##VIDEO ID:3mrK_Xtnwtw## thank you Taylor calling to order the Zoning Board of adjustment R meeting November 21st 2024 the notice of meeting the notice requirements of the open public meetings act has been satisfied by the placing of a notice of this meeting on the bulletin board at the municipal building filing same with the Township Park and transmitting same to H County Democrat the current news star lger and the Trenton Times I'm sorry I don't see Jackie yeah hold on roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer here Vice chair miss rasul dami here Mr Steve fario here Mr Randy block here Mr Jim Ferrero here Miss lindsy K brel here miss lorett ktina here Miss Donna Drew here Mr James Miller here board professionals board attorney Mr John drill here Township planner Mr Jeffrey Vella here board engineer Mr raes Dari present traffic consultant Mr J Troutman here board planner Miss Jessica cwell here Township Township landscape architect Mr John Morgan Thomas here and board secretary Taylor vaugh here wow no absences okay all right moving on to the uh comments 2025 reorganization meeting conflict so the board normally would reorganize first Thursday of the month but the township is not going to be reorganized by then so the board should cancel that meeting that was set aside at the reorg reorg at on the third Thursday so that would be January 16 yeah that means the notice the annual meeting notice that was published last January covered the first yeah January you're going to have to do a special open public meetings act notice for the reorg meeting on the third Jan third Thursday in January then after that we'll do an annual notice for everything else February through and I would say we' learned our lesson the reorg meeting that should be scheduled for 20 26 should be 1 Thursday in January as an Al and as an alternate third Thursday in January then we won't have to do two notices okay okay did everyone get that yeah kind of okay announcements and distribution correspondence hearing none uh meeting minutes we have meeting minutes from um October 3rd 2024 does anybody have any corrections or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve don't move second roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss lindsy Co bral yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving on to the next meeting minutes for October 17 2024 any corrections or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve move second roll call please chairwoman miss schaer yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss lindsy Co bral yes Miss Lor ktina yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving on to the applications for this evening just one boa case number 05-22 applicant is Countryside properties LLP location is block 74 lot 5.39 359 Old York Road application Prim preliminary and final site plan with d variant for proposed three multif family residential buildings good evening Mr gromberg good evening Madam chair person members of the board Steven grw and her on behalf of the African Countryside um this is our third meeting before the board and at the last meeting there were two major issues one was whether we had performed a water quality study and the second was traffic um we've decided to bip parate the app application on the basis that the board had indicated that you wanted to see that water quality study done before you act on site plan so we're we're uh going to bifurcate the application and deal with site plan and the C variance issues in the future only correct and proceed forward on the D1 use variant application um Steve could you just move the microphone a bit closer sure thank you the um the other issue is the traffic and we supplied the board with a a very detailed traffic study that has been reviewed by your traffic expert and we have our traffic expert here this evening so what I'd like to do is present his testimony and then if you will recall we uh kind of separated Out Mr Ingram's testimony where he completed his engineering testimony we would then recall him to give his planning testimony on the use variant and then move forward from there um so if I could have our traffic experts warn can I uh before we start John is there anything you want to say to the people in the audience because bifurcation is not really um just explain a little better I advised the board at the last hearing that there essal elements of development besides address stand also to address they have couldn't feasibility the last hearing session the board told them what they wanted them to do and they weren't able to do it so the Aion that's found NJ 76d 76d says is developer El a separate application [Music] re no such subse the application tonight legally no problem and as to in order the bo to Oney [Music] that and they have to satisfy the negative crer two first that [Music] [Music] even and all they site with all the required information which by the way how much in order to have a hearing on yeah I think the only issue really in terms of the feasibility of the water that was out there was compliance with the ordinance standard regarding the water quality right you understand come back a what's the plan B how much time the plan is to provide you with the testing in accordance with your Township ordinances and we can come back have that done and come back within six months we'll deal with that at the time because I I think we might be able to go for preliminary and conditional final but we'll deal with that at the time when we we go there heoc brings so what we're saying is if we vote tonight nothing happens no permits no nothing so I just want everybody to understand that because you can't get construction