okay good evening this is the regular meeting of the Princeton zoning zoning Board of adjustment being held electronically via zoom on May 22nd 2024 7:30 p.m. pursuant to section 13 of the open public meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the sunshine notice of the Princeton Zoning Board of adjustment such notice has been placed on the official bulletin board at the municipal complex and by transmitting a copy of the notice to the Princeton packet town topics the times Trentonian and by filing a copy with the clerk of Princeton on May 17 2024 and has been posted in the municipal website www Princeton nj.gov meetings pursuant to the extension of the ongoing state of emergency by executive order number 292 in accordance with the emergency remote public meeting protocol for local public bodies to conduct a public meeting without physical attendance by the by members of the public notice that during this extension of the state of emergency all regular and special meeting meetings of the Princeton zoning Board of adjustment will be held electronically via zoom and transmitted to the Princeton packet town topics the times and was filed with the clerk of Princeton on the 24th day of April 2020 such notices have been placed on the official bulletin board at the municipal complex and on the Princeton website and are be are to be maintained throughout the year and by transmitting a copy of same to the Princeton packet town topics the times uh Trentonian Comcast media and by filing a copy thereof with the clerk of Princeton notices have been placed on all window doors of the municipal complex okay laia can you call a roll please miss Chen here miss Coulson here Mr DAV Mr Floy here Mr Shriver here Mr Tenon bomb here but unfortunately I'm going to have to leave um all the trains from New York have stopped um and I'm unfortunately going to have to go pick up my wife in the city wow so okay I'm sorry um save travels I can with with permission from um our attorney and Derek I would be able to participate via phone in the car but I wouldn't be able to really see things I'm happy to do that but I don't know if that would work well because I don't know at this point if the applicant has more exhibits to present so I think probably that that wouldn't work because you couldn't see them okay well also don't have an accident Harin Yeah well yeah thanks all right guys see you next month all right Drive say Mr Stein here Miss Donna chairman Cohen here okay we have three resolutions this evening the first one is case number Z 23- 43743 Mount Lucas road block 43 lot what is that lot nine in the r R 2-t zone resolutions were in your packet um if you've had an opportunity to review them if you've had any questions if you have any questions please bring them up at this time if not if someone would like to make a motion I I'll move to Pro I'll second it laia Miss Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr Floyd yes Mr Shriver yes Mr Stein yes chairman Cohen yes thank you okay our next resolution is case number Z 24- 4505 mlan Street BL oh excuse me Nine mlan Street sorry um block um 1501 lot it's dark in here um lot what is that 88 yes sir yes in the R2 Dash my God R2 D5 zone or r four D5 Zone R4 I'm sorry I'm sorry sorry okay once again the resolutions were in your packet if you had an opportunity to review them any questions please ask if not someone would like to make a motion oh moved okay thank you a second thank you Floria Miss Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver yes Mr Stein yes chairman Cohen yes thank you third motion is H case number Z24 uh -4 53 516 Cherry Valley Road Block 2201 Lot 29 in the ra Zone once again the resolutions were in your packet questions comments or motions please so moved second Miss Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver yes Mr Stein yes chairman Cohen yes okay now on to the uh applications the first is a carryover uh 8 Valley Road well excuse me case number z23 438 yes um eight Valley the applicant did Reen notice again and those that noticing is in order so I'll just note that for the record okay 8 Valley Road Block uh 700 01 Lot 36 and 38 okay so is the applicant here tonight or and who will be representing the applicant uh good evening Mr chairman uh John Mayor from Stevens and Lee um I'll be representing uh the applicant this evening uh we also have the applicants uh architect Marina rabina uh who has been promoted as a panelist um and we also I see in the attend attend you list have um Jim calik uh our planner um so if we could promote him uh to a panelist as well uh since we'll be hearing from him this evening as well um Mr Mayor just a quick question before you get started um does the applicant you're going to be relying on testimony from February 28th as well as tonight that was something I wanted to to speak with you about to since we lost um Harland um to make sure that we still have a a Corum of people eligible to vote this evening because I know we do we have one two three four we have five members uh two of which were not at that meeting but they did listen to the tape and have so certified um Miss Chen didn't listen to the tapee I think her impression was that the applicant was really sort of beginning a new tonight with revised plans but the question for you tonight is are you relying on any testimony from the 24th or any documents I mean I'm sorry from February 28th um in order to have M Chen participate as well um we can effectively start from scratch because the the plans have been updated such that the only to the extent we're relying on them it's only to show how uh we have been able to adjust the plans in response to the the feedback we received from the board okay Al righty so so essentially we are not going to be relying we're not we're not reflecting testimony from February 28 and we're okay with that yes okay all right thank you very much okay please begin thank you Mr chairman uh and thank you members of the board uh for hearing us this evening uh we're here tonight for the variance application for 8 Valley Road uh identified in the tax map of Princeton as block 701 lot 306 located in the r six Zone known um while we're starting from scratch uh as many of you may recall uh this project was previously before the board in February um but I'm gonna start from uh start from the beginning so uh Mr Mayor I hate I hate to interrupt you yeah um Steve do you want to hear first from Derek with any updates to his memos and we also have Justin Lesco here who is the town planner yes I do I'm very s he did AO as well can you review your M also uh Ryan is on the Ryan Kennedy is on he's here to um just carry 65 Le oh okay okay Al righty let's see then you're you're muted Ryan uh with apologies for interrupting I I thought um it would be particularly with only six members uh make sure that anyone here for 65 Lee uh knew about the request and and didn't spend their their whole evening so Ryan Kennedy for uh what would be the second application 65 Lee Avenue for uh the Patel family um we would like to we have we will be submitting revised plans for Derek's uh review shortly that will eliminate uh at least one of the variances after getting some feedback from the neighbors and we' like that to be carried to the next meeting Ryan are you asking the board to take jurisdiction tonight I I am if we if we could okay um board members the noticing I've reviewed it it's in order and the board does have jurisdiction tonight so the question is is the board willing to to uh take jurisdiction and then we would announce tonight uh the new date for the application to be heard I'm I'm comfortable with it do we need do we need to vote on that Karen no I don't think so I mean if the consensus of the board is that it can be carried and I think that's what I'm hearing uh then the question is uh Derek do we know what the new hearing date would be June 26 oops I'm sorry no that's correct June 2 sorry I'm sorry you said June 26 26 okay so for anybody who is watching and interested in the application uh 65 Lee will now be carried and heard on June 26th 24 uh the applicant will not be obligated to send on any further noticing uh regarding that June 26 dat thank you all I'm very sorry Derek can you okay on Valley would you summarize your memo please yes uh and and Justin's here can we see yeah see you though Justin he has not uh commented on this application he's here for the uh second application which will be the PDF use variant great so as Mr Mayor stated this application was initially heard in February they've uh presented a a revised plan um the principal dwelling now faces Mount Lucas prior to that the accessory dwelling unit faced uh Mount Lucas and the applicant is Seeking a D1 temporary use variants pursuant to njsa 40 col 55 d-71 to permit two single uh to two ipal dwellings on a lot during the construction of the new principal dwelling um the applicant is proposing to live in the existing uh principal dwelling until the new principal dwelling has been constructed C1 variances are requested to permit the construction of a new single family home and accessory dwelling and exception to the required lot area lot width front yard setbacks and driveway width property is located in the r six Zone in the former Township Princeton Township and it's subject to the use and bulk regulations in accordance with sections 10 246 253 255 25.2 and 26.2 of the former Princeton Township land use ordinance the existing single family use is permitted the subject lot is non-compliant with regard to the required 10,890 square foot lot area the existing is 10,424 lot depth requirements 85 and the existing is 75 fet and the existing uh dwelling that's on the site now is non compliant with respect to the required uh side yard setback 15 feet the existing is 11 and the front yard prevailing setback on Valley Road is 63 feet while the existing is 31 feet I hate to interrupt you I was remiss I need to swear you in swear airm your testimony this evening is truthful yes I do thank you thank you um so the uh applicant is proposing an approximately 1900 ft single family dwelling and a 770t accessory dwelling unit um the main house features a partially finished basement living room dining room kitchen TV room three bedrooms a den and three and a half Bass the Adu contains a living room kitchen two full bath and two bedrooms um a detached single car is also proposed the subject is a corner lot and has two front yards um in regards to the D1 use variants section 10B 276 only permits one principal dwelling per lot the applicant is proposing to live in the existing principal dwelling while the new principal dwelling is being constructed uh the board has granted a variant similar to this in the past uh with some conditions that the existing principal dwelling be demolished within 18 months or within 90 days of the receipt of a temporary certificate of approval for the new residence whichever is first um there's usually a bond requirement to cover the cost of demolition if the application is approve the D1 variance of the existing residents along with a performance bond or letter Credit in the form amount reasonbly accepted to the land use engineer to serve as a guarantee for the demolition of the existing residents um a use variance under that D1 is required and no variance may be granted under this section unless such variance or other relief can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and will not substantially impair the intent purpose of the Zone plan and the zoning ordinance following items should be considered when reviewing these ordinances the applicant has a burden of proof of demonstrating special reasons for the granting of the variants as well as addressing any negative criteria um special reasons may be found where the proposed use inherently serves the public good such as a school Hospital public housing uh where the owner would suffer undo hardship if required to use the property in compliance with the permitted uses in the zone and where the use would serve the general warfare because the proposed use is particularly suited the site is particularly suited to the proposed use um I will run through some of the bulk variances uh again the lot area I mentioned earlier requirements 10,890 existing lot areas 10,424 lot depth requirements 85 existing is 75 ft the front yard set back along Valley Road which is prevailing um required is 63 feet the proposed is 15 for the principal dwelling and the same uh applies to the Adu the the Adu proposal is set back 22 feet 7 Ines um front yard setback on Mount Lucas the requirements 35 feet and the proposed principal dwelling will be 15 feet back and there's a front yard setback again on uh the Valley Road prevailing for the proposed garage which will be setb back 49 ft requirement 63 ft and then um there's a driveway width re requirement um section 10B 25.2 permits a maximum driveway width of uh 22 feet for the first 75 ft of the lot the proposed driveway is 36 feet wide staff does support the proposed turnaround due to the traffic flow on Valley Road and the proximity of the driveway to the traffic signal at the corner um a variance required for that um applicants cons required consideration under the C1 and uh and the C2 as well if you have any questions I'd be glad to address them and that's a summary of the application or my memo and that's it thank you thank quick question yeah Derek um the demolition within 16 months is that 16 months of this approval or if it's Pro I it yes yep I mean I would say once it after the 45 days of the appeal period starts and you know they have to get their plans in so it would be okay thanks there what's the size of the bond is it the full price of demolition it would be something like that the engineer would have to review it to make sure that there are sufficient funds in case something happens financially to the applicant they're unable to finish the project um okay thank you yes sir any other questions of Mr Verger okay let's continue thank you Mr chairman uh and Derek has helpfully uh taken uh already said much of what I was going to say in my introduction so I will not bore you with it all again um but suffice to say and I think as you know was clear from dereck's introduction as well as the hearing in February is that this is a very difficult property um it's undersized and the prevailing setback uh on Valley Road makes it very difficult to build any conforming structure um so no matter what uh my client was proposing to build we likely would have to be before uh this board uh to get your approval but after listening to this board in February we've been able to improve this project um by removing a number of the variances that were previously present uh previously there were variances for ex accessory structures in the front yard setback a variance for Adu corner lot setbacks uh and a variance for a garage corner lot setback um which have all been eliminated uh from this application now uh making this a much stronger application uh and to as it pertains to the temporary uh D1 variant um the applicant is willing to uh work with Mr Bridger and this board um on the conditions of approval uh to make sure that the main the previous main dwelling is demolished um after the new building is complete um so there there's no fight from us on that um now while it might seem like there are a lot of variances with this application um as I said before they'd be present no matter what we'd be building on this property um which makes this a difficult property build on but we've presented a strong application um it's ideal for the site because the project was designed in such a way that there are no bulk variances in relation to the dwellings to be constructed on the property uh there are no variances for f there are no impervious coverage um variances these are all variances for setback violations um additionally um this application would advance the Princeton master plan uh by providing for infill development of smaller scale housing in a walkable section of Princeton rather than further development of empty lots on the outskirts of town um so thank you for hearing us from this evening um I will be calling uh Marina Rina my client's architect uh followed by Jim calik our planner uh and we also have uh the applicant Mr mug himself available in case you have any questions offered uh so unless you the board has any other questions at this point uh I would like to call my first witness Marina Rina one second board members do you have any questions of the attorney okay please continue thank you Mr chairman uh at this time uh I'd like to swear in M Rina um M Rina do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful um yes I do thank you thank you um now M Rina can you please give the the board even though we did this back in February since we're starting over um your qualifications um and professional background uh yes absolutely I'm a licensed AR I think I think we can accept Miss Rino skip that part yes excellent thank you wel all right would that be okay for me to share my screen yes yay it's working yes excellent so I just wanted to give everybody one more time um a refresh view since we're starting from the beginning in case you forgot what this um property looks like this is a view from the corner this is the existing house um located at eight Valley Road where our clients currently live and um here is the property in the tax map in relationship to other properties so as you could see it's located on the corner but it's also kind of facing Mount Lucas and perpendicular to Valley road so it creates kind of an interesting Corner situation um which is really best described in this view where if you could see because of the let me go back so because the homes on Valley Road are set back on their properties what happens is the prevailing setback which is determined by all these properties that are oriented the other way it effectively creates a very large prevailing front yard which is shown right here in red which is 63 feet while the entire property is 75 ft so there's really the rear yard and the front yard actually overlap so there's not anywhere on this property that one could build without a variant so this is why we're explaining how this is kind of a unusual and difficult situation and because of the other Street facing even this way there's also prevailing front yard on Mount Lucas which kind of creates this basically a property where the rear yards and the front yards overlap so there's sort of negative building area um just to give you a few few other images from the street so this is the Mount Lucas side if you remember that's the Valley Road um building over there and then this is from the property looking at the municipal building and this is across the street and the reason um I'm showing these neighboring buildings is to tell you that this property is sort of on the juncture of Residential Properties on Valley Road transitioning to more municipal buildings where we drew inspiration for the architecture of the building based on kind of this transitioning from the more single family residential to the more Municipal context and this last but not least this is the view as you're walking on Valley Road and notice this um funny situation with the sidewalk just so everybody's aware so originally There Were Trees over here when the Valley Road sideb was put in and the sidewalk kind of weird to kind of like went around the trees but the trees have since died and the municipality cut them down and what we're proposing as part of our application is actually straightening um the sidewalk back to where it would have been if there were no trees and then there would be a green space between this property and Valley Road to make it safer for pedestrians and bicyclists um to get to school pool Municipal complex okay so hopefully I got everybody oriented um so now I'm going to so this is part of our previous um presentation so I will open our new presentation here we go hopefully everybody can see this these previous slides that mrina just reviewed you want this all one exhibit or are we going to have two separate exhibits because I see mbina is moving on now to some other slides um so yeah the the slides that Marina was previously showing we can have that as um applicant one um okay and this new slide deck can be applicant to thank you okay so this is actually a slightly easier way to explain the same situation so this shows you the 63 ft from Valley Road and the 35 ft from Mount Lucas so in our as you can see the previous layout um we had um the Adu was located in the corner and the main house was located approximately where the existing house is right now and when we um came to the board we established that although all of the bulk requirements of the buildings themselves were conforming the fact that they were located in this way created the fact that if you were standing on Mount Lucas technically the Adu was in front of the main house even though if you stood on Valley Road the house was in front um so we understood the suggestion from both the zoning officer and the municipal U oh sorry the zoning board that we should reverse which is what we did so here we are so um what we did the house is the same still conforming everything complies um the Adu would be located approximately where existing home is right now and we're compliant with if you're stand on Valley rout so see this dark line by the way is the new straighten out sidewalk so there would be green space sidewalk sort of more normal condition as it is on Valley Road so if you were to stand on Valley Road the house is forward the Adu is set back to meet the requirements if you stand on Mount Lucas the house is forward they do said back this blue rectangle shows approximately where um the existing house is located now so the hope would be this is for um the phasing of this what we were discussing so the um owners would like to continue living in their existing home outlined here in blue have the house constructed then demolish the existing home and then complete the rest of the project where the driveway the garage all of that would be happening and Possible only after the house was um demolished and if I'm missing anything hopefully my teammates will remind me if I skipped anything or missed anything but I think I pretty much explained that um so then to go back so this is a copy of Derek's memo so as you can see um highlighted here in green are the portions of the um the variances that are related to the property itself that's just the property itself um these highlighted in yellow here they're all front yard setbacks and see they're all due to the 63 foot prevailing situation that um causes us that entire property is within the front yard setback um and then driveway width is the last one so these are the ones that we're eliminating by reversing the location and the driveway width as Derek explained it allows us to turn around