >> Requires a permit. You can always deny it. Yeah.
>> So, I think that would solve the problem and it would open up the ability to do that. I think we need to be able to do that cuz >> Right. I agree. But we we weren't getting close. So, if we want to take the time to build it to something that >> Hey, we can make some money permitting
department on on that too. >> Okay. Uh, so we brought the stones. >> She lets them allows them for like a week or a few days. >> I just if you No, permanent fons. >> I do a permanent >> permanent fumes are not allowed, but
>> temporary good. >> They're not allowed at all. >> Well, not at all. But I say if we do the same thing we did for the >> We've never We've never cited someone or gave them an because they had a grand opening again. >> Well, I again I know I appreciate that. That's great. You're cut by code. You
can't do that. Correct. >> So, I want to fix the code. So, you then your practice that you do because here's what happens. Somebody comes in and says, "I want to do it." Well, I can't do it. Well, I've seen them here all these times. I want to do it. So, I want to make the code in line with what we're actually practicing.
>> Fun unless otherwise used for grand opening. >> Well, just put no permanent fons. I mean, they temporary >> f. You're going to have to decline it every time though. If you're going to say not not permanent, okay, well, they're going to be the temporary she just read. Yes, it fall in love with the
tip if it's not permit for the 15 days before whatever that you know. >> Well, you could do get a get like a a fiveday permit for 20 bucks or a 15-day permit for 50 bucks. >> Maybe >> that's what you have to decide if you want to take them away have them for
five days and you permit. That's what >> would you want to do something like that? >> That's what they're doing. >> Whatever council wants to do, we'll we'll do. So is there is there objection to again do we need to do we need to have every sign has its own duration? I definitely not want to do that but you
can do that right be as granular as you want. We already have the temporary sign said the max temporary sign would be out there would be 34 days based on that code. 14-day max event 15 day prior 5 days after. Um and so it's 34 days and
if we just if everything that uh we want to allow just not on a permanent basis falls to the temporary guidelines that can cover and you can also do the permitting as well if you want to do that. >> I personally don't want to see fumes all a lot. >> I think a grand opening only um
all cities everywhere are eliminating those. They are. >> If we if we put it in our code that they're allowable for just about anything as long as you get a permit and it's a short time, you're going to see fonses all over night. >> They've caused accidents. They've come loose and got in traffic and blinded people.
>> I mean, it's very rare, but it does happen. >> Just allow just allow our codes department to let it slide on a grand opening or something, but don't put it on our co. >> You can't technically do that. It's a problem. >> Well, but that's become selective force. They don't like that business. All of a sudden, the guy comes out there and he
says, "Well, you can't have festivities >> for 24. Let them choose how they want." >> If code says code says you don't have it, you don't have it. I think it's a very valid reason to not let them have it. But you can't say, "Oh, no. Go, you
know, you want >> Well, how about 24hour uh permit for grand opening use only or 48 hour permit for grand opening use only?" And that eliminates seeing fes because each individual business can have their 50% off sale, their grand
opening, their you know uh 5year anniversary or whatever and all of a sudden you're seeing festons popping up everywhere. So what what would codes allow it for? How long would they allow it for based on their discretion that they've used so far? build that in
rather than allow it to just be a free-for-all if the students in Port >> Well, they were prohibited before, but we would allow and they still are, but we would allow if it was a grand opening >> for how long would you allow
>> more than 72 hours? >> See, so then build that in for grand opening only for 72 hours and then that eliminates everything else. only grand opening. >> No permit everywhere are getting rid of those because if you cut it to a 50% off sale, you could have
>> 12 fonses, 20 ftoons along 19 at any given time. >> We we never had a big issue with that anyway. Well, >> we would allow them 72 hours because I know on 19 there was something and that's what I said earlier with those
machines going with the air blowing and the uh the distraction to the motorists. There was something about that. >> Yeah. Are they even legal? >> They they've caused I mean got sued over them why they eliminate but I I mean I'd
like to see if someone wants to use it. I mean she lets them use it for three days. That's I don't see a big problem with it except a storm comes. >> I saw I saw one that was really cool and it was kind of an inflatable
but it its arm was doing this. I can't remember what it was but it was really cool. I mean there's they can be neat and they can be obnoxious but again I think you don't want to let them out there all the time but for events like say say the chamber does their their
market you might want a foon out there to >> and so that's different that we could classify that under a special event or you could maybe allow that temporary for that period of time either in a special event
a waterfront activity or a 50% off sale. >> Yeah. No, I I agree. We don't want, you know, >> 50 cents off ice cream cups today. So, what do you do? >> Eliminate sales. >> Eliminate. It has to be an event, not a an event would be >> uh
>> not a discount event. >> And they can only use do this once per year. >> Calendar year too. >> The calendar I mean this the market was monthly. >> Well, they can't do it every month. That's kind of what we're saying, >> but you told me it's only like during
the weekend and it was only actually on Sunday. >> Actually, then you're going to see Norfist. >> You're going to see a bunch of drunken sailors on the side of the road that they've used all along into the code to where they they keep doing things the way they've always done, but don't build in more because
yeah, sure, they might be great at the waterfront on occasion, but we've never attempted to do that for whatever reason. So, why take the opportunity to start doing it now. >> Well, I give example. The reason that they stopped doing the market in the waterfront park is because nobody was
going. So, so now >> but they people do realize waterfront is going I mean you can see that when when you're driving by waterfront park you can see that an activity is going on there whether they pull in or not isn't going to be dependent on the festival. >> You can't actually because the waterfront park is set back off old post
road and they were trying to get they were trying to put some matter of fact I think they they had some flag banners which are also Those pennant things, I think those are also what those are called. Swoopers. >> Those feathers. >> Yeah, those are flags. Those are
>> those signs. Are they >> swoopers that go up like this that that they turn? They got like a little >> round flags. >> But the the issue is is um again fes probably the ways to do allow other ways. I think the point is is there
might be an application for that. Um because like I said, they are they do draw attention because they're moving and they're they can be done. Um but you know, too long is annoying. Yeah. Again, I think there's applications for all these things. Do you want to just to and
I'll go back to the conversation we had about changing the waterfront district for uh to allow rentals of motorcraft watercraft. Uh they came out in droves because now you could potentially rent jet skis and all a sudden we're going to
have jet ski rentals across the thing. You're going to have that anything you open up. Are you really going to have everybody has a festune if especially if you limit it to special events or whatever? I think the answer is no. I guess potentially you could have that but it doesn't make any sense.
