##VIDEO ID:MT2ZzmPxNvY## oh my God she's not hearing you're not even speaking loud enough I can't hear you turn on turn it on ghost so we're back to normal we're back to normal [Music] here okay you as I was saying going to call the RAR and Tang of Zoning Board of adjustment meeting of January 16 2025 to order the notice requirements of the open public meetings act have been satisfied by placing of a notice of this meeting on the bulletin board of the municipal building filing same with the Township Clerk and transmitting same to the hunter County Democrat The Courier News The Star Ledger and the Trenton Times and I'm going to ask the board secretary to please call the r Miss Cynthia schaer here M rul dami here Mr Steve fario here Mr Randy block here Mr Jim Ferrero here miss lindsy Kel has asked to be excused Miss Lor ktina here Miss Donna Drews here Mr James Miller here can you also call the staff yes Mr John drill here Mr Jeffrey fella here uh Mr Mr K sty you will be arriving late Mr J Troutman here miss Jessica cwell here Mr John Morgan Thomas here and can you call yourself oh Taylor Von here okay so this is the the board's reorganizational meeting and I don't want to I don't I want to know if before you reorganize you want to do anything um do you want to do the remembrance first yeah that's what I'm thinking because just for the record I in all the board members whose terms expired so this is a full compliment of sworn in board members up here okay okay so we'll start by reading the uh the honorary uh the resolution honoring uh Jackie clap for those who aren't aware other the stenographer Jackie clap has passed away um so I'll read the resolution and then if anybody wants to speak okay honoring Jackie clap for her hard work and dedication to the township of r whereas as whereas as of January 1st 2022 Jackie clap will be would will you know what this is the wrong resolution this is the wrong resolution why don't we table this to the end of the meeting and we'll get the right resolution okay so we'll table everything till the end okay so then on break you get the right one so why don't we get right into the reorganization and the first thing up is election of a chair so does anyone want to make any nominations yes I want to renominate Cynthia for the chair position any other nominations for chair seeing n nominations are closed can you make that into a motion to appoint her as chair I would like to make a motion I second it Randy seconded all in favor I any opposed any abstaining okay all right congratulations and you can take back the meeting okay thank you okay moving on to the ction of officers we had the chairman I'd like to get a vote to elect a vice chairman and I'd like to uh uh propose rasul DJI I second all those in favor I I any opposed okay so we have a chairman and a vice chair John we're going to bypass the Pro Temp okay okay so the appointments for 2020 so what do you need me to read on all these just the title yeah the title and who is being appointed and then you can do you can make a motion to approve the whole group okay so starting with the appointment the resolution appointing and retaining board attorney for 2025 whereas the board has determined that John E drill Esquire should be appointed and retained as attorney for the board for one year resolution appointing board planning experts for 2025 whereas the board determined that Township planner Jeff Jeffrey [Music] Vella PP a aicp and Jessica cwell PP aicp should be appointed as the board planning experts for the Year resolution appointing board engineering experts whereas the board determined that Rakesh dar dar PE C CME should be appointed as the board engineering expert for the Year resolution appointing the board traffic expert whereas the board has determine that JS Troutman Jr PE should be appointed as the board traffic expert for the Year resolution appointing the board landscape architect expert for 2025 whereas the board determined that John Morgan Thomas lla as laa should be appointed as board landscape architectural expert for the Year resolution appointing the board the board radio frequency expert for 2025 whereas the board determined that Charles HEC PE should be appointed as board radio frequency and wireless telecommunications expert for the Year resolution appointing board secretary and assistant secretary whereas the board determined that Taylor vau should be appointed as the secretary for the board and that Jeffrey Vella should be appointed as assistant secretary as the board resolution appointing board Geotech and Structural Engineering for 2025 whereas board determined that Gerald Jerry Adon PE and Richard Rick Adon PE of Frank H leer Associates Consulting Engineers should be employed and appointed as board Geotech Technical and structural engineer experts for the year we have a resolution establishing the schedule for the year for 2025 we have a resolution adopting rules and regulations for 2025 and I believe that's it can I get a motion to approve so move can I get a vote roll call just be clear this is for all the a vote to adopt all the resolutions memorializing those appointments okay chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr rul dami yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Steve fario yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss Lor cartina yes Miss Donna Drew yes and at the appropriate time I have the the correct resolution and I sent it to tell at the appropriate time maybe after you reorganize before you call the case for tonight she can go back and get it okay and I see Mr gromberg isn't here yet either okay do that oh I did it I was doing it backwards yeah apologies okay um I don't have me John John I have a minute to close meetings I don't can I do them all at once no okay okay so for the minutes we have um three for closed sessions so obviously there's no minutes um so October 17 2024 does anybody have any concerns or considerations concerning that closed session and just so everybody's clear um eligible vote is schaer block Guerrero uh Christina Drews and Miller okay can I get a motion to approve more I'll second can I get a vote chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss Lor ktina yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving to the next meeting minutes November 7th 2024 closed session if anybody has any questions or concerns we'll go into close session to discuss them if not can I get a motion to approve and again this is schaer fario Ferrero Chistina and Drews can anybody want to make motion so moved second I'm Sorry chairwoman Miss cythia schaer yes Mr Steve farsio yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss laor ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes okay meeting minutes close session November 21st 2024 any cons condition concerns everybody is eligible to vote so okay hearing none can I get a motion to approve I'll get I'll get the motion and I'll second great can I get a vote please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr rul dami yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Steve fario yes Mr Jim ferero yes Miss Lor ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes okay for the resolution John we've already covered the appointments the schedule y the rules the official I don't think there was one for official not newspaper yes there is there is there is all right and just for the record the official news paper follows the township which is what the newspapers are is that we asking okay I would like to just read it yeah while she's looking that up I think everyone's aware The Star Ledger is stopping the paper print middle of February and the legislature adopted a law allowing noticers to continue to go to The Star Ledger to their email their um digital Edition and this is a stop Gap the legislator is going to have to figure F out what to do about it a lot of us think that we should let notices be placed on the Township's websites that would be a place to make it a lot easier to see it in the past the newspaper Lobby has always lobbied against that for the advertising Revenue well now that the Star Ledger and it's not just a star lger it's a Star Ledger and all these small Affiliated papers owned by The Star Ledger now that they're not publishing paper why should they be allowed to make the money off of digital when municipalities can do it for free on on their websites but we'll see what happens John just point of clarification The Hunton County Democrat has stopped yeah that that's the faity that's owned by the star lger okay yep okay so the designated newspapers are the H County Democrat The Courier News and the Star Ledger two those three going yeah I thought The Courier News is still okay yeah all right uh the applicant attorney is not here yet so maybe now would be the time for for remembrance okay do we want to let Taylor go and get the uh make sure we have it yeah all right so if you could just thank you would you like me to just pause the recording though yes please you want you want to let let's adjourn for five minutes better her get it and come back okay okay the meeting back to order as we wait for um the first applicant uh we' like to take a few moments to remember uh Jackie clap as we um identified at the uh beginning of this meeting Jackie um has passed um for those who didn't know Jackie was here 52 years um she started in 1972 I don't know where you were 72 but I was a freshman in high school school I worked with Jackie about 10 years and uh she was an absolute pleasure and professional um I used to call her my Silent Partner because she sat there and took all the notes and transcribed it for us and make sure we know all the facts um she was a silent partner until as we all know and even some of the people in the audience if he didn't speak loud enough or slow enough all of a sudden Jackie broke up and it became so so so regular that we became her chorus so she didn't have to say anything we were just like looking at hey slow down speak up so um she didn't have to say anything anymore when I first started at the board which by all means was a mistake okay I did not apply to be a volunteer I answered a call for volunteers for the town and when I sent in the email I said please have somebody contact me so we can figure out how I can be helpful the last place I wanted to serve was here making decisions concerning my neighbors when someone finally contacted me it was to let me know that my swearing in was next week at the board of adjustments to add to it the first major application I was involved with ended up being denied and we were sued not a good experience not really happy with this we did win we did after a few days I received a note in the mail Jackie had sent me a personal note letting me know that she really liked my closing comments in the deliberation and how impressed she was it really meant everything to me and I really um still have it to this day couple years ago when she celebrated her 50th Anniversary we threw a little party we surprised her and it was nothing big just you know cakes and balloons and flowers and um the mayor came and read a resolution and we had some past board members come she really liked it and uh she was surprised we got her so that was good um and a few days later I I received a note in the and Jackie let me know that she really appreciated it and being the warm person she is she eded some very nice things about how I was running the board and she that she really appreciated it and I really appreciate the comments because it's it's it is what it is you know you want to serve and you want to do the best you can and I still have that note in chair and we cherish it I'm really glad that we were able to throw the party and get her and and let her know how much we really appreciate her when Jackie fell ill this time um she didn't want flowers or cards um so I wanted to let her know that we were missing her and that we couldn't wait to get to have her come back so I thought I would write her some notes so I used to drive by her house and drop notes in her mailbox hoping that her family would pick him up and take them to her and they let me know on Sunday that they did and that she got got them so and for the uh we did provide a spray for the uh services from the board of adjustments for the uh funds that you provided to me um they had the uh service on Sunday it was lovely so uh for those who weren't there uh Jackie service was at the Flemington Courthouse the the old historic Courthouse the old historic Courthouse house where she started which was really lovely that they were able to do it in the courthouse and her kid and her kids were saying how after school they would come and sit in the courthouse um it was a lovely service and um I'm glad we were able to attend anybody have anything else they want to add yeah i' I'd like to add something um so be a little bit of a different perspective um as an attorney you know it's funny when you go to a um when you're litigation where you're in a room like this everybody thinks they're probably the most important person in the room whether it's you know one of us someone in the audience the attorney professionals you know the applicant but whenever you're in litigation or whatever you're in a situation uh in an application like this the most important person in the room is the core reporter and as an attorney when you're in litigation you always remind the witnesses of that because you could say whatever you want and you can get some great testimony you can get some great objections and you get some great comments but if she doesn't get them down then it it's not helpful um Jackie was a trip um my so my partner uh Joe Trinity um he used her a lot and had a lot of cases where she was a court reporter and he always raved about her and I remember now I'm thinking I think it's like nine years ago that I was on this um Board of adjustment and I came back to the office and I remember just saying to uh Joe guess who the court reporter is and he was like couldn't say enough nice things and good things and he was right um you know and and Cynthia was right you could take one look at her and you could see she's either really pissed off um or she's going along like hey this is good but she didn't have to say anything anymore um I actually wanted to try giving her tennis balls and every time someone didn't speak up let her throw him at him uh at whoever it was because I think people would be in in trouble but um you know when you're again when you're a court reporter and you are uh with a with anybody for I say three four years she was with with uh the board of adjustment for 52 years just tells you that she was a tremend she was not only a tremendous person she was old school tough um tough tough lady uh really tough um but she was very smart very good at her job and the fact that she was here 52 years should tell you everything you need to know um no one keeps her job for 52 years um unless you're good at it and um so you know and obviously you know she had a um a diagnosis that everybody probably everybody in here um has had to deal with someone that's had to deal with cancer um I'm actually I'm going through it not myself but I'm going through it right now uh with very two very close people so it's tough um but you got to be you got to be tough and she was tough I mean she was toughening it out all the time um and even when she wasn't here she was on the zoom we we knew when she was upset you know with with