and exit um onto Valley Road facing forward so that people don't need to um exit on Valley Road backwards which is a little uncomfortable close to the um close to the corner so this is the new um from Derek's last memo so we eliminated those um the on that were crossed out and red uh yeah so here we go again right so house over here am I going backwards or am I going forwards I think I'm okay uh so here we have the house located towards the corner the Adu um approximately where the existing home used to be okay so this would be the view from the top um as you could see the the proposed main house would be located um closer to the corner with the required um facing the street providing a pedestrian way to enter and then if you remember the Adu is not allowed to have a door face the street so in order for this application to be um compliant we had to do a mirror image of the Adu so the size of the U didn't change but originally we had the door of the Adu face mount Lucas but since we can't do that we reversed it so now um Adu is not facing the same orientation as the house to comply with the neighborhood uh no with the Adu Adu ordinance and um here are the floor plans so um nothing changed in the house floor plans um the house has a little porch at the front and as you enter um main stair pretty much open ground floor space three bedrooms um and a kind of a playroom in the Attic everything's fully conforming and then as I was explaining the Adu door is facing that would be East right so it's not facing the street um as per the Adu ordinance um also compliant so it's clouded here because it's a mirror image and here we have a view of the 3D model um hopefully showing that um what it looks like uh oh yeah right so you could see the door here for the main house and then the next image oh no what I do here we go next image so this is the door to the Adu um it still has a walkway and you can figure out where the door is but it's facing the side that is it is required uh did I miss anything do I need to explain more how am I doing maybe questions I I think you've sumarized this well Marina I have a question should I stop sharing well it's up to you you want why don't you finish your presentation and then we'll I I think I a good stopping point happy to answer questions and in case I need to bring anything back I could um open the correct file well I have a question um absolutely so the the applicant is going to live in the house while the while the new house on the corner is being constructed and then upon completion of that he's going to demo the existing house and then go on and build the Adu how's the parking going to work because right now right now you're showing the parking where the house is the existing house correct so um you're making a very good point um so right now they will their parking is east of the existing home so they could live in the house Park East of the existing home while the construction is going on when that is done they will have to bark somewhere else friend's house or something during the demolition for a short period of time they could be living in the house but the where the current house and parking is there's going to be a construction site so they will have to figure out um literally go park at a friend's house um because there will be a construction site on the side of their house okay so where are they going to park they're not going to park on site uh let me open the plan and see if we could figure out where there would be a possibility for them to park is there parking on the other side of Valley Road no it's Municipal um Municipal vehicle parking Municipal cars on that yeah so uh let's see so if if they demolish the house oh you know what actually uh I take it back because their existing parking is right here so it is possible for them to to do to continue parking right here on the side of their existing house while all of this is going on well all of that is the demo of the existing house and the construction there's going to be a period of time when you take the house out and you're grading and you're you know you're starting just there's going to be some interruption in the parking and so I think it's just and unfortunately there's no street parking anywhere so they'll have to park offsite somewhere I think we can um ask them but I suspect they will try to find Arrangements um elsewhere in town yeah okay I think that um there is a um Municipal garage of worst gased Mars that's that's way way far away right there's the Princeton shopping center which is not that far away well it's closer than the municipal garage yeah but it's a concern because it looks like you're gonna have to figure out where to park somewhere on site it's going to get a little tricky um I confirmation from the applicant that he understands that there might be a short period of time where he needs to park off site and that's that's not going to be issue um fortunately it looks like where the parking is this should be a relatively shortterm issue um yeah it's not going to be that long I just you know a concern that that's a good question I have a quick question because I don't remember what's the setback for the garage to the um backyard I mean I see it's six feet but what's the regulation on that five thank you and while we're talking about setback um I I recognize that prevailing on Valley is excessive um to say the least and um but you've got you've gone completely the other way and have a very minimal setback on both Mount Lucas and um and Valley Road um I mean 15 ft is awfully close is there a reason that that you chose to put it that close I mean you had you had the house and the Adu separated by the parking um and now you've basically just left the right hand portion of the composition You' flipped it and had the Adu on the right um but you really pushed the house very close to the corner I mean in my opinion too close I can walk you through the logic um so in order to if you remember to have the Adu said back um from the main house if you're standing on Valley Road so we start with the Adu and we need to be have the house the house is not allowed to be in line with the Adu the Adu has to be in the back so if we kind of work backwards from the backyard we have Adu and then the house needs to move forward to be in front of it to comply um with the setback um for the Adu to be behind the main house um another reason is if you remember it's kind of an interesting transition between um kind of the um Residential Properties and the um more Municipal properties and it felt like it wouldn't be such a strange thing because for example the um first aid and rescue is very close to that same setback so we felt that on one hand setting it back 15 ft allows us to create a compliant Adu situation but it also creates kind of an a corner at that location that makes sense in relationship to the parar building um and then yeah yeah no go ahead please I'm sorry no no go ahead no finish so and then the other thought is if we were to um if we were to think of this property as having one front right then the setbacks would be 15 feet on both sides so we kind of thought that within that logic if for example if this was the front this would be 15 ft this would be 15 ft it seemed to be logical that way and and Marina one other thing just it's we're not 15 feet from the street uh curric I'm wrong but isn't there an additional 15 foot right of way um that yes you're absolutely right so there is actually a really big portion of the sidewalk so it's not that um so it will be Street there's be a substantial green strip sidewalk a little bit of Municipal property and then 15 feet yes you're right thank you for clarifying that well the only other comment is by pushing the house towards Mount Lucas and looking at the upper right hand corner of your slide the adjacent house get buried behind the new house in the garage is that right yeah there's a house back there right right behind you on the adjacent lot on the right there sorry on this guy on Mount Lucas yes right so that house back there um is pretty much invisible from the street it has some very very very Lush Landscaping yes okay all right thanks um so should I continue sharing should I point to something else does anybody else have any other I'm happy to point to other things clarify other things if anybody has any questions comments ideas just Marina just real quickly if you don't mind if you pull up the just as it relates to the proximity to the house directly in the rear of this if you could pull up the last slide um because I do want to point out the board that the the proposed Adu is actually further away from the rear property line uh than the current existing primary residents yes yes I will we're actually improving the distance from the the neighboring rear property absolutely and I think Bernice had a question is that right I I did if you're going to pull up that um the slide with the site plan um highlighted in yellow we can I can ask that yes absolutely yes so I think what John was saying is that currently the existing home is really close to the property line and as Derek mentioned it's non-conforming to its rear setback and um it will be um conforming Adu in its um new proposed location but bren's um happy to try to answer your question yeah it was just a comment related to the condensing units for the main house since um since Valley is is a front as well um my thought was that you know could those be pushed back or stacked in a way that you don't see the two side by side that they'd be one on top of another um I think that could be done we also I'm not sure in the correct file I was hoping that we would have a fence there that would hide it so let me share the other file in that way but you're absolutely right it's a busy intersection um you know you don't want to see things from the street so the hope would be if they would be here and Valley Road is kind of the more loud and active part of the site so if all that could stay towards Valley Road then behind the fence there would be some um privacy and quiet space for the occupants that would be IDE deal but if you feel that it would be better if they were perpendicular to Valley Road I don't see a big problem with that okay yeah with the with the fencing I I had been focusing on the the plan view but this uh this helps yeah wonderful and any any other things I can clarify for anybody I have one more comment so the the Adu is now further away from that rear yard in the adjacent house but the garage at 6 feet is significantly closer than the structure was before that that is true yes so again the reason for that is twofold um and I can try to pull up the plan one more time um so we didn't um the hope there is we need to stay the garage needs to be behind the house so in order for if we were to pull it Forward um it would be a variance issue so we have to start with a garage and then the house so you see there's the house and there's the garage and then the other portion of this is creating this space over here lets us turn around and back out to kind of have enough room to do this whole maneuver um I think we could have pulled it up a little bit but then we would run into an issue of the conflict that the garage is not behind the house so it's a balancing act okay thank you board members any other questions of the arit and um yeah the garage is quite low in the back right I see it's 132 in the front but it must be yeah fairly low it's a on story very low structure absolutely thank you for pointing that out yes very good point any other questions of the architect okay please move on all right thank you so much okay so we have no further questions from the for Marina I'll Now call Jim kamik our our professional player do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful yes I do thank you all right uh good good evening uh could you give please give the the board the benefit of your credentials and background sure Mr kamik has testified before us on a number of occasions we would accept him as an expert in this Feld Mr Cohen just a question Mr tamik are you testifying as an engineer tonight or a planner or both uh the intention is to address the planning but certainly if there's an engineering issue that comes up I'm happy to answer but I am Li duly licensed in both and have been qualified as both but the focus here tonight really is to hit on the planning okay thank you okay uh thank you Mr Kik um so just starting off as you've heard this evening there there's a number of variances at issue with with this application uh but if you just give the the board your opinion for why uh why they're appropriate to be granted in this instance sure um there are a few points I'd like to hit and I I'm going to try to do this as expeditiously as possible I know there are a few other applications here on the agenda tonight um perhaps the one that's most obvious and simple would be the D1 variance from more than one principal dwelling on the lot and we really see this as administrative in nature uh again it's temporary and it's a condition of making sure that the existing principal dwelling can be torn down and demoed um the applicant has indicated that certainly they would agree to a necessary condition associated with that uh and this Arrangement would not result in a condition where there would be two principal dwellings in conflict with the ordinance which would support what the ordinance is driving for um so we would conclude that there's no there's no permanent uh situation with two principal dwelling and no impairment uh of the Zone plan and certainly no substantial detriment to the public good because it would be inherently demoed uh with that condition that we had previously discussed um and we also indicate that this slot is particularly suited for that condition because of the location of the multiple residential buildings on the property it enables this cohabitation on a temporary basis um so so we would see that that would be reasonable and appropriate here in this case for reconstruction on the lot um the additional ordinance here that we were discussing was the driveway with ordinance 10B 25.2 to facilitate um a turnaround movement for erass onto Valley Road my opinion is that this is reasonable and appropriate from a safety and traffic flow standpoint it is supported by engineering staff as Mr Bridger had indicated it will increase safety in the neighborhood from a traffic standpoint and from the positive criteria it does support zoning purpose H to promote the free flow of traffic um and we would conclude that there's no substantial detriment uh to this particular condition it would actually be adding and increasing the safety uh of the immediate neighborhood specifically accessing this property relative to the uh variances associated with the lot as previously shown on the exhibit um we do have a unique um and exceptional condition here in this case um and in this case the the applicant really is proposing uh a rather modest main dwelling at 1900 square feet as a single family dwelling and a moderately sized Adu at 770 Square ft uh plus the accessory um garage at 300 Square F feet the variance is requested relative to the lot number one address lot area where in this case the lot is just slightly under the standard of 10,890 square feet where the area provided is 10,424 and that's basically 96% of the required lot area in the zone so it is slightly less than the standard um but it does have substantial area in our opinion to suit the proposed structures that are proposed on the plan um also this lot overall is generally even though it's slightly substandard from a lot area standpoint it's generally in keeping with the neighborhood where the lot areas range from about 0.26 acres to 0. 31 Acres on Valley Road and 0 22 acres to 4.3 Acres on on ter hu so this lot is on the lower end of the range um but overall our view is that uh at the end of the project and should this be approved we'll still see this site in keeping with the overall context of the general neighborhood um the lot area as previously testified to uh the the lot depth in particular the required of 80 5 ft and here we have 75 ft uh because we have the orientation it's basically parallel to Valley Road and we have two front yards uh and two front property lines uh in this case and if we were able to sort of pick a front yard as Marina testified to and and work with that and then have the sides be appropriate for the 15 foot setbacks uh we would be in a better condition with less variances but that's just not the case for this particular property um and we were definitely dealing with a particular uh unique situation with the way that this lot is configured and oriented so with respect to those conditions relative to the lot um I did want to note that the previously requested variances were eliminated the F variance was eliminated as well as um two other variances associated with the garage and the location of the accessory structures so here the the single most driving physical constraint is the prevailing setback of 63 feet and as that document indicated you B you couldn't really construct any building that would be fully conforming anything on this lot would require a variance so in this C1 context from a hardship um standpoint it is clear from our view that by reason of exceptional physical features uh in this case the shape and the effect of the prevailing setback uh uniquely affects this specific property and the strict application of the lot area and lot depth and front yard setback zoning regulations would result in Peculiar and exceptional practical difficulties and undue hardship on the owner uh which would be required for any dwelling on this SL and in this case the variances if Grant Ed would relieve that hardship for the property owner um again this is unique to this lot and it's not a condition that's uh prevalent throughout the whole neighborhood we're really just dealing with this unique condition in terms of the front yard setbacks uh it was alluded to in the testimony but i' just like to clarify that three of the front yard setback variance requests are due to the fact that there are three proposed structures on the property the main dwelling the uh accessory dwelling unit as well as the garage so if we were talking about variances in general front setback variance would be required but it's it's basically tripled in this case from a variant standpoint because we have those three structures and the way that they're oriented uh on the property the front yard set back of 35 fet uh where 15 feet is proposed testimony was given at the hearing uh just previously on Mount Lucas and we note that that front yard is already in the front yard setback of the prevailing 63 foot on Valley Road uh number one secondly we're Max we're able to maximize the distance of the proposed driveway in the parking area away from the corner um with the main dwelling unit being a little bit closer to the corner and then we previously indicated that the actual setback from Mount Lucas to the building is approximately 30 feet uh with 15 feet on the property which would be similar to the context of a sidey yard if it wasn't interpreted that way so if we consider these all together from a standing a planning standpoint in terms of the the positive criteria uh we feel like we meet the positive criteria relative to those um lot variances from the C1 hardship condition but we also feel that it's supported by several purposes of zoning which add to the positive criteria um purpose C providing adequate air light and open space by Distributing the building elements and building Mass across the lot as opposed to concentrating them in a larger building in one single footprint additional purpose eye in the same regard adapting the residential elements to the constraints of the lot which we feel that we have done with this revised plan does provide a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design Arrangements uh again including Distributing this building Mass locating the parking between both buildings which also facilitates the Ingress and egress of the lot enables a turnaround area and maintains a modest amount of floor area for each dwelling at 1900 square fet and 770 Square ft respectively uh we feel that the design is in harmony with the surrounding uses noting the fact that it's in a transitional area from the residential um subdivisions of Valley and turun and also the municipal areas excuse me looks like Jim's having a bit of a technical diffic difficulty sorry about that guys everybody just got home tonight and the dog went crazy so um but again I was just commenting that we're at this transitional area you saw the photos across from the municipal building across from um the rescue squad Etc and we feel that the design is appropriate and we and fit well with that it's a Well Suited infill development which is purpose J uh and it minimizes uh creeping of suburban sprawl and degradation of the environment because we are utilizing an existing property with infi development um we also feel that uh purpose G providing sufficient space for a variety of residential uses in appropriate locations to meet the needs of all new Jersey citizens according to their respective environmental requirements were several blocks from Princeton shopping center which is at the end of Valley Road and in proximity um via walking and biking to retail stores and employment and then we're also in a walkable location along the Witherspoon Street Corridor in order for uh folks to get downtown so from the positive criteria we we feel like we do support um the overall Municipal intent from the negative criteria that these variances would not cause a substantial detriment of the public good or the Zone plan um we just knowe that these residential uses both the single family dwelling and the Adu are in fact permitted uses in the zone and would be in keeping with the general residential nature of the neighborhood the visual appearance of the lot will not result in a substantial visual detriment and actually to the contrary uh a rather rundown property that has existed for several decades um on one of the entry corridors into town and across from the municipal building and other services will be revitalized as you could see from uh the slides of the proposed condition and result in a substantial aesthetic Improvement at this location the design is in keeping with the surrounding area uh as we previously mentioned we also note that what's proposed on the plan um in the inclusion of the Adu U does support several per components within the municipal master plan um and and and we would conclude that we don't have a substantial detriment via the inclusion of the Adu on the lot and specifically land use goal number three on page 19 of the master plan to remove barriers to increase density in this case to add 1 edu uh affordability and various housing types of Greater varieties to fit