adequate notice oops it's okay i'm sorry okay pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the resolution of
regularly scheduled meetings of the planning board of princeton for february 2025 through january 2026 a copy was filed with the clerk of princeton on january 8th 2025 legal notice on the adoption of said resolution was
published in the january 17 2025 edition of the princeton packet notice of this meeting also has been posted to the municipal website princetonj.gov/calendar notice that all regular and special meetings of the princeton planning board board will be held electronically via
zoom was transmitted to the princeton packet and the times and was filed with the clerk of princeton on tuesday january 17 2023 please note that this meeting is being recorded during hearings on applications for development members of the public
will have an opportunity to comment and ask questions public comment is heard by the board after an applicant's representatives have finished their presentations that have been questioned by planning board members and staff those wishing to comment orally when the
time comes should virtually raise your hand by clicking on the reactions or raise hand icon at the bottom of your zoom screen or if participating by phone by pressing star9 oral comments will be taken in the order in which hands were
raised we ask with respect that members of the public express your views in three minutes or less countdown clock on your screen will help speakers keep track of time please note that speakers who exceed 3 minutes will be interrupted inappropriate public comment
containing obscenity hate speech or relating to matters not before the board will be muted miss phillip will you call the role please nat you're muted i am here thank you miss capazolei
here mr cohen here mayor freda here mr mcgawan here miss na mr o'donnell here miss pearl mutter mr taylor here miss wilson
anderson here mrs wilson here we have a quorum thank you um announcements any announcements from staff or board members mr leco yes thank you madam chair and good evening members of the board and members of the public um i
wanted to give an announcement that at the board's next meeting on the 17th uh you'll be hearing uh or holding hearing i should say about the environmental resource inventory um it's a a document that we'll be discussing uh to
potentially adopt as an appendix of the master plan uh and it was last updated in 2010 i don't know if it was ever adopted into the master plan from then uh but it certainly was created at that point um and it is a recommendation of the current plans conservation open
space and recreation element to adopt uh a new environmental resource inventory and include you as part of the master plan um the key word here is inventory with this document uh the erri provides information to identify uh environmental
resources and you know allow decision makers to make decisions on them it does not necessarily create policy uh because that's already been done in the master plans elements um so we'll send it out tomorrow to give you more time to review the document than usual but again going
back to it being an inventory uh it's about 171 pages but many of them are uh you know four pages of charts on the soil types in princeton um things of that nature uh more so than than any sort of policy or recommendations or
things like that uh at the meeting on the 17th clark hints will uh be here to present the document so don't worry if you don't get a chance to read the whole thing or or you need a little guidance during it they will present it um as as
usual or as we do with the master plan and there's a familiarity with clark hints obviously um and you'll see the design of the document is very similar to the master plan uh but otherwise it our engineering department and open space manager really worked with uh them
on this so just want to give a heads up on that and that'll be the reason why we send out uh the agenda and this document tomorrow instead of next friday like we normally would okay so there's nothing else on the agenda
i don't believe so okay all right um good there might i'm sorry madam chair there might be minutes uh and things like that but uh no applications okay all right great so probably be a good idea to resend the agenda a week
from tomorrow as people are accustomed to getting it you know the friday before meetings but both times is fine of course yep and madam chair just so you know i am going on vacation so i will not be doing that next week all right
enjoy your time off thank you we'll make sure the board gets it though madam chair okay great um thanks any other announcements i just want to announce it's great to be back great to see
everybody um uh subcommittee reports we have a report from landscape committee right so we had a landscape committee on april 1st uh reviewing um
7074 witherspoon street um cr x associates i think it's called and um we do i have to get into what we
discussed or just say that we resolved everything and recommended to move forward i think it makes sense this is by the way the momo building um right near the corner of
um paul robson place in witherspoon um and since we did give a lot of uh attention to the street tree issues street trees were recommended by the
shade tree committee after our board meeting so the board did not see their full their report um but they recommended trees and we ultimately street trees i mean we
ultimately decided not to require street trees the um i don't mean to steal your your thunder julie no it's all right i mean i i definitely think we we did consider that issue for a long time and felt that
the space was too narrow and too compromised as well as the evergreen buffer that was recommended between the site and the small arklet that was also
um considered but ultimately we decided that would not be beneficial to either the municipality or the applicant so we decided not to require that
um i think those were the two major deviations from the recommendations we did go over plant lists and intentions for the planters and other greenery on the site um but as i recall those two
were the main issues also at the dumpster and recycling uh because it's a wall um it wasn't really appropriate to put landscaping in front of that
um so we did not uh recommend that as well right and that driveway going back to the dumpster is not used for parking at all um and i just want to note that the the sidewalk on witherspoon in front of this
building is particularly narrow compared with everywhere else along witherspoon between paul robson place and nassau street and um and the the applicant as the board may recall envisioned and plans for
outdoor dining and there just was not room for those trees so i don't mean to belabor the point but it was it was not you know not a slam dunk of a call but we did talk about it for quite some time and in terms of that evergreen screen uh separating the u the project from the
parklet uh and the decision as julie said was that we would not go forward with it didn't think it was a good idea but wasn't part of the condition related to that that there'd be interaction between the developer a and the municipal officials as to possible
improvements to the park itself with some yes especially that embankment between um where the big tree is it's a big u london plane tree and the driveway back to the um to the dumpster area which um the
applicant may use at some point for public gatherings the same way that the arts center uses its driveway for public gatherings occasionally so yeah it just seemed like separating with the screen was not a good thing to
do but that improving that embankment and making sure that it was tidy and attractive was in everybody's interest and the applicant readily agreed to that and the and the committee agreed with the proposal for the front for the front facade uh of of the building and the
plantings uh uh on it there'd be kind of a living wall a living facade right and there's a green roof as well yes right all right thanks julie i talked 10 times deeper than you did but
clear that up okay um no other committee reports correct yeah uh so on to minutes we have uh minutes from a special meeting held
on april 11th of last year um are there any questions or suggested edits and if not would someone like to move those minutes i'll move them julie capolei moved by julie capazolei seconded
by mr co and i saw your hand first um i call the role please uh miss phillip i don't know if it's necessary for the minutes ah okay i've been away too long call the role for the resolutions but not the minutes all in favor please say
i i any opposed or abstaining no abstaining i know sorry um great on to resolutions um we have pip commercial llc this was a
major site plan um at 4042 north lane file number p2424-511p any comments or suggestions related to this resolution and if not would someone like to move
it moved by mr cohen seconded by mr o'donnell thank you um call the role please miss phillip uh miss capazolei yes mr cohen yes mr mcgowan yes mr o'donnell yes
mrs wilson yes motion carried um next resolution is um for rb homes builders llc this was a minor site plan with variance um at 14 north harrison street file number
p2424-521p m any questions or suggestions and if not would someone like to move this moved by mr cohen seconded
by no mr mcgawan thank you um call the role please miss phillip uh d david you were definitely there for the uh meeting okay i'm sorry i don't know how i missed that
i'm sorry um i remember it well okay did i miss anyone else julie were you in attendance i am not remembering this one too well okay good okay and i don't have nat down either nat 14 north harrison i'm so
sorry thought i took it from the minutes okay um i'm just going to read from what i have in front of me mr cohen yes mr mcgowan yes
mr taylor yes miss wilson anderson yes mrs wilson yes motion carried thank you thank um i believe the next item on the agenda the concept plan is
being held or carried or otherwise not heard tonight is that correct mr leco that's correct madam chair um it will be tabled to a future meeting at the request of the applicant uh and there will be new noticing at the time um either way there's no need to take
jurisdiction for a concept review so uh just if any members of the public are here to hear the concept review on mount lucas uh that will not happen tonight um you're you're more than welcome to stay to hear about some signage at the shopping center um but just be aware that that other application will not
occur tonight the other concept plan excuse me will not occur tonight okay good thank you um so we will hear an application from princeton edens a continued application from princeton edens llc this is
preliminary and final major site plan with variances at 301 north harrison street file number p2424-506p um i see you mr
letisia um i would ask uh mr leco and yes the applicants um uh witnesses you can turn on your cameras now and uh when the time comes we'll swear everybody in at once um but
i would like for mr leco and mr weissman to um to talk a little bit before we start hearing from the applicant justin yep thank you madam chair and uh jerry i don't think i need to be sworn in again
no this is a continuation you do not yep thank you um so as has been stated a couple times now this is a continuation of the application you first heard uh for signage at the princeton shopping center in early november um note that mayor freda and mr taylor have certified
in writing that they watched the video from then so they will be able to participate and vote um because this is a continuation from november and you all know where the shopping center is i'm going to do my introduction a little differently than usual and focus more on
the content than on the location um in november eden's the owner of the shopping center asked or requested variances to allow for three types of signs uh the first type were facade signs for individual businesses the second were for three freestanding
directory signs and the third was for one shopping center and retailer identification sign u there were additional variances that i'll get into later but these are the three general types of signs that were proposed uh at that november meeting the application
was bifurcated and the board approved the facade signs for individual businesses so we won't be talking about those tonight um the board had questions about the other signs and requested more information in the resolution of approval uh which allowed the facade signs this was uh summarized in our
joint staff memo from march 31st and and that's what i'll summarize a bit here um i apologize to the board that our staff memo was finalized only earlier this week uh but we only received the revised application materials last week um so the proposal tonight is for the three
freestanding directory signs the one shopping center and retailer identification sign and a newly proposed electrical transformer that you didn't see last time um getting into the signs first i'd like to share my screen uh to
show the applicants um it's sheet detail sheet co5 from the applicant submitted site plan uh jerry do we need to make this a exhibit if it's from their site plan no no okay thanks um i'll zoom in
in a minute but i i think seeing all four of these right now will be helpful um the shopping center and retailer identification sign is in the upper left uh the other three are the directory signs um you can see the two directory signs to the right are identical in size
the third directory sign is larger uh and this is the one that would be located near the shopping center uh entrance at valley road near mcaffries uh the other two would be near the walgreens and near where the new road to tune is uh proposed on the other side of
mcaffries um you'll probably justin i'm sorry to interrupt but the the lower left signage is visible to the incoming vehicles uh coming off of uh or crossing harrison or coming off of harrison is that the one
you mean that's correct yep so when you make that turn in uh directly between you and mcaffrey as the driver okay um so uh the you'll notice the design of the directory signs has changed since
the last meeting um one notable way and i'll zoom in now it's going to be a little blurry for a second and then it should uh clear up um one notable way is that they now include messaging on the rear of the sign uh with a a thank you for visiting message alongside the logos of the
shopping center and edens um this will require additional variances so now uh related to the directory signs we're looking at variances for sign area of about 30 square ft where 8 square ft is allowed uh for the smaller ones and 48
square ft where eight is allowed for the larger one and that variance would be for both sides now uh there are also variances requested for the max height of 5t on the smaller ones as they're about 5'9 in height um and let's stay on
these directory signs for a second um what our ordinance currently currently allows is four freestanding directory signs in the sc zoning district that the shopping center is in and those are required to be located within the courtyard or a passageway leading there
too uh this i believe refers to the uh the freestanding signs with maps of the stores um in places like uh near the new starbucks or by the arch that leads to lily pies uh kind of like what you see in a mall you know
um this zoning requirement for directory signs is crafted to direct people on foot around the shopping center you know you're not going to see that sign from your car and and know where pizza star is it's you're going to have to walk up and and look for it um so after hearing
the applicant's testimony the board should consider if the uh if the applicant meets the variance proofs to allow these larger more audio autooriented signs or if the board finds that they do not if this is a more appropriate question for council to
decide by changing the uh requirements of the sc zone um additionally the board requested more information about the exact location and orientation of these signs uh as well as some changes to the locations in the graphics uh particip
particularly which way the arrows were pointing if you remember the last meeting um as well as more information on the size of the letters and their visibility based on traffic conditions uh and the applicant should have their experts speak to these items and i expect that they will moving on to the
uh shopping center and retailer identification sign uh the larger one um this sign is pretty similar to what you saw in november uh and it's proposed to be near where nomad pizza is that green
area i'll show in a second um it remains that this type of sign is not contemplated in our signage ordinance uh and it requires a variance to allow the sign in general um our ordinance allows for one shopping center identification sign of up to 64 feet in area with a
maximum height of 6 feet and it would have to be set back 5t uh this sign is located at the the valley road entrance that we were just talking about to the shopping center where it says princeton shopping center um there is also an identification sign near the walgreens
uh that has uh since been installed with the logo of the shopping center in the avalon apartments uh back from when the board uh reviewed and approved those avalon apartments uh a couple years ago uh additionally a variance would be required for internal illumination of
this sign uh which i should note is double-sided uh the board had questions in november about the size of the letters as well as the graphics uh as it did with the other signs uh but particular to this one uh the board had questions about what the sign will look like at night with that illumination and
uh where exactly the sign will be and what effect that will have on trees in the area proposed uh the applicant has since confirmed that those that two trees would need to be relocated going back to the signs illumination staff was not provided enough
information to determine if it exceeds the maximum permitted light intensity and light trespass uh allowed by our ordinance the applicant shall provide that testimony as well as testimony to determine if an additional variance would and could be granted related to that uh illumination and the trespass
and uh intensity illumination so uh carrie never mind um i would also ask the board to consider after the applicant's testimony uh if it is necessary to have three individual
identification signs on north harrison this proposed one if it was approved uh as well as the existing two to identify where the shopping center is and lastly um a new transformer is proposed which you can see on sheet
co3 uh and i will zoom out a little uh this is the uh existing conditions and the proposed conditions um and this is the transformer layout plan of the applicant site plan uh the transformer is proposed where this t is in that green area uh green grass area uh right
by where the identification sign is proposed and nomad pizza would be off the screen here a little bit um the existing transformer or my lights just turned out um there is an existing uh i got to start moving um there is an
existing transformer located to the north of this proposed location uh on a concrete pad in a parking medium and that would be median and that would be uh removed if this was approved to go in this location uh a variance is would be required as this is proposed to be