the witness or whoever it was at that time as well so um but just just all I just I think you know the one of the things I always say you usually at the end of the year um you got to really appreciate the people that you're you're working for everybody obviously knows that um you know we're we're volunteers we don't our our salary is really bad zero um in fact it's probably in the negative if you put all the time you put in um but you know this is really it and it's it's it's it sucks and it's stressful because you know this is really kind of like a family we all kind we all get along real well and uh Jackie was kind of like the um the kind of the glue that kind of kept everything together because she really she really was good at what she did so she's going to be missed and obviously um I'm glad that we were able to do this um unfortunately for me I wasn't able to be there on Sunday for other reasons um but you know um I know that she knows that we appreciated her so that's all I want to say okay there's no one else I'd like to read a resolution you're going to ask that the after you read it that the board make a motion to adopt it correct correct raran Township Board adjustment resolution honoring Jackie clap for her hard work and dedication whereas on January 16 2025 the ran Board of adjustments oh wait I have to slow down I'm sorry the ran Township Board of adjustments set aside time during a reorganization meeting for board members to honor and remember Jackie clap upon her passing and whereas Miss clap served as the board's official stenographer for 52 years and whereas the board notes and stresses that Miss clap distinguished herself over the years as a hard worker and a provider of accurate and timely transcripts of board proceedings and whereas the board notes and stresses that Miss clap served the board over years with honor and distinction as well as with healthy with a healthy sense of humor and now now therefore be it resolved by motion made and second on January 16th 2025 and passed on under unanimous vote by the ran Township Zoning Board of adjustment as follows the board officially recognized and honors Jackie clap for her dedication and service to the board over 52 over the past 52 years the board directs its secretary to present the resolution to miss cla's children Dennis BOS and Melissa constein yep the board directs its secretary to attach a copy of this resolution to the official minutes of the board's January 16 2025 meeting so can I get a motion to I'll make the motion I second it I didn't get too far okay can I get a vote chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr dami yes Mr Steve bario yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss Lor ktina yes Miss Donna Drews yes okay thank you okay we move on to the applications for this evening Mr gromberg is joined us B a case number 05-22 applicant is Countryside properties LLP location is block 74 lot 5.39 359 Old York Road application B bifurcation use variant for proposed three multiple multiple family resident building evening Madam chairperson members of the board Steven Gruenberg attorney in Flemington on behalf of the applicant um this is not a fun night to be here tonight but um we have to move on with our application I said what I wanted to say about Jackie on Sunday but she will be really missed thank you but where we left off last time was we had a traffic expert that presented testimony um and unfortunately he has Co um so what we would like to do is present uh um supervisor to start that testimony over um after the last meeting you had asked for us to provide additional information including the vide tapes to uh your traffic expert um Troutman who has reviewed those submissions are amended report and he issued an updated traffic report um which sure you have which essentially said that hey Steve can you pull that microphone closer to you now we have to really make sure we have good recordings because if anyone ever needs a transcript we're going to have to get some kind of transcription service which is not going to be a good situation we've had it so good that you'll see that this is and and I would have been yelled at you yelled at me so true um thank you for the reminder and also just procedurally Mr gromberg let me know that the traffic expert who started testifying would not be able um to continue asked if they could do that via Zoom I told them the board's policy was the only people that get to use zoom or board members if it means they get to participate in a meeting and not and that we're not using Zoom because we have found that it's much better to have a live witness and therefore if they couldn't produce that traffic expert any testimony he gave is going to have to be stricken can't be relied on and bring someone in um that has the same knowledge level or a higher knowledge level and have start from scratch because the other guy was not cross-examined and unless they're cross-examined the board can't consider the testimony so any testimony from the past expert you act as if it didn't happen and as he said you're starting from scratch on the traffic testimony with this expert I would like our replacement traffic expert to be himself and right can you identify yourself sure my name is Michael Dy D is in David R O B is in boy and is a Nancy why okay can you raise your right hand do you swear or affirm the testimony you're going to give in this matter it's the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do okay Mr gromberg can you get him qualified sir please give your qualifications for uh sure um as I said my name is Michael dney I'm the uh manager of the highway and traffic uh Design Group at friendship REO Associates um as was touched upon Mr masel uh is a direct report of mine um some background on myself uh graduate of Ruckers uh College of Engineering 2001 switch I get my own again uh with a bachelor's in civil engineering um licensed professional engineer in New Jersey since 2006 um also licensed in Pennsylvania and New York uh licensed or certified Municipal engineer in New Jersey as well um so I've been doing uh roadway and traffic uh engineering work at this point going for 24 years I offer Mr trne as an expert in the field of traffic engineering have you testified before I have not appeared before this board before okay other boards yes not okay we'll accept it thank you um so if you could please give the board the benefit of your analysis with respect to the traffic impact of this proposal sure um you know obviously as we said we you know a little bit of a unique circum St we've got a switch in the middle here uh Personnel but um obviously before I came here tonight I reviewed the uh the the video from the last hearing um you know the uh reports that Mr masel has done I review the reports that your traffic engineer has issued uh performed a site visit today as well U from my own personal knowledge uh site um you know really as far as the uh the site goes and and the report that was done by our office there's really kind of two main uh elements to the report um the first one um talking about trip generation from the site um as you guys are aware you know the the previous approval for the site was was for general office use um you know with the change in use that's being proposed now uh to sen housing um what was done in the report uh there was a comparison of the trip generation um of the previous use that would be generated by the previous use um compared to uh you know what is currently proposed um so you know the methodology that was used was the um the it Institute of Transportation Engineers uh trip generation manual uh the most recent Edition is the 11th Edition um so you know what was done in our report uh we we estimated the um the trips that we be generated by the site uh for a general office building use um as well as for you know the uh the senior housing that's currently proposed um basically what we did comparing the two um you break them down there there's a table on page six of the report and the report we're talking about is I'm sorry the December 18th so I'm sorry uh 16th the last revised December 16th 2024 report correct yes table on page six on page six um there's a table that shows the trips generated for the what would be generated for the Office Buildings what is proposed to be generated for the senior housing and then a table with a comparison um of the difference between them um I can read the numbers to you if you guys like or I you should read the numbers because members of the a don't have this in front of them sure yeah before you read the numbers uh or if you read the numbers could you please start with um I think it's on page three where it says what day and times um it says you know from 7:00 am to 9:00 a.m and 4: a.m. to 6 so I was I was going to hit that second if you okay don't mind okay I fig this is kind of the straightforward piece to to get out of the way um so you know as as far as the the office building use goes um based on the the square footage second sorry we have one extra copy that you'd have to anyone want to see one of these I actually have a couple extra copies if anybody else okay if anybody would like a copy just come on over here I'll give I'll hand one out [Music] um we have one extra one over here also and he's gonna refer to page six can I your honor We're Not Gonna remember who hasn't return him after John can I ask a quick question before that real quick just I forget I think this was discussed last time but I don't have my note on that the um the numbers that you're going to read sir for the general office building do you remember where you got those numbers or where those numbers came from the the trip numbers yeah yes they're from the uh it trip generation manual they're based on the the square footage of the building no no I know that but the general office building was the prior use correct correct so where did you get those numbers though for that is that you did that as well same same men got it okay thank you so they different they have different codes for different types of land uses but the same um so for everybody's reference for the the previously approved uh office building uh in the morning that would generate um 75 trips during the peak hour now when I say a trip that means in or out of the site obviously in an office situation the majority of people are going to be coming in in the morning um you know in the afternoon you would expect it to generate 71 trips uh in that peak hour as well again obviously the majority of them would be coming out um so over the course of the day the site would be EXP to generate 537 total trips in and out of the site over the course of the day um and then as far as a weekend goes obviously you're going to have a lower volume on the weekend um but you would have expect 26 trips during the peak hour and 110 trips over the course of the day now obviously you know an office situation is a you know fairly high traffic use as people coming in and out throughout the day um when you compare that to the um senior hous that's proposed right now uh the 24 units um you have an AM peak of five um you have a PM peak of six uh you have 78 cars for the total day coming in and out of the site um the weekend Peak is eight and the weekend for the day is 66 um so you know you can see we're orders of magnitude difference here um the the senior housing when you compare it uh during the day during the peak hours it's about a 90% lower trip generation than office build um over the course of the day it's about 85% reduction and then on the weekend it's about 2third reduction you look at what is currently proposed versus what was previously approved um so obviously you know major major reduction in overall traffic being generated from the site um the second part of the report and kind of what you had touched on and I you guys spent a lot of time on at the the last meeting was the the actual traffic analysis that that went along the site um you know I saw Mr masel got about as far as introducing what was done and then you know we kind of got into a discussion about the methodology that was used for traffic counts um so I think what I'm going to I'm going to kind of reintroduce just what the count was done yep um and then you know we because I know that was a lot of what got revised in the report that was you discussion focused around um so we did you know as part of the study obviously what you want to do is when you're putting in the new site you want to see what's going to happen to the worldwork around so you know we start by doing traffic counts to find out what the traffic is out there um currently so to to for the record to clarify um when the counts were done so French and pello did turning movement counts um at two intersections they did at the intersection of Old York what what page of the report are you on I will on page and the the traffic operations section on page the bottom half of Page Three and I assume everything in bold is the revised material the new material correct um because I know like I said I know there was some some clarification requested yep last time um so you know French a Prolo Associates did turning movement counts at the intersections of Old York and Linton we did that on Wednesday October 16th 2024 and then we did one at Old York and Wells and what would be the site driveway uh on Thursday October 17th now concurrently we had a subc consultant uh National Data surveying Services NDS for for short um perform a what used to be an ATR account where you would put the tube down across the road what does ATR stand for ATR automated traffic reporter um that that was the old fashioned you put the tube on the road the car drives over it you know it hits it feels the the hit of air and counts it that way um but so they did a a 7day count that overlapped um with ours as well so their count went from Tuesday October 15 2024 through Monday October 21st 2020 right but did they do an ATR or did they do the equivalent they did an equivalent so the methodology that was used by both us was and is you know really is now the common practice in in traffic engineering the days of somebody sitting in their car with a count board Counting Cars of come and gone at this point um it's actually good to know about that that's come and gone people still do it don't get me wrong but it's oh we the board knows people still do it yeah um so both companies used um they're called myo vision is the company that that um produces them they're they're cameras um that you either Mount up on a utility pole you can mount them on a uh their own stand they they come with it you can mount them on um but what it does it records video of the the intersection the location that you're looking to count and then what you do is they have a a processing element of their company where they take your video um you know watch the video process the video and return you with the countdown so instead of you know me having a person sit out on the site for eight hours to get eight hours or counts you know they may process it in two or three hours of their time and get so there's a cost savings involved in and an efficiency I have a question yeah so last time when we talked the issue personally for me not for rest of my colleagues here was not necessarily the recording versus somebody being in person that was not my issue my issue was more related to the both parties ours as well as yours we're not personally involved in coming up with this report so