>> Well, they are eyecatching though. >> I think and that's that's the point. there is an application where you want that eye catching. Let's let's let's say that we're having a a a city event. Obviously, we can do it. I guess we can do anything we want, but >> um but you know, we're not going to do
those type of things. The chamber may do a special event. We may have a scallop festival in the future or something, >> but then the city could use them if they wanted to. use them anyway because we we aren't restricted to our >> So we're talking we're talking about a private person private person at the
park or something running the park to we can already have them. So it's kind of >> the moot point. Who else needs them at the park entrance for us to be going into this kind of >> I'm not saying anybody needs anything. I just I just if and I'm okay if you want to outwall them all together. I just,
you know, >> well, I'd say just build in what discretion they'll get with Veronica and work with what they've been doing. >> Yes. 72 hours, right? But I mean, maybe a permit. >> Yeah. >> Right.
>> Just clear discretion building. It's going to be >> practice. We codify their practice. >> Right. Whatever their practice was their practice, >> right? Man, I love when the attorney strokes my >> Can we limit? >> She knows how to do it, too. Good.
>> Can we limit to how many fes we have at one time in the city? >> Let's uh let's take a quick quick uh break. Five minutes recess, >> right? >> I think I think we closed the book on sale here.
>> 45 minutes of >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Yeah. Chris. >> Oh, no. Last time I was here last I'm sorry. My started yesterday.
Lisa says she's home. Your chair speaks loud. Sweeter. Oh, Lisa on their conveyor belt on the truck. First time ever, they said. So that's why she later
I like your shirt. There you go. [Music] All that stuff is right after that. based on I don't disagree with
mainly just two guys. Thank you. That was their own depend She wants to know that I hear that. Yeah, there's one.
>> I'll be I'll be around tomorrow afternoon. Yeah, you don't want to do that. this whole code. There's no way they're going to talk about >> I pulled away. reason we're like 15 years.
your whole aesthetic is what you're trying to change, right? Wednesday. Sorry. Yeah, fine. I'm gonna put you on speaker because >> Yeah. Can we agree this is going to take a lot longer than what we have? Okay,
>> let's jump back in. >> Okay, we're gonna zoom. Okay, couple things before we get started back in. Um, we need to see if Wednesday for a special meeting about the Stantech changes about the dredging stuff, the
surveys and all that. Um, what time Ashley were proposing? >> Um, I didn't propose I didn't propose a specific time. So, I guess it just depends on everybody's schedule. >> During the day, >> Wednesday needs to It needs to be Wednesday, no later. >> Yeah. So, >> well,
>> what works for Wednesday? >> I'm going to be in Virginia, but I can I can >> Zoom's fine. We just need to have a sitting core. I'm so >> Lisa, are you going to be here? >> Um, yes. I should be able to be there, I believe, >> on Wednesday. Okay. >> If I don't have a roofing problem, so
but as of as of right now, yes. >> And you could be here Wednesday. >> Yes. should check your calendar. >> We have to have three council people sitting. >> Um, what are our time options? I do have a I do have a meeting. >> What What are your availability?
>> Wednesday. I'm I'm taking 10 through 3:30. 10 through 3:30. >> 3:30. >> Could you be here at 3:30? >> Um, I don't anticipate the meeting would last very long. Maybe an hour at max.
>> Do you need to be here for that? >> I was I would need to be here, but I can I'd have to do Zoom because I can't. >> Okay. >> What if we did? >> I could do bright and early, too. >> Early in the morning, whatever. Crack it on. >> Yeah. Eric, I have a four to five
national. >> Uh, I guess it can't be tomorrow at this point, right? >> It can be tomorrow. >> And and he's we're trying to get him to recalculate now because you made one more change, >> right? Well,
>> tomorrow I would have an issue anyway. >> Tomorrow night. >> Tomorrow. Well, I don't know how long they're going to take. >> Well, tomorrow I was I'd say tomorrow at 6. >> Oh, that's right. I knew there something else. Um,
>> Wednesday early. I should be all right. What? Uh, you said you got something at 10:00. >> Yes. 10 to 3:30. >> Is it you got to be somewhere at 10? >> Close to here. >> Yes. >> I'm not trying to pry. I'm just trying to see how >> Newport.
>> So, you'd have to leave here probably 10 minutes before your >> And they don't have a 24hour window for cancellation left anymore. So, >> do we need to do it earlier than 10 on Wednesday? What you say? 24 hour. It's only >> I need a 24-hour. >> It's only Monday.
>> Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. >> Early Wednesday if you want to or >> really early Wednesday. I'd rather not try to reschedule it. Um but I could come in 8 7 whatever anybody wants to do. >> I can do an eight or nine o'clock
Wednesday. >> Does eight eight or nine o'clock work for nine would probably be okay. And he's just been he's basically going to present the change and talking about just make sure we're all on board with the with the maps and >> will there be coffee?
>> We could we could arrange coffee for sure. Maybe even donuts if uh >> if today bring back the guy from skin, right? I just think we're giving it to >> Oh, I don't know. >> I don't think he's coming back. >> He's not coming back. Just have one minor addition. Yeah. Okay. Well, the
other thing too. Okay. >> Um, so yeah, 9:00 a.m. Is that too early for you? >> Christine's got something that she could cancel. She didn't really want to. That takes her from 10:00 to 3:30. So that's majority of the day. And then as you get later on today, Chris got something for 4 to 5.
>> You said 9ine. >> 9ine? Yeah. >> 9 on Wednesday. >> Does that work for you? >> Yep. I'll be there in my pajamas, though. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. And you zoom. Okay. No. >> In Orlando.
>> Oh, you >> Oh, Wednesday at all. Anytime. >> Oh, yeah. What? Parks, I guess. >> I'm call >> Well, okay. So, just reality, we've already discussed
it. Um the he's coming back. the um preliminary the cost is a little bit less than the the whole cost which I >> 471k >> and it was 490 I think was the other >> yeah so it came down to 471k
>> so it's actually it was basically a wash but it was less uh I did realize that when we you know that dedra circle thing that big long tail with the circle that we took all that out we actually probably need to do the first portion of it because we've got residents over
there that are impacted so it's not just down deep circle where they're blocked by that pipe. It's the other people on the point and stuff. So I I had asked city manager S to talk to Santech to put that back in that one section. Um I pull
up map, but what I'm getting at is is we want to try to schedule where everybody's here, but in reality there's not really it's just basically coming back just to show us that yes, the cost was about the same. want to go forward with
that. >> One thing I wanted to talk to you about, by the way, I thought was a good idea, >> but you have to dredge either all the way up to the still houses because there's no water out there tied at all
really low tide bring over off the point by his house or point right to the channel. That would be close, >> right? And so the goal on that was to if we if we do that again whatever whatever dredging would happen in the future for whatever things that's that's on down
the line. This is just the study to be able to get to that point. If if we go that route we would be looking at probably federal dollars to to create that or state dollars to create that from where we drop off of Brasher on out. And yes, that would definitely be something we would pursue. And the reason we could go after that was we're
creating water access at Brasher Park. we need this in order to complete that. And so I think we need to do our part first before because we don't really control past Brasher Park. >> So that but yes, you're right. And that that was that was definitely we would if
we if we start to go >> fast there you have to either you got to go all the way out or >> Yeah. close to our channel >> and and it would still be usable. You just have to watch the tides. But if we wanted to be usable all the time, we would have to make sure that that but
again even usable during the tides is a huge help water access otherwise >> would pursue additional funding to to make that happen. So, >> yes. >> Yeah. Um, so if you can't be here,
do you feel comfortable not being here given that? >> Well, my pet peeve is I'm okay. We want we that you guys know what we need to do. >> Yeah. I mean, we've already hatched out. It's really just he's coming back with what we said. We're going to make sure that that was what it was. there is that
little addition that I'm having look at the top of the tail so we don't leave those residents along that peninsula out. Um and it and so I'm assuming that would probably put us probably back around that I think still a wash because we're coming in about
>> I'm not sure what the name of it. It's it's uh you know where Bloom lives >> um at the end of Epide Lane. So basically have top tide lane on down there's like a little um bay area there and then it narrows to where it's
blocked off by that um pipe. >> So you extend Grand Boulevard over a little bit too >> uh where >> your place. Yeah, that's that's already in there. >> The only So basically the exact thing we
talked about the only thing that would be different is if we decide to go ahead and do the top of that where we pick up Eptide Lane. We don't uh we don't uh leave those residents on at le um and like I said based on what we found so far I think those numbers are coming in $20,000
less than the the original 490 right >> so that's the case >> on Wednesday Bob and I need to be on the call that all right so the other thing so we're trying to set the meeting up obviously and I think we were all in agreement that we're going to do it nine
o'clock on Wednesday but you guys you couldn't make You could, but it' be virtual, right? >> Virtual. >> Okay. But you can't make it. Are you okay with >> not being part of that knowing that? >> I'm okay with >> Okay. The only thing that would change and we would go ahead and add that
little top of the table. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And I'll be >> and I if something comes up or whatever, >> uh, you'll have your cell phone on, right? >> Absolutely. >> I I can call you if if you need me to wait or anything. >> I can do FaceTime or whatever. >> Okay. All right. So, let's do that.
Let's set it for 9:00 on Wednesday. >> Done. >> Is that good with you, Lisa? >> Yes. >> Okay. I'm going to let >> Don't forget your donuts. >> If I Oh, don't forget donuts coffee. I'll let you know. >> Okay, cool. And um I think is there anything else I need, Lisa, for on that?
Um No, they're good. Thanks, Lisa. >> All right. Just call. >> Okay. Um the other thing is on this meeting, how long do you guys want to go? Obviously, I think we probably um
we go a little longer and we can schedule another one. Um we keep going until it's finished, but we there's a lot of stuff here. I do I do want to say this is this is a great exercise to actually go through something like this and and line by line, especially the
sign code. This is it's it's been around a long time. I think we're with our goal of all, you know, being more business friendly and all that, I think this is going to pay huge dividends. Um, but we need to get it right. So, I I appreciate the time of all this, but it does take some time. Um, so what's what's y'all's preference?
