good evening and welcome this is a regular meeting of the Princeton planning board on Thursday April 4th 2024 pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the resolution of regularly scheduled meetings of the planning board of Princeton for February 2024 through January 2025 a copy was filed with the clerk of Princeton on Jan January 8th 2024 legal notice on the adoption of said resolution was published in the January 12th 2024 edition of the Princeton packet notice of this meeting has also been posted to the municipal website Princeton nj.gov calendar notice that all regular and special meetings of the Princeton planning board will be held electronically via Zoom was transmitted to the Princeton packet and the times and was filed with the clerk of Princeton on Tuesday January 17 2023 please note that this meeting is being recorded during hearings on applications for development members of the public will have an opportunity to comment and ask questions questions may be asked after an applicant's Witnesses have testified public comment is heard by the board after an applicant's Representatives have finished their presentations and have been questioned by board members and staff those wishing to comment when the time comes um those wishing to comment orally should virtually raise your hand by clicking on the reactions button or the raise hand icon at the bottom of your Zoom screen or if participating by phone by pressing star n oral comments will be taken in the order in which hands were raised we ask with respect that members of the public express your views in three minutes or less a countdown clock will be used to help speakers keep track of time and speakers who exceed three minutes will be interrupted inappropriate public comment containing obscenity hate speech or relating to matters not before the board will be muted excuse me um Carrie Phillip will you call the role please certainly Mr bodimer here miss capoli here Mr Cohen here Mr M Allen here miss Nuka Mr odonnell here miss pearlmutter sorry about that here miss sax here Mr Taylor Jack you're oh here sorry Miss Wilson Anderson here Mrs Wilson here we have a quorum thank you [Music] um first up we have announcements are there any announcements from board members or staff not seeing any hands go up um next on the agenda is subcommittee reports I don't think we have any this evening is that correct Carrie and Justin yeah none this evening okay um so we have an application hearing for RB homes LLC this is continued from February 22nd this is a preliminary and finer final major site plan with variances it's at 375 and 377 tune road block 7401 lots 4.01 and 4.02 and this is file number [Music] p2323 d309 um so Mr leco will you sort of set the table by reminding the board um what were the issues that were issues and questions left to answer and uh resol resolve this evening um and then after you finish I I will turn to um Mr Bridger and Mr Weissman because they didn't up updated engineering and Zoning report so they can hit the high points of that too certainly Madam chair oh excuse me Mr meller please yeah just a quick question for Jack and and Freddy um Have you listened to the tape of the first session I have I have not but Freddy you have I have and I signed the affidavit okay good great um Jack okay well Jack congratulations you have a free night bye bye yeah um thanks for for showing up for announcements and uh well I I told him he could still he could still participate just not vote oh oh okay well up to you Jack thank you I think I'd like to stay if I may oh sure um okay uh Jerry thanks for that is there any other anything else you need to do I know you need to swear in well I guess you've already sworn in Justin and our yes others for this um application okay thanks yep thank you madam chair and good evening uh board members and members of the public um just a reminder that this application is at 375 tur Hune Road and is a site plan application to build 24 uh market rate tow houses and six designated affordable apartments in the ah7 zone uh which was created as a result of a settlement negotiation with the applicant following the adoption of our third round housing element in Fair share plan uh there was probably over three hours of discussion at at our February 22nd meeting uh and testimony uh from the applicant um this application involves variances for the facade penetration on the tow houses or the ratio of solids to voids so uh walls to openings doors and windows essentially um on the the endcap part of the townhouse buildings and the part uh that's facing the the center Courtyards uh within the uh four buildings um there are two other variances for the location of the signage for the development and the maximum Building height in terms of stories uh since that meeting on the 22nd we've received from the applicant revised architectural plans and Sheet five of their engineering plan set um as a result uh like the chair said uh there's a revised engineering and Zoning memo describing the change um additionally we've received a memo from the municipal affordable housing manager to address some of the outstanding questions from the last meeting with data on the interest and demand in uh for sale affordable housing in Princeton uh and finally we've also uh We've uploaded all those AFF forementioned documents as well as the settlement agreement uh in color to better show the exhibits that are a part of it uh previously uh it was only uploaded in black and white so uh trying to fix that um the topics uh that we discussed at the last meeting and and are still outstanding from that meeting include uh the redesign of the architecture on the townhouse buildings uh related to that variance for solids to voids and that's been changed uh with the Revis site plans uh another topic was fence materials uh for the fence to the east of the site near the homes uh on Grover Avenue which has also been revised the status of the existing magnolia trees uh HOA operations and documents and and how that will uh run excuse me uh with the new buildings um I don't believe we've received any information on those so the applicant uh is expected to testify to them as well as how parking spaces will be assigned to the affordable units um and I understand a representative from Toll Brothers uh was going to be here to answer some of these questions tonight uh that's those are the topics that I have uh the major ones from the last meeting that I I recall um Dan and Derek may want to discuss their supplemental supplemental memo prior to turning it over to the applicant Justin the one thing I would add is David has raised at the first meeting the question of the timing of the roadway so that it's not built and then used as as construction access afterwards which would be very damaging probably have to be rebuilt I think that's worth discussing as well certainly thank you Jerry and to just very briefly point out the the gist of the memo from the affordable housing official um that person acknowledged that there is um absolutely demand for for sale affordable units in Princeton there's a waiting list a long waiting list um for that type of units that that question came up and referen that memo but I just wanted to point out what the gist of it was thank you um so uh Dan Weissman and um and um sorry and Derek excuse me can you just hit the high points of your updated um memo please thank you madam chair and good evening everyone um if you don't mind Derek I'll just run through it quickly if there's anything else you want to add on um just so we don't have to buy for cable we're running through here um but the the ground floor entrances to each townhouse end unit that faces the new uh access roadway that entrance is now relocated to the uh Western facade on that access roadway um by doing so the courtyard facades uh have slightly reduced in ratio of solid to voids from 27.2% to 26.9% um the side fit SIDS have also been slightly modified to add windows and that increases the ratio from 14 point I'm sorry from 11.6% to 14.8% the code requires that the percentages be equal the ratio be equal between the courtyard fronting facade and the facade on the access road so the variance still exists however that that distance between those those two numbers uh has been reduced um some minor uh changes to the site there are pic tables that have been added to the lawn areas to the east of the first driveway um a additional 5- foot uh High cedar fence uh has been added to screen the utility meters area adjacent to the uh Access Road um and the fence on the grover Avenue side has been revised to reflex a six six foot solid cedar fence um so again that that variance still applies although it has been reduced um there's still variance relief required for uh the stories of the buildings and there's also just to clarify a building height variance required for the southernmost townhouse building um where 45 f is required and uh the building Hy propos is 47 42 feet okay thank you Dan Derek anything to add uh no sorry I lost contact there for a minute apologize but I don't have thank you problem at all good um okay um then on behalf of the applicant I guess I would ask uh or invite all of you to turn on your cameras hi Mr tar um you you were first with your camera I assume you're also first to um uh to speak on behalf of the applicant you want to get us going surely uh I we've got Chris let me just ask you do you have any new Witnesses M yes yes you want to swear them should we swear them in there's just one Alex CH chalal from toll is here with us Alex you want to be sworn in uh yeah if you could raise your right hand do you swear affirm the testimony about to give me the truth yes so want to affirm please take your fullone name and spell your last name Alex chal CH o t a l a l thank you can we go ahead and um uh do Mr Cha's um qualifications this at this point sure he he's a he's a fact witness his his role at at tol is as the land entitlements manager for New Jersey so he's going to talk about the HOA documentation that's all okay that does not require a qualification I I I I have to admit I was assuming he was he was an architect so the so you're saying and Muller you agree yeah that doesn't require okay great go ahead very good so we're going to start off as we did last time Daniel has a a a new set of slides the last time we marked the the the slide deck as applicant one or A1 if this could be A2 we could mark it and and Daniel could proceed to put that up what we're doing is we've listed each of the items that were to be discussed and uh he and Jim calik and Jeremy the architect are all going to comment on them u u the things that were on the list from last time okay so I'm I'm going to go ahead and share my screen um uh good evening my name is Daniel barski and uh my team and I are back uh from our last planning board meeting which was on February 22nd we covered a lot of information on our last meeting and following uh presentation is going to specifically address the questions and concerns that came up from the previous meeting as you already know Toll Brothers is under contract on this property um to develop it to provide both market and affordable units uh both for sale and I'm emphasizing for sale because because uh you know we do believe that there is a very high demanding princi for both uh affordable and Market units so here's a rundown a general rundown of the items we'll be covering and for my part I'd like to start by reviewing the settlement agreement and the timelines of actually how we got to this point so we originally negotiated the settlement agreement with Princeton on November 20th of 2020 uh to the left of your screen is the negotiated site plan concept with the six affordable units uh between the two buildings that front uh on ter Hune Road and four rows of six town homes each going towards the rear uh there's a proposed new access road that is um going to be connected to the shopping center with Alleyways to access the proposed community and green space in between and as we testified in the previous meeting our proposed site plan is consistent with this concept plan also included in the settlement agreement is the following section which I've Illustrated on the right addressing the conceptual architectural rendering for the two affordable buildings uh referenced as Exhibit C and you can see here on this slide are the affordable buildings that were attached as part of the settlement agreement Exhibit C and they were prepared by Dan Bowski who is a local architect who specializes in design and implementation of affordable housing the intent of the design at that time uh which was approved by the municipality as part of the settlement agreement was to have these affordable units help blend and then transition from the existing surrounding less intense use to the higher density use in the area uh and there is clear language in the settlement agreement to keep the design consistent with these drawings at the time of the settlement agreement Dan barowski spent time to study and identify prominent features of single family homes in the direct vicinity on T Hune and Grover and Implement these design features from the surrounding neighborhood into the proposed affordable building design um this rationale and documentation which is provided in front of you is also displayed as an exhibit as part part of the settlement agreement and to clarify our responsibility in constructing the new Access Road the settlement agreement also specifically addresses this uh reading straight from the settlement agreement Princeton shall make the easement available to 375 tune and 375 tun shall at its cost and expense construct the roadway path landscaping and site improvements within the easement area for contemplated here in uh for your reference the new access road is Illustrated on the slide to the left hand side of the screen the actual Road the new axess road was engineered by W wind developers it was reviewed by staff and approved by the board as part of the wind application the parts of the road that are shaded in red and green in this illustration fall within the municipal easement reference in the settlement agreement and will be built by the applicant the little tail end the blue shaded part of the road that is on wi's property shall be built by others uh we've already had conversation with wi with Edens and other surrounding Neighbors about coordination uh in constructing the roadway and corresponding timelines um most of the questions revolve around a timeline for us to start the work and of course we're waiting for the planning board approval before committing more accurate dates but we've already started the conversation with other interested parties uh tol has a lot of experience of coordinating bigger infrastructure like this with Associated neighbors and sites and um if there's more specific questions on specifically this what I'll call the red part of the road that you see in the illustration how it's going to be built uh and when May have to access and go in and out and how that's going to affect um pervious pavement um we have someone that can testify to that and speak on that behalf but um this certainly seems to be a very sensible solution to that and something that to Brothers has done a lot in the past so moving on um is from some of the items that we heard from last meeting are have to do around site plan revision so I'm going to pass it on to James calac our engineer who testified last time and he's going to go over in more detail addressing specific items that were brought up uh from the February meeting and and as these slides appear whoever testifying can give the P page number of them just for the record sure yeah so I I just um testified to pages one through seven yep and um James is going to testify uh Pages 8 through 15 uh good evening everyone thanks Dan um this particular slide is just a summary of the overall um unit and bedroom count for consistency purposes we discussed this at the last meeting um and we did include this on the revised um site plan for accuracy in coordination with what the existing architectural plans are in terms of number of building units and and um number of bedrooms so there's there's no change to number of units um or number of buildings obviously but for a housekeeping standpoint we wanted to include this uh as a slide here so slide nine this is the overall site plan which shows the minor um revisions and additions that we made uh subsequent to the last meeting on the top of the page um you can see which is the eastern boundary along the Grover Street uh Grover Avenue properties we specified the material of the six foot high privacy fence uh instead of the PVC as previously proposed that'll be a solid Cedar privacy fence and that'll also follow the detail that we had previously submitted uh originally on the plans but the material for that would be Cedar um proceeding to the left uh along this page here towards the front in ter hun road we have two two elements one is there was a request at the last hearing to add a couple of additional picnic tables uh in this particular area at the end of the access driveway to the affordable units um and we've located those and shown those standard uh two standard picnic tables um size to scale right in in that that local area which will be suitable for the uh for them in that location and then additionally um as per what Justin had mentioned um at the outset of the meeting in terms of the parking area for the um affordable residences uh we know it on here and it's our testimony that they'll spec be specifically numbered uh for each residence and assigned so that the residents of the buildings um and the those particular units uh will have assigned parking stalls and they will be reserved for the the occupants of the building um so there'll be um signage for that as well as uh