okay good evening uh this is a regular meeting of the Princeton zoning Board of adjustment being held electronically via zoom on March 27 2024 at 7:30 pm. pursuant to section 13 of the open Public's meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the sunshine notice of the Princeton's Zoning Board of adjustment such notice has been placed on the official bullet board at the municipal at the Princeton Municipal complex and by transmitting a copy of the notice to the Princeton packet town topics the times Trentonian and by filing a copy with the clerk of Princeton on March 22nd 2024 and has been posted to the municiple website www Princeton nj.gov meetings pursuant to the extension of the ongoing state of emergency executive order number 292 in accordance with the emergency remote public meeting protocol for local public bodies to conduct a public meeting without physical attendance by members of the public notice that during this extension of the state of emergency all regular and special meetings of the the Princeton Zoning Board of attention attention adjustment will be held electronically via Zoom was transmitted to the Princeton packet town topics the times and was filed with the clerk of Princeton on the 24th day of April 2020 such notices have been placed on the official bullettin board at the municipal complex and on the prinston website and are to be maintained throughout the year and by transmitting a cop to the Princeton packet town topics the times cronian Comcast media and by following a copy thereof with the clerk of Princeton notices have been placed on all window doors of the municipal complex laia can you call the rooll please miss Chen here miss Coulson Eve you're muted I am here Mr davage yes I am here Mr Floy here Mr Shriver here Mr tanom here Mr Stein here Miss Donna chairman Cohen here thank you okay uh we have one administrative matter which is the uh the year 2023 end of year report uh which uh Mr briger has put together it was in the packets and um Derek do you want to summarize that for us um I mean it was pretty much an average year um I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary as far as anything that we need to report back to the board I we always put our annual recommendations of the small lot stuff so um if you have questions I'd be glad to address them but I just I do not there's a typo in the resolution um I don't it's it has last year's dates um I forgot to change them um not all of them so I don't know if we can approve it at this hearing Karen or sure we can yeah sure we can I think it's it's numbered paragraph one right does it say 2022 any place else well it says uh to whereas the board is it prepared it's 2022 it should be 2023 right and then uh meeting is correct it's just 2023 instead of 2024 so right I guess if we have a motion we'll send it to the governing body in the planning planning board so we need a motion and a second and then a roll call I move I'll second it thank you laia m Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr davage yes Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver yes Mr tanon bomb yes chairman Cohen okay all right uh we have have uh one resolution tonight it's uh case Z24 d447 95 Jefferson Road uh block what is it 2302 Lot 25 the resolution was in your packets um if anyone wants to make a motion or if there any questions on it first of all if not if someone would like to make a motion [Music] I would but I wasn't there I'm move approval thank you do we have a second second thank you all Claudia can you call the roll Mr David yes Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver yes Mr Teno yes chairman Cohen yes no no you no you opposed it Steve so that's right oh that's right I'm sorry I voted against it that's right sorry about that okay have a second forgot about that okay all right we have um three hearings tonight uh the first is 105 lyen Lane it's case number Z 24- 453 block 11 what is it God it's dark in here block 3.04 in the uh R I can't read it 3B r3b Zone okay um is the applicant here or who be represent the applicant this evening I think was it Mr Kennedy on this one and there it is apologies I have to figure out how to turn my phone off from using its camera rather than Zoom so give me one second I'll fix that okay and well Mr Kennedy's doing that I'll just note that the um noticing is in order and the board has jurisdiction tonight okay good and Derek will swear you in um do you swear affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful I do thank you thank you okay good evening should I do the memo Steve or yes please okay um the applicant is 105 Linden Lane LLC they are seeking a C1 variance uh request from a required parking setback to enable the construction of a new accessory dwelling unit an additional variance is requested to alter the principal dwelling entry which is currently oriented to face the street to be placed on a well perpendicular to the front porch that does not directly face the street um as mentioned earlier properties in the r3b zone in the former Princeton burough the subject lot is non-complying with regard to the required 60 foot lot area lot width the existing 50 feet and it's also non complying regarding the lot area requirement of 7200 square feet the existing Lots 6,250 Square ft um it doesn't comply with the required 3:1 height the setback and the existing garage um does not meet the required 5 foot setback the existing is 2.8 so um the applicant is proposing to demolish the existing onecar garage a detached garage and shed and a proposed 796 foot one and a half story accessory dwelling unit will be constructed roughly in the same location as the garage the ad U features a fully finished basement containing one habitable room the first floor contains another habitable room consisting of uh the kitchen and living room and the second floor features a third habitable room which uh contains a bedroom the R3 Zone in the former buau requires one parking space for the existing single family house um the current parking space for the for zoning purposes is in the garage um the Adu ordinance permits a maximum of three habitable rooms and uh any habitable rooms in excess of Tu requires a parking space section 17A uh 387 re cars at a parking uh space be set back four feet from the property line and the standard parking stall is 9 by9 the following variances are requested they're requesting a reduced parking stall size of 8' 6 in by 18 feet from the standard 9 by9 and they are seeking a uh Point 0.2 foot setback uh as opposed to the required 4- foot parking setback and there is a um existing front door located within the front porch an applicant is seeking to remove the existing front door that faces and is or oriented towards the street to a sidewall within the front porch that does not directly face the street section b17a 403a section one um which applies to Lots on Halfacre or less requires that the dwelling and the front entrance shall be oriented to face the street and relate to the street um I just asked the applicant to explain how once if the the variance is approved how people you know get in and out of their cars um and stay on the subject property that's pretty much a synopsis of the case if you have any questions I'd be glad to address that board members any questions Mr Burger yes Michael yeah just um a question about the length of the driveway um just putting aside the um setback question the the driveway and can it can it can uh adequately hold two cars in a stacked way is that correct it could yeah it's just it's the Adu the intent I think is to have so one one or two different units so one you can get out without having to move the other C but yeah I understand I just wanted to make sure that it could without violating anything yeah there's enough there appears to be enough room behind the front yard setback to get two cars tandem to one another okay all right um if no other questions of Mr Bridger Mr Kennedy would you like to begin I would thank you Mr chairman um members of the board um we've got three uh folks I'd like to move over as panelists U one of them has their their hand up uh Chris Meyers uh um and as well as our architect Ronnie Breer and George jacamar our our traffic and parking expert um so as they're coming over um just want to thank you all um for your time tonight we have Ryan Kennedy from Stevens and Lee for the applicant here as Mr Bridger said uh this is an existing undersized lot uh in the former burrow at 105 L uh the applicant is proposing uh not to tear the house down or do much um with the existing home uh a renovation that will uh include uh some minor changes to the front porch um that as Mr Bridger said requires uh neighborhood character variance interestingly you know the existing front porch is remaining um the do is being reoriented oriented onto the porch in a way that we feel is both kind of consistent with the neighborhood we think that the the porch which is the entrance still addresses the street um but having the door uh angled essentially um allows the use of the what was likely a former open porch in a more usable way inside rather than kind of spilling into the the usable space and otherwise quite small house um as as as DK said also um the idea is to take the existing uh Garage in the back which is non-conforming it's too close to the lot line um and and rebuild a conforming Adu in its place um but but further from the lot line so it would conform with the rear yard uh sidey yard setbacks um with parking weren interestingly uh you know it is a new variance condition for parking setbacks but the driveway Remains the Same we're not changing it whatsoever um in location but um by parking two cars side by side um it does uh trigger technically a variance even though it's not in a different location uh and those two variances are one for the it might be a little unusual for the the zoning board to hear on on a residential case but we're actually there is a a standard stall size we seen more often in site plan applications but um we'll hear testimony from our traffic and and parking expert uh George aamar that there's more than enough room to get back there not just in the uh compact stall um sized space but because they're fanned out there's some extra space there as well and we've got some some diagrams to to show that um so on the setback side we we feel there there certainly is room both uh um to get in and out um and for the EV charger that's that's going to be back there um we'll have three uh Witnesses um uh now on under the name Chris Myers we actually GNA have uh uh Tom Pineo uh for the applicant um uh give a brief introduction then we've got our architect Ron Ronnie um and George joart as well perhaps we can have the three of them sworn in uh together at once um if that's just to confirm I see Mr Peron a mark Peron is Mr Peron testifying no not not not for us no okay very good um I'm the owner of 105 and a half Lyndon Lane the next door neighbor okay Mr Peron you'll have an opportunity to speak to this but not yet okay thank you all right uh Mr Meyers Miss breiner and Mr jacar uh do you all swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful Yes actually Tom Pino I do oh Tom Pino okay thank you all right yes I do thank you they'll be sharing a zoom account or zoom camera tonight uh Tom if if you could um briefly introduce yourself and and explain you know your connection to this property and and and what you what you put into this project what your plans are here sure um I'm Tom Pino I'm an owner of 105 lyen Lane uh we're just super excited to be presenting this uh this evening uh and building off of some of our recent High Performance Construction including the uh Net Zero project uh down on uh uh on gu Avenue uh that was featured on the sustainable Princeton Greenhouse tour and it will also be on the uh at the uh the libraries uh uh green um environmental film festival in April um in place of as youve sort of already heard in place of a non-conforming garage our architect Ronnie breiner has designed a fully conforming Adu that we are aiming to make on the operational carbon side 100% electric and Net Zero ready um we'd like to take advantage of the perfect southernly orientation to add solar panels to make it fully net zero um we are investing upfront uh in order to make the uh to reduce operational costs and operational carbon over the long run um on the embodied carbon side uh we are actually going to be using a carbon sequestering wood fiber continuous insulation on this building um to slightly modify one thing that Derek said yes we do aim to demolish the building but uh it is cinder block Wood and asphalt so we believe we can uh recycle 95% plus of this of the existing structure um the location on the lot is intentional uh in part to minimize the impact on impervious cover um as far as walkability it's hard to beat this um 105 Lyon is a 5 or 10 minute walk from the middle school the high school the shopping center um and Nassau Street 15minute walk to the university it's a great location that that absolutely reduces the need uh for a car um I think just in short that we we've set out to develop what we feel is uh a a model project for uh sustainable development um with proven and repeatable this is important proven and repeatable materials and methods that we hope can show what's possible and serve as a model for and template for costeffective high performance low carbon construction thank you thank you um thanks Tom um unless the board has any questions for the applicant I'd like to uh start next with our architect h i one sec board members yeah Michael yeah um hello Tom um do are you just developing this or do you plan to live in it uh to we we plan to develop it and and hold it uh and lease it and how how do you control car size for that small space I think I'm GNA leave that to to George and and Ryan in the presentation I'm happy to weigh in after that but they're the experts and I'm going to let them speak to that if that's okay okay and maybe I missed it um while I was thinking uh do you plan to rent it out or sell it rent it okay as well as the house thank you and I have a question too what is the footprint of the existing structure and what's the footprint of the new one proposed Tom if you know otherwise perhaps I can have Ronnie answer that um I I don't know if sorry um you're saying the the existing garage versus the footprint of the yes I don't know the numbers we do have a slide in the deck in our presentation showing the overlay of those two things I I don't have those numbers at the top of my and my fing Mr Peno I just have a uh administrative question the application indicates the owner is 105 Lyon Lane LLC care of Chris Meyers are you a prin principal of the LLC or has ownership changed I'm a principal of that of that okay L of the LLC of the LLC okay thank you um do you want to answer that question in terms of the footprint and size or do you want to have the architect do that uh I I I think perhaps if if since Tom doesn't know off off off hand to testify I think we should have Ronnie answer that when we when we bring her up next there's no other questions okay fine thank you any other questions board members okay please proceed all right U Ronnie if you could I know you've testified many times before this board but give the board the brief benefit of your uh credentials and uh involvement in this project uh yes I've been working with um the LLC group for about a year on this project so we we put a lot of thought into it and um as that excited to present it tonight I am an architect of the small firm in Princeton I've been in business for 33 years and I'm a licensed architect in the state of New Jersey we'll obviously accept your credentials thank you Mr chairman um and as we start with with Ronnie and our slides um I'd like to uh put up our our our one um exhibit uh of our slide deck that we provided previously to municipality do you know how many slides that is off off the top it should be uh it if all goes to plan it should be 14 okay so that would be your exhibit A1 correct okay uh so Ronnie why don't me just start right if if you have it uh handy before we get to that point if you have a the answer to's question about the existing garage size and or what how big the Adu would will be yeah sorry I had to look that one up myself um the the garage is 347 Square ft that's the garage and you can see in this first Slide the little shed that's behind the garage so that's 347 on the first floor