we didn't know how to justify because was you are the expert now so how involved were you in this like how can we make sure how do you give us the assurance that this report is credit credibility the I mean as far as the report goes I mean we're you know like for the trip Dr we're we're utilizing you know industry standard Publications as a as a backup for our you know trip generation estimates so how does that get reviewed you got the analysis you're using a third party you are the witness now so how do you assure us that this report and what have you done to make sure this is in your opinion the right report well and I think that goes to um you know some of the conversation you guys had last time about reviewing the videos to make sure that the videos there wasn't glitches in them they performed at the right time they said they were the locations they said they were um you know and that was specifically requested by the board um so you know Mr masel as part of the the preparation of the revised report did exactly that he looked at the videos made sure they were in the right place right time your board traffic engineer did the exact same thing issued his his memo his opinion that they were indeed correct the data made sense that came out of them um what I did personally as well was um compared the number numers that our counts sh French and frillo counts showed versus the counts that um n DS's numbers showed for consistency make make sure that the numbers matched um I can give you what what I an example of what I came up with um so looking at the the Wednesday you had you know we did our Counts from 88 from 7 to 9:00 a.m. and from 4: to 6: is this in the report somewhere this is not okay this is yeah so I did a straight numbers comparison to make sure that they matched up you looked at the cameras you had and compared those numbers to the numbers that your subc consultant came up with looking at their cameras correct what's the date uh starting at Old York and Linton I looked at the Wednesday October 16th from 8:00 am to 9:00 amm French and pill's count showed n or 380 cars combined going both ways on York Road ndss results were 383 so three cars difference I you know one% difference 5 to 6 p.m. French and pill's number was 427 theirs was 433 again one and a half% difference um at Old New York and Wells on Thursday October 17th from 8:00 to 9:00 a.m. French and Prolo said 3:33 NDS said 3:35 5 at 6:00 p.m. French imp said 4:32 NDS said 4:38 all right so I have a followup so basically what you're saying is that um and I think this is important you so what you're saying is that you you actually looked at the videos right yes okay so that's important that's important for us okay because just so you understand last time we had a report that um essentially there was no personal involvement at all okay so that was our issue okay now that may be whatever it may be now again our our traffic expert didn't have a chance to look at the videos um at that time either now we do know that he did now we have a a report I think it's j if I'm correct December 19th 2024 uh memo uh three pages and so what you're saying is you actually went in looked at the videos and went to see whether or not the numbers it sounds like it's like a 1% maybe which is fine so yeah so what I I went to the The General ated numbers that came out of that came out of the results than for and cuz you're right for my own Comfort level too just to make sure that well just they're saying one thing and we're saying something completely different obviously I don't want to sit here and tell you that either well I mean yeah I mean and the other thing is that we had no idea that there was no personal involvement of your firm which there really wasn't so our staff is our staff physically put the cameras out for the counts that we did okay and you know again I picked it up you know moved it from one intersection to the other and picked it up done very helpful thank you can I ask a question about that yes just to just to get testimony on it your firm goes out and sets it up and I assume there's a protocol or instructions that they follow and that they set them up it has to be so high has to point it and and then do they sign off on anything saying uh my initials and on the date I set this up up or is it just really just a professional I follow the protocol it's not like a formal procedure or anything and then the same thing when the when somebody picks them up it's not they're following instructions it's not so much a protocol like a pharmaceutical protocol where you have to make every step or some something's really going to happen here correct it's just general instruction it's not that form okay yeah all right thank you but I mean like you said obviously you know we want to make sure that we're getting and when they set it up they're looking at the best location to put it to get the clearest view that they want of the location that they're looking at um making sure it's secure you know there's several locks and stuff that go on it can I make a recommendation formalize it if you come before the board again could you just do that I mean just having somebody's initials and and and date I went out I whoever signed that is saying I set it up correctly it just adds a little bit more yeah yeah this this was just so cold and so blanket that we just got too much thank you yeah that's fun so yeah and I mean like I said you know obviously technolog is changing you know it's scone because yeah when you know whoever it was went out there with a piece of paper and an account board and wrote stuff down you were getting them physically writing it down yeah so um but no I mean that's completely makes sense and I'm assuming based on your um review of this and looking at the videos that you looked at um obviously your conclusion to us is going to be that had the general office building went in the traffic would be a little bit worse than not when I say traffic worse there would be more traffic than there would be with the proposed application before us today correct okay yes and and that's why I kind of wanted to separate out the trip generation piece that I talked about first versus the you know the traffic counting knowing that you know that was a little bit more of an issue some discussion I think I want to try and ask your opinion and I'm not sure if it's right okay so when I looked at the chart on on page six and I looked at the difference okay and you look at the office building you look at the proposed housing and so let's take you know the 70 in the AM and 65 difference in the p.m and um you know and on the weekends that sounds pretty terrible to me that sounds what that sounds pretty terrible to me okay can you give an opinion of what the Yeah I was yeah so if if I if I lived in that area okay 75 cars in the morning versus five the five sounds a lot a lot better and it sounds like if I if I had to think about it I'm not gonna I just a regular person is saying I'm not going to notice five and maybe I will okay maybe one car will be in my way if I'm in my neighborhood 70 that has got to be tremendous I mean in this road that you saw today this this it's not a highway that to me means there are cars on this road in the peak hour all the time is that true or am I I again I'm trying to imagine what it would look like for a normal person sure so if you using the the morning for the office again what page you on six six yeah again go that that 75 peak hour trip like I said I know I don't know the number off the breakdown off hand that the trip generation man uses but it's probably safe to assume it's 8020 coming into the office in the morning you know people are coming into work so of that 75 trips you're talking almost 60 of our people coming into the office building so it's one car a minute it's one car a minute during that geek out okay yeah that gives me a visual that I can I can understand a little bit better so I have a reverse question again this is just education because I don't know anything about this traffic analysis right how is this believable that that the difference is so big from 75 to 5 how would you how do I rationalize that it's completely based on your study or whatever yep it's completely use dependent because I mean you think about like I said if you're 8 n o'clock in the morning you've got 50,000 square feet of an office you know 49 change as was previously approved that's 50,000 square feet worth of people that are coming into the building in the morning workers exactly whereas if you've got you know 24 senior you know town houses for the uh you know you might have somebody leave you know in the morning you're going to have people that are retired so they're not even leave during the PE the peak you know there's going to be no trip associated with it um you know you're it just the intensity of the use is it is order magnitudes difference so thank you yeah because I mean even you think about I mean not that it's a direct comparison but you you know you even think about like a um I don't want to say age or I don't want to say assisted living facility you know but something again that's you know more of senior housing development you don't have a lot of people coming in and out throughout the day you're going to have some visitors come in and out you're going to have you know whoever lives there in this case you know this case is independent people so they're going be you know coming and going they going to go sh exactly but what what is the peak hour the PE so the peak hour what we we came up it's 8 to 9: in the morning right and it's 5: to 6 at night right so again if I live there I probably want to avoid the rule at at that time because I know that's when I might not even want to get up before 9 if I'm retired so like I said it's just it's the use is what it comes down to so um so you know to that end I mean you know we did using the the the count data that we gathered from from the on the site the the estimated trips that we came up with for the two the different uses um what we did was we ran a level of service analysis for the two intersections that are you know that we looked at one right at our driveway and one at as well um so you know it was run under three different scenarios it was run under the existing condition of take the traffic that's there today look how the intersections work um it's done under what's called a no build condition so basically you know in this case typically we assume three years in the future so that would give the applicant time to build the site get the site occupied stuff like that so you know three years from now 2027 being in this case being the noil year and what NJ doot does is they publish they call them background growth rates that it makes an assumption that over that course of time however much growth is going to happen in the surrounding area not nothing to do with your site so like for hun County for the type of roadway that that Old York Road is classified as they say to assume that there's going to be 1% year over-ear for those three years so what we do is we take our traffic counts that we did right now apply that 3 years of 1% growth to the run the same analysis and we call that our no build condition so then your third you know situation is your build condition so you take that okay what page of the report are you on now the I'm kind of just explaining okay at this point um you take your no build volumes that are going to naturally happen by themselves and then you add your site traffic to um and that's what you call your build because 3 years so now my site's occupied it's up and running and you still got your regular you know growth happening around um so to go back to the report if you go to page starts this if you go to page five it shows you the actually I actually want to go back back to page four my apologies so the table on page four gives you what the um the levels of service uh are for the existing conditions now you know what part of what was included uh in Mr trapman's latest memo was a breakdown of the different classifications of levels of service so a b c d e and what you have associated with each of those is a delay expected delay so like if I pull up to the intersection you know I'm going to get delayed by x amount of seconds sitting there so level of service a is less than 10 seconds so pretty much I'm going to pull up I'm going to look both ways maybe I got to wait for one maybe two cars to go by and I pull out whereas you get to like a level of service e or F you know you may need to wait for 40 50 seconds to be able to get out so obviously you're going to get annoyed you're you know not going to be happy um typically in our analyses we we strive to get to a level of service C or better so you know a level of service C uh works out to 15 to 25 seconds of delay at a stop at a stop sign so in our case you're existing uh conditions out there the inter both of the intersections operate a level of service a there's no traffic operations issues whatsoever they both work very well the both intersecting streets are pretty low volume roads so you wouldn't expect there to be you know a significant amount of delay that comes up with um the table on page five when I switch back over is the same table um Run for the no so taking that ex I do have a question yep these are reports numbers um when you guys did your analysis is it a low traffic area in your opinion the side streets absolutely currently so yes I just want to get reality versus reports the I I mean again when you look the the traffic count data that we had for some of these side streets I mean you're less than 10 cars out so every now right today yeah right now so you know coming out of Wells I think you know might have been like five or seven cars in the peek hour so I mean it's every 10 minutes you've got a car coming out of that kind of so know not busy um so the table it's the same table same format on page five for the no build year um what you can see in that again uh the intersection columns they stay at levels of service a for the overall intersection really no change whatsoever in in what's going on out there um when you jump to page seven there are the build years uh the top portion of the table is for if the office building went in and the bottom table is for the senior housing going now even with the office building going in the the intersection still operate at a level of service a again just because you have so little conflicting traffic coming in from side streets out here Old York Road just continues to to function now we do have there's a column in here that says DeLay So that's where kind of the change happens um between the office building and the the senior uh development so like you know for the old York and Wells and where the site driveway is going to be that's that bottom row in the first the first table you know it shows a 1 second delay and a 1.6 second delay in the morning in the afternoon and same Row in the bottom table it's 2 and2 which is you know essentially nothing that 0 2 matches what the existing condition is so putting in you know the the proposed senior development really does not impact the traffic operations out there um because you know the roadway Network now works at a good level of service you know there's it's really not going to cause any type of um development to um so again just to kind of you know just to kind of wrap up um you know obviously we talked about the the difference in the trip generation that you