Okay, let's let's swear everybody in um both at the same time, our guys and your guys. If everybody could raise their right hands and Jim, if your twin could change his name so we actually know who he is, that would be cool. Yeah, Dan, that upper right hand corner
of your screen, there's a blue square. If you put your cursor on it and right click, and you should be able to rename yourself. Oh, okay. Let's see. Just hover over that upper right corner. I was thinking you really changed your look.
I was thinking that, too. And my first thought, too, I was like, "Oh my gosh, what happened to Jim?" What happened to Jim? Exactly. Been a long year, guys. Been a long year. I ran into Jim's mother-in-law for in
some bizarre uh circumstances on Friday and actually was telling her that I wish I had a clone of of Jim. So, here we have it. We got it. Uh, okay. I clicked apply. Did it No, it didn't change your name.
Oh, here's another one. Okay. Oh, I see. Okay. There you go. Nice. Great. Thanks. If everybody is going to testify, raise their right hand. You swear or affirm the testimony about to give be the truth? I do. I do. Yes,
we can go around first with the um 4 469 Ewing uh witnesses and then our own experts and give you full name spell your and spell your last name. Sure. James Kamalac, ch I l a k
engineer, can show resources. Dan Burke, landscape architect, rock paper garden. Um, it for them. Dan Doberilski, landscape architect for the municipality. D O B R O M I L S K Y.
Justin Leco, planning director. L S Ko, uh, planning director. Jim Pcell, acting land use engineer, P U R C L. And uh I actually am not here
to testify on this, but if you need my assistance, I'll I'm happy to jump in. I'm here for 900 Herontown. I I see Marina's name. Is she not testifying though? Hi. I wasn't planning on it since this
is not architecture related, but I'm here in case anybody has any questions or anything. Yeah, I don't see a need. Ryan, is that is that correct? Yeah, I I don't really see uh So, I'll just quietly mute myself and
hang out here in case anybody needs me. And we have a few other staff members from my office that uh are here, but we don't expect them to testify. You want me to get started, Justin? Yes, please do. So, good morning everyone. Um this is
the landscape subcommittee meeting of October 1st. Um we're first the first application is 469 Yuing Street uh previously known as IO Delhi. I think I said that right. Um I can uh share my
screen and put up the landscape plan. Are you seeing it? Just about. It's starting. There you go. There it is. You got it. Yep. Okay. So, if you remember this plan, um,
let me see if I can zoom out just what happened. There we go. So, Euing Street is here. If you recall, I think there was a single home on the property, and they got approval to put in uh um
I can't remember the numbers, two dwellings and two ADUs, I think, um if I recall properly, with the idea of a single central driveway and kind of parking court in the middle. Um and so with the conditions of there were four
conditions for the landscape subcommittee or that may relate to landscape subcommittee. Uh the first condition was to show a phantom sidewalk that could be constructed in the future when there is other sidewalk along Euing Street and they are showing that. The second
condition was to prepare a detailed a more detailed landscape plan subject to review and approval by the landscape subcommittee. Uh it was required that the plan use native species of appropriate offer appropriate root protection zones and shall be subject to
approval by the municipal landscape architect and arborists. They've done that. That's what this plan is. Um there the comments back to you that I sent to you in August 13 indicated that they have shown the the protective root
barriers and um however the plan did not exclusively use native species. In particular, there were some street trees that were called out as machia. Um and then there were some some of the
shrubs around the units were included. uh some boxwood, some non-native boxwood, uh some non-native um smoke bush kennis and some alium and I think there's also some nandina.
Yes, not large quantities, but they were they were there. Uh and I'd suggested that they consider not alternates for those. Uh just for context, um there are um 30 new 33 new trees, 127
new shrubs, and 86 new perennials proposed on the plan. And the number of non-natives was a very small number in comparison to that. They did um change the machia to a different uh native
species in response to the comments, but they would prefer to keep the the non-native uh boxwood um smoke bush um alium perennial and the
nandina on the plan. And those are are pretty much like foundation plantings uh on the plan. Uh, and I did review that and noted that um, of those species, none of them are on the non-native or
the invasive plant list strike strike list that is commonly used. Uh, Nandina can be a little bit invasive. Um, so, uh, it's really a matter of that's that's the main question of this
meeting, I think, is is it acceptable for them to use a few of those shrubs around the foundation of these plant of these buildings, or would you prefer that they try and change everything over to native? Um, and I'll come back to that because that's the main comment.