and the Adu is proposed Adu is 534 Square ft on the ground level on the ground level correct does that include the porch I believe it does the um okay thank you okay well thank you Ronnie uh so on our introduction here we do have an overhead view but I think we'll start by we could Orient the board to where we're looking at I guess this is the zoning map here showing uh in in yellow I guess the uh the R3 Zone that we're in and a blue arrow pointing to where this property is is that right correct yeah we can show an overall zoning map and the r3b zone and then we're moving into an area map uh the little blue box with the big blue arrow is showing the property um you could see as Tom was talking about the walkability oh one back to our neighbor that's that's pretty much for the area map um moving on to the neighborhood map you could see it's in a very much a residential Zone again the blue box is 105 lyen Lane see the existing house in the front and the garage in the back so here there's a this is an existing front view of the photo uh or of the of the house and again that area view so there's arrows on the left so that shows the the garage that's going to come down and then the the front Arrow shows the front porch that we're going to be talking about yes um from from go ahead from a visual perspective is is anything much changing to the front facade no it is not the the only thing really changing is the request to move the door that faces the street to the side of the porch it would be on the right side there you can see just the Little Dot in Black which is the mailbox that's where the door would go so I will point out the house is relatively close to the street it's about just under 26 feet away from the porch to the sidewalk uh the public sidewalk which runs all the way down here um so you're very close to the the the porch you can obviously see where the front of the house is you have a sidewalk that leads directly straight from the public walk right to the steps of the porch uh the steps go up there's the porch you'll see the door obviously from certain angles you would see the the proposed door as well so I think it'll be easy to find the porch itself does not change so it still relates very much to the street and the character of the neighborhood all right um going to the next slide this is a kind of a colorcoded shaded version of of the site sketch here you want to walk walk the board through um what's changing and what's what's staying the same sure the as we say driveway to remain at existing location the gray area is the existing driveway um it is not changing its location on the street it's it's the only only thing we're doing here is along the house we've made a bit of a green area and there was a small retaining wall that we're also removing this gives us more green space this also keeps this project within the impervious coverage so we're not asking for any variance for impervious it complies the red dotted lines show the garage and the shed which are non-conforming but are proposed to be removed and then you forming Adu um replacing the um I'm sorry replacing the garage and the porch of the Adu which is the lighter area faces the green backyard sighting of this Adu was was important for several reasons one we didn't want to change the gar the the driveway it leads right to the garage which now leads to the Adu the driveway is convenience and the parking's convenient to both the house and the Adu the backyard is quite pretty there's some a beautiful fig tree in that backyard and it'll lend itself to being used by again both the house and the Adu and that was another reason that we chose to put the garage on this side of the property it also backs up to but the neighbor's garage is there as well so you kind of have the the two buildings together together as they had always been and had always been [Music] designed right so next um I think we've got some uh floor plans of the ad itself do you want to want to take the board through what um what you've designed here so as as everyone has mentioned it's a complying Adu uh under 800 square fet the first uh A1 drawing is of the basement floor plan it has a bedroom it has a bathroom down there full bath a laundry with stacked washer and dryer a mechanical room and that is our one one room down there moving up to the second I'm sorry the first floor you could see the the side of the porch faces the street and you would come in there in through the door into a living dining kitchen very open space that is our second room there's also a powder room small closet and the stair that takes you up to the A3 drawing which is our proposed atticc floor plan which shows the bedroom another full bath and a closet um then looking towards the elevations here is the street side again you can see the side of the porch that we discussed the Gable faces the street so it's it's a welcoming view from the street it is a complying under 20 ft in height so it's not particularly large um again back to its a story and a half Adu then you can see the left side which is the porch facing the open area with its entry door windows and again I'm taking advantage of that open space and then we move on to the right side which is uh facing south as Tom mentioned the idea is to put solar panels on the facing south facing side the buildings was designed from day one with that in mind which is part of why the Gable faces the street to optimize the amount of solar panels on the south facing side um on the rear you could see the it's pretty basic on the rear you can see the egress um um I guess um I'm sorry the egress casement unit and the path out for the basement and then just the heavy dark thing pieces are um electric heat pumps and again as Tom said fitting in with a super insulated building um as and the propos to get to Net Zero as they're hoping to have thank you Ronnie now um we're going to come back to Ronnie at the end to talk about the front porch of the main house but before we do that perhaps if there's any questions for her before we go to our our traffic expert to talk about um uh the parking situation just a quick question on the uh on the elevation the the small black box that's hanging off the back is that a fireplace no those are um and sorry that when they get so small you can't read them very well these are um are our heat pump units Sano units okay provide the heating and cooling so they yeah know I know what they are okay they they're the condensing units sure yeah the outdoor condensing we're showing two there is the hope that perhaps they be Consolidated into one uh still working through some of that U HVAC engineering but but the Hope may be to combine them into one unit so we wouldn't have to and I would also I think we designed this Adu in mind to keep with the neighborhood I know we're here for a particular variance for that more for for the parking but I would say it was designed with uh keeping the neighborhood in mind and keeping with the residential character of the neighborhood as well well okay thank you I just had one clarification I think I noticed on the site plan two sheet I think the 534 square feet uh for the Adu isn't is not inclusive of the porch just looking at the table I just want to confirm that that's correct um I would have to go back to the table you may be correct because because we are allowed to take a 200 square foot exemption for the PCH and I know we did that so sorry back you want to say anything else so should we move on I have a question I'm sorry the proposed Adu porch area you're correct is not included it is 85.5 square feet Michael um yeah I'm I'm looking at um if you could put up the zoning schedule uh site plan on the left hand side I have a question about the site plan you talking about the actual plans or or one of our slides it's uh it's was in your packet I don't think you put it up there as a slide I might not have been looking I haven't seen it either um I will do my best I don't have that queued up but uh um perhaps if if you ask your question and and maybe Ronnie has the answer while I while I look for it uh wasn't an exhibit that we prepared okay but it is part of your application I I have the hard copy here I I I it is I just I don't have it on my screen at the moment I apologies okay it's uh my question's going to be and I I do hope you can find it um it shows the layout of where the cars will be and I'm having trouble seeing if both cars are parked there how do people walk from the very back of the lot to the street perhaps that is an excellent um uh segue to to George jamar's testimony because perhaps you're referring to if if if you're not referring to no I'm I'm not his his layout or or pictures are much more roomy than the Architects as far as let's let's go back for a second the architect is not um showing a c whereas George showing what I'm not showing any Vehicles so all I'm showing in the x is simply the parking space that were um requesting which which is smaller than the requirement size so we're looking at the 8 foot6 by 18t that's the X and the X which are the required size of a parking space not a size of a car which George will explain in much better detail now well I I think Ryan any any chance you found this I I I have just give me one second here um yeah because this it's it's two slightly different presentations on yeah know I I noticed the same thing when I looked at the site plan um yeah you can see it clearly on this so I think you're referring to this is this is a sheet from from Ronnie's actual plans this box here represents the size of a parking space like what would be painted in not a not a car is that correct Ronnie that's correct that's what I'm saying it's just showing that Princeton would like to have a 9 foot by 18 foot parking space and we're showing boxes that represent an 8T 6 by 18t parking space and and and Ronnie so if this were like a parking lot at a strip mall for example these would be parallel and those L would be the the painted lines of the side of the parking space correct at this point we are not proposing painting lines it was just the way we graphically tried to show the parking spaces located in the the driveway so we're just trying to show a graphic representation of of a box that's a parking space not Cars we're we're not showing that as we said George will speak to that a lot cars are small smaller than the than the 8 by 18 but Michael's point is very valid there's not a lot of room back there and um you know parking isn't always where you want it to be and if those cars aren't in the correct position it's going to be very difficult to get uh to come from the street and go to the uh go to the unit if you're pushing a baby carriage or carrying a suitcase or it's just very tight back there thank you clarifying yeah Ron we have this up just for the record which which sheet I have up here do you recall just so we can say that out loud for uh I believe I apologize I hav't zoomed in yeah if you know I think it's SP It's s SP2 or SP2 okay thank you so apologies that I have to do Michael are you comfortable with the answer now I yes I understand why that's different from Mr jackar and okay yeah with with that um George if you could um introduce yourself and and briefly go through I know you've testified before this this board and other boards in Princeton before on on traffic and access issues but give through your um your credentials and your connection to to this case here thank you uh good evening Mr chairman members the zoning boards yes my name is George shakar I'm a principal at bfj planning I'm a licensed engineer in the state of New Jersey I'm also a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey and both licenses are up to date I have worked in this field for more than 40 years you've testified Boris before so please we will accept your credentials thank you Ryan can we go to the next exhibits absolutely let me just um apologies for the when I switch between things it causes the screens to all jump so I'm going to go back to uh the next slide in Our Deck here George for you so this um the photo on the right shows the kind of an aerial view of the driver the car that you see there is on the driveway of this project you know facing the garage uh you can see the size of the car in relation to the width of the driveway there uh on the left this diagram show show the what we call the Turning path you know that's a computer software that we use that shows how these vehicles can make the turns in and out uh of this parking area I'll have more details drawings later on but you can see here these two cars in their parking location we we recommended that the space on the left be at a slight angle because that makes it easier to get in and out and and um especially you know to take advantage of the the width that's there it it it allows you know a little bit more room on the side of the both cars the cars here we place them in the middle of those parking slots and they're not the the drawings the drawing is not very clear because the the edge of the car is marked with a very thick line and later on you'll see uh a more detailed drawing with thinner lines that gives a better impression but I just want to mention you know these spaces that we propose here 8 1/2 by 18 ft uh that I would say is I know it's not standard in terms of your zoning code but it tends to be a standard dimension for parking spaces in situation where people Park all day long or you know more than 4 hours or 6 hours know typical Office Buildings residential developments where cars park and they don't go in and out on an hourly basis like in a shopping center in a shopping center the the the standard industry Dimension tends to be 9 by 18 and that's partially because you know we want more room there because cars go in and out more often the drivers are not necessarily very familiar with the layout and you know we won't have enough wi so people that with shopping bags can get in and out and in addition the reason we why in a shopping center layout you know where we have perpendicular parking we have 9t wide stalls is because we need we need to make it simple for cars to turn in and out you know they they need to make a 90 Dee turn to get in and out of the spaces here we don't have that the cars kind of go straight into the lot and straight out uh and that's why the 8 and a half width by 18 is a very appropriate width dimension for this location um the other thing I want to mention is that so these two cars can move in and out independently of each other there's enough room for them to get in and out independently of the each other so that's an you know is a plus for this particular layout the other thing I want to mention you know most cars they range in terms of width they range in the you know between 5.8 feet and 6.6 feet so you know most cars are you know 6 feet and a half the widest SUVs that we have are 6 feet and 9 in so even if you have an SUV in there there is still room left you know between the 8 and 1 12 and the 6' 9 Ines not a lot of room but there is room left and so the answer to the question that was raised earlier by Mr Floyd how do we control the dimension you the size of the vehicles we we we don't um we know that somebody who has a very large SUV will have you know more difficulty getting in and out which is true for you know many locations it's not just true for here but it's you know if you do drive a very large SUV you you will be in situations a little bit more difficult so here we show the dimension of a Nissan Pathfinder uh the next graphic um next exhibit oh here we have another photo that shows the two garages as they are today and the the driveway and I think what's important also is that the little wall that you see on the left side if I understand correctly from the architect that wall will be eliminated so that makes it easier to get in and out there's less of a risk that you you know bang your car against that little wall so that's I think is is a good Improvement the next graphic then shows a more detailed drawing here we show a Honda um Accord so that's a kind of midsize car and what we do here what you can see the lies are a little bit more visible the car is placed towards the left of the parking so so this is a kind of position that the driver would take if there is a passenger in the car and the passenger needs to get out on the passenger side you know the driver can shift the car a little bit to the left and that creates that leaves enough room for the passenger to get in and out and as