>> Can we have some pizzas? Little Caesar's pizzas and just keep going. I'm just starting here. >> I've got to getify out and we're we're already at four o'clock. So, how long how long you guys come? You want >> cut it off at now? >> I think we cut it off now and we
reschedu another time to do this. I think this is important enough. It's not 911 stuff. It's just we need to clean up time to do it. I think we scheduled to do it. >> Um >> one one thing we could do and I'm okay with that too, but I think if we if we at least finish out this one section
we're on which we're down to um >> page you on there >> the So we're on item number 20 which well 19 fonses 20 banner signs. Um if we just finish out and all this stuff is probably added because of the law so that's really not going to change that.
So, if we can just finish out this section and we'll pick up uh on section 1214 in a separate meeting, but we could stay for a little bit longer to finish this out. You guys good with that? >> When next Monday from today, >> um I'll be here next Tuesday for Wait,
what's next? Next Tuesday. So, I see with Nancy here, we save travel time cuz she's not going to be here too. >> And when's the next time you're going to be here outside of council? >> Oh, outside of council. >> Currently, >> council's next week.
>> Council meeting next Tuesday. Next week, no other day. other meetings on Tuesday besides our >> for the um >> you're not back on the 17th. We have a long time. >> So you're actually going to miss the
the next two council meetings, right? >> Zoom. Next I'll be I'll be here but I'll be remote. >> Okay. So you you if we schedule something you could do remote. >> Yeah. Um, >> so I'm here Tuesday. Again, I can I can come other days, but to try to, you
know, watch the travel this I'm here >> 26th and then I don't come back until >> the fourth. >> The fourth. >> Um, >> come in early Tuesday. >> We could Is there anything else going on Tuesday? Ashley 26. >> No, I was trying to schedule.
Okay, >> we're we're getting to the point we're getting to the point where we have a lot of boards and committees that are starting to meet on a regular basis. We're really going to have to sit down and have a schedule because planning and zoning actually was supposed to be the
first meeting of every month and it's changed a little bit. We were trying to accommodate for the 26, but there's other ones. So, I want to make sure we have space to do these workshops as well. So,
Um, I mean, I'm I'm I'm okay with early on 26 since we got counseling. So, it might be, you know, it'll be a long day for everybody. Um, >> have a break in between. >> Start early. >> We could do that. >> Have a break in between.
>> Um, or we could wait till the fourth and just do it separately, too. And I >> at all. >> I'm teaching all day. >> 26 year. You can do it anytime. I mean, I can't do it any time. I'm just telling you I'm I've got to move a business and
I've got to sell a house. I got to move off. It's pretty heavy. >> Well, so council's at 6 on 26. We don't have anything else currently, right? So, uh, what time y'all think you want to >> Are you saying Tuesday? >> Yeah,
>> we could do any >> I'm here. I can come anytime on Tuesday. >> You want to do one and then >> we possibly maybe recess for >> 1 to 4. So, could we do it earlier and then have a longer break in between >> 10 in the morning and then you guys can go home and do whatever. I can work in my little cubby
>> front or kick Andy out of his office. Whatever works for you guys though. >> Whatever works. Um, yeah. >> I worry that if we come in at 1, we'll be here till the end of the meeting. Um, and we can always cut off and schedule another session, man. There's no rush to
get it done. Say, >> we limit it to a couple hours. >> We want to do it once. >> What's that? >> We just want to do it once. That's the important thing. >> That's my whole point. We don't have to rush through it. >> Yeah. No. And I'd rather not because we we get tired. >> Set a time block.
>> Yeah. Why don't we do one to three? I think it's a three-hour break thing. >> Okay. One to three. >> So, that's >> or or one to four. If you want to do three hours, then give you two hour break. I mean, we're going to be we're three hours now. >> Or come in earlier if you want to whatever fine with me either way.
>> I don't want to go. I don't want to traverse lunch. So, I'd rather do after lunch kind of like we did. >> Okay. >> Um, >> that's fine. >> So, why don't why don't we do one o'clock on Tuesday. >> So, what time? >> Uh, I'll let's let's say to
I say three or four. kind of play it by ear, but let's just do four. That gives us a two-hour break between council. Is that enough? >> And hopefully we maybe get out a little before that. I trying to avoid having too many workshops. So, we try to stretch the
singles a little bit. But I I think if we do another three hours um then if we don't finish up it probably just one more three-hour session or less and we'd be done. So I venture to say.
>> Okay. Uh let me verify Lisa's good with that real quick. >> Do we still have a nine to 10? No, we don't. Not doing that. Right. >> 910. >> That's your fault. You're pulling in for
>> Okay. So, you're good for >> Okay. And it's a workshop, so we don't need a seated quorum for that, do we, Nancy? >> I'll verify >> because there no action. >> Yeah. Um, >> so >> you'll be gone, right? Or you'll be here
for the >> What you talking about? Tuesday 26. >> Yeah, I'll be here. >> Okay, so you can sit here. You'll be here. I'll be here. Okay, we're good. Yeah. So, >> you're good. You just may have to remot, I guess. >> Okay, >> got you. Thanks.
