All right, Haley. So, are we recording? Oh, okay. Doesn't it doesn't say it on the wall. as you know the size of today. I went through the second
testing. It's recording. Okay, good. All right. Whoops. There we go. Uh, welcome to the Historic Preservation Commission meeting um for August 18th,
2025, 5:00 pm in the main meeting room. Uh pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act, adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting was given by posting prominently on the official bulletin board in the municipal complex 400 Witherspoon Street a
schedule of the regular meetings of the Princeton Historic Preservation Commission for the year 2025. which posting is to be maintained throughout the year and by transmitting a copy of such schedule to the Princeton packet, Town topics, Trenton Times, and
Comcast cable of New Jersey and by filing a copy thereof with the clerk of Princeton, New Jersey. Um, Elizabeth, do you want to do the roll call? Yes. Miss Satderfield. Mr. Shatskin here. Miss Howard here.
Mr. Shore. Mr. Endersby here. here. Miss Freriedman, Maria Covena, Emily Croll here, chairperson Capazolei here.
Um, thank you. I'd like to um just announce again that we have uh two new alternates for the Historic Preservation Commission. um Emily Kroll and Maria Heavikova
and Maria was here last month and so Emily can do her introduction this month. So Emily, if you just like to say a few words. Uh well, it's it's a pleasure to be here first off. Um I have lived in Princeton for 37 years. I moved here in 1988 to be
director of the historical society of Princeton. Uh, and I was there for until 1993. I was also director of Morvin from 1997 to 2001. And I was on the HPRC, the historic preservation review
committee of the burrow from the late 90s to the early 2000s. Um, so, um, I I've been here a long time and I I love the the town and I'm happy to be here tonight. Well, we're so happy that
you're here. Thank you. And um also welcome back Edmeir. We haven't seen Well, we saw Ed recently, but anyway, it's good to have you. Um let's see. Are there other announcements?
Nope. No. If not, let's just do the minutes. We have uh August 12th, 2024. Um, I had a couple changes I gave to Ian. I think Roger had a couple changes.
Um, but just minor, really minor, not substantial. Uh, are there any other changes or comments? Roger, do you want to talk about what you changed? No, it's mostly typographical stuff and
a a few grammatical things. Okay. That bother me. But the legal arguments on the July 21st uh minutes, I don't know how we could make them clearer, but they're
um a little convoluted. So, let's just vote on the 24th first. Um, so are there any other changes, comments to the August 12th, 2024 special meeting minutes?
Um, if not, would someone like to make a motion to approve them with the changes? Was I there? I'll I'll move to approve if I I Yeah, you were there. Second. Okay. Thanks, Alrich. Um, all in favor, please say I.
I. I. Um, for the second one, uh, July 21st, 2025, if I wasn't there for part of the meeting, can I vote on the minutes or no?
Probably not, right? No. So, yeah. Um, let me finish what I was going to say. I mean, ultimately, the confusion in the in the the legal back and forth doesn't matter. It doesn't affect the outcome of the votes. So I I I wouldn't put too much
stock in it. I'm just saying in two years if somebody goes there and tries to figure out what happened in detail, it may be difficult, but it did it didn't I would move it ahead anyway. Okay. Well, um Ian, do you want to do you have the minutes in front of you for
20 the July meeting? So who who would who could vote? President was David Shore, Julie Capazolei, I guess for a limited time, Elrich, Charlotte, Shirley, and Maria. So, we might have to table that because
I don't think we have enough people to vote. Okay. So, no worries. We have another month for those. Okay. All right. Now, we have the resolution for 600 Mercer Road. Um,
and again, I can't vote on that one. So, um, Madame Chair, yes, the, uh, applicant's attorney just wanted to make one adjustment. I'm just trying to find where it is here. It was very minor. He asked that on page
two under at the bottom of page number eight where it says the property is adjacent to Stonebrook Meeting House and Princeton Friends. He'd like to add school campus. That's the only minor change he had. Okay.
Um is there a motion to approve the resolution? Okay. So if we don't have a quorum, I mean we have and okay and I didn't participate.
Emily can't vote. So we don't have anyone to approve the resolution. Just Elrich. That's it. Just El approve it. Okay. Eric approves it. Come on, gang.
I mean Ed, we need more. Well, technically, no. I mean, as long as you were here. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. We just like to land you as well. As long as you get one, you can do it. Okay. Okay. So, El, do you want to
Eric, do you move to approve those that resolution? Yes. I move. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. We actually had resolution. We are asking that the uh condition that we try to reduce the
height of property be eliminated through the resolution. It's controlled by NJB regulatory area standards. We can't actually limit the height. Um and we're just trying to get a more a cleaner resolution in terms of conditions so
that when we're applying to the outside agencies, there aren't so many whatifs. It makes it easier to get funding and everything like that. Um, I do have a copy and I believe Chris also emailed it to you right before I left. He did and in fact I saw the architect Max Hayden
in the hall and he said that he did recall that being said and he did ask the architect they can't reduce it but I think because the way that the resolution is written it's just they should look at it they should consider it and if they can't do it then that's
fine and um Kevin Gravel our engineer did consider it he looked at it um it's the height is set by the NJ regulatory standards So, we can't actually change the paint has to say what it's at. We're just
since we've addressed the condition, we're asking that the condition be removed from the resolution. Is there a problem with it being in there? Because that's really what the meeting was discussed that that the applicant would look at reducing it and obviously you did and if it can't be
then that's just the way it is. But I'm not sure that it makes does it make that big a difference? It can just because if we go to an outside approval agency and they see more conditions that we have to meet with the township or the mun municipality, my apologies, they're
going to have more hesitations about proceeding with the project until we can verify that they were all met. Um, and you know, we have met this one. it would be easier for us for it to just not be in the resolution and it would be
valuable to show that we had a position. I mean, I guess it's up to Elrich because he's the only one voting. I sense that probably the the larger body ought to be involved in this. Maybe Ed has some feedback. M
Madam Chair, I we we don't we don't redo resolutions the night of the meeting. If you had some comments or changes, we should have gotten them before. My recommendation is you table this resolution. You take it up next month. We have plenty of time to take a look at whatever you want to do and then we'll
come back. Okay. Okay. Well, I think that would be good because then more people would be here to vote as well. So, Oh, thank you. Thank you for your comments. Just a normal motion to table the motion to table the resolution until the
September meeting. All right. So, Elrich, do you vote to table the resolution because you're the only one who who can vote. All right. Thank you. What's the date? Oh, September third Monday of the month. Um, sorry.
It's the 15th. September 15th. September. This will be tabled till September 15th. This resolution. Okay. Thank you. All right. We have the resolution for 8688 Lee Avenue, the new fence and gate.
No, we don't have that. We did. We didn't receive that. So, we'll have that. Right. Okay. So, we don't have that. All right. Well, that makes it easy. All right. Now we are moving on to our application with Crown Castle Fiber LLC um Palmer Square uh Central Historic
District uh NJ NRHP Princeton Historic District block 20.02 02 lot 71 zone CB and um I believe uh so Elizabeth you have a um a report and then I will after
that ask the applicant to present. Okay. Yes. So, Madame Chair, I was wondering if you would allow me to kind of summarize the three applications, but then have the HPZ re um vote on it
separately because Crown Castle has come before Princeton with multiple sites, but these are the only three that are new installations. I believe that they've come in, you know, since like um 2024 with 86. Obviously not all of them
are in in fact most of them are not in the historic districts. Uh the ones that we reviewed administratively by administrative waiver were the ones where they were actually um facilities already existing but they were upgrading or making alterations. So these three are new and I would like to take it out
of sequence if you don't mind just because I think that it's going to um be a little bit more clear for the commission. Absolutely. So, I'd like to start with 122 Nassau Street, which is across the street from that location, which is the Shidy Caldwell House. And um Crown
Castle references a PRC-048 ML and that's in the central historic district. And this is actually a section 106 review. The municipality, the engineering department did not review this because this is a state highway and
it's within their right of way. So, so the applicant has submitted a preservation plan review for new small cell new installation and route 27 route uh excuse me state street route right
ofway. The site is located in front of the shade Caldwell House on Princeton University campus across the street from 122 Nassau Street which is the labrenth book store. The applicant originally proposed the site in front of Fitz Randolph Gate, then moved the site east
to the bus shelter and finally settled at its location um that you are looking at today. The shy Caldwell House is situated between the Joseph Henry House and Firestone Library. The installation site falls within the municipal central
that's a correction central historic district and the New Jersey now register historic places historic district and the Kings Highway historic district. Route 27 right away is owned by the state of New Jersey. Uh Crown Council has come before the commission for many applications in the
past and I'm sure many of the commission members who have been here for 2530 years have seen many of these. uh the past in July 2018 for eight sites in the public rightway and at that time at as Crown Castle NG East LLC. They were
represented by John Shives and before that it was Peter Broy. HPC has a strong relationship with the representatives of Crown Castle and does not anticipate this change with the current representatives or their team. Uh, the applicant's application required replacing an existing street light pole
with a taller and larger diameter pole to accommodate mounting an antenna on the top of the pole and installing a a equipment cabinet on the ground. To maintain as much consistency of the street fixture appearance, the existing arm extension, the decorative brack and
the vintage green cobra head will be reinstalled and the arm extension mounted at the same height as currently exists. An LE LED lamp bulb will replace a traditional bulb and an existing traffic signal on the pole will be
installed on the replacement pole. The ground equipment cabinet will be mounted on top of a concrete pad with the cabinet doors opening away from the curb. The cabinet will be placed approximately 6 ft west of the light pole and 3'6 in from the curb and stand
about 4'6 in is a correction. um which you can see on drawings S1 and S2. It'll house the PSNG meter, main breaker, and disconnect switch and load center. An antenna will be mounted on
the top of a new 28T 2 in high pole. And a note is added on drawing S2 saying that all equipment related to the new small cell node installation will be painted black with a matte finish which is consistent with HPC's request on
their past applications. Um they'll also have two handholes which will be installed near the cabinet and both will be flushed to the ground. And if you can see there's a summary of the existing proposed conditions. I do want to make a correction. Um, under equipment, ground equipment cabinet dimensions, actually
it's 4'6 in high and it's 41 in x 24.16 in. So, under the comments where I asked for those dimensions, it was provided on the plan. Um, the applicant is asked to the size of the concrete pad for the equipment cabinet and is recommend the
pad be kept to the minimum dimension necessary. So, um that's just the the shady house site which is on Nassau Street uh
which is a section 106. Um the second one that we're going to look at is 120 John Street and that's uh fronts the back of the Dortha house and the location is actually on the Paul Robson facing part of the property and as
everyone knows this is within the Jackson Historic District and again the applicant um is refer referencing this site at 120 John Street which is a corner property with frontage along John Street and Paul Robson Place and it sits in the Witherspoon Jackson historic
district 120 John Street the address for Dortha's house which was established in 1913 as a cultural center for Princeton's Italian immigrants the building architecture reflects a rural Italian expression with a raised ground
stone foundation stucco interior walls brick trim fenistrations and arches the property is classified as key contributing to the Witherspoon Jackson historic district so this site It actually began on John
Street in fronting the Dortha House. Um and it was moved several times to Paul Ropes in different locations. One in the island um one going towards the Y um and it landed eventually in the island um which is
adjacent to the Dortha's house driveway. the cell installations proposed at the existing traffic signal pole. And the applicant wishes to replace existing traffic pole with a taller and larger diameter pole to accommodate an antenna on the top of the new pole in a stall
ground equipment cabinet. Uh the cabinet will sit about 5' 5 in off the ground and will be centered in the triangular lawn area. Uh the cabinet will house a PSC andG meter, circuit breaker, and load center and antenna
antenna will be mounted on a new 20t 2 in high pole. And again, um let's see. Uh note five also talks about the consistency of the black finish on
the um the equipment and associated uh equipment to the cabinet and the um antenna. The the the existing traffic pole is equipped with a pedestrian signal, a polemounted traffic light in addition to the traffic signal mast arm
with suspended two-sided traffic lights. These are proposed to be removed and installed on a new pole approximately the same mounting height. The signal mass arm will be replaced with a new arm about 1T7 in longer. And again, this will have two hand holes will be
installed near the cabinet which both again will be flush to the ground. And again, there's a summary of the dimensions uh you know the existing and proposed changes to what's what um how the site will be impacted uh with this
site. Um the applicant has agreed to do some landscape screening um because of the height of the cabinet and the pedestrian flow and because there is room to be able to provide that. So they'll be providing a planting plan
which you can see on drawing S9 they'll be um installing Ink Berry Holly and St. John'sworth around the cabinet to assist in buffering its presence. Um there's couple questions for the applicant asked about the size of the
concrete pad which the equipment cabinet was going to sit on and again it's recommended that this be pad be kept minimal. Um I asked about the the width of the cabinet. I'm just assuming probably it's similar to what is proposed for the for
the one that we saw on Nassau Street, but just for the applicant to confirm and is recommended that the existing silver traffic pole be replaced with a new traffic pole with a black matte finish, which is consistent with Princeton's recent traffic pole replacements. Um, and just for
clarification, the plans do indicate there are two different lengths of existing replacement traffic signal mass arms. So, we're just looking for um consistency of this information on both those drawings. So, the last site is
Palmer Square South. This is in the central historic district and this is alongside the post office or former post office or more recently Triumph Brewery
PRC-07047. Um, yeah. So, uh, as mentioned, this is, um, this installation is the rightway Palmer Square South along the side of Triumph Brewery, formerly the post office. And immediate to the left and behind this area is a lawn in front of Nassau
Street. This lawn serves as a square with the public gathering for informal leisure or planned events such as annual music festivals and Christmas tree lighting. The square is the nucleus of Palmer Square, affording easy navigation around many high-end shops, dining,
lodging, and convenient access to various parking options. The installation falls within the Municipal Again Correction, the Central Historic District, and the New Jersey Nassen Register of Historic Places, Princeton Historic District. The applicant proposed to replace an existing
single-mounted town and country style lamp with double-mounted fixtures on a new taller and larger diameter pole to accommodate mounting an antenna on the top of that pole and install a new ground equipment cabinet. The base of the new pole will be larger with a
different style. existing plant plantings. Uh the planter that's attached to the pole, which is at 8 in above the ground, are proposed to be removed and replaced at the same height on the new pole. The proposed equipment cabinet will stand 5'5 in high
and will be mounted on top of a concrete pad. Uh the cabinet doors will open into the sidewalk away from the curb. The cabinet will be positioned 32 feet from the corner of the former post office and 6'4 inches from the cabinet's concrete pad to the inside curb.
