okay let's begin good evening this is a regular meeting of the Princeton zoning Board of adjustment being held electronically via zoom on March 26 2025 at 7:30 p.m. pursuant to section 13
of the open Public's meetings act adequate notice of the time and place of this meeting has been given by prominently posting the sunshine notice of the Princeton Zoning Board of adjustment such notice has been placed on the official bulletin board at the
municipal complex and by and by transmitting a copy of the notice to the Princeton packet town topics the times Trentonian and by filing a copy with the clerk of Princeton on March 21st
2025 as been posted to the municipal website what is that it's www Princeton nj.org um pursuant to the extension of the ongoing state of emergency by executive
order 292 in accordance with the emergency remote public meeting protocol for local public bodies to conduct a public meeting without physical attendance by members of the public noted no that during this extension of
the state of emergency all regular and special meetings of the Princeton zon Board of adjustment will be held electronically via Zoom was transmitted to the to the Princeton packet town topics and the times and was filed with the clerk of
Princeton on the 24th day of April 2 2020 such notices have been placed on the official bulletin board of the municipal comp or at the municipal complex and on the Princeton website and are to be
maintained throughout the year and by transmitting a copy of same to the Princeton packet town topics the times Trentonian Comcast media and by filing a copy thereof with the clerk of Princeton notices have been placed on all window
doors of the municipal complex Loria can you call the roll please Miss Chen Miss Coulson here Mr Floy here Mr
Shriver here Mr tenom here Mr Stein here Miss Donna yes Miss dukin here chairman Cohen here thank
you okay thank you uh we have one resolution this evening it's case 24-5 74 251 edger stone block 8204 lot 7 and you should have the
resolution in your packets and if there are any questions or comments please bring them up now or if someone would like to make a motion please do so so moved thank you thank you who who's
second that Eve pson thank you okay can you call the role please Claudia Miss Coulson yes Miss Donna yes Mr Floy yes
Mr schriver yes Mr Tenon bom yes chairman Cohen yes thank you welcome okay we have three applications this evening the first one is case
z22 d295 13 Prospect Street block 45.0 one lot 2.01 in the e2b zone this we heard heard a long time ago and uh it's back so Derek and you so
well first of all Claudia is the applicant and their council president Ryan is Ryan Kennedy is on on on the meeting can you tell me who do you need over uh good going in
alphabetically um I see um two people from our applicants Jim hayes and Patrick y uh as well as our um architect John Hassen and our engineer uh Sam
Wally can they raise their hands thank you okay there's something up on the screen yeah can we close that one second sure share something was stop sharing put good thank
you okay um Derek can you summarize your memo for us please sure um Derek before you begin let me swear you in do you swear affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful yes I do and I'll just note for the board I'm staff has
reminded me this application was carried several times so the applicant was not obligated to notice for tonight's meeting thank you correct I just want to share the screen a little bit um the applicant is back
again they were here uh previously on September 27th 2023 um they have revised the plans uh but they still maintain the construction of the building Edition containing the elevator and the improved Ada ex accessibility uh removing the
existing shed in the Reconstruction of the walkway to the west of the principal structure it's over here um they've also previously appeared with four parking spaces and the removal of a tree they've scaled that down to two parking spaces and I'm not really going to go into it
too much more because I think the applicant can bring more information um to the board um Derek are you trying to share something because what I see is still just there we go okay that's gone now okay okay oops so you you see the screen
now yes so there there were originally two parking spa or four parking spaces off of for the driveway and now there's two um and there's going to be a a further uh Amendment to the plan but I'm going to let Ryan Kennedy take take care of
that they still have a um floor area ratio uh which increases from 088 to 89 it's an 180 square foot increase the ma the permitted f is 0.6% um there's a building coverage uh
variance still a maximum permitted it's 30% and there 30.6 eight um percent um it's basically a 60 squ foot increase um and then there's a building setback for the
uh the excuse me the uh elevator um and then there's a projection into a side yard 17A 377 F there's a slight patio that projects into the side yard um we do ask that the storm water management manual be updated to include the uh
telephone number the party responsible for the maintenance and the applicant shall indraw install a trench drain to the Northerly lot line for the width of the driveway to collect runoff from the driveway part of flowing over the public sidewalk um they should provide testimony as to
the location of the trash recycles recycling storage which I think will be done when Ryan talks about the rec uh Vis driveway uh scenario so that's pretty much the memo um there's any questions I'd be glad to
address address them I'll stop sharing the screen karon I I don't think I asked the notices are in order yes um Steve uh as I I think I noted the staff has reminded me this applicant this application has been carried a number of
times there is the applicant was given this specific date we did announce it so no additional noticing was good okay okay Mr Kennedy um Mr chairman uh members of the
board um thank you so much Ryan Kennedy from Stevens and Lee for the applicant um Tower Club of Princeton University here this evening uh for those of you who are on the board at the time you may remember as chairman mentioned on late
2023 we came before the board after going to HPC with uh two separate of accessibility improvements for this historic Princeton University eating Club um on one hand literally the right hand on the right side of the project is
an a elevator Tower to allow internal um accessibility between the floors uh for users of the club guests um and and um and other um people using the building uh the second component was an attempt
to figure out how to get a couple of parking spaces essentially what I'll just describe is in the front yard of the project this is one of the few if not the only eating clubs that does not have um uh parking behind it uh and there was a proposal first as Mr Bridger
said uh for four spaces uh we uh there was a great debate and and discussion about a very important uh both the community and the club tree in the front yard that would have potentially been impacted we went back to the drawing board uh and and
tried to come up with the design for a two space we know one Ada space um and and possibly a second space um I'm here to tell you tonight that while we've um done a lot of work to try to do that um the delay in getting the elevator online
and moving forward with the um issues that are still remain that we'll remind you of in putting that part of the project together um of of cause the applicant to to look at this and say let's let's go forward and get the Ada um elevator Tower um put in and we may
come back at a future date with another application uh to address um the parking uh but ultimately we're here tonight to to go through the project and just address the elevator and for those of you who are here we will go through the whole thing uh but it's a a piece that um um you may remember uh if you from
quite a while ago from that from that first hearing um we've got possibly four people to speak tonight we've got our engineer uh Sam W our architect who will mostly be um pushing things here tonight John Hassen and then Patrick young and and
Jim hayes uh from the uh from the club itself if we have any any questions U apologies but sh I I see Mr bridger's Hand is up I'm I'm happy to pause if there's any questions or I missed something excuse me Ryan I forgot to
mention that Elizabeth Kim is here and the HBC did provide a report on the revised design so um I just want that on the record sorry to interrupt you thank you would the board like to hear from Miss Kim before um the application the
revised application is presented I think it's a good idea if we get a summary of her the H Elizabeth we'll just swear you iny you swear from your testimony this evening will be truthful I do thank
you um so obviously the HPC was not aware of this change um so I will really just review the memo that was presented in regards to the application which is the same that your board has um as Ryan had
said um HPC reviewed the revised design on November 18th 2024 um it was indicated to the commission that the existing or the original elevator design was not
changing the material the location the dimensions um everything was to stay the same with the new design and portion of the existing retaining wall adjacent to the existing driveway you need to be demolished and sections rebuilt along the east side of the driveway an
existing fence on the top of the west elevation of the retaining wall and the existing planting in that vicinity would be required to be removed however with this design they were not proposed to be transplanted Elsewhere on the property um the new parking will
continue to be in the front yard of the building of off the west side of the driveway as it was previously but as Mr Bridger stated only two parking spaces would be provided one which would be the Ada and another one which would service
an electric uh vehicle um the site has been revised with that new parking layout and a re redesigned utility area and has been regraded to to direct Ada accessibility to the main entry walk away from the new
parking lot and as your board may recall the previous design um the uh the uh the ada8 access had to go back down the driveway along the public sidewalk on Prospect Avenue and then back up the entrance uh with this design they did
accommodate with regrading that there would be direct accessibility to the entrance um walkway from the uh new parking lot um and the parking area also was repositioned to preserve the London
Plane Tree and um the applicant ensured that it would be protected in addition the four other trees on the property um were proposed to be retained with the new design um HBC with reservation was recommending to your
board to approve this application with baren request and really the reservation continued I mean they acknowledged that they um redesigned to accommodate that ADA walking from the parking lot to the
elevator access however there were certain things that they had talked about in their original memo which had to do with accessibility to the exterior spaces the accessibility um which was not really
directed to be available with the elevator so a lot of times they had to go outside go along the walkway to the adjacent property and then go into the backyard so those reservations still remain with them however they did
support the application because of the revised parking um but with this change I think the HPC would completely support this design they never had any issues with the elevator being installed and I think the
removal of the parking in front of the building in the front lawn area was also a concern because it really impacted the streetcape of all the eating clubs and this would be the only one that had parking in the front so they would definitely support what the applicant is
doing at this point so I think the other items on here are kind of mute on their recommendations with the revised um design that the applicant is coming into tonight and if there's any questions I'm available to answer them thank you thank you Elizabeth any board members any
questions of Elizabeth okay thank you again ran please continue thank you so much uh thank you Elizabeth um as well for particularly you know for the summary and for for continuing to work with the applicant we spent a we did spend a lot
of time and we really did uh try to make the overall larger project work and very appreciative of HBC uh um your volunteers and and staff um working with us and we may be back to try to figure it out in the future but for now um just our thanks um we've got I'm going to
likely just be two witnesses but if we could swear all four of us um in in case they're they're needed I I see um John our architect has turned his camera on Sam if you Patrick and Jim all could i' ask that they could be um sworn in uh
for for possible testimony uh tonight sure let's see Mr Wally and Mr Hayes you're muted so and Mr Yan so okay great gentlemen do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening evening will be truthful yes yes yes thank
you right thank you so much um Sam we'll we'll start with you and if it's all right um I'd like to uh um share my screen and Mark our one um exhibit our slideshow um this evening um as I guess
A1 okay and um Mr Kennedy are these PowerPoint slides and do you know how many there are there are power slides there are 22 of them but I'll be honest we're not going to get to all of them a lot of them had the details of the of the part of the project that we're um abandoning so
we'll we'll be clear which slides we're actually using um and because I do not expect we will get to number 22 by any by any stretch okay you're gonna put it up on the screen please ah apologies um there's an extra click there let's see
if that uh if that did it all right um Sam if if you could um before we start um give the board a brief uh uh introduction of your part of your involvement in the project and your credentials as an engineer here
this evening from Dynamic absolutely I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey I graduated from NGIT with a Bachelor of Science and civil engineering um I'm currently employed as a project manager at Dynamic engineering at the Chester office I've been involved with this project um for
the better part of two years or so at this point and I've appeared before multiple boards um including this board last time in late 2023 and my license is in good standing we'll accept you as an expert in your field thank so much Mr
chairman um so Sam if we could I'll I'll start um stepping the board as a reminder through the you know the original idea of the project and and where we are so uh here slide two we've got a copy of the uh Princeton's uh
zoning map is that uh blue arrow show the uh subject property on Prospect Avenue in the E2 Zone in the former burrow correct right uh property is located within the E2 Zone uh we're located at 13 Prospect Avenue and we're
specifically designated as a block 49.0 lot 2.01 in the uh Municipal tax maps hear slide three so this is a bird's eye aerial map
um just some surrounding uses uh we're essentially surrounded by other clubs and pron University campus to the north is Prospect Avenue and Princeton University campus Beyond to the east we have the Cannon Club to the West we have the coffee Club um and Washington Road
Beyond to the South is the Terrace Club uh overall the property in its entirety is is about 0.53 Acres um and the property is currently developed as everyone knows with the historical Tower Club of Princeton um pave driveway
sidewalks and a halfcourt basketball court at the rear of the site um I think that generally covers the existing conditions for the aerial map uh if we want to continue moving forward yeah so uh next on slide four
we've got a Fronton view from the Street uh showing uh the the existing club and the um brick wall kind of in front of it uh I guess the two arrows are meant to show generally where the two formerly two elements of the project would be the
the left being uh the the parking element and the right being where the elevator Tower will go yep that's correct right and we won't dwell much on this but uh slide five uh this was the original idea for the parking area that
was presented in 2023 uh going to just briefly um take the board through what we were talking about then and what concerns were raised that caused us to go back to the drawing board yeah absolutely so for some background this is the original site plan uh that was dated uh October 25th 2022 and was
presented at the prior Zoning Board hearing um which was proposing to uh have a minor building expansion of approxim 60 square feet for the elevator for Ada accessibility along with four parking spaces the Ada parking was
originally proposed along the street line um with an accessible path that essentially circled back around through Prospect Avenue sidewalk and into the walkway that leads up to the tower Club at the front of the building and there were concerns from the board professionals regarding the existing
London plan tree um and it's route system in close proximity to the proposed parking area um and there also concerns about the uh uh grades around the uh parking itself too um just because the four parking spaces were
relatively Steep and it's essentially where the original site plan had left off um I think that essentially covers the uh the original site plan but moving to slide six we kind of have the original
plan and the revised one that we uh workshop with HPC going to talk about our attempts to to scale back a bit to to to meet the comments that we had right yeah so this is a great side by-side comparison um so obviously on
the left hand side we could see um similar to slide five the original four parking space um proposal for the original application and the recently submitted site plans um from I believe they're dated September
12th 2024 reflects the reduced parking based off the comments that we received from the board last time as well as the board's professionals and the intent of the design was to pull back the previous asphalt parking away from the London Plane trees route system um in addition
to that the design also required a retaining wall to flatten the grades and provide a more accessible Ada route um directly into the Tower Club so in the original design um the the driveway
sloped uh from the street down almost to a a Subterranean kind of basement level by several feet in the revised design the parking was well shrunken down from four to two spaces was lifted up to the current level um and and not recessed
underground essentially um potentially more visible and while pulled away from the tree still not necessarily um 100% out of out of a a an area of concern I'll say
um now switching and and to be quick to slide seven um we did review this with HPC and appreciated their support generally of the concessions that were made but ultimately uh the engineering and design issues with dealing with the
um revised trash location um moved from the basement level up uh and the uh the the retaining wall from the formerly cut area uh to a now um essentially above the neighboring property as well as the proximity of the
tree is um caused the applicant to essentially Push pause on this part of the project and we are not seeking approval for this part of the site plan or the variances associated with the parking but wanted to just remind the board where where we were uh with this
and and the challenges and and thank everyone for their comments that that caused us to to to um rethink the project and uh perhaps eventually come back but but but at this point um the best way to respond to the concerns that the board and HBC had would is to
continue trying to work on making this work uh either in a future application or in a different way um we'll likely have um Sam come back after we go through the remind the board um again testimony we already received of the um elevator portion of
the project but I'll certainly um uh pause for any any questions or comments from our civil engineer about the uh that part of the site okay thank you thank you um our next witness who I believe testified uh
at the application uh then in in uh last time uh John Hassen uh is uh on the design team his firm uh is the architect of record for the site and John kind of is involved in supervising ing the um uh uh the design here and and and with the
visual elements um John want to just briefly remind uh the board your credentials I suppose and uh um and the involvement of your you and your your partners in the project certainly y again my name is John Hassen
with the 3gc studio architecture um graduate of drille University licensed in several States including Vermont and Maine my partner car Cilla who was not able to attend tonight is our New Jersey licensed architect unfortunately he was called away and not able to attend um I
have supervised the drawings and have testified here before for you guys and I'm here to do it again we'll accept you as an ex thank you so much thank you so John um the first we'll start with the slide
eight here these are photos again from the front uh those arrows kind of generally show um I guess on the left from the street view and the right kind of from the neighboring property the areas that we're talking about for uh where the elevator will go that is
correct Ryan the elevator will be the west west side of the building U if you're looking from the street it'll be on the right side there as the arrow is pointing to it um it it occurs probably halfway between the front of the building and the rear of the building on
the side there um again it's about 60 square F feet 7 and half by 7 and2 ft square and it will cover three floors the basement floor the first floor and the second floor this gives the users uh the most access to all of the public
spaces the dining spaces the social spaces so it's kind of the best location for for that uh purpose and um the exterior will be clad with a brick veneer we uh are kind of matching the existing brick as as best we can and we
are utilizing the brick that was used during the rear Edition that was done uh back in the the80s I believe that was built so we have samples of the brick which we have submitted in the past and have been accepted and the roof will have a nice
hip roof on it uh similar character to the existing building there as you can see all right so this is a slide nine has the front um elevation kind of overlaid with the you know again how would you describe it visibility from the street it's partially visible or be a challenged to
see it through some of the the shrubs or Greenery yeah I mean the grade slopes down so you get a blocked view for Just from the topography alone and it is heavily you know vegetative there so during the summer months it would be very difficult to see if if at all is a lot of vegetation that's going
to come out for this or come out to get access to this area not at all not at all thank you right slide 10 um as a reminder of the board that uh this property um has not a really any
real logical relation sizewise to the floor area um and technically um we are uh over what is uh permitted uh for floor area we are um uh exceeding it by a small amount to allow for this
addition of the elevator Tower um that is a D4 variance we'll talk about that a bit at the end uh as well as uh building not land coverage but building coverage again for the footprint of the elevator Tower itself U we've got up here where
where 30% is permitted we're going from 3.43 to 30. 68 for building coverage again the the square footage of the tower itself uh as well as floor area again that's kind of two two stories of that same space is the uh increased um
floor area from 088 to 89 um again moving to slide uh 11 here uh couple other details John you talk about the the height detail and um how
the the I'll say the setback um issue that we've got by coming a little closer to the to the lot line correct so you will see there the elevation uh shows the height as being 31 and A4 feet which is 3 inch 31 Feet 3 in from the basement