within the 50ft required setback from a adjacent residential zones uh as it's 29 ft setback um the applicant should testify why this location is needed though in preliminary conversations with the applicant's professionals it seems that this location is a fair one based
on pseng's requirements as well as uh the needs of the shopping center in you know the 2020s for a 1950s built building u the board may however wish to discuss uh screening though around uh there are 14 ballards surrounding the
transformer so uh you may want to discuss that uh and the only other comment that we had in our memo uh was whether it was appropriate or not to have a thank you for visiting message uh on the one directory sign near the walgreens or if that would cause
confusion with the do not enter sign there because if you remember uh that's a just one way in uh and you you cannot enter to go out uh madam chair i would like to hand it to mr weissman to see if he has anything to add um otherwise i'm here for questions and i look forward to
the applicant's testimony okay thank you dan weissman good evening madam chair and everybody uh thank you um just a one point of clarification mr leco uh had
pointed out that the sign area for each of the directory signs um the values are correct the two smaller directory signs are 30 approximately 30 square feet and the larger one is 48 square f feet that
only entails the front face of the sign um the signage on the rear as it does not mirror the same signage is considered a separate sign so separate variance relief is required for each of those three uh signs on the rear of
those d1 d2 and d3 signs um regarding uh justin uh had uh touched on the potential variance relief for light trespass and light intensity uh
section t10b-317 uh regards light intensity at a lot line which is limited at 50 foot lamberts um and section t10b-317.1e uh is regarding light trespass at a lot line and is limited within the shopping
center at 0.7 foot candles um again the applicant has provided some information regarding the foot candles and lumens at the sign however there's not sufficient information to determine uh what those values are at the lot line adjacent to
the sign so the applicant uh we had discussed it was with the applicant uh i understand they had worked on this uh between uh when they provided the additional information for the hearing um so we're just asking the applicant to provide some additional testimony um to
justify if variance relief is required um the applicant is also asked to provide expert testimony on the size of the letters that are proposed within each of the signs um and how their visibility uh what the visibility is based on traffic conditions within the
shopping center and along north harrison street okay yeah thank you for that um yeah there were a number of things in the in the memo that were sort of red flags for me so i do hope that the applicant
addresses uh all of those um uh matters that were raised in the in the staff comments and the planning comments um also uh in addition to the letter size which hasn't been talked about yet uh i would
like to understand from the applicant why it's necessary to relocate two trees when they seem to be a distance away from where the transformer is and i realize that might relate to digging or
something but i i want to understand why [Music] um anything from um from you mr bridger no i think they've covered everything thank you madam chair
uh mr letsia welcome back hello uh for the record tom latizia attorney representing princeton edens llc owner of the princeton
shopping center jerry you may have said this but uh perhaps i missed it um we did provide notice of this uh hearing to all oh i'm sorry i did not turn to him to ask that that's that's my bad provided the necessary affidavit so i
believe the board does have jurisdiction to uh thank you tom yes everything's in order great thank you both thank you um uh madame chair i have a a request uh one of our witnesses
is delayed uh he's he is our uh planner uh his testimony obviously is important because as noted by your staff there's a number of variances that are being sought with this signage so i'm asking if the board would be willing to recess
for about 10 minutes or so uh to allow my planner uh to to join this uh virtual uh meeting so m you get an early recess uh if so i we we were expecting
you were going to uh hear the concept so we thought we were going to be a little bit later yeah so but i know things change it's that's our problem not yours but yeah um there there are no other witnesses
that you want to um no i have other witnesses but but you know i like to do this the right way and that is our our expert our planner should hear all the testimony from our witnesses okay yeah sure that's why i'm asking for the uh for the short
recess okay um we will take 10 minutes and if they're um not here at that time we we will um continue to another day
understood okay thank you yes um thank you miss phillip uh mr letsia go right ahead okay uh thank you madam chair and again um apologies uh for the delay
uh both justin and dan gave a very thorough uh background uh for for the board and i do not plan to uh repeat any of that
information uh you are all familiar with the princeton shopping center it has gone through some uh recent upgrades in terms of building uh facade upgrades and um new tenant
signage which uh this board approved back in uh in the fall of last year uh i think you will agree that it's it's looking uh very uh attractive so this is i would call chapter two of
the uh application that was filed for uh new signage so tonight is the focus is on site or freestanding uh signage and there are essentially two types
there are three directory signs uh being proposed and then there is a new uh site id monument sign to be uh located out on north harrison street so that's the
signage and then as as was noted uh by uh by justin uh there is now a proposed new transformer out near uh the road uh and because of its location within a a
setback it does require a variance and therefore it's part of this it's been made part of this uh application normally we we wouldn't have to go to the planning board for the placement of a of a transformer uh so we're going to focus
again on the freestanding signage and the transformer and as was noted there was requests for additional information from the board uh back in november um related to this uh this signage and uh we apologize for the the
long uh period of time but we we wanted to get it right we wanted to pull together all the uh information that was being requested and then also uh bring in some experts to address the questions that were uh
raised particularly with respect to uh lighting uh because the id sign will be internally uh illuminated as well as the uh the size of letters and the visibility of those letters uh from uh customers who are uh
arriving uh to the center um in terms of the variances i think the uh justin and dan have have summarized them uh with respect to the directory
signs it relates to their size and their height at least for two of them the the one directory sign uh does comply with the height requirement for a directory sign uh but it does need a um a area uh
variance and then there was um this discussion about a what what qualifies as a as a separate sign is on the back side of these directory signs uh ens has uh decided to put a thank you message uh
to its customers that are leaving uh the shopping center and since um that is different than the information on the uh the opposite side of the sign per your ordinance that's considered a separate
sign and because there are no regulations related to that type of sign we need a variance for those uh for that side of the director sign i know i'm getting into the weeds but that is uh
the result of uh of this proposal and then um the uh the last sign has to do with this identification sign monument sign um that uh variance again relates to the
type of sign and um this the square footage of the sign is proposed to be 99 square ft there was a uh a reference in the staff report to a different size basically a double
187 square foot sign uh that was based on an assumption by your staff that uh the the letters or the the messages would be different uh because this is a two-sided sign so there would be um
again if the messages are different from one side to the other it's considered a double sign or a separate sign but as we will explain in our testimony the information on this uh id sign will be the same on both sides so it's treated
as a single sign and that means it's just the area of one side and again the variance we'll be seeking is for 99 uh square ft not 187 square ft i wanted to i want to make that clarification uh so we have had a chance
to review the memorandum we we will address the comments um in our in our testimony and then with that i'm going to turn it over to our um our witnesses and uh jerry do we want
to swear them in all at once i think that's how you do it these days right okay so uh we have ryan leing good evening all right we have larry glzi
uh glenn fastman and john mcdana so if you could all put on your uh if you can raise your right hand and raise your right hand do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth yes i do i do affirm if you
can kind of go around in some fashion and state your full name and spell your last name uh ryan leing l e m i n g glenn fastman fan
thank you uh larry please larry you you are on uh mute lumark there you go okay go ahead larry hi larry gleazi l a r r y g l i o
zi g l i o zi correct thank you and mr mcdana don mcdana can you spell your last name john please
my name is spelled mc capital d o n o u g h thank you so my first witness is mr ryan leing now ryan you testified uh previous hearing on this application
um and uh can you just remind um the boards because we do have some new board members here uh what is your uh position please sure um ryan leeing with edens i'm the vice president of development for edens and the princeton shopping
center is in your uh portfolio that you have responsibility for is that correct that's correct so uh you're very familiar with the shopping center as well as the uh this proposed signage uh plan is that correct correct okay so why
don't you um provide the board uh with um the thinking uh behind this uh new site signage and uh i believe uh the chair also had a couple
questions about relocation of trees that perhaps you can uh address and also explain uh the location of the uh new transformer please okay and i think we have some exhibits so uh feel free to
pull up pull up those they come up they do i see them so let's identify this first yep this is page c-01 um which was included in our site
plans this is prepared by bowler engineering and again jerry i don't know if we need to mark this but uh it's up i think it's up to you okay so uh thank you madam chair members of the board for having us again um i'll
try to be brief um try to get to questions uh as soon as we can here just a quick reminder for those um from the last meeting and then members um this application chapter 2 as tom
defined it is i would say the final piece um of our redevelopment project in princeton shopping center which uh with exception of this signage here has been fully completed
uh so when we started this project we started to think about signage the board was gracious enough to approve all the facade signs to finish the facade renovation project last year but one
thing that we've always thought about and we hear from our retail partners we hear from new customers um as silly as it may be um the center could use a little bit of help in letting people know how to get around and where businesses might be located
and so that led us to this application um as tom said we are proposing a new identification sign along north harrison which is here near nomad pizza and then we have the three directory
signs one here d1 behind walgreens at the first entrance off north harrison d2 sign at the entrance of valley road in the d3 sign here which originally we had thought this would be
a great sign in a different orientation uh to help people as they come around this corner and continue along the macaffry parking lot to let folks know whom is on the grover park side of the center based upon some comment and rethinking about this sign we're holding
this sign uh now to speak in in concept to the way the other two signs do and they are directly related to entering traffic to the shopping center um so we know there's there's been some applications
in town that showed this new road if if it ever does come uh we will be able to address that new entering traffic with a with a wayfinding sign so that is the revised thinking for the the d3 sign
in addition to all of this the new piece um and why we wanted to spend a little bit more time getting our materials together thank you for the continuence's patience is in working on a piece of scope at the shopping center and upgrading the electrical equipment um
the electrical equipment in these two front buildings buildings e and f this is building f directly behind nomad pizza starbucks on the end cap here pastamo on the other end cap here this also houses orvis in building f which has maspa
bella boutique lily pies and some new retailers that are coming the electrical equipment in these buildings is original to the shopping center and in order to keep up with our leasing activity at the shopping center we will be upgrading and replacing that
that power system entirely uh so we've been coordinating with pscg and some new information that they gave us earlier this year is in working with them they would need to bring a new transformer so we're proposing that new transformer
here in this grassy area and the preference from working with pseng was the main power for the current transformer which is not on this plan but we have it on other plans which we can show is actually located here
today the power comes into this power pole here and the the recommendation was keep it as close to the original equipment as possible uh we felt like this grassy area was was wide open it was out of the way uh so this is where we've landed it or where we're showing
it landed today why wouldn't the new transformer why couldn't it go in the same location as the old one um this new transformer is actually larger uh slightly larger than the existing the existing transformer is much older this newer one
is um has more stuff inside of it it's more up to date it also sits on a slightly larger concrete base uh and it would not fit in this landscape island here it's just slightly too large so the princeton shopping center
you're all very aware of it it's been around for a long time it has a lot of retailers um now that our project is finished we think the site signage is a great finishing touch to help people navigate around the site um especially you know
this entrance here as you come in now with the introduction of the avalon building this building is now up people are now living in there um again as silly as it may be we've all seen this plan many many times a lot of people don't realize that this road connects to
the grover park side and so we felt like this sign is warranted in a way to make people aware if you're heading to these retailers please take a right here um a lot of folks feel that just by how this looks if you're new to the princeton
shopping center that this road only serve as avalon which is not true this d2 sign here coming into valley road again as we spoke about at our last um hearing people come in especially if you're new to the shopping
center and i feel like most folks will gravitate to the front parking lot and we oftentimes hear that it's really tough to find a parking space sometimes when the shopping center is busy and so we think this sign will help navigate
and circulate folks looking for ace hardware looking for conquer pet metropolis blue bears some of the other retailers on the grover park side will help them take that left and know that they can get back here and there's a lot
of ample parking always on the grover park side of the center this one as i said we're holding for now um to relate to any entrance traffic off of chim again as someone would come in there's a decision point the sign would
help direct them to the retailer that they want to visit the last piece of the signage the id sign here the princeton shopping center is large piece of property in princeton it
has a lot of frontage along north harrison it currently has a previously approved sign here the walgreens entrance which is brand new it's been installed and currently has an existing monument sign here at the valley road entrance
and now why this while this entrance here is you know a right in right out only doesn't really serve as much of a i would say as a main entrance as maybe this entrance here is the first entrance as you're coming from downtown or this entrance here as it's out of light
um it's a great midpoint for the frontage along north harrison to introduce a sign to make people aware of the princeton shopping center in whichever direction they're traveling it's also a great opportunity to introduce some of our retailer partner
names um again helping people with awareness how to get around the site letting folks know whom is here if they're new to princeton new to princeton shopping center they're looking for mcaffries macaffry's name would be proposed on this sign so just providing
that awareness that they've arrived at the princeton shopping center helping break up that frontage a little bit more um feeling like a bit a bit of an amenity to the frontage and the curb appeal along north harrison or there was a question about relocation
of trees can you address that i would love to and like justin my lights went off too um so this plan here this is c 03 from our site plan set prepared by bowler um
these are some zoom in blow up detailed versions of the existing condition you can see that existing transformer and you can see the new transformer and you can see the new sign proposed here within the setback and
when we studied this you know without the transformer our last application we didn't have the transformer so we had a little bit more room in this area with the transformer we've shifted the sign location a little bit and it's in between these two existing smaller trees
here and so just to avoid any conflict any damaging of the tree during any digging anything like that we felt like relocating this tree over here you can see it here in line with the existing tree line along north harrison and then
relocating this tree slightly planned north to be in the landscape island um there is an existing tree up in this zone here i believe um so we felt like that complemented that a little bit and it's an ability to save those
trees we do show on the plan we show relocated or replaced obviously we we're welcome feedback from the board um but it would be our intent to save those trees maintain those trees so the reason for relocating the trees is really to provide better visibility
for the sign is that correct um yes visibility was one thought um but also you know any potential harm to the tree by installation of the sign or any conflict with roots or anything like that that may exist uh but if you can
see this sign here you know it would be you know right in here felt a little bit crowded in there with trees a little bit of a conflict can you testify to the size of those trees you said they were small how how
