Calling to order. The zoning board of adjustment Renon Township, New Jersey regular meeting December 4th, 2025. Notice of meeting. The notice requirements of the open public meetings act has been satisfied by the placing of a notice of this meeting on the bulletin
board at the municipal building filing same with the township clerk and transmitting same to the hunter county democrat the courier news the star ledger and the Trenton times. Roll call please. Chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer >> here. Vice chair Mr. Russell Damchi has
asked to be excused. Mr. Steve Farcio has also asked to be excused. Mr. Mr. Randy Block >> here. >> Mr. Jim Ferrero, he has asked to be excused. Miss Lindseay Kbrangel >> here >> via Zoom. Miss Lorett Cina >> here.
>> Miss Donna Drews >> here. >> And Mr. James Miller has also asked to be excused. Board professionals, board attorney, Mr. John >> here. >> Township planner Mr. Jeffrey Vakarella >> here. >> And all other board professionals have asked to be excused. >> Except that you're here. and board
secretary Taylor Vaughn here. >> Okay. Can I get a motion to approve the absence of the board members? >> So move. >> Second. >> Thank you. Roll call. >> Chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Randy Block. >> Yes. >> Miss Lindseay Kringle.
>> Yes. >> Miss Loretta Cina. >> Yes. >> Miss Donna Drews. >> Yes. >> Great. Thank you. Moving on to the board. Members and council's comments, announcements, distribution, correspondence, and meeting minutes. Having none, move on. We have one
resolution this evening. Okay. Uh Ring Township Board Adjustment G7B LLC block 16.01 lots 35 36 and 38 132 New Jersey Route
31 application number BOA-10-2025. Resolution memorializing the grant of a D1 use variance five C2 variances one exception and preliminary and final site plan approval to allow the construction and of a drive-thru seven brewed coffee
shop in the Ryan Township Square development resolution number 2025-18 version 2025-12 0-01- version three.
Any comments or Yeah, I have one um edit to suggest on page 22, item number 12. >> That's a good thing. It's 22 and it's not exactly >> uh 22 number item number 12. >> Y >> C.
>> It should be Hunter County Soil Conservation District, not service. >> Oh, County Soil Conservation District. Okay. Thank you. >> I'll do that. No version four. We're good.
>> So, we can Yep. move forward. Everybody here is eligible to vote except for Lindsay. >> Okay. >> Okay. All right. Can we roll? >> Someone's going to make I'll make a motion to >> I'll second it.
Chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Randy Block, >> yes. >> Miss Lorett Catina, >> yes. >> And Miss Donna Drew, >> yes. >> Okay, moving on for the applications this evening. First application, BOA case number 06-2024.
Applicant is CE Main Street LLC. Location is block 41, lot 63, 181 Old Croin Road. Uh, application time extension request for obtaining signatures of final plans and zoning construction permits.
>> Good evening. >> Good evening, uh, board members. I'm Donald Maurice Maurice Witcher LLP, represent C Main Street LLC. I'm also member of C Main Street LLC. You may recall that u my wife and I are members
of that LLC. The purpose of the property is to build a single family home for ourselves. I have with me today uh Mr. Bulock who represents the seller. The reason for our need for an extension is we still do not have electric service to this property. JCPNL had represented to
Mr. Bullock and to me and actually had drawn a preliminary uh plan to bring the service in and then reneged on that only this past September. We had uh gone to the two adjacent property owners. Uh
this is lot 63. So it was lot 62 and lot 61 requesting 25- foot easement to bring the line in. It was refused from lot 62. Lot 61 provides the um easement access easement to this landlock property. It
does not have a utility easement. We asked for an easement from them. They said no. Fortunately there are four other properties with I believe kinder neighbors that surround this uh lot. I miss I believe Mr. Bulock will be making inquiries to them. He's also here to
answer any questions. You know, this process has taken us five years um for this landlot property. It's a beautiful property though and it is for a single family home. I'm going to keep at it. I still believe in it. And um at this time though, we had asked for six months. I
don't think that would be feasible. I think we're going to need a year because some of the access may come through wetlands. And as you know, we'll need a permit from the state if that happens. So I think it's appropriate at this point to ask for one year. >> Can I ask?
>> Yes. >> So is the reason for the extension that JCPNL renegade or is the reason for the extension that you can't get an easement for JCPNL to put the power through? >> It's it's both actually. It's both.
>> Okay. So what was JCPNL going to do that you wouldn't need an easement? They had we I believe they had an easement attorney drill and they actually drew a map showing that line pull after the owner of lot 62
I would just say raised a concern. They then told us they didn't have the easement and that we would need to have an >> So what you're saying is they probably didn't want to get involved. >> Exactly. It's better that you say it than I but that is what I believe. They didn't want to get involved and so
>> so now you're looking for someone else to have an easement and you're going to have to make a proposal with JCPNL to bring a line in through that ease. >> Yes, correct. >> Well, actually, if I could speak to that, can you identify yourself for the record? >> Um, yes. Uh, I'm not here in a
representative capacity to the mic. >> But who are you? >> Scott Bull. I represent the current owner of uh lot 62 hope property development the seller in other words. >> Yeah.
>> And uh there's been sort of a tortured history this the former owners of and actually don't listen we don't need to the board wants to know is he keeps on coming back you know they approved his underlying application.
They put a condition in that put the time limit to construction because they don't like sleeping variances. So they just want to know what's the problem. So he's just described two problems. JCPNL reneged to bring it in one way. Now the problem is you got to find another
easement. So, I know how they think. Fortunately or unfortunately, they're going to want to know how long do you think it will take to get the other easement and how long do you think it will get JCPNL to commit to put the line in through the easement that you hope to get? >> Well, I I can answer that question as I
said one year and I believe >> so one year from when? So, in other words, >> today expires today. Um, one year from today we are coordinating this with JCPNL right now. We have identified at
least four other properties that are uh adjoin this property from which an electric line can be brought in. Um and uh inquiries are being made to each of these owners. >> NJ does not need to get involved. >> It will depend um
it will depend on where which of the lots we get the easement from. Some of them will not which would be great. Maybe one of them would, which would require us to put in another application. We a third application for
a utility line called D wetlands permit. >> Okay. So, you want an extension of which condition? Because condition one of the underlying resolution 2024-12 was modified before to say that the
applicant shall revise the variance plans and the architectural plans and obtain signatures on the plans by December 5. But there's another condition in that other resolution that says how much time you need to pull permits. So which condition or conditions are you talking about
>> to pull the permits? Okay. >> So which condition is that? That's not condition one. What? Jeff, do you have the underlying resolution with you? >> I I think I'm pretty sure it was condition one that had >> Condition one is always the condition on
how long it takes to revise the plans. >> I think everything else we we were able to accomplish. There are just some Can >> Can you give me that resolution, Jeff? >> No. What he's saying is that there's a specific time that you have to get the plan signed, but then there's another timeline. No, no, I'm not talking about number 12.
>> I want resolution. Yeah, that's the guy. >> Hold on. >> There are specific timelines for you to obtain construction and the zoning permits and then close everything out with the >> So, I know that you asked for an extension of condition one. Condition one
gives you a time limit to make the plan revisions and get them signed. That expires today, right? So you absolutely want and need an extension of that, but probably condition 17
because you thought ahead. You just forgot that you thought ahead. Condition 17 gives you until December 5, 2026, >> right? >> To pull the zoning and construction permits. >> You already have that. >> I didn't ask. I just wanted one.
>> You just wanted condition one. Okay. >> Yeah. >> There you go. >> We need condition one. And um I'm confident that >> one more question though. >> Yeah. >> Why can't the plans be revised and
signed? Why does that have to wait? Does that have to wait for the JCPL electric service and the easement >> D approved >> because they may need >> D shown on the plan. It was discussed at the hearing that it was going to go. >> All right, I get it. >> Yeah, the original plan had where the
line you're exactly right where the line was coming in and we needed a D. >> All right, I get it. >> Now, this is a large property. It's like 14 acres. >> It could be coming in from an exact an opposite place. We just don't know. Does the board understand the situation?
>> Yes, >> we're on. Yep. >> Anyone have a problem giving him the extension he asked for? Can someone make a motion to modify condition one to grant a further extension of the time within which to make the plan revisions
and get the plan signed from December 4, 2025 to December 4, 2026. >> I'll make a motion. >> I second it. Okay. Roll call. Chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Randy Block. Yes. >> Miss Lindsey Kranuel.
>> Yes. >> Miss Lorett Cina. >> Yes. >> And Miss Donna Drews. >> Yes. >> Good luck. >> Thank you very much. I hope I won't have to be back. >> By the way, that's what you said last time. >> Okay. Next application for this evening
to OA case number 17-2021. Applicant is Shanty LLC. Location block 41.01, lot 3, 305 Highway 12. Time extension request for obtaining zoning and construction permits.
>> You guys both can sit at the table right here. >> Yeah, come right up to the table. You can come right up to that table. As you can see, it's extension night at the Raron Township Board of Adjustment. Good evening. >> Good evening all.
So um I know last year we were here we got that extension and then I I can proceed right. >> Yes. >> Okay. So >> identify identify yourself for the record. uh Manju Singh >> and
>> Rajes Singh my husband >> right Rajes Singh and the applicant is actually Shanti LLC right >> yes >> what's your position with Shanti LLC >> I'm his I'm the owner Singh owner I'm his wife
>> right you're the managing member and you're the boss >> okay >> okay >> so um so >> we have that established So what's what is the issue? So last time let me just see the last resolution.
This is another one. So in 2019 resolution 201907 the board granted a bifurcated use variance and a C1 lot size variance to allow conversion of the existing building to a convenience store deli and an office.