into a spectrum of household sizes uh we feel that that goal would be supported and on page 33 of 237 uh it indicates in the master plan to examine Adu requirements to encourage and broaden their development um not necessarily um make it more strict and constraining but um make them more achievable in different areas of the town so all in all on balance I would say that the variances requested tonight U mostly relate to the actual physical lot in question the geometric configuration the constraints of the prevailing setbacks as well as the slightly undersized nature of the lot uh variances which necessarily would be required for any development on the property um and then the additional you know benefit of uh expanding the the driveway access with the setback variant so on balance we feel that the positives would outweigh the detriments in this particular case uh if these variances were granted thank you Jim uh does anyone on the board have any uh any questions I have one um Jim the again I'm getting back to the setbacks because the the 15 feet really is I think is not enough but the the the critical one by by putting the house 15 feet back from Mount Lucas you really when you look at it in plan you really bury that next house I mean it really it creates in my opinion a very awkward situation because you're so far in front of it and and uh and you've also then by possibly moving it over a little bit you know you can increase your side yard there you've got a wall in there to create an outdoor area but then you've got an open area adjacent to the parking so I'm just do you think that that 15 ft is reason reasonable given what trying to create well I do believe that it does increase I think it's 15 feet at the closest point uh and Marina might be able to show that slide if she wanted to share it but it does increase as you get as you go across that facade and then I would say that my recollection of the conditions out there is that when you are in front of the Rescue Squad and I'm just trying to pull up if I am standing in front of the lot in question um perhaps I can share my screen um Jim would you like to share your screen or should I yeah let me share my screen if that's okay let me just see if I can do this because I think this might help and you write the property line is not parallel to the building so it's 15 something at that one spot right and I'm going to share share screen I just want to tell me when you guys can see that not yet not yet okay I'm out front right in front of the lot in question the adjacent lot that we're talking about and it is Jim it's not showing up yet let me it says double click to enter full screen mode is that just me no that's what it says my screen is frozen unfortunately I'd be happy to share for you what like I'm just I'm in Google or Google I'm Google Earth street view just looking at the front of the property and we have about a 15 to 16 foot vegetative mass that is impossible to see through there's so much screening at that location that all you can see is the if you could stop sharing then or is your screen Frozen everything is frozen unfortunately yikes um um Claudia you might be a maybe Claudia can release me I'm sorry about that thanks you want to try again how's that Jim is oh no everything's frozen but if you guys can hear me I think what I'm going to do is shut my machine down Marina I'll let you show that street view in order to answer Steve's question yeah um so hopefully everybody could see here right um there's one spot where we would be 15 ft from the property line but it would be just that one spot and then the home or an adjacent property is really completely hidden apart from this driveway location um does that help Orient everybody yes and then I I can go back to the plan um if that would be helpful and show that um it's at that one little point and and then everywhere else it's in the front it's 23 ft and in addition to that the portion that's outside the property line uh let me find the correct file to share share screen hello there we are yes okay so as you could see this is 23t 4 in and then um this is at this last moment and then there's basically open space after that and just Marina the the 15 feet at the closest location that's just to the property line and even along Mount Lucas is another 15 feet correct I have a quick question do you know the uh square footage of the existing building you said the new one would be 1,00 square feet if you knew what they that's a good question um I have the tax record somewhere I will be able to find that in a minute bear with me uh yes so according to the tax records uh it's 1216 square feet and then there is a uh detached garage as well okay thank you yeah I that's what the tax record says I can't tell you if it's precise but but it is a twostory building right correct I think from my standpoint I think you clarified the setback on Mount Lucas thank you hopefully that technical difficulty wasn't too confusing all right board members are there any other questions of Mr Cal Che Michael um no I believe I understand it and um you know I I think um the house behind I I think because it is set back off of Mount Lucas itself um is is more closely in line with the garage which is a smaller building and and so it's it's not so um kind of uh overwhelmed um it's it's definitely not in my opinion not impacted as far as overwhelmed by the the main house because it's not in line with the main house according to the pictures on my phone thank you thank you go no go ahead no I I'll please finish and then we'll move on no I really don't have any any questions um anything would be for discussion among board members but um maybe one question um you know on the setback off of U Mount Lucas or uh Valley I was I was thinking about if you go up Witherspoon um to pass ktis you know those houses are set back you know between go g and and Henry and it it's quite similar if I'm remembering correctly so with um with the 15 feet you know if I'm not remembering correctly uh then someone can say that no I think you are those houses are set back from the street not significant you know the very minimal yeah yeah um I realize we're supposed to deal with the zone that this lot is in but as I think people have said it's such an unusual Zone and this lot is shaped uh even it's all even though it's only 4% less area you know it's how it's shaped and it's on the corner but i' look forward to hearing from any residents and neighbors all right um board members if there are no other questions please applicant please continue if if the board has uh has no further questions um the the applicant um will conclude their presentation okay if there are no other questions then uh we'll open this up to the public but uh we can hear from the applicant one more time before we do open it to the public okay all right so at this time we're going to open it up to the public anybody who has a comment relative to this application um please indicate that by raising your hands on the lower portion of the the screen there's a button Floria have you gotten an indication anyone wants to speak on behalf of this application yes I'm trying to move them over one second please okay maybe you can Elevate someone Mr rounds Steven BRS M you're muted how's that can you hear me I can Mr tell the truth yes that that's fine and if you're comfortable identifying your address please do so yeah 11 11 tun Road 11 tun Road all right thank you very much uh approximately three and a half minutes ago I walked down and took a measurement I'm sorry did you get sworn in he yeah he's sworn Sor okay sorry I promise to tell the truth um a pro uh about three and a half minutes ago I took a break and walked down to the sidewalk uh and you said it's 15 feet setback to the sidewalk and then another 15 feet uh the other 15 feet you mentioned is not 15 feet it's a six foot wide sidewalk in a foot and a half green space so a total of seven and a half feet as opposed to 15 feet so which goes more to Mr Cohen's point that uh it's not a really large setback let's put it that way so uh you may want to U whoever uh has the measuring tape might want to go out there and check it again I'd be happy to clarify that sure um so maybe was confusing what we explained but um it goes the roadway yes then there's a green strip yeah then there's the sidewalk corre and then there's space and then there's the property line which it's not visible in reality so you can't really measure that and I just measured in our survey that was prepared by licensed surveyor and it's 16 feet well then to the property line so there's a municiple space you're talking to come out between the sidewalk and that 15 fet and what is that so overall from the building from the road where the curb is to where the property line is is 16 feet on the mount Lucas side from that 16 feet you measure again another 15 feet 2 Ines so it is really difficult to measure to the property line because there no visual like this it's not a line that exists it's not the edge of the sidewalk it's just an abstract ra line that exists in the deed unfortunately okay uh seeing that we're talking abstractions um I would follow up uh with agreement both uh my wife and I uh agreeing that the setback is still not that big I mean if it's 15 feet it will swallow up the other house um which goes to the point which hasn't bring o of again which was brought up last time at February's meeting was why two buildings you know uh so that was brought up before hasn't been brought up tonight I didn't know if the uh board members wanted to bring that up um feel free to and I'm I'm Dale rounds you can swear me in as well all right M rounds do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful I do thank you thank you yeah so I just want to speak that um that that the applicants have done a very good job of focusing our attention on our camera lens on the municipal buildings rather than turning it around and focusing it on the actual neighborhood and this is not a municipal lot it is a neighborhood lot and is a lot for a single family home in a neighborhood of single family homes and admittedly the applicant has said that the lot is too small to comply uh with the current zoning and so I'm having been difficult ulty understanding why the answer to that is two units instead of one um one building could very easily um be built on that law and comply with the current setback of the current building and comply with the 35 foot setback from Mount Lucas such a building would be in keeping actually truly in keeping with the neighborhood and would not swallow up number nine Mount Lucas road which is I think is a problem um that this house is just going to dwarf that property and uh someone else comes along someday to buy that property and they want to do something so they cut down the bushes and now of a sudden they've got their neighbors breathing down their neck I think it's problematic um if if the owners really wanted to have a multi-generational two generational household then they should buy a piece of property that's bigger and can accommodate uh to two units um I just I feel like this is disingenuous um and and uh not is it is it is not a municipal lot it is a residential lot for one home and that's what we have here is single single homes so that's what I have to say and as far as um you know the the detriment or what what is good or bad about it I mean good I'd I'd like to see some something new there I think that's lovely I'd like to see somebody move in and actually live there and not put two units and maybe Airbnb the second one um and I think uh the it's too dense we don't need more density here these two streets um Valley Road and tune have not yet um felt the impact of all the development down the street at the shopping center all of those cars are going to come down these streets to get to 206 and I think it's absurd to take this already busy corner and put two units on that corner make the driveway bigger lovely that you have a turnaround but it's still going to be a disaster there's too many cars and too many people so thank you thank you for your comments uh Claudia anyone else indicated they'd like to speak yes um sir Dennis um you mute it I am muted no longer thank you Mr Shell we need to swear you in and if you're comfortable would you also give us your address yes I swear to tell the truth I at eight Turner Court Princeton thank you very much yeah as a as a local resident um I took a look at the the plans and I walked around that corner uh this afternoon just to kind of get a feel for where everything was and I got to Echo the rounds and and think about this for a second we have a property that is very oddly shaped oh I'm I'm sympathetic to that if you know where eight Turner court is I'm on a pie-shaped lot at the corner of Turner and turun and I have uh .23 Acres which puts me under that 0.25 Acres so that I get it it's an odd shaped lot you will never put a house on there that satisfies the 65 foot or whatever it was 63t setback from Valley but you don't need to go if you've got a lot that is too small too oddly positioned to support any new construction of just a single house why would you put two there that doesn't make sense why would you put three Bill there was there was a comment that was made um that the three of the setback V uh uh variances are required because of there's three buildings well why put three buildings there that doesn't make sense a single family house that has sufficient setback on Mount Lucas a decent backyard yeah you're going to have to grant that front yard Varian on Valley there's no way around that would be perfectly in keeping with the neighborhood and all of the the surrounding area um and and seriously if you want to stand on the corner of Valley and mount Lucas during the day and hear the traffic going by some somebody mentioned that Valley had more traffic than Mount Lucas no way but there's a lot of traffic there why would you want to stick your house 15 feet okay 30 feet from the actual side of the roadway when you could have a little bit more setback and have a little more privacy you know just just silence in your home it it it really doesn't make sense to me the last thing I want to mention is there are a lot of talk about aesthetic Improvement and I will definitely say that constructing a new dwelling on that lot is going to give you aesthetic Improvement the the existing hous is not ideal a new home certainly would be a great benefit but slapping uh something there was discussion about how the design of the home was was to blend in with the area as in the Valley Road School across the street the municipal complex the first aid Rescue Squad well that's not residential that's industrial a residential dwelling it and it sticks in an area of all residentially styled houses it makes no sense so I I'm not gonna I I'm not qualified and I'm not going to step out and say certain designs are unacceptable because that's not the job of the zoning board job of the zoning board is to make sure that the existing properties that are built are in line with the neighborhood I know that adus are sexy and they're actually not a bad idea but they don't have to go everywhere and this lot is not the right place for them thank you thank you very much for your comment Bia is there anybody else that's indicated they'd like to speak there are no hands okay all right we'll give it a couple of seconds here all right hearing uh no one else who'd like to comment we'll close the public portion of the hearing and um before we move on uh to the to Executive session would you like to make any closing comments yes thank you Mr chairman uh so just to address a few of the comments uh that the that the public raised um first as it relates to a concern about the the Adu potentially be utilized as a as an Airbnb or or similar short-term rental um that that is certainly not my client's intention um and if the board desired we'd be willing to insert a condition condition and the approval um that the Adu is not to be used as a short-term rental such as an airbn um so if we can address I Believe Miss round's concern um in that way U we'd be happy to do so um as it relates to the sidey setbacks um and the idea of having two buildings rather than one um I I believe during uh Jim planning testimony um it was actually one of the benefits of this property that the the buildings are more spread out one um but two um and Marina you can jump in here as well I I do believe we can shift the the new main house um a little bit further east am I correct in that Marina um so we we can we can work with with that as well um to give a little bit more buffer uh between Mount Lucas Road and the the proposed new M Welling um yes I'm I'm happy to chime in as well if um I guess it'll probably be easiest for me to share screen one more time um um sorry about that oh my goodness let me try that again sorry not working okay uh where's the share screen there we go okay yes here we are so um this map over here see if I could zoom in um shows that um interestingly enough as you could see so the the lots are oriented towards Valley Road and create a certain Rhythm and at this corner um an additional benefit to having um a smaller Adu and a smaller house rather than one combined larger structure I believe is that if you could see this is 85 and this is 150 it effectively breaks it down along a similar rhythm of Valley Road and because this lot is sort of sideways towards Valley Road it allows us create buildings that show their kind of narrow portion that way so it reinforces that Rhythm and is that transitions from single family residential area towards the more Municipal it creates that pivot point where it sort of continues the Rhythm from one side continue the Rhythm from the other side and create a corner element that we believe is really going to improve that location um and then one comment was um if everybody feels really strongly that this is not enough so this is what I was explaining to clarify so when the gentleman mentioned that he went and measured so when you're standing there you could see there's a grain strip then there's the sidewalk and then there's no way to see where the property line in reality is so the property line exists so I measured on the survey this is 16 ft so if everybody feels really strongly that this is not enough we could move it East a little bit if if we feel that this is important um to create a little bit more of a buffer zone um I can't think that would be so terribly detrimental we would be making a little more impervious coverage but I don't think we're in any tight point on that so I don't think that that's a big issue so if the boort felt that you know it would be better to move it a little bit east I don't I don't expect that to be that detrimental unless anybody you know if you have a feeling on that I have a question about the parking uh so is this intended to park uh three cars out front and one in the garage go ahead that's a good question so the Adu is required to have one parking space and the house is required to have two parking spaces so um the idea was to now allow enough clearance so people could get in and out without having to have tandem parking for the main house got it okay but if if if that helps to tighten up and shift the the house East uh paring right so then it would be tandem parking so that one person would have to pull out and the other person would have to pull out it's just sort of turning around getting on Valley Road is possible and could be done so if we feel that that that would be helpful we could probably do that we just need to make sure that the Adu has its own parking spot allocated for them yeah right okay yeah but that might help to kind of De to to to tighten things up a bit and address concerns about the I mean we would have to check with our clients but I believe that um I believe that's doable but I I think should keep in mind that that 15 foot is just is one point you know and that there's a much you know and now that it's been clarified which I I'm glad to hear that that it's sort of double that at that narrowest point to to from that point to the street and that it's only there's only more as you get farther towards Valley Road yes that that's a really good point Thank you for right 23 plus 16 sorry right I would just feel like that's um it's I I I don't that doesn't bother me I I think that that's you know it it's a lot more than it's that one point that is is the closest but um it's still double 15 actually from that Point as you say so okay um go ahead please Micha I have a question I guess I'm I'm not seeing moving it a little bit the impact of tightening up I don't I don't see it substantial at all is one thing if if you can explain again what you're seeing um Miss rabina and also the the statement about the rhythm of the three buildings being similar to the Rhythm down Valley Road I don't I don't think since all of Valley fronting on Valley Road is basically Green Space because of this crazy six not crazy but 65 foot setback there's I I don't see and maybe somebody can explain it to me um anything that can be done on that lot that is similar to the rest of Alley Road I would agree with you Michael so to say that is it's just I just I just can't buy it I I understand your point the point I'm trying to make is that there's a certain width as it repeats Valley Road of 85 ft and our is close to twice as wide which creates a very different configuration but you're making a really good point because the buildings are set back quite a bit on this particular property there's no where at all one could be set back that far yeah okay so I think what you were saying is um Marina is that you're there's nothing you can do to replicate how far back the houses are but you can kind of mirror the the distance between houses correct in the front as you go along Valley Road exactly yes thank you for making it so much more clear which still may be totally irrelevant because we trying our best it's it's vacant Green Space that you're comparing it to you don't you don't see fences you don't see lot lines yes those are pure theor iCal property lines that exist in theory yes yeah it's it's Bo members any other questions or comments you know I have one I guess it's in our first hearing we did talk about uh and um one of the neighbors brought it up this evening the idea of one one structure rather than two structures um again it's a very small lot one structure would minimize I would think the visual impact on the street and um allow for a more unified Green Space because now you've got a small walled area between Mount Lucas and the house and then a an open space between the main house and the parking lot or the parking area and then the house the Adu is right up against that and then a green space on the other side so you've got number of different separations there and maybe maybe just one structure would be a better