big or small are they um i believe they're i think they're a 3-in caliper last time i checked they were much smaller than for example this tree is a very large mature uh much older tree i believe these are
like 3-in very sort of smaller 3-in caliber we can confirm that we'll absolutely confirm that uh but they're much smaller um these are not as mature as a lot of the existing trees along north harrison
ryan maybe you can now turn to the design of the signs that we're proposing and talk a little bit yep about the design um so i have the individual sheets here these were all included um as part of
our uh these were all included i don't know if i have the sheet here but i have the sheet um these four sign drawings were all included uh i believe it's c-04 of our site plans we showed them
all on one page but these are just the individual pages that i can reference so this is um sign id1 this would be the main shopping center identification sign near nomad pizza um this would have
shopping center identification on it on the base it is an 18inch stone base um if you've seen the new princeton shopping center avalon sign it is exactly the same height and size of that
sign uh the stone base mimics the same stone base the spacing between the cap and the panel all all unique and identical and it's that was done on purpose um we really wanted to follow in
the same family of that sign and keep a consistent size materiality color the panel or the the box here that is going to be created um right now we
show it with 16 retailer panels um we felt that at the size of this sign keeping it under the six foot height requirement um we felt like a 4-in
letter was an appropriate size to maintain visibility legibility but also sort of be as small as it can be and not be overwhelming overpowering distracting
this panel here this top piece would be internally illuminated the proposal is that only the letters of the tenant names would have that internal illumination shining through for example
the princeton shopping center name would be halo illumination or indirect illumination as all of the shopping center signs are today so that would remain in constant with those signs the the key difference is that these would
be internally illuminated and the main reason for that is in going with the 4 inch letter height um those letters would just be too small to be able to reverse illuminate through halo and so we went with what we thought was the
next best thing um which was internal illumination one thing i'll hit on and and we have the team from lumark here larry's here they can certainly speak in more detail about it last time at our hearing there was a question about materiality or any
any sort of new technology or anything new that we were doing and interestingly enough the team at lumark made us aware of a product which is called day night acrylic
and what that is is it's an acrylic that is tinted and so during the day the sign would look as you see it on on your page we have some we can go to as well um the letters would read black and even though
those letters are solid black at night they would shine white so light would penetrate through that black acrylic and they would illuminate white to be red um at night and the black acrylic help filters that light it controls that
light glenn fastman who's here as representing our lighting group you know he can certainly speak to illuminance illuminance all that much later um but the dayight acrylic if i may flip to something really quickly is just a new
technology that we're excited to use here and and um ryan sorry to interrupt but i think this is a new plan i don't think this has been submitted as part of our submission before so we should mark this so let's
identify it please sure this is um this is a a product spec sheet from a manufacturer named steel art um it's from their manual for architectural signage pages 38 and 39 um excuse me for interrupting but mr
bridger has his hand up derek thank you madam chair just before we get away from the sign of the size or the size of the sign um staff was a little bit confused if you look at the detail of the sign it has interchangeable
uh stored names on each side and at the right hand corner you see what i assume would be the opposite side of the sign um it has a different format of names it's not exactly the same so we if it's not the same on both sides we would
count it as right two double-sided sign and you know it's twice the size of a the regular sign so are the names going to be the same on each side it's kind of a difficult enforcement issue it would be a violation of an approved site plan so i would just ask that the applicant speak
to that cuz um you know we're trying to figure out how to you know view this sign so yep the intent is the names would be the same on both sides the messaging would be the same on both sides that's correct apologies for the confusion derek no
thank you so people viewing it from the other side of harrison street where they can't enter at that at at that entrance
anyway i i don't know i find that sort of confusing maybe um maybe your planner or this or somebody can testify to that later sure i'd be happy to i think in our mind at eden's you
know again meant to be a little bit of an amenity curb appeal along north harrison provide awareness provide you know provide some illuminance provide some some signage um some landscape art if you will um not
necessarily you know just try to distract uh drivers on the other way you know to sort of think or or say you know oh can i enter here how do i enter you know um that was our intent
tom i think we're up to a2 is that what you're record i thought this was a1 i thought because the other number okay yeah the other plans are already part of our yeah okay a1 thanks sam sure
so i'll hit a little bit on um the illuminate the illumination um so the dayight acrylic which is the material we're using we talked about it at our last hearing u requested a little bit more information on this the left of
this image is traditionally how you work with acrylic on signs um you have a piece of acrylic and then there's a a perforated vinyl that sits on the face of that and that perforated vinyl is what filters the light and so
during the day the letter could be any color you want but at night the light would shine through the perforation whereas now with the dayight acrylic uh you just have one piece of acrylic that is light filtering and so
again during the day when it's not lit you can have any color of letter and then at night you have a consistent white glow shining through no matter the color this is a real go so what is the color of the acrylic that we're going to
use we would have black letters and and that color matches the uh tenant uh facade signage is that correct that is correct about 95% of the tenant facade signs are black at the princeton shopping center
okay please mr mr leco yes thank you madam chair uh ryan i i don't want to start getting nitpicky but um on that cut sheet you just showed i believe it shows the size range from 6 in upwards and you're proposing 4
in are these the same or is there something i'm missing um size range yeah this is just i think specification um this material we can have lar speak to this but this material can be custom manufactured
okay um so thank you yeah if lumar can comment on that i think that'd be helpful yep yeah um so just staying on the dayight acrylic as again the board asked for some more details on this whether helpful or not um the manufacturer of
this product um has partnered with mac and mac has started to roll out this material at a lot of their headquarter sites um so when you when you look at this manufacturers's website they sort of use the mac partnership as a great way to showcase what's possible with
this material so this sign today this is during the day you can see that it's predominantly white and black just like ours and this will be a2 jerry and then when you go to nighttime the inverse happens so all of
that black material illuminates white and the white material stays dark in the night and so you have a great consistency here material right out of ba3 yes
so this is again that sign during the daytime and then at night time and the last thing i'll conclude with on this monument sign a comment from the board last time we did have some renderings they were sort of pictures of the sign and they were not
renderings of the sign in place along the frontage now this is a rendering of the shopping center that we had done prior to our project so we've put this sign in and uh one thing one difference just to point out here we are
showing 16 retailer names on this at the time of this rendering we were studying the idea of maybe having 12 and so i think we want to u maintain some flexibility around that still maintaining the 4 inch letter
height but like if we wanted to put less panels on the sign we certainly wanted to be able to do that and so i'll show this this can be a4 zoom in a4 i have that right yep
uh and so i'll zoom in here as you can see this would be the the sign during the day and then this would be a nighttime rendering keep in mind it is a rendering but that is the intent you can see the halo illumination the outline
around the printed shopping center and the only thing that glows would be the letters of the sign right and that's a5 a5 correct questions but i'll save them for your lighting people
why we that's why we have them yep uh any more questions of mr leman i don't know if we wanted to hit dan yeah mr weissman thank you uh just one question uh
clarification between the rendering and the plan is shown the rendering shows multiple lines uh per vendor panel um but the plan shows individual lines would would the idea to be have just one row of line per
individual vendor panel um or would that be split up across multiple lines as shown here i think the the idea would be one um you know this is again we were studying this when we were doing the rendering so we sort of looked at a few
different options the idea would be one row of words at 4 in um and we would work with the retailer if they had a very long name we would try to work with them to come up with a way to identify that was that was appropriate
okay thank you mr mr weissman or mr leco or maybe mr cohen or anybody um what is the speed limit along um harrison street at that point posted
speed limit is 30 miles an hour if there were any other questions i'd be happy to move quickly to the directory signs if you'd like me to just explain those the updates we made why and then happy to to stop yes okay good yeah
please mhm go back to the sign plants here here they are which we included u so this is the d1 sign this is again to a reminder right behind walgreens in
the landscape island there as you enter and one of the points uh mr mr cohen um comments from the board last time were we had originally shown this sign just to be onedirectional to to sort of focus everyone on who they need to take a
right uh to go visit and the comment was let's also show whom can be focused on going left and so we've modified the design of this sign to show both directions with some with some retailer names on there we also enhanced the design of this sign a
little bit i think if you remember we had sort of p picturesque signs one of the comments was let's really look at heights let's look at letter heights let's let's look at the arrows let's really put some thoughtfulness into these signs so we
tried to do that with these signs we tried to give them a little bit more of design make them a little bit more of a design element tying with the colors of the shopping center the font of the shopping center and then one thing that that edens is doing a lot more of um is
the thank you or the goodbye message at our properties we have it at a lot of our properties we don't have it at all of them we're trying to incorporate it wherever we can and so that was the genesis of uh putting a thank you for visiting on the back of the sign uh the
other piece of that is also that um we don't love to have blank backs of signs wherever we can help it we often find that you know the messaging does not make sense on the on the back but maybe just having the shopping center logo or thank you or
what have you is a great way to just infuse a little bit of fun into it a little bit of placemaking what's the point of having the eden's logo if anything it seems to me confusing i could see people not familiar with the shopping center thinking "oh this must be a store and i missed it where is it?"
um i think the point is just that you know we are the owners and stewards of the shopping center i know that yeah um you know nothing more uh something we've you know seems to be advertising but
u be that okay okay can i ask a question yes of course of course go ahead mayor thanks um on on this sign on the back side of the sign
since this is by an entrance only i would wonder gauging the ability of people to drive these days if this would encourage people to think this is also an exit driveway and if it makes sense to put
something that says exit with an arrow pointing them down to the next driveway so people don't try to exit by this driveway yeah it's a good point yep i think it's a great point um i think we can certainly look at that
i think the other piece of this is we did think about that and we said let's keep it consistent for now let's get the board's feedback um there is a crosswalk or a sidewalk that walks along that property too so there is always the opportunity that someone is exiting the
property walking so this sign could speak to them as well um so that was another thought we had um claudia wilson anderson thank you uh following up on mayor freda's comment um recently when i
was there we were at the pediatrician at the backside went around avalon uh you cannot go directly uh past walgreens to get out but you can go around walgreens and go past the uh drive-in drive-thru
pickup for walgreens and exit that way and it gets very confusing in there i don't know if anybody else has experienced it but there's a circle that you can go through to get out that oneway entrance uh because there is an exit there too um is there something
that you can do with signage to discourage driving around walgreens to exit um yeah we we could certainly you know something as simple as a sign that's you know walgreens drive-thru pharmacy traffic only or you know something to
help dissuade that um be happy to look at that it's actually i'd never thought of that myself so thank you for bringing that up uh mr cohen thanks claudia i just i wanted claudia to clarify a little bit
because what it sounded like you were saying is if you go through the the drive-thru yeah you can sneak out you can then sneak out there which is not supposed to be the case um two driveways there one is going through the
drive-thru but there's one yeah i'm gonna go there now because uh yeah yeah i don't i don't think you're right i don't think that was that was a little bit of a news to me too because you know you're not supposed to be able to i think this was all designed to send
this this car back into this direction and back out but people could yeah i guess they could make the maneuver illegally so i guess the point is we need additional signage there of some kind
left turn only or right turn i'm i'm no exit no exit maybe all of the above and may maybe even some geometry to make it difficult to me even more difficult
to make a right turn there uh if i might add i believe there is a sign uh that says you can't make a right turn uh i just know that because i get my prescriptions there um and it it's never really occurred to me to make the right so i believe there is a sign
saying left turn only or something like that so i mean of course if someone just disregarded that then so be it they'll probably disregard any sign a scoff law like claudia i i do believe you can make the left turn there
is what i what we ended up doing was coming on the uh past the drive-thru not in not in the drive-thru but past the drive-thru and going out and making a left turn there right correct
yeah so take a right turn there and exit from that driveway onto harrison with harrison going left it's a one-way arrow in at that point um so you would have to make a right onto
the white to then make a right somewhere just to uh i just did double check this off to the side here but this this sign is a no right turn sign and this sign is a one-way sign pointing that way so
there's there's i would say not a traffic engineer but to the road roadway standard signage to alert people that you should not be not be making a right turning this way yes but the reality of what people want to do
so that's good to know one other question if i may um before we go on to the other signs relating to the entrance near nomad where the transformer is being moved you said the transformer is larger than the existing
transformer that's there yes is there going to be any screening around it i don't have a sense of what it's going to look like there but it looks like it's very close to the entrance yeah currently there's no landscape currently shown so just for the for the court's
benefit i'm i'm on my co3 site plan that was submitted this is the existing transformer you can see this is the transformer here this smaller box it sits on this pad here and then this is the new transformer here slightly larger it sits on a slightly
larger pad and you know the new standard um today is the ballards as you see and so we did not propose any additional landscaping right now um this is a very treated area there's a lot of grass there's flower beds along here so we did
not just we just did not want to necessarily add anything on top of the ballards um i did ask the question if we could landscape in lie of ballards um but i guess we cannot do that that is a that is a standard we cannot do was
that's what i was told how large is a transformer [Music] to mention approx so it's about a little bit less than five feet wide i was going to say it's
probably about five feet by five feet five feet wide yeah so it's a little bit less than than five feet in one direction and five feet in the other direction i believe it sits on a six foot by six foot concrete pad a little bit 7 foot by about a seven foot by
seven foot concrete pad and how tall is it also five feet would it create any problems if landscaping in addition to the ballards was installed not that i'm aware of problems not that
i'm aware of i think we would want to just be mindful of what that might be and not you know not make this area start to feel really more crowded yeah ryan ryan i would think you could i know in a project that i was involved in
not too long ago we have landscaping literally right up against the transformer pad so yeah i don't think you'd need to put the landscaping outside the ring of ballards you could almost okay let the landscaping help hide the ballards but i definitely would not remove the ballards seeing how much
traffic is in that parking lot yeah okay great tip i think justin has a question and mr cohen yes sorry about that um i was i was looking at the relocated trees again uh leco and then mr cohen yeah and madam
chair i will have a comment later on the relocated trees um okay but um i just wanted to add to the conversation about the um uh screening uh we just had an application at the zoning board last wednesday one of the eating clubs had to put a transformer outside it and they