Then there were some conditions in there. One of the conditions was that you had a certain amount of time to apply for and obtain preliminary and final site plan approval. You came in for an extension of that in
2021 and the board extended it to August 1, 2022. Then you came in in 2022. um you wanted modification to allow exceptions for one or more of the site plan ordinance
landscaping requirements and then in 2023 you came in for another extension of the time period to obtain signatures on the site plans to May 4, 2024 and allow an extension of the time to obtain the construction permits to
November 4, 2024. Kenya came in in 2024 for a second modification of 13 to grant an extension of the time period to abstain the construction permits to November 4, 2025. And now you are here
to seek an extension of what? >> Um just to get that parking lot as well as back road get it built. >> Exactly. So we engaged few contractors and they were saying that it would be better to get that septic built. So then
we were talking to septic team meaning like the county and then we found out septic plan was not approved. So it took some few months to get that septic plan approved with county and then van cliff and then so septic um of the company
they are saying that they will be available in January to get that work started and that is why we are seeking approval here. We are requesting both team members just to for approval for additional time we will need. >> Hey help me here. Are you in a position to
>> this this factually? Did they pull construction permits? >> No. >> Okay. Okay. Let me start by did they make the plan revisions and get the plan signed? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, they had until
November 4, 2025 to get the construction permits. >> Yes. >> And they want an extension of that. >> We already have construction permit. It's already approved, right? No, >> no, no. >> Okay. >> So, you want the extension of the time
to get the construction permits. Explain again why because it's not it's related to Jeff. Help me. >> Side plan. We got to do the site plan first and then start. >> So, a pre-construction meeting was held um for this. There were some conditions
that needed to be met. They they clean before a zoning permit. they needed to clean a bunch of outside outside storage that remained on the property. That was satisfied, but then it came down to um a performance guarantee bond and inspection escrow, and that's that's
what we're waiting for. So, um >> Okay. But she But you're I'm sorry. I got Reesh saying, "How do you spell your first name?" I know him. You >> Manchu. >> Can you spell that? M A N JU.
>> Thank you. So Jeff is saying that the only thing that's holding up the construction permits is you haven't submitted a performance guarantee, >> a bond, a bond and inspection escrow. >> But that will only be done once we will
have the contractor approved, right? Then only we will be able to do that. But the contractor is saying that get the septic plan approved. Sorry, get the septic done first. So we are going to do the septic first and then get that work done. So that time we will be coming
with all that bond and all that information we will be submitting it to the township. >> Hey Jeff, you better help me. I do not understand. So, I guess they're saying that the septic needs to be done before they issue a bond in the inspection ask.
I mean, the septic has not the county deals with the >> I know. I That's why I don't understand. >> I guess they they're not in the position to >> Are you their son by any chance? Can you come on up? Maybe you can help explain. >> You just need to identify yourself if you want to use that microphone. Sart of
>> Nope. Use that microphone standing up. Use a standing mic. Standing microphone. Standing. Standing. Stand up. And just identify yourself. Just spell your first name. >> Sedartha. S I D. >> Slow. >> Okay. S I D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H A R T H A
>> and your last name is Sing, I assume. >> No, but can you spell that? >> Yeah. B A G H E L. >> At this point, you know what I want to do? Let me get all three of you sworn in. Can all three of you raise your right hand? Both of you swear or affirm the testimony that you're going to give
or already gave in this matter is the truth. Whole truth about the truth. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. What do you know about this? And can you explain what's going on? >> So, um we needed some minor revisions to the
septic plane um because once uh we spoke with the contractor um the county um county wanted to have some revisions or something to it. I'm not exactly sure. And then that delayed our construction um uh for the other stuff.
>> This is what I want to know. >> Why are you unable just to contact the bonding company and get a performance guarantee and post the inspection escros so you can get your construction permit? What is holding that up? Because that's that's what you need the extension for.
So what is the problem with doing that? They don't want to do it until they do the septic thing or they can't do it until they do the septic thing. >> I think they they don't I I don't know the exact detail. >> C can I explain? >> Absolutely. >> So what happened when we were talking to
contractor they were saying that when septic will start they will start building septic they will bring bring uh uh big machinery and that may ruin our parking lot or back road. So it is better to get that septic pl septic belt
and then do the road construction and all that so that nothing will go wrong with that. Um, I'm going to leave this up to the board. I >> don't understand why >> it's being held up. >> Yeah. >> Why they didn't move forward with just
getting correct >> posting their performance fund. So you guys take it take it over because >> I'll follow your lead. >> And when are they asking for the extension? >> Huh? >> Uh end of next year.
>> So right now, right, the last extension that was granted. >> Okay. >> Expired last month, right? November. The last extension that was granted gave them until November 4, 2025 to get the
construction permits. >> Yeah. >> The reason Jeff says they will not issue construction permits is because they haven't posted a performance guarantee in the the engineering inspection escorts. >> I I think just from the standpoint that
it's already expired, we should extend it. >> Okay. So, let me ask you this. You're you're seeking to go from November 4, 2025 to November 4, 2026. >> Yes.
>> Do you have a plan of when this is going to get done? >> So, our plan is to start that septic um in January because contractor is he's saying that he will be available in January. But at the same time once that is done, we will line up contractor
right to get that the other work done. So we are thinking that by the end of um se September or October we will we will be able to finish it but way ahead of November that is >> we need the permits first. >> Yeah. So we will be coming here once
that September is done. We will be coming to here for >> can they do a septic without getting a construction permit from you? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So >> it's really the we're just waiting on the bond and the es and the escrow inspection escrow. And they chose >> what we're trying to find out is when do
you think you'll be coming into the municipal building to post the performance guarantee and the engineering inspections to get your building permit? When do you think I'm not asking when you think you'll be done? When do you think you'll be coming in to get those? >> So
we do not have like maybe in one or two like the contractor that you were talking to. So maybe give us like a month or two months we will finalize the contractor because contractor will also have to give us like the bond and all that information it will be coming from the contractor right?
>> Norally the contract normally the contractor does not post the performance guarantee or the engineering inspections. The owner posts the performance guarantee and the engineering inspections. >> Okay. So just at least 3 months we will be
able to >> is that enough? >> Yeah. >> I thought that that kind of >> a little bit >> building a septic system in January. Does that typically happen? >> Yeah. >> When when does the ground freeze?
>> Yeah, that's pretty. >> Did someone tell you that they could build? >> That is what they were saying and that is why we are asking seeking approval here. They said that they have as the septic is done, they can post the bond, but it's irrelevant. >> Yeah, it's irrelevant.
>> It's irrelevant, but in their mind, that's what they're thinking. Okay. But I'm very concerned about a septic in January. >> So, I think the year >> listen granted the underlying approval and thought it was a great idea, right?
>> Yeah. >> So, you for whatever reason, but but I need a a legal reason to put in the resolution. I understand that you guys are like, "No problem. We'll give them a year extension." What do I What's the reason that I >> to provide some flexibility so that
there's not environmental damage from trying to construct a septic system during weather that may be unsuitable. >> Thank you. >> Yes. Good job. >> There we go. I do recommend just usually just because a lot of applicants, they work with
their attorneys when getting ready to post a bond or inspection escrow. But you're more than welcome to reach out to the township engineers office and our office to work on how you post that because those two things have to happen before zoning permits and construction
permits can actually start for the construction of the project. >> Yeah. and a cost estimate was was done by the township engineer. So those forms have been available. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And that's totally separate from constructing your septic system that
>> so the bonds have to be posted in the inspection. >> Okay. >> Escrow. So >> Okay. Okay. >> I just have a quick question. Is there any risk in doing the septic system before they have construction permits and everything? because if they had to change any of their plans.
>> Well, quite listen, if it were me, but this is not legal advice, but I wouldn't want to spend the money to put in a septic system before I have my construction permit in case the thing runs out. But that's that's not legal advice. That's >> Yeah, >> that's just me. >> And I think Jeff answered that and said,
"No, >> but that's their right. If they want to >> they want to go put the septic system in before they have construction permits, >> they have the right to do that. >> Construction permits just allow you to proceed with construction >> of the building >> of the building. Correct. >> Right.
>> Yeah. >> So, >> and then there's also the road, >> right? >> Well, that's what they're thinking of the road because I think the building's there and pretty much >> Yeah. Most most of it is already improved. >> Yeah. Okay. So, can I get
>> want to Yeah. Make a motion to modify >> condition number 13 to grant a further extension of the time to obtain the construction permits to November 4, 2026. >> I'll make a motion. >> I second that motion.
>> Okay. Roll call, please. >> Chairwoman, Miss Cynthia Schaefer, >> yes. >> Mr. Randy Block, >> yes. >> Miss Lindsey Kringal, >> yes. >> Miss Loretta Cina, >> yes. >> And Miss Donna Drews, >> yes. Okay, thank you.
Okay, moving on to the next. Thank you so much. >> Moving on to the next application for this evening. BOA case number 12-2020 and BOA 12-2025. Applicant is the Fudge Shop Land Group LLC
block 36 lot 6510 Mill place application minor site plan with devariance relief for manufacturing use and residential use in the B3 zone. Good evening. >> Good evening. >> Good evening. Scott Bulock on behalf of
the applicant of the foot shop. Uh we're here to ask for uh and I should have done this sooner. I didn't realize until after it had passed that I had given an extension until September 30th. I think it was around October 5th that I
realized that uh this had originally been noticed for application for lot 65 and lot 68 had been noticed for the June meeting and kind of at zero hour uh I found out from Mr. Varela that we also had to include a vacant lot uh which is
lot 66 in this application. Uh lot 66 is vacant but it's going to have a path that's going to lead between the existing retail store and the proposed light manufacturing to transport the products between the manufacturing and the retail without having to use a
public road. Uh Michael White enforce me they they're looking into a electric uh like golf cart type vehicle to do that so that everything gets transported entirely on the private properties and not out on uh Route 202. And uh my understanding is the engineer Steve
Parker uh has been working on has almost completed the uh sort of sketches or blueprints for this road which is not going to be paved. I think it's just going to be some type of crushed stone or something because it's not going to be used by any type of heavy trucks or anything. Just say it's like golf cart.