would expect you know for the senior housing that's proposed Now versus an office building I mean obviously the level of traffic that we're talking about now you know would significantly fit in better with the the uh you know the environment the surrounding area that's out there as opposed to you know an office complex um and again you know there's there's really is no back to the the traffic operations out there from this new okay you reviewed Mr troutman's report of December 19th 2024 yes and does he essentially confirm your findings both as to the placement of the cameras and um a random audit of the video files yes and um he actually provided the level of service manual and concluded his comments because he actually reviewed the video footage as well correct correct I have no other questions anyone any professional have any questions board members I do Jay is there anything that needs to be added or anything I mean obviously we all read your report um but it looks like from your review of the videos um it's in line with what the report says you'd agree I do agree okay all right at this point we're going to open it up to anyone in the public who would like to ask questions of this witness please traffic question traffic questions right if you'd like to you come up to the microphone provide your name and your address Frank DKI or Wells Road can you spell that please d m b r e s Ki his first name again Frank Francis or Frank Francis okay your address sir again was four four Wells Road thank you I got a question but you keep making a comparison between office building traffic and residents saying the resident's going to be a lot less when the original Builder got a variance to build a commercial property on that site the big argument was his argument was since it's an office building the office traffic usually won't get there till 7:30 8:00 at 6:00 most of the time the office is closed there won't be any traffic or any lighting after hour in the evening no noise during the evening no traffic on the weekends now when you have a residential you brought up about how many people live there and their comings and go but you didn't bring up Uber drivers home AIDS deliveries uh weekends holidays uh parties birthdays any of those activities so I don't think the information is completely accurate when you consider how the variance was given originally and trying to make a comparison to an office building being a lot more traffic than a resident I have friends that hold hold up one second the question is the question is but hold on I just want to factually did this board of adjustment Grant a variance for that office building or did the planning board Grant site plan approval for a permitted office building Jessica or Jeff do you know it was the planning board yeah so this board no variance was granted for an office building as a use well well the I guess the planning board the planning board GR gred a site plan approval they didn't need a use variance that office building is permitted right so what's ask them what's the question for him the question is is how how are you coming up with the fact that you're you keep saying that it's going to be a lot less traffic with a resident versus an office building when we were told as residents that the office building wouldn't even be operating only during business hours not nights and weekends okay let me can I rephrase your question tell me if I got this straight I think what he's asking is was an analysis done on not Peak traffic but evening and weekend traffic because his the the underpinning of his question is that an office building would have most traffic during peak hours but would have nothing in the evening whereas residences might have more in the evening and an office building wouldn't have that much on the weekend whereas residen would have more in the weekend is that your question yes can you answer that question okay so going back to the the trip Generation table that was on age six the when you look at the the table there's a there's a column for the morning Peak period there's a column for the PM Peak period and then there's a daily total col the daily total as it said is is the whole day so when it puts out these trip Generations so the daily total is a 24-hour per 24 for the entire day so what it does when they create these trip generation manuals is they take studies from all over the country of similar type uses um and come up with a you know average number average anticipated number for the traffic associated with that particular type of use so going by you know that data the office building when you look at it for the day as a whole is 537 cars the resident units is 78 total this is in and out of the site over the course of the entire day now obviously you know what you're saying is correct the office building is going to be busiest between call at 8:00 a.m. and 6 or 7 p.m. when everybody goes home the um will there still be people coming in and out of the site as residents after that sure if somebody goes out at night go out dinner comes back home has some friends over like you said um but really what we're doing is we're looking at this this level of service element of it you know we we're trying to compare it to the busiest time right but for forget about he's not interested in the daily he wants to know 24-hour period so your testimony is that the prior approved office building would had would have had or is projected under the it um the 11th Edition to have 537 trips in a 24-hour period during the week during whereas the proposed senior housing per the it 11th Edition projects 78 trips during a 24-hour period correct and now go through the weekend because he also wants to know about the weekend yep he wants to know 24hour you know for a weekend so now for the weekend the office building um is 110 trips that would be you know typically would be a Saturday the representative day um and the senior housing is 66 so obviously it's it's a you know there there's not much of a drop in senior housing between weekday and weekend because people are still you know active about the business on the weekend whereas the office building you know has that significant drop from where it is during the week because you know the offices might not be open but you still you're going to have some people com out weekend you know depending exactly what the office the individual office is that's open I obviously we can't predict that that may have some activity on it on the weekend associated with it um so there's still going to be some traffic in and out of the office on weekend regardless so you know it's not going to be zero but you know again it's it's still you know the the senior housing is generally pretty consistent across the days of so that's that his answer all right now um as far as creating an intersection there do do you do you when you do a traffic study you do safety observation or you just do traffic flow it's a little bit of both because right there is a passing zone and you're creating an intersection and I haven't seen any place in under in county or any place where you have a passing zone and you have a te you're intersecting roads that's not uncommon I've never seen it because to me it's dangerous um yeah I mean yeah like I said I mean typ generally it's It generally it's usually count County or state highways that Ming zones on but you know there's like like for me I route 70 is near my house where where I route 70 a significant portion of it has passing zones on there are intersections and that's a that's a higher speed higher volume road than talking well in hun Hunter County I could drive from White House station all the ways to Wells Road and the only passing zone I see is right there and that's about a 20 20 minute ride so I don't know what goes on in that area but Hunter and County I very seldom see passing zones at intersecting roads okay just so you I guess you answer my question but as far as I'm concern I think it's very unsafe okay thank you anyone else and state your name please in spelling and your address thank you hi Dr Joseph ricardi r i CCI a r Di and I live at nine Wells Road okay when I read a study or an article I see who's authoring it and who sponsoring it I'm sorry sir could you a little bit when I read a study or an article I see who's authoring it and who's sponsoring it your data I think is a little bit flawed you keep saying this is a senior citizen housing project it's not you only criteria have to be 55 or older to sign the lease and there's no on-site management so there's going to be a lot of people there did you do a study with data if everybody that lived there needed to go to work do you have any data for that in other words what he's asking is you use land use code 252 senior adult housing multif family what other land use codes would there be if it wasn't senior adult housing multif family if it was just multi family 24 units that's his question there it does have a separate land use code that's just a townhouse Community right that that would be and if there was no age restriction to it that's what it would call you happen to have the IC 11th Edition with you I do not hey do do you I would assume that the numbers would be somewhat higher than Landers C 252 yeah that's a fair assumption do we know he's going to ask how much higher what would they be well and I think not even not knowing that specific number off hand I mean it's they're still going to be lower than the office building I'd like to see a stud hold up hold up hold up let's ask our traffic experts do you know how much of an increase 24 tow houses would be over 24 senior adult housing multif family yes it's about double the the uh trips per unit for senior is about 0.25 per unit and for multi family it's around 0.5 per unit so basically we would take the the that says proposed senior housing if we said proposed tow houses we would double all those figures that's a ballpark way of doing it yes thank you okay thank you hi I'm Don Barnacle b a r n i c ke l and I live at three Wells Road question for the traffic engineer you said in your report the delays and line of sight for all movements are found to be improved When comparing the existing approved office use go slow go slow even though she's not here page page seven okay the delays and line of sight for all movements are found to be improved When comparing the existing approved office use and the currently proposed senior hous development can you explain how you're going to improve the line of sight line of sight yeah that I would say I mean that I would have to defer to the site engineer on if they're you know that doesn't stand for line of sleep it stands for level of service that L is level of service level of service oh thank you I I appreciate that uh question Mr DW I do have some images and uh would like to sort of display this for you want to show him and ask him questions about it yeah basically okay can I see the imag you want to take a break can't Taylor put that on well we want to see them first yeah he calling the meeting back to order so what we decided is the thumb drive is clean and how do you pronounce your last name Barnacle as in a barnacle okay Mr Barnacle instead of asking questions using his PowerPoint is that after the applicant finishes its case which I believe is after this witness is cross-examined unless you have someone else you're calling plan he's going to present now the question is going to be would you rather him present this since this is traffic related after your traffic witness before your planner or not so you guys can talk about that but let's go with anyone else with questions for the traffic engineer I happen to think myself the best time to do it is after they finished questioning the traffic guy have him because if you want to do rebuttal he's here tonight we'll open up just for the public comment on the traffic issue right and then we'll come back after that to to plan I think that's a good idea any other questions for their traffic expert before Mr Barnacle makes his presentation there are none Mr Barnacle come on up so I'm gonna swear in Mr Barnacle at this point and John can I put this on the screen too or yeah that's a good idea oh I think so you beat me to raise your right hand you swear or affirm the testimony you're going to give in this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do so I understand you have a PowerPoint that you want to present with some testimony yes I do okay we're going to put it up on the screen this is uh the comment from the earlier traffic study the proposed site layout provides safe and effective access to and from the subject property that's that's true um I have no no qualms about that however uh living as a a resident on Wells Road if we can go to the next slide can you just make sure you put that closer to your mouth little bit slow there we go so this is this is a picture taken at uh where the entrance to the proposed project would be looking at Wells Road Wells Road exits onto Old York from a cut next slide please if you look at the stop line where you're normally supposed to stop your car on Wells and you look westbound you got approximately 250 ft line of sight approaching uh to approaching traffic traveling East on Old York Road the posted speed limit is 40 miles per hour and that limits your decision time to pull out to make a LIF from Wells Road you don't only have to decide make that decision but you also have to get your car out in a cross that takes about 4.26 seconds if you are interested in how I calculated that yes we are yeah the it's you're taking 250 ft you're taking uh 40 miles per hour converting that to feet per second and then uh dividing that and you're coming up with your decision time and your pullout time to 4.2 seconds now the traffic engineer will tell you that that's certainly adequate anything above 3 seconds is adequate and I agree it is but we're making that intersection much more complex by putting the entrance to the apartment complex immediately across from Wells so there's less time if in terms of the posted speed limit is 40 but a lot of the traffic is speeding on Old York so it's traveling much faster and you know one 2 3 four you've got to pull out You' got to make that decision and then you've got to pull your entire car out if you're making a left bur and clear that first Lane next slide please looking to the uh in the opposite direction from the same stop line uh you're now looking East and you can note that the old York has a passing Lane that begins at the Ron Township sewage Authority entrance and run past Wells the wells intersection and through to the intersection with Dory DS that's where the passing Lane begins as such it presents an opportunity for impatient drivers to travel at speeds far greater than the posted speed limit through the Wells Road intersection it's not the impression given by the French pillo traffic study which states one lane of travel exists in each Direction and has a posted spe limit of 40 miles per hour that's an accurate statement I I totally agree with that that's not really a reflection of reality in terms of people traveling on Old York because they're usually exceeding that speed limit next slide please I believe that any traffic study should include the uh average speed of existing traffic walking down towards Three Bridges that's a shot looking towards Three Bridges the uh I gather it's Readington police posted a uh a speed counter and you can see uh the the 50 