is it appropriate I leave now yeah you Roger yeah I mean yes Jim yeah you can leave now we're going to call the rooll again I just I I need a minute okay you want me stay or go Jim Jim you can go you if you want to leave leave okay good night everyone thank you Jim thank you Steve thank you Cynthia yeah we have enough people with the alternates yeah and tell Bill thank you he's going to yeah hey Bill yeah if you you don't want to well you can't participate in a hearing over the phone so have a good evening okay he says thank you everyone looking forward to seeing everyone next meeting okay talk to all right I'd like to make a motion to um close the close close the close session and open the Open Session I second that roll call please chairman Mr Roger Aaron yes Vice chairman Kevin Cole yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Bradford Perry yes Mr rul D yes okay thank you everyone for your patience um our closed session is over and I'm now going to call the first application can I just make an announcement on what was said during the close session to make a part of the minutes so the board had the board the township lost its Township engineer Tony haar and he was the board's engineering expert so the board hired two Engineers temporarily Larry plevier and Mark I can't pronounce his last name from the Ferraro firm and Larry was from Mt McDonald and both of their appointments were to October 31 and the board was supposed to make a decision on which engineer they were going to go with and they decided in close session they can't make the decision yet so they're going to someone's going to make a motion to appoint both of both Larry and Mark till the end of the year December 31st and then they'll deal with it at the reorg in January someone want to make that motion so move Randy BL second Kevin Cole call please chairman Mr Roger arens yes Vice chairman Mr Kevin Cole yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Bradford Perry yes Mr oel D yes okay now could you call the role again because we lost some members we had one member that could only par partipate on the phone so I rendered an opinion he could only uh participate in an administrative matter you can't participate in a hearing over a phone you need to be able to see and hear and we have two other members who wanted to participate in the discussion about the engineer but there one medical and one um work schedule does not permit them to participate in the meeting um but we have one two three four there were three that there were three yeah right there were three and we have six uh board members here so we have a more than a quorum so could you call the role again chairman Mr Roger arens here Vice chairman Mr Kevin Co yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Bradford Perry here Mr rozul Dy here let's make it clear that Cynthia schaer requests to be excused Jim Ferraro requests to be excused and Bill cumins requests to be excused and St far and Steve fario thank you requests to be excused and I will make a motion to excuse those four second Bradberry Lisa roll Co yep chairman Mr Roger erens yes Vice chairman Mr Kevin CR yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Bradford Perry yes Mr Rell Dy yes okay we're ready to call our first case of the evening it's boa case 32-2 21 uh the applicant is renie and Kathleen Baran uh the location is block 8 lot 8.01 the address 28 Old Clinton Road the application is for a d variance for keeping and raising of goats on non-farm lot with sea variances and also chickens yes thank you attorne for the applicant I'm going to give you my caveat up okay microphone is right here in front of you the Acoustics in this room are atrocious bouncy okay so is this better yeah that's better and and because we have a stenographer we're gonna ask you to speak rather [Music] slowly I will thank you Nicole vo attorney for applicants renie and Kathleen baragan I just want to apologize off the record I'm getting well over an illness I am not currently actively sick but it's in my voice and I have a cough so please forgive me I brought my teeth um so the barans are here tonight let me just pull up the right notes here for the relief so described by the chairman they reside at block 8 lot 8.01 28 Old Clinton Road they have a residential property there they keep goats they are willing to limit the chickens to five so we can take that variance we're not just slow it down and just uh I'm not hearing you here and Jackie is not hearing you there okay we're hearing your voice over that mic but we're not hearing it not clear try could we try the other mic yeah switch M yeah this one has like a weird is this better yeah that's EAS easier for me as well now you don't have to be that close to that okay how how is that okay test test test Nicole voy attorney for applicants Rennie and Kathleen Baran who reside at block 8 lot 8.01 28 Old Clinton Road they seek relief to have goats on a property that is under three acres which requires a use variance they had also asked for Relief to have chickens however you've recently as I understand it amended your ordinances they were seeking 10 chickens but they will instead comply with the five chicken limit and you're going you're going too fast they they will I'm gonna I'm going to look to you a little bit as well just to get some feedback from you as you type okay um so with respect to the request for a chicken variance they will comply with the five chicken limit and we can remove that request from the application hold on hold on hold on I believe unless I'm wrong the way I read the ordinance Amendment you still need a minimum of three ACR to have chickens am Jeff am I wrong I may it says I'm looking on this is attached to Jeff Bear's memo with today's date and he has reprinted the ordinance Amendment which is ordinance 22-8 and under the limitation ation section which is 29695 e 1B it says on properties less than three acres in area aha never mind so if you're saying if you're under three acres you're allowed to have five chickens okay so you're right you you don't if you're going to comply with the five chickens and not have any roosters then you don't need a variance for that you can withdraw it that is correct that is the intention no roosters and a limit to five chickens right but but they they don't need any relief from the boa tonight if they want to limitate to five chicken to no roosters is that correct that's correct there's no set pack relief for that Coupe it's really for the coupe not for the chickens because the coupe apparently needs um some Varian bul variance bulk variance all right so we'll walk through it and we'll clarify at the very end we will explain the intentions and then we'll clarify at the very end whether there's anything specific to the chicken ordinance that needs to be addressed by the board tonight um I did provide an Affidavit of service for the notice which I believe was considered adequate Jeff do anyone review it yes yes and it was Ade yes okay all right very good thank you so um essentially this relief involves uh a residence with various accessory structures to the residents that some were original and some have been added such as carports and what have you so what we're going to do isow slow slow Mr bargan is going to review get him on the record and he's going to review with you the list of structures just so you know you're not the only one that's in trouble in this in this room see what I do I speak really loud but stay about 18 inches back from the mic I can do that does that work oh okay I usually project but if I did it close to a microphone I'd be screaming at you y okay is this better we're getting there okay Mr beran's going to walk through the structures how they're used the relief that we need so why don't I just get him sworn in and we'll get right to it yeah let me I'm going to swear in all the witnesses that we know are going to testify in this matter so I hear that you have a planner we do we have teric Kenyan licensed professional plan come up to that microphone and I we're gonna Jeff you wrote a report you have anyone else besides we do we have uh Mrs bargan Kathleen bargan is she gonna testify briefly yes she's got some some material to contribute so everyone who's going to testify stand up please raise your right hand and I'm going to swear you in first and ask you to each to identify yourself and spell your last name and give your relationship to the applicant all hand right hands up does everyone swear or affirm that the testimony you're going to give in this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes I do yes yes okay starting over here you can put your hand down please identify yourself and spell your last name my name is renie Baran and my last name is spelled b it's boy a r r r a g a n okay you're one of the property owners yes okay why don't we go to your wife next a a t h l e e n b a r r a g a n and you're also one of the owners yes um I'm Tara Kenyan uh k n y n I'm the applicant professional planner Jeff toship planner okay we're good and so Mr Baran you just confirm that you reside at this property that is correct and it is your personal residence yes and when did you purchase this property in 2006 I believe I moved in late August of 2006 and you reside there with your wife Kathleen and your son who's a minor child at De are yes okay does anybody else live on the property with you no it's one single family home correct there's no other residences correct I'd like to review the improvements on the property we have brought you should have this in your application packets but we have brought some improved color copies of the plan for you we have a packet that I'd like to distribute if I may okay do how many pages are in this packet our planner assembled it and it has one two how many give me a moment please it's six pages okay are they numbered Pages or not correction there's seven pages they are not numbered okay so my intention was to use one of these pages I could I could rip it out just out the one you're going to use will mark it A1 yeah okay then why don't you ask your planning expert after you rip out the one you're going to use to pass that one out to all the board members you can give one up to the board secretary which will be officially marked to day one and then give one to Jeff and one to me are there any people in the audience that are here that are interested in this application no no okay so there's no one in the audience to give a copy of the exhibitor on the screen right now no there is no okay thank [Music] you sorry I'm misunderstanding an exhibit prep here been premark so this is exhibit A3 you want to stay with exhibit A3 sure application exhibit A3 or hearing exhibit A3 so A3 is titled property survey okay can you hand now to each board member and A3 which is titled property survey is dated April 27 2021 and is signed by David Newton New Jersey profession land surveyor the board ready ready yep okay so reviewing this survey um can you confirm you the frontage of your property is on Old Clinton Road correct correct and would you describe one by one each of the structures that are on the prop property starting with your residence and then maybe we'll work around in a somewhat clockwise fashion okay so the the main dwelling obviously is the home itself it was the old caretaker's home for the Francis dayar farm and it was built in the 1800s um that's the two-story dwelling that's a two-story dwelling correct all right um just above that and to the left um is a carport that stores a an RV U for us uh to the right of that a larger structure it's also a cport and it stores another travel trailer that we own um right below that is a shed that we use for storage our home doesn't have a basement or an attic but we use that for storage of your assignments um below that one that's labeled shed is the original shed that was there with the property [Music] um we go back up to the right of the main carport the big carport there's a little storage area that I put a roof to where I keep kayaks will you keep what kayaks kayaks yeah okay um and to the right of that there's two smaller structures one is a little chicken coup um and to the right is a shed that's where the fence for my goats are and that's where I keep them they're hay and feed and they go in there to get out of the weather okay how many feet off the property line is that chicken CPE um I can't tell do you have a larger scale drawing we do and this the large scale drawing from the from the yes okay okay so there's really the is there any difference between exhibit A3 in a large scale drawing no oh okay I thought okay I thought you were showing us something new okay no we were intending to just the survey together yep got it um I thought that we were going to have 10 copies of that size after talking with um get it the board secretary that they were needed um so in any event can we refer to that Cofe I don't need I have one more it says on it 9.2 feet is the closest part to the line yes for the goats 9 a question if there's no difference between A3 and the large no there's not most of the people on the board do have the large than goodness see we I I'm going blind here we had inquired earlier about whether you needed us to have these ready to display or and we got the the message to bring 10 copies and then they came small so I'm very relieved that you have that in front of you um we're all on the same page this is the exhibit that we want to walk you through and can I say something else why don't we just get rid of exhibit A3 and just use the large scale drawing very good so I'm going to cross it off and I'm going to ask our court reporter that A3 is not being entered into evidence just strike it from the rec very good so walking through those uses uh which ones were there when you purchased the home uh when I purchased the home there was the shed that's kind of in the middle so let's use the number of feet you're saying the 715t was there when you bought it correct and again the year you bought the house uh property 2006 and then you also installed the pool yes and there's an additional shed it says 65 square feet that is associated with the pool correct yes that's an 8 by8 shed for let's find out which structures were there when he purchased in 2006 we got the 715 foot shed the twostory dwelling since it's been there since the 1800s right correct there was there was a small there was a small shed where the 2003t carport is now I has since Fallen apart and I roved but there is no shed there's now a 203t carport which you installed when it's um I want to say it was uh 201 19 or 2020 I don't recall exactly am I correct that that's a temporary structure yes it's a one of those metal cardboards just to keep debris and weather out of the no Foundation no Foundation how is it attached to the ground it's got pins the company it's a company from South Carolina they come and install