Okay, good. Okay. So, moving on to did we fumes? You were gonna make it >> talk Veronica and kind of >> codify >> codify their practice
>> their practice. Yes. >> Uh 21 sandwich signs that do not meet the requirements of section 121417. Um is that referring backwards or that's forward? >> Kind of. So, we covered that really. I'm not sure why that's there
>> as um uh 21 sorry 1214 that may be a hold on you go to page right above section 121-5 what page it is on here >> 819
>> um new news sub 17 >> uh that's page >> right right above one page right right above section 121-5 Five >> 21-5. That's page 22. >> So go up to >> 17. Yep. In non-residential zoning.
>> 17. Um, it talks about sandwich signs. >> In non-residential zoning districts, one sandwich sign business establishment having certificate of occupy placed on a sidewalk no further than 5T from the main door. Okay. That basically just tells them they only have one and they give them setbacks for it. So basically
no other sandwich signed other than that. I guess >> and planning and zoning added that sentence in um blue. The sign shall be shall only be displayed during the operating hours for the business like being when you close it for the night, pull it in. >> Yeah.
>> Storm's coming. Pull it in. That kind of thing. >> Yeah, makes sense. Everybody go. >> Okay. And what's what was the other? Because in item number three, you have signs other than sandwich signs placed
on the sidewalk or curb. Could you could you actually put um that 121-49 reference and take out 12? >> Not 12. I'm sorry. Uh 21
>> page 18 and 17. >> Number >> number three says is the same. You cannot have any signs other than sandwich signs on the sidewalk or curb. >> Nameless. Everyone is saying you can have a sandwich sign as long as it needs to
require >> well saying you can't have any signs that don't meet the requirements that says we're still in the uh >> right you cannot have the sandwich sign that does not meet the requirements of I mean it is dup duplicative and the fact that that there's there's a another
section specifically saying what the sandwich sign where the sandwich sign should be placed but the section 1213 is saying you can you can have it as long as you follow the requirements, >> right? Why? I mean, I don't understand why why we have number three and number
21 >> because number three is encompassing more than that. It's saying it's not signs. Number three is saying you can't have signs on the sidewalk or curb other than a sandwich sign. So, any other sign that doesn't meet that definition can't have.
>> Okay. So, >> can we put um sandwich signs together? I was say you could put it together. You could make it one thing that um Signs that are prohibited would be signs other than sandwich signs placed on the sidewalk or curb and sandwich signs must meet the requirements.
>> I'm suggesting take out 21 >> together. That's absolutely >> We could take one line out of this long. >> I know. I get paid by this. >> If somebody is looking at the code and they see one section that applies to sandwiches, they won't think to look further. >> Well, exactly. You got to bounce around to see. >> That's why you know we confuse people so
they have to come see >> job security for you. I like that. That's a good idea to put >> Thank you. Okay. And now, so this red stuff here was stuff we have to have in here. >> Well, I Let's It's either stuff that um
is addressing the Supreme Court case or things that Rob has recommends and recommend. >> Okay. What I'll run through any sign nailed, fast, fixed to, hanging from, or painted on any tree or other vegetation part of living or dead. Don't can't do that. I'm good with that. You guys good?
Uh can't have any signs obstructed, seal hide or otherwise obscure from any from view. Any official traffic other government signs to advice? Good. With that you guys as well. Uh offsite off premises commercial signs. Let's >> That would be you put your business sign
on Christine's property. That's that's an offsite sign. You can't do that. >> But what what if she allowed me to do that? >> She's very nice. >> She can't Why is that? I don't think you can do that. signage.
>> Yeah, that's not allowed right now. >> That would be similar to like a billboard or something. >> Billboards right now. >> That's considered a question of what uh Bob was talking about earlier where you
have uh one monument sign >> and you have Whiskey Joe's and you have Hooters and you have all of that >> signage. or prohibiting what Bob has recommended. >> I think it's do it right. It would be
nice to have that, but I understand you don't want uh someone promoting their business in front of Publix either. >> Well, again, you can't do that unless you have permission. >> Your definition is sending it to a
different provision of the code that >> the example is the WOD though. That example was going to be a whole different schematic we're talking for the rest of the >> well potentially going to happen and it's no discussion. >> I understand.
>> I can see have that whole area built out down there and having a beautiful big marquee sign. >> Yeah. Here's all the good stuff down here. >> This is why you want to turn left into here and come down here and spend your money. >> Have a little digital sign promoting what events we have going on that week or whatever. Mhm.
>> Yeah. That's that's their thing. If we we allow digital signs and they're flipping through slides or whatever, they might have Bob's widgets. They might have Christine's nicks or niches or >> easy >> uh Andy's uh Andy's Andy sweets. I like that one.