composition and a better solution for this very narrow lot just a thought it was brought up at the first hearing also I believe um I can try to um address it so to me it seemed that um creating be because the lot is oriented perpendicular to Valley Road that you will have effectively a long building parallel to Valley Road which does not seem in keeping um so actually breaking it up it allows to maintain allthough be abstract but that kind of 80 foot rhythm going along on both sides right so that it's short side facing Mount Lucas and short side facing Valley Road rather than longside facing Valley Road so to me it seemed more appropriate to do it that way um but again that's my opinion on on the proping and you are the architect of the project so that's fine okay um any other discussions of the project board members okay so I guess we've got everything we need um so we can discuss it further or if someone would like to make a motion we can entertain that I'd like to discussion are we in executive session now we are yes I was making notes while we were talking and you know this is the lot is slightly less than a24 Acres as far as I can tell and I have driving around town and looking at some of the other projects we've approved and look at plans and then looked at how they actually turn out I'm always sort of overwhelmed by how much bigger the actual project looks does and you just kind of lay it out on a plan like this and the notes I made I'm I was curious we got into the further discussion because you do make a good argument about any building would require a variance um I don't see I really don't understand how three buildings or two buildings plus a garage make make it better I really you know it that's a small lot there's no way around it it doesn't does require varant do not understand how having an auxiliary unit on that property is good I also in looking at the design plans I very strongly felt that design I I find the design to be interesting but it's it is mirroring the institutional surroundings and not the residential surroundings and I don't I really you know you're looking at a length of that street is residential but you're going to start it off with another institutional building that looks like fire fire building or and not so I don't I don't like these plans and I I don't I don't think they justify a variance in my mind so I feel about I made some notes too while while this was going on and I one of the things I heard um several people say is that it's too small for this is too small for two houses but it's not two houses it's a house with an Adu and an Adu is a little different it's a different animal in a way it's not and and it also is smaller um but it's it's allowed I don't think that anything that we I correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that anything that we're talking about here is um any of the variances have to do with making it possible for that Adu to be there because that's that is allowed um so I actually think this is a I actually think this is a really great plan I think that that the architect went back and took things that we said seriously and change things pretty dramatically um I I not sure that it's fair to say that this building now looks institutional because what I think I heard was that it's meant to kind of relate to those other buildings I mean I'd also say that it's not up to us to weigh in on design so I think that a comment was made that there was there's a reference to the other buildings but I I'm not sure this this these buildings don't look like Valley Road to me that valy Road school you know and I think for them to be kind of as they are between really kind of on two both sides relating to institutional buildings but at the at the point of a neighborhood and still obviously a house or hous a house with an Adu and with a small garage I mean I think that's that's a tricky design Pro problem um but I'm I don't know if it's fair to say it now looks like um to me it does not look like um I'd get confused and think I was showing up to pay my taxes if I drove by there well we don't have a um we don't have a design criteria right that relates to uh massing and Aesthetics we have our neighborhood character Orin but it uh it doesn't go to the exterior design material and form no but the applicant did bring it up that it was they did that it was design in that direction which is the only reason why I would even think of that yeah and it's you know really half the applications we get you know the the applicant gives one side of the take on it and as the resident said but they don't compare it to what the houses look like in the neighborhood but I I come to expect that from you know the applicant side they they give the reasons why we should approve and not why we shouldn't and I I've never heard you know heard somebody say my design is totally opposite of what's in the neighborhood so that's what gets said um my initial struggle in the beginning the really beginning the of of the first hearing is wondering should adus be on a corner lot I know adus is something that you know the town has written in ordinance um and it's in play now but I don't know if anybody thought through uh what about a corner lot does that really work um and it's always going to trigger some kind of variance on setback as everybody pretty much agrees so that's that's a problem on the other hand this application is not as for a variance for far f are anymore they could build the same size combined house um you know it's it's a bit of um a bit of a struggle um I think also they haven't violated the height any you know neither F or or they're not so high they need some kind of variance um personally I wish the F ordinance had some kind of limitation on height on the Adu um there is some I've been getting from watching other hearings at the planning board that there seems to be you know you could build a smaller main house and a smaller Adu now I'm not sure that that would satisfy by everyone if even if they were smaller um but adus are you know are are here by ordinance it's just a matter how many variances and um that's where I am I don't know how many variances are too many or if you eliminate the F and you you know uh you meet the height is that okay well I think that's all I'll I'll say at this point but those are some of my thoughts I think this is a better design um than before I think I'll stop there thank you uh any other comments yeah um I I I think this is a very difficult site for a lot of reasons and the fact that it's really all about setbacks and that adus are are permitted and they're within um all the other uh requirements except setbacks um I I think it is an improvement um over what's there and you know there there would be issues with a a single family home and they're within um within what's permissible to to construct the Adu so I I can support it I I think if uh it can be um tightened up by shifting it a bit over uh to increase the 15 fet um uh towards Mount Lucas if that helps for other board members to support it um you know I I I think that's achievable it should be achievable thank you um any other comments you know I I brought up the setback earlier and and again I I think everybody knows how I feel about the 15 feet but quite frankly I do think this is an improvement of the original design personally I would have rather have seen one structure rather than two um but this is what the applicants Chosen and as long as the homeowner is comfortable with it I think it's I do think it's too close but again is Michael brought up in that Rhythm that comes up with a spoon you know again it's it's not totally unrelated um as far as the design goes I don't think really uh we can comment on that that's up again to the architect and the owner so those are my feelings so uh that being said would someone uh like to make a motion I move we reject the application do we have a second for that so what do I do withdraw my motion no it just means your motion fails because we don't have a second so do we have and keep in mind that there are a number of uh Vol variances and then this applicant is also looking for um a d variant temporary I guess measured by the uh condition described in Derek's memo uh but that requires five affirmative votes because that variance is seeking now to allow two principal dwells on the lot which is not a use that is permitted without varing so either you can vote on the bulk variances first and then have a second motion with respect to U the use variance they want which is uh and as Derek described in his memo he's saying that previously I think the board did allow this with the condition that the existing principal dwelling would have to be demolished within 18 months or within 90 days of receipt of a temporary Co for the new residence whichever is first and uh in the previous approval the applicant was required to provide a cost estimate from their engineer for the cost of demolition of the existing re residents to be secured either with a performance bond or a letter of credit uh to be reviewed by the board's land use engineer um Karen what would be the point of separating them because uh in one case you need five affirmative votes each if you don't have five affirmative votes for that use variance then it fails so it's possible that the applicant could get sufficient votes for their bulk variances but they're not going to be able to get five votes for um the use variant so that they can stay in the existing house and build the new one then tear down the existing house and then build their ad so that's why I'm saying that we can we can do it combined but what what may end up happening is that there are negative votes because there are negative votes and there is not enough then for them to get that use VAR and it would appear that I would think the bulk variances are the heart of the application so but but I'm I don't I can't speak for the applicant so if it's also critical that they you know be able to have two principle dwellings for some limited period of time um I don't know if the applicant's attorney wants to speak to that so I I think our preference would be to bate the the vote on this um just to to see if we have the votes for the the D1 and then separately the the votes for the the bulk variances needed for the the balance of the application Mr Mayor you're saying that you want the board to vot vote first with respect to the the um the use fa yes well or we can do the we can do the bulk first if that's the bo the board's preference um Aaron why don't you just summarize the bulk variances I think we know what the used variances okay so the applicant needs variances for lot area but the required is 10,890 Ft they're proposing 10,424 Square ft they need a variance for lot depth they're proposing 75 ft that's 10 feet under what is required they need a front yard setback variance from uh prevailing from Valley Road they're proposing a 15 foot setback for the principal dwelling front yard set back of from for from Valley Road for the Adu they're proposing 22.7 feet for the Adu they need a front yard setback from Mount Lucas Road they are proposing 15 feet for the principal dwelling and they need a front yard setback uh or the prevailing setback from Derek this is Mount Lucas or Val it's Valley my mistake from Valley Road for the garage they are proposing a 49 foot setback and they also need a variance for the driveway width The Zone has a maximum width of 22 feet for the first 75 ft of the lot the applicant is proposing a driveway of 36 feet wide so those are the both variances they so if if the board is amenable to voting first on that and then addressing in a separate motion the um the use variants to allow more than one principal dwelling on the lot for a certain period of time okay um Mr marer do you want to to do that yes Mr chairman okay all right so we'll take um I mean you want to you care which one we do first the bulk variances Mr Sean okay all right um so what do we do on this Karen does somebody have to make a motion so we had a motion to deny which which did not get a second so I'm assuming the next motion is going to be a motion to approve um the bulk variances uh so that would be that would be the the motion motion to approve the requested B varen do we have a motion to approve the bulk variances yeah I'll move to approve the the bulk variances under the C1 okay we have second that okay who's that any Eve sorry Eve seconded yes yes thank you okay any discussion of before we vote okay Gloria can you call a rooll please miss Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr Floy no because it's a corner lot and there's so many variances Mrs Shriver no Mr Stein yes chairman Cohen I'll vote Yes but I I um I am concerned that uh ultimately the uh the awkwardness of the front yard setbacks is uh is going to be objectionable to the homeowner but that's my opinion so but I do vote Yes but for the bulk variances righty well when that motion passes the bulk variances are approved uh now the D variance correct and I'll I'll just note that I know that Derek is indicated that in a previous application the board allowed the period of 18 months or within 90 days of receipt of a temporary Co um it's up to the board time frame you want to fix so it can be 18 months it can be uh less whatever whatever uh however you want to structure it and then uh again the recommendation or or the indication was that in that prior application there's also there would be the obligation to provide a cost estimate for the cost of the demolition uh in the event that the app can did not comply they didn't demolish the existing residents and that would have to be secured with a performance bond for a letter of credit so is that part of a motion Ken or I would yeah I would say that that would be part of the motion that the motion I think the way it could be phrased is that uh you will grant the use variance to allow the two principal dwellings for for the limited time period of um or or put another way it it can be allowed but it would have to be demolished within 18 months um of construction of that new dwelling or within 90 days receipt of a temporary Co for approval of the new re residence whichever is first along with the cost estimate for the cost of Demolition and either performance respond a letter of credit and that form has to be approved by the land use engineer I as I'm saying this I did have one question Derek for you um we're talking about within 18 months of the approval tonight I I think it's fair to uh I mean there's a 45 day appeal period from next month so I would say it's the resolution of approval publication of it 18 months publication okay so it's not it's not 18 months from the completion of the house it's it's the from no no no because keep in mind that yep your the municipal ordinances require that construction be initiated within a year of receiving approval your Varian is if you have a kind of application that requires a construction permit in order to implement your variances then you must begin that get your permits and begin within a year it's true that you can ask for extensions of that but um you know in in this case the applicant is being given longer then because now that makes sense I when I first heard I thought it was 18 months after completion which sounded awfully long and and not reasonable so this makes sense to me what what is what is actually the case I mean I'm not I'm not sure that it was fully articulated why the applicant needs this um and I bring that up only because I'm I I think maybe this only happened once before where this was approved by the board so perhaps it would be helpful just for the applicant's attorney to clarify why they're looking for this Ju Just Just because there may be future applicants who also say I'm interested in this too um so if if the board would hear I'd be happy to give some further Insight on that uh the reason why we're seeking this is that the property right now is my client's primary residence um and it would be a burden on them to find temporary housing uh for the period in which the existing building is be is demolished and the new primary residence is being destructed additionally that they have a mortgage on this property and it would be a violation of the mortgage for there not to be a a dwelling on the on the um on the property um so it would it would create major problems for my client to have nothing but then eventually I guess you're saying they'd have to pay off that mortgage correct they G to demolish the house it either be that or they'd be in default of the mortgage um and the bank could accelerate Jesus Christ so is there any Is there further discussion that the board wants to have on the issue of the uh use variance or if there's no discussion somebody should make a motion then we can discuss the motion I guess yeah I would move to approve this motion as stated by our attorney I'll second it discussion of the motion I wondering what kind of financial burden a bond might place on the applicant if they're I mean I guess that's not up to us right we don't care that's their problem well I mean it doesn't have to be a bond it can be a letter of credit and you know the way it's called a standby letter credit that means that a bank they'll work out with the bank what kind of money they need to keep on deposit with the bank uh in the event the letter of credit gets called in so it doesn't it doesn't have to be a bond and usually then there's some agreement with the bank and under the under the terms of the agreement if the applicant doesn't demolish as required and most likely there would be some notice something in it that you know the bank would say well can you can you first notice you know advise our our borrower here that uh they're going to be in default um and then if if the applicant did not demolish then the bank would have to pay out they would use the cash that the um that their customer has on deposit to um to meet the requirement that's why they'll stand behind at the bank but you know then money has to be on deposit with them I think that's something I would imagine we can leave up to our engineer to determine the mechanism to do that whether he wants a bond or a letter of credit I mean it's to me this is this the temporary use of the house while they're building the other is just an accommodation to the resident and I don't see any reason to force them to move out it's going to be uncomfortable enough living in a construction Zone the way he has it and I'm sure barring any unforeseen conditions he's going to want to get this done as soon as possible so he can move on and complete everything so I think it's just you know we can we can put a we can have our engineer look at it and determine what he feels is the is the proper time and the you know whether he wants a letter a credit or a bond or whatever I think it's just a temporary situation I do agree with with Eve this 18 months starting from now already limits it so she still got to it's I think what what um Derek had suggested is 18 months from the date of publication of the resolution because what happens is next month you see the resolution you vote on it then as with every application uh there was a publication in the newspaper to formally you know let the world know this variance has been approved and that's when uh Derek had mentioned that with every variance approval there is a 45 day period where um an objector can step in and Sue so um but but his recommendation and I think it's an appropriate one is that this time period runs 18 months from um the date of adoption of the res resolution which will be next month yeah I think everybody's going to want to get it done as soon as possible all right so we at least are there any questions about what Karen's saying or any of the discussion we have did um I'm sorry did we have a motion in a second you did yes we did so if there's no more discussion if we want to vote on it and this just one other thing this requires five affirmative vot votes is that correct yes okay Miss Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver no Mr Stein yes chairman Cohen yes well that let see no it has five so it passes okay all right thank you good luck and uh give it your best shot I I just I'm sorry I wanted to mention one thing um I noticed the nice fence that Marina had on her elevations that is a nice element of the design could that be put on the the plan view just so it doesn't get missed in the uh plan review so I think that's important I agree and Jim Kam Alex if you're doing the site plan if you could show that uh fence covers up the air conditioners and the garbage and everything so yeah we can do that no problem thank you okay all right um our SEC our second I'm sorry thank you you're welcome you're welcome um can I have five minutes yes I was going to suggest the same thing so it is um 9:45 so 950 will be back in the box oh don't right okay man I'm not late nope right on the money Bo okay we are uh laaia you there CL let me check excuse me Steve the recording is still on so you can go ahead I think yeah I just would like FL to be back I don't blame you is Claudia back there H she should be back sure she's not back yet so I mean if the recording's on I think we can we can go okay all right our next let me just grab it our next application our next application is case number Z24 D 481 650 Great Road Block 3501 lot 1.01 2.01 11 and 12 in the E4 Zone um Karen is everything in order yes the noticing is in order the board has jurisdiction tonight okay before we begin um it's 10 to 10 now um board members do we want to uh hold the line at 11 o'clock this evening any comment on that we'll go to 11 I don't know how long this application is going to take but it's seems to be a little bit involved all right yeah that's fine that's fine I I'll be surprised if it takes that long okay I just would I ask that you maybe want to talk to the applicant's attorney okay I think there we need Claudia to let him in because I don't see him on the screen it shouldn't take that long Michael you're quite right well but I I do have a question that is maybe out of order but I'll ask it unless you stop me which is that I noticed I I feel like I'm channeling Michael right now I was sort of proud of myself that I noticed this because I feel like it's something he would do but in the chapter t10b land use article 11 zoning it says it you goes over and over again talking about the planning board shall you know if a approval granted by the planning board it talks about the planning board over and over again and we are not the planning board so I was curious as to why we're hearing this well I'll explain that in my memo did I not read the fine print if your memo it's a little different of a case D Derek you had said you thought that with respect to the time for tonight that um it might be helpful to check with the applicants attorney yes yes okay and Mr wine you're representing the