you can see the driver as well has room to get in and out because of that room between the two spaces so there is flexibility in the sense that if you have an so this is considered a midsize car that this the Honda ACC cord has a width of 6.1 foot uh width so there is plenty of width you the space here between the car and the right edge of the parking lot is between it's more than 2 feet it's 2 feet and I think 4 in uh wids there enough to open the door um and and as you know is shown in the drawing we do I think this the applicant agrees to put a fence here or some kind of railing so that the door that opens will not uh cross over the property line the property line I think is you know to the right of that parking stall and you know the the applicant agrees to put them fence in there so that there is no such issue as and that's you can see it in the photo has been overlaid and that would be maybe 16 ft long you know just to prevent any doors whether it's a door in the front or in the back you know from swinging over the property line um so that's my testimony if you have any questions I'll be happy to answer I do just one one one for me actually I'll let you goad that I'll ask so um George then then one um your understanding is that there's room on our side of the property line to uh to place a fence if the board um or any neighbors would prefer that um without restricting um the ability of a car to get back there or encroaching on that property line is that your understanding that's my understanding yes okay and and also if you could talk a little bit about while we've while boxed in here are the two parking spaces I don't know if we've talked at all about this extra space in between um that is not technically part of the parking spaces but allows from additional maneuver maneuverability is there any I know you talked about the angled left space in terms of uh um making easier to back in and out and I think your testimony was that there you've shown that that's not a problem getting in and out but does it does that angled also give the advantage of of perhaps some additional maneu um space for pedestrians between the two spaces yes you can see between the two cars in the back you know it is is in the back you know it gets a little bit tighter but there is enough room for a person to pass but I think more importantly here it's to the left of the car that's on the left side that's where I think people would pass because if I understand it correctly the the entrance to the ad Adu unit would be on the left side of the unit so the pedestrians would walk on the left side of that leftand car what about the what about on the on the left hand side of the leftand car yeah that's what so they're going to walk between the car and the back corner of the house the between the car and that staircase that you can see there no I'm talking about I'm talking about the the car that's shaded right but I can that and then so somebody getting out of the driver's side would walk between the front of that vehicle and the corner of the house correct that's pretty George wouldn't wouldn't this this left space be the one for the for the main house that would actually go up these stairs at the bottom left here right that the because this is the the the applicant is going to be renting these spaces out they'd be able to assign them and is your understanding that that the particularly um we didn't mention the EV Chargers but uh the thought was that this one on the left would would probably have an EV hookup to the house and the one back here would be EV hooked up to the um to the Adu and then so the obvious kind of location for assigned spots would be the one on the right to the Adu and the one on the left closer to the door to the main house is that yes that's correct oh it's still pretty snug if somebody in the house comes down the steps and wants to go to the backyard but it's it's it's a workable situation dimensionally but in reality given how people Park I mean I I can appreciate exactly what Mr jackm said he's I believe he's right um but you're relying on people to park the way you're imagining it would work so it's it's still going to be a little tight back there but it is dimensionally workable I I have a question for um for your parking which is um namely one way or the other you're going to be backing along a long driveway and I'm wondering I know most cars now have rear view screens but is there some way to visually emphasize the boundaries so you don't sort of wander off that driveway my second question is if you back out into the street and there's cars parked on the street that can be very dangerous um so either you back out into the street or you back all the way you know back to your parking space one way or the you're going to be backing a long way you're you're correct and that is an existing condition you know that is the same today and it's the same for the neighbor's house that we look at you know that is a condition that exists today and um I think the one thing that will help obviously you know that little um um what is it this this it's not a wall the the they PVE the area with those rocks between the two properties will help obviously to maintain the driver that's going in reverse on the path you know on the driveway and then the other thing that I think is good uh in this case is that little wall on the left that you see there will be taken down so that you know if the if the car doesn't maneuver correctly that they don't at least don't get a stretch and so that they will notice when they do uh back up here that you know the tire will either you know hit that those rocks the the granite that you see on the right side and whatever will be on the left side without scratching the car where where is the property line sit in that little paved little Stone area between the two driveways um does the architect know the answer to that yes it's it's point two off off so it's it's pretty much just on the I would I don't know the exact thickness of that curb but I would say it's just on that other side um the driveway is roughly 2 and a half inches off the property line so it's it's that whole paved area primarily is is the neighbors correct it is a it is a very long driveway it presents a problem in backing up but again that's existed for many many years so yeah okay thank you any other questions board members okay Mr Kennedy thank you and with apologies for bouncing around we'll bring um Ronnie back just to talk about the to kind of end with the front porch um so uh Ronnie I guess on the left we've got the you know what the home looks like now what will continue to look like this porch that we're talking about and on the right the can talk a little bit about the floor plan and the and the reasoning for um changing where the door is to the existing front entry porch sure so the idea is with what people like to have today is a more modern open floor plan um where these new windows are going is about where the door was where it says from here so that would put you it it does this now you walk right into the living room houses have that it it it works it's just not the most desirable way to enter a home so this way you would come up onto the porch would be obvious that the door is to your right and you come into what is sort of naturally a vestibule uh with the bay window your stairs they're going up and then you walk into the big open space so it just makes for a more an easier of the house um not interrupting you know the living room and um I as again back to the point of it's 26 feet from the sidewalk to the porch and everything is in a line the sidewalk the steps there's the porch so again walking by you're still going to see the door on that side coming from One Direction from the other you will not but you certainly won't mistake where you should be going to enter the home so so Ronnie while the front door doesn't necessarily face directly the street the entrance though in your mind is that that front porch is that the entrance and the the steps and porch as an entrance still does relate and and and face the street right so the front porch itself is relating to the street the steps down to the sidewalk relate to the street and obviously the sidewalk itself leads to the public way and to the street so all of that very much relates to the street um so again back to the point of I don't think anyone will find it difficult to know where the front door is it relates very well to the street again 26 feet away which is not much I have two two quick questions um one is just a comment there's no closets on the first floor that I can see but that's that's neither here or there that's your decision those little pegs behind the fridge there Steve behind the where it says refrigerator RF oh and and move it there's our little pegs in our in our mud room so there is oh in the mud room okay and is there a door clet is there a door in the back to the backyard there is um if we go back a slide or two Ryan um but maybe yeah it's right there where Ryan so this is a um a patio door here and a People door there that goes yeah there those are the steps that are shown in correct and those are the STS yeah you're directing people to access the backyard that area could be a little tight but it's it's again like I said dimensionally workable okay thank you thank you thank you um unless there's any other um questions for for Ronnie I'm happy to to summarize and board members do you have any questions other Witnesses before Mr Kennedy summarizes you can take the screen share down thank you everyone um the two groups of variances here I'm sorry I have a question go ahead Stephen doesn't the or ordinance say that the total square footage has to be 800 square feet or less yes and we are at 70096 okay thank you very much Mr Kennedy go ahead all right with that just want to thank the board for hearing us tonight um a couple of key points about the the two buckets of variances first on on the parking side um uh this is an undersized lot U most of the Lots in this neighborhood are undersized by width we're we're 10 feet short of what otherwise 60 foot lot is is a a small lot to begin with and and most Lots including ours are small so the idea of a long narrow driveway is unfortunately uh the Common Place uh in in Princeton and these neighborhoods that's an existing condition we're not looking to move the driveway you know closer to neighbor or or make those changes it's really just the the use and I I think we've gone through um a considerable effort to show um that two cars work quite well back there um with the uh variances requested so those variances are the existing location of the driveway um which is unchanged it's an existing condition um and then uh the parking stall sizes and the testimony that we had from our traffic expert is that there is significant um room uh back there uh with those uh compact thiz stalls and by the way pron does allow compact size stalls it's just that for it's within the context of larger developments where only a certain percentage like 15% of the spaces could be compact well here 15% of of two is not something that makes any sense so we have two essentially sub small um slightly smaller six inches in One Direction and one foot in the other uh uh stalls that we've got the turning radius that show that you can both get back there um and that someone can uh can realistically um get in and out of those vehicles on a regular basis we also suggested and it's up to the board um what you'd like us to do but we would be willing and could fit um kind of an extension of the existing fence that's between the back uh two properties or of another type frankly uh along our part of the property on our property uh that that neither diminishes the amount of space available to that parking spot and would essentially physically ensure that someone wouldn't you know Park too close to it and swing their door into the neighbor's property now we're not looking to um to cause a problem for for anyone we want to contain our parking frankly on on our lot um and because um these would be rented it's the intention of the the applicant to assign spaces actually and we'll have a little bit more control over what they're doing back there because they will be uh lease agreements U that do that so that's on the parking side and we had uh uh some expert testimony on that um the Adu is compliant um I won't rehash the uh environmentally friendly things I'm I'm lucky to have a client that likes to do those things with solar panels and uh electric heat pumps uh for for the project um but ultimately what they're doing back there is is allowed as of right um and uh ultimately uh the the only other variants we're talking about out um which we think is more likely well the parking variances probably are are more on your C1 um on the hardship side because we are frankly an undersized lot um we hope you agree with our architect just that the orientation of the the front porch access just makes more sense this way and the the the goals of that ordinance to have a house and the door or the entrance the door the word door isn't included in the but have the entrance way and the the house itself Orient in face the street remain the same before and after it just it's a better use of the space to allow a a side kind of turn uh rather than dumping frankly uh visitors and and right directly into the the main bulk of the open space of the home um uh with that um again I'm very appreciative of your time here tonight um and of course we're uh able to answer the other questions you might have thank you R Ryan um there's one minor comment I would like to add what we are proposing is not compact spaces now the 8 and a half wi space is not a compact compact space are narrower than that so what we're proposing is a a standard space uh that is you know less than the zoning standard but a very standard space for this type of parking for instance the these parking spaces are larger than or I think the same size as they are in the township parking lot and they're definitely larger than they were in the old Municipal The Boro parking lot I remember measuring those many years ago so they are standard spaces they're not compact parking spaces thank you thank you George I appreciate that clarification what is a compact parking space I remember it it's it tends to be seven and a half feet wide and 15 feet long s and a half by 15 yeah I think that you know it could be seven and a half or eight but it depends on where you are you know 15 yeah s and a half by 15 yes I've never seen it I've never seen any municipality allow seven and a half foot space but that not you're not proposing seven and a half so that's fine yeah um one quick question the the paved area uh the edge of the driveway is 0.2 feet from the property line so that's two and A2 Ines and so you're going to put a you'll put a fence in that 2 and A2 inches if if that's what you're proposing so we we looked at it it's essentially the width of the uh the Belgian block that's on our property line we'd essentially take the you know remove a block and and put a post kind of in in the width of that current uh Belgian block curbing so there there's room for a for that there okay all right um at this point yes Michael I have a question um and I think I'll direct it at Derek to start with and Mr Kennedy if you want to weigh in also and it's regarding the parking um and whether a variance is needed for that smaller space if the driveway can accommodate two cars and sort of the space we're talking about is you know is is in the interior of the lot you can park can't they park a car there as of right without any variant and uh it doesn't violate any setbacks no I mean if they meet the four foot setback yeah they could park there that's your question yeah without designating that as a specific parking spot and I mean the ordinance speaks about unobstructed uh access so I mean when you have one family and you have a two-car requirement it makes sense to be in a driveway but you have two living units I think it you know the ordinance speaks about having each car being able to get in and out without having the other one moved so I think that and and is that relate to accessory dwelling dwelling units too I mean it's a unit I'm thinking you know they should be able to each get in and out of their house without having the neighbor move their space if we have control over it I mean there's a lot of situations in town where that's not the case but yeah they've asked for