I'll cover the other two comments and get them out of the way if that makes sense to everyone. So the um third condition was that they properly label or red maples a native species. They did that and the final one was that if there is a any storm water management or rain
gardens required that they should be subject to review and approval. If you remember at one time they were talking about putting a rain garden in the front according to this plan at least that is not currently proposed which I'm assuming means that it's not yet necessary or hasn't been deemed to be
necessary. Um so based upon that it really comes down to uh some boxwood, some smoke bush, some aliium and some nandina which is um heavenly bamboo. Uh whether the committee feels comfortable
that in very small quantities uh that's acceptable or not. That's it. Okay. Thank you. Um, first I want to maybe hear from um the landscape professional why those
are so important. Yeah, sure. So the um the boxwood it's um a total of four dunk boxwood which is a fairly compact vestig upright evergreen. Um uh and I have them located
at the upper and lower corners of the two ADU units. And to find a native evergreen, which I'm already using a bunch of native evergreens around the perimeter screening that could stay that compact would be a bit of a challenge.
So I and I' I've used these boxwoods many many times. They're they're disease resistant pretty much. They um uh they're not invasive. Um, so it seemed like it was a good candidate just to give that uh evergreen vertical punctuation. Um, the katinus, the smoke bush, there's
two of those and they are at the top of the front the the top of the the two dwelling units. There's a purple symbol like a big spider on the top and then there's one at the bottom, the mirror image. Um, those I just wanted to bring in because that's a fairly compact smoke
bush and I wanted to try to extend the flowering time a little bit. um because they flower much later in the season and they have a really spectacular fall color. Um they as I said they stay compact. Um they're noninvasive. Um and
then the other uh nandina are in the front of the foundation planting of both the houses and that was again just to give a little bit of color diversity um because they have a really nice um leaf color that changes over the course of the season. and they have a nice little
berry, a small flower, and they have a very compact growth habit. And they're all pretty much uh as much as you can be deer resistant. Um and then the last one is the aliium, which is a perennial, a flowering onion. And um those um I just
all my whenever I plant those, that's like my client's favorite plant and it flowers late in the season. It has a really nice little globe head that blows in the we wind and it's a good pollinator. um they're not invasive. So, I just thought that would be a you know, maybe that would be something we could work with. If not, I could find
substitutes. I just don't think I think it would just cut back a little bit on the aesthetic of the overall landscape plan sequentially as it goes through the seasons. Okay, thanks. All right, let's open it up to um questions. Uh any any questions
about these selections? I can't see the I saw Dave's hand up and I Go ahead. Go ahead, David. Yeah, thanks, Julie. I I just wonder whether I I I find the landscape architect's testimony uh convincing, but
I want to go back to what Dan Dropilski touched on in regard to the absence of a rain garden from in these plans. And I it's more of a question for uh Jim, but it seems like there's a lot of new impervious coverage compared to the
existing condition. And I'm just curious how you are managing storm water if it's not with rain gardens. Sure. Um I guess specifically that we have not increased any of the
impervious coverage with this plan. We are still below that uh 36% impervious coverage pursuant to the approval. Um, and also bec if you recall, we had the ADUs at the front of the property originally and the single family at the
rear and that lended itself to the possibility of using a rain garden in the front yard because the ADUs don't have basements. But now that it's switched um, and the lower portion of the property at the rear, we have the ADUs. We're actually,
if you recall, you know, it's been a long time, so we don't really recall the details of this, but we're still, we're utilizing pvious pavement here within the common driveway for green infrastructure. And then we're also conveying um the relatively small amount
of water that we need to infiltrate um as part of underground storage, which is near this ADU in the upper leftand corner of the property. So, we're still managing all of the required storm water management and engineering staff had reviewed that and found that
satisfactory. Um but again because the plan has changed and the building locations have changed and this is also sort of the the more upland area the front of the buildings from a drainage standpoint. Um this is the system that
works for us. Uhhuh. Okay. and Jim Purcell, all that. You you or Dan Weissman looked at that. Are you familiar with those conversations? Um, I am not, but Dan had before he left
signed off on all of this and uh I was just now looking at the plans because I noticed uh cuz cuz this came up and I do see the pvious asphalt pavement and the under drain system and um I haven't looked at the storm water calculations
but I'm going to put my faith in Dan Weissman who signed off and uh and and issued the compliance uh review. So, okay. Okay, great. Okay, great. Other questions? I think
Yeah, Louise, sorry. I should I should use my raise hand icon. No worries. I'm having my screen is really small, so I'm having trouble seeing everybody. I'm gonna stop sharing. I can't. Oh, no. It's okay. It's okay. I can
No, no. I like having it up there. I first wanted to say I I think that um it's a really interesting uh landscape plan and I I'm commend the landscape architect for some very cool
and interesting plant choices and all. I am concerned about um the Nandina. First of all, this is maybe my own ignorance, but I thought Nandina was native. Maybe there's also a
native plant called Nandina, but um so I'm not familiar. So is it it's it must not be like other landscape bamboos. Can you talk about that? Because bamboo makes me very nervous. Yeah, it's one of the problems with
common names, heavenly bamboo. Um, it has that name because it has a bamboo like sort of slightly bamboo-l like leaf shape. It's not it's not in the bamboo family. It's not a So, it's it's not a terrifying runner that travels everywhere. Um, and this particular one
uh that I'm using, the Gulf Stream is a dwarf compact one. It gets about maybe 24 to 30 inches. So, sort of like um like a spyhea sizewise. I think it may be more common in the south and that's why it's not kind of native here.
