There we go. You shaking your head? And I think we heard recorded in progress. >> Yep. >> Okay. All right. Good afternoon, everybody. This is a regular monthly meeting of the Princeton Historic Preservation
Commission being held virtually on this day, which is Tuesday, May 26, 2026 at 5:00 p.m. We are not in any of those places. Um pursuant to um section 13 of the open
public meetings act, adequate um notice and time and place of this meeting has been uh noticed by transmitting a copy of the agenda to Princeton packet town topics, the times of Trenton, by filing a copy with the clerk of
Princeton, posting on the municipal website in their agenda center, and by posting on the official bulletin board in the Princeton municipal complex at 400 Witherspoon Street in Princeton. Sarah, do you want to do the uh roll call?
>> Absolutely. Uh Mr. Shadskin >> here. >> Miss Howard >> here. >> Miss Capazolei >> here. >> Miss Freriedman >> here.
>> Miss Croll here. >> Miss Kabnikova >> here. Uh, Miss Satderfield is joining later but is currently absent. And chair sh >> I am here. >> We have quorum.
>> Thank you very much. Um, Sarah, do we have any announcements to start with? >> Not currently outside of the uh upcoming historic preservation conference on June 17th and 18th, the statewide conference. Please register if you are interested.
So, who's registered? I'm registered for uh just one day, the second day. >> I'm registered for one day as well. >> Yep. Me, too. >> Me, too. >> Second day. >> Okay. Oh, hi lady. >> Me, too.
New hat. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Well, let's let's get to business. Uh, we have some minutes to approve. I saw Roger's corrections earlier. They look great. I um wish I was that good at editor. Um do we have any other comments
that people want to make or corrections or suggestions? >> Um I'll move to approve the minutes. >> Thank you. >> As corrected. >> As corrected. Very good. A second. >> Second. Is >> that recall roll call Sarah?
>> Yes. >> Okay. >> Mr. Shatskin. >> Yes. Miss Howard, >> yes. >> Miss Capazolei, >> yes. >> Miss Freriedman, >> yes. >> Miss Kroll, >> yes.
>> Miss Kosvnikova, >> yes. >> Chair Sher, >> yes. >> Minutes have passed. Or that is >> very good. All right. So, we move on to some uh resolutions which were previously distributed. Uh the first one
we wanted um to review or to uh what exactly are we doing? We've already passed a resolution on these. We're now saying that the resolution as written is correct or >> we're memorializing the resolution for
nine for uh Yeah. >> All right. So the first one was that project at nine Mercer Street which was replacement of um 11 windows I believe. >> That's our only one for that. >> Yep. All right. Um, so again, a roll call
vote. >> Uh, motion >> motion >> first. >> I'll move it. >> I heard Emily first and seconded. >> Roger said it better. Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Mr. Shadskin. >> Yes. >> Miss Howard? >> Yes. Miss Capazolei, >> yes. >> Miss Freriedman, >> yes. >> Miss Kroll, >> yes. >> Miss Kosnikova, >> yes.
>> Chair Sher, >> yes. >> The resolution is memorialized. >> Okay, let's get on to our applications tonight. Um so the first one is uh having to do with
405 Basin Street which is installation of solar panels as we all saw in our package. Um do we uh whoever is in charge of this want to bring the applicant uh into the meeting virtually?
I do that. >> Hello, Emit. Uh, >> hello. >> Who else is presenting for this application? >> I actually don't know. I I'm the owner. So, but there should be somebody from
the company Venture Solar. I have a phone number on here who I don't know who that is for. >> There's an Alexander Yakiri. Is that >> Yes. And there should be someone from solar. I don't know what sar technical is.
Whoever else is representing the applicant, can you please uh raise your hand? No one from Metro Solar. >> Could we come back later? Yeah, I'm sure we can come back later. Okay, thank you. >> Okay, I'm just going to put you back as
a attendee. >> Actually, I don't. No, thank you, Ian. >> So, we're going to move on to the application for 188 194 or actually 190 192 Nassau Street. the larger number was the name of the LLC that owns it and
it's replacement of slate shingle roof with Da Vinci synthetic slate. Um it's in the central historic district and you want to bring them into the meeting please? >> Yes. Good evening, Andrew. Whoa, I'm getting an echo. My apologies.
Uh, Andrew Shrager, attorney for 188-194 LLC. Are there other people with you or is it just you presenting sir? >> That's me tonight, sir. >> Okay. I'm having a little trouble hearing >> the sound. Yeah, it's very
>> I'm getting an echo. >> There's actually two uh listed in the attendees. So, I don't know, maybe you have to hang up on one or close out of one. >> Yes. >> That could be why. >> Let me see if I can
All right, try now. >> How How are we doing now? >> Uh, much better. >> Ah, yeah. I must have hit it twice. I apologize. >> No worries. >> Wait. >> So, Lisa, do you want to um
>> I I won't be swearing in Mr. Shagger since he's the attorney of record. >> Oh, right. I'm I'm sorry. I forgot that detail. That's okay. >> Nice thing. All right. So, Mr. Sher, what we do is we usually have the applicant present um the project uh kind of in summary terms
and then um we're going to ask our uh historic preservation officer Sarah Quinnland to um give us some of the highlights of of the report she's written and the concerns we should be thinking about and then the commission members will discuss it. So, uh you're
ready to go. We're ready. >> Yeah, it's this is a simple uh application. We are trying to replace the roofs uh on both 190 and 192. These built these roofs are over 40 years old. Um the valleys are deteriorating.
There's rusting and leaks. These the roof tile that is selected. Um, the Dainci synthetic slate will match the roof on 188 Nassau Street, which was done, I believe, in March of 2025 and
approved by this commission in March in around that time. Um, as I said, these these this these roofs are over 40 years old um and in in in significant state of disrepair and need to be replaced.
Okay, >> I think you've seen the pictures. Um, you obviously have the report of of your of your uh of Miss Quinland. Um, seems to be a straightforward application in this regard. >> Okay. And I understand that some
commission members went in to see the actual materials at um the office um in the past several days. So, at least some of us are familiar with them. Because this is the same seal roof tiles that is used as I said on by 188 and
they will match. >> Correct. >> Is there anything else we should know about the project? >> Uh no. >> All right. >> Sarah, do you want to give us kind of um your take and review?
We lost the spirit. May I ask a question while we're waiting? Um, 192 is currently asphalt shingles the roof. No. Am I building too far over?
>> Don't know. >> I think it's slate. >> Slate. I think it's slate. >> I think it's slate. Um I looked at it yesterday. >> Um and so I looked at the building that's next to it that was done in 2025 uh versus this one um on the application
just kind of to see. But you know 2025 is a little bit recent so I can't really tell how it's aging. So one thing that I noticed which was just really just an observation is that if you look at the Dainci product versus like slate um so Da Vinci product does not have any
variation in color. So it's like it's all completely uniform versus natural slate is going to have some color variation. So that's you you don't see that in the Dinci product. So that's that's the only comment I have. Uh >> there's Sarah's report. Sorry that guys.
Um it's my staff report here sharing my screen. Um as we discussed this is in the central historic district. It is a type 2 district so it's subject to preservation plan review for any changes visible from the public right ofway.
Um this built so there are two buildings sort of in question here. It is 190 and 192 Nassau. Um, initially 190 and 192 Nassau was a duplex house that had mirrored bay
windows and a shared porch. Um, that changed over time with uh the movement of the brick building at 192 Nassau being moved in front of the original 192 uh post 1940. So there have been changes
in the massing of this of these buildings, but the setback for the original 190 to 192 Nassau is still intact. Of the three buildings, 190 seems to be the most with historic integrity. It still retains the slate
roof. Um, let me get back up to my notes actually. Uh this block of Nassau Street underwent a number of changes from the mid to late 20th century with the alteration of historic houses for retail use, the construction of small retail buildings
in front of historic houses as well as the demolition of historic houses and subsequent construction of larger commercial properties. Although the former massing of 190 to 192 Street has changed with the addition of the two-story brick building and the loss of the central porch, 190 Nassau still
retains its residential setback and appears to appears to retain a higher level of material integrity. The proposed roof shingles are not of inkind materials and therefore this constitutes a change in material to an architectural feature visible from the public right ofway. This is only in reference to 190
NASA. 192 NASA. The brick building is currently clad in asphalt shingles. Uh but 190 NASA would be a change of material from the slate. So I have in my comments recommendations that staff finds the proposed project generally
retains the historic building's use uh building's historic use, features, and spatial relationships as well as the overall historic character of the property that qualifies it as a contributing resource to the central historic district. Staff recommends that the commission consider the follow while conducting their review. Whether the
proposed project meets the secretary of the interior standards for the treatment of historic properties, whether proposed project is appropriate to and compatible with the existing structures and landscape of the central historic district. Whether proposed project would adversely affect the ambiance, character, and appearance of the central historic district. Whether the proposed
project preserves or enhances the historic architectural value and character of the structure. whether the proposed project would adversely affect the exterior architectural features and setting of the structure as well to historic and architectural character and whether the installation of Da Vinci's
synthetic slate roof shingles on 190 Nassau meets the conditions of a substitute material that matches the same shape and size of the original roofing shingles as outlined in our ordinance 10B 386 3B or I guess five. Um
I do also have the samples here of the Da Vinci slate. >> We can't see that Sarah if um >> I am sharing my screen is up there. Thank you. Yeah.
Yeah. So as Maria said there there's no variation in the color and Is there a color choice on these? Also, there's a a green and a gray, I think. And there's a a number of colors.
There's a couple of different shades of gray. There are also some browns I've seen. I don't know how much variation you get in the individual shingle like we would see on the natural shingle that gets with age. Yeah, it doesn't look like there's much of any variation.
>> What color they're choosing? >> It's that it's the castle gray is what they're choosing >> which is existing on 188. >> Got it. >> Uh which that building was also built in the 80s.
something I wanted to bring up and I don't know whether this is an appropriate moment or not because this is we have another project under consideration later on also with the Dainci the replacement with the Da Vinci um uh tiles. I just sort of wondered because I feel like you know maybe those
are really quite connected. Um, so that that's a house on Prospect, uh, one of the eating clubs on on Prospect. And I just wonder because, you know, like yesterday I walked down Prospect and I think I think most of the um buildings
there actually have the SL triangles and a lot of them sort of look not very new. Let me put it this way. And I just wonder whether we're going to have like a lot of whether this is coming our way whether we will have like this total replacements by the um synthetic product
you know on Prospect Avenue in the future as well. So I just wanted to bring that up as well because you know we have this 1919 but then we also um this product is also proposed for Prospect as well and I think most of the eating clubs on Prospect actually have
uh slight shingles currently. Do we know how old the slates are on um 190? >> It's over 40 years old. >> Slates should last longer than that. I think
>> uh Sarah, had you finished your report? Yes. >> Okay. So, commission members, we're starting with the questions. Uh, thank you. Um, remember I can't see you guys that well, so I can't tell when if one of you has a has a question or a thought
you want to bring up. So, um, please just ring in or even comment that you don't have any questions right now. That would be helpful. I think that, um, Maria's question is is spot on and I have to actually think about Clifford's research. Are you are are the um eating
clubs kind of all um maturing at about the same rate, same time of construction, or are they vastly different? But you're right, we could have a lot of these questions and it could could change the the look of that area. But that's for the conversation later. But I um back to this property.
Um I think one of the questions somebody was asking, but I'm not quite sure I understood it correctly. Is there and and I don't know the product. So it um is there ability to have mixed Dainci slates to give a a
look like some of the buildings that are very where the slate variation happens? Is there ability to mix them or or not? I don't I don't know the answer to that. >> Roger, you're muted. Sorry. Uh their literature claims that
there's variation in the color and it's hard to see in a small sample. Uh but you know, I assume it's like processed hardwoods. The patterns repeat after a limited amount of time. Um
it's it's not bad. In this case, we're we're gaining one building. One building would go from asphalt to uh Da Vinci and the other would go from slate to the Vinci. So, I'm not sure how that sits with
people. >> Mhm. >> What is the expected duration on the Da Vinci tiles? >> Forever. forever. >> Is it is it like what's what's the warranty on on the Da Vinci tiles?
I mean, there has to be some like I know I looked at their website, but I don't recall. Um, >> yeah, plastics can disintegrate. Um, there's there's I mean, yeah, they they can do all sorts of things with ultraviolet light, with
all sorts of conditions. Um, and this may be something we we learn at some more of the conferences we attend, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately is the replacement materials that
are coming up. um are there um kind of case histories of some of the materials or are there um certainly I'm sure that the product manufacturers and any representatives they might have at a conference would would maintain that
thing is going to be perfect forever but um even just looking at the chemistry or the manufacturer would probably tell us something if you have that knowledge and I don't I know there are people that can read that kind of stuff and say, "Oh, yeah, that's going to be susceptible to >> Mhm.
>> to u fading or whatever." But we we don't have that background. Um so, you know, it's like all decisions are hard, >> right? So, it seems that, you know, from their website is that they have a 10year
material warranty, I think. So that's against manufacturing defects, but then supposedly it's about a 50-year warranty period. I mean, I don't know how exact that is or how correct that is, >> right?
>> So, well, when was it? Do we know when it was invented? When it was first I mean it may not have been 50 years. >> Yeah. um >> kind of an academic question. I would be
very interested to know if there are uh similar to testing labs for strength of materials. Is there any kind of testing lab that um you know you you you watch a television commercial for a car that's been through a a storm or a car wash or many many miles and they've simulated or
calculated what the what the performance should be at that point. I don't know if they have that for these materials yet or any kind of testing like that, but um it'd be something interesting for us all to learn so that we get some of these products before us. I know we're going to be discussing probably next month
another um substitute material for sighting and um Sarah and I have been trying to to quiz the at least the literature to find out what we can about its durability. So here we go. We got the same kind of situation.
>> Yeah. So it's I mean so it it seems like you know um the first roof presumably was in installed around 2001 2002. So I mean nothing has lasted 50 years yet so we don't know. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Right.
>> But slate usually lasts about a hundred years. >> Um >> that's what I'm confused on here. >> Yeah. I mean maybe 80 90. We had a slate group that lasted about 90 years.
Well, and a lot of times with a slate roof, uh, you know, repairs happen along the way. So, I don't know if this roof has had repairs and they failed or
what's the problem? >> Do you do you might you know that Mr. trigger or >> I know that um there have been a lot of I don't know if you have the the the pictures in front of you. There's some um window gables and some some valleys
and that's where there's a significant amount of leakage around those uh valleys and around the the window gables. Um that's where the failing is is is most significant. Um, and a lot of significant rust on the
um I don't know if you have the the there's a there a picture um look at the you know there's four window gables um that are uh there there's two there's
two um chimney stacks on the roof and it's around those valleys and things that it that it's the most problematic. Um there's some t if you look at the pictures there's also some slate tiles that appear to be missing
um over to the you twist that picture well it's over over to the left um um along the edge there's some it's hard to it's hard to see but there's some some appear to be some missing there the
valleys between uh behind this what's supposed to be a um where the two buildings come together is is what I understand to be the most problematic part where the valleys come together and there's a lot of um uh leakage there because there's some
breakage there's uh that's where the ice forms and is and is and and it causes causes problems. Again, this is to match the building that is to the left of this one at 180,
which is that building right there. Thank you for whoever did that. >> It's the same tile. Um, >> but 190 is currently asphalt or or is >> asphalt? Yes, the other one's asphalt. You can't see it from here, but >> No, but the one we're looking >> That one That one right there
>> is asphalt. The one we're looking at was slate. >> Correct. >> Okay. all three of these buildings would m would end up matching. So, I I I guess it I I'm not sure why
one would not simply repair the original slate and then, you know, on the asphalt roof, perhaps use the synthetic, but I I
>> the idea is that it would all match. The slate may not match what we can get in the synthetic. >> Yeah. And the slate is is much more difficult to maintain and it's much more difficult to install.