Um, it will support PSNG meter, main breaker, disconnect switch, and load center. An antenna will be mounted on the top of a new 20 foot 2in high pole. And the note on the drawing on S2 um again
is consistent with what HPC requests that the that the uh the the material and any installation um apparatus be painted black with the matte finish which is consistent again with HPC's request. The two hand poles will be installed and again they should be flush
to the ground. Um and again on the summary is the um the existing proposed and just so you know the ground equipment dimensions is should be 5'5 in not foot 3t 10 in and
the dimensions were on the drones 44 in x 24.16 in in the width. Um let me see. So, there's a few questions on this um and probably related to other ones as
well, but the drawing indicates that much of the equipment such as the meter disconnect are mounted on the outside of the cabinet. I'm just wondering um why these are not located inside the cabinet. Um the height of the new pole is 3T 10 in. However, the height for the
existing pole was not provided. So, we would like that information provided in the drawings. Um the existing existing elevation side view drawing advises the existing luminere will be removed and replaced. The proposed elevation side view drawing states that two luminers
will be attached to replacement pole. Um and I guess to match it we're wondering uh are you going to be able to match something that is actually um going to be consistent
with what's out there right now? Um, now that the the actually the two hand holes and equipment cabinets uh are going to have a 3-in lip on the concrete and um we're concerned about this about a tripping hazard because I believe this
is in the sidewalk, but Palmer Square is asked to clarify on their drawings where actually the limit of the municipal rightway is and where the sidewalk limits are because that was difficult to see see.
Um the other thing is that you know any type of of excavation for new conduit trenches should be coordinated with the municipal engineer and any sidewalk placement to match what's existing in material color and style.
Um the applicant was advised early on their submission that during the pandemic Verizon met with municipal staff to discuss over 50 sites for new installation. At that time they were told that Palmer Square
preferred for any equipment to be on their buildings and they were going to make as many buildings available for that. This this continues to be Palmer Square's management uh position. They have asked for
crown to investigate placing these on some of their buildings. They had offered one Palmer Square and I believe that they also talked about um other buildings within the vicinity. They feel that they they could address their
needs. But we asked the applicant to discuss why um any of those sites on the buildings would not work for them. And uh just you know Palmer Square is unique in its character and layout for HBC just to recall. They have their own branding
such as signage and the street lighting is part of theirs. And they also have um the streetscape any alterations for light pole and fixture which is right now a single mounted um to a doublemounted um with a large equipment cabinet in the
pedestrian walkway. walkway will neg ne negatively impact the uniformity and aesthetic character of Palmer Square because as you're going from Nassau Street down to Palmer Square, that's the first thing you're going to see. Um and
so the we are asked that the applicant consider looking at alternatives. Um, we know with former representatives Crown Castle, uh, they were very sympathetic with working in historic districts in different states, uh, where they had found alternate options where they were
able to mount it on buildings just the antenna and hide the equipment elsewhere. So, we would like the applicant to consider these options that we know have been available for other sites. Okay, thank you for that summary. Um, so
yeah, let's just refer to um, so there's there's Palmer Square, there's John Street, and there's Nassau Street just so we can keep it all straight. So I'm going to turn over to the applicant, and you can um, review these in any order that you want to, but it it does help if
we kind of group them instead of breaking it off at each one. So um, welcome and thank you for coming today. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Madam Chair. and members of the commission. Oh, could you hold us up again, Leon? Did you have a comment? Yeah, Madam
Chair, we we have a a a new person here tonight that that is joining us for the first time and and quite frankly, even for my own edification, if we could just take five minutes to go back to sort of from the beginning to to look at why
we're here and uh you know, to give her the benefit and also myself the benefit of you know, what's going on here tonight so that we can take a really deep look because to be honest, my feeling is that Palmer Square is is an important part of Princeton and and I I
just want to have a a clean discussion about what we're here for and what we're trying to do for the municipality of Princeton and not necessarily uh focusing on Palmer Square itself, but taking a broader discussion and a broader approach. Yes. Um did you want to have a
discussion of what these uh what this equipment is, what it's for, and what it what it does to serve the community? Yeah. the the broad discussion about Verizon Wireless, uh the problem that we are here having here in Princeton with
regard to reception, the big picture, you know, why Crown Castle is here to present because I think uh that that's part of the part and parcel of what what what we're really taking a look at tonight is that infrastructure-wise, we don't have good reception here in
Princeton. So, I think this is a historical discussion and a a communications discussion all at the same time. Okay. Thank you. Um, I'll turn it over to the applicant. Thank you. And and we agree with that. Uh, again, Robert Gdioso with the law
firm of Snyder and Snyder. On behalf of the applicant, Crown Castle, and I have with me Miss Lisa Mosy. She's the manager of permitting and utilities. She'll go through each of the applications and respond to the comments that we heard a little bit earlier. But first, I'd like to turn it over to John
Thomasini, who's the external affairs manager for uh Crown Castle. And I think he can touch on a lot of the comments that were just raised and take a step back and and talk about the importance of reliable wireless communications uh in and around Princeton, but in particular also Palmer Square. So, thank
you for that comment, John. Excuse me. Um we're going to swear in your witnesses. So, if both of you would raise your right hands. You swear the testimony you're about to give is truthful. Yes. Yes. I thought there was going to be more.
It's a good start. Um, ma'am, you could maybe introduce yourself again. And would you spell your last name for our record? Certainly. My name is Lisa Mosy. M O ZI. And I am the manager of permitting and utilities for Crown Castle.
All right. Thank you. Welcome, sir. My name is John. J O H N. Uh Thomasini. I assume you can probably just spell that. Uh T O M
A S I N I. And I am a external affairs manager uh covering Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, go ahead.
