say okay calling to order the zoning board of adjustment R and Township regular meeting April 3rd 2025 notice of meeting the notice requirements of the open public meetings act has been satisfied by the placing of
a notice of this meeting on the bulletin board of the municipal building filing same with the township clerk and transmitting same to the Hun County Democrat the Courier News Star Ledger and Trenton Times roll call please chairwoman Cynthia Schaefer here vice
Chair Melodami here mr steve Parcio here mr randy Block mr jim Ferrero here here uh Miss Lindsay Coal she's asked to be excused miss Lorettina here miss Donna
Drews here mr james Miller here board professionals board attorney Mr john Dill here township planner Mr jeffrey Bakarella here on behalf of township engineer Mr reesh Dari we have Mr ryan McCarthy here traffic consultant Mr jay Troutman here
board planner Miss Jessica Caldwell here and we have our conflict landscape architect Mr timothy and I'm gonna let him say his last name lu Kalani here how do you spell your last name k A L k A L
u H I O U H I O K A L K A L A N I A N I can you pronounce it one more time kuvio Colani we're gonna call you Tim and board secretary Taylor Vaughn we lost my video all right i don't know can I get a
motion to excuse Taylor i lost my video hold on Jim i see you i lost my video he can't see you and he's very upset about it i can't He can't see me anyway
jim we're fine you're fine you can still hear me say Zoom can I get a motion to excuse Lindsay who was that randy second
chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes vice Chair Miss Russell Odami yes mr randy Block yes mr steve Farcio yes mr jim Ferrero yes miss Lorett Cina yes right are we going to Miss Anna Drew yes
at the end okay all right thank you okay comments we want to do the board of the VA annual report this this is just me because I'm going to be drafting it within the next month or two so I just want to let you guys know and think
about any recommendations you wanted me to put in the report because I know last year we had the comment about accessory apartments and I mean you guys went in and changed chapter 296 oh just so you guys can start thinking about it so that I can put it in okay thank
you uh no announcements no distribution or correspondence minutes uh we have three closed sessions obviously we don't have minutes for it yeah we do we do thought we did mhm oh
sorry missed it okay okay can Can we postpone it till next time yeah just table it okay all three yeah please sorry thank you okay moving to the resolutions this
evening we're going to skip the first one i understand executive Snow yeah the applicant has asked Executive Snow to come off they haven't finished their review so we're going to put it on for adoption on April 17 okay all right moving to the second resolution veron
Township Board Adjustment Matthew Appeal 24 Mway Block 79.10 lot 12 application BOA-25-2024 resolution memorializing grant of a C2 variance to allow the construction of a detached twocar garage
within the sideyard setback area resolution number 2025-04 version 2025-03-28- version 2 any comments or corrections hearing none can I get a motion to approve
second can I get a roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes vice Chair Mr oil Dami yes mr randy Block yes mr steve Farcio yes mr jim Ferrero yes
Miss Rina yes Miss Donna Drew no not Miller miller james Miller oh Mr james Miller yes thank you okay moving to the next one brown Township Border Adjustment Shanti LLC 305 Route 12 block
41.01 lot 3 application BOA-17-2021 resolution memorializing a second modification of a condition of condition number 13 of resolution number 2022-11 to grant an extension of the time period to obtain construction
permit to November 4th 2025 resolution number 2024-17 version 2025-03-30- version 2 any comments or corrections hearing none can I get a motion to approve so moved second give
me a roll call please who is that the second Randy chairwoman Cynthia Schaefer yes vice Chair Mr ouami yes mr randy Block miss Jim Ferrero yes miss Donna Drews yes mr
james Miller yes okay moving to the next one rarity Township Board of Adjustment Pen Partners LLC block 71 lots 8 and 8.01 180 NSH SH31 and Highway US Highway 202
application number VA-15-2022 resolution memorializing a modification of condition number one of resolution number 2023-09 to allow an extension of the time period to obtain signatures on the site plans to June 7 2025 resolution
number 2024-18 version 2025-03-30 version two any corrections or changes hearing none can I get a motion to approve second can I get a roll call please i'm
going give that to James sorry Donna chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaer yes vice Chair Mr silami yes mr randy Block yes mr mr jim Ferrero yes miss Donna Drews yes mr james Miller
yes okay moving on to the next resolution mar Township Board adjustment nicholas Caracapia block 37 lot 2 14 River Road application number VA BOA-06-2022 resolution memorializing
modification of condition number 8 of the resolution number 2023-15 for extension of time to obtain per permanent certification of occupancy to December 27 2025 resolution number
2024-20 version 2025-03-30- version 2 any updates or changes hearing none can I get a motion to approve second okay roll sorry Jim you missed it chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaeer yes vice Chair Mr sodami
yes mr randy Block mr jim Ferrero yes miss Lorettina yes miss Anna Drew yes okay moving to the next resolution ron Township Porter Adjustment Apex Treatment Center 6 Minion Road block
16.01 lot 69.03 03 application BOA-08-2022 resolution memorializing modification of condition number four of the resolution number 2022-05 for extension of time to commence construction and obtain a
permit certifi certificate of occupancy to January 2nd 2026 resolution number 2024-21 version 2025-03-31- version Three any changes updates or corrections hearing none can I get a
motion to approve roll call please chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes vice Chair Mr damchi yes mr randy Block yes mr jim Ferrero yes miss Lorett Cina yes miss Donna
Drews yes okay am I reading this whole resolution John yes I think we actually should just even though it's going to be published just so everyone can hear it okay township board of adjustment resolution governing certain application
and hearing procedures whereas NJSA4- col 50- 55D-10B provides that a board shall make rules governing hearings on applications and raron township board of adjustments
the board adoption adopted rules and regulations governing hearings on application during its annual rec reorganization meeting on January 6 2025 whereas board rule 50 5 col 4-1 provides that the
board may from time to time amend any part or parts of the rules and regulations at any regular meeting provided notice of the consideration of any such amendment has been given in writing and or electronically to each member of the board at at least three
days prior to such meeting and let me editorial comment notice was given electronically to all board members three days prior to this evening and I'm going to take this over for you i'm going to speed read it whereas the board now wishes to amend the rules and reg regulations to add the following and the
board will incorporate the following into its rules and regulations at the appropriate time and wants to make these changes at this time so as to make the following rules effective immediately now therefore the board by motion duly made and seconded on April 3 2025 hereby
amends its rules and regulations to add the following rules governing certain applications and hearing procedures now I'm going to read them slowly number one any exhibits which an applicant intends to introduce during a hearing must be provided to the board secretary
electronically at least 4 days prior to the hearing at which the exhibits will be introduced the applicant shall bring paper copies of the exhibits to the hearing number two for all non-residential and all residential applications other than applications for
single family or two family dwellings the applicant must provide a court reporter at the hearing and must provide the board secretary with a transcript of the hearing number three for residential applications involving single family or two family dwellings the board will provide for a court reporter at the
hearing and may arrange for a transcript if the board so wishes number four transcripts of hearings may be incorporated by reference and attached to the meeting minutes to be used as the minutes of those portions of meetings devoted to hearings and number five
applicants may request no more than one pre-application meeting with board professionals the request must be in writing and must be accompanied by a written agenda and/or list of questions to be discussed no pre-application meeting will be shall be held unless the
applicant first deposits money into an escrow account to cover all professional fees anticipated for attendance at the meeting so that's the proposed resolution and if it's adopted I'm going to suggest that the board secretary email it out to every applicant's
attorney that appears before the board but we'll eventually incorporate this into the board's you know large set of rules okay can I get a motion to approve i don't move it wait wait time i'm sorry Lorett go ahead
oh okay i'm sorry roll call please sorry Jim you missed it again chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer yes vice Chair Mr rulami yes mr randy Block yes mr jim Ferrero oh I'm
so sorry mr c faria i'm so sorry yes mr jim Ferrero yes miss Lorett Crita yes miss Donna Drew yes yes sir okay moving on to the first application for this evening boe case number 12-
2020 applicant is the Fudge Shop Land Group LLC location block 36 lot 65 10 Milbbor Place application for a minor site plan with Dvarian for manufacturing use and residential use in a B3 zone
you want me to read the letter yeah John I wasn't sure if you wanted me to read the letter I sent Mr why don't you read it okay all right this is a letterhead that I sent to Mr scott Bullock the attorney for the fled shop stated March 28th 2025
dear Mr full please be advised that this letter of correspondence is to confirm the following information on the above mentioned application at the February 6th 2025 meeting it was announced that the application will be pencled to the April 17th 2025
um depending on the applicants professionals will be submitting additional materials application to the board for review 21 days prior to the meeting date which was March 27th 2025 our office has not received any materials to date as previously stated
both the chair and vice chair the board will not wave the board's 21-day submission rule we prefer sufficient time for the board of professionals members and township agencies to review such materials we will have this application listed on the April 3rd meeting to announce the application
being scheduled to a future pending date in parenthesis depending on if you provide a response we ask the applicant grants a time extension for the board to act on this application to the end of September 2025 please remember that a new notice is required for the future
hearing and then I provided future dates for him and read the last email he sent back at the end of the day today okay well actually he did send a letter dated March 31st 2025 just stating "Miss Vaughn the applicant bud shop requests
that their variance application be placed on the calendar for the June 19th 2025 meeting date." But yet he didn't respond to my time extension request to which he sent an email to me and everybody else today April 3rd 2025 saying "Applicant the Fled Shop consents