>> Well, but it just um Charlotte, you were you were proposing repairing the slate, >> right? >> Not not a complete completely new slate route. >> Oh, there's no reason to me. There doesn't seem to be a reason
to tear off all the slate and put on new synthetic material when you could repair that and then do uh you know do the synthetic slate on the asphalt on the asphalt roof. I I
don't see the necessity of matching but perhaps someone thinks differently. What do you all think? >> I don't think it needs to match. I mean, the whole point of that is that there's some variation and that's fine.
>> Mhm. >> Yeah, I agree. I don't I don't see uh the construction dates are so different that Yeah. I don't I don't know why you
would need to match them. And I think it would be preferable to to keep the slate if possible. >> I mean, it's quite quite visually apparent, right? It's a one-story building. It's I mean,
>> the roof is is quite visible. >> Rita, have you um offered some thoughts? Well, I I mean I think I agree with what the others have said. The uh roof is about half the um you know the fasia of the of the building and I don't see a reason for
replacing it. I think it could be repaired and and I think one of the questions we asked was has it been repaired before? But I don't remember getting an answer to that. Yes, a number of times.
But isn't isn't that kind of the bargain with a historic building that I mean >> but at some point I mean a historic building loses its use if if if it can't be if it
can't be repaired cost effectively and and and efficiently. I mean, I don't it's it's I obviously I'm a lawyer. I don't know how to how to repair the the the the valleys and the the areas that are up against those windows or the
valley between the two things. If you have to remove flashing that goes underneath the slate and you have to rip up all the slate, you're you're basically starting over. >> Um >> I think there I mean there are a number of slate roofs in Princeton that have been repaired Yeah.
>> over decades. I don't, you know, I think it it's um >> how about while we all contemplate that for a minute, we see if there's any members of the audience that want to um comment.
>> I have one hand raised. Uh Dominic, I am going to move you up to a panelist so you can Dom stomach. Sorry, I'm muted. Um, how are you guys? Um, my name's Dominic
Varela with ACG roofing and sheet metal. We're the contractor on 33 Prospect that's up. Um, and we've been doing like the synthetic slate and for a while. So, I was like I just had my hand raised to answer a couple questions. But while I
was there, I was on Google Earth and the the roof at 188 or no, 190 is the one that's not done from the street view. Looks to be 70 years old. It's a PAL. It's a
Pennsylvania black slate roof that has a lot of brown and discoloration that's showing that is far older than 40 years. Um, that's my two cents. Um, but the uh
um I forget who looked it up, but the 50-year warranty is um what they go with the 10-year contractor thing is is just, you know, to shorten the lifespan of the synthetic manufacturers's warranty. Um,
we've been installing them since like 2011. And the early years of them of those being manufactured, there were the issues that I remember were buckling and curling like you would expect a plastic
would in the um in the sun. But Da Vinci, what we're proposing and what 190 to 92 Nazol is proposing has like eliminated that issue. Um,
and I believe I forget whether it was David or Roger who had a question about variations um, >> in color. >> It's hard to say. I mean, you can always get like you can always buy two different colors, right? Um, if you buy
a gray and a black, they they do have a peppered pattern um that looks more natural. So, I mean, there's it's worth looking into. I was actually
surprised that this is the first time that you guys were discussing this because I was coming on to ask what products you had approved um in the synthetic realm because most historicals have it. Not that you know, not that you
would operate under theirs, but the um it's just becoming more and more popular like you guys said. So, you know, I'm not going to you guys have to do your own thing with your bylaws and your your handbooks and everything. Um, but that was just my two cents on the
conversation you guys were having. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Dominic. >> All right. Uh, anybody have a feeling what we should what kind of motion we should propose where we want to take this?
I think we should move to to repair the slate on the one the original slate on 190 and to replace the asphalt with synthetic slate on 192. Anybody?
Uh, >> that sounds reasonable. >> Is that a motion? >> Quick question for Sarah with the if if there's a repair to 190, would would the applicant have to
come back to the HPC? I think in the past we've done it um as a modification that they'd have to update their application and then they'd get the once the resolution is memorialized they'd get that the condition of of approval in
the resolution is that they modify the application to repair the slate rather than replace it >> and they wouldn't have to come before the HBC again. It would just be okay. >> Yeah. If if they need that condition. Gotcha.
Back to Emily's question, is that actually being proposed um uh what Charlotte said, is that being proposed as a as a uh resolution? >> As a motion >> as a motion >> as a motion for a resolution. >> Thank you.
>> In other words, is there a second to that or do we want to keep discussing? >> I'll second it. Okay, this is a motion to modify the preservation plan as a condition of approval to repair the slate on 190 and to replace the slate
with Da Vinci synthetic as proposed on 192 Nassau. Uh, roll call vote. Mr. Shatskin. >> Uh, yes. Miss Howard, >> yes. >> Miss Capazolei, >> yes.
>> Miss Freriedman, >> yes. >> Miss Croll, >> yes. >> Miss Kosvnikova, >> yes. >> Sher, >> yes. >> It is passed as modified with conditions.
>> All right. Just as a point of information, I think we did approve the Da Vinci tile on at least one project somewhere, and I'm racking my brain trying to remember. I was thinking maybe Josh Zinder's project
on Witherspoon Street, but I'm not convinced that's correct. But somewhere along the line, we did uh do that. Yeah, it's not it's not new to me, but I don't I can't remember a project and I don't think our records
are cross um cross reference that way to be able to pull it up. Do you have any questions? >> I I do, but I don't think they're appropriate. I mean, part of the problem is is the the the eventual cost to
repairing this. I don't know what that's going to be and you know, it may be cost prohibitive to repair or or in in in I can't comment on that. It just it makes >> right >> you know we come to the the commission
you know to there's no reason for us to want to replace it if it can be repaired more efficiently and and and more economically. what I'm you know what from based on my
information unfortunately the economics of it is is that this is the most efficient and best way to repair and maintain the building as a whole um going forward um and and keeping it in inconsistence with the two buildings now
you're going to get two buildings on both sides of 190 that are going to look the same and 19 and and 190 190 is going to be different. I just I think that's >> that's that's not problematic though for >> well it it is visually it may not be but for
maintaining the building it may be and this is a retail facet retail and and office building that if if if it's leaking or it's not able to be repaired on a costefficient basis it may not be rented people may not want to rent it
it's >> May I ask a question David. Um, economics is not in our purview though. Correct. >> Correct. >> I mean it it Yeah. >> Sarah, do you want to comment on that as well?
>> It they're not in our economics is not in our purview. Um, I think I kind of made it clear in my report that these, although they're connected, these are three separate buildings from three
separate building periods. So, having them all kind of match isn't necessarily something we would a condition we would want to meet. Um, that's also not how the standards are outlined. Um, and if there has been cases where we've every
we always say every case is different. So, if we approve Da Vinci slate synthetic shingles on a different building, but maybe that building didn't have an existing slate shingle roof, like there could be a number of conditions of why we did that. Uh, in
regards of how we move forward from here do I don't know how you would like to address this uh Mr. administrator that >> well I I >> draw the application revise it >> if if we have to come back and revise
the application for 190 or we have to come back and and and redo it I can't can't say um um you know if there's a different kind of slate or a different kind of synthetic that that the the owner would consider um that would more match the slate I'd have to go back to the the
contractors and the and the and the roofing specialists and determine that is but I mean we'll take it for the time being at least we get 190 to two done. Um and um you know I know
it's I I don't know how else to address it at this point because >> um >> I don't know the cost. I mean while you say the cost isn't isn't isn't in your purview um it's a factor for the ownership to determine what the next
step is. Would it be helpful to the commission to obtain more information about the, you know, a little bit more information from the applicant about the the age of of of the roof and the prior
history and I guess the nature of the maybe more specificity with reference to the nature of the issues. Would that be helpful to the commission? Oh, I mean honestly I don't think that's relevant though really. I mean I'm not
I'm just trying to to stick to our you know what are what is our charge and to the integrity of that? >> I guess one is is it relevant whether or not it can be repaired? I guess that's, you know, if this late roof can't be
repaired, then >> I guess that's a I mean, I and I we don't really have facts. I mean, I I mean, we Yeah, I mean, I don't know if >> I agree with you, M. Maddox. And, you know, I mean, everything can be repaired, >> right, >> theoretically, right? It's a it's a
cost. Part of it part of it is practicality of you know it it may be that in order to repair it every you know has to be completely replaced. Every slate has to come off and every and new slate has to go on. That's not a
repair. That's a that's a replacement. Um and that and and and yes cost goes into it to determine whether it's repairable, economically repable in economic viability is whether it's
repairable. If 80% of the tiles have to come off in order for it to be repaired in order to stop it, stop the rust, stop the leaking, put the new channels in, put the new um flashing around the
windows and around the chimneys. Is that is that the the best the the best way of of of oper of of managing this building? >> Well, perhaps Mr. triggered that those could be questions that could be
answered and and come back to us with those answers. I mean, I don't it doesn't seem profitable to guess on those. I think we're all guessing on that right now. >> I understand that. I'm just >> right. And I and I also
>> I'm not sure based on the I don't mean to be I'm not trying not to be argumentative with you. Please misunderstand. Don't misunderstand. But I'm not sure how that I mean, if I come back and say we have to take off 80% of or 85% of the roof in order to repair
it, will that make a difference? I'm I'm not saying that you need to answer that right now, Miss Freriedman. Um I'm just saying, hey, uh you know, if you want to adjourn this part of the application, um so we for for the next meeting, I'm sure certainly I could get some more
information along those lines. Um I Mr. Let me can I just interrupt and and state on the record the conditions that are referenced in my report of what we what are the conditions that this is reviewed under um and I can share my
screen as well. So the secretary of the inter interior standards states that number six deteriorated historic features will be repaired rather than replaced where severity of the deterioration requires replacement of a distinctive feature.
The new feature will match the old in design color texture and where possible materials. Replacement of missing features will be substantiated by documentary and physical evidence. And similarly in our ordinance, original sighting and roofing material
should be maintained or repaired and if replacement is needed, it should be of the same material and size. If the same material is not available, a substitute material should be of the same shape and size. These are what the commission the criteria for review of preservation plan
applications, not the cost and the repairs. >> I get I understand that. But if you go back to the the prior one, um if you can bring up your the the first thing that you cited
>> on the secretary's of >> Yes. >> the secretar's thing Am I sharing the right screen? >> I don't see anything right at the moment. >> Hold on. Let me try that again. How about now?
>> Nope. What the heck? >> Did you see something, Mr. Shrager, in the guidelines that you had a question about? >> I I did um I'm trying to
I started to write it down, but then I didn't get it didn't get the full quote in there. >> Do think it's pretty clear, but >> it's showing sharing on my end. I don't know why it's not working. It's also if you reference my report there, they are linked. The Secretary of the Interior
standards are linked in my report. >> Yes, it was. >> Well, give me one moment, please. still nothing. >> I'm just clicking on your links. >> Okay, >> if you give me a second here, I apologize.
What number were you using? What? What? >> Number six under standards for rehabilitation. I I guess my my my question is is how does a commission like like this one I guess this is a a a question for council really is it says where the severity of
the deterioration requires replacement How does a commission like this determine the severity of the deterioration that requires replacement? >> I I think um there would have to be
testimony from the applicant to provide that level of information otherwise because what I'm hearing is that I don't know if the HPC the commission has enough information to make this determination. >> Okay. Um,
so therefore that's why I think they're hesitant to approve anything more than a repair there. There would have to be proof that you can't they can't be repaired and that would come from the applicant. And
then under the the let's see, I'm going to go into the um section 386 bouncing around to the different sections here. that Sarah just brought up.
If you look at them in conjunction, it kind of lays out the standard. Thank you. >> So, it where it says >> forever. >> See, >> I was referencing this one.
>> Yes. V five. Right. The original sight and roofing here should be maintained and repaired and if replacement is needed, it should be of the same material and size. So, that would have to be in kind. And if the same material isn't available, so that would mean the
a slate roof essentially your slate roof replacement is not available, then a substitute material would have to be the same shape and size. So there, I guess, different steps in the process. First, you know, you would have to determine if replacement is even needed, and then if
so, it would have to be the same material and size, thus slate. But then if it's not, you'd have to demonstrate you'd have to demonstrate that slate material is not available. So, it's and I'm hopefully Sarah, I'm not misstating the different steps in the process here.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, >> no, I think I as I understand it, that's fairly accurate. >> It's really a step-by-step pro and that's what I was I wasn't suggesting that I agree the financial aspect shouldn't come into it. It's really the ability the ability to repair it based
on the standards that are in the ordinance. Um, so I I guess it's a step by step and and these determinations are really factual. I mean, the they come from the facts. So I I would I would say we I think the the commission would need more information
to be able to um to be able to make these types of decisions and and to be able to agree whether or not it can be repaired or not repaired and if there are substitute because they're not hearing about any substitute materials. I mean there was no testimony about whether
slate is even an you know an actual slate is an option. So these are I would be based on other meetings and other discussions on similar subjects those are the types of questions they usually have. But I so that's the kind of information I
would I would say they need. So Slate is certainly available. Is that is that what you're asking, Lisa? >> Well, I would they would have to right the applicant would have to show it's not available, >> right? >> So, you know, so I'm just Yeah,
>> but yeah, I mean, it seems to me that Charlotte's proposal is to save the applicant from having to replace the whole roof in kind with slate. that, you know, repairing it would certainly be,
you know, less expensive and still, you know, uh, comply with the the Secretary of the Interior standards and our our ordinance. >> I I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. trigger. Part of what he is positing
is that without the current facts in front of us, if so much of the roof is damaged beyond repair, when do we start talking about replacement? >> That was certainly >> I think that's what we're missing here. That's the testimony we would need
>> that we may need to carry this application. >> Sarah, that was not how it was presented in the applic. >> No, I I understand. I think that's what the what what he's saying now. It's not what was said in the application. >> It's not what was there. So,
>> no, you're right. It wasn't. But that's the question he's asking now and we're trying to get to the bottom of. >> So, that wasn't the preservation as presented. Correct. >> Right. >> Or proposed rather.