mil per hour in a 25 M per hour Zone uh and that's just down the the road from where Wells Road is most of the cars when I was uh taking these pictures most of the cars were exceeding 35 milph a lot of them were in the 50 to 55 uh speed from this counter next slide please I should have asked you all these pictures were taken by you correct yes that's correct okay next slide please so here's we go back to that first shot that I showed you of Wells Road exiting onto Old York and you can note the photographers Shadow there uh there are times of year when the sun is actually the the sun Transit is parallel to Wells Road and pulling out of Wells at the end of the day evening busy hour it's very difficult to see traffic when exiting Wells similarly for the people exiting the apartment complex it's going to be difficult for them to pull out in the morning busy hour because the sun will be in the opposite direction so it makes this much more complex in terms of making those decisions and really it creates a problem in terms of uh the the danger in going in and out that intersection next slide please there is an alternative in terms of the current and I and I realize uh this is probably not going to happen but there is an alternative if you were to put a complex in there is to move that driveway entrance down that does not you can see what I've drawn there it's a suggested alternative it does require a uh an easement easement thank you an easement across County land at the same time and it does not go to the private road which is the sewage authorities road we did talk to them Frank and I talked to them uh back in I think September uh and they would prefer not to have any traffic on their private road but you could put a road in parallel to that uh and you would avoid that uh essentially a four-way intersection uh in a passing zone and if you take a look at uh in looking at Google Maps uh and looking at Baron Township that will be the only four-way intersection in in a passing zone for a County Road in the township the your alternate access that it curves around to the right it's essentially 90 degree but with a curve correct that's correct and it's going over County Land yeah so you have you spoken to the county to see if I've not spoken to the county okay also the road as it goes out to Old York Road it's running parallel to what it's running parallel to the the sewage Authority road so both so both roads are going to come out basically on Old York Road at this almost at the same location very similar yeah I just don't want to ask yet is there in some other municipalities I represent I don't know I don't remember if it's in Ran's ordinance is there a road separation requirement I tell you what can do we have the ordinance book can you just look let him keep on testifying I had a question on that too you great point two two basically what you're saying is that there would be two Ro he's right there next to each other I mean you if someone wanted to make a left out of one and a right out of the other you'd agree that curve is not that's I I drive this road all the time that curve is very there's been a lot of accidents over there I think I think if you have two roads like that and the curve I don't know if that's going to be ideal but understood and and it it could be it could be pulled up uh closer towards Wells and and not necessarily immediately parallel most of the accidents that I'm aware of on that curve are from people speeding I take it the the object your object is you don't want a a T intersection you don't want their Road directly opposite Well's Road that's correct uh and of course if you did if you were able to to obtain an easement and and put in let's say a curve there you'd have that spill over parking which we had talked about in one of the earlier sessions that you wouldn't have people parking on Old York and you wouldn't have people parking on Wells uh during holidays and when you had other people coming in right this is slide seven so go to your next slide eight next slide so here's a here's a shot taken from approximately where that alternate driveway location would be and you can see that there's fairly clear line of site uh both in the Eastbound and in the westbound directions next slide we talk about the traffic counts and uh we understand yes uh an apartment complex will produce less traffic than the previously approved office complex but it's still going to be a dangerous intersection and there are other ways to develop the site produce good uh income for the applicant that would even be less traffic than the proposed senior apartment complex say that again there'd be other ways to develop that site have less traffic and still provide the very good income for uh the applicant the other thing that we have to think about is if it is truly seniors that are pulling out of there excuse me sir before what use would generate less traffic a solar farm so if you think if you think about if you think about a flat panel uh solar farm there five acres would produce approximately under the eyelid calculation about a gwatt AC power per year uh it would be adjacent or fairly close to the uh sewage Authority which is critical infrastructure you should come to our solar farm applications yeah oh I'm I'm I'm sure that there's there's issues there but lot of opposition oh yeah of course in this close to a neighborhood yeah of course of course but I I think in talking with some of the residents they prefer a solar farm over an apartment complex okay if you if you were looking at long-term power outage you want that sewage authority to have long-term backup the solo farm would be you're not going through the distribution Network to get there can I can I ask a question what what do you do for living I'm a professional engineer okay I'm not testifying not testifying as a professional engineer I'm testifying as understood understood but I I tell you what I I think you should have told us that because I think that's helpful okay I I didn't want to unduly influence you exactly exactly exactly my my area of expertise is in Wireless and electromagnetic resiliency uh hardening uh infrastructure right and someone was going to ask him oh what kind of traffic have what kind of traffic engineering have you done and he would have said none so we decided to testify as a lab I think he made the smart decision okay thank you all right based on this testimony can I go back and ask Mr did anyone have any questions are you done I'm I'm finished yes thank you um Mr gromberg I I have a question and I think it's for Mr grenberg I have a question based on this testimony and I think it's for Wayne I'm not sure it's a why we can we just do one thing first does anyone else want to make any traffic comments you can make like planning comments and everything after the planner but any traffic comments in addition to or supplementing what Mr Barnacle just said I think he got most of your traffic issues out there but if anyone thinks he missed anything say it now because I want to try to do this as efficiently as possible because the traffic witness is there so rather than wait all the way to the end no one else okay Mr gber I have a question I don't want to open this up to a working session it's that's his testimon that's his his comments put the road here put the road there put the road do you know why the driveway was put there in the first place I have assum I'm I'm assuming there's some justification for it sitting where it is now so hold on let me just he's been sworn in well the good news is you were sworn in and I don't even way I'm looking through my notes to see if you testified I testified as an engineer yeah did you were qualified as I'm just coming back after a few meetings I just oh that's all right yeah um you're still under o yeah oh and your and your engineering license is still in effect correct yes still current valid um I mean frankly my opinion is the location chosen is the one that got built because it's the safest one available I mean typically you want to locate d uh these these intersections to BTS because it limits the number of cross points that people have to look at and especially when you're talking about less trafficing but in any EV the you know that was an approved County driveway and that's where they wanted it to think that we put it over County Land which is preserved yeah wait that's preserved County Land that's a park I mean it was yeah preserved open space there is no scenario when when they did the original driveway plan did they had to go to the department the the New Jersey Department of County site triangles were established meeting their standards and it exceeds the minimum sight distances and it's probably the best location on that lot to from a safety perspective but the the the point is the the driveway is there it's been there for years and it was there it was approved to be there right correct okay that that was I had that question again I drive this road all the time I never I'm and I always say man that's weird it's got a driveway there there's nothing else there so but I think it was a good question because um and that was one of the things I was going to ask is that I don't think you want to have a driveway like layered because then you're you're not it's not directly across from you so now you're making it harder correct it's more dangerous yes I me we're always told to locate them opposite yes okay thank you okay any more questions concerns anything okay so do we want to move to the next yeah we're not gonna we're gonna go right through Mr Ingram but now he's going to be testifying as a planner and now you're no he was qualified as both I think originally wait so remember they've bifurcated the application they're only going for the use variants and Wayne testified as an engineer and was cross-examined as an engineer they've called their traffic guy now and he's been he testified and he's been cross-examined and do you have any Witnesses other than Mr Ingram left no but I would like to have our traffic expert wants to ask excuse the traffic expert if no one has any other questions for the traffic expert I mean you can do that I feel like traffic always comes up though um and Jay shaking his head yes so well I'm STIs okay okay then I'm good well was that so are you excusing the traffic guy or not I think we can't based upon what Jay's saying yes so you're excuse him yes I'm going to excuse anyone want to reverse that procedural he'll stay he'll stay he'll stay for it's more about if we happen to go to other meetings he have to come back but he'll stay for the rest of we just trying to get an idea of your testimony probably three pages okay all right plus questions plan planner saying three pages that's that's about 40 minutes okay I'm good I'm an engineer planner so I'm good that's good sorry more black and white good all right so um first I'll just summarize a little bit since it has been a while since we started slowly though and loudly try slowly and loudly it's for you Jackie um the subject property is in the O2 business office Zone and has been the subject of multiple applications uh the first was filed by the prior owner to create three Office Buildings which you've heard about uh under that application uh most of the improvements that you see there today were constructed and that includes the stormw features the county road improvements uh lighting utilities and Grading uh Landscaping was never con constructed um and unfortunately you know it was never forced upon that developer to install that over the last 20 years uh when it was it's been clear over that time that you know no buyers were interested um the former owner came in and he proposed um to convert those offices to senior housing um if any of you know John Aldrich the former owner you would not be surprised to know that he just got upset and left before ever hearing a vote on the application not surprising at all so true um and so that was never resolved uh as to what the you know the board's thoughts would be um since then there's been various interests on the project um but nothing has ever materialized um the only one that comes to mind is uh an applicant before your board who was running a Construction office out of his house um tried to buy this lot and convert this uh to to his Contractor Yard uh needless to say it never made it very far um but nothing has ever materialized and over that time the property has just continued to degrade and very little of what you have there is salvageable at this point um and that's where we are today um the property surroundings uh to the south and east are single family residential housing uh to the north and west um by other O2 Zone land and uh public um public property with the uh Sewer Authority um and fortunately uh our joining O2 parcel was acquired and preserved um and really the only other parcel in that zone is now the 3M property which is pretty distant from this so what we kind of have is a bit of an orphaned parcel here in this O2 Zone because the surrounding O2 is never going to be uh office it's going to going to remain as as open space um and again as to the north uh just north of that is the uh the mua's property in that P public Zone um there is a lot of reasons why the office partiel has been vacant uh for nearly 20 years and a lot of that has to do with its location um this is not a prime for office I mean it may be a county road but there's no other surrounding businesses and it's surrounded in a residential Zone off of major roadways um and obviously at this point in time postco there is not a strong office demand um there's you know a large amount of it all over the place that remains vacant which makes this even less likely to ever uh be developed in that capacity uh we should point out the other uses in permitted in the zone include the office scientific and Research Laboratories indoor Recreation facilities motels and hotels uh one thing thankfully is that warehouses were permitted here until 2023 when that was identified and removed so that was certainly a positive our proposal to convert this to 24 senior uh housing developments is before you um and that development would include uh the four affordable housing units uh as laid out uh in your planner memo um Can can you repeat what you just said uh we're proposing 24 Senior Housing Development units four of which would be uh dedicated affordable housing units yeah which what's the percentage percentage give you an exact one that's 16.6% and so why are you proposing 16% not 20% set aside our understanding is that that was the required number required by who typically I thought 15% was would be the required you know allocation for affordable housing well that might be typical if the town was rezoning it typical for rental would be 15% typical for sale would be 20% but since you are here for a use variance maybe an additional special reason would be even though these are rentals and not sales unit correct would be rentals yes yeah if it was 20% set aside how many units would you have instead of four you'd have five yes you discussed that with the applicant at all we have not no okay so if the board asked you to do you want to discuss that with the applicant they be willing to do the fifth unit keep on going sorry for the interruption uh so the reason I asked this would if this would had that set as side he would be in my opinion credited to the Township's fourth round of obligation which yeah that round has just started keep on going