Yeah, first of all, uh thank you very much to the board for the opportunity to be here today and um I I think that uh I'd be remiss if I didn't start by uh thanking Miss Kim for her kind comments and uh I would uh completely concur that we've enjoyed a really nice working
relationship with this municipality from your electeds to your staff uh to to your administrator and and mayor's office. Um myself personally, I've uh spent the last two years uh working really closely uh with the municipality
and uh as our efforts to enhance and uh improve your telecommunications infrastructure here on behalf of our um significant customers uh Verizon and and T-Mobile. Um, I think that, uh, as the councilman asked for, it's probably good
to take a step back and understand who we are, what we're doing, and how our solutions are in fact impacting, uh, both your municipality and your constituents. Um, Crown Castle is the uh, largest provider of shared telecommunications infrastructure in the
United States. Um and what that means is that we invest the capital to build infrastructure whether it's macro solutions uh small or uh cell towers um small cells which we're talking about today and then fiber. Uh so those three
components make up our portfolio. Uh in 42 states in Puerto Rico we have approximately 40,000 uh macro cell tower sites. So those are going to be when you reference rooftop solutions that's a macro solution. uh think about your big cell towers that
you pretty much see uh anywhere along any any roadway today. Um while it's not a hard and fast rule, typically your macro uh towers are going to be located on private property, building tops and things of that nature. Um second component and the thing that we're going
to be uh our applications that are before you today are small cell wireless facilities. Uh, Crown Castle has approximately 120,000 small cell facilities either on air or under construction uh throughout the the uh geographic uh footprint that I just
explained. Um, and small cells I I know that most of you are probably familiar with them as your your town has a number of them. Uh, but small cells are are what brings your your signal down to the ground, right? It's that reliable capacity densification of your network,
if you will. So um small cells are going to be always connected to fiber optic cables. Um in the case of Crown Castle, we build our infrastructure uh with redundancy so that in most cases these small cell facilities will not fail uh based off of an infrastructure
um uh degradation or or something of that nature. And then our last component um is fiber optic cable. Um, as I sit here today, we have approximately 100,000 route miles of fiber optic cable um, running either on aerial pole
attachments uh, under the ground uh, or uh, in in Princeton's case in some areas right below the surface of the rideway um, which is our our really innovative uh, approach. Um, having said that, I think what what really makes us unique is that anything we're building, right,
is to minimize the impact in the communities that we're building. It's to do it in a manner that fits in uh as best as we can with your aesthetic values and and what's important to you aesthetically. Um, I can tell you from my personal standpoint, um, it it is a a
source of immense pride for for Crown Castle and for me when we can go into a place and and look like we really haven't been there. Um, and as we, you know, uh, sort of look to marry the historic significance of places like Princeton, right, and and things that
are really important to you all with the need for the data demand that is continuing to come at us at an exponential uh, pace and and is showing no no signs and I'm pretty confident that it's not going to going to slow at this point. So, um I think that's pretty
pretty much uh Councilman, hopefully that's what you're looking for in terms of a holistic approach of how we got here today. Um again, we've we've really uh done a lot of work right over over the past few years um with with the municipality and and largely pretty
seamlessly. So, um I think that when we look at what are before you today, it's just a continuation of of those efforts. I understand um why some sites may be more sensitive than than the other ones. Um but I think I also be remiss if I
didn't let you know that no site that we ever select or that our customers select is is done without extensive background and research. So when you hear um as my colleagues will disc will discuss uh RF engineers, radio frequency engineers both in-house with Crown Castle and with
our customers, they're going to do extensive research uh data data accumulation and on the ground uh looking at why a site needs to be selected, why there's a coverage gap um and not just willy-nilly pick those
sites. Right? So the sites before you today um were were were um arrived at based off of that really um sort of significant due diligence, right? And um you know why that matters is because
there's at the most important end of the spectrum, there's a public safety need. There's an ability or an inability, right? when when the town is really overloaded, think parents weekend, special events, things like that, where it doesn't really matter how many
rooftop solutions you have or how many macro cell tower sites you have. Um, I always like to use the example, everyone in here has probably been at a concert or a sporting event where you're looking at your phone and you're seeing four or five bars, but yet you can't send out that picture or video that you just
took, right? And those aren't coverage coverage issues. What those are, those are capacity issues. your network has been overloaded. So, um I know from my time here on the ground and talking to your police chief and public safety director uh as well as various staff members and electeds um including
including your state senator here that that's what that's what's occurring, right? Your your your network is being overwhelmed to the point that um you need to densify that that um that that overarching network. So all the efforts that we're doing here today um and and
have done and are looking to do in the future um continue to build out that densification of of your network so that when you do have those types of things, law enforcement will be able to communicate uh via their cell phones. Um 90% of all 911 calls are made from a
cell phone. Uh so it's critical that those um networks are able to be operational and functional when you're seeing that abundance of people come in. Um, I think really that's uh the kind of 10,000 foot view of uh of of who we are
and and what we're looking to do here today. And um there's no questions for for me. I think I could pass it over to Lisa to speak uh at a more granular level. Are there are there general questions or should we move on to the uh
John Street, NASA Street and Palmer Square discussion? I have a need for some clarification. When you select a site like in Palmer Square, do you approach Palmer Square management,
discuss with them or do you come to the municipality first? Yeah, great question. Um, and typically it would be a municipality. So, um, like I mentioned, uh, your large macro cell towers are typically on private property. Um, it's the complete opposite with the small cell facilities that
we're talking about today. So, Crown Castle, we're a public utility, um, regulated by the BPU in New Jersey, and, uh, we're going to typically work with, um, almost exclusively work with the municipality and find those those, uh, public rightaways to access.
And, and also, we want to make sure that we're on the same page. You all know what's coming, right? There's not just all of a sudden a a canister looking type of thing in front of a building or something. All right. Thanks. All right. If you
want to go into the each each one, if you want to go uh in the order that Elizabeth did, I think it was um first was NASA Street, NASA Street, Nassau, John and then John Street and then Palmer Square. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure
to be able to speak with you tonight. U talking about the first site which is on Nassau Street. Um it is our PRC 048 uh designation. Uh, as Miss Kim eloquently mentioned, we
are proposing and the the application that we have on the table is to uh take a decorative metal pole. Uh, this is uh in New Jersey uh DOT right ofway. So, this is not on Princeton University property. This is public right ofway
along Nassau Street. Lisa, I'm sorry. I just want to offer to commission members the applicant has brought extra sets if they don't have it. We do have copies of all the construction drawings if you'd like to have them in front of you and take a look. I have it. I think anyone need them. Does anyone need
the drawings to reference? Okay. Yeah. All right. They're here if if you change your mind. Um, so this site, uh, as Miss Kim mentioned originally, and let me just back up a little bit on and speak about all three
sites really briefly. And John, you did a fantastic job just to kind of um speak about why these are important. But uh to add to that, these three sites that we are constructing right now, we've done a lot of work in Princeton for uh existing
sites to upgrade coverage and capacity. Um these three are brand new locations and they are really critical to in this case Verizon uh who are the first carriers to be on here um for their coverage. All right. So, um, when we
talked about having these holes in coverage, these three are going to help to plug those holes. Um, so this is very important to the carrier that they get these locations uh to be able to to address that concern and uh for coverage
and and public safety, frankly. So, um, for this site on Nassau Street, we have the decorative poll and that Miss Kim, you did a great job just to to reiterate everything that's being proposed here, so I won't repeat everything that you
just said. Um, some of the comments that came back or the the latest sets of comments um, reference the concrete pad um, and the need for the the size clarification there. So the concrete pad will be um 43 in long by 25 in wide and
6 in depth and it will be flush to the ground. Um and then you had questioned the overall size of the cabinet and that uh is shown on detail two of sheet five on the plan. So
and I think the commission um should know that this is between the sidewalk and the curb. So there's that gravel area and that's where they're proposed to put it. That is where this would be proposed. Yes. Thank you. Any questions on this location? I guess
take them one at a time. No questions for Nassau Street. Yeah. Oh, Elizabeth, I just want to add something for this site. Um what happened is uh the applicant has agreed to certain things which I think that is a benefit to um
the uh existing structure not altering it too much. They agreed to reinstall the the mink green cobra head which is consistent along uh Nassau Street and actually goes down Witherspoon Street as well. um keeping the brackets um um the
arm extension. That way um even though we know that probably the state will come by and alter it sometime when they do that they can do that all at once but at least this way it still does mean some consistency in design what's out there and that they're going
to be keeping changing the bulb to a LED. Okay, great. Um Emily, did you have a question? Um just a quick question. It's good to to know that this is going to occur in the gravel area, not the blue stone. Um but there is a very large tree
um that it's it's not shown on the drawing. Um, and um, I I just it's I I was trying to scale it out from from the drawing to figure out where the tree is, but I assume that that will be I mean,
you know, you can see it in the photograph that it's, you know, fairly close. And by the time everything all of the the other equipment goes to the west on Nassau Street, I think
it'll be close to the tree. Does anybody are you are you concerned about impacting the roots of the tree? Yes. Or Yeah, we Yes, that should not be a problem. The distance that we are from the tree and I'm looking at the photo right now
um of that is so if you're facing the if you're in the street facing the tree to the right I assume yeah that should not be impacted. we won't be um digging in a depth that would impact the roots of that tree for this. And and
the location is um that we're taking is going to be the location of the existing pole. We're just assuming that and changing that to a little bit larger of a pole. So, same lo same same location as the light exists today, just now with uh
Yeah. No, I I was wondering about the um but the tree won't be impacted. Yeah, the the um the hand holes that are to the west of the light pole. So that's but you know
that's I just want we don't Yes. I don't anticipate that the hand holes will affect anything in terms of the the roots of the tree. We're not digging that deep. Okay. Yeah. Because one of them appar appears to be six or is says it's six
feet long. So it's not insignificant. Okay. Thank you. Sure. All right. Roger, did you have a question? Yeah. On one of the schematics it says relocate pedestrian crossing sign. There's not currently a pedestrian crossing sign there. I don't believe
you are correct. Very very good. Yes, that was a discussion that we had I think in June uh when we spoke with the engineering department as well as uh Miss Kim in a meeting that we had where u it was communicated to us that there
may be in future a crossing placed there and they asked us to add a comment that if there and when I think there is plans um when that comes to fruition that we would adjust the lighting
to adhere to crosswalk type lighting. So that's our comment saying yes, we will do that when the time comes. We'll work with you on the lighting there. So Roger, that comment came from the municipal engineer. She felt that there might be a crossing in the future that
they'd have to work out with the state. Okay, thank you. Are there more questions about NASA Street? And if not, we Yes. We going Elizabeth, your testimony has been truthful. It has.
Thank you. Maybe you could introduce yourself to the audience. They may not know who you are. Elizabeth Kim, historic preservation officer. All right. Thanks, Elizabeth. All right. Um, should we go on to John Street? We can. Sure.
Okay. So, John's Street. Um the location itself I think it started at at John Street. We are now on Paul Robinson Place and the application is to assume um
the traffic light pole which will be changed out to a matte black and the antenna will be placed on that ground furniture in the uh grass area behind and it will be um shielded by inkberry holly and
plantings. Uh the comments that I received back on this location was again just uh clarifying the concrete pad size uh it will be flush to the ground 36 in length
by 22 in width and 6 in depth. the width of the cabinet. I think we we discussed that is on detail three as sheet five of the plans and we did Crown Castle does agree to Matt Black uh as proposed on the on the
plans and the mast arm the length of the mast arm will be 20 feet in length. What was that Lisa? The length of the the new mast arm will be 20 feet in length and that is this the same as the
existing. Okay. Yeah. And if I can just add um just because Lisa said about it being flushed to the ground and I I know someone had an initial comment um anything that we're doing like this is going to be completely ADA compliant um just in case there was any cons concern about that.
This is all going to be taken into consideration before um this stuff is placed. Okay. Thank you. Are there questions about um the John Street installation or comments? Roger. On on the west side of the Dorothia House
driveway, there's a a tan box on a pole. I'm not sure if that's cable TV or a PSEG box. I was just curious if that's something totally separate. I don't think it's a traffic control box, but um
I wonder if that were going to be incorporated or that will be there as well. It's on you talking about a polemounted box? Pile mounted box. Okay. It's it's pretty much a ground. It may be like two feet two three feet off the
ground. I'm not sure what a tan picture. Okay. It's it's not telecommunications, at least not uh involving Crown Castle. Okay. Other questions?
Right. So, so this this installation would also have the matte black pole. Yes. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Any other questions? if uh Elrich um
uh your organization, your your company has come before us on numerous occasions over maybe 15 years that I can remember. Um how often you mentioned that these are all new facil new installations with
the ones that we've approved in the past. How long what is the what is the the general time period of their efficiency before you replace them? I well that's a very good question. I don't I don't think it would be
necessarily replacing them as upgrading the equipment. So technolog is always ever evolving changing improving and the radios that are installed change as well. So the way we have this and John can elaborate a little bit more within
those larger boxes which we call our shrouds is our equipment the individual carriers radios um and as they improve and the next generation of those comes out we will change those out. So
generally that's could be 10 years you know. Um but I guess I guess what's in the back of my mind is is there any chance? It seems like they get anyway I can remember when I was in college there was one computer on campus
and that was it was in a facility about you know onecar garage and it probably had enough it had enough capacity for what you have on your ring finger or something at this point. um these, you know, and I I I can remember
when radios were the size of stoves and the, you know, do your when you re when you replace or upgrade or improve your capacity, do these things ever get smaller?