But Sarah, if we do get to to a point where they come back and say, "Okay, 80% of the roof needs to be repaired and we say fine, replace it." They will they still have the responsibility of replacing it with a light material,
which is slate. >> Right. >> Right. They still have to meet the conditions highlighted in the report. >> Right. So if you if you go back and get testimonies, you still have to speak to your roofing people to understand what materials are out there so that
you're not coming back and giving us one step and then we have to go back and another step a month or two later. >> Understood. Thank you. I don't know what what you guys what we want to do. I I I would you know
is there is there a way to partially grant this application so we can do 192 in this way and then adjourn 190 for another another time. Um, so I can get that testimony and see
if it's if it's if it's the kind of testimony that would would be >> Sarah and Lisa. That that sounds reasonable to me. Is that possible? >> Isn't that what Charlotte proposed? >> Oh, yeah. That's what we Yeah.
essentially she was yeah she was grant she wanted to grant at least a repair the ability to repair in kind at this point but I I don't think that that precludes the applicant from um >> returning to it was more facts
>> exactly especially on the repair I mean if it's a if it's entirely new I I don't yeah I I I mean I guess you can resubmit um >> regardless of the condition approval would be there how would have to be a a modification, an update of the
preservation plan proposal for 190, but 192 as currently proposed was approved per the resolution. >> Mhm. >> I >> So I don't think you would carry, you
know, a portion. >> Yeah, I think we would just leave it there and let uh the applicant and Mr. Tracker can res follow up with us. Yeah. And resubmit >> if if it's not the repair that would be rightated by the resolution. >> All right. Thank you.
>> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Moving on to the next. We have an application. Um,
well, let me ask a question just to kind of keep to uh the agenda that we had more or less set and published. Should we go back now and see if 405 Basin Street is ready >> or hold them to the end?
>> Uh, you want >> Mr. Andrew Sheran, I apologize for interrupting, but I don't recall hearing a vote. I hear the >> there was a roll call vote. >> Was there okay the question? Yeah. >> Thank you.
>> Okay. Um I do not I saw Mr. Emit and somebody from Venture Solar sign on for a minute and then they signed out. >> So >> yeah, >> I say we move on to the ne next applicant. >> Very good. Thank you. So, the next
applicant is 224 John Street, restoration of existing house and construction of a rear edition. It's in the Witherspoon Jackson Historic District. And if you want to bring over the representatives for that project,
>> Hi. How you doing? We're talking Mark and Louisa, is there anyone else for your application? >> I'm here. Sorry about that. I I it all cut out when you promoted me to a panelist. >> It's just you guys. No one else. >> Correct.
>> Okay. I just need Lisa to bring you in. >> Yes. Who will be testifying or presenting on behalf of the applicant? Will it be um >> We're both going to talk, so you might want to just sign us. Yeah. If you could um each both raise
your right hands. Um, do you swear to tell the tr the the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, if you could each just give me your full names for the record. So, it's Mark.
>> Okay. >> Uh, Bieber's father. >> Great. Gabrielle Gabrielle's brother. Okay. and Louisa Clayton on the architect. >> Great. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Um Louis, as you're familiar, we like to hear about the project and then um the commission members. Um we'll hear from Sarah Quinnland about her review and then if there's any comments from the public and then we'll try to get a resolution get going to get things done
tonight. So if if you're comfortable, um can you start telling us about the project? >> Okay. Um maybe Mark and Gabby, do you guys want to just go first and give a quick >> intro and then I'll go into the presentation.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate that. So we're we're Mark and Gabby Carter. Appreciate you guys having us. We're grateful to be here and excited to be a part of this this community. Um, just for background, right, we have three young children, five, three, six months. Um, we moved to the Princeton area about
a year ago. We actually live on John Street. And when we were deciding, um, where we want to put down our roots, it was really trying to find a neighborhood that had kind of real character, history, diversity, and a sense of community. Um, and as I know, we we live on John Street now. We live at 180. Uh,
we moved here last year and and really love the charm of the neighborhood. Um, and we actually discovered 224 because we are at the Merry Moth playground during the spring and summer almost every day with the kids. Uh, we we we we
saw the sign go up actually the day it was being put in. Um, and I grew up in restored older homes and immediately recognized it as a place where we could raise our children and and grow old together. I think one of the key reasons that our offer was accepted
by the state of the family that had a few people sorry uh it's very shabby today. Uh one of the reasons our offer was accepted is because we weren't looking to come in build and quickly sell it. It's it it was really a place it's a place that we want to be long term and it's a
community that we want to contribute to. Uh we feel our design reflects both our desire to stay in line kind of with the historical aesthetic of the neighborhood. Um but also right some of the realities of us wanting to be here long term, having three children, both of us working full-time, one of us is
working from home every day. Um but right, we love living on John Street. It's where we want to be. We have no interest, right, in disrupting what what makes it so special. and whatever. >> Well, admittedly for me the fun of
attention was the walkability and I needed to be able to walk into town. I wanted to have the experience of walking our kids to school and I mean that's where John Street is everything. We can walk to the schools. We can walk to the recreation
center down the hill. We go to the pool. The kids love it. I live at Marry Mount Playground. So to live across from it is just that much more fitting. And yeah, we've also just we've already made friends amongst the neighbors and that has meant so much to us as far as kind
of having those roots in community and we love getting to know the families who have been here for 10 20 plus years and then also getting to know our newer neighbors who will be raising our kids together and that meant so much to us.
>> Louis hand it over to you. >> Okay. Super. Thank you. Um, so I'm just gonna um share my screen. Let me think about how to do that. Uh, here. Everything just froze. Okay, here we go.
Um, all right. Great. So, I just have a Can everybody see that? >> Uh-huh. >> Yep. >> Yep. Okay, perfect. Uh, I decided to make it a tiny bit smaller so that I can
manage it. >> Real quick, Louisa, are these um slides part of the submission that's already on file? Uh, and if not, >> no. So, I can so it can be like A1 and I can send it to Sarah. >> Awesome. Thank you. >> Yep.
All right. So, um, basically just a little bit of, um, review, a little bit of review. Same with Sarah. So, um, here are Sanborn maps. 19 1895 was the first time it appeared, or at least the first time,
actually, the Sandborn map went beyond uh, Green Street. Um, and then all the way up to 1918. So, you can see that this house expanded, but really the neighborhood also expanded around it. And um so it's it began as like lots of space and then
less space and less space and then it was pretty tight here and then this one was built. So it's very dense as everybody knows. Um and which is part of the charm. Uh here are some old photos circa 1920s circa 1930s from historical society of
Princeton of John Street. Um so this is the typical kind of house that we're talking about tonight. um that was there uh at that time uh you know clabarded siding double hung
windows etc. Um here is the house a Google map of John Street. Here's Mary Mouse playground. Um and you can see that we're sort of the small house in the quote unquote
bigger house area. Everybody else seems to have expanded and this one has not really expanded. Um, and you can see that here also on the not the photographic map, but just the drawn map. Um, and here's a just a variety of of the
neighborhood right within one block basically going around. Um, you can see different roof heights. Some have the gable facing the street. Some have the gable facing the sideyard. Some have hip roofed with dormer. Some
are short. Some are tall. Some expand way back uh at different heights themselves. Some are higher, lower, etc. So there's a there is an existing variety um in the neighborhood which again I also think contributes to the character
of it and the way that the the the community has evolved over time as as people um have expanded their homes because their families have gotten bigger or their their children have gotten bigger because they're growing up or or people just have always, you know,
done things to their homes to make them more comfortable for what their family situation is and how they are living and this this situation is really no different. Uh here is the house in the middle 224. Um and then the neighboring houses on
either side. So you can see that this really is the smaller one of all of them. Um this is similar in um configuration, a little bit wider and a little bit taller. And this one has the opposing gable. Um, but everybody's got
a front porch and um, uh, this one has a shed roof over the front porch. This has a hip roof over the front porch. This has a balcony instead. Um, you know, so again, lots of variety even within this just this this really microcosm of the of the neighborhood here. And Molly Moss playground is directly across the
street. So, here is the house. It's um, as we understand from the neighbors, it hasn't been lived in for about 10 years. Um, and it's not in great shape. I don't believe it really has been maintained very well over that time and it's
showing. Um, the um, right now it's got aluminum siding. Um, it has some plastic lattice. Um, it's got actually a sofa underneath the porch right now. Uh, in addition to a bunch of old lumber and
stuff. I don't know if I have a picture of that, but if you peek through there, you could see that there a set of concrete steps which are currently pulling away from the porch posts. Um and um there are some wood components of the porch and some vinyl components
of the porch and we would um propose to replace or repair first repair what we could and then um remove the vinyl. For example, it's the beadboard ceiling is vinyl, and we would repair we would replace that with um something that's more in keeping with the character, the
original character of the house. The um the windows are replacement vinyl windows um just one over one, no divisions in the sashes, and the trim is wood, but as we'll see in a later picture, it really is rotting and it's not in it's not
repairable, so it really does need to be replaced. Um um I don't know if I said this, but we're we're proposing to remove the concrete steps and replace them with wooden steps that would come off and have a similar
detailing railing to the porch railing that's there now. Um and a new post at the bottom that would be similar to the porch post. Um so I think with which again would be I think more in keeping with the original house. So, here's a little bit more of a
closeup of the wood uh trim on the exterior. Uh I think there used to be storm windows, but there are no more storm windows because I think that what when they probably replace these vinyl windows, uh they're um they do have insulated glass, so they probably got rid of the storm windows at that time,
but they left the frames. So, again, we would like to just clean all of this up and really kind of bring it back to the charm of what it had originally been. Um, there's still knob and tube wiring in the basement. We'd want to get rid of that as a safety feature. Um, there was
a lot of water in the basement. Anytime it rains, it's it's the the foundation itself is not in great shape, but we're not proposing to get rid of the foundation. Um, although this is and it's this is hard to see in the photo, but if you look through this crack in the front wall of the foundation, you can see daylight. So, there is
significant repair to be done just to really keep get this house kind of properly enclosed. But um but anyway, that's a repair that we're talking that we will do. Again, a lot of old piping, old wiring, old equipment that doesn't really work anymore. And of course, all
these lolli columns are holding up the floor system, which means the floor system is not working. This photo down here shows a split floor joist. Um that isn't doing anybody any favors at the moment. So when we're talking about the
structure of this existing first floor system and second floor system in the front part of the house, we're talking about, you know, sistering uh framing materials where we need to or replacing the broken ones with basically in kind, same size,
all of that just because we want to we do want to maintain certainly that front portion of the house as best that we possibly can. Um, but there's just a lot of water, a lot of leaking, uh, a lot of air flow. It's it's just not in good
shape. So, this is the existing condition here, the survey showing the two um, so this is the house in the middle and then this is the house. I think it's 220 and 226.
Uh, yeah, 220 is to the left and 226 is to the right. So, you can see it's pretty tight here in terms of the sideyards. Um, which is why we have to ask for the variances from the zoning board because we are just, you know, even though this house was was built in 1895, the zoning regulations were
overlaid in 1970 um and have actually really nothing to do with this neighborhood at all. So, um so that's really what um is is causing that um request for zoning variance. But for you here today, we're talking about really the m the maint maintenance of the front
part of the building and restoring that character um for the street. So here is the proposed site plan. We're proposing to push it back really sort of in line with what we've got at 220, slightly beyond what we've got at 226, but what
goes beyond 226 is a one-story edition, which you can see up here. Um this this diagram shows the sight lines and so although we are building higher in the rear we're setting it it's number one it's set back from the front portion of
the building um and we've also uh you know sloped the roof back so given it a basically a hipped roof at that point so that you really will not be able to see it. Um, this is a 6' person and a 5'5,
which is my height and I think Sarah, too. And you really wouldn't be able to see it from even across the street. So, um, I just say that because we were out there together. Um, so, you know, that's the sort of idea that we could that we're really trying to minimize,
um, this addition being visible from the street. So, here's the existing the existing conditions and existing plan. And then we're talking about um just adding, you know, basically pulling it
back, pulling it back from the sideyard, pushing it um toward the rear and giving them the kind of space um so that they can really truly stay here and raise their family um for the long term. And here are the elevations. So, here's
what you saw, um, which is the the, um, the south side of the building, and this is where we're also talking about putting the solar panels. So, again, they really would not be visible from certainly from John Street. And, um, uh,
we'd like to just get them on there just just in, you know, for energy efficiency sake. This this house will be all electric, so we're getting rid of all combustion. Um, we're hoping to, you know, we're going to really increase the insulation in the walls. Um, we're going to get really good windows, you know,
all within keeping of the charm of the exterior envelope, but but really creating a house that will will take them, you know, uh, into the next few decades and really not cost them that much to run and really allow them to stay here for the long term. So, um, and
that's that's all I have. Does anybody have any questions? You have the materials in your packet. I don't have those in this presentation, but if we want to talk about that, we certainly can, too. >> I was just going to ask what what the height that the very top roof line of
the addition. What What is that height in comparison? >> Yeah, it's uh let me just pull it out a little larger. I think it's 20. Um >> Louisa >> Yeah. >> is asking what it was in comparison to the neighbors.
>> Oh, it's lower than the neighbor. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we're not going higher than the neighbor. >> I I have a question about variances. So, >> yeah. >> How many variances do you need to get? >> We just need it for the sideyard because
we're pushing back. >> Oh, okay. And um we're pushing back two stories slightly longer than they'd like, but that those are the two variances that we need. >> Okay. >> And the height to setback ratio because again we're so close to the property line that there's really nothing we can
do about that. >> Okay. So there's like three variances. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> But I don't think any they're all C variances. I don't think any of them will really propose a prop hardship to the neighborhood or the community. and the neighbors next door on both sides
have already built this way. So, we're not asking for anything out of the ordinary. >> Well, I think every house that has had work done in this neighborhood has variances. It's just >> and I know they're trying to work on that now to, you know, the zoning
regulations there are so out of whack. They're trying to fix that, but >> yeah, it's hard. In the meantime, yeah, we're still doing this. >> Right. Right. Exactly. >> Can I interrupt for a moment? Ask Sarah to give us um her overview.
>> Oh, sure. >> You want me to stop sharing, Sarah? >> Yes, please. I was trying to see if there's an easy button to push. >> Just How do I do that? Um, sorry. I have to manage zoom. Okay, here
we go. Stop. >> Oh, did I already stop sharing? >> No. >> No, I still see it. >> Look on your keyboard, Louis. >> Oh, wait. I got it. There we go. >> Okay, great. >> Okay,
I will share my screen. Okay, so can we see my screen? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Good. >> I was being weird before. Uh so as Louisa presented, uh this is in a type
two historic district uh district which is subject to preservation plan review for any changes visible from the public right ofway. Um and this is uh an application for historic preservation plan review as well as an application to the zoning board of adjustment. So, this
would be a recommendation to the zoning board. Uh, as we are not the board of jurisdiction, I'm going to kind of go briefly through my report. Um little more retreading of what Louis had said that 224 John Street is a two-story
woodframe side gable vernacular dwelling with a full width front porch constructed circa 1892 and features a two-story shed roofer addition with a slight bump out on the south elevation of the dwelling. The building first appears on the 1895 Sanborn map listed
as 126 John Street and as a two-story dwelling with a halfwidth on one-story rear edition. By 1902, the rear edition was expanded to its current footprint and the dwelling was listed as 128 John Street. Uh the current address of 224 John Street didn't appear until 1918,
but the otherwise the building has largely retained its form and massing since that time. Uh it's situated on a narrow lot and shares a gravel driveway with 220 John Streets.