final s final s preliminary [Music] yeah okay I I'm hoping that helps [Music] yes water not underground storage tank fire storage tank all thank you and I'm sorry Mr no that's okay appreciate it and if we could have our experts more in uh if you don't mind beforehand I just want to State for the record that Mr Randy block and Mr Jim Ferrero did um read the transcript or listen to the tape recording of the last Hearing in September and they are eligible to vote if a vote occurs tonight thanks Taylor I forgot that okay we're gonna swear him in or has he been SAR yes my name is William Mas em Mary asol yes em and Mary a s o l masel yes yes I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey Mr Mas can you please give the board the benefit of your qualifications as a traffic sure I'm a graduate of Sten Institute of Technology in 2008 Jack not here so I am a 2008 graduate of Steven Institute of Technology I've been licensed as a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey since 2013 I have spent the entirety of my career doing Municipal and transportation engineering work including preparing traffic impact studies and providing testimony before boards including this one and uh is your license in good standing it is I offered Mr masel as an expert in the field of traffic engineering you testified other boards he said this one and yes I've testified before this board I've testified before city of Hoboken um I trying to pick the other ones I've done I've done many can I I I hate to ask can you tell us application was here yeah I don't remember either was it the board of adjustment or the planning board yeah it was the concrete project you mean Flemington concrete okay 207 average road yeah okay oh oh okay okay sorry I'm not memorable very memorable testimony obviously all right we'll accept it thank you can you give the board uh an idea of what you did to study the traffic conditions and what your evaluation was yes absolutely so uh my firm under my direction uh we prepared a traffic impact report uh dated October 31st 2024 and what we did to prepare that report is we started out by counting doing attorney movement counts during the AM and PM peak hours at the intersections of Old York Road Linton Road and Old York Road and Wells Road uh from there we also threw a automated traffic recording device on the road on Old York Road just a very ify that we did in fact have accurate peak hours um there's a general assumption that you have an amm PM peak hours usually we call that 7: to 9:00 a.m. 4: to 6: p.m. the automated traffic recorder was left out for a week so that we could actually see on a day-to-day basis were those peak hours accurate uh we found that they were we also took a look at the weekend to see if there was any additional Peak that we needed to be concerned about and we found that the weekend peak hour was indeed lower than the AM and PM peak hours on an average weekday so we stuck with progressing our analysis doing the amm PM peak hours on a typical week de give me one second here my tablet logged me out [Music] naturally so from there you know the general prog the way that we prepare this report is we take a look at what are the current conditions today then we take a look at a projected future volume of the existing road conditions what does that future look like if we were to not build this site at all then we take a look at if we built the site what do those road conditions look like um what we found is in today everything operates very well at both of those intersections uh they are at levels of service a during the AM and PM peak hour uh in the no build conditions the way we take a look at Future traffic volumes is the NJ do has a table where we apply percentage growth rates on an annual basis um that say hey you'll be growing at x% year-over-year we apply that to the peak hour volumes that we have today and we get to see what it looks like up to three years into the future uh three years into the future we took those numbers Rand traffic analysis once again we saw some minor changes in the delays at the intersections um increased traffic volumes you'd expect that but they were minimal um everything still operated at that level of service a during both of those peak hour periods so then we took a look at the build conditions if we built the site and we looked at that two different ways in this case because the site had been previously approved for that office use of uh 40 49,5 60 square ft so first we wanted to see what would have the what would the impacts have been under that condition if that site would have been built out and then we took a look also at what we're proposing today which is obviously more relevant um it's noteworthy the office use was going to generate uh 75 peak hour trips in the am when you're doing this testimony can you refer everyone to the page on your chart that has that information sure uh you can see what the volumes for site generated traffic on page six of my report under the section titled build conditions so during the am peak hour that office building would have generated 75 peak hour trips now that's trips into the site and leaving the site during the PM peak hour would have been 71 trips and then as you'd expect on the weekend those volumes go down doesn't account for maybe there being some activity I don't know office building uh that that number goes down to 26 strips with senior adult multif family housing the 24 units that are being proposed the am peak hour trips goes down to five the PM peak hour is 6 and on a weekend you'd be looking at 8 uh so you can see that's a significant decrease compared to what was previously approved there uh and what such low traffic