Yeah, I was just going to add first of all, great great question and I and I think Lisa really did a good job of uh speaking to it, but you know, I think uh if you think about it, right, we were just talking about 3G, right, a couple years ago and now we're deploying 5G. Asian markets are rolling out 6G and
developing 7G, right? So once we build this infrastructure, we can remove that shroud, right? and swap out the Verizon radio equipment, the T-Mobile radio equipment, what have you. Right. And make those make those upgrades on that existing infrastructure, right? Um, some
of the neat things to your to your point that we're we've been uh deploying and and trying as as pilots uh in for instance in Philadelphia is uh putting four or five carriers on one shroud like that, right? So, um yes, thing things
are getting smaller, right? and you're able to colllocate more and more uh carriers emergency radio equipment on one piece of infrastructure which again when you think about minimizing environmental impact right minimizing footprint um all that stuff sort of
matters right so um to your point um or to your question I I hope um once this is built it does make it much easier for us um to make those upgrades for our customer as they become as they become available and to have uh more on what's
already built if that makes sense. Thank you. One other one other question based on on and and this has to do with preservation. I can remember um there's a church up in Nishanic
and the steeple which was quite a wonderful ornament um had fallen into terrific disrepair and there was actually an executive I think from one of these companies who knew about that
and they wound up putting their the the the apparatus within the refurbish refurbished Um, steep Belelfflerey, our company stores buildings in a
facility on a farm in Hopewell Burough. Um, they're no longer they no longer are doing traditional farming. There were two silos on that property. The farm was in pretty bad pretty.
And it they they actually increased the size of the silo to the point where it's taller than the steeples in town. But in any event, the farm is done well enough that it's now in 80 acres or in farmland preservation in the middle of of Hopewell.
I heard before that there had been some talk about putting a facil put some of this apparatus on one of the roofs in Palmer Square. Beyond that though, I mean, I know of at least one church here on Witherspoon Street, which hasn't been
open for several years. We visited a few years ago, the the Mount Pisca Church. Is it possible that the on the within that structure there might be an opportunity for one of your facilities at some point?
So, like we alluded to in the beginning, right, when we're talking about rooftop solutions, um, again, those are going to be macro solutions, right? So, those are going to be closer to um your traditional cell tower and not necessarily what we're trying to do, which is bring that signal down to the ground.
Okay. Okay. So, John, I just want to address that because um well, a few things uh Elrich to to talk about in the the tower. Yes, there are a lot that go in. We have it at Trinity
Church. We have it at Holder Hall. multiple um facilities within the university and within town where they are shielded within the the steeple or you know where you can't see it and there's multiple um uh telecommunication
companies that are in there. So which is what we like because it's it's hidden. Um, and and John, when you talked about that, uh, that they're getting smaller, I think really what it is is I haven't seen the shrouds that I've looked at
that's being replaced actually getting smaller. I I feel like the equipment, that equipment, the antennas are kind of staying the same. Um, but I understand what you're saying where you colllocating. So instead of having one, you have two or three. So you're
eliminating maybe some other pole someplace else, but at the same time on that pole, you do have to expand it to be able to include more, you know, equipment on there. The pole gets larger because it has to um sustain the weight
of additional um equipment, things like that. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, that that's right. But you know, I I think that and and I wanted to say this in my in my introductory comments, right? But but the difference between Crown Castle um building the infrastructure and colllocating is that
we're okay with Verizon and T-Mobile and AT&T and uh Dish Network which is Boost um and other entities and maybe it's a jurisdictional uh emergency radio equipment, right? Which is is not something um that that would be foreign
to us, right? Um, but if AT&T is self-performing that, right, they're not leasing then out to Verizon, right? So, um, I think that's important to note, right? Because what you have in that situation then is multiple carriers competing for, um, that valuable real
estate, that valuable public rightaway space. and um for you all right where uh historic preservation is is why we're here tonight um you certainly don't want to entertain three separate small cell facilities um in and around the same
sort of valuable parcel of land. So um I I do think that that's worth worth noting. So, I think that from a business model for Crown Castle, um, we would still say that even if we have to have a little bit bigger housing, if you will, or or shroud size or or what have you,
right? We're still significantly minimizing um that overall environmental footprint sort of impact um as opposed to having multiple carriers build out their own thing or or even just us building out for a single carrier, a single site like
that. Mhm. And and I guess um maybe what Eller was alluding to when he talked about the church is because right on the corner there on John Street and Paul Robson is a church and um even though that's it's not only used for macro, but
I understand that Crown Castle prefers to be in the public right away, but it's not something that's not an option that couldn't be investigated. Correct. Well, what so typically and and again I don't want to assume because I don't not familiar with the locations, right? But when you're talking about inside of the
the buildings or inside of the university, you're talking about a venue solution or or or DOS type of uh setup, right? So, listen, Crown Castle, we do a lot of venues. We do NFL stadiums, NBA arenas, things like that. Um but again, that's not going to solve the coverage
gaps outside of those facilities um or very far outside of those facilities, right? So, um I I I just got back from Cincinnati, Ohio. They're building a new convention center, right? A situation like that. Yeah. You're going to have that that DAS equipment inside of the
inside of the facility, right? Um well, it's actually facing out, you know, it can be. Yeah. The ones that I'm talking about like in the in the steeples and things like that, they're actually it's not internal. It's it's just shielded by the steeple and it's open to it. So
yeah, I'd love to see it sometime. University has a lot. Um so um I think that's it for me for now. Thank you, man. All right. So let's talk more about
Palmer Square um and that specific installation. Um sure. All right. So, uh, Palmer Square South, uh, next to what is the Triumph restaurant, former post office.
Um, we are proposing to take an existing Town and Country Street light poll and uh, make that poll larger. I'm looking at the comments here. Um
comments received back prior to this meeting were questioning the size of the cabinet. Um that is shown on detail two of sheet five. Second question was in regard to um and Miss Kim, you brought this up in your
opening remarks. Um the disconnect meter uh being mounted on the outside of the cabinet. And why was that necessary? Um and the answer to that is very simple. That is a PSENG requirement that they be mounted on the outside. So in
order to keep this cabinet as compact as possible, it is incorporated and embedded in the cabinet itself. Uh the alternative to that would be a separate pedestal with a meter on it. So I don't I don't think anyone wants a whole other
um pedestal established there. So in interest of uh keeping things small and compact as possible, it's been incorporated into our cabinet and that is approved by PSENG. Lisa, can I ask you are all the meters
on the three that we're seeing are they all are the all the meters on the outside of all the cabinets? Okay. Yes. Okay. Uh there was a question or comment regarding the height of the pole base um
indicating the existing height of the base is 3 foot 10 in. However, the height of the of the proposed was not um included in the drawings. So the drawings themselves uh on Palmer
Square, this is a conceptual drawing. Uh once the design is approved, exact specs will be created. This is going to be a customordered poll. Um we are happy to accept feedback from HPC on what you
would like to see in Palmer Square. Um certainly take that into consideration. We will match we are happy to match existing um if we are if you have the exact specs of the poles that are there now. I'll be
happy to take them back and and will purchase the same. I have some examples of bases that mirror. I was out to Palmer Square earlier today and there are two different bases um in front of a
type of base that's in front of Triumph. Um and then uh it actually the poll that we are proposing to uh build on is where it changes to another style of base. Uh so we have duplicates of both styles and
are happy to take feedback on on what you would like to see there. Um so I can pass it around if you'd like. Um these come from Valmont is our manufacturer. Okay. Uh, another comment received was
just asking about uh the existing lumers and same same answer to that. This is the conceptual drawing and we will match what is uh currently in place on site. We are proposing because uh there will
be an antenna on the top of the pole. So obviously the light can't go on the top uh in so in place of that the design showed two luminires. Uh if HPC preference would be one we're happy to
accommodate that comment. There was a comment given in regard to uh spacing and I think um sorry I'm trying to read as I go here pedestrian spacing. Uh so on sheet one
of the drawing which is located on page three it does show that there is 6' 7 in of space between the cabinet the new new proposed cabinet and the edge of the sidewalk. So um that is
uh more than the ADA requirement of 36 in and Princeton's requirement of 4T. So more than ample uh pedestrian walking space around that uh two hand there was a comment in regards to the handholes in the
equipment having a lip. All handholes the equipment will be flush to the ground. There will be nothing to trip over those will all be flush. There was a comment regarding the right-of-way line. The we
did um have a professional right-of-way survey done. The back of the sidewalk is the right-of-way line and that is shown on uh sheet one on page three of the drawing. So, the rightway line is there indicating back of sidewalk.
Could you go over that again? I'm sorry. Sure. Um, I'm looking at your comment number seven. Uh, and I believe it was asking for the right of way to be shown on the plans. So, the right ofway is the the two dash
lines, right? And then the long line. Um, and can you tell us where the limit of that is? Because I know that there's that section there which is the Princeton right of way. Correct. Let me go to the drawing.
But yes, it is the dashed line. It remains consistent as the back of sidewalk across and within the scope of work area, it's the back of sidewalk. So all proposed work in relation to this site is will be in
public right of way. Can you also talk about where the limit of the sidewalk is? Is it shown on that drawing? Because that was difficult to see. It's probably is because it's the same line as the rightaway line. Um, but yes, that
the rightaway line is the back of the sidewalk and we have a separate rideaway survey, I believe. Is it part of these drawings? Okay. So, the right the the the sidewalk is the same as the right ofway line, which means that the the
cabinet and the handholes are in the right of way in I mean in the sidewalk. Sorry, I'm just looking for the actual right of way survey because that might give you some additional clarity. Oh, thank you. Okay.
Oh, the handholds are in the sidewalk. Sorry if you asked. Yeah. So, the handhole which is now going to be flush. It won't have a lip, but they'll be in the sidewalk in addition to the equipment box. Correct. That's correct. Yes. This is the sheet that they're looking at. Oh, okay. Thank you. I'll send that around. Let me see it.
Is that okay? And then let's see. Okay. There was a comment made to um ensure that the sidewalk replacement matches in design, material, and color.
That is agreed. Crown Castle will coordinate with the municipal engineer to ensure that the replacement sidewalk matches the existing. Okay. Oh. Okay. Thank you. Sure.