The proposed scope of work includes the restoration of the main block of the house facing John Street. Um consisting of the replacement of aluminum siding and trim with Hardy Plank lap siding and true exterior trim. The replacement of the existing vinyl windows with fiberglass clad wood windows of the same size configuration and operation. And
the modern front door will be replaced with a wood front door. Uh everything on the roof, aphalt, shingles, gutters, and down souths will be replaced in kind. And the front porch will be restored with new wood elements, new wood stoop.
Uh and the removal of the lattice with new inset lattice panled in between the parge support peers. The new construction for the property is at the rear which includes the demolition of the existing two-story rear edition and the construction of a two and a half
story gabled edition with a setback hip ungable roof facing John Street and a small two-story cross cable crossable roof connecting the addition to the main house. Outside of the cross gable, the existing roof on the main block of the dwelling will not be altered in shape or form. The rear edition features the same
roofing and siding materials proposed on the male main block of the house as well as solar panels on the south side slope of the roof. Uh and the additions west elevation features a centered one-story gabled edition with the rear deck. Uh I
just skip ahead a little bit. um the demolition of the rear edition. While the addition's massing has changed from its original configuration when it was constructed circa 1892, its current form has been in place since at least 1902. However, during the bu due to the
building density along John Street, only portions of the rear edition are visible from the public right ofway and its removal would not would most likely not constitute a significant impact to the individual resource or the larger historic districts. I completed a site visit with Louisa on April 7th to assess
the visibility of the pros rear edition based on the surrounding development and the building density within the immediate setting of 224 John Street, including alterations previously approved to 220 John Street. It appears the addition of the proposed solar panels will largely not be visible from
the south and north side elevations of the existing house. I'm going to skip down to the photos. Uh, so this is facing the house on John Street. Again, John Street. This is looking from the side that
this addition appears to be high enough that you would not see the solar panels or the roof of the rear edition. Um, but bringing these photos back up. Wait, no, I lied. Sorry for the scroll. Um,
however, the addition will be partially visible from certain vantage points on John Street directly facing the dwelling. Um, but the setback hip on gable roof should minimize the visual impact of the taller taller addition and the surrounding streetscape. So, you'll see that there is an extension, but it
does not appear like the addition will overwhelm the building, the existing building. Uh, as the new addition minimally alters the existing main block of the house as seen from John Street, it does not appear to destroy any historic materials, features, or spatial relationships that characterize the
property. In addition, due to the size and scale of the surrounding properties, the proposed rear edition appears to be consistent with the existing paradigm of block. Likewise, the addition appears to be compatible with the existing size, scale, proportion, and massing of other rear editions found throughout the
Witherspoon Jackson Historic District falling within the vernacular traditions of the neighborhood. I'm going to skip back up to the criteria review. Okay. Uh,
as a contributing resource to the Witherspoon Jackson Historic District, staff recommends the commission consider whether a project as proposed generally retains the building's historic integrity, spaces, and spatial relationships, as well as the overall historic character of the property. In addition, staff recommends the commission consider the following while
conducting their historic preservation plan review and sub subsequent recommendation to the zoning board of adjustment. whether the proposed project meets the secretary's interior standards. whether it is appropriate to and compatible with the existing structures and landscape of the Witherspoon Jackson Historic District,
whether it would reversely affect the ambiance character and appearance of the district. Whether a proposed project preserves or enhances the historic architectural value and character of the structure. Whether it would adversely affect the exterior architectural features and setting of the structure.
Whether the alterations to the existing dwelling seek to restore the structure to a reasonably conceived appearance it had when it was first constructed, moved, or modeled. uh whether the modifications proposed to the existing dwelling that are beneficial to contemporary living, including but not living limited to the demolition of the
existing two-story rear edition and construction of the new two and a half story rear edition are consists consistent with the architectural design and characterist. Whether proposed addition is visually compatible with the structures of the district. Whether the addition acts as a
backdrop to and does not visually intrude upon the structures and places within the district. Whether the height of the addition is visually compatible. Whether the relationship of the width to height of the proposed addition is visually incompatible. Whether the relationship of the proposed addition to
the open space between it and adjoining structures is visually compatible with the with the district. Whether the roof shape of the proposed addition is visually compatible with structures within its immediate setting. And whether the size, massing, windows, doors, and porches on the proposed addition is visually compatible with the
structures and places within their immediate setting. Hey, >> commission members, any any new questions or additional questions based on that very good um review of how to think about this property? Okay. Um so why don't we take a break
and find out if there are members of the public who have things they want to ask or comment on about this project. Anyone from the public would like to make a public comment, please raise your hands. Okay,
I am not I am promoting Yina to panelist and then I will get John next. Uh, good evening HPC and staff. Um, my name is Yiana Moore. I live at 19
Green Street. I have testified in the past with regard to the application of uh visuals from streetscape side of buildings being altered within the with Witherspoon Jackson historic district.
Um and so in this case, well, it seems the application of um or the installation of solar panels seems to not be visible.
um which is certainly a good thing. It was based I guess on the prior um um requirements to to limit that visual. Um I am concerned about the height of that
rear edition. Um why it appears that the um floor to ceiling on all floors which appear to be three floors including the roof um is much
higher than the existing building and as a result that hip roof from the elevation street side can be seen uh while it's not on in line with the facade of the
original building can be seen. And I'm wondering whether there really is a um a way to mitigate that uh by reducing the height of either floor to ceiling on the first, second, and third floor or um
changing I guess the roof configuration. Um because uh what it is is a popup in the in the back um that is visible from the street which is not a good look. Um
so that's those are my comments with regard to this because it sets a negative precedent to continue on that regardless of what the height of the roof comparison is to its neighbor. um
that the visual from the street is is the issue. Thank you. >> Thank you, Jana. >> Thank you, Ya. >> Sarah, is there another? >> I have one more. I am promoting John.
>> Uh hi, this is John Jackson. uh we're neighbors at 220 John and just wanted to reinforce that we're uh entirely supportive of the application and the improvements to the house next door. Um and personally as the the family that I
guess would be seeing uh solar panels the most were also comfortable with that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, can we go back to any um elevations that
that show different angles of the height of the building to surrounding buildings? >> You want me to bring that back up? >> If you could, please. Um, I think um I mean
>> that's probably >> this is the s this is the existing situation we're talking about coming up about here lower than this roof um and angling it back from the street. So again, I mean,
I I I understand that like if I if I were to draw that roof on here, it would look like you could see it, right? You know, immediately, but the reality is is that it's not straight up and down like this one is, which you do see immediately.
>> Um, it is set it is set quite far back. It's already set back here. And I think that that's like about like 15 ft or something. Um, and then it's angled back. So,
um, I really, and you know, these are the sight lines. This is a 6 foot tall person looking up. And if they're on the sidewalk here, what they're going to see is this roof. And even if they're on the sidewalk across the street, what they're going to see is this ridge at the front,
and it's going to go all the way back. So, you know, it's um it's really not going to be that visible from the street and with the other houses with the higher roofs next door, the the gentleman who just spoke um
you know, and this one that's already here again, they're all so close together that sure you catch a tiny glimpse of it beyond like you catch a tiny glimpse of this dormer here, but it's not it's not the main thing. So when you look at this streetscape, I
probably you probably don't even really think about this dormer here and that's what this roof would be like. So sure, you look at it for a long time and you're like, "Oh yeah, there's a dormer there." But what you really think about is what this gable looks like and what this roof looks like and what this roof
looks like and the window configurations and the front porches. And then only after a while of thinking about it and looking at it will you be like, "Oh, and oh, by the way, yeah, that does have a dormer way back there." So, I think that we have to think about this one, this addition as like that, right? I'm not
saying you're never going to see it, but I don't think it's ever it's going to it's not going to jump out at you, and it's not going to feel like it's part of this streetscape that you're enjoying right now. >> Thank you. That helped me a lot.
>> You're welcome. I think you do read it as the massing of the building, though. you know it it I mean you do even if it's
back further it's it's a larger mass but but it could also be something homes behind you know different homes like this one >> so it's hard to say like this one you know
this one is is maybe six feet and then he pops up behind and it just goes straight up. So you definitely see that from the street, but this one would be completely angled back. So I don't think it's going to be the same feeling.
>> Um, commission members, any other questions or comments? Well, one thing that stood out to me is that it was said that the house has been empty or vacant for 10 years. >> That's what we understand from the neighbors. Yeah.
>> Wow. So, I mean, I don't think it's good for any neighborhood to have a house empty for 10 years. I wouldn't want an empty house next to my house. So, you know, I I think also there is an upgrade in materials
from vinyl to hardy plank, from vinyl windows to wood fiberglass windows. Um, and to rebuild the porch,
um, with materials that, you know, are maybe more appropriate like the stoop. I think it would be better to have a wood stoop than concrete. And I don't know. I mean, for me, I think having a sofa
under your house is a little weird. Like, I would I would get rid of that. But >> that's the plan. But I definitely think this is um going to add to the the vitality of the
neighborhood and yet keep its character. Um so that's my two cents. I I think that you bring a lot of excellent points to the to the conversation. Others
All right, then. Are we um at a point where we're ready to uh make a recommendation to the uh zoning board? Um I I guess what I'm hearing in favor of this project and and the variances it requires.
>> Sure. >> Yeah, I' I'd recommend it. >> Yeah, I think >> it was out a second. >> I'm sorry, Roger. No, no, I just gonna just chiming in there. I think it's a it's a well-designed project and I think it will be a good addition to the
neighborhood. >> All right, then. Um, Sarah, what do we need for a letter? Also, a roll call or >> Yes, it'll it'll be a roll call. Um, but it is a, correct me if I'm wrong, Lisa,
a recommendation to the zoning board, which will then turn into a chair memo rather than a resolution, but still roll vote and all the other formal things of a resolution. >> Okay. >> So, we need a motion and a second if we
are going forward on this and no one else has any other comments. Okay, I'll make a motion to appro to approve it as >> second motion. >> Okay, I'll do the roll call. Uh,
this is for recommendation to the zoning board of adjustments. Mr. Shatskin, >> yes. >> Miss Howard, >> yes. Miss Capazolei. >> Yes. >> Miss Freriedman. >> Yes.
>> Miss Scroll. >> Yes. >> Miss Kosvnikova. >> Yes. >> Chair Sher. >> Yes. >> Nice. The recommendation for the zoning board adjustment has passed. >> Thank you so much. We really really
appreciate your time and your thought. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Louisa. >> Thank you all. I appreciate it so much. I think that was a cheer. >> I think they liked it, too. >> Appreciate it. >> Thank you. All right,
let's hear from um uh the application for the Quadrangle Club, 33 um Prospect Avenue, and they want to replace their terracotta roof tile with um Da Vinci
synthetic slate. Dominic, I assume you're presenting on this application. >> Good. Does Can everybody hear me? All right. >> Yes. Is there anyone else presenting for with you? I saw there were other quad people on here and they have since dropped off.
>> Um, no, they were just planning on listening in listening in anyway. Um, but um, uh, I mean, guess you guys kind of went over a lot of the points with the 190 to 192 application.
>> Miss Dominic, if we could just we just need to swear you in if you don't mind before you give testimony. So, just raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> Yes. >> Okay. And if you could just state your full name for the record.
>> Dominic Fel. F is in Frank. A R R E L L O. >> Great. Um, so I guess with the application submitted, it was more of it was a
like continuity with the block. It's the current roof is a tile roof that is over like it's I think it's 60 years old, 70 years old. Um, and I guess it would be the same conversation that we had earlier about does it how do we know it
needs repair, etc., etc. So, if you need documentation on that, we're happy to provide it. Um, the uh every single building on the block is a either a black slate or a unfading green slate,
modeled green, purple mixes. So with the same similar facade, you guys would know better. Uh Miss Quinnland would know the you know the timing of the buildings and the structures, but um it just the tile
isn't uh um with the low slope that this roof is, the tile is not a not the best option in 2026. I'll put it that way. So, not really having considered this and excuse
me because I'm getting thrown into it later in the game, but you know, not excuse like not like, you know, getting away from anything, but uh I guess the thought was similar to what
Mr. Shrager said earlier, minus the cost issues. Um, but yeah, I guess I I mean I don't know like about the review. I mean, I guess I could comment on what the review was or
what what your guys thoughts are. And I I'm not sure why the roof is being the terracotta roof is being replaced with a slate, synthetic slate versus terracotta with a new terracotta
roof. >> The synthetic slate is just pref honestly is preferable to us for a few reasons. maintenance being one
of them. And it looks it'll look it'll blend with the block better. I mean, right now the terracotta's just been dirtied and browned anyway. You can barely tell it's terracotta from the ground. Um but uh
um yeah, it was it was just a it's just a maintenance thing. Whereas terracotta is brittle on the lower on a lower slope. I believe that slope is a four or a five on 12. So when you get a snow load like I mean this year being the most extreme
example, it doesn't hold up well to that. Um that along with the surrounding trees and stuff, it's it just is easier for them to break and require a lot of maintenance. Whereas the plastic holds
up to all that the synthetic. >> Was the building designed originally with a terracotta roof? that I don't know. Miss Quinland maybe would know.
>> I can I can go over my report in a bit. >> Yeah. I'm >> You're done. Dominic, I can go over my report. >> Sure. That'd be great because I'm like kind of I don't want to just keep talking over myself. >> Okay. So, I share my screen.