the pin it's attached to the ground it can be detached easily but it's attached to the ground if it has pins in what about the 631 squ foot car port uh that's the same that's a metal carport when was that installed and at the same time around 2019 or 2020 okay temporary yeah yeah it's a metal structure when when you say temporary do you in to get rid of it if you guys tell me I need to get rid of them I have no choice not the question being asked the question is what is your intention right my intention is to use it to store ourin travel trailer yes indefinitely so I'd rather not call it the temporary structure it's pinned into the ground correct yes and you want it to remain there right yes that's right okay so let's just just to keep things clear these two carports are not temporary structures what about the 537 foot shed when was that installed uh that was installed in 2020 and it's use again it's just it's storage stage storage for what uh we store our picnic supplies and overflow from our home that doesn't have a basement for storage it's miscellaneous household items basically okay and the chicken coup when was that installed that was installed probably around uh 200 late 2006 or 2007 okay but that was installed was that there when you purchased or you installed it after you purchased no I built it after I purchased if you purchased in 2006 I'm just going to say for argument sake it was installed in 2007 that's fine that that's that's about the time frame okay what about the pool the deck and a 65t square Shed off the deck uh that was installed in 2011 okay Jeff the things that were installed after 2006 do they have permits for all of them okay all right and the fire pit that was there from the beginning okay and I know that obviously Chicken Coop that's where you intend to keep the chickens right what about the goats where are the goats kept there's a a structure there it says uh shelter 124 sare ft 100 I thought that's the chicken cpop no the chicken CP is that shelter says 35 square feet ah 35 square feet okay and okay so when was the shelter for the goats installed December of 2006 that I remember okay that's after you purchased right okay I get it okay and then regarding the fencing um on this survey we see in the southwest or the lower leftand corner a six- foot fence located within the right of way you're going to be removing that after receiving Mr vella's report correct correct you will be removing that uh in compliance with the report we also see that there is a drainage easement located on the property we have attached to the application a copy of the um easement itself I'd like to mark that easement as in for that deed that contains the easement language and read it into the record when we Mark that is exhibit A1 that's a deed that has the drainage easement language in it that is correct and it is in the application exhibits as well do you want the application exhibit number Mr drill I tell you what why don't you just let's mark that deed with the drainage easement in it is exhibit A1 then we don't have to flip through the sure so with respect to that drainage easement the language and tile can you mark that and hand them out oh it's in the actual okay so we're not marking it so we're just going to use it from the application package yes okay so I'm having trouble hearing you too yeah right just we don't have to mark it as an exhibit everyone has it in the application package just want to confirm you have it Jeff just give the uh what's the date on the D is this exhibit D May 11th 1983 what's the exhibit number in the application package with the exhibit letter it's exhibit exhibit B is sorry it is it's the uh it's we we included exhibit D 2009 we included that copy of it all right hold on so it is exhibit D D like David that's correct okay and October 16 2009 correct okay so where in that de is the page two even language it's the third second the First full paragraph subject two correct that page can you read that into the record slowly subject to a portion of a 25 feet wide drainage easement the center line of which is a drainage ditch running from the southwest corner of said lot through adjoining lot 8.02 in a southwesterly southeasterly direction as per deed book 894 page 160 period the above description is in accordance with a survey prepared by John Cleo Jr Associates Inc dated may1 2004 would you describe what occurs in the area of this drainage e please um as far as I know and what it how it's described to me is basically a ditch to take the run off from water from the road um so on the uh lower left of the survey you'll see that there's a um I forget what they call it a head wall and that's just basically a large pipe and when it rains and the water comes down the road it goes into that ditch and runs off how often is it wet only when it rains okay so otherwise it's dry yes okay and you understand that that portion of the land is restricted by the easement yes understand and would you briefly describe the Topography of your property I'd like you to explain how you explained to me which had to do with the topography and the rear of the property not being suitable for these accessory structures right so if you're looking at it's it's very unique if you're looking at the survey um will we consider the left-and side up until the pool pretty much is basically a big hill which is most neighborhood kids end up there after snowstorm SL and playing um and then uh then it's a valley and then it slopes up again around the area of the main shed in the middle uh towards the road so there's very very small areas of using the word flat Loosely of areas that can sustain a structure where the home is even in that area it's in a slope uh and the back area is the flatter of the of the uh of the area of my property and that's why most of the structures reside you had referred to a hill on the left left side looking at the survey I think I'm sorry on the right side um so where the words lot h101 acor summary is that is one big hill that goes up so is it fair to say that these buildings are located on that portion of the property which is the flattest portion of the property yeah it's the only the only portion of the property that can really have these structures okay and you've described the agricultural history of this briefly what what is the agricultural history of this area in your property so my home is actually the old caretaker house for the Francis dear U farm and everybody knows that's where the school gets the name um they donated the land for the school the land behind me to slow ketering and then divided my lot and my neighbor's lot to be pretty much exact same size and they gifted to the home the caretaker and the caretaker's daughter um her name is Robin and people know Robin Hill and that's basically my Packard where this little girl when she was living there used to Hill uh sled down the hill would you say that this being the original Farmstead um you've you've told me there's some evidence of the original Farmstead as well such as Legacy fencing is that correct there's um The Stockade Fence on the on the lower left of the survey that was actually old fence post from um from I guess the farm when it was a farm um the gate that's under the middle uh bottom part of the survey uh that's an old cattle fence that was there alongside with some bar wire um and my neighbor which is just down south of me has Old Stone troughs for the cattle and it used to be a farm that um I guess for the water is it your opinion this property still has an agricultural aesthetic well you can't ask him his opinion he's a lay sorry witness I I'll I'll you can ask your planner that when you sure we'll do um and so you keep goats on this property correct correct how long have you kept goats at the property um since the end of 2006 Sur after I moved I them in what kind of goats are they they're pigmy goats and would you describe how it is when keeping goats uh how many goats do you typically keep when you P pygmy goats and why um they're they're a hurting animal so they don't do well alone because they feel pairing you said hurting hurt they're hurt hurting animal um so they don't do well alone because they feel that they're going to be prey and they stress and they don't do well so they need to have a small group of friends um and um they are they're small they're adorable I don't know what else to say um very playful and quiet how much does the typical goat wear a piggy goat weigh um I don't think I've ever an adult an adult one 20 30 pound contractor so I'm trying to think about the weight of a concrete bag probably about 80 pounds I'm guessing they're that heavy about 8 60 80 pounds bag of concrete pretty much B when they're fully grown so clearly you're not selling goat meat by the pound no there's no commercial interest ever or will they be or me this are our pets and our you we don't milk them or produce anything or eat them or consume them um they're just our pets and part of the home Mr Vella issued a report that we received this afternoon and he had some specific questions in it and his comments beginning on page two and I'd like you to give the testimony he's requested to the extent it was intended for you so turning to those questions his comment one um he wanted you to provide some more testimony with respect to how it is you will limit the number of goats to six so you've described having a males and females and there are babies at times would you please describe how it is that you will limit this to six goats up to six goats so um you know this is the quintessential circle of life right they have a limited lifespan of about 8 to 10 years depending on uh what they are so in the years that I've had them um there is a male and they are females and they have babies and so one of my son's job is to take care of them and feed them every day and more of them and um when they when they do have babies if there's more the limitation is basically how much I'm willing to spend on keeping these pets uh and in the winter they're eating machines because that's what keeps their metabolism and keeps them warm I heard that one in the winter they're eating machines that's what keeps their metabolisms warm yeah um interesting so um I have a grandson who's an eating machine oh yeah um so um when they if they have more than that it's just not feasible for me to keep anymore nor do I have the space to keep more of them right but his question is I'm going so so um what I usually do is uh I know a lot of people that have horses and they're great companions for horses um and there's people that I know in the area that have goats and they've piing some goats or I find them homes essentially and you have some pictures in the application this is application attachment or exhibit e there's some pictures of the goats can we walk through those do you want to Mark each picture separately if they're in the application you're not marking them we're not marking anything already part of the file very good let's walk through those exhibits then so this would be if you would kindly turn to exhibit e to the application e as an elephant right so my let's give the board a chance please yes he's requesting six requesting six correct so so I keep I keep a male and three females so that's four but they will have babies so at any time they could be up to six and sometimes they have sing Les and sometimes they have twins um they're not prolific breeders like rabbits but they do have babies okay so if you guys are in the pictures uh these are actually my neighbor's kids and they're there looking at the goats and feeding them and you can see some of the actually this is a winter picture there's some snow there so this is the first picture in the packet with a white shed depicted and there's a a kid with a sweatshirt that says stanfields right so those are my neighbors um kids that also go to the school with the photograph um that shows the uh the goats inside the fence correct the building that has the open door that is the goat shed correct so that's the that's the building called uh shelter 124 square feet okay and the building to its left is the chicken group that's the chicken group correct thank you we turn to the next picture please um as my son with one of the babies they're the most alien adorable creatures you ever see when they're babies and how old it when this photo is taken is this he that that goat is probably a week old and by the way you took these pictures yeah when were the pictures taken um through each one just so we when were they taken um started the first picture so this picture the first picture I'm going to say is probably 200 19 2020 je just mark down on each picture um 2019 go to the next picture I'm I'm going to guess that this one's probably a little bit right hold up for one second so the first picture shows couple kids in front of some looking through a fence with some goats and the background are the two structures that the chairman asked you about correct that was taken you think in 2019 I'm thinking about yeah turn the page please this was actually my uh Like Son holding the baby goat the next picture next yeah correct okay what year was that take um probably around the same time I about 2019 right next one is a little baby that's uh one of my son's cousins with the uh that's the mail goat um and he's just picture taken when Miss say 2020 steel 2020 2020 next picture um next one's a black and white a bottle this is really hard this is probably when my son was six years old so that's about six years ago um or maybe a little bit younger and we're battle feeding one of the babies that okay so do the math for us so we don't have to do it give us 2022 minus 6 is what 2016 16 sure next one looks like your son with a goat and his cousin no that's actually two pictures side by side one is my son probably when he was four years old old so that is doing lot of math today uh so that was probably 2 sure and the next one is uh came in the same the picture on the left was taken in 2014 what the picture on the right taken the picture on the right was taken in uh I'm going say maybe 2019 2020 okay the next one is looks like your son in a box with a baby goat yes that's a baby goat that the mother kind of abandoned so we brought him in the house to bottle feed my son was probably four he was three years old oh so he was three so so better your wife probably knows these details a little better yes I I agree so that's uh I feel bad for you I'd be worse than you that's nine years ago yeah so n 2022 minus 99 is 2013 approximately approximately um next again your son this other picture what say what two years old so 10 years ago 20 12 20 about 2012 um next picture it's someone a little kid in the background son two M goats in the foreground he was probably a couple years old same 20 2012 and the pictures you have so many pictures of your son we have we have just two more pictures