Okay. Right. So, yeah. So, it is native to the south or you know I'm trying to remember it it doesn't show up um I I mean GFream suggests to me that it's a native to the south in particular and
I think I remember looking that up before and finding that out. Um but it's definely not to New Jersey. I don't think it is native to to the south. It's it's uh I think it's Asian. Can try and look that up
originally, but it may be more widely used in the south, but um yeah, sorry, I didn't raise my hand, but um you know, it you might want to consider alternatives to that. Um winter berry holly or red twig dogwood that could also add
some visual interest in, right? Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I I love I love berries, berry plants. Um, and the and they have such great benefits for wildlife, but the non-native ones tend to have much much
lower nutritional value and etc., etc., you know, more sugar, less fat or something like that. And and so if you can pick berry that is native, those are good good suggestions.
But but is the is the plant poisonous? I mean, it has um berries, so it might be better to choose a native version that has berries birds can actually eat. Okay. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. The compact red twig's nice.
It's native to Asia, China, and Japan and India, but it was introduced in America in the 1800s and has become kind of prevalent. It's like wisteria. It's everywhere. Yes. So,
um, anyway, that's the one that that that jumped out at me. And I I can um I tend to be pretty uncompromising when it comes to native plants, but there's so many uh interesting native plants on here. I'm
not going to die in a ditch over four boxwoods and two smoke bushes and some and some perennial nodding onions or whatever they are. That and they are really cool looking. So that sounds good. So is that a kind of a consensus that
the heavenly bamboo is the one we would like you to change but the other ones are acceptable? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Did you have anything else? Um, no, no, I don't have anything else. Otherwise, I think it's it's a really
nice plan. So, um, I think it'll be amazing to see this. Great. You're really thoughtful. David, any any other comments? No. Okay. All right. So, um, yeah, it sounds like that's the only one.
Um, and we need to vote on this, right? Yes. Okay. It looks like M Mr. Burke, were you trying to say something? I was just looking for my little hand icon. Just one quick note I just wanted to make um regarding the perimeter uh screen planting along the property
lines. Um those locations I mean with with screen planting when you have existing materials in and there's some regrading being done. Those are those are conceptual locations. they're approximate, but um depending on when the ex some of the some of the existing
uh screen hedging is cleared out of its invasive uh vines and things like that, we may move some things around to get better um screening. That that's just sort of general practice with with found uh screen planting versus foundation. Yeah, that that app makes absolute
sense. That's what we Okay, great. Thanks. Okay, great. So given that, is there a motion? Um, I'll move approval with the amendment we discussed. Great. Thanks. Is there a second?
I'll second. Oh, thanks, Pauly. Okay. All in favor, please say I. I. I. Opposed. Motion carried. All right. Thank you so much for coming in. This was very
helpful. Very, very helpful. Thank you very much. Thanks. [Music] All right. So, I guess we'll move on to 900 Herontown. Um Dan, did you want to talk about your memo?
Yeah. So, so basically um let me I can show you but or I can just read it. Uh there there was a condition in the approval for 900 um herring town that indicated that the I'll read it verbatim. It was on page 17 condition N.