Everybody got this. Okay. Okay. All right. Did you want to continue with comments? Sure. Comments nine and 10. um reference. Okay. So, comment nine
was in regard to the request for rooftop solution. So, I think John touched on that certainly. Um that is a different type of deployment uh which would be akin to as he mentioned a macro or tower type of
deployment. Um I do have and was provided to um Palmer Square Management back in January of this year a letter from Crown Castle's senior RF engineer
which uh states and I can uh pass this around uh which states that well I can I'm trying to think if it's easier for me to read a section of this Um, the historic nature of Palmer Square lends itself to be a popular and
bustling section of Princeton. The density of wireless devices require local dedicated wireless facilities to provide cellular coverage within Palmer Square itself. From a radio frequency perspective, the surrounding structures
of Palmer Square act as a barrier for cell equipment. It would be detrimental to place the antennas on buildings as the signal would propagate out further than Palmer Square. This would interfere with surrounding macro sites and other
small cell sites in the vicinity. Unfortunately leading to overall degradation of cellular coverage in the area. The silver lining of this placement is that the small cell site within Palmer Square is solely for its own
benefit. So our senior RF engineer at Crown indicates that it's not a feasible solution. I also have a similar letter from the associate director of RF at Verizon, Peter Festa, which I can pass
around as well. Um late last week, he contributed this knowing that we would uh be speaking with you all tonight. Um and again, uh I'll read a portion of that. Verizon respectfully submits this correspondence in support of Crown
Castle's small cell wireless application specifically within public right of way. We understand and appreciate the commission and Palmer Square's management concern regarding aesthetic impact of infrastructure in this historically significant area. In
response, Verizon has thoroughly evaluated alternate sighting options, including the use of building walls and rooftops within Palmer Square. Unfortunately, this approach has proven to be unfeasible. From a radio frequency engineering perspective, the surrounding
structures in Palmer Square act as physical barriers that inhibit effective signal propagation. Placing antennas on buildings or rooftops would result in signal overshoot. Again, extending coverage beyond intended areas and interfering
with macro nearby cell sites. This would compromise network performance and fail to adequately address persistent coverage and capacity issues that have impacted Palmer Square. To resolve these issues, the most effective solution is the small cell installation within
public right of way. We appreciate your thoughtful consideration. So, I can pass that around. So, we have um Lisa, I have a question for you regards to that. Um, so are they making that comment because they feel
like the building will be too tall and it'll overshoot or if there was a building that was lower like the post office that might be more in line with the height that you're proposing for a pole that would not overshoot that could still be considered, right? And it would
not shoot over Palmer Square because it's actually right in the green. I think the building the rooftop solution uh aside from being the macro type of a deployment um there are natural barriers
to being able to propagate that signal in that 360 degree range. Um so you know this the spot that's been chosen has been carefully selected uh as the optimal position to be able to
address the issues. Uh the small cell build itself is um meant to complement the macro and the tower sites. It's meant to work together as John mentioned. Um, and in order to effectively deploy that, we need to be
closer to the ground level. All right. Thank you. Um, Freda, you had a comment. Yeah, I have a comment on the application overall. Um, you were showing us drawings and you're saying it's conceptual only, yet you
have dimensions, right? I feel that, you know, what we're trying to do here is to see how your proposal and your project affects affects the historic district. But if you you you also said that after the
application is approved, you'll give us drawings to scale. To me, that doesn't follow. We need to see the actual Sure. We need to see how your dimensions affect the historic district. And so instead of conceptual, usually in my
field when you do conceptual, you you give no dimensions because it's con conceptual. It's not actual. You actually have a pole that's growing by seven feet and then you have an antenna on top of it. Correct. How does that affect everything around
it? You know, you you need to do some mockups. We need to see it in act, you know, in reality so that we can make a decision because I feel like this is almost telling us to trust what you're saying that it's not going to affect anything
and I I don't feel that and when I say conceptual I mean conceptual in terms of the the two luminires uh the the aesthetic design of it the the base whether it's fluted or 3
feet those are all we're we welcome any feedback to make changes one of the major things that I have found being on the historic district is uh the historic um commission is that
you need you're coming to us to ask us to approve your project based on how it affects the historic districts, but you're not showing us exactly what it's going to look like. And I feel like I would need to see that
how you know in relation to everything around it. You know, you know the uh the the height of say the post office, you know, you you can figure out how to mock it up to make us actually see how your
new poll will affect that building. And I think that's really important. you know, you you you can't have we're not all um like I draw every day. I do architectural drawings every day. So, I understand how the relationship is and I
know that if I make a presentation to a client, I couldn't do that. I couldn't just say, "Oh, it's conceptual." Because when I actually install it and it's wrong, guess what? I'm paying to replace it. So, I'm just asking that you show us some realistic drawings instead of
showing us conceptual drawings that where we really cannot make a make a decision. I know I I can't based on this when I see that a a pool is growing seven feet and it has a bigger antenna on top. I'm wondering
how's you know Dorothia house going to to experience that. I'm wondering how the buildings around it will experience that. So, I'm I'm And then you're wanting us to approve it and then you show it to us, but then you'll you'll say, "Well, it's already approved."
Well, I'm speaking of Palmer Square, not the um Right. But I'm looking at all of them right now. I have all pulled up. I believe those the measurements are going back and forth on all of them. in in the past uh going back eight or 10 years now, we did get
photo simulations with from Crown Castle with the applications and that was very helpful in terms of everything is has limitations but it was very helpful in terms of getting to see what what things look
like. Um I'm only really concerned about the Palmer Square site. I think the others we have infrastructure there that's not that much different. We're going up in the air. It's my personal view. I'm more
concerned about I think Elizabeth said this earlier, you know, looking down from Nassau Street toward the green and seeing a much larger pole sticking in the in the viewshed. Um, having done this in the past, are we
still dealing with mesh networks? is a so going 10 ft toward Palmer Square east would is not not possible or going toward the corner of Palmer Square east and Palmer Square south across from the
RH house store uh across from uh Windberries um you know that that's kind of a no man's land and it and it would move the pole away from the green which is the central
feature of of Palmer Square. Um, so if the engineering were were possible, I would much rather see something like that. Um, oh yeah, Emily, I'd like to just follow up on that because, um, as Elizabeth said and Roger said,
it's but it's visible as you enter Palmer Square and it's actually almost exactly on axis as you drive into Palmer Square. Um, and you can see that on the on the site plan. Um, and so it's it's
it's not just visible. It will be in the middle of what you what you see as you enter. Um, and and I agree the look something on the Windberry side um towards the the east um would certainly
be preferable. I mean, the other strange factor is these things kind of disappear after a while. There's one uh right by Griggs lot across from the library. I don't think I don't think I see it anymore, but that's not as critical a view as as the one we're
talking about. They do once constructed hide in plain sight. They do. Um and we can certainly provide photo sims. That's not a problem. Um, I would ask uh, you know,
for for Palmer Square, I would ask um, the HPC for feedback on what you would like to see there. And before we get into this, um, I just wanted to see if there's a public comment. Um, if someone from Palmer
Square is here or if there's other people in the room that might want to comment on this these applications. Um, so just so we make sure that's available. Any
before we get that, Elizabeth, before we go, I just want to make sure I don't think there's any public comment. Just wanted to check. No public comment. Nope. Okay. So, no, there's no one from the public
who wants to comment. All right. Let's get into a discussion. Um be wait before we talk about Palmer Square. Um are commission members ready to move forward with the other two or not? Um I guess I'd like to get feedback.
Yes. Can Can I just ask the applicant something? Can you tell us the equipment boxes? Are they all about 5 foot five and the same width and length? Those three. Yes.
Sorry. Yes. Um I think we we reviewed that. You're talking about the cabinet dimensions. Yes, there are the ground cabinet. Okay. Is there any opportunity for them to be smaller? Because I think there's a recent one that came in that seems to be
a little bit shorter. Um and I'm just wondering what dictates that size. Uh it is dictated by the equipment that's going inside. Um and I think for if we're referencing Palmer Square as
well as uh Nassau Street, the size in addition to the equipment that is going in is also we need to achieve the height required by PSENG for the meter. Uh so in some cases we have a plinth on the
bottom so that we can achieve the height that's needed. So there's a new application that came in that's on Witherspoon Street. Um it's at the very end of the Witherspoon Jackson Strict that is proposing a cabinet. I know we've talked about it.
This the consolidation of two poles. That cabinet seems to be shorter like 4 feet. Oh wait, in fact does that have a cabinet? I think that I think I think that there's I think actually the meter is mounted on the pole. Uh it's a wooden pole. Does that make a
difference wood versus a metal pole? It can because we are limited by our utility agreement with a pole owner. So depending on whether it's a Crown Castle poll or a PSE and Gown poll, it may change the shroud size that's being uh
you know submitted. Yeah. And I would just add Elizabeth, right? Each each site is is is unique, right? And I think that maybe it's obvious, but as a starting point, we're always going to pursue the most uh minimal uh dimensions possible. And if
they're larger in this case than the one that you just referenced on Witherspoon, um it's because of a functional necessity. If you look on if you I'm I'm sorry. If you look on sheet S3, we have a detail of that equipment cabinet. So it's not
5'5, it's it's 55 in. Um so I'm in specifically I'm I'm referring to 120 John Street, for example. Okay, if you look at sheet S3, which is uh five of 15, and if you look at that, that shows it's
a great diagram. It's it's uh detail number three. It's great because it shows how all the equipment fits in that minimal space. So, it's about 20 in wide, 30 in 36 in across, but it's 55 in high,
not 5 foot five. And then it's on a base plinth. So the total height is 61 in. So that's a little bit smaller than I think the 5 foot5 that was referenced, but if you can see, you can see how all the equipment is I want to say squeezed
in there, but very very very very tight inside that cabinet. And I just want to go back and Miss Howard, I thought you had a good point earlier because I think we had this I thought you had a good point earlier about the conceptual. I think I think what um I think what was stated before
as far as conceptual is not the height of the pole or the size of the equipment or the size of the box, anything like that. That's all on the plans. That's what's proposed. The the only thing that's of question which I think we were looking for feedback on is the um Palmer
Square site. So the other two sites, all of the details are on the plans as proposed 100%. There's nothing more really for us to add to that. On Palmer Square, I think what the what the request was and that's why we handed up the different fluted bases. There's a couple different options. There's a
couple different options already out in the field. So, we just wanted to try and provide something and maybe for Palmer Square, maybe it requires a little bit more research. On the other two, I think we're very well set on matching what's out there as far as the the light arm and so forth and so on. But on Palmer
Square, you know, there's really two questions. One is the base, the type of fluting on the base. And I know that seems like a small detail. We don't think it is. We think it's important. And maybe that's kind of what we were looking for the feedback. Maybe not necessarily tonight, but before the next meeting. And then the other question is we could either do two luminires or one
luminere. We will match what the luminere looks like because that luminere in Palmer Square is a little bit different than let's say on Nassau Street. So we'll match the luminere. The question is whether we do one arm with a luminere or two arms to balance it out with two luminers. The two luminires
would be a little bit different but we think we think it gives balance and that's what we proposed uh with respect to Palmer Square. But if the commission felt one luminere was better uh again we're we're comfortable either way. We were proposing on our plans the two
luminers uh because we thought it it it provided better balance. So, I just wanted to make sure we we uh addressed that comment because I thought you had a good point earlier. Robert, can I just address the height of the equipment box? So, if I'm looking at sheet four, it says 5'5 in the top of
equipment. So, that's based on the uh plinth that's at the bottom. That's that's what I'm looking at at the bottom. So, yeah. And also if I go to sheet five which will say to the right side will say 55 in and then to the left it'll say
61. So correct a little bit over five. So it's it's it so based on the based on the bottom piece is the plinth. That was the difference. Right. So when you were asking I think the question was can we make the box smaller and the answer is really no because if you look at that detail we've squeezed
everything into that box. It's really the the the plinth at the bottom and the mounting plate and so forth and so on. And as we confirmed earlier um for Palmer Square because it's not in um it's not in the triangle for Palmer
Square, it's in the sidewalk. So it'll be it'll be flat to the base. It'll be flat to the sidewalk. Okay. I hope that makes sense. Does that does is that reflected in the detail? It is. Okay. All right. So what what we'd asked tonight because I I think there were a lot of good questions. We we would ask you to go
forward with the first two sites. It's very important for us. And on Palmer Square, we'd like to work with you and staff on on those couple little nuances. I think there was a request to look at maybe moving it closer to the RH House building um and and do a visual rendering to show how when you come in
uh you know how that relates to the existing buildings and the viewshed in that direction. But for the first two, we do have everything on the plans and we would ask you to move forward on that tonight if at all possible. All right. So, as far as Palmer Square
location is concerned, you're saying that it might be possible to shift that location. I I think we have to look at it. I think you raised I think you raised a point and if you're able to move forward on the other two and we can come back on Palmer Square because they are separate
applications. Okay. Right. We go with that. All right. So, um, given that information, are there are there more questions about the John Street installation and the Nassau Street
installation? I just had a general question. A lot of the other box U poles around town have polemounted boxes. I was just curious why. I'm not sure it's
appropriate for a historic district, but uh I was wondering why these are now have a separate unit on the ground, a ground mounted box, control box. Aesthetic reasons for for those three.