to go oh we do this one thank you this next picture is a this was this past winter so two21 2021 okay and then the final picture and the final picture say4 2012 or thereabouts the only reason we had to go through that exercise if you want these pictures admitted into evidence you either had to take them yourself or someone would have to testify that it accurately represented the condition on such and such a date and now we have all the dates and again you took all those pictures correct yeah okay and the the purpose of submitting these pictures is because these goats are therapeutic for your son correct that's correct and Kathleen will be discussing that more briefly you can ask whatever questions you have about that we're just going to briefly introduce therapeutic purpose um so with respect to the planner's comment circling back around to that um we have addressed the question of you're limiting it to six and the board will ask additional questions about that if they have them moving on through these comments comment three we've addressed that by restricting it had to do with the number of chickens we've agreed to limit it to sure sure yeah so he asks are any of the pigy golds sold are you giving them away or are you selling them we're giving them away I do have a curiosity question also relevant or I'm sorry how do they smell sorry for that uh the smell there's no no smell I think my dog probably smells more than okay yeah because that's relevant oh yeah yeah that's one of the considerations when I was looking into what animals will be you know pigs and horses and cows are big smelly creatures and okay thank and just for the record it's a good question because the limitation provision in the ordinance again section 29698 e1a says that first of all you need you need the three acres that's why they're here presumptively that's why they're here for the D1 use variants for the goats because they don't have three acres but it says the keeping of the keeping a raising of livestock and a goat in my opinion is livestock and we'll hear um and it says poultry but that's no longer applicable because of the new chicken section shall be Li limited to Lots on at least three acres we've already dealt with that the planner is going to address that shall be limited to one head of livestock so they want more they want six so that's part of the D1 is they don't have three acres and they want more than one goat and then it says the keeping AR raising of I'm going to just do do the things that fur bearing animals so your next question was going to be does a goat have fur or Animals by which of the nature of their diet or living habits causes or results and objectionable odors so you asked if they smell he said no so the board it's up to the board you can accept that as saying well there's no objectionable odors there so this board member's follow-up question is do the goats have fur and what why would the ordinance have a problem with the animal having fur so so I think that probably refers to a sheep that is shorn for or alpaka or a Lama for hair and product with hair but there's not such thing with with goats so you're saying the goats have fur but they don't have to be they have hair but they don't have to be groomed or she the hair just gets long it it it it does I mean without I don't know how much you got I want to learn about coats but it it gets long and they lose it in the in in the spring and they get fer in the winter sure okay they shed like a dog you're saying or not kind of yes like that they scratch against the post in the trees just so you know I don't think anyone in this room other than you maybe your attorney now certainly your wife and even your son probably you guys are the ones that know about goats we don't know anything right so feel free to ask so I move on to the next comment which has the next comment pertains to the chickens so as we described we're just going to tell you what his plans are um you've described the area of the chicken coup as the 35 squ foot shelter correct correct you currently do not have chickens correct correct you would like to get five chickens correct and this is in a shelter that is located 15.65% Roost uh there was a rooster because I there's no way to really sex them when there's uh chicks and but they got shortly rehomed yeah but you're not going to you I'm not going to keep going to have roosters no no no I I like my sleep in the morning okay and moving on to the next comment you don't need intend to keep a rooster then we have a question about the cardboards comment number five Mr Vella I'm unclear of specifically what your question is there if it is going to the point that Mr drill raised well put it this way in my opinion he was under the impression that this was temporary but this is permanent so the only reason I mentioned that okay so to be clear um the setbacks are indicated we'll walk through the the each itemized variance for the setbacks but there's also bulk standard for the total square footage of accessory structures on the lot there is a bulk variance requested for relief from that limit and we have included the car ports in the calculation so the characterization of them as temporary did not cause us to not include them in the bulk variance request and still and then ultimately the board's going to want to know presumably from somebody I don't know if your planner or your client why can't especially if the two carports could easily be moved because there's no Foundation why can't they be moved to a compliant location why do you need to have the setback variances for all these accessory structures so can you address that he was talking about the topography and he said that there's no other place on this 1.65 3 acre lot that you could put those structures that would work other than there without having to actually uh dig and prepare a proper Foundation to level uh ground um there really isn't um any other spots except for those um and your testimony is you didn't have to do any grading to put those there those was put on top of natural ground and put Stone and that leveled the few inches that needed to be leveled and that's where they were set how many inches did you have to level um I don't remember exactly I think uh on the one to the upper left perhaps uh three or four inches over the span of the 12 ft um on the other one towards the back probably around the same handful of inches of stone because that's where they want it set I understand but company what you're saying is you couldn't put them anywhere else because you'd have to do some more grading but you actually did grading to put the ones in where they're in right well grading I I don't know maybe it's a a matter of semantics but gra to me involves a an excavator machine or a tractor to actually level land I didn't level land except added Stone to set a shed so you're saying there's no other location that's compliant where you could do the same thing by bringing Stone in and have you know one an inch of stone on one side up to six inches on the other that you would actually have to bring in an Excavating machine to put these anywhere other than that's correct that's correct yeah what this also doesn't show is also the amount of trees in some of the areas that would have to be leveled and removed um and then just so the distance to the house to to those structures and the accessibility to the driveway because ultimately what their housing is um you know recreational vehicles so miss Kenyan has provided an aerial image we will review that when she is testifying might help you with this some um further um also would you just confirm for me that the driveway curb cut here this is existing and you have configured these car ports with a consideration as well of the circulation correct I did not require that you grade and extend your driveway into other areas of the property that's correct and you do not have a second curb cut to the south of your house that could have alternatively been used no I think topography doesn't allow for for anything there all right we've covered number six and walking through the various structures um moving on to number seven the planner is going to so so the answer to number six is there are no pre-existing non-conforming structures all the existing structures conform or some don't conform well the pre-existing shed of 715 Square fet looks like it complies yes okay what about the 1880s two dwelling house does that comply I'd like my planner to address that question okay and Jeff shed was there no yeah he said well he said the shed was there when he moved in that doesn't mean it's a lawfully created pre-existing nonconforming use but that the 715 foot shed what does it not comply with doesn't Jeff there's an 800 correct the the other new structures are bringing the accessory structures out of compliance but am I correct that the 715 foot shed that was there in 2006 if it didn't have the new structures the other accessory structures it would be in compliance correct okay now take a look at the two-story dwelling is that in compliance or does that violate any setbacks now you have any doubt in your mind that that house was not there in the 1880s okay so that house would appear in your opinion would be a lawfully created pre-existing nonconforming used to remain in his location correct okay so the application then in my opinion should only address these new structures because the house is grandfathered and the shed that he put up in 2006 other than the fact did he get a permit for it so let to get an after Thea permit for the 715t shed but that shed is in compliance and that that 715 foot shed did not go up in 2006 that was pre-existing right no that was there that was there and the limit the ordinance limit is 800 sare F feet total but he looked in the file there's no permit for it we're not saying you didn't get oh for the for the existing for yeah yeah pile permit sure yeah so for the house you don't need it obviously Bes that's grandfather okay but the shed there's no unless you have evidence showing that the 2006 shed is grandfathered your evidence is that before you added the other structures the 2006 shed was fully compliant with the zoning ordinance the only thing that was wrong with it was it didn't have permits which you were going to agree to get right after the fact yes that's why I'm saying that my opinion the f Fus of the application unless he's willing to get rid of that shed the focus of the application should be on all the other things that he installed after he moved in but wasn't the shed there in 2006 when you purchased the property yes it was yes it was the shed was there in 2006 it's not grandfather to be grandfather it would have to be there prior to the time that you needed a permit right it wasn't you needed permits there's a there's an inscription on the concrete 1972 that means anything from Vogal that family that on that property that means the concrete pad was Bor in 1972 the shed looked like it's a 1972 shed oh yeah it looks like it 1800s so again I don't want to make this any more complicated but it you have the right to try to prove that that shed is grandfathered but then you're gonna have to go I can I can listen to me listen to me there's a box in their office that has all the ordinances going back to 1956 or 1954 you're going to have to go through all those ordinances and find what was the ordinance in 1972 did the shed need a permit trust me a lot easier if you just apply for an after the fact permit for that shed okay especially since you know that it's in a compliant location and again if you ignored the other sheds and other structures you've added Jeff confirmed that does not exceed the 800 foot limitation for an accessory structure at 715 Square F feet correct corre Okay so we've now like paired the case down a little bit more to all the structures You' put up since you purchased the house okay and the six goats and not the five chickens but the chicken Coupe that is correct correct correct right thank you so we've addressed five going back to the Vella report we've addressed five six we have addressed we're also going to allow the planner to provide some answers on that she will clarify number seven to indicate that her report meant to reflect 2346 square feet okay let's just make that you're saying that the the 3,19 Ft was a typo it should have been 2346 yes okay she'll say that but we can just correct thing right now regarding a that fence in the right of way Mr baran's indicated he will remove it he's also indicated he believes it contains some historic qualities he's indicated he will remove it just noting for the board that he's also testified that it has some historic um significance having been original in his opinion to the homestead but he is agreeing to remove it if that continues to be the board's preference to follow their planner's recommendation that that be removed um in terms of number nine we're assuming zoning permits would issue upon approval of this application for all of these structures now let's talk about 10 10 so our planner is going to testify on this some more but we did take a look you know she did identify in the report that was submitted with this application looking at the go web which as you know has unverified uh lines for items such as wetlands and streams that mapping shows in this southwest corner Wetland it's in the area of this drainage ditch which is already the subject of an easement that mapping does not show a stream here the mapping doesn't show a stream but there's an actual stream there yes there's a a drainage ditch but the Gob does not show a stream okay the ordinance language does it talk about a stream or does it talk about something that flows with water us does this stream have water does this drainage ditch have water for six months out of the air no right it it has it during the if it rains yeah but you said it only has it when it rains it's when's the last time it rained the night before night before so how many days after the rain does it keep the water in it Mr Vella said it has water in it now but to clarify you were there yesterday correct I I I don't know I don't check it on a daily basis but I know that it's it's a runoff from it's a ditch runoff of the road I ask a question if there's a drinage easement over that area and he's asking for a conservation easement over the same area what's the problem uh a conservation easement that could match the lines of this drainage easement would be easy because we would actually have something demarked on a plan that I could attach a conservation easement to getting into flagging and delineating wetlands at this point in this application um especially because we only see that the dra the ordinances references to applying conservation easement are all correlated and tied to doing site plan that's what we're looking at right now what's the ordinance section or subdivision what's the ordinance section that talks about the conservation even it's referenced to Mr vella's report and our planner again we got this report this afternoon she has prepared and pulled all of the code and has prepared to address this and walk through someone just give me the ordinance section Mr Vella I didn't see included it I asked Mr Vella I gave my ordinance book and I asked him to find the ordinance for me because I believe that she's right that it's a site plan ordinance provision but I just want to confirm that because if it is a site plan ordinance provision then it wouldn't apply in this case where they're not seeking SE approval but I don't want to opine on that until I see the ordinance and I can confirm it do you have a you know the section yes it it is our request that the board not follow recommendation 10 because we believe it only applies in a site plan or subdivision we get that we get that and there's already I want the ordinance section just so I can read it that's all Jeff ordinance section 296 29675 e and then under two with and conservation eement so P says the following eement as appropriate shall be granted to the township as a condition of final site plan approval so Jeff unless you find something else since there's no site plan approval here um they would not have to give a drainage or a conservation easement under this section unless there's some other section in the ordinance there isn't okay well we can we can request it okay if the board requests it what does the applicant say the applicant urges the boards not request it they say no they have already expended a great sum for what is a hobby for for the therapy of their son and there's already a drainage ditch easement in place that easement combined with the topography um indicates that this area is not going to be developed there was ever going to be another Improvement on the property they would have to come back to this board because they are already over the accessory uh structure coverage that is allowed and so the board would then have the opportunity to review this if it became necessary and it would also give an applicant an opportunity to actually ascertain the costs of the application before going into it and decide whether that additional new Improvement in the future will be worth Wetlands engineering you know we're talking about flagging with an environmental consultant and then a survey where we already have a drain a eement that's described as a ditch for draining the land upward from the road according to both the deed that we read into the record and the testimony of Mr Baran board you can consider that later but that's that's their position here Jeff has made a request my opinion it can't require it if you want to request it they're basically nicely saying no they're asking you they not even to request it so you guys can talk about that I've stated that correctly right you have thank you so at this time unless you have more questions for Mr Baran we wanted to call Kathleen Baran to describe the therapeutic purpose and then the planner to address the the detail each of these um variances and the standards for granting them uh before we do that I see we're at 8:15 normally we take a break at 8:30 but I think what we'll do is before the planner comes and speaks we'll give our stenographer a 10-minute break why don't we come back at 8:2 okay okay very good thank you I have a few questions Roger should we do that before or after the break why don't you do it right now yeah the normal breaks at 8:30 before you go okay Mr Baran yes sir um C can you explain to me again when did you first get goats um it was very shortly after I moved so um he said December of 2006 that's what he said before yeah the end of 2006 I remember it was around holiday time it was a nice break in the weather my brother and I set the fence and surely I don't know exactly but surely thereafter I'm going to say Christmas time and what was what was the intent and purpose of having goats at that time in the 2007 through 2015 2016 what what was the purpose sure um so listen I didn't know why they called New Jersey the Garden State until I moved to hun County and you know given the historic the history not history the history of the property and being farmed uh being related to the school and everything there you know he felt very connected to that and um there were remnants of old fence and bar wire and cattle fences and troughs made out of stone um and I felt appropriate to have some sort of animal out there and for all the research that I did those were probably the least um offensive so so you would say it was it was a hobby it's a hobby correct yeah thank um just a couple more quick questions um how many kids can a female goat have I know you said that one or sometimes two what is the maximum they that they would have I as far as I have experience and from what I research uh two is are maximum and it depends on weather and who else knows nature and how frequently do they have um about once a year I have one of the females birth babies so you having three babies a year no it could be one or two a year but you could have with three females you and they let's say they all had twins you could have technically 12 goats at one time in a year they could but it hasn't happened in all the time that I've been there on having them I mean I guess nature can surprise me but um you know that's why I keep just the three females uh and they're also in different stages of um of life you know some of them I've had for over a decade so they're not making any any babies um so usually it's about one female a year that has okay I just have two more questions sir H how many pyg me goats do you have to have together for them to be comfortable is is what is the minimum what I've been told and what I've heard is a minimum of two just so they have a company um a companion that's a lot of people with horses will keep a goat because then a horse becomes the goat's companion um and I keep four four uh males and females and I'm asking for six in case if there's babies and my last question is what please help me understand why you couldn't have let's say four goats or three goats all of the same sex and not be having these baby goats um I could um and I did for a good part of the beginning of the time until my son was born and then I decided to have the male and he's experience you know the goods and the bad things about the circle of life with them and seen them pregnant and seen them being delivered and we've rescued them and brought them in a house and hand fed them and it's his job basically to keep to care take care for them and feed them and and that's why they they have a they bring and and what happens if you can't find a home for baby goats I take it over the years maybe you've used up all the friends that want to go I I never seem to have trouble finding their homes um I have a my goddaughter is a big big into equestrian competition so I have almost like an endless supply of people with farms and horses and um you know the male is also getting up in age I don't plan to replace them um so you know things have dwindled down where we used to have babies every year to now it's every couple of years for okay that those are my questions thank you I have a question yeah microphone Randy microphone is your son with a 4 at all no not no there's just so many hours in the day for all the activities it's in hockey and what in Boy Scouts and boxing and school activities there just not enough time but it's I would have I would have loved to for him to participate in that I just don't have the time to involve him in that b 4es for kids no no I but but I said I don't have the time to involve him in that but we've gone to the 4 AG Fair many times and he sees all the different kinds of goats and the kids competing and everything on on the survey um it shows that the 4-foot fence surrounds the chicken Coupe and the Goat um uh pen um it says uh post and wire fence for feet then if I look over by the house um up on the um top of the of the survey um your uh property line which I guess is the north property line it says up there near the smaller carport uh that's the 6ot fence if I follow that around it seems to go over near um your um entryway into the driveway and then over toward the shed and why the 6 foot fence there and not where the goats are right so um and is that six foot fence was that there when you bought the property so when I bought the property there was this Stockade privacy fence which is down south of of the house itself which is on the northeast corner of the property so the top northeast corner okay okay so um wait top right is in Northeast I'm sorry Northwest I'm sorry Northwest I'm sorry correct sorry um yeah so the top left of the and that's a short Stockade Fence as I see it so that's St that's six feet that was existing right and but it's only a short fence looks like it runs uh What uh about he's not saying he's saying it's short it's short and length yeah there's about um four panels at 8 feet of panel right looks like 15 feet um so probably more than that that's historic correct so so that that was existing right and then there's also some down and so was a section going out on the North uh boundary that probably goes um I'm going to say about 30 ft roughly okay um and then I added for privacy that the the problem is that on the road this is such a um such a gully there that from the road at night I get headlights on and on and Old Clinton Road for as much as a country road it is it's an incredibly busy road uh so I continue that fence there just to provide okay some privacy for just for clarification purposes the stockage fence which is in the southwest corner of the property Southwest yes bottom left yes that's in the right of way yes and I will remove that right so it doesn't matter if that thing's an historic fence or whatever it's in it's in unless they get permission from the township of ridan to leave it there oh no no yeah that that will be removed okay and so what about this six foot Stockade Fence that's in the upper leftand corner the North West Corner that again in the front so so that Stockade Fence the one that parallels the road yeah what's the purpose of it just Aesthetics it's privacy the road is literally right there um and that that existed and I kept it and so was maybe about 30t of stockade trees there are some trees around there yeah so then the intent would be to keep the um six foot Stockade Fence it's on the north northern part of the property yes okay that's that's what I was driving at yeah yeah okay okay and then the other two smaller sections um to the West would be removed the the small section on the bottom left correct okay and what about the top left um left that one very small section that's over near um uh the road uh yes that section on the on the upper uh left of the to the car left of the car left of the carard yes that's on the road I'd like to keep that for privacy keep that yeah my neighbor's driveway is directly opposite to that so I see him you know it's just direct shot to the back thank you for clarifying that that's what I was trying to find out yes and it needs to be said I've been waiting for the planner and we've kind of been circling around this but to be 100% clear the application and the notice that was sent um is requesting that you have the animal shelter 9.2 feet from the sideline whereas the setback is 100 feet for the um side and rear setbacks and you want that relief correct to have 9.2 by the way which shelter are you talking about the goat shelter the one that is 9.2 is the goat shelter right and the requirement under the ordinance is what 100 feet because it houses animals which puts it right in the middle of the lot but but that's would be a SE variance that is a SE variance what I was going to my final question was going to be the goat I mean not stri that the chicken cop the 35 foot shelter so when they adopted this ordinance that allows up to five chickens on Lots less than three acres it gives a whole list in Roman numerals one through 11 of things that you have to do if you're going to have the five chickens and one of them for example so let me it's the amendment to section 296 98 e which is a limitation Section 1 B which so this is a limitation section that says you can't have animals other than says on properties less than three acres you can keep or raise chickens for purely personal educational or recreational purposes involving no nuisance or manister to the public health subject to the following so you can't have more than five if you wanted more than five you'd have to get a D1 variance they say we're not going to have more than five they have to be in in an enclosure which is covered ventilated and Predator rodent resistant so can you just testify is your enclosure covered ventilated and Predator rodent and resisted yes set enclosure shall provide a minimum of Four Square fet per chicken with a fence to run or equal or space all fencing shall be 6 ft in height does it comply with that yes the fenc Run shall be well drained so there's no accumulation of runoff comply with that yes the walls and floors of the enclosure shall be kept in a clean and sanitary condition with all droppings collected at least weekly yes one of my son's jobs yes animal Solid Waste shall be covered in a shall be kept in a covered container until composted or transported up the premises okay yes here's the one Roman five any structure such such as a fenced run pin or Coupe shall not be closer than 30 feet to any property line and shall not be more than 100 square feet in size so you're under 100 square feet but you are 1565 ft I don't think this is a c variance I think this is a DV variance so I just going to bring to this to your attorney's attention because during the break you might want to talk to your planner about that because if you have a a small little 35q foot chicken Coupe it seems to me you don't want to ask these guys for a D1 variance on an ordinance that was just adopted a couple months ago you might want to at least move the chicken CP to a location that is that's 30 feet from that property line that's what you want that's what you should uh I understand and I'm going to discuss that with my client during the break yeah I understand completely that might be possible okay we'll discuss it and you comply well I'm going to ask you do you comply with the rest of these things terms of six you do not exceed 100 square feet correct yes and number seven so what I see here is that this ordinance has changed the setback requirement to a lesser one of 30 ft which obviates our need for the bulk variance requested in the application but would create the D variant so we will be discussing that right and I'll be making the recommendation that a D1 variant not be required okay Break Time Break Time thank you uh we'll be back at 20 minutes of that's a hint we need Jeff Jeff too confusion uh he's oh he's getting something okay okay be that me he is like to call the meeting back into order we would like to next have Kathleen bargan provide some brief testimony um Mrs bargan would you please uh just remind the board you reside at this property yes and you just heard your husband testify and you agree with everything that he said you also agree is true and accurate yes okay very good um would slide the microphone just a little closer that's good thank you would you please tell us what your training and profession is I an educator I work here in ridan Township um this is my 25th year of being an educator I have a degree in Psychology um and I have multiple certifications for the subgroups Within our population of students what does that mean subgroups within the population subgroups are children are broken down into um whether or not they need um ESL Services Support Services um uh Resource Services meaning special education which could come in the form of um a IEP or a 504 so generally you would say that you're very familiar with the developmental needs of children and yes their development okay and you've chosen to share with the board some personal information with understanding this is public record and there's a public record Being created and there will be minutes um you've chosen to share some personal information with respect to your son's relationship with these goats yes would you please describe that to the board please sure so my son Jake is very attached to the goats when he was born we learned that he was born with with neurofibromatosis type one neurofibromatosis type one and F1 for future reference easier to type um that causes uh tumors to grow in the brain on the spinal cord and at the end of all nerve endings that is lifelong that currently does not affect Jak so we're very lucky in that however no one knows what the future holds it also presents with behavioral difficulties emotional disregulation and ADHD behaviors okay we all some of us know what that means what's um attention deficit disorder there is only attention deficit disorder currently recognized in the DSM however they are allm is the diagnostic statistics manual the medical I guess Bible um ADHD can be hyperactivity V vent or prominent and it can also be um just distracted thoughts diligent Jake tends to have both you know he's Equitable in both the hyperactivity and the um lack of executive functioning which is working memory um I have it all written down working memory um time management self-monitoring and regulation of emotions so in my research of NF1 one of the things that I discovered was that um animals that are um prey animals meaning goats they're not Predators they're very calm they're hurted they're packed and presence of children who suffer from uh executive function disorders do better in their presence because it's a safe place for them to feel calm because the uh energies from the animals will calm the individual distracting them from thoughts of depression um and the stresses that they have in their life in school Jake does have a 504 his teachers are legally required to provide him with certain accommodations so that he is able to uh get all of the information that any average sixth grader would or whatever grade he's in would receive um the goats specifically uh help him with time management because he has particular jobs when he comes home he knows he has to complete homework he needs to feed those goats he needs to water those goats and he needs to check on those goats um if the fact that they are goats is it helps with self-monitoring because he knows that there is a natural consequence coming to the goats that falls upon him if he does not execute his duties um the positive interactions so communication impaired is something that also happens with with NF1 so the ability to approach and speak to other people he was in speech for four years um he is no longer in speech but his speech production and word recall because his working memory is very weak is hard for him when people come over what he does is he reaches out to them and shows them the goats he's very excited about the goats is the one place in his life that he excels they've all survived because his job is to care for them it keeps them off of screens which is not you know 100% because we do live in 2020 but his friends know that from a particular hour of the day he's unavailable his friends are eager to come over and he shares with them the goats they want to feed the goats he gives them tips um when our younger cousins come over again that is his responsibility and it's giving him a positive interaction with other human beings many of the students that I have had in the past you know have difficulty with that an opportunity for them you know like that would be beneficial Jake is 11 years old he's moving into his pre-teen and teenage years it is just a fact of life that during those years um depression lots of Life Changes you know life changes dramatically between the ages of 12 and 18 if these were removed from his life at this current time as he moves into his pre ENT and Adolescent years it would be devastating for our family um you also mentioned that you're on the board of chop yes so Jake uh visits chop the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia his uh NF Specialists asked me to join the board um to make decisions about how um they go forward with um marketing and different trials because Jake is kind of off the charts of any child with NF1 so we have been I've been part of that board participating in different community events and things he was also asked to uh be present in uh an MR study of the brain and in a uh social study because the way that he interacts and talks with other human beings is very rare in children with his condition and you attribute some of that to the therapeutic benefit you attribute some of that to the therapeutic benefit of your hobby goat keeping I do because that is it gives him OPP organic opportunity to talk to others and it gives him um an area in which he can Excel so he you know she shares a lot of information and um you know he can talk so I do what year was he born 2011 so I think Mr Perry raised a very interesting question with regarding the goats being there since 2006 which point they didn't have a therapeutic purpose um when is it that you came to know that the goats were an issue with the township 2019 I think when it when became issue that the goats were an issue I approximately 2019 yes approxim well after Jake was born is the point okay so is it fair to say that you initially started out with goats and then your son was born and you discovered the therapeutic purpose yes they weren't you know obviously therapeutic before his birth um and at his birth we you know weren't aware of it but uh Jake was diagnosed at one month so he was according to the doctors one of the youngest to be diagnosed with this uh condition and at that point I started reading profusely because it came my job to make sure that he can be successful in life regardless right because we've all got things that's his thing so when I came upon the articles about how animals could help I researched further and further to see if there were particular kinds of animals a number of animals whatever it said um then it went to you know goats specifically um because it it had been it was within the section that spoke about like miniature horses and things like that that people do use for service animals and it spoke about the goats in terms of calming anxieties reducing stress and distracting the mindset from depressed mindset into a more positive mindset and your husband testified that it was then that you started keeping a male goat yes why was that um to just have babies you know whenever we could um and then at that time um as Jake got older he was able to go out to help again feel successful um you know in a you know seemingly life-changing event because there aren't many young children at least that we come in contact with who have that experience and it has grown you know he says that science is his favorite subject he is very concerned with the environment and animals and um it seems to be a direction that he would like to take his life that's that's it do you have any questions for Mrs fargan are you certified special ed teacher I am not not certified for special ed but I have a psychology a child psychology degree okay thank you you're welcome great thank you and next we'd like to have Tara Kenyon the professional [Music] planner um M Kenyon you're already sworn in would you please provide your um cred as a professional planner so you can be accepted as an expert by the board sure um I have a bachelor's degree in environmental planning and design from Ruckers University I from Ruckers Ruckers University um I'm a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey accredited by the American Institute of certified planners um I currently have been certified and expert before uh the city of newark's planning board um Somerset County planning board Franklin Township planning and zoning boards um many zoning boards and planning boards and uh I have specialized in Farmland preservation open space preservation Land Development review for the entirety of my career which has been over 15 years and one thing I think is interesting about your career you recently went out on your own after actually working in government I did yes I worked for Somerset County Planning division from 2006 until 2018 and then I started my firm in 2018 and I am on my own still John will accept this witness as an expert thank you so miss Kenyan you've been to this property correct yes would you please describe the attributes to the property that you think are relevant to your planning testimony sure um so the property as you know is located at 28 Old Clinton Road it's 1.78 ERS um it's in the R3 Zone which is rural residential um it has an interesting topography like Mr baragan had said before so when you are if you look at the survey when you are coming into the property from Old Clinton Road so you'll be moving East so starting from the entrance moving East it's basically relatively flat still not completely flat and then as you get towards uh a little bit past the pool you kind of get into this little Valley dip area and then it has a a pretty relatively dramatic incline I would say topographically so it's um it can be interesting and a little difficult to you know move things around because of that topography um it is uh as I said it's in the R3 Zone it's surrounded by other Rural and residential sites um as of right now they are keeping the goats on the property there's also accessory uses that are used for personal storage and for storage for the goats uh on the property the purpose of the R3 zone is to preserve open agricultural character of this section of town and then as you read further down it's also to provide areas for low density single family residential development and related use so in my opinion from reviewing the application and seeing the on-site uses the intent and purpose of the zone is Satisfied by Mr baran's property because it is a low intensity use there is the single family dwelling and it is agricultural in nature the principal uses on the property allow for single family detached dwellings and any form of Agriculture and horiculture so although the goats are basically pets to uh Mr baragan and his family there is the agricultural nature of it being that they are animals being raised on the property um what else can I say about it just a good question yes and you're saying the intent and purpose of the zone is Satisfied by the uses you're not saying that that the intent and purpose of the zone is Satisfied by the placement of the accessory structures in the setback you're going to be testifying separately yes setback yes yeah I'm just talking right now about the use yep yep um I figured we would talk about the B variances after the use does that make sense or okay um what else here so there so let me just go through this so as I mentioned um the permitted uses are for the keeping of livestock on a 3 acre lot and the bargan property is 1.78 Acres the goats are therapy animals deemed a necessity by the applicants uh Medical Professional in the past yeah on that one I've spoke talking to the applicant's attorney and they that professional is not available to be cross-examined so my advice to the board is you have to ignore the letter in the file from the doctor from Ohio and just base your base your a opinion on Mrs baran's testimony John can it be taken as hearsay like they I mean basically the rules of Court don't apply um corre provided as an expert The Rules of Evidence don't apply so it's not a hearsay problem it's that there's CA two cases that say the board should not consider something that's not where the author is not available for cross-examination okay that's the basis for my advice okay we we didn't want to elevate it to that level so we'll just refer to Mrs baran's T that's fine that's fine right um in terms of the variance for the use um the positive criteria is that it does advance um section the section of the M the municipal land use law 40 colon 55 d-2 I'm just going to read briefly some sites from it so um it provides sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of Agriculture residential recreational who first of all you got to slow down in a second what g to g yep um so so provides sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of agricultural residential and recreational uses okay you're talking about just just the goat use because the chickens are allowed correct yes I'm only talking about the use variants that we're requesting yeah right and so it's the appropriate space explain if the ordinance says that 3 acres is the minimum why is 1768 Acres sufficient space so it's sufficient space in this property in particular because the goats have been there for quite some time with no incident also if you look at some of uh some research from the Extension Agency in Illinois um I couldn't find it from New Jersey readily online but I'm sure we could Excuse Me Miss Kenyon I don't think this board is necessarily familiar with Extension Agency okay so each um land grant University so in New Jersey it's Ruckers um Illinois has one Oregon has one and those are the two universities that I looked at um sufficient space is defined by that Extension Agency the Extension Agency specializes in Agricultural and natural resources protection so they are a group of scientists and employees that work there specifically studying pasture pasturing for animals or natural resource conservation on farms and new techniques in farming so they are people that study this type of thing both organizations state that on one acre anywhere between um three and eight goats per acre is residentially zone property a farm yes for a residential for having farm you know having like goats on your property but but Ru you couldn't find anything from ruter in New Jersey saying that I couldn't find anything from ruter readily online and the township has made a determination in its ordinance that three acres is the minimum my suggestion instead of going for what I'm going to call the stretch on appropriate space why is this site particularly suited for what they're doing so okay so this site is particularly suited for what they're doing because they are able they have the enclosure on their prop property which enables them to keep the goats uh safely on the property they have not had any incident since they've had the uh goats on the property since 2006 the goats are well cared for um and the property is able to handle this amount of goats and has been for quite some time or do the goats get to roam all over the property not to my knowledge right no y right so um why don't you just quickly go check in right now because you can rely he's been here they want to cross-examine him again they can find out from him the enclosure that the goats are limited to yeah square footage exactly [Music] so if you look at the survey um CH how do I calculate this we see a fence just so you know on this survey there's appears to be a six foot high post and wire fence that starts on the northeastern side but then at some point um it looks like it's around the chicken CP it's 6 feet a rectangle correct and then it Go drops down to 4T where you have the goat shelter correct and then goes to the property line where it's four feet so it's your testimony that the goats are limited to the area inside that fence and rail the post and wire fence and the post and wire fence that's four feet um that has a roughly a flag shape on the did he describe it correctly did I describe the area correctly yes to to the right of the uh you don't have to restate it if you think he said it correctly oh yes yes think you said it correct um no when I had the the fence company reset the fence it was expanded a little bit to be the flag shaped lot the flag shape that it is now have any idea I mean I can tell you how you can do draw a line you can make two rectangles and give a rough estimate of the foot of each rectangle then add them together and you have a rough a rough estimate of the flag shaped fence like get that in the record just 30 ft so that's understand what I just said yes sir 30 60 say 90 by 40 30 by 90 and then uh say 40 40 by 40 I have to pull a calculator do you have the scale with you yeah I just use my roughly my pencil for an inch it's just 30 ft 30 ft 30 1200 roughly 3600 Square F feet with the crude measuring devices that I have here and I assume if the board were inclined to Grant the variance that you would agree to a condition limiting the goat roaming area so to speak to the 30 approximately 3600 ft inside that four foot high fence is that correct right you ready yes okay please continue okay so the property is all Al um unique particularly suited for this use because it is Agricultural and historic in nature um it is a great property for having uh these animals because they do have the ability to have this room to be in but safely uh where it's located and it fits the character of the area but on that one not to be argumentative but there are a lot of lots right in the R3 Zone that that description you just gave right um well there are there are probably a few Lots I would assume that meet the criteria but this property as I mentioned it has so it's it meets the intent of the Zone by its agricultural nature I don't know that many other neighbors have that agricultural characteristic to it I'm not really sure um but this property is you're not really sure you didn't observe it when I didn't observe it when you were in the area right and then this Mr Bergan testified to the historic history of this the cattle gate the historic trouts in the area this being part of the a remnant of the historic um property with the caretakers residence um which is not these are not traits that you find on all the other adjoining properties right in this area correct correct yep and there's also the Topography of this that um the improvements in this flat area are they described as being sort of down at the bottom of the road and the the hill and so there's some buffering that exists naturally on this there is yeah the the property really is from when I was there it really is agricultural in nature I think it is unique to the neighboring properties in that it does have the way it's set up and and where the animals are kept and how they're raised it is agricultural in nature and fits that whole um desired characteristic for the area as the zoning States and there's Legacy fencing on the property this some of this fencing um Mr Baran did you testify that some of the fencing was originally there from the original Homestead correct yes there's remnants of old Cedar okay go go up to the mic because we have question question for you yes there's uh remnants of cattle fences barb wire and old posts and um I don't know the terminology but they look like the colonial Stockade fences that you see say the fields of Gettysburg you know stack logs and in a zigzag and where where where are those um well they they some of them have unfortunately disappeared but it was right where where were they where were they so they were um starting about a third of the property from the left to right um going all the way up to the northeast corner and there's still a lot of remnants on the southern border uh from the southeast to about 2/3 to the to the West you mean Southwest 2/3 to the east from left to right yes correct so that's what we had questions about if you look at the along the southern part of the property there's an indication of a gate right that's an old cattle fence that Still Remains and there's an indication of papers what's that oh I had some uh flat papers to park one of my kids U Hot Wheels so the question is this is not use questions the question is location questions why couldn't all those accessory structures that are right up against the Northerly property line be placed to full comply with all the setbacks in that area you know uh south of the fire pit and north of the pavers along in that area because the testimony that your planner just gave is when you come in from Old Clinton Road it's relatively flat until you get about halfway in the property that's when the slope starts so what's wrong with that flat area it's it's um it's hard to visualize from here without having a topographical map but from from the house to where the structures are north of that is the only relatively flat area from there the property dips um on a slope that goes from north to south um and then it elevates from west to east around the area of the pool so imagine a a funnel with one flat area on the top left got it and you're also at 14 the according to this survey it's at 14% in Fus cover so relocating would not only require grading and be putting these accessory structures in the area of that southernly slope but would also require adding impervious cover to the lot in an area near an existing drainage ditch is that correct Miss Kenyan correct okay keep going okay y um so the the use of keeping the goats um it does not have any substantial detriment to the public good there is no increase in traffic or a change in traffic pattern there's no proposed increase in the scale or intensity there is uh no um detriment in my opinion to the public good by having this use on the property is the applicant testify that there's no odors correct there's no commercial operation y you're saying there's no traffic impact there's no traffic there's visually um is your experience of the site that it is between the fencing and the woodlands and the topography would you consider it relatively to say that again I'm sorry would you consider the uh the proposed use requiring a variance to be somewhat buffered by the natural conditions of this site yes definitely so it's your opinion that there is there are no negative imp PS from proposed use on this site correct um and lastly the use on the site that continued use on the site will not impair the intent and P purpose of the zoning off the zoning ordinance the intent and purpose of the Zone restrictions yes of the R3 the purpose that I read in the beginning um which is that it's for a variety of agriculture in a historic agricultural character that's low intensity so having this use on site does not impair the intent or purpose of that whatsoever and Mr bargan testified in fact that his neighbors enjoy coming over to experience that agricultural character yes so it it arguably May contribute to the aesthetic of the Zone purpose that's interested in this agricultural care yes absolutely you have anything else to add use variants no can you just I'm going to let the board ask followup questions so we don't put them to sleep would you just itemize um the remaining bulk variances and your planning testimony on the bulk variances uh yes so I can go through that so slow go slow okay um so the there's a C1 variance request for the animal enclosure it's where the goats are um it's 9.2 feet from the northern property boundary um and it is supposed to be 100 ft according to zoning so we're requesting uh relief on that um the property as we mentioned earlier is only 200 feet wide so the 100 foot setback would be very basically in feasible um to move it in accordance with the 100 yard setback while having this goat enclosure to properly house the animals um and again the we're going to be referencing the uh so hold one I think that she's absolutely right if the property is 200 feet wide and the setback requirement is 100 feet it's impossible to place anywhere on the property that said they're going to want to know okay why here why does it have to be 9.2 feet why can't it even be pushed back you know 20 feet we already asked why can't it be in the South good answer sloped area close to the ditch why can't it be pulled back any more than the 9.2 ft why there the applicant has testified that it was pre-existing and constructed prior to his awareness of the setback understanding prexisting he said this one was put in by him in 2007 after he moved in right I'm not saying that this is an is an acceptable reason to leave it there I'm just saying that he's seeking approval of the existing conditions out of efficiency because he's not aware of there being an actual negative impact of leaving it in place based upon the history of use does this have a foundation or is it just wood and it's set on blocks right I I think this you're telling me the goat shelter is also set on blocks I know the chicken coops right this come up for a second and how did the shed get there I built it right and the board wanted it moved not you know in that general area but just to at least bring it to the principal building setback you could move it there right here move it all the way here um the principal the principal building setb is this one right 25t it's 25 ft so this is the question now keep in mind that the the requirement was 100 feet it was impossible I was one to know go 20 feet go 10 feet more what will s satisfy the board so this is a first impression discussion for us that we're happy to have right and because if you did you could make an argument that listen it's impossible to be at 100 and we don't want to set we don't want the board to be in a position of having set a precedent now that they gave you 9.2 feet so someone else comes in and asks and now they have to justify why yes to you no to someone else and so you say you know what building principal set back if you could have a house a two-story house 25 F feet off the line what's the problem having a goat shelter 25 ft off the line and by the way if you move it 25 ft off the line it's still in the middle of your flagged fenced goat area so so to answer your question uh no there's no good reason that it's there other than that was the site that I picked when I built it the board the board asked you to to move it to 25 feet to the principal building line you move that it could be possible y that could be possible okay excellent thank you go to the chicken coop okay uh chicken cop all right that's not L my list hang on here okay the chicken coop is to 30t as per the new ordinance and he's already Chicken Coop you're moving it to 30 feet anyway so you don't need to to move it to 30t yep then we have the car ports so there are two car ports one is 203 Square ft that is the on your survey that is the carport that's in the Northwestern Corner 203t cor carport the second carport is 631 ft 3 631 square feet and that's to the east of that just north of the shed um so for both of those they are 7.45 ft from the northern property boundary the requirement is 15 feet um yeah so again the question is going to be let's start with a carport to 203 square feet that seems like a piece of cake to move that to 15 feet and comply with the ordinance no want to come look at it so moving it it's 7 this is 7.45 Ft you would need to move it to 15 ft from the sidey from the northern from the North Point we're talking just the side yard yeah cuz there's turn turn around these are holding campers these could you describe what you put in each of these cardboards please yes so in the in the cardboard on the North West corner I have a um truck camper that I used to go fishing and on the larger cardboard we have a travel trail that we use camp for camping um the carport on the northwest corner I could move I could move to 15 feet from that North boundary line here um no because it wouldn't allow me I I wouldn't be able to park and maneuver vehicles and trailers there so it's it it's almost it one of the things that I like about this property when I moved in is that there's there's an entrance driveway and then it's almost at a small parking lot area which allows me to move right but you added Stone to that that wasn't that like that when you moved in that was Stone yes it was that was Stone I've added Stone to maintain it over over the years are you saying that the location of the gravel drive and parking area shown on this survey is exactly how it was when you moved in in 2006 and you didn't expand it in any way for the the driving the the the area that I use for driving and parking no not expand it's original what's indicating is gravel drive and parking area no that's that's how it was including to the carport the larger one that folds the recreational trailer was that expanded that was that was not gravel there we put the gravel for the building to be that's the question that's being asked right that's the question that's being asked so this here you had but this you added yes this area so you need to describe amongst all of this area that's currently shown on the plan as a gravel drive in a parking area what was there when you bought