The applicant shall work with the landscapecape scubs committee, excuse me, in the planting of a buffer along the property's southern boundary with old orchard lane development and shall plant more evergreens within the buffer with trees of at least six to seven feet
at the time of planting. Prior to issuance of certificate of occupancy, the landscape subcommittee shall conduct a site inspection to evaluate if additional buffer landscaping is required. So, um, they're I guess they're asking for occupancy or
certificate of occupancy. They may have some type of occupancy already started. Um, and if you recall, this is at the corner of uh Hearntown Road. Uh, is it Herntown on both sides? Hermantown and Mount Lucas. Yes, thank you. Yes, hertown and Mount
Lucas. And if uh way back it was, I think an office building was approved and now it's affordable housing project. It was also subject of litigation with the neighbors and I remember specifically that there was some discussion of planting on the neighbors
property to u make the buffer more effective because there was concern whether there was enough space on the subject property. And so that's my big question is whether I mean I know the litigation was resolved in our favor,
but is there anyone at Old Orchard who we can talk to about whether they would like to have some buffer planting on their side of the property line? Um because that seems important, right? So my recollection is that when it was the office building, that
definitely was the case. We actually had a plan to plant on their side of the property. Uh with the now the project as it is now, the landscape plan does not show any planting on that side of the property on offsite basically. It does show a fence which they've installed. So
there's a wood fence and they did um they they have a very good landscape plan. Now the problem is the implementation of that landscape is extremely poor. Um, and so that's why I really didn't I was I went they the um I
forget who Justin or Ian asked me to go out and look at it and I was going out there thinking I would look at it and say, "Oh, the planting is looking pretty good. Maybe add a tree or two." And when I got out there, I looked at it and said, "Well, uh, a number of the buffer
trees are dead andor missing." Uh, they didn't really follow the plan very well. And across the site there's a lot of dead and declining landscape plants all over the place. And the um I think Jim had um Taylor go out and look at it and
he had similar findings and I didn't want to get into the detail of reviewing every plant on the site because I didn't want to raise up fees on affordable housing project. So I just looked at the buffer said this isn't right. And then I got back to Ian and Justin and said this
is there's a problem here. Um, and that I don't even think it's worth the time of the landscape subcommittee going out to look at it because it's unacceptable as it is. So, that's kind of where we're at. Um, the question really came down to is
there pressure on them to get a CEO for some type of funding or Yes. stuff and how do we deal with that? Because the timeline for landscape is not good. I if they with this contractor, they're going to have difficulty getting this done quickly.
But I I also know that there are warranty provisions, you know, for years after occupancy to replace dead plants. So it seems Yeah, that's that is definitely the case under law for buffers, but they recently
changed the law so that it does not necessarily cover everything else. So, really? Yes. I don't know if Jim if you know if they're bonded for everything or just the buffer. Um, no, they're bonded just for the buffer and the municipal uh
improvements, the the walkway that was constructed. Um, actually, no, I I should say the maintenance guarantee, the the bond itself um is actually based on 100% of the improvements. I forgot that. But it's
only 15% of um the cost of the of all the improvements. Um but I think you're right, Dan, that legally we can only compel them to uh fix the landscape buffer and the municipal improvements.
Um I I will say though that the developer/manager has been very cooperative. uh actually unfortunately has already replanted all of the dead trees that were identified by Taylor and Taylor went out with their landscaper,
flagged the trees that needed to be removed and replaced. They've been removed and replaced. Um they did have a deadline of yesterday. Um so uh it's my understanding a CO has been issued. Um
the maintenance bond uh will be in our hands. um soon. And uh I just sent a memo to this subcommittee through Justin. I don't know if he's had a chance to distribute it. It was half an hour ago or 25 45
minutes ago. Um that my recommendation is that uh you know, we work with them through with the maintenance bond. the maintenance bond won't get released until the landscaping uh is satisfactory to everybody um in in over the next two
years. Um they were sweating it out to get that CO yesterday because of the expiration of certain obligations. So it sounds like Why am I on twice? Who Who's logged in
as me? You heard in your choice. I Somebody's got my name. Not me. Not me. It's interesting. Um, it sounds to me like the best way to
handle this would be to, you know, get them to do what we can uh, under the performance bond and then
either have this group go out just to address that con condition of approval and sort of check the box, but realize that we don't have a lot of um leverage even if we do go but I wouldn't do it be
you know before the work has been done that we're able to get them to do no and and we literally told them not you know to wait until next month to replant right and uh he came in two days later and
said I've already replanted everything well we'll see if they survive the winter. I mean, that might Well, I mean, this is a really good time to plant trees and shrubs. Um, if you take care of them, and that's been their
issue. I mean, it that that Well, two weeks ago, it wasn't the greatest time in the world to plant. It was It was in the upper 80s and dry and Oh, yeah. It was three weeks ago was right. Okay. This was this I mean now that the month of
October is probably going to be nice but we're still facing 80 degrees and zero rain. So, um, and in my C, sorry, Jim, in my I mean, you you've got my memo. Um, that was my recommendation that we just work
with them and, um, make sure as 100 and as Dan said, as 100% affordable, um, we felt compelled to assist them in getting their CO um, and and getting out from underneath their um, their financial
obligations that were expiring. And I totally appreciate that. Thank you for helping. I I do too. And and um I do think that you know between Dan and Taylor
um if we can just be really attentive and work with them to make sure their contractors doing it right because they obviously you know even if they planted at an inopportune time they also didn't take
care of what you I mean I whatever they messed it up and this company RPM you know They have an excellent reputation for for good projects. So, I don't think they I think they probably
care, but their their contractor just uh blew it. So, if we can just ride, you know, ride them and help them however we can within reason, that would be it. Seems in my conversations with Taylor,
the arborist, um it seems like this most recent replanting wasn't, you know, wasn't set up to fail necessarily. It was just done sloppily,
you know, not what he would expect you physically for it to look like. Um, and I think that just comes from them trying to turn it around in two days so then they could get the CEO 4 days later or whatever the timeline was. Um, so I think with this approach by actually
giving them more time, uh, you know, if they're not doing it in a hasty way, um, like you said, Louise, they're a good company and they'll get it sorted out, um, by the time that they they want that maintenance bond back.