applicant tonight yes I am good evening everybody do do I need to move anybody over uh yes I can tell you I have uh I have three Witnesses but to Mr Floyd's uh comment before I don't actually expect our our application to take an incredible amount of time um but I would like to go through my Witnesses uh those would be um you should see three individuals in the queue Miss sabalos named Mr OA that's Tom OA then you should also see Miss handibode that's Jessica handibode and then finally you should see Jeffrey Martell so well while you bring uh and it looks like I see two of them have been all three have been brought in thank you so I will just indicate um for the record and I'll let Mr Bridger do his uh go through his his memo as needed but I again I I don't anticipate spending a significant amount of time given that this application is seeking technically minor site plan with a D1 use variance but we are proposing absolutely no changes uh to the site we're not even proposing to cut a I mean we will end up cutting blades of grass I'm sure for maintenance but but really there are no proposed site changes whatsoever so this application is really um to install a camp use a summer camp use in the existing Princeton Day School campus um and again that does trigger D1 use variance relief given that the uh proposed Camp use is not permitted so that's really the application there are no both variances um you know what I'd like to do is uh I would have our engineer Mr oay simply bring up the plan for the sake of orienting the board to the project um again there are no site changes but I I think it would be helpful for the board though I'm sure everybody is familiar with the Princeton Day School campus um and then really the bulk of the testimony will be Miss handbo walking through the operations of the camp the proposed camp and then Mr Martell walking through the testimony as it relates to the dwan use variants so I will certainly be deferential to the board um but I I you know I also note that uh I'd be remiss if I didn't say that it is uh you know May 22nd and uh should this board hopefully approve our application obviously the goal would be to be in um right at the end of June so it's it's not on this board it's certainly us cutting it close and I want to start by simply thanking Mr Bridger uh immensely he has been a not just a pleasure to work with but uh but really really helped FastTrack this application to this board so that again should you approve it um we'd be able to uh start operating um for this summer which is which is certainly our goal uh so with that I'll turn it over to the board and then I'm happy to walk through the project in more detail Derek can you summarize your memo please thank you chair chairman Cohen um I'm gonna be brief because Justin Lesco is here and I think you know a lot of this is gonna uh relate to planning testimony so I'll kind of repeat some of Mr Wine's uh comments uh the application's been filed uh by the Bright Horizon's child Center LLC seeking minor site plan and use variance approval to njsa 40 col 55 d-7 D1 to permit a for-profit children's summer camp at the Princeton Day School while such for-profit Camp is a prohibited use in accordance with Section 10B 254 which does not permit commercial camps that are for profit um the applicants requested numerous waivers uh I reviewed them the memo is a joint memo between myself and Dan Weissman the land use engineer and uh we don't have any uh problems with the waivers requested because there is no site work being conducted at the site we do ask if the application is favorably viewed by the zoning board as a condition of approval the applicant shall update the site plan with the name address and signature of the applicant and the list of property owners within 200 feet of the subject property and the required signature format on all plans um the only other areas in our memo that we would like the applicant to to touch upon our our the drop off of students how it will work with the PDS uh camps that go there what what the number of drop offs will be the traffic impact and and that's really what we're looking at um in our memo as I said there's no site improvements and if you don't have any questions I'll hand it over to Justin Lesco who is our director of planning and uh he's prepared a memo that addresses the uh use variant and some of the planning issues board members any questions of Mr Burger okay keep it going Mr leco I'm GNA swear you in do you swear from your testimony this evening will be truthful yes I do thank you thank you and good evening members of the board and members of the public um I think dereck's at the stage very well uh I'll just add a few comments first and foremost the applicant will need to prove the positive and negative criteria to justify granting the use variants uh in their application materials they didn't include any written testimony to the variants and they said they would provide it here so it's a bit premature just not possible to for me to provide any sort of recommendation or agreement or disagreement with their argument uh until they've made it um now specifically about uh the operations of the camp I'm sure the applicant will elaborate on that uh the questions I have are about just how they'll operate uh in relation to the existing summer programs out of the Princeton Day School uh outside of this one the the school has their own um and a particular interest kind of to Echo what Derek said is how the students will get to the site uh the logistics of drop off and pickup if buses will be used for that uh assuming they're not uh how the two programs uh the day schools and and the applicants will handle the daily influx of cars on the site um again with the assumption that only one or two or maybe three stud students will be in each of those cars uh it's not a walkable or bikable site um or I shouldn't say that but it's not a very walkable or bikable site especially if you have kids in toe um Additionally the applicant should verify that they're just asking for this variance uh for this summer um or if they're asking for future Summers as well uh so that about summarizes my memo and I'm happy to answer any questions either now or after the applicant's presentation thank you thank you and I will note as well we did receive Mr Leo's report uh we will certainly do our best to address all of those comments which were in there um I will clarify for the record from the outset that uh the application is for for all summers it would be for this year um to start now and then also for future Summers as well and I apologize if that was less than clear in the application but uh you know it I I don't think it it changes the proofs that we intend to put on but I think it's a good P Point brought up by Mr Lesco that any resolution of approval on this application should certainly um make note of that as well um so with that what I'll do I'll give a very brief uh background just to to you know kind of reiterate a little bit of what I said before but go into a little bit more detail um the applicant here Bright Horizons also known as Steve and Kate's Camp um is a national Camp uh Corporation um you'll hear from our uh from our operations expert that they operate approximately 7 of these similar summer camps across the United States uh and uh and again she'll go into a little bit of detail as to how they operate what they do um what's similar and what's a little bit different than your your typical Camp um application uh as I said before we are proposing absolutely no site changes uh the only thing that you might see during the summer that you would not see necessarily during the year is some temporary directional signage uh which again goes to Mr Leo's point about how drop off will operate so you know we'll touch on that but again this is really an application to make use of the approximately we're not using anywhere near the 75 Acres of the PDS site um but to make use of a small small portion of the Princeton Day School site when the school operation is not in session uh to avoid any conflicts um there is the PDS does have a small summer program which again we will touch on uh how these two uses will play with one another but I can stipulate for the record that based upon my review of the operations of both um overall the number of uh I won I won't say students but the number of children and the number of Staff members through for both of these operations throughout the summer will be substantially substantially less than your typical day school operation during the year um just to put it on the record combined we would be looking at approximately 250 students um between the two Camp uses uh versus approximately 900 students um during your typical uh School operation so just a little bit of flavor for that application um so with that I would be happy to move straight into my first witness would which would be Mr O'Shea unless you have any questions of me at this point board members any questions of the attorney okay keep going thank you all right so Mr OA um if you can unmute yourself you're still muted Tom uh Mr AA do you swear from your testimony this evening will be truthful I do thank you um just to preempt um we'll accept Mr OA as an expert perfect thank you and just before I get to Mr OA I did want to mention as well I know there are only six board members here this evening um I think you started out with seven I know this is a D1 use variance um ordinarily uh and I'm sure miss Casey especially can appreciate this I would never take an application for a use variance with less than a full panel of the board um due to time constraints uh again in order to be operational this summer if the board should approve this application um you know I've spoken to my client and and we're going to uh we're going to to get started here um so with that Mr O'Shea uh would you like me to bring up your plans on the screen no I think I can do that okay go right ahead tell me when you can see the screen look like it is there we go okay um I I have two exhibits um one is the entire campus which is on the screen now which is called the overall sitecon oh there we go okay now I can sorry um so this is the overall plan that shows the four Lots which comprise the 75 plus 8 ERS we have lot 11 at the top of the site which has many of the athletic facilities the main lot lot 12 uh picks the bulk of the academic campus which includes the location where uh the camp will be situated and then we have lots uh 201 and 202 at the bottom of the site at this location here is the uh school if you're familiar uh with the school we have great road on the right hand side and great Road West uh is along the the eastern border of the site at the top of the page the second sheet is site plan and this is a blowup of the academic buildings and what this really shows is the circulation in the site which is very which is the same as during the school year except we're not accessing in the back of the site uh come in Great Road at this intersection with Coventry uh Farm Lane is a signalized intersection and we come into the site uh from both the North and the South circulates through the site stops at this location and then circulates this uh through the campus and back out to Great Road the two portions of the building which the camp is under contract with with Princeton Day School is the Middle School um uh and the upper school at the southern portion of the site and the drop off is actually right in front and then uh The Pedestrian route goes into the building at this location uh there is parking uh already out at the site we have approximately uh 22 uh spaces along uh the inset at this location other parking and I think you're all familiar with the the bulk of the parking out by the great Road circulate through the site and back out to Great Road um right now I think that's what I've been asked to present um is there anything um else you'd like me to go through yeah Tom I think that's really it I know everyone's familiar with the site but I think this kind of does help Orient a little bit to the location of the site in question so I have nothing further for Mr OA at this point Mr ju you you would you like these marked as exhibit A1 and A2 respectively Miss Casey I'll defer to you they are exactly what were submitted to the board already more than 10 days in advance but to the extent that you would like to have them marked um I'm certainly happy to do that as A1 and A2 great thank you okay not hearing any questions uh would you like me to leave this exhibit on the screen Tom if you don't yeah if you don't mind for for starters let's do that as we go through Miss hando's testimony um and then she has her own exhibit that she'll she'll put up so I'll ask you to take it down afterwards that that's fine I would leave this one up the blow up I think it's it's better than the overall plan yeah okay so with that Mr chair can I call my next witness certainly perfect so my next witness is Jessica handibode hi ma'am could you spell your name please the last name yeah um h a n d like your hand i b as in boy o d as and David e as in Eric I am also going to apologize I have a toddler at home and she does not let me be on the computer so I'm I'm at Starbucks so you guys get mood music while I speak as well okay and we'll swear you in do you swear from your testimony this evening will be truthful yes I do thank you all right so miss handbot unlike uh you know not that you're not a professional but uh we're going to ask to have you sworn in as a fact witness so if you don't mind giving the board the role that you play with Stephen Kates um and then hopefully they'll uh they'll accept you as the you know correct individual to speak to the operations for sure um my official title is senior site operations and so what that means means here at Stephen Kate's Camp is I focus on compliance and Licensing um at the at the state level for all of the states that we operate in so um I work with a lot of wonderful folks in New Jersey quite often um and so what I can do is I can also work on site operations with directors so I have um with this site in particular single-handedly helped them design their site layout help them determine where X activity should go um where X staff members should should keep their eyes on so um yeah okay and Jessica you would uh oversee or be very familiar intimately with the specific operations of this facility should this board approve the application is that correct that's correct yes all right so chairman I would like to have Miss handbot accepted as an as a guess as a fact witness um able to speak to the operations that's fine thank you all right so so Jess why don't we uh why don't we start with a little bit of a background on Stephen Kates great um Stephen Kates I can get really far into it um we uh operate um in 70 different states uh or 70 different uh locations across 18 different states and Washington DC so we're all across the country at this point um but we started back in the early 1980s and then started expanding kind of in the mid 2000s um Stephen Kates has the philosophy of self directed learning so campers are going to get to pick and choose which activities they they participate in um and we work with all these wonderful local schools and these great communities that we've you know selected throughout the country um to partner up and provide camping day camping for the kids within the community we offer things like um sports and recreation to all different kinds of arts and crafts like sewing or what we call Tinker which is just kind of a fun term for arts and crafts at this point um film making and music recording and kind of all kinds of arts and tech-based activities okay great um and since we uh since we have this exhibit up on the screen right now um and I know you'll get to the circulation momentarily but before we do that can you walk me through a typical day in the life of you know a Stephen Kate's camper yeah for sure um so our doors open at 8:00 every day so campers can be dropped off starting at 8 um but we have a rolling drop off so parents don't have to you know there's no set time they have to be there when they arrive they are going to take participate in a handful of activities that are open at that time as the day goes on as the morning goes on I guess um more staff members arrive so every 30 minutes you'll have a new staff member arrive which which also means a new activity opens up um and so they can pick and choose they have the option to eat a snack in the morning they get provided lunch at noon um they also get afternoon snacks um and they can participate in all of the activities that we offer all the activities that are seen on our website are available at this campsite every day um and then our pickups starts around four o'clock and our doors close at 6 okay and in terms of uh you mentioned rolling drop offs and rolling pickups so it's not that everybody shows up at 8:00 and everyone shows up at 600 p.m. to pick up there it is a it is a approximately how long is your I would call Peak window of each our Peak window goes from around 8:30 to 9:30 so about an hour um but you do see you know probably about 10 to 15% that show up before 8:30 and then that 10 to 15% that show up between like 5:30 and six so it's kind of this nice little trickle in and then there's a a bigger rush if you will and then in the same thing in the afternoons as well okay great and in terms of the camper demographic so can you talk a little bit about um their ages and how many campers you expect to facilitate at this for sure so um campers are as young as four and go up until the age of 12 here in the state of New Jersey um and we expect to see this year on average 70 to 80 campers per week and then um as we hopefully grow more at this location should we be approved this evening um we hope to get upwards of 150 kids in the next three to four years okay and in terms of Staff members uh what does that translate to in terms of a ratio yeah so our ratio in New Jersey is actually very specific in order to receive our camp permit um so if a camper is under the age of five the the ratio is seven to one if they are over the age of five the ratio is 10 to one so with 70 kids we're going to have a minimum of 12 15 staff members on average every day somewhere in that range okay all right perfect and in in terms of those staff members um have they received any type of training will they receive any type of training yeah so they all go through a pretty um long I would say like a a great not not long it's not negative it's a positive length of online training and then a wonderful inperson training as well where we go over a variety of things okay and they would be CPR and first aid certified as well yes is true okay okay wonderful um in terms of you talked about the times that camp will be open uh approximately I assume this is approximately a 10-week program um give or take the calendar year but uh but you're typically you're really you're open during the summer times um you know and you're not you're not going to be open when school is in session is that correct correct our least agreement with the school states that it would only happen during school off sessions okay so if for whatever reason um school one particular year ended sort of in later June just based on the school calendar you would not be able to start Camp until after school has been completely recessed for the summer you are correct okay all right so there will be no conflict between any school students and campers um they should never really be on the site at the same time that is right yeah okay wonderful um you mentioned that you provide lunch uh and snacks to the kids so can you talk a little bit about um the deliveries and also whether or not providing lunch means there will be any kitchen operation yeah so there actually won't be any kitchen operation um because we serve all individually prepackaged foods that are also delivered um so once per week we get our big bulk snack delivery from a distribution company called US Foods I'm sure you guys are all familiar with them um they will deliver once per week for a week's worth of snack items and then our Entre for lunch are all delivered from local restaurants so we're going to be partnering with um Domino's Pizza for everyone's favorite cheese pizza and Panera Bread for other Entre that are then delivered each day they delivered hot and fresh and ready to be served okay and they're in your experience they're delivered in in standard delivery vehicles these are not you know 18 wheelers or or anything like that no I think at the boast it might be a catering B okay all right so they so in your opinion they should have no issue circulating the site um at all okay all right speaking of uh and so and so you mentioned so there's no cooking on site so there will be you know no not even microwave service or anything like that no no microwaves okay wonderful um in terms of trash and recycling can you walk me through how that will work yeah so we actually partner with the School's janitoral staff so they'll be helping us out in the summer so they're very familiar with the facility they know it better than we do and so they're going to be helping remove our trash on a daily basis um and taking things to the dumpsters and recycl for us um in the event that we fill up that dumpster faster than their normal cycle of when the trash people come get it we will pay for an additional service on an off schedule okay and that leads me uh you mentioned the facility so that leads me to my next question on the screen you see the site plan um so can you just identify what activities are going to take place roughly where on the site yeah so towards the the bottom portion of the map you guys will see the middle school buildings those are the two buildings that we have leased property and and those are that's what that's what's in our lease for years to come right so it's not this year we're here and then we're going to move this these are the two buildings that we've been given for our lease agreement so um there are several classrooms which which within each of those they call them Huts which within each one of those Huts that we'll be occupying and then the recreational space that we're going to be using um is kind of where it says Stephen Kate's camp in that little box that's where we're going to have our soccer and stuff like that okay and so the rest of the I know it's a 75 Acre Site um the rest of the site is is not going to be for your use uh correct it is not okay and it's your understanding in uh coordinating with the PDS staff that the PDS Camp will not be operating within that area um called middle school or upper school or in that outdoor space is that correct that is right I've been um I've been told that they're going to be operating out of the lower school area which is at the top of your which is at the top of the map okay perfect um