>> Can I ask you a quick question? >> Sure. >> So, your letter references lot 68 and 65. So, you're saying there's a third lot in between 68 and 65. >> Yeah. 66 is the one that's going to have this path on it, Mr. Drill. And uh there
I I need to file an application for blood 66. So you need to amend basically Jeff what is on file right now applications for what? So what we what ended up happening it went from one lot to then
to application per lot with the same plan, >> right? >> So that's so now they they have to apply. >> Now I I recall that they were here >> and during the testimony in the two lots they were asked, "How are you getting the right
>> fudge or whatever when it gets delivered from the one lot? How you getting it to the other lot?" And they said, "We're going over this middle lot." No, they said they're going to go around the road. >> They're going to go around the road, >> right? Now, so now they have to amend the application for the three lots >> to No, to include the third
>> because they never did in the the second application. >> Okay. So, when was this application filed? What I'm Let me If if Mr. Parker is still doing this. It might be a lot cleaner if they just dismiss the
application without prejudice and then you file a new application and clean it up. Otherwise, you have an application for lot 68, you have an application for lot 65, then you're going to have a third application for lot 66. You have to consolidate the applications. If the board just
dismisses it without prejudice and you file a new application for three lots, it's probably going to make at least the board professionals life, probably your own, a lot easier. Can you talk to your client about that? >> Uh, yeah. I was just going to say though, it's really just going to be one plan though.
>> Correct. >> This was submitted on April 29th, 2020. >> Is there a problem out there now? They're just doing it without site plan approval, I assume. >> I don't think they're they're not using
the operations. >> Yeah, they're not. >> Okay. >> So, what is the easiest thing from your perspective? >> I think the easiest thing is just have one plan, one application, but if if they're if they're ready to submit and and get it going, that's
>> it's one thing for Mr. Bulock to say that Steve Parker's ready to submit. It's another thing to know if Mr. Parker is really ready to submit. Okay. If he's ready to submit, is he ready this week, next week, a month? >> So, we we were talking about getting on
>> Can you identify yourself director? >> Oh, uh Stephen Murray. Um we were talking about potentially being on the January or February um >> submissions. >> Yeah. Meeting or >> well for a hearing or for the submission. In other words, Parker needs
to submit a plan that includes the lot 66. When did he say that he'd be in a position to give you that plan? >> Um, I asked him if he'd be ready by for January, but I guess >> the bottom line is if he was going to say next week, I might advise you
differently, but I think the cleanest way to do this, just dismiss it without prejudice. >> When Parker has the plan, >> you submit, >> okay, >> a new application for in which is going to involve the three Lats. >> Yeah. And the owners of the three lots, whoever they are, are going to sign the
consent. >> Yeah. >> One application, one plan, a lot easier for all the professionals to work on and present to the board. >> Makes sense to me. >> So, I want to make a motion then to dismiss it without prejudice so they can resubmit.
>> I'll make a motion. >> I second. >> Roll call. >> Chairwoman, Miss Cynthia Schaefer. >> Yes. >> Mr. Randy Block. >> Yes. Miss Lindsay Cooper. >> Yes. >> Miss Lorett Cina. >> Yes. >> And Miss Donna Drews.
>> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Good luck. >> I I am going to do a resolution, a very short resolution on this just so there's a copy for the file and also the hearing commenced on this thing. >> Okay. >> And we'll make it clear that it's without prejudice
to allow resubmission. >> Well, I can't say once it's submitted, we're we're familiar with it. Yeah. >> One application, not three. >> One one application, >> one >> listing the three lots on the one
application. One plan listing the three lots on the plan. >> That's that's great sense at this juncture, I think. Yeah. >> All right. Thank you. Very good. >> Only because you're here, we can still use the same escrow account >> for the application. So >> So there's Okay.
>> Well, once you guys are ready to refile, we'll talk them. But >> yeah, I don't know if there's a balance or whatever you >> I will contact you if need be. >> Thank you. >> That's great. >> Okay, >> have a nice night. >> All right, moving on to the uh next
application for this evening. BOA case number 13-2025 applicant Divine Mercy Healing Center, Inc. Location block 15, lot 1531 Britain Drive. Application request for a non-conforming use certificate of a retreat center/urch.
Good evening. >> The main event. >> I'll just put my >> Yeah. introduction. Pat Serillo on behalf of the applicant Divine Mercy Healing Center, Inc. >> and uh Mr. Joe wanted to put something on the record. >> Yeah. So, I spoke with Mr. Cerillo
before the hearing. Okay. The application is to seek under section 68 of the MLUL a certificate of lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use. >> I'm sorry. Before we start, do we need
to recuse? >> I'm so sorry. Randy has to recuse himself. Thank you for reminding me. >> All right. I'm sorry. Thank you, >> Randy. Have a nice night. >> Good night, Randy. >> Randy, >> I'm sorry. >> I totally forgot about that. Thank you so much. You get >> right. Randy once he's off the
>> D. >> Thank you. >> Once you're off the D. >> There we go. Okay. >> So, they have submitted two application forms, the correct forms
in my opinion. The one application form seeks a certificate of non-conforming use pursuant to NJSA 405D-68. So section 68 says if you have a lawfully created pre-existing use,
meaning a use that pre-existed either the adoption of the first zoning ordinance which was adopted in 1956. I'm not going to testify. Jeff, let me just get you sworn in right now for you swear testimony. You're going to give the truth truth. Nothing but truth. >> I do. >> Okay. First zoning ordinance the
township was adopted when? >> 1956. >> Okay. So, or let's say that in 1956 a retreat center was a permitted use, but let's say in 1972
an ordinance was adopted or amended which made it prohibited. Again, if the retreat center was lawfully created prior to either the first ordinance or an ordinance which prohibited it, under the municipal land use law, the use is entitled to be continued. And you guys
have had a couple of these sort of applications also. They've applied under NJSA 405D-70B and 70B gives the board the authority to interpret the ordinance.
So the issue here is the application says the application for the certificate of a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use says
that primary use of the facility will be for three-day live-in retreats and weekly prayer gatherings accommodating about 30 to 35 people. The application for the interpretation
>> basically says that they they want the retreat center interpreted as a house of worship. >> Yeah. >> Now this property let me get Jeff what what zone is property located in? >> R3.
>> Okay. The R3 zone allows houses of worship as a conditional use in accordance with ordinance section 29698D. That's conditional uses and conditional use number two is houses of worship.
Then you go to the conditional use section of the ordinance which is 296- 151g and it has a bunch of conditions that have to be satisfied in order for a conditional house of worship to be permitted. If those conditions are
satisfied, you go to the planning board and you get conditional use approval. If those conditions are not satisfied, you go to the board of adjustment for a D3 conditional use fairance. Now, what has happened here? What has happened here in
the past from a zoning perspective? Who went to the planning board for what? when >> uh the Little Sisters of the Poor went to the planning board for a site plan waiver
for a um a retreat center >> in 19 No, >> no, it was a subdivision >> a subdivision of lot 1501 off of lot 15. >> Yes. >> Okay. And when was that? 1973. >> 1970. >> 1970.
>> Okay. Did the planning board review what was on what was remaining on lot 15 at the time? >> No, the use of it was not discussed. It was just the the lock lot creation. So,
one of the issues is that if you look at ordinance section 296-151G, one of the conditional use requirements is you need minimum lot frontage of 150 ft. Do they have 150 ft? >> No.
>> What do they have? They have less than 150 ft. And one of the other requirements, so that is requirement G2 that you need 150 ft of frontage.
Requirement G1D is you need off- streetet parking and loading facilities provided as required in other parts of the chapter. But do they have off streetet loading and parking requirements in compliance with other
parts of the chapter? >> No, it is not designated as per content standards. >> So far, they're not applying for a conditionally conditional house of worship.
They haven't filed that application. If they did want to file an application for a conditional house of worship, they wouldn't be able to go to the planning board because they don't meet two of the conditions. So, they couldn't go for conditional use approval. They
have to come to the board of adjustment for a D3 conditional use. >> But the question is, is a retreat center a church? So, I did a bunch of legal research this
afternoon and a retreat center under certain under certain circumstances could be a church, but under other circumstances it can't be a church. So Jeff went out to look for example if
the use of the property was primarily church and also had a retreat center maybe under some of the cases that the retreat center could be considered part and parcel of the church. Also, a retreat center could be considered an
accessory use to a church under certain circumstances. But unfortunately for them, the accessory printed accessory use provisions of ordinance 296-98
that apply to the R3 zone and a lot of accessory use ordinances throughout the state and in the township. One of the permitted accessory uses is customary uses incidental to a use. This ordinance doesn't say that.
This ordinance has a list of eight accessory uses and the one can so ordinance 296-98 C6 says one of the permitted accessory uses is customary uses incidental to an
agricultural or horicultural use permitted in this zone. It doesn't say that there's a permitted accessory use for a customary an incidental use for a church. So the retreat center can't be an
accessory use or in my opinion a permitted use under the township's ordinance. So that's why quite frankly they applied for the lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use because if they could prove that the retreat center was
created before the adoption of this conditional use ordinance. Although their best bet would be if they could prove that and the conditional use ordinance
of course doesn't say when it was adopted. We know that this ordinance in general was well Jeff is it true that this ordinance in general was adopted in 1974 the newer ordinance then it was updated like in the 1980s?