I did not see this report, but did you wait, did you send this to anybody or is this the first time it is? >> No, I sent this to the applicant on whoever else he copied on the quad club and it was up website. >> Um, okay. So, we are discussing
>> Can we see my screen? Is it >> Yeah, I had to switch to my thing, but um I trust I trust you said you swore in, right? So, yeah, you're good. Uh we're talking about 33 Prospect Avenue known as the quadrangle Cub. Uh it is in a type two historic district
which is subject to preservation plan review for any changes from the public right ofway and this is for strictly historic preservation plan review. Um the Prospect Avenue Historic District is our newer 21st historic district. Uh it
is among the collection of Princeton eating clubs along Prospect Avenue that constitutes the majority of the contributing properties within this district. Uh the 16 club houses on this row were erected between 1895 and 1928 reflecting popular revival styles of the
period. 11 of the evening clubs were made privately owned and operated while the other five are owned by the university and used for academic purposes. The district is characterized by the architectural significance of the club houses along the north and south sides of Prospect Avenue which retain a
high level of integrity from the time of their construction. The club houses are set back from the road with large manure manicured lawns landscaping mature trees. The quadrangle club was originally designed by Henry Milikin in a Georgian revival style and constructed 1916. The
two-story brick building has a medillion block cornice. The brick is laid in Flemish blond with l with with limestone coins, window sills, and keystones centered in the brickjack arch lintils. The rear of the building features a two-story boat edition which has altered its massing, but the building's form is
evident from Prospect Avenue. The 1981 pro Princeton architectural survey noted that the roof was clad in wood shingles and the Princeton Historic District boundary increase for the Princeton Eating Clubs from 2017 noted that the building has a slate roof. However, original roofing material provided by
the applicant indicates the roof is clad in square clay red terracotta tiles. The proposed project consists of the removal of the terracotta tiles and the replacement with a da Vinci slate shingle and castle gray. While the discrepancy in earlier surveys regarding the roofing material is most likely due
to the buildup of organic material that obscured the terod tiles over time, uh the tiles replacement does not appear to meet secretary of the interior standards for the treatment of historic properties. The standards for rehabilitation note that deteriorated historic features will be repaired rather than replaced where the severity
of deterioration requires replacement of a distinctive feature. The new feature will match the old in design color texture where possible materials replacement of missing features will be substantiated by documentary and physical evidence. Um again I note that the ex in our own
ordinance in under additional criteria applicable to historic structures existing materials if they are the original materials of the original structure or remodeling which is being restored should be maintained and repaired rather than replaced. Uh specifically regarding roofing and siding materials, as we discussed
earlier, the original siding and roofing materials should be maintained or repaired and if replacement is needed, it should be of the same material and size. If the same material is not available, substitute material should be of the same size and same shape and size. Um, I could not find in the the
brief amount of time I had to research indication on what the original roof was, but it appears due to lack of cleaning and maintenance, its appearance has been obscured over time as it's been assessed as different materials over time. Um, but
>> I push back on I push back on a lack of Dominic, please. Sorry, this is >> Let me finish. Thank you. Um, and I'm talking about maintenance over a hundred years because this terracotta can last 50 to 100 years and this could be the
original roof. Um, I don't have documentary evidence to support that, but it is at least a historic roof. Um, skipping down to the comments and recommendations, staff recommends the commission consider
the following while conducting their review. Whether proposed project meets the secretary of the interior standards for the treatment of historic properties, whether proposed project is appropriate to and compatible with the existing structures and landscape of the Prospect Avenue Historic District. Whether the proposed project would
adversely affect the ambiance, character and appearance of the district. Whether proposed project preserves or enhances the historic or architectural val value and character of the structure. Whether proposed project would adversely affect the exterior architectural features and setting of the structure as well as historic and architectural character.
and whether the installation of Da Vinci synthetic slate roof shingles on 33 Prospect Avenue meets the conditions specified under 10 T10B 386 3BI or 3B1 rather and 10TB 386 3B5.
Uh I did not include there there were photos included in the application folder. I did not attach them to the report here, but I can pull those up if you need to see them again. >> No need. You're good. Um,
the Can you get back to the part about the Where was the 2017 survey from or >> It was a nomination. >> Okay. >> It was a report to designate the district.
>> Okay. That was that was just on your guys' end. I didn't know where that came in. Was that Was that Princeton? Was that you like Princeton that did that? the township or >> it was a national register nomination. It's available online. >> Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry.
>> It's how we designated this area as a district. >> Okay. Um the there was something in the previous application at the beginning that I thought applied, but it's it slipped
my memory. Um, so yeah, I guess we're just kind of asking where we go from here. Um, or where we are with the application process. I mean, I I was doing some research on the synthetic side of things and there there
is other colors that would be a red a clay tileish. There's actually a manufacturer that does um that does have a synthetic flat slab tile
um to mimic this. So, I don't know if we have to, you know, depending on what your guys' decisions are, I guess, is what I would is what my ne was what our next steps would be. I have a question also um Sarah and I
don't know whether this is relevant or not but I hope it is um and this would also be for Mr. Shreger as well. So I mean it would be really great you know for um for this eating club to replace the
roof and kind you know with the same tile tiles that uh there are uh there right now. It would be great to have a slate roof, you know, um over at 190. Um now, so are there any grants available from, you know, the state of New Jersey
that people can apply for for these repairs? >> Maria, I hate to interrupt you, but I really think that's out of our >> Not at all. Okay. >> It's just not our deal. >> Not our deal. Okay. So, we have nowhere to like drag people. Okay.
No. Um, I mean, I feel like this is a little bit the same issue that it's got a terracotta tile roof on it. If we have any reason to believe that, I don't think we have any reason to believe that
wasn't the original roof. And thus, if it needs repair, if it needs replacement, you replace it with a terracotta tile roof. And it's it's not, you know, the point
is not the point of historic preservation is not to create a matching so it matches the eating club next door or next door. I mean, they're all that's the beauty of that street is they're all kind of quite
different. Um, even if the majority of them have slate roofs, but but I I don't know. I feel like that. So, I'll stop there, but other comments, other input. >> I agree uh with Charlotte. I I think
it's um it it's it's kind of um interesting that today we have two almost identical situations and people feel they can just replace the um the roof with whatever they want because of maintenance. But um
we we have to we have to follow our guidelines. So, yeah, I think it's a no-brainer that >> in in fair in in fairness, I mean, we're not doing it with whatever we want. We're just we're we're here doing the application. It's not like we're out
there working right now. So, we're we're going through the processes and, you know, making sure everything's right on our end and your guys' end. You know, we're not, you know, we're not trying to get around anything, >> right? But I think you would have saved a lot of time, Dominic, if you had given Sarah a call, you know, and
>> yeah, you would have saved saved all of us a lot of time today. >> That usually what that's the process, you know, you call, you ask a few questions if you're not sure and and she would have guided you and um
you know, >> I agree. So, what are the options here to um to table this until we have some more information and a bigger uh >> proposal to look at? >> What more information do you need,
David? Well, I guess um other options of what materials could be used there, why um these terracotta tiles need to be replaced with slate. Um >> I don't think it was though.
>> What? >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> No, I think they should simply uh either and I don't know if that's exactly how it works, Sarah, but either withdraw the application or have us vote in vote
and they live with the result. I mean, >> well, is if we keep the application in and the vote goes the way that, you know, anyone would predict. Um, would that matter to submitting a
different application? Like I, you know, I don't want to like make anything more difficult. Is it easier for on your end if we withdraw it and then submit a whole new one and just be like, you know, hey, forget we were even here type thing. I I I don't I just don't know how the process works on your guys' end to
make it easier. I I think in the past we typically recom if we we are leaning towards denial that it it makes the most sense to withdraw the application and work with the historic preservation officer
and myself um to revise the scope of work that to something that is more likely to be approved or could be approved administratively if it's >> that's the route we'll take um and Freda or Sarah I'm going to take Freda up on calling you and
um uh going over um going over but before I do that I would I did one of the questions I did have generally here is the codes and stuff you were reading on you were reading off of where where can
I access those I again it was I I didn't have the time that I wanted to to to prepare and I just >> understood >> do it >> uh I can give me a call I can send you that information um I'll follow follow up. It is accessible through our
website, through the princ.gov website. Um, under the municipal code, >> the historic preservation ordinance. Um, >> that's probably enough of a of a >> the meeting, the calendar for today's meeting, there are links to each
application folder and my report is in there and the things I'm referencing are directly linked to my report. So, that's probably the easiest. It's >> more steps, but the most but that'll get me that'll get me to the entire you know >> yes document because I'm just
>> like that I just would rather see the whole thing. Okay, cool. I appreciate that. nj.gov municipal code. I'll stumble across something. Um >> Princeton NJ.gov >> and um yeah, I think that's about it. Um, I
guess I I mean I guess you guys have to think about some synthetic products for roofs if it's a yes or a no. And and because that's what I wanted to look up beforehand is if it was a yes or a no alto together, but I uh I I didn't find anything with my driving and googling.
So I apologize. >> Okay. Um so I'm going to put you down as withdrawn at the applicant's request and I look forward to working with you. Likewise. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate your time, guys.
>> Thank you. >> All right. Um, do we know if um the 405 Basin Street um application of those um that owner and consultant have come back into the room? >> I do not see anyone that appears to be
of that application. If you are here, if you are on the call as an attendee representing 405 Basin Street solar panel application, please raise your hand so I can move you to an a panelist. I I don't think they were. I saw
somebody pop up maybe an hour ago and then disappear. So, do we hear the application without applicant testimony or carry it? >> I think we should carry it.
>> I agree. >> All right. Then we have a concept review next. 8 Green Street. Um, as we all saw in the package, it's quite a complicated proposal and would like to hear from the um the applicant.
>> So, identify yourself to Sarah so she can um bring you in. Good. >> Can you folks hear us? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Sorry about the video. Uh, we should get
it going any second here. Is it starting guys? There. There it goes. Good evening. My name is Josa Yurburo. Uh I'm the sole member of Nomad Development LLC.
I've been a I'll give you a little bit of my background. I was born and raised in uh Mammoth County in a first Mongolian community in America. That's my first language. I grew up in the construction business my whole life almost five decades. I built
approximately started as a carpenter, a framer, rough framing. Uh built the largest framing contractor in the country. Uh I've lived in Princeton area, as I said, for four decades. Uh and uh I've I purchased this property
just a little over two years ago. And I know we submitted some uh I'm also joined by Richard Chzman who's our attorney of record and uh I believe our architects are on as well somewhere, right? >> Yes, sir.
>> So they're on as well. But uh I just wanted to explain what what happened with this property. We purchased it at the very beginning. We closed on I think it was the January of 2024. So a little over a year ago. Despite all the structural information, the the thing that happened to me is that I had uh
three surgeries within seven days of each other within a period of about three weeks consecutive weeks. I had open heart, had a ring implanted just a little over a year ago. Seven days later, they took out two feet of my large intestine. Then 10 days later, they had to do that again. So, I
survived that. That kind of delayed me on my project of building my own home in Princeton. So, uh this is how we've gotten where we are. And my original intention was to build this house and try to restore it. I got to know about
Inz Williams, the lady who lived there, and some of her family members on Green Street, trying to get a feel for the community. And then when we as we started to do inspections after the purchase, we uh we found lots of problems with it. uh even beyond the
structural the the air quality issue because I'm obviously I I that was my second heart surgery 35 years after my first one as a young man. But uh the air quality issues and the mold that's prevalent throughout the house and the
rotting of the interior members are are uh quite extensive. Uh we've had issues like uh we we actually the house was maintained. I know there are some things in the memorandum we received that were uh slightly off. Uh we did not own it
for four years. Uh it was just at the beginning of 2024 we closed and I told you what happened to me at by the end of 24 and into the beginning of 25. But um the the property was maintained with power, heat, electricity, all of that.
And uh in February, end of February, almost March, beginning of March, we had this past year, we had uh the water meter burst and uh flooded the basement with water, not not helping the the obviously our power and everything went
off. We uh it did not help the mold situation and the number of spores and the level and the amount of spores that are present. So you know what we were looking for is the demolition. so that we could start again. We're looking for guidelines on how we can accomplish that
because it's just not healthy. We we're by we had one uh we we even tried to get demo companies to come in. We had one uh give us their assessment, but one refused to work in there. He said if the prices we were trying to get was for removing plaster, stripping it down to
studying so that we could do remodeling. And as I said, I've been a framer and a carpenter my whole life. I designed furniture on the side. I'm also a conservationist. I've been a board member of the Paragan Fund that saved the Falcon from extinction for almost two decades now and also the Captain Planet Foundation that Ted
Turner started who's a friend of mine who just passed away uh two weeks ago. And uh so you know and I also have been very involved in community and preservation. I built the the number one eco lodge in the Gobi Desert of Mongolia because of my ancestral heritage. It's a
become a community center. It's quite well known for what it contributes to the local community and it was built like an ancient temple. I've also worked on projects with the World Monuments Fund and our architects Manini Duffy have been involved in historical restoration and Richard is obviously a
well-known attorney in the Princeton area. So, we're just looking for guidance. These concepts are not ones that I'm married to. I, you know, spent time and money and my own time on it and then of course had a little bit of a curveball thrown at me. But we are looking for guidance. The the building
itself, we we have photographs. You've looked at people look at it from the exterior as I did and went inside but didn't realize the extent of the mold and the rock that's inside the building. So that's why requested trying to demolish it. So that's where we're at.
If uh our architects would like to say anything or Richard >> uh Miss Maddox uh as you well know you you're a client derise it's power through the emissible land use law to stay in Jersey and um I note in Miss
Gwinland's uh memo they want uh a structural engineer to go through the building to support uh what the reports are that we submitted for for the application. I have no problem with that. But I do say under my
understanding of the case law under the municipal land use law state of New Jersey, if you want to have somebody uh you're you're welcome to uh look at it, but I think we're entitled under land
use law state to have notice of that and and a person a representative of the applicant be there at the same time and that the uh the engineer the I I suppose
would be a a mechanical engineer will put what his findings are on the record to make a full record of what he found structural >> who ising who was just previously speaking who was Richard
>> that was Mr. Mr. Chapman, the applicant's attorney, >> right? It's very hard to see all >> if if if that's you know, if if the I I would say if the commission wants to go that route, I don't think it would have any problems. Now, did you say mechanical or structural engineer? I
don't know. I heard some >> I don't know who you're getting. I don't you know, I I don't know. mechanical or structural engineer, you know, it's it's up to you, but it's got to be qualified. And we'll uh, of
course, when we have the full hearing, I I'm going to varum uh to see to what extent uh what his qualifications are. That's that's what uh the applicant has hired me for as I
do many times before municipal land use boards. You can ask uh you can ask Mr. Shmere and uh Ms. uh uh
Cetol. That's what I do. So uh that's all I do in my my practice. So I don't know who you're getting but I will be viring them or her I should say. >> May I ask a question?
>> Yeah sure. So when when the memorandum was composed, I think you you probably meant to ver since we submitted a structural engineering report. I would imagine that you're the what you're proposing is uh to get a another structural engineer to verify. >> No, you you are
>> that right. They're proposing that >> you you're you're proposing that >> uh mission >> points out the ordinance and what I'm saying is that under the miss because you have your authority through the municipal land use law of the state of
New Jersey that was enacted on August 1st 1976 um you the some of the law in my opinion applies and uh you don't derive your for instance you don't derive your power
through the police power or the omnimous clause of the 1947 New Jersey Constitution. You derive your power through uh 4055D hyphen 1. I believe it's section 4. I'm not quite sure. I
can't remember. But uh so what I'm saying is that that's I have no problem with it. But uh I I say that under that law that you derive your power that you must uh give us notice and a
representative must be uh uh a a representative of the applicant must be there uh to copy a comp to be with that whoever you select. Um and he puts his
findings on the record. So >> that's the law. >> So beyond that, if I might add, just emphasize that this is a place that I even as we speak, we have we're in the building business and this is for my own
home. It's not a speculative problem. >> No, he's living here. >> I'm Well, I'm not living there now, but I will. >> Right. That's my problem. >> That's the problem. The problem is he gave you a uh why he can't because of
the mold more so than the structural the mold. Um and maybe you want to get somebody as well to verify the terrible air condition there as he testified to.