lastly before we get to your exhibit where you walk through the uh drop off operations and how the two will will work together um can you just talk a little bit about General Security um and I know I I want to caution you as we discussed earlier I I don't want you to get too far into security um because obviously if you put that this is an open public meeting and part and parcel of security is not you know opening up to your trade secrets so just general security measures that you have in place yeah um so some general things that we just do operationally at camp is obviously when we leave for the day we have a closing checklist making sure that all the doors are locked and secured and things like that um and then the school actually has informed me that they do have security cameras in this space so in the event that something would happen um we'd be able to gather that footage um and then in terms of security measures as it relates to the campers um we do all kinds of things like an emergency response plan I'm sorry it has turned into a nightclub in here I don't this is a crazy startbucks um that there's an emergency response plan where we practice all kinds of drills for natural disasters um we practice things like a shelter in place in the event um of an intruder um so we have all of those steps in place and all those policies and procedures in place to make sure that we have um a way of doing things should be you know something happen um the other thing that's security related that relates to campers is our checkout process um our check-in process is you know camper shows up and they have days in their account which means that they can check in we accept them we're we're excited that they're within our care um the security issue could be at the end of the day right when someone's here to pick up um so what we do is when a parent comes or an individual comes to pick up and they um and they drive up they are going to make sure that they Park and they're going to walk up to us and speak to us they're going to show us their ID their ID then the name on the ID must match the name within the Camper's account so when the parent or a guardian registered their camper they went ahead and they selected individuals who could pick up their camper from Camp if that ID on that name does not match um then you know that camper is not going home with that adult so that's the I think that's the biggest security thing that we want to make sure that we have always have buttoned up is just making sure that checkouts are the safest part of the day okay great and and lastly on this topic I know you know you there are also licensing standards you know to be a camp um and you have Fami and and you'll obviously comply with all of those requirements um right and then you have uh you you have taken it upon yourself to introduce yourself and will continue to maintain an open line of communication with local emergency services correct yeah that's actually one of the requirements to receive a camp permit in the state of New Jersey is reaching out to the local mergency services and making yourself known okay so they will be aware that you are that you are there and operating and your hours and all that okay correct all right so lastly what I'm gonna ask you to do um Jess is if you don't mind and I'm gonna ask I guess Tom to take his screen down so that uh Jess you can put up um your exhibit so that we can walk through the drop off and pick up uh operations um will you guys just let me know if you can see this yes we got it great so Jess what I'm gonna ask you to do is just to to authenticate this if you can just explain to the board what this is and who prepared it um I prepared it it's um an image from Google Earth or Google Maps um and this was this was something I created just as a way of of putting it down on paper and like making a drawing so that I understood where the PDS Camp operated versus where we operated so I could have a better understanding of all of that um and this is actually something the school was really excited to see because they were they were wanting to write this down too so um this is helping with our processes okay great and you've coordinated this with PDS and they're comfortable with this uh layout is that correct that is correct all right so miss Casey we should probably mark this as 83 okay all right so Jess obviously one of the big questions that came out of uh the planning letter and Mr bridger's comments as well is to walk through how both you know on-site camps are going to operate in terms of a drop off and pick up scenario um so if you can walk the board through that yeah so what I've done here is the the Red Arrows indicate where both Camp people are going to drive right so there's the kind of the communal roads if you will um so both camps will enter um from this road here oh why is it oh from this road here um and then as they get to this blue sign this is where it's going to indicate to Stephen Kate's fam is that they should turn left we are going to be the green arrows um PDS families will continue down the Orange Path and head towards their drop off location which is there in the middle as you can see um right here and then our families will drive down this road which has parking all along it as well which is great um and our drop off will take place right here before they hit this blue sign that says exit to the left and then both groups will enter will get back together here and then drive back out the main entrance okay so just to be clear when kids are being dropped off either for Stephen Kates or for PDS um they will be dropped off in an area not not where traffic from the other Camp is going to be going through is that correct yeah we decided to split them up okay wonderful and then what happens when uh Stephen Kate's kids obviously you can speak in detail to that so once they're dropped off walk me through what happens next so right here is going to be a an easy up tent if you guys have seen like at a barbecue people have those popup tents we're going to have that so it's like very clear who we are what we are what we're doing um we're going to have signs we'll have our computers out there so we can check kids in a staff member will check a camper in um and then from there there will be two staff members who are going to do kind of shuttle Vans they will walk the campers along this blue arrow which is a pedestrian walkway and they'll walk them along this blue arrow to enter our building premises which is right here okay and uh and obviously those are our staff members so they are you know they're adults um and they are you know familiar with basic traffic understanding and they will be trained uh to watch out and ensure understanding that PDS Camp uh vehicles that they drop off and circulate through that area is that correct that is correct okay and then in terms of the afternoon pickup um is it basically just the same in reverse is the same in Reverse okay so that makes it nice and easy um all right so uh Mr chair that's I think that covers uh the operations that I wanted to go through um and that really concludes my direct examination of Miss handbot can I just ask one question um I'm not familiar with Stephen katees I guess do you typically when in other locations do you usually work with schools or how do you where do you land in other areas that's a great question um yes all of our lease Agreements are actually with schools um for several reasons one of which is um the school they're empty they're great for kids right they've been determined by the local cities to be to be maybe within fire code they're within um nice neighborhoods where you know campers might live and it's easy for campers and families to get to um and then they also one of the reasons why we chose this school just as an example is um just its proximity to an area that we've deemed might really need our um assistance in the summertime and might really benefit from having it as a part of their Community is this is um so this is just open to anyone in the community so so do you encourage or do you make Provisions for um people who maybe don't have the income to to send their kids to Camp yeah we do that in two ways so one of the ways that we do that is through our financial aid program um so families can apply for financial aid and granted the access to that based on certain qualifications um and then the other one is through a program that we have called odds days where the directors of the locations actually have the ability to donate to local charities for days for kids to go to that for kids to come to Camp who might not otherwise be able to and just just as just a informational what percentage of your students might be those receiving some sort of assistance um I don't know that percentage um off hand at this moment but I could get that to you I guess that's all right I just I like the idea that that you youcover make Provisions for that I think it's very important yeah I totally agree okay all right that was it thank you you're welcome I have some questions yes go ahead Michael yeah could we um go back to full screen I mean no longer sharing thanks uh first along the same lines as as Steve you know I was wondering um where are you doing your solicitation now you know who who are these excuse me are are you saying solicitation for campers yes uh it's through online marketing mostly um and reaching out to the local school within the community to let them know that we're there not only PDS but you know all the other local public schools and other private schools that might be around the space okay and historically is there a there was some mentioned of demographics but then hardly any demographics were given who who is a you know Stephen and Kate camper give me give me give me some profiles here okay um we are a very good snapshot of the community that we're in so if you know we're in communities that are a little bit more diverse we're going to have a very diverse group of campers if we're in a community that is not super diverse we're going to probably not have a super diverse set of campers um we only see about 10% of the campers from the school that we're at so what we call the host school only about 10% of those campers will become our campers the other 90% are from the community at Large okay um regarding the coming and goings um of of the the campers do do you run any field trips that may require different hours no that's a good question no we do not not at this location okay um you're in a you you're executing a lease agreement with PDS is that it that is correct what's the length of the lease I think it's so the way it works is that a new school so we're the lease is for this summer and then the school has to tell us by October if they don't want us to come back and then if they don't then we exercise another year and then that goes into effect so it's kind of every year is kind of a renewal here so every year it can be terminated with notice with notice yes as I as I understand it yes and one of the reasons I asked that because um you know um the attorney did mention that he was seeking approval for all summers future subsequent years that that hopefully happen and Mr Floyd I should have also indicated because I think it's a nuanced point I think it's very good the approval would be based on the presentation for this Camp so for example if Stephen Kates is not renewed for the following year but I don't know XYZ camp that that operates quite differently wants to lease a space from PDS that might likely be a very different application back to this board um because they would have a different set of operations so it's a Nuance but I think it's an important Point well yes that if that's the case we wouldn't if we approved this wouldn't be giving you an odd infanem approval well I think it would be an approval for as long as this operator operates based upon the characteristics you've heard here this evening okay yeah PDS is the OWN owner and you're the applicant right so it would be long as you have a relationship with PDS that's what you're saying correct yes okay um what else did I have just want to do this maybe you'll go into it you know one of the hurdles is the zoning code saying the uses should be by a nonprofit now you're you're a LLC I assume profit making organization um why should we approve this yeah so we'll definitely get into it from our planner um but very simply speaking it's a it's a certainly a uniqueness within the ordinance um you know it's this is a for-profit school the PDS Camp which is actually an extension of their school you know presumably is also for-profit but it's been deemed to be an extension of the school so you know we'll go through the planning testimony but it's it's it's certainly a quirk and I think it it it Bears saying as well that Mr Lesco also indicated in his uh in his report as well that you know when you kind of look at this holistically um we should be looking at you know in addition to that piece also just the camp use in general as part of the D1 okay yeah I I don't know I you know maybe Mr leco does or if PDS already has a camp I don't know that they do it as a as an um as a for-profit you know I I think sort of the difference between the camp run at Lawrenceville by Lawrence Lawrenceville prep and PDS but I could be wrong is lell prep has a whole bunch of money you know they can subsidize it but I I don't know that PDS Camp if they have one is a for-profit um are you are you swearing to that is that what you're saying I am definitely not swearing to that I I don't represent them no definitely not yeah I thought you just said it was I said my I said I understand that PDS is a private school and a and a you know such an organization I I I my understanding is the camp is an extension of the school but I certainly am not not at all swearing to how they operate financially okay that's I have a question I may have missed this but what is the uh the fee for this for summer yeah we are let me double check my facts but it's um about $110 per day5 depending on location um each location set differently um based on the you know economic income of the area okay and and so how long is the season how many days so we are open for nine weeks this Su we would be open for nine weeks this summer um but as Ben was saying before that would be you know summer to Summer it might change so some Summers might be based on how the school calendar Falls some Summers it could be eight um so some you know it's just going to be different every year um five five week nine weeks 45 days roughly a 100 bucks a day yes okay and it's uh we're open for 10 weeks this year so it's 49 days because we take off um July 4 okay is is anybody from PDS here to advocate for you yes we do have uh we do have a representative from PDS on the call I didn't intend to call her as a direct witness but if you'd like to speak to her you you certainly can I have one last question so you refer to your community how when in your advertising how far out of Princeton do you go oh I don't think we did do out of Princeton we just stuck to zip codes we do it by ZIP codes so I'm sure we did the zip codes just within the city I I didn't quite get all that sorry it's probably because loud um we do zip codes so it's it's the closest zip codes to the host school so we just did whatever zip codes were surrounding the school um which would have just been in the city okay thank you yeah uh Mr chair yes uh would you mind if I just make a few clarifications well first just on the ZIP code um here we do you know the Princeton zip code does go outside the municipal borders as I'm sure everyone knows when you go to you know the Nike Princeton store on Route one that's actually in Lawrence or right Princeton Gardens across Route One or whatever whatever it is um regardless um but I do believe uh that uh princet and Day School is a nonprofit uh it might be helpful to have that person uh uh verify that um I did have some other questions about the school's operations and really how they relate to again the traffic um so I think it would be helpful to hear from them on both those issues sure okay do you want to finish questions of Miss handbot first and then we can we can bring up the representative are there any other questions of uh Miss Shand Deo okay please continue all right so I do see uh duany is in the attendee list so miss sabalos I would ask that you elevate Delany please all right hi there um so I know that you've heard some of the questions but if you could first introduce yourself you'll get sworn under oath and uh and you can answer some of those questions yes I'm Dulan Gibson I am the assistant head of school for finance and operations at PDS and ma'am do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful yes I do thank you Mr chair I would submit Miss Gibson as a as a fact witness in uh in her capacity as assistant head of Finance fine all right so miss Gibson um you did hear a couple of the questions but uh so feel free to go ahead and and answer those or ask for clarification so PDS is definitely a 501 um C nonprofit organization we do have auxiliary operations that are fairly small um they don't qualify for uh um you know ubit on you know um unrelated business income um so I it comes under our nonprofit umbrella okay so my apologies Mr Floyd uh I I certainly defer to miss Gibson on those issues thanks were there any other questions specifically for Miss Gibson uh yes I had a few Mr chair please uh so first uh I think we heard now there there's going to be up to 180 Campers at the Stephen Kates Camp um a few years down the line uh do you know the number of campers that the day school has it varies week by week uh starts out fairly slowly the first few weeks I think the um the peak is probably mid July uh I'm not sure on a daily basis um I want to say 3 or 400 maybe um I'm not entirely confident in in that number um but it's certainly yeah it's it's not unmanageable with uh their number as well in terms of traffic got it so overall there'd be a couple hundred let's say including the 180 Plus or well I guess the ask is up to 250 for the Stephen Kates but uh we heard 180 earlier um do you know the number of Staff members parking there as well um that's a good question um we I think the total parking that we have um and that part of Campus is I want to say 150 spaces um obviously the the the employees in the summer are far far fewer um because it's mostly our our Admission Office business office and so on uh so there's ample definitely ample parking okay um and those camps are not the same as this one where there is a you know this there's not necessarily a definite drop off time but those ones uh do they have a definite drop off time yes we do our um we we do have an early morning um I don't that may be as early as 7:30 I'm not 100% sure of that um it's fairly small the bulk of our kids arrive around 8:30 um and we run till 3:30 uh again we have a an after school or after Camp um but that's a much smaller number MH so do you have any idea of how the the traffic flow into and out of the school for these two combined camps and I'm not a traffic engineer it doesn't sound like you are either um do you just have any idea how that's going to work in the summer are we gonna are we going to expect you know 400 cars at uh 8:30 compared to you know X during the normal school year so it will be far fewer than the than the normal school year absolutely for sure um we have three um security officers on staff during the day and they will as as actually we have more than that during the school day during the school year directing traffic but those three will definitely be involved in the traffic morning and afternoon um you know to ensure that people are driving safely as well as to make sure that the flow is as it should be okay and is the drop off similar in this you know I know you have kind of two going on here but is it similar with what we just saw as it is during the school year um yes it's fairly similar there was discussion with our security staff on um on sorting out how to make these two things as I think I think somebody said play well together um and the the picture that that was shown um in my opinion um should work well and I know that our our director of security is comfortable with it thank you all right so unless there are any other questions for Miss Gibson um I will uh move along to my Final witness which is Jeff Martell and uh I actually would like Mr Martell to be sworn in I'm gonna have him go through his credentials as both a traffic engineer and uh and a professional planner okay do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful I do thank you for the Jeffrey Martell from Stonefield engineering and design 15 Spring Street in Princeton okay so Jeff if you can go through your qualifications um as both well really as an engineer traffic engineer as a planner that would be grateful sure I am duly licensed as a professional engineer and professional planner in the state of New Jersey uh bachelor's degree from University of Delaware master's degree from NJIT uh been practicing as a professional engineer for close to 20 years and a professional planner forx approximately 12 years uh appeared before approximately 30 land use boards in the capacity as a professional planner and 100 plus in the capacity as a civil and traffic engineer um our firm regularly uh performs um services that that include professional planning for various private applicants and some public entities and similarly on the traffic engineering front uh as well um including approximately personally maybe 10 to 12 applications including um either school facilities or daycare slamp facilities I think we we'll accept you as an expert thank great thank you so predominantly I will be speaking um in the capacity as as a professional planner I will uh touch a little bit on some of the traffic parking circulation comments that have been brought up um but the main thrust of our application to evening is that the applicant is Seeking a what we're calling a D1 variance um for what we're saying is a seasonal Day Camp um obviously at the Princeton Day School um D1 applications can be very complex uh I'm hopeful that this one is potentially a little bit more logical and straightforward than I'm sure a lot of cases the board has heard uh but I guess time will tell here as we proceed um the site is located on the on the Princeton day school as was demonstrated in exhibits A1 and a to that is a 75 acre parcel albeit um Stephen Kates is only using a small percentage of that uh associated with the application and it is zoned E4 in the uh adopted uh Township portion of the zoning ordinance uh similar uses are permitted uh and conditionally permitted in the in the zone um obviously the existing school and its operation are permitted uses um but our seasonal Day Camp which is for for profit is not a permitted use so therefore we are seeking a D1 variants