marking on the par on the pavement for each particular parking stall and probably the most prominent um change although minor here along the access road uh there was no change to the building or any of the additional um ancillary significant ancillary features in the site plan but the entrance to the town homes as Mr Weisman mentioned previously that came from the courtyard um into each of these town home buildings was relocate cated to face the access road so you can see the um at the bottom of the page the orange entrances or sidewalks go to an an inset uh porch and a front door to each of those units so uh as requested at the last meaning that change was made um and our architect will provide some supplemental testimony exhibits as to the configuration and um the overall appearance and context of the Gable facad what they look like uh and further details on that next is uh a few minor landscape additions to the plan that were requested at the last hearing and we've highlighted the the updates in Orange um and I'll start in the center of the page uh where the landscape buffer again mentioning that we have this landscape buffer that separates um the grover residences from the subject property and again there'll be a six foot high solid seedar fence um associated with a 15 foot wide uh landscape easement uh we did have some supplemental discussions since the last meeting with Mr Dober milski the board's landscape architect um relative to a couple question questions or comments and and one was I believe it was Miss Wilson uh had a request of the the proposed landscape buffer um include all Native species uh there were a couple of non-native species in this Evergreen Landscape buffer one was the Norway spruce the other was the yino Japanese uh ch um Japanese Cedar um and we discussed that with Mr ber milski um and also reviewed the effectiveness of the screening relative to whether it is um 100% native uh or not and our number one concern is performance here um and with respect to that we want to provide the screening the buffering necessary um and available to provide by incorporating the noray spruce which technically is not a native species but it just does so well here in Princeton um and provide such effective screening and sort of robust Foliage for this purpose um that that we'd like to keep that as part of the plan and we just say that in the context of when we get to every Green species we're really Limited in terms of the different species available to us from a native um standpoint and perspective um so we we would like to keep the Norway spruce since they do such a good job and then with the um yosino Cedar we discussed with Mr dolber milski uh replacing that with green giant AR provid which generally are deer resistant um do grow robustly here in Princeton and will provide an effective screen so um we could sort of insert that as a species that's a little bit more in the context of what we see here locally and at the end of the day what's effective and and works well so that's that's another uh slight addition that we made to the plan and up at the front of the property within the front yard I'll talk a little bit more about this on the next slide those are the two Magnolias uh within the front yard and we may come back to this slide but perhaps we can proceed down to the next couple of slides to further discuss this um at the last meeting there was a some questions about um the ma two existing Magnolia trees that are at the front of the property and as you may recall there was an overall design intent um to to maintain these trees uh because of their their prominence on the property and and work around them um because of the geometric constraints on the property the provisions for the space between the buildings the storm water management at the rear as well as the 30 foot wide Drive aisles and our effort to minimize any excess um site improvements sort of in a left to right direction and to keep this condensed uh we we still do have impacts to these magnolia trees so the the second best option was to propose and investigate um preserving them but relocating them and this particular slide shows you in red the two red X's where they are located they have an approximate um drip line or overall diameter of 25 to 30 ft and that's illustrated by the dashed circles that are around each X and it just gives you an idea that it shows you how much that does encroach within the the footprint of the affordable dwellings um which need to go in that location and we really don't have any um flexibility just due to the the front yard setbacks the parking needed and the other geometric constraints um if you go to the next SL Dan yeah so as part of this um the uh Toll Brothers and Mr Dober milski and um an expert landscape contractor uh LMS met out at the site in order to evaluate the feasibility of relocating these two particular trees and as I previously mentioned um uh approximately 25 to 30 feet in diameter um and the the landscape expert indicated that in order to relocate them they would have to um use a large spade and basically excavate each tree and leave it with an approximate root ball of a 10- foot diameter um and although physically it may be possible there were some significant um concerns and impacts uh to making that relocation number one is um an anticipation of low survivability just because of the size of the root ball and the overall size of the trees uh typically they indicated that you would re really require multiple years of pruning prior to a relocation um where this is going to happen relatively immediately um that would have to be anticipated for several years in order to to cut the trees back to facilitate that relocation um there's a thought that there's a concern when they are relocated of susceptibility in that transition to disease and pests um and overall securing those two trees in their Lo locations just because of the size of the overall canopy uh and the root ball from from wind and tying the trees down um they don't have confidence strong confidence that they're going to be able to Anchor those trees sufficiently just due to their size um so in order to address this address the concern of Maintenance of um speci specimen type Magnolia at the front of the property the recommendation was made to uh replace them not with two but with three uh Magnolia specimen trees within the the frontage portion of the property as highlighted on this plan we put you know general areas that be suitable uh for those relocations at a 6 in to 7in caliber still um sub substantial in large trees but um a solution that would provide sort of a lasting um effect on the property to maintain the Magnolias and and it seems like that's the best uh effort that can be made in order to achieve the result that was ultimately intended I certainly defer to Mr dolber milski if he has any comments on that you know at at this time or when I finish with my testimony um since he was present at the meeting and might also you know provide some observations for you on that point as Dan I'm sorry were you inviting him to I think it it may make sense if speak right now I think so too Dan can you um I don't I can't remember if I was sworn in it or not Jerry let's be safe about it so soer he was sing oh okay good so yes thank you so everything that Jim just said was was was accurate uh basically I could add to that in addition to some of the concerns we also these trees are 30 feet wide 30 feet tall one is better than the other slightly wider slightly taller but the branching of them is such that they have low branches that go out very broadly and in order to dig them with a tree spade you'd most likely have to remove some of the lower branches because it would be almost impossible I think it would be impossible to actually um bind them up so that you don't damage them with the tree spade while you're trying to dig them um and it it's actually my opinion that in order to actually move them you'd have to consider it almost like a house or a structure you would have to dig it uh box it and move it with a crane uh in order to move that those trees and actually get them to live and it can be done but there's very few companies that do that it's extremely expensive um and it's basically like house moving equipment and then when you get down to it what do you have you have trees that quite honestly for for what they are they're not the best quality specimens to begin with they do have some flaws in the structure of the tree with the branching Etc and you put that all together with the addition concerns that that Jim had mentioned and it became clear that you'd be much better off trying to find the biggest tree from a nursery you could find imp planting it and uh five or six years from now you'd end up at a better place um so that was the discussion the landscape contractor look searched and said that he can find six to seven inch caliber uh magnol Magnolia Grand FL FL floor which is what they are they're southern magnolias um and he could find those they are available and So based upon that I believe that was the the recommendation he was going to offer to uh Toll Brothers which was the representative that was there that he would suggest that and I kind of concur that that that would be the most prudent way to um try and address the idea that the of having some type of southern magnolia tree there because they are there and that was the discussion so that's that was the better way to go based upon what we looked at it would be extremely expensive and risky to try and move those trees thank you Dan okay so just to continue on um relative to what was mentioned on the fence previously with specifying a solid cedar fence along the grover properties um again we're referencing here the detail that is already included on the plan but this is just to reiterate um that specific material that was desired that is slide 15 and slide 16 is the revised town home entry and facades which would probably be addressed by Jeremy our architect uh okay thanks before we go to that um Mr Co yeah I just wanted to um ask a question about the parking um for the for the affordable units I do understand they'll be numbered and so forth um but since these are for sale units um I just don't know you know I would guess with rental units that there would be a sense that you know an owner would have to choose whether they wanted one or two spaces because right now they're nine spaces there are um six units so some will get one some will get two but I'm wondering whether one really has to actually allocate the uh spaces to the units if um you know if they're for sale units and would you do that based on bedrooms like two cars for the three and two bedroom units and one car for the one-bedroom units or what what would be the approach to that uh the anticipation would be that we would assign parking stalls to all of the units and then we have a few three-bedroom units and they would probably get two um for each three-bedroom unit because of the increased number of bedrooms okay yeah I I think it's one three and two two bedrooms if I remember correctly but still the princi I think is yeah they would be prated based on on bedrooms to suit that need got it any other questions before we hear the architectural testimony Mr Lesco thank you madam chair I'm sorry not to belabor the point but uh my understanding from the last meeting is there are nine spaces On's Ada accessible uh and two others are EV spaces so will those three be divvied up in addition to the other six or you know is the Ada space going to be uh for anyone who needs it or the EV space is going to be for anyone who needs them yeah we why don't we take just I was GNA get to the HOA question with Alex later but as I told you he's the entitlement manager and Jeremy is also with tol Brothers I'm going to invite the the two of them to indicate what they've done in other communities uh and not speculate for yeah I can um I can I can speak to that so there's nine spaces um the Ada would also be there so six would go to the individual unit owners the Ada would be to whomever needs it and we will have the two additional spaces those would be um EV ready to whoever has um uh an electric car they can it would I guess it would be like temporary parking so they can charge their cars would that be for anyone within the community or just within the uh affordable apartments um anyone the way that it's set up for the for the charging stations so it would anyone in the community could use it but we are doing EV ready within every um every garage so if someone wants to set up a charging station in their garage it'll be the electric will be there for it but the way that the EV works is it's really just on like a app or a card you can pull up to it um swipe into it and you would just pay for it so anyone could use it um but I would think anyone that has an electric car they would just have one in their garage within the community yeah and I I actually like the approach of sort of saying the EV spaces I mean we could have four residents who have EVs and would and we would want them all to be able to access those so that those EV spaces really should be shared uh between the units I would think so the six non-special spaces just one per unit and then um as you discussed for the other ones correct thank you good glad while Alex is here can we just jump ahead and let him answer the HOA question that came up so that we can focus on the facades after that Alex you you good with that yeah that's fine um if I can get just any exact questions I don't just want to start spelling about HOA because we'll be here all night but if there's an exact question I'm happy to answer it um did you have a particular question in mind that had come up before Mr tar or I see Freddy Paul PE mutter's hand up so maybe yeah yeah the the question was a broad question how these units are for sale how is it administered after toll sells all the units and Alex has some experience with that but we we could just speak to a j question that comes up okay um Freddy pearlmutter and then Alvin Macwan uh yeah I had a question um under the ho rules and actually it's a little broader than that and that is I know that you're not putting solar in but will solar be permitted if a particular homeowner wanted to do it uh the way that these units are set up it'll all be so the HOA owns all the facades in the outside um we are currently doing some um uh like solar studies depending on how the units lay out and if the sun would hit them right um that would ultimately wouldn't whole Brothers wouldn't exactly do it up front but if at a later date after we transition over to the homeowners and they have full control of their board if that's something that uh they would pursue they can more they're more than welcome to do that okay and then I also had a question about the charging stations not station but the Chargers that you're putting into individual Town Homes um will they be the 240v receptes for level two charging uh I believe so yes so yes it'll be the 240 I think that's the standard one right I think so basic basically like a drier Outlet yeah yeah uh this is Jeremy if I could jump in it's actually a 50 amp circuit that's set up for that the onto the panel so it will accept any charging port that will run up to the 50 amps okay and I believe that does cover that good uh welcome an environmental standpoint obviously I'm on the environmental commission as well as on this um we would certainly like to see a solar there you know solar there it if it can be done yeah absolutely like I said um once we transition over the board um there are studies that can be done um the HOA is they're they're more than welcome to do that if they if the members of the board vote to do it once we transition um the community over but again it's really just based on how the units are laid out and which way the roofs are facing if it makes sense um to have solar panels there so does that mean that the that the roof would be constructed solar ready am I using the right term maybe Mr Cohen can or or Miss Pearl Motor can yeah I mean uh standard shingle you know asphalt shingles or fiberglass shingles are able to accept you know so the it's not a question of the roof but really the question of being solar ready has to do with conduit to that would take you know the um provide for wiring to go from the roof to wherever you know in one of the Town Homes uh there would be space for the you know for the equipment that would support the solar panels or possibly on the outside of the building I suppose it doesn't have to be inside the building that the equipment would be located but I think that um to Freddy's point I think it would be really good for the each row of Town Homes to be solar ready since the roof is owned by the HOA you know it should be an array that would go up across the entire roof so you don't need to have a conduit for each individual unit uh and you don't need to have equipment for each individual unit but there should be some provision um that it be solar ready in that in that regard I think so it's a little bit more complicated than um than that being that the HOA does own the roof but actual setting up of like where the conduit would run and have in space for it um none of that was contemplated as of yet on these on these units um Jeremy I don't know if you have much experience on the space or location for that but I know it wasn't contemplated um for the for these units on what we're currently going to be looking at today yeah unfortunately I don't have depth experience in that I don't think it's I don't think it's a heavy lift yeah so I think you know they should be made slow ready and and let tol figure out how to do that yeah like I say I think the conduit and the equipment can probably be mounted on the outside of the building you'd probably want to do that on the