volumes when we added those into the of doing that analysis you could see on page seven the tables that we prepared which show you each turning movement at each intersection what the delays look like there and what the level of service for everything is it still operates at uh levels of service a during those peak hours so our conclusion is that the proposed development is really going to have a negligible impact on the surrounding Road Network don't think there's really anything to be concerned about I have a question yeah I got a related to delays related to the the what the delay the impact traffic delay delay okay so uh how do I read this in terms of what's acceptable right I by the way you've done a very thorough report thank you for that you're welcome so I was just curious to see what is acceptable versus what you're showing here sure so are you saying what sort of on with level a your testimony was the approved office would be level a and the proposed housing would be level a and what kind of delay they' had that's not my question today right now you guys did both of you did that and even today what are the delays how do I understand that what what's what's accepted yeah so typically I would start looking at a level of service usually C or worse um what what the level of service does is it basically takes the delay for the intersection and it assigns a letter grade based upon what that delay is um kind of for lack of a better way to put it thumbs it down right the a level of service C or greater I would start paying attention to hey there there might be some traffic issue here um we take a look at how things were degrading to then you say all right well how could we potentially mitigate this if there was an unacceptable delay there with these being such minimal delays I think the maximum we have is Wells Road westbound something it's like 11 and a half seconds um so they're really minimal delays and so where would it be on the grid there is it you said c back can you tell the board level a means how much delay level B means how much a level c means what level d means what level f means what and that also the audience understands the impact that's what I'm asking I'm going to have to uh also ask Mr Troutman to keep me honest here because I'm trying to remember the numbers up at the top of my head I already asked Mr Troutman to be prepared for that tell you right now I believe the level of service a uh goes up to 13 seconds 12 seconds something like that um the level of service B runs up to I believe it's 20 C oh thank you Wayne so we have uh level of service a is 10 seconds B level of service a is zero to 10 seconds correct correct level of service B is what 10 to 20 seconds okay level level of service C is going to be 20 to 35 seconds D the level of service D is going to be 35 to 55 seconds e a level of service e will be 55 to 85 and what's an f f would be 85 and0 85 actually those are incorrect those are for a traffic signal controll intersection we're doing stop control so it's it's it's lower delay thresh okay so have scratch all that okay so scratch that we want yeah do it again hold on a second it again can you tell us what you're looking at sure uh this is basically Google search results Jay Shay tell them what tell them what he's looking at it's the highway capacity manual published by the transportation research board that puts out the chart on what the level of service means based on the delay so let me let me ask you a question then I don't really want him reading anything off his phone that someone else gave him so you're telling me that's what the standard is can you just tell us what the delays are so that the people in the audience now thank you yeah I I'd rather have him read those he should testify and then he should confirm whether it's right or not okay that's fine whatever whatever whatever you want I knew the first ones were signal now we're going to hear for a stop controll intersection what they are for the Stop controlled intersection level of service a is less than or equal to 10 seconds level of service B is going to be greater than 10 seconds and less than 15 seconds level of service c will be greater than 15 seconds and less than 25 seconds level of service D greater than 25 seconds less than 35 seconds level of service e greater than 35 seconds but less than 50 seconds and level of service F would be greater than 50 seconds okay and that's all accurate with the highway capacity manual here's my question though you just read that off a phone correct correct okay not your phone not my phone can you just tell us what the source of that was can can you get the phone back and just see what the source of it was is there a website I want these people to know what it is if Jay can you those are the numbers from the highway capacity man I I understand that what I want to know is what site is he looking at J well he's looking at that the highway control manual who publishes that is that an it or is that a de it's it's a federal uh document published by the transportation research board the US Department of Transportation and if you'd like the actual web ite it's researchgate.net is what's putting this publicly available information in my hand right now you said research what researchgate.net I I have some additional questions no um so you said that this traffic study was done for for example let me just the stuff that you have in this book that you provided this is all generated through the testing that's done correct correct okay and is that is that generated electronically is it manually generated how is it generated in terms of the actual levels of service the traffic counts which piece speak where you