so the project results uh in a net decrease in impervious coverage as we will principally be locating this development on top of what was previously constructed um the driveway and the storm motor improvements which were previously approved and constructed uh could be reused and those are have been designed and installed to the to the county satisfa action um you've heard a lot of testimony about traffic and our conclusion is that we will be reducing the overall traffic demand from the site and our utility demands will also be uh reduced uh we have sewer allocation which we are not even using the full capacity of uh so essentially the property as designed and the intensity is designed to fit within the limitations of the site as it's already been uh been developed um we believe that there are many purposes of zoning that are furthered in this application as you just heard the principle one is is that we're providing these affordable housing units which would count towards your next round obligation and Ron like most other townships in the state has a a new requirement and it's a high one um we believe purpose a promoting public health safety and general welfare uh is supported uh the conforming approved development for the larger buildings was closer to the residences those uh buildings would have had loud HVAC units there would have been more traffic would have been more noise from dumpster pick pickups um more lighting than we need to propose for this development uh arguably I think the senior housing is is far more passive and more compatible as a residential use surrounded by residential than any of those other uses you heard that are permitted in this Zone uh purpose G providing space or variety of uses uh which in this case is the senior residential according to the respective environmental requirements uh as we stated the intensity uh of use and of size of the units and locations we're all chosen to fit within the confines of what was already developed and to try and match and slightly reduce the utility demands uh while utilizing everything we we could about the site I think certainly the way we've constructed this um was designed to fit within the environmental requirements um the only uh variance that we were seeking a c variants uh related to Mo the structures was the uh 63t sidey yard and that was done in an effort push this as far away from the residence as possible other than that all the locations the sizing coverage everything was compliant uh and finally purpose L uh which is an obvious one uh the purpose is simply to encourage senior citizen community housing construction um there's a shortage of senior housing in our area I mean everything that you see that goes up they've been filling it um there's there is a demand in the area um and and we think you know while this is a small development in comparison to that um you know we believe that the 24 units will provide a benefit to the community and provide that type of housing that allows people to stay in the areas that they have lived their entire lives when maybe they don't want to continue to M maintain a single family home um in terms of our negative impacts uh there's a couple proofs there the first is uh what our impacts are to the neighbors I think when you compare this use to the permitted office that was designed and approved or any of those other uses uh you heard me talk about um you know you have a a site that's you know been half built um it's you know it's it's degraded um nothing good has occurred there over that time um we would contend that the project only reduces any negative impacts versus what could otherwise be there um you know eventually everything gets developed um you might be having a different conversation if this was still a vacant you know untouched piece of land but it's it's been cleared it's lost its value it's got you know poorly degraded impervious surface on it something's going to go here at some point and this is probably in our opinion you know the lesser of all evils um we can't assume that land that's not preserved is going to remain untouched forever um that prior approval had larger buildings that were substantially closer to those neighbors it would have affected the views greater would have impacted the light air in open space uh more uh than what we're proposing uh there was more impervious which would mean more storm waterer run off there was more daily traffic there's more noise from those HVAC units um as well as you know having five times as many people visiting the site per day um there would have been more lights in the parking lot parking lots were closer to those residences um and you know again that would be un unmanned property you know at night with parking lots next to a residential Zone um and the long forgotten Landscaping that was never put in um in spite of the bonds with uh that existed would finally get installed in this scenario instead of the vacant birms that have been there uh over the 20 years uh I would say that hardly anyone would know you know if those trees were installed 20 years ago you probably would never even know this development would exist they could have grown to be a forest at this point um and all the other uses as I mentioned are more intense um the second prong of the negative criteria is what our impacts are to the town Zone plan master plan and ordinance um as to whether there's a substantial impact uh due to the omission of this use um I would argue that there are no substantial deviations uh since the much larger joining O2 parcel uh which would have at least put this in a zone of o2 property uh was preserved and again now you have this kind of uh orphan parcel here which would end up being the only O2 parcel you know that if it was developed in a conforming way uh in the area uh we have having a residential use surround us um makes us more compatible with that zoning uh the fact that our setbacks and other design standards are principally met uh with the only deviations being to improve the conditions um and certainly I think there's many aspects of your uh master plan that are furthered in the application um I'll start with what I looked at which which was your housing element uh it talks about supporting a diverse mix of housing uh and a wide range of choices on this sort of stuff anything that you're talking about the master plan just give me what your master plan is it the master plan is it the um the reexamination and what page would have been the re-exam I don't have that so I'll skip it and I'll just go to um what's actually just mentioned in your your planner's report of July 9th 2224 um okay what I'm I have a report I'll read from page 20 which was the ren Township master plan 2008 okay um let's just look at the first few items there uh limiting growth to existing sewer plan capacity we have the sewer plan capacity will be less than that limiting growth to the existing schools where senior development we're not adding school children uh limiting growth to the existing roadway capacities we're reducing traffic reducing potential for new single family residential development again this is town houses we're we're truncating that these aren't this isn't sprawl this is working within the confines of of the property that's as it exists uh number five uh specific speically permitting additional age restricted residential development that is the goal of your master plan um and some of the other ones there really I don't see much um uh other uh impacts particular to this development other than number nine reducing the amount of land zoned for industrial and office uses um where sewer capacity does not exist yeah okay but sewer capacity does exist for the prior appr we have it so you're saying the first five land use goals and objectives set forth on page 20 of our planner report you're saying this proposal is not only not inconsistent with it it's consistent with it yes that is my testimony um but you know certainly we're um meeting a lot of these goals um and as I said I I think that if we were a vacant property 30 years ago we would be making different arguments but we're here with the property as it exists today and in my opinion those positives uh that we can offer um to keep this from being any of those conforming uses is a benefit I think a lot of what you're hearing um you know what I hear is a general thought that this property should remain vacant but that's again not the reality so if we're trying to minimize the impacts and look towards what will keep the residential Community you know intact I see nothing better than residential use um and being that it's senior I think we're providing that something we need in the community uh that will have the least amount of impacts to all those other aspects that we talked about so again in my opinion the positives will out neg the way outweigh the negative and certainly again with the affordable housing that we would be providing and that we've heard tonight that we would be willing to increase um we would meet the burden of proof uh for the granting of the varant I I think you You' said um all all around it but um you haven't used the words of particular suitability you have an opinion with respect to particular suitability yes I I think that's I mean particular suitability is really what I was driving at with all those points you have a site that's pre-developed but Steve was right but you didn't say okay that's fair that those are the points of particular suitability the the way that the site has been predevelopment that we can utilize everything that's been put there um it's particularly suitable because it is this oneoff O2 parcel that is kind of out of character with the neighborhood that's in in essence what makes it suitable is that we can convert this to be something more conforming to its surroundings while utilizing all the infrastructure that's already been put into it already and and in doing so actually reduce what could otherwise be developed here I have no other questions for Mr Ingram okayy before anyone ask any questions what I want to do is I want to take Mr barnicle's PowerPoint which we printed in paper and make it exhibit objectors exhibit one1 just to have that in the record that's fine okay okay professionals have any questions okay can't really face you talk uh for your argument about the zoning and and not substantially impacting the zoning it's about from what I understand from your testimony is that because the site around it was preserved whereas the parcel may have been suited for being an O2 office if it was connected to the rest of that O2 Zone but now that it's of been cut off from that O2 Zone it's not as appropriate for office and it makes more sense now to be residential some to the surrounding properties correct because it it would essentially you know if if all of that other land was developed and it would be part of an office Community it would probably fit better but because now it's adjacent to preserved Farm it it it would stand out even more and it wouldn't draw people uh the way you could if you had a larger devel and could you further explain the sewer capacity how much would be used and how much would be left would that be returned to the Sewer treatment to allocate to someone else or is it not that much that it would be it's a minimal amount um it might be one edu left um we were trying to keep the um the uh units the same and keep the same blocks of units so there's there's a little bit left and that if this were approved any excess would be returned yes and then for the senior that actually utilizes less sewer capacity than say if it was a regular townhouse development yes so this is at the reduced uh requirements for senior we did have this reviewed by the MUA and they concurred with the calculations and it is the senior use that keeps that number down um which you know I heard some concerns at one point about well you know what stops this from you know turning into something else that's what does because we'd be approving this at senior we would only have at this point the capacity for senior so this wouldn't be a bait and switch where this becomes a non- senior community here's another question would you agree do a deed restriction that it has to be Senor housing yes I know there's been some questions rais about parking do you have any concerns about uh parking for guests um the fact that there is an on street parking per se in the development aside from the off Street guest parking yep I mean you know we do provide more than compliant parking um you know based on our EV credits we're required a 51 spaces so we have 60 um and that's also under the assumption under rsis that there's 2.3 spaces or 2.4 depending of whether you're a uh two or three bedroom unit uh of what you'd be required per unit um I think you know we the rsis standards were created for a reason and that's because that's what all the studies and the data have said a facility requires um we provide all the required uh on Street spaces uh or excuse me the ones that aren't attached to the to the home and driveway uh for guests um you know it it it meets those requirements and as a whole we you know we exceed the you know parking required you know by the RSI standards um we've tried to locate it throughout the development so it's uh so it's accessible I you know I think again those standards were created for a reason um and it's you know it's based on you know town houses it's not necessarily specific to the senior um but I think you know there's sounds like there's a little bit of an overestimation of you how much traffic you can expect I mean is it you know is it as common for people to have major holidays all their grandparents house where the grandparent ends up doing the cooking or is it just as likely that they're going to leave and go to you know the the children's house um you know the you can't expect that 24 people are going to come have a party on the same day I mean you know do excesses occur sure but I don't think you're talking about anything more than you would if you know five houses on on Wells decide to have parties on the same day where are they going to park they're going to park in the road I don't think you're going to see that here um there should be no need for people to be Crossing you know the roadway um but standards were created for a reason and we we meet and exceed them thank you anybody board members have any questions I'm sorry [Music] Jeff can you just confirm the uh the setback variant if that's being requested at this time you know I was thinking about that whether you know we're asking for the C variants uh now or deferring that to site plan I mean you know if it becomes a legal problem we'll defer to whatever the board prefers why don't you wait the site plan just iated yeah yep but you know we do think that that's a beneficial variance because it's protective I think we kicked that site plan at the last yeah okay but your testimony for the bifurcated use variant application is that the conceptual site plan you've shown would only require one C variance correct that's correct and when we come back for the site plan we're intending to present you basically the exact same plan that you have with no more than one C variant at this point yes well that's what I want to confirm because there we have I mean it's a setback variance whether that's a setback to the building and we have a setback to the well structure those are yeah I'm you know we're talking about a set setback