He's had operations and he wants to live there but he can't live there with the mold. So, so you have to come to the conclusion that uh what he's doing for a demo is
s is has to be done because of his uh health condition >> and obviously the structural uh condition of the building if you get inside of it. We've discovered more after the water meter break that it's
it's all stone, random stone. there's no footings and obviously we want to repair and restore the house from a design standpoint. There are certain things that we've studied the zoning the the the the F all of that trying to comply without
seeking variations. There was another aspect that I also wanted to be considerate of is that the potential the park and I've had very good conversations with our neighbors the commercial building that arts council building next door. I I don't know the neighbors with the contemporary next to
this. We are kind of trapped between this commercial building and a contemporary building that's starkly different in design than even what I gave you some concept drawings of. And I think across the street there's a contemporary as well as a a house from the same period from the late 1800s into
the early 1900s. Uh we're committed to trying to create something provincial and a design that it looks like in the neighborhood. But when we look at the the the the feel and look of the neighborhood, it's been totally disrupted by these contemporaries. And there's I I saw something as a reference
to folk folk Victorian. I I think really it's a stretch because if you look down the street, there are certain uh embellishments that are made on the front porches and because of the demographics of the time. But I think Inz Wallace's history, what I was going to say is I wouldn't be
adverse and I would kind of be a nice project. There's a pocket park directly behind our our that property that's in disarray. People have been staying in vagrants actually using it as a bathroom the prop between the two fences. We
actually came in and cut down all of the bushes in between which was quite a tour in itself so that people wouldn't be sleeping in there and and uh the fellow Adam Welsh who runs or is the president of the arts council was attacked in the backyard by some people who were you
know look so there's I just think that park is in disarray. I saw a plaque on one of the chairs there that's rotted and falling off the shmer horns I think dedicated the chairs the benches there that are totally rotted their teak but they're they're you know literally have holes in them. I just thought that could
be part of uh what we could do for the community maybe commemorated and as you saw a concept that I I did not approve that we we just put it out there with a big sign. I thought that was a little blatant, but I think something could be done with that park there in conjunction
with our construction since we're doing that kind of the rellandscaping of it, improvements, and I proposed a wall in the back uh so that we could divided the park from and with some lighting to prevent that from becoming a place for people to sleep in or but you know, it's
not a problem you would expect in downtown Princeton, but that has happened and you can certainly call on Adam next door to verify. by what the things have been going on there. So that that's our story. I I I would love to have some guidance on because the health
conditions are my greatest fear. Even our people working in there that we've gone in several times, we've tried to salvage some of the boxes that were left behind by Anz's daughter. And so we've been able to salvage some boxes we want to turn over to the historical society. But our people can't work in there long.
There's there's mold everywhere. And uh you know, mold is a killer. It's a poison. And uh we've had issues with that. We're one of the largest suppliers of lumber. It it's something we take great pains to prevent from build allowing to enter into the homes that we
frame for developers. I'm not about to go into a home and uh won't be for I don't want to be forced to live in a home and try to restore a basement that's become a breeding ground for this mold. So uh demolition through two different experts told us is the best
solution. So what I'm trying to find out or determine what what are the conditions under which you would allow that and then also we would be welcome to hear some of the guidelines that for the design that we create to replace the house but that basement is unusable from
a structural standpoint and so the f meaning the foundation it doesn't have footings it's uh you could never build I mean I don't know how long the building will survive on top of it but so we certainly have it neglected it. We working in it is a hazard, but we could
use some guidance. >> Andy, if you're speaking, we can't hear you. >> Oh, Mr. Shzman, I just wanted to I never responded to your your concern and your request. So it really depends on the application that ultimately gets submitted. But if it's an application
for development that's going to go before a land use board and there is um you know concern on the commission's board and it wants to move forward with some sort of engineering or some additional um um
um work or or um >> professional test >> work professionals I'm sorry professionals on site then we'll definitely work with you. um we'll we'll coordinate and and make sure you know you are in the loop at all times on this. >> Thank you very much.
>> Sure. Of course. >> Are either of the architects or your team any other testimony being presented? >> Yes. >> Not testimony but presentation rather. >> Andy, we can't hear you. >> Andy Dolman is with Mancini Duffy, our
architect. Andy, we can't hear you. >> Lisa, have people been sworn in? >> It's uh >> Yeah, this is not a >> It's a concept. >> So, it's less formal. None none of this
is really binding. Um >> Okay. >> So, so no. >> No. Sorry. Andy's trying to talk. >> He's waving a lot, but just out of curiosity. So the memorandum I I was kind of surprised because we haven't had
any inspections or haven't had any really much. I thought that once we presented the concept we would get opinions on this but this is that the usual format in the SOP for for review and commission.
>> You haven't filed an application. So the conditions outlined in the memo are referencing what the HPC can do in regards to our ordinance as dictated by what application is filed and what review is then undertaken
there. We're not reviewing an application. We're discussing a concept. But I was I drafted the memo to give that information to the applicant yourself or rather the presenter um and to the HPC regarding
what falls under review for a demolition application. >> Understood. It also then went on to comment on the designs we presented. So that's something as I'm saying I'm certainly would love feedback but but and also
would love feedback on what the criteria are for demolition. I know there were some of those houses >> that was included in the in the memo the criteria for demolition. >> Well some are not nearly as clear. I don't know if that there was no mention
of the health conditions that and >> because that's not a criteria for demolition under the historic preservation ordinance. Well, that may be something we have to address. >> No, I I uh I don't know about that. >> It's not in our current preservation
ordinance. >> Well, >> understood. We we'll >> you're still subject to arbit arbitrary capriccious and unreasonable like any other board. So I mean they give courts
give deference to uh local boards uh but they can't be arbitrary unreasonable and capriccious and quite frankly as a legal matter and I've been doing this for 58 years if uh the ordinance
creates an a unreasonable capriccious uh condition. It's uh it's subject to uh review by a court of law. Not that we want to do that, but
you know, >> a problem with his health and a record will be made of that. It's part of the reason for demolition. And you can have your own um expert
quote unquote uh as I said before uh go through the house and come to whatever conclusion he or she comes to. >> Are you Yes. Okay. Adam, is that your
name? I'm sorry. >> No. Andy. >> Andy. Sorry. I I went with an um >> Can you guys hear me now? >> Hear you? Yes. >> Okay. Awesome. And so I'm Andy Dome and I work at Man City Duffy and Jenny Callahan is my partner. So we kind of
get sideways in this whole conversation to Joel's point. Yeah. The idea we're the building's not healthy. So the intent of this was just to have a meeting to talk to you guys about we by the way we both I own two historical buildings. So I'm kind of familiar with
the process understand the things that you guys are talking about. This is a little bit unusual because the building's riddled with mold. So there's things that could be dealt with structurally, but from a mold the health concerns to Jose's point are pretty severe. So we just really wanted to have
an open dialogue with you guys to understand like what do you do with things like this and how can we work together and is it possible to Joseph's point is what's involved if we need to tear the house down. What is it that we need to show
or you know demonstrate to you guys? >> I can go through my memo if you don't have other testimony or other presentations to bring forward. >> But Joel okay with that if you're okay with that. I mean I think the ideas and
what what got submitted was um just some context and we just had some preliminary floor floor plans that were done by others but it was more so to talk about here's an a conceptual an architectural style that Joseph was interested in. So the first lift is can we remove the
house? What's involved in removing a house? And then the second step would be we are going to design a new house understand the guidelines we need to follow from the architectural styles. So with that s I'll go ahead and let you talk. Can we see my screen?
>> Yeah. Yes. >> Okay. All right. So, as we've >> you want to see >> at this point, No Man Development LLC has requested a concept review for the complete demolition of the existing dwelling at 8 Green Street and the construction of a new building with an
ADU. The building is located in the Witherspoon Jackson Historic District on the south side of Green Street near the eastern end of the block diagonally opposite from the Paul Robinson House. The Witherspoon Jackson Historic District is primarily a residential district unique in Princeton with a period of significance that reflects the
development of one of the earliest African-American communities in New Jersey from 1830 to 1969. Green Street was laid out as part of the development of the Ferguson track in the 1840s and 50s and contains some of the earliest surviving houses in the district, including seven Green Street directly
opposite 8 Green Street. The district's cultural significance is represented through the built environment that developed over time in simpler vaccular styles due to the economic disparity, displacement, and discrimination. I included a brief uh description from the applicant's application essentially
stating the same that they want to demolish the existing building and build a new building with an ADU. In in support of the proposed scope of work, the applicant provided a number of reports detailing the unsafe conditions and structural unsoundness of the dwelling, including a structural
evaluation dated January 9th, 2024. Uh it is a professional opinion that to repair, renovate this home and bring it into compliance with the present code requirements would be a significant undertaking and extremely costly. staff notes um again that per T10B 3793, the
commission can request an independent professional to examine the structure um regarding applications for development. Uh if the applicant is alleging structural unsoundness of any portion of said structure as a reason for the demolition, the commission or board of jurisdiction may employ at the
applicant's expense pursuant to 10B32 a structural engineer or other professionals to examine independently said structure or part thereof and report to their findings to the commission or board of jurisdiction before any final action is taken by the board of jurisdiction. Uh in addition under the historic preservation
ordinance 10B 391 uh demolition the preservation plan review criteria for reviewing demolitions or moves of moving of structures. The demolition or moving of a structure in historic preservation zoning district shall be approved only if the structure cannot be put to a
reasonable use and its preservation will impose a financial hardship on the applicant. For residential properties, financial hardship is defined within the municipal code as with respect to owner occupied residential property. The inability of the applicant to continue owner occupied residential use without
the proposed work. As confirmed by property records, the applicant purchased the property a little over two years ago on January th January 31st, 2024. And based on the reports and documentation documentation provided by the applicant and supported this concept review, the residential property has not
been occupied since that time. Uh Mr. Levin said that this was from the GSSE industrial hygiene report. Mr. Levvin said that the property has been for the last four years which based on the timeline two of those years was owned by the applicant and that no maintenance
has been done on the home since then. Uh again, according to the industrial hygiene report, the HVAC system has likely been completely off since the home was abandoned. Based on the information, the applicant was aware of the costly structural repairs required
when the house was purchased and the dwelling has not been owner occupied since that time. Furthermore, the owner's lack of maintenance while the house is vacant, including but not limited to temperature control and weatherization of the building, most likely contributed to some of the concerns noted in the applicant's report. As illustrated in the National Park Service preservation brief,
mothballing historic buildings, lack of maintenance and neglect of vacant historic buildings could often lead to deterioration of the structure. Uh providing temporary protection and stabilization for vacant historic buildings can arrest deterioration and buy the owner valuable time to raise money for preservation or to find a
compatible use for the property. In regards to the proposed construction, uh generally it consists of a three-story stucco and stoneclad dwelling with metal balconies and large windows topped with a hip on gable slate roof with hip roof
dormers as well as a similar designed two-story ADU. It is staff's opinion that the concept plan for the proposed demolition and new construction does not conform with the secretary in the standards for the treatment of historic properties. Nor does it adhere to the municipal land use ordinance article 13
division 5 sections 10B3861 10B 3862 and 10B39 391. The existing building at 8 Green Street is a circa 1898 two-story side gable woodframe vernacular dwelling with folk Victorian influence detailing on the
full width front porch. The east side elevation features a second floor box bay window and the south rear elevation features a twotory cross gable rear L. Based on historic maps, the dwelling appears to retain its form and massing from its original construction. The dwelling has undergone some minor alter
exterior alterations including installation of vinyl sighting and the enclosure of the porch on the west side elevation of the rear L. However, the building still retains integrity of location, design, setting, workmanship, feeling and association that requ qualifies it as a contributing resource to the Withers and Jackson Historic
District. Therefore, the building's demolition would result in an adverse effect to the district. The proposed new new construction appears to borrow architectural influence from Dortha's house and the First Baptist Church, both found on the west end of Green Street. While staff recognizes that these
buildings are keen contributing and contributing resources to the Witherspoon Jackson Historic District, respectfully, they are institutional community and religious buildings, not dwellings. As noted above, the historic character that helps illustrate the cultural significance of the Witherspoon Jackson Historic District are the vernacular dwellings found throughout
the neighborhood. The overall residential built environment does not reflect high architectural style buildings, but rather small, simple vernacular houses with little architectural ornamentation. The proposed highly detailed and stylized three-story dwelling and two-story ADU is not compatible with the historic
materials, features, size, scale, and proportion and massing of the existing property, the streetscape, or the larger Weatherspoon Jackson historic district. The height of the proposed new construction is not visibly compatible and does not appear to be appropriate to the existing structures and landscape of the district. Therefore, it appears that
the proposed new construction would adversely affect the setting, ambiance, character, and appearance of the weatherman Jackson district. >> Thank you, Sarah. So, if I could comment on that memorandum,
uh, the the building proposed just the elevation as I told you that we're not married to, but it complies with the 35 ft zoning height, which is maxed out at 35 ft and so are some of the neighboring properties, including the contemporary
next door from a laser assessment of its height. So, when it says it's higher, I just saw one of the plans get approved earlier that that that home that addition uh was higher than what what we have and I know this from years of
working just by the scale of that elevation that I saw. So I and you know as far far as visuals go I I think we're looking for design feedback but the issue about the health we're well obviously it looks like it may end up
being a legal issue about whether that causes some hardship on me uh forcing me to do that the basement itself I'm h welcome to you even though I don't like the idea of us having we have another structural report we can submit as well that was also a negative one. Uh we uh
were trying to get he had a conflict in his schedule because uh we were trying to get our structural engineer to comment on this as well. But if you feel it's necessary for me to go to the expense of paying for you to get another structural engineer and that's something we'll do because that foundation I would
bet on that that that if you would maybe possibly some of the members of the commission would come and inspect. We had some visitors the other day. They did not. They peakedked in the window, tried to open doors. They came without announcing themselves. I spoke to
several people on the radio asking who they were, whatever. They wouldn't identify themselves. They said they were just just looking and then another person just said just curious while they were opening my screen doors. Uh, one one of them turned the knob and tried to
open the front door. I just wonder how that kind of behavior uh, you know, we're trying to follow the rules. submit whatever application we have and we have people coming to the door. I'm speaking to them on Ring camera and they don't and I recorded all of it. So I just I I'm trying to work with the town here. I
have health issues that I will have John's Hopkins verify you from rheumatology to cardiology and for you to say dismiss that as if it's no concern of the commission, I think there's some legal ramifications that potentially you'll have to uh because
I'm you know this was this is for my own home. In fact, as we speak, I just came out of attorney review on another property in Princeton we're trying to develop. That one is something we will develop for either friends or family or or we'll we'll make it a market home. But we also are concerned without
historical preservation committee oversight, maintaining some kind of flavor of the community. And so I I think the description of what we presented, we're we're trying to add some elements from the neighborhood, but we are committed to trying to do a design, but we also want to maximize. We
have an investment. I put a substantial amount of my personal funds, my life savings into this, and it it's going if you feel you've got to get another structural engineer, then so be it. But I think to just dismiss the the conditions and that's why the time was delayed and the power everything was
operating until the water company came and they had >> Yeah, just to to further clarify that >> he did not say four years. >> Um I'm I'm Mr. Lavin from the quote that said that the uh property had been vacant for four years. That wasn't um a
hard date at the time when I did the walk through with the hygienists who came and looked at the property. I kind of estimating the date. I knew that no one had lived there since the previous owner had died. I was under the impression it was about four years ago. I just recently learned it was a little over three years now.