get the data from yeah so the traffic counts are conducted we use a subc consultant that actually puts a video camera up at the intersection they then take that back and they have people in their office go back and watch that video and count the cars and say this one's turning right this one's turning left so on and so forth okay so did you and I may have heard you wrong I just want to make sure I'm so did you have a subcontractor go out there and do that or is that your a company we had a subcontractor go out there and that um and with respect to you said it was under your direction um tell me what you mean by that what I mean by that is that my staff uh or the subcontractor goes out they do the work that they need to do in terms of getting the traffic accounts from there we review the traffic counts my staff then takes those traffic counts puts them into a program called uh syn Synchro um which is traffic modeling software it applies the various calculations that are outlined in that HDM manual and feeds us out those levels of service and delays were you were you as part of these testing um numbers that are in the uh in the traffic impact report were you present at this site at any time while the traffic accounts were being conducted yeah no okay so if not who was there uh the sub consultant that we used physically goes out there they mount this traffic camera the camera records and then from there that data is brought brought back and reviewed by their staff okay but my so my question is so with respect to you yourself you were not present at the site no I was not present at the site doing traffic C okay have you ever been to the site I have been to the site yes okay but you weren't there when studies were being done I was not there when the traffic accounts were being done okay and then you said I just want to make sure I'm clear you said your staff then you said subcontract so you have are you saying that you have a staff at your company yes okay and then you have a subcontractor correct correct okay and the people who actually did the U actual investigation if you want to call it is the um is the subcontractor the subcontractor perform the traffic counts yes all right and then obviously they put that you said you said they use a program they put it into the system and then it it spits out the results correct that's correct okay now do you have to because you signed this you signed this um report correct correct so do you then what do you do once you get those results do you do anything to confirm that this is actually correct I mean I review it to versus the traffic volumes using my judgment to say hey does this make sense absolutely do you ever do confirm by watching the video in other words your your testimony is that now instead of putting someone out there with a pad and pencil to do the counts and to take notes on which way the cars are turning you now put a video camera to see it right that is correct does that video camera have GPS uh believe it does so that would be proof of where the camera was yeah and you verify that I could certainly verify that yes that's part of your analysis yeah to make sure the camera was in the right location absolutely and it wasn't somewhere else yes absolutely and the the ever spot check by just looking at like certain portions of the video to see if it corresponds with what the subcontractor the data they gave you I I do not review the videos no I'm sorry what was the last thing you said I do not review the videos now okay so on the he relies on the subcontractor you rely on the subcontractor and you rely on uh his staff to count the well no no the subcontract as I understand the testimony subcontractor sets up the video camera it records right subcontractor watches the video subcontractor inputs the data and that's when he sees it is that correct correct that's what his testimony was here here's my question take the subcontractor out of it um anybody from your St how many how many staff members do you have in total in the entire company well you said your staff so just so you understand you're talking about French and pillo I understand that but you said your staff do you have people who work underneath you absolutely okay how many people are in your staff approximately nine okay so how many of those nine people actually went out to the site when the testing was being done none of my staff was at the site during the traffic so as far as your company goes you would agree that with respect to the testing you have zero manpow at the at the uh intersection correct okay and with respect to the subcontractor you said they did go out to the site correct yes um how many people from the subcontractor if you know when out to the site to perform testing uh I do not know that typically uh in instances since the time this report was prepared we have started to undertake setting up traffic cameras internally at French Prolo uh we typically only have one person that's needed to set that camera up okay so was this all like what I want to know is do you know whether or not the subcontractor actually had people sit out there and actually investigate and see what was going on yeah uh I don't know if they sat there and counted cars physically or I mean the typical process is what I've described to you we more than likely could get that video for you from that subcontractor and turn it into the board if you'd like to see it Well here here's the thing I'm not a traffic expert but here's here's my concern and and traffic is something that I think this Township is has a big concern on okay my concern is that you and look the result is correct this is a the report is very uh thorough um my problem is that no