to and grants an extension until August 1st 2025 not September." like I asked so what do you want to do you said June June 19th they're they're available they're available that's what he's available too and then if they meet
the 21 days they Yeah they need the 21 days can they meet the 21 days i don't know well are we going to acknowledge Wait this gentleman here are we going really put it this way if he doesn't meet it oh well then oh well
they're off and then you'll have to deal with it and then I would make them renotice at that point and not they have to notice anyway they have to They have to notice huh one plan two projects
it was going to be two two applications but one plan because the fudge shop was included two applications two applications put it this way i think it's I thought they were just going to include the the FUD i
think it's too early in the process to say this is getting messed up dismiss it without prejudice start from scratch too early in the process for that okay so listen you asked for an extension to September
you didn't really gave you one to August maybe we let it slide this time but next time if it happens we're like you have to send the message back to the applicant attorney that they're not too pleased they try to bend over backwards with the schedule they're trying to cut down the number of things scheduled so
when they hear it they can finish it and uh they're not feeling it well my question would be do you think it do you think it was intentional you think it meant September 1st i don't I don't know maybe just got the date wrong i don't know that doesn't sound I
mean I don't know as an attorney I think that's kind of ridiculous if you're talking about 30 days like I'm hoping he just got the date wrong right can we check that the reason he was asked for that amount of time was because another application
has understood but I I don't know did he think he was just going to just tell us well listen listen you don't get you're not getting the whole story the the first email back was like "We can send to an extension." Didn't have a date on it so then I got involved they said "Wait a minute you
got to send an email with yeah you're going to grant an extension and put the date in writing." And then he put the August date in writing and I had too many things to do today to get in a little argument i'm just hoping I'm just hoping it was the wrong date if you want me to I will ask him again yeah you know
what ask him again tell him the board wanted September and he gave till August and so Okay time it relay the message no no let he he can relay the message but whatever communication we have can we do this in
writing because it is in writing okay okay so so you send them Taylor's going to send him an email saying no August is not acceptable we want September i'll send a letter yeah i would just say the remind us until September 1st that's
what we asked for are you saying that you're only giving us to August 1st that's what I want to know i meant the end of September september 30th then September 30th i would like to know if he got confused i'm hoping he got confused i'm sure he
did okay just to clarify um Taylor asked me a question we're going to go into close session after you want to yeah when don't we go into close session after after okay okay i was just asking so far
so this isn't officially being correct this is not being carried um we we're assigning a hearing date but it was supposed to be assigned based on an extension to a certain time which
wasn't granted and she'll ask again but it let's let's give him that hearing date no matter what okay all right moving on to the second application for this evening bo case number 2023 applicant Flemington Family Partnership LLC block
72.23 lots 31 and 31.01 324 and 328 highway 202 preliminary and final site plan with D variance and bulk variances for a proposed car dealership good evening adam Sherman members of the
board Cara Kazinski of McNal Yaros Kazinski and Lime here tonight representing the applicant Flemington Family Partners L Partnership LLC uh we are back here tonight with regard to the properties located at 324 and 328
Highway 202 block 72 lot 23 lots 31.01 and 31 uh as a quick recap for the board before we do the recap I just want to make sure I do something before I forget we swore in Rakkesh last time but
we have Ryan tonight so I want to Ryan give me your last name again that one I can spell raise your right hand do you swear the testimony you're going in this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth and Tim we got you last time
thank you okay uh so as a quick recap we're looking to relocate our existing Nissan and Toyota dealerships from their current locations on Route 31202 to the subject properties uh we require conditional use variance approval we
need two D1 use variances and along with some bulk variances and design waiverss uh you'll hear further testimony with regard to all of those once we have our planner testify for you but all of those pieces of relief were discussed last time and are outlined in your uh
professionals report um we were here last on February 6th and at that meeting you heard testimony from our applicants representative Tony Geian and our engineer Kelly Ouch and tonight you will hear limited follow-up testimony from
both of them to address some of the questions and concerns that we left with that night and also to address uh some additional comments that were within the board professionals letters that we had received by that point but before you do that let's talk about signage because if
you are you okay let's go ahead then you'll hear testimony from Mr james Necker our architect who will also provide answers to some of your questions regarding the existing square footages and cars at the existing locations versus the proposed square
footage and you'll also see some elevations and that he will testify to and signage information so time so we got signage today right we got something today if you just give me two more
seconds I'll I'll just explain to you um the signage that we have definitive information on which includes height square footage and design have been on the engineers plans since day one are not changing and will be testified and
confirmed tonight what we do not have full confirmation of from the manufacturers because they are still making changes is the building signage what we are proposing to do for the board is to show you what we have by way
of design and location and what it looks like on the existing buildings but we fully understand that we are not prepared tonight to provide you with square footage and specific information to approve building signage on the right
so the question is why spend the time even talking about the signage until you have the details that's what I was just going to say if you don't want me to go into that tonight I perfectly will not i have no problem with that um we can address it at the next meeting if by that point in time we do have the
definitive information if not we will appear for amended approval no no no no no okay look I want to get the board they're trying to streamline and make everything efficient yes to get an approval and then have to come back for
an amended approval is not efficient i thought you guys were in a rush they are but we can't present information that we don't have okay okay time out i want to ask the board members one side of me says it's good to
hear the other side of me says I'm done i I I just We need process we need efficiency i we can't keep repeating things so I I I want to hear from the board what we want to do about signage about signage
about signage do we wait and wait till they have the final rep the the final decision on what they want to represent or do we hear something tonight and then hear it again and I'm just going to go down the line james your thoughts
my guess is there's enough material to keep us here until no we're not talking about the rest of the case let's talk about signage just signage just signage you want to hear signage and have to hear it again or to tell them hold the signage till you know what you're doing with it and they have they still have an engineer that's going to testify and
they have the the owners the uh applicant's rep that's going to testify we got so much to get through why don't we just wait until we have all the information then and that's perfectly fine that's why that's one person that's one person randy I I would wait i would wait jim
I would wait russell wait okay okay now the wait right so you heard that the board's tightening things up absolutely heard it all so when that signage stuff gets submitted it can't First of all you want the board to approve it yep so if you
submit it as exhibits and it's not on the plans that can't be approved period if you want them to approve it as shown on a document that you would otherwise call an exhibit you got to file it 21 days ahead to be able to get them to approve it understood okay the other
thing I want to ask is I I received a text late today that you would not have people here tonight has things changed and you do have people to testify tonight oh we do yes we have our as I said our representative to follow up questions our engineer and our architect
to deal with the other square footage information and his other testimony other than signage we will push signage until the next meeting hey Cynthia I'm sorry did I hear something that we
don't have complete set of team to it no no they have they don't have their traffic expert okay so you're not going to hear traffic testimony they don't have the architect because the architect was going to Oh who else so they don't have signage they don't have the traffic guy correct our planner is here but he
Right but but the planner goes last so they do have their engineer who's going to go over some still remaining issues they He never finished his entire testimony right and he didn't finish his testimony anyway and they have the applicant's rep here to go over a couple things that the board asked last time correct
so maybe we don't finish at 10:00 and we finish earlier that wouldn't be such a bad thing before we go before we go we're going to have we're going to have to finish earlier because we have to go into close session right that's true right you're right we have to finish by let's say 9:30 the latest to go into
close session 9 9 the latest to go into close session okay but I I didn't we have people didn't we did maybe I'm wrong did we stop people from didn't people in the audience have questions for Mr geian or No am I wrong am I wrong
on it well I could be wrong i mean I'm not going to lie i don't remember seeing you guys last time there are members of the audience these guys are No no all the way in the back everyone in this room is with us so just want to make clear that there my
understanding is there's no one here from the public right now correct i mean there are people here for the public for to to Well put it this way is there anyone here in the audience that's not somehow related to the property or the application you guys are all related to
the property back there like you have the property owners representative back there so there's no interested parties other than the property owner's representatives all right i think that's important to have on the record for all sides so Okay
okay we're ready hey Cynthia cynthia i'm sorry go ahead i have a process issue uh considering so I I just need to put it in the records considering what we went through from getting things efficient uh cara it will be so and
things happen okay I totally understand that but I am disappointed that it is kind of messing up the process from an efficiency point of view whether things are not complete or whatever so I'm a little disappointed I understand things
happen but maybe in the future we do a better job at We will do we will have everything squared away plenty of time and in full before our next hearing great okay take it away thank you actually
before you go ahead okay um the two board members Miss Lorett Cina and Mr james Miller they were not here for the February 6th hearing so they did sign their affidavit stating that they did listen to the taped recording and they are eligible to vote which will not be
happening tonight but in the future great thank you you're welcome a minute taylor I need to reactivate my video how do I do that okay Jim you're going to hit the red button saying end the meeting end the
meeting and then join the meeting again so pop out and then pop back in give me a minute to do that yep and Jim's actually correct because if he wants to participate he has to be able to see and hear not just hear right
we have to be able to see and hear him can you hear me now yeah we can just you got to end the meeting we've heard you or you got to find the video button and click it i got it okay i have the video back
video i can hear you jim are you there or not now I just I kicked him out okay good he's He should know to come back in [Music] okay let me ask you're saying the signage is on the plants
a little earlier on the process right stop losing my mind see if you can find the pylon i have a lot of Can you ask what sheet the pylon signage is on it has to be because Jessica has
towards the end second to last page or something like that shake 29 okay we only have one rule maybe he thinks maybe we think maybe he thinks we sent him home imagine okay so
there he is cara hey Jim you back jim can you hear us he's muted you're muted Jim can't hear you oh Carara yes some I believe the architectural plans
were emailed in we don't have a paper copy and what else was emailed in without a paper copy i'm unmuted no Jim I can hear you now can you see us yes I can hear you and I can hear you huh great thank you i understand i just
want to tell you what we have so we don't have a problem next time i have I have paper copies here of everything I was going to use with the signage and the elevation no no stop stop stop forget about what you emailed today y forget about that
okay when were the architectural plans emailed okay we don't have a paper copy of those architecturals those are 8 by10 i mean guys do you have a fulls size set of the architecturals that were
emailed in or not i printed them probably December well did did you send them in we don't have them we never got them okay what else was emailed in that we don't have a paper copy of
besides the exhibits I believe it's just the floor plan was miss they were missing a component okay okay so listen forget the exhibits the floor plan aren't Isn't that part of the architecturals yes okay so that's what we don't have paper
that's never we've never had full never had orch because they have not changed no we I remember there were comments uh even from the beginning we never even got footprints in the beginning or any of the technical reports sign
okay any other housekeeping okay ready hopefully every time I say it something else happens but ready to go let's see what happens i'd like to call the applicant's representative Mr tony Gianati mr gianetti you were sworn in to testify
on February 6 and you remain under oath have a seat Tony all right at the end of the last meeting there were some questions that the board had i'm going to take care of you some of them will be answered by our architect some by our engineer and some
are on the revised plans but there's just a couple that I'd like you to testify to um there was a question as to why we need this size of development and the number of cars and specifically the question was have sales decreased
overall since 2015 you mean why so many parking spaces for cars that's what you mean yes [Music] so have they decreased overall since 2015 i I spoke to Mr beans the other day and on a whole
he said that that has not that has not been the case but that's taking in American foreign trucks every type of vehicle that would be produced by a manufacturer why are so many parking spaces needed on this site that's the question okay can I
Okay um the engineer and the architect will also testify as to specifics but is it correct that the total square footage of the dealerships are actually decreasing yes it is okay is it correct that the
current existing square footage of both dealerships is 82,720 ft that's correct and the proposed square footage for the dealerships is 61,897 square feet that's correct okay so again the overall square footage of
both dealerships is decreasing on the proposed site from what's existing yes it is okay and how about the number of parking spaces for cars overall service employee um uh inventory is that increasing or decreasing it's pretty
much a rush okay um do you know do you recall what the numbers are of what's existing and what's proposed no off the top of my head I don't i'm sorry um what it 474 existing to 484 as proposed does that sound about right that sounds correct that sounds
numbers question service well there were a number of questions so this I'm just dealing right now with number of spaces ask the question again the number of parking spaces existing on your existing
Nissan Toyota site is what i I don't know that off the top so if I told you it was 474 does that sound about correct that's very close yes okay and is that increasing to 484 does that sound about right correct
that was the question okay so even though he doesn't know you're saying assume that you have 474 spaces because someone must have told you that who told you that they're on the plants you'll see it on the existing correct okay the existing
I'm sorry i'm sorry the existing is not on the plans the existing is on this exhibit that the architect prepared that people okay and you're saying that on the plan show 484 spaces correct now here's my
question to the witness of the 474 spaces on the existing site how many are occupied on a daily basis and how many are open exactly i wouldn't be able to to answer that correctly but at least um on
all of our dealerships we probably have a 10 to 15% vacancy on the spaces i think what the board's going to want to know is if you're moving a dealership from one site to this site and they want to know why you need so many parking spots on this site they're going to want
to know in fact how many of the 474 spaces on the existing site are unoccupied do you really need all those additional spaces on this site i have an aerial that the architect secured that shows the existing site and the parking
spaces and what's vacant and what's not it's from October of last year but I'm just the logic here is the size of the building is going down correct but the number of spaces in the new is
going up there's an inverse relationship to those two things you would assume that the number of parking spaces and display spaces needed would go down okay i now I understand your question so uh the
reason for the reduction in square footage on the existing site is what what is that reason let me put it scratch that does Mr beans and the operations use the entirety of the square footage on the current site of
both dealerships at any given time there could be those spaces would be occupied not the spaces the square footage of the buildings are they too large for your operations no no they're not the existing the existing buildings are but planned buildings will not be correct so the question is the existing buildings
are they larger than what you need yes okay the proposed buildings are the right size for what you need they're right size for the way the brand is requiring us to design the insides of the building yes okay and the parking
spaces are sufficient on what's existing and proposed every every type of parking space whether it be service new car inventory used car inventory um dealer prep delivery areas yes so that what they
asked you last time was could you come back and see if you could decrease the number of spaces on the existing on the proposed site and your answer is no you don't want to reduce any of the spaces less than what we had last time correct
so the answer is no you don't want to reduce any that's correct okay yes i would yeah um listen that's their answer yeah yeah i believe that but I I I I hope we'll get some additional clarity about it when you hear the
additional actual right instead of estimates you gota you show your picture from one day in October it's but it's up to you on what type of proofs to put in like you do a a study for you know x number of days or a month of how many
extra spaces do you have because if you typically he said you typically have 10 to 15% vacancy rate so if you know you have a typical 10 to 15% vacancy rate the board's thinking well why don't you cut down 10 to 15% of the 484 spaces but
that's going to be up to you answer that it's it's a it's a a a place in time you know in the morning when everybody's dropping their cars off for service that that ratio may go down to 5% or 3% vacant vacant space how many people come
in each day for service in the morning how many cars i don't know that answer more than 50 i think that would be a good 50 would be a good number so 50 cars each day for service
so you should give the board a breakdown of how many of these 484 spaces are being used for service how many for customer parking how many for employee parking how many for whatever how many for inventory parking so they can see
exactly how all the spaces are being used to determine if you really need them okay i think that's on our revised yeah we have that all in a revised okay so why are you asking him these questions then i mean you ask I'm just setting up the foundation okay okay i'm
sorry um there was one item outstanding i'm sorry there was also a question as to how you will maintain the poorest pavement uh with cars traveling travel traveling over it um the engineer will testify as to the specifics but what I would like to get on the record for the
board's edification is you have porous pavement at other locations correct yes we do okay and you know because you have them at other locations how to maintain them and what they require in order to be maintained well is that correct that's correct okay and then my final question is there was a item in the
board planner's latest letter revised through March 31 2025 on page 25 that stated um that no motor vehicle parts or inoperative motor vehicles shall be stored outside you willing to make that representation as a condition to the
board yes we can clarification i'm sorry yes clarification question when um you say that you have horse pavement at other sites is the parking layout and the storage of vehic
not not to that level um the other locations are stacked two to three okay you got a question uh next witness is Mr kelly Ouch cleo Such was also sworn in on February 6 and
you remain under oath yes for the record we're not asking if there are any questions from the public because we already ascertained there's no public here the only people here are with the landlord so if you guys want to ask any questions you got to like raise your hands or something like that so we know
okay uh Kelly you testified at the last meeting um you did not finish your testimony we also revised the drawings that are currently before the board um so does the board have any preference as to whether you'd like him to finish his testimony go through what the revisions
are does it matter to you well if he can finish his testimony that's is my thought yeah and then do the revisions because assuming that the finishing of the testimony will then not be revised right yes correct so whatever you haven't testified to show based on the
revisions and then we can go back to the prior testimony okay so at the last hearing I started off with the existing conditions went through the the conditions at the property the topography the site constraints on the property the two properties uh talked
about the um the two streams and the state regulated areas on the property the existing slopes on the property uh and then eventually got into the proposed site conditions um and namely that we have the two proposed car dealerships we went into the the size of
the structures the floor area of the structures um and I think where I kind of left off was getting into the site access and the circulation of the the site um so the the site is accessed or proposed to be accessed off of uh State
Highway Route 202 um and it's going to have a common drive access with uh lot 31.01 um and I think I did kind of testify to this at the last hearing but that driveway will also serve any future development on lot
31.01 and that was a um an part of an agreement of the original subdivision of these two properties um so the the main access drive or shared access drive will be a 30- foot
wide drive it'll be curbed and it'll meet the township standards um there is a proposed covert that is being uh proposed at the existing stream in the front uh or
the northern portion of the property uh that box covert has been reviewed and approved by D under both the flood hazard rules and the freshwater wetland rules um and is still a a valid permit um and then as we come into the
site there's two driveway openings as I'll call them accessing lot 31 uh both of those driveway openings are 25 foot wide um uh one on the northern portion and one on the southern portion of the
property uh as you access through the southern portion of the site there's a two-way access drive that circulates uh to the east um and then eventually to the north and then back to the west and then you could exit back out to that
secondary access point along the uh main access drive that I was talking about on 202 um as far as the parking on the site uh the ordinance has three criteria for
dealerships on how they come up with the required number of parking uh the first is the number of employees uh the second is the size of the showroom and the third is the amount of service bays being proposed based on those three
different criteria the ordinance requirement for parking on the site is 294 what the applicant is proposing is 297 parking stalls that would be dedicated to satisfy the parking
requirement in addition to that there's 187 stalls that are being proposed as vehicle storage vehicle display for the dealership use uh so on sheet 8A that I'm referencing on the
filed plans we have the green stalls as the quoteunquote parking stalls and the pink stalls would be the vehicle storage or uh overflow parking stalls can I ask something
because what you're trying to say is that the stuff on your chart is required storage under the ordinance there is as far as I understand the ordinance there is no required amount of overflow or vehicle storage number it's just the
parking requirement based on the use and number of employees okay because if you add up all those numbers on that chart do you come to 484 yes okay so you're saying on the chart sheet
8 day is probably a better sheet if I don't know what you're looking at i think you're talking about Yes okay so I understand total number of vehicle storage display right correct so you have a
total number of parking spaces required 294 then another total number of parking spaces required 297 now that's what is being provided oh provided got it okay sorry didn't mean to get lost in
the weeds there um all No I got lost in the weeds you know what you were doing i did all parking stalls would be curbed um and the islands would be curbed as well that are proposed uh as part of this and on again
on sheet 8A it illustrates it I think pretty well we are proposing to stack parking stalls uh so there's a double stack along the frontage uh along the northern portion um and then there's a five stack on the
bottom and again we've kind of dedicated the quote unquote display and um storage vehicles within these stacked areas because the manufacturer and the owner and operator of the site will have the most control over those cars that are
placed in those areas so if there is concern about accessing and getting in and out of the stacked area those dedicated areas can be utilized and maintained directly by the owner and the operator uh all parking areas are
greater than the 15t setback requirement per the ordinance um we do propose landscaped islands but we do not meet the requirement to have a landscaped island for every eight stall
so we do need relief from that standard uh the site also proposes uh one loading area it's 130 by 20 ft wide uh it's proposed in the rear of the Nissan building
um the ordinance based on the requirement would require five loading areas uh we think that's overkill so we're just asking for relief from providing extra loading areas uh the operations is from our understanding is
more than cut off with the one loading area all right so site signage and I'm only going to be talking about the pylon signs uh so there are two pylon signs proposed one for the Toyota dealership and one for the Nissan dealership they
are both proposed along the northern portion of the property uh and they kind of bookend on that same sheet 8A that 50 row parking stall in the front on the if you're looking at the plan left and
right of the plan it's a quick question you might not know the answer why was it so easy for them to tell you exactly what was required for the pylons but not for the building signage i don't know the answer to that honestly do you know the answer to that i don't
okay what exactly is a pylon sign a freestanding sign yes ground mounted up on a They're no longer just poles they're like fancy things now okay i guess I That's why they call them
pylon signs instead of polemounted sign concrete monument yes or a concrete monument sign could you point out where they are i see the one but I don't really see the other one yeah so if you're looking on you how about on the TV you want to go
on the TV yeah the thing gets blocked out there's one here one little rectangles on the end of each of the pink so the one on the right hand side is seems extreme it's smaller the
one on the right hand side looks larger than the one on the left that's the hot box we'll get into that later okay so the general dimensions of the two signs so for the Toyota sign which if you're looking on that plan is on the left hand side uh it's 25 ft tall
physically from the base of the sign to the top of the sign uh and the sign and logo area is 8 feet x 5 feet or 40 square feet and it's double-sided uh but per the township ordinance
uh there's a definition that if these signs are mounted um in a location that's more than 3 ft above the curb line you got to measure it from the curb line to the top of the sign so the that sign is proposed at 45 ft per the ordinance but again physically from the
base to the top it's 25 ft what page are the details of the 29 26 29 Okay little puppies what I'm sorry what relief needed uh the height because while 25 ft is the
allowable in the zone and they are physically 25 ft from the base to the top the ordinance has a provision that if where they're located is more than three feet above the curb line you got to measure it from the curb line to the
top of the sign so where these are mounted is greater than 3 ft above the curb line which effectively makes these signs 45 ft tall for the ordinance requirements correct say that again you have to speak into
this microphone or you'll be reprimanded the total height of the actual sign is 25 but he he's correct that because there's there's a difference in in grade of of greater than 3T from the curb line they have to account for the
additional height so 20 ft so it it's an ordinance provision so while the general height of the sign meets the 25 ft requirement by the ordinance we are seeking a 40 we're
saying that the height is 45 ft high based on the ordinance definition [Music] hey Jeff I have a question jeff I have a question for you go ahead
Russell um the reason for the ordinance is because of the visually how it would look right because of the grade and all that the thing I'm confused about is the difference between 3T and
what you're saying is should be 25 and it's 45 so what am I missing visually no well the the the proposed elevation at where the sign is mounted is approximately because at that location of 202 is losing grade going down to uh
the intersection so they cut in the road and we have to fill on the front to make grade work so the elevation from the road to where the sign is mounted there is like a 12 to 15 foot grade difference
depending on where you go that's why difference of 20 correct and uh so I'm asking Jeff from a township point of view and from a because I can't visualize because to me that's a big big difference so again
it's about facade and about how it looks yeah unless there's a site drawing or sight line drawing or exhibit showing it we would have to Yeah we'd have to see it the answer is if you want to see it ask them to do a sighteline drawing otherwise you're saying you can't
visualize it none of us can visualize it i think the only person in the room that can visualize it is Kelly or maybe he can't even visualize it and he's just doing the math i I can visualize it but I can't make you visualize it without paper
the issue and this type of a sighteline drawing would also help with questions we had around lighting exactly lighting spillage so I think it would be really important to see the a couple different perspectives where the am I doing not
only with the pylon sign light fixtures because that's where I you know we haven't gotten into any detail yet about that but it's going to be something of concern what she's saying is she understands that the lights are you know
pointing the light down but if there's that much of an elevation difference if you're driving along there even if the lights are pointing down you might be like under them and you you might be able to see them that's what she's asking if you put a sight line drawing together to show both of those things that would help the board visualize what
exactly it is you're asking them to approve can I can I get to the site lighting first and if that's still a concern then we can address because we did remember that that was one of the questions when we had came back on our list we did want to address that for you so we may not have covered all your concerns but we definitely did look at
it so explain to me just as simply as possible for the pylon signs what relief do you need uh we need height and we need relief for having more than one
pylon sign on the property and the height relief if 25 is required we are asking relief for So 25 is the maximum yes and you're asking for 45 even though you're saying the sign itself is not 45 correct and that's what that sighteline drawing will help
explain correct and what is what is provided on the plan that's going to be the square footage there's not going to be any ownership names or there's not going to be any address or identification added on to the signage okay
[Music] that is as proposed continue please okay traffic signage yeah there there would be traffic signage proposed around the site with typical stop signs um Okay is that shown on that on the drawing it's
shown on the site plan so sheet eight of the plan should illustrate all that it's called like wayfinding signage correct traffic control and waveinding uh those signs would be in accordance with the
MUTCD requirements and the township requirements that's traffic control correct do you have any way finding signage like you know arrows go you know service here uh not that we have proposed on the plan currently
okay i assume that you're going to want some put it this way if you're going to want some when you put in the plans for the building signage put in a plan for any of the wayfair yeah three square feet is the maximum so make sure that you keep
that in mind yep and there's no limit on number no no so the the amount will be reviewed as part of the sign package but the square footage will be three square feet okay so just so I understand we'll get that information if we come and get
10 approved at three square feet or less and ultimately want to add two more would that be an amended site plan application or as long as it comported with the ordinance requirements it could be added at that time yeah it could be added at that time
might be better to ask well that it's exactly where I'm going it's exactly where I'm going okay sorry Kelly go ahead that's all right uh so site circulation from a pedestrian standpoint uh there is a proposed sidewalk along the frontage
along 202 that was a request of DOT I believe uh so there is an ADA uh crosswalk at the driveway opening at 202 and then a sidewalk from the edge of the property to the edge of the property
proposed interior the pedestrian access there's ADA stalls along the frontages of the two dealerships uh and then there's barrierfree access through sidewalks and ADA ramps into the structures the remaining parking areas
uh have pedestrian access just crossing through and walking uh into the building through the drive aisles just before we get too far away from the parking I don't think that mic's on before we get too far away from the parking I just uh
how are we going to designate the storage of the vehicles and then the customer parking cuz I have some concerns about let's say like the the frontage along 202 if if there's a vacancy in one of the stalls along 202 where a car would normally be stored and
then somebody by happen chance parks their vehicle there and then they leave maybe they left it there and have to come pick it up later then they're blocked in so was there any consideration yet about how that would be identified not off the top of my head but we could
put like markings or signs yes i mean I think just some kind of striping or something would need to be added i think we could work with your office on that if that's Do you guys want that that's going to have You're going to have to put that somewhere in writing so if they approve
it I pick it up or that's going to make it a condition well listen we're going back and dealing with an additional plan that we're going to have to So we'll incorporate that on there that'd be the best way to do that's exactly what I'm trying to
unless anybody has a preference as to how we'll pick what works whether it's a freestanding sign or whether it's improvement marking or whatever we'll incorporate it within the landscape island
i know listen I I'm just we hear you loud and clear um there are requirements like we've said from day one there are requirements on our end that we're trying to if there are things that you want to make as conditions to get us to
that point then that's well within your perview to do but you know we have to make certain presentations steep slope impacts uh so the proposed development as I alluded to in the existing conditions there are steep slopes on the property under the
ordinance regulations the proposed development will be uh impacting these steep slopes um so the slope regulations just to kind of make it clear from 0 to 12% slope the
hard surface allowed is whatever is permitted in the zone so in this particular zone it's 55% from 13 to 19% it's 50% of the hard surface hard surface allowed in the zone so it's
more I understand 0 to 12% slope generally what percentage can you disturb what you're saying is township ordinance is not what percentage you can disturb it's what percentage you can add coverage to park surface yeah
you take a deduction it's it's you show me the ordinance please show me got a chart on one of these pages get on the plan yeah he has a chart on uh chart some it's on sheet five and six of the plans it might be thick tonight so it's all
right could be my brain thursday night it's hot it's hot [Music] that's also page 26 of Jessica's report listen I need someone to explain this to me i don't care who explains it i don't care if it's Jeff or anyone else
the way I have it is 55% hard surface is allowed in areas that are marked at 0 to 12% 55% of hard surface what does that 55% of slopes 0 to 12% is allowed to be i think if you
look at Jessica's page 26 or chart it may help jessica's report jessica's report hold on page 26 maximum surface okay does that help okay so it is it's how much hard surface
is allowed in a slope area between 0 and 12% correct exactly okay and Okay okay it's a total area of regulated slopes within each of these areas it's 55% of that for 0 to 12
27.5% 13 to 19 okay thank you i get it jessica thank you for your chart and chair thank you for pointing it out page 26 and Kelly also has a chart yeah okay but his not his is not in That's all right i don't care his is not
in color and doesn't explain it as well as this chart does well you'll be really happy because I'm going to read every single number right now all right so lot 31 there's
464,360 square ft of 0 to 12% slopes what we're proposing is 51.54% of hard surface over that area so for that specific area we comply and it's how much that
51.54% is how much is 238,865 ft for the next level which is 13 to 19% there's 18,876 square ft that exists on lot 31
we're allowed to have up to 50% of what the allowable heart surface in the zone is so it's 55 50 times 55% is 27 a.5% we're proposing 59.93% of hard surface in that specific
range range uh so there is relief required that number of 59.93% equivalent is 11,313 square ft and then greater than 20% and greater
is there's no hard surface permitted there is 12.08% of hard surface proposed which is on this is 3,881 square ft again for lot
31 and then additionally from that the overall hard surface number in the zone or on the property gets adjusted on a weighted limit based on the ordinance and what that entails is on this
particular property the allowable hard surface goes from 55% to 50.49% and the proposed overall hard surface on the property is 49.29% so we comply with that portion of
the hard surface on lot 31.01 okay now on lot 31.01 01 right now the only thing proposed on that lot is what is the covert the driveway and then
some utilities coming and then a hot box and a hot box okay uh so on that particular lot there is 487,086 or 86 square ft of 0 to 12% slopes as part of the minimal um
improvements that we're proposing on 31.01 only 2.6% of hard surface is proposed within that slope range or 12,827 square ft 13 to 19% there is
62,627 square ft uh we're proposing 5% of hard surface in that area which complies with the 27 and a half for that range that number is 3,158 square
ft and then from 20% and greater again no hard surface is permitted uh 5% hard surface is proposed in that range which is 351 square ft uh again I don't want to assume anything
but I assume that most of the disturbance even though it's you don't need a variance other than for that 20% or greater that must be somehow connected with the access road it's all associated with the access road putting in the covert and crossing that regulated ditch okay
uh so again the the overall allowable hard surface for lot 31.01 1 gets adjusted from 55% to 51.22% and the overall proposed hard surface on the lot for those minimal
improvements that we're talking about is 3.02% which complies all right so utilities uh kind of naturally with John what you were just asking about with the hot box
um so the applicant is proposing a hot box for lot 31 and a separate hotbox for lot 31.01 uh and that's at the direction of New Jersey American who is the water
provider they wanted two separate uh structures for the two potential developments to run on their own uh as part of this project we're proposing the hot box on lot 31.01 at this time
because we they'd need to install the utilities with the driveway at the same time that the s the driveway is getting installed so that when that future development if there is ever one gets constructed they're not ripping up the
road to install a new water line and popbox uh sanitary sewer uh lot 31 has 42 edus from the RTMUA uh which is more than enough for the
proposed development uh RTMUA has reviewed and uh they issued like a will serve in that regard uh the remaining proposed utilities are gas electric and cable uh
that those services are also proposed to go up that main uh access drive across the covert and then they would tie in on lot 31 at the uh first driveway opening into the property just
curious does lot 31.01 have any sewer capacity on it um You know I don't know the answer off the top of my head i know at one point in time it did but I don't know if they still do or do not
you know so do you i understand but the record has it's got what does the record should reflect what i we could go into it i would just say that it's irrelevant to this particular application because there's no development requiring sewer capacity that's proposed in connection with this
application on Mercury 101 that is true why would you have the number that is true check the So that could change check i just got to check the So that could change h that could change whatever the
future development is so right but the only things that they're seeking to have approved are a shared access drive mhm to be used right now at least for lot 31 which is court ordinance
covert and a hot box so I when you read those cases the published appellet division cases that say the board can't grant preliminary site plan approval unless they have the four essential elements of a development
one of which is sewer it's all in terms of you don't want something approved for occupancy when there's no utilities and I guess the point is that there's nothing proposed on that lot that could be occupied okay
okay uh the the two hot boxes so on lot 31.01 the hot box is proposed at 20 ft from the front yard property line uh and lot 31 it's 23 ft from the front yard uh so both require relief from the
ordinance for their locations and again these hotbox locations were provided or recommended by New Jersey American uh site grading uh so the when I went into my the original uh existing conditions of the property I
explained the topography there's a high point in the middle of the property and the property breaks to the north and to the south two distinct low points the proposed grading kind of mimics that pattern there's a high point in the center of the property where the two dealerships are
proposed uh and then there's a portion of the property that runs towards the north uh and loses grade as it goes towards Route 202 and has an ultimate discharge point or low point at that covert area uh along the west
northwestern portion of the property uh in the rear portion of the property or the southern portion of the property the grading is designed again to mimic the existing drainage patterns and all runs to the south to that regulated ditch along the southern
property line uh on the edges of the development to try to limit as much disturbance as possible we're proposing the slopes at 3:1 to tie back into existing grade as quick as possible and try to limit the
amount of tree clearing where it's possible to limit the the tree clearing on the property um and in doing that uh the proposed property is a net fill based on the design um and any fill being brought
into the property would be brought in in accordance with state and local requirements um and be organized in that manner have you provided that um calculation i believe the number was provided a report
was provided at one point in time you know what it is yeah what it is yeah so approximately we're looking at 16,500 cubic yards of fill and layman's terms how many how many trucks how many trucks
how many what yard dump trucks does that mean are going to be to the site a lot in layman's term it's a lot yeah um a typical a typical triacle has about 20 cubic yards is what it can hold and
that's on the very upper end of what it can hold that quick math is 825 trucks that have to be hauled in sight 825 trucks bringing fillings how how do we manage well you could ask
for a traffic management plan control a uh right a truck fill plan other of my boards so so typically um for for sites that we deal with when there's a lot of fill one of the biggest things that the first thing that we ask for as a part of
the construction process is a certified clean fill or or clean fill certification we need to know where the material is coming from there needs to be an environmental report showing that there's no contamination no trash no debris um and that's a requirement right those are the state and local requirements yes correct and then as a
part of that we also need to have um delivery tickets to show again where it's coming from when it left the site when it arrived on site so that's just part of the typical process that we would have for for projects of this nature and then how do you manage traffic and dust control and we could I
mean it's turn to have a pre-construction meeting to evaluate and come up with we could have put it this way if the board wants the board can ask for a truck and fill
plan that will show where they're going to have the dirt mats what they're going to do for dust control the route that the trucks are going to take you can if that's the concern you can impose that as a
condition and I know that your office has done that because you've done it in Montgomery Township where I'm the board of adjustment attorney and they had a site that had a million yeah million cubic yards of fill it was a lot so
where Yeah we're much less than that but we're talking about and just so clear for the next that would be something we would impose no that's a that's a plan that they'd want to see and approve before they approve the before they approve the application
that's not that's not a condition that they're going to that they're going to delegate to the engine so I just want to make sure you thought they wanted the plan and then you so I just wanted to make sure I think it's I would think it's something Why don't you poll everyone if they want to see a plan like that see an evaluate and and I want to know exactly
what you want on it so you said root you said our engineer will provide the standards for what they did in Mont sure yeah we we can I didn't personally work on it but I can provide it but typically it would be the route showing that where the impact is actually going to be um
trying to keep that to state highway so that way it's not impacting local roads um and then there will be there'll be general notes about soil erosion and making sure the dust control and tire tracking pads maybe in this case because there's so much fill maybe it's a tire washing station instead of just having a
rip wrap pad that hopefully stays in good shape you're going to a street cleaning machine on site because inevitably something's going to spill off the truck stuff like that nothing like location of where the bill is coming from no not not so not as a part of that yeah not as a part of this yeah
because you're not going to know he's going to correct that's what I was yeah that's why you want the certified coming in right that's why construction pre-construction meetings all the certification right the certification and delivery tickets right does that include like traffic management if you
need police or whatever to direct everything um keeping in mind the circle is right there yeah I mean uh if there may have to be some type of coordination with state police because you'll be accessing I don't know if maybe you'll need some kind of access permit with
them just based on the number of trucks but that would be later that would that's typically done during the pre-construction meeting because we'll reach out to everybody that we don't want to make it too convoluted right that's where it'll be interesting to see if the traffic study that's now being
hopefully updated to include the other development in the area um that wasn't in the background counts that these 800 trucks that's a lot of trucks because what what time period will all the field be brought in on the site approximately
uh when it's under construction a little bit clearer well it's going to be doing Yeah it's site work so I mean you anticipate site work taking place it's going to take a few months to get up to grade it's going to take time it's
not going to happen overnight frank she wants to know how long do you think she wants you to ballpark it this is one of the few times she wants you to guess but but an educated guess if you could yeah so I'm just trying to think over in other words listen if you have is it one month three months or six months you
have 825 trucks coming listen 825 trucks you figure how many trucks can you handle in a day because they have to come in they have to dump and then they have to be the the earth has to be rolled it's got to be compressed so he can ask him to do a calculation they can
do a calculation for what's the maximum number of 20 cubic yard dump trucks they can handle in a day and then you multiply that by how many days that's just how many days of the fill operation that's not all the site work that's just
the fill operation you can add you can put that in a note on the plan you're putting together brian I want to go back to something you said sure um where the fill is coming from you said tickets yes um so delivery tickets delivery tickets okay a delivery
ticket is one thing but yeah explain where's it where is it coming from where so so the but as part of this application I wouldn't get into because they don't know where it's coming from yet they're going to have to go and source where correct but when you do the ticket system would it say where
it's coming correct yes that would be something that we ask for as as a part of if you're bringing fill in we need to have certifications just so you know what they're going to do is they're going to put out feelers and see what sites in the state this is a net fill site so they're going to look for a site
that's a net export site and then they're going to have to hire people to test the soil before it leaves that other site and if you wanted you could put a condition that it has to be you know
some independent tester before it's put here listen the only reason I know about this because I represent the Bernard Township planning board and they phased out the Bernard's quarry and they were bringing in Phil and it wasn't done the right way well that's what I'm thinking
i'm going to the worst case scenario just because somebody fills out combination problem so just because somebody fills out a ticket can can we is that like a certification and then we get all the tickets and then we can see the log is that what that that process another terminology would be
like a bill of lighting or Okay okay yeah so we'll have someone signs off when it leaves someone initials it when it gets delivered and there's a there's a paper trail okay we get copies of just want to make sure the person doing the signing is a real person minor detail no promises the way everything's going
lately and there's a certification process being filled as well in addition to Okay what you So you know it's not coming from Chernobyl that would cost a lot to fly from there three mile island
okay a landfill or someone who's got a contamination problem and they have to dig it out like at a gas station um okay so just the route trying
to focus the most on state highways uh soil erosion dust control measures uh tire wash station street cleaning machine uh those items anything else asks "Talk to the board engineering expert." Yeah I'll I'll follow up with
the the person in our office [Music] all right storm water management and drainage uh so the proposed development will result in a major storm water development per the local and state ordinances and
requirements um so we are proposing a pretty robust storm water plan here um the state recently required all major storm water developments to include green infrastructure designs or devices
into their designs uh and these devices have to adequately detain treat and recharge storm water in accordance with the various criteria within the rules uh so what we're proposing on this site
is uh porous pavement areas throughout the parking and car storage areas to manage um the storm water accordingly and porous pavement is an approved green infrastructure device within the state's
BMP manual um all the storm water systems or forest pavement systems are under drained uh the existing soil on the site and the testing that we did previously mapped as
what's known as D soils so there's very low permeability in the existing condition um so once the water percolates through the porest pavement system it sits in a clean stone uh pit for a little while and then eventually is uh discharged out of the system at a
controlled rate um like a normal detention basin would um the the there's two distinct locations that were proposing the main discharges of the storm water on this particular project um and they mimic the
low points on the project that I previously alluded to so the first is in the northwest corner near that covert and that existing ditch there's a discharge location and then there's a separate discharge location along the
southeastern portion of the property um all the way to the east of the development real quick um back to the porest pavement issue that since that came up again one of the things that I'm thinking might be helpful to your question regarding stacking is some
notation on the plan indicating the amount of weight if any limit that forest pavement can hold is that something you're interested in seeing does that make sense to you or is that no longer a concern my perspective it was more of the
logistics of moving vehicles you're getting 100 extraund 87 vehicles beyond what's needed for your site that need to be moved how how many how often do you have to clean the forest pavement to vacuum
it uh I'll get into it i have it I have it listed here i just want to make sure what your concern was so it's not so much that it's the number of Okay that's fine we have a whole separate section on that okay uh I have a question related to storm water go ahead and I don't know if it's
our expert or you can answer i'm just again thinking more logically here that this site has a lot of grading issues right it's all over as well as the fill which is going to get done versus the
hard surface so how does all that play and what type of storm water system would accommodate all those variables because this is a complex site correct so any the other allowable BMPs that are
green infrastructure devices are infiltration basins which are not going to work on this property because the soils don't allow for infiltration there's bio retention basins and those are done at the surface so to propose one of those we would end up
um disturbing and grading even more land on the property to fit it and the only area left that we could encumber is one of the wooded areas so we decided not to do that we're already proposing all this hard surface we might as well use the
hard surface as the storage device and the control device for the storm water okay any any comments from uh our expert township expert yeah I mean that's that's a it's a state approved method um
so we've as as the requirements come in place I mean this is becoming much more common now with porest pavement and I know the biggest concern typically with these applications is maintenance um but as a part of every new application there's an O andM or an operations and
maintenance manual that gets submitted as a part of the package and then a deed is placed on the property requiring the current owner and then all future owners that they have to maintain the storm water system and it gives the township the ability um but not they don't have
to but it gives the township the ability to go in and fix that um should anybody ever not take care of it and generally I don't I don't believe that's what's going to happen with this but um but another thing too is that with the new requirements uh inspection reports and
maintenance reports are supposed to be submitted to the township I think on a yearly basis it's it doesn't happen a lot but as the again now that the requirements are more in place and D is kind of cracking down more on what's what's out there now that that is something and that is something part of
I'm sure of your on andm manual that says when the reports are supposed to be submitted to the township as well thank you just a clarification I it's not what I see on the plan so
pavement is being used but I I believe it's not being used in drive aisles just in parking spots that's That's correct and that's a a suggestion by the BMP manual because of the heavy traffic and and turning movements they don't
recommend you put forest pavement within the drive okay because out of concern it would fail over course of time correct you get you get into the like I'm sure if on the highways you see like chip and seal or slurry sealing when you do it on
roads that have a lot of traffic where there's a lot of turning movements that's where it starts to push the asphalt out of the way so typically it goes into the parking stalls where it is a lot of straight movement at the vehicle sit for an extended period of time and it's not a lot of traffic over and over and over hitting it so that's
the that is and it's not a lot of turning yeah and there's not a lot of turning in the spaces just wanted to clarify the record i thought I heard you using on the property but just in the parking space correct okay and that kind of circles around to
the question um what kind are you doing concrete are you doing asphalt what kind of porous is asphalt pors asphalt that circles me back to our engineer is for the amount of uh
vehicles that are using this site is that the one that's going to be most suitable not break down be easier to maintain or is something else better no I I think the porch pavement is a is a sound choice for for the the intended
use i mean it's as correct yeah I think por asphalt I mean it's again it's a it's a state approved method um the concrete has a higher compressor strength but I think the asphalt is economically it's better
for the applicant I'm sure um it's harder to see that the difference between the asphalt and the concrete if you were to go and do concrete then it kind of the site starts to look a little bit peacemeal um but no I think the Porsche asphalt there's there's no concerns at all with strength and
long-term longevity of it good all right um Ryan did a really good job of hitting my next points here but there is a maintenance manual that was prepared as part of this application and is required as part of any major storm water project
that will be recorded with the property in the deed so if there is ever a transfer of sale if anything changes it's part of the property it gets ch uh transferred with the property as well as all the maintenance and requirements with those devices
um and some of the general maintenance requirements because I know I think Miss Drews had a a concern over it um these are straight out of the BMP manual under the porest pavement section um so the surface course of the porest pavement system must be inspected after every
storm event that exceeds one inch of rainfall if there's any um noticed issues they have to like if mud or something gets in there it needs to be remedied immediately um the surface course again
of the pavement must be inspected at least once annually for any cracking subsidance spoiling erosion or deterioration so on a yearly basis they got to double check to make sure this the pavement is still holding um and then the surface course again of the
pavement must be vacuumed uh vacuum swept not power swept at least four times per year so once a quarter um and again that's just to get any sediment out of that surface to allow the water to to seep through um and that is within that
maintenance manual that will be filed and it will go with the property and as the owner or the owner's rep the applicants rep I should say uh spoke to they have experience with maintaining these systems on other properties so they're confident that they'll be able
to keep up with the maintenance of the forest statement system and as Ryan also noted detail logs of all the maintenance events are required to be maintained and then ultimately submitted to the town under the uh the yearly u MS5 permit
that's part of the manual as well correct [Music] we'd like to do a break for We'd like a bad I just have one more thing to put on the record the the storm water management along with other site
improvements were all reviewed under the D permits for the freshwater wetlands and the flood hazard area and those permits have been issued so they also reviewed the storm water management system and they found that it meets their requirements
great i take a five minute break call the meeting back to order we have 10 minutes we're going to 9:30 now 9:00 we got three items for close session all right i'll try to make my site lighting fast
though go ahead not too fast the site lighting mhm uh so the applicant's proposing 29 polemounted signs they're proposed at 25 ft say that i'm sorry say that again someone is talking
[Music] sorry start from there kelly please start again yep there's 29 polemounted signs thank you they are mounted or proposed to be mounted at 25 ft 20 is allowable so there's relief required with that all
of the polemounted signs are LED the polemounted what sign you said sign i'm sorry lights okay i thought it was me yeah no I'm sorry this time I'm the dense brain one think we're all get there pretty soon
uhhuh all the lights are LEDs they're downward facing and they have uh shields on them uh the lights are programmable and dimmable and as you heard at the previous hearing they would be dimmed down to I believe the number was 20%
that the owner's applicant or the applicants rep noted uh in off hours uh the lights along the northern property line or the northern property edge which is closest to Route 202 uh
they're all facing towards the development or away from Route 202 and the closest light to the physical road is more than 65 ft away from the road oh wow so it's it's pretty far away from the road and I assume these are the same
lights that they have at the other dealership right now yes oh okay so I I I understand the concern of potentially seeing glaring driving down but you would if you're driving down the road you really have to look off to the right to see a s uh a sign a light that's 65
ft off of the road yeah I know i I have a question um how about uh in the residential area behind the property yeah so the residential area there is zero light spillage and I'll get into or I can introduce uh the sighteline
diagram that they asked for from the neighboring properties but there's a 100 foot wide um vegetated area that's associated with that regulated ditch along the southern property line
some of it is on the subject property and is within a conservation easement so it can't be touched and portions are on the neighboring property but are under state regulated areas uh through the repairarian zone um and the flood hazard
area rules in addition to the local ordinances for the stream corridor which for lack of a better term creates a 100 foot uh vegetated buffer so Razul from from your question the the the poles mounted
lights are at 25 ft and that vegetation is going to obstruct any views from those residences to those poles and the actual light spillage would be zero at the property line is is there any um evergreen trees in that conservation area because if it's deciduous trees
it's not going to really there are existing evergreen trees in that area what percentage do we have some kind of that i don't know we have a picture do you have a Google or anything of that uh I could get one i could get one i guess
I'm still having microphone thought I was talking it's not on okay I'm gonna try this does it this one work oh yeah there you go see the difference
i I guess wow i'm I'm really having um a conceptual struggle dealing with the lighting you know now now that we know the poles are even higher and I'm driving down even though they're
65 ft away let's just put this way there's a lot of car dealerships where where you get eye you know interference from the lights so yeah and why why do you need 25 ft versus the 20 that's
required by the ordinance so the the actually the row along the frontage is at 20 ft all the other polemounted lights on the property are 25 same question why do you need 25 when 20 is required by the ordinance well you're I think if I'm the other way around I'm
sorry why are you asking for 25 we're 20 match correct 25 feet are on the other locations of Right she's just curious right yeah it's to spread the light out on the property to get as much bang for your buck for lack of a better term as spreading the light in the parking
you're saying if you use 20 footers instead of 25 footers you would need more correct we don't have more is what's wrong with having more yeah many more I don't know off the top of my head i'd have to do the design to to get the
number because you need some reason for an exception then what would the reason for the exception be if you can lower them to 20 ft and just put in more the answer can't be financial yeah no I understand that we'll look into that we'll be prepared
to come back with that to your original question though I would still like some perspectives from the road compliant no it's the spillage the spillage is the spillage let me interpret what she's saying she understands that if you look
at the plan it shows zero spillage right what she wants to know is maybe if you do a sighteline drawing maybe the thing needs a shield on one side not simply downward i think I testified to all that the
lights would have shields on them okay she So if that's the case okay show her yeah right with a sight line and a shield show her that from the road with the shield on the fixture you will not be able to see you know the
light bulb for better term yeah the fixture underneath that's what she wants to know yeah that's where my concern cuz you cars start stacking up multiple you know probably 10 or 15
from that light back so they'll be sitting right past the vet where these lights are yeah that's what I think they agree they're going to put some kind of sighteline drawing in okay showing like a lot of times you have the sighteline drawing and you want to see how the
landscaping is going to impact you know what you see the top of a building this sight line drawing is going to they want to have landscaping in it that's fine but they have to make sure it's accurate but this one's going to show if you're at the driver's seat level which I believe is three or four feet above the
ground jay and if you're looking up even though the light's 65 ft away at night what will your eyes see will it see the bulb or will the shield block it if the shield's blocking it you're going to satisfy her
i'd be more concerned of a driver looking 65 ft to the right driving down the road no but listen he's the driver's Listen the driver is not going to look that way unless something's bright if something's bright they're going to say "What is that?" She wants to She wants to make sure that when they look over there they're not going to see something
bright well I'm just curious what's the height now at the current location 20 20 you're a lot closer to the road yeah just remember the whole thing started with the pylon sign
okay the pylon sign which even though it's 25 ft it's measured as 45 ft but the change of ele 45 right i'm just curious up in the air so so another concern aside from the drivers right and
I think that's what Donna was saying it it just created this image in my head about lights and car dealership is so you answer the question about the neighborhood behind but in front of 202
everything is bare so chances are you could see those lights way far from because of the height from 202 forget about driving driving is important because of the safety issue but there's also additional what kind of
visual impact it's going to have on the neighborhood with these lights sorry I don't know if I understood that okay so John did you understand what I'm saying no I did not so you know how all the car dealerships are down at one end okay and
at night there's a visual because all those car dealerships are down there then you can see so with moving these car dealerships up to the residential area what are you seeing from the the mall across the
street what are you seeing all you know are we creating another are we extending the situation we have in where all the car dealerships now are we extending it is it going to look that I don't want to say industrial but
no I understand so I guess then my question is ambient light is the board looking for an ambient light study even though we don't have any people here from residential areas that are concerned i just want to know
what you want so coming prepared i think if we get the sighteline plan uh will help us in the back i think what you look what you said and what I see on the plan I'm kind of satisfied with what you have in the back but I think the sight line will help a
lot the diagram didn't you bring didn't you bring a sight for the rear I did that was my other question is that sufficient or do you well no one's seen it yet I haven't introduced it I haven't got to it okay but yeah I'm like Cynthia said I'm concerned and thanks to Donna
that's where the thought came was in front and Can I make a quick suggestion we don't have much time can you just start by showing that sighteline drawing to see if that satisfies the concerns in the back yeah because then if that satisfies it then we just need one for the front right correct and if it
doesn't satisfy you'll know what you have to do but if you don't at least show that right now yeah correct that have to go back and do another one i don't want to either i appreciate that thank you i think the um 25 foot light is this going to be exhibit A4 uh no a4
is a replacement you wanted the um proposed conditions plan not showing the buildings on the next neighboring lot to be a replacement of A4 so where is A4 so it was part of the drawings no it's part
of the different Okay sorry listen listen the last exhibit we entered into evidence in February was A3 a3 was A3 we're done we're right here okay so which exhibit do you want marked
as exhibit A4 okay remove and make remove and make this A4 but okay so then the So we don't have to say make this A4 i don't care all I know is the next exhibit is A4 just tell me what it is we're all over this place we're We're
looking at the little bit up the back let's just have this one A4 a4 kelly give us the give us the title of that site of the sighteline exhibit from the back [Music]
i have them handing out so you can have it so the next proposed site that will be A5 thank you but we're only doing A4 tonight i just wanted to say that I think it's
like there's two things going on um the 20 foot versus the 25 foot holes is sort of a a character um it affects like this is an area that abuts a residential area um it's a design kind of issue having to
do with the character of that part of our town um and then of course this other issue so what I have here is we're going to look into what happens if we decrease the lighting from 25 to 20 how many additional poles would we need in
order to achieve the lighting that's correct candle requirements and safety across the site right and the sight line providing that you're okay with what it looks like for the rear providing one of those for the front that's correct now so exhibit A4 is what there's a plan view and a profile view but what is this
a sight is this a sighteline exhibit or what yeah it's a representation of a sight line looking from the closest residential property from the house towards the development to the closest structure or building structure which is
the Toyota dealership okay so for purposes of our board secretary A4 is going to be called the rear sighteline exhibit you have another one i go with this no here ted do you have any concerns about their
tree selection yeah i wonder how they got it if they did a tree survey back there for these they look like evergreen trees so that's one concern and I know in that back area in the island in the back of the uh storage part okay this is this is not a
sighteline exhibit i'm looking there where's the sight line the sight line is on the bottom no I'm looking you have a guy or a person or a woman or whatever and you have a purple thing coming out and it hits a tree and that's it and that's what we're saying your your view
is obstructed did anyone go out you're supposed to do a dotted line all the way out to the building see where it stops but you see if the tree is not there if it's not accurate if the tree dies what what you see okay well we can revise it we'll come in with another one okay and
this sighteline exhibit is done from the closest existing dwelling is what you're saying that's correct which is how far away from the building uh it's approximately 450 ft away from the Toyota dealership building yeah yeah if you put the guy at 0 plus 0
0 you'll see the front edge of that Toyota dealership is 4 plus 50 you guys got to talk quieter in the back we can hear you up here believe it or not so so again if you could just do like a tree inventory just so we know what the percentage of the evergreen
because I don't know if that's an accurate representation for you to go out there you can't I mean because again in if they're deciduous trees in the winter you're basically going to see through them okay so the comments on the exhibit A4
is you got to redo it bring it back we'll have the new one will be A5 and then whatever car that other one you were talking about be A6 but you have to put the actual sight line in and you have to do some kind of tree survey to show if this is based on reality or if
this is just you know fiction i mean I was also would it be helpful to actually have because this shows a a diagram but have have an actual image of where you're standing well the the concern with that is we don't have access onto
the private property it's somebody's property i could stand in the culde-sac in the public right away but I can't go onto that person's property and we've done that before yeah with adjacent properties i know what you're talking about and that was the concern there because it was an accurate prediction
yeah you could you could knock on the door and ask if they tell you no do it from the culdeac if they say yes do it from the back of their house can you add one of the the light that's what that's what they did for the um
Well they would probably be interested too because they're backing up so they want to know too if they were here no one's here i'm going to go knocking on doors now one door you don't have to do it kelly's doing Kelly while you're doing this could you please give us the um distance from that
house to the uh closest parking spot please yes probably about 300 ft just shy of 300 ft okay thank you and what is also shown or depicted in
there which is plus or minus at the 250 ft away from the house is where we ant the anticipated master plan road would be going through the province okay secretary do we have a digital of exhibit A4 that they submitted yes that
one right here yeah we have it right there we get it right up there never mind okay you're getting dense again okay so it's 9:10 yeah i was going to say uh I suggest that we continue the hearing without needing further notice to what date um we have May 1st
available but that's a lot your three weeks would be next week right you have enough time to make and then if not then you're looking at July if you're waiting for May too you might
have time to get the the signage to go yeah can I tell you if you it's going to be in July you better have the signage by I mean honestly whatever signage they have is the signage that we will submit at that point in time i don't understand what that means
whatever signage they give us will submit correct that I doubt they're going to give you the signage in time for you to be May one but I'd be shocked if they don't give you the signage i What's the date in July i mean we're
pushing it that's July 3rd is that number four and then if not you're looking at July 17th are we going to have a quorum July 3rd why don't we first start find out if your people come in July before we have Well we don't know if we want that right
okay july 17th yeah July 17th so the hearing in this matter is going to be continued to July 17th without any further notice and time extension till September right august 31st you're
pushing it you're pushing it you want an extension to September 30th is that a yes yes what's the next day what day july 17 july 17th kyle if you look at your email
hey I mean maybe if the foot shop isn't going on June so we'll get the updated traffic report with the new developments that she most certainly will okay great ahead of time
okay so move the motion I propose is to go into close session to discuss three matters so it's going to be technically three close sessions three close session minutes i'm
going to be separated but we're going to do them one by one come back out the first motion close session discuss personnel matters in terms of potentially hiring a hydro geologist
okay the second closed session is going to be to discuss board procedures where the board attorney has to give attorney legal advice for confidentiality is required by duty of an attorney
your third session litigation see you next week 202 LLC and because involved attorney client trial
[Music] [Music] We're still in the meeting miss Cynthia Schaer Vice Chair Mr samji yes yes mr randy Block mr steve Parcio yes mr l
Cina yes mr jim Ferrero is to go into close session what about James i need seven so James and Donna don't count so are we going to retire to the close session room what are we going to do here just do
I'll be out of here in just two minutes