were able to screen it pretty effectively now of course to do that you probably need six foot tall bushes if you really do not want to see it um and at the eden club with its historic nature and the architecture of the building uh they they did enough uh to
make sure that it wouldn't be seen i don't know if that's necessarily necessary here uh but the board may want to consider some sort of screening at least from the street if not uh from all sides of the the uh transformer itself
can i say something really quick before a few more questions on this topic of screening i would also i would also recommend for the board's consideration you know one thing as part of our project we have partnered with the arts council on a whole lot more art at the
shopping center hopefully you've seen some of it and uh fortunately or unfortunately this is not the first time we've had to work with pseg putting equipment at our shopping center and then having to hide it um one of the
retailers that moved into building f there was a gas meter that needed to be relocated outside the building we painted a mural on the building where that gas meter is and hid the gas meter inside the mural um and so we could certainly i offered that up we could certainly look at i've seen plenty of
transformers and electrical boxes in many towns painted you know as pieces of art so i could certainly offer that up as an alternative that is an a really interesting alternative and i'm i'm glad you're doing so much more with art i've seen
those transformers and they can be pretty cool uh david paint the ballards right it could kind of be this whole cool thing thanks david yeah i was actually going to say um i think interspersing
plantings with the ballards would have the you know the desirable effect of both screening the transformer but also screening the ballards which aren't terribly attractive um you
know reserving the right to change my mind if the arts council comes up with a an awesome uh decorative approach to the transformer and ballards and and the other thing i just wanted to put a pin
in this is maybe for dan weissman's benefit more than anything is that because we're looking at a road diet for harrison here um relocating the cutthrough of the island over by the
south driveway which we were just talking about might be an additional way to discourage uh undesirable traffic patterns right because i think we what we saw was that there is a cut through
of the island and if somebody exits there by the walgreens they can actually make a left turn not that they're allowed to but there's a way to make a left turn onto harrison southbound which
i think um is really undesirable and so i would suggest that um we should be moving that uh pass through of the of the island as we redesign the road to help solve some of these issues
yep it's not not so much for the applicant but yeah good really good point though david thanks uh any other questions for mr leeing this point
okay let's move on ryan i think you were gonna touch on the other two directory signs real quick i'll do them real quick we talked about the d1 and the messaging thank you for the comment um d2 this is the sign as you come in valley road um
we showed this sign previously in a slightly different design one of the comments was um we had it centered on that you know entrance as you come in the reality is is we probably want it off center to be in that line of sight we've made that adjustment um and then
we've also just changed the design of it to be more in line with the signs and we do have the thank you message on the back there's no exiting traffic at all here uh this would really just be for pedestrian benefit as you walk along the sidewalk in and out of the office
building as maybe you're returning to your vehicle to exit um but there is a message on the rear this side and then the d3 which we've altered um to relate to the potential new turkey
road connection that may come in a future date um as to again speak to that entering traffic as you come in directing people to take a left or right that same thing message is there uh there's no exiting traffic but you know as a just a bit of placemaking for
pedestrians maybe going to their car that are then exiting mr leeing um can you speak to how you decide which store names to include on these signs that have only eight store names or even those that have more sure
yeah sure um you know i think we we'd love to highlight everyone um we we realize that real estate is limited and size of sign is limited and balancing legibility and visibility while still not feeling too large or overpowering um
right now as we've proposed it um there is a bit of a hierarchy in square footage you know capri is the largest retailer at the shopping center they're kind of in our industry they'd be considered an anchor um and then you have folks like walgreens ace hardware
um the pediatrics the ballet um they're also a very much larger partners of ours and so that's really what drove us um to sort of start the largest and work downward and get to a point where um if
you were of a certain square footage or larger you had some presence available to you on the side that that's how we approached it just as this first pass um obviously we we could still rethink that but that's how we approach it
okay thanks ryan do you have anything else right now um no no thank you okay any um additional questions for mr leman at this time well i i just want to
make sure i think that maybe the engineer is going to talk about the size of the letters and legibility so yeah that's actually our next our next witness david right so i now call
larry gliozi yes so mr gozi you've been uh sworn uh can you just uh briefly uh describe your uh your professional background please sure my name's larry gleazi i've been an
owner of lumark signs for 30 years uh we're in hillsboro new jersey uh previously i owned and operated wayne advertising agency and during my time running the agency i realized that
there's a need for sign companies that understand marketing and communication which you would expect to be the norm but it certainly isn't um so as a result i started lumark signs and we've grown into a high-end fullervice
expert sign company we design fabricate and install signage for uh commercial customers and we cater to large corporations that need improved branding throughout most of new jersey we've done
repeated projects for amazon eli liy johnson and johnson and of course eaton's property management we recently designed signage for honeywell via cbre in hamilton township and most recently we have designed and
manufactured identification signage for the princeton battlefield park which highlights some of the battles during the american revolution um i would like to address the letter size and visibility of the shopping center proposed signage so uh
before you uh do that uh mr gleazi i just want to offer you as an expert in sign design and uh fabrication we accept those qualifications thank you thank you so uh as as you started to
mention um a question from the board is um the proposed letter heights and the visibility of those letters uh from certain distances when someone is uh
traveling uh so let's first start with the id sign can you uh comment on the letter sizes and the visibility of those um of those letters please sure um there
are many variable variables uh for visibility letter height contrast type faces um so this is a basic conversation about visibility and
distance um for the proposed site id sign tenant letters are 4 in high and the letter height for princeton shopping center the name is 7 in high um for 4in letters this allows
up to 150 ft of visibility and that comes from chart that is on many of the documents uh right there and
um and 1 in of letter height approximately equals about 10 in or rather 10 to 35 ft of visibility so each inch uh gives you a wide range of
visibility for the proposed sign um we have 4 in high tenant letters uh the shop princeton shopping center name is 7 in for 4 in this allows up to 150 ft of visibility and the speed limit on
north harrison street near the sign is 30 mph which translates to 44 feet per second this allows a driver about three and a half seconds to recognize tenant
names and slow down uh any smaller letters at that speed may have a negative impact on traffic obviously also drivers will see the princeton shopping center name at 7 in high much earlier and that will
enable drivers uh time to slow down sooner for the three internal directional signs the letter height for the merchants is 3 in and at this height assuming a speed of 15 miles per hour a driver can
recognize names at approximately 100 ft which allows the driver time to make a decision as whether to turn you know which direction those are my so i i i think there is a uh an exhibit that we were
going to show with related to those distances to the directory signs can we uh pull that up please yep am i still driving here yes so um was this in our original uh plan set or is this a new exhibit this
was yeah we had these um if i remember correctly we had these plans included but we did not highlight the areas um as it related to site and zones so this is co2 our site plan c-2 in our
site plans okay so mr cleozi can you um talk about this this exhibit and the uh the areas that you were mentioning as to when a driver can begin to see the uh
the letters on the sign um well i mean it depends of course where what section you're looking at but again the uh size of the signs have in part been reverse
engineered to to get the size that we needed so we started out within minimum size and also trying to stay within the regulations as close as possible but um so you mentioned 100 ft is when a driver turning into the
shopping center uh approaching the the uh directory sign and let's look at d1 for example i think you said 100 ft um is when they begin to to see the letters is that your testimony that's
correct yes all right and that's represented in the red shaded area on this plan we didn't produce this plan the um i can happy to help a little bit if that's it's applicable but the if i'm
zooming in here for everyone's benefit yeah maybe that maybe that'll help uh yeah this is this is the 100 foot zone all the way out from the sign the total area ryan can you point out where the signs are yep yep so this is yep d1 here i'll
zoom in even more the d1 is here this is 100 feet back which as you can see you know kind of encompasses most of that drive in and what does the green represent uh larry helped me a little bit but i
believe the green represents when you have maximum visibility right yes absolute maximum i think the thing says optimal not optimal optimal perfect
so that's that 30 foot zone uh you were talking about correct correct yeah i believe so here i can check m oh max readable distance for maximum impact okay my mistake i thought it said yeah but it's u the way i think of this
i'm not testifying i'm just making an observation is there's this zone and then out to the 100 foot so this becomes your sort of i guess your zone when you're you're really starting to see that sign in your travel
so um mr is it your testimony that uh given these distances and the um the speed of the cars that we're making an assumption now obviously uh people travel at different speeds but we're assuming you know a 15
m an hour speed once you're inside the uh center um is your testimony that these distances are sufficient for a uh driver to see the
letters on the sign and and make a decision as to which maneuver to make yes they're traveling approximately the speed limit uh these signs will get their attention
in time for them to be able to make an an informed decision uh obvious if we could make the letters bigger that would be even better but um you know we're working with the available space that that we
have and you know if you look if you look at the id number one sign the large sign there's there's a lot of space in between the names um so an argument
could be made that you could make those names larger however that will make the sign more difficult to read not better uh we need to have what's called white space background space so
that we can see mccaffries as an individual from walgreens rather than it all running together um mr cohen yeah i just wanted to make a request
that a legend be added to the plans indicating what the green and red red hatching is cuz i spent a little time trying to figure that out in preparation for the meeting and it's clear from conversation tonight that not even all
of the applicants professionals knew what the hatching was indicating so that would be good to have yeah thank you david i spent some time on it too and never did figure it out um mr leco uh yes thank you madam chair i
want to make a similar request can can we have the professionals that prepared the plans you know testify to them first before uh you know we we kind of introduce them without any acknowledgement of what they are because i think what i just heard was um you
know at least from mr leming this is not testimony but you know we are in the testimony phase uh so i know the engineer is here and it might be helpful to have uh he or she testify to to what's going on uh that's fine uh justin
yes uh we have uh tongue toto lamb uh professional engineer from bowler um he can talk to these plans uh thanks for that justin i i did not understand that we okay
um mr lamb uh i were you sworn in before no i don't think we had him sworn in i don't think so either so let's do that now um sir sir sir muller if you could raise your right hand do you swear or affirm the
testimony about to give will be the truth yes sir you're so sworn um please set your full name and spell your last name first name is tongto t u n g t o last name lamb l a m i'm a boulder b o h l e r we're the site
civil engineer for princeton shopping center on behalf of edens uh mr lamb can you um say a little bit about your education and um what you and and other things that speak to your qualifications so we can accept you yes
2004 graduated from rochester institute of technology and civil and environmental um engineering um phd candidate at ruckers for civil environmental engineering um licensed professional in the state of new jersey and the surrounding states including
pennsylvania and new york connecticut um and virginia and you have previously testified either before this board or similar boards in the state of new jersey yes i have other um experience before mercer county but
not in princeton itself okay we accept your qualifications thank you thank you so mr lamb there's been a question about um uh some plans that we're we've been referring to i believe your uh firm uh prepare these plans so perhaps you can
uh just talk about them and what they represent correct we prepare a five-page set um ryan do you want me to share screen or do you want to continue go ahead take over
let me know you can see my screen we can see it now thank you this is a five-page set it was um submitted from ber engineering sheet c-1 this is the overall site layout plan previously our office was the site civil
engineer for the walgreens application and also for the avalon this is the background of those documents superimposed on top of it we've added the shopping center sign the transformer location and then the free directory signs for wayfinding
purpose that is on sheet one the second sheet is um a zoom in version in set one in set two are for directional um sign one and directional sign two in set three directional sign
number three the difference between one and two and three um one and two you have the green and the red if you add the green plus the red you get the 100 foot distance and that is later on referred to on signage detail but number
from the green is basically the 30 foot readability zone and the 100 foot is the uh distance recommended based on letter heights so you'll see that on sign inset you know d1 and d2 as ryan previously indicated the row has not been
constructed yet for directory sign d3 which is why you do not see that zone red and green and similar if you move it down to the id sign you'll see a co- vision which is from ashtto which is what you see in red and then moving on
on number three which is the transformer location on the left side is existing condition and so what needs to be demolished and the right side is proposed condition and what needs to be constructed as ryan previously indicated we could not locate their transformer in
the same location as the previous transformer because a is larger and b we have to construct a new transformer before we decommission their existing transformer so scrolling through number four that's the detail sheets the top is
about the transformer information from the utility company the detail number two is the bottle replacement as recommended by the utility company number three is their body details four five six these are and seven these are just some associated
site improvements such as curbing pavement ada stripings and then just standard parking lot striping moving on to okay sorry about that site um just give me a second oh okay actually
while you're on this one i want had a question about that one uh the image um on the right in set four um does not show any green only only read uh you know for those
traveling along um harrison northbound and um so i'm just concerned about readability for people going 30 miles an hour or close to it and how close they need to get to that
sign before i don't know it that that little streak of red does not look great to me just saying the streak of red is the ashtto um site triangle for a public road 30 miles per hours we have shown the triangle for 35 miles an hour
because the posted speed limit is 30 you add five for your design so we're shown the sight triangle at the driveway and that sight triangle is representing if someone's at that driveway looking to exit the site the signage itself and the
proposed improvements will not impede okay so that has nothing to do with seeing the sign that's purely sight triangle for people uh exiting at that point okay all right to pull out they have enough distance to a recognize where you
are and have time to stop and we're designed to inter um beyond stopping so it's you know stopping is the minimum and we went beyond that so as a safety matter yeah so you did not prepare any kind of similar graphic with the uh
red and green uh cross-hatching for visibility of the proposed monument sign there that's correct okay i think i was on sheet number four sorry i'll share my screen again
and then sheet number four is just their id sign details and their free direction um string signs oh is this my screen or sorry um can you see my screen or no we can see a screen don't know if it's
yours not sure right it's it's showing uh sheet five co5 sheet five is um simply the sign detail that ryan was previously presenting top upper left hand corner that is their shopping center sign and the balance free signs
are their directory sign their way finding signage and that concludes my five sheet document that our office put together for this project okay thank you um any any questions for mr lamb
okay thank you mr mr leco yes madam chair i actually had a question for the uh uh previous uh expert that was testifying um and i apologize mr glozzi yes yep um i i
believe you said it uh someone could see that that main the the identification sign uh 3.5 seconds in advance uh so what does that mean you know does that mean they can see i mean not all six