one from your office including yourself actually went out there you're relying on a subcontractor who's relying on video and video that you didn't review but you signed the you signed this report and you submitted it to the board which is fine if that's the process but my concern is that you actually didn't view the video um and I'm not saying the video wasn't up there um I'm just saying that you didn't view the video so what you're saying is that you're just relying on um the subcontractor to have put the video in the right place the video was up for the right amount of time and that the um results obviously spit out through a program corre by your logic I would have to do every traffic count ever performed for any report ever sure absolutely into the microphone is there any difference really between you having an employee stand out there and do the counts versus having a subcontractor have the video camera and doing the counts based upon the video no the results would be identical and that would be the same thing that you would do if you had somebody out there counting would be to rely upon that information of somebody being out in the field to do the actual counts absolutely but that's inputed and you analyze that as part of your report cor absolutely and ultimately what the findings here are is that this proposed use has less of an impact than the office use that was previously approved that is correct when you say less of an impact are you saying that it generates less traffic at in peak hours than the permitted and approved office use that is correct and that's what's shown in your chart on page five or six correct yes the chart on page six shows there's even a site generated trip comparison which directly compares those peak hour and daily volumes for the two so in terms of any other traffic study whether they've been done by an employee in the field is a common practice to rely upon somebody doing the counts either by way of video or in the field that you rely upon that is correct so is it possible to then understand who the cont subcontractor is and his licensing and who it was I mean do do we need that EV evidence that that's up to the board on how much what I mean we went through this with another application where the Drone was done by somebody right and we also went through this on with traffic with the person doing the traffic counts and they looked at the day and obviously the person would have been in the car and it would have been dark out but you now have a video my suggestion is to ask Mr Troutman do you ever first of all do you use subcontractors who now use video instead of sitting there taking the counts yes do you ever review the video before you do one of these reports yes okay under what circumstances do you review the video uh if I want some more detail on what actually happened during the count if I want to see you know what kind of trucks might have been turning or uh just if I want to see what happened out there okay no no so I just to follow up um can I can I ask one more more question of of Mr Troutman actually because he reviewed this study based upon what uh was presented do you have any issues with respect to uh the report because his question is assuming that the traffic counts of the video are accurate do you have any issues with the report I do not or or the way the study was conducted that's described okay and this is all again and this is for Mr Trum as well you guys are relying on uh the subcontractor but you both didn't look at the video correct well Mr Troutman obviously didn't he's reviewing a report Mr Troutman testified on sometimes he reviews the video and doesn't have a problem with that methodology but my point is this Mr try you didn't see a video correct I didn't review the video okay you didn't ask for the video right right okay and uh Mr masel you didn't you didn't look at the video correct I did not okay so so my question is then and by the way if I was to look at your report again um is the subcontractor listed in your report uh now uh in the appendices I believe the actual raw counts are there show me where yeah what's the name of the where is that what page bring give me one moment I will get that for you it's not in the Synchro you're saying it's on the it's on the account reports okay okay P 53 you have a DAT surve oh I see prepared by National Data and surveying Services is that the subcontractor that is correct they did the uh automated traffic uh recorders and French and pello did the manual turning M counts in the same method wait a minute when prepared by the subcontractor naal used the video you're saying that French pillo also used the video French and P yes also used the video that's what he asked you you said that the only person that used the video was the subcontract also someone from fillow did it I didn't I'm saying I did not review any videos I'm saying that National Data surveying Services did the automated traffic recorder French and pillo did the Turning movement counts both using the same methodology frenched the video when you guys put the rubber things down on the road opposite way National Data and surveys Services that's what I meant yeah I get okay but hold on I asked okay let me ask it a different way so there there were there were people from your staff at the at the site they only to put the camera up yes that was my next question the only thing they did there was put the the testing stuff down correct they put the camera system up okay now is this what you're talking about up here yes okay come on Len that's that's so just so I'm clear and and look can shake your head you can do whatever you want but here's the issue um you're telling me on this