>> Andy sweets. >> Sweet. >> Carol's Corner. Who's cupcakes? >> Chris's cupcakes. >> Chris's cupcakes. Oh, I like Chris's chocolates better, but that's fine. >> Okay. It's a billboard, off-site sign, or off- premise sign. That's all
included in this. Um, means a sign, structure, advertising, an establishment, merchandise, service, or entertainment which is not sold, produced, manufactured, or furnished at the property on which the sign is located. This is regulated by section 12113 of the land development code, which you have as part of this code. um
which looks to mostly just it's addressing billboards, but it's talking about where what you can do with them. >> Yeah. And I I think the reason is is you don't want to confuse people. I think that the oh here's Kohl's, where's it at? Right. That I guess that's to make sure you direct traffic to the place you
want to direct, not cause an issue. Um gosh, I would how do you uh I guess it it's really in your definition of what's off site, right? It may not necessarily be off your property. That might be within your
your uh >> well that is offsite, but yeah. >> Right. Like >> it's offsite because it's not on your property. It may be within your >> your a zone. >> How does the naughty advertise on 19? [Music]
>> So, how can maybe look at language for >> fix? So, down side street. So basically be like if we put something on grand to kind of advertise the business down that grand corridor um like uh a
community sign there at the entrance or whatever in a future where they you say naughty ore dirty mullet um >> a sign not controlled by the city. >> I don't think it matters whether it is or isn't. It's just it's right now is
you can't have it. you'd have to actually turn down there and pass that. So, >> it's almost like you want to allow them if it's if it's within close proximity to where it doesn't
doesn't cause confusion. It actually if the corner if I own the business on the corner, >> I don't want my problem being blocked up with signs for people that are two blocks away. But you wouldn't you you wouldn't have that unless you let we're talking about
if let's say I own the property on the corner. >> Yeah. >> And I want to put up a a sign that the businesses down grand could use to direct down there and it's it's a whether I rent the sign space to them or or it's
>> is this more of a wayfinder thing. >> But then you say restaurants with an arrow point down there. is a wayfinding thing we're getting ready to go through right now. >> Well, wayfinders are more for the side streets. >> Well, yeah. People are coming to look for a specific restaurant though, then they would
>> Yeah, you start loading up your main 19 with all the side street hustles. I don't know if that's really right. >> You're allowing poll signs for every business, you're going to >> If you're allowing poll signs for every business, >> not on 19, you're not you're not putting all your sign on 19. this if you
depending on how you word this is to let them do that permission to put it up somewhere >> right >> right now they could but if you change >> I think I think it's written correctly and I think we leave it like it is my attention >> what's your thoughts
>> I think people should be able to market their business as long as it's okay with the other business people and it's in a I mean >> how about this >> should be in a nice neat neat professional manner like I said you can have one banner on one side road, you have another banner on the other side of
the road like on on on the bridge and one up by between Ridge Road and and the Bayou district and very nice professional signs with business and you don't even have to put all the business on. You can just say district, you know,
next three rights or next right main street Port Richie like Newport Richie has a huge sign up. >> Yeah, there's a historic downtown is very general. >> Historic down Yeah. So you can that's a wayfinder thing. >> Draw people down there and then they find what's down there. >> That's a wayfinder thing. That's not
like here's naughty and here's the crab shack and blah blah blah. You're not sticking all their names out on the street there. >> All right. Now I will I will say that >> I like that idea. I think that's good to have people sitting out there
give us ideas too. But I am a business person and and so think about think about your your car lot, right? It's on 19. So you don't have the problem for a reason. >> Well, I get I get that. But let's say that you had that down Grand Boulevard
right there past the corner that you don't have 19 exposure, >> but you're sitting up and it's not just you, but it's a a couple things. And like I said, people driving 19, you know, they don't know anything's down that way. And if there was a
if there was a ability to it and really I don't even like what Bob says here. >> Yeah, I'm not trying to be difficult because he I I can appreciate Bob's point of view, but putting other people's names out on the 19th Street for businesses that are off the beaten path is not what we're supposed to be
doing right now. What we're supposed to be doing is creating sign code that says here is what we're going to do, not creating opportunity for people to put signs out. We're trying to clean up 19 and doing this is adding to that stuff. Well, if you had a nice marquee sign in front of your car lot
and you had, like I said, the Cody River Landing next three exits and it's beautiful lit up palm trees and back blue black lit sign and then you have all these businesses listed under it and you charging them $100 a month for that. >> I wouldn't want any part of that.
>> You wouldn't want any part of that. >> No, I wouldn't want any part of that. >> You got you got a billboard on your property now. >> It's going to come down. It's event coming down. Yeah, we've already inquired into that. They're they're going to be trading off, and I'll just share this with you. They're going to be trading off their stationary billboards
to the state of Florida for one activated billboard. So, they're going to like do away with 10 to get one activated one. So, where where you see these flashing electronic LED billboards, you know, the state of Florida is going to say, "Hey, if you take 10 down, which put one of those up?" So, I think ours want to take them
down. What about something like this? Not withstanding the other provisions regarding off- premises signs, multi-tenant commercial or mixeduse developments or hidden businesses, we'd have to we'd
have to clean this up. May utilize off- premises directional signs for the purpose of guiding the public to the development and the businesses located within it. manipulated directional information located to proximity to the development subject to design review and
approval and may identify multiple tenants. So it could apply to these multiuse tenant commercial mixeduse developments or oneoffs like um Crab Shack or Naughty or
places like that where they're they're hidden locations. So, how about who do the Apple sisters? What's the name of their place? >> App six. >> Apple 6. Perfect example. There's a warehouse in development. There's probably seven businesses in there. Eight businesses. You got sign out
fronts, marquee signs, got seven or eight businesses in. But you're not going to take their sign and put it out on 19. >> That's not trafficed business. That's those are basically services. So people call up on the phone like they're plumbers, electricians, it's
it's different specific type services. But when you have business in like an ice cream shop or sandwich shops and things like that, they're more traffic warranted. I >> mean, people today are going right here. Ice cream shops near agree.