elevation uh up to the peak of the roof there and uh and the topography lends itself that you know it's a sloping site so from the front of the site you're at the first level but by the time you get to the rear yard you're at the basement level and so that uh so a lot of that is
obscured from the street due to the topography there and U currently there's a walkway that extends you know from the front of the building down to the rear yard there's some steps and kind of a walkway this elevator will interrupt that walkway a little bit and we of
expanding it over to the property line to still allow the walkway and allow pedestrians to access the rear yard from the front yard so we're uh we're able to continue that so uh in addition to the variances talked on the on about
mentioned on the other slide um this is the building essentially creeping a little bit closer to the lot line to allow this um uh that's would be a 4.6 ft uh as well as the kind of uh wrapping the sidewalk a little bit around it
brings to 0.5 ft uh from from the property line which is a new variance condition uh as well um John were there any other are there any other real logical or otherwise options to to citing this um
elevator for accessibility looked at all four sides of this building to find the best location and what really drove this location was its access to the public spaces on the inside as well it's security from the road it seemed like it kind of fit The Best of Both Worlds
there to be on the side street there in the rear it was challenged because there's a lot of glass in the rear and it's very ornate with the dining rooms whatnot the right side of the building has a lot of Office Space over there so um so that doesn't lend itself at all that would be the east side sorry about
that is really has a lot of the admin offices and not the the public spaces so so it really made sense to be on the west side of the building uh it gave everyone the user you know access to uh to all the social places that they want to get
to here's the uh slide 13 is a Is that West Side elevation showing the uh the the tower as well as the other um spaces uh I suppose behind is Right correct correct and this is the rear view um
rear elevation I think you said this but this the site does slope considerably from front to back and um well there was some discussion at the initial hearing of you know desire uh to to have access to the other outdoor levels um
ultimately John it's just it's not possible from this location to to connect all of those and just really the the interior floors is what you know the best that could be done from this location that is correct that is correct there is a quite a difference in
floor elevation in some of the spaces there which would is real challenge to make accessible and uh would probably require a second elevator to do so possibly for a future project but at the moment not not something that can be accommodated from that same
location exactly exactly this location gives them uh you know all the the access to the most important spaces got it um yeah uh just in in just to wrap up again um the uh while initially we had a more
ambitious project that included some parking changes uh in the front um Our intention is to to abandon those uh and not include them in the application um uh but only to provide uh the Ada elevator access at this point that
avoids all of the challenges of of um uh the the important tree in the front yard uh and the visual elements um of elevating parking in the front yard uh where where no other uh has has that at this point um uh we continue to struggle
with the design and visibility of uh raising up the trash enclosure from the current Subterranean level up to ground level um and and at this point uh the importance of getting the elevator uh approved uh and moving forward so that users of this club have the ability to
get in you know through the front door and then access all of the floors was was very important to the to the applicant uh we do appreciate HPC and the board and your staffs attempt to work with us uh to go from the four parking spaces to the two spaces uh
first the the uh the the lower level uh to the main level um and all the iterations that we worked for and um we are appreciative But ultimately we just don't think we're we're there yet with something that makes sense for the applicant and addresses all the comments so we um are uh our desires just to
proceed with the Ada Tower uh just as a a reminder there are four variances three of them are are bulk variances um we hope that you agree um that in some combination of a C1 you know that there's no other location the the uh narrowness or lack of other space on
this site or the um uh more flexible C2 variants um uh is appropriate uh for those also um note on on our uh floor area variants um you know there's no actual criteria for a DI Minimus variance but this is indeed um a small
one and that one where particularly this site can accommodate um without uh any detriment the changes uh and I also just want to note there's quite a few uh benefits both in the master plan um of
the municipalities land use ordinance um specifically in the new Master Plan uh the historic preservation goals 82 and 83 um facilitating adaptive reuse and restoration to accomodate growth and changing needs without substantial impact to the integ of historic resources that's I think what youve
heard tonight what the applicant is really trying and able to do with HBC support as well as balancing historic preservation efforts with the public interest in um Equity uh which is essentially U allowing the space to be accessible to those um with Mobility
needs um uh and accommodating that without um negatively impacting the history of the site I'm not going to bore you with too much else here um but ultimately uh the purposes of zoning particularly a b c uh g i and I want to
point out particularly J uh to promote the conservation of historic districts um uh are are uh particularly uh carried forward um by this project um happy to uh have any of our uh Witnesses available for
any questions certainly appreciate you have your time again and staff and hbcs and working with us over all this time to try to come to something that work for every element But ultimately um we think we came to the best place in the uh that we can at this moment uh for uh
for the the elevator we also do have the two represent from the applicant if there are any questions for them um certainly have them available as well thank you board members any questions of the attorney the applicant engineer well excuse me or the
architect okay um Mr Kennedy we're going to open this up to the public would you like to say anything uh no thank you again okay Claudia has anyone indicated they'd like to speak on behalf of this application no sir do you want to
announce to raise their hands if they want to speak yes if anybody does want to speak on this application please indicate that by raising your hands at the bottom of the screen okay seeing none we'll close the public portion of the hearing again Mr
Kennedy want to sum up all right thank you again um well while we we were hopeful that we could uh do more on this site it is a small and complicated site grading issues um important trees to the community and this applicant that we
wanted to ultimately yield to uh unless we got it absolutely right um and there was still some work to go there we perhaps we'll we'll see you again uh on this application or on this um property uh with some um requests after we review
it but but ultimately the importance of getting this historic building accessible to those with um Mobility needs um applicant is very proud that uh um all users were enter through the the front door um uh regardless of Mobility
uh requirements and be free to move through all of the floors finally uh once this elevator uh is built U that is U Square in in and keep keeping with uh many of the goals of of the municipality's master plan and ML and
zoning ordinance and U despite the bulk variances uh we think the proper balancing um would allow them to be uh granted with with really no detriment uh to any of those issues um and then again this is technically a uh D4 floor area
variant so I do need um five affirmative uh votes but as I summed before um fully uh hope you'll agree that um this di Minimus U increase in floor area uh is well supported um uh and with with no
negative impact whatsoever to any of those issues again thank you so much for your time and for all the hard work over the last you year and a half I suppose uh by staff uh and and HPC thank you board members let's go
into executive session and discuss the application somebody like like to make a comment we approving the parking spaces is that part of this plan no
okay thank you any other comments questions I move we approve this plan thank you do we have a second all a second go ahead thank you okay any questions on
the motion Claudia can you call the rooll please I I I do have a question go ahead sorry could Derek sum up or or actually specify what we're
approving I'm I'm a little confused is it three things okay yes sir uh we have an F variance where the existing is 88 the proposed is 89
0.89 and the maximum permitted is 0.6 uh percent that's a 180 square foot increase we have the uh building coverage variance 30% maximum whereas
3.68 is proposed and that's associated with the elevator uh footprint um the building setback uh no building shall be erected closer to a street or lot line than 25 ft and no portion of a building shall be erected closer to a street or lot line
than the height in feet of that portion um the proposes 4.6 and existing non-complying sheds being removed from the Westerly property line and encroaches onto the neighboring property and violates the principal setback the principal structur is being expanded and that reduces the existing sidey yard
setback from 10.5 feet to 4.6 and the proposed Building height of the elevator is 31.3 feet in height adjacent to the sideline lot line um and then there's a small area that's paved over a patio that is
um everything needs to be 4 feet from a property line and the proposal is 0.5 ft um or 6 Ines for the uh the patio walkway on the on the at the rear of the property and those are the variances um and there's a that's it thank you
Michael okay thank you hey any other questions chairman Cohen there's uh Dan Weisman and Elizabeth Cohen have raised their hands oh okay um little late but that's fine um we'll uh open the public hearing
up again since I don't know Mr wisman is your landuse engineer but I'm sorry who else wanted to participate Elizabeth Kim oh okay we've already sworn Elizabeth Dan let's just swear you in sure do you swear or Fromm your testimony this evening will be truthful I do
thank you thank you Mr chairman I don't know if Miss myself or Miss Kim to go first doesn't let's let Miss Kim go first Elizabeth yes thank you Mr chairman I wonder with um this approval
of this application if the um the board would consider um the comment that HPC made um number five which was recommended that the samples of the building materials should be reviewed and approved by HBC in addition to the material for the new ret well no no
longer retaining wall and this was something that the applicant agreed to collaborate with the HBC sub commit committee comprising its professional Representatives I see no problem we can include that in the resolution thank you you're
welcome okay who's next here Dan did you want to speak yes uh just briefly commenting on I just wanted to summarize some of the comments uh that are in the memo just tagging on to Derek summary of the variances uh now that the parking area
has been removed any comments regarding storm water manage management are no longer applicable uh it looks like there will be no increase in impervious coverage for this building therefore no storm water management will be required so any staff comments that were referenced in the staff memo regarding
that uh don't apply um same goes to any comments on the driveway now that the driveway reconstruction is no longer proposed um those comments don't apply um other than that the only comments that we would ask to be made conditions
uh are regarding other agency approvals uh Mercer County planning board and Princeton Sewer Department specifically um and then a comment regarding uh the applicant engineer uh submitting an estimate for uh the construction uh for determination of inspection
fees okay and that was all thank you FL did you capture that for our resolution Karen did you get that I did I did okay so we'll add those to the
resolution um okay board members do you have any questions of Miss Kim or our engineer okay we have a motion and a second C call of R please Miss Coulson yes Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver
yes Mr tanon bom yes Mr Stein yes Miss Donna yes chairman Cohen yes thank you thank you very much thank you so much you're
welcome okay all right um our next application is case Z24 d555 79 Prospect Street block 50.01 Lot 4 in the e2b
zone Karen are the notice is in order yes this application did require noticing it is in order the board has jurisdiction thank you okay um FL I assume the applicant and their counsel are here I think I see them yes good
evening chairman Cohen my name is Bob rol I'm the attorney for the applicant I think we know you Bob I think so um Derek can you summarize your memo for us please yes sir try to share the screen one more
time here did that can everyone see the screen the site plan yes great thank you okay and applications uh filed by the Princeton Charter Club seeking classification and approval as a minor site development with variance relief in according to
njsa 40 col 55 d-7 D4 and bulk variances uh to construct three additions to the existing building Associated site improvements at 79 Prospect Avenue um it's located in the e2b zone in the former Princeton burough
the 0.92 acre s's located on the south side of prospect within the Prospect Avenue historic district site contains a three-story masonary structure with a driveway access to Prospect Avenue to the east of the building serving a four space parking lot toward the rear um the
club also benefits from an area of use seasment behind the rear line of the adjacent property containing a sand volleyball court and a basketball court it's back here in this area um the applicant is proposing to construct three additions to the existing building
as well as an open air Pavilion toward the rear of the lot totaling approximately 3900 square feet in floor area the first uh addition is located on the Eastern facade it's three stories in height and facilitates a new um elevator
it's in this area right here um the second edition is on the western facade and it look it um is located mostly underground the addition contains a electrical room a Terrace on the roof
and which is above grade and connects to a new concrete sidewalk that connects the public sidewalk from Prospect Avenue to the rear Pavilion that's on the the left side of the property here and that's the addition there um the Third Edition is at the rear of the
building that's back here in this area um and it's one and two stories in height and accommodate this addition partial demolition of the existing structure is required the roof of this
addition will contain two balconies each accessed from the second and third floors of the existing building um site improvements include construction of an ADA parking space over on the the right hand side of the site adjacent to the proposed elevator
and a concrete sideway walk to the west of the existing building with an ADA ramp to the access the new Terrace on the western um facade other improvements include an electrical Transformer between the new concrete sidewalk and the side Lot line
landscaping and construction of a subsurface infiltration Basin for storm water management the applicants request did waivers from the following checklist items and staff has no objection to granting these waivers item a 9f archaeological and historic sight survey
and item a 9g archaeological and historic site construction protocol um the applicate is requesting a floor area variance um the maximum permitted in this site is
0.6 um where 0.663 is proposed the existing floor area is 22,000 482 squ ft and the increase uh by approximately 3,984 ft for a total of 26466 representing a a 177% um increase
in floor area this is a d variance which does require five affirmative boats um additional variances um are required for setback the proposed addition on the East facade is 41 ft in height and is set back
27.7 ft as you will cwl from the previous application uh no building shall be erected closer to a street or lot line than 25 ft and no portion of that building shall be erected closer to a street or lot line than the height and feet of that portion of the addition um
there's also an addition or excuse me a variance for a loading birth uh which is required for buildings between 10 and 25,000 Square F feet requirement is one birth they've asked for a variance from that requirement uh staff notes that the applicant has
applied for a variance for the maximum coverage requirement of 30% per um b7a 351 um the variance does not appear to be required as the values provided by the applicant are based on impervious coverage percentage coverage as required
by 17A 351 is defined um in section 17A 2011 the definitions as the area covered by all buildings on a lot expressed as a percentage of the lot staff calculates the proposed building coverage to be approximately 23% which would comply
with uh section 17A 351 we ask that the applicant confirm this um requirement um coverage per this requirement um the property is in a historic district Elizabeth Kim is here tonight and she will speak to that um the project increases impervious
coverage by 1,800 Square fet met meets the definition of a minor development under Princeton storm water Control Ordinance and it's subject to the provisions and standards of the uh stream storm water Control Ordinance the applicant is proposing to install a subsurface infra Basin on lot 14 to
manage and retain the increase in impervious coverage a similar drywell exists on lot 32 that was approved with a prior application to manage storm water uh runoff on that lot staff has a couple comments per the NJ D best managements practice manual roof runoff
that directly discharges into small scale subsurface infil ation basins um excuse me can be pre-treated by Leaf screens first flush diverters or roof washers the applicant shall update the plans to include this pre-treatment and
additionally at least one of the inspection reports that extends into the subsoil is required for subsurface infiltration basins the applicant shall update the plans to provide an inspection Port um and the storm water management inspection and maintenance plan shall be revised to show the
location of the port uh regarding bicycle parking the applicant is proposing to use the existing bicycle racks within the public right away um to satisfy the bicycle parking provisions of section 10B 282.30
B 204 the applicant shall provide racks that meet these designed standards and amount to be termined by the board as discussed in section I um which covers parking and circulation um they're proposing one ADA Compliant parking space adjacent to
proposed elevator addition no other changes are proposed to parking or circulation in this application um although the eating Club contains 150 seats there are numerous additional rooms used for assembly uses bedrooms and bedrooms on the third floor um it's
the position of Staff um has been the case with all these eating clubs that there is no parking standard that rically addresses the the eating Club use so um in accordance with that section 17A 343 States for any other permitted buildings and uses for which there are
no requirements set forth appropriate and comparable off street parking requirements shall be determined by the planning board or the border of jurisdiction taken into consideration the amount of traffic to be generated thereby the likelihood of all day or short-term use of parking spaces the
location and availability of other means of access and other fact affecting the amount of traffic likely to be generated uh and the need for parking similarly it's the same story with bicycle parking there aren't really any standards um for bicycle parking and it's it's the same
uh charge to the board to to review the information and determine if the parking provided by the applicant um is is adequate uh comparison of the required bike parking spaces and vehicular parking spaces for certain buildings and
uses within the prin zoning ordinance is is provided below for the board's consideration um they applicants shall provide the number of bedrooms staff and the number of graduate and undergraduate students to assist the board in determining the number of bicycle and
vehicle parking spaces um the applicant shall we understand that PSG um will only provide cut sheets of Transformers once permits have been issued by the building department and psng the applic should provide details
of the Transformer once reviewed by the utility provider um we asked that the engineer the applicants engineer submit a construction cost estimate for the installation of all site improvements and public improvements will which will
be reviewed and approved by Princeton's land use engineer in order to determine the amount required for inspection fees and performance guarantees respectively that's the engineering and Zoning memo uh synopsis I have Elizabeth Kim uh here tonight also to talk about
the historic preservation review and Justin leco the director of planning is also available um he may give some high points of his memo or if you have any questions he's he's also here for for those as well so if you have any questions I'd be glad to answer them other than that I'd like to hand off to
Elizabeth Kim okay thank you thank you Elizabeth please summarize your memo for us thank you so um as Derek said the princ Charter Club is also within the um Prospect Avenue store District similar
to the application you just heard HPC reviewed this application on March 17th of this year um the the Prospect Avenue historic district is a type two District which is reviewed by HPC which is
anything visible from the public right away so as Mr Bridger had indicated there is a uh demolition partial Demolition and addition to the rear of the building and HPC uh did not comment on that because it's not
visible um uh so in order to facilitate their new elevator and other dishs um which will which uh I'm sorry um uh the the proposed
elevator that they are um indicated on the plan is on the west elevation of the building um and then the addition of the the uh the west side of the building
also which is referenced as the West Terrace is where they are providing a new um Ada accessible ramp to a new Terrace that they're building and they're converting a window into a door and the door is going to mimic the style
that they have on the North Terrace um in addition um they have the new um the new walkway that is um connected from the public RightWay along the west side of the property and connects to the West
Terrace and connects also to the open Pavilion in the back of the property um so basically those of the components of the application that HPC reviewed um at the meeting um the HPC
appreciated the overview of Princeton Charter Schools approach to their goals uh which their Vision that they have been working on for 15 years and I will um leave that for the applicant to present uh at the meeting also the applicant addressed all the comments
that was in my report uh the only thing that I want to highlight on that is that was a squash fort building Foundation that's in the back which they're going to be removing because part of their Pavilion is going to be built in the same location the applicant was able to bring
a lot of information about that squash court um and again I'm going to leave that for them to uh represent um and the only change that they had from their submission is that they were just changing the hardware on the new
door off the West Terrace so after the uh conversation the presentation HPC you know unanimously supported this application they felt that they did a really sensitive job designing um
selecting the material and the placement of uh of all the components of the application so um they also had no objections to the variances and they just really appreciate the fact that they were really keeping in the
Integrity of the historic property as best they can to meet their goals so any questions you may have I'll be available okay thank you Miss Kim okay um are there any questions of Mr Burger
or Miss Kim yes yes um it's regarding assessing parking if I heard you correctly Derek you said when sort of when things don't fit into a box on this use it's up to
the planning board to kind of set planning requirements but then you went on to say that we need to assess it did I hear you correctly dere Derek wouldn't it be just whichever
board is hearing this since in this case we're hearing uh the site plan application as well yeah I said uh planning board I mean and then I said Board of jurisdiction so I it says planning board in the actual ordinance but it's a d variance before our board
so I think that charge goes to this board to come up with uh that determination okay thanks thank you okay um any other questions all right Mr Rolie thank you
Mr chairman and again by way of introduction i' have not appeared before you all in several months my name is is Bob roli I'm an attorney with offices in uh hopwell Township um I'm the attorney for this applicant I've also been a
member of Charter Club since uh way back in 1968 and I've served on their Board of Governors which is Sim I know DK Derek I saw that look I've also served on their Board of Governors which are like a Board of Trustees for many many years and
continue to do so and act as their Chief counsel so I'm very pleased to uh have partaken in this entire um project from from day one Derek is also um very um clearly and
specifically described the nature of the application so I don't want to go into that again I usually do but I'll I'll wave it at this point uh the property as you know is 79 Prospect Avenue it's lot four in Block 50.01 on your tax Atlas and of course
we're in the e- 2B zoning uh District District um my development team appeared before the HPC on March 17th and secured unanimous approval of our plans from that uh from that uh committee uh since
then we have taken the time to review the engineering and Zoning report dated March 6th of this year the planners memorandum dated March 20th um and also uh the HPC summary memorandum dated uh March uh
19th um we are prepared to address all the issues raised in each of those memoranda I have three definite Witnesses and a possible standby Witnesses for your uh listening tonight I'd like to start with Hol Trump who is
our magnificent Club manager she will um attest to the basic operations of the club will tell you the real reasons for the um various proposals in conjunct with this application and also address the parking and the the bicycle parking
issues raised by by Derek we've worked those out uh successfully my second witness would be Mor M clinto you've heard from her before she's a New Jersey licensed architect with a form of Ford three um more will discuss and describe the existing and proposed building
elevations and floor plans in conjunction with this application and thirdly I have Russ Smith who's a licensed civil engineer with hope Val engineering you've heard from him many times on various applications um he will discuss the
specifics of our site plan and uh standing on deck if you need to hear anything about this spec specifics of our proposed construction I have Michael balder Roi from dvb construction he's our site contractor I I hope he's on the screen he said he would be here uh this
evening so that's the basic uh lineup um guess uh what you like to do now um is uh Caren is to have all the witnesses sworn at the same time I we we need Miss Trump to uh put her video on right and
to unmute herself we can't see her at the moment hold on let's see why I'm not coming up hold on there we go sorry sorry also did you say Is It
Michael bosi is Michael with us tonight I see a screen that says Michael but we have no video or sound yeah Michael is that you I'd rather not delay maybe he can pick up if the like to hear from Miss Trump Miss mclin talk and Mr Smith do
you all swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful hi I do yes I do yeah you can't get on yeah go out and come back in again sorry that was um our Builder he
couldn't get in so I suggested he go out and try to come back in again okay Holly ready yes I'm ready okay could you please uh state by whom you are employed yes um I am the club manager of the Princeton Charter Club
and how long have you been the manager of the Princeton Charter Club I've been manager for almost five years okay could you generally describe the area of uh your responsibilities as Club manager uh I am responsible for the
entire building uh maintenance and upkeep of everything to do with that as well as the food service and all of the pieces that go into uh making sure the community itself of all of our membership as well as alumni are well taken care of
okay so it be fair to say that you're you're very intimately familiar with the day-to-day business uh Affairs and operation of the club yes all financial and all everything that has to do with this 1913 building yes okay and you were
involved with both the architect and their contractor uh in regard to the design of the proposed uh Renovations from day one correct yes yes I was okay you give just a brief reason or three or four or five why we're doing this
project what is the need what is the driving force for the need for the club's proposed um Renovations well we have a number of of um like larger portions of what what the club needs um if we want to talk about
infrastructure generally we are living on borrowed time on a 300 amp service for our facility um and Forward Thinking with that we're also looking at where we can um expand on possibly car chargers things like that that are needed as well
as we're going to need to have proper um energy sources to get our elevator working and those kinds of things most importantly is the Ada access that we've been not having any success with when we have special events Andor membership or
University students that can't access the club enjoy all the wonderful things about it uh also we are kind of crunched right now in our dining space we've taken some of our most beautiful rooms uh our club room which is more of a
lounging area as well as um our main foyer as you walk in the door um is cluttered with a service line equipment for Food Service as well as there's dining tables now in that great room and we're just trying to expand enough to
create the dining space and the servery space for our membership as it is now um it's a little bit tight so that is another piece as well as I guess me holding the responsibilities as Club manager I have
over 4,500 alumni as well as present membership that are counting on me to make sure that we still keep to the entire history as as well as their all of the stories that I've heard over my
five years of tenure that are things that they want to come back and look at this place as a new and then married old building and those things they can point to that still exist so those are very important aspects of uh this project and
the marrying of the old and the new is something very important um in generally just for the historic preservation portion of of of uh our project thank you and we'll get into way more detail when morg has her turn it bad to talk about the uh the floor plans and
the and the new um elevations um I just want to talk about just one or two other things then we'll we'll let you go at least I will um derck mentioned the issue uh pertaining to the bicycle rack that's currently um present on the site could you you explain just give the
board some history as to why it's there and who put it there and what we're going to do um a year last summer in August uh the the main construction of the uh cold water and lines were put in along Prospect by the university uh they
tore up the whole front of our walkway and submerged like 15 ft down all these piping and as they were putting everything back together uh Russ Hart and uh Christen appleget uh with help of them we looked at where our bike racks
could go and what they proposed was putting the bike racks that are on the rest of prospect into the spaces to the front of our main entry brick walkway so down towards the uh the roadway off of
the walkway are these two waving bike racks that they just installed last August for us um that are usually about 50% full during um during bigger services hours like you know lunch
dinner those kinds of things um how many spaces are accommodated by the current bike rack oh there's got to be at least 20 spaces or more than that more than that I think I'm I'm sorry I don't have the exact number for that and it's never more than half
utilized yeah the and and it's people are back to kind of walking a little bit more and not using bikes as much because the scooter scooters were a big thing and got nixed uh last spring due to accidents so I thought there might be
more of an influx of of bikes but it really hasn't increase that much okay and you were part of a discussion with staff recently about an alternate location and type of a new type of bike rack correct yes um Mor can you share
your screen to show the board what our solution is on the bike rack while we're talking about it doy do you want this to be an exhibit or is this going to be part of a larger exhibit I think it's a separate exhibit that we've subed and this will just be a
short discussion but I just wanted to uh nip this one in the bud before we got into the regular presentation so this would be exhibit A1 yes okay okay Holly do you see the
exhibit um could you please describe what this exhibit um illustrates um the salmon colored box yes um as you're coming down the walkway now we're that's that's where you see the first entry area that's going to go to the new
Ada access um on the side of the west side of the building right as you come in through the bush line there will be a um a bike rack area that will hold at least at we're looking at eight spaces
that will have the uh approved now u-shaped uh bike holding area that we would like to get uh submerged into the ground and then we will be putting uh gravel and uh border around that to you
know make sure that we supplement any other bike needs uh since the wave bike area is kind of not fulfilling the needs we decided that we were going to do that as a um as an alternate source that
would be um that was proposed by both Mr Weissman and Mr um Bridger okay and the current location of the bike rack is right below I see yes there's two of them right there okay and in your opinion is the proposed new location better and
more appropriately located than the original location yeah it'll help because that's going to be a more well utilized um walkway now path of least resistance so to speak and if there's bikes and people stopping there it will be an easy onoff
um with the walkway there also as a um as a as a a quicker way to get in and out okay thank you I have no further questions of this witness at this time um Mr uh chairman we let's we'll hold the questions till the end of the
witnesses with other board members all right okay let's keep going okay keep going with Russ Smith our civil engineer Russ no I'm sorry apologize uh I want to start with MOA mclintoch the project
architect sorry about that Mo that's okay all right would you please uh state your name and your profession and by whom you're employed yes I'm Mora Clint talk I'm a partner at Ford 3 Architects I am a licensed
architect in New Jersey Pennsylvania and New York um I have testified before a number of zoning boards in both New Jersey and Pennsylvania and I was a member of my um local zoning board for five years
okay expert have you qualified to testify before this board before I don't remember not before this board that's why I was giving qualifications and Miss mlin coock are you the uh architect of record for this project I am the architect of record for this project and I have supervised the development of all
the documents thank you okay thank you we'll recognize who as an expert thank you very much um Mr Cohen um so needless to say Mar you um you are familiar with the site in the general neighborhood yes and you've been
on on site personally visited the charter Club on several occasions I have been personally on site and I have been involved with this project since 2015 okay should be a club member honorary
yes um have you taken the time to review the several memoranda memoranda that I mentioned in my opening remarks so you're aware of the issues raised by uh the board staff yes I have read both of the memos um and have considered them in
relationship to our application and you are prepared to address the issues which were raised as pertains to the architecture the floor plans and the building elevations yes okay now in preparation for this meeting we agreed that you would prepare a slide deck to
enhance your presentation do you have that I do have that slide de the board know I'll let you run with it from slide number one all right let me share again Mr rol you would like this to be collectively A2 A2 is just fine thank
you thank you okay I do have um 25 slides in my deck we may not look at all of them um some of them are here in case questions come up and things like that okay so to
begin um I just wanted to give a brief overview of the context of the club and its development so the building that we're all familiar with today is actually well in in the history of the club it's the third Clubhouse but it's the second clubhous on this site the
original building in 1903 was a house which was then um which predated the club and was then renovated by the club and used briefly and you know at that time as you can see in these photographs
Prospect Avenue was much less developed you know to the South was Countryside looking down across the valley and then immediately to the north at that time the football field was there um this sort of sighting you know really I think helped
the clubs develop their um you know they're definitely a kind of key Lynch pin for alumni involvement with the university and the community um by coming back to these clubs and using them as a base during you know various
events at the University so um this was these are photos of the original building and in the background here you can see the building that was the squash court that has been mentioned several times um that was we did a little bit more research after and speaking with
club members after we went to HPC and have been told anecdotally that that was built around 1905 um had fallen into disrepair by the late 70s and was taken down to the ground in the mid
80s okay so the the current building was constructed Circa 19 and opened in 1914 designed by melar and migs again you can see the squash court building in the background um the front facade is highly symmetrical Georgian style It's a
Wonderful building um and the building really today remains virtually unchanged from when it opened and served a membership of maybe 40 people uh you can see here again how the site was at the time of the original
construction and some of the interesting while highly symmetrical on the front facade the rear is this sort of lelf shape that was designed intentionally that way to open up to the southeast taking advantage of views and letting
sunlight into the building today the site is you know a completely different environment um it's much D you know the surrounding area is much denser and then the recent introduction of the C's School of
Engineering and Sciences development to the South has really Chang the character of their lot and how it feels so these are graphical representations of the existing site plan and proposed um my presentation will just kind of walk you through as
everybody has mentioned in their from their memos Elizabeth and Derek we have sort of three distinct additions plus the Pavilion um so you know some noticeable things regarding the existing site as previously mentioned to the
South we have the easement area this is a use easement only um the club cannot due to any development in this area the um service access is to the East and is quite narrow it's right up against the lot line pretty much as you can see
there's a small um dumpster trashing closure here um and this similar to the testimony we heard in Tower about the site dropping down this site does a similar thing so you know from the front on Prospect Avenue the building appears
to be much shorter and then as you get down here you know the full story of the basement is revealed so coming from the um the approach from the University as discussed as Holly mentioned you know we are amending our
proposal to include additional bike spots here at this new West walk um bringing students in with the introduction of a ramp and everyday access to the first floor in primary program areas right if you continue down
the site um there's the new open air Pavilion coming around in our aition in the back and then the elevator addition to the east as discussed so these are these are existing views from the street and we can just we'll go kind of go through the
different pieces of the design uh as Elizabeth mentioned you know we have worked very hard with the club um and then also trying to follow the secretary of the standards interior standards for historic preservation you
know looking at um having the additions relate to the historic building but not necessarily mimic it and you know so that you can still read the original building um with the additions being
subservient to you know diminutive to it so the front facade you know one of the reasons why we chose to make this the Ada entrance on the west side rather than trying to incorporate a ramp at the front was really due to the the highly
symmetrical nature of the facade and not wanting to alter that uh we did look we spent a lot of time looking at the potential of using a lift and other options and really just felt at the end of the day that that was detrimental to
the building so this approach with the West Edition patio Edition has been developed um from the street the elevator Edition here on the East is recessed um and is some you know
somewhat kind of dimentive in scale the um these slides are about the West approach and the Transformer location here next to the West um patio we went through long negotiations
with PS about trying to get this um as far back into the site as we could this ended up being our sort of compromised location and it is immediately adjacent to closter's trash enclosure um so it did seem an appropriate sort of
utilitarian location um this the placement does fully comply from a zoning perspective and we will be continuing to work with HPC on screening it with native plants so this is the current proposed
um planting plan um which will be continuing to Dev there are a number of trees being taken down here for this West entrance um so we were planting new trees in accordance with the the appropriate
ordinances these are views from looking at the west of the building showing the new entryway and the Pavilion and the rear oops sorry The Pavilion which so you can see here
this is the um foundation of the former squash court which will be removed the Pavilion um will be cited partially over where this was but it generally is the same size um and its architecture relates back to the roof of the building
and other structures for the rear addition um one of the things we did want to clarify just so everybody understands is it's really actually a very minimal extent of demolition um the ground floor level that you see here will fully
remain um and what we're really taking down is this porch roof and the railing systems and then the addition will be built over that um you know and we're keeping various trying trying to work as much as possible with the existing AR
cure this rear elevation so you can see here the um the elevator addition it does have a grade level entrance the accessible parking spot that was mentioned is immediately adjacent to it um so this door will both serve as a way
for you know a visitor who was coming to the club in a car needing access um and but it also will really support staff and Student Activities in accessing the site so the west side of the building I
mean sorry the east side of the building where the elevator is located it's um you come down the drive the grade starts dropping down this is the dumpster enclosure I had mentioned previously and the elevator addition will sit against
the existing building here this area in pink um or here and so wow and then you can see this is just sort of to give you a sense of the relationship um the height of we've purposely only kept this elevator serves
the ground or basement level the first floor and the second floor those floors contain the service and public spaces of the building the third floor is entirely bedrooms and the
club made the decision to limit the height of the elevator so that they could minimize the um necessary height of the addition you know if we had taken the elevator up to the third floor it would have start you know it would have looked out of scale with the existing
building say the frontal the elevation of this side and so that's I if is is the board interested in seeing floor plans or does this give you a sense of how the building sits you I want to be mindful of everyone's
time Mr chairman do you have a preference board members do you want to know anything more about the interior no keep I do have one question though you you said the the the club made a uh a conscious decision not to
provide handicap or elevator access to the third level which is which are bedrooms there is also a bedroom on the ground level um so they felt that you know by we have the one room that is accessible um and that that you know
that and that that's an existent room there's always that that room was originally the matron room um when the club first opened that's how it's labeled in the plans and today is used as a student bedroom okay so there is there is a bedroom and a full bathroom
yes okay very good that was the only question I had board members do you have anything else you'd like to ask the the architect I have two questions could you go back to slide 10 this one one more back this
one trying to figure out where these two chimneys came from they're on the so there it's part of this is that you're you know when you look at this you can see them so this is the architect the melar and migs
drawings and you see the one this is the side the one on the west side yeah and then this what's shown back here is all the way on the back um right but it doesn't show up in that other picture that's what I was it's right here I
know I I know it's there it just isn't in that one that this Pi the uh South lawn picture no I'm sorry never mind it doesn't matter okay they exist I have one other question that that probably doesn't
matter either but I'm wondering are you going to do anything else to try to screen the uh new buildings the back oh the the Princeton buildings so the club the University and Holly can talk attest to this as well the university is
supposed to be doing additional plantings you know so the construction fences are still up and the we have been you know the club has been told that the university will be coming in and doing lot line plantings I don't know what the
timing is for that but the club the club's intent is to wait to see what the university puts in and then um they may discuss with the university supplementing it with additional plantings to screen thank
you okay board members any other questions of the architect okay please continue okay how there MO is there anything else you'd like to add or I think you've covered everything I I can just talk speak to
the the back area where we're going to do that development of some uh plantings with the university uh we were supposed to start some of that in April of this coming year but it's been delayed there's also going to be a a wall and a
railing to the to the more of the east side of that back portion of our easement and then their plantings drop down almost like 15 to 20 feet so whatever they're going to do back there is only going to give us probably about 8 to 9 ft after like full growth
to give us some screening so we're going to really review that with them and see what the final result is we do have plans in place that they've uh supplied to us but I feel that over time we're going to need to come up with some uh
taller and more uh uh blocking I don't know what word to use to make it seem like it's softening because that it when you're there it is very much staring in your face so we need to soften theace space and I think as Moira said that we
have to wait to see what their final outcome is of their original plantings and then work with them with it so that it works out okay thank you okay Mr roli okay should we move on to the engineer at this point Mr
chairman up to you yeah okay Russ thank you Mar very much for everything you're welcome thank you everyone Russ you ready I am do you please remind the board who you are and what you do yes uh I am a professional engineer and
a professional planner in the state of New Jersey I'm president of Hell Valley Engineering I've been licensed since 1988 uh both planning and Engineering uh and I have testified before the both boards in Princeton at
various times throughout my career we will accept you as an expert thank you Mr you're familiar with Princeton's Land Development ordinance as well as its master plan uh yes I am and the site plans which were submitted in conjunction with this application were
prepared under your direct supervision yes they were and are you familiar with the site and the surrounding neighborhood yes I am have you ever personally visited the building and the site I have visited the site and several of the other clubs over the years yes
okay um that's right you worked on the cap and gown renovation did you uh yes we had two applications with cap and gown I'm currently working on another one I'm not sure I'm supposed to say which one so I won't okay we'll be another one all right and have you uh taken the time to review the various
memoranda submitted from uh planning and zoning and other staff um at at from Princeton yes I have I did not see any issues that we uh would not agree to address I will attempt to include the
those issues in my presentation this evening okay and at my request you prepared a slide deck which I see in front of us so why don't you proceed with your slide deck as you discuss the site plan aspects of this application and I guess
we could mark this uh A3 three and uh this is a a series of three slides uh color uh engineering drawings and aerial photographs uh and it's dated March 26
2025 okay all right so the the first drawing that we're looking at which is uh slide number one uh it shows two uh views uh The View on the left is an existing conditions plan uh this is our
existing uh survey that we submitted with the project uh it shows our lot uh which is lot 50.01 lot 4 it's 92 acres in size and fronts on
Prospect Avenue North is to the top of the drawing the building is shown in a brown color uh this is the old squash court remains all the paved areas are shown in Gray uh the red areas are our
retaining walls and we didn't color the individual trees but the Shrubbery is shown in a darker green um we also have the use of an EAS area on the University property at the rear of the site or to the South uh it's
total of 0.56 Acres uh so both put together we have 1.48 acres in in usable area uh for the club uh the area in the back as I said is a u seasment we do
have uh some volleyball courts and some sheds um but it's primarily outdoor activities there no structures other than the the movable sheds that we have the structures are are limited to lot
four uh it's 79 Prospect uh the building is 22,42 square fet our driveway uh as Mora said is very narrow it's 11 feet it leads to a loading area now uh with
access to the building here and then we have four parking spaces uh at the very end uh of the lot uh pedestrian access uh of course down the center uh of the uh of the property uh
into the front door there's also access on the side and at the rear of the site uh although not connected by any sidewalks which uh this project will remedy uh the aerial photograph uh this is a
2020 a photograph zoom in just a little bit so this shows um our our site is located here in red with the easement area in dashed red
Prospect Avenue to the top uh it shows the adjacent cloer in BST Hall across the street is Bowen Hall in North Garage uh Olden is here uh and because a general idea of
what the surrounding properties uh look like let's jump to slide number two um this is the site plan I'm going to first just quickly describe the proposal I think it's been done pretty
well by the previous Witnesses but let's quickly go through that and then we'll talk about the zoning and where we stand with all the various requirements of the E2 Zone um let's start with the concrete
pedestrian walkway I'm tracing that now uh that runs from prospect on the east on the West Side excuse me of the uh building to the back to the proposed Pavilion which I'm circling now that Pavilion is 17 by 32 it's located in the
same general area as the squash court uh Foundation that remained and that of course uh will be removed when the uh Pavilion is constructed uh this walkway provides
access to the new Blu Stone Terrace which is one of our accessible location points as as Mora described uh there is a ramp uh that allows accessible access here below that
is our new utility room so they we utilize that space uh below grade for our new utility access uh the red area here is the new Transformer location um this is the uh bicycle
parking that Holly was describing uh we need eight spaces and I'll describe how I came up with eight spaces but we need eight spaces so we need to provide four inverted U bike racks you can put a bike on either side
of the inverted U as Holly said we'll uh install them in the ground with gravel and metal Edge uh that gravel will be gray in color to kind of match the sidewalk and and so that it looks good
um as we work our way around the back of the site uh or described the additions I will go through that again the handicap space in the loading zone I'm circling that area now uh that provides that's
located really in the old loading area um and that provides direct access to the elevator addition so you can see the arrow on the on the brown elevator Edition is where you go into the elevator at ground level that loading
zone as somebody gets out of their vehicle uh leads directly to the elevator so it's real convenient um we are proposing some sidewalks uh both in front of the handicap space and also in this area
this is a sloped sidewalk so that provides access to this area behind the um building uh we are going to redo the pavement in this area it's already paved it's just in in some bad condition
there's there is some drainage uh that ponds in this area and I'll explain how I'm going to correct that uh when we get to the next slide let's look at the zoning um this shows the requirements
for the E2 zone now because our lot uh is .92 acres and the easement is five six acres we have to use the zoning requirements for a lot that is less than
one acre uh so why is that important that's important because when the lot is less than one acre in the E2 Zone you have coverage and you have floor area ratio
requirements that come into play if the lot was 1 acre uh or larger then you would not have those requirements so we're very very close to that requirement but we're not at one so technically we have to use
the requirements for less than one even though when we add our addition in we're at 1.48 so the the requirements for variances uh are for the side yard where the elevator
is going to go uh we're proposing 27.7 ft and the existing building is at 37.8 ft um the total Building height is 43 so when you're looking at the existing
building it would be 43 required 37.8 is what exists um the elevator addition is 41 ft High as Derek explained uh and we're proposing 27.7 so a c variance is required for
that I can confirm lot coverage um and I did correct it in this chart uh on my exhibit uh it's 17.4 because we only use the building not the impervious uh existing and it's 23.1
proposed so we're less than 30 and no Varian is required uh when you look at the floor area ratio as I said 6 is required uh and this is only of the 0.92 acre lot uh currently we're we're at
0561 uh and proposed will be at 663 so we exceed the 6 so therefore variance is required and as Derek said this is a D4 F variance so it's a use
Valance uh we looked at two things in calculating the required motor vehicle spaces and bicycle parking um and uh this project does not ex uh expand the membership so uh for
example the number of seats which is a a way that that we've uh used to calculate the required parking both most motor vehicle and bicycle in the past um isn't changing uh the number is
150 um and since it's not changing for the motor vehicle parking uh tabulation we're saying that there's no new parking required so there's no need to ask for a variance for parking uh but
bicycle parking uh we want we calculated the number of space is required um because we're proposing a new bike rack on our property uh that number is 150 seats divided by 20 because it's one
space for all for 20 seats so works out to be seven and a half so we round up to eight so the two bike racks uh that Holly was talking about are located here I'm circling them now with my cursor
uh they're going to re remain there but we're also going to have eight more here um these bike racks match everything else on the street so we really didn't want to change those out to something different so we're proposing the eight spaces and based on our tabulation of
eight we will comply and we'll use the inverted U type bike RS which are permitted by your ordinance R you prepar prepare to address the special reasons for the use variants requested by the club uh yes I
just have one more slide and then I'll get to that okay sorry I I tend to talk slowly I apologize I I'll talk faster I [Music] promise all right so this is a a color rendering of the utility grading and
Landscape plan and uh we uh again have it colored in the same manner the building is brown grass is green uh and the Shrubbery is a darker green um so uh one of the things that we were
asked for by HPC is to add the tree numbers that are being removed so we've numbered them one to four they're all in this area uh total replacement trees required is nine uh we have proposed nine replacement trees um there's a
maple a couple Maples and these a couple Maples a hack a couple hackberries a Magnolia and three Elms there's also a couple evergreen trees
actually 13 total and they're Hol and then some shrub and ground plantings I know we're going to work on this with the HPC but those shrub those shrubs and ground plantings are going to scream the trans
for um let's take a quick look at the storm water so we had a designed storm water this is a minor storm water project we have a subsurface infiltration bed it's located in this location we did two tests out here to determine that we had permeable soil and
that we didn't have any groundwater issues so we could properly site this we're increasing the ovious Surface by 1,816 square ft we have to provide a volume of 810 cubic feet uh to store
that storm water uh the roof uh the new roof areas will be piped to this Basin uh so that we can store that increase in runoff and we'll have a overflow pipe uh in case it doesn't recharge uh for the
larger storms and that'll tie into an existing storm manhole which is in our loading area uh this is that area that I was saying there's some pavement stress and we're going to be replacing the pavement uh it's because the water tends to Pond there a little bit so to correct
that we're going to put a open grate on this manhole and that will allow the storm water to get into the into the manhole and drain out it eventually gets into the manhole but it moves very slowly because it's a a solid G so that's the storm water uh
Derek uh mentioned a couple storm water issues in the memo uh Leaf screams uh pre-treatment uh and uh we have to put in one observation Port which we'll take care of all right uh I would like to go
through the uh the uh variance proofs uh let me just go through the two c variances first um we have a c variance for a loading space that's B17 A- 344b um
I believe that two are required because we're just above the 25,000 square feet I know we had talked about that only one was required but I think technically two because the after the addition we're just over the
25,000 um I see this as a C1 variance uh the shape of the property and the physical features located on it create practical difficulties uh if we were to comply with this requirement we just don't have the room uh and there's no place to go to to gain that room uh very
narrow driveway no room for truck turnaround and a narrow sidey yard so this is a pre-existing condition uh and our deliveries function comfortably without this loading space and have for many years uh and uh deliveries are
mostly for food and are relatively infrequent um finally the last C variant is a is for a side setback it's B17 A- 351d uh 41 ft is
required uh 37.8 FTS existing uh and 27.7 feet is proposed uh this I see this as a C2 variance and under those requirements we need to show that the variance will will promote or Advance a purpose of zoning
and I see uh uh the promotion of the general welfare which is uh purpose a and promote sufficient space in appropriate locations purpose G uh the proposed elevator has been positioned to allow access from the new accessible space and will
provide accessible uh access for accessible uh to the building and to the uh first and second floors um and will the B will the benefits of granting the variance outweigh any detriments and certainly
the need to um provide the the uh elevator Tower provides that accessible access uh it's developed in an existing developed area and existing Vehicles will not be impacted so the obvious
benefits uh far outweigh any detriments uh by these deviations uh then finally I'd like to go through the uh use variance which is as I said before a D4 use variants uh it's required to per uh to
exceed the permitted floor area ratio of 6 uh the building floor area proposed is increasing from 22482 Ft to 26466 square ft uh that's a
3,984 square foot increase uh and the f is 663 um so we must show that the the site will accommodate uh the additional f uh and as I said before this is required
because our lot is 092 Acres it wouldn't be required if we had one acre or more in our lot and essentially we do have that because with the easement the use easement we are over 1.4
acres so the granting of use variances must weigh the positive negative criteria uh Court decisions have emphasized that the promotion of the general welfare is an ml UL purpose of zoning that most clearly amplifies the meaning of special reasons and the
enhanced proof requirement from the medich decision is not required here since the club is of permitted use uh positive criteria let's look at some uh uh purposes of zoning that that this uh
use promotes so uh purpose a to encourage Municipal action to guide the most appropriate use or development of all lands in a manner which will promote the public health safety morals and Welfare and purpose C to promote adequate light air and open space the
introduction of Pathways from Prospect Avenue to an accessible entrance on the west side of the building uh and an accessible space in the rear uh are positive there's currently no access there's no uh disabled access uh for
this building so these improvements do provide this uh the dining room and servery addition will allow existing interior spaces to be returned to their original use and improve internal circulation an electric upgrade will be
completed for the overall safety of the building and its occupants as the existing service is undersized by today's standards uh finally outdoor Terraces natural ventilation and an open air Pavilion have been designed to provide adequate
light air and open space uh per purp G uh to promote sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of activities both public and private the project includes the expansion of the dining server servery area to better
serve club membership while incorporating features that continue and improve the use of exterior spaces and finally I to promote a desire desirable visual environment through creative development techniques the design of the
accessible Terrace on the west side will have similar elements to the original Terrace such as a stone foundation and cast stone ballustrade system The Pavilion will have a roof with flared edges similar to the main building and will have a standing seam copper roof
the elevator addition on the east side is in in proportion to the existing building and incorporates both the stone foundation to match the existing building and stucco for the upper levels the rear dining sery area expands upon
the existing first floor outdoor Terrace to provide enough space for dining equipment and new mechanical systems and storage and finally purpose J to promote the conservation of historic sites and districts open space and valuable
natural resources the addition had the additions have been designed to respect the historic design of the structure while upgrading the utilities dining spaces and accessible access fun functions of the building uh finally I have to look at the negative
criteria uh no variances may be granted unless the board uh can find that it can they can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and will not substantially impair the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and the zoning
ordinance as to a there's there will be no substantial impact on the character of the surrounding neighborhood Charter Club is bordered by other existing eating clubs so the neighborhood remains consistent with ad joining clubs uh we are improving the existing building and
grounds we are upgrading the electrical system and we are adding features to accommodate physically disabled members visitors and aging alumni uh as to be there is no change from the existing use to the proposed
use just a vastly improved one also as previously noted the club uses a total uh uses a total lot and easan area of 1.48 Acres uh which under B 17- 352 would not
require an F variance there will not be any adverse impacts on the Zone plan or the zoning ordinance I apologize for the length of that but that is the conclusion of my testimony yeah thank you very much you did a very thorough job for us as usual
thank you Mr chairman that um concludes our presentation at this point Steve you're muted sorry um can you take the uh site plan off the screen please yes thank
okay board members do you have any question of uh any of the previous Witnesses or the attorney okay um Steve I I I do have a question if no one else sure um regarding the the
parking and I understand you're not increasing membership um and I understand that point how do you have written rules how do you control parking with just four parking spaces olly could you possibly answer that
question sure um well most of the time um the the the spaces are taken by um some of the undergraduate members but the a lot of the time parking ends up happening that we end up parking um and
on the street or the garage um we don't it's not a um it's nothing that we kind of make it work we don't need to have more than what we have existing because we've kind of gotten into a routine of that where it it it's
it satisfies and it also satisfies a couple of the undergraduate uh members that live at the club as well okay and so were those they're not assigned or they are
assigned the they're assign they are two of of them are assigned um to to the space uh for for undergraduate m membership and then the remaining are for um for whoever we have and then the rest of our staff and people Park
elsewhere and if you have a lucky day even there an alumnus that comes by you can sneak in and give me a call and maybe there's a spot for you that's how we got of do it okay thank you any other questions for the uh
Witnesses or the attorney okay all right Mr Rolie we will open this up to the public do you want to say anything before we do that and I don't think so Mr C I think U our professionals have done a Yan's job of explaining everything and um giving all
the pertinent necessary details for the board to hopefully approve uh all all the aspects of this application okay thank you okay uh to the public we're going to open this to public comment if there anyone who would like to speak on behalf of this
application please indicate that by raising your hands on the bottom of the screen Claudia has anyone indicated they'd like to speak on behalf of this application um Elizabeth just raise her
hand Elizabeth Kim okay okay Elizabeth please I realize this is the time for me to talk and not when you're making a motion so um so in support of the application I mean there are certain things that I want to kind
of elaborate on which I didn't just because um I know that the applicant had a great presentation which they had done for HPC and they've also done tonight so um this um eating Club if you look at the
old original designs has actually never changed so what you see today is what it looked like at the time it was constructed and it's really in pristine condition so um the sensitivity that they had done in the design where an
elevator is needed which we're seeing um and I know there's more coming um and the fact that they are meeting the Secretary of interior standards which is you did not replicate the material that you have an existing building because you wanted to find
what's existing and what's in addition so they did keep the water table at the same elevation um they changed the material instead of the stone to a stucco they um provided some faux windows with some Cal cast stone um
Sills and headers to just kind of break up the mass of the north and east elevation of that elevator Tower um but to um also retain the Rhythm of the fenestration really along the streetcap more than the than the side elevation so
all those things were really um done sensitively um in addition the applicant had also offered instead of the proposed slate roof on the tower that they would consider putting a copper which would be in keeping with their Pavilion um so HPC
was really very happy with the sensitivity that they had done with this um in addition um which I inadvertently left out um there was a concern which was
the Transformer it's big it's six feet tall and we had seen that when they came in for concept review I think last March in 2024 and um what we understand is psng is going to be imposing this on all the
eating clubs they're not going to be upgrading their line on Prospect Avenue they're going to pose it on on uh the eating clubs and what when we had had this discussion at HBC um they had told us that they wanted to actually put it very close to the
right of light so they were able to come to agreement that they could push it back um so one of the um one of the things that the applicant greed on is that they would work with HBC to make the landscape integrate better with what's there or
what's being added only because because you have a six-foot Transformer and you're trying to screen it you're going to think what's behind there so that's why wanted to be able to work with them and the applicant had agreed on that so
again in support of what the applicant has done and the sensitivity of um the design they came up with I just wanted to bring that to the board's attention okay okay thank you very much all right um Claudia has anyone else
indicated they'd like to speak on behalf of this application there are no hands okay all right we'll give that a second or two all right we're going to close the public portion of the hearing and again Mr Rolie before we go into executive
session would you like to say anything uh I think I will defer the opportunity Mr CO as much as I'd love to speak and the say okay thank you okay uh board members we're going into going into
executive session does anyone have any comments on this application questions or possible motion well I'd like to say I think the the proposed modifications to the house are very well done and in keeping with
with the original character of the building itself from an architectural standpoint I agree yeah agree I would like to say to Michael maybe Michael that is the same thing I
did in one of the slides there were at least seven or eight cars parked down in the bottom of that lot in one of the pictures and since I live on Prospect I've given up on parking so it doesn't make any difference to me but I think aring must be a horrendous problem for all
those their kids at Wild par but I I do like the project and I uh unless somebody else is GNA speak I'll propose that we approve
it do do you do you want to add to that motion I believe the applicant has indicated that they will comply with the staff comments in the Bridger Weissman memo and with the HPC comment so I don't know if you'd like to make that a
condition of the resolution I think that's fine okay I'll second thank you any questions on the motion okay Claudia would you like to call Ro
please miss cson Eve I can't hear you I know I was having trouble unmuting it yes Miss Mr Floy yes Mr Shriver yes Mr
Tenon bom yes Miss Donna yes Mr Stein yes chairman Cohen yes thank you thank you very much well thank you Mr chairman members of the board it's been a pleasure seeing you all again and we really appreciate your approval this I we looking forward to starting
construction at the earliest possible date thank you that's great have a good evening you too thank you thank you bye okay board members we have one more case does anyone want to take a short break
before we move on yes please it is 9:41 how about we give it 5 minutes to 9:46 okay thank you one want to no for
like just than PL okay e okay sorry the delay on my part um we're back in session now and our
last and final case of the evening is file number Z 224-4150 great road block 3.01 lot 101 1.01
2.01 11 and 12 in the e4t tzone Karen are the notice is in order yes the noticing is in order and the board has jurisdiction tonight thank you uh Mr bger can you give us your memo please
yes sir thank you thank you the applicant uh Bright Horizon's Children's Center LLC doing business at Stephen Kate's Camp um was granted minor site plan approval and a temporary D1 use variance by the Princeton Zoning Board of adjustment on June 5th
2024 to operate a for-profit camp at Princeton day school for the summer of 20124 the approval contained a condition whereby the board retained jurisdiction of the application and required the applicant to return to the board in the spring of 2025 for a public hearing to
review any negative impacts from the board's or the camps operation excuse me and to have the opportunity to request a permanent D1 use variance at that time um the applicant shall provide testimony at the hearing regarding any negative impacts from the camp um the
applicant agreed to use best efforts to request the municipal governing body to review the zoning District standards with respect to the distinction made between four profit and nonprofit camps the applicant shall address this concern at the hearing and that's basically uh
our memo if you have any questions I'd be glad to try to address them thank you m any questions okay I did have a Derek were they supposed to have done
some stuff and judging from this they they didn't do it is that what I'm reading between the lines uh I think I'll let the applicant speak to that um so thank you D believe they have testimony to address some of these
issues thank you hary thank you who's representing this case yes good evening chairman Benjamin we of prime to B and melli on behalf of the applicant Bright Horizons AKA Stephen Kates cam first off can everybody hear me all right yes not
in my usual spot so figured I would check in on the connection uh so first and foremost um with respect to uh I'll I'll address that uh that comment uh Mr tenom directly um as it pertains to Mr bridger's memo uh there were a couple of
items I I couldn't have summed it up any better than Mr Bridger himself there were two two effectively conditions of the temporary use variance approval that was granted prior to Summer 2024 the first condition relevant
condition was that uh we would use best efforts to to speak with the governing body to attempt to have the ordinance reviewed and potentially changeed to eliminate this for-profit Camp as a uh as a use variance within the ordinance
um which would effectively take away jurisdiction from this board and allow us to Simply operate in perpetuity without any uh any further oversight from this board and the second item was to in case that were to go nowhere to return to this board and uh and as Mr
Bridger indicated put on testimony regarding any negative impacts that may or may not have occurred at the facility last summer um and barring you know any negative impacts in the board acknowledging and agreeing that there were none then uh then it would be granted or we would seek granting of
this variance and perpetuity so to address it the way the way I figured I would uh I would entertain the board this evening was exactly and I think Mr Bridger led me straight to it we did have communication and uh and it was my yeah I'll call it a misunderstanding um
I had intended uh that my office submit the submit the email chain that we had with the governing body um and the representatives prior to this meeting it was brought to my attention that that was not done uh until earlier today so I did forward a copy but nevertheless I'm
happy to enter it as an exhibit this evening so the board has an opportunity but the long and short of it is um we did make attempt both uh my client and myself to work with we reached out to Mayor Freda directly um we reached out
to the clerk at mayor freda's Direction uh and basically the response that we got was was simply their the zoning office and uh and the municipality has to to uh to paraphrase bigger fish to fry and this just wasn't going to be
something they would take a look at um over the course of uh of this year between the last hearing and now it wasn't negative uh response per se it wasn't n positive it was simply uh we're we're not sure how this came to be and uh and we're not looking to uh to
investigate it at this point so with that we would revert to the other condition of approval which was barring getting that ordinance change returning here this evening in Spring 2025 and that's what we're doing so Mr tenenbom I just want to clear the record and I'm
happy to go through it in further detail but we did you know quote unquote satisfy those conditions we used those best efforts there were no less than there were four Communications between my client and uh and myself um with the municipality that ultimately did not
lead to uh the municipality investigating or taking upon themselves to uh to pursue an ordinance change so with that um what I'd like to Mr as an exhibit Mr ju yeah so yeah I
think maybe that would be a good idea sure can I just ask a question please of either um our attorney or the zoning officer have you have have you received any comments from the general public
regarding this application or I not excuse me either the application or the camp operation itself since last year uh no I have an i okay Karen have you heard anything you
anything okay yeah okay please continue sure so uh so I'm happy to uh we can enter that uh correspondence into evidence um I'm not sure if you'd like me to do that first or throughout the duration of the presentation um Miss Casey do you have a preference well do
can you share that on your screen now absolutely and then we could just make that an exhibit and if the board wants to take a look at it they can try to show the correct screen not my banking info can everybody see this is an email chain is that
what's coming up for everybody yes okay so I'm gonna start down at the first message that was sent um back on June 27th which was uh actually just almost immediately after
um last year's hearing uh and this was sent by Miss handibode who is our um operations expert who will present again this evening um and I'll just uh Miss Casey maybe maybe it's best if I just read it into the record while it's that's fine okay that's fine so miss
handbo wrote and this was directed to Mayor Freda hi Mr Freda I hope you're enjoying the summer season what a welcome repri from Winter huh I wanted to reach out to see if I may invite you to take a tour of our Stephen Kate's Camp Princeton location at Princeton Day School why you may ask well we hit a
huge roadblock this year with opening our camp and I wanted to speak to with you to see how we can help the city in the future the roadblock the city of Princeton has a list of prohibited uses such as Stockyards and quaries trucking Terminals and Commercial summer camps in order to get approved to operate our
date camp we needed to get zoning approval from the board for a Class D variance while we were successful in obtaining their approval they suggested that I slwe do our best effort to see why the law is in place and see if we can amend the law the list of prohibited uses goes on to explain that while a
commercial Camp may be prohibited that a tax exempt or nonprofit camp is an appropriate use why might that be do you have any insight I would be more than happy to set up a time to talk with you and would even be willing to fly out to Princeton to meet with you in person and give you a personalized tour of what we do so that you can see that a commercial
Camp does not function differently from a nonprofit camp on its face I appreciate your thoughts and guidance and I look forward to speaking with you soon all the best just hand so that was sent on June 27th to the mayor the mayor responded that very same day saying and again if you can still see my
screen I'll see what I can find out as to why the zoning is set up like that and we can talk then thanks Mark the mayor Then followed up um how many days in June so four days later on July 1st um to say Jess I talked to our zoning officer that regulation has been
on the books for a long time I'm not personally aware of the exact reason why we have a lot of zoning work going on right now I'm not sure how high a priority this would be to address as far as changing this regulation right now you could make a formal request to the town to change this zoning a letter to our clerk copied here would be adequate
for that Mark so that was sent um on July which was Midsummer um this was forwarded to me uh and I note that there's no forwarding uh message here but it was sent to me towards the end of the summer after uh operations had
concluded and so I took the mayor up on his offer and I emailed U Miss Harris who is your clerk um on September 19th and I wrote and this is a long one so bear with me good afternoon Miss Harris my name is Ben wi and I represent Stephen Kate's camp that operated out of
Princeton Day School this past summer I understand that Jess handibode was in touch with mayor Freda and yourself a couple of months ago and while we're only in September Jess is already giving significant thought and effort to next summer given the success of Summer 2024 for a bit of background a commercial Camp use that operates as a for-profit
entity such as Steven katees required a trip to the zoning board to obtain a use variance over the course of two hearings before the board the use variance was granted unanimously by the board temporarily for summer of 2024 the board felt that they were seemingly comfortable with this particular Camp operating at this
particular site with the operations presented on record however they were not clear as to the basis for the for-profit camp Prohibition in the municipality zoning ordinance and requested that prior to seeking a permanent use variance for future Summers we approached the municipality with a request to amend the ordinance
and eliminate the Restriction outright and also assess how Camp operated this past summer attached is a copy of resolution Z24 481 memorialized by the zoning board for your review I will direct your attention to paragraph 12 found on page six which notes and I quote the board further
believes that it would be beneficial for the municipal governing body to review the zoning District standards with respect to distinction made between for-profit and nonprofit summer camps and the applicant has agreed to use best efforts to request such a review I have further attached a letter written by
Princeton day school and I can uh I can send that letter after as well I can put that up speaking to the success of Summer 2024 and their desire to see the partnership renewed in perpetuity I also want to highlight some exciting statistics that were accomplished by stepen Kate's presence in the
municipality this summer 404 individual campers served 2,67 camper days provided six campers and 19 scholarship attendances provided and 14 full-time summer jobs created I'm respectfully requesting that the municipality look
into whether a change in the zoning ordinance can be effectuated that would eliminate the distinction between for-profit and not for-profit summer camps thereby permitting camps like stepen Kates to operate within the municipality in permitted zoning districts with without the need for use variance relief I understand that
serious thought goes into every provision of a municipal code and while at some point there may have been a rationale behind this decision it seems as though this particular provision has little relevance today kindly confirm your receipt of my email and the attachments and please let me know if you're available for some time to speak
in the next couple of weeks sincerely and then I signed it so that was since September 19th having not heard back from the clerk I followed up just under two weeks later September 30th um and I wrote good morning Miss Harris I hope you are well I just wanted to check and confirm you received my prior email
requesting that the municipality look into an amendment to the zoning ordinance to remove the restriction on Commercial camps kindly confirm receip and I would be happy to discuss further um again I copied uh the mayor as well to that and uh and I had not I I have not gotten a response since then so that
was at that was in September um I will stop sharing so that I can see everybody but I think Miss Casey if you want to mark this uh correspondence as exhibit A1 um yes we can do that and then what I
also oh how do I stop share okay and then what I want to indicate since that September 30th email and to date I have not received a response that is when we began preparing the application materials uh for submission to the board
to appear here today in uh spring of 2025 to you know what I'll say take the alternative route towards operating at camp this summer which is the permanent use variance route we began uh undertaking the application it was filed uh there was an initial incompleteness
letter issued by Mr Bridger um we unfortunately the engineer of record um who previously worked on the application passed away and his partner got rather rather sick so ultimately um we did have to change Engineers which created a little bit of
a delay but uh long story short um after being deemed ultimately complete we are here today now seeking the permanent use variants so I hope that's not a lot to digest but helps paint the picture okay uh board members do you have any questions of the attorney just
at this point he's going to continue by soon yeah but regarding this this uh effort that was requested um to try to resolve this without zoning board approval yeah I oh yes please yeah um
you know clearly he has taken the step that the board asked him to take um I was surprised in the and it's it's not anyone's fault that um the mayor
didn't copy the direct of planning who probably would have been the person to speak to in my opinion um I know Justin was on earlier is he still here he is yes sir Justin we'll swear you when we
haven't sworn you in so far do you swear airm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful yes I did yeah were you were you aware of this just in this particular no uh just now as when I
first heard of this okay that that was really the only question I had to you if you had anything to add U you know it was something that would particular with this Zone um but um
yeah that's that's my only question and and Mr Floyd to be clear obviously had uh the mayor directed us in that direction we would have copied Mr Lesco on that email yeah yeah but it is what it is so in any
case that's the um that's the Genesis of why we're back here today so uh I hate to say I hoped not to have to see you again on this application but um alas here we are and and uh and so ultimately what I'd like to do this evening is I do
have four Witnesses um available this evening and most of them are going to be actually all of them are going to be rather quick because ultimately what our charge was from the last meeting just under a year ago was to really speak to the operations and whether there was neg any negative impact um we had the
ability to re-review uh the hearings um from last year and it you know what really stuck out at least to our team was that I think some hesitation from the board in making the variance permanent at that time was perhaps a
potential conflict between the Stephen Kates Camp which is our applicant and the existing Princeton Day School non profit camp that operates simultaneously on the site so there was some concern about how is this actually going to play out which of course was an unknown until
we had the ability to uh to operate summer 2024 and uh and just generally and as you can see in the wording of your own resolution in Mr bridger's letter just were there any negative uh negative impacts as a result of uh of our of our
camp operating so I'd like to call this evening um our engineer Ralph Petrella who like I said is was not the engineer that presented last year um and I just would like him to reorient the board and remind the board specifically uh to the
location on the campus where Steve en Kates did operate and would like to continue to operate in perpetuity then I would like to have our operations expert Jess handibode who you did hear from last year um and she'll speak to you know some of the more specifics of how
summer 2024 went then I have Jacob gleon who is the Princeton Day School camp director and event coordinator and uh and I I think it would be helpful for him to speak from quote unquote the other side or the landlord side as to his interaction and how he believes that
camp operated um symbiotically last year and uh and how it would work going forward and then finally I have uh Thomas Ricky who is our project planner um you did hear from him last year as well and I just like him to at a high level reiterate the planning points um
relative to converting this variance that was granted um into a permanent variance so chairman unless you have any further questions of me I'm happy to jump straight into my first witness I I do have a question if you don't mind Mr
W if we Grant this permanent um variance can you expand that camp or is it something that's going to be contained at the existing level it that's a great question we're going to go through that in the operations the short answer is no
and and that's why the use variance route exists when you grant um a use variance as a zoning board and I'm sure you're aware but it is specifically and explicitly tied to the testimony and the operations that are presented as part of that application so what you're going to
hear that and I'll I'll give a brief perview uh preview the only change that we would be looking for in perpetuity as opposed to what was granted temporarily was a slight increase in number of campers based on last year's volume and
what is in per what is uh projected in perpetuity what was approved was 150 campers what is proposed in perpetuity is 220 so just about a 50% increase in campers and what that would do would
mean if there's any number of campers that exceeds that 220 at any point they would need to return to this board and seek further approval um or an amended approval of the variants that's the only change that is going to be sought converting this into a permanent use
variance everything else and the operations as they are this cannot be converted for example into a Sleepaway Camp this cannot be converted into you know additional number of uh campers beyond what is testified to the hours of operation cannot expand everything that
you hear is what is granted and anything beyond that would require an amended application which you will provide testimony justifying the 50% increase yes we will that's correct thank you but I I think to answer Mr Stein's question
I I unless I'm off base I think he was asking basically what's to stop the camp from expanding beyond what is testified to and the short answer to that is what is testified to is what the just like last year the resolution was clear as to
the operations so to going forward um it would become a zoning Enforcement issue if those operations were not adhered to okay all right any other questions George no that was the question good question I have
question I have a question um Mr wine when you talk about the number of campers do you mean the number of campers on any given day I'm gonna I'm going to let uh Miss handbo speak to the specifics okay
because your your email thread talked about over 400 campers right so I'm GNA let her again speak to exactly how that operates um and exactly what that means by 150 or 220 campers
okay okay so with that I'll uh I'll call my first witness Ralph petrola who I did see a moment ago there he is I'm here all right Miss Casey would you like to swear I will yes Mr patrola do you swear or affirm your testimony this
evening will be truthful yes I do thank you okay so Ralph if you could give the board the benefit of your educational and professional background and the status of your license as an engineer in the State uh sure I graduated from Drexel University in 1995 with a
Bachelor of Science in civil engineering I am a New Jersey Professional engineer licensed uh my license is up to- date and current I have been practicing civil engineering it'll be 30 years come September of this year I have testified
in front of Princeton planning board as well as multiple other planning boards uh throughout the site and most of you you would recognize the firm as vanard Harvey which is now penon Associates as of January
2023 well we'll accept you as a as an expert as we will affirm thank you chairman so Ralph I know there's no sight improvements proposed and this plan is going to you know look fairly identical to what was presented at the original hearing but if
you can nevertheless bring up the plan and Orient the board to you know the site and then the area of the site that is being discussed sure one second hopefully everyone can see my