page I'm supposed to be able to read at the very top where it's I can't read that someone's going to have to read that listen if you use a magnifying glass you can I don't even have readers that can read that surve Services again it's a traffic count that I read from in the very very very small print at the top of the page all right so I just show the traffic count you see the right over there I read it it says prepared by National Data and surveying Services I have good eyesight when I'm wearing my glasses so one more one more item and that's for you J so I could not read that detail either what Steve is talking about how do you correlate traffic counts in this report with what you're showing here so my my report summarizes the data that National Data and surveying Services collected so that thing which Steve showed you summarized that to this is that correct yes I I went through the reports in detail and I pulled out the peak hours and wanted to provide a summary chart that we could discuss just so we could see what the peak hours are what the magnitude of the volumes was but you didn't do any independent study by yourself no no and we didn't ask we didn't ask him to we to the report he did what he wased to do I I want I want to Circle back make sure okay so we qualified you okay so what we're asking is when you did the traffic study it was you or your representative of your office that went out to the site and set up the video camera and put the thing in the road correct not the strips across the road that was our sub consultant just the video camera just the video camera was done by French and Par okay and that was done by the contractor here's the bottom line so when you said so so when the video was set up okay I'm assuming okay that they're there together maybe that's a bad assumption you set up the video somebody sets up the video at the same time somebody's putting the stuff down is that true they were not done at the same time the the Turning movement counts and you could find this information on page three of the report okay the Turning movement counts were done on Wednesday October 16th that is when that camera was up and the automated traffic recording device was set up from Tuesday October 15th through Monday October 21st okay so from the camera anybody who viewed the camera could they see the line the the strip in the road uh that I do not know we set up the automated traffic recording device between the two intersections that were counted um typically the actual camera would not capture that far down the road so there's no correlation between what you see on the camera and the count I mean assuming that a car were to progress over those strips to the next inter well I guess I'm trying to I guess I'm trying to to to if someone was looking at the video and somebody did okay to verify the count so I'm looking at the video a car passes up and the count goes up I'm I'm pretty pretty sure that if I'm watching a video and the count goes up at the same time watching the car that that line in the road is somewhere so so if I watch it enough I'm like okay I saw five cars one a minute apart two right next to I could verify visually that the camera and the strip in the road are in sync yeah and yet you'd have one dat on October 16th right that is when they conduct that's when FPA conducted the vehicular turning movement counts this is on page three of his report they said from 7:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. and from 400 P.M to 6 pm on Wednesday October 16th and those results are in appendix B the subcontractor took the video from Tuesday October 15 all the way through Monday October 21 so there was one day where you could correlate the video to the traffic counts October 16th would be the day so that's one way you could correlate it but this whole thing boils down to what level of comfort does the board want if the if if this is an accepted way of doing it it doesn't mean you have to accept it you if you wanted to get something from the subcontractor or if you wanted him you could say well can you look at the video to confirm it or you could say give the video to Jay but it's up to the board I I'm not telling you that there's a right or wrong way to do it what they're testifying is this is the normal method they do it these days Mr troutman's going to say yeah his office does the same thing they don't they no longer use manual people out there doing the counts maybe for some of the reasons that happen in that other case but now apparently they use subcontractors who do the video yeah I'm not yeah I I I I have no problem with subcontractors what I what I my concern is it's it's open to no I understand so that's why I'm saying it's up to you what level of comforter proof do you want you and I guess I guess because of of previous application we all have a little bit everyone's skittish I understand do do you want this expert to want to look at the video and confirm it do you want Jay to look at the video and confirm it or do you want the subcontractor to bring the guy in and have him testify about it or you want to accept um how they've presented it those are four options that I'm seeing can give you another option which is if if this was a um concern of C to F um and you had some real concerns about and the accuracy study but but this is evaluation of A and B service Steve that's according to the results yeah yeah that's but here here's the thing Ste here's the thing Steve I agree what you're proposing here is a lot less traffic okay I agree okay and she can agree based on the it manual yeah which we can take judicial notice of but the previous application the citizen did a better job and came in and and