Yeah. And one concern I have is that their their subcontractor, you know, was ever doing the landscaping, if they did it sloppily, you know, they they could have left the burlap around the bag, you know, they could have left the roots going like this. And so the the tree
will live more than two years, but it'll it'll never thrive, you know. And that's the kind of thing I just want to make sure we really try to protect against is sloppy as much as completely incompetent.
So, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Sure. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Jim, would it make sense to kind of revisit this maybe in the early spring and see how it looks? I I I completely agree with that
approach. Yeah. and then we could have the landscape subcommittee look at it at that point and offer input. Yeah. Um but I will remind you the biggest thing about this the the condition was whether or not the buffer is sufficient right that was that was
what and I don't know whether or not anybody can even say that until um whatever's been planted actually grows. you know, you got a bunch of trees that are lining up next to this fence that um is is that a sufficient buffer? You
don't know until it's over. And Dan, I don't know. Um I happen to drive down um old orchard uh day before yesterday. Um I did notice some new trees on that side of the fence. Um
I think they're really old. The remnant maybe I haven't I mean I haven't been there in like a week or so but but the there are some things that were planted a while ago that are but there the the plan that went with the office building had a robust planting on the old orchard side. Yeah,
I know it wasn't robust, but I did see what looked like new trees planted, but and maybe that was the old orchard homeowners association that planted trees, but All right. So, it sounds like we're going to wait till spring
and revisit this. Yeah, the maintenance bond is how long, Jeff? Two years. Two years from today. uh from the yeah from the issuance of well two years from
hold on release for a period of two years one from execution of the maintenance agreement and it hasn't been executed. It was just sent to them yesterday. Okay. Just want to make sure we're not
six months in or something like that. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, does it require any action on our part or No? No. We just wanted to keep you uh in the loop on this one. Um because this looked
like it was going to be like Dan said, a simple one where then we sign off and they move on after six years of approvals. Um but obviously it's not. It's not going to be that. Is that site um
open now? I mean, could I park and walk around? Okay. because I I've I drive by there pretty frequently and you know so I've I've been curious about actually stopping in and walking around
and uh yeah I believe they already have tenants. Okay, good. Great. David, did you have a comment? No, I was just uh I was looking for the chat so I could me message that I need to jump off. Oh,
okay. Yeah, you got to go to that that retirement party, right? Well, actually, I got the day wrong for that, but I have something else that I I'm taking new my a new photo for the municipal website, and I have to go make myself pretty.
All right, so Justin, that won't take long. David Bless you, Louise, why do you need a new photo? I think your photo is great. I see it every day. I do, too. But they they want to make us look all the
same. Oh, okay. Uh, no, Julie, we don't have anything else today. Um, I just set myself a reminder for April 1 to uh revisit this. Um, so we will uh uh you know, make
plans in April, May, or maybe even June um to to follow up on this. Can Can I suggest March 1? That way there's to plant before summer. Yeah, certainly. Thanks, Dan.
Sounds good. We better let David go. Okay. Wouldn't want to get in. He's gone. In the way of He's gone already. He was not waiting for our approval. All right. Well,
motion to adjurnn. So moved. Okay. Or second if that if you were making I All right. Thanks everybody. Bye. Thanks all. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye.