calling to order Zoning Board of adjustment R in Township New Jersey regular meeting April 18th 2024 the notice requirements of the open public meetings act may have been have been satis Satisfied by the placing of a notice in this of this meeting on the Bolton Board of at the municipal building filing same with the Township Clerk and transmitting same to hun County Democrat The Courier News The Star Ledger and the Trenton Times Roll Call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer here Vice chair Mr rul DJI here Mr Steve fario M has be excused Mr Randy block here Mr Jim Ferrero has as to be excused Miss lindsy cool brel here miss lorett ktina here Miss Donna Drews here Mr James Miller here board professionals board attorney Mr John drill here Township planner Mr Jeffrey fella here oh excuse me how about board engineer Taylor vaugh board secretary here um uh board engineer Mr aesh Dary presid uh board sonographer Miss Jackie clap and all other board professionals have asked to be excused can I get a motion to approve the absence of Steve Faro and Jim farar I'll make a motion I second great roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr rul dami yes Mr Randy B yes Miss Lindsay cool brel yes Miss lorett ktina yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes okay moving on to comments announce announcements I have an announcement or a comment um so we completed the Land Development ordinance revision uh simplifying and improving and modernizing monitoring the township ordinances the committee met for nine months with our planners Jeff Bell and Jessica cwell with representatives from the planning board and the board of adjustment I want to thank the volunteers who volunteered and worked with us on that it was presented at the township committee uh on Tuesday for their consideration and review and hopefully their approval we look to clarify definitions looked at updating and monitorize the wherever possible some examples are storm order management small businesses especially around the in-house inhome businesses in the residential area housing types uh for the Aging population as such and my favorite Corner properties where a prop an application has two front properties and need special variances hopefully allowing for the reduction of required variances for relief for our community also we had the opportunity uh to inform the township of the number of applications we see annually between 32 and 35 which is approximately four times what other townships see which other Township Boards of adjustment C correct all right moving on to the meeting minutes we have uh meeting minutes from March Mar 7th 2024 anybody have any changes or additions hearing none can I get a motion to approve I'll make a motion I second chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Miss rul dami yes Mr Randy block yes Miss lindsy K burel yes Miss Lor ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes okay uh meeting minutes from the board of adjustment meeting on March 21st 2024 any changes or additions hearing none can I get a motion so moved second M call chairwoman Miss Cynthia schaer yes Vice chair Mr dami yes Mr Randy block yes Miss Lor ktina yes Miss Donna Drew yes okay moving to the applications for this evening the first application Bo case number 07202 3 Katherine jakowski block 77 lot 5 268 Old York Road minor subdivision with a d variance would you like me to read the letter but who wrote The Letter Steve gr gromberg yeah why does Mr gromberg come up and let's have him thought that was a [Music] test and why don't we have him read the letter because I have a feeling some board members may have some questions because this was re rescheduled with either a Time extension or a dismissal without prejudice so let's have Mr gromberg read the request first and then see if there's any questions for him sure dear Taylor uh in the wow that's bad in the I am forwarding this correspondence to the board in connection with the above matter as the board may recall this matter was previously scheduled for February 15 2024 at which time this office had only recently been retained the board adjourned the scheduled hearing of this matter to April 18th 2024 one of the issues that needed to be resolved was the creation of a driveway plan to provide continued access to the neighboring property owner it is my understanding from my clients that agreement has been secured for that access and the plans are being finalized for resubmittal to the board upon resubmission I will request a professionals meeting with both Mr Bella Mr drill and Mr Bardo which I spelled incorrectly to discuss a potential jurisdictional issue we hereby request that the hearing on this matter be continued from April 18th 2024 to a meeting date in June we hereby extend a time period for the board to act from the previously granted time period through the end of May to the end of July we will provide new notice of hearing for the new date that you provide thank you for your courtesies very juler me okay so before the board ask questions what type of jurisdictional the application was for minor subdivision with a devarian so explain this jurisdictional thing that somehow it wouldn't need a Dev variance yeah and we have revisions to the plan um that may make it so that we don't require devarian relief exp can you explain what type of revisions would eliminate it would be two um Lots with minimal Frontage but otherwise conforming so it my position would be that there would be two c variances as opposed to any D variance relief so it wouldn't be a backland lot correct and there'd be a common driveway listen and that's why I want to meet with you and Mr Bardo but until I have a plan that I can say this is what we want to submit and it's otherwise conforming with the lot circles and the storm water issues that were raised before I was even involved what would be the problem with just dismissing this thing without prejudice and when you get your stuff together you submit a new application either here if it if this board has jurisdiction or the planning board if they have jurisdiction because if you tell me that it's um that you disagree that we do need devarian relief then it's then I'd have to start all over again before this board where it's already pending before this board yeah but the plan is I'm to give you an update I spoke with our engineer today who promised me that he would have it no later than Wednesday so I can get it to you next week we can schedule a meeting the following week between you Mr Bardo Jeff and Eric rup myself maybe Beth mcmanis if need be and talk about it um we had previously extended the approve the time period for the board to act through the end of May yeah so the board may have questions but it seems to me from what you're saying that we're going to need an extension to at least August 31 and if that's what you need that's what you've got I mean I you know we've extended through the end of July because that was the time period that had already extended I understand so see if the the board has any questions I do have a curiosity question I think they were here sometime in October and we had a discussion October 2023 correct yes so the Curiosity thing is what happened in 6 months why did it get to this point I can't tell you what happened from October until February because I wasn't retained until February so in the time period that I was retained I've moved this thing along as best as I can in order to get that common driveway ease um plan agreed to by the other property owner and um the plans revised in order to come up with this this suggestion so I i' I've been involved 60 days so you're saying the applicant basically did nothing from October until she retained you no I don't know what was done by that time I don't know to what extent there were discussions and plan revisions or anything because again it's up to the board but my I'm most interested and if this thing is going to be rescheduled that it not be rescheduled to any particular date because the plans currently on file are not approvable right and that we the board just get an extension to August 31 they' have to submit something they have to Reen notice in any event I agree yeah just for closure Jeff foror did they approach you for the last four right no no revisions were I not I have not received any correspondence except for Steve I have not received any correspondence about any missions approaching in the works or anything like that yeah okay but now that they have a professional things should move along yeah and we're we're you know again I spoke with Mr rup Narin today and he promised me to have it by Wednesday but he promised to have what have the plan reflecting the the common driveway easement the relocated lot lines the relocated lot circles the storm water management in order to be able to show essentially that their only variances that we would require would be C variances for Frontage and hold on hold on the D variance is because this thing was a backland lot is that correct that's correct right so explain even if you had easement for a shared driveway is there still a subdivision involved there's a subdivision involved but it would be two lots that have minimal Frontage as opposed to one lot with a backland lot right but is the house are the houses going to be next to each other or is the new house going to be behind they're they're both going to be flag essentially flag Lots so instead of a 50 foot microphon so instead of a 50 foot they're each going to be about 25 correct that was the initial proposal that Eric had before it got changed to what was presented in front of the board okay but now I need to come back and talk to you and and to the two Johns to show that that's not a backl let me ask you this what the initial proposal for the two 25 foot Lots each had Frontage but the D variance is because there's already an initial backl lock right so look think you guys can talk to us but what the initial prop that sounds like the initial proposal which was still backland lot so don't be shocked if it's still a backland lot and when listen listen when this thing comes in it's going to be a new application because it's going to be substantially different than what's now all the time periods it's going to be reviewed for completeness the more I'm well wait can I can let me participate a little bit if if we have a meeting and you indicate that you don't um agree with legal arguments then the applicant still has a right to continue with its proposal as it had been and if that's the case then if the board denies they still have rights with respect to that that's that's true so it it's not necessarily a true application and we need to meet to discuss this is the point so what you're saying is it's a possibility this other proposal you want to hear from the the attorney for the board of adjustment and the attorney for the planning board but you might keep the proposal as is depending on on what you hear correct okay yeah all right and that's that's the purpose of having a meeting with both board I understand that issue discuss I don't have a problem as long as this thing's extended to August 31 as long as it's not scheduled for any hearing until it's settled what they're actually proposing and they and they do notice that's fine anybody have any objections anyone have any other questions also while he's here on this application okay Jeff you have anything no question okay so you're extending till August 31 correct that's correct and there's no scheduled hearing on this application that's correct and they have to Reen notice before whatever hearing is established correct correct all right and we don't need to vote and right there's no vote you don't need to do anything okay moving to the next application boa case number 01-2020 applicant is Doughboy Inc location is block 16.01 lot 60 164 Highway 31 applications for a c variance for generator placement within required principal building sidey yard setback of 20 ft guess what we have a letter what a coincidence we have a letter here yeah from Mr kber yeah why don't you read that one also dear Taylor I'm writing in response to your email requesting the status of the above application which is on the agenda for for Thursday night's board meeting on behalf of my client we are respectfully requesting the application be adjourned without the need for further notice of same so that my office May complete a review of the material received in response to our Oprah request and then subsequently meet with Township planner Jeffrey Bella to discuss his review of the application with respect to his concerns of any additional relief that may be needed in the event that after meeting with Mr Bella additional relief is required we would then Ren notice the hearing we extend the time period for the board to act on this application through the end of July 2024 please let me know if you have any further questions or wish to discuss thank you very jullys me okay so on this one what documents what what was the oppra request for and what did he what did they send you you you will recall the the last public hearing there were questions regarding what permits or approvals may have been granted previously um either from a zoning permit or building permit in connection with additional improvements outside of the generator that was reflected on the the the survey um I did do an OA request for all that information and we're in the process of reviewing that see they responded to the opah request you got respond to the oah request and I'm reviewing it and then I want to sit down with Jeff to to talk about what additional relief we actually going to be required so how much time do you think you need because this one we should adjourn it to a date certain so you don't have to Ren notice unless you have additional variances right and it might actually depending upon what we say it eliminate a different board right but um okay but what how much time do you need I I I need to go into may obviously okay yeah second meeting in May maybe that gives me time to notice let's see what do we have on the agenda sir you have two other the draft of our schedule for May the May 16th one you have other applications scheduled um we already have three on there so it's more looking like June unfortunately first first meeting in June no it'll be June 6 okay so if it's adjourned to June 6 then I want to get another extension out to August 31 not July 30th granted okay okay so anyone have a problem with this hearing on Doughboys being adjourned to a date certain which would be June 6 no so let's make an announcement to hearing first of all is anyone here in the audience on Doughboys which is located at 164 Highway 31 no so the hearing on Doughboys is going to be adjourned to June 6 2022 no need for further notice and the4 huh you said 2022 oh I'm sorry June 2024 four we got 2022 on the on the brain for some reason no need for further notice and the applicant has agreed to extend to August 31 correct correct okay thank you very much all right next application is Bo case number 08 d224 applicant is Joe an Joe Ellen Hennessy location is block 77.0 one lot 475 daily Road applicant is for a c variance for constructing a pool within the 15ot setback right up to the table of an accessory structure before we get started we have three remaining applications we're going to try and be fair we end at 10 o'clock that will give each application approximately 50 minutes if you run over and you want to wait and hopefully that we that the last application doesn't take that long you are free to do so good evening good evening um so I'm here requesting okay so yeah that's better yes much better thank you okay so I'm here requesting a c variance for my um backyard rear P patio which surrounds my newly constructed inground pool uh so the problem is that um I am 12.78 fet from the rear property line where I am required 15 ft from the rear property line okay so let me get people who are going to that participate sworn and I believe that's just the applicant and Mr velli am I correct that's correct okay both of you raise your right hand and do both you swear or affirm the testimony you're going to give in this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do I do okay spell name yeah so can you spell your name for the record sure it's j o e l l e n last name Hennessy h n n SS y okay and Jeff for the record you don't have to spell your last name but um give your your relationship to the board I'm Township planner and also the board uh planning exp okay now since you're not represented you could either just tell them what you want to do why don't you tell them what you want to do they're gon to end up asking Jeff what happened and then there's going to be a discussion and they're gonna ask you questions and blah blah blah blah blah okay so what I want to do um it's a in other words put it this way you want the board to Grant you as I understand it a setback variance to allow what's been installed to remain exactly and it looks like the corner of the patio around your pool is 12.78 feet from the property line instead of 15 feet which is the ordinance minimum correct correct okay that's the application so can we go over how that happened want me to answer that you could start okay um so my original plans um from the pool company uh the design which were submitted to the office I think um The Patio was maybe a few inches over um and the pool company said that they were not sure whether that applied to the pool itself or the paper patios as well um yeah I do you need further explanation okay I kind kind of do this all the time don't they is this a brand new pool company hold up which pool company did you use um I used the pool boss they're in Bergen County so they this is probably far for them to come the pool who the pool boss pool boss John I do have the copies of her permits if you want to have those as ex pass thank [Music] you okay so an application was made for a zoning permit first yes okay and you signed the application for the zoning permit correct yes is this what your this what you're handing out yeah okay so the zoning permit I'm looking for a date so it was there's a date in the upper leand corner March 13 2023 where you're where you signed there's there's no signature but I assume that you submitted this on March 13 2023 looks like it and did you fill out the this thing or did the pool company fill out the pool company filled out this part but I did sign it okay and then there's a plan attached to it so Jeff tell me on that plan because it's very small does that what does that plan show so on that plan it shows the proposed pool location with the patio and a dimension to the pool itself not the pool patio and when I scaled when I scaled the plan to the patio it came out to be less than 15t okay and that's why on the bottom of the zoning permit you checked off denied you dated it March 14 2023 yes and so is this your writing down here look that's mine yeah read what you wrote who with pool patio shall be at least 15 ft from the property line please include dimension in compliance with 15ot setback and to the patio Okay so what happened then uh so then we resubmitted um with it um with the required distance from the setback and it was approved okay so is that this other thing no that permit was not provided it was provided within a week and I approved it okay and what did that plan show it showed it was by the same same engineer uh and it showed the same layout but with a a layout with a step back at 15 ft to the patio to the patio yes okay what happened then so once the pool was constructed um and the the patio construction guy uh I guess the um said to me this is dangerous because you don't have any walkway and you have small children um so the way that the pool was designed was like modern with this little Infinity Edge and it um and so the the I guy said to me you should have more more um pathway around the pool so that you don't have a tripping Hazard for the kids and quite honestly I completely did not even remember um that I needed that I would be encroaching on the 15 feet if I said yes to that you would have thought he would have known that um but um you didn't so and he works here all the time so I said yes and we laid it down and we added I think yeah like two and a half feet so that there was a walkway sorry okay so um we ended up adding like two and a half fet which put us over um the 15 ft um and then I didn't realize that I had done that until Jeff called me and said you're over and I said what um so that's why I'm here that's the case can the patio guy come back and cut the corner off he well I don't know if it's just the is it just a corner just a corner we we took a look if you cut like a triangle of maybe two feet off that patio in the corner we believe that you'll then be in compliance okay so it's not the whole length of walkway the corner by the fence okay yellow line that I drew that's eyeball that's approximately 16 set back okay the planet shows 4 build we figure that that line cut off the triangle you're done ask I brought an engineers and an architect scale that's a scale drawing I think [Music] it's the 20 scale so I'm going to give you see what you come off draw 15 foot on that thing and see how much of a triangle would have to be cut off to comply so can I just ask a basic question because my fence is actually further than that corre um so the fence is allowed to be within the 15 feet and I back up to woods and the neighbor behind me has no issue with the patio the way it is oh you can still go for the variant but the problem is you need for the board to Grant this yeah they need either hardship and financial hardship doesn't qualify so this is not going to be a C1 hardship because money under the cases that's not hardship yeah it's just money yeah the other type of variance is called a c so a C1 is a hardship variance it's called a C2 benefits versus burdens variant so there needs to be some benefit now if you had to cut it all the way to the pool you can say the benefit is safety but if all you have to cut off is a triangle two feet to comply I don't know what kind of C if they don't have a C1 or a C2 reason and if they granted you the variance that just open up anyone who comes in instead of asking for permission they come in do their thing and ask for forgiveness so they even though everyone feels bad don't get me wrong I can tell because I know these guys look at their faces now they're smiling because I'm saying that but they feel bad but they can't Grant the variance because they feel bad what have you come up with how much do you think they have to what kind of triangle do you think would have to be nipped or cut so there's also two different pavers there as well there's a border around the pool and then there's that you can see it in the picture put it this way so you could take out more if you want and then put it back to to do your aesthetic thing but just no pavers closer than 15 ft would eliminate the variant you wouldn't have to come here I wouldn't have to draft a resolution you wouldn't have to pay me to draft a resolution well you've already got a $1,300 estro so yeah you might even get some of that back 3 feet and 4 feet going in either direction right but what does that leave her for kids to walk around have five you still have five feet from the pool uh are you saying that that patio is more than 5 feet wide well at that corner because on either side it's 5et but if you if you take it from the from the point of it you still have the 5T because it's listen if the triangle gets cut off you're telling me she still has about still yeah it's your call but it sure seems like this is the easy way out of this thing can you the easy way out would have been doing this like two months ago before I went this yeah I Jeff can you bring that plan down and show her what you're talking about [Music] pict oh so the it's not Square in the back the line itself okay but see aesthetically there is a border that I pay for that goes around the edge of it I so you're going to redo so instead of just having the two foot you could have more of that taken out and then have whatever put back you know the Border back with the border border back that's Aesthetics yeah that will cost you more money but but do I get the $1,300 back then I can use that towards the put it this way the only escro the only fee you have to pay is I I took a half hour to review this before the meeting and however long it took here I don't have to write up anything you it's uh 7:30 you can go home and then what I need to another as built survey to then re because that was also correct it's cost me you know hundreds of dollars afterwards to do then multiple surveys right but that's why they asked for as built surveys to confirm but then I also had to go back to the survey company and pay another $300 for some other table that we needed and you know multiple it's like three surveys I there's nothing else I can say yeah we're we're really concerned about setting the presidents that because it just because to me it doesn't seem like this is we need to protect the entire neighborhood right that's our role right yeah so really apologize for this but you see the guy behind you I'm just joking he's probably making notes and he'll come up with 10 other requests tomorrow the other thing too is you submitted plans the other thing is you submitted plans that showed no sidewalk behind the back edge of the pool right um and and affirmed that that's what you were going to build and you know it looks like from your design your stairs are there and so you know it it just we we have to make sure compliance with our our regulations and I think actually if you're sidewalk guy does this all the time he should know better and no no but what she's saying is she got sa Bergen County Pool Company well no that wasn't your paper guy right that was not my paper guy I don't know why here my paper guy's here yeah I guy was from here yeah Hartman Landscaping well Mark Hartman yeah I think so he Ela does um I would I would talk to them about I would talk to them about trying because I can tell you that that he knows okay maybe he get some money back maybe they'll do it for free you're going to have to ask him and tell him that by him doing this no he knows that I've already complainant about it but um I didn't understand that it was a corner I thought it was more of the the if I understood it was a corner I probably would not have done this whole thing for the last like two months um obviously I don't have an attorney so the amount of paperwork and the amount of time I had to do to submit this um was extensive um you know I'm single parent i y you know so it it has been significant on my part to do to even apply for this um after you know a year and a half of building the pool itself which was you know no treat either um so had I known it was just the corner I may not have done this but I was thinking that it was a safety situation to go down to you know uh six inches of of Border um because of the two kids that are going to be running around there so it um I think the communication probably could have been better on my part sure with my patio guy but also I didn't realize that's all that needed to be cut down yeah but what I'm suggesting is talk to the patio guy because you might get that corner cut for free I will get the corner cut for free yes and and redone with your nice border my's gonna give me the last two months of time and time from work I took off to do I understand I understand but it it the patio guy knew or should have known in my opinion I can't say I agree but now I'm in the situation I'm in because he didn't know and I was not paying close enough attention but I I don't buy he didn't know okay whatever so you think he was just trying to make a few more bucks from a large I'm not say I'm not saying anything I'll say it you think that's the case should know better I better but I mean the the the border is five fet wide right your your patio is 5 feet wide yes correct yeah okay yeah we measured it yeah that's significant usually it's an apron is what three feet Jeff what's your experience with pools it's it's less than five because I had the same deal three feet oh I went five feet okay well that's great looks great I there's we're Limited in what we can do and and believe me the frustration is I I I understand you're not the first Pool Patio case that the board has heard in the last four years right okay put it that way yeah and this unfortunately it doesn't happen most of the time but it happens more times than it should yeah and our frustration is we can't help you and the same thing is we spent time looking at your appli looking at it so so it's a frustration on all parts and believe me I wish I could say yeah this uh we do empathize with you but Jeff where's the thing where you did the cut the corner let's make that exhibit board exhibit one B1 and why don't you scan that and email it to the applicant tomorrow she could bring that again I'm assuming that you're going to want to do this if you don't you can still proceed on tonight with the variant well that doesn't seem to make any sense since you're telling me you're not going to Grant it she said that it doesn't seem like it makes a lot of sense because it doesn't seem like to her the board's going to Grant it well we don't have jurisdiction to Grant well no no no you have jurisdiction excuse me you need a legal reason corre to Grant it you can't just to gr you can't Grant it to cure a mistake there's cases that say they can't just grant a variance to cure a mistake this is look this is a mistake totally a mistake yes completely however um I was under the impression it was not really as big of an issue as it seems to be right now and was not likely to be denied so so you're surprising me right now otherwise I wouldn't have done all of this just for the record I did not say that this was going to be approved no no you did not say that you got to speak up there I did not say that this was going to be approved and in fact when I denied this Foundation location there was a distinct conversation of whether or not you were going to remove some of Theo and you said that that was going to be expensive so then you wanted to go in front of the board so well this has turned out to be just as expensive if not more expensive so at some point at that point I decided it was more of a safety um situation that I was willing to spend the money on to do this because that was cheaper okay so B1 is going to be the pool ASU survey marked up by Jeff Bella can I see B1 B1 B1 is in board one it's not an applicant to exhibit that would be A1 this is B1 if there was an objector it would be o1 okay do me a favor I see the like make a note on it or something so when she brings it back to Mr Hartman or whoever they know what they got to do cut the corner of patio so that no portion of the patio is closer than 15 feet to the property I'll I think I'm going to need exact uh inches yeah no no he's not going to tell you how many inches you have to cut off he's going to mark up this plan to show cutting the corner and telling it that that's going to be between you and your contractor you guys you can't put that on him to on this you know scaled plant to tell you how much you got to cut off he can show you what it would look like and he's going to mark that you got a cut off and no portion of the patio can be closer than 15 ft to the property [Music] line no Jeff you did not tell me it was to be approved but you told me you did not see this being a [Music] problem which seems unfair just saying listen in Jeff's defense he doesn't he doesn't speak I for the board this is so Jeff look B1 with today's date on it and the note says cut corner to corner to the patio compliance compliance with the setback 15 ft required so I'm going to give this to the board secretary scan please email to M now have to say either you're going on even though it's pretty clear I think what they're going to do unless someone tells me that I'm wrong and no one is or you would then just say that okay I'm going to withdraw the application and I'm G to cut the patio well I guess that's what I'm going to need to do if I'm not getting approval for the variance she she's saying that's what she's going to have to do but she doesn't think she's going to get approval for the variance so let's why don't we say this the application is going to be dismissed without prejudice okay just in case there's some curveball what does that mean that means if you ever had to come back you still can if you had to file another application which I know at this point you're thinking you're never coming back to this point your life my god really seriously I think I'm never coming back I know I know so just a quick question John if we if we if we do that when she gets the decision from her contractor and she no longer needs a variance then that's why you're dismissing the application without prejudice you're going to dismiss it right should be if she wants to close it and hopefully get some of the escrow back if if she withdraws the application yes I put in my you know my time tomorrow it's now been a half hour here half hour before so it's an hour so you yeah so my the bills from my office go out the first week of the following months which would be May so she could get her escrow money back probably by the end of May okay correct all right and do it this way if she withdraws the application we'll note in the minutes it's dismissed without prejudice so we don't even do a resolution dismissing it without prejudice just do a verbal motion so you're going to withdraw I'm going to withdraw someone want to make a motion to dismiss without prejudice and make sure this gets into the the minutes sove second vote please chairwoman Miss Cynthia Scher Vice chair Mr ass dami yes Mr Randy block yes Miss Lindy K bral yes Miss lorett ktina yes Miss Donna Drews yes Mr James Miller yes okay and then the board secretary is going to email that to the both of us tomorrow sorry about that yeah I was made to do something for no reason which cost me a lot of time and money all right next application Board of BOE case number 11- 2024 applicant shesh Cala Park CW apologies location block 44.0 2 lot 26 24 Tiffany Drive application C variant for primary structure setback and exceeding the permitted imper impervious coverage I want you guys good evening good evening Steven Gruenberg on behalf of the applicant um and sues kalupur call and the property is 24 Tiffany Drive and it's block 44.0 lot 26 the applicant had received prior approval for a building addition to allow for uh an impervious coverage variance and subsequently there was a resolution dealing with the shed variance as well that dealt with the condition in the original approval for impervious coverage um during the construction phase um Mr I'm gonna say suesh because I can't keep saying KAC that's okay um it it had been determined that I'm going to let him testify as to the specifics of what happened during the construction but during the planning phase it was noted that uh utility easements and or utility lines um required a reconfiguration of the floor plan the uh building was constructed primarily with a new foundation with that um squared off in a smaller uh addition than what was originally proposed but squared off and then when it um the framing had been being performed Mr Bella noted uh that the uh he had been informed that we're encroaching in the side yard um from where the building had been pretty much constructed already um and that that might trigger an impervious coverage variance they put a stop work order M uh sues has been working with Mr Bella stop uh work they allowed certain things to continue uh to be able to preserve the structure so that uh there was no further damage to it from the elements and allowed certain things to take place said no sheet rocking uh could take place but the structure had been primar uh pretty much uh uh constructed um so tonight I have um sumes here to testify and Wayne Ingram to testify both as the engineer and planner as to the reasons why we're entitled to the variance relief one thing that um we noted was that the generator for a sidey guard variance would be required for the generator we're withdrawing that right off the top we'll make that that's really good you're going to move that generator into a compant location correct so we are not asking for um a variance for that generator that will be in a compliant location and the other thing is that the we'll we'll get Mr Ingram to testify to this but we will adhere to the the condition of the prior resolution that the effectivess of the storm water will be at 177% so that's the benefit of this deviation and the better plan due to a hardship of the the problems with the construction that uh entitled this board to Grant relief um because we are maintaining that 177% or will maintain that 177% as opposed to 20% I provided uh proof of service and publication of the notice of hearing and ask that the uh jurisdiction be confirmed you review the uh certifies correct everything is set yeah and the form of notice um is acceptable especially now that you're moving that generator as well as that's important yeah excuse me he's saying glad you guys are aduring to both requirements the generator as well as the storm water and that's why I put it right up there in the front can we get everyone's SW in yep so now we also have the board's engineering expert Rakesh Dy who's up there on zoom and everyone who's going to be a witness including raise your right hand does everyone swear or raes get your hand up there does everyone swear or affirm that the testimon you're gonna give in this matter will be the truth whole truth nothing but the truth I do okay okay so there's a slight delay obviously with Rakesh so when he speaks it's going to be a couple seconds after when you hear him but we now have our four Witnesses sworn in so do you mind if I also refer to suesh by your first name suesh okay so sches is the applicant Mr Ingram is your planning expert and your engineering expert and Jeff is the board's planning expert and raes dar is the board's engineering expert so what I what I'd like to do is actually um have Mr Ingram testify first as the engineer um to show the board board where it was previously appro approved where uh is currently constructed in the footprint area and then I'll bring sues forward to testify as to what happened and then I'll have Mr Ingram come back and bring the planning testimony that's a good plan thank you so Mr Ingram can you give the benefit of the of your qualifications as both an engineer and a planner to the board I'm a licensed engineer and planner in the state of New Jersey I've been practicing engineering for 20 years now and uh approximately 15 years as a planner uh both my licenses are current and valid and uh I have appeared before this board before offer Mr INR as an expert engineer and planner can we just find is there anyone in the audience here tonight on this application sues kalapurakal uh block 4402 lot 26 and the address that you said was 24 Tiffany Drive 24 Tiffany Drive no so they must be here on the last application so for the rest of this hearing you don't have to ask if there are any public questions any public comments there's no public okay so do you accept Tim as yes thank you thank you Mr Ingram we have an exhibit up there that was provided to Taylor but we're going to need to mark that can we identify it and Mark it as exhibit A1 with your permission [Music] excuse me and I also have it for online too just for you verh thank you and so we'll call this exhibit A1 uh it's the as built survey with the revision date of April 12 2024 okay and Mr gromberg is handing out 11 by 17 copies of A1 for all board members to have and essentially the only thing that changed from what was submitted originally as the asil to this one we highlighted uh in blue what was the approved Edition and then we just added some more uh detail to the approvals of coverage and things like that just for comparison s BL it's like a blue line you see it yeah line right here everybody see that you need to be pointed out no it's gray on his sorry I was done in very short order help do me a favor sh can you take the big one a highlighter and highlight the um the approved footprint not on mine on the big on the big PL oh you want the Highlight oh okay I thought it was coming down to highlight my plan I'm like I learned that in kindergarten and I've been pretty good at it ever since plus cut and pasting oh it's bowed me well over the over the years if my wife needs something cut I have the ability with scissors without a line I can cut a straight line oh yeah all right and can you take that exhibit and can you put it up here there's no one in the public can you put it right between these tables right close to them so they can see if you're going to point to it you can always grab that microphone and take it off the stand yeah and that one too no right up yeah got you nice and close so this supposedly blue line is the original just want to make sure correct yeah that's correct okay so what you're showing is that what was originally approved had a larger footprint than what was constructed is that what you're saying uh the footprints are rather similar um and just to describe the the change I mean basically what you could see happened and what the applicant will describe is the addition was essentially shifted backwards uh in in the lot and it got squared off in the front rather than coming in a little bit on each side and again mainly just shifted to the rear and what that did was it created this corner of of both the uh addition and the deck that it caches into the uh side yard right but that corner was originally created so you wouldn't need a setback variance the Notch was created so you wouldn't need a setback variance correct and they kept that notch in the rear portion it was the front portion that got squared off but again the Notch was there in the front originally so you to keep the setback right yes so again at this point I'm just going to describe for you that change essentially again there was the shift uh to the West excuse me when when you explain are you going to give us technical reasons why that was done I get to the planning argument I will yes and the applicant will describe the history of what occurred and why and you know how this this happened in the first place yeah I wanted everybody to be able to see what we were talking about we talked about it yes so uh we performed an as built survey uh at the applicant's request uh we found the closest corner uh of the addition to be at 12.17 FT and then you see we also uh notated the uh uh generator pad at 10.3 9 ft and essentially what we're going to do uh is is move that uh East so it's still on the side of the of the addition but get it out of the setbacks and and have it comply um and then again because of the back of the addition was over a corner of the uh deck goes over as well uh I calculated the actual encroachment at 36 square feet total between the deck and the addition so it is a a relatively minor portion of you know the overall structure that was added the deck also wa what the deck also encroaches it does ah okay and the original deck did not encroach correct uh that's my understanding yes there was there was no deck yeah there was no deck in the original approval okay uh so that those are essentially the changes and as you heard from um our attorney uh Our intention is to modify the storm water design uh so that we will maintain uh for the increase in coverage the reduction to 177% a total of about 31 square feet of additional impervious uh occurred on the property which brings the total impervious coverage to 28.820934 was approved so again a slightly higher uh increase to that coverage go back to one you said a 36 foot en crment of just the addition or the the deck plus the deck correct okay did they apply for any permits for that deck I am not aware did they no they did not okay what's the encroachment just from the addition before you do the deck I would I mean roughly half 15 square feet perhaps okay so again we have a 301 s foot increase uh in the impervious coverage from what was approved uh one thing that was done when the original storm water report was created he didn't have them go to the 27.9 2% that he was approved at he had it actually designed for up to 30 so there is a little wiggle room that was already built into that storm water design in case I guess that you know there there were some increases that were over we still have to modify that design slightly um in order to get our El back to 177% um but again a portion of that um uh Basin sizing that was already done had a little bit bit of uh wiggle room in it already so again we'll we'll we'll fully comply with the requirement to reduce to 17% as was approved in the prior resolution and the first resolution also granted a front yard setback variance for the rain Gardens and the storm water management facilities and we will be going no closer to the street than the prior Basin even though it might increase in size a little bit now that the mic is there you just have to talk towards her instead of me sure so that really is it in in describing the changes I miss the last Point what did you say about we the the Basin may have to change and increase in size a little bit to get down back down to 177% but it's not going to encroach any further forward than what was previously approved we have a little bit of room at the rear of the Basin uh to expand it to to to make that up the difference in that minor increase again do do the plans reflect where the storm water no this is an as built survey so this is what is built today they have not constructed the storm water basin yet that kind of like the last piece of what they they have to do but it's for the best because now we have to modify it uh anyway so at this point that's still relying on the original design from the variance plant the the the original plan actually called for a concrete pad with a deck above it is is that correct that's my understanding yes and now this has a foundation does it have a concrete pad or is there is there a crawl space under it is there a basement under it what what's the how was it constructed yeah we we why don't we hold those questions for the applicant okay that's really all I have in terms of the the engineering to describe to you where we're at and again I'll you know probably be best if I take questions after the uh the rest of the testimony Wayne you're just no no the mic is fine it's an inch from my face John I can't no no you're M you're mumbl no you have to turn towards Jackie turn towards Jackie just don't Mumble that's all I have with regard to the engineering testimony and I'll be available once I do the planning testimony to answer any further questions I guess I have a question for Jeff since we're in this situation with the storm order can can we request require that before they put in the storm water system that someone from the township goes out and approves and agrees to what the plan listen you could do One Step better you can require sometimes you require a stake out with pins and string right you I'm just to the point where I'm not even sure if you did stakes and pins it would be no but if you put stakes and pinss and then have them verify rather than have him go out and say him measure have them survey it stake it put the strings up then then have him verify are you referring to the Basin construction yes the Basin she's saying there I mean we had a requirement in the original approval to perform an asilt survey and we also did it here I think that in in my opinion that's still going to be a valid requirement so would have to provide an ASU survey to prove to you at conclusion that it was fully the size wa listen the case before they did an ASU survey they found out they violated here you had to do an as build survey we find out that you violated he didn't build it in accordance with the plan he stuck a deck on too what they're saying is before you put the the the basins in the front they now want to say look we don't want to wait anymore we don't want all these people coming back with these you know ask for forgiveness variances instead of approvals so stake it in the beginning so the contractor sees where where to put the thing if you're asking me can you legally do that I say absolutely yes I'd say you certainly can I just honestly don't know that it would make a difference because when we give you an asil it has to meet the setex or if if they ended up being half a foot forward they have to modify the Basin to make it the right size anyway so they're gonna knock the stakes out they're gonna cut down it's it hold it you can put Stakes 10 feet off so they can you don't have to put a stake right where the thing is you know that you could put the Stak five feet back 10 feet back so that someone could take a tape measure and measure off it if if if the board wants that you're just you're talking about a 40 foot area that they primarily have to fill with Basin they're going to knock it all out I'm just saying I I think the asilt makes absolute sense make sure it's the size that was approved I mean a stake out you know I don't know that it's going to make much of a difference but we could I understand it's just getting a challenging to review all these applications and have people come back again and again and it looks like we're being not accepting and yet we're supposed to re represent the township and they w i mean if there's a request for uh the St out as the condition of approval and just so you know the it makes the board look bad or when you guys come back in for these after Thea approvals what do you think the first the first applicant the first applicant probably thinks the board and and personally are are awful we're willing to do the St up yeah Don you have something to say Yeah question has the had previously before the violations and the stop work work order were issued had the storm water management design and plan been submitted as required in the resolution the prev storm motor report was approved and that's presumably how they were given permission to start construction in the first place all right I we just didn't get that information so I just was asking for clarification anything else for Mr Ingram at this point you'll be hearing a lot more trust me okay and we don't have to open up to the public there is no public right so um suash why don't we talk about when what what happened here what was your original Pro proposal for this addition hello everyone um can you hear me nice and loud to talk real loud oh real loud okay sure um I've been coming to this board this is the fourth or fifth time actually so I love to be coming to the board and asking for these kind of things um this project actually started in 2021 uh and and I applied for a variant and I comply with whatever the the township required um and also for the shed approval so thank you for approving that and so I started the construction work in 2023 actually uh that's when um the excavation team was on the ground when they started digging uh they saw the gas pipe on the electric lines are coming in with the flags already being marked where was where was that located it's in the front of the new construction yeah I can I why don't we show that to the board yeah Mr Ingram are you showing the the board the gas line correct thank you thank you how do we show raakesh I can take a picture and I can send it to him excellent thank you welcome so hold it hold it hold it we want to be shown also before Rakesh gets the picture okay wait everybody get it before reesh everybody get it before reesh this is the last time I'm doing this I'm just G to come in first okay make sure you see that can I just take a picture of Wayne G and that's why there are two lines shown on the drawing is that why there's two lines on the drawing Mr Ingram yes you can see on the as survey there are two meters on the side of the house so so what happened when they located the two the gas the electric line yeah so the original plan was if you look at it it is projecting out and then coming taking a shape actually so it was not clear rectangle so they recommended to push it back and have a rectangle so right now the foundation is completely a rectangle actually um [Music] yes yes yeah don't understand why want eliminate because the basement can come out actually that may be interfering with the gas line that's why they flattened it actually can I come pushing it back I don't understand why have to projection you can see the little bit of a projection coming out right instead of moving that and then it will cut here the entry point cannot be made from the house that's why it was a rectangle shape actually so flattened in the front of the house I okay now I understand why you eliminated the notch out where it attaches to the house yeah why did you eliminate the notch outs on the perimeter side of the addition because this I have lot of room here I could have had the notch uh but why did you eliminate the notch in the front which would have kept you out of the side yard yeah we don't know whether it well you don't know what you just said would have kept you out of the side I need to clarify I don't that he could say I don't know you can't answer the questions he's the witness why did you eliminate the notch at the portion of the addition closest to the side yard set that one there is no notch in the back also it is why on the planet show it Notch there why did you get rid of it because Aesthetics make it all square off yeah basically even the notch in the initial phase was have all four sides not okay you want to summarize that's important Point huh what did he say I just want he said that originally the addition had four Each corner had a notch yes so once he had to eliminate the notch closest to the gas and electric line he decided for a static re and when he pushed the addition back if they if he kept that Notch there which he could have it would have interfered where the internal um access point into the house would have been once he eliminated that Notch for aesthetic reasons he didn't want to have a notch on one side of the addition he didn't want to not have a notch on one side of the addition and still have the notches on the perimeter for aesthetic reasons that's what he that's the reason he said so from a process point of view this is question for John y or Jeff should they have come back and asked for all these changes rather than where we are today there should have been an amended should Foundation loc and an amendment I think I have a question I think it's for Wayne and this also goes to how did it come to pass that you stuck a deck on the back of the house you didn't you didn't even apply for a permit for the deck for the deck correct did you did you apply for a commitment that well uh when the design was approved there was a concrete slab and a balcony that was approved actually there was a concrete slab patio yeah that was on the original plan that the board of adjustment approved yeah that is let's assume that was the case was there a deck no there was no deck actually did the original concrete patio that you say is on the plan the board approved did that encroach into the sidey I don't no it didn't I don't so why did you not think that you needed even a zoning permit for the deck honest yeah because you thought you could just change it from a patio to a deck without needing to get any sort of approval Steve I'm asking him I I know but you're you're leading him and I I'm allowed to I'm allowed to you know that I'm allowed to then you can you can redirect or whatever I'm just I want to know what you're thinking was that you didn't think you needed to get approval for the deck before you change from a patio to a deck I honestly didn't know that that I need a approval for the deck to be built actually because I already had a concrete Pao approv I thought it was the same thing actually I ask a question was it approved for a balcony above the concrete so the deck that we're talking about is below the balcony area correct yes yeah okay did the balcony encroach into the sidey yard on the approved plan I don't think so I don't think so either I don't but when everything got pushed back that's where the approachment occurred yeah okay so I think this question is for go ahead Don yeah I'm I'm a bit confused because the I'm I'm a bit confused when you're referencing that a concrete patio was approved in the attachment in Mr vella's April 20 April 12 letter yeah it doesn't show any which was also in the previous letter it shows yeah that doesn't show me you're right that doesn't show any patio does show do you guys have the plan that you say the boa approved that showed a concrete patio I can share the plan that that I have if you'd like well I mean Jeffrey we have we have our file here we have the plan and I have the zoning permit which I approved and it says per location approval Within the resolution and site plan nothing else there's no there's no deck there's no balcony there's where do you have Wayne where do you have a plan that the board approved that has a either a patio or a balcony what was submitted with the application included the variance plan um prepared February 22nd 2022 and that was what was approved so what what is there a balcony or a concrete patio on it I don't either so why do you think the board approved a concrete patio in a balcony so I can show you need you need a microphone that was what you're showing us was never submitted to the board did you submit that yes it was submitted by the to the township actually yeah we it's not stable because this along with the engineering report and everything was submitted well did you submit any additional documents to Construction in not in other words did you submit that yes architectural rening to the construction Department I don't know whether it's a construction department or zoning it you're you're the zoning officer correct yes did he submit that to you I don't remember that can you look in the file can I see what that is please yeah can you show that to the board [Music] secretary no me what while we're doing that the the resolution on page three hold on that has never been submitted to the planning and zoning office at all I'm looking through the file and I don't see any the resolution on page three talks about the proposed improvements and required and requested relief and it says the proposed improvements consist of twostory addition to the dwelling to be used primarily for a conservatory a music area on the a music area on the first floor and indoor garden planting area on the second floor the proposed dwelling Edition and B additional patio area the proposed patio Edition is that the the um the patio area that you were talking about I'm sorry Steve what were you reading that I'm sorry that was the resolution page three which resolution is BOA 052 21 05 2021 The Heading says construction of twostory addition to existing dwelling and Patio area Okay hold it hold it hold 20219 okay and where do you where are you reading from where's the might be the heading where's the relief that was granted proposed improvements and required and requested relief patio area Okay patio addition okay there's a patio addition okay there was no relief granted for it to take a look at the relief granted and there's no balcony and no staircase so the relief is on page seven and eight there's a hard surface coverage to let you go to 27.9 2% hard surface I'm ask Mr Ingram did you look to see that what constitutes the 27.9 to because if the building addition didn't constitute that then presumably would be a patio and the front yard variance that's it let's hope that you're right that it included a patio but a compliant patio that didn't protrude into a side yard you would agree with that correct that didn't trigger any other variants really correct quick question is it Pao the circular part that's on the side or is that already there so on on the plan there's a like circular type patio with walls and papers is that the relief that they're they're asking about you that what is that connect yeah there a walkway to where to the existing PS I can tell you that the the difference between before we started any construction and what was approved includes a twostory frame dwelling addition of approximately 590 square feet and an increase in pav uh pavers which is says walkway and and Patio of 124t so now Mr can come over here we're looking at the plan it looks like maybe it was a bad description but looks like that a walk a walkway is what I see on page one of three on the variance plan that's what was approved walk all throughout no the bottom of a hockey St but it's it's un there's a what what is this Mr Ang that's that's existing existing those were existing stairs so you're adding the the uh concrete to that area to create a patio area yes and and instead it extended across the rear of the addition did you actually install that walkway so instead of instead of installing a walkway that the approval gave you you put a deck up instead of approved balcony and the where is the approved balony this is the documents that's been submitted you submitted it to who I I was personally doing it actually my contractor sub your contractor submitted he told you he submitted it well he told you right well you just heard two people can you raise your right hand I'm going to swear you win that's your left hand oh sorry you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give the TRU whole trth nothing but the truth yes sir you're the board secretary yes sir um are you responsible for documents getting filed in the planning department correct the applicant showed you a picture of can you show me that picture again of a balcony with a spiral staircase staircase and a concrete slab behind or in front of the addition was that ever behind behind was that ever I have never seen that photo so you don't know if it was submitted contractor say that's certainly not what was approved the patio referenced in the resolution looks like the bottom of a hockey stick it is [Music] um WAFF Steve Mr I'm trying to get the facts straight before the board gets asked to Grant any relief do we want to take a break yeah you know what that'd be a good idea okay let's take a break it's uh day 22 we'll come back at couple minutes before 8:30 about 8:28 we have 10 minutes you have 2 minutes because what we would like to do is continue the matter so that we can do an openal request and get the information that obviously the board wants to have okay I do have one question that I think we want to cover before okay somewhere it was stated that the addition the change is less square footage and okay so yeah no that's that's incorrect the the exhibit that we have here shows I think show show show the chart the top line of the impervious coverage calculations shows you to start at the beginning so before any work was done right the H the house was 3256 Square ft the approved was 3,841 the add built is 3,976 and I can tell you that the the essentially the change you know resulted from squaring off those Corners that he talked about and uh connecting the house slightly uh on the North edge of the addition and that's what created a 135 foot increase okay all right so I don't know where I got that from thank you thank you for clarify I do have a question you initially mentioned about overall there was a 36 foot what is that the 36 square ft is the area of the improvements which extends into the side yard so out of that out of that entire addition and the deck and everything it's only the corners of the addition and the deck which actually encroach because is on an angle the encroachment from the board's approv plan was zero so it went from 0 squ ft encroaching to 36 ft encroaching and he said it was approximately 15 Square fet encroachment by the addition and approximately 21 square feet encroachment by the deck for a total of approximately 36 square feet of addition of encroachment of the addition and the deck is that correct that is correct and Wayne I want to challenge that okay because I'm a visual person okay and what I'm seeing and I'll show you okay this it's a deck and the stairs yeah to me it's mostly the deck and the stairs we are saying this is the only part of the building right here right this right where the generator this is part of the deck and this is part of that just this part right there this is not deck right in there that is ground coverage that little that little rectangle is ground coverage of hold on this this piece down here is shown as impervious but it's not but right so we're saying okay pictures turn around yeah yeah turn around yeah we got right so you're right this this there papers look in the picture right right it's this triangle corner here right and this triangle corner here I was not including the steps oh you were not including steps I didn't know if that I mean theep okay I did not count the steps I just assumed that was not counted okay so what all right I apologize I was referring to the two triangles of the actual space that's utilized not the stairs I when we come back I could give you a number that includes the stairs okay all right I just want to make sure I understood thank you okay so we got to pick a date so we got to pick a date so first of all if you're GNA get an Opa request the custodian of records has 7 days to respond to when do you think you're going to get your Opa request out within the week okay so let's say if he gets it out next week the op request gets to respond following week so now we're two weeks out and then Wayne is going to do some revisions to the drawing he's going to get the chart you're going to break out the encroachment between the deck and the stairs separate from the addition and Wayne you got to check to see if those are papers from the picture it looks like those that rectangle is papers yes so that would also have to P feature I thought be okay put it this way but that's going to be counted as part of the hard surface coverage it is and we have it reflected in the calculator okay what's how close to the property line can you have yeah it's uh if less thanet then it's feet in height so that complies okay okay so knowing that it will take Steve two weeks to get his answer it doesn't delay my plan doesn't delay your plan that have no effect on okay so what are we looking at for dates for these guys you can book it with your other one Steve for June 6 if you'd like that sounds great okay so the hearing in this application is continued without the need for notice to June 6 six and what is the time to decide this one um I believe it's on the red wall can you can you look at the red well and give me when the board has to decide this application July 6 July 6 2024 so let's move this one also out to August 31 extend okay we can do that um our approval our original approval expires in May yeah correct listen the bottom line is this if you get a new approval you're going to get new dates you're not going to get the same dates maybe you're going to get six months so if you get an approval you won't need an extension if you don't get an approval you need need an extension so don't ask for the extension tonight ask for the extension when you're here on June 6 can't just get an extension to the end of the time period that we're extending because you're not how can they extend you if you're not in compliance they're going to extend you to get what to we' still have technically I guess the ability to get into comp the only way you could get into compliance is if you cut part of the addition off right you're not doing that so my suggestion is don't waste your time dealing with an extension request unless he's willing to say yeah they're going to cut a corner of your addition off which are obviously not no so it would be an extension for nothing okay all right yeah so uh again Hearing in this application is continued without notice without need further notice at June 6 and they've extended to August 31 okay thank you than thank you next next application boa case number 02-2020 applicant is kpal Maj Madar location is block 72.2 4 lot nine 8 Hastings Lane application for a c variance for exceeding the permitted square footage and height of an accessory structure [Music] okay so can you identify yourself for the record for the record my name is kupal majadar and can you spell your last name nice and slowly my last name is spelled m AJ m d a r okay so Jeff correct me if I'm wrong but the only people that are going to be testifying here are the applicant and you is that correct or yes yes so can you tell Rakesh if he wants he's excused and he can have the rest of the night off oh sorry reesh you can you're not on on the yeah you can you can if you want to watch he's saying you can watch but if you don't everyone would understand if you have a good rest of the evening yeah take thank you guys very much everyone have a good night and I'll see you all live and in person next next meeting thank you okay so let's have the applicant and Jeff raise your right hand if both of you swear or affirm the testimony you're going to give in this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do I okay and again Jeff identify yourself for the record your relationship to the board T planner and board planning expert okay I think you you get how they do it just tell them you know what you're hear for what you want they're going to ask you all sorts of questions sure I'd like to build a a shed that's slightly larger than I'm allowed to build yeah you right into it yeah and nice and Loud I'd like to I'd like to build a shed on my property a little bit uh taller and a little bit larger than I guess is allowed by the statutes of this T can I ask you something you're calling this a shed right or is it a pole barn it's a pole barn so let's let's call it a pole barn and not a shed so no one gets confused yeah yeah we'll do okay so the proposal is to build a full barn now the location complies is that correct as the best of my knowledge it does so Jeff I'm looking at the plan the plot plan which is dated January 3 2024 and it looks like it's a 30 foot wide by 50 foot long pole barn and on the plan it's 16 ft away from the property line and my understanding is the requirement is 15 ft is that correct that's correct so the location complies yes now there's a shed in the back North easterly Corner that doesn't comply how just how long has the shed been there it's uh it's always been there since we bought the property okay can I just ask you something yes would how much trouble would it be if you moved it it looks like six of a foot which is about I don't know 7 Ines on each side to get it 15 feet away will it fall apart or can it be moved I don't know if I don't know how sheds are moved I have no idea how to move a shed like uh what's involved in moving a shed I I have no idea well the company that puts the pole barn up I bet they can move it if you're if you're I don't know yeah I'm not sure how to move someone's gonna ask you because they can't just I mean they see a shed it doesn't comply it's only off by a couple inches but someone's going to ask you at some point so put that in the back of your mind gotcha and then the the Bigg the question they're going to ask you is why does the pole barn have to be greater than 20 feet which is the maximum height permitted for accessory structures what do you intend to do there that you need it over 20 feet so can I answer that yeah so my intention was to put uh eventually put a vertical garden there I wanted to do something with automated gardening where I wanted to grow a garden I need the sunlight and the I wanted to grow it without the with the UV light and uh I thought it would be a nice thing to do as I pass time right but why does it have to be 22 feet N9 in why can't do that B Storage the bottom is going to be storage yeah and in order to walk upstairs I needed about what two and a half two more feet uh more than was required so this say this is a second floor if I wanted to I wanted to have the ability to do so yes is the second floor shown on this plan I don't think so plan you submitted is a one one correct I haven't made plans to build it yet but as I progress through this if I have to build l i will submit further plans for that to move forward okay Jeff so what Jeff's report says this is Jeff's report dated April 2 so you need a variance from exceeding the height of an accessory structure okay A C variance not a d height variant to an accessory structure he also says you need a variant because you have a maximum 1,500 square feet of structures allowed now is that footprint or is that floor area can you get the or huh it's square footage of structure so if he does a second floor the square footage that you calculated for the pobn would actually be double if he does a second floor that's you don't I'm not asking you to do the calculation I'm asking you would you would you have to do that can you just do me a favor look in the and see exactly it's ordinance section 29614 I did not know that this was going to that you were thinking of doing a second floor well it's not an entire second floor it's more of a like a walkway so I could just walk up there in that area so it's like around that was my thinking um so it's going to be like one of those libraries that has a second level but it's going to be a it's going to be a pathway so it might not just just look at the ORD see what it says so it's like more like a balcony yeah it's it's more like that you can walk up there you can you can plant like a raise beds and you can grow it out of there that was that was the intent a clarification on the plans it's showing 25.6 they can't hear you on the plans it's showing 25.6 feet to the top of the building on page uh six of the exhibit so you're talking about these are the the pole barn plans correct is that that's the microphone that's the top of the the top of the peak Peak so the way the the ordinance reads is that it's actually the midpoint between the E and the peak so you measure height by the midpoint yes okay okay thank you for the clarification but explain again why can you not knock off 2 feet n inches and still do what you want to do I don't understand um I could but I just choosing not to because it's aesthetically more pleasing to do it that way it's aesthetically more pleasing for the outside if if it's 22 from the inside when I'm in there gardening and doing it that way so again like you heard in the first application so this is a these are C Varian okay my opinion hardship is not going to apply so utility utility wise is what you're asking me why do I need it higher I'm asking well yeah I'm I'm asking you if if you could have some reason that it it can't be 20 feet it has to be 22 fo9 yes that would help your case because otherwise by saying you prefer it that way the benefit of the C2 variant the purposes it has to be for the public not for you the public part I'll get to in a second but the the bottom floor is going to be used for storage right um so there's going to be things on the bottom floor uh the base of where it is and forgive me if I'm using the wrong words okay uh where you walk in that's that that area there's going to be uh vehicles and uh ATVs and you know equipment and workshop and things like that maybe some some soil and whatever else one level up on that catwalk as you called it or or the B catwalk it's yeah yeah um and there's there's where I wanted to raise beds I understand why can't the catwalk instead of starting at whatever height why can't it start 2 feet n inches lower because I don't bump my head as a you need at least 20 feet right each each floor to have enough room you want to have 10 feet and 10 feet from what I understand based on what's 10 feet 10 feet based on that's what I understood to that's a building that's a that's an awful I mean that's an office building yeah that's an office building they have 10 foot ceilings and most what's the ceiling Heights in most what's the ceiling Heights in your house old house is eight newer house is nine yeah something like that so if you put that's my understanding if you walk in and you have and and this is to the walls right so the walls are not as tall as that the walls are only 14 feet on the ends so I'm not going to be I this is the the second floor is going to be along the walls the walls are not 22 something feet high they're they're only like put it way what if you used a shed roof okay instead of an A-frame roof if you used a shed roof right you could have one side that actually might even be same height as this and The Other Side Lower and it would probably lower your height calculation why do you need an A-frame roof instead of a shed roof uh I wasn't given that option I'm not aware of that option I mean I guess you could use it that way but I wanted to be even so that you can have all the way around you guys got to take it from here I guess I would like also there's other issues there's other issues in Jeff's reports about um when you say that you want to use this potentially as a gym is this just a home gym or is no it's yeah um just a store gym equipment so I have a lot of stuff in my house I wanted to put it out there some of it is gym equipment some of it is Christmas stuff some of is Christmas trees there's just a lot of stuff there's tools and as I understood it when I spoke with Jeff only vehicles are allowed in there so when I asked well can I put tools I said well yeah you might need a variant put it this way you can St you can have residential storage in an accessory structure but so you could have gym equipment being stored but if you make this into a recreation room oh no no yeah yeah it's not I'm not making what your paper set is a gym if you made this into a recreation gym which then you would need a a use variant because it's it's habitable space instead of storage so I want to store my another point was that I wanted to store like ATVs and things and we weren't sure if they counted as vehicles or not doesn't matter you so that is there any require they it's can you store any residentially related equipment in here is there some some ordinance that says he can't so the conversation goes through whether or not it's the detach garage versus access microphone ja you're gonna owe us a lot of money so he's he's referring to the initial when I reviewed it for a zoning permit it was confused as to what the use was going to be and that's where he's indicating it could be only used for storage based upon a detach garage definition if there's other storage components to it it's more of an accessory structure or shed which is limited to an 800 squ feet okay now I understand limit so that's really where if this thing a detached garage there's an exemption and it doesn't fall under the accessory structure limitation correct yeah and and I am planning on putting cars in there as well here's the question can you under the ordinance can you have a vertical garden in a detach garage or do you need would that have to be in an accessory structure that that would be more of an accessory structure the definition of a detached garage is very strict to only storing car uh vehicles now I understand what you're now I understand what he's saying so he can't it's not a can't be a detached garage because of the it all comes down to the relief he needs yeah okay if he said if he came before you right now and said P barn but it's G to it's a detached garage there's only going to be Motor Vehicles stored in it okay then remember you guys had an application the guy that had first we had ex large lot but he had a accessory stuff he had a this like huge thing play thing for his kids he had a um you know those pits a huge fire pit he had all sorts of stuff and they all counted towards the maximum amount of square footage of accessory structures but he also wanted to have a detached garage and that's when we figured out that the detached garage doesn't get counted towards at but if he wants to use this to store stuff not just Motor Vehicles then it is an accessory structure he does need that additional variance but that's just on the variance for how many square feet of accessory structures it sure seems to me he's got to make this he's got to say this is an accessory structure or he's not going to be able to do the things he wants to do that still doesn't has nothing to do with the height that separate issue okay so I don't know if I'm going to ask this question correctly if it's a detached garage is it not attached is can it not be can it not be a detached garage if the majority of what he's storing is cars is autom the problem is going to the ordinance what he's going to read the definition for you and I was think it another way if you put a partition up and you had you know literally partition right you had a door on this side for the vehicles and you had a door on that side could you say that this was the detached garage it wouldn't count towards square footage and on the other side maybe but let's just see what this let's answer your question first your question is can you have both in there as long as the majority of it private garage a detached or attached structure used only for the storage of vehicles owned or rented by the O occupant of the principal structure or his or her family boom it's very very very restrictive okay all right so if he does put if he does put a partition then he can work through the process well okay he can put a partition he's still whatever he decides the accessory structure portion is my guess is because of the other stuff he has he's still going to need that variance yeah but listen is there anything in the ordinate to says you can't put a motor vehicle in an accessory structure no no so he can put if it's an accessory structure he can store motor vehicles and other stuff he just can't use it as a recreation room okay or he needs a use variance yes because that's taking a habitable space and he's have that would be two separate buildings instead of just doing an addition attached occasionally over the past 5 years when someone wants to do that what do we tell them attach it even if you have to put a connecting walkway but we're we don't have that issue the the biggest issue is height is the height so you got to give them some something so you said you didn't consider uh Mr drill's suggestion shed roof right so the the benefit to the community that's what I was looking for the benefit to the community is I think what I wanted to focus on I'm not going to eat the amount of fruits and vegetables that come from this I was planning on just donating to my neighbors to The Pantry I was just doing this as a hobby I think this is the space I need that that's fantastic right but that doesn't answer why do you need it at 20 feet to do that why can't you do that at 20 feet because the the design that I have in mind I need the space and I need to do it off the ground because it going be something yeah we know you got to do it off the ground what you said is the reason you don't want to do it any lower so you don't bang your head well that's not the only reason right that's that's one of the reasons I'm supposing because one I clearly don't understand the the the height levels and the differences right there's other reasons as well the other reasons that I want it higher is that I want to put some uh heat lamps on it I want to put uh automated robotics in there which might need that space and I don't want to put that stuff on the ground so I need that space up higher and plus the walls as I calculated them what are the size of the walls if you if you remember the the height of the walls it's it's on this plan right if you go to sheet three your inside height is 2 feet right if I take it 2 feet less it's at8 two feet less would bring me in right would would make it okay two feet less would bring it to 18 feet so on the walls on the inside height of the wall 18 feet would make it n and n can I still have that make it Nine and Nine which is the same height in most modern homes I miscal I think perhaps these guys miscalculated or misunderstood I mightbe I don't need it maybe you're right I don't need it um did you guys point we we can't hear you that 9 we're doing a paper change hold on Jack is doing a paper [Music] change ready I was just making a point I know it's too much overwhelming yeah I wanted to make sure you understand 9 and n is how the houses are today residential so if you visualize that that's what you have so that's and will n and n get me into uh avoid having the put it this way if you do nine and N with a shed roof maybe you got I think what you're better off doing I mean it's up to you you could try to go for this tonight but you may have a hyp problem is adjourn it talk to this Brian Smith guy who drew these plans tell him that you want to see what look like if your inside Wall height was 18 instead of 20 and if they put a shed roof right on to see if if the height calculation because if the height calculation is the that you measure it to between the top of the peak and the side the low side would be approximately 20 feet and it all depends on you know you have a 4 to 12 pitch on this thing so maybe you make the pitch a little less and you have a shed roof so maybe you have 20 on one side but if I have so if I just interrup if I have 9 feet right yeah um given that the design the plans as they are now let's say the the catwalk starts at 9 feet plus the the the I guess whatever the height of the kite the catwalk is right so if I'm standing on that and I have a raised bed on that which is probably another this height right I don't know yeah it's about three so we're already at this is why I need it I'm getting to the point you got to draw something up right I'm I'm trying to justify why I need the feet so let me let me finish that thought it's still it will exceed I I would need that extra two feet it would be useful because 9 ft plus another let's say 3 feet and three feet that's six feet where the raised bed would start that's where the plants would start so I'm already at 15 I need at least another five or six feet to to have a vertical garden may maybe I don't understand this you have a catwalk yes you're standing on the catwalk right correct the plants are on the raised bed correct okay so you have you're standing there and you're not going to hit your head because you're not 9 feet tall you have a raised bed at three feet and another raised bed at six feet correct sure presumably and the lights on top of that I so are you saying you need the distance for the plants and not your head no no I yeah I need the distance for the the the let's say for example the the water the the pipes that go through and water everything I need something for the electronics that may power the the cameras that look at the the plants as they're growing so that I can choose the right you know so if you ever heard of a farmbot you ever seen those it's one of those designs I'm trying to work on those designs so I can put a camera up top kind of see what's going on I need that space up there for that equipment as well so if I want to put a scaffolding for example around that entire rais bed I would need that space and I I'm sure I could try to figure out a way to to shorten it but it it would be a lot more work this thing thing is going to have electric to it it's going to have Plumbing to it it's going to be heated uh it's not going to be heated I'm trying to do that I'm gonna try to figure out a way to do that naturally because I'm G to store water in there um I think the water will offset the the climate and these are all things I want to test right so before I do any electric before I do any uh make a suggestion I Now understand what you're saying but I think that you need some type of drawing you could take sheet three and I think you got to do some sort of drawing whether yourself or have this guy do it show it a catwalk is show where the beds are put you know a the depiction of a person your height in there to show them what your it's not so much it's not so much his height it's not so much it's it's the the logistics of the structure he wants to put in place right so they can see what you're talking I also just wanted to note that the doors it looks like it's 10 feet in height so probably why they did it that way just I don't know if you need to have them that high but that was just kind of why that's a good question why do you have the overhead doors at 10 feet because when you put a car in there with a like a a taller SUV with a carrier on top you need that space to park it in there 10t 10 feet is a commercial Overhead Door size for a warehouse well but is there is there a restriction on doors that I'm not aware of no but you're saying that if that's part of the reason that you need the height no well the door is for the Aesthetics right that's I I'm not sure that the door has nothing to do with why I need 20 F feet the reason I need 20 fet is for the plants okay so I have a question about the microphone whoops I have a question about the weight bearing of the building so this sounds pretty heavy um that you'll be having um growing medium and water and water storage so is the design of the building taking all that into account yes I'm planning on storing the water at the bottom and recycling it up yeah a drawing is going to a drawing is going to be very helpful for us to understand even though the electronics are still going to have weight to them yeah but they're they're all I want them all to be stored at the bottom that's I'm still designing this stuff and I need the I need the Mind space to be able to do this sound like you talking about water and electronics overhead no it's going to be pumped UPS right it's going be pump up so but I have to create this thing right in order to create it properly I just I just need the space and that's why I'm here asking for VAR like Mr drill was saying it'd be helpful if we could see it see my design for for the vertical garden correct just a a conceptual because conceptual you're asking for Relief right we need listen it sounds like they like the idea right okay they like the idea you're gonna have vehicles in there that won't be outside that's aesthetically pleasing that's a public benefit to have a vehicle inside to have an ATV inside right that's public benefit what you're doing you know for the Earth in general environmentally that's a public benefit so they're I think they're liking the idea I hope that benefit outweighs the uh the amount of effort that's required to get this variance right yeah but you're you're explaining why you think it needs to be 22 feet9 in and they're like they're saying we're from Missouri can you show us what you're talking about you're you know you're they're beginning to understand I Now understand what you're they want to see it so again look at page sheet three right and if you could sketch something in you mean like right now no okay no right now it's nine o'clock Wonder no you know adjourn it and give it some thought and give it some thought show well and even if there's examples out there like indoor farming I mean yeah there's there's F I mean it's the whole idea of this is so I can create this in the space if I sketch something out because the minute you said that cuz I I I I was misunderstood when you talked about your height but the minute you said that you know oh you need two beds and then you need the logistics above it right to watch the plants grow or whatever you want to do and I don't know what kind of structure you need but if I see a picture of it I can say oh now I see why he needs that it'll just help us to understand and the amount of effort it will take okay the amount of effort it'll take to do this it's it's easier to actually build the thing right it's just no it's not no it's not because you're going to need a plan to build from so you have two sheets here you have sheet two which is an overhead floor plan so you need in my opinion what you got to bring back to these guys draw in on sheet two where the catwalk is going to be okay and then you have sheet three which is a crosssection of the interior wall and then draw in there where the catwalks going to be where you think another you're going to do like drip irrigation I assume black piping all the little holes is going to be you know so where those things will be hanging approximately and the electronics or whatever just do a sketch a conceptual sketch so they can see what I can now in this sketch figure out a way to cut it by what two and a half feet I do any of this stuff bingo bingo then all you Lord guys come on correct all you need you're still going to need the the one variance then to have more than 1500 square feet of structure but that's a no-brainer variance just listen that's a no-brainer variance they granted them before for you know for for good things this is a good thing right can I just redact the the two feet then I have to come back with another plan without with it coming down by two feet yeah if you come out with the plan with it down two feet you don't have to show them anything about what you want to do I'll bring it down but that's fine you know it's easier for me to design this thing without without the height if I do that do I have so so are we saying okay there's members of the public out there so we have to see if they have any questions and they want to be heard we're not saying an approval tonight okay wait wait wait wait wait wait wait with everything that's going on tonight um is it possible that we could vote on this tonight with the condition that he will provide the change because I I I I'm just trying to save him coming back okay I'm just trying to figure out a way that if th because now he gets it now he gets what the issue is is that we this two and a half fet is killing us is there a way we could could or does he have to come back and if he does come back it should be simple you could Grant an approval on the condition that the building height cannot be higher than 20 feet and you could say that the other condition is that that shed's got to be moved into a compliant location then they don't he only need one variance and that is to have more than 1500 square feet of accessory structures you could do that but I but you have two people sitting out in the audience that might have questions and might want to be heard about this sure so that that is a possibility of how to handle this are you okay with that yeah I'm okay I just had a question that 20 fet is that on again on the average yeah that's yeah mid the midpoint of that has to be 20 ft so there's there's a lot of ways to skin that cat right one is a flat roof okay now most people don't want to have a flat roof right but that's one way to skin that cat and the other one was a a shed roof a shed roof is like on an angle oh just one angle like a right a okay right you have you have an A-frame right right so a shed would be like that gotcha Flats like that okay yeah I'd be I'd be okay with that yes okay so so there are people in the public so there people in the public you guys have any questions you want to ask of and for now it's just questions unless you want to do no questions and comments yeah questions and comments okay so let me get your sworn in can you raise your right hand do you swear any comments that you make will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes and can you give us your name Peter no can you spell a last name yeah m i l i look at us please even though I'm asking l i t n o okay m i l l i t a n o okay and what's your address 46 sutfin Road rer Township New Jersey okay so now you can ask him questions and you can make comments I uh I basically just want to make a comment to the board because I can I understand everything that's happening now as and which I did not understand based upon the letter that was delivered to our house uh but my my only concern is in living in a residential area in a one acre Zone I guess and our property is almost to and so is the applicants uh my only concern is that I come from a town where when a precedent gets started then it just blossoms from there to everyone it becomes the norm and that's why I stayed to the end of the meeting I found out that it was a shed and now I found out was a pole barn or whatever but that's my only concern that once you once you make a rule that is your zoning Rule and it gives you a size dimension I hope that it doesn't just become the standard in our area that everyone just exceeds it for the sake of exceeding it because they want to exceed it I hate to say it but I think with what you've seen tonight I think we're kind of have you been here the whole night did you see the first two absolutely absolutely and I commend the board for what you do because you're trying to make compliance with the rules and and be fair and and and standardize everything but that's my only concern when when I got a when you get a piece of paper in uh delivered to your house and it says the town allows 800 feet but okay we're going to do, 1500 feet that's my bank concern because I come from a town where it's out of control at this point now tell you come from Union County for Le for Le okay you want to see a town you want to see a town that's overdeveloped look at Fort late and that's my only concern that it doesn't become a standard from house to house to house yeah okay so that's my point all right thank you you're welcome all right so where are we I have a question sure why don't you guys talk about it yeah so um this um gentleman brought to my mind theide idea that so many hobbies evolve and become small businesses right that so I I have conditions in my mind already no commercial use no habitable space you know we'd have to if you're right that does it for me if you're going to approve that and I'm sure you'd have no problem with that also to speak to the precedent part there's conditions on this so the even if there's a precedent there's so many conditions to this it's not like it's just going to go willy-nilly right it's you have so many angles to be able to say well it's not for the public benefit to the same degree that this is it's not for you know commercial use it's not you can add as many conditions as you like and that would keep that precedent impossible to to use as a reference give your food away but you can't sell your food sure yeah right okay the other the other issue I'm assuming um the applicant the issue there's no zoning permits for the patio the Gazebo or the shed correct okay that's interesting okay let's talk about that so did when you bought the house did it have the Gazebo and the shed on it so the the shed was the the the one at the corner was was there when when we bought it uh the Gazebo we got from Costco and it just you put it together and it's just there it's not it's a metal gazebo it's a just a tin structure that's we got from Costco so I wasn't aware we needed a permit for that um well that's that do they need a permit for the Gazebo yes yeah and then we need a zoning permit yeah uh zoning permit and con construction so so put it this way prior to this proposal for the PO Barn how many square feet of accessory structures they does he now have on his property so the Gazebo I put I thought you actually asked you said the I thought you asked for a calculation it's a 10 x 10 and a 20 by10 you said that this office does not have zoning permits for the paper patio to the north of the deck the Gazebo or the shed with the paper base you said that the zoning table confirm it appears that it's yeah it looks like you did not know so okay so I before I said I could see granting the variance tonight but granting the variance to allow how many square feet we know the square footage of the proposed pole barn but we could probably figure out the square footage do you know the the size of the shed is it 8 by10 you know what it is it's sh on the corner of the property I do hold on give me one second it's uh it's like 10 x 14 I don't know no it's larger than that because it has to comply with it's larger than 200 okay so listen yes we're down to one variance right as the as the gentleman said it's the amount of square footage of accessory structures the problem that I will have if they granted is what have they granted how many square feet so you you may have to come back just if you take the condition about 20 feet you don't have to do anything else that's between you and them but you may have to come back and you got to have somebody whoever prepared this survey Ryan Warford go out there and take the measurements of all your accessory structures and put it on there so we know what you have because EOS are as I understand them they're mounted into the ground are they not yeah it's it's an accessory structure yeah this this is something that's just sitting there it's not you know does that still qualifies a gazebo is my question H is that still qualify as a gazebo well this not a trampoline the trampoline could argue it's a piece of gym equipment right okay plus you could argue that well I'm arguing that the Gazebo is not the Gazebo is not a gazebo just so you know what is it then if it's not a gazebo it's it's a tin roof you bought from Costco it's a it's not something there's grass underneath it there's not a floor no there's no floor underneath it you argue it's like a tent yeah it's just a it's just a tent like easy but it's it has no floor didn't don't gazebos have floors not all of them to be a gazebo do you have to have a floor look up do we have a definition of gazebo in there look it up when I think of gazebo I don't thinked on you might think about that let's just see if we have a uh listen here's the bottom line your your guy who did this plan he labeled it as a gaze we didn't okay well he can uh do we know what this I mean the good news is you don't have a hard surface problem you're one of the first people a hard surface problem you don't have one what is that oh how much hard surface coverage you have okay because the roof of that whatever it's called gazebo that's considered hard surface coverage but you're you're well under because you have such a large lot so so at least you don't have that does it have anything underneath the Gazebo right now like is there a grill or you could yeah you could you can remove it from there it's all like portable okay it's not like a standin nice builting grill or anything like that no it's it's so you can take the couches right out and um you know you can there's a there's chairs there's a you know all these and the the grill you could take out okay so it's all on grass yeah it's all on grass it's on the concrete of the pool you're going to take there it out put it back in I mean listen we didn't call this a gazebo he through his professional called it a gazebo the plan shows it as a gazebo but the so if the plans are incorrect what is the to correct the plans and just I mean does it matter that it's concrete though it doesn't matter that underneath is concrete because that's already there this thing's on top of concrete yeah it's it's on on the pool okay something I thought you said it's on grass no I did not say that yeah I think uh based on that and there are couple of other issues here I I read we can go over them for the benefit before we so here here's my question you got this guy's well under the hard surface coverage right so if he wanted to put a p Pao in right he go to you he'd ask for a zoning permit for a patio as long as it was in a compliant location you'd let him put a patio in correct yes now if he puts a roof over the patio the patio is not an accessory structure the reason this is becomes an accessory structure is because look up the definition of structure that's where it is a building has walls in a roof in a structure let's just see that's what that's what D structure is a definition struction yeah the structure definition let's just see what it is it includes everything any structure any assembly of materials above or below the surface including them are not limited to buildings bathing fences yeah once you put a roof over that concrete patio it's an accessory structure umbrella would be then an accessory structure as well by that logic right so an umbrella would also be an accessory structure no because they're not permanently attached this is not permanently attached either you can move this thing how is it is it State yeah it's it's I mean you could pull those things out you take the screw Stak in I know listen you could take the deck off you could take a by you know taking a a circular saw and cutting the deck and taking the nails out the relative ease of unscrewing something I mean the relative ease is not the issue if it's attached in this is it's an accessory structure if you want to keep it you need to to get all the square footage of this thing so we so the board can see what kind of variants you need what's the extent we know you need a variance to exceed the 800 square feet how okay put it this way how much of a VAR do you want how much over the 800 S ft it sounds like 8 plus 700 correct I don't know I'm asking you because I can't tell so you tell me I want okay so how much do I want I want the the size of that Barn that's how much more I want okay if you want the size of the barn do you know if your existing shed and gazebo and any other um structures out there exceed 800 square F feet do any of those structures exceed combined individually aggregate add them up how many square feet are in the shed uh 20 by 10 it's not 10 x 10 no 20 by 10 10 x 10 that's we're talking about the you're counting the gazebos and I have to count the gazebos right so I'm going in that order the 20 x 10 10 x 10 that's 300 plus 100 plus whatever you know je what do you think that shed is shed when I scale that it's 12 by 20 so what's 12 by 20 how many 20 I I think that might be listen we're we be talking about two different things here you said 10 by I'm talking about gazebo gazebo and Sh gazebo's 10 by 20 wait how many gazebos are there there's which gazebo are you talking about the one near the pool there's a gazebo your guy said that's a Gaza that's 10 by 20 that's yeah that's no that's 10 x 20 yes that's correct that's you're right okay you got a 10 by 20 thing on a piece of concrete you're arguing that's not a structure and you can easily remove it I'm asking this with definition of structures which one are you talking about on this one the other one one he would know that one you said he wrong no I thought he was talking about the first one that's why let's let's label the things we're talking about right so this one you think that's 12 by I don't know that doesn't look 12 by 20 we take your word for it 915 I'm trying to figure some way out of this put dimensions on the plan it's still 800 right it's under 800 as you were saying I don't know that's what I'm asking you it is if he says it's 12 by 20 let's say I agree and the other one say what is 12 by 20 is how many square feet 240 huh 240 240 10 by 20 for the Gazebo is 200 are there any other structures out there none that I can see why don't we do this why don't we ask them to get the drawing correct the whole thing again we're just looking at other things that have come before the board and we've agreed to approve something and then six months later the applicants come back and is upset they didn't what they're saying is have the plat have this plot plan revised okay to put actual dimensions on the shed actual dimensions on the Gazebo you have actual dimensions on the proposed accessory structure okay okay then they'll know exactly what they're approving you you do not have to revise this because there's going to be a condition great saying that you have to reduce this to 20 feet correct yep so then we so then when anyone want to is anyone saying he's got to revise these or you're you're satisfied here to have the condition saying it's got to be conditions under 20t we're good from my understanding um if if I can ask a question you're asking for why why are you asking for the the size of those struct they asking for the dimensions of the structures so when they they know what variance they're granting they know how exactly how many square feet it's not going to say we Grant the variance to allow you to have the proposed accessory structure because we know it's going to be over 800 square feet it's going to say we're granting a variance to let you have a total of x square feet which would include the shed at 240 if that's what your surveyor says the gazebo at 200 if that's what your surveyor says and the shed at500 can we simply not do that math now I mean he's already testified that this is the he has testif he has used a scale it's up to the board if you want to do that you can but if you do that for him someone else asks to have it done how do you say no to the other person see the thing is we have to you know we have to specifically say we're granting you relief to go to this number from X you need the exact number yes from X to Y they don't know the X because and they don't know the why you didn't pull permits for those where we might have known the zoning officer could have pulled that we would have known the size if permits were pulled they the dimensions would have been on there correct so and the shed would have been denied right because the shed in a non-compliant location but he didn't put the shed in but it doesn't matter yeah right so the shed was on the by the way that shed was on the last survey when we bought the house okay does that mean that it's you didn't come that means that that guy didn't come in to get a permit oh he didn't get it either okay yeah yeah so what's what's the the problem with the shed is it too close to the line or is it it's had to be 15 ft off the line it's very close but no cigar it is 14.4 to one line and 14.43% or the board to figure this out we want a professional who signs and seals right to tell them what it is and then they Grant the relief and they know exactly what you have right and what they're what they're approving to so that the guy who spoke before um Mr militano his point is well taken right then you know exactly what's being approved and there's going to be reasons I assume the reasons are going to be that you're going to be under 800 square feet for the two things you have there now what's going to send you over is the pole bar right but they're going to find that they're really good reasons to go over on the pole barn because a you're going to be storing Vehicles so they're not outside which is an aesthetic benefit to the neighborhood and B you're going to be doing this indoor garden thing which is good for the environment but and and having said that and they're going to have conditions on it so it can't be commercial so you're not going to be doing sales so this stays residential because you're in a residential area and you have two people living behind you you got lot two owned by the Sherwin and lot one owned by Sullivan I don't even know where oh melano owns the lot which is next to you to your pool but so that your neighbors aren't negatively impacted and I didn't want to say this before but if anything over 20 feets the rule that means anyone who moves into lot two or lot one has an expectation that a a structure is not going to be closer than 15 feet to the your property line which gives them 15 foot like buffer from it and B that it's not more than 20 feet right in actuality if you have an A-frame it's going to look more than 20 feet but you're lucky because the township ordinance measures height to the midpoint okay but so those are the expectations so when these guys they're looking at your situation and saying there's a good reason but they have to look it's this thing called so you've shown positive Criterion for why they should Grant it but they can't even if you prove the positive they can't granted unless there's no negative the negative are all the people all your neighbors that live around and that's why the 20 foot thing is like really important and that's why the board made or didn't make but that's why the person who wanted the uh Pool Patio to be closer than 15t that's why she's going to have to Lop off yeah the corner of her patio it's expectations of your neighbors that live around you well taken right I mean his point is well taken as well that you we don't want to set a precedent where you know one house want to set a precedent where one house you know kind of he said his neighbor his point was well taken that you don't want to set a precedent right so with that in mind uh moving forward so do you plans yeah have any idea of how long it would take dis guided to do that no uh I don't um but I'll get it done quickly um hey John I do have a couple of other questions yeah well if anyone has any other questions before he comes back yeah ask him now so Jeff item eight because I don't want him to come back and surprise him again are we okay with item eight yes item made is fine if that if the applicant chooses to expand okay how about item 12 which I didn't know why it was there but yeah item 12 is storm water will be requireed ired as the Improvement is over a th000 square ft H what does that mean so this is a new requirement that the township has adopted where dudus got a brownie Point yeah ice to yeah who does he need an engineer to do this or can he do it himself engineer needs to do it okay but could this be a condition of approval or does this have to be does this have to be reviewed by the board it has it's an if it's an application to the township engineer then this could be a condition of approval so look at item 12 and Jeff report that's going to be another condition of approval but that's gonna you're gonna have to engage an engineer it's gonna be excuse me that no no he does not need that to come back when when he comes back that can be an that can be a condition of approval after he comes back he does not the board does not need to review and approve the storm order the township engineer can approve that and that can be a condition of an approval yep after he comes back but he should rasul is just bring making him aware of this so he's not caught by surprise um can you clarify that point I didn't understand number 12 so yeah the township recently adopted a minor development storm order requirement where if any Resident wants to um improve their property by a th000 square feet of impervious surface they have to mitigate it with u storm I can tell you right now you saw that other guy who was here on the other application Wayne Ingram okay not that we're endorsing anyone but Mr Ingram has designed these storm water management facilities for all the people that have come in for hard surface coverage variances so he could easily design this thing for you you do not need it before you come back here so Bas basically it's a r if you've heard of the rain Gardens basically it's the ability to mitigate storm water management in in using low impact technology so it's a Swale with uh plants and things like that is one of the techniques that's used it's in case there's a a lot of like a flash flood or something like that that it's it goes in the right spot and it doesn't take everything with it flooding your neighbors or whatever it might be you put a big block here you might exactly yeah gotcha gotta so that that's a requirement because we're seeing a lot of flooding flooding flooding throughout the Township in the last few years okay so in conjunction with the zoning permit you're GNA be submitting an engineered plan which is going to be reviewed within that time limit prior to a construction permit okay so I understand the this thing does not required before the next meeting is that correct incorrect I do not need it for the next meeting but I will need it for the construction permit correct okay which I would want to do anyway right and then the last one Jeff this is for you is number 14 do you have any ideas what you were thinking about so you can maybe yeah especially when I went to the the site visit yesterday with my second report is that there are at least two trees that have to come down if you have plans of taking more down do you have plans taking more down no more than needed no more than just needed for that you plan on rep planting any of them um not those kinds no not those kinds so except the board can put a condition on approval that for every tree that he took down he's got to plant a new one somewhere one one of those trees is dead first of all um and the other ones are kind of shaky uh that's why I'm not planning on putting those kinds of trees but we've already put three to four trees on the property you could impose a condition saying that he's got to have some kind of landscape thing or landscape buffering in accordance with John Thomas but that's only if he had setback he's willing he's not he does not have a setback variance he's agreeing to move the shed out so that that would not have a setback variance and in the past the only time you guys have required as a condition Landscaping is when you're granting a setback variance which you're not going to be granting here so this is a non well this is up to the board if the board want look if the board said if you take down trees we want trees planted you know one for one that's a separate issue you could do that all I'm saying this is not a screening this is not a landscape screening issue right I I'm not an aricultural but and we are going to be passing a new ordinance require as required by the state on on tree removal but it does allow and these the tree in the very center of it does look like the Dead one and then the one that's leaning significantly does look like a high Hazard tree so they would qualify for removal just from a a safety perspective that's what we were thinking yeah yeah so I just want to be clear no surprises yes so there you're saying that the trees can be removed and I'm saying that the trees need to be removed because yes one one is dead and the other one is as you said leaning yeah so that's a non-issue as I understand send it but if there is and just second Donna's point if there is a Township ordinance then it would have to just yeah once that gets it hasn't been approved yet but it put it this way no it did it did on Tuesday oh it did I sent my I sent my letter from the it didn't I was at the township committee meeting they tabled it yeah they tabled it oh yeah that's right along with they taed it they table it put it this way hold up hold on hold on If This Were a site plan application which it's not right if this was a site plan application and you granted site plan approval he'd be protected against ordinance changes but because this is not a site plan application and this is merely a c variance application he will not be protected against ordinance changes they're just giving you a heads up that if at the time you go to pool permits that ordinance has been adopted you will be subject to it right but the ordinance does does allow or when the ordinance is adopted if there's a high-hazard situation or an unhealthy tree you're allowed to take that down put it this way for purposes of his application in front of the board of adjustment in my opinion you guys don't have to mention it she's just being giving you another heads up so you're not surprised down the road you know someone accused him of you know the first person was very surprised we don't want you saying you're surprised about anything right we're throwing a kitchen sink at you so you can't be surprised thank you for all the [Music] information anyone have anything else they might want to tell them it's all incredibly useful we're good we just got to pick a date now the way I see things if he makes these changes to this plan and I hope I don't jinx us if this thing takes more than 15 minutes there's a big problem yes because let me just not that it's a well you can actually do a pre- deliberation on the positive Criterion I mean I assume from judging what you guys are saying is for all those reasons that I thought you were thinking but you haven't said it that you think he's that at least as to the exceeding the square footage even though we don't know the exact amount you believe that there are C2 benefits I would agree with that anybody have any anybody else we agree and before you say that they substantially outweigh the detriment you just want to see what the square footage is and as long as all these conditions are imposed there's no negative because he's bringing it down to 20 ft and he's bringing the shed into compliance am I correct y y and he's agreed no commercial use of the space it's not going to be habitable for humans to occupy it it's not going to sing there nobody's living there nobody he's not going to be selling any of this as he grows and he's to all that absolutely correct so that mind so you just hold off on the negative but when we come back whatever date we pick if this takes you guys more than 15 minutes shame on you do you have a date well I mean if that's the case it just depends on when you get the r next available if I could yeah but put it this way if we give you the next available and he doesn't and you don't have this then go to the next one after that is that what happens yeah so yeah I'm okay with that well when is the next available well I mean he could do if it's if it really does take us more than 15 minutes yeah that's a shame but if it takes us less then I don't see why he couldn't be on the next May meeting May 2nd or May 16th what do you have on May 2nd now what do you have on May 16 May 2nd is Countryside and Hunter in storage and then on the 16th is MSP Hospitality the hotel motel Thomas pulley and cassetta Stewart and 207 Everett's mono properties me too can I do the 16th actually can we push back because May 2 is going to be uh I have uh some stuff I have to do on that date okay why don't we give it a shot from May 16th put them on first the thing runs over 15 minutes they're just gonna have to or if you don't have this plan you'll have to plan okay so the announcement is the hearing on this matter is not concluded tonight it's going to be continued to May 16th but no need for further notice so you're not going to get any notice in the mail again so if you want to be here to see the continuation May 16th and if you want to make sure that everything's been submitted and it's not going to be put off again just call up tayor vaugh the board secretary um well that's another one we want to approve this just thing so you're going to wave the 21 Day rule I assume but this thing's got to be submitted 10 days before May 16th so you would have to have that in by May 6 by May 6 yeah I can I think I can do that that's yeah just so we're clear if you don't have it by May 6 you are not on for May 16th understood okay so so you guys to make sure that it's on for May 16th call on May 7th call teller on May 7th okay okay all right we do have one more item we want to cover but it'll be in a closed meeting thank you thank you thank you [Music] everyone I know you can keep [Music] it I don't know John do we have to go to the boardroom or can we stay here and just wait for everyone to you're going to go into close session yeah for attorney client advice hold on for a second it's only five minutes just clear out the [Music] room right [Music] thank you yeah you stop recording oh is that one do we just want to make a motion on the record yes so someone want to make a motion to go into Clos session to get some attorney client privilege advice where confidentiality is required so that the attorney can give the advice whereas if we were in public I wouldn't be able to I'll make a motion okay