East end of each row so that it wasn't you know public so public face but if it's as simple um I would hate to leave this meeting with a um to push us into another meeting but if it's as simple as just running a conduit and we can confirm it but if it's as simple as just running a conduit um from from the roof down to the building So eventually uh solar panels can be installed that would not be an issue for us um if it goes into more detail than that because I don't have uh much experience in that in the solar panel area um then I guess we would we we're happy to discuss it uh later on I just don't know how that would how we can get past it like right now um like I said if it's if it's as simple as just running a conduit we have no issues doing that we can figure that out I I don't know all the further details involved in it um and I would hate just to say yes and then figure out it's a major issue that I wasn't contemplating right this second right uh what you pointed out is this these would have to be communal or owned by the homeowners association which suggests there would be one conduit going down the say the far end of the building so if we could just indicate if that's a acceptable condition that a the shingled roof would be be later uh refitted to allow for the panels and a conduit could be installed down the outside of the at the end of the far end of the building that would be fine what about the affordable housing units is any possibility of putting solar in there that's the that's an interesting question that the the way that the those work the the buyers of the units are limited in the what they have to pay but they likewise have their own responsibility for if they decided to have solar I I just want to weigh in on that the um the town is working pretty hard to get a community solar project that would support our LMI you know lower and middle income residents not just here but you know throughout the municipality and our various affordable housing uh locations so I think that that might be the most okay the the easiest way to address the needs of that group okay uh Mr meller you're on mute yeah Chris um Alex it indicated that they' be meable to putting the the conduit in now on the outside of the building but I wasn't sure that's what you were saying yeah it it it's it's like EV ready in the garages I mean you know it's it's it's you go to a certain length we we have shingle roof so we know that the panels could be installed up there at a later date but to put a conduit it on there Chris if I can jump in I think the concern is what the municipality considers solar ready and tolls capacity to be able to actually meet that standard if the request is and my understanding is at least my understanding the past was to make something solar ready is to run a conduit through the building on the inside or out you know inch and a half 2 in piece of conduit so that you can later pull wire through to get to the roof to service the whole town home row if it's um framed that way in the resolution specifically to provide one conduit to each Town housee unit to the roof I'm certain tol has no objection to that um um so if that's what the if that's what the request is I I think that what we heard is the they're fine to do that yeah full full disclosure is there probably needs to be some connection to the electric meter for each of the individual units as well you know some kind of conduit that would allow units to tap into the solar that's being generated yeah I think probably concern is when you and and recently I know because I've been managing more and more HOH ways recently to get 24 people on board that yes we want solar no I don't who's going to use it usually in an application like this it's unlikely that you're able to get a whole Community together to for the cost and the infrastructure involved and how the power is split and who picks up what power so it's likely a moot point um I just I think tol's concern is you know that we don't go down resolution compliance and well this isn't quite solar ready so if it's very clear what you guys want then probably and it's written that way in the resolution tol can say yes or no but just not so it's open-ended what does that exactly mean because you know um I've personally done solar panels myself and sometimes solar ready means a piece of conduit and normally that's the case on a single family home running to the meter you can tap into it later and in this instance in a townhouse application with um with a with a HOA board and and many members I think that's the struggle so you know we can talk about it further or you know again if it's a piece of you know if it's conduit so far my experience with toll is they've been um uh uh my experience with toll is that they've been very Cooperative so I don't think a you know couple piece of cond is going to hurdle them the wrong way but let's just be very clear about what we want that's all yep uh Mr Macwan and then Mr Lesco um back to your told Brothers representative do you have experience with sales to very lwi income applicants that's first a general question uh me in particular um I I personally don't but our sales teams they do um and and that's going to include the fees for for h HOA fees and other things that and and and your organization has has been able to successfully do that yes the way that we do it um throughout the throughout the state is we do it based on a percent interest being that the um the affordable units in a square footage is smaller than the market rate so the market rate would pay a higher HOA fee than the affordable uh will because we do it on a percent interest um and the fees the bigger the larger the square footage um the more they would pay so a one-bedroom affordable would pay less than a three-bedroom affordable but a three-bedroom affordable would then pay less less than a full out market rate home based on the square footage of it okay my question is a little different it's not it's not just affordable again I'm I'm asking specifically about very lwi income affordable units as opposed to low as opposed to low income as opposed to moderate income so I think as you're aware uh as is in the case in rental a very low income individual pays rent as a function of his or her income the same is true with sales that the purchase price for the unit would be lower for a very lowincome individual uh uh it would fit within the categories that they have and I remind you that um Lewis herd your affordable housing manager wrote a memo saying there is high demand in all three categories okay I have no problem with that again what what this this is the concern you have a very lwi income applicant that's got to have the mortgage and every and the mortgage and the fees even if they were even if they are um reduced if you will for Market that person you allow him to purchase it but but just the total income is rather it it there's so much with the fees and even if you can get a mortgage that it the person who buys that may not be able to to maintain that and have to either sell you're have to do something else with the unit now I guess more I'm saying and the reason I'm asking I'm just making making you aware that that's that's could be an issue toll tells us that they've done it elsewhere and it it's doing within the formula and your housing manager says there's high demand I I think that the the I'm sorry I'm going to let Justin may want to shed some light on this but the I don't think that the plan was for to to be or the homeowner association to be managing these I think the idea that these were going to be managed in the Same by the um by the municipality and I think that was that was um what had been plated in the original discussions but Justin maybe you can shed some light on that uh I would have to check the settlement agreement for the exact language I'm not sure off the top of my head okay I thought that's what you were gonna speak to anyway I know I don't I don't know that we resolved it clearly in the settlement agreement David I don't know if you remember but I I don't I don't know that we that there was an expectation that tol would be the ongoing manager of this program I I think we thought it would be connected in some way to the that the municipality would be would have oversight I mean generally in the municipality our Housing Office does manage all the for sale units as I understand it others others manage rental units but our Housing Office manages the for sale units Alex you have no problem with that having the municipality do the management no now are we saying the management of just the like selling it or the management as like a uh like like a HOA management perspective I'm just confused on the word management um because it does go into the lottery and the whole nine when we're selling it which is what we do throughout the state um being that it's part of the community typically we're just used to seeing the affordable units just fit right into our HOA management and they have a seat on the board um that's just typical of what we see around the state and I'm not sure Alvin you might know whether we have any other for sale units that are part of an inclusionary development I think most of our for sale units are not they're you know uh what about Farm I think at Griggs Farm okay no no the the the burrow the burrow the former burrow Hamilton Avenue um along I can't think the other street at the moment mlan has one yeah mlan yeah mlan and McLean's the other area also but but I think we own them the to but I believe I believe it's it's at least I thought they were they are managed by the HOA essentially by the HOA not by municipality um they're not they're technically in some ways well well I guess they can be coist but but they but they're sort of on the they're kind of got their own Arrangement as to what goes on yeah you remember the two end units are middle-income individuals that don't qualify as affordable units and the interior units were affordable units they were all sold to individual owners and they have an HOA of their own for all the ones that you refer to so I think tol and the and and Daniel are happy to have it either way tol's experience is that they're part of the that Community but that's their experience Mr leco and to answer uh the question earlier from Council president saaks the zoning requires the municipal housing liaison uh to Market administer and certify uh the occupancy of the units to be paid for by the developer so it would be done by us in terms of selling the units um I had a question uh about again how the HOA will operate I think it was touched upon a little by Mr chotel um am might understand can you just go over again how that breakdown will happen is it the same number but based on the square footage uh and then for you know monthly HOA fees yeah so basic how does that work with I mean there are going to be people in between the town homes and the affordable units including the very low-income ones there will be people with very very different economic levels uh so if you could just describe how that has worked elsewhere Yeah so basically what we do is we do a reserve study um and then we have our um uh the uh uh an accounting firm they they cross reference it um and then we come up with a monthly like a monthly fee of what the total like a total monthly fee and then there will be 24 units that will be paying the same amount and then the affordable uh units I think based on their bedroom counts because they're Square the more bedrooms the biger the square footage we do it on a percent interest so um the one bedroom would pay um a certain amount the two bedrooms would pay a little bit more and the third bedroom they'll pay a little bit more and then the 24 units they will all pay the same but almost like the bulk of it based on their square footage it's just like a formula that we use um that all all 30 units total will come up to 100% of what the monthly assessment needs to be okay what safeguards are in place to make sure sure that you know if someone's making $22,000 in one of the very low income units versus the town home where they're making much more that it'll be more proportional than just space so be almost kind of like um we for lack of better words kind of back into certain numbers right we realize this amount of money is needed um to keep the HOA operational we understand that the the monthly fee pays into um into the affordable total what they uh what they're paying per month um so we are conscious of what we're charging everyone to make sure we still the ultimate goal is to sell the affordable units we're not going to make those so high where we can't even sell them um so an exact Safeguard um it it's really a number that we back into that totals out what our monthly um assessment needs to be okay thank you yeah if I if I understood what you just said you do consider the HOA fees to be part of the affordable nut if you will and other words it's kind of like utilities also are supposed to be all of that together is supposed to be under that 30% of an of monthly income or annual income so you're saying that the ho fees are in that category not not a separate category like what we see sometimes with our rental units is that there are you know fees for Clubhouse use right that um that the developers say they're not required under New Jersey Law to give affordable units a discount on on certain on those fees like for using the clubhouse but you're saying at least the HOA fee will be part of the affordable package yes we are we are conscious of that um of that total number that total fee so um that's why when we set it up we do it based on a percent interest um based on the square footage of the unit is how we determine what that um what that number is did that answer your question Mr Cohen or yeah I mean I what I what I think I'm hearing is that you know they may have a higher HOA fee than what we would think would be right but then the rent would come down to make sure that the total monthly payment uh not the rent the mortgage you know would come down so that the total monthly payment fits within the affordability guidelines so I to as long as he's correct and that's the way that's going to be handled I'm fine with that because essentially it doesn't matter to us how much they're paying as an HOA fee as long as the entire monthly expenditure for mortgage utilities HOA fee all of that stuff taken together meets the affordability requirements and you're saying Mr chalal that yes that it is all taken together and that and that the ho fees are not in any way outside of that 30% um okay that is correct yes good okay could we look at the facades any other questions for Mr yeah just or go ahead yeah is in terms of the HOA fees for the affordable units um when they when they finally calculated is that reviewed by the M somebody at the municipalities that you work with can I yeah c can I just jump in real quick there's very specific mechanics and procedures that have to go through the housing authority to be able to put these affordable housing units for sale at that point condo docks will be provided to the housing authority to be able to put them up for sale because they're going to be the ones that are filling the units qualifying the people and they have very specific procedures and mechanics on how that's done to Brothers has done this with other towns in the past of New Jersey and what whatever the state requirements are and through the Housing Authority they're going to meet those requirements to be able to sell them I mean is that a sufficient I think that that's accurate that that's what I what and that's what Justin said it's not just for the audience and the other panelists for clarification the Housing Authority which is you know another that's Fally uh that's Federal housing it's uh the municipal housing office and right but everything has to be done through that office and they have certain procedures and Mechanics for it and obviously if someone wants to tell if toll wants to sell the units they're going to have to meet those requirements like David described with overall payments they have certain budgets you know tol's going to have to obviously be able to meet those requirements to sell affordable units through the Housing Authority that's all I wanted to add through the housing office yeah right yeah uh Elvin yeah I just want to make sure I I think I got it right um you're not talking about the local housing there's something called the Housing Authority in Princeton that owns and manages units no I'm not there was a Housing Authority which was the affordable housing board which which again manages something something different you're talking about the requirements of the housing with the housing board that Authority correct right yes correct yeah most specifically Mr herd uh the affordable housing manager in his office does the math that's that's where the work gets done and and we know from his memo that you know there there is demand for it so and and we know that the demand comes with certain requirements for total overall payments and you know however that shakes out through their off office is what toll is going to have to or whoever is going to build these is going to have to uh comply with and clearly they're prepared to do that uh Mr Cohen yeah I'm sorry this is uh going back to another topic but um in terms of the landscape plan we did hear Mr Dober milsky comment on the Magnolias I didn't hear him comment on the Norway spruce uh that the applicant wants to retain even though it's not native and I I'd like to hear what Dan has to say about that sure thank you uh so yeah we did talk about uh I mean how critical this buffer would be since uh it's pretty tight in there um these are fairly large tall units and that uh the selections that would be available uh are kind of limited to try and address that