it was more believable so I I was involved in that application and I cross-examined that expert and and there was a a major credibility yeah so and and I know we're we're because we have that now we're grilling you or or what's you're saying why you there it's the attorney's fault because he drill the traffic expert in the other case however this is a different application I understand so is there any way we can take additional steps is there any way additional steps that we can take and prove it is it is it worth it for to ask somebody from his office who's qualified or himself or Jay to look at the V to the video and say yes with my expertise this is what happens I I I don't know I don't know I'm just why don't you straw poll everyone to see how they feel about it maybe some people are willing to accept this like this may I certain people are going probably want a little more watch the straw and see where you are John can I just correct the record on one thing too if you inspect the data summary reports it appears that they actually had video out there on two separate days because one yeah one of the intersections was collected on Thursday October 17th which I said in my report and the other intersection was collected on Wednesday October 16th so you actually so page three is wrong page three of the report is wrong according to the data reports in the back yes all right want to thank you for that Jay so it wrong what do we do why don't you Str P yourselves on do you want either this witness or Jay to look at the video to confirm the stuff in the appendix he's going to have to correct page three regardless all right before we do that Jay okay you're you are our expert okay you're hearing what we're saying what would you recommend uh on your behalf what I did was I charted the Third data the Wednesday data and the full week's worth of data because you can check against each other to make sure it's all consistent so you have Wednesday data and then write down the block you have Thursday data does it match yes it does and then you have a hose right in between does that hose match both ends yes it does so you you you can with all this data we have have you can affirm that there's nothing off in terms of the data because you have multiple data points to compare multiple intersections where you can add up the movements and check them against the other ones and that's what I do okay but that's based off of the data that was generated from the subcontractor correct correct but it's not it it's also based upon microphone the the automatic microphone microphone microphone it's it's not just the observations but you're comparing that to what the typical the the line in the road correct right all all we have three different sources to check for consistency now the one last thing you could do is actually look at the video and then you can see that the camera is at the intersection when you look at the video you'll know you're at the right inter so you're saying we can match it to the videos yeah okay and who would do that would you ask the applicant or would you who does the board want to do that don't ask Jay that who does the board want to do that if you I hate to say right now I think our professional you know I hate to say it you know and and it's again it's just so you understand it's nothing that you said in your testimony that had this reaction this is based doing your job I understand where two other cases but one especially dealing with traffic I can provide those videos to Mr Troutman if that is and you can look at the videos and and confirm yes at the videos and I I go out there too I always do a site investigation and watch the traffic myself and that's the other way I can check when the numbers come back is that consistent with the level of traffic I saw when I was out there during the afternoon peak hours when I went Which is higher in the morning okay um we we're happy to provide this videos to Mr Troutman um I I just do want to say though that this scenario is different than what we had before because that and I'm going to compare it because you had major credibility issues of somebody who testified that there was he didn't notice any increase in traffic in ridan Township and that caused the board to say whoa we don't we don't trust I to say one bad app on a profession kind of T us and but but if we get to this level of Investigation as to subcontractors and employees on every traffic study I got question it could it could bog you down no it won't B now if they say that that they want their traffic guy and all future applications to check the videotape to check the report it's not going to bog anything down it's just one more thing he's going to do well it bogs this application down because well it's bogging this application down because no one knew but I didn't know that the issue was going to come up okay but it came up that's what the hearing's about let let let me ask a different question and let me just see what Mr grumberg would say about this let's let's just say that the other applicant that you're talking about came in with this book like this which he didn't by the way he didn't his report was bad okay but let's just say he came in with this and he said in front of a packed room and said hey you know what I had zero man- hours there my staff was there for two seconds that's a little exaggeration we had a subcontractor they looked at the video they spit out the results and this is what it came out to and oh by the way I signed a report I didn't look at the videos would you be happy with that I would have to hold on I'm asking you a question I'm answering your question and my by answering the question is your board