>> Yes. primarily. Yes, it was an 80s was yes 74 was what the first update. >> Do we know in 1956 whether a retreat center would be permitted on the property? >> To the best of my knowledge, I I don't know.
>> So, up until I got here tonight, I was thinking, okay, they put on their proofs, they called witnesses, and all they got to do is pro, you know, prove. pro. Now, they have to trace back. The problem is as the years go on, when I started out 40 years ago,
>> Mhm. >> It was a lot easier to prove the existence of a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use because the people that knew about it were alive. >> Mhm. >> And now we're 40 years later and a lot of people that know about when these things are created unfortunately have passed away. So, we
don't have a witness anymore. But someone passed someone from the applicants team passed out proposed testimony of Reverend Mark Can and I looked at it and on the top of page two it says the little sisters began you began use of the property as a retreat
house in 1973. Well, if that's when the use began, it's not going to be lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use because it's not going to be before
>> an ordinance with these conditional use requirements for a house of worship, which in my opinion is not. And because nowhere in the ordinance does it say a retreat center, for example, in Clinton Township >> Mhm. Camps and retreat centers are permitted
in certain zones. There's no zone in the township that specifically says retreat centers or camps for that matter. >> Camp maybe >> camp maybe but not retreat center >> not retreat center. >> So you have this general ordinance that
says if something is not specifically permitted in the zone is prohibited. So what I talked to Mr. Cerillo about beforehand. In light of everything I just said to you guys, which I said to him before, but I wanted to put it on the record. I think they're better off withdrawing the application to try to
have the board declare this a lawfully lawfully create a pre-existing non-conforming use and apply for a use variance and site plan. Okay? Because maybe you're going to make an argument that a retreat center is inherently beneficial,
especially because it has religious aspects to it. So, can you talk to your clients, reps, and then you want to take a fivem minute recess? >> Yeah. One of the questions I know on page two of of um Father Mark's
summary here, he says little sisters started using it as as the right >> retreat. The question, and I haven't asked him this yet, is >> like, do we know the original owner use it as a retreat? Because the building was built in 53 between 53 and 56 according to Mr. Vakarella's memo to the
board. >> Um and the uh >> my understanding is that when it was originally built it was used as a monastery which would not be a retreat center. >> Yeah. >> And in fact that says on page one he says
Pat he says in on page one in 1970 the Carmelite sisters resided in a monastery on the property. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it wasn't >> I may I'm father >> Can you identify yourself >> for the record?
>> Yeah. Um I'm Father Mark Rean. I'm the council for the Little Sisters of the Poor. >> Can you also raise your hand for you swear or affirm the testimony you're going to give the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? >> Yes, I do. The the question would be and and and council made a good point as the
years go on. Carmelaite monasteries traditionally, I'm not saying this one did. Traditionally, also received people to come to days of prayer. They were cloistered. If you go to the chapel, we showed the planner this afternoon, you would have the people coming and then it
would be a grill where the sisters were actually praying on the other side, but they did use it to receive people. And I >> The people that come, did they sleep over? >> What? >> The people that came to pray in the chapel, did they sleep over? That I don't know, right? That I don't know.
>> Yeah. So, we couldn't provide testimony as to the priority with the We don't have anybody from that era that can test them. That's that's the problem. >> See, it says on page two, in 1980, after
renovations and upgrades, the Little Sisters began to bring groups of residents accompanied by Little Sisters to the retreat house for vacations. That's when I based on his statement, written statement, that's when I think the retreat center started in 1980 and
that's clearly after the ordinance was adopted. >> Yeah. One of the sticky wickets too is that from Mr. Bakarella's um great research that he did find I see in his memo the zoning officer in August of 88 issued a zoning permit for the retreat
house. So, there was a permit issued to use it as a retreat house. >> Do you have a copy of the permit? >> Yes. >> Let's see what it says because a lot of times what happens is the a permit is issued for a structure and it doesn't say what it can be used for.
>> Yeah, that's that was a garage. >> Garage. >> Yeah. >> Is that in my package? It should be in Jeff's technical report. >> It says garage. >> It's attached to your report. >> Yeah.
>> Do me a favor. Can you >> I have a copy here. You want one? >> I just want to get Jeff. Here's your report. Can you >> find that and give it to me? Open to the page. >> That one. Pat, if you don't mind, can you speak closer to the microphone of
the property is So, >> so it's an 88. >> It says calls it a retreat house and the description is a pre-fabricated Morton steel building. Does it say anything about Did the
application that came in for it say anything about it proposed use? >> No. No comments, no conditions. >> That's strange. Yeah. Well, actually from 1988 it's not strange. Just just so you know, we've
>> we've been the board has had a bunch of these >> interpretations for lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming uses. I would say probably of about 10 of them over the last three years, >> they've probably granted one or two and all the rest came back for use
variances. Yeah. because the zoning permits that were issued were no help. >> Understood. >> So, you want to just talk to your client off the record? >> Yeah, if I may. Um, I know I I actually
worked in this Flemington and they first began. I've been working with the little sisters at one point or another for almost 55 years. So, I've known them a long time and I would come down in 1972. The sisters the sisters received it. This it was a gift from the Carmelites
um as a condition for them to build the the monetary they have now. So it was based on a donor. They were using this as a retreat house from day one. Now they were only using it for the little sisters of the poor. So you could you might you might have been able to
classify it as a convent or a house of of residence for them. But the purpose the use that they were doing were were having retreats. The sisters would fly in from all over the country. They'd have 40 to 45 sisters and then only in the 80s in the 1980s and it's again part
of the mission of the little sisters. They do everything as a family. So they taken the elderly poor in their homes and they thought it would be a good idea to use this beautiful property so that they can give the residents vacations in the summertime. But every vacation
included worship services and prayer. The sisters run their homes like a monastery because they have prayer and then they eat. prayer, mass, and they eat. They kind of have that that rhythm of life. >> How how do you know what you're now saying? How do you know that that >> because I I I used to drive the
residents here. >> But what year? Since what year? >> Starting in 72 7273, I planted rose bushes the first in the winter because they were moving one of their other homes with a blowtorrch. I can tell a lot of stories, but in the
end, in the end, they were using this as a retreat house. And then when I saw the variance here in 1988, I assume somebody gave them counsel that they needed to apply for it and they did the application. So, you know, I'm I am an attorney and I would say, you know, the
sisters relied on that and we relied on it when we the sisters realize they have to leave. They just can't stay. They don't have enough sisters. >> Everything you're saying, right, that's not what your statement says. I was reading off your statement that you handed into the file.
What what what doesn't say it. >> The stuff you're saying now is not in this statement. >> I'm trying to respond to kind of >> Okay. >> Well, there's two statements. Do you have the one from Reverend Mark? >> Yeah, that's the one. >> Yeah, >> that's the one I'm I'm reading from. >> Got Yeah.
>> So, we don't have >> Yeah, we don't have >> But I I do say I talk about the decline in the sisters. >> You know, let's >> You do want me? >> Yeah. Let's hand out his statement to everybody because I assume he was going to he said this is what he was going to testify to. So you might as well just
hand it out. >> I didn't get a chance to speak to him before tonight about Mr. Vakarella's letter his concerns about what test. >> So maybe if you don't want to dismiss without prejudice tonight, maybe you should say let us come back another
time. you make a decision on if you want to proceed with the application you filed or whether you want to file one for a use variance because you you have not I can't bind the board but you have a very good inherently beneficial use case and no matter what even if they
give you the interpretation that you're seeking tonight you still need in my opinion site plan approval >> you want to take a fivem minute recess Sorry. I'm sorry. >> The meeting back to order. >> Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, yeah, my client would like to proceed.
>> Okay. At his own risk, at their own risk. Um, so, um, Father Mark has been sworn in. So, I'm going to start with his testimony. Father Mark, as we discussed, the issue really is, you know, when did the uh retreat house
activity start? >> It's not when the retreat house activity started. It's when the did the use of the property as a retreat start. And retreat, if you do have a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use that can continue, it
has to be substantially similar. So, you have to first have them start out what is the use that they want to make of the place now. then go back what was the use what year we need to know the exact you know specifics of the use they want
to make of it now >> that's yeah so then I'm going to swear in if we could father uh Joseph Kapali he's the >> people should be swearing in over there >> uh really just these two
>> okay so let's let's start from scratch here let's have the two fathers and Jeff sworn. So, can you guys raise your right hand? Even though you were sworn, we're going to swear you a second time. All you guys, we're going to swear you in a second
time to swear or affirm that the testimony you given this matter is the truth. Hold nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. And can each of you identify yourself for the record? Let's start down in the end and then we'll work our way this way. Uh, Father Mark and
Council Little Sisters of War LC. >> Father Joseph Kumbly, the director of Divine Mercy. >> Say that one. You're going to have to spell your last name for me. >> K A N A M.
>> Can you spell the name for me? >> K A N. A M as in Mary. Jim, >> you know what? That's great. >> Yeah. Let me start over. K A N is in Nancy. N is in Nancy. A M is in Mary. P
is in Patrick. A L L Y. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Jeff Beckerella, Township Planner. >> Okay, there we go. Father Joseph, if you could come to this microphone, stand here. It could be
easier. All right. Tell us, you're a representative of the purchaser of the property, right? >> Yes. >> All right. And can you tell us what you intend for the use of the property after you purchase the property? >> Good evening and thank you for inviting
me. I'm Father Joseph Kumbly serving as the director of Divine Mercy Healing Center. Do you have an extra copy of what you're reading from? That would be very helpful. >> Yeah. >> And if you have any extras to give to the board, >> I think I submitted those uh with my
cover letter. Um it was number six of my cover letter, a three-page statement of applicant as to its sacred purposes as an institution. Okay, this is one. Which one are you reading from? I said
>> the new one. Okay. Sorry. >> I don't think so. >> If you just have one, you might have copies. >> Yeah, he has more than one. Oh, >> more. >> I'll tell you what. Let's Let's get copies made. Can you give them to Taylor? Let's have copies made for everybody.
>> Are we pausing? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We're going to take a uh take another recess. >> And Lindsay, we will email you a copy of this statement tomorrow, but it would be great if you can read your statement and everyone can follow you.
Good evening. Um, thank you all the dignity dignitaries of uh Ritan Township for giving the opportunity to present our mission today. I'm father Joseph Kumbly serving as the director of divine mercy healing center the purchaser of
the property at 31 Britain Drive Ritan New Jersey. Uh there is a introduction about a congregation. Divine mercy healing center operates under the Vincent congregation of the Roman Catholic universal church. Our religious
congregation was founded in India in 1904 by servant of godfather Wii Kartraat which is inspired by the life and spirituality of St. Vincent Debor, the patron of the poor and the charitable
societies throughout the universal church. Our mission is centered on evangelization through preaching, serving the poor and supporting education, social and charitable works.
Our spiritual retreat ministry dedicated to renewing the lives of the faithful now extends through 82 retreat centers in 20 countries and the Divine Mercy Healing Center New Jersey is one of
these centers. The ministry's presence in the United States first US center established in 2003 at Washington, New Jersey which operates within the territory of Dasis of Metricin
and our retreats and liturgies are available in English, Spanish, Portuguese and other regional languages facilitated by our committed team of volunteers and some of them are very present here.
The key ministries and impact our 3-day spiritual residential retreats provide a focused silent environment for faithful fostering deep reflection and personal spiritual renewal.
Youth renewal ministry formation programs for teens and young adults and men's conferences faith formation and spiritual renewal program for men and divine angels are unique faith
formation initiative for young children and parish outreach missions uh regularly conducting missions and parish renewal retreats in communities. ities across the various locations.
Why a retreat house is needed? At present, we are limited in providing participant accommodation at a single location. As we sought a more suitable facility,
we learned about our Our Lady of Providence retreat house in the township of Ritton and recognized how its environment aligns perfectly with our ministry ministry's mission and goals.
With this retreat house, we can offer a peaceful focused environment that minimizes external distractions and fosters deep spiritual renewal. On behalf of uh Divine Mercy Healing
Center and the Vincent Congregation, I sincerely thank dign dignitaries of uh Ritton Township for giving us the opportunity to share our mission and we request that the board continue to allow
the property to be used as a Catholic retreat center and we deeply appreciate your time, consideration, and prayers and we look forward working together to serve the spiritual needs of our region. Thank you. Uh Father Joseph, can you
tell me are you planning any changes to the structures at the premises? No, we don't do any any kind of changes uh because we find it apt for our retreats and we we have uh our weekend retreats
like uh uh 30 to 40 people and we could see that that much people can be accommodated there and we don't have uh any that is why we are coming here we don't need to construct or do anything else there is perfectly for our purpose that we feel the weekend retreat how
many people did you Okay. >> We have a 30 to 40 people we take. >> Okay. 30 to 40 people weekday. >> Yeah. >> Weekends. Weekends. Our retreats begins Friday morning and it ends uh 2:30 p.m. on Sunday.
>> Okay. And how do they get there? >> They come uh >> they drive the bus, the van. >> Yeah. In their own means. We we they have their own means either in the bus or in the vehicle as a family they
come >> carpool. Carp pooling some of them. >> So that's weekends. Does anyone also come to the retreat center during the week? >> We have uh 3 days retreat separate for them.
>> Okay. So what happens during the week? Nothing there or >> weekdays we have regular mass but only uh the neighbors if they wish otherwise we only there. >> How many people is that? >> Maybe at present we are in Washington we
have only uh eight or six people comes daily for the mass other >> six to eight people during the weekdays for mass. >> We don't know how many here but but they're not sleeping over. They're just >> No no no only weekends we have living retreat. Got it.
What time of day are the masses during the weekdays? weekdays we have at present in Washington we have 6:30 evening 6:30 p.m. we have the mass rosary at 6:00 and 6:30 p.m. So some people who are neighbors they may join.
That's all. We don't have a big programs like >> it's it's open to the public. >> It's open to the public but uh you know uh weekdays we won't get people. These all our uh volunteers they come from New York, New Jersey and also only weekends they come to help other
>> questions. >> Yeah. Um, are there other services? In the information we were provided, there's a reference to uh other services besides retreats and masses. Um, do you anticipate doing some of those other
types of um activities? We mentioned about the youth renewal program, children uh divine angels men's conference all these uh within the uh 3 days weekend retreat like we we give
them uh retreat for uh men's conference means retreat for men alone like that retreat for youth retreat for children so one program will be there in weekend that's >> what what this board member is referring to >> yes >> Mr.
submitted this on November 26, 2025. He submitted a statement. We didn't know who wrote it. I guess you wrote it. A two-page statement was a flyer.
>> That's our annual program. >> The flyer is your annual program. Yeah. You take these pictures. >> Yeah, we took the pictures. >> When did you take the pictures? uh maybe 3 weeks back when they asked me to take it. >> So sometime in November 2025.
>> Yes, that's what uh we we took the picture. >> Board members have any other questions? >> Is it every weekend? >> Not every weekend. We have the annual flyer there. Uh we take a maybe two weekend programs in a month. Well, put
it this way. Is the schedule for 2025? It was for 2025, >> right? >> So, the schedule for 2025, you included, you attached it to your statement. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, that shows what weekends >> would be used. Yes. >> Yes. Yes.
>> Do you plan on expanding this any? >> No. >> So, like in November, it's three weekends. December is >> Yeah. Three weekends. according to the season it's a season of advent like that we have but our common understanding is
that two programs in a week maybe during the lent you all know that uh some uh one or two programs extra will be there but it's on based on season otherwise >> August it looks like every weekend >> pardon
>> in August looks like every >> people in the audience cannot tell him what to say >> no no did I hear them. I kept my mouth shut. You can't tell him what to say. He's the witness. If you want to say something, we'll swear you in and you say something. >> Do you want a copy of what was submitted?
>> No, no, it's okay. I I know that I prepared it. So, I know um August we have the summer retreats. That's what I shared like uh we have some special occasions Advent and um Lent and then we
have the summer August we have a uh certain programs. One program will be a retreat for the religious sisters and uh one will be for family renewal, one will be youth retreat. So different uh because of the summer holidays time we
focus on different groups. Otherwise a common understanding is that for two retreats in a month but uh summer lent and advent we will have some one or two retreats extra. This is once in a while
we are having religious sisters retreat or youth retreat that happens in summer holidays. >> So August 11th through the 15th is during the week. >> Yeah. That is what the religious sisters retreat that only once in a year it
happens. So sisters will be free from the school. So they need five days retreat. You know the sisters are here. We priest all of us have our constitution says to us to have the annual retreat for 5 days. So we have it for 5 days uh for the religious
otherwise you know the the people here they are working and they will be free only weekend. So we have uh retreat for people at weekends only this once in a year in the month of August uh for religious sisters we have a retreat they
need five days. Yeah that's >> how many sisters approximately do you have for that? We have uh uh 26 28 of them came for the retreat. >> So how many people staff are you the only one there during the week other
than that one week in August or do you have a staff? >> We have uh two priests are working now in the house and we don't have anyone to as employees. We have all these are uh volunteers who comes and helps us. >> Wait but the volunteers come on the weekends.
>> Yes. So it's you and another priest. >> Yeah, we at the at present we two uh earlier there were three but now we only two of us. It depends upon two or three will be there in the community. Weekdays we are only there and >> it's your testimony that everything you've just testified to as going on at
your current location is what you propose to have going on at this location if you purchased the building. Is that correct? Yes, we will continue on and what what we feel that we don't have facility to accommodate everyone in one place for 30 people we are seeing
now what we are doing uh different locations we are seeing sending them to take rest and come back for the retreat so they find difficulty to travel that's why we were looking for a a a place where everyone can stay once they step into Friday morning they will go after
the retreat on Sunday afternoon so we were looking for a facility like that and that is what we could feel that this is up for us. So what you're saying is the retreats listed on this annual planner occurred at different locations because your
facility was not big enough to handle it or all these retreats all these retreats happening one place. People after the retreat night they have to go to other location to stay. We have a house there. Yeah. So night they have to travel again
morning they have to come back to the uh Washington where the retreat is going on. We have another house we bought. They are staying there and coming back. So, it's difficult. That's what uh we thought of looking for this place.
>> Any board members in including Lindsay have any questions? >> I'm just in looking at the flyer they provided. Um I I I'm thinking it's more like three weekends. Um there are some months where
it's two, but there's a significant amount where it's three. Um I just um >> what >> I believe I counted it and it looks like it's 28 weekends. >> 28 weekends. Okay, thank you. So someone
Okay. Um Donna or um Lorett, do you want to bring up the other thing that you were discussing? >> Sure. I also >> nice and loud into that microphone. Are your um participants coming from the dasis of Matachin or all over from like
globally even? >> No, people comes from uh uh all over US. >> Okay. >> Mostly our crowd is from New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania from these tri states. >> Mhm. >> Some people may be during holidays time,
vacation time, summer holidays maybe coming from other states also but very rare. But main crowd is from New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. >> A question that I share with some other of the board members has to do with fire
safety. And we were wondering what your um fire uh code occupancy is. And if the number of people that are going to be participating, including your volunteers
and your staff, if you are within that um number, usually it's set by >> I should I should have asked something. If there's 30 to 40 people participating in the retreats, how many volunteers is that does that include the volunteers or also volunteers?
>> Yeah, volunteers, you know, um they're not staying there. volunteers come uh uh mornings uh uh for example Christina is here she comes to accommodate them they give the registration and evening she goes back to her house
>> so you're saying all the volunteers that are sitting out in the audience now none of them sleep over on the weekends they just come and they go back >> I I just say like this you know uh we take uh at present we have a uh in different locations to give accommodation so uh
>> put it this way at this location if you purchase Yeah. >> What's the plan for the volunteers? Will they stay over on the weekends or just coming and going? >> We will have two or three volunteers to stay there to help the retreatants. Otherwise, all of them are volunteers.
They go back to their house. >> Okay. So, do you know does Mr. Serillo does if he doesn't know does anyone know what the the fire um >> maximum >> help me here. The fire maxitting.
>> Yeah. Anybody know? >> Oh, great question. All right, so we got to find that out. I mean, there's like 50 bedrooms in this place. It's huge, but >> Well, but the building is built was built a long time ago. And if we're going to expand on the services that
you're asking for, I would assume that there may need an upgrade if you're going to do this every every other weekend. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this isn't this is sisters having a retreat versus now it's every other weekend.
>> Yeah. And just to clarify, I I'm misrepresented. It's actually 30 total. 29 are three-day and one is the multi-day. >> Okay. >> So, you're saying there's >> there's two to three weekends per month
of retreats. How many what's the total number of retreats? uh listed on this sheet is 30 and one of those is a multi-day during the week is a fiveday >> Jeff do we I I mean we're talking about not so have we established
>> well we haven't got >> yeah just we have >> we're still not ready to go back in time yet >> okay >> so that those are the retreats now it says on the statement that you submitted to the board on the second page it says Your centers continue to serve the
people of God through a wide range of ministries including so the first bullet is retreats and daily masses. You've talked about that. The second one is language specific outreach. That's off the premises or that's going to be in on the premises.
>> The outreach is we are going to the parishes. >> Okay. Not not not within the compound. Youth formation programs such as theology of the body, CCD and youth evangelization initiatives at the premises or off the premises.
>> That's within the retreat house. >> Okay. When will that >> in the premises when during the week or on weekends? >> Weekends. >> That's one that's the three that's one of the three one of the retreats. >> That's one of the uses of the three days >> one of the retreats.
>> Okay. The divine angels program, a unique spiritual initiative crafted specially for children to nurture early faith formation. That's a retreat. Uh we have once in a while uh once in a year only retreat for them. But they have a
um uh a program like uh uh they come on Zoom and they they with their parents. >> So they're not coming to the premises. >> They they're not coming to the premises like that. They when they come their parents will be there for once a retreat
otherwise they have some faith formation with the guidance of their parents. >> Okay. The next one men's conferences and specialized support retreats and guidelines for men religious sisters and healthcare professionals that listed on the annual that's one of the retreats.
>> Yes. Yes. And then ongoing parish missions, active evangelization efforts across numerous parishes throughout the tri-state area. That obviously off the premises, you're going to parishes, correct? >> We go off the premises. We go as a team.
Priest go to the parishes. >> So you have like a commercial type of kitchen cuz and people will be preparing and serving food during the weekend retreats. No, we can retreat. We uh what we do is we order to the nearby restaurants.
>> So you either cater or you order in. >> No, we we order to the restaurants, >> right? >> Now what we are doing is that >> ordering food. There's no >> there is a commercial. >> No cooking. No cooking. We don't do cooking. Uh uh as for us now what we do, we don't do >> we're asking him what he does. We're
going to get to you >> in in the past like with him first. >> No. Uh for me we for our retreats we don't cook because we don't have a staff for that and we didn't think about it. We are doing what we are doing now we buy from the restaurants.
>> But if you buy the premises >> Yeah. >> And if hypothetically there's a kitchen in there will you still be ordering in or you'll be using the kitchen? >> No, we we will be ordering to the restaurants here. We are not going to use that kitchen. only for priest when
we stay there we may cook uh uh yeah yeah >> and obviously just to state the obvious the kitchen that's there is a commercial kitchen >> in the in the new uh yeah in the new premises yeah
>> in this pre premises yeah Okay. Any of you guys have any more questions? Mr. Shill, you want to have ask any more questions before we go to the next witness? Because >> I have to I assume everyone sitting in the public since you're all sitting on that side of the room very close to the applicant. I assume everyone's with the
applicant and there's no other interested parties here. Am I correct? Any interest? If you're an interested party other than related to the applicant, raise your hand. >> Everyone here is is with the applicant. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I have I have I have one question about
the parking >> louder. >> The parking it's what's what's there sufficient to what's being proposed? >> Yeah. what we feel that uh when we accommodate for 30 people or 40 people we see they come as a family. So there
will be you we usually do like that uh uh people comes as a family. So uh maybe 20 25 vehicles maximum will be there and we could see that it's not marked there but there are in the photos you can see there are lot of black tops within the
crown wall. They have 1100 acres of land and 600 acres land within the compound wall the property and the front side of the other side of the building and within the compound wall we could see the black to where we can park uh that
that's what we we thought that way of parking you attached some pictures to your station. >> Yeah. And some of the pictures some of the cars are parked up. Look like they're parked in.
>> It's it's uh uh some visitors maybe this is what when we visited there some of us when that gate was not open that day. >> The the caretaker was not there. So >> you know how many cars let's say that there are 40 people and each person is
driving their own car. Do you know how 40 cars will fit without you know people having to maneuver around each other? >> Yeah, I I I counted I counted around uh 40 42 vehicles. I could see within uh outside what you see there in that
picture and within the compound once you open the gate there are uh a lot of area black where we can park the vehicles. That's what >> nothing marked 40. It's not marked. >> It's not marked. >> It's not marked and it's along the road driving. not marked. >> It's not marked. It's not marked. So,
how do you count 40 spaces if they're not marked spaces? >> So, when I saw this property first, I went for looking into that and I saw that there is no mark. So, I went inside uh with some of our team members. Then we countered and we could see even
inside a little more aard inside after the building within the compound wall there are certain black top area where we can park. So we counted otherwise we won't go for that because I have to provide uh 25 30 at least 25 30 cars facility there when people comes and
stay with me for 3 days uh in the retreat house we should keep so I could see that place within the compound wall uh uh provided I say it is not marked that's only okay so how many before when you said that 30 to 40 people for a
retreat volunteers going to come and go what's the maximum number of volunteers you would have coming to a weekend retreat. >> We have uh volunteers but they don't come for every >> I understand. So I'm saying what would be the maximum number of
>> maximum uh 8 to 10 of them may come. >> So if there were 40 people at the retreat and 10 volunteers conceivably that's 50 cars. So you you're saying that in your opinion 50 cars can safely at the site. uh what we
do when we get the uh call for a registration for the retreat we see that our capacity and we accordingly we we stop the accommodation. So uh what people comes 40 people single people
won't come if then we will stop registration for 25 or 30 because uh what we say 40 the parents comes two children will be there or three children will be there they come in a car and we two priest only so we have to in between
the retreat we have to see all the participants so if we take more than 30 people single people we can't do justice to them >> okay thank your current location. What about at at this proposal? >> Here also we continue the same. We continue the same.
>> So what what is the maximum number of cars that you think can safely and efficiently park at this site? >> I can see around 340 uh even I counted all the area I counted black 42 vehicles
uh as far as I feel we counted there to >> you think that the property can safely and efficiently accommodate 40 cards you're saying, >> John, I'd like to drill down on that. >> Yeah. >> Um, did you The pictures are these part of your testimony?
>> Yes. Yes. Yes. That's attached to these things. >> He said he took those pictures in November of 2025. >> Uh, this picture what you see this is not in November. This took in month of June when we the volunteers we had a a prayer day there and we went there to
see. Then the caretaker was not there. Father Mark was not available. So they didn't open the door. >> So someone flew to take a picture like that. We took a drone picture. We took a dog. >> So my question, >> the drone pictures were taken in June of 2025 and the other pictures were taken November of 20. Is that correct?
>> Yes. >> Okay. So my question is um as a planning board we are concerned about fire safety, access of fire trucks, safe parking of vehicles, parking on on the area and looking at
the layout of the parking. Um I'd be very concerned about a fire truck accessing this property because there's cars parked along the driveway. uh >> not in designated areas it appears
narrow. >> Can I give replay? Yes. So the there the building uh once you open one side the gate you have around the building there is a blacktop road. >> Are you talking about this area here? >> Yeah there is one another side also same
road gate is there. So once you go you make a U shape around the building there is a road. >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is an entrance and other one is an entrance. I'm speaking about not the road, but there are parkings.
>> Are you sure that can a fire truck fit through that? >> Yeah. Yes. >> I I we need a traffic. >> I I don't know. >> Hold on for a second. >> This is there a survey of the property? >> I do not have one.
>> I I asked today before secretary, did you find anything in the files? What did you find? This is from is this from the variance plan or >> that's from the variance plan but it's not a >> it's not current. This is something dated in I can't even read >> those existing site conditions in on
January 12th of 2011. >> Yeah. >> Did you find any other plans? >> I have. But that's takes place attorney. Isn't someone
going to be ordering a survey? >> They don't want a survey. >> Why? >> Without a survey, you're going to have a problem. >> Without a survey, you're going to have a problem. >> Is there a reason?
>> No. Is there a reason? Is there a reason why they're not doing it? >> What? But it's a requesting performance, >> right? So >> So I uh I said no need of survey because when I approached them they said it's
more than 12,000 and 50,000. >> I understand Mr. If it is much we can do otherwise we thought why should we go for that. So, in order to compare, I mean, we're going to go to the next witness, but to compare, they
want to know how this thing is going to operate, the only way that they're going to be able to that you're going to be able to answer some of the questions is >> to have an engineer or a land surveyor and a survey >> because that way the engineer can then
say, "Yeah, if I laid this thing out and striped the parking, which the ordinance says is you have to do then you can fit x number of cars and if you laid it out like this you can fit a
fire truck around the building >> and then where are the ADA >> and how many do they need and where are they? >> I'm just I'm just saying that these questions are not going to be able to be satisfactory answered by this witness but we should use the time wisely and get some testimony from the other
witness about back in time. Okay. I know you have a I know you have opinions on things, but even though it's a it's called a lay opinion. It's not an expert opinion because only either a >> an engineer >> professional engineer or professional
land surveyor can look at a document and then draw a conclusion and then give an opinion to the board about whether it's going to be safe, not safe, how many cars can fit, and all that. It's nothing against you. It's just that it's a lay it's a lay opinion. It's not an expert opinion.
>> So, John, even if this goes past this evening, >> it's gone. >> There's There's no way. >> You're not correct. It's not going to finish tonight, but let's keep on going. >> No. No. But what I'm saying is even if it goes past tonight, we can't turn around and bring in our traffic engineer because there's nothing to
>> There's nothing to review. >> There's nothing to review. >> Correct. >> And and the fire department and so there's nothing to review. >> Correct. >> Yeah. The issue of capacity. >> Yeah. Fire capacity. fire rating capacity inside. >> Well, and the road that goes around is
it is it even can it is it a true road? Can it handle? Yeah. All these questions, >> all those questions in my opinion are not questions for >> this. Correct. >> Okay. So, if you have any other questions that he can answer, which would be based on his testimony or based
on what he submitted, ask him. Otherwise, let's use the time wisely and get to the next witness who's going to then explain to us what's occurred in the past and when. >> I I I don't think it's a question for this witness. I'll hold it off. Okay. It's a question for Jeff based on what
he's saying. >> Ask me. >> So, we have ordinances for for residential. We when we in my opinion, this is not residential. >> No, >> but it's going through a residential neighborhood. >> Yeah. There's a resial neighborhood. One
of our ordinances that we looked at um was around um the number of cars that would go down a street um and it happened to be for retail at that time. Our discussion was on retail. So my question is is there or is there
an ordinance that would restrict uh every other weekend 30 cars showing up and driving? So that's a lot of no ordinance. Okay. No. >> All right. I'm good. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Don't forget we have Lindsay just in
case she has any questions. >> Oh, but it's I think someone else can answer it if we wanted to go that route. But I was just going to say, are the people staying there consistently? So, you said that people come in and out. If there's 40ome cars, how many of them are truly leaving at the end of the day? and
just thinking of, as you said, Cynthia, the kind of residential area that it is and how much they're driving in and out. >> Yeah. So, what he testified to was if there are 40 participants in their retreat in the retreat, conceivably that
could be 40 cars coming in, staying overnight, coming in on Friday, staying overnight, and leaving on Sunday. The volunteers, he said, could be a max up to 10 at any one time. They're driving in and out every day. So on Friday you would have 40 potentially 40 retreat
cars coming in, 10 volunteers coming in and then Friday night the 10 volunteer cars going out. Saturday 10 coming in going out Sunday 10 coming in and then 50 going out. >> Okay. And then you mentioned also >> based on your testimony correct? >> Yes. >> You also mentioned buses. So is there
like a limit on how big of a bus? Like is it a charter bus that's coming through? Like just thinking that as well. So, just something to consider. >> Yeah. Put it different. He's not going to be able to answer that question. That's what you That's what you need an expert for. >> Okay. >> Okay. Can you answer that question?
>> No. >> No. Right. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Yeah. I'm going to go back to Father Mark Crian here. Um so, Father, if you could please um you when the father testifies, can you again, this would be
very helpful. Can he read his statement and then they can question him and he can add anything to it? But I think that's the the best way to go. >> Sure. >> Okay. My name is Father Mark and I am general counsel to the Little Sisters of the
Poor Brooklyn Province, Inc. who is the seller uh of the property. Uh the little sisters is an international Roman Catholic religious congregation of nuns dedicated to the care of the elderly poor. Founded in France in 1839 by St.
John Jugan. The mission of the little sisters is to provide a home for the elderly do not have the means to live their later years with dignity. The little sisters arrived in the United States in 1868 and in the state of New Jersey in 1878 when they established a
home for the agent in Newark. In 1970, the Carmelite sisters who resided in the monastery which is the sublist of this application made the decision to leave the monastery and find a new site to continue their monastic life. They
secured a benefactor who would build the sisters a new monastery and in return the Carmealites would gift the monastery to a Catholic religious community of nuns. The Carmelites approached the little sisters in 1970 to ascertain
their interest in receiving the gift of the monastery. The little sisters accepted the gift and took possession of the monastery in August 9, 1972. They decided to use the property as a retreat house where little sisters from
all over the United States would come to make their annual retreat. At the time, the Little Sisters had over 500 members in the United States and had no space which could accommodate groups of Little Sisters for retreats. The Little Sisters
began to use the property as a retreat house in 1973 and conducted retreats for 35 to 45 sisters. The location provided both the solitude and the facilities necessary to allow the sisters to pray and reflect on
their vocation and mission in a beautiful setting. In 1980, after renovations and upgrades, the Little Sisters began to bring groups of residents accompanied by Little Sisters to the retreat house for, in quotes, vacations.
They would host approximately eight groups of residents and little sisters a year. The Little Sisters came to take care of the residents. The residents enjoyed the beautiful surroundings and the chance to leave the nursing homes where they were living in for a number
of days each year. The activities continued until the CO outbreak in 2020 where nursing homes as you know got locked down and couldn't really do anything. And since and after CO subsided, the building has been made
available to little sisters for private retreats. But with both the decline of the number of little sisters in the United States, the aging of the sisters, and the cost of maintaining the retreat house, their superiors decided they would need to withdraw from the retreat
house and transfer the property. It was their hope when we when we began the process. I serve as their kind of their broker also. It was their hope that the purchaser would continue to use the property as a retreat house. When the little sisters met the priests of the
Vincent congregation, they believed their prayers were answered. In operating divine mercy centers, the Vincensions provide prayer and retreat experiences for individuals and families. The belisters believe that the property will continue the mission of
the church to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to future generations. Therefore, the little sister little sister's request that the board continue to allow the property to be used as a Catholic retreat center. And I might add I might just add so there's clarity so
that um I began working for the Little Sisters in 1971 and I've obviously done other things as a priest and as an attorney, but I've always been they've always been part of uh my uh my family. In fact, my whole family, my parents, my grandmother all lived in their home in home in New
Jersey. though I've known him very intimately for many many decades. Um and so uh it is personal knowledge. I mean for example when they began to do the retreats here they didn't have a a car question because we would go to Newark
airport and pick up the sisters from all over the country bring them in vans drop them off and then take them back to the airport at the end of the retreat. So >> that was those retreats that you're talking about that was an annual retreat. It says on page one, bottom of page one onto page
two, the little sisters accepted the gift, took possession of the monastery on August 9, 1972. They decided to use the property as a retreat house where little sisters from all over the United States would come to make their annual retreat. Does that mean only one was
held here or different sisters would come once? >> Different sisters. They at that so I don't know I don't know exactly how many they had in those years. a lot because but they didn't use it in winter because it was they wanted the beauty. So they would come from spring until early fall.
>> Do you have any idea of how many of these retreats the little when you brought little sisters in from >> I would say they probably at the beginning had eight to 10 retreats >> each of with four approximately 40 for retreat.
>> Say that again. Eight to 10. >> Eight to 10 retreats. Eight to 10 retreats scheduled. And then and then they had about approximately 40 >> 40 people. >> 40 40 sisters. >> Ah okay. >> Okay. >> Thank you. So >> 8 to 10 retreats.
>> But then you said um >> with approximately 40 sisters per retreat, right? >> In your testimony you mentioned that after renovations in 1980 that the little sisters would bring I
would assume congre or uh residents. Who who were the residents? >> The schedule would have been the SK they would have had retreats for the sisters in the spring and fall >> and they would use the summer months to to bring the residents on vacation. >> Who are residents? >> Who are the residents
of their homes? >> Residents of what homes? >> Their the little sisters homes. >> Okay. So they >> and they would bring them mostly from the northeast. >> Okay. So people that were families that were in >> No, it was it was the residents of the the home that they cared for. >> It was nursing home. little like nursing
>> the nursing home. They were nursing home res. >> So they would bring the nursing home residents out to >> they would bring them and that was about eight groups of res that varied. I think they sometime it was I but I remember in those years it was probably three to
four times in the summer and probably 15 to 20 residents because they had to bring caretakers. So their sisters would come to take care of them. Some were in wheelchairs, some were and and ba basically for the life safety and fire safety because they were nursing home residents, they had to upgrade the home
also to make sure they qualified to to care for them there. They didn't they didn't need the skilled nursing, but they needed the what would be an assisted living level of care. So my last question before I have a comment later is so again I'm on page two then
it says these activities continue until the co outbreak in 2020 since then the building has been made available to little sisters for private retreats. What does that mean? >> So that means that sister sister Mary John or sister albino here tonight
wanted to make a retreat and they wanted to do it themselves. They they'll use spiritual tapes. They'll do whatever. They would come and be here for >> They bring a group with them. >> What? >> No. >> Single person. >> Group or by? >> No. They're by themselves. They're by
Can we get Can we get her sworn and get it from sister? Can you stand up? >> Yes. >> Can you identify yourself for the record, please? >> Yes. I'm Sister Mary John Dequa. >> Okay. Hold on. >> I am a little sister of the >> Okay. >> I have a second, too.