the consideration and you know it makes sense okay I didn't I didn't realize that M Mr Floyd maybe putting it another way just picking back on what what Derek said um we we asked for the variance for this configuration side by side essentially which requires the the small tweak to the the standard stall size I think you probably agree that most residential homes around Princeton no one is measuring the size of their stalls and they're just kind of using them another way to look at this though is that if if you were to uh and and likely people are going to park side by side anyway regardless of the side CU that's the the what's going to be convenient and functional but we didn't ask for a variance for the stack parking I guess we could have essentially asked instead of for this configuration asked for a variant to to to stack them essentially uh as well um you know that's it's almost six of one half dozen of the other we felt that this worked and functionally this is what people would do and frankly we would prefer as tenants to have them not have to jockey cars but you know I that happens probably all across Princeton uh on a on a very regular basis with these narrow driveways but that's not the variance that we asked for perhaps you could grant that but that's we we would prefer in the way we looked at it happens to be these two variances this way okay I didn't I didn't realize that you would need a variance for stack parking okay um any other questions board members okay Mr Kennedy would going to go into uh we're going to open this up to the public do you want to say anything again in L of the comments uh just just to thank you all again for your time tonight really appreciative this has been a honestly a pretty interesting conversation about how these how these driveways work so I appreciate the the thought of tonight no problem okay um we're going to open open up the conversation to the public if there's anybody in the ordinate audience would like to make a comment on this project indicate that by at the bottom your screen raising your hand and we'll recognize you to speak Gloria do we have anyone who's indicated they would like to speak yes Mr Brushy and Mr Peron okay please call on one of them Mr Peron your hand your hand is raised hi can you folks hear me I can Mr Peron if you're com can you give us your address sure uh it's 105 a half lyen Lane I'm the owner of that property I'm on the right side of the driveway that we've been looking at ton and do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful yes thank you so my concern with I have two questions and I and I just want to confirm the first one is that some of the plans I've been looking at showed the driveway at 105 lyen Lane uh being right up against the property line is that the case or is it going to remain where it is existing today remaining where it exists okay great so my second question is H how are folks going to exit the vehicle on the right hand side of that driveway without entering onto my property on the passenger side perhaps George we can have you um address that yeah um the if there's a passenger there um which will not always be the case uh the driver will especially if the fence is built that we propose as a mitigation measure the driver will know that it is going to be tight and the driver will slightly move the car to the left to make so that there's enough room on the right to open the door the drawing that we showed and uh I don't know if uh we can show that again uh show that car and that was a kind of a medium siiz this is a mediumsized car it's a Honda Accord and you can see it's placed on the left side of that space and there's more than two feet there it's two feet and three Ines uh to open the door and to get in and out on the passenger side right um and there's room on the left as well so I think you said earlier that no one can really control what type of a car someone is going to have right at that property they could have a um a Chevy Suburban something larger um what is the swing on that door if it's parked in that configuration will it will it will it breach my property line do you know that it may reach the property line and that's why we propose you know to install fence so that you know when the door opens the only the door will only be opening up to certain point but you can see from the drawing there's enough room for a person to get in and out do you have a dimension on that drawing George is there is there a dimension showing two Chevy Suburbans Park Side by Side in that in that driveway I don't think that we're gonna have two chabby park at the same time well they no statistic Al I would say it's are you going to guarantee that are you going to guarantee that is the developer going to guarantee that there are not going to be two Chevy Suburbans parked in that driveway side by side and that in fact when the passenger opens their door it's not going to overhang into my property if we put a f well okay you can't guarantee it but I can tell you that statistically the chances for two very large Suburbans to park side by side very very slim they're very very SL I'm hearing there's no guarantee I I'll represent that um the fence will guarantee that no one will open a door across your property line yes right Ryan are you running that fence are you running that fence the entire length of the property uh our proposals run at the length of the parking space if if there's something different that you'd like we we'd be happy to consider it to my question would be if if these if the occupants have visitors right and they would pull into the driveway how would they exit their car without entering my property so I think the fence would have to go the entire length of the property to prevent that I I suppose it would be the same way that someone would do that on on the the neighboring property it's really once you leave that back corner it is the same condition ESS neighbor property the neighboring property is a single family home right there's no Adu on that property there's no requirement for that so it's a different scenario than what you're proposing so my my suggestion to the developer and I think this would be worthwhile for everyone to consider is to move the Ado the Adu to the opposite side of the property uh to extend the driveway further down to where the garage is currently and provide enough circulation for people to exit their cars appropriately that would solve everything I think we're talking about tonight developer considered Paving the entirety of the backyard like that and and we prefer this um scenario it would be it wouldn't be the entire it wouldn't be the entire backyard it would simply be enough to get a car further forward to let a passenger out and not have any constraints it's certainly doable and you're you're de you're going to demolish the garage so that's going to go away and you're starting from scratch so starting on one side of the property the other is really inconsequential but it would afford you a more appropriate parking area right they would avoid larger cars being parked there it does a couple things it does add more impervious coverage and it does take away um any assemblance of a backyard which we Monica have you have you have you laid that out on a site plan to to understand what that would look like yes do you have that available to look at here because we didn't want to go that direction but we did I think it's I think it's an important I think it's an important consideration considering that what's at stake here with with my property well then would also it's certainly workable right it's certainly a workable option it would be a minimal impact you're talking just a couple of feet to get a car up to open that door no thank you for that I mean we we looked at that extensively and um uh particularly with the fence that would keep a door from Crossing into your property this is the I don't think you I don't think you have you committed to extending that fence the entire length of the property is that your preference well I I I'm just my my concern is is car doors and people spilling onto my property so I think that you know based on what you're proposing here you need to solve for that well they're only again my comment is is a fence would do that um it still requires the variances they're looking for but a fence would limit how a door would swing and how people would uh pass by and the other would be a change in the design which is purely up to the developer at this point and I will say that we would be willing to extend the fence further um you absolutely you know we again our our goal is to you know we I think we've shown that this is this works physically um supports the Varian and uh right they'll be owing this and living here and and having tenants that live here and we want to make sure that they don't interfere with your your tenants there so we'll make sure that I think a fence is a good way to do that that's not going to allow any doors onto your property right so Ryan you're proposing you would extend that to the to the end of the property of the driveway right from the is that what you're saying we we would we're happy why don't you tell us what you would how far you'd like it to go and then we could see if that makes sense we our proposal was to have it just where the parking area is because that's where where there would be two cars side by side so it would go to the end of the property towards lynon Lane there's an existing fence that runs between the two properties currently you would extend that fence on your side of the property all the way to where to where your your proper proper line ends on Lyndon Lane um perhaps a good way to place to stop is that there no one is allowed to park in the front yard setback so perhaps we take it to that house line where no one would be able to park from in front of there's technically no parking in the front yard well you can park on your property I'm assuming so it would go to the end of the property line no we're willing to put offence to the to the extent that to the place that the board thinks is appropriate I'll be honest that the the the applicant is very flexible on this well I don't want arbitrary by saying something but well there there's a real issue with people parking in the driveway and spilling onto my property okay issue currently pardon me I'm sorry an issue currently with that happening uh yes okay right also I think what we're trying to also solve for here is you're adding you're adding an Adu to the property right so I think we're all cognizant that you're adding additional occupants to the property and we're talking we're having this meeting tonight because part of what you're proposing is having two cars parked side by side on that property and the situation that's creating is bringing cars tight to the property line and they're going to spill onto my property and and and there's a risk associated with that that's the concern no thank you yes um George did you want to say something okay any other the other part to this folks would be is if I decided to put a fence on my property having the cars in such close proximity is going to result in damage to a fence I would put up so it's really creating a pinch Point here and uh is a real issue so I you know I I um you know this condition didn't exist in the past it's a real issue and a real concern for me and um you know I I think that the that the the zoning committee should take this into account and you know my my recommendation is to either have the developer run a fence to the end of the property at Lynden Lane uh or move the building to the to the other side of the property you're creating a situ ation where I'm at risk there's liability to me uh there could be damage to my vehicles parked in that driveway if they open the door too far people can spill onto my property twist an ankle sue me I have no idea but this is creating an undue liability to me okay that's valid I think your concerns are noted I do have a a question and it's kind of d tals um with Mr peron's question because it's about parking in the driveway and whatnot um how do you control and I guess it's on the developer owner that the Adu or the Adu and um also the the main house don't generate more than two cars they could generate four cars unless you're just not going to rent the Adu to someone with two cars have have you thought about or discussed that the because it is um going to be rented by uh by the by the applicant um that those are options you know including and they backed into this because of how the EV charges would work that one space would be assigned to the Adu that would be the right side space and the left side space would be assigned to other applicant um the leases can say and applicant is proposing to do this frankly that each one only could have one car it's um fairly simple to do that uh in terms of lease and that's that's how they were planning to operate the property um and you know they have a little bit more flexibility um because it is lease But ultimately you know if you look up and down the street that that is the condition that you see you know or want to commit it I don't want to make it for you um fine otherwise you know like everywhere parking people Park when where they want to in Long driveways fine that's that was just my question you know thank you the main house could have two cars which is permitted very possibly you're right you know and uh and the Adu can have two cars they just you're just putting designating the minimum of at least one but you know with the square footage you're allowed to do in the Adu it could very easily be a couple with two cars okay all right uh do you have any other comments Mr Peron Mr Peron do you have any other comments I I would say you know Stephen to to further Michael's comments of how many cars are going to park in this drive look my my intent here is solely to protect my property right and by adding the Adu and I'm not opposing the Adu okay uh uh what I'm opposing here is what the Adu is creating in terms of parking and the and and and the vulnerability I have on my property of folks you know visitors Etc pulling into the driveway not paying attention spilling onto my property um injuring themselves and the liability that I that I would would would take on from this Arrangement so um I I would hope that the committee uh consider either having the prop the Adu move to the office side of the property and creating additional parking area or having the some sort of you know a fence or a barrier running from the the length of the property to se separate our our two properties and prevent people from from doing that and um I appreciate your time uh you know my parents built the house uh in 1950 uh I purchased it from my parents estate two years ago uh I own the property my son is living there uh my long-term plan at some point is is to return to Princeton and and live in the house when I retire uh so it's something that I'm holding on to as um as an asset so um I love the town of Princeton I went to high school there and I wish not and in my vested interest is in seeing Princeton flourish thank you our your comments were very were noted I mean I understand your concern and I think it's valid quite frankly thank you you're welcome okay Claudia um anyone else indicated they'd like to speak Mr brussi a name why sounds familiar probably too familiar for some of you Bob Bob um if you're comfortable do you could just tell us do you live in Princeton now or outside of Princeton I'm outside of prin I live in okay and do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful yeah thank you um mostly because it's going to be just opinion um first of all um you know I think some of the comments that Mark made were were good I've known Mark since he was about the two years old and my mother-in-law owned uh the property at 105 Linden Lane for 70 years that a couple of years ago and so calling more um just from an information in in a nosy standpoint um you know to see what's going on with the with the property heard about the Adu and so forth and um I just make a couple of points one is is that Mark's concern I think can really be addressed uh when that wall comes out that little retaining wall at the end that is a huge obstacle to making the driveway more functional um the two parking places up at the end where uh George has said it's tight parking it is tight parking I've been in and out of that driveway you know 2,000 times um you know when my mother-in-law