screen yes uh so this is uh sheet ce1 which is the overall site plan which you received as part of the submission this shows the entire property of prin and Day School which is Block 3501 Lots
1.01 2.01 11 and 12 uh in relation to the overall site the uh Stephen katees Camp is located in the southern area of the site switching to the next plan which is
the site plan C2 Again part of the package that you received uh you can see here coming in off of Great Road it shows the circulation for drop off and pickup coming in and it actually highlights the two portions of the
existing school as to where the camp uh currently exists okay and Ralph I I silly question but you know other than you identifying on the plans where stepen Camp's Steve and Kate's Camp operates there are no
proposed changes to the facilities is that correct that is correct there are no proposed site improvements okay so chairman I don't really have anything further for Mr Petrella I just thought it would be helpful to again remind the board where the area is that the camp is located why
do you want this to be an exhibit uh since looks like Mr Petrella prepared something as you say it may be identical but since he's got his uh I mean I believe it was submitted at least 10 days in advance of this meeting but if
you'd like for it to be marked as an exhibit to be safe we can we can do that that's okay why don't we do that so we'll make that exhibit 82 sure board members let's hold questions until the Witnesses are complete Witnesses are done
testifying then we can ask them at once okay perfect please continue so with that chairman my next witness would be Jess handibode Miss handbo do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful are you can you hear me we can
hear you now yes oh okay yes I do sorry I had to uh change locations I'm sorry everyone that kicked me out of where I was so here I am okay so Jess um I know you testified last year um but if you can remind the board what your role is with Stephen
Kates I am the licensing and permitting manager for Stephen Kids Camp okay and that um requires you to oversee you know the legality and the overall General Camp operation is that correct that's correct okay so chairman unless you have
any concerns with us proceeding again with Miss handibode um you know she is the one who testified last year to the operations um unless you have any issues I'd like for her to speak uh thank you chair so then Jess can you you know give the board a little bit of a background
as to how Camp operated in summer 2024 and um and discuss any were there any negative uh impacts associated with the camp at the site um any concerns any issues and if you can talk about them yeah um there were no any nothing
remarkable that would have gone that went wrong um that was or could be perceived as negative um from our perspective in terms of customer scores and reports um it was generally positive
um we had um a good number of campers as Donna saw that we had over 400 different campers attend that does not mean 400 per day we stuck to around 80 kids on average per day um some weeks we had 60
and some weeks we hit it up to to 75 um so we um ended up seeing what we call is an attendance overall so as Ben said there were over 400 campers that attended um again that's not on a daily basis that's throughout the whole summer
um we have some really great numbers that I'd like to share with you guys if you if you don't mind um I don't know if you guys remember specifically last year when I told you guys about some of the more um charitable things that we do in our communities um but one of those things is called backup care through
Bright Horizons and that is a child care service that HR kind of Departments of companies can go ahead and partner with Bright Horizons to receive backup care benefits so um someone's school is randomly closed for a plumbing issue
they could reach out to backup care and they can get um a service at a center or at a camp they can find a place for their child to go for that day that they need while they're working um that's a really big draw and this location actually had more backup care days than
any other location at Stephen katees camp we had 200 or 2,322 days used which means that most of the campers who attended were actually attending via backup care um which is really exciting um we had 68 different
backup care clients some of those include Princeton University the Bank of America um there was another large one uh fizer was a big one um those clients uh those people who work for that company were able to use backup care
when they needed it um there was also a program that I introduced last year when I was speaking to you guys called Oz days and those are literally just scholarship days that we give out to the local Community because we find a camper who wants to attend Camp who maybe maybe
wasn't able to afford it due to um Family economic status we had 86 of those days so we had 86 days given out to the local community and the final number that I think is actually really exciting to share with you guys is that
98% of our campers that attended camp in Princeton are actually from Princeton they weren't from the neighboring communities we had a few obviously two % of those campers were coming from nearby towns however 98% were actually coming from the city of Princeton which I think
is very exciting thank you Jess and I know that was one I I let's see how good my memory is I think it was Mr Floyd who brought it up last year and asked that question based on zip code do we know how many signups are are going to be specifically
served from uh from the municipality of Princeton and uh and I'm glad you were able to give that uh that answer tonight um last year so one a couple other questions for you Jess so obviously based on the temporary variants granted last year um you know we were granted
for up to 150 days and to answer Miss Dano's question I think I think she'll tell me if if you didn't answer it but I I think you made it clear that at no point it wasn't 400 Campers at a given time it was just there were 400 different campers served over the course
of the summer with with an allowance last year of up to 150 so one of the things that we're seeking here for our permanent variance so that we wouldn't have to come back you know a year from now two years from now based on your projections is an increase to 220 from 150 to 220 as
a maximum on site at any given day on your busiest day so can you talk to the board a little bit how you arrived at that number and how you feel that that is supported at this site yeah that number really came from what we're seeing in terms of
registration right now for this coming summer so this site is seeing a growth that we haven't seen at other sites um in the last few years which is really exciting for us so um we're seeing a lot of registrations come through a lot of parents who are really excited about it
and um so we we hoping to do is to grow this site to what we call a large site um which is about 200 to 220 kids um large because it seems like the community um needs the care and and really wants the care um that
we're providing okay and in terms of um you know concerns with raising that number do you do you have any reason to think that the capacity um cannot be handled at this site without expanding your
actual facilities on the site no so what is in our lease agreement with um Princeton Day School is two buildings that are right next to each other with a large field in front um this last last summer we didn't occupy every classroom
that we actually paid for in the lease so we do that so that we can expand without changing a lease agreement without changing a zoning ordinance without changing any sort of capacity concern it would just be adding classrooms and and moving activities
around to make it more sense for uh increas in campers okay and I think last year you said that you have a this the state has a one staff member to 15 camper ratio um requirement so up to the 220 that
that equates to I think based on 150 I think you said that's about I think you had about 11 or 12 staff members um that ratio would be maintained so it would increase the staff by you know approximately four or five more staff members in perpetuity is that right and
I actually am going to correct you if you don't mind it's actually um a ratio of seven to one if a camper is five and under and 10 to one if a camper is over five um so we're going to increase the amount of staff members you know tenfold
so you mean commensurately with the with the yeah increase yeah okay okay not not 10 times the number no not 10 times I got you okay you know what I'm saying all right um and then in terms of all the other operations you testified to previously the deliveries the hours of
operation the site security um trash and recycling um you're not proposing any changes to what was put on the record in perpetuities is that correct that's correct so so in other words the way the camp operated this past summer that you just testified to had no issues no
complaints no anything um you are not changing any of those operations is that correct that is correct okay and you do understand and I think it's important you hear this because it was from a board member's question that if any of those operations were to substantively
change or any increase in the camper body beyond what you've testified to we would need to be back before for this board whether it's next year in two years in 10 years um to seek relief uh and put those operations on the record
you understand that yes I understand okay um I think chairman I think unless you wanted to go through any of those specifics that were testified to last year as well I think that really concludes my examination of Miss handibode yeah I don't have any uh I do
well actually I do have one question but I I um I'll hold that until we hear the rest of the witnesses okay okay um so please continue sure so my next witness is Jacob gleon who I saw him in the waiting
room I think in the attendee list he's raised his hand what you do you see him you see him now I can see his somebody
okay all right hi Jacob U Miss Casey's Gonna Get You sworn in yeah good Mr Gleason do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful yes thank you thank you so Jacob can you please explain to the board who you are
and what your role is with Princeton Day School yes I am the summer programs manager and event coordinator so I oversee um all of our summer different programs as well as any events and special things going on on campus okay
and that would include operations um of this exact this facility over the summer months when Stephen Kates is occupying the facility yes that's correct okay and you also oversee the Princeton Day School Camp as the camp director for
them is that correct yes I do okay thank you so chairman I'd like if it's okay with you for Mr Gleason to explain to the board from his perspective um you've just heard what Miss hando testified to but specifically regarding that relationship between Stephen Kates and
the Princeton day school thank you great so Jacob go right ahead yeah absolutely so um our partnership with Stephen Kate has been uh pretty Flawless through this entire process um they really allow a different demographic of camper to attend um that
PDS doesn't they offer more of a traditional format um with opportunities that we don't offer in our more so auxiliary specialty Camp format um so like I said it brings in this entire new demographic of people who might not otherwise have that opportunity to be on
our campus um so we do run in conjunction with each other very smoothly I said it's two very different operations um with little to no crossover so I think in terms of an operational standpoint it's a smooth as could be um from a facility standpoint I
do think it's a benefit for us as it does keep a lot of our staff in the building year round rather than just during those school hours um again there's no real crossover so it doesn't cause any issues to our facility but that traffic I do see it as a good thing um and then more so on our facility with
the operations like I said all those different people um being on campus it's a positive not only for the camps but also for the school as a whole um you know that free having people getting eyes on our campus on what we do is more than just a summer program but as a school in general is obviously a good
thing on our end so um all in all I do think it's a really positive partnership something that benefits both ends um in a year round standpoint not just a summer standpoint thanks Jacob and then in terms of actual relationship on site you
know during the camp hours um you're not aware of any concerns regarding for example campers getting mixed up between the two camps or or you know staff accidentally Meandering somewhere else or anything like that is that right absolutely yes signage couldn't be more
clear um on our campus but as I said the communication from Stephen Kate to their families as well as our communication is crystal clear and um up to this point there's been no issues okay and one of the things that was testified to by Miss handbo last year which just want to confirm as in effect was that there
would be a constant flow of communication between the two camps um as needed so you know if there was an emergency on site or anything like that and and you can confirm that that is absolutely still in the cards correct yes absolutely their team's been great
okay chairman I have nothing further for Mr Gleason okay I have some I have a question for Mr gleon if I may well we're gonna wait and oh we're gonna wait till the end okay sorry wait till the end yeah okay Mr wine what's next sure so my last
and Final witness I recognize it's 10:30 is Thomas Ricky who is our project planner good evening D Ricky do swear you in you swear affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful yes I do thank you um
TJ if you can please uh give the board the benefit of your credentials um and the status of your license in New Jersey yeah be happy to for the record Thomas REI last name is spelled Ricci I'm with Stonefield engineering and design I was the planner that gave testimony uh at
the first hearing uh I'm licensed professional planner in state of New Jersey nationally certified by the American Institute of certified planners I've been accepted before uh over a 100 land use boards uh including this one my licenses are active and in good standing will accept you as an next one thank you
chair so TJ you know high level but I think it's important to just remind and re the board to the D1 use variants and the relief that is being sought um that you testified to last year and as well if you can also tie in the operational
testimony that I guess we have this benefit which is non-traditional of a use variance application where we have proof of concept and if you can weave that into your testimony as well yeah be happy to so we are obviously seeking the D1 use variant and
just to remind the board uh we argued this under the mediji standard last time uh and what that requires us to show is site suitability why this particular site is suitable for the proposed use now if you remember there was two reasons number one was that the site is
already developed as a school uh it's it's perfect for a camp you have the pickup and drop offs you have uh the school buildings you have the the rest of the school recreational facilities you have Pathways I mean the whole design of the site was designed with
children in mind so that's why it's very attractive for Stephen CES Camp because it's already a school so I think that serves purpose a general welfare um Child Care obviously is very needed uh in this area in many areas that I I've
worked in um so I think that that is a big benefit to the community uh of reutilizing this site uh now the second reason for site suitability is that because it does operate as a school uh it's actually empty for the time that
they needed as a camp so the perfect opposite schedules uh make this very very efficient resource and by resource I mean the land the planners are always looking to utilize land and land and resources in a town in the most
efficient way so what the camp does is it has the ability to come in utilize the facilities and the resources that already exist on this property for a need in the community when the school doesn't so it's it it really is a perfect um perfect use of that land
which is one of the purposes of the plan use law which is purpose M um so that's that that really is the positive aspects or the positive criterias of this application uh now as we move to the potential impacts or the
potential uh negatives one of the board's conditions was to petition the council and the mayor on maybe some insight on the zoning and why it was in the code and if it could be changed um the applicant had obviously made their
best effort to do that uh the real reason is the board didn't know why I I know we talked about why do we think that this provision in the code exists uh the board didn't seem to know the mayor didn't seem to know and personally
I didn't seem to know uh I think that's important and when we think about the negative criteria and we think about the impacts of why this code is in place in my opinion if there was a substantial
negative impact for allowing this use I think it would be right out in front of us it'd be very very evident in our deliberations and in our discussions and I just I just can't find what that substantial impact or that negative impact would be now the second piece of
this and I think this was this was a condition of the board was to Grant the temporary use variant and then come back and ask how did it go I think that is an additional safety net that further solidifies the no substantial impact component of the grant of the use
variant the board had asked us you know do it for a summer see how operations work uh see how it works in conjunction with the Princeton Day School come back and tell us about it Princeton Day School said no issues Stephen Kates no issues it worked flawlessly their
Partners symbiotic relationship that we have here you don't typically do that for variances we have to anticipate what we think the potential impacts are going to be this this is great this is we've we have proof of concept here so that further
solidifies uh my opinion that I don't foresee any substantial impacts with the grant of the permanent use variant um I know it was just talked about just circling back on the ordinance about uh
you know why shouldn't this go to counil and do an ordinance revision and what I've seen in my experience is sometimes Council doesn't want to look at uh or sometimes applications are
done on a case-by casee basis variances are approved uh use variances in particular with the specific specific set of operations tied to them and what the board's perview is is to impose
reasonable conditions on a specific set of operations or a specific set of use so if Council it's likely that if you adopt an ordinance that says something is allowed then it becomes uncontrolled you have no control over the specific
sub set of operations so what I think probably happened here was they wanted to send this use as they do with other uses to the board so they can review it because that's what the board does review it on a caseby Case basis hopefully arrive to the conclusion that no substantial impact and if there are
impacts impose reasonable conditions on it which I think is exactly that is the exercise of the Zoning Board of adjustment I think that's the exercise that we've seen uh play out here uh based on my discussions with um Miss handibode uh it operated flawlessly as
we anticipated I I I don't see any substantial impacts from a land use planning standpoint it's perfect setup for them uh from a general welfare and public and Community standpoint uh childcare is important during the summer months it's important to the kids it's important to the uh families that need
to be working I see this as as a win-win um for everybody and and that concludes my testimony happy to take any questions TJ my my only question just to follow up with you because I I heard you mention the words need in community probably six or seven times um does the fact that as
you heard Miss handbo testify to 98% of the campers um were from the municipality of Princeton does that at all play into you know the particular site suitability for this use with this set of operations at this site yeah I
definitely think it does we're we're serving the kids right in this area that probably live you know close to the site so I I definitely think the the proximity of of where the children live in the site itself is is definitely uh is definitely tied to the sightability
aspect thank you chairman I have nothing further for this witness thank you continue that would conclude my direct presentation and um I would respectfully request the right to sum up and respond to any
questions sure okay um board members question time um I think harlon you had a question I had a question for I think it was Mr gleon go ahead is Mr gleon still
available yep I on the screen so M Mr gleon um PDS is tax exempt correct so PDS doesn't pay property taxes or taxes I will honestly say that I'm not
the person to speak to that um but okay not a problem Stephen and Kates pays PDS to use the facilities correct that's correct yes okay yeah Mr Tenon BM I think I see where you're going and I can on the
legal side I can try to answer that question if you're okay with it please yeah so they are PDS is a 501c3 tax exempt entity um that is correct but that does not absolve them of property taxes I am not a tax attorney I don't
know how how it's fleshed out but if you go look at the tax records you can see and I think we talked about this last year as well um they do there there are quite a substantial amount of property taxes associated with the property um my best guess is that as a nonprofit entity
they are reduced from what they would otherwise be for you know approximately 90 Acres of developed land but it does not mean that they do not pay property taxes okay I think I I don't know for sure but I think this was discussed last
year I think it might have been it's also in the material that we got in this um from Stone Stonefield that's Mr Richie's firm page uh I don't see if the pages are numbered but
it's I mean the the amount is 1,129 83 in 2023 in property taxes and do we Okay section d
one uh use variance relief justification number one under site sustainability criteria okay thank you for bringing that to my attention um the other question that I had was about the
um we went if I understand correctly from the presentation we went from having 60 to 75 campers on a given day on site um we had the board had given approval for up
to 50 and now the request is 220 um that seems like a pretty sizable jump and I I understood the witness to say that there were a bunch of um sort of advanced enrollment and I was hoping she could speak to that because that's
that's a pretty significant jump yeah I definitely can um so I want to make sure that I'm I'm clear when um I describe this so um typically a first year of a summer camp we see about 40 to
50 kids this site was a slightly larger at an average of 60 to 75 like I did like I said um and then um each year we see that our enrollment goes up and so it wouldn't go up um by you know upwards
of close to 200 to 220 what would happen is we would likely see a 20 to 25% increase this next year the year after that maybe a 10% increase the year after that another 10 so on and so forth um we don't typically see huge
jumps like 75 to 220 but we could see 75 to 110 115 maybe and then the following year from 115 to 1145 again the following year another 20 30 40 kids on average the 20 20 number
that we were throwing out there was um like I said my the VP of our company who who's in charge of kind of all of our projections for how many kids are going to be on site at a camp um he's really hoping and guessing that this site is