engineer your board traffic expert said he could take the data that was compiled not only from the observations of the videotape but from the tape on the ground and correlate it so I I I think that you can rely upon that as okay so you just I want to be very you didn't answer my question so that's fine you can answer it that way but that's not answering my question all right so I think we should take a poll yeah straw poll the straw poll is do you want that Mr Troutman to review the videotape to verify the appendices in the report are correct and will that satisfy you is there something else that you you're that you want to Pro propose right James first I don't think it's necessary at all to be honest because I find nothing to doubt about the witness or their testimony or the data because as Jay tropman said this is what he does okay so I don't think any of this is necessary okay Donna I agree I don't I think at this point the numbers and the level of Serv different is so di Minimus however the applicant really needs to not you know there's some issues of sloppiness yeah okay and their datas and reports that we should have clean copies right okay La yes I concur with James and also Donna okay Jim I'm just concerned it might be an Overkill situation of this of this traffic okay but bad experience in past doesn't necessarily me B experience every time we get so where are you on is yes you want him to review the video or no no no okay Brandy no I agree with my I'm gonna say yes yeah I'm gonna say yes yes gonna say no okay so we don't so hold on hold on hold on hold on it's not that simple it's not that that simple because there only can be seven we have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 nine so the two alternates we're going to strw pull without the alternates start with lorett no Jim no Randy no Steve yes Cynthia yes no R yes no so you you would only have four we're we're gonna provide the the video okay for review Mr Troutman okay my suggestion is let's assuming that the video confirms it because there's if the video doesn't confirm it it's one thing but assuming that it's confirmed will the board accept a letter from Mr Troutman saying yes it's confirmed so assuming that you got a letter saying yes it's confirmed is the traffic report if they correct on page three the actual dates acceptable on the traffic issue because if it is let's keep on going tonight and let's get to the planning testimony and what I can do is if you get to the point where there would be a grant we would just hold off the resolution till we get a confirmation if it comes back no obviously that would change every everything but you don't have to do this you could just say no come back we're we're gonna have to come back because the public gets to ask questions about traffic and before we present our planning testimony we need we need to resolve the okay they've made it easy okay all right so are we at a point where the witness is done testifying and we open it up well is there anything else that the witness had I I think we need to um have Mr Troutman review the video tape come back present um any questions and finish our traffic testimony then open it to could you also correct this correct page three okay so what we're saying here we're not opening it up right you're gonna you're gonna go away and come back on the traffic and I would like to get a copy of the video for the board file just in case someone from the public wants to come in and watch the video because because it's better okay all right all right I got they open it up people would okay so if that's the case we need a date Jay how long will it take you I can get it done by any date you pick by what I can get it done by any okay meeting date you he can do it the day he gets the video unless it's at 5 o'clock he can do it okay now they've granted an extension till January 31 2025 what are our next available dates um well our first meeting would be wait one two January 18th which would also be our reorg yeah that's all right now is there anything else that's going to be scheduled that night other than the reor I don't have anything well that's perfect chair Jeffrey can you guys make January 18th that's the reorg meeting and again it's the 16th John yeah that's that's a Saturday coming what's the January wait wait what oh I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm looking at 2024 yes it's a 16th I'm sorry 16th can you guys make January 16th it's the reor meeting and and yeah we're good okay so is it EAS let's get an extension now just for safety purposes but now we're getting into snow season although I hope we don't have any can we get an extension to March 31 yes okay so we're going to make an announcement the hearing this matter is going to be once again continued this time to January 16th 2025 that's going to be the board's first meeting in 2025 no need for further notice you're not getting any notices but obviously if you're interested in the application plan on being here thank you wishing everybody very Happy Thanksgiving thank you you too sorry for that thank you welome [Music] okay [Music] so before we adjourn hold on John want to ask John please yeah okay yeah I'm gonna make a suggest that the evening is Young there's a couple more Personnel matters that should be discussed so I'd like to uh make a suggestion the board going to Clos session to discuss Personnel that's an exception to the open public um meetings Act and the other professionals if you want to go home go home all right who's gonna make that motion what I'll make the motion all right Steve and Randy all right people just give me a couple minutes just to close everything up and we'll get it going okay