lived there and we would go to visit we would try to double Park up at the top it is tight but it is doable much more doable when that wall comes out um you know so if you were to provide a fence that goes down you know to within where the site triangle is or whatever your legal requirements are it's a much more doable solution if that wall is out which you which I think on the plan you said you were going to take out regardless of it it makes the Ingress and egress out of the driveway that much easier um you know the other thing I would just comment on that you know I went over with my uh my wife and my uh um sister-in-law today was that you know we are happy that you're trying to save as much of the backyard as possible so you know I kind of lean toward you know if you can put the fence up to accommodate uh Mark's concerns which I think again are are are valid um I think that does solve that and it will you know keep the fig tree alive which in our family is a huge thing the Fig Tree um you know so I'll leave it at that um otherwise I think the you know the plan addresses a lot of things from a lot of different U concerns so all you the only concern left is to try to address uh Mark coron's concern from next door so I'll leave it at that thank you Gia is there anyone else in at they'd like to speak there are no more hands okay hearing none we'll close the public portion of the hearing once again Mr Kennedy would you like to say anything before we go into executive session sure just want to thank everyone tonight uh including uh uh Mark the the neighbor for for you know the the time here tonight and and again say um the applicant is is willing to put up a fence as far down that lot line as makes the board um I don't know if make everyone happy perfectly but ultimately um the board feels comfortable with asking for um with input from the neighbor frankly we're willing to go as far down as we think is um makes sense I think at some point you get close enough to the street that perhaps um offenses is not the best idea but but ultimately we'd be willing to to do um what the board um and its uh professionals think you know with all the input that they heard tonight we we we um we feel that you know with the testimony tonight um which was I'll say um for for a a case like this perhaps um maybe not totally unusual but you know we we did put a lot of thought into engineering and making sure that we were comfortable and this board could be comfortable um that this site works both from getting in and out and there was testimony in that and in physically getting in and out of the cars um once you're there and and as an ultimate kind of guarantee to to bottle up that issue if there is one and I think the testimony one was that there isn't um that a fence would would not just um keep the parking situation because we're really only talking about the part where there is parking um the rest of the driveway and the drive itself is an existing condition but extending it further does address perhaps some of the existing condition that if you were to look up and down the street and see um stacked visitor cars um at other properties or even this one uh currently um offence going further down would address that issue for for visit or the the current um condition and the applicant would be perfectly happy uh to do that if that's what the the board thinks makes the the this application um work and and satisfy um the neighboring property owner that's that's ultimately what we're looking uh looking to do here um so uh with that on the parking and I'll I'll I know we didn't spend much time talking about the front door I sounds like that um you guys agree with us that that orientation makes sense and does fit the spirit of of what um dressing the street is is is meant to entail um uh but again with that I really want to thank you for your time um as as adus do go forward we're going to be talking about this more I'm hoping that it gets a little simpler and that not every application with Adu needs to bring in you know a a regional traffic parking expert for each lot you know it is it is challenging um this applicant did go and and and make sure you know and and check all the boxes to make sure that um they were comfortable and um you know the the attorney Mr Kennedy said he's kind of taking a read that we have no problem with the entrance way I actually do I think the code is very clear that the front entrance quote unquote shall be oriented towards the street it's very very clear to me and to take a complying condition and making it a non-complying in need of a variance is not something I'm going to vote for regarding the driveway I think you know Mr Bridges uh memo had the note in there it was a concern the setback I'm very happy to hear the fence that the applicant is willing to do um to help address the neighbors's concern um I hadn't thought of that because the offense will probably also restrict his use to his property because the driveways are pretty close on WID um but I understand um with this increased activity with the addition of the permitted Adu I have no problem with the Adu but it's increased activity it is a concern so the fence really helps um I do like the current layout um it would be hard to move it to the other side since this house already has looks like an extension uh that was added so it's it it doesn't work on the other side to me and this is the best place to put it um appreciate all these sustainable and environmental things and I think I'll stop there so I I I don't support the engines way I do support um the variances other variance for the parking spot and the um setback thanks thank you um just a a comment Michael I I uh I generally agree with what you said the only thing about the front door I can appreciate um what the architect said um in terms of how the house would function as a big open space and entering into the side which creates a un implied sort of vestibule it just makes Furnishing a lot easier than going straight into the living room that's it's a it's a problem here's a problem for me and sometimes when I'm looking at drawings on any application unless it's directly related to what's being built outside and it it doesn't work type of thing yeah but I don't think we're to be too concerned with the applicants layout preferences that that doesn't support or defeat it doesn't come into play on why do something no no no the variance I I agree with you the ordinance is the ordinance I'm just creating I'm just creating a rationale but if the if the ordinance creates a problem and it's enough of a problem then the ordinance should be changed but notwithstanding that it is the ordinance and I I agree with you there I think the fence is although I'm not a fan of fences it it solves the problem I think the fence solves solves the problem that the neighbor has with liability which I think in this day and age is very valid okay yeah I I have a question about that which is um because these are narrow Lots you know a fence four five six feet high all the length of the driveway accentuates the narrowness of the lot and so I'm wondering if the same effect of preventing um people opening their door and stepping on to the neighbor's property could be achieved with a fence perhaps 2 and A2 feet or maybe maybe 3 ft but you know put some essentially that that there's no require the fence be very high that that that would satisfy um the objections raised by the neighbor and yet I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt go ahead go ahead I was done I was gonna ask Derek Derek don't you need a variance to go over four feet for the fence anyway it's six feet it's six feet okay I think most fences are standard 42 in are 48 are the the lowest you can get there might be 36 but I'm not sure okay um board members any other comments I I think yeah I think the fence is a is a workable solution for the uh keeping people from moving on to the adjacent proper property um it is a narrow space I was kind of thinking that maybe you could do a a very narrow hedge um that might be a little bit you know nicer looking than a you know vertical fence in that area you probably to irrigate it in order to make it to grow but you could basically create a living fence that would separate those two properties and would serve the same function and be a little more aesthetically pleasing possibly also thinking that um certainly with the fence up people could probably passengers could get out of the car before you pull all the way forward to the Adu might be a little easier for them to get out of the car than walk in so I think the fense would actually change behavior in a positive way to get people to you know to to exit their vehicles before they get all the way to the very end where it gets as narrow as possible and also they're they're they're parking next to the other car so I think the the fence could serve a couple purposes both when it's cars pulled fully in and also just changing Behavior so people exit the car as a passenger um on the way up the driveway um on the the front door is I'm a little split between that I think that it makes sense from a practical standpoint um and then how it plays into the ordinance I think is um I'm going listen to what the other board members think about that and see if um if it's something that uh we should uphold or whether I think um you know the functionality that it provides would be a benefit and applicable for us to approve yeah I I guess I'll weigh in at this point because I Michael I when you say that you don't want to it it almost sounds like what you're saying is that you would be willing to consider it if it was um if it was a pre like if it's a pre-existing condition then we would we would potentially allow that change but since it's I didn't say that but that's no I I'm trying to I'm saying you didn't say that but it sounds like well if it's if it's what was the word if it's legitimate for it to be where it is then to move it I'm not using the right lingo but um tell me how you said it again if you don't mind I said basically I said the the code asks for the front entrance to be oriented towards the street it's it's not about the porch um at all as far as what the code says and I have trouble well I can easily how do you define that is it the door Sor do you do you want me to explain or not I do I do okay then what I said was to change a compliant entrance to a non-compliant requiring a variance and I also said we really don't have in my opinion I'm not talking about this application in general I don't look at in detail at drawings because what someone wants to do within their house is their business and I try not to let that influence what I decide to vote on exterior variances and the code does that you understand that yes makes perfect sense so it it does though now raise the question of what is the meaning of the word entrance here does that equate door or does that mean an area that is considered the entrance I I'm that it's a question I don't I don't know well I can I'll defer I'll try to answer it and if Derek wants to jump in the code speaks to porches it speaks to walkways it speaks to entrances it separates that out and it says dwelling entrance does entrance is it synonymous with door or is it an area that's what I wonder I almost I'm picking up actually I think on what the um the architect um okay but it's still it represents the entrance in a sense the way that it the way that it looks with the walkway and well I think what happen part of the things with doorways and entrance ways the warehouses built that took advantage of a loophole and put the the doors all the way on the side of the house like those Valley Road houses next to but so the entrance and now I'll defer to Derek the entrance is the entrance door I agree with M that's why it's a variance that's why it's that's why it's there yeah okay I have a question oh I'm sorry well I'm not quite done though I I feel like this there was a lot of thought that went into this I feel good about it I don't know whether if there's a certain amount of variances that we uh if if I feel like there may be Prejudice at times against there being a lot of variances but um I feel that especially with defense I think that hopefully would address the the concerns which I hadn't wouldn't have hadn't thought about um of the um next door neighbor I think that's good and I when I looked at it earlier today I didn't kind of understand what the squares that had that were representing the parking spot not what size of the car would be so that relieves my concern about that although it you know I think I don't think anyone including the people who designed it would say that this is um spacious but I think that's almost the nature of what it's like to live in that part of the of town um so I'm I I'm if we have a motion to approve I'm going to vote in favor of it what's your feeling about the fence or no fence well no I said I I fence sounds like it would um address could especially I think a fence rather than um a hedge because I I immediately thought well it would have to be a very strong hedge um not to be knocked over by a door that would be open so I think offence is is much more appropriate um thank you comments any more comments someone would like to make one yes please Bernie uh yeah so I I agree that the uh the fence at an appropriate height and length will address the um the parking uh control um as far as the entrance goes I I I I do think that there's some um difference between an entry that is totally um like those sideways houses that you have to clearly walk all the way around to go in the side of a house and it's clearly you know turned to not Orient to the street this uh clearly has an entry um sequence that is addressing the street even if the door is 90 Dees um I I think it's presenting as a house with its face to the street yeah um so I don't um I I don't have that issue with it although I I can understand a different interpretation it does improve the interior layout of the house I have a question actually of Derek Derek how does the the front-facing door and I believe it is a door that is the entrance how does that relate to the Adu Eric you're muted the Adu can't have a door that face two doors can't face the street so the ad would have to have a side entry door got it thank you I have a comment I have a I'd like to say something and Ryan kind of Mr Kennedy kind of triggered this in saying that this is we're going to be facing a lot of these in the future and I'm concerned that just because an Adu fits on somebody's backyard if it doesn't work with the lot properly and in this case I don't think it does because I think parking will always be a problem there but I I'm just wondering I mean by right if you have a if you have property that an Adu fits on in the backyard does that does that mean we have to kind of uh go along with it if we it to support those kinds of ideas I don't think it works I don't think the parking will ever work I think the question about what kind of cars I mean you can't regulate where people are going to park and how many cars they're going to own or what size the cars are going to be and so I think even though that the Adu works in the backyard it doesn't work for that property and I think we're going to be facing that on um you know a lot of lot of these cases going down in the future and I'm not going to vote for positive but I don't think it worked I don't I don't think the I think the fence is a is kind of a makeshift kind of solution to a problem I just I just don't think that parking works well Derek I mean the adus do have to meet certain bulk standards as well correct correct the the ad can be placed on you know substandard lots that don't meet lot area or lot withd their lot depth but they do need to meet the setbacks and their specific requirements for adus um the adus only require parking if they have three habitable rooms so if if a habitable room was dropped uh there's no parking requirement um so I mean you have to view them on a caseby Case basis and examine the facts in every case we're going to they're pretty popular and you know sometimes people need variances so we'll just have to look at the positive and the negatives and and make a decision as we go forward the Adu ordinances here to stay and and uh they Chang the whole nature of single family areas but they have to sit on a lot they have to work I mean it's not just a matter it's not a right by Nature that you can pop of course but you we