concern and some of the best choices to do that are Norway spruce and green giant arborite um and that's and when you add in the fact that there probably will be deer in the area even though it is fairly dense there's going to be deer coming through here um we kind of thought that that would be the better choices that the native selections like Holly and Cedars one were using them a lot already nearby and two um they do not grow NE neily as quickly um or as fully necessarily they're a little more difficult to grow uh you have to plant them at a smaller size so they it would take time longer time for them to grow in and in this case since we're relying on a fence in a single row of trees it felt like there needed to be something that was a little more robust um and that that's why we kind of concurred that that might be the most sensible solution um um for this location thank you yep thank you both um don't see any other hands raised so Mr tar let's move to your next witness is that Mr Green it is Mr Green so Jeremy was uh sworn in last time as an architect of the toll office and he's going to show you some changes that were suggested to the uh facade facing the uh the street thank you thanks right Daniel if you there you go you we're on slide 17 um this slide is a comparative between what was indicated uh or shown to the board um uh at the 222 hearing um where the front entrance to that particular unit was oriented off of The Greenway the courtyard uh which is over to the the rightmost of that leftmost uh Gable elevation on your right hand side is the redesign um we looked at several different um opportunities to um increase some of the fenestration uh increase the solid of void ratio um and introduce some additional elements along with the um the main objective I think was to get the side entry um up along with increasing some of the penetration ratio so um as Mr Weissman noted um on this particular elevation we were by adding Windows as you can see on this rightmost elevation we added two windows um along the uh the rear uh of the unit to the to the left most of that um elevation um we also put the side door with glazing uh in a recess that would be accessed past the uh fire sprinkler room which we move closer to the greenway Courtyard um so again we increase the um the solid the void ratio along the base and on the two upper levels even though we did remove one window um in the living room great room on the second floor uh to accommodate the center uh White Gable piece uh and we also did introduce a small Gable piece um on the the rightmost side uh closer to the Courtyard um the other thing that was noted is we did indicate a fence that's going to be of the same material um as the privacy fence to the east um that would be screening uh the area which we had indicated where the utilities were it's 5T tall and we believe based upon the number of meters that will be required it will cover generally cover that along with any supplemental Landscaping um so as as like I said Mr Weissman noted we were able to increase the penetration from 11.6 to 14.8 which is a fairly significant um increase um the uh one other thing I wanted to note here is that in the planning memo I'm sorry the uh the planners memo and I think the engineers memo noted a discrepancy on sheet pg4 versus PG 1.2 which is a portion of this um the PG 1.2 and the penetration ratios are correct the floor plan um unfortunately the architect missed I'm updating that we do have an updated floor plan at the end of the slide de should anybody want to see that it just shows um the correct window placements um on that uh that level so um that's what I have to to describe in this particular slide um the next slide 18 um just shows all the elevations um again this shows um the courtyard elevation um we made a couple changes um again we ended up reducing this uh by a tiny bit it was because we basically removed the front door um and moved it to the side so we didn't have that to count against the solid void ratio um and as you can see on the left most of the front Courtyard elevation now there would be a room or flex room behind the sprinkler closet that would serve as our uh you know Flex office space on the first floor that you would um have your Drop Zone your front coat closet your stair up to the main level as well as your stair uh down to the parking at the rear um other than that we generally um kept this elevation consistent with what we we indicated the last time uh materials being cementitious um siding cementitious panels metal roofs metal railings metal canopies um black window frames um again black or colored front doors with blazing um so again this is very consistent with what you saw um during the last uh last hearing um did we want to get to that this or not Daniel yeah okay so um there was uh I guess uh couple days ago um we got some indication I think from your board attorney um that there was some other um type of architecture that was more desirable for this particular um application um we were um given a slide um from a uh one of our uh soldout communities in actually Charlotte North Carolina called tront station um that's a uh a much different type of um urban infill town home uh that have has urban street addresses they're 16 and 18 foot wide town homes so again they're they're with flat roofs and roof Terraces obviously that's not what this application is is going for we have pitch throughs with a loft that fits inside of it and a Terrace that fits inside of it off to the driveway areas but um what we did here and we were thankfully uh our architect was able to accommodate um getting this together for us I think we were on three different calls Alex and I yesterday uh morning before noon um we were able to get something um taking some of the elements from that particular um development the different colored brick um different colored siding and the darker bays and also eliminating The Gables to give it a more modern look despite the fact that it would not have um a flat roof it's just that's technically infeasible with the way this is laid out and also would have we would have some dramatic um challenges with the height uh which we're already struggling with obviously on one building um we did again uh remove the grills the grill patterns to give it a more modern Sleek look so uh what you see here is again a study that we were able to come up very quickly in the last 48 hours um of something that um you know again if this is something more pleasing um we certainly could uh pivot the architecture Ure in this sort of direction again we haven't looked at every single instance in how this would affect um you know the building itself but generally would would stay with the the footprint and layout which we have proposed so far with the site plan and we don't have much room to work with as Mr Chalik has um alluded to before with all of the setbacks and the facts that we're fact that we're pinned on the um the setback lines based on the site configuration um we also did study the access road elevation um again similar in nature to what we showed with the other again giving it a little more modern look same materials wrapping around uh a little more playfulness with the door color for the main entry um and again you would have a similar uh look to this um with the materials being um you know a darker sort of um you know color um on those Bays and the lighter brick that wraps around with the the lighter gray um brick no grills and again we would keep the same penetration ratios for both uh of these sort of I guess um conceptual proposals that we were able to together so if I if I can chime in as well um in my opinion you know toll has really made a good faith effort um in trying to like I would call reskin these units you know we heard some feedback from the last meeting and since then you know as early as 48 hours ago we heard hey is this possible um and uh like I said toll has been very Cooperative they want this community to look nice they want it obviously to happen um and and you know we heard about hey can we make this more more contemporary you know remove the grills from the windows change this color scheme get it closer to the kind of wind design that that wasn't the original tent during the settlement um but as they've Illustrated here and really come up you know last minute because that's when we were notified about this um is this kind of alternative design you know I do think it's worth noting that the original plans have been in for 16 months so they've been in for a very long time um and you know again I think it's a sign of good faith from tol to say hey yes we're willing to last second on a split second change up the design to make them look more as what we think we heard from the last meeting and again in the last 48 hours my understanding from toll is they're okay to go either way and we're happy to hear from the board and my understanding is there's no material change to the buildings what I mean by materials the actual materials change but it hasn't gotten bigger there's no overhangs that have extended further and it wouldn't trigger any other um variance condition so this is essentially a reskin and if this is something the board prefers toll kindly enough is willing to do it um we yeah we hear you we hear you um Mr Cohen yeah I I don't want to jump in front of Mia because I know that she has serious concerns about that but um if she wants me to go first I'm happy to go first um in case what David is gon say is very harsh I just want to say that um I I we really appreciate the effort we note the short time frame um we you know Goodwill is is is good um and uh good faith efforts are good um and I think this is you know already it's is very encouraging the direction um that this has gone from where it was so go ahead David and then thanks yeah actually I was gonna I was gonna start with the good news um I I really quite like this um Greenway elevation here um I you know I was looking at the way that the gables worked and they really landed in odd locations they didn't work well with the windows below them and this this facade now eliminates that problem in addition to being a little bit more contemporary which I think uh I appreciate I also um I don't remember what the overhangs were like at the doors but I I like the little um you know little contemporary gesture uh the overhangs I go back to the other you know overhangs over the entry doors here um so I think I think that this is a big Improvement um the bad news you know is that I'm still not through filled with the uh the end elevation you can go go to that other slide um and what I'll say here is you know again I like the more contemporary treatment um it is an improvement over what was there before I still don't think it's really it doesn't really look like a front facade to me um the entry is there but the amount of attention that's been given to it and I think there are a few things that could be done to improve it even more uh for one thing I noticed in the in the floor plans in the bedroom the master bedroom the walking closet is still on this outside wall I mean from the standpoint of just even marketing these units that is a crazy decision if you can and and there's plenty of room to put the walk-in closet on the party wall to the next unit it's going to help with allowing more light into the bedroom it's going to help with with sound attenuation between the neighboring units I just don't it was something I suggested last time I really don't understand why that closet is still located where it is and if you move that you could put a couple more windows into that bedroom and really you know spruce up this elevation even more the other concern that I have is the kind of awkward relationship of the Center Gable projection with the entry door below it where it's sort of the edge is landing uh on that doorway and I would love to see I don't have a specific solution to suggest for that but I think uh a little more attention to the way that the elements uh align with each other you know the side projection the Gable element also has a awkward relationship to the the door to this sprinkler room so I think this still could use some more work um but it is an improvement uh thank you I agree with all of that um Miss sax um well I I did want to continue just a little bit more to I had some questions about the front but I I think that this obviously is is the priority and I'm wondering and if if the um applicant could address the what D what David has um elaborated on um and I just want to add to that I mean you know like the the two windows and the the the row of Windows on you know from my screen the far left there um they just look so lonely and pathetic and you know isolated and I'm just wondering if there's not something more that could be added to them that would um because even just having the how the ornamentation around the other windows really makes a difference and then it it it creates even more of a ju deposition between those windows which have some you know some decoration and then these windows on the side which just you know it it makes them look even worse and I I I see your point about it is a little bit uneven the way that the door is there underneath um so I'll just want to you're starting to sound like an architect M I've been hanging out with you too much David okay uh Mr Green uh are you the right person to respond to this uh with um you know any I'm particularly interested in whether um the simple uh change of uh moving the location of the walk-in closet is something that um you are willing and able to put into effect we can in order to create room and and thereby create room for um a couple of more windows more light um Better Sound attenuation all of the benefits that um Mr Cohen articulated uh we can certain look at that further I I did do some early sketches and did compromise the ability to furnish the room with the walk-in closet doors being on what would have been the bed wall flipping the bed wall to one of the exterior walls then would you know cause quite a bit of rearranging of some of the uh window elements to be able to get a bed um in that room so there were some considerations Beyond just where uh elements were physically to allow for additional Windows which is why we opened up the windows into the um on this on the bedroom in the walk-in closet and reduce some of the hanging space keeping it on the on the exterior wall as well as um in the um the the living level opening up a section of the kitchen where we would have a wall a window uh on that wall it is a struggle um the uh placement of the entry door is limited by the location of the garage um so again some of just the spatial arrangement of having on the the the bedroom level or I'm sort of the living level having your kitchen in the rear your dining in the middle which is where that Gable element is in those two windows and then having your great room in the front which is a typical Arrangement you want to have you know uh cooking to eating to living um again some challenges of where the windows can be placed um to get those rooms to work internally so it's a it really is a push and pull between um the ability to I guess come up with the most pleasing um elevation on the end as well as to have really liable spaces because um under you know not not to Discount your concern here but the people that are owning these these these homes are going to want to be able to live effectively in them they're not going to particularly care about um what they may look like when they're they're heading heading out um you know and their street trees on in front of it as well again I don't want to dismiss it but um it's always a challenge especially on the ends of buildings uh to get these to work and we have a lot of experience uh as I mentioned in several other other jobs that we're working on right now Asbury Park sebrite where the ends of the buildings just become a real challenge where with the circulation of the stairs uh Living Spaces in the other elements that you're trying to fit within a 23 foot wide um town home um is you know it is I can't I can't say it's not a challenge there certainly are some other uh things we could try to consider that uh we hyper Focus focused on the elevation when you say we're hyperfocused on the elevation the courtyard elevation I take it you referring to uh that in the in the end because we again you you can see that we we did I felt like we did a lot on the end elevation to improve it thank you and I I just want to point out that the that the changes that um Mr Cohen was suggest um certainly would improve the the elevation but also um would confer real benefits to the people living there by by bringing more light into the room and by um you know helping to dampen sound from the next unit over so it's not all it's about it's it's it's practical as well as aesthetic Mr Cohen I was just goingon to say I think that there ways to manage the doors into the uh walk-in closet that the bed could still be located along uh along the wall of the walk-in closet so I hear your concerned about furniture Arrangement I'm not saying that's what I just said is the optimal solution but I think that I think that deserves some real uh additional consideration and then in terms of the the relation ship of the center Gable piece to the door below it I think that you know the the dimensions of the Gable piece on the exterior do not have to match the dimensions on the interior you could have you know you could scoot the wall over to the right to line up better with the door below or with the door recess but that doesn't mean that you have to change the size of of the you know the dining Nook or whatever whatever's determining you would just have a sort of a blank you know a b a box of poet there to use a a word from architecture school so I think that there I think