Is it that just to minimize the poll? Um I I I think that we need to go back um just just for one second to Palmer Square, right? And um I I I I assure you that we have done um as much work as we possibly could with
both our um internal engineers, our internal RF engineers um because we knew that likely you would want to see us look at a different location. Um, but really where we're at here is to provide
the coverage to our customer. Um, this is really the location. Um, I understand that your charge is to protect the historic properties that make Princeton Princeton. And ultimately the decision that you all have to make is whether or
not um you can have uh some some give or bend to get that necessary coverage to provide those public safety enhancements and measures in Palmer Square. Um, that's your charge, right? Um, I all I
can do is sit here with Lisa and my colleagues and give you as much information and background as we can. Um, but respectfully, if we can't come to a conclusion on those locations, um, we're probably not going to be able
to make that solution uh for Verizon in Palmer Square. Um, or or at least not at this time. So I think that um just in a in a full transparency um uh s sense of the word um that needs to be said to you all before we
conclude. You know I just want to clarify one thing when you talk about emergency services in Palmer Square. I understand that uh the problem they had that they identified was one which was the the the tree lighting which you know we all know
that's data related. Um but if Palmer Square isn't viable, you know, and you know, we we understand that they're concerned about this because really when you look at that, regardless of where the right of way is, that one section that
Princeton owns, which is a very unusual thing. um when you look at it, it's Palmer Square and they're a strong viability to to Princeton's um business to um you know that their merchantry um to the town and gown and I think that
that's something that you know that everyone on the commission understands you know that Palmer Square is an entity um that um that should be respected in town you know and if there's a way that we can
get that um to have some type of agreement. I think that um there's always a little give in the location. Look at the one that started in front of Fitz Randolph Gate and it moved all the way down towards Firestone. I mean,
there's always some type of uh area that you're not really fixed on that. You know, I don't know if it's because you're on want to be on the upper side or if you could even go to Hullfish Street. I mean I we haven't even talked about that and Hoffen Street on the north side is not even in the
historic district. So um I think that there are other considerations and typically HPC will hire their um their telecommunication consultant to actually look to see where is there a lack of of coverage. You know he'll do the propagation. Um we didn't really do that
this time. I don't know if we feel that we need to. Um but that's up to the commission as well. No. And in respectfully though, that's not going to change the position of the Verizon RF engineer, right? I mean, there's there's a reason why they selected those sites and they want to be
in that site. Um, and and listen, yeah, there there there is give, you know, we we worked together for a long time, Elizabeth, right? And um I wish I could tell you that we could move it uh a block or a block and a half away and uh everyone's happy, but unfortunately um
the the data has fleshed out that we need to be locate and not not we right Verizon needs to be located here. Um and you know, listen, I we're going to work together in the future, right? So um I would love to be able to do that for you. Um and we we banged our heads
against the wall to be able to come here and have some alternative solution. um we just we couldn't get there. Um and listen, I'm I'm not an RF engineer, right? Um so I I don't I don't know the minutia that goes into uh the signal pinging the right way or the signal
getting caught and building shadow um or or being not being able to get your 911 call out when it's the tree lighting, right? um we just know that that's our charge and the customer is not willing to um to to or or not I shouldn't say not willing
they are willing but there's not the alternative solution that allows them to achieve this uh or to solve the gap in in their coverage. Um, I do appreciate that. I wish there was. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's surprising because, as I said, during the pandemic, we took three days walking with Verizon.
We talked about Palmer Square. They understood completely that, you know, Palmer Square wants everything on the rooftop. They didn't seem to have a problem with that. And, you know, uh, Palmer Square management says, "We can get you um, you know, 247 almost access." because I know that that's a
big thing for the telecommunication companies, you know, not to have to go and, you know, contact the person they need to access it that they can just do it on their own. But I think that you have to understand historically, uh, this is a very unique area in Princeton
and that um, sometimes you have to make, you know, concessions to to make it work aesthetically for historic preservation. And I know that you guys have done it because as I said, I've worked with your other team members who have done it in other areas. So I mean and you know from
talking to administration, they'd love for you to look at alternates if you can for to get it off the ground. Um Elizabeth, I think Ed has some comments as well. Yeah, I was just going to reinforce, I think, what Elizabeth said, and that is in the past when we've
had controversial locations for some of these sites, whether on roofs or low, we have gone and we've said to the applicant, give us an escrow. We're going to retain our own RF engineer and that individual is going to study what
your folks studied and come back and testify when you have an RF engineer here and whether or not there is an alternate location that you might be able to live with and the board might be able to approve. So, we we've done that
before and it's worked. But I think that might be the appropriate suggestion here for the for the Palmer Square location. The other two maybe I think the chair is indicating we might be able to move forward with those. But this one is a hot button and it's one that really has
to be studied and has to be explained to the public and to the committee commission rather before they can take action on it. So my recommendation would be we'll get a proposal from our own RF engineer. We'll share that with you. You're going to post an escrow so you
pay for it. You come back maybe in a month or two and we'll we'll take a look at the Palmer Square again with two engineers in the audience to testify. I think we could I think we could take that back and have that conversation with our uh with the rest of our
internal teammates. Um, as far as the uh Palmer Square light pole, are there comments on what people would like to see as far as the base
and um any other details on the on the light fixture? Julie, I think maybe we if we we could wait if we're postponing a part of it, maybe we can, you know, discuss it at
whatever meeting we decide to do that. I think it's kind of premature to decide that now. Okay. At least for me. All right. Um, as far as the John Street location,
are there other comments or suggestions? Um, and if not, is would there be a motion? Okay, Roger. Yeah, I'd move to approve the application.
All right. So, this is for um get the address here. 120 John 120 John Street. Is that it? Yes. Okay. Um is there a second?
I second. Okay. Thanks, Elrich. Okay. Elizabeth, do you want to do the roll call? Yes. Mr. Schin? Yes. Miss Howard? Yes. Mr. Endersby. Yes.
Miss Croll. Yes. Chairperson Capazoli. Yes. All right. So, um, for 122 Nassau Street, um, across the street,
are there further discussions about that one? I know Emily brought up the tree and I guess the concern is would that be a condition that there would be tree protection or there would be uh concern with the tree.
I I think that that's reasonable. Um they could work with the arborist. Uh yeah, maybe with the request to work with our town arborist to make sure the tree is safe.
That that seems like a great idea. Um so is that a motion? Sure. I'll move that we accept the application with consultation with the Roger. Use your microphone. Sorry.
Right. So he's saying that that uh a motion to approve with the uh condition that the town the municipal arborist be consulted as far as the safety of the tree goes. All right. Do you want uh is
there a second to that motion? I'll second it. Okay. Thanks, Emily. Um roll. Yep. Mr. Shatskin. Yes, Miss Howard. Yes, Mr. Endersby.
Yes. Um, let's see. Sorry. Um, Miss Croll. Yes. Chairperson Capolei. Yes. Okay. I guess we uh got a certain amount
done and we will um hope hopefully be uh seeing you at some point again. Um, Ed, that that Nassau Street is section 106. Well, I I think we would want to continue the application. You're here
and you don't have to do anything further if we could announce continuing the application. Uh, it may take more than a month to get an RF person on our side or have you approve it or have the other side approve it. So my recommendation would be to find our date
for the meeting in let's say October and that might give you enough time and us enough time to get an expert to help us out. Uh October I think we're scheduled for um Barski's application to return for whose application?
Barski. Oh 244 Nassau. That's the Honer House. Um, so how how long could we g give them a window without having to renotice?
Well, we can with their consent, we can take a date, you know, further out or, you know, split the meeting half and half. Can can you put it on for September possibly and if we're not ready, then adjourn it at for a date certain at that time. Uh, September are we how's our agenda? I
think we have about four uh Princeton Seminary applications coming in September just as a control date. Okay. The only thing that I would think is if if uh uh Barski's application I'm not sure how long it's going to
take. It is a whole new redesign, right? Um do you think you would be ready in September? No. Can we use it just as a control date and we have to in September so as not to reice like like I don't think you had to
notice. Okay. Did you just as a way to just have a date on the calendar and if we can't make it we'll let you know beforehand and we'll have to check on our end too if we can get uh Dr. Eisenstein. I mean from point of view we're the middle of August.
If you say after we talk further okay fine you go get your own engineer. and we're going to give you an escrow. That's going to take a little bit of time. Then we're going to have to get the RF person on our side and give them the information that you and he's going to have to go or she's going to have to
go to your RFP engineer who wrote those two letters and gather that information. It's never going to get done by September. Plus, we have Labor Day in there as well. I mean, that's a really condensed timeline. I would tend to agree with you, Mr. Shmeir. Right.
We could try to put on October and if if we find that it's we'll just have to push them off. I apologize, but you know, we got a pretty busy agenda. I mean, yeah. You know, we could try October, but it might be November. Okay. So, a placeholder in October.
That's the tw That's the 20th. October 20th. Split time between these guys, right? And just so you know, for November, November is November 17th. Thank you. All right. One one final thought. Um,
when these towers, these applications first started sprouting up, so to speak. One of the most amusing applications was these fake Christmas trees. We have a real Christmas tree in Palmer
Square. Maybe you might consider it. Might be a small fire risk. I'm just wrong. Where do we end up? We're going to try for October Septe I think we have a place mark in October. October the date date
October 20th and November 17th. Those are two dates. So I think the board that the commission tonight should announce that the matter of Palmer Square site is going to be continued till the meeting on October 20th. And if you're not ready then we
can then continue it further. But we'll at least get you in here and if we have to split the agenda, one hour for Barski and one hour for you folks, we can do it. Thank you. All right. Thank you. So continue. So we need a motion to
continue that Palmer Square application to October 20th or November 17th, whatever works out. We need a motion for that. Yeah. Just Okay. All right. Okay. Freda made a motion. Uh second
second. Uh thanks Alrich. Okay. All in favor? I I All right. Thank you guys. And this is uh heads up to the public. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time this evening. Thank Thank you all very much. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you, Elizabeth. All right. So, we have a scheduled public comment if there's uh matters that aren't on the agenda. Um, and after that, we're going to have
a discussion about the HBC education subcommittee and the semiquincentennial anniversary. We have a statement from Mercer Hill.