can get into the whole validity of adus and what they're trying to what they're trying to do but I'm not against I'm not against the idea of the Adu I think the I understand what you're saying has to work on a lot it has to work on the property and this one doesn't work it as configured it doesn't work because that parking will never be resolved with a a temporary fence that is not a resolution to what kind of cars are parked in that drive we can't regulate that the neighbors the neighbors concern is valid though no I agree and I that's why I think it doesn't work what what do you mean by temporary fence or any kind of fence I mean it's I mean I don't think the the fence doesn't solve the size of those parking spaces and I don't think you can regulate the size of the car or the or even you know statistically prove that two people aren't going to have SUVs in a F-150 parking there and and for those reasons I just I you know I just don't think it works I just don't think that parking Works has nothing to do with the fence okay I I have one question for or or a request that is part of your discussion uh this be consider um the applicants argued that the parking variances should be considered C1 variances because they've argued they have undersized lot withd and lot area uh I don't know if they're making the same argument with respect to the front door orientation so if uh whoever makes the motion whatever it is if it's a motion to Grant all requested relief I would just ask since I'm preparing your resolution what is your thought about that variance meaning do you think that that's a a C1 type of hardship or is there some other reason now um I person too that that that's you know that's what justifies the variance I personally don't think it's a C1 type of variance well then perhaps I don't know if you want to have Mr uh Kennedy trying to explain to you what the basis would be as a C2 V yeah the board could you know right pick pick a purpose of zoning that they think is met but perhaps it would be best for Mr Kennedy to um or or Mr jacquar because I believe he is a planner he holds a planning license but somebody to explain to the board what they believe um what category they believe the front door orientation would fall within certainly and and as um I I think in one of the many summaries I attempted I I did you know there wasn't a lot of discussion about the front door but I I did uh Le intended to suggest that C2 was was more uh appropriate it's one where um uh we had testimony about the the both the positives and negatives but but ultimately we feel it's better planning to allow these um this particular change with an existing building at this location the applicant could tear it down and build something totally compliant their choice and the benefit of um of of reorienting the existing space for U um the environmental benefits um and to adapt it for uh this new use without destroying it or or building something totally new um does then um bring in the the orientation that Mr Floyd said of the Interior Space um I I I I understand what he was saying and I don't fully disagree with him frankly um normally we're not looking at what someone's using from a from a use perspective but you heard about by reusing that existing space there with that configuration of the front porch and the what was likely a enclosed rest of a front porch off to the right um by diverting the The Pedestrian tra entry traffic towards the the interior steps you create um um a kind of a a space there and a bit of a vestibule rather than just kind of opening up directly uh in into the main space so I I had suggested and I while we are undersized and there is a maybe some type of mini hardship of the existing building that close to the front of the street and not having really room to do something else ultimately though C C2 the more flexible um variant is the one that we we feel is is from this one Mr Kennedy with you within C2 are there any particular purposes of zoning that you feel are being Advanced here and I ask that uh being mindful of the fact that as you pointed out there will be future um Adu application so I think that um it would be helpful to the board just to understand what purposes do you think are being promoted because I understand you're saying generally better planning but sure the more uh efficient with apologies I I don't have the ordinance in front gotcha gotcha well we've got safety from fire and manmade disasters adequate light air in open space we've got some more you know population densities sufficient space for variety of uses Transportation Roots desirable Visual and environment preservation of historic sites energy resources planned unit development senior housing renewable energy recyclable materials various planning tools clustering development rights light size averaging and something about military facilities so is um we we do we we do have a planner on here but I'll I'll keep vamping on on his uh behalf but ultimately um uh the ReUse of this building that that is a a rather than rebuilding something fully compliant and tearing down what is there um is as the environmental recycling benefits of of that item uh the the air light and and open space and adequate spaces for for uses element is is promoted ultimately by still having that front porch but allowing people to U enter the home without going directly into the living room right up um up the gut essentially those two predominantly okay thank you Michael yeah sticking with the C2 and you know I understand the the various purposes you know of the land use that can be cited but the introductory paragraph to me is more important and more to the point um the applicant must establish that the application one relates to a specific piece of property that question regarding the door does this specific piece of property really need a side entrance door in the front um number two the purposes of zoning and the mlul would be Advanced by a deviation from the zoning ordinance requirements now is is is is the purposes of zoning Advanced by the door moving to a non-compliant position three that the variance can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good the public good and I learned this from a planning board meeting last we is the general neighborhood it's not the people that live in the house and that was explained by Jerry Mueller uh the attorney to the planning board that the benefits of the deviation would substantially outweigh any detriment um five that the variant will not substantially impair the intent and purposes of the Zone plan and the zoning ordinance essentially the focus of granting a C2 variance should be whether the variance reflects a better zoning alternative for the property which will benefit the community That's the basis or the way to do or I think to do the analysis well I would certainly agree with you and and and uh I think Mr Bridger would too because I think that's how he phrases it when he goes through the C2 variances yeah I I'd say again the um purpose a uh the appropriate use of development of lands in a manner that will promote the public health safety morals in general welfare is Advanced by the ability to reuse this front structure um um as a a more usable modern entrance without rebuilding it um again to provide adequate light air and open space again that is the preservation of the existing porch structure um the use as a porch and as a an entrance but also to have a door that allows the family living in this unit to um have some privacy by having it not directly open into the where on a narrow lot has to be the only living space um uh that's a and c and um to promote a desirable visual element through creative development techniques and good Civic design Again by keeping that open porch there rather than perhaps enclosing it which we they they could do and putting the door there and enclosing that vegetable vesile to create that barrier in privacy this design allows the entrance and privacy to happen this way while still maintaining the open front porch that um the master plan over and over over again looks to incentivize and keep uh from a street capap perspective um and then there was there was kind of extensive testimony both on the the visual look which is almost imperceptibly different in terms of a signal that this is where one enters the home um and the open front porch area that is used as a gathering space uh for maale for neighbor for discussions um that is the the the ultimately we believe the the point of those um requirements um and if you were to balance the the negatives which we believe there are none in this case that that there's no no harm to the Zone plan at all with this Arrangement um and uh with with those positives that that we we come to the conclusion that we have and I'll also again just point out um there is an and in that section so that's the that's the clause and and part of neighborhood character that does two things one of which well again we might disagree but we didn't challenge this as an interpretation um doesn't include the word door it talks about entrance and I think there could be some um if not disagreement on what that means at least understanding that the intent is a place where one that signals entering a home and and accessing it in a street friendly neighbor that neighbor or way that relates to the street that comes to the um um um friendly inviting entrance that Princeton and its master plan and Zoning are looking for most of the variances that you see in this regard are not about this door orientation I mean there certainly are some um but and I I hate to cite specific examples but often this is the the Clause that looks at how the house addresses the street right where a house is turned to not address a street or doesn't have a front porch or that front entrance um so there are in that there are probably several I'll say components or maybe strikes in this neighborhood character element one is the whole orientation of the house the next is this entrance area isn't there and then probably the last one which is the only one that doesn't have the word in the ordinance which is door which is which way does the door go um uh so here the house addresses the street the entrance way and porch addresses the street and in a way that from the photos we showed you couldn't perceive any difference of the door we believe still addresses the street but doesn't face the front uh uh the the the front door for the reasons that we think the positive reasons that we described and I I don't want to end by quoting you know meatloaf but you know two out of three of those reasons are are aren't ain't bad and and when you're looking at you know the the reasons for the ordinance um and the types of variances that you might also be looking at which is turn the whole house or have a porch That's you know Midway up for a driveway a car Centric idea that's not what this is all of the things that we see as reasons for this provision we hit and and again while we we kind of disagree from a technical perspective we didn't we didn't push that here because we think this is better planning and makes more sense um um but but ultimately if you look at those steps of what that's trying to do we get almost all of them um in a way that we don't see any and that we didn't H any negative um other than just in general obviously you want to have fewer variances than than than not but beyond that uh we we we can't discern any negative um from from having this orientation wow a very interesting explanation um I I did wonder if door and entrance really were were exactly equal and I I I'm not persuaded they are I I think that what you said about the sidewalk and the whole orientation of I mean if you can show me where I I I think there was a there's been a lot of effort gone into making this work and it doesn't work in the way that it would if it had an acre but I think given what they're working with it's um I I give them I give them a lot of credit for trying to create something that I think has a lot of positives I really do Michael yeah I think you know people are entitled to their opinion I I I do recall earlier Derek said it's a it's about the door it's not about all those other things as far as the orientation of the house well we got a porch there so like I say you're entitled to to your opinion but don't forget which is zoning officer told you what it's about the interesting thing is from and I agree with you Michael um when you approach depending on how you which direction you approach the house from you can actually see the front door you can identify the entrance to the house the other way you just see steps going to a porch doesn't have to be the front door and the intent I believe is to have that visual identity of the door which is in my opinion the entry to the house visible from the street in all directions and and faces the street well also got you got to read the code if you got no no no what I what I'm saying is yes it faces the street because the side approach does not face the street and is not identifiable from different directions when you approach the house a quick question anybody can vote you know any way they want to I'm I'm just well I I have a question could you we shouldn't hang code itself okay my question is two wait wait George hang on one sec Michael will you repeat the last that I didn't hear it I said the whole orientation also includes if it's face basically facing front what's front it's relationship to the to to the street yes yeah okay so facing sideways is not that relationship to the street yeah it's not facing the street okay George yeah my question is if you keep the front door and add a side door on the porch would that create any issues would that even require a variance me have two doors on the porch no one door porch and one door um where it is now you keep the door you have and you add a door two doors yes I guess do that that would be that would be Mighty weird that's what that's kind of the the question I had I it's kind of an odd question but what if yeah is it you have to actually end if you did that orientation at a door on either side and the door that's facing the street that was inoperable but the door in was to the one to the right they want to put in and on the back side of the wall actually had it look like a wall from inside the house I'm not saying it's the right approach it is still weird but how does that play in the zone plan I mean if you're it does it actually have to go through that door or if what if there two doors you could pick you could pick and choose how would that play with the ordinance just getting this is getting way I know it's silly I mean look I'm reading a d dictionary definition from Oxford door an entrance an entrance is a door or a gate that leads you to some place so evaluate the negative and positive criteria two more cases sorry but uh yeah we we really gota I wasn't trying to start a whole another conversation but it just it's very clear it's very clear to me that the entrance is a door and and quite frankly the the fact that it opens into a big room is just a a function of what the developer chose to do take down all the interior walls and make it a big open space and we don't consider what's inside all right well unless there are any other comments does somebody want to make a motion St I'm sorry to interrupt Mr Peron has his hand up uh I don't know that's your sure please be brief please buddy could you bring him over please I'm trying thank you but we're not in public session right now we're in no we're not I would think we can let him speak I mean he's he's the most affected immediate neighbor hi sorry about that folks I I just wanted to make mention I forgot to to indicate it earlier that up until about I think eight years ago there was a uh a hedge that divided the properties that ran right down that um Center Island so there has historically been separation between the two properties to prevent doors and people from spilling onto each other uh until the Hedge died and and uh Mrs feder Rico and my mother uh were well into their 90s and didn't want to fuss around with the Hedge anymore so it was taken down but but the Hedge was on your property obviously well you know it's interesting and I and I don't you know I I'll take it for what it I'll take it for face value what we heard tonight um you know I I don't know because the uh the Hedge was up um there was a dirt Island that the Hedge was built on and then the Belgian blocks I think the Hedge