They're not dependent on on that kind. The kids are not going to be looking for signs. >> Well, I do know that people are on my street all the time looking for um crab shack. >> For sure. >> That happens a lot. >> Great business model. You start selling crabs from
sandwiches on Tuesday. I can see $100 a month sign. >> People are lost trying to find crab shack. So, there are places that are um kind of exceptions. >> Well, if they like said, if they'll put a p a pole sign up now in the property or whatever that >> roof sign,
they see it going over the bridge. That's not the problem. >> Do they know to turn a hard right and another right? No. They go down. They don't know which right to make once they get over the bridge to go there. They don't think it's right >> the first right. They can't go in here and I can type crab shack in here and it
would take me right there. >> It'll take you to my house. >> Yeah. >> Well, get some crab sandwiches. >> Google. Google. I don't trust Google for crap. I would have got lost several times using Google. But it's it's you gota if they could have a sign on River Road,
a Wayfair sign. Maybe that's something or Wayfinder, I'm sorry, but they could have a wayfinder sign, something like that. >> Maybe that's an idea. Maybe as we look at this wayfinder project, you know, we have if you have something going down grand where there's a whole bunch of stuff happening, you put it on there,
you know, food this way. It's like getting off the the highway, you know, gas is supposed to help with that a lot. >> You got shownies, whatever it may be. >> It just isn't going it's not good for traffic on 19, but the side roads. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Do any cities that you know of have
signed real estate that they help with that? And like >> I was actually trying to picture like I can picture being in cities where you have like you can tell it's their their their signs, you know, the zombie and the way and if they're >> and I feel like there are ones that do have specific, you know, restaurants or
directions to certain places. So my just based on that, I'm thinking yes, that there must be something like that, but I personally haven't had to deal with that, but I can find out. >> So that might be because that way you're keeping that consistent look. >> Right. >> Right. The idea being, you know, at the
certain corner with the the new the city's wayfinder stuff, it may say um what was when you mentioned um crowd shot, >> waterfront restaurants, you know, riverfront restaurants. You're right. But it's but it's part of the city and the same look versus different signs by
different people on premises sign. It's going to it's going to clutter. It's going to not be consistent look. It's not what you want. >> I think we control it. >> Yeah. I think that's what you're you're >> I was in Myrtle Beach and we went over to Myrtle Beach for for about a week and we looked at different restaurants and
and this uh oh big wheel goes around all >> and had on there boardwalk >> had address boardwalk address boardwalk. Yeah, >> we got to find a boardwalk. Let's go down there. >> Three lights is boardwalk. Next lights boardwalk then boardwalk this way. >> So those are wayind signs. Those are
wayinds. Well, they were actually regular street signs and there was a wayfinder, but there was also a little marquee that had boardwalk in some park, the city park. Turn left. And >> I think I think what you're >> you knew where boardwalk was driving down the road. Well, I guess I guess if
we if we say we had a marquee and we built it as we developed and we had some of these corridors with stuff like that that we want to kind of move people around with be the wayfinding project that we could possibly have space on that that we could actually list some of the major restaurant that would be something that we advertise revenue
could come in as well. we could lease those spaces out and then we could >> always do, you know, waterfront shops, restaurants, that kind of stuff and pointed that way versus putting names on there and having to >> Yeah. But I'm saying we we could if we wanted to if we had depending on >> kind of like the highway at least you
sign space on the highway this you want your restaurant listed here, you got to pay for it. >> Yeah. Have a general restaurant down this way and you know catches wants to actually have their name there or let's use Crab Shack because that's a great example because they're kind of hidden back there. they could actually pay to
have that their name >> because like when you pull off the interstate it shows like the gas stations and all that on those signs >> but then show everything there >> but obviously there's probably some kind of arrangement with the government that they get their McDonald's on that sign. So something similar to that >> you always know where Bies is. That's
for sure. >> That's right. >> But then you got >> Bies they take up the whole place. >> You got McDonald's breakfast sandwich. Oh, there's McDonald's here. It's all you know. So I I think leaving us in here is okay because if we decide to do something like that, that'd
be a government sign. It would be exam. So we can that's um any sign in or over this is the other thing I was thinking I saw any sign in or over the public rightway other than government signs or warning safe signs. So this goes back to that one thing
where it said couldn't overhang 18 in the >> sidewalk or whatever, but that's in the public rideway. So, I don't know why >> it'll be far enough off the road. >> Newport Richie signs over a government road, >> right? That's a government sign. >> Exactly. >> Other than government sign, but it's saying you can't have a sign in or over
the public rideway, but above that it said you could you could have it overhang like 18 inches. >> Yeah. Project. >> Some of these signs were were put in place before the road sidewalk and and you know it overlaps the
sidewalk maybe. So, what I was saying when I highlighted D above, it said projects in excess of 18 inches over a dedicated public street, alley, sidewalk, or private or public roadway. It seems like right down here it negates that because you can't have it over a public
rideway. Does that make sense? >> I see what you're saying. >> So, when you look at D, which I highlighted, look at 20. >> Yeah, I'm look at them when I'm not as tired. >> 25. Yeah, we're all starting to see sideways right about now. >> We're almost done here. Uh 26. Pavement
markings have said official traffic control marks and street addresses applied by government agencies are pursuant to government laws and regulations. The only thing on here I'm assuming there's several people that went around they had their their their address numbers out in front of on their road firm curb numbering. That's okay.
>> I'm assuming it says accept official and street addresses. But it says applied by government agencies for pursuit of government laws relations. So I don't know what government laws regulations. >> I think there's regulations about size and how big the numbers. >> Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Perfect.