they're pretty easy ways to um you know in that Center Gable piece does not need to be symmetrical on the Gable already the windows aren't so you know why why insist that the the bump out be symmetrical if the windows aren't symmetrical I think doing something a little asymmetrical would work perfectly fine so um I don't think anybody is um I see your hand up Mia um just a sec I don't think anybody is suggesting that or although please correct me if I'm wrong Mr Cohen or anybody else um that we want you to go back to the drawing board again come back back another night etc etc you know hopefully we can get through this this evening um so I'd like to just put some thought into maybe Mr Cohen Mr Mueller whoever you know think about um condition language that uh that provides for additional consideration for these specific suggestions um is that something that you well we've thought about it again I see M has got her hand up so yeah yeah if she wants to address that she can go first or I I can address that specific thing if she has something else she want add why don't you go ahead Mia I I just I'm not to that point yet I wanted to go back to the front and finish and and so I mean what we had just described at the last meeting was the integrated um you know aesthetic around the shopping center which was obviously driven by compliance with our third round settlement obligations but which we worked very hard council's affordable housing planning and Redevelopment committee we went back and did Redevelopment so that we could create connectivity circulation um and rather than having isolated um you know residential uh you know sort of Governor's Lane type gated communities we wanted to have um um a sense of an entire neighborhood that was integrated including aesthetically and that was the issue with um the it was very dissonant the the style that tol originally presented here um if you look at what uh wi and Avalon did they as I said at the previous meeting sort of riffed off the mid-century modern um design of the shopping center and managed to not make the shopping center um not only didn't make it look worse but I think made everything look better because they um um really worked hard with with with their Architects um and this because it's on the other side of the Connector Road and it is facing it is you know it is part of what is happening around the shopping center it's not part of you know there's there's we've for the maximum buffer between these tow houses and the the neighborhood it's not it really doesn't isn't seen by doesn't speak to other than the affordable units in the front um which has provided transition in the streetscape but as you go down that road you will see you the Alice the shopping center um and and the Avalon uh development and so this if this is not aesthetically integrated into that Vision it will stick out and it will diminish the sense of place that is happening in this area um and we are we have tried to do real placemaking here so that's why this is so important um this is much better um and to your point Daniel um even though and it and it's unfortunate um and a lesson learned um uh for me to when you are negotiating a settlement to make sure that you have um more specification on the Aesthetics however um and because this was not bigar Redevelopment we couldn't continue to have that collaborative process which was unfortunate uh but the uh design that we had looked at which was from a local architect uh and which which unfortunately was not in the settlement agreement but which we had anticipated was going to be the basis for whatever was built here um was a very temporary rendering um and uh this gets it did have a I think there were flat roofs um and to your point about your community in Charlotte which has more of a contemporary aesthetic which is definitely what we're looking for here um I am wondering why the flat roofs worked in the original design which I know that you're not bound by but which we you know saw and anticipated would be the basis for design here why the you if you could just explain again why you need this roof configuration um and also if you could you or the architect could um and if we could go back to the the slide of the front could maybe give us to to Louise's point about conditioning approval on some sort of um you know additional work on getting the aesthetic to integrate uh if maybe the architect could speak a bit more about ideas for because I know you did this in very short notice some ideas for maybe improving a bit more on on what you've done here yeah let me start by talking about the local architect that showed designs that were never plotted on the problem is she came up with designs that were not plotted on by an engineer and as he would have done that they would have been significantly modified because of the topographical restraints so what she did is like most Architects to start with conceptual ideas of here's a flat property and this is what I'm considering and because of the topographical restraints and the setback restraints and the storm water restraints these started to change over time um you know we were supposed to be in front of the board a year ago almost and we were told a week a couple days before the meeting that oh oh boy we we made a mistake there was an issue with storm water and uh we had to go back to the design board and modify the townhouse units you know um we try to come in with the least amount of variances possible um and specifically to height you know the the one corner of the townhouse Row in the back still is not in compliance I mean it is in compliance when it comes to the proposed grade but not to the existing grade and so there's it's very very challenging to tie that all in together so my anticipation is whatever the local Tech local architect designed would have to be significantly modified to actually work on the site within the constraints of the zoning that was in place and all the storm water regulations I can let Jeremy talk about the front facade and he can describe it further I mean our understanding was you know hey um uh can you guys make some changes you know we don't want to see the more traditional style Windows um uh you know the roofs that were uh reconfigured it's much better it's it is much better and I and I understand what you're saying I know the stormw situation here was extremely challenging and that you know both you and the alets have you know that have um are interconnected in terms of meeting your the requirements I totally get all this and this is much much better I significantly um I think it it gives me confidence that um you can get us where we need to go I just wanted to hear a bit more from Jeremy given that time was so short um that you know there's there's there's some maybe some general ideas of ways you could um do a bit more to get this closer to the more contemporary look um that you have in some other areas some of your other sites here in in other states sure um to be honest with you I'm really not prepared to talk about you know how we would integrate flat roofs at this point um with the short timeline and having received these at 11:43 this morning from our designer um and going back and forth on a couple actually several times Alex and I and Mr pek who's our community planning and Senior Vice president before he jumped on a plane for a long weekend um trying to get this to a place where we thought it was a compromise you know I think the big thing was eliminating those turn Gables as as you said I think Mr Cohen said they they they didn't they would not fit with a more contemporary look um changing up the colors um and introducing you know you know some different elements at the roof line that are a little more modern and contemporary um we use this element several projects that we have a job in called Middletown walk in Monmouth County that um or three-story town homes that we have elevations that integrate these um again I I I just I'm not really prepared to to say what the floor plans would look like what we would have to do as far as um the roof structure the loads that we would have to bring down because obviously when you have flat roofs you have much higher loads you know having to deal with flat roof uh snow loads versus pitched roof snow loads um is signicantly different get it I get it so I mean really and it's very impressive that you were able to to even do this uh if since this morning that's you know very encouraging so other than the roof the the Gable the um other than the flat roofs are do you feel like there's if you had more time there's more that you could do to um just with the facade that wouldn't be problematic and in in terms of uh interfering with what you have on the inside yeah I think one of the the elements that we um had considered and and because of the short time frame avoided because um that particular development that you referred at the Treemont station in in Charlotte North Carolina had also had vertical board and Baton siding um and also had some a little bit of different color um variation it had actually three different facades um that were integrated together to create like four and six unit town home buildings again we just didn't have the time to be able to place I didn't want to place those was in locations where it just seemed like an empty gesture because we were introducing another material another color but certainly I think perhaps looking at areas where we could integrate vertical board and Baton siding um into you know maybe the upper level so that you have a transition from um you have a heav heavier base that's that's brick you go to a you know a a element along that has horizontal lap siding and the middle level and then there might be particular areas where we could um you know integrate um some vertical board and Baton sighting in like an arctic white you one of the places I'm kind of looking at is if you look at the second uh townhouse unit from the left the area above the red door that's an area where we could probably do like a vertical board and Baton that would play up and that again could would also happen again on the on the second one from the right so yes I believe there are gestures that we could um you know look at um to make this even a little more um I I don't know whether it needs to be more contemporary I think it might need a little more variation to be honest with you um thank you m yep thank you both uh Mr Cohen yeah just to go back to your question uh earlier Louise about a Way Forward um had a thought about that but hadn't had a chance to run it by um Mr meller yet so um would like to ask him now if he thinks it's appropriate but sort of felt like since these aesthetic concerns were a significant part of the settlement negotiation um back when we were doing that um whether it would be appropriate or possible to refer further sort of architectural design review back to the committee that was involved in the original settlement agreement because it does feel a little bit out of the bounds you know of what we're usually allowed to weigh in on anyway as a planning board you know we're not really supposed to be dictating design but I think that so resol you know if it's amendable to the applicant and it's amendable to Mr Mueller that's what I'd like to proposes that um that group um be empowered to to meet with the applicant and come up with a solution that everyone's happy with I I think you can have an outside group but members of the board can't be on it even council members yes because now we we have a pending application and um no it would be Jerry it would be approve we'd approve tonight it it's it's like a it's it would be um I see we would yeah yeah it would be post approval oh okay yeah I think that's different yeah yeah oh okay I did not I I I have I was prepared that the meeting would go in this direction because this is really what it comes down to and my concern is at least I'm hearing from Mia is can we do flat roofs and if that's the expectation we've had a senior executive at toll already tell us no so he's on a plane he's away but he's told us no and if I don't want to put myself in a position where I have a subcommittee saying well we want flat roofs and this is a subcommittee for you to get compliance and resolution and we can't accommodate that so it leaves up a lot of subjectivity on how this actually gets done I hear what you're saying moved off yeah and again it's at the last hour I mean this application has been in for a year and a half I have when calling me Eden's calling me when is the road coming in what's happening I said I don't know because I I I honestly know but we Haven we're the planning board here and we haven't actually seen it for the last year and a half planning board members have not seen it maybe planning stuff did but we didn't so you know and we saw it only a very short time before the the time it came to the first hearing and you know we actually you know if we're going to go back into who had what when let's let's let's revisit the reality that you sued the town in order to you wanted originally I think it was 70 units so you know and we yeah let's let's not revisit that with respect with respect to all it wasn't 70 units and I'm providing six affordables for sale and I'm providing 24 Mark please not not what doing Daniel Daniel Daniel enough goodness I think how about if we just build on I understand the frustration I think council president saak has made clear that she's not going to die on the flat roof Hill right and um and we're and we've also made very clear those who are um who have commented on it that this is a big Improvement a great big step in the right direction we're just asking uh to work a little bit more toward um you know what would be more ideal in terms of the uh placemaking for this entire new neighborhood which is no small thing right perhaps we could just build on the discussion that's already taken place I mean Jeremy has said that he agrees that there are areas that could be some color could be added and some other interest could be incorporated variation on this facade and on the end piece uh that David has always had some very precise suggestions about the alignment of the items the movement of a closet to allow for another window if we stay within the context of those potentially minor but doable changes I think we're fine the strong effort has been made to to meet the requests and this could be dressed further it was as has been pointed out we had very little time to work on it but um and to work with the the same settlement committee within that context just taking this and making it more attractive with design elements I would recommend that Daniel ladyy agree to do that I I I'm not here alone I have told Brothers with me can I can I ask can I just Chim in or is is one I guess question or comment um for the committee that the architecture committee I guess um Can there can there be some sort of stipulation put that we won't be asked to change anything that would then require us to come back here as far as pushing something out Beyond a building envelope or changing something uh that will ultimately have to lead back to the planning board can it just be based on material and color change as it currently stands um I mean will do everything in our power to accommodate and make it look um well the word pleasing is opinionated right but pleasing to the architecture board but we just don't want to be put in a where it's uh this looks great Z makes us reshape what the building looks like and then we're back playing you talked about color and so forth if we added to that the possibility of an additional window or change to the windows that you proposed a very short list of very specific things on this building that does not create a variance condition or materially modify the site plan I I think we've gotten really ahead of ourselves here you know because we're assuming that we we we no one should assume that we're approving tonight and I also think we haven't talked about like I'm not sure why we're even talking about flat versus um other types of roof Styles because I think the request for the what is it at the quote unquote fourth floor is um a variance condition I think we need some some to hear more about that and we we really haven't heard from the full board on how they feel about the attempt to um improve the side uh the end unit and you know it be really I I would be very interested to hear from the rest of the board whether they feel like the applicant has begun to meet um what we requested collectively at the last meeting fair point so I I would like to hear from board members of course we need to hear from the public as well um Mr um tar do you have any more testimony before get more questions from from the board no by all means let's take the questions I just remind the board that we had extensive planning testimony on each of the variance conditions at the last hearing so just they they haven't changed in any regard okay um questions from from board members new questions followup questions um go ahead Miss pear M uh I just want to clarify one thing I assume that now flat roofs are out but I want to make sure whatever they choose if they choose go that way that um we've talked about solar ready and it's easier I would assume to put it on a sloped roof than a flat roof I could be wrong about that but I want to keep in mind that whatever changes are made we would like to see that done that a possibility yeah noted thank you other um Mr meller yeah if I may in terms of H any post approval submission to an outside group I think we have to be very careful about that because we don't want it open-ended where all of a sudden whatever that group is they're demanding changes that tol is not going to agree to um and we're at an impass it seems to me the way to do this is to ask um toll um basically