and appearing before this board um as part of our application also seeking uh I guess to the extent it's required a minor site plan approval as well as part of preparing for this evening's presentation reviewed the application and the plan materials as well as the planning and Engineering memos zoning ordinance master plan uh and visited the site I'm also generally uh familiar with the with the township and the local areas uh having lived there personally and and worked there for the last six seven years uh in my opinion the this use the seasonal daycare use is an inherently beneficial use um it's kind of a blended um version of uh many offerings that are at a Traditional School a daycare facility and and other camps that often exist at public or or school facilities uh I make specific note as Mr wine stated this application is very specific to the Steve and and Kate's Camp not just the generic uh Camp you know we are putting the testimony in very specifically on that operator uh extensive programming and offerings um as was briefly testified but did get a chance to visit their website I haven't actually attended a Stephen and Kate's Camp facility but um on the website you have everything from robotics to arts and crafts to you know some of the the more typical things Recreation and and things of that nature but coding and all sorts of things so you know in this idea of this Blended you know School Camp daycare offering that many entities provide in the in the summertime including PDS including private daycares including you know soccer camps and basketball camps and what have you um you know they provide a variety of activities obviously depending on what type of camp but I think specifically this camp uh the enrichment activities um are are significant um I think again looking at the website and and listening to miss handibode leading up to today um it's a well-run organization very well organized um I also think in terms of the use um whether they're from Princeton municipality or potentially neighboring municipalities um there are many parents and caretakers who uh look to keep uh some version of their regular schedule outside of the school year and I think there's there's certainly something to be said to having that offering as well from a planning perspective we look at uh what we call the seeka balancing test where again we're looking at an inherently beneficial use in my opinion that can constitutes a special reason and satisfies What's called the positive criteria uh for this applicant's request for a variants and there's four components when we look at the seeka balancing test one is to identify the public interest at stake uh in this case we have a a seasonal Day Camp um where we think there's both a need and a desire uh and would have a benefit to the greater uh Community we identify the second is identify DET the potential detrimental impact that will ensue from the grant of the variant I see none here U E4 Zone as as I said does allow um very similar uses um PDS already operates uh a seasonal or summer day camp on this site um and I don't see anything uh that we will be doing that will uh be substantially different other than maybe some differences in the in the programming uh but they'll be you know generally similar in nature as to uh what type of folks would benefit from that um I need to third is to consider reasonable conditions that the board May impose um and I would suggest potentially two um one is related reled to that drop off exhibit exhibit A3 uh that went up I think that's an important part of this application there would be two day camps at one facility um the reason we think that's appropriate in this case is based on the size of the PDS it's its size in terms of of land area the 75 Acres but more importantly um it schools a lot larger number of students um throughout the main school year so despite there being tube camps that would exist on here it's actually a much uh less intense use than exists throughout the normal uh school year so I think that coordinated um drop off uh design that was put forth by Miss handibot and and accepted by Miss Gibson and and the folks at PDS um is an important uh component and potentially uh a reasonable exhibit or reasonable condition um to put forth um along with uh the wayf finding elements um you know the signage that was mentioned to direct parents or caretakers uh where the drop off is and you know as simple as that tent may sound that that recognition of which operator is which um I think is important uh as well so just identifying each of the two entities um with that temporary wayf finding um I'll use this opportunity just to talk a little bit about some of the traffic and the operations um from from uh from my perspective if I can share my screen back to exhibit A3 can we all see this on my screen yes yes okay great I think starting at the entrance and exit what's what's very critical here um is that is a signalized intersection that has turn Lanes in both directions North and South um significant capacity obviously um is welld designed within that intersection so I think the point of Ingress and egress for the property um is an important um item relative uh to considering the school uh as a location for the for the Sten KES um as we work our way onto the site obviously we have the um the uh the decision point there to to make a left towards stepen Kates or to continue on to the PDF uh Camp drop off I think one thing that we've spoken about with this graphic that that maybe it moves a little bit north on the page is there is a pedestrian connection um right through to the sidewalk um that would lead you to the uh the stepen katees area so there is a pedestrian route somewhat baked into this this drop off location that I think is significant and then albeit that there are uh parking spaces along both the routes for the drop off of the PDS and the um steveen Kates my understanding is that the staff uh will be parking out by the carriage house or the callus building um area so um the parking spaces that are approximate um to the drop off areas are are not going to be necessarily full with the staff that gets there before the campers um that area those areas um would either be available for a short-term park at the drop off um or just additional uh area for to keep uh uh congestion reduced in that area um so when we look at parking we look at the safe Ingress and egress at an established signalized intersection um consider the the site layout um the idea of the Rolling uh time in which the Steve and Kate uh campers would would come which for the most part will be after uh likely a majority of the PDS uh uh folks who who mostly come before that 8:30 time whereas the Steve and Kate kind of roll out to their Peak they think starts at maybe around 8:15 or so and extends all the way out to 9:30 um so we do have a little bit of a a rolling time there a little bit of a difference in that peak in the morning um so when I consider all of those I think that the drop off and the pickup again is kind of a a critical point to this whole application and I think um certain conditions relative to that would be reasonable for the board to impose the second of which I think is is somewhat obvious but relative to the Stephen Kate's application um you know that it would only operate when the PDS uh regular school um schedule is is off um so it would never operate during the uh typical school year so I think those are two reasonable conditions um looking back at the seeka uh balancing that fourth item is to weigh the positive and negative criteria and determine whether on balance the grant of the variance would cause a detriment uh to the public good um again the day camp is is an inherently beneficial use therefore it satisfies that positive criteria and I don't see any significant detriment um to the public to the to the um uh the folks in and around the area or the campers and the and the parents and caretakers of the PDS Camp um I think the site is is particularly suited um for this activity um and about just the Stephen C and Kate's camp for a second when we think about particular suitability I think it was a good question one of the board members asked are you always at schools and there's there's probably business reasons for that but I also think there's good land use planning reasons for that and this case PDS has the buildings it has the Outdoor Recreation Area directly to the south of the two buildings that Steve and Kates are leasing it has the safe Ingress and egress it has the parking it has the site layout which already contemplated pick up and drop off um which maybe is a little bit different than than a daycare or a community center or something like that which maybe doesn't necessarily um operate with with uh School type drop offs but in this case we already have that in uh within the site layout um also noting that some of the support uh facilities are already in place um you know was mentioned lightly but the trash the cleaning the recycling you know having that janitorial staff having that security available from PDS um you know that infrastructure so to speak to operate this particular use uh I do think is very notable um I don't see a substantial detriment to the public nor the Zone plan and really the last thing that I would just mention from a from a planning perspective um is that I do think the use is consistent with the master plan uh and reexamination Report from November of of 2023 um under section one specifically in 1.6 there's goals uh goals 42 is to provide high quality educational facilities to meet the needs of the residents um in the summer we don't have school um and this is this is an extension of you know things that uh these kids learn at school not not just uh you know the enrichment the the science and the robotics but also the social parts and and the recreational Parts as well goal 62 is to meet active and passive Recreation needs um again you know schools have recess and and other ways for for kids to stay active this is similar in nature where there where there is uh times to be active and and proper facilities to do so um just as I said just south of the uh the buildings that stepen Kates are are leasing um and lastly in in 5.0 of the um Community facility plan element there are recommendations and number 15 talks about maximi maximize utilization of existing facilities and land and that's specifically under education facilities and I think this application is is literally spot on to that goal it's an existing facility uh it has a much reduced um use in the summertime well within the capacity to uh accommodate the Stephen Kate's operation um and I think uh you know although it's in the summer and not part of the state regulated program it's it's certainly part of of a child's overall uh education so in conclusion thinking about the D1 variants I think we satisfy the statutory requirements to approve a D1 variance and the seek a balancing test is satisfied um there's a a very interesting distinction here in the ordinance and some questions about the for-profit nature um and I can't exactly tell you why that was written in um obviously it was uh not a party to u to the writers uh who decided to put that in but from what I can say is from a land planning perspective I don't think there's any Distinction on profit or nonprofit We have the soccer camp that you pay you know $400 for to go to the week and the and the coaches are profiting versus a municipally run soccer camp we have a a daycare that you that you pay for versus you know potentially some other type of child care we have schools obviously that some are public some are private um and there's reasons within Society why these all exist um but how we think about land planning and how we think about um just how the the use and the land will operate in this case the PDS facility um I personally as a planner don't make any strong distinction when I think about how uh the board should consider uh granting the variance uh specifically on whether it's for profit or not obviously it's acknowledged that this particular use um is for profit um with that said I I think the application could be approved without substantial detriment to the public good or the Zone plan and lastly I think it's a great opportunity to to utilize the Princeton Day School um its property its improvements its staff uh it's in infrastructure uh for seasonal uh Camp operation as Stephen Kates is proposing here so with that said I don't have any more direct testimony but of course I'm happy to answer uh everyone's questions yeah Jeff just a couple I have a question for you Mr Martel a legal question um sure you stated a few times that it's clear that this summer camp is an inherently beneficial use and I just wanted to clarify with you what's the basis for that statement because it's involving Child Care yeah I believe it's using a school facility or specifically schools and daycare facilities are uh have been deemed inherently beneficial yeah yeah correct and I think this is a um this is somewhat of a blend of that the use of a camp versus child care I think is um not an important distinction um this could be called stepen Kate's summer Child Care Facility um you know and operate exactly the same so I don't I think the the spirit and the physical components of this Camp uh fall under the same planning um guys as would be you know child care care or daycare um and I think just some of the similarities to a school I think are are relevant too um but but most but more so probably that child daycare um you know similarity and my next question is Mr wine had uh pointed out that that it's this applicant's position that this variance applies to them it doesn't apply um to any summer camps that PDS might decide to contract with if they decided things didn't work out with the the Stephen Cades and next summer they have a different summer camp and now the zoning officer tells them well um you need variance and they say what do you mean we got a variance last year it's the same I want to tell understand better what is your position on that are you saying only Steve and Kate's summer camps would qualify as inherently beneficial use or I think I think that the board I think this particular applicant and what they're offering is is an inherently beneficial use and as I've said you know appropriate on this site Etc we can't sit here and say that every possible uh Day Camp would also be appropriate they may not be staffed as well they might try to work under different licensing they they may uh have different policies relative to drop offs so I would be a little bit out of my realm in the in the legal side but from a planning perspective if another applicant came forth and and proposed to the board a near identical model um you know they might have an argument that um you know that that they're similar or the same um but without the board receiving that application and and hearing that testimony and getting those those statements on the record and on paper um I think what we're trying to say or put forth is that we're asking the board to consider a very specific set of facts and a very specific operator and how they operate the site and for under those reasons we think it's appropriate for the board to grant that variance and I think what we're trying to represent is we don't necessarily think that there's other operators out there that do the exact same thing and that would be for the board to act on those applications separately and Miss Casey if I may I I think to follow up on that as well as Mr Martell put in his testimony regarding the seeka balancing test the the third prong of that test is to imp is to impose reasonable conditions right um so even if the board if the board accepts the testimony it would be to impose reasonable conditions and I think it's fair to to make the condition that it's this camp this operator based on this set of facts if only because if a future op we we have testified that we're expecting up to you know at Max Capacity 180 students uh campers I'm sorry if operator XYZ comes in and operates at a at a you know at a camp with 500 600 students that would be a different Arrangement we're here seeking minor site plan approval as well which takes into consideration the facts that have been presented so I think that's why part of the seeka balancing test when you're justifying an inherently beneficial use is to give the board the opportunity to say yes we agree but here's a condition we're going to impose or several conditions we're going to impose to ensure that we have we maintain some degree of control over what this looks like a year from now five years from now 10 years from now and so we have a representative from PDS here miss Gibson so that's pdss position too that um what what you've authorized as the owners and you're here tonight on behalf of this applicant and that um you're not you you you would not be seeking to have this approval apply to other summer camp operators I would think another operation would have to make its own case um as has been noted unique to their operations and their specific um program and just one more question Mr Martell under sea so it's your argument that there would not be a lot of similar camps to this one meaning that there's something unique about steveen Kates and that that um so that there's a need for this in the community that you know isn't being met with with other summer programs yeah I'm not I'm not sure I'm specifically saying that I don't I'm not here to represent that Stephen Camp Kates is somehow better or or so unique that there's not other offerings in the market or the region that you could go and get that same level enrichment I think what I was more trying to say is just based on their programming the number of activities that they offer they're significant enough to reach I think a highlevel product that that makes them you know not only desirable but but beneficial to the Future campers this isn't you know a place where you're you're necessarily just paying to have somebody watch your child for eight hours while you go to work I mean this is significant programming opportunities and and born I think a lot out of the spirit of of the education system you know similar to what we see a lot of the the um daycare facilities now establishing you know very detailed curriculums and offering a lot um so I think the market for child care is as such where there's just there's there's very good programming and offerings out there and I think Stephen K Kates is in that that higher class level of of potentially you know that child care or seasonal day camps but not necessarily maybe rising to such a unique that they are the only or the best anything of that nature I didn't mean it to represent it that way Mr Lesco did you have any thoughts uh I do I do have a few questions um first off on the the inherently beneficial designation uh there was a discussion of this kind of being a blended child care school you know those are the listed inherently beneficial uses um does a summer camp have a State Licensing requirement and if so is it the same as a child care I would defer to miss hand AO to answer that question okay yes um yes so the state of New Jersey has very specific summer camp regulations so we actually receive a summer camp permit um through the state working with the local Health Department as well okay are to your knowledge is it the same kind of caliber or or so so it's not yeah so it's not a child care license a child care license is um slightly more in depth um the camp permit in New Jersey is one where um by submitting it and by obtaining that permit we agreed to a certain level of background checks and staff qualifications a certain level of camper paperwork with immunization history that we must collect um and then a certain level of standard like ratios like um sanitizing procedures like emergency preparedness plans as as just examples okay thank you and reason I ask is because I believe the case that established the seea test was about a child care center and one of the reasons for including that as inherently beneficial was because of the depth of State Licensing uh so I'm not sure you know if this reaches the same level as a as a child care as you know a listed inherently beneficial use um and then in terms of a school uh I know Mr Martell stated something that in his opinion land use doesn't change based on uh whether something's for profit or nonprofit um I don't necessarily disagree with that however I think our Municipal ordinance does uh where it mentions uh you know in multiple places uh there is a difference for between not for-profit uh and for-profit uh particularly schools actually including in this E4 Zone um so I would just throw that distinction out there um and I guess one of the other questions uh and I don't know if this is a hypothetical question or if this is an actual question but if princet and Day School is running its own camp that has 500 students or you know whatever was uh 400 500 it seems that the essentially they could do this so or you know another nonprofit similar to them could do this um and I'm just curious if the applicant has a response to that or if the board should just consider that yeah mean I think I think just going back to that what is this use and and is it inherently beneficial and obviously my uh statements relating it to child care and things like that we acknowledge the licensing is not the same and I think this is part of our representation to the board that we think this action should potentially be specific to this particular applicant because this particular applicant has a business model with an offering that you know I think is very extensive and would you know meet criteria if criteria were to be established I mean the you know the the Robotics and the coding and things these are not you know types of uh offerings that you see at a lot of other you know uh summer camp so to me this this has more um of an offering more more established more diversity uh a nice blend of of you know art related activities versus you know science and and stem side of things so to me that's why I I think about Steve and Kate's um specifically Rises to to that um you know uh that same level as as a child care facility and and that inherently beneficial use I wouldn't necessarily not sure if I could represent you know another applicant with another summer camp and make that same representation I'd have to understand exactly all of that so that that was you know the first thing and that and the you know the profit or not profit um you know we acknowledge it we're we're here before this board because we are you know for-profit and otherwise we don't you know fit into fit into the the list of permitted uses so we acknowledge it uh you know municipality you know made that distinction for whatever reason they chose and this board we certainly recognize as has to consider that um when with