they can't read all 16 signs in advance what what does that mean you glance over and you see something or or you know you're looking for a sign that says i don't know starbucks and and you can see that within that time frame or or kind of what exactly does that 3.5 seconds
entail from when a driver going 30 can see uh to signage yeah so um you know not everything happens in that three and a half
seconds uh prior to seeing the sign uh you're looking for the sign it depends on your what awareness you have you may just be not even looking for any sign um the three and a half seconds is
the amount of time it takes to travel that distance uh from when you first see it until you're aligned with it um and of course if you are looking for a
sign typically uh once you see it you're going to start to slow down in anticipation of where the store is so there's there's a lot more to it than just this distance is what we can see
and does does that answer your question uh yes that was helpful i'm not sure if i understand but um that was helpful well i guess i'll ask a f well no mayor freda go ahead thanks yeah i i i think
you know the reality of what happens the way the road is today it's two lanes and people that are going to make that right-hand turn into that entrance are not doing the 30 35 miles an hour they're slowing down so they are going to be able to read the sign a little bit
better and i guess somebody that's going down harrison street that's never been in princeton and never seen the princeton shopping center before might go by too fast to read the individual names but they're going to know that it says princeton shopping center so i think they would have figured it out when they saw all the shops as they
drove by but if not then at least the princeton shopping center part is obvious to them and then i imagine at some point if what we think might happen to to the roadway and it becomes a single lane it'll be very well almost
impossible i think unless it's late at night for people to be doing 35 miles an hour down harrison street so i i i don't know that i'd get all hung up about how long it's going to take somebody to read every store name on
this sign i kind of get the idea as to why they want the sign i don't know that it's as effective as they hope it's going to be but i anyway i i just think to move the conversation along unless there's some real specific what is wrong with this sign type
questions i'm i'm i'm not sure that we're going to achieve much more on this side i think it's you know maybe it's not perfect maybe it's not the best but i don't i don't see where it's a problem uh mr cohen yeah i don't know if um we're starting to get into deliberation a little bit
here and whether there's some more testimony to hear first but my bigger question is the location of the sign rather than the size of the letters um i think that the location where it's proposed is going to drive a
lot of new traffic into that entrance by um by the pizza place by by nomad um i'm not sure if we want a lot of new traffic coming in in that particular entry and i also was thinking
about this fact that there doesn't seem to be a good location for a directional sign at the end of that driveway so that if people do enter there then they come to the the ring road and they don't know which way to go to get to the store that
they want to get to so i would like to have the applicant talk a little bit about why it wouldn't make more sense to have the id sign be incorporated into the existing uh shopping center sign that's at the
valley road entrance that could sit on top of there encourage people to enter in the right place and where they would also have access to a directional sign once they've made the turn into the property so i'd like to hear some discussion
about that yeah thank you i um part one of your comment was was exactly a a concern of mine as well um especially since if mccaffries is identified as the first you'll have a
lot of people turning in there more than than do that turn now and then taking a left turn uh which is not an easy thing to do there uh under the best circumstances so um thank you for thank you for all of
that david um so uh so david posed a question for the applicant to speak to uh mr leeing are you the right person [Music] to field that question or i'm happy to
talk about it a little bit anybody anybody else on our team can also can happy to speak and i think it won't let me stop sharing so am i still up here can you still see this yeah i don't know why it won't let me stop sharing i apologize i might have to leave and come back after after this maybe it's the
engineers file that's being shared right now he wasn't sure so why don't we ask him to stop sharing see if that stop sharing already i think you i think you still have me yeah i don't know why it won't let me stop anyway um this is that entrance of
valley road here in inset to um you know the d2 sign and one reason we did look at this we did sort of study this a lot we kicked this around and and here was our thought process whether right or wrong the existing sign at valley road
sits kitty corner today and it really thinks about people entering in this way entering from the left it really speaks to people that are coming to this side of princeton
shopping center and this is their first exposure um you know the pnc bank is a little bit further down but you're not really like to the shopping center or into it into the frontage of it until you get to this point and so this sign i i believe the
reason they designed it this way is to speak to that traffic to speak to that person taking a left to speak to that person coming this way in the intent of our sign or our id1 sign we testified to
this in the last hearing even though it may be intuitive or people may think or see it and want to take the turn there our intent is to not reinforce or or want to force people or want people to think that that sign is meant to make
you make a turn there it's simply just meant to be a bit of an amenity and speak to the both direction of traffic on north harrison that could view that sign from either direction whereas if we did let's say we we'd be happy to look
at it but let's say we did um replace this sign with the same sign in the same orientation not saying that's the right thing to do but if we did do that this sign would not be visible to anybody coming in the direction uh on north harrison away from
downtown and so if then we could turn it we could say okay what if we moved in the same orientation we brought it down it now speaks to people going this way people coming on valley road cannot see it so that was some of the thinking as to say well let's keep that sign the way
it is as an identification sign announcing the princeton shopping center let's try to use this sign in the in the middle of our frontage roughly the middle of our frontage along north harrison as just a way to provide more awareness of the shopping center some of
our retail partners that's really the the intent of that sign so that was the thinking ryan have you done any anybody on your team done any traffic studies in terms of the uh where the the
the uh origin of people going to the shop shopping center not people just passing by um i'd be particularly curious about how many people would use valley road um as a way of as a as a starting point but i don't
know if you have any traffic data on on this i don't i don't have it in front of me um jerry um anecdotally and i would i don't know if anyone on staff has anything but i think it's primarily valley
road with the bulk of the cars sort of equal split with most i think most now previously when we're doing construction you know valley road and the entrance to nomad were very heavily trafficked because that that entrance
was closed or um at certain times it was closed right when we were doing the site construction for walgreens we then opened it up but then the avalon ring road was closed so i think people still weren't really comfortable coming in there um but now that that's back open again we we're probably not quite there
yet but we hope that that entrance starts to become um a good entrance for folks coming out of downtown the valley road entrance is prominent and this call it nomad pizza entry is actually almost third as far as traffic i think people
coming out of downtown once there's more comfort with kind of you know if you remember how folks used to experience a shopping center they'd really come in that right turn and almost lie all the way down and park you know by readas where there was always a lot of parking um i think once folks get more
comfortable driving around avalon and getting back there i think you'll start to see that entrance become a lot more prominent thank you yep you're welcome that was it was thank you for bringing that up because that was also another consideration is that this entrance if you're coming from either direction this
entrance is actually the last entrance you would come upon you know you would get identity of the shopping center first and potentially use that again this is just meant to as traffic is is passing by you know oh you know ace
hardware oh you know so and so that's right for the shopping center madam chair madam chair you're on mute but i think i sorry about that yeah i'm gonna just unmute myself permanently go ahead justin yep thank you um we've heard a lot of testimony about uh this
uh shopping center identification sign for uh people traveling north on north harrison street um it is a two-sided sign uh do you have any testimony for the need for the other side and and how
cars might see that uh coming south on north harrison street um do you want me to talk about that happy to sure i'm not our sign expert there i'm happy to have larry and team weigh in as well
um you know obviously i think everything larry spoke about the the the distances and such um coming the other direction you're a little bit further away all right and so that will be impacted a little bit um but again i think part of the reason
we you know the luis you mentioned the kind of the red and the green of this sign part of the reason we didn't show that is because again that's that wasn't necessarily the intent of the sign we know people will see it we know people will look at it they might be able to you know they'll say "oh you know
mcaffrey or or somebody else but it's it's just really meant to provide some presence provide some curb appeal." um i mean not i guess short answer is we didn't you know we didn't put any distances on this plan to say a car on
the other side of the road is this far away therefore this is when they're going to be able to read the sign right we did not study that um because you know it was like they may see it they may read it they may understand it they'll see prince chopping center it's just another reminder that we're we're
here in the community um but again not meant to force anybody to make a traffic move or or do anything drastic and i would also add to one thing we didn't speak about too is that um both sides of that sign obviously speaks to pedestrian traffic as well
along north harrison and i know you brought up the road diet but also potential bike traffic uh maybe in the future as well got it thank you and i just had a question for your engineer uh if he's still here um would you be able to show us in that picture in the lower right uh
where the trees will be relocated to i can yeah we can go there hold on um tom i don't know if you technically tong you want to take this i can move my mouse for you if you want to speak to it but yeah if you just highlight the
landscaping would be good we'll do this we're referring to basically sheet c3 uh sorry not c3 um what number is this c 03 yes right so on the left side you
can see the two existing trees basically on both sides of their um underground utilities because of the location of the id sign transformer we locating one of the trees to the right of the double dash line which is identified as a
easement and then the opposite tree on the left side of the underground utility of the gas line further back in the main island between the two rows of parking or the head-in parking there so what you see on the left is the existing location
in yellow and then on the right side showing as proposed condition you'll see same two trees but relocated thank you thank you and i'll just cut to the chase here um there used to be trees there as part of the approval i believe
for nomad uh about 10 or 12 years ago um they seem to have uh gone away since you know just judging from google earth photos since 2018 so really this is not you know it might be a a evening out from what is on the ground now but in a
way this is kind of a net loss of of two trees from what was previously proposed and you know part of the reason i bring that up is just because uh with that approval there's a clear allay of trees along north harrison street um and essentially what would be done here
would be you know uh kind of clipping that allay by at least two trees to put this sign and so i just want the board to be aware of that right ryan do you do you have any concern about um this road in from past nomads
that immediately adjacent to it parking spaces that will be backing out into it did just is that a concern that you have at all and have you have you studied that at all um those those spaces have been there for i
don't know how long but a very long time uh we did not specifically look at anything specific to that um as it relates to this this sign but with this sign you're going to be
pulling significantly more traffic into that minor driveway than than uses it now i mean do you acknowledge that or do you think that's not accurate
um i don't i don't know how to me i don't know how to measure that i don't know how to measure that future effect um i do i do agree in that if you did not turn on the first if you're coming away from downtown and you did not take that first right-hand turn for some
reason you know you wanted to go to macaffies let's say and for some reason if you were a new customer and you perhaps saw macaffry's name maybe then yes if you did not know the shopping center you would turn into
that entrance whereas if you were a repeat customer you would know to keep going and turn into the next entrance because it's closer um and so i i would agree that there's probably a a subset of of folks
u maybe new folks that um are just not familiar with the shopping center that this sign may you know they may say "oh it might force them to pull in." whereas most would either take that first entrance if convenient for them or go
all the way down the valley road um i think the whether it's fortunate or unfortunate this area and part of the reason we wanted to introduce the site signs um despite all our best efforts it
feels like everyone really loves to park front and center um and it's just i think retail nature retail habit right you know park kind of front and center um and so i think this entrance is for those that want to park front and center is is their main entrance
um when i first started working on this project i don't know why i always went in that entrance now i never go in it because i know pulling into an active parking lot and it is you know it's if i want to get sort of in and park and and get around the
center um i tend to go to valley road uh and i tend to take a left and i go all the way around and i i park over near blue bears come in the back side of the grover park side of the courtyard so i i do agree there'll be a subset of traffic probably for some new unfamiliar folks
that um yeah may pull in this entrance as a result of this sign okay thank you um uh okay if if what i'm wondering and maybe this is
an unanswerable question is that if if you were permitted a monument sign there to just identify in the middle of the shopping center that what people are passing is princeton shopping center and did not
um have all of the um store names a top um would you be able to put it between existing trees um do you think you would still need to relocate trees
um and have you studied this well enough to know that the tree that would be relocated to the island is uh that the island is um is a receptive if you will is feasible
location for that tree yeah um by our first study on it yes it is these for whatever reason maybe justin alluded to it there were trees displaced at the point of nomad for some reason and so these these two trees and actually this
third tree here for whatever reason are much smaller than all of the trees along north harrison um and so they it wouldn't fit here yes um to the question about the size of the sign given given that
we are keeping in line with the size of the signs that are on site today the avalon princeton sign the existing monument sign in keeping with the code the height of a sign under six feet
um you know if if it was a suggestion of the board to just have a project id we would simply take the word princeton shopping center and propose it up on the same panel and the same height of the sign because that is the same size of
the avalon sign today so we're trying to create some consistency um that would probably be the first initial thought we could certainly study it but i think that would be the thought it would probably roughly be the same
size which is what that avalon princeton sign today is and therefore you would still want to relocate the trees i i think from a conflict you know just a just a simple
conflict yes or again or new if that was a request of the board you know we're happy to to to discuss that um any questions from board members or staff for mr leming mr lamb
or mr gozi okay um who's next mr leticia i'm gonna leave and come back and try to cancel out my sharing all right i now call mr glenn fastman good evening everyone mr fman i believe
you've been sworn can you u briefly tell the board about your educational and professional background please certainly um i am a graduate of cornell university and i hold a master in fine arts from yell university the
yale school of drama i am an architectural lighting designer i've been practicing for 35 years uh the last 25 years i am the co-owner and principal of bliss fastman inc we are an architectural lighting design firm based in new york city we do uh architectural
lighting both interior and exterior for projects throughout the united states and throughout the c throughout the world uh in princeton we designed the uh crystal myers squib facility on princeton pike that opened about uh eight years ago we just recently
completed the center for theological inquiry uh near princeton university and we've done the uh center for jewish stud jewish life at princeton university as well so we've done a number of projects in princeton i have testified at other
uh planning boards not in new jersey but in south carolina and other municipalities so madam chair i offer mr fasman as an expert in architectural lighting design you almost had me at yale mfa but thanks for all the additional information and
um we accepted qualifications thank you yes i started as a theater designer but quickly moved into architectural lighting um so i am a lighting consultant to edens i've done over 20 projects for edens around the country uh and worked with uh ryan on some of the
initial planning on this project as well uh but as he asked me to come in to specifically look at reviewing the lighting of the sign so if you allow me i'm going to share my exhibit um why oh there we go jerry i've s i've