>> So I think that's probably okay. Uh any sign number 27. Any sign which is designed to approximate, mimic or emulate official government sign including official stop signs posted on or above any street right away. Okay. Good. Signs that emit sound, vapor, smoke, water particles. I think that's
good. Unless it's with ADA. The number 29 I thought was just cutting in. I'm tired now, too. I thought it was interesting the first time I read it because apparently that was an issue somewhere. >> Yeah, somebody was actually putting real food out on the side. >> So, talks about birds. >> So, anyway, so I think >> trying to contain food or substance that
attract large numbers of birds or I read that I'm like really? >> I would love to have the backstory unless they were just preparing for some kind. >> I mean, unless you're hunting, you're putting food out there to >> get that got to get the right. Uh 30 signs that are not effectively shielded as beams of raised light from being directed a portion. I think all that's
okay. I don't want any distractions. Um 31 commercial mascots. Okay. This this is one that I want to talk about. So this you got the guy out there that's doing the firehouse subs >> or the guy leggings on that >> does his thing down here in the Hudson.
You know what I'm talking >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we're outlawing that, I guess. And that's something new. >> New language. >> Yeah. Because we we allow it now. >> I mean, during tax season, you don't want to have the person dressed in the Statue of Liberty stand up there saying,
"Come do your taxes." >> You say you don't or >> I mean, what's wrong with that? >> There's a guy. >> There's a guy around for it and I'd hate to eliminate him. >> The dude stands there. He's like he's got his legs all spread like this and he's
>> crazy. >> Definitely before. >> So we're going to we >> and that dude's famous worldwide, man. We're trying to cut him out. >> It's recommended language. It's it's like the guy on the side of the road. I personally >> Well, here's the thing. It it it allows I mean you get all these demonstrators
out there. That's all fine and dandy, but a business can't have I mean, I think if you're paying somebody to wave a sign out there, >> you got to be able to do it. I'm gonna get that guy to come down and do $500 down payments. Flipping sign to put a t-shirt on says eat at Joe's
and just stand out there. You can't stop that, >> right? >> Or you have on his car park there. You eat at Jo. But you But if he's out there actually waving a sign, actually that's depends on where he's parked. >> I think some communities don't. It's the It's the distraction, right? So, some communities don't like some don't like
the look of it obviously, but some don't like the the idea. >> Jet ski rental. Yeah. Jet ski rental. >> You like it, leave it or this >> catches 12 oysters for 12 bucks, whatever. You know, something like that. >> It doesn't bother me people to
>> Yeah, it doesn't. >> And we're creating jobs. >> So, not only we reducing regulation, we're creating jobs. >> We're encouraging people to get to work. U >> I think his name is John. You're welcome to come to Port Rich. >> That's right. >> Um >> tell John he come down here now. Yeah.
>> Uh number 32. Any sign located on real property without the permission goes without saying. Right. >> Um 33. Obscene signs that meet the definition of senior floor statutes. Obviously good. And then projected light signs. Now that's what exactly does that >> Yeah. What is that?
because all the lines are lighted. >> It's shining light like like kind of like a beacon, but it's >> got like lights to shine out. Not light up, but shine out like a headlight there
could be pretty broad, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I was looking. He did not define it. There's a couple of definitions in the back of this. Um, here it is. Projecting sign is any sign which is attached to or which projects from the outside wall of any building or
structure excluding wall signs. >> Boy, that was nothing. >> Projecting sign means any sign. Well, that's projecting sign. It's not projected light sign. >> Well, that's all we have. So, >> well, if you think about a projector, how it projects light out. So the sign projected light out like a projector
does. >> Oh go on the side of a building projecting from something to like the Christmas lights. >> Exactly. >> So yeah >> projects from an outside wall with a
light projecting out >> as long as we're not talking about any type >> because that that's that's projecting light out to us. >> No no no no no. We're talking about turn the lights off, getting over here with one of those things and projected out there. >> Yeah. >> Right. Make it to digital next time.
>> Projected light sign. >> So if it projected um >> can we clarify that? Can you put other >> now that you said it? And and let me and let me ask because down in at the uh in
Newport Richie at the social now they don't know they do signs per se but they always they they project >> the game >> the games and stuff on that building out there with a projector. It's not a sign I guess sign of the advertising. Well I
think that that's going on to a building. I think this idea is coming something coming off. >> Nope. I think you should take it off unless it's a live stream. I didn't get it off too. >> Take it out. >> Take it out. >> And then finally, notwithstanding any
coision of the contrary, neither the city council nor any board may grant a variance allowing the erection of any of the prohibited signs expressly numerous section. And that is why it's important that we don't just have practice doing something that's actually against it
because code can't do that. So anyway, I think that's a great stopping point. >> The reason for that is variance is for hardships. Right. Right. you don't allow it's not a hardship that you want it. >> That's you know that's the idea. >> All right. So if we make a note Ashley that we're going to pick up the next
sign at section 1214 on page 19. >> Okay. >> What's that? >> Okay. And so I'm going to recommend that uh so that's we'll close out of number one for now. >> Um question for you though. Um, are we
for the next stop? >> Should we just keep the sign code or do you want me to include waterfront? >> I'm going to keep roll. I was going to ask for uh that we table the item number two until then just roll it the next meeting. >> Put it into the workshop for the 26th. That's what I was asking.
>> Yes, we may or may not get to it. Okay. But go ahead and leave it in there. >> That's fine. Going together. >> Yeah, just keep this keep rolling till we're finish these two two things. All right. So, is everybody good with that? And then um is real quick comments from the mayor city council. I'll start with vice mayor mayor you have any comments?
Council uh council settle councilwoman s have nothing as well. If that's case I'll open up for a motion for adjournment. >> Make a motion we adjourn. >> Second a motion second. All in favor sign say I. I