back variance that's that's all so one one setback variance to to the setback how about setback variances to the northern property one because it's all in an effort to push it away from the residents okay okay are there any questions from anyone in the public for this witness you just state your name again sir thank krki uh fors Road New Jersey thank you um you bring up a lot of things about the the public and you're concerned about seniors housing you're concerned about the appearance of the property and would I take it maybe I'm wrong and you could challenge me why is it when all the other developers put in sidewalks in front of their communities and board questions about putting a sidewalk in front of your community you think you should be treated differently than other developers because apparently there's no concern for the people having a sidewalk when people on the board ask about recreational area or walkways or Pathways or things for the people enjoy for their enjoyment you say well you don't really want that because you don't want those people looking over at the properties where your parents live of your neighbors over there so you want to move the property this way to get them off your property line so when it comes to the people on Wells Road all of a sudden our concerns just seem to go by the wayside the people in the property you gotta you got to make this a question you could if you want to present that opposition to the application at the end you can but you haven't asked him a question okay why why do you feel that other developers have to put why do other developers put sidewalks in if you go look across listen his question is why don't you why don't you want to put a sidewalk and justify that why there shouldn't be a sidewalk here that's your question correct mean ultimately again that'll come up probably in site plan but I think as we testified previously you know none of the other developments including Linton Road or any of those you know residential communities they all had sidewalks waved for them and it was waved for this property when it was approved previously so we buil the sidewalk it is a sidewalk make a suggestion I think whether or not there should be a sidewalk should be part of the site plan this is a bifurcated use variant so the board's not going to if the board grants them the use variants they're not going to say you don't have to put a sidewalk game they're not going to say you have to put a sidewalk in they're going to kick all other issues other than whether or not to Grant the use down the road because they're going to have to file a preliminary and final site plan application because the board told them we're not going to hear your preliminary and final site plan application because you didn't show feasibility of water which they have to show before that so they have work to do and my advice to the board is don't consider whether or not to require a sidewalk until and unless a you grant the youth variants and B you have a site plan application in front of you yes correct you agree yes okay so instead of me asking is it going to be open yeah after everyone finishes asking them questions everyone can say their B I'll just do my open open statement at the end yeah a lot thank you all right anything else anyone else have questions for this witness everyone's going to get the chance to talk about everything other than traffic after the questions right you you ask planning questions you'll make they can make comments about engineering or planning but not traffic after Mr Ingram's cross-examination is completed hi again Joseph ricardi um you said you would agree to would need restriction to make it senior citizen uh housing right now from what I understand that the person signing the lease has to be over 55 and other than that how how do you plan to enforce the Steed restriction with no on-site management that's not a requirement I mean it's a board condition um it becomes a zoning issue if there's non-compliance but we're providing you know we will will be end up providing draft documents for the board to review that you know as to what the HOA and everything will require we already provided the Steve you're not you got to go into that microphone sorry we already provided the draft uh lease agreements that had age restriction the the Draft application document that had age restriction and we've committed to have the property D restricted as age restricted yes how are you going to enforce it with no on-site management that's my question there doesn't have to be onsite management to enforce age restriction so if anybody signs the lease they could have wherever they want live there no but if if it comes to the uh manager of the apartment that someone is violating any type of lease agreement for any purpose whether it's the age restriction or having too many animals or too many people or having loud parties or what generally happens where's where's the manager that's my question to answer the question about how do you enforce the age restriction I'm not talking about whether there's an onsite manager Mr Vell is the zoning officer he's not a roving zoning officer looking to give out citations generally and if I misspeak correct me he gets calls and complaints most zoning violations are the result of someone calling and complaining so if you had people living there seniors I would just I'm just going to speculate I'm not testifying that if people living there who are seniors see that someone somehow that are not seniors are getting in there they're probably going to be the ones that are either going to call who ever the off-site manager is or Jeff to complain about It ultimately you're looking right here Mr Vella he is the enforcer of site plan conditions all that sort of stuff that's the guy all right so all need your number I guess anyone [Music] else yes I'm Jo thrown of the for moral okay hold on first name Joel Joel and last name Throne can c h r o n e and your address sir I have a question no sir your address I'm sorry I didn't get it excuse me your address your address for Merl Road thank you now according to um you're having how many parking spaces on the property 6 the total number is 6 60 60 let me ask you this does the 60 comply with the rsis requirements if you have 24 units yes complies and exceeds okay go ahead ask your question so my question is what what does that comprise of how many guest spxs versus how many regular spots basically a requirement is to have 0 five stalls per unit as a guest spot that's publicly you know in in a in a stall that's not attached to the dwelling so the garage or the driveway the bulk so we meet that 12 the other 48 it's two per unit basically car in the garage and driveway okay uh is there any auxiliary or any of those sites that are going to be designated for um handicapped or is that just yes we're I mean the public stalls that are the part of the 12 will have uh I believe we have one uh handicap accessible spot because you're only required to have one for the first 25 the first 25 so in other words you would have at least two then just one because there's only 12 public spaces the ones that are at the the dwelling units don't count okay because I the the way I and again I the guest the public is going to have how many versus the people who live there are going to have how many 12 he said there's the Public's going to have 12 and that the people that live there are going to have 48 he said that each unit two so 24 * 2 is 48 and he said that the guest spaces are 12 and he said that is that a requirement from the residential site Improvement standards yes the 60 okay all right that's thank you sir Don Barnacle three Wells Road um I just I can't quite remember I think it was maybe the September uh meeting hearing um and we brought up the traffic issue separately we brought up the issue of uh sort of the uh you were relying on the groundwater Supply and somebody had asked you so this is what we this is what we did because they could not prove that water was feasible I gave advice that the board even if they wanted to take under the case law could not Grant site plan approval what they did was they said okay we're withdrawing our site plan application we're applying for the use variants only on a bifurcated basis they do not have to at this point prove that water is feasible but when if the board grants them the use variants they're going to have to prove that if they want preliminary site plan approval and if they want final site plan approval they're going to have to prove not only that it's feasible but they have it and show it on the plans thank thank you Mr Jill really appreciate the the insight there thank you no problem okay anyone else okay I have no other Witnesses so now it's time for the public to make I'm going to swear anyone in who wants to address the board why don't you start first your your name Frank DKI okay I'm going to ask you to spell it so slow that you've never spelled it so slow before because I haven't gotten it right yet tonight d d u m b r e s k i all right raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the comments you're about to make to the board will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes you're on I just want to make a rebuttal to what the engineer was talking about earlier um tell you a little bit about myself I I've been a union official most of my life I've always served others um when Mr Aldridge applied for a a permit to build the office so when Mr alge applied to the planning board for site plan approval to build the office site plan approval I was the one that brought up about the air conditioning noise I was the one that brought up about the burms I was the one that brought up about the Landscaping because I worked for Johnson and Johnson and I know a lot of the fs and concerns that neighbors had around our facility what's frustrating to me is when the engineers talking about being concerned about senior citizens being concerned about this being concerned about that and at the same token he's talking about he wants to move the project away from his property line his F his parents' property line in their neighborhood when people on the board bring up about having a recreational area walkways a little Park area place for people that live in the community to enjoy their property he doesn't want that he wants to keep the BM he wants to keep the Landscaping he wants to increase it he wants to keep them away from him my neighbors have never complained about anything being built there we complained about the road hazard we complained about well I shouldn't say complained we showed our concerns about safety and our road hazard to our community we showed Our concern about water uh for our wells we just we show concern about light shining into our neighbors properties and noise to our paper on our side all the improvements being made on his side that's where all improvements are made and he doesn't want nobody over there using he wants to keep them away as all we're asking for was we want to have more Landscaping in the front of the property we ask for some consideration for safety improvements to the road it's a passing zone I pulled out out of that road and had people passing and almost have a head on collision tractor trailers come down that road 50 miles an hour I know they're going over the speed limit there has to be some improvement to that intersection so anything that we ask he just can't see any way to make an improvement can't move that road can't make any improvements on this side all his concerns about him and it shows and and and the board should realize if he wants to build and he should make it a place that people enjoy have a place to enjoy they should be able to go out in their yard they should be have a a walkway around the property they should have a sidewalk other builders are all putting sidewalks what's a special he's special now the reason a sidewalk should be put there is because now we had a walkway along the road because Marsha at one time wanted to have have bike lanes and walk Lanes to the park the only place our neighbors can walk is in these open areas along the roadway so now there's going to be parking in front of that building because there's signs there that there's parking they're going to park in these if there's overflow they're going to end up parking in the walkway and then there's no sidewalk so anything we ask for isn't on reasonable nobody said don't build nothing not one person said we don't want you to build there everybody just ask for your consideration and I I find it appalling that you can't see where his concern is his concern is about 55 year old of people people being afford homes the property being unsightly his concern is to move that property away from him and to to to to benefit him and that's my feeling and again we we have ask for anything but a little consideration here for our safety for our enjoy and for the people that are going to live there for their enjoyment that's all I got to say anyone [Music] else I'm Joseph ricardi I just want to make a comment you going to swim in yep you swear that the comments you're about to make the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes just comment about the parking um just to give you an example my father's a senior citizen I bought him a new car he doesn't p in the garage because he can't open the door all the way and get out and use his Cane and what they're proposing with the parking on paper it looks great in in reality common sense they don't have enough of spots people are not going to jockey cars around and if you're marketing these to senior citizens or people with mobility issues they can't pull the car in the garage because they can't open the door all the way so right off the bat you're short many many spots the county has already made old New York Road no parking so where are these people going to park they Park on Wells Road they got to get out of their car walk up a hill cross what's essentially a three-lane highway and walk a couple hundred yards to their house they Park on Linton they have to walk around the block where there's no sidewalk in the D so this is just one of my conc concerns another concern I have is that there's a lot of vacant departments in in Flemington right now this is about them making money this has nothing to do with senior citizens this is not truly a senior citizen complex does everybody understand that this is just a the person signing the lease has to be over 55 there's nobody watching the store they and when they can't rent these out they'll just make the entire complex a low-income housing project they that's one of my concerns too um that there's no parking there's nobody watching the store and we don't know who's really going to take care of this that's that's one of my main concerns uh for the project along with the noise and the light pollution and other other issues that we have to deal with but the biggest thing I think is going to be the parking common sense you know if they can't use the they're not going to be using the garage they're going to be parking elsewhere where they're going to go it's a recipe for disaster somebody's going to get hit by a car or something or there's going to be an accident I think it's a you know that's my concern you're so you're saying you don't want them to build that I'm sorry you're saying you don't want them to build up I don't want them to what to build their application no no he's also saying he thinks senior citizens or people visiting senior citizens are going to have to walk 125 feet y to get out to park somewhere else and then walk in right you'd have to park across the street on Wells Road you have to cross Old York Road common sense if you can't pull your car in the garage to open the door all the way to get out stop for a second do you know what the width of these garages are that they proposing no but in any garage that I've ever been in okay well we just took a look so I can't testify let's have how wide's the garage what the plan shows that it's 11 I believe 11 foot6 something to the center line of the wall so you guys figured it's 11 feet wide yes okay is 11 feet I mean is 11 feet wide wide enough for a garage yes it's wide enough but you can't open the door all the way to so how wide would you want these garages if I mean I'm not aware if there's a handicap accessible standard for a residential garage but I don't think there is and reesus I believe governs parking spaces outside of a residential garage but let's assume what how why would you want these garages to be to well I think in most garages I don't know the exact dimensions but I in my own home I I have an oversized garage and I still can't open the door all the way that's probably maybe like 15 feet wide you want each garage to have to be 15 feet wide well yeah at least wide enough to open the door completely so a senior citizen or somebody with a Mobility car H is it is it two door these are onear garages or four car I mean the width the width of the car door can I can I ask a really simple question here are we talking site plan issue but I didn't want to cut anything else so just so I'm clear even um Mr dbras I think I said that right a lot of what he talked about okay just so you guys have to understand what we're dealing with here we're that's a site plan issue that's not before us right now okay so you have to understand that IC Al you could impose some conditions that they comply with when they come back for site plan just to be fair you know about it but isn't that a little hard to do though without it's very it's hard to do without having a site plan in front of you for example Mr D's argument is okay if you move it over here you need a variance you're making more room for over there but how do you do that without having the whole site plan in front of you I mean you started to do that when you had it in front of you and then they withdrew drew it because of their water problem so it's easier assuming that the board grants the use variants when they eventually come back for site plan you're going to say that you were very eloquent by the way yeah okay with with your concerns you're going to come back and say the same concerns at the time of site plane if they haven't already made some changes because they now know what everyone thinks but well let's see what happens but those those are site plan issues but if what you're saying is they increase the size of the garages to 15 ft you'd be fine with the board approving the development are you saying that no I'd rather you're not approve it at all okay right but I'm just saying common sense for the parking on paper it looks like you have plenty of spots uh but you know realistically if you can't open the door all the way to get out of your car try it when you go home tonight go in the garage and can I ask you something if someone is moving in there as a senior and has a walker and figures out that they're not going to be able to open that door all the way do you think they're going to want to move into that unit they may or may not or they may be in a situation where they have to go and if it's if it's a low-income housing assignment then they have to go there it's not assignment they they would apply to be on a corre on a uh but they're marketing it to senior citizens so if people show up and they have walkers nobody's going to rent it what are they going to do with the property you know well then the property is going to have an apartment building with no one renting the units I don't think they're not going to rent them I think they'll sectionate the whole place my my opinion anything else you want to say no sir thank you anyone else anyone else no do you have a closing argument very brief no I got to say something say it please use the microphone use the microphone be brief and slow I'll say go quickly um this is an excellent use for this unique piece of property there's uh a net decrease in impervious coverage we're providing five affordable units which is a credit to the township less traffic utility demands reduced and all of the ISS isues that are a concern are so plan issues and we are agreeing and have agreed to work with the board and and ra and address as many of those concerns as possible and you know the players here in terms of your the board of the applicants professionals and how we work with the board to try to address concerns of the public this is uh we've met our burden of proof with respect to a use experience for this very unique piece of property and the history involved in it and I can't think of any better use than what's being proposed for uh age restricted senior housing uh on this limited basis for this piece of property we would ask that you grant our us variance uh application and we will come back with before you with a site plan where we can talk about all those other issues and the nitty-gritty we tried to do it now but we we'll come back let me ask a question assuming the board grants the bated use variance application normally they would put a one-year time limit on coming back for the site plan are you going to be able to hit are you be able to come back within a year or not what's your water situation if we would love to do it within a year it's Our intention to come within a year if so you could always request an extension if you can't yeah we can if we're but you know it's Our intention to do it within a year we want to be here yesterday okay um but you know I okay I get it we would have to ask for an extension and we understand you don't come and one thing I would request if right now my understanding is the board does not even have a hydrog geology expert so I would request that the board appoint one so that when we come back somebody could actually review the port we would give you um because we realized when we were trying to look into this that we would have hit a roadblock if we tried to do that we're working the process yeah yeah just so you know the the township is in the process of retaining a hydro they have not okay they don't have it narrowed down yet now I'm done okay thank you can we close for deliberations yep okay um Can anyone start good I'll start okay I'm sorry and I apologize for being short with anybody this evening um we are here for the bifurcated use variants that's it and I agree a lot of people have concerns about the site plan and we'll get to that and I apologize if I um seemed a little frustrated that we were talking too much about that um I didn't explain myself very good that everybody has their concerns and I and I appreciate them this is an orphan property and this is a a good use for it um what I want everybody to understand is that the township has a master plan and we are trying and what what Wayne was pointing out there in Jessica's report was that the township tries to set guide guidelines ordinances whatever you want to call them to to to to make sure that our Township is fulfilling the master plan so I just want to read the five things that this property does fill according to the the master plan which is which is something we follow okay we didn't create it okay and that's why I want to just say why I would be for this application because again we're trying to as volunteers trying to fit development into the master plan and our ordinances so the first one was limited growth to existing sewer plan capacity they have the sewer plan capacity when you when you have housing for um people under 55 is different than over 55 so if this was under 55 that they would not fit the capacity correct Wayne correct okay uh limited growth to existing school capacity we all know how that goes and and and I think that's kind of clear that there would be no uh schoolage children in this area limited growth to existing roadway capacities I understand that's a concern I think this is the best use for this property um and again we can't expect this property to be vacant forever and I appreciate the gentleman saying that you're not expecting it to remain empty um po reduce potential for new reduce potential for new single family residential development again this fits and the the last one permit additional age restricted residential development so we are we are looking at those and and making decisions based on that we're not making decisions based on whether we like the applicant or not or whether we like the applic your arguments or not and I'm hoping that helps and thus I would be for this application so first of all I want to thank the neighbors uh to show the interest this is really good we really appreciate and you should be assured that we are listen and we pay attention to what you say a lot of your issues will come up during site plan and uh my advice and I know how Mr grber Works uh he's was taking very good notes and I hope that when we come back we make it easier and consider at least those things so that it makes the application more efficient please take that very seriously uh I also want to thank especially uh the traffic plan because that was a big issue and I want to I appreciated how you prepared and how well thorough you we and I also support specifically for use okay we haven't got to the site plan yet and we all were making a lot of notes so we'll keep reminding your concerns also but I supported from I want to add a couple of more things based on what chair woman said uh in the previous application we talked about the septic is going to be better so that's another Point why this is the right thing uh storm water as you guys know how the board and the township is about if I heard correctly uh that has been addressed better than other options and in fact there was a note Wayne you had said in the previous meetings about cleaner water because of the storm water system so that's another plus here uh we talked about hard surface today just to give you guys an appreciation flooding as you all know how bad it is these days in our Township uh this option makes that also a better alternative than all of the things which Cynthia talked about so I will support this application also I'll uh I just I guess we'll just go down this way um so I'll I'll just just and I join in um both comments being made I I would um I'm for the use application um I do want to I do want to thank the neighbors um and I also you know it's it's important for us when uh neighbors have issues to come here and actually talk and it's not you know I talk for a living but it's not always easy to come up here and talk um so I do appreciate that I do appreciate the issues that were raised I think they're site plan issues and I'm I'm assuming knowing um Mr gromberg I'm sure he's going to go back and have a conversation with his with his client and and to understand that there are some concerns there and that will be discussed at site PL um I really appreciate the followup on the traffic um I thought you know the fact that you you know your expert went and looked the uh the videos was very helpful because it gives us comfort and I'm glad that Jay was able to look at the the videos and I'm glad you um were able to do that U provide that to him um I'm not I'm very sympathetic to the to the traffic issue of you know the concern of the speeding and and some of the um the accents I don't disagree with you that road is people don't go the speed limit um there are accidents there I know I know several people who've gotten accidents on that road the only thing I'll say to you is that we can't control and the applicant can't control someone who is going to go 75 on a in a 50 or whatever I think it's a 40 actually um we can't that that's not something that they can control um so they went by you know the the the criteria posted limit they went by I'm sorry they went by the posted limits exactly and and that's what they're supposed to do so um I I don't I don't I have a better comfort with the traffic now with the sympathy of what I know that road looks like in in reality um but I do think that based off of what has been said and what I've said here um I would be for the use application I agree with what my colleagues have said um as long as the restrictions are made admit I agree with application anyone else Jim you're up man anything okay I happen to this is an excellent project for this property I've lived on in Ry Township for 42 years and drove by that thing that pie of property in both directions many times many times matter of fact I lived in the Middle Run development and I wondered why that thing was vacant so long could never understand why it would be an office location for an office occupancy but in any I think this's a great project I we should be doing more things like this to keep our senior citizens in town after living here this long I don't want to leave but many people are leaving because they can't afford to stay here but if they sell their house and rent the rest of their lives then be better many cases so I will vote for this you very you yes I to will uh in support of this application I think the legacy of the office zoning really doesn't apply anymore given the changes that have t taken place in the open space preservation that's happened around it um and it also advances our master plan goal of more affordable housing and senior housing I vote Yes as well um I don't want to reiterate what everybody else has already said but I will say um to the residents who showed up today um it does matter that you show up we do listen to what you have to say and there have been instances um I'm also on the planning board where we have denied applications based largely for many reasons on What the residents have had to say so I want you to know we do listen to you and we do care what you have to say uh one other point Jim you said you've lived in the township for 42 years I'd like to point out I've lived here for 43 [Laughter] years genetics I guess all right looks like we need a motion yep can I get a motion to approve this application yes second yes James you going to Second it okay can I get a r oh no no alternate I can't vot someone I'll second great thank you can I get a vote thank you Jim yeah we'll take Brandy chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes Vice chair Mr R dumi yes Mr Randy block yes Mr Steve fario yes Mr Jim Ferrero yes Miss lorett ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes be 410m just all right Steve I want we got one thing left to do so go I'll get out of here you very the board members um I don't know if you know we kind of Lie to our other board member so the one that's missing tonight Who's eight and a half months pregnant okay we lied to her and said there's going to be a closed door session at 10 o'clock okay I just texted her she knows we're going to text her again and then we're going to um she's over here thinking G to close the meeting yeah we're going to close the meeting everybody that want please and then we can surprise her with what we we just make a motion to adjourn can I get a motion to adjourn all in favor