sort of lost track of where we're at in terms of uh numbers what do you have we're up to a6 okay so i think this and i have a fivepage exhibit so is this a6 through a10 no this is just a6 i think okay the
whole thing could be walked a6 okay okay so but it would be good if you could identify which slide you're on as you go okay so i'm on slide number one which was the which is using the as a base the c01 plan from bowler that we looked at
earlier uh that you can see at the bottom of the page but we've added some images up the top uh which includes the sign design that from lumark that we've already reviewed and that night rendering uh that ryan showed you earlier one of their new exhibits today
so i've just combined that onto the same sheet at the bottom i am showing uh a phototric calculation that we did for the sign with light levels and we're going to go to blow-ups of all of this on the next page but let me step back a little and just describe what we have
done uh using information that was provided to us by lumark signs we were able to create a phototric model of this sign on this uh piece of property to actually look at light trespass at the property uh boundary uh the sign itself
is 16 feet wide 4 feet high and mounted 22 in off the ground above that uh uh plinth with a princeton shopping center name at the bottom the sign cabinet itself is
internally illuminated with led strip lights from it's an it's an anro stick led strip from a company called g2g lighting uh there will be 16 of these led strips inside the sign eight for each face of the sign each strip light
provides 2,243 lumens and a lumens is a a quantity of light output from a light source um so we will get a total of 36,000 lumens of light for the entire sign both
faces or 18,000 lumens per face of the sign as was described uh by ryan earlier only the letters themselves are illuminated the background itself is is solid and will not illuminate at night
it is estimated that the letters occupy about 30% of the surface area of the sign so only 30% of the total light output inside the sign would actually be admitted so that reduces the 18,000 lumens down to 5,400 lumens per face the
acrylic itself is also only um 25% transmissive at night meaning only 25% of the total light inside transfers outside of the box that would reduce the total lumens per face of sign
to 13 1,350 lumens so in order for us to run this in our phototric calculation uh program we had to create a luminere basically of the sign box and what we
did is we took the surface area of the sign that 64 square ft and reduced it down to 30% and made that a continuous luminous i can't create each letter in the software but we created a equal
surface area of 30% to give that the total light output of the sign cabinet mr craftsman you're now referring to another exhibit i believe sorry i moved on to page two so let's um identify this and it'll be this is a blowup this is a
blowup of the first uh page of the specific area where the sign is located with our phototric calculation and an aometric view of that sign cabinet all right tommy if i may is is this the
second page or second slide of a6 is that yes this is the second yes this is the second slide of a6 oh we're marking all these a6 i all five yeah and we're we're up to two of okay two of f of a5
or a6 of a6 yeah got it okay go ahead so we then on both on each side we have the same luminous surface that provides the same amount of light the 13 1,350 lumens across 30% of the surface of the sign on
each side um that was then located in the plan and then we did phototric calculations the calculation points is a 5-ft grid of calculation points measured at the ground
level these points are in foot candles which is the uh uh standard uh unit of measure for light uh light illuminance on a surface so this is the amount of light that's
being received at the surface from another object that is illuminated uh the cab the the the signage runs perpendicular to the property line this dark line here is the property line uh as shown on the bowler plan and our sign
is located here so you can see there are points immediately in front of the sign on each side 18.6 ft candles 20.4 foot candles uh that is the brightness just 2 and 1/2 ft off of the sign in each direction at the center of the sign at
the property line which is this line here we are only getting points no higher than 0.3 foot candles as i understand the uh the uh code we need to be under 0.7 foot candles at the
property boundary there is no point in our calculation that exceeds that 0.7 foot candles and does the does the ordinance also uh uh reflect or mean at ground level
i'm just wondering whether ground level is the same as as eye level in terms of the lumens or or not uh when doing site lighting calculations uh ground level is the usual accepted measure it's never at at eye level uh
the other measure is usually at task level when we do inter interior lighting calculations that's usually at 30 in off the ground but when we do sight lighting calculations parking fields and things like that we always use the ground level all right the uh calculating
surface and uh your uh your staff members can can confirm if that is the way the uh the code is written um so as you can see the the brightness because the sign runs perpendicular to the property line as you go further along
the property line we go lower and lower because we're also going further and further away from the sign and immediately in front of the sign because there is no light emitted on the short end of the sign we're actually have a low point of no of zero foot candles so that's why you see it goes zero to the point goes a little higher slightly to
the left and to the right of the sign and then goes down again towards zero but no point higher than 0.3 at the property line uh this next exhibit this is page three of a6 this is an aometric view of
the sign just showing the brightness of the sign each line here represents a drop of 10% in the light output of the sign and we are below 0.1 foot candles 45 ft out from the sign in either direction but as you can see the light
is going forwards and back of the sign not out towards the property line or to the street or neighboring properties we've also go to page four of our exhibit this is just a uh overhead view similar to the plan again just
showing you you can see the numbers not overlaid on a plan but just the same idea of seeing the brightness of the sign and how it drops off all with on the property of the princeton shopping center uh our last page page five of our
exhibit is a calculation of luminance different than illuminance luminance is the light output of a surface but your code speaks of not exceeding 50 foot lamperts at the property boundary uh this calculation is done as
a color chart not as a point chart as the foot candle calculation was done and in blue we are no higher than two now our the the unit of measure of our software is actually in candelas per square meter we are no higher than two
candelas per square me per square meter and a one foot lambert is equal to 3.42 candelas per square meter so in converting the candelas per square meter to foot lamberts which is the way the code is written we do not exceed
0.58 foot lamberts at the property line well below the 50ft lambert allowance so mr craftsman it is your expert conclusion that uh the this proposed internal
illuminated sign uh complies with the applicable uh codes related to illumination at the property line is that correct i do indeed thank you uh questions for mr fastman
okay seeing none um i propose a um a bio break um and uh uh before we hear i guess from your uh planning expert is that what will happen next uh yes madam chair right all
right see everybody back here um at uh 9:43 or before thank you thank you miss phillip um mr leticia
uh yes i now call uh my last witness mr john mcdana uh i believe mr mcdana missed or he did no he did not miss the group swearing in so right
right okay so yes i was born you were um please uh provide your educational and professional background for the board please sure thing hi there again everyone my name is john mcdana i'm a licensed professional planner here in the state
of new jersey that license is current it's in good standing i am also a member of the american institute of certified planners which is our national certification essentially allows us to testify in any state in the union um i am also a licensed landscape architect
uh here in the state of new jersey i'm testifying this evening in the capacity of a professional planner but i do rely on that uh landscape expertise as well in terms of rendering my my planning conclusions um i do this on a nightly basis throughout the state of new jersey
i get to see uh the full cross-section um i do this in courts as well during the day and um i've been here uh in your great community many many times in the past thank you mr mcdana we accept your qualifications thank you madam chair so
mr mcdana uh explain to the board what your role is with respect to uh this project and uh what what you did to reach certain conclusions uh as to whether or not the the variances being
sought here for the the signage as well as the uh setback for the transformer uh are reasonable under the uh the evidence presented please sure thing the planner's role um is always to sort of tie it all together to look at all the
facts that are before the board the evidence the testimony um render conclusions and opinions with respect to whether the statutory criteria for the grant of the relief that the applicant is seeking uh are met and the criteria are well established in our land use law
which goes back to the 1970s now um under the uh subsection c under section 70 of the land use law and we've taken that analysis and can you um summarize for the board uh your conclusions
sure so we first start with a look at existing conditions and compliments to the board and to the community for the for the positive transformation that we're seeing in this particular area uh we know that we're dealing with an important center in the community we're talking about an economic anchor here
that's been a long-standing part of the community um we know that land use does not stand still it needs to evolve uh most importantly retail more than any other land use needs to evolve to stay fresh in the public eye um in particular
bricks and mortar retail which now has to compete with um online sales um that said this has this area has seen a very positive uh transformation through good planning and through the efforts of of this board in the community as well a couple months ago we went through the
upgrades to the sign package on the building on the facade and this is another step in that continuum of positive upgrades um to help evolve the the center to uh the next phase of of its its existence um you heard about
providing for an additional sign along the frontage um again for roadside recognition to provide clear and safe identification of the site for the motoring public and then you heard about these directional signs uh to de demarcate and provide navigation aids
wayfinding elements uh on the site once one is on the property bearing in mind that this is a a very large site in the context of your community one of the larger sites safe and efficient circulation is is certainly key um and
as you've heard these elements become important in that regard what's nice about signage um especially tastefully done signage is that they also become architectural elements or design elements that help tie a site together
much like in landscape architecture where we use plantings to unify a site um we can use hardscape materials such as good signs uh to unify a site as well as i said this is a very large site these signs become markers if you will
they're not only wayfinding signs but they do uh help establish markers on an otherwise large site and provide a unifying element that helps tie the site together um in landscape architecture we like to use that phrase hit and go hit
take clusters of plantings move them from one part of the site to the other part of the site in a repetitive fashion again to help sort of knit the whole site together uh and that's one of the benefits of what this sign package will do as well provide an aesthetic element
much like um a fence uh that would unify the site and a particularly large site together that's especially important when the sign package is done proportionately and tastefully which i think our applicant has put great care thought and consideration into achieving
that objective you've heard a lot of testimony here with respect to potentially adverse impacts the height of the letters the the lighting impacts um again the mass and scale of the signs that are being proposed here and that is really the essence of the application
before the board balance those positives with clear and safe site identification safe and efficient navigation through the site aesthetic elements a unifying element uh certainly efficient use of land and the promotion of the free flow
of traffic as the comprehensive benefits of of this package as a whole with respect to the counter side to that the consideration of the negative criteria i think this board as it always has goes through the the proper and detailed
vetting here of potential impacts again with respect to lighting with respect to the size of the letters and the overall look and appearance and striking that balance where those benefits uh would substantially outweigh any detriments uh so clearly i believe that based on all
the testimony this sign package that's before the board requiring relief for a sign type that's not permitted in the zone an extra roadside sign or extra ground sign and that roadside sign is going to be of the same dimension 16 ft
across by 4t high um as the avalon sign which is another marker at another one of the entrance ways we don't believe it's excessive we don't believe it's intrusive again based on the visuals and the testimony that has been placed
before you the directional signs again are also proportionate to the landscape that's around it uh we think the applicant has provided for a minimalist approach here in terms of doing what's necessary to bring buildings and
storefronts to the street uh well where we know they are long established set back from the street so the way to bring those stores and those offerings to the public is by good signage by uhformational signage that will announce to the public that those offerings are
there and again help to draw people uh into awareness of of the site and the uh uses that are thereon um in terms of the statutory criteria we believe multiple purposes of zoning are advanced here including purpose a the promotion of the
general welfare with an enhancements to an established business an established center with a long-standing commitment to the community that has certainly been an important part of your economic engine here um it says over and over in your master plan about providing for a
stable ratable base economic development this has provided that for a long time and um as i said this brings it into the next step in its evolution we think what's being proposed here is a continuum of the facade signage that was approved a few months
ago also the advancement of purpose h which is the free flow of traffic and that goes all towards those visual cues uh those directional aids uh that lessen confusion um on a large scale site we think that's a benefit as well uh
purpose eye the promotion of a desirable visual environment um again these are aesthetic we think they're tasteful and reflect positively of your community without being excessive without creating overbranding or signed clutter again
planning is all about balance and we think the applicant has struck that good balance here so purpose a purpose i purpose h and i think the board can also certainly find under purpose m our planning goal for efficient use of land
this is a developed site the applicant is working with the confines of what's already there um this is a retrofit and i think that also goes towards the planning purpose for efficient use of land counterbalancing that with respect to the negative criteria the relief is
laid out in your planner report i can certainly go into detail into any one of them if the board would like but i would say in general relief related to the sign type that roadside uh sign that's being proposed and the illumination of
not only the roadside sign but the other signs as well uh the three directory signs which exceed the maximum allowance in terms of area slightly exceed the allowance in terms of the overall height and then the illumination which you've
just heard uh good solid testimony on as well uh the transformer we've heard about testimony about that as well as an essential element or a utility element that's cited by public service on the site even though it's closer to the road
than it is allowed to be at 29 ft where 50 ft would be the minimum required that's where it provides its utilitarian function on the site mitigated by the fact that the primary sign is going to be closer to the road and be the more
the more dominant feature uh to the eye uh the mitigative measures of the fact that we're dealing with a boulevard road lessening the impacts on the adjacent properties um and therefore i believe under the flexible sea balancing test
the c2 balancing test the benefits of the application as a whole substantially outweigh any negatives here i think the board can also find that there is a meeting of the statutory criteria under c1 which would be a hardship related to
the land and the structures lawfully existing thereon this is an established center this is an established site these signs are being proposed again as a retrofit of that which is already there uh whereby relief relates to the land
and the structures that are lawfully existing thereon the board could find that there's a a basis for c1 i think the stronger aspect is c2 under the balancing but i give the board the c1 to uh consider as well it is not the
applicant's burden to hit both c1 and c2 it's either or um because this application does in my view advance both um it is double strong um and therefore the statutory criteria for grant of the relief sought are met um relief can be
granted without any substantial detriment to the public uh and certainly without any substantial impairment to your zone plan and ordinance these are good controls that you have in your ordinance that go towards the quality of the community grant of the relief here
on this very distinct very special site um is not tentamount to a reszone um is mitigated by the sheer size of the property um and in that regard i do not think the board would be exceeding its authority uh that only the governing
body can exercise in terms of zoning uh within the confines of your community um all said as as i said the statutory criteria for all of the relief the applicant is seeking are met based on all of the testimony before the board um
and with that i would close by saying approval is warranted tom that's all i have on direct all right thank you m mcdana miss mcdana is now available for questions uh from the board or staff
questions from other board members for mr mcdana i i just have one question again about that middle um monument sign uh the new sign close to the smallest driveway
um do you see any um you know planning related issues especially related or as relates to public health and safety to having