going to become a large site for us which is where the 220 came from and he's thinking about that in a in a 3 four five year span okay and and Mr gleon I understood you to say that the two buildings that were being used by Stephen kits were
kind of right next door to each other um is there capacity for that large of a number uh within those two buildings or is there another one nearby I mean what what is the what is the provision for that as she actually stated in her earlier part they do have space in the
current occupied buildings that they haven't even used so um with that increase they'll they' be more than okay okay just to to color that a little bit more um this last we actually used only four out of the classrooms that we lease
out and we actually lease out 10 so we've got plenty of room to to go ahead and expand thank you he good question Mor I was gonna ask the same thing um okay uh any other questions board
members yes Michael um you know I think this a good good report we got information that you know we had requested which is really good um and no major problems you did
mention on your customer scores it was generally positive with some negative um could you expound on the negative since we were worried about that sure sure um the negatives that we saw were very
typical of most of our camps so um my child didn't get enough pizza for lunch um my child didn't know where to get snack my child wanted to do sewing but there were no sewing machines available so it's it's some of the typical um things that we see for most of our
campsites nothing out of the ordinary okay um thank you um I think one couple additional comments I'd like to make um you know it
was mentioned early on and it it was sort of represent ations of the board um that it was approved unanimously uh last year
it we were really painted into the corner at least some of us we were because of the time frame the application was so late and you already had people signed
up that is how you got a you unanimous um I think also the representation on why the board sent it to the governing
body was related to the use variants and basically only that because the code clearly stated that a nonprofit was not a use for this Zone
that was it um it it wasn't like a sidey variance how close is too close um question I had regarding it sounds
like PDS rents you square footage whether it's interior and exterior but does does PDS and maybe this questions for Mr gleon put any number limit as far as
Campers at all no we do not okay thank you that's that's all my comments questions board members any other questions yes yes I I'd like to sort of drill down on the impact of the
expansion on the infrastructure which is to say if it was at Max 220 um and the other Day Camp is operating does that exceed the school
year um enrollment of PDs yeah I can speak to that so our enrollment um is just under 10,000 students so even with both of our camps in conjunction we don't even reach half of that so um in terms of that we are completely
good thank you any other questions yes please um I I think for um Mr Bridger um I understand that you know the issue is for-profit camps not allowed in this
particular zone are for-profit camps allowed in other zones or in no zones in Princeton uh they're not allowed in any other zones um they're not allowed in any zones in Princeton
okay thanks and if I could tack on to that sor this is Justin here um there are other uses that only nonprofits are allowed as well in both the former burrow and the former
Township you know uh First Aid Society schools in general um I think even like a private uh or a swim club type thing um so that's not necessarily uncommon in the former the code of the
former Township or of the former burough thank okay um anyone I have a question um I just want to clarify the numbers so I forget your number on the number of camper days and the number of camper days that were emergency care but it
seemed like most of the days were Emergency Care do I have that wrong no you have that right we had a very very very high percentage of backup care clients who used our facility Princeton you are correct in that but they must have been using it every single day they
were there yeah so some so some um employers give 30 days a year some employers give 20 it depends on what their HR department has deemed um part of their benefits package for their employees okay does that answer the
question yeah okay any other questions yes Michael yeah um I have a question for Justin I you know he just pointed out there's other types of uses that have
a you know nonprofit owner only type thing have you had or are you or Derek aware of that coming up on a a very use variance requests and if so is there any pattern on I realize we
have to deal with Case by case but not in the nearly five years I've been here uh we've had a few conversations with schools that want it for-profit schools that were interested
in Princeton uh and we had to let them know the process uh We've not seen them come to the board and I don't have any uh experience with it in my nearly 20 plus years here
so okay thanks any other questions uh Mr chair I had a few comments and a few questions okay who's it it's Justin Justin please now a good time well first
on the tax question um I just wanted to clarify that Princeton Day School is the owner of several properties so it's very possible that they're taxed on certain ones like single family homes um but not on the school building itself so both
things can kind of be true um secondly I do want to kind of respectfully disagree with Mr Ricky on the point of the zoning board application before you know zoning board applications in general um you know I think the planning board is
really known as the board of yes when the use is allowed um but the board can still put conditions on on those applications um but furthermore the conditional use uh classification is really the way
that the governing body can can further control uh applications and and impacts that they might have on neighbors um and interestingly uh uh not for profit camps are a
conditional use in certain zones of the former Township now it's very limited um but they are allowed um that would not necessarily you know this Camp would still be in the same boat uh because of its for-profit status um but that is uh
one way in which the governing body controls uh types of use and and the ability to have conditions on them um and I did just have a few questions um first about that 98% number um I don't want to be nitpicky on this but I
know it came up last time and I know it comes up all the time when I get calls from people in different towns that say no this is a Princeton address but it's not in the municipality of Princeton um are those based on a zip code or on what
exactly yeah they're based on zip code so when the when the campers uh parents or Guardians register um we obviously have to ask them zillions of questions as you can imagine um one of which is their their home address um and so that was based on uh ZIP codes and so okay
four zip zip codes that I was given there and they're based on what I saw on all of the stuff it looks like they're in uh what I thought was the city of Princeton maybe I'm confused about what those boundaries yep Y and I don't mean this to be a gotcha by any means but uh
just for the board to be aware uh the 08540 ZIP code goes to at least six other municipalities uh with a population I believe about 48,000 um and that's not including both of ours so it's about probably over a
third larger than our municipality um and I just had another question for Miss handibode uh have you is there a reason you operate out of Princeton day school or or could this Camp operate out of the other schools in
Princeton um the the reason was is just because of the relationship that we that we structured with the school um a couple of years ago when we started kind of our initial conversations with them um okay we do all of our you know demographic
research and um we work closely with the Bright Horizon's real estate team on where they have large um sectors of backup care clients um and so they give us zip codes that they want us to hit in order to meet those those numbers of
backup care clients um so we got that zip code and started looking at the schools within that area understood thank you um and then I just have a question for Mr Gleason if he's still around he's yeah here he is sorry about
that yes yeah no problem uh so you've mentioned the operations of the Princeton Day School operated uh camps there is there a specific reason why uh you know we wouldn't be here tonight if princ and Day School were to just
operate for 220 more students um is there a specific reason why Princeton day school has not gone that route yeah I would say it's just the model of Camp right um and for a lack of a better word trying not to bite off more than we can chew um I think our main goal is to have
this auxiliary and Specialty Camp um to give those campers that opportunity to try something specific for an entire week rather than your traditional Camp of bouncing around doing different things um so what Stephen cap brings is that offering that um like I just said if we were to I'm not sure we could
handle it as well as we handle what we already do so they kind of bring in what we don't have and operate it rather than with us they operate it on their own okay thank you okay board
members okay I have one question um Mr Le the total number of campers on any given day both Princeton Day school's camp and the Stephen Kate's Camp is roughly what
our so ours is relatively the same as theirs between 150 and 200 um is what we do so their number being that goal would be about the same as um mentioned it's not their numbers don't reach that ours
they pretty consistent between 150 and 200 okay so there could be a couple of hundred kids on the grounds day yes corre about security um so we have a full-time security staff on campus at all times
during operations um and that team kind of mans the entire property okay and they there how many security people do you have I honestly I couldn't give you an exact number of what's on our team but I know that we have at least three on two three on any given time okay
thank you and just one last question during the normal school year how many security do people do you have on site I believe that number stays the exact same so you have a higher number of students on a full-time basis then you're doing
the sum of but your security says the same that is a good question and I would like to defer as I'm not as the camp director I'm not entirely sure of how they're scheduling and all of that work so I don't want to give any information um but yeah it seems like your security
would be adequate based on what you're doing with full-time school okay um that was it okay um any other questions of the applicant the attorney
the engineer the anybody yeah I'll just follow up on what what you were asking about security to the health issue do you have nurses on station yes we do we have our full-time school nurse uh Works throughout the summer as
well thank any more questions okay so at this point I just had one question for Mr ju um Mr ju you in
coming now today for the permanent variance here of course relying on the testimony that was presented uh at your last parents correct as supplemented tonight as supplemented that's correct yes okay and as I think I said I'm happy
to have any of the witnesses speak in more detail I just I didn't want to take I didn't want to you know take more of the board's time than they felt necessary but um to the extent that there was something they forgot or or would like further fleshed out from last hearing I'm happy to do that no I
understand it in fact uh all the board members have even those who were not in attendance at your pre previous hearings did listen to the tapes of that so they are familiar with the prior testimony thank
you okay um any other questions okay so at this point um Mr wise you can sum up and then we will open it up to the public for comment if there is anyone in the public that would like to comment sure so chair and I'll
you know I'll I'll definitely answer any further questions or comments the board has but um you know generally speaking I think last year and uh I think we were given the opportunity to do something a little bit unique and you know while Mr Floyd Mr Floyd was 100% correct in that
it was June time we we were in a bit of a crunch um we're still in a crunch now you know it's still close to the summer but you know that may have played a part in you know the board kind of okaying it but if if the board recalls um we had made the suggestion of making it a
temporary variance last year with the intent of coming back I think I think actually the resolution reflects that we made that suggestion to then come back with the proof of concept to prove that this site is particularly suited for this use and that we can meet the
positive and negative criteria and specifically that there were no negative impacts associated with the application now one of the other components to that was to try and take a look at can we delve deeper into this issue of for-profit not for-profit it came up at
like length at the last meeting it came up here again at length um specifically I think it's safe to say nobody really knows why that was in effect um I tried to work with the mayor I tried to work with the clerk the mayor acknowledged
freely that you know he was not really sure why that uh why that ordinance reads as it does um you know had I had I been directed to speak to somebody else I would have gone that route as well uh we did try and and we would have liked as I said in my opening nothing more
than to have had an ordinance change whether it was calibrated to this particular zone or calibrated to this type of for profit use that would have been great because we would have been able to Simply forgo coming back to this board to seek that op to to seek that
permanent approval but I think the board did the right thing last time in baking in uh well if not that then What scenario and that's what we've done we we could not get where we wanted to go with the governing body so we're back here seeking that permanent use variance
and doing so Based on data actual evidence and data from how this Camp operated I think it was um one of the board members this evening asked Mr Bridger asked Miss Casey did they hear any any concerns from the camp operation last summer from the public and the
response from both was no um the site is you know a significant amount of acreage and what we're proposing to utilize is exactly the same amount of square footage that was planned for last year that was not even fully realized because uh because the camper count did not get
to where it was projected but we're not proposing to expand the facilities in any capacity we are seeking as part of the permanent variance the ability to expand up to 220 students um if that's a concern for any board member despite the testimony we're happy to talk about that
as well but I think that you know hearing especially when you spoke to Mr gleon that the the student body during your typical school day is just shy of a thousand students and obviously the ancillary staff that goes with that and between the two camps with our outside
number of 220 we'd be looking at about 420 campers which is which is less than half of of a typical school day so I think when all things considered you heard the testimony a year ago regarding the particular site suitability you
heard it again tonight but you also heard that the site is particularly suited because it it works worked in summer 2024 you also heard about the positive criteria and promotion of the purposes of the land use law I don't think anything changes between last year and this year with respect to the
purposes of the land use law but I think hearing that a substantial number of campers um come locally and the the camp experience offered by Stephen Kates is not contradictive of what's offered by
Princeton Day School it supplements it so I think that that really speaks to the general welfare as you heard Mr Richie testify to regarding the stevenh Kate's operation despite the fact that it is a for-profit operation you would not know that driving by it doesn't
appear any different um from any of the from a non-profit uh organization I I I struggle to even think how that might be visually appreciated but it's it's not it is simply a camp experience offered side by side with a different Camp
experience at the facility um at the Princeton Day School lastly I would just say and again I'll happily respond to any comments or questions but this is a use that allows kids to continue their growth mostly
recreationally but you heard testimony last year academically certainly socially as well in that roughly two-month period between school and I think that that's something that to allow Princeton in the municipality to
expand its presence for its students and for its kids is is just a great feature I mean the the 150 kids or going up to 220 kids that come to this facility would otherwise go to a different Camp facility somewhere else and I think to be able to house them locally in
Princeton is a benefit to your municipality um lastly just to touch on really the fact that it give you know being a use variance gives this board oversight I really want to double down and remind the board that what you're approving hopefully here this evening is
specifically calibrated to the operations that have been presented this is not going to change any of the operations that how the camp operated this past summer with the exception that in perpetuity we're seeking the ability to expand within the confines of the
physical space up to um 220 campers as a max if that gets exceeded we would be right back before this board if there's any type of condition or look back that this board would like to place on an increase in campers beyond the 150 that
was previously approved we're also open to entertaining that ultimately this is just an opportunity for the kids who utilize the stepen K Camp infrastructure and love to do so locally to be able to continue doing so so with that chairman and members of the board I know that was
long-winded but I would I I I hope that the board can see and appreciate the value that this product brings to this site and to the municipal of Princeton and I would respectfully request that the board Grant the application as
presented okay thank you uh well first of all just the housekeeping issue it is 1102 from a statutory standpoint we can quit at 11 I think we're probably in my opinion I think we're far enough along
and uh that we should see this to the end but board members any discussion of that okay so let's continue on all right so at this point um we'll open the hearing up to the public if there's anyone in
the public who would like to speak you have to indicate that by raising your hands on the bottom of the screen um Claudia has anyone indicated they'd like to speak on behalf of this application there are no
hands okay um all right so so we'll close the public portion of the hearing once again Mr wise you can sum up again well um I that wasn't a script so I'm not gonna attempt to to repeat it
but I I'll just again I'll just ask the board to to really see the value and I thank you very much for your time between last year and this year and uh and again if there's any concerns or comments we're we're really happy to address them um we just look forward to hopefully continuing our presence in
Princeton with this operation okay thank you right board members we're going to go into executive session are there questions comments discussion points motion I have a question um the I gather
you um Mr Wier anyone on the staff of the camp you um you employ counselors Camp counselors do you bring in your own people do you hire from the local area what do you do
yeah we hire all locally so um I know some some camps kind of hire International staff and and bring them in we we don't um we hire everyone from the the local community and what are the ages generally of the counselors so in the state of New Jersey
they're um able to be as um young as 16 um and as old is you know whatever um average last year was probably 21 22 we we tend to hover around the the early 20s okay
thanks any other comments board members first of all I'd like to compliment Mr wine on what I thought was an excellent presentation tonight I think he did a really very very impressive job
um I'm okay with the granting of the expansion to 220 students I'm not okay with granting um a for-profit camp to operate in perpetuity when it is expressly forbidden in the
code so where I'm having difficulty is I would very much like for the camp to continue um I don't want to have them have to keep coming back before us every year which I think is an undue burden to be placed on
them um but I also don't I'm not comfortable with um you know potentially tying the hands of our governing body in the future um by having this granted as a for-profit
institution and I'm also concerned about um setting the precedent that if our laws specifically state that it's only open for nonprofits um why are we giving to them um and if anybody else comes up before us the next
time and know each thing is done on an individual basis but once that door is opened I think it's going to be pretty hard to close so I'm trying to um and I love other board members opinions um how can
we allow them to continue to operate which I would like to do uh and also like to Grant the expansion to 220 but kind of reserve the right for whenever our government gets around to it um to be able to enforce the nonprofit um part
of the law and that's what I'm wrestling with so if anybody else has shares my concerns or has some suggestions I I'd really like to hear them it's it'sin I've been wrestling with that a little bit too and one of the thoughts I had is that
maybe we could say like I I don't maybe we could say like five years maybe that would give the governing body time to think about it and come up with something I I'm a little uncomfortable and yet it feels it feels
in this case it feels a little bit well we don't know why we don't know why it was set up that way this seems like a great facility I don't see anything I mean even including that maybe 08540 really means Kingston sometimes um
that doesn't particularly bother me um I but I just I wonder if that would be a way that we could that would I think coming back every year would be really kind of punitive but I
something which wasn't in perpetuity might make us feel more comfortable and maybe five years would that was what I came up with I have a question for Mr Bridger and Mr lco and that is how would that
change in the ordinance perhaps narrowly tailored to camps or in some way not card blanch fit into the general uh review of zoning that I believe is
ongoing wouldn't that be more of a policy issue George I mean a policy issue that would play out in a zoning requirement I mean it's whether I don't think think from a it's it's almost like a um it's a
policy of the Town not to allow for-profit camps but it's not that decision on the part of the zoning board no I I agree with that I'm just saying as my understanding the zoning
regulations of princ in conformance with the new master plan are being reviewed and so the question is how would this sort of change fit into that review if you have any information on
that Derek if you don't mind I'll take that ask we're in the process of writing a request for a proposal for a consultant to review basically a a full uh zoning code rewrite we know we have to harmonize and we know we have to
modernize so we're going to do both at once it's going to take a while but everything's going to be on the table so I can't necessarily predict right now you know maybe the text stays exactly the same as it is maybe it changes completely um but
everything will be on the table and and we will be looking at uh a lot of these codes that haven't been updated in a very long time let me just let me just ask a question here um keep in mind that when you gave the