it and what you've added is the question right so so the gravel essentially the the area north of the house the dwelling was all Stone um up to the property line up to up to the property line yes that that area the carport that is 631 and the 537 that had to have gravel added so that the structure sit semi low that be added here and here uh no cuz there's a a leech field there septic septic leech field yeah where is that or one of the pipes that go through there where's the sep is there SE the septic is the Feld or does a pipe go through a pipe goes through okay so I can't build so I problem with that if a pipe goes through but the septic field is not there what's the problem with that oh I I I I don't know I didn't think build there I we don't see any prohibition of putting structure on top of an underground pipe leading to a leech field as long you can't put it on top of a leech field but you can put it on top of the PIP the only the only issue there is that there's large uh dougas forur trees that grow on a row from uh north to south from essentially where the shed is the 537 nextant not getting heard okay and sounds like if you could come back and add these trees that you're talking about we have an aial let's see the aial is the one in um the planner report yes right yes it's in the planner report Y where is that daral that's page three hang on let me get it it is on page three on page three you have a color copy with you we do yeah you can take that one need to to the board I oh which exhibit well that's that's not an exhibit to the application that's her planner support we that we yeah let's mark that as an exhibit a blown up copy of the aerial on page three from her report [Music] this is actually going to be our first exhibit exhibit A1 aerial image the proper [Music] just for the record where did this aerial image come from um that is from the New Jersey conservation blueprint it's the an online arcgis mapping platform on it Rowan University yeah Google looks like it's from no that is from the New Jersey conservation foundation's conservation blueprint which was developed by the New Jersey conservation foundation and Rowan University just look in the lower right hand corner why does it say it's a Google image I mean maybe they use Google image they I think they use Google image as part of their layers but that's the system it came from look down in the lower right hand corner that what it says right yes that's what it says I mean was assuming they must use that as their input for their aerial photography but I think for our for purposes of the record it's it's identified as a Google image it doesn't say anything about the New Jersey conservation foundation so let's just go with a Google image that's all now and it's Google imagery 2022 so it seems like it's very recent okay so you're saying that the line of trees if you if you move the 631 ft cport in between the 537 ft shed and the 75 sare foot shed the only way you could get to it would be to have to cut down one of those trees that your testimony yes I would have to remove actually that's a yes right no but not one tree multiple trees probably at least two okay go back to the 2003 carpo so you said you can move it 15 ft off the side yard to eliminate that variance what's the front yard requirement for the accessories is also 15 ft or is it more J listen if the principal structure is 8.82 feet at its closest and 9.04 feet at its furthest and the carport is 10.27 Ft that carport doesn't carport to me doesn't look like it's in front of the principal structure okay so there's no problem with the front and the applicant's Willing are you willing to move the 200 foot carport 15 ft beside you yes sir that would eliminate that variance so now what variances are left I know we're not at the big one yet the over 800 squ ft of accessory structures but what setback variances are we left with then the we have the the go shelter but he's agreed to to improve that condition the chicken cpop which he has we've already discussed the chicken coop you're taking care of the carport that's 631 Square fet I don't know we still have the variance for the 631 foot carport it's proposed at 4.21 feet versus 15 feet required so why don't you go for the uh go for the biggie right the ordinance says he can't have more than 800 square feet of accessory structures did we finish the 631 square foot or no we're good on that I mean Jeff asked can you put it anywhere else I ask can you put it anywhere else you guys have said no you've explained why there's any questions for you I that one alone and move on yeah okay all right so then we have uh the C1 variance for the accessory structures exceeding the allowable 800 square feet the applicant has 2346 square feet of existing accessory structures just a quickie for you are you sure you want to go with the C1 hardship variance for exceeding the 800 squ feet accessory structure when the someone's going to say well can't you eliminate a couple of those why do you need so many so can you think of some C2 positive reason to allow them to exceed the 800 square feet Mr Baran provided testimony about the house having no storage no basement um no place to keep any it's an undersized the home is an undersized is a historic structure he's testified it has no basement that it has no storage St that he is using these sheds for personal storage that for overflow from his house correct so in other words what she's asking you is could it be that a C2 positive advancement of the purpose of zoning would be where the stuff can't be stored outside and he doesn't have sufficient space it's not like some other house that might have sufficient space but there might be too much stuff in it but then he doesn't have too much stuff he just doesn't have enough area to put his stuff and therefore it would be enhance Aesthetics because it would look better if it's in these nice looking enclosures than being outside so yes that sound like yep that's work you agree that's correct yes and um any other C2 justifications for exceeding the limit on the square footage um I don't think so no right um working through this list we and we're not doing the check-in so that should be so got the fence we have the I'm sorry just the fence we have the one of the variances that is required is the continue location of fences which are located closer to the street line than the front set back line and are six feet High whereas code section 29642 C1 requires the fences be no greater than four feet in height Mr bargan has testified that there was already existing fencing that was six feet in height that it additionally provides privacy and light screening due to the topography and the hill of the road um do you in your professional opinion does this justify a C2 variance for the fence yes yes you have anything to add to that no I mean that was basically everything I was going to say about that so yep can you bring the mic just a little closer so that our explain the variance for defensing and explain the planning justification so the fencing um there was existing six- foot fence in the past when Mr vargan had brought the property he's continued to have the six foot fence even though the requirement is for 4 feet in height uh the purpose of the fence and the reason it's necessary is for privacy the property is right up to Old Clinton Road so there needs to be privacy fencing uh it also blocks light coming from Motor Vehicles traveling down Old Clinton Road and hold on are we only talking about that approximate 15 feet 15 feet of fence that's it that's it we're not talking about the fence on the side being six feet are we no no no so and the fence to the South is being removed right right okay so you're talking about how many feet of fencing again just to get this 15 15 15 fet for privacy yes okay so we've covered the um the use variants the applicant is respectfully requesting the use variant to have the piggy goats on a lot that is less than three acres um they are additional requesting the this is getting a little confusing with our adjustments that we are making but we do have the the goat uh shelter still requires a variance however in order to lessen the variance require requested um they will comply with the principal setback we don't have to review it yes I just feel like it's been a little bit I certainly will everyone understand they brought this thing into as much comp they say they can so there was one uh issue with uh lifestock West management plan okay so so there's some conditions that you guys might want to ask about I've written most of them down the only ones that haven't been covered there's a couple reports so attach to Jeff's memo of October 20th he has a report from there it is the Environmental commission yeah and there was a comment there yeah in the environmental commission they're concerned about the potential for pollution of surface waters and groundwater from runoff of animal manure I think they dealt with that reduction in the number of animals well they've already agreed to reduce the chickens from 10 to five if the zoning board approves the appli I'm just reading from the environmental commission's review memo which is not but it's attached to Jeff's memo they say they suggest a condition be imposed that you have a livestock Waste Management plan approved by an appropriate agency I don't even know what that is okay but do do any of you guys know what that is and would you be willing to do it can can I well let let her because we know that the planner would know what this is because she worked in the Somerset County planning office so the waste management plan is for commercial farming operations if it's under a certain amount of Acres I believe if it's under 10 acres or I forget how many animal unit pounds um you can self-certify with the Cooperative Extension but again that's for commercial farming so it doesn't really apply to this type of practice okay and then the last question about the condition was the last item in Jeff's memo which we kicked that hand down to the road to the end but we're at the end item 10 about asking for the conservation easement and the applicant has said we really don't want to do that and they've asked the board not to ask them for it because they said in this particular case there's already a drainage agement in that area and what's at stake here it's not going to really give the township a lot of added value I'm just putting words in your mouth but that's their argument in a nutshell so um first of all I assume you agree with them no livestock Waste Management plan okay and what about do you want to request the um conservation easement okay now can anyone think of anything that hasn't been discussed or hasn't been reviewed which should be discussed or should be reviewed okay since they waved their closing argument and there's no one in the uh the a here on this does someone want to deliberate yeah so I would propose we approve it couple of points I want to make is uh I was very impressed with your testimony about how important these goats are for Jakes um that's very critical I'm also very happy to hear about preserving that environment and it's a value historical value I think that's pretty good and uh lastly uh all the compromises you guys are making in terms of adjusting are sufficient as far as I'm concern yeah yeah I just wanted to add one a couple more points I did visit go P the site a couple days back and the Topography is somewhat limiting as far as places for utilization for the animals and the carports and the different items that you need to maintain a property of that size it's you know relatively wooded and uh some lot of limitations but I agree with rul on some of the items that the benefits of the of the animals not necessarily for a commercial Endeavor which some of these things tend to get to but this is this goes to more of a of a personal uh application of the usage and I'll be in favor of it I want to first thank the the applicants for coming I think that the testimony was very thoughtful and important um I can't say that I'm completely convinced that having both sexes of goats um is necessary necessarily the right thing and having potent potential of a lot of goats uh but I think that the goats that you have are important to you that's very clear is is very clearly important just based on your presence here today uh that I think they're more than just animals they're certainly very important pets and even maybe even family members to in the absence of them being a nuisance or having a negative impact on the environment around them and or on your neighbors uh I'm I'm inclined to support maintaining them as you propose them uh and would approve the application I agree with my colleagues being brought up on on a f and having goats and having horses having chickens a damn rooster that would wake me up at 5 o'clock in the morning every day um I agree with what they want to do I like the idea of of how how they really care for the child so I I really agree for this application I agree with all my colleagues um I think this is a very special case um I would however like to see a condition that says once the property is sold um this variance does not continue beyond the sale of the property in other words uh if someone were to buy the property uh from you uh they do not have permission to have six goats on the property um uh they can have five chickens um uh that's allowed apparently but uh they can have six goats um so you would be able to have the six goats uh for as long as you own the property and my assumption is is that U that would satisfy your personal needs um I going agree with that would make it a deed restriction yes I mean um we're not touching your car words uh no the um it would it would eliminate in other words it would eliminate the D1 variant for those goats I I would um I would prefer it if the property remains um able to maintain livestock like goats and it could be specific to just goats because they are truly the the most perfect livestock that you could have and also because the whole focus of your case was not that yeah yep no no that it that's that's fine okay he agrees yes yes yes okay so it's only the variances related to the goats expire all the rest correct running with a land correct okay someone want to make a motion and you can say the Grant all the relief subject to all the conditions that we discussed I'll make a motion to Grant the uh relief as described second call please chairman Mr Roger arens yes Vice chairman Mr Kevin Co yes Mr Bradford Perry yes Mr Randy block yes Mr ruzel DJI yes thank you thank you thank you for your thoughtful consideration I know this was I know this was tedious and I appreciate your thoughtful consideration this evening sorry it took so much time from your other applicant who's here [Music] to call that next case I know [Music] why don't you come on up call the next page Kevin first sheet hi