the sign uh with all of the um with with all of the proposed um store names on facing both directions including the southbound
uh uh harrison street lanes that are separated by a median um and have no access at that point anyway i feel you know i combined with the 30 mph speed limit
and the additional traffic being um directed into the shopping center at that point and then many of those taking left turns with lots and lots of pedestrian activity right there related to not only popular stores but a very
popular restaurant do you not have any um reservations uh about the way that sign is proposed from a planning perspective it certainly is worth a deeper dive madam chair um the
word princeton shopping center certainly provides that uni unifying element that i was talking about what i like about the names of the stores on the front first of all they are they are tasteful they're not excessive they all complement each other um they're the
minimalists necessary to provide that that readability that legibility um and i also think it's the one way to bring the storefronts to the street which is where you would want them and it just happens that that's the way this center was built with the buildings set back
and i think this is a a tasteful creative way to to bring those storefronts closer to the public which is uh where you would essentially want them to be so it's about balance and i think having those uh those names on
that panel in the front there do provide a positive effect and the impact in my view is is minimal you've got a very dominant avalon name on the other side so this lets the public know that there
are other things there besides uh avalon thank you um mr leco yes thank you madam chair uh i'd just like to ask mr mcdana or mr leeing has the shopping center in its nearly 70 years of existence had any
issue without bringing the stores to the street as mr mcdana testified for you know is that is that a valid i know it's an you know a beneficial thing for the shopping center but has that been a concern over the past six decades
i can i can start um obviously eden's you know has only owned the shopping center for about 10 years a little bit more um uh i would say that you know bringing the bringing the the storefronts to the
street is a great analogy i think as we finished our redevelopment and reinvigoration of the shopping center we are still leasing the shopping center and even though we have a lot more spaces
coming um we are still working on this is only one storefront justin but we are still working on a large vacancy on the grover park side and i think one thing maybe not decades back um because we know that the the design of the shopping
center was also very different in that i think i think at one point the storefronts were all on the inside facing the courtyard and the the call it what faces the street now were actually the back doors of a lot of the stores i think that was how the shopping center
was originally created um you know we have heard from a lot of our retailers conquered pet ace hardware um some of those folks on the grover park side that um they wish there was a little bit more love or a little bit more presence or a
little bit more visibility to uh to them and so that is uh something we also are thinking about and trying to solve for with this sign and some of the wayfinding signs so uh we would love to bring more of those grover park side uh
retailers to the street if we could which i understand that and i think i was basically the testimony about the facade signs when you were asking for you know bringing the ones that didn't have the the frontage towards north harrison street but through your testimony before and through what you've
shown in the documents it appears this you know the the 16 spaces are going to the highest bidder or you know we saw starbucks and mcaffries because it was largest you said it doesn't necessarily appear that those are the the grover park uh tenants
yeah starbucks is not on any sign um so the way that we approach that starbucks is one of the smallest retailers of the shopping center um the way that again the way that we approach the hierarchy is actually not by the highest bidder
but by u the largest square footage um and so that was really just how we approached it to show a direction you know we're happy to if if if there's a comment to rethink that um we're happy to do that um but folks like metropolis
conquered pet ace hardware um they are large you know we have space 130 space 140 which are also on the grover park side um that's five of the 16 in those just in those few um that would have some additional presence on that north
harris side just from our approach of going by the square footage so we could always rethink that approach um and we may and we we certainly want that flexibility but that's how we just approached it for tonight was uh based
upon a square footage hierarchy to have some some reason and some logic got it thank you um mr cohen did i see your hand up yeah i didn't take it down maybe it was just waiting too long
uh so i i want to give ryan a little love uh i really really like the new sign designs that you brought tonight i think they're much better uh than they were the last time we saw them
um i think that uh you know all the directional stuff is very clear um and reasonable i think the lighting of the illuminated sign makes perfect sense based on the testimony of your lighting
expert um the only reservations i have uh one the signage on the back of the directional signs i i really don't think on sign two
and sign three that it's meaningful at all sign two the back is up against bushes actually they're pedestrians are never going to see the back of that sign um sign three that's over by the rear entry again no sidewalks that go
anywhere near there you know a couple of drivers who park in that portion of the lot might see it but it's just not meaningful in those two locations and as others have mentioned on on d1 it sends a message that might be
misinterpreted that this in only driveway is also available for going out so i would suggest just eliminating the the messaging on the back of the signs um get rid of those three
variances i think the transformer is fine in its location as i said before i'd like to see some planting i'd like to see planting between the ballards that would help to conceal the ballards as well as the
transformer and then in terms of the id1 sign i've already explained you know what my concerns are i'd love to hear from other members of the board um i think that it it makes a lot of
sense to get the identifying information for the retailers up on the street as mr mcdana suggested so i really don't have a problem with the design of id1 but i want to hear more people's
opinions about the location i'm concerned about driving more traffic into that uh driveway um and that sort of fouling up the internal circulation of the of the site as a whole so those are my thoughts
yeah as people can tell i'm concerned about that too and i also am concerned about the interruption of the streetscape um uh and to that point um justin do you have any kind of image
that shows existing conditions there former conditions sure kind certainly um so you know i apologize for not including this in the report as this is something we probably
would have but just with the time frames that we had uh it was hard to do so um jerry do you mind if i show a google street view and then show multiple years are we able to to use that as an exhibit sure absolutely
great so here is a google street view of the shopping center do we need to give this an exhibit number jerry yeah that'd be pb1 pb1 um and it's kind of hard to tell but i'm i'm intentionally zoomed out in this area um this is just after
the amo station uh was adaptively reused into uh nomad pizza so that's why i believe uh these trees were planted as part of an approval for that um and as you can see uh in the median there's a tree back here you know you can see the
poles holding up the young tree in 2016 and then one two three four trees and then there's one over here that is clearly dying um but then here's the the remainder of the allay uh kind of canopy
um if you move up to 2017 in in roughly the same spot you'll see that dying treere is gone but the other 1 2 3 4 and the median one are still there uh 2018 is basically the same situation um but then when we jump to
2023 the tree and the median is no longer there um and you can actually see a hole in the ground where um uh you know there were four here and then the dying one there um so what the applicant has proposed to do is essentially uh
move this one back here uh and move this one to more or less where the the third in tree was before um in order to put the sign here uh now i'm not a tree expert by any means um i know there's a lot of reasons why trees don't take um
but my concern would be well first off like i said earlier basically this would be a net loss of two trees from the approval from you know 10 or so years ago right off the bat um and it just the dimensions of
where the the la stopped would you know be pushed up to here instead of all the way to nearly the end of the island but particularly concerned if if these are moved and they don't take like the other two didn't take well then we're left with really the last man standing here
and a sign over here um and that clearly is not going to you know replicate this condition so um does that answer your question madam chair or or do any other board i don't think that it's just the
the um you know the angle that you're showing it at but the tree all the way to the left which would be relocated looks to be by far uh the happiest where it is um although i could i that could be
um sort of an illusion i can't really tell it's it looks to be a a good bit taller that's all uh and and have a a bigger caliber but yeah um yeah so i'm interested in other
people's uh thoughts about that um as well um any other uh testimony mr uh no madam chair that completes our direct presentation okay uh before we open this um for public comment are there other
questions from board members for any of the witnesses tonight louise i'd like to just jump in on the what um justin pointed out about the trees mhm so i mean if the trees were required in a prior approval then the trees the number of trees at some point should
equal what was required before so i'm not going to get hung up on they have to be exactly where they were before i understand the transformer and the sign cause complications but those two trees should be replaced somewhere on the property i would say
yeah thank you for that um miss capazolei yeah i just have a comment about um i'm at the shopping center a lot and i do see some people using that drive but generally if you i think um if you want
to go to macaff you don't use that because it's farther away and more people i think are going around that loop in the back um to get to where they want to go and i'm kind of worried that
if we have a transformer there and no sign then it's not going to look great you know like yeah you can do some landscaping around the transformer but you're still going to see the
transformer i think i i don't know i feel like the sign is going to actually buffer the transformer a bit [Music] and that might look better um i agree about planting more
trees but yeah i i i'm kind of concerned that if it's empty it might not look so good and um do you have an opinion about the
um the identification sign versus the store name signs yeah i mean it's because of the uniformity of the other signs i think we're
we're whatever we choose we're going to have about the same size of sign you know whether it and and having the opportunity to let people know about the stores on on the grover side i think is is
actually a good thing because a lot of people don't even go to that side of the shopping center um except they have to now because there's no parking any available anywhere else that's actually the good news from the uh stores point of view
i'm sure um any other oh thank you for that any other um questions uh from board members before we hear from the public miss wilson anderson okay um yeah i would like to
make sure that there is a provision that if and when the access ingress egress road from turune is built that we will have another discussion there about signage and exits i am a bit concerned about congestion in the parking lot as
there are three entrances and two exits and all of the people at avalon are coming in near avalon but exiting through the shopping center so i am hopeful that part of our requirements in the future will be to address a sign
when the tur road entry exists uh for that purpose i also agree with julie about having the names of the stores out is good for the merchants in the rear on the grover park side and so i don't have an issue with the store
names being on there um i think that's it for me yeah and once that road you're talking about is built there will be four entrances and two exits that won't be a two-way there
no i don't think so is it mr weissman isn't that a [Music] one-way that alleviates some some of my concern about the back area being blocked in so we do also want to address
i believe that first entrance coming up north harrison uh at the walgreens to avoid some of that circling walgreens to get out there for especially residents at the avalon yeah yeah okay good thank you for that
um all right so um don't see any other comments coming i'll [Music] um establish this uh as the beginning of the open uh public comment period uh we have four attendees in the attendees
room um if any of you would like to now it's three any of you would like to speak um i see one hand go up um carrie would you bring over will um and if either of the other attendees
would like to um would like to speak to the board now is the time to raise your hand virtually okay i don't see any hi will welcome um mr mueller will swear you in and then we'll ask for your
first name and last name with the spelling of your last name great you raise your right hand do you swear or affirm your testimony about the gift will be the truth yes i do thank you please say your full name and spell your last name uh will price p
r i c e okay uh do you need address no no okay um yeah i've been listening to the conversation i didn't hear all of the testimony i came in late and i guess um you i not really anticipated uh to
have a concern but as i as i uh listened to how this would be designed and the and just more about i mean i know that that that section very well i bike there almost every day going back and forth to the shopping center um i think you know in reality most people either know where
they're going or they're using navigation and if they don't they probably shouldn't be trying to pick out one of 16 names on a sign especially if we're trying to encourage people to you know to to use a bike when they shop i mean it's very it's already getting more
more and more congestion over there there's um it's already confusing um it is already hazardous for cyclists and i just can't imagine if someone doesn't know where they're going trying to read a sign and figuring out which driveway to go in when there's hopefully more and
more cyclists going back and forth right along that road um and as i said i i i use it every day and it is you know it's pretty harrowing at times and i think that those intersections there are getting uh more dangerous and i'd just
urge the board to be very careful about adding something that will create distractions for drivers that's all i had to share um quick question mr price and i don't usually ask questions of people who testify but um as a bicyclist um because
we certainly do want to encourage um pedestrian and bikes uh and that's being as i understand it taken into account with the with the um work that's being um thought about for harrison um would
it be helpful to you as a bicyclist to see the names of stores especially those that are on the back side um of the of the on the grover park side of the shopping center if you were looking to go in there it's hard to imagine biking
over there with not knowing what i was going for right i mean you go over there bike over there for a purpose so yeah all right thank you mr cohen
yeah i mean if i don't want to interrupt closing the public comment section so but i uh no so thank you mr price that's that's all and i need to get out of here right we'll we'll kick you out you don't
need to do anything i mean carrie will we'll send you back over to the attendees room so no worries um any other members of the public uh want to address the board i'm not there's two people now in the attendees room don't see any hands going up so i
will close the public comment portion of the meeting now and turn to you mr cohen yeah i just wanted to comment really in response to will's observation that this question of whether having the
names of stores is useful um because people tend to know where they're going i want to relate it to a phenomenon with digital search versus uh you know encyclopedias
something that at least people of my generation lament is the um lack of opportunity to discover stuff that you don't already know you know to the fact that to the extent that people use
wayfinding it's to go to figure out how to get to a place they already know about and what's good about this kind of directory signage because i'm sure edens will keep it up with the changing
um roster of tenants is that it'll be a way for members of the community possibly to learn about the existence of new uh establishments you know my wife and i only recently went to um
pasta pastamo yeah it's this fa fantastic little place it's new you know um we probably shouldn't have waited as long as we did to get there but we didn't really know that it was there so i'm
just making a pitch that i think there is a value to having that kind of directory signage that um lets even longtime community members know that something new has arrived at the
shopping center yeah thank you since you mentioned pastamo i have to shout out mia spa fabulous uh mr o'donnell and i'm just going to put in my my plug for blue bears because you know
there are so many people who have heard of blue bears but you know aren't either aren't exactly sure where it is or or they they've heard of it but don't together with the shopping center and and you know so having it on a sign out
front might be a a nice little boost for you know a good restaurant in town it's a great point thanks owen okay other comments questions thoughts as we deliberate
and thoughts about conditions we might want to impose any any i want to actually i am interested of course in any thoughts the board has but i'd like to hear from
um mr leco and mr weissman because there were some you know quite um some real red flags raised in their memo whether or not the
the testimony we've heard tonight addresses [Music] um the uh the points that you made i mean you know including [Music]
um whether the proofs have been made uh sufficient to um well to address all of your concerns i'm sorry i'm sort of losing my ability to speak at this point justin you want to go first sure yeah i'm happy to do so
uh i'll hold off on um the testimony necessarily about the illumination because i think dan as an engineer has a better grasp on that so just you know i'm not considering that so let's not consider that right now um but i think most of the proofs that mr mcdana said
you know make complete sense um i'm still just a little on the fence about the uh the identification sign and really do the positive uh you know are there the positive reasons for the