We'll be hearing from Kip Cherry. We'll be talking about local historic markers and we will be hearing from Anthony Sataro and Doug Bootin um from Satara House. So if you're not on that list and
you have something else to talk about um feel free to raise your hand and if not we'll move forward with the HPC subcommittee. That's That's me. Okay, go. Roger. Uh
we are still working on an adaptive reuse event for October with Triumph Brewery and the Graduate Hotel. Uh things have slowed down over the summer, but uh both venues have committed to
doing it doing the event. Uh it looks like at this point we'll have two separate events uh probably two weeks running in October. Um, still up in the air is whether there'll be a separate lecture event at the historical society. I didn't mention
this is in concert with the historical society of Princeton who was referenced the letter from Verizon and whomever was addressed to the historical soci society. I was sorry
there is that confusion. Um, but we're looking forward to being able to showcase these two very excellent uh, adaptive reuse projects in town that show the value of our historic the
historic fabric of the town and the the what can be done to preserve what's here. uh more perspectively we are in discussions with historical society about uh semisquintentennial
events if I said that correctly. Uh, one thing I think we've discussed and and there may be a bunch of people working on this is highlighting the uh buildings in town, the house houses
primarily that were here uh before the revolution uh having some kind of tour. But again, that's still in the very theoretical stages and other people may be doing something very similar.
any any questions or No, we appreciate your work with this and uh adaptive reuse is near and dear to my heart. So, I think it's a wonderful mission and I think it's a
great way to showcase these really successful projects. So, thank you. Roger. Were you thinking about any dates? If you said it, I'm sorry I didn't hear you. Um, we're looking at essentially I think the
second or third week in October. Okay. And would it be um these would be as we're because these are places of business where lunch and dinner are concerned. It looks like
we'll be in sort of early afternoon between between lunch and dinner. So you you'll be dining there. No, no. It be like Oh, I thought you which was like good way to get inside. No, it it would be a tour and a a
lecture portion somewhere in in the area of like two to three or or three to four during the week. Okay. All right. So, there is a tour associated with it as well. Oh, great. Okay. And uh Kevin Wils, one of the architects who uh worked on among many
architects who worked on the Triumph project has also uh said that he would be involved. So he'll probably be doing the the the the tour and discussion part there. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, Roger. Um,
now on to the semisquentennial uh semiquincentennial anniversary. I have a statement from Mercer Hill. You want me to read that or Madam Chair, can I just ask is there anything that we want to talk about on
those awards? I know that was something that Roger and David Shaw had always talked about in the past. if that was something that we wanted to look at for future projects and recognizing them
or various commissions in town. And I think about the uh environmental commission has uh in the past given out awards for successful environmental projects in town, whether it be personal
people's houses or or commercial. Um I think it's something worth exploring. I had this discussion with Eve Mandel from the historic society and they used to give out awards and she can't remember why they did not why they stopped u that
her sense was that it had kind of diminishing returns but I think it's something that we should ex explore um maybe not every year maybe you know every other year a bianual event uh but
again we're in preliminary investigation of a why they historic society gave it up and b what benefits it it could have for us. I think you know it's nice to be able to recognize somebody who's done a good job and
maintain the historic value of the town. I think it also elevates the educational component of historic preservation for the public who you know might not be aware of a project and how it came about. And uh I think it's another way to be able to bring it, you know, a
spotlight. I will focus on it after we get through adaptive reuse. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Um so the statement from Mercer Hill um they wanted to be here. They said, uh,
the Mercer Hill Historic District Association would like to offer the HBC our help with any 250th anniversary events that the HBC is planning. We have volunteers ready to help or can
offer our assistance with other event planning. Sincerely, Carolyn H. Robertson, uh, IHDA, uh, president. Um, and
to be clear, the HBC really, um, does isn't a main planner for this, the 250th anniversary. Um, but there are a lot of other organizations that are planning things.
So, um I think there's just a good uh it's a good forum to get the word out and how you know how people are going to respond. So, Kip Cherry is here and um we'd love to hear from you. Um maybe you
could just sit at the table and then there's a microphone right by Elizabeth. Julie, if you could pass that on to me, I might I can contact Carolyn. Oh, contact um Carolyn. Yeah. Okay, great.
Roger. I know that um that you were also going to have some email between Carolyn uh from the Mercer Hill. Did that ever happen? She I think she was going to reach out to you directly. Carolyn from the Mercer Hill
Association. No. Okay. So, I will reach out to her. Oh, hi Kip. Thank you for coming. Well, thank you for having me. Um I um came across my desk basically that uh
there's an opportunity for the state to uh provide grants for um historical markers and uh I suggested that to Elizabeth and somehow or other she sort of stuck me with the job at least for the moment. It
wasn't my plan but um I do think that um Princeton would benefit uh tremendously. We have a battlefield that a lot of visitors don't know uh either exists or don't know where it is and that it would be helpful
to have a marker as you enter Princeton on Quaker Road for instance. Uh it would help to have a marker that points out that the Continental Army traveled along Quaker Road and then up the back road and engaged in a major battle of Princeton.
And likewise, it would be helpful to have a marker somewhere along Carnegie Lake um along route uh route 27 north along the area where there's that boat dock. Um it would be handy to have a
sign there uh to say that that was uh where the uh Continental Army exited from Princeton after uh being victorious in the Battle of Princeton and then moved up to Kingston uh where they paused to decide whether or not they
should go to Morristown or whether they should go to New Brunswick to see if they could grab the Sterling payroll that was uh being guarded there in New Brunswick. and they opted uh after some discussion and decided that they were way too worn out and they would need to
go to Morristown and have to forego that opportunity. Now, what I just said are a lot of words and we only are allowed 605 characters, not words, but characters. So, uh, what you just received is my first cut of what could be on the sign
on both signs, and it's way too much. Um, in the middle of the, um, the large thing going to Princeton, there's a 605 there, and that is my rough count as to where I had to stop if I was really going to stop at 65 characters. So
clearly there needs to be some editing, but I think it's always easier to edit once you've gotten the major message uh down and then we can go from there. So I hope you all will think about that um if you decide you want to go forward with this. Now um the benefits of this is
that um it will be financed by the state. It will be uh supervised by the state. that is all of the uh criteria for locating it and and how it works and everything will be under the supervision of the state so we won't have to figure
that out for ourselves. Uh and those are the benefits. Um and also this may or may not be a benefit but it's a requirement. It has to be on publicly owned property. So that's a little bit of a parenthetical that we need to get into. But I think that
Princeton would just benefit enormously and the Princeton battlefield to have these two signs. If you only get one of them, that would be better than nothing. Um, and the program will be continuing by the state after uh October, which is
the deadline for this, but no financing. It'll just be that the state is willing to help with criteria, but no money. If we raised money on our own, we could do something with that. So the state is not saying we can't raise money on our own
and and do our own thing, but basically if they want if we want money for the 250th, this is it. And there isn't too much happening on the 250th. I think it would be a wonderful thing for Princeton have something to celebrate uh and have some kind of maybe an unveiling or
something like that. Um, and we could also, I'm getting a little carried away, but we could also have something like an acrylic postal box uh near the um the marker which could have additional information on a little flyer. So, all
that is wonderful stuff to the state um as long as we meet the basic criteria. The basic criteria is that we have uh a message on the American Revolution. That's an important message to uh to give. we fit it into 605 characters uh
and that it be located on public property and that I think is the basic criteria. So as far as uh the Battle of Princeton and how important it is. I mean we we just kill that back that criteria that we have a very important message. I
don't see any problem with that and I don't see any problem with giving enough verification so we can make it quick and simple. They're looking for all kinds of um archival information and you know I mean you can really go to town with this and if you have a a sign uh which is
little known about then you might need to have that kind of verification. We don't need that. All we need to do is say a few things about how famous this location is and how it's documented and all that sort of thing and the artifacts. So um what I given you is the
second thing is the is my first cut of the application. The application is online. Um, and you're supposed to be able to fill it out and save it as you go and then submit when you're all done. Of course, as my luck would have it, when I tried
to save it, it was just not working. So, um, I made my own copy of it and decided I would just fill it out on my own. And when I finally get it all figured out, then I can put it into their submit, uh, software. Uh, but I I'm not going to
bother with that until that point. So, the questions are pretty straightforward. Um, there's some things about uh significance and a lot of things about who's who and all that sort of thing. Um, the town would have to um
to okay it. Um, and let me talk about the two sites that I'm suggesting and these are just suggestions. I'm I'm perfectly open to new and better ideas. Uh my first idea was to have um a sign actually in West Windsor. So as you uh
left West Windsor on um uh on the road um yeah on um no on on um road Quaker Road, sorry. On Quaker Road. uh
you know, if you saw a sign in the neighborhood of on the interchange with Route One, uh that would be kind of a thrill to get you to go on into Princeton along Quaker Road and see the battlefield. And I actually discussed that idea with the um president of the
historical society in West Windsor and he was interested. Uh but finding the right site is very difficult because um there are business activities along Quaker Road and there really are no publicly owned sites that are just
raring to step up and be counted on this. Uh, one idea I had was that, you know, we had that new warehouse complex going in and if we could persuade them to give us a little postage stamp park, maybe we could have um a sidewalk going
in along Quaker Road and um you would have to cross Route One, of course, to get to Princeton, but it would be a way of getting a a walking opportunity and a a you know, a bench or something for people to sit on and contemplate the American Revolution. So, I think it would be pretty cool, but um that
warehouse project doesn't seem quite ready to go and to negotiate something with them might be too complex. So, it was just an idea. So, then I began to move in my mind closer into town on Quaker Road uh in what where is publicly
owned property? Well, as you know, you cross the canal which is publicly owned and but it wasn't there at the time of the American Revolution. But um as you um wind through there um and go by the entrance to the toe path
uh that would be maybe a good place for a sign that that place that parking lot is already owned by the state and uh so maybe that would be a good place. So um there and there's parking there and then people could also go to the toe path if
they wanted to or whatever they wanted to do. But uh and even that that area around the parking lot could be um improved in some way with some landscaping and that kind of thing. So that would be my suggestion for going into town. Um there really isn't any
public property between that location and and the back road that I can think of. Um, and there's the of course the historical society's histo uh historic location and that sort of thing, but we're talking about publicly owned property. So, on the other side of the
coin, uh, for leaving Princeton and heading towards Kingston, uh, that's a little more complicated because there is no public property that I'm aware of right along Route 27. So, but there is the boat landing area that's owned by the university, I believe. So, we'd have to have some kind
of an arrangement with them to buy a postage stamp for um the sign unless the ride ofway is large enough so that the state historical commission would give us credit that the right of way is publicly owned and therefore would
fulfill that criteria. The the one positive thing about this is that the historical commission seems very flexible. They're interested in helping. They're not, this is not a trick grant and and they're interested. I think they're honestly interested in people
such as us submitting. I think we have a tremendous story. Um, and they're willing to help us in any way. There's several maps you have to put in. So, we have to have a way to figuring out how how to do the maps. Um, and if things
change after we are awarded the grant that that's okay. they will be flexible. So if it turns out that the site that we suggest uh that somebody has a better idea, uh they're okay. That can be changed. We're not locked in to a
certain thing. But they would like to know basically what our narrative what the narrative is that we have in mind. And they would like to know that we we have located a site that's on public property. Those are the two criteria. And other than that, um I think they
would be very happy to work with us. Thank you. I I you're aware of the work that the American Battlefield Trust is doing for the uh preparation of the battlefield and all that. They're doing a whole bunch of signage work there.
This would not this would not be for the battlefield. This would be an addition, right? You know, leading you there as a as a as a public uh state marker. Mhm. And uh there is a marker um a state parks marker that's pretty close to the
battlefield. Yeah. Um I would think that this should be as far away from the battlefield as we could get it and still meet all the criteria because the idea is to interest people who are driving by either driving by once and looking for things to go to
see or maybe they drive by every day and never have stopped there before. But the sign finally gets them to begin to focus on, well, what is this all about, right? But I mean, if somebody else has it covered, um I heard that um Roger Williams of the Battlefield Society um
was looking at um a location on Quaker Road uh in going out of town, not towards town. My understanding, I haven't discussed it with them at all. First of all, I think that you all have to decide you want to go further uh and that you
do have a message that you want to use um and then you know figure out if there's too much competition. But this shouldn't have anything to do with um what the trust is doing with ABP uh and all that signage. This is uh totally separate. Um and it's a state
marker. So we don't have any um flexibility in what the marker looks like. It's a standard state marker. Got it. Got it. All right. Well, thank you, Kip. We also have um so stick around because we also have Anthony Sataro and
Doug Bootton. Um and they're going to give a small presentation, I think. So, um please come on up and grab a microphone. And hello. Hello. Thank you. Hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.