>> Since the person passed away, since passed away. >> And as far as maintenance goes, we The reason that I came in on the building when I found that the basement was flooded was because I was sent there to check on things to make sure that the
heat was still working, that there were no issues. And then when I came across the water that was pouring out of the meter, that's when I turned everything off and we've left it off since then. So, um, yeah, the timeline with the
vacancy, I I may have just been wrong with the years. It was actually three years, but we have been doing maintenance since we purchased the property. So, so without even aside from that, Mike, that's just a mistake or
misinterpretation. But, uh, I would welcome instead of people looking through windows or poking at doors or or looking at the exterior, I would welcome them. This makes it sound as if the house was inhabitable. I dare anyone to spend a night there that comes in and sees that house. I I I refuse to have my
people working there because it's unsafe conditions. So, I don't think that's something that should be taken lightly. I think mold is a serious issue, but the structural condition of the building, if you'll go down there, even a layman can go into that basement and see that foundation. I saw the Robersonson house itself on the corner with this Princeton
guild or whoever is working on that, which they've been working on for I think six or seven years now, attempt to restore that rubble stone foundation. It's called the rubble stone foundation. They tried to restore using the original foundation. Then they ended up tearing that all out. This is in the two years
since I've owned it. and putting in block foundation and then putting the stone on the exterior as a veneer. Um I'm I'm Look, we're not here to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. We've invested a substantial amount the carrying costs on it while I was laying in intensive care after three visits
every week for a period of of a month within a month. Uh that that certainly gave me a little bit of a detour. So nobody's intentionally abandoning anything. It's uninhabitable. It remains that way. We're trying to get this thing moving. So, we'd like all the help we
can get and advice and direction, but we uh it's time now I I feel strong enough to try to pursue the project of being able to build something there that I can live in for the rest of my days. I've been in the area, as I said, for 40 years plus. And uh it's where I choose
to be. We are continuing to make investments in the area. We again look we need we could use some guidance. If your position is that doesn't matter. >> So we'd like to hear what what the possibilities are here. If you're saying there's no possibilities of us
demolishing that house and I have to renovate it then we we'll have to we'll have to address that >> whatever we thanks thanks Joseph Sarah. I think I'll turn it back to you. I just you've heard like I said that the the
majority of this is meant to be about the health. So they did have been maintaining the building to Michael's point. So I don't just I don't want people thinking we're trying to pull the wall over anyone's eyes. We're just trying to it's just rehabilitating the
building is extremely costly. So we're just here to get some guidance from you guys. Do we have any comments from the commission before we go to public comment or do we want to go to public comment first um
>> what's your public comment what's what's your >> uh so opening public comment first name I see is Gail I am promoting you to an attend to a panelist rather Gail, you're muted. >> Hello. Yes.
>> Yes. Got you. >> Oh, good. Good. All right. Um, nice to meet all of you. This is my very first time joining um the historic commission zoom. Um I am joining as a
Princeton resident. I've been here 35 years and the reason I'm joining is that just recently um I live on Valley Road. I learned about an approved ADU design that's being developed next to me. So,
I'm really just joining to educate myself a little bit how this process works. Um, understand what development's going on in our community because I don't know uh what's I haven't seen your
design plans. Um, and I forget your name um the the gentleman who owns a property, but I commend you for even checking with your neighbors on your design. I think that's pretty unusual and I think that's really um I think
it's really wonderful. Um I wish I wish you were my neighbor because that didn't happen to me. And what I learned I don't know how big your ADU particularly is but mine um on 150 foot length lot is 68 feet
long one continuous structure 20 feet high. So, it is surprising in scale and mass. And again, it it's going to cover 100% of my backyard. They are facing it
towards my yard. So, I will have a front door and six windows looking directly at me. So, I guess um for this commission, I'm curious beyond what this applicant is
doing, how do you guys work with the zoning board? And if that's a conversation, Sarah, I can call you and set up a meeting. >> I think this is this is better served for conversation. Um, also Gale, I'm not sure. I mean, I I'm perfectly off open
to a call and discussion. Um, but based on what I'm looking at in Valley Road, it's Valley Road isn't an historic district. >> Nope, it's not. I didn't know if whatever ADU zoning that I have learned changed in the last couple years. Again,
I'm I'm only a few weeks into this. I'm not an architect. I'm not a builder. I'm not a designer. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a zoning person. I'm not an engineer. I'm just me. So, I just wanted to know how the design you're putting forward. How
do I get to see those designs? Because I am curious because it feels like you're being thoughtful about the design that you're working on. So, I really just wanted to, you know, take a look at that for my own um >> anything that's brought before the commission or the zoning board is
uploaded to the Princeton website. Uh per the open public meetings act. Zoning is we are not always virtual. We were doing this because of the holiday. We are usually in person. Uh but the zoning board is always virtual. But regardless, all of the meeting materials will be uploaded to the website.
>> Yeah. All right. No, I think that's really great. But yes, I'm just on behalf of uh you know the public here to try to understand specifically around the ADU, the scale, the mass, the sizing, all of that. So um yeah, I'll
take a look for that and then I guess I'll just touch base from time to time when you all are reviewing things. But again, um to the Nomad Development folks, uh yeah, I think it's nice that you were checking in with your neighbors. So thanks for doing that. Gail, thank you for your comments and I
think there are some strict standards about ADUs and there are limitations on what you can do. So that sounds pretty huge. It sounds larger than the home I'm proposing. >> I would invite you to stop by anytime. 58 Valley Road. I would love to show you
what's happening. Yes, as I understand it, it's the longest one ever approved. So, yay for me. Anyway, um thank you all. I learned a lot. This was fun. continue with your meeting. >> Thank you, Gail. >> Um Sarah, do we see anybody else in the
audience? >> Yes, I saw Annabelle next, then Yina, then Louise. >> And Sarah, do we know that the the person that's admitted is >> other >> commenting on this concept review?
>> They >> different issue. >> They should. >> I mean, that's I Yes. Um that's >> Yes. No, I'm I'm commenting on this um review. I am at Seven Green Street. Um I
am a neighbor opposite um 8 Green Street. I'm also a preservation architect, but I'm not um speaking in that capacity. Although I am very knowledgeable and I follow and meet the appendix A 36 CFR part 61 sector
interior standards for preservation architects. >> Annabelle. Annabelle. >> Yes. This is This is Yaya. Do Do you want me to go first? >> You can. Yes. Go ahead. >> I'm sorry. I put my hand in, but I didn't know when you put yours in. Thank
you. I'm sorry. Committee Commission. Um, we have a lot to say. We are neighbors and we've tried to divide this up uh in the last minute as I was disappointed that this meeting was changed from Thursday to Tuesday a day
after a holiday um and is only available um remotely. So it doesn't give us an opportunity to give you as much information that we have to share with you and our opinion. Anyway, um so I apologize that it may be a bit long. I'm
not going to do all the citations because Sarah's report uh was excellent and had several of those uh pieces in what I was going to say with regard to the historic value. Um again, you know, I'm Yina Moore.
My family has owned a house I live in at 19 Green Street for over 80 years. My grandparents and later my aunt owned the property at 28 Quar Street since the turn of the previous century before it was sold. Uh with the Spring Jackson's historic
district was proposed by a group of eight neighborhood and greater community residents of which I was one along with Mr. Nuland, who is your counsel is on uh who was later involved in the sale, as I understand it, of 8 Green Street as a
realtor. Until designation about 10 years ago, the Witherspoon Jackson neighborhood was being inundated, subjected to ruthless demolitions, new structures that were not consistent with the character of the neighborhood, and in most cases were built on spec by
developers targeting the highest paying biders. Ultimately, the designation was based on the work amassed by one of your commission members, Shirley Satderfield, about the residents of and the historic
events within the neighborhood and the comprehensive data compiled by the wise report in 2015, which categorized buildings over 75% of which were contributing buildings. 8 Green Street
is one such structure and noted as number 141 given that all properties were given numbers. It is described as being and and Sarah gave definition built in 1893 very significant within the period of
significance for this district 1830 to 1969. um historically uh met the definition of contributing building and an excellent uh example of vernacular and gable. Um by the way I
think the applicant mentioned the two adjacent properties to which he is creating context for any design in the future. neither uh are appropriate to have referenced nor the Dorthia house which is not a house by the way
architect um and the two contemporary buildings that he's referenced were pre the designation uh the historic designation of this uh neighborhood. So they do not uh fit the character of the neighborhood and should not be
replicated. A contributing building uh site, structure or object adds to the historic architectural qualities. the historic association or archaeological values for which a
property is significant because it a was present during the period of significance as was stated and possesses historic integrity reflecting its character and b that time or is capable of yielding important in uh information
about the period and it independently meets the historic the national register criteria. The wise report um that the takeaway from this in terms of protecting the Witherspoon Jackson neighborhood from the scourges that I
described earlier vis Princeton's historic preservation ordinance um contains many important that the neighborhood contains many important buildings that should be protected together with their subtle historic features size and massing lot sizing
proximity location and orientation that they create. Um, it's a cohesive setting that may be unique in Princeton. Um, and given the neighborhood's history, the setting is significant. And while perhaps the majority of its individual
buildings are not from a technical analysis arch architecturally significant. Um, just to clarify for the previous uh commenter, there was no checking with neighbors about any proposed demo or
design. Um we received this information via the uh website the municipal website in this in this meeting. Earnson conservation ordinance was already read by um Sarah. Thank you very much with
regard to the criteria for gaining approval to demolish a building. um and that is the structure cannot if the structure cannot be put to a reasonable use and its preservation will impose a financial hardship.
Lastly, um there is a property and this this neighbor was not able to attend at the last minute. So, I would like to just read this letter from uh one of your members, former chair of the HBC, Julie Capazolei, who summarized the foundings
of a review of an application for the restoration of 20 Green Street, a comparable property that was vacant for almost 30 years and in a greater state of disrepair of no fault to their new owner. And that report to the zoning
board dated August 29th, 2018 stated HBC concluded their findings and recommendations by again underscoring the importance of this application that application that would be considered by your board. neighbor comments and the commission's findings
all agreed that the restoration and new construction plan proposed by the applicants for that property in the Witherspoon Jackson historic district represents an outstanding vision for the historic district as to how existing structures can be saved and restored
without demolition. The proposed application will prominently or prominently displays the essence of the original building and retains the historic fabric of the house which honors the property's place in the
neighborhood and each property in the neighborhood collectively contributes to the significance of the Withersp historic district. that owner has a has compiled a book of the pre-existing condition of uh and I'm just going to
show you one of the photographs if you can see the uh nature of the interior of that house that had a hole in the roof. So it was getting rain in it for 30 years. Um, and there, you know, are hazmat crews that come in and and um
obviously have to uh remediate conditions. I'm an asthma sufferer. I know exactly what you're talking about, but there are ways to to dehumidify, demold, and um reconstruct to create a safe environment. So
therefore, in closing, for these and other technical design issues that my neighbor Annabelle, who will follow me, um will make, it is inappropriate for the commission to allow for the
demolition of 8 Green Street. Thank you. >> Thank you, Jana. Um Annabelle, are you going to pick up from here? >> Yes, I will. Um, so thank you for having me. Um, I am, as I said, resident of 7 Green Street, opposite 8 Green Street, and I have met, um, the owner, a very
nice gentleman who did, when we first met, promised that they were going to restore the building and move into it. I was delighted with having a new owner who was keen to preserve the building and restore it. Um, I am a preservation architect and I am I do meet the secret
interior standards for conformance. So I do have a sort of knowledge base that might be a little higher than um local residents. I am representing myself as a local resident here and as a neighbor opposite um 8 green street. Um I will say I have reviewed all the reports in
great detail um I have I I have to say since I bought my property in September a little after you did um I have not noticed one person enter the building. No windows have ever been opened. Nothing has been removed from the
property whatsoever, including bedding, fabric, all kinds of materials, all of which in any house, modern or old, would have created a festering environment for mold. I also noted that the mold reports, and while I'm not a mold specialist, um I do deal with buildings
with mold and with um inspections for mold on many buildings. The most recent was the Lennox House, which was um flooded um after a fire. Um but there is um we have no mold in that building any longer. It is perfectly removable. Um it
does involve some investment in cleaning but it could be a perfectly healthy um environment to live in as my house now is having restored it. It had also been neglected for three or four years. I would say that the structure engineers
reports are a little worrisome because in 2024 the owner was told there were leaks and there was damage to the building, none of which was remediated. And then with the loss of heating and air conditioning and ventilation because all the windows remain closed since I
have moved into my property. Um that has all fested and created more of a problem. Um the structure engineering reports are really very mild. Um and when we think of our 18 in of snow this summer um this winter rather last winter
with no signs of detrimental deflection to the building structure um I would really question whether there is any major structural repairs and as a framing contractor um I'm sure the reinforcement of existing the existing
structure um could easily be be handled with the expertise you already have in your field. So, I think that um lack of maintenance and I hate to say it, demolition by neglect, which is sort of what we're looking at here, I don't think warrants a reason to demolish a
building. The streetscape is historically very important. And by adding your building next to a modern building that the the residents, to be honest, feel tricked, they were tricked into um thinking that somebody was going to move in. And I'm afraid um this
scenario is now being repeated. So were very sensitive um to this issue. Um I would be very isolated as the oldest property on the street from 1840 and having meticulously restored the federal style facade to my property. Um I I I do
not want to look at um a modern structure and it also bifocates um the historic streetscape by removing um your historic building. So, it would be very sad to see um a loss of this important
historic structure and this streetscape. And I would be happy to talk to you, try and help you and guide you. Um I think it's very much a building that could be saved and restored and you could have a very healthy good life there. And I think you should put an ADU on the back.