everybody okay our next case is BOA case 14-223 the applicant Stuart McCrae uh the location is block 73 loot 6 34 Dory dils Road the application is for a c variance for an accessory structure that exceeds 800 square ft uh and in front yard Mr Craig sorry to keep you waiting for so long um but we will stay uh until 10:30 is the board agreeable to stay at 10:30 since MCC getting a late start so I hope that will allow us to get through this all right so let's have Mr McRae stand up let's have uh Jeff stand up and we have a neighbor here do you intend to testify we'll have you stand up also so everyone raise their right hands as everyone swear that the testimony they're going to give in this proceeding will be the truth the whole Tru nothing but the truth okay and let's start over here Mr McCrae identify yourself you're the applicant but for the record identify yourself spell your last name can you pull the mic around so thank you do that again m c can you hear now yes yes MCC r a y okay and what is your address where do you reside 122 M Road Flemington 122 AMW Road Flemington okay um can we have can you ident up to the microphone identify yourself Frank Tano I reside at 33 whoa whoa whoa whoa who Frank slow and loud Frank Frank tanero and spell your last name t n n e r o residing at 33 Dory DS Road Dory d Road Jeff Jeff okay since Mr McCrae is doesn't have an attorney he's representing himself um we can go back this one or two ways you can either explain to the board what you want to do and why or you can have Jeff give a and then you can comment on it you want to just explain what you want to do and why yeah it's uh i' like to a building that one I have uh things that I'd like to store in there that I don't have places to put currently I had a couple of um storage containers that they want Closer Closer containers that they like to have on touch the mic just leave it like how's how's that oh that's good okay very good and with that being said then then I'm I'm looking for a place then to put these items and this would accommodate me okay can I ask just a brief question because I just realized something you reside at 122 Amwell Road but the application is for a property located at 34 Dory Dil Ro that's correct so are you using 34 Dory dils Road as like a storage facility no I I do stay there on occasion but I do have items that I have also there okay what sort of items do you want to store in other words would you be moving the items that are now in the containers out of the containers and into this pole barn correct okay so what items do you have in the containers now it's all household and personal items okay another question right why don't you just get a storage unit there's a whole bunch of self storage places in the township why don't you just get a storage unit and put all the stuff in there into the microphone please I would like it at my property and so I can use it and when I'm there either do the project that I'm building or moving or constructing and have everything accessible while I'm there okay but again so what are you going to have in the pole that you need to have access to the you can't have access to in a storage unit it would be something that I would own and I would have right there my property wouldn't make sense to have it off base and have it somewhere else and then it would be probably incurring some monthly fee how far away is your Residence at 122 Amwell Road about three miles 3 miles from 32 Dory DS no it's 34 34 Dory Dil so it's three miles away roughly speaking right do you know the distance from the nearest celf storage facility to 34 Dory DS no okay do you do you understand that the two variances you need one of them is to have this storage facility in front of the primary structure which is a dwelling right and the second is to exceed 800 sare fet now you were sitting here for the prior hearing right the prior hearing the board said that the storage structure there was not in front of the prior applicant's house and the reason the board granted the C variance to exceed 800 square feet was because the the applicant testified as to every single thing that was going to be stored in these different places and why it was needed to maintain the property so again tell me exactly you said households what is going to be what do you propose to take out of these containers and put into this pole bar tell us exactly what I I basically just did it's it's my personal property be tools be tools household items things of that sort okay what kind of household items I can name almost anything well what it what household items are in the storage containers right now that's what I'm just saying I can name almost anything well name them all then you have a kitchen items I going to go on and on refrigerators and no no no nothing like that pots and pans yes if you have pots and pans in a cont in a storage container how do you have easy access to the pots and pans and you're going to take them out of the pole barn and bring them into your house to use them they're just either extra ones or ones that I probably will go to another place where I probably will be retiring in not that long a time okay because you listen you you got to talk to the board I don't have any other questions but you have to prove either you have some kind of hardship related to the property or that there's some benefit that's outweighs a burden for them to Grant these two variances and quite frankly what you've described so far is convenience which in my opinion does not qualify for a C1 or a C2 variance well I think I think Frank has an issue of it being I think I can probably we're not talking about Frank Frank hasn't said one word I know that but I think bringing it in I could almost maintain that well you're not going to be able to maintain the things in the containers because you're going to get a zoning violation for those containers to be moved off the site so you you you don't have an argument like the other guy had which is if I have equipment for the animals and I have this and that I could store them outside because that sort of stuff could be outside he could put a tarp over it but it will look better if it's inside you have these containers you're not going to be able to keep the stuff in containers because Jeff's going to go after you he's also the zoning officer he's going to go to municipal court and and give you a summons and you're going to have to take the containers with everything in them off the property so you don't have that argument here so you got to make some argument to these guys for why a PA bar and why does it have to be in front of the building and Frank hasn't said one word actually Frank can you get up there for one second just to everyone take out their survey just so you can understand where Mr how do you pronounce your last name tanero tanero Mr tanero where do you live in relation to the proposed pole bar the proposed building you see Dory DS Road right across the street yes right across the street practically like just where the words Dory Dil Road are like Dills that's will be our house be right there so when he does testify he's obviously going to testify if you're going to put it somewhere I don't want it there and and that's to me one of the reasons we're getting together today to see if anyone has some other desire wish or concern right the other reason though which he couldn't care less about but the board's going to care about is why do you need why can't what's the matter within 800 square foot because the ordinance allows an 800 square foot accessory building Jeff correct me if I'm wrong he's got the two-story dwelling and he's got a frame garage but the ordinance would allow a storage structure up to 800 square feet correct yeah correct so if you moved the proposed building from the front of the house to either the side of the house or the rear of the house I I think that's possible I probably have to have a tree go but I think that's possible and if you decrease the size from 1600 square feet to 800 square feet you wouldn't have to be here well there's other things I would like to like my tractor and other things of that sort so I would need extra room's the that's items from three or four people who have lost I have lost okay what what kind of items are in the garage it's from their Estates pretty much okay furniture clothes basically household items from their estate okay because a tractor seems to me a better location for a tractor is in a garage but again I'm getting back to if you're not willing to decrease the size of the building you're going to have to explain to them if you need a building this size why you can't just go get a storage unit the storage unit wouldn't accommodate tractors but one thing and what's in the house household items also he said oh household household items also and are the household items like put away in shelves or do you have them in boxes all over the place I have I have them in shelves but I do have boxes also listen address the board I got explain to so if you're willing to relocate the building I I I I I think the only issue on that is I would have I was looking for an easy I didn't know if anyone would have any concern but obviously I think Frank does so my suggestion is so and I'm I'm more than happy to accommodate anybody in any situation my suggestion is ask for a continuance work with Jeff to find a compliant location I be happy toos building and if you if you say you have to cut down a tree make sure you show Jeff some you know Google image so maybe Jeff can find some location where where you don't have to cut down a tree okay I was just going to say of what but you're describing just the basic site of the area correct to show jet a compliant location where you can put this but again if you don't if you agree to reduce its size to 800 square feet you never have to come back here again if you find a compliant location and reduce it to 800 square feet you never have to come back here again if you find a compliant location but you still want, 1600 square F feet you you're going to be here again and the same questions I asked you about why do you need 600 square F feet I'm going to ask you again 1600 that's what I meant I know I know you did so do you want to ask for a continuance I think he asked but if I show you this I'm talking to Jeff if I show you this we could kind of figure out something that probably be accommodating well do you think he can he can accommodate the location to make a compliance that's that exactly that's where I was focusing on there's nothing he can do to accommodate anything more than 800 square feet then it's out of his hands and it's in their hands understood on that now why don't we just for the record Mr tanera we're assuming that you're objecting to the location of the proposed building am I right that's true okay so if you moved that building into a compliant location your objection would go away uh right yeah okay in fact just so the board knows I I have no animosity toward Mr McCrae we've been knowing each other for 14 years now and I was shocked that he didn't at least come to me and tell me what he was plan my first notice was getting this you know and and where he wants to put it uh Stuart is right in front of my house and it's going to be about 45 ft high no it's not my house you know I mean because the I'm with you is 20t high off the road my house is 5T under so the 20 that's like 45 ft High I got I got like basically a skyscraper right in front so I I hear you clearly and this is why this is what I thought we were really going to be discussing here if this had any situations where anybody had any concerns this is where we're going to discuss that and then iron it out he was hoping that no one showed up no I didn't think that would happened I almost positive that if you didn't think that was happening he's right you should have just talk to him it be a lot easier and I even said I didn't think you had any concern I really didn't but obviously you do and and I'm more than happy to oblig over the years you never had a problem coming to me immediately when you needed me no yes well yes when I need tractors I've helped them out plenty of times no problem I didn't come to you to came to there was there was horses out on the road I just took care of it and then I came to you that's we're good we're good with each other yes we are so do you want a continuance to I think the word is yes yeah yes I see see how much I trust him okay listen if he complies I didn't have to come back but would you listen I understand listen if he has a compliant site and he brings it down to 800 square feet that's your problem it's no longer their problem okay I'm saying let's get it continu in case he finds a compliant location but he still is exceeding 800 ft so when he meets with you you can go over all of these issues instead of unless you think it would be beneficial that's what my next question was the continuance what date um um when is the application expire next meeting is November 3rd December 1st or December 15 what do we have on those dates tayor are they book okay so what do we have in what do we have on the reorder January anything we haven't started guess what rework now you're going to start but this is going to be continued unfortunately it's going to be a while because the board is very busy you're you're going to be scheduled for January what it'll be um hold on it's the first uh first Thursday in January will it be January 5th well if if Mr McCrae and Jeff can get a lot of this resolved in a very short period of time then it may not be appliation ready for this if L at to 800 square F feet to find a compliant location you don't have to come back here you get a zoning permit and it's construction permit if you find a compliant location but you still want more than 8 square feet then you got to come back on January 5th first Thursday January 5th January January 5th thank you then you have to come back on January 5th there'll be no need for further notice so I'm going to call you Frank because I'm going to butcher your last name I have some mental block and it's not nothing to do with you um so right down January 5th unless he gets resolved and you can check in with Jeff 7M yes you'll see the board you're going to reorg you'll find out that sitting on the end of your seat about the two engineers find out about that also and then you'll have the application after they re won sounds good to me I'm very happy okay so this matter is continued to January 5 with no need for further notice and hopefully you won't have to come back here but just in case it's definitely plausible January 5 okay thank you okay likewise thank thank you for your patience earlier appreciate that I've always been a patient man but I'm glad you got to see how they operate very well it's better than a father I had a combat Soldier he was out of control okay very good all in favor thank you