to do the to consider the type of things we've just been talking about for the last extended period of time and have the interaction with the planning staff I mean that's the that's the way I would do it otherwise I think we're just going to get in a a mess well in the planning staff I would think would have the maybe I'm just trying to wiggle around this but um could convene with the with the applicant to discuss these specific things that we've gone over tonight um uh you know not not something completely open-ended um and um invite the input or involve the group that Mr Cohen David do you mind who who is on the I mean it was it was the group that it was the affordable housing Committee of council so okay all right so David is just asking for the group that negotiated this originally and has negotiated all of the settlements around the shopping center and spent a lot of time trying to do this type of placemaking to finish what we were not able to finish with this site and that is you know the three members of council's affordable housing planning and Redevelopment committee but to and you know I hear what you're saying Jerry but you know Daniel says this has been uh you know around for a year and you know we weren't aware of it and and it somehow landed in our laps in this condition which was not what was originally in visioned in very extensive meetings for the settlement negotiation and I you know I'm feeling uh very skeptical at this point about uh it seems like there's a very strong and aggressive push from Toll Brothers to build this and build what they want to build I don't um you know I I'm feeling this the whole thing feels very uncomfortable but there also have been important steps forward um as everyone has has acknowledged you know this is much more pleasing and in keeping with what we're what we want at the end of the day than than what we saw earlier so I just don't want to suggest that there's been no that there's been no um uh progress and I will say you know what Mr Mueller suggested it was another option that I was thinking about before the meeting I was a little bit concerned whether staff would want to be put in the position of aesthetic Arbiters um which is why I didn't suggest it Jerry but we can ask staff how they feel about it I mean it's a good point um yeah it is a good point sure I could take that question um as you know that's generally the way uh when there are changes somewhat similar to this that we do operate we identify kind of the parameters of what staff is to look at uh really it gives the flexibility for for both staff and the applicant to make these small changes after the fact um which is more often why we do it um and I think uh between our land use team uh and the applicant we would be able to come to some sort of uh agreement uh during the compliance process uh that wouldn't necessarily hold up the application or or anything like that the most recent example slightly different but uh would be with the Hun School uh when we kind of deferred the pathways and how those might uh look um when it was identified that it wasn't going to work at the meeting uh and then we've been able to go out on site and discuss with them and come to a conclusion that works for everyone okay what kind of parameters would you envision putting around that Justin because it seems like that's what the applicant is concerned about uh I think really the the massing of the building or or the footprint essentially would stay what it is um architectural features uh in a limited scope uh you know not the change in the roof or anything like that but uh different things that could be added or or changed um without fundamentally changing the building uh materials colors nothing that would create a variance or or create a significant change to the structures and what about uh David's suggestions for the for the sides because I think his suggestions do invol uh involve some of those changes that you I just said that's a good point um I think those would would you know because they've been discussed still be in play and I think we'd be able to come to a a medium on those uh again without changing the footprint let's say maybe it changes the projections uh or where exactly the windows are um but not you know we're not talking about lopping off half a floor or anything like that Mr Green I saw your hand go up and then it went back down again sure I are you ambivalent about what we gonna say it's back up um I just did want to make a point that somebody brought up earlier and I'm not sure who it was I apologize that any suggestions that would not cause any additional waivers or variances is very important yeah yes understood and Justin just mentioned that right um other questions from from board members um and seeing none I will um open the meeting now to public comment there are 14 oh excuse me Mr Madam chair Mr uh Chalo had his hand up I'm not sure if he wanted to respond oh sorry yeah I just yeah I just wanted to say I think um obviously it's difficult to put what we're attempting to do in writing um but we are we're open to work with the board to come to a resolution as long as we're all in the same mindset that um we don't want to like change the the the building envelope and the massing but again material changes color things adding some windows um as long as it makes sense we're we would like I think we've shown so far that we're willing to work with the board to the best of our ability to um to accommodate those thank you for that thank you that's helpful um Madam chair yeah somebody had said early on I think was Mr barski that somebody would be discussing the question that David had raised at the last meeting about the sequence of construction of the access road so that uh it wasn't used after it was paved for construction purposes and then had to be repaved and maybe who who would comment on that um I can I can comment on that um do we have the slide that shows the access road so basically what would what would occur um what what uh we've done this throughout the state was that area in pink would just be paved as like a regular roadway to begin with um and then so regular traffic can go over it uh and then once we're um done with the heavy machinery and trucking throughout the site um it would all be ripped up and then redone uh with a prvious pavement that's how uh that's a handle that's how we handle it around the state we do pervious pavement um in a lot of our communities because of storm water um and that's how that's how we handle it because we understand the concern if we put it down too early um the trucks and the dirt just mess it up and clog it up so um we put down regular pavement about three inches thick and we just remove it um when we're all done when the when the time calls for it and Alex just if you could confirm that the reason that the pink section would be done first is because that the driveway and so forth that you see to the right of the roadway is winds parking area and they think they'll finish first and we'll need to be able to get out that exit so it would be paved to allow for that to happen but then made into perious payment later when we were finished correct so so there is a a larger question well an additional question about that which is how soon could the the pinkish area be done um you know because I know that the schedule for win is I think there hoping to be complete in late August or September um so I don't know I don't know how that works with the schedule for the applicant this approval has a lot to do with that Mr Co sorry I was pretty sure you were gonna say that if we give the approval tonight that you'll do it you'll have the temporary Road in uh in that Alex put you on the spot buddy um I will say when we obviously we have to close on the property in order for toll to do anything here but we're looking at about um from two months once we can get access um once we close on the property we can get that area uh we can get that area paved and realistically uh an estimate when you think it'll close um right now our schedule is projecting us to close um again Daniel you're handling the approvals on this one so I don't want to speak for you I'll let you chime in on that right it's geared to compliance if we complete compliance then you're going to buy and two months later you'd say you have the road that's little stretch well I I probably need four months from the time of approvals for Outside Agency approvals so six months total to get that part of the road in but I mean wi can say August but there's just no way I mean there's no way there ready for August they're a year away from moving ready so you know they're trying to squeeze and press and they want it done and and by the way so do we but you know um as of right now it looks like our timelines would coordinate meaning I can get Outside Agency approvals in the next four months and told Brothers closes and two months later has a rod in in six months and it looks like to me when has six plus months to finish if not more is there anyone from I'm just wondering Louise if there's anyone from the wi company in the audience who would like to speak because I I don't think it's that it's very this this sequencing is really critical and you know we do have um you know this is part of our court mandate so it's we we do is here oh and Steve is here yeah uh before we get to that I believe that part of the road uh and perhaps maybe the whole Road was actually approved as part of the win project uh so I don't think you would need to wait for the Outside Agency approvals to get started on those yeah but they can't get their COA CFA until their people can till that Paving is done so that their people can drive through but I I would I would say tol's not going to spend money and time building a part of a road that they haven't closed on the property yet so that's the that that's the constraint there I'm happy to hear from when if if they say they're going to be done in August we can take bets on it I mean they're not going to be done in August or September or October but I understand they want that part of the road in and and realistically four months for outside agencies two months for told Brothers to get that part of the road in six months and and that part of the road will be in and likely that's when when will need access to the road um okay thanks that's all helpful to know we have um two folks with hands up so far it might be that one of them is with win um uh I'll again announce it um opening up the meeting for public comments so if you'd like to to address the board um and you'll have uh uh three minutes or less to do so um up to three minutes uh now now is the time to raise your hand by clicking on the raise hand icon we have two folks um one's whose hand just went down so right now one person s Gilbert Lise oh you're moving over both of them I moved I moved Kirk over already okay okay great Lise I'm sorry I just have a question because this issue of the road is very important in the timing of the road and I'm just wondering and maybe it's a question for Jerry in terms of public comment but I and these two members of the public are from the win company so they are going to speak to Daniel and I'm just wondering if we can then bring it back to the board to talk about to continue the discussion of the road before we then open it up to public comment in general because I'm afraid we will then not finish the discussion we'll get distracted from the road yeah I think that's a good thought I do too thank you yep Mr Gest gastinger can you um activate your camera and uh unmute yourself if you could raise your right hand did you weren't Spa in the last time were you no we didn't take any public comments do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give be the truth yes so sworn or affirm please St your full name and spell your last name KK gastinger g- s t i n g r thank you well I'll be brief uh as a member of the public uh I uh support uh many of the comments that Mr Cohen and others have made regarding the design of the facility I think it uh needs uh to be moved from uh what I would call a d to at least a b but uh my comment or question as a new Resident to prin Princeton is uh I know that the density has been reduced over the design of this uh plan for some long period of time from what I understand but as a nearby resident uh I I don't understand why uh one the architecture has to look so different from what is now being constructed and then two is is uh about the density and uh I don't understand how the the design of the facility is so tight that uh even though we support the idea of reducing the number of cars in the properties is that there is no flexibility for uh visitor parking or service parking or any kind of emergency parking uh it seems that it's uh more intense than the site can actually handle that's uh my question uh my comment mostly um that's it thank you um thank you Mr Mr gaser um sorry I just mangled your name uh maybe some uh our um staff can speak to to um uh density which was um negotiated um by by Council and so um uh you know the the number of units on the site is set um and we did have testimony at the last meeting about um access uh to parking for service people and visitors and emergency um responders so so I don't know whether we want to revisit that but it has been it has been um covered yeah Mr Cohen were you about to well I was just gonna say there is visitor parking it's parallel parking on the street on the Connector Road so they're about 10 spaces I think yep uh Madam chair I was going to say the same I believe it's 11 spaces um but there are also bike Lanes coming in as part of the wind development uh there's the connection through this Connector Road to the mun and NJ Transit bus stops at the shopping center um so all of the the townhouse units do have garage space for two cars most will probably you know use at least one some will use two it's no doubt about that um but there's it's certainly not bare minimum um it's enough and then some extra to take that overflow and to you know allow for people to have a less C dependent lifestyle thank you um and in terms of the architecture I I don't mean to presume to answer your question fully but that's a big part of what we're talking about here tonight and and trying to make certain that it is um consistent with um with the rest of this uh new neighborhood so it's certainly of of concern um to this board um do we have um there was another person who had their hand up but I think they lowered their hand for now Mr Gilbert brought you brought is is is over and he is I think ready to speak thank you yeah Mr Gilbert if you I saw you had activated your camera although I can't find you on my screen at this moment oh there you are um if you okay and you unmuted yourself too okay so Mr Mueller needs to swear you in you could raise your right hand it's raised Mr meller you swear affirm the testimony about to give would be the truth yes so War toir please say your full name and spell your last name Stephen Gilbert g i l p r t vice president win development is that is that s ven PN PN okay thank you um I'm I'm responding uh to Daniel's comment that we won't be open till next year that's not the case um we're already leasing apartments for October so um you know we really need this road in by September I don't you know it's that simple okay that is very good to know anything any other comments you care to share uh no you know we're looking forward to Toll Brothers being our neighbor um this is going to be a wonderful uh neighborhood when it's done and I you know kudos to uh the uh the council team that has worked for tiously for years to put this together um it's you know their vision is is uh you know is is going to result in a in a real new Poll for Princeton you know this there's a new town center for Princeton and uh and I look forward to being part of that thank you very much thank you um so with m Mr Gilbert's testimony about the road is there anything that we need to revisit um as a board or discuss before we hear from other members of the public the details of of how I I think we now have a problem which is that I mean Jerry can speak to how we when uh when has said that they they are planning to be done by the Fall which is consistent with what we have represented to the school district and to others in the community um and they cannot get their certificate of occupancy if they do not have the ability for their new residents to drive into the entrance um and so the question becomes the sequencing of of you know H how does it work in terms of what can toll have that road ready by the fall and I I guess that that involves a series of permits which we don't know the timing of which I I I mean right Mr Barky said would he estimates would take four months um and um I have no reason to doubt his his estimate based on his experience and and we can expect that tol would not you know close until after those after Mr barsky has those um those approvals and six months from today is uh September 4th unless I have that wrong or is that October 4th it's October I think it's October 4th oh yes it is it's October 4th right yep so so very tight I mean w w told us that they didn't need that part of the road when we were negotiating so this is news to me that now they needed to get a certificate of approval but I I I would say that we're going to do our very best obviously it's in everyone's mutual interest for me to get the Outside Agency approval and close and for tol who obviously is Nationwide company to get this job done quickly which I'm sure they will and I know they've already had some communication with wi I've had some uh contact with Edens and so you know it's kind of been on hold because I said hey guys we're going through the planning board approval process and um you know let's get over that hump once we get over that