came down and the Belgian blocks went in so I have no idea how things may have shifted uh but you know I just wanted to throw that anecdotally that you know there was always up until recently separation between the two properties to prevent you know the situation I'm concerned with okay but thank you longer s okay thank you I appreciate it um that's interesting though um okay we're back to a motion anyone well I would make a motion to approve it um and to withdraw the option of I don't know what the right language would be the option of having the door moved what what what do you mean withdraw you mean you want the side entrance or a door facing the street I I know what I want but I'm I don't know what I'm hopeful that if that part was taken out that people might be favorable If Leaving okay but but right now having a door that faces towards the street okay that's what you so changing what was presented tonight and changing it to a front to a door know if that's it's just it's just denying right the variance for the door and approving the variance for the driveway setback conditioned one Whatever conditions or the other alternative is to do a motion but she's not proposing that that both of them get approved but I and I think some people have go one way some people go the other so it sounds like even what Eve what would you like your motion to be I would like I would like my motion to be approving actually what was proposed all right so your motion is to approve the entire application are there any conditions to your motion there was discussion about the fence there was also discuss question about um some kind of lease restrictions limiting uh how many cars to one car for the that I think we would we would want is the lease restriction all right polias restriction one and what about the fence the fence I guess there's controversy about exact how I it sounds like the fence should could not or should not be in the front yard setback that maybe it would end at that well I think we had discussion about the fence running the entire uh I guess entire length of actually I'm not quite sure where things landed with that yeah so that's I'm not not quite sure either but I think the neighbor wanted it to run the entire length of the common property line um so someone can correct me if they have a different understanding of it but I'm just trying to get evees motion down we can see if we have a second so that's my understanding of what the neighbor wanted and I has to approve it but I agree Karen Eve do you yes I think that sounds I think that sounds right all right is there a second for this motion now well okay i' second that motion okay if now we can discuss the motion well right yes I mean right now we're you know we're in a mode where someone made a motion in a second so we can discuss it unless somebody wants to call a question and says I don't want to talk about it anymore but um yeah you can you can discuss it I I have a question about the when you said the fence running the entire L of the property line right you I I I don't know what height we're talking about now is that like six feet I think you have to stop it a good amount short of the property line in order to have the sight lines and uh so I I don't know exactly what that distance needs to be but it depends on the height of fence yeah could depend on the kind of fence as well I mean there could be a you know like kind of a a you know more transparent I mean it would if it were you could fence could be six feet high at the back of the property but it really shouldn't be more than three or four feet high at the last 20 feet of the driveway because there's two parallel dri ways there's sight triangle issues and you can't see what's coming so so probably would should be no no more than three feet at that point yeah yes sir like the last 20 for the last 20 feet the first 20 feet yes correct first Eve does that sound reasonable yes I would I would suggest but um that it might be to the property line or such lesser length as the neighbor so they don't have to come back if the neighbor thinks yeah I really don't want it to go to the sidewalk you know leave some leeway in that condition okay yeah but who's but then who's making the decision Michael you're saying that it it would be with the agreement of the uh U Mr pero but it depend it depends on his agreement he have to agree to it yeah okay the only reason we're saying to the property line is he he initially said that I'm hoping he kind of reconsiders and it's shorter but I'm okay with it going to the property line that that was just suggest and if I can ask what what's the justification going to be for granting the variance to the front entry door well the the yeah I don't I don't know the unfortunate thing um I support the the one variance and I'm voting no on the other on the door so you know initially initially as I said as and looking at that how that whole entry functions um I I initially supported the side entrance but again discussing in context of the ordinance it's very clear that the ordinance wants the door to face the street and so in order for that to change there's got to be some compelling reason to have it change so I am worried about pushing for that right now because I don't want it to shoot the whole thing down actually so I'm a little bit concern how to proceed I know but we've got a motion in a second on that now so can we with looking at the way it looks out with the board should we is there possible we can I can revoke my second so that we can maybe change it so they can we pass this and we can move on well I I think at this point perhaps we might as well just take a vote on this if this doesn't pass then someone can now propose a new motion so okay I think that makes the most sense we can't we can't wait hold on excuse me we can't amend this right now since we been seconded already if we're following Robert's Rules of Order yeah we've got a motion in a second and it's on the floor now so would you can't you withdraw the motion are you withdrawing your motion e and then you you put a new motion on well are you withdrawing it I'm not clear okay I'm going to withdraw the motion okay just if I can make a point of order if if that motion were to be brought forward and fail a second motion perhaps approving a different subset of variants could could be done correct correct well that's what I had proposed but I just want to make sure it didn't sound like that what you had suggested no that's what that's what I believe Karen did suggest but this might be easier yeah okay so Eve do you want to withdraw the motion um yes all right do you want to make another motion or does someone want to make another motion I I'd like Mr davage to take over now I I guess well I mean I guess we'll go with I think with the second question well the driveway as we've stipulated with either with a fence should be determined the length by the uh agreement between the the neighbor and the applicant um and then um not accepting the uh the for the the side facing door so that's not in okay just just one question about the the Dragway it's subject to agreement with the neighbor but the concerns that Derek raised such as it shouldn't be more than three feet for the first 20 feet um suppose the neighbor doesn't want that suppose the neighbor says no I would like it to be six feet the entire length I I I think that there either the zoning officer has to have some say in this or we need to put some standards so that there isn't a concern now about blocking site distances because that's you know the neighbor feels that that would be best that's the best protection for them but it may not be the best protection for um if if we're looking for a condition that the applicant would would easily stipulate to is that we would be happy to have the whole length in in working with um the zoning officer and the staff to find the appropriate place um for it to to end and that could include input from the property owner but I we share Miss Casey's concern that we don't want to be in a situation where we never get anything approved in an unsolvable condition I I agree that seems to make so height and length confirmed with it Z right okay because it could also be a hedge maybe they want to go with the Hedge option who knows they don't have enough land for a hedge they 02 feet I thought there was one there before okay fine there is on the neighbor's property but not on the applicant's property right okay well foret put in like to reiterate that I still don't think the parking works okay thank you so second no go ahead Eve please does this need a second then yes well let's I just want to make let's let's just Karen so this motion is to basically approve the parking the side entry to the the entrance into the Adu but not the front door location as it's currently shown but it has to face the street right and then the fence situation that we discussed yes correct okay but they're not mean the only variances that are being sought are for the parking stall size the parking setback and the variance for the existing front door to change its orientation that's what the applicant is seeking that's what the zoning Officer says is required the motion is to approve the parking stall size and parking setback variances and to deny the variance to change the orientation of the front door and it has a condition that the applicant will work with the zoning officer to uh determine the appropriate length and size of the fencing between the two neighboring properties and I don't know does this motion also include a condition in the Le restricting um or or requiring only one car for each unit well I think that's something that that they the applicant had talked about so I think we should incorporate it into the all right so Jim you're comfortable with that with in your motion yes okay all right okay we ready now we're ready for a second now we're ready for a second unless there's some discuss is there any other discussion of the motion Michael did you indicate you wanted to speak no I was going to Second it let's okay all right so let's go for a second at this point Michael are you second Michael just said he so we have a motion we have a motion we have a second does anybody want to hear the motion again or are we ready to vote okay cloria call a roll Miss Chen yes Miss Coulson yes Mr davage yes Mr Floy yes Mrs Shriver no Mr tenom yes chairman Cohen yes it is approved thank you okay thank you all for the spirited discussion um much appreciated the time tonight thank you so much okay thank you all okay do we want to take a moment here take five it's 10 o'clock let's take five minutes well it's 9:59 at 10:05 we're going to come back okay oh for e and okay than B oh Lord long as we're sitting here can we chat I have a question for Michael Floyd um actually George I think we are still recording now so I don't yeah we are recording I just see the recording light so I don't think chatting would be good right now all right do that offline Michael got me got me wondering how inflammatory a question you would ask oh it inflammatory definitely yeah um but I I I'll I'll chat a little bit um as as these assisted dwelling units are a learning process the planning board has a hearing on April 11th on even more complicated um you might want to tune in or watch the tape after the 11th right it's it's amazing this is the Cottage Court yeah yeah yeah yeah and there what is the Cottage Court I don't know what that is so Ying Street it's a subdivision but then subdivide the property and it's almost compliant lot size but a little bit little bit under but turning both subdivided properties into a main house in the Adu and putting the Adu in front of the main house oh that's the that's the uh yeah yeah that one was that heard by the planning board Yet Michael no they did a concept and then they had a they didn't start the hearing last week they chose not because they felt the document was missing or possibly missing they didn't have to consider but yeah I think everybody's learning how more complicated it is you know why is that why is it planning board and not us with requires a site plan anything over three units requires a site plan so we can hear up to like duplexes and that type of stuff or site plans with the use variant for f or use it's not permitted yeah um Steve a question since it's already 10 and we have two more applications to go uh and I is the board going to go till 11 tonight because if not then maybe you want to take jurisdiction of the last one and and I would think wait till 11 it's 10:05 now I don't think I don't I what what's the the board's favor do you want to go to 11 tonight we won't start any new applications after 10:30 so most probably that third application you're right we can take jurisdiction of it but we can let the applicant know that we're going to probably defer that till the next hearing well then maybe we should I don't know if they're here somebody must be here for it tonight I believe they are um so once we and we're taping now so if if we're going back in order now then um one of the applicants for the last case has his hand up um okay so let's let's see stop stop yes yes I'm here the the third did you have a question Mr de or I did not I just wasn't I wasn't oh no problem no problem then okay I wasn't sure if I was being called called to appear and to comment on this if you want to defer it to to uh April you know so be it okay all right all right okay so the if there's anybody in the a in the ud in the audience who's here for the third application that will be carried so well let's I I think what we need to do in order to carry it though um The Board needs to take jurisdiction tonight the noticing is in order for the application and if the board wants to take jurisdiction then we need to announce tonight a date certain for the hearing that way the applicant will not have to re notice so we're going to have to announce tonight um to what meeting is it being carried Derek do we have what's our April agenda look like well we have Valley Road coming back uh we have uh I think one or two other cases this this case will go before the other cases um so good will this case come before Valley Road or Valley Road will go first this case will go next and then the the case that's scheduled uh it's a lot area case would be the last case at this point but uh that's it well what is okay so what is the the date of the next meeting there April 24 April 24 all right so for the benefit of the applicant and anybody else who was listening tonight 403 Mount Lucas will be carried to April 24th 2024 the applicant is not required to R notice so um they will not be sending out any additional U notices to anyone thank you okay okay have a good night thank you thank you okay our next case is uh case number Z 24- 458 660 pretty Burke Road Block that 4901 lot two in the R1 that r1t zone yes sir okay the noticing is in order and the board has jurisdiction tonight very good uh Derek can you summarize your memo please yes sir um Dr song and Julie song are the owner and applicants of 660 pretty book Road they are seeking a C2 variance request to for the expansion of existing motorc Court garage to permit construction of a one Bay addition to the two-car attached garage and a second floor addition uh is also proposed above the existing garage the additions are an exception to the required motorcourt setbacks in the side facing facade length and the height to setback ratio property is located in the r1t zone in the former Township the subject Lots complying with the applicable bulk regulations the house is not complying with the required one to 1.5 height to setback ratio of the existing is 1 to 1.25 the applicant wants to add a bay to the existing two car garage that would protrude from the front of the uh garage and that is storage area on that first level and then on the second level they're proposing a 41 by 24 foot second floor Edition um this addition features a game room and a full bath The Proposal uh requires the the following variances um the height to setback the 1.5 to1 the proposed is one: one um the side setback facade the max length of a side facing facade is 40t that's a neighborhood character requirement the proposed is 41 feet 2 in and motor cord Heights have a restriction um of 25 feet in height the proposed is 26 feet4 and they also have a a uh requirement that they're they're not be habitable space on the second floor so um that's a synopsis of the case they're seeking to see two