I'm very supportive of that if that's something you want to do. Um the rubble stone walls can easily be restored and repaired. Um, and you mentioned um, next door. I had also advised them of that as well, but they didn't do it at the Paul Robson house. In fact, I did the mortar
analysis for them as a pro bono to help them with that process. They chose not to do it, which was unfortunate. But your building is not in bad disrepair compared to 20 Green Street. Um, and I think if you came and looked at some of the properties that have been restored
like 20 Green Street, and you're very welcome to come here as well, I think you might be inspired to save this building and preserve it. And I and I hope the commission will um, you know, consider that. Um, I did do a little graphic of it. Um, if you if I'm allowed
to share that. Um, I don't know Sarah whether that's appropriate or not, but I'd be happy to share what what your house could look like and and what it looks like now if that's possible. >> Please, >> you can share. >> Let me see if I can do my share screen and I'll um I'll bring it down to this
one. So, um, this is Can everybody see that? >> No. Let me just try again. One second. Yep. >> Yeah. So, as you can see, this is the house now. And then what I did was a little bit of AI work here. Um, and this is what your house could look like,
which really would be lovely to have. Um, and you know, I I find that people along the street are so proud of seeing the restoration and people compliment me all the time on the work I'm doing on the house. It's not completely complete yet. I don't have huge resources, but
I'm working on on restoring. Um, I've got some painting to do this summer. Um there are also some very good environmental things you can do like using lindseidor paints rather than plasticized paints which are environmentally very unsound. So I would love to you know collaborate with you
help you in some way. I I don't do residential work but I do a lot of historic houses for the public and um I know what it takes. It is a big investment, but I think you have the capacity to do that and hopefully the will and enthusiasm to preserve um this
um wonderful streetcape and this this lovely um street that we have and I think we can make the building healthy for you. Um I think the environmentalists can do that and I certainly have people you could consult on that if if you need some help with that. So that's my recommendation not to
demolish the building. It would be a great shame and um I hope the commission will will hear our concerns and I don't know whether Louise is available as well. She was hopefully going to be available but she may have a music class. >> Yes, I see Louise is our another. I am
going to put Annabelle and Ya. I'm going to drop you back into attendees. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And I will I don't think I did that right. Well, I'm still here. >> I It moved. You moved on me. Okay, there
we go. Thank you. >> Sarah, do you see anyone else? >> Uh, I think Louise, you are our last one. So, go ahead when you're ready. >> Yep. You have two for one. >> Two for one. >> This is Ted Mccclure and beside me is my
wife, Luis Mccclure. >> Can you speak up a little bit? It's a little hard to hear you guys. >> My name is Ted Mccclure. Beside me is my wife Louise Mccur. We have lived at number 13 Green Street since the 1980s.
>> Right. >> And we we have uh also um a rubble foundation which we have successfully uh restored with the help of a um masonry
company by the name of >> Pan. We're finished, right? >> No, someone's speaking. I'm gonna mute you guys. >> Um the the stone foundation was just irregularly
shaped stones piled on top of each other. Um, and we restore that uh by having a company apply um mortar from the inside and and also digging a little bit and putting mortar
on the outside. Um, but the house has stood successfully for uh 20 years since we did that. Um, I don't think that's a terrible financial hardship on anyone to deal with that kind of foundation. We we
see number eight green street from our windows and from our front porch. Um, and it's my opinion that uh number eight has the most beautiful front porch >> on our block and probably among the most
beautiful in the entire historic district. So, um, in addition to the all the other architectural attributes of the house, uh, that front porch, um, absolutely needs to be preserved.
>> I just wanted to add that our rubble basement does not have footings and it stood it was 18 >> 1870 >> 70 1868 something like that. We've never
there's no structural problems. So you if it's solidly built, you don't need the footings. And I think that's probably true for Annabelle's house. It's probably true for a number of the houses on this street. Doesn't have footings. It's just the stone.
So that's what I've got to say. Great. Thank you both. um given the the hour and that um I I don't think that the commission is ready to accept the idea of demolition
and then to review a new house infill. I'm not sure where we go at this point. Um, I think there has been comments that could be useful to the applicant. I think there's a lot of things still to
understand. And I also um think that uh some of the um tone of the earlier part of the meeting is something that uh commission
members and our council need to discuss. Um, I don't know how else to um proceed at this moment. If Lisa or Sarah wants to comment or if there's a commission member that would like to offer something at this moment,
that would be helpful. Okay. >> I'm just sorry. I'm sorry, David. I'm Lisa. I'm just looking at the um the uh concept review requirements. So, you know, I guess at this point the the
commission's role is really it's just it's it is very much informal. Um I would say in terms of the legal issues obviously um you know there are legal there will be legal questions and that's just the nature of any kind of
demolition requests for um permission to demolish uh historic structure. the uh you know I I will say that you know there are standards that that Sarah did site in her report and those will be
employed in in in in reviewing any future application. Um the you know Sarah reviewed what was before her and has given some preliminary thoughts and of course they're not binding. Um hopefully they
will be useful for the applicant. Um, you know, obviously I I mean, I can speak for myself and I don't know if I'm overstepping, but I don't, you know, I don't the commission's not trying to be difficult or getting get into a legal battle, but it does have a job to do and
there are standards that the commission will abide by. Um that said, you know, one of the goals of these concept review uh reviews is to facilitate discussion between the potential applicant and the
commission and it's, you know, at a public meeting. So, you know, a goal is to really start to facilitate that discussion. you know, is there, you know, I mean, I'm just spitballing and this is, you know, I'm I'm not obviously a commission member, but is there the
potential to use the exterior of the building so it's it's preserved? Um, you know, these are kinds of the kinds of questions I think maybe and I don't know if it's at a future meeting that if if if the commission wants to carry this,
but the these are the kinds of questions that it is possible that maybe the parties can engage in. So, I don't I mean, just because Sarah took what was given to her and made an assessment, but from a very informal and preliminary standpoint doesn't mean that that's the
end of the story because there is there are legal standards and and they're they're in the the town's code and that the commission will follow those those provisions. So, you know, there's and there's room for discussion obviously
and because that's the goal of this process. It's there's there's no firm decision that's been made because that's not the purpose of a concept review. Concept review is is a good a good opportunity for the parties to start discussing potential. So, I'm just
throwing throwing that out there. I mean, I don't think, you know, Sarah, I don't know if you've had situations where there have also been subsequent meetings to concept review. I I don't know, you know what, you know, I I think
from from a legal perspective, the fact that the applicant filed a concept review is a really good thing. And you guys can you're not just getting the application without the concept review. And the applicant has stated numerous times that he wants he wants feedback and he wants to have a
discussion and maybe what gets done is going to look different than what is in the concept review. But I think to have a really productive conversation it it'll take both both sides. That's you know just throwing that out there. >> No, I I I agree that the um the concept
review is always helpful. I would prefer multiple concept reviews to sort of work this out before we get to the application stage. Uh I will say that another hand went up in the public if we did want to take another public comment at this time. Um I'm going to promote
Andrea >> to a panelist. Andrea, if you wanted to make a public comment, just need to unmute yourself. She's there. >> Can you see me? Hello. Can you hear me? Hi. Hi. Yes. Sorry for the delays. Hi
everyone. Good evening everyone. Um I live at 31 uh Green Street with my family and I just wanted to just quickly say that when we moved to uh Greenpoint what? Greenth Street. >> Green Street 15 years ago, right? About
>> no 20 21 years ago. >> Oh, sorry. Close to 21 years ago. One one loses track of track of time. But um we watched the metamorphosis of 20 Green Street. Um and it was a home in terrible disrepair. I know that this was
mentioned before with crumbling steps and water pouring in through the roof for for many many years. My my children were little. I was like, "Please don't play on the steps. You know, you'll get hurt, etc." And it is an elegant, gorgeous uh home today. And so I feel
like that was with the guidance of uh the commission that's here this evening. It was a win-win situation for everyone. It was a win for the historic, you know, nature of uh for our whole district. It
was a win for the family that got to that built such a beautiful beautiful home and a big addition to the back. And it's completely with all the best high highest quality materials and modern amenities inside. Um and so I feel like
um I with 8 Green Street, no one's been there for years. When you go by I it was it's been a mystery. And um I feel that the the price point at which it's sold I mean implies to me that there are
resources behind uh this this purchase that where it this could be another win-win situation and it doesn't have to be um sort of a uh >> a tear down. >> Yeah, just a tear a tear down. People
come to our block and they're like this is so special. They can't put their finger on why the streetscape is so special, but it's special because um ever since uh the whole neighborhood is looking better and better ever since uh it it became a historic district with
you know there are and there are just you know so many um you know I I I mean materials available today that are both modern but that in keeping with a certain amount of style and taste um that I I just I really
would be uh really a loss that I think that that house is gorgeous, you know, and it doesn't seem to me like it's caving in or falling apart. And um and it does look like you you know when you're standing before it and you're across from a historic s cemetery and um
the Paul Robson house is almost done and this is a very special place. You can't just do any um you know I don't I don't I know this was just a concept and the the new owners are saying these they want feedback but you know I I I feel
that kind of and I'm not an architect like many of the former speakers are but that looks like a a stone house that like Spanish hienda style from suburbia. It completely doesn't match the entire neighborhood. So, um, I I I I hope this
can turn into a win-win situation for all concerned. Thank you. >> Thank you, Andrea. >> I I feel like a lot of feedback has been given, a lot of concern about what people are hoping to have on the street. And I I feel like kind of pursuing the
conversation this evening with the um concepts that have been brought to us. >> I don't know. I don't know where we could go. We could we could keep discussing things or um >> I think David the uh the first lift is
the uh the I think we heard you guys. I think there's a big push to try and restore the home. I think to Jolster's issue is just going to be the health and then the financial cost of doing it. I don't know what that financial what is
the what's the financial hardship you know that's maybe a question >> I'll take it over from here if you don't mind uh I've heard many comments on about resources and what's feasible what's not feasible what's what's uh fi
financially feasible or not I am committed to exploring and I think I appreci I appreciate the suggestions from Ena and Annabelle and and and our our last speaker, Andrea. So, it's not something you take lightly. I think the rendering that Annabelle shared with
us was extremely attractive. I'm not set on the concept. I meant that. Uh we we invested some time and effort into that. As far as people's assumptions about what that's really not anyone else's concern. We're going to we're going to look at what really it'll cost to do this. And you know, when you talk about
standards that you're trying to follow, you have standards and I'm trying to follow them. You can't then just tell me that rubble stone foundations. I build foundations and I build homes and I build projects every day and I can't put invest more hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on top of a building without a
footing. So there's some basics here and and then there's there's my health concern is my primary concern. But there is ways to remediate things. But it is a a matter of what's really feasible. I would never decide what you people can invest from your pockets or look in your
pockets. I don't expect anybody to make assumptions about me. I grew up with an outhouse in my backyard in Mammoth County. I didn't have indoor plumbing till I was in kindergarten. So, I'm going to tell you, nobody's going to teach me about what I can or can't spend. What's feasible is for one person
is not feasible for another. It's unfair for anyone to make assumptions about any of that. So, but I really do like some of the design ideas and I would love to create a win-win situation. So, it's not something we're that's going to fall on deaf ears. my architects on the phone.
Uh the foundation is of critical importance to me. The cost of raising a house to build a proper foundation, all of that has to be taken into consideration. I'm not I don't have the time. I I'm still buying green bananas, but I'm not here uh going to be doing this stone by stone by hand anymore. So,
it's something we have to do the proper way to build a proper foundation uh and and to to add more and make greater investment on top of it. I appreciate the support for ADUs from some and then others don't like it. Look, it trying to please everyone is a difficult task. We
want to please as many of the people and certainly the neighbors and and and our are the people I have to live next to. Uh and I was fully aware that the two contemporaries that are built on the street that do look I feel also certainly out of place were built before
the HBC took over and I think in 2016. So, I think uh you know, it's understandable. You can't be blamed for that being approved or whatever the the policy was. I didn't look at this just as a tear down from the get-go. So, my my the jury is not out on it. We we
we've got to go back to our drawing board a bit, but I think uh I'm also going to be getting legal advice and I'm going to be getting medical advice and uh and and I've got some people on my team to talk to. So, I'm about to be gone for a little while. I have to be
for therapeutic reasons. I'm going out to the desert. That's something I've learned from the ordeal I went through that I'm not going to sacrifice that for anybody or anything. And I'll do whatever I have to do to protect myself. But it's it that's far greater to me
than any investment I'm trying to or or and I'm not looking for a house to flip. I've obviously sat on it for two years. I want to do the right thing to to whatever is a rational, reasonable level of investment. So, but I do appreciate all the input. I even liked Annabelle's
design. I'm not married to that, but it it I don't I built a lot of 80% of Havanians, Toll Brothers, all these major developers. Avalon Bay, we built and supplied all the material lumber for the train station, the apartments there. We built things. We're not the
developers. We don't design them. If I only built things that I found aesthetically appealing or or whatever, we we'd be sitting at home. But but the bottom line is this is my home and I do want to have rapport and camaraderie with the neighborhood and I think there is a culture there that's worth that's
worth preserving. And by the way, Annabelle, your comments about not seeing anybody enter that house, then you you you must not be there at the right time. If he's taken over dozen full huge boxes out of just artifacts and that would might have been because of my delay in the curve balls I got
thrown to me. I wanted to inspect every piece of memorability that came out because Inz's daughter did not have the time to get in there. She the closing was uh was she said she had enough time, but she's elderly herself. So, we've packaged those. I have a whole bay in a
garage here that that's filled with some of those boxes and we still have more to get out. So, that that's something I may have delayed, but it's certainly not from neglect. and all of the utilities were on until that thing happened in March, beginning of March or end of
February when that so uh uh look and we th those conditions existed there. There was no first floor bathroom and we Inz lived on the first floor for the longest time, right? Was ambulatory, couldn't go up the stairs, I think. And so I'll just
leave it to your imagination and I welcome uh any members of the commission who want to come in and see the house and the condition as far as rather than speculating or having to poke in windows. Happy to meet them. If I can't meet them myself, one of our team meet them. You can take a look inside. We
actually are planning to turn over all these boxes. I want to sort through there's uh there's some things I think that would be of great importance and value to the family that so uh so look however you folks as you said and I appreciate Lisa and Felisa your comments
and it is a conceptual review and I do take all the comments to heart. we you you you want to please as many people as we can and try to follow the guidelines and but we have to look at all of our options as well. So I do appreciate your time and I don't mind coming back with
another concept. This is a place I want to spend you know h call my home. So I want to do it right. You may not believe this, but I've rebuilt a few. I've built many built many literally tens and tens of thousands of homes in the last 50 years throughout the state of New Jersey
in a couple of neighboring states. I've never designed and re built my own home. It's been redesigned, right? But so this this is uh not something I'm committed to. I think you can we there's there's always options. The health is the number one concern and we'll we'll look into
this. We have two reports on the air quality, right? So, I I uh anyway uh >> Thank you. Thank you. And good luck on your trip out west to get some good air and we'll look forward to hearing from you in the future.
>> It's been an interesting evening. Thank you very much. >> Thanks for your time. Have a good night. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, guys. Okay. >> Okay.
>> Sarah, do we have any other items that you want to bring up? >> No. >> I have just one item I would like to bring up that's kind of fun and nice and it it actually goes back to some of the work that um Roger and Charlotte and and
Emily have been working on just you know image and promotion of what historic preservation is. what we do, why we're here. And I noticed recently a very nice repair being made to some damage that happened to one of the gate posts or entry monuments at at the drum thwacket
back driveway. And um we thought maybe that kind of goes with the story Roger's been preparing on on drum thwacket. Maybe a little sidebar that just says, you know, thank you to whoever for getting that done. And that's the only thing I have right now. Does anybody
else have anything tonight? I thank everybody for their patience and participation. And um >> is there a motion to adjourn? >> Move. >> Motion we've ever gotten. >> Unanimous
>> motion to take a shower. >> I have to walk my dog. >> All right, we are adjourned. Good night everybody. >> Good night. >> Good night. >> Good night. Have a good night.