community not just for the applicant um that outweigh you know the negative reasons because i i think there is some information that we're not you know fully uh uh sure about you there there's been
some kind of uh paradoxes about well this is going to slow drivers down which doesn't seem like something we want or this might bring drivers to an entrance that we don't want um and i i'm just kind of
finding it hard without kind of knowing any any uh finality uh about that and then just weighing it against you know like i said earlier shopping centers been here for six decades uh and and things have generally worked so
um that's generally what i would say about that um and again that's considering if we're considering the c2 criteria the more flexible variance i'm going back to the c1 variance which you know is about the specifics of the lot which can take buildings into account
particularly buildings you know that are that are 60 70 years old um again i don't know how that really relates to this sign specifically and if it does how this is the absolute least uh uh you
know impact that is needed um to direct people to the shopping center because uh one could certainly argue and and i kind of have or at least i've heard it too um that if it's about getting people to the shopping center you know it certainly
does not need to be this large um if the board finds that uh about getting getting people to specific tenants um you know that's kind of a different story uh but uh again that is really you know based on the uniqueness of the
properties not necessarily that the walgreens pad site has the largest uh uh square footage and you just passed it and you pass the three signs it has and you're going to catch it on the fourth you know uh so um other than that
i would say uh it seems that uh the the proofs offered about the directory signs you know that makes sense to so you know all right i got to make a left here or maybe i should make a right and how that'll more evenly spread out traffic
um uh and then obviously the ballard you know it seems like it can't really or not the ballard excuse me the transformer with the ballards around it seems like that's what's needed from pseg um that's what's needed for the shopping center there aren't very very many other locations or there aren't any
um so if there was any opportunity to screen it you know the board might want to condition based on that um and outside of that i think that's all oh and the the rear uh signs um or
or i should say the signs on the back um i i i think there you know that the testimony that mr leeing offered about why those are uh something that that shopping center would want kind of makes sense one thing that i was thinking too
is you know a blank space ends up getting taken up by something uh so maybe someone with a can of spray paint or or some stickers might end up putting something else on there if it's just blank and and we probably don't want that um but of course uh if there is any
uh i think the suggestion about putting the arrow that said exit for the one you know that makes sense and the board may want to consider you know do they need uh the shopping center logo the eden's logo and the message uh or is that kind
of overkill as well yeah i mean the um back sides of the signs might be an opport another another opportunity to partner with the arts council smaller space but still you know could use a creative
touch maybe and i i i i'm not super comfortable with the edens there because i don't think anybody knows uh that edens owns and runs the shopping center or necessarily cares and i you know not going to die in a ditch over that and
try to micromanage but i do think that um it doesn't make sense to have signs where people where they'll either mislead people as in the case of that one up by walgreens or simply won't be seen um because they're behind bushes or
whatever and and madam chair to your suggestion about the arts council um we have held that there's a difference between signage and artwork you know in things like the mural as long as there's no logos on it so you know i don't want to
speak for our zoning officer um but i do think if there were different lo or if there were no logos um that would be you know kind of a different situation as artwork than uh how it is now with with logos and becoming signage a blank
canvas as it were so meaning we would not have to come back for this board for another three-hour hearing no okay thank you just wanted to make sure of that um okay other comments suggestion oh mr taylor hi jack
yeah hi let me make just a a general comment i feel unconstructive in in making the comment but of all the planning board sessions that i've been a part of this
has been like always a very conscientious thorough detailed discussion and yet it's about a subject that most of us seem to be some some degree uncomfortable about
signage i like david cohen i like your general summary as a conclusion but at every juncture when i reach a conclusion and i step back and i honestly look in the mirror i i'm somewhat uncomfortable and so when i look at a
proposal like this i think to the extent there are some remaining important questions that we're just not comfortable about that we focus on those issues as conditionalities in the final approval
so that we watch what actually happens and based thereon actions can be taken so that's all i want to share it's not a constructive contribution at one level but whatever we put together i'm simply recognizing that we
don't seem collectively to be as comfortable as we should be with the depth and extent of this discussion and the importance of it well signage is a tough thing signage is tricky um you know it
uh sort of subjective um um i mean i'm very glad to have gotten the all the testimony we did tonight on you know the distances that are you know maximally readable versus barely
readable and how far the lumens go and everything that's been super helpful um and i don't feel like it's necessary to come down exactly where everybody is um on um you know every every detail uh but
i i i i hear what you're saying jack and i and i acknowledge that it's i would say especially true for me anyway when it comes to signage now i know mayor freda has his hand up but i forgot to turn to
mr weissman to um to add whatever you'd like to add dan to what justin said um about your the concerns and issues that you raised um
or that you flagged uh in the memo certainly uh thank you madam chair and i apologize mr mayor for cutting in front of you not the guy you're supposed to cut in front of um the testimony and exhibits provided tonight by mr fastman uh were convincing
to me um none of the uh data provided uh indicated that there is a variance uh mr fastman did make a comment for staff to confirm that the uh light trespass is measured at the ground that is confirmed that is the way the ordinance perceives
it uh for the shopping center um i would ask um if the internal illumination is approved that the information that was presented as exhibits be put on the site plan um in
the form of a a light study right thank you um mayor freda thanks uh just to maybe help us move along i would like to suggest some things that we say that here's what we
want i think right we need to add two more trees they can move those trees but they need to put the other two trees that are missing back they need to add the exit arrow wording to the d1 sign by walgreens
the transformer needs to be either landscaped or there needs to be an art solution but either one i think is fine um i i'm okay with the thanks for having been here and on the back of the signs and they can figure out how to make sure
people see them or not and i guess if people can't ever see them maybe they'll come back and ask for something else to be on the back but edens does own the property so if i own the property i think i want my name somewhere um so i i anyway i'm fine with the back of the sign saying thanks for having been
here and i'll hold off on the id sign for now to see if there's other comments on that but i mean overall i think it's a i think it's a good proposal uh and i think it's going to look nice and i'm happy to see that edens is doing things that they need to do at the shopping
center to make it much more appealing and bring more uh more businesses into that area it's a it's a good move for the town thank you yep thanks um other comments
other things to um bring up as conditions mr cohen i just want to suggest in terms of this question of uh planting screenings versus artwork connected with the transformer
this could be something that could go to the landscape subcommittee that basically if the applicant wants to propose artwork in lie of plantings um sort of let let it not have to come back to the board
um great and i i i would very much like to see this come to the landscape subcommittee um and i wonder how people feel about punting on the exact location of
the tree relocation and whether both of them actually need to be relocated or or whether relocating one will do in order to retain more of the potential down the road allay and where the uh two additional trees would
go um is that something it's okay to to um delegate to the landscape subcommittee um mr mueller could you say i wasn't quite could you repeat that so in sorry
um the the question of exactly where um well first of all whether or not both trees absolutely that are um uh proposed to be relocated whether the both of them actually need to be relocated or whether they could get by
with relocating one so as to better um retain the streetscape and allay that's supposed to extend along there and to identify the location of the two
additional replacement trees uh or the replacement of two trees that have died uh the since the plantings that were done right after um nomad pizza was approved okay thank you um i'd be happy
to make a proposal here tonight on all that if you wanted i don't know i would really rather not i'd rather um discuss it at that um subcommittee and and um happy to hear variations on proposals at
at that point i feel like um we need to conclude tonight louise i'd like to suggest that when it comes to the trees the landscape subcommittee is one option but i don't know i think i feel better
if they just worked with the arborist and the town ar municipal arborist figured it out right because lay out where they're going to put the sign and the transformer he can readily say you're going to impact the root system or you're not or this is going to be whatever and anyway right right and
that's a really good point we would absolutely want the input ahead of time from land from the arborist u based on a site visit and also um we always have um dan doberky at
those meetings as well okay but yeah yeah so it won't be us just uh winging [Laughter] it um okay other thoughts would someone like to make a
motion uh i'm sorry mr leco yes uh just one quick clarification would the uh uh condition about the rear or the signs is that just edens can do that and and let them
you know figure it out uh or would that also go to the landscape committee or that would that be working with staff yeah actually heard two um was it your david were you suggesting that the landscape committee take that up or was
that somebody you just said not be permitted that's what david was suggesting i i think that those signs should go away there is no justification under land use law for the variance that
is required to permit those signs in there is no benefit to them so to say that there's a benefit that outweighs the negatives it's i don't see how we can grant that variance honestly and i love the idea of letting the arms
council look at the back of them so that it's not just a blank surface yeah okay i think i come down on that side myself so i would include that among conditions um understanding that edens can put its
name in other places and that would be fine that that's advertising they would need to get in the pool we can we can remove it we'll remove our names it's okay that's not permitted
that's fine okay sorry no big deal justin all right thank you ryan justin did you have something else no no i'm okay thank you okay go is more important right yes thank you uh yeah jerry go ahead
okay um what you've yeah let before you do um claudia you're on mute can we have a requirement that there's a sign installed when that turon road is
open that there must be a sign there that is directing traffic that is also partly a an exit sign well since that road isn't built yet is that what you you were talking about the
road that connects uh directly to tuneu yeah between the alice and the other development um and and the question really is can we require a sign that a sign will be put there
well we are proposing a sign there a directory sign but you said didn't you say you were coming back for that because it's not no you didn't okay okay we just we just probably wouldn't i mean there's no reason
to not an entry but we'd have approval complete okay if that road does show up at one point we would we could then install the sign okay one of the directory signs addresses what claudia was was concerned about
correct she she wants to make sure that there's directional signage that lets people know there's an exit there wouldn't that signage go in when that road goes in that would be on the people that put the i don't think it's it's why should it be on edens to mark a road
that's not on their property well i think i think it shouldn't be part of this application i agree i think um i think they'll want to have signage that helps people understand there's another way to get off the site when the
road is done but it just um and dan dan do you have a comment about this so there are uh signs within the signing uh sign ordinance that are exempt from a permit one of which is a directional sign so they may not have to
come back to the board if that directional sign meets the requirements of that signage okay so once that let's revisit that or count on the staff to revisit it when the road is built um because i think
what claudia suggested makes a ton of sense um and some of and one of those signs might be on eden property and you know facing one direction and another might be on
um uh barski or toll brothers or whoever you know owns the other side of the street um okay but we imposing that not a part of this application
okay well i'll go through the conditions at least is for the board to consider um d1 2 and three um nothing on the back except the art that the arts council can use it uh the back if it comes up with
something um the number of trees in the prior approval lost which was two should be replaced somewhere on the site um in terms of that that should be a decision but the arts coun the land landscape subcommittee uh should review
that after input from the arborist and the um landscape architect um screening between the ballards um that also would go to the uh landscape committee um and david the way you phrase it i think it
was if they wanted uh do artwork if eden wants artwork done instead um that's the only circumstance in which we go to the subcommittee no because we want to know what the plants are there are no plants shown currently so the landscape
subcommittee wants to see the plantings if they do that okay great and then the lighting information submitted should be um put on the plans this is what dan suggested add an exit arrow sign by walgreens
um and then the last the the major item which we talked about mostly is does the board want to grant the variance for the new sign and if it does should there be store uh store names and should the board somebody suggests micromanaging
say provide any condition with respect to who those store names should be for i know my reaction when when um ryan said what the priority was um it was for the stores which need the identification the
least the first was was macaffry it was all the big stores i mean that was that was the structure they were using it seems to me if you want to do it and everybody was talking about that yeah that's a good idea because u the stores on the grover park side need you know
need some identification and certainly it's that's right on but the way this is set up with the store names that's not happening it's exactly the opposite so does the board want to get into that at all so those are the issues do you want the the grant of variance for the sign if so do
you want the names and do you want to have any input on what how you prioritize those names i personally would not want to try to dictate which names to put there at all or how often they might be changed um having said that i would encourage the applicant and
i this is not a condition but encourage the applicant to um pay particular attention to those uh stores that are not visible from the street and um yeah but not as a condition but as an
encouragement uh mayor freda sorry to jump the line no all good no i was going to say partly what i was going to say is exactly what you said how they determine what store names go on that sign that's up to them and we don't want to touch that at all that's kind of crazy i mean
i think if you go by any kind of mall strip mall or whatever it's usually the bigger stores that have their names there anyway i mean that's what that's why they're stores right so anyway um i think we should add just for the sake of deciding what we're doing with the
identification side i'd like i'd like to propose that we make it as a condition that we're approving it as presented yeah that was the of the of those who spoke up about it that was the consensus and so i um i can um yeah that that
wouldn't be a condition though it would be the grant of the it would be just granted so we would just grant the variance okay um just one question of the conditions you uh listed cherry this this exit sign
i thought i thought the comment was if we were going to have that writing on the on the back of the director's sign someone suggested to avoid having people go out the one way that we should have an arrow telling them to turn right but
if now we're saying we're not going to have anything on the back of the sign i don't think that's required right okay and dan weissman you agree with that i would agree with that the directional signage i was referring to is is more uh lower level i think it's a 30-inch
maximum height uh specifically something that would say exit only wouldn't be part of a larger sign okay thank you and mr mr muller uh there was one other um clerical condition if we can add that in uh it's for required
signature format uh to be added to the plans as well right thank you and i had also asked that the um site distance hatching on the plans that there be a that be an explanation a
legend indicating what those green and red areas mean yep okay is that it that's that's it for me okay having heard those conditions would someone like to move approval of this
application i i'll move approval thank you moved by miss capazolei seconded by i'll second thank you mr mcgawen um carrie would you give us a roll call vote please
uh yes mr bodakimer yes miss capazolei yes mr cohen yes mayor freeder yes mr mcgawan yes mr o'donnell yes
mr taylor yes miss wilson anderson yes and mrs wilson yes it's approved thank you all thank you thank you we will we'll see you at the landscape some
of you again at landscape sub commmittee all right thank you thanks again thanks for your patience bye bye bye