temporary variants like last year the instruction was for the applicant to return to you now uh and have the opportunity to ask for permanent varing the resolution that was previously adopted reflects testimony
from a PDS representative I think it's Miss Gibson who explained that uh PDS was happy that this variant would be what should we say um limited to the
operations of this applicant that if PDS decided they wanted to get a different for camp for-profit Camp operator they would come back now you've heard the testimony from the
applicant and I guess my question for you is keeping all this in mind what would they come back to you within five years and what would they tell you in five years that that the traffic is still okay
or they still get positive reviews because I assume they would not continue to lease space of PDs if the if the camp was not popular and if it was not um or put another way if there were
issues with the operation and I'm thinking primarily traffic or you know but some kind of a security problem um they would be brought back to the board because they'd be violating
the conditions of their approval they testified a year ago here here's how it would operate they've come back tonight to say with the exception of being able to eventually expand the number daily
campers they intend to comply with the operational system that they testified to so I'm trying to figure out what would they come back to you within five and if it was five years or three years or
whatever what what would you be looking for them to say yeah I'm not as concerned about what they would be coming back for they've done their part they reached out to the mayor they've done what they're supposed to do they've met all of what we've requested I would like to give the
mayor's office or the township the opportunity um of more time I I don't think that it's I don't think it's anything that's on them um there's a reason why the law says that it's meant to be
nonprofit I didn't write the law I wasn't there in the you know 60s or 70s wherever it was um but there must have been some thinking about it and moreover there aren't they're not allowed to do it anywhere else in in the town this
gives a little bit of cover for the municipality to get to it and if it doesn't get to it within a certain period of time you know it's kind of no harm no foul for Stephen cases to get the opportunity or the privilege or the ability to continue
operating um to grow if we're able if we all agree on the 220 number we're kind of giving them pretty much what they want except for the ability to operate in perpetuity and I'm not comfortable doing that because it's in I mean it's in clear violation of what the law
says I think can I comment now yeah please I think I think you're right um I think we're we're since there's been in a sense no input from the governing body on this when when the applicant has
reached out the governing body basically said we don't want to hear about it right now and but in the future with the draft ordinance that's out there and the now consultant we're going to hire to
review all this and make a decision and it's been a number of years since the municipalities were merged so it's going to be a while I think Eve's suggestion of reviewing it putting a time limit on
it I mean obviously having them come in every year is is a burden on the applicant but on the other side of that the comment that you made haran is is a is a burden on the town it could be a burden on the town if they want to make
a decision and uh so I think I think probably Eve's suggestion might be the way to do it put a time you know say you know we're going to give them not imp perpetuity but we're going to give him
five years I don't think one year makes any sense I think it's got to be more than one year but but at least this next five years could be decisive on fleshing out the zoning ordinance and the master
plan and everything else so there's it could be a very decisive five years relative to this question perhaps we should hear from the applicant I before you do that I I think we should
hear if any well obviously I have have some comments to make I think any other board members too because this is um we're wrestling with this um
I I agree especially with Harin on his first statement Karen I understand your point and that got me thinking too that it's sort of this blinded alley that you know
I I'll refer to it as that and Steve I understand your point too um you know we've got an additional testimony and the one that influences me the most
now I mean all all the testimony from the applicant was good it it and in my in my opinion but we also have the director of planning who says there are other uses that have the
nonprofit for-profit and it's townwide and that gives me more pause than I had the main pause last year um the town
is going to work on the zoning uh um yes they're hiring a consultant and we've been hearing that it they have to merge it they want to modernize it I had heard you know time frames of like two
not here but other places like two years um that it it may take so I'm considering all that but you know my comments are what I heard from
the director of planning and a little bit from the zoning officer actually escalated my concern from last year that it's not appropriate
to change the zoning with a the use you know or Grant the use with a zoning variance which is a clearly stated use and I was going to try to come up with reasons to vote for this by the way
and I Justin may I ask you a question um in the event that this provision was considered and in the event that it is not
changed but that is one ordinance that is left alone um because obviously if the town removes that restriction profit versus nonprofit then then the applicant and other camps
would would have no issue I assume with that um but whatever the town ends up doing that that does not that does not prevent the town from
applying that to other camps the only Camp I mean if if you say oh it all got changed and Stephen Kate's Camp still doesn't comply well we're only talking about one Camp we're not talking about
all future um for profit camps that may want to rent space from other private schools in Princeton so am I wrong about that because the concern is that somehow we're closing
the door for the town to effectuate zoning changes can I ask and you could always argue that with any use fence you could always say well we gave you a use fence but now
look what happened the town changed things so maybe we shouldn't have we shouldn't have given you that use fance but you did you weighed all the factors and you approved the use VAR um so i'
appreciate your input on that I I had can I ask one question first well maybe two questions one Michael the concern you have St Steve I would I prefer that you let Justin answer Karen's question
which preceeded to okay no problem no I think what I heard was more so the opposite that there was a concern that disapproval would be given that allows this Camp to operate in perpetuity or any Camp after within the
same parameters and the town continues to not allow nonprofit camps you know so now this one school one company have something that the policy dictates you know we don't want as a community or we're not changing as a
community or we're keeping as it's been uh so I don't know if I answered your question or if I flipped it but I I think that's what I'm hearing more of because you're correct in that if there was a change and we said any school can
now have a for-profit camp any church any whatever it might be then you know Stephen katees still would have what they received tonight those parameters or kind of the better of whatever comes maybe it's that there's
no limit on students or there's no limit on time or months or or anything like that I I think they would get the benefit of the two I don't well all right Justin just one more question for you so for example
if the zoning board granted a use variance for a funeral home and let's say it's on the edge of the residential district no one objects all right well that could continue in
perpetuity right because it it runs with the land so I'm I guess what I'm asking all of you is to consider what is different about this situation and I I understand
the concern is that there is some distinction being made between a prophit and a nonprofit Camp you've given this Camp approval based on a number of issues you looked at how they operate what is their
program what they offer you've heard testimony from PDS school so you're approving it on a specific set of fact no so I I guess what you're hearing me say is my concern
that you're limiting it to five years and then after five years assuming Stephen Kate still leases space from PDS would you tell them another five years after that let's just say this ordinance stays the way it is it's not
changed it's not revised there are many things for these Consultants to look at and and let's say this one is not high on the priority list so it it Remains the way it is um after
five years would you tell them another five years wait a minute why don't we just take it and why don't we live in the present right now because there are a lot of different variables five years from now or a year from now we're we're they're asking for
specific use and perpetuity we we're we have two criteria here one is do we give them that the other is is does that limit the ability of the town to make changes in their requirements since no
one seems to understand why or can explain why there a differentiation between for-profit and nonprofit when it comes to this and and then we have on the other hand we have the applicant coming back next year or the year
continually coming back on a yearly basis trying to get this reapproved so we're in a sense trying to do the applicant a favor and give him and and I'm not so sure doing it in perpetuity makes sense but I that's why
I go back to what e said let put a time limit on it and let's maybe the municipality doesn't have time to deal with it this year or next year but within the next few years they might I agree with all of you so far I
but I think we ought to just approve it because they've satisfied all the criteria for why they're asking for variances in the first place they're adding a needed and well-run program to the community we don't know why the
community ever said that you can't have not for profit or for profit I mean now we have to understand that a not for-profit status is only a tax status it has nothing to do with whether they're making money or not no such
thing as a as my boss used to say we may be not for profit but not for loss either I mean the PDS is doing this because they they need a little extra money in this time this school is willing to provide a little extra money and a terrific
service and I don't you know in know I don't think we're setting a precedent we're doing maybe this one question well we we in a sense are setting a precedence you know a precedent because
it's it's it's specifically excluded and somebody's maybe I don't think anybody's and it's not it's not our responsibility to do this and I think the applicant contacting the
municipality to try to get a to try to get some sort of clarification on what's going on there's got to be there's got to be some basis for this decision to have been made and and and in a sense Harlem's
right I mean not in a sense Harlem's right I mean you know we're granting this based on what we're assuming somebody did at some point nobody knows Karen's right too that we do a a
lot of different things other than anything else I didn't catch that well I and Carol is right too we don't go back on other things that we've done and say you know rej justify
yourself but we well we'll tie a a variance to a specific use or piece of land or an applicant I mean we put some criteria on it which creates a way out for the town so why don't why don't we give them seven years I don't look I
mean I have no idea whether two or three or five or seven makes any difference you know I just think that if this is if if the and and uh Justin you can you know speak to this that that you know the the town is
reexamining the ordinances they hiring consultant and the master plan is floating out there so I go back to what I said in the next few years there's going to be a lot of discussion of various as aspect aspects slate of the
ordinance um and this might be one of them might not be but it might be and this way it gives the municipality some ability to to create something that's thought out or that somebody understands because
obviously we can't find out why why it's uh why a for-profit is excluded chair can I weigh in with a couple of thoughts if if I may wait just hang hang on one sec yes you can but just hang on
um Michael Eve does that make any sense to you um basically uh no okay okay and but you know I look forward to hearing from
any other uh board members who haven't spoken I mean I think we clearly have people um you know where you're leaning or where someone else is leaning but some people are quiet or we can just go to a vote
after the applicant uh ask the questions they want to ask but you know want to let the applicant us speak now or well yeah or other board members well let's try the board members is
first and then we'll go to the applicant okay let's have the attorney I will just weigh in and say I'm still in favor of my suggestion okay that's good all right me too would be willing to make a motion at some
point okay and I'd be willing to Second it at some point yeah all right let's let the let's let the applicant attorney speak sure thank you I appreciate it and I think this is a very healthy and Lively debate about unlike what Miss Casey said with a funeral home you know
being approved for you know at the edge of a residential uh neighborhood I think we could put our fingers on you know why that's a prohibited use in in a residential Zone and I think if the board chooses to Grant it it's because of the set of circumstances I think here
we're stuck with a situation nobody knows and we've said this throughout this meeting and last year nobody the mayor the government nobody has any real knowledge as to why this is written the way it's written so I want to just float a couple of things
one is that you know as Miss Casey did say typically a used variance when it's granted it isn't looked back upon it's it's we've weighed the facts we've made it case specific operation specific and we granted so in that sense I don't know
how that's different here but on the the flip side by taking Miss coulson's suggestion of doing this you know whether it's 5 years seven years whatever it is while it's atypical I think it accomplishes two things I think it will
force force the governing body to take a look at this because in my understanding you as a zoning board issue a report um at the end of every calendar year I think I think that's a Statewide thing that's done where you issue a report to the governing body saying here are the variances we approved this past year um
and then they they they're kind of forced to take a look at that the other thing that may it may accomplish whether is is shedding some light onto why this is a specific zoning requirement if they conclusively if you're going through an ordinance change right now and they
conclusively do not make any change and they State why they don't make a change to this for-profit issue and they say no we really don't want this to be a for-profit um location then you have your answer and 5 years from now we have our work cut out for us to justify but
at least we have an understanding from the governing body what their thought process is and if they conclusively look at it and say you know what none of us can understand why this be this came into effect and they remove it altogether from the ordinance then we have our answer in that direction so I'm
not opposed to miss coulson's suggestion because it does put it puts pressure knowing that the governing body is going through an ordinance change or an overhaul anyways it does put pressure on them to look at this issue so you know Mr Floyd I I hear your point my initial
point was you know stands which is this is the zoning board granting any use any D1 use variants that comes before you is specifically not permitted in the ordinance so in that sense this is no different but where it does differ and where I think this board has a chance to get it right by putting on a time frame
on it hopefully not making us come back every year but by putting a time frame it does allow the governing body to examine this particular issue and make a decision on it one way or another whether we don't want for-profits because well now we've got a a deadline
on our approval that we have to come back and justify or they look at it and say this provision no longer makes any sense if it's from the 60s or 70s and they eliminate it and we don't have to come back but I think that's a unique condition that can be placed here that
would allow hopefully it addresses everybody who's on the fence here tonight I think it allows the board to have the cover of granting a a use variance for something that has proven that it works while also not doing it in
perpetuity and further also a little bit putting this putting pressure on the governing body to look at this issue during its its present overhaul so that's all I wanted to add all right board me any other board members want to make a
comment yeah um i b agree Coulson and I think five years is reasonable and I I like the fact that it's working so well wouldn't like to see it turned away
shut down but I do think we need try to get a ruling or a change some resolution from the uh the governing body okay Michael do you to say
something no let Donna want to speak oh thank you Michael um you know I I I'm always hesitant to um or or don't like granting use experiances where it's not allowed in any Zone um but in this
case um I see all the positive criteria in the special reasons and I don't really see any detriment and I think that um Eve suggestion is a really good one in that it gives us it gives the
camp clearance to go ahead with something that I think we all agree is a worthwhile Endeavor um but it also lets the board still retain some control over what is going on with a use
that's technically not allowed anywhere so I think it's a it's the best of both um it's a good compromise I guess um if I would do that I would pref I'm I'm not on the seveny
year I'm more on the threee and hopefully the town gets to it and if if they don't then they got to come back so Mich are you willing to say that if we give him three years I'm happy with giving him
three years but if nothing happens between now and three years that they don't have to come back and give a full-blown rej justification for it well yeah you know there'll be different board members or whatever but you know
if everything stayed the same it would get repeated again yeah that's with that how about four I think I again just weighing in and we'll take you know what the board's comfortable with but I think knowing
that there's a whole overhaul of the ordinance I I think there's a a lower limit of what's reasonable as well I I think like if we said two years maybe even three I don't know if the municipality is going to turn around the full ordinance overhaul by then so my
only request would be just something meaningful that gives them an opportunity to look at it so that when we come back there's it's either still in effect and we know why and we have to put on full proofs again but with an understanding or it's not an effect and we don't have to come back I I just I
think it should be a sensible amount of time where they have the full opportunity to make those changes that's all so why don't we do a compromise where we say five years um unless the um the laws have been amended prior to
that time frame and then everybody's happy I think so how would that work well I mean if if the um if the consultant comes back and in two years Time new rules have been um promulgated then we abide by those new
rules if the consultant comes and it takes seven years um to get that then you're for the five I I think that would be hard though because what if they there's what if somehow it gets sped up and it's and
it's decided like next December I mean that would be a really hard way to do business I think okay but I mean Eve you've lived here I think even longer than I have nothing has ever moved that quickly in Princeton so that's just I
mean that's I I I uh I I envy your optimism on that one I just don't see I I not don't mean it that way I just feel like it would be kind of a sort of damoc getting it's getting late I'm
coming up with odd metaphors but um I I'm also concerned that that putting a if the ordinance has changed then it comes down to changed how if it's changed to you know allow it to Family Residence in a one family zone is
that considered you know what I'm saying Mr Tenon Bal it's not but we're we're only specifically talking about the nonprofit and the think right understand and basically if we're look hopefully the ordinance will change in in your your client's favor agree and say it
doesn't matter whether it's for a profit in which case okay then then you know you guys keep operating if however it says we're insisting that it be nonprofit um that's going to require some um so you know it's um look I'm I'm
happy to do the fiveyear if that's what everybody says or if everybody's comfortable with I'm I don't want you to have to come back every year it doesn't make any sense um if board members are concerned that five years is too long and they want to you know give the
opportunity for the um for the new Zone new zoning rules to come into play maybe that's the compromise but I I too am hitting an 1140 Mark I was going to say in 20 in 20 minutes you're going to have to wish me a happy birthday so oh there you go I'd
love to give you a present I move we accept this proposal with a fiveyear review period I'll second that okay just just for my clarification because I'm preparing the resolution so the board is
going to continue this variance for five years years and prior to the expiration of the five years which I guess we would measure from uh
when the resolution is approved and its St of publication um the applicant will need to return to review the status I guess of the applicable zoning
ordinances and to again seek a permanent variance if if they still want to do that in five years whether it's a permanent variance or whatever they have to come back to us five years
right Mr wi is this acceptable to the applicant I just want to confirm this because as you've noticed this is atypical so I want to understand that the applicant is fine with this yes yes they
are they are fine with this okay and yeah all right so we have we have a we have a motion we have a second um do we want to have any more discussion on
this before we bring it to a vote Donna Michael vote let's vote okay all right we have a motion we have a second Karen you understand I I
do Claudia would you call the RO please yes sir Coulson yes Mr Floy no Mrs Shriver yes Mr tenom
yes Mr Stein yes Miss Donna yes chairman Cohen yes thank you thank you very much everybody see five years happy birthday and happy birthday
take care everybody Years thank you bye bye Michael incidentally the only reason I went back to five years is because I don't really care don't don't tell me you don't have to justify I respect your opinion no I'm
not justifying I'm just saying we're already started in year one and so they have to come back almost you know okay well that's that's all that's that's I think that's faulty logic that's sry you think almost everything I think
is faulty that's all you don't time to go everybody tonight you make a lot of motions and you don't know how to make a motion is that a fact I am delighted to be joined today by a very special guest it
is Mark