variants and if you have any questions be glad to address them I'm not familiar with the motor Court ordinance it's it's all about the garage setbacks it's from the neighborhood character um so um I don't know if if we can bring up Mr uh song's uh survey I have it I can bring it up Mr song we're gonna swear you in do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful I do thank you thank you so as you know Steve like a side entry garage has to be set back eight feet from the nearest facade the front facade and a front entry garage has to be set back 16 feet but on larger Lots they did provide a uh an option for a garage to protrude from the front of the house creating some like a a driveway Court in front of the house so um if he pulls up the survey we can show you what he's talking about it's an existing condition he already has what would be similarly called a a motor Court um but he wants to had one Bay so he would have three Bays instead of two and a small storage area on the first floor and then above it now where I believe there's is there a living area above there Dr song now or there there is not there's is a high high roof high ceiling high ceiling so they wants to add a second floor above it um can you see the survey I have it up on my screen it's not up it's not up on ours yet no it's not Shar um let's see just share your screen oh I'm sorry I'm sorry yep great and then I I'll put up bigger too there you go okay so you see how that the driveway comes in there and the house is somewhat oddly shaped I'm I'm just trying to categorize it it it reads like a motor Court um and he wants to do that little addition there and add a second floor above it and then I can show you it would look like that it so these two are here this is a side entrance and that we just add one here right now it cuts off right there and this is this is a heavily wooded lot yes so yeah sorry thank you so much presentation yeah yeah I mean I don't have much of one and you probably will be happy because it's so late I don't know you guys meet so late appreciate that I appreciate all your time to the board uh I really do um so you know we moved into this house in 2020 October and then since we've been living there unfortunately um there was a car thefts in our area we have three cars we have two garages so our car was attempted to Broken well there was a breaking attempt in our car luckily it was locked our neighbor actually that same night got their car stolen it was involved in a murder in Irvington so you know that got me thinking of well we have three cars I wish I had another garage because they didn't try to get into the garage we followed a police report that's on file so that's kind of the impetus for this um and then you know we have three young kids so you know if we had a third car then we could if we could have more space above that for them to get out their energy for all you have young kids that would be uh that was our our goal in all this I mean in terms of land to build land to building ratio we're on 2.46 Acres so I don't think that's an issue and in terms of per imperious surface coverage it's going to be placed on what's already driveway so that wouldn't change there so that that's kind of uh the request we have my architect couldn't be on the zoom meeting but he's on call he's been listening since 7:30 so I guess if you have any questions he can hear you and he'll text me any answers to that technically I don't know a lot about this obviously it's not my field of expertise wait a minute Mr song you said your Architects on another call no he's he's on this call he's been listening since me since I had why don't we bring him over and he can testify that he uh he's on a on a phone I'm not sure he can't because he's unable to do it on on the computer okay um well do we have any questions for him I guess that's one way to look at it the the the issue the issues are the variant it's a height to setback variance right and that's for the new addition to the garage as well as the exist in house or what please go through that one again excuse me excuse me yeah thank you um the existing garage is noncompliant with the height to setback and the second floor increases it slightly if you look on the survey you could see the house is kind of not squarely put on the lot it's it's kind of at a triangle or you know a diagonal shape so that close part where the addition is doesn't meet the height to setback and this increase in height in the addition increases that degree of non-compliance okay okay and then the other issue is obviously the added space habitable space over in the second floor over the garage now yes sir okay thank you all right Mr song would you like to say anything else no I mean that's I'm just going to keep it short that's that's basically what we have okay um board members you have any questions of Mr song or of Mr Bridger I have a question for Mr Bridger yes please um the motor Court um if I'm understanding correctly and reading correctly um you can actually have a three car garage and if I'm reading correctly you just can only have no more than two bays so if it's it's in your in your memo could they instead of asking for the variant just make um a large Bay entrance way you know combined with their addition because three three cars are permitted according to Derek's mem so Michael are you saying put a double door instead of a single door yeah and I I guess that's what the the co code left that option open because it says you can only have two bays but you can have three cars yeah that's three car garage yeah that's I don't know that's a question yeah I guess in my mind if you take a drive down pretty Brook Stony Brook pheen Hill anything around us the majority of my neighbors have three car garages and a lot of them have space above them that there's obviously living in so I mean that's the only reason that we thought about all this and when we propose it it bounced back so that's kind of that's I guess Michael what you're you're saying is in a sense it's a little bit of an inconsistency in the in the ordinance um but but unfortunately I I got to assume it was a purposeful inconsistency to force a double door rather than a single door yeah I mean somebody writing it it's it's not the most complex thing to digest if you're saying you can have three cars but only two interests I don't think that went over somebody's head who were hold on can I just I got the ordinance up or the section of the code now and it says motor garages on large Lots the applicability the following Provisions shall apply to Lots 125 ft or greater in width except Corner lots a motorc court garage may be located in front of the foremost portion of the dwelling the garage shall be oriented oriented toward the interior of the lot and not the street or the side of the property the garage shall be limited to parking for three vehicles the parking shall be no higher or excuse me the garage shall be no higher than one story in a maximum of 25 feet or a maximum of 25 feet is measured to the peak of the roof or the height of the principal structure whichever is less the garage shall not contain habitable space above and the bottom of the roof Eve shall not be greater than 12 feet above the average finish grade as measured along the foremost portion of the garage but if you look at the detail of the garage Court which you might not have it does show a three Bay garage with three so I mean I struggle with this neighborhood character ordinance um it's not a problem when you have you know a new house um but you know we we have seen these cases with you know people adding on to an existing garage or so it it's it's it's kind of a a quandry you know and it's something the Board needs to to think about so okay thank you yes sir Michael what do what is that what do you think about that um I don't know it's a quandry but you know I I'm not just speaking for myself I don't know what other people think yeah I understand okay uh any comments from any other board members I say for neighborhood character I think three doors of the same size looks a lot better than one door small and a large large double door um I think the from the general architectural standpoint I think three looks better than one small and one big well the way architecturally it's been presented with three Dormers three doors is more consistent but again then we get into the discussion of the habitable space on the second floor oh right yeah well what if it's 7 that is habitable space of a certain ceiling height right if it's shorter than what less than 8 feet then it's not considered habitable space no it would be five feet yeah yeah to the eaves so you could basically have a a slope ceiling and and uh those that space in the eaves would wouldn't be considered second floor okay but this is this is a situation where they want to use it as a playroom I guess is that correct Mr song yeah that's correct for the three kids yeah and you're you're right Mr Cohen the area is very heavily wooded so from the road I mean in the winter you can see the house but in the in the summer you can't really see uh you know much of the garages you can see the top of the house too from pretty Brook yeah so which section does you want want me to show my architect wants me to show you a section this is awkward which section yeah we can I saw the section on the drawings oh yeah okay yeah okay you saw it yeah I did that yes nope that's it that's what yeah he I did what he asked me to sorry thank you you're welcome all right so I guess let's see Mr song you want yes please what who was saying Steve who is that was it Michael did you say Steve yeah I did you you I keep getting uh breaking up transition a transmission but um if it's working now um I wanted I wanted to see if if the applicant can give us any other justification to have habitable space when the code you know I I don't have anything to hang my hat on to even support that when you got a code that says no habitable space okay that's fair yeah I guess the reason we thought of that idea is because when we walk around and drive around our neighborhood there are plenty of three car garages with hital space above them so I guess maybe I don't know if they were grandfathered in but that's the reason that we thought you know for our kids we wanted uh an open space for them well I mean for instance do you I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but do you have existing room within the house for the kids to play or is this right right no I understand what you're saying not not a not a large we don't we we don't have a large area like that this would provide a larger area for them to play in that's all not too late not too late to make it an Adu Dr [Music] s that that last those last two hours are kind of more than I I could get into I think so more than I have time to get into right um all do you want to so that's that's in a sense your justification for the space just the a a large open room for your kids to play yeah I mean there's no I understand what you're asking in terms of any justification but because we're putting the third car garage in and then our current garage has just big open space above it uh we just wanted to utilize that that that space basically since we're doing the whole renovation well we what do you what do you use that space for currently nothing there's nothing there I mean it's just it's just high high pitched uh roof line so you're raising are you raising the [Music] okay any other board members have any questions of the applicant I'm just curious uh the other houses in your neighborhood that have habitable space above garages are are those um Motor Court garages uh I don't I don't recall I just know that most of the houses the majority have three car garages and uh space above but I don't I don't know I'd have to go specifically look for that in this particular lot the the i i i quite frankly was not aware of the whole Mo Motor Court situation before this but this lot is a bit unique because the house sits all the way back on a very heavily wooded lot and and um so the uh so the impact of this on other houses or the area itself would be very very minimal I agree well if Mr song If you don't have any other comments we'll open it up to the public for their comments we'll see if anybody wants to speak about this Y no no I no further thank you very much all right so we'll open this up to the public uh if there's anybody out there who wants to speak please indicate it by pushing the or hitting the little uh raise your hand button on the bottom of the screen Floria has anybody done that there are no hands and Mr son can you stop sharing your screen please thank you all right so hearing no one wants to speak we'll close the public portion of the hearing Mr song you have the opportunity to kind of sum up um what you want to do before we go into executive session discuss it amongst ourselves and V sure yeah so once again you know I guess for safety purposes you know theft purposes I want to add a third car garage to the existing two-car garage um I want to put a room above that uh I guess reframe the roof in a sense and then uh you know we're on 2.46 Acres so I don't think it was an issue with the land to building ratio where the impervious coverage and our like I explained we're set back as you saw in the diagram and it's it's wooded and you can't see just the top of the house actually during this Seasons when there are leaves on the trees so you know that that's just our our request thank you for your time and for the late hour stay in you're welcome okay board members discussion motion well I'm I'm sure there's a reason why the says you can't have something above the garage but it doesn't seem to make much sense to have an open room I think I'd be more concerned if you were trying to put in an apartment of some type or some kind of living Arrangement but just to make it a playroom for existing space seems you know either we approve it and he does it legally or we don't approve it and he makes it into a place SP anyhow I wouldn't think he would do that I don't think he would do that either but I so I I kind of like this point I think it's Improvement that should be approved yes okay any other any other comments someone want to make a motion I move we approve the approvation as proposed as proposed okay is there a discussion of the motion before we have a second okay do we have a second of the motion I'll second it I'll second good who who is it Eve you seconded it right okay all right so we have a motion in a second um let's vote Floria okay Miss Chen yes M Coulson yes Mr davit yes Mr FL no I have no justification for the live habitable Space Mr stver yes Mr tenal yep chairman Cohen yes it's approved thank you okay all right so we're not going to hear the third case this evening so I guess we're adjourned any other do we have anything we want to talk about before we adjourn no thanks everyone okay we'll see you next month good meeting Steve thanks you're welcome about the uh the the neighborhood character stuff it goes all the way up it's ra and the RB zones are exempt and this is the largest residential zone so I think one way to look at this because I mean I you see people that have a two-car garage and they want to add another one to the side or one car garage and they want to add another one and they got to come get a variance I mean they have to do that but I think it like you guys picked up it has more relevance on a on a quarter acre lot than a two acre lot you know on a two acre heavily wooded lot yeah so yeah but my I struggle with it as a you know Quant you what I struggle with it you know how to doing look at it you know well what's what's justification I mean how do you justify you're just adding you're adding more space for your kids to play is that justification I don't know I'm just saying I mean you know I I see on a house like this I see a bigger house relatively not a tremendous house but I think proportionally if I look at it that way putting a room over the garage to sort of you're going to create that height in there anyway way and it's a shame to have the space go to waste when you could use it interesting well thanks everyone good to see yall okay so we'll see you next month great can you know I think about that garage setback question which you know I would have approved that too because we've discussed it before that it it's so hard to apply that to an existing dwelling especially ranch style sort of longitudinal houses with long