Yeah. Wow. That is so great. Thank you. So, if you can give me an idea at some point whether you're interested. Um the the deadline is October 7th, I believe it is. We've missed the intermediate deadlines, but we are allowed to miss
them and still hit the October 7th deadline. And that's the drop deadline. Well, I think I think so. Are other commission members uh interested in having Kip apply for state signs
for I mean I I'll need participation because the narrative has to be something that people agree by consensus is what everybody wants to say and that could be a real headache. But um I think that uh
Robert Fonzen Bush and Elrich and and some others um you know should be involved in the discussion about what the sign actually says. I'm not the the final I just did a you know an initial draft. Would the commission or the m municipality be the applicant then? I
was on the commission 50 years ago for the bsentennial and I don't I don't I don't choose to be on one this run. Get back to me another 50. All right. It could be very informal in terms of just giving me some feedback on
I mean I think we'll probably just do this by email or something. Yeah. because I don't I don't think there'd be any I mean I think um Elizabeth would the um administration
like the the mayor and stuff they need to see this yes yeah so we wouldn't be able to really say for them they would be the deciding vote but you know they are encouraged because um there's a lot of to tour tourism
associated with this um quincentennial And I think that HPC should do something and but I'm going to ask Anthony to talk about um how this deadline extends
beyond next year. Correct. Yes. Um I don't know specific for the sign marker. Um hello, I'm Anthony. Hi Sataro. Uh this is my partner Douglas Booten. Um we're with Sataro House. I
think what you're doing is great. By the way, we have those uh historic markers. We're in Mammoth County. Um and we have those all along Kings Highway, all along different sites and they are in that public right of way. So, I guess that's how they ended up doing them. But
they're great because a lot of times it's just a farm and it's an empty field and it's the British retreated and this is where they slept for camped for 13 days. And I'm a big I'm on the historic preservation in Redbank and I'm a big
history person as well. So I actually talk to the homeowners and you hear the stories and these are not these are private homes. They're not like historic. They have historic markers on them but they're not museums. They're not whatever. They're just, you know, houses and usually the people that live there are all about
that. You usually don't buy that house unless you are obsessed with that right history. So just approaching the homeowner, you might get uh feedback. But uh so the reason why we're here and what you're doing is great. Um you'll see there's a couple different things
that um we left up there. Our uh organization I reached out to Elizabeth um who invited us here. We worked with the New Jersey Historic Preservation Trust um for the conference that we just did back in June and we were one of the
presenters about immersive experiences. Um so you can take a thing like a marker and have this information um and the the boxes next to them are great. Um but there's other ways that you can make them viewable on people's
phone, right? And the phone is something that everybody has with them. So you can scan and we have an app that we've developed that there's three different ways that we work and we look at things. There's AR which is where stuff will pop up on your phone.
There's yeah in the real world and you're peering through your phone and seeing it in front of you. You could screenshot it, take a picture and you're next to whatever object or president or um a building's not there and you could see what it will look like if it if it used to be there. uh VR, which is where
you would have to be stationary somewhere and have a headset on, and then just traditional cinematics. So, you mentioned the battle of Princeton. We've been working on the battle of Mammoth because that's the battle by us, right? Um where you can have a QR, it
doesn't even need to be a QR code, just a picture or whatever you Yeah. geo tag to a specific location or marker or even along on that same pole or that image itself, you know, put your phone up to that image with the camera open and see
what happens and a cinematic pops up or something of the battle or of, you know, something specific um from Thomas Clark house or, you know, whatever. So, those are different things um that we do at the Burlington County
Prison Museum. um was where the uh historic uh conference was this past year. We recreated an an inmate. So the other thing that we do is we recreate historic characters and they are then powered by AI either scripted or
unscripted where it's open and they're fed information as to know who they are um and people can interact and have conversations with them. So for the uh conference, we recreated an inmate and
then they put him in the actual cell that he used to uh that he was in and you could go in and talk to him and ask him questions about the case and why he was in there and what transpired and how he was treated and about the prison and
different things. So, um, as you'll see with the the app in the AR portion, which is what we're finding, a lot of people are either doing the simple installation like just a a video or an LED wall, no matter what, you know, size
it is, or they're going to the AR because they're realizing that people have this uh on their phone accessible. Wow. One more comment. Sorry. So, an Anthony, let me ask you something. Yeah.
Okay. So, you know, the one thing that we're always interested in is getting um more people and people of youth more interested in history. So, somehow it seems like this more advanced, more animated technology will be something
that would kind of capture their interest. Do you find that to be case? Yeah. Is that Go ahead. You two things. Okay. So, yes, as I mentioned to Elizabeth, um we're working right now with Mammoth County on a video game trailer. Um it's actually a
physical trailer with the reclamation center so that kids can learn about recycling and learn about what happens to their trash when it goes to the recycle. And it's all Yeah, it's all customdeveloped. It's like six or seven interactive games and they are all different kinds of mediums either, you
know, um AR, VR, traditional video games. So there's we build everything on a platform um using a video game engine. So when we build something as a cinematic, we're also building it as a video game, also
building it as it's AR. So you can do a bunch of different things to it. So, what Elizabeth was alluding to that I one of the we're kind of becoming a mouthpiece for the New Jersey Historic Preservation Trust in letting people know these funds for the celebration for
250 are not just for the one year. They know that no one's figured anything out yet and there's no way you're going to get your act together by next year and have a product that you're going to be proud of, right? So, what you can do is they're doing this for seven years. It's
the entire length of the war that they are going to be issuing grants. Um, and New Jersey Historic Preservation Trust, I think they're up to 75,000 um, on their grants. You can come up with projects. So, you could tar it and
phase it and say, "This year we're doing this." So, when we're talking to people, we're telling them, come up with your vision. Figure out the vision. What's the goal? and work backwards through, you know, what kind of budget and how
you can tier this through fundraising or grants or whatever it is. And then, yeah, it's all modular the way we do it. So, you can stack things on top of each other where okay, we start out with just a cinematic of a battle of Princeton and then that becomes an AR experience and
that becomes a VR experience. So, you can they're all interacted inter together. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, Doug. I'll Doug's Doug's the brains. So, um besides, um us have you the people I think of are like the people
who run Morvin and the people who run like the Clark house at the battlefield. Well, the American Battlefield Trust is kind of taking over that. And then um I don't know if the municipality
is like doing any kind of designated celebration here at the municipal building. Leighton, do you know if there's anything that the the mayor and council are looking at at this point? I I know that there is ongoing
discussion about the 250th, but I do not believe it's central necessarily to the municipality, but to other uh not for profits and other entities around town that are getting involved. Uh but I I'll
certainly get back to you, but I'm sure that we are going to participate in some way. But but I know that Morvin, the Princeton um historical society and others right now are are making the major plans, right? Yeah. Kim.
Yeah. Dan Benson Dan Benson was just telling me that uh the county is planning a website. They're going to have it up in a week or two. And the idea of it is a little bit like Wikipedia where people add to the website. So it's not a consultant
created website. It's a it well I mean somebody creates a framework and then hopefully members of the community will be contributing material to that website. So that's I guess the county's biggest idea that they are implementing.
Right. Yeah. Alri years ago when when um the historical society moved out to the updikeke farm um I had this notion then and and I'm not about to do it but it seemed like it
might be something you should consider. The barn the the the barn is was not there in in the 1770s, but it faces south and the barn doors
open face directly on the route that Washington and his troops made at dawn on the 3rd of of January. And it always seemed to me like the opportunity was there to for people to come into it and
just see the barn and all of a sudden realize that looking through the door, you you saw something and you realize that that was the approach. And because it's within walking distance of the battlefield where I assume there's going to be a reenactment, it seemed like it
would be a an introduction to the day and it would be at like 6:00 in the morning. That's cool. We were just talking about that on the way in of like the army kind of waiting till the light was just right to attack as the sun would come up. But take a look because the opportunity
is I mean absolutely. It's a good spot. Yeah, I think one of the other things I've heard about um the Battlefield Trust doing is that they're expressing the viewpoint of the battle from different
perspective groups. So like I'm involved with the Quaker meeting and so the Quakers had one view and you know if you were um just a a local farmer you might have one view. If you're a woman you might have a different view. you know,
like so I'm it's interesting to hear what different the different perspectives are. We were down what was the museum we were down uh armed forces heritage. Yeah. Yeah. The armed forces heritage uh museum. We were down there in Burlington uh working
with them as well and got they have really cool displays out of they have someone local that is somehow related to somebody that made like authentic uniforms and different things. So they
have them up and you can see like what the field you know military the people that were just farmers would have been wearing and you could touch that stuff. And so we get really into when we're recreating something like what were they wearing? Try to be as accurate as possible, right? And also one of the benefits of
us developing everything in a game engine, it's all in 3D. So we have digital cameras and you can look at it from any perspective. So as we're recreating the Battle of Mammoth, there's all this animation going on and there's a battle happening and you can just fly around it digitally and look at it from literally any perspective.
Oh, very cool. Well, that's really interesting stuff. So, um, hopefully we'll continue this conversation. We have a few more months to go and yes, thank you. And like I said, every everyone's in the same boat you are
where it's like, oh my gosh, it's next year, you know, and we haven't planned anything. So, that's why they're doing this. They're staging it. You're not alone. Mammoth is very there's a whole Mammoth 250 website. They are very at the forefront obviously because of Battle Mammoth, I think. Um, so if you
are looking for someone that's kind of ahead of people, they're really pushing it. So, but we're here as a resource as well if you guys just want to reach out to us and talk and ask questions, we're happy to help. Yep. Okay. So, like I know we have a very
active sustainability group in town. So, if they wanted to do games on sustainability Sure. Yeah. Yeah. you know, that would be an idea because there's a lot of interest in in getting We do all sorts of it's not just, you know, one we do history and love
history, but obviously we do anything educational, immersive, interactive, we do that's to your point, it's what I wanted to say earlier is we're trying to gamify learning to reach the younger generation on platforms and mediums that they they
are on now. Right. Right. Yeah. So that's Yeah. Yeah. Uh that trailer will be in service probably in about a month and a half. So you'll be able to see it. Great. Yeah. I think Mammoth County they'll have like a demo day probably for other counties to come and see it and
use it. Yeah. They're very proud of it as we are as well. It's a great idea. It's a great idea. Thank you. All right. Are there any other questions? If not, I might wind down our meeting now. Yes. I thank you all for staying. Like I
said, I'm on a board like this and I I understand. You guys have a business card. Thank you so much. And I saw your website. It's awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Is there uh anything else, Elizabeth? I think that's it. I think that the
commission should think about if there's something that they do want to get involved in for the quincentennial. I I I saw an article in the paper that listed HBC's agenda and said, "Oh, look, HBC is looking at the quincentennial."
And I was like, "Uhoh." Right. We're just doing what we can. All right. So, is there a motion to adjourn? Okay. And a second. All right. Thank you everybody for coming. Thank you.
Okay. Yeah, if there's really any interest in this stuff, um, you know, I used to run the art gallery at TCNA and TCNA has an interactive multimedia department. Um and I actually co-taught
a couple of courses on interactive exhibition.