then I'll have a better idea of timeline but obviously we're going to work with wi W is um uh assisting us with some issues we have with storm water and uh to get our storm water out of our property so we have a mutual interest to make it work and we're going to do everything in our power to meet the timeline so that wind can move forward um you know there's not could we hear from I'm just wondering if we could hear first of all I want to say that Mr B you've represented things that wi said to you uh a number of times and we don't have someone we just had Mr Gilbert but we don't have a counterpart from wi and so I think the board should understand that that's essentially a form of hearsay you are representing what win has said to you in conversations we are not hearing from win what you are saying is not consistent with my awareness of um the dialogue between the two parties so I just think the board should know that you know that is what you are saying it's your your one-sided representation of what has taken place in a closed conversation between two parties and so I do think Daniel's under oath though so we to put a to put a point on it he doesn't get paid he doesn't get paid until the the compliance is completed there's a lot of incentive to get the compliance completed uh right you know that there's just no disagreement of fact there except when they think they're going to be done and who knows right yeah I mean so one one of the obvious Alternatives would be for when to go ahead and put in the temporary road that we were just talking about um but I think that their position might be that you know it's tol's responsibility to do that because told just represented that they need to do that for their construction access anyway so then the question is can there be an arrangement to compensate when for doing the road I'm not sure this is really the board's purview to be negotiating the financial Arrangements between these two parties but there there are there are other options besides just hoping that the schedule works out um to have toll do do the whole construction so you know again something that I T I did get a chance to talk with Jerry about before the meeting because I had concerns about this was the possibility that there could be condition that part of the compliance is to have an agreement between toll and when as to exactly how things are going to proceed um you know and and what the financial responsibilities are and I think that should be able to be uh negotiated because as everyone keeps pointing out they have aligned interests so it should just be a matter of sitting down and talking through and coming to some agreement on you know what's what's going to work best both sequencing and financially yep could could we hear from Mr Weissman uh on just his uh sense of the sequencing of the road based on what we've just heard from Mr Gilbert and Mr barsky Dan thank you madam chair absolutely council president um having a temporary entrance and holding off for the construction of the storm water management uh prvious pavement and underd drains um sounds like a a mutually agreeable alternative um the concern of of having construction access going over a perious pavement driveway with underd drains would cause significant would likely cause uh some some rework and damage that would have to be done at the end of the job um having that temporary roadway in place uh I think alleviates a lot of that concern um the one thing that would affect the wind property because the design of that roadway was uh considered part of that application regardless of who's constructing it um their final Co would be contingent on having that roadway completely constructed per the plan um so a temporary co could be issued for the building with that secondary entrance constructed um but the temp that that temporary would have to be extended until the entirety of the barski toll property is constructed and do you see any issue in terms of this tight time time frame that we've just been discussing so let's say everything goes as planned is is it possible that whoever whoever builds the road and whoever pays for it that that um that the road could be built in time for October occupancy on the Alice it's hard to say it's an extremely tight timeline um the construction of a temporary driveway uh is significantly less than the construction of a full roadway um so it I think there should be some consideration of of having this constructed on wind's property which is already approved which is a temporary measure um without having the the full final approval I think that's something that could be considered um I don't know why it would have to hold up the entirety of of when 's development to have this built um obviously the the cost share is is a big question but I think we're just talking about curbs uh and some base course Pavement in the time being um for a small section of roadway and then once it's ripped but then when that's ripped up how would the residents I mean how would they get in and out of the Alice while during that period in which it's being ripped up and repaved it would have to be staged uh You' put up temporary traffic control where maybe you have one lane open for Ingress or egress um and then the continuity of the driveway out to to North Harrison um would continue okay is there anything else question and thanks for the answer anything else we should think of Dan we what question have we not asked Dan that you think exactly exactly have I think that's it I think uh and nothing else comes to mind at this time okay thank you um it's coming up on 9:30 and um I don't think I think there's a ways to go here and so I would like to um take a break um and reconvene at um 9:35 that's nine minutes from now um hope that's okay with everybody we'll we'll re we'll reconvene and start promptly at 9:35 thanks almost back activate our cameras and reconvene I'm sure there we go there's Mia um so I think we can uh do we need there does there need to be any more discussion uh of uh the road before we hear from other members of the public who may wish to speak right now there are no hands up um Mr Cohen yeah I I do just want to mention you know that in addition to what we've talked about as comp possible complications around the road the last complication and this isn't the applicants fault you know or wind's fault uh but it's is the dog leg is the purple part of the road connects to the shopping center and I think that also needs to get hashed out um you know I think with the municipality at least in the room um also um ideally with the shopping center owners in the room so I just put that out there because because I do think that a followup conversation needs to happen to come up with a plan for the entire road that uh meets every body's needs and so I had briefly suggested before we broke that you know having a condition um of approval that requires that an agreement to be reached between the parties um you know would be um important prudent for yeah yeah yeah uh agreed so there are 11 um members of the public attending um if any of you would like to address the board at this time now is the and haven't already done so now is the time to uh click on the raise hand icon you can be brought over and sworn in and speak I'm not seeing any hands go up uh going once going twice okay I'll close the public um comment portion of the meeting and let's talk about our path forward um there are a few conditions that have been uh talked about I guess before we go over those are there any other um comments or thoughts that board members want to discuss or articulate just yep yeah um at the outset Justin had gone over what he saw as the outstanding issues Justin do you want to direct the board to any discussion on any of them let me pull up my list uh real quick I think since last time uh the redesign of the architecture we've discussed is having a condition of Staff working with the applicant uh to make changes within those parameters we discussed earlier uh fence materials um that's up to the board to decide uh the applicant mentioned the solid Cedar six-foot uh fence um we talked about the status of the mag magnolia trees with the three Replacements in the front yard uh in in place of the two that uh Mr uh Dober milsky spoke about before for the reasons why it'd be nearly impossible or impossible to uh change those uh keep those excuse me um the HOA operations and and documents we discussed earlier um I don't think the Board needs any more information on that but correct me if I'm wrong um we will need those uh after the fact uh the parking spaces and how they'll be assigned to the affordable units I think it seemed like everyone was kind of in agreement that that makes sense [Music] um and then the road obviously is the only other discussion well actually the reason I raised my hand was to talk about the fourth floor and the variance for that which um I just want to support um I think that having that living space on the fourth floor uh really doesn't have any negative implications um and you know I do I think we heard this testimony before it was contemplated at the time of the settlement agreement uh because we had a definition of um usable space that was more generous at that time and the the design does conform to that so it's only a variance because of the zoning change that would happened between when the uh settlement was negotiated and now so I I'm in support of that I don't think has a a negative um any any serious negatives and I think there's strong reason to support it good thank you for that um Freddy pearlmutter yeah uh okay uh I just wanted to say uh us ask if we can add add a condition the solar uh ma matters that we talked about in terms of what they have to put in for construction now to make sure that everything is at least solar ready if they don't put solar in right now I leave it to David to say specifically what it is because that's beyond my I think it would be real it's a really good point and I think it would be helpful I I know we can't do this tonight on the fly but um for the municipality to um for the benefit of um applicants and homeowners identify what solar ready means for a multi-unit um dwelling I mean I I'm in a duplex I have solar on my roof and my neighbor doesn't I save a ton on electricity and my neighbor doesn't um and uh and we have a a two-unit homeowner association I'm I'm not saying all of that to make this about me at all I'm just saying that um uh I I guess you know as long as all uh as long as Homeowner Association is okay with one or more of its number putting panels on the Roof then that homeowner or that family should be able to benefit you know um you know with the much lower electric bills anyway um and and if we don't have a clear we don't have clear direction for um applicants and developers about what it is that we mean by solar ready then it's a you know maybe a moving Target and that's not fair yeah yeah I I and I I just wanted to suggest you know because there's a little bit of gray area there this may be one of those instances where we um ask you know have a condition that they um make every effort you know to to make it solar ready so just in case we you know find out that there is something prohibitive um but I you know I I heard everything Daniel said about it being difficult to her the cats and get everybody to agree in the Homer Association but we also just have to be super cognizant that conditions today are not the same as conditions in five years or 10 years and there's going to be a lot I think a lot more incentive to have the solar panels I think circumstances are going to change in such a way that they will be there there will be an interest in it at some point and it and you know it's a lot harder to make it solar ready after the thing is built and people are occupying the space so if it's not prohibitive and it sounded like you know toll would be amenable to doing it as long as it wasn't prohibitive so I I think that that's the solution for that for you know is to to make every effort to make it Sol ready but not not an absolute mandatory yeah what what about the idea that that they're going to run cond it from the the roof to the appropriate place in the building I I I think that that's part of it but the part that I don't know the answer on for sure is then how does the power that's coming down from the roof get distributed to the six units in the you know and maybe the maybe the right thing to do is to run six conduits six separate solar installations one for each townhouse I don't I don't know what the right answer is but I and and for that reason I don't feel uh I don't feel comfortable imposing a specific okay requirement yeah we have no problem talking to our um solar consultant just to understand what that is and um do our best to make sure that in the future if the homeowner association decides to have it um that we're doing the right thing now um to provide them with it again I think you hit it on the nose we don't know what those restrictions are but we're definitely willing to consult with them find out what it is um and um and figure out a way to uh to at least make it ready to make it easier for an install at a later date thank you for that Mr CH Chalo um council president sax yeah I'm if someone could refresh my memory maybe the applicant um on what the other sustainability measures are that the uh applicant is deploying in this development um I'll just say that the other uh sites in this neighborhood um have gone to Great Lengths the both uh the Alice and Princeton Senior Living um the heating and cooling systems are fully electrified um uh the Alice is uh I think reaches a passive house envelope certification at will when it's constructed um and all of the the both the Avalon sites and Princeton Senor living in the Alice all have a combination or all of uh Zero Energy homes ready and or lead certified um and um you know the the Avalon shopping center was not able to do uh Heating and Cooling electrification of heating and cooling because it requires a generator on site and there wasn't enough space but you know um all of these sites have gone above and beyond State Statute um and of course that was possible because they were um the town was able to impose that because it was within a Redevelopment framework but it certainly gave us a sense of what what is possible um and it there certainly would be a a wide discrepancy if um this site we not at least uh attempting to do some of what all of the other sites have have really um are are doing pretty amazing things and and maybe we touched on this uh in the first meeting but I I don't remember hearing in depth and would be interesting to hear I I would like to know what what they're planning in this Arena thank you for that question Mr Green you've got your hand up you want to respond yeah absolutely um lower my hand so it's not going up and down um yeah I believe the last time um we talked about six weeks ago I had gone in I sort of gone into great length about um what Toll Brothers does now for energy compliance uh that is well above and beyond the new state regulations that were implemented uh into into law under the uh uh residential energy act as well as the uh ashray 90 uh for multif family commercial buildings um follow the New Jersey clean clean energy program now for our which is our uh compliance certification path for um meeting the energy code it's above and beyond I think I testified that most of our homes uh will be 15 to 20% above the Baseline uh 2001 uh International um energy conference conservation code which is quite significant uh while we are not going the route currently of all electric um we are going to to um things like um on demand gas fir fired um single Source um hot water heaters so that there's no uh and these are all energy STAR certified uh the glazing our envelope all meet the energy star compliance uh and that sort of thing um one other thing I didn't touch upon was um the way that we construct buildings we actually have a plant in Morrisville where we uh fabricate all of our panels and our trusses in roof trusses and for systems uh they are shipped uh very locally I believe it's less than 30 miles to a site like this um basically zero waste uh panels come out all pre-fabricated pre-drawn it's basically an Ikea kit ofarts uh typically we have about 5% waste on site most uh construction sites are anywhere up you know anywhere to 10 to 15% wayte so yes we have gone to Great Lengths um to that um full LED um you know Lighting systems all cut off in timer systems uh so yeah that's part of our vernacular currently and uh it's something like I said we implemented about a year ago so we're still learning uh but we're finding that that's a a great selling point and it is contributing to you know the energy conservation effort um you know throughout the state thank you if I will add one more thing it also is going to benefit the homeowners long term to have and be living in energy efficient homes yes um other questions other thoughts from board members or from staff I am not seeing any so um um and we're finished with public comment do we do we want to talk about um emotion and conditions Mr tar you're on mute sorry could I just take a moment to remind you that we had those PR variances that were mentioned uh tonight the solids to voids the sign location and the building height there were also two essentially waivers of the sis requirements um on page four of the memo from February um 12 um one is the water line that the American Water Company wants to put in is not a loop water line and the other is that there are significantly more um parking spaces uh on the site than required by local ordinance but if it's just a few fewer than are required by the rsis so those are waivers if we could add those to the package of things to be considered okay and just to clarify