this application but we think with with the proposal put forth by Steve and katees um you know we do think it's it's a desirable use in the in the community and I do think it meets the standard for a variance and my reasons for saying I don't necessarily put a Distinction on for-profit or not for profit relative to the to the variances and the land planning is because I don't think that component would change anything that I've you know stated forth you know tonight um in terms of supporting the variant one more question for you as I understand your testimony even if the board were not to conclude that this is an inherently beneficial use it's your testimony that it still promotes the purposes of zoning and meets the criteria for the granting of the variant correct yeah I think if if the board were to disagree with that um I think an argument could also be made um relative to special reasons and particular site you know suitability um you know in terms of the municipal land use law purposes um you know I think a c g and m um you know know would all be relevant here encouraging Municipal action to guide appropriate use of development and lands which promote the public health safety morals and general welfare um you know g talks about uh you know land use in terms of a variety of of of uses and purposes um you know I think this is a a facility that exists and it's not used in the summer and it could have a purpose and a use um in the summer or at least an increase Beyond what the PDS does um with this and you know purpose M encouraging coordination of various public and private procedures and activity shaping Land Development um you know with a view of of lessening the cost of such development and more effective use of the land obviously PDS is not for profit as we said uh but there there obviously is an arrangement between them and Steve and katees and and obviously PDS has deemed um that this would would benefit PDS and and some way shape or form so you have you have kind of a built-in um scenario where where PDS uh not only wants this but believes the site can can accommodate it um so I do think there's a number of of uh you know sections land use law that are benefited here and I think again the particular site suitability we're not asking for any improvements we're going to have a popup tent and a and a sign that says PDS this way and and Stephen Kates that way and and we have a wonderful school that can hopefully provide more benefit to to folks in the region during the summer excuse me one second Michael you had a comment question um I'm gonna have a few a few questions and comments but and maybe some other board members May too uh where we at we're at 11:20 and I don't and I'm I'm not pushing to limit further questions comments I think it should go and we also got I know if there's any in the public they also has to speak so um you know at this point I'm not comfortable with this um so I don't know if we want to continue in this to another meeting um I'm I'm particularly a little bit uncomfortable with nothing being put in your application about you doing inherently beneficial seeka nothing in your application Printed Matter about your organization to just hear it verbally and generalized you could have put in probably a whole lot of printed matter that we could try to link up so if you want to close this meeting Mr chairman please do because I really it there's more to be said on this well unfortunately I I there's a lot more to be said on this but I think this is this is time specific I mean they're they're trying to get going here and and so maybe we listen for a bit more and uh other board members what do you think let's keep going for a little while at least you all up and awake what the hell CH chair the only thing if I may add um the only thing I would suggest because I think Mr Floyd raises a couple of good points we are time sensitive but if there's something that you know the board would like to see submitted in more formal form the only thing I would ask for then and I know it's asking as a courtesy would be to be able to you know if we're going to go down the route of adjourning so that the board can feel more comfortable with printed materials would be to adjourn to some type of special meeting um if possible whereby again I I'm not to be clear I'm not trying to be presumptuous at all and suggest that the application will be approved but that if it is approved we'd be able to have a resolution to that effect at your regular June meeting again to to for for time reasons that that's the only thing I would request because I have absolutely no issue providing the board with whatever additional materials um it may want to see or or we feel after hearing comments tonight but I just I don't want to run into a scenario whereby two things I don't want to run into a a scenario where we rush a vote tonight where the board doesn't feel comfortable and it doesn't work out in our favor if it otherwise could and I don't want to run into a scenario whereby we get an approval but it it it's it doesn't work with the timing I I don't know that that would be um helpful either so that would be my request um I'm certainly differential to the board um like I said I don't want to rush something and end up especially with six board members and end up with a with a vote that could have gone the other way with with some additional commentary or materials that's all okay let me ask Derek if we well first of all if we if we do continue this can we have a special meeting in the next several weeks we'd have to get whatever information you want to put together very quickly but then the question is assuming assuming it got approved can they operate before it's been memorialized uh I'm going to defer to Karen I thought Mr wine was going to contact Karen about the resolution for tonight or um or how it would be done I don't I don't know about well I mean I I'm I don't know the answer to this I'm raising this question in order to get your State Licensing don't you need to provide proof of local approval yes in order for the permit to so we get we get the permit from the state and then we reach out to the local health department and the first thing that they require to see is a zoning approval okay so I don't think uh I think this resolution let me rephrase that the applicant then is looking if the board were inclined to approve this at a special meeting they're hoping to get a resolution on the June 26 agenda which is the next time the board would meet um or if it were approved tonight that's the soonest they would get their resolution June 26th meeting um so I can certainly prepare it in two weeks if the board is prepared to have a special meeting in the next two weeks um one of the reasons I pressed Mr Martell about all right are there other reasons besides simply advancing or or it's not nothing simple about it but saying it's inherently beneficial are there not other bases and he explained yes he thought there were um so I'm not sure that that is the most critical piece here um making a determination that because I think this applicant and and that's why Michael Floyd's suggest that we need material is pertinent because the applicant I don't think is saying any child care center uh is going to be inherently beneficial it's what this program offers to children it's not just a way to keep kids it's a daycare place and you drop the kid off and you say well um that that's what they're going to do all day they're just going to play games and uh fill the day um so I think though in order for this applicant to get their resolution it's either got to get approved tonight or there has to be a special meeting because um 26 is not that far away so how soon do we have to get if we get materials in from the applicant how long do we have don't we have to a minimum of 10 days before we have a meeting well I mean ORD ordinarily I it's difficult to tell if there's any public interest in this or not but I mean ordinarily that's what we'd say can we have it uh 10 days before the next meeting um in this case uh I don't know if the material they're presenting is material that's on their website or if it's something else that this applicant is going to provide um but I think we could have a package to the board by Friday if that helps because it's all yeah we have it on all in some form it's just going to take you know a good day to get it in a a professional format that the board uh you know can consume but well I mean what what's what's what are the thoughts of the board members at this point we are at can I say something I'm not sure what the issue is do we think that Peds has not done their homework on who they want to associate with I mean why is why is it our question as to whether this is a you know whatever of the board the the designation of an inherently beneficial use kind of gives an application a step up they still have to prove not going to cause any harm but but if you accept the argument that this is an inherently beneficial use then that pretty much presumes that it's satisfied um all the positive things we call positive criteria it's done that already so the only thing the applicant has to point or establish is that there's nothing going to be substantially detrimental that they're not going to cause any harm if you allow this to go forth um well it's it's it's also it may be inherently beneficial if no one else is offering that service right in this area but if four other camps are doing robotics within a reasonable radius of Princeton you're not inherently beneficial that's why I was pressing Mr Martell because it seemed to me that he was also trying to explain that all right if you don't accept that argument there are other bases um which promote the purposes of zoning and as he pointed out it's a very suitable site and I I don't rely on pdss Research I rely on what I do when the board does right that's why we're here so I think Stephen that's I'm just asking the question because well that's the answer to it I mean Stephen before this meeting the applicants application said we're going to explain at the meeting what the basis is for this application okay well they did but having now raised inherently beneficial as the basis for it it triggers more questions because you don't you would you don't shall we say um because inherently beneficial designations um assist an applicant greatly in getting their approval it's not something that the board has ordinarily done and um I think uh uh Justin had indicated that he believed the secet case involved the child care facility actually involved a residential facility for head trauma victims and there had been no use like that in the area so this that applicant came in so and I'm not I'm not suggesting in any way that an applicant has to meet that kind of standard and it doesn't have to be a a Trauma Center for uh head injuries but I think that by making the argument of inherently beneficial it's raising more questions than no that's that's all fine I accept Michael's uh comment I mean let's move on Steve yeah and but it was also just in the first raised the questions about it wasn't just Michael it was the municipal planner and to be clear and I think to miss Casey's Point as well that's why Mr Martell spoke in the alternative through the particular site suitability and positive negative criteria analysis um which is your more typical D1 argument so if the board did not feel that it it met that inherently beneficial standard there there's that alternative standard which which is a much more typical and familiar standard to to propose well I mean I think at this point either the board can press on and make a decision tonight or uh if there's a willingness have a special meeting with the goal being that the uh resolution if it's approved could still be on the June 26 so there's two aspects to this number one is how soon you can get us this additional information and the second is will the board have a special meeting so board members do you are you willing to have a special meeting within the next several weeks yes yes I am yeah I can't do next week for sure okay Michael did you say yes yes okay good all right um all right so we can probably get we can probably have a special meeting we we can't uh we still have one of our other board members that uh is not here uh that we'd have to check with but um how soon can you get us additional supporting documentation we we can get everything in by Friday I mean we can overnight it tomorrow for Friday delivery and have it submitted digitally as well um and then the only other thing I would I would ask would be if we can at least pick a special meeting date so that we can carry our notice because there's going to be no way we could notice in time um for a special meeting within the next couple of weeks we just that yeah so we our not what's our notice have to be Karen 10 days or what is it well I mean any notice that be up going to have to Ren notice yeah they would have to send notices out to those within 200 feet at least 10 days before same thing they would have to get newspaper publication at least 10 days before and that would be waved if we carried to a date yeah that's correct that's absolutely correct so um Bernice you said June 5th won't work for you so if we're sticking to yeah I meant uh the next yeah uh the 29th definitely doesn't work okay well I'm assuming that's very close to Memorial Day and that people may have plans that continue on for a couple days so Memorial Day is this weekend so we're correct so Derek I don't know if we're looking at the fifth or the 12th and do we need to coordinate with any other board for the availability of the uh Zoom or do we have to meet on a Wednesday I we have to meet on a Wednesday we have full planning board stuff oh okay that's what I thought that we we're restricted we the 10th so it's either the 5th or the 19th this works I'm fine with either date yeah does the fifth work for everyone else yeah I have a a question that goes to the beneficial use and it's really to the applicant which is um and also takes into account the comments from Michael Floyd which is about having a number of um summer camps in the area have you done any market analysis to so that there's a deficit of places for um summer camps and so this is really filling an unmet unmet need um so one of so when we're doing our site acquisition one of the there's a couple things that we look at one of which is zip codes that you know seem like communities that we you know that are people who typically come to our camps the other thing is is we um as a Bright Horizons entity we have something called backup care um backup care is provided through an employees employer and so an employer will work with their human resources department to to procure a certain amount of backup care days for their employees so these are days that are free from the employer to the employee for their child to receive care um and we have a significant number of campers for this Camp who are registered who are backup care families so um when we were doing our side acquisition Bright Horizon said this ZIP code will have a lot of people who need care they need that backup care through their employer um so that's one of the the main reasons why we do choose facilities like this one is based on what right Horizons deems as a neighborhood that we should be in based on their needs and Miss but when you say backup that means their employer will will pay then for the camper fees yeah so their employer pays a a certain subset and then they pay I think it's like $20 for the day um in order for their camper to be able to attend on a day where their maybe their care fell through if you could summarize that sort of information and add it to it in support of the concept of um beneficial use I think it would be useful for the board okay I'll put something together all right so going back now Derek did you say the fifth could work uh yes ma'am on my way the next week and the 19th is a week before the regular meeting so I I think that's the only appli date if if it works with other people people I mean Justin does that work for you yes it does okay now we we don't know if it's going to work for um harlon we just tell him about it and he'd also have to listen then of course to tonight's tape in order to be able to uh to vote so what about everybody else does it work for everybody else I'm good for the fifth that's not a problem yeah yeah should fine it works yes I may have to do it from time zone but we're already on Zoom anyway so I think we should try I I realized I was trying to say something earlier and then I saw I was on mute so it didn't work very well but I I just hope we can be clear about what it is that we want to know because I I we're if we're talking about whether or not we think there are enough is it our responsibility to care about whether or not they can fill the camp I don't think that's our charge Eve I think some of these questions are being raised by the argument that it's inherently beneficial and and what do it inherently mean in this situation it can't mean I don't think it means uniquely no it doesn't no it doesn't but but um the applicant has argued and they feel that there are aspects of their program which are different than other summer camps that they're offering um kind of you know different kinds of programming where they say Robotics and coding and things that other summer camps might not offer they might just say well we have arts and crafts and the kids play sports and that's our summer camp so that goes the direction of different rather than inherently just means it's naturally a part of it doesn't mean have to prove they're unique no but but um there has to prove that it's a real need well oh sorry Michael goad no you're the planner go ahead well I I think there there are really two different arguments the first one that was being made was that it's inherently beneficial like a school a hospital yeah a child care center it didn't sound like the board is necessarily in agreement with that argument so then the applicants deferring back to the normal requirement for a d variance uh which does include those special reasons and that's what uh I think Michael and I certainly Echo him uh stated that we need more information on to for the board to make that decision of whether that's true or not so the inherently beneficial it seems that argument has come and gone and now we're looking at the other argument well I think if I may Mr Lesco I mean that the the board can look at either argument right so if if five members of the panel of of six tonight but seven in general feel that it meets inherently beneficial that's one way to get the approval if five members feel that um it doesn't not not five members feel it doesn't but five members feel that they would prefer to approve it under the special reasons positive and negative criteria that's another Avenue um so both are are acceptable Avenues towards the approval and I think I mean to the extent the board wants the additional information that's why we're setting up this special meeting we're happy to do that if the board didn't feel it needed the additional information they could approve it nonetheless I guess that's what I'm trying to say and again without trying to sound presumptuous and I really hope the board can appreciate I'm not it's more of a it's more of a yeah highlevel analysis I would agree and I was pres presumptuous to say that the first argument was came and gone came and went I mean it seems to me you started you you raised the question we should explain to the applicant what the board wants to see and that's uh that's a good point I guess that part of that depends on what argument the applicant wants to pursue if they still hope that the board will conclude it's an inherently beneficial use then um it might be helpful to them to explain why um there is not an overabundance of camps like this in the area that they have looked at the market and they say no there's really sort of a uh something special here um a as opposed to a situation where you might say well uh well I'll get I guess I'll give an example that came from the board assisted living and uh uh the board concluded that they had not demonstrated a need for that and that there were lots of other facilities that could and that was all tied though to their inherently beneficial argument so I think to a certain extent it's up to the applicant at this point which way would they like to go and that may influence what kind of materials they can provide to The Bard if they're arguing that it meets um it promotes purposes of zoning that the site is suitable that may have them decide they'll submit certain packet of material if they want to keep arguing that it's inherently beneficial then they they may side yes they they want to also provide some other information so um if there's something you want to see then absolutely um raise that now and say yeah I'd be interested in seeing this or that and and I think that's kind of the point I mean just like we threw the kitchen sink in terms of arguments either option A or option b we would throw the kitchen sink at whatever materials we're going to provide you anyways um you know to have as complete a presentation as possible you know for me anything you want to write if you you want to revisit it on this whole question of the zoning code requiring that it be a for a nonprofit and you know I heard your arguments somewhat about that but still we didn't get into a real big Exchange about it or any other other board um you know a town that doesn't tax an entity PDS probably said don't run a profit business on land that we're not taxing you on you know to and then plus they mentioned the YMCA and and so forth and so on you know this was a an old Pres ferian YMCA and I'm not kidding and yeah you tie the two together no making money on land that's tax exempt it may not be a big issue to some of you but they put it in the code it is the code all right so is the board willing then to carry this to June 5th for a special meeting yeah yes fine with it okay all righty then for those who are interested or are watching uh this application is being carried to June 5th it is a special meeting um which will need to be noticed uh but not by the applicant by by the board um and the applicant then will not be required to send out any additional notice in on okay thank you and thank you everybody for your time this evening I think it was fruitful and uh and we look forward to seeing you on the 5ifth right thank you okay okay so I guess uh we are adjourned for the evening thank you all good night Derek did you want to say something I just said good night thanks everyone good night a couple weeks get home safely we're all home letter head by the way what the new letter head is very nice I almost didn't know what I was looking at at first oh great y thank you thanks okay night good night all thanks a lot