um there are actually two height variances one for the number of floors and one for the height in feet for that last building correct it's it was 2.4 feet taller if you went from the existing grade instead of the finished grade yeah Miss sex yeah I so I mean I don't think we're ready to make a motion because we haven't fully articulated what the condition related to the road was and and just to reiterate what Mr Cohen had said um he's proposing that there be an agreement between uh wind development barski toll um and Edens on the sequencing of the road um I think the we can't uh speak to I mean would we David were you proposing that we request that they reach an agreement on the cost sharing um see sequencing sequencing and cost sharing I mean essentially because I mean I feel like there was fair agreement tonight on the fact that there should be a temporary road for the first um portion to access wind's site so uh so maybe sequencing isn't that big of a deal but when we start I think it's a big deal I think it's the big deal right and who's responsible for for each of those pieces and cost sharing right if if toll builds the whole thing it's one thing if wind builds part of it needs to be compensated it's another so yeah I think sequencing and cost sharing um are the major issues so I guess we need to ask Miss I guess we just need to ask Mr tar if if he is if the applicant is is um willing to um partic to have that you know how they if they're willing to participate in that process that can sure I mean I I'm slightly concerned that we're in a hurry to get the road build and we're going to have a four-party negotiation that doesn't sound consistent the settlement agreement is very clear about the rectangular area that's barsky's responsibility that toll is going to take over um so but you know and I I I have to actually agree I think David adding I I would like for Edens to to be part of this discussion but to be fair adding the do leg which is you know has been a very um vexing and challenging additional part of this um and the dog leg for people who don't know that is the little curve at the bottom that is that goes into the shopping center um it is not the dog park it is the road to dog um hope not but but I mean it is so critical as a part of the conversation because because if that's not sequenced if that's not part of the same construction it's not TOS responsibility but if it's not part of the whole construction then we have questions about construction access for the dog leg that can destroy the the the other part of the roadway so it would make all the sense in the world whe when you finish the get rid of the the temporary driveway into wind it should all be done and barski tollers are to pay for the rectangular piece that comes up against the dog leg Yeah so it has to be part of the conversation whether whether we bring Edens in or we don't and we just figure it out and then we take the risk the town takes the risk that we can get Edens to agree to whatever we right we we we figure out I mean but it has to be part of the conversation understand so Daniel's pointed out that the compliance period is four months during that period of time it's very logical for all those four parties to get together with your help to come to terms great so what's the right way to and I don't mean to get ahead of ourselves but it seems like we're at the point where we need to decide how a condition reads um or the at least the basics of it um that provides for exactly that so it would be uh an agreement between all four parties on the sequencing of the construction of the road and the cost chairing okay but and and that involves a meeting and it involves um a time frame it's part of the compliance process so it's the sort of four months that Chris was just talking about okay but hopefully much sooner than that yeah that's that's sort of the Jerry how would we as soon as practicable how would we uh uh articulate that Jerry you're on mute yep um I would just start there uh one of the conditions is there been agreement between tol win uh Eden and and Princeton as to Road sequencing and car sharing um and the including the dog leg to the um the shopping center um and I would leave it at that okay uh but the cost sharing on the dog leg for myself or told no no no you are so I just I just want to make sure that that's clear so that there's not confusion later super clear Daniel super clear it's it's you're it's very clear in the settlement you are not consist right all consistent with the settlement yeah language very good very good good um and the condition surrounding um further discussions about architectural features uh was that the applicant will work with the planning office um to refine [Music] um uh or address specific questions raised tonight including um a variation of color and materials uh window type and location and we want to say something about consistency with the the work to bring the development into um a aesthetic consistency what's I think that I think that goes a little too far we we're we we're going to agree to specifics about the windows the color the alignment of the door with the space above it and things of that sort architectural features generally but that's just the side Chris I mean we we're talking and the front the front as well the long side as well as the short side I mean I think what I mean maybe Mr Green can put some language around this but what he described I I found very promising he talked about boards the materials that involves materials you know but I think you know the point is it's not something that would in any way create a new variance condition or you know so require another drip back here right yeah right right to the we could we could pick up you go back in listen to the tape and pick up those architectural terms he used about the types of boards he might incorporate or different colors that might be used materials materials yeah he's referred specifically to bordon Baton and to um brick I think and and one word I caught was variation because as you look you know at one uh one dwelling next to another um it's so much more pleasing when you can tell where one one house uh stops and another another one starts I mean without making it busy obviously I'm not an architect but um do you want to add anything Mr Green uh or have we no I think you've done a good job paraphrasing the variation in materials um looking at um reworking the FL plan so that we can introduce additional windows on the end elevation to increase our penetration ratios and make the window make a little more sense um and that sort of thing yeah I I hear and I believe Alex and I have been texting we're loud and clear on what the in the board's intent is for us to move forward thank you for that uh and Madam chair that conversation will be based on the uh architectural drawing we saw tonight I'm not sure what the exhibit number was but I know was dated April 3rd correct for the courtyard elevation Justin yes the courtyard and the end yeah that's the the courtyard is 20 the um the end is 19 slide it's slide 19 and 20 yeah of EX of exhibit to so just to be clear though for the for the board we're going with the green we're not going with what we talked about last time yeah just start okay that's correct Mr Weissman thank you madam chair uh just a question um with the these changes so the variance for the fenestration is based off of a ratio um the ratio is essentially set in the fenestration of the courtyard um so if there's a potential to add Windows uh I would just request that the variants be granted on meaning a a minimum number for the access road facad um currently it's at 14.8 uh so I think it would just be important to have that ref Ed in the condition that these architectural changes should not uh decrease that penetration lower than 14.8% great goal is to increase yeah and I like where where Dan weissman's head is that is like very specific goals and that's what I was trying to speak to earlier is that so it's not very Broad and subjective where we're back in front of the board in two months because there's some misunderstanding if there's a way to frame it so that I mean we understand one another what everybody wants but so that it's specific enough so that it meets the standards in the resolution compliance so that we can move forward get the project complete get the road built all the rest so I mean I think that's a good point from Dan and if there's anything else to add which I personally can't think of at the moment which can very specifically identify hey this is what our goals are um and it it's material change color change it's fenestration what it is plus better you know I I think that would be helpful and make me feel more comfortable with the process um I I have full faith in the board and in staff but it helps everybody when there's you know part of the problem is Clarity is Clarity is you know when I originally when we originally settled the settlement agreement um the committee had one thing in mind I had another thing in mind and there was you know for example the fenestration matching was not possible and the town had in mind that the doors beond the side entrance and that was kind of missed and now we're sorting through it now you know years later I I don't want that happen we are so close yeah everything you say makes me really feel uncomfortable you're not helping yourself or the cause of moving this forward let let's continue to to talk about the specifics of of um of conditions and whether there are and and I I understand your point um Mr barsky about about certainty and um and and Madam chair if I may just Daniel I'll do first draft of the resolution I'll circulated to our own staff and to Chris and we'll massage it and we'll get it in a form that everybody is good with okay yeah I David sorry go ahead go ahead yeah if I may I like what Dan um was saying about that we would not reduce what's currently proposed on the end elevation and that we would as to Daniel's point I think goals setting goals are good that we would look or attempt to increase that ratio um based upon you know plan redesigns right and could I ask for David's input on any specific language that you feel would be helpful in terms of the uh the sides the side units yeah I mean um we'll all get a chance to actually review the um resolution you know we have to vote on it so I will certainly look at it at that time if it's proper for me to look at the resolution prior to that I would um be happy to do that yeah we usually don't in fact we never circulated to the board boards in both both in Princeton and my other towns uh in advance just because when you have so many people involved um it becomes um much more complicated to get things done particularly well not with the intent to edit by committee but just uh for his eyes yeah but that I mean I I don't want to give myself a special status that I may think I deserve but may not be legal so I'll let you take a peek at my copy David and if we could could include in that just I I don't want to forget those those windows off to the side on the side there there really needs to be I don't know how you would I I don't feel the need for something speciic the left side yes other than some attention should be given to those windows and I I feel like Mr Green has a good sense of what what needs how they could be improved I already did a sketch it's on my desktop excellent excellent excellent the whole feel like we've already touched on everything that I'm concerned about and it's just a question of getting it into the into the resolution right and into the plan um anything else this is a a minor thing compared with others that we've talked about but I really do want to thank the applicant for um changing the fence from white plastic to Cedar I really uh really appreciate that very much and um and the and the picnic tables as well I think they'll be used and appreciated and um and just in general in uh with your interest and openness um to working with us on on these things I think we all we all want the same great project to happen um are there other anything else that anybody wants to raise um Jim Kamal mentioned the sign sign sorry y Jim calik mentioned the sign variants I think that's on the list that we just referenced but he wanted to be sure yeah yeah it's one of the four on the list thank you madam I apologize for record no no problem um I I could go through um all the memos and just identify for the board U what what should be um conditions I don't know that I need to do that and as I go over it with with Justin and Dan um if there are things that they disagree um with me on they think should be added or should be deleted you know we we can do it that way and certainly the board will will get the chance when it comes back to it to make any changes at once yeah I I would appreciate that approach um you know incorporating the the the conditions that are set forth in the memos and those that we've talked about tonight um if you want to read you know the um the wording you've jotted down about the specifics of the road and Architectural uh related conditions um you know that's great but as to the ones that are in the um you know suggested in the memos unless the applicant wants to point to any that they refuse uh or dispute then I think we can no dispute assume nothing in dispute you're okay with all of them Mr tar yes okay and and I'll just say I think we already did hear Jerry's wording for the condition on the road yeah right so I'm comfortable with that and good yeah I think that there's so much floating out there right now regarding the condition for the uh facade modifications I think I think we should let him gather you know gather his thoughts and and draft something rather than try and do it on the Fly because there's a so I'm ready to make a motion excellent thank you I'd like to make a motion to approve with the uh conditions which are uh a agreement between four parties uh Edens the municipality of Princeton wind development company I guess it's five actually barski uh the barski company Corporation and Toll Brothers on the sequencing and cost sharing of the Connector Road between trune and the shopping center um work with the between the applicant and Princeton's planning staff on uh Improvement of the facade and side units um in keeping with what we've discussed tonight if I need to be more specific Jerry let me know no I think it I think it's right on the money um and granting I think it's four variances height uh the existing grade solids and solids and voids uh the sign and and the fourth the story right thought I said that yeah um anything else the two waivers with with respect to the and the two the two waivers and the solar and the solar ready right thank you Freddy yeah and any other conditions uh that have been agreed upon within the reports right so um council president SE has moved Mr Cohen could I also uh ask that landscape subcommittee be um asked to review the Magnolia locations I saw that there were a couple of tentative locations on the plan but I think that needs a little bit more work um so you know accepting the three as replacement for the two but I I'd like to have landscape subcommittee review the exact placement of Magnolias thanks as is often the case the environmental commission had a lengthy memorandum with some aspirational suggestions again when I said that we comply with the particulars it's the specific items that we've discussed tonight okay so we have a motion I'm sorry second I I I was just gonna say to David's point about the landscape committee I I if for whatever reason in you know I mean we did hope it's very sad that we're losing those mature trees it's always sad to lose mature trees um but if for whatever reason in creating in replacing them with new Magnolias if for some reason the new placement with that particular type of tree doesn't work I would be open to considering some alternate recommendation for a tree with a preference I'm I'm sorry man David for the the landscape committee review it wouldn't just be the location of the the three new Magnolias it would be the whole landscape plan correct I I mean that's what we usually do we usually do um I'm not sure what what all is up in the air yeah I mean it seemed like the rest of it um there isn't much dispute about it but if there certainly if there's anything yet to be resolved about the planting plan yeah yeah and I'm okay with the substitution of the Evergreens that um Dan um weighed in on um and uh but I I am curious about the plant mix for the um um for the bio retention uh that kind of thing not to you know second guess or anything like that just just out of of Interest so maybe we can look at that as well yeah we want that all pinned down yeah so we have a motion from Council president Sachs is there a second second oh David mat Matt you're you raised your hand no I never want to that's okay it's uh okay so moved by by Miss saach seconded by Mr bodimer um uh Carrie will you call the role please yes certainly Mr bodimer hi Miss capoli yes Mr Cohen yes Mr McGowan yes Mr odonnell yes Miss pearlmutter yes Miss saxs yes Miss Wilson Anderson yes Mrs Wilson yes motion carried okay thank you thank you um Everybody Mr barski all of you from tol Mr Chalik Mr tar thank you for um everything and look forward look forward to uh you know making these refinements and um and uh seeing your your project happen Adam CH believe there is a formality uh yes that that is that falls to Mr Cohen yes so I was gonna say that anyone is welcome to move or second anything in this meeting except move to a journ that's [Laughter] that's is Mr T are you seconding that motion or you're just saying goodbye I'm seconding and good night is there a second all in favor say hi thank you everyone really appr see you next week special meeting on the 11th yep good night have a good night