>> What? Whatever. However you want to be referred to in >> Sister Mary John. >> Sister Mary John. >> Okay. Sister Mary John. >> Yes. >> Okay. And can you spell your last name? >> Uh yes. Uh B R U S H E. Secular.
>> B R U S H E. Okay. Okay. You've been sworn. So can you explain what making the building available to little sisters for private retreats is? Yes. Um each of us little sisters, we all have to make an 8-day retreat every year as
part of our spiritual life. So since Flemington is known as a retreat house, we would sign up to come to Flemington by ourselves and have eight days of quiet um silent retreat. There may be two or three other sisters in the building at the same time making their
retreat, but it wasn't a group preached retreat such as Father Joseph does. Then we would bring tapes with us or you know books things. >> So so maybe one of you and some some other sister >> right a sister from >> my wife went to a huge like 75 people
silent retreat >> that's hard to be silent >> right you're not talking but she says they were but you're not talking about that you're talking about you and maybe another sister or maybe >> two or three >> two or three sisters each have a silent retreat for eight days. >> Yes. >> Okay. because it was our property so we
could get and okay guys have any questions they had questions >> I guess the only question I have it sounds like um there wasn't a lot of traffic >> there was a lot of traffic or was >> there there was not
>> it sounds like the retreats that >> father was talking about was >> buses from the airport traveled Right. >> Vans. >> But when you had the private retreats, it sounds like these were uh sisters from outside the area and were probably
in the same situation where they were dropped off. >> Generally, yes. If two if two of us came together from the same home to make our private retreats, we might bring a car. Um, but one thing I could address with that, when Father Mark mentioned about uh the vacations, when we did bring the
residents on vacations, I was here to help out as one of the sisters with the elderly people. And we had a volunteer from this area. His name was Robert, I think his name, new employee, and he would drive the bus to take the residents on day trips. We went out to the Amish country. We went to different
places that aren't too far. And we actually owned, I think it was a 16 passenger bus. he had to have a CDL and it had a handic did not have a handicap lift to it. So those that were handicapped fully could not quite you know participate and the you know for the retreat house it was kind of hard.
>> Thank you. That's not getting ahead of everyone, but my comment was going to be if the norm was 8 to 10 retreats a year with approximately 40 sisters per retreat >> and now the proposal is 30 retreats a
year. That that sounds like assuming that this is a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use. That sounds like it's an expansion of a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use would require a D2 variant.
Could I continue to answer her question though? Continue. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> So, the sisters have from time to time had Jubilee celebrations. They've had big kind of major celebrations and I think we've had up to 150 people in the chapel.
>> Mhm. And aside from the parking that the father was talking about, there is a a swath of land right at the edge of the building inside the wall, but a swath of land that they own that was used. We would we would they would park cars on
it on its just so you know, this board has granted two use variances over the last 10 years to allow parking like that, but that's not permitted by the ordinance. You they would need a use variance to do that. That's not allowed. >> Yeah,
>> that's what they did, but it's not allowed. >> And I hate to say it. I think we had an application where the engineer I five brid five bridges where there's only so much cars allowed in a certain on the grass because of now a New Jersey D.
>> Yeah. The motor vehicle >> motor vehicle regulation where the oil and that situation is definitely changed. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> You guys have more questions. But again, the more I'm hearing It's an intensification of the years. >> It's an intensification of a if it is a
lovely crazy that's the we need somebody right you can trace it back to 1970. Do we have anyone who can trace it back to when the building was built prior to that first zoning ordinance? Is there
anyone available? >> Well, the little sisters wouldn't have even had contact with the compromise at that time. >> Say again. I said the little sisters became engaged with the Carmelites in 1970. Before that, I don't know if the Carmelite community locally has any
sister old enough that would be >> going back to the 60s and we're talking 60 years. >> Yeah. No, I I understand I that's what I said in the beginning. It's a it's a big >> I just want to throw this out here. Um it doesn't have to be
>> substantially similar. So we yeah we had an application where I hate to say it the elderly gentleman that came in was the kid who painted >> correct the the apartment. >> Wow.
>> So we're not So it's not just who in the who in your >> Just so you know we had someone who I will not mention his name try to testify about something when he was alive. He was four years old. I said give me a break. Right. I got four grandchildren.
>> Forget about even remembering, but they lie like a rug. >> So, yeah. >> So, being that this is in Flemington is just asking is there anyone in Flemington not associated with the church but maybe did
>> right maybe someone did some maintenance on the building or something. That's the thought pro you know >> that's what that's what in this other case they found a person who had done painting when he was a teenager and he was the link >> yeah John I just a a clarification
though if it was established as a convent then changed to a retreat center at some time that's the problem that's because that's what >> that's what it says in the documentation
it was established as a comet They have two problems. That's problem number one. And problem number two, they don't have a witness who can say, "For all we know, the convent had retreats, but they don't have a witness to say
that." That's problem number one. Problem number two, assuming for argument sake >> that the board were to make a finding that it was a lawfully created pre-existing retreat center when they took it over in 1972, right? Yeah.
It was it wasn't 30 retreats. It was Yes. >> and 40 cars and and Yeah. >> So that's an intensification which is is not a continuation >> of a pre-existing non-conforming use. An
intensification needs a D2 expansion of pre-existing non-conforming use. >> Right. >> So I think it was very good that we went through all this, but >> we're back. >> However, we're we're back to that dead end. Unless you have like >> I just not a huge thing but when you talk about the intensification and the
use that the little sisters had as gentleman reminded me and it's true as little sisters were very open to the local community and the Knights of Columbus would come and have retreats there. Uh different parishes would bring their their people to the the retreat center to have a day out away from the
parish. So different little things like that did happen. I can't tell you how many I wasn't I wasn't station sleep to Columbus had sleepover retreats. >> If it was from this area that means driving the car coming and going and going a sleepover.
>> Well then let's get you sworn. >> Identify yourself for the record please. >> Craig O'Brien 3 Johnson Drive Township. >> Raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm testimony you're about to give in this matter will be the truth. The whole truth is nothing but the truth. >> I do. >> Okay. First explain what your connection
is and what your personal knowledge of the property is. >> Loudly, please. >> Sure. So, I I have no formal connection to the organization other than I'm a person at St. Magdalins and I'm a member of local Columbus Council. I have been on a number of retreats to the facility. I've been up there many
times over the last 20 years. The driver that she's talking about is Bob Woodra who drive people around. He's a friend of mine again from uh he lives here in Flemington. He's a Knights upon good friend of mine. I have over the last 28 years that lived here. Probably been myself on on the order of 10 to a dozen
retreats over the years at at the facility. Little sisters of poor. >> Is this a sleepover retreat or >> No, these are not sleepover retreats. We're all local. They were daily retreats. >> Okay. >> Mrs. O'Brien prefers to have some oversight of me when she came. >> Is this one day retreat or you come for like three days?
>> They'd be one day retreat. Sometimes they were two-day retreats. Okay. But by and large one day retreat. >> Coming and going. >> Uh come and go. So, uh we would have 40 people there. Uh I know on at least two two occasions when hate to say this when I was grant I think there were 40 people at the retreats and I won't talk to the
parking but you know people the cars did fit. >> Okay. >> I assume there was stacked parking though it >> um >> you know stack parking is right. >> No. >> Okay. Car in front of another car you know uh a foot. There's no spaces. Maybe
>> everybody could get their car out. So it was tight. Yes. And we were along the second half of the entry road. >> Stat parking. Someone's got to move their car to let someone else out. No, >> you could. It was possible to get around that. >> And how many Knights of Columbus' retreats
>> for? And that's how many people how many per year? Just one retreat a year for Knights of Columbus. >> Uh for my council, we would do one retreat a year. We didn't always do it at the Little Sisters, >> but um and there are I think on the order of 300 councils in the state of New Jersey.
>> I I don't know how many go to the Little Sisters. >> Right. Okay. Let's ask this sister. Do you know how many Nights of Columbus retreats were? >> No. Okay. >> We Sister Bernice was there in the time that I'm talking about. >> Okay. I have a question and I'm not sure
who can answer it. Um, so we talked >> Hold on. You called her sister Bernice. >> Sister. >> Oh, okay. I thought he was calling you Sister Bernice. I was like, that's not her name. >> That's why you said that. >> Okay.
>> Okay. Just a clarific clarification of on so you said this was in the last you've been a resident 28 years so that only takes you back to about the late 90s. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Ah okay. >> Okay. >> So we're talking a lot about the parking
and it sounds like every time we talk about the parking this loop road is not used. Is this loop road a road that was supposed to support cars or is this loop
road a walking path for the convent? I >> It's both. I think it's both. It does support trucks um for deliveries. It does support when when people come to do maintenance on the roof or on the building. And I've seen and I've seen 30
30 foot straight trucks on this road. It's wide enough to do that. And the turn is wide enough. It doesn't go all the way around though. It goes It's a U. It's not a It doesn't come a complete road around back out. >> I thought he said that going all the way around. >> It does. >> Oh, that's right. They open it. You're
right. It does go all the way around if you have to open this one gate. So if that's the case, just asking when you had these retreats where you had uh even day and and you're saying parking, why wouldn't the gate have been open to
allow parking to sp is it is it because you thought you had enough space at the front and it wasn't a big deal? Why wasn't the gate open so parking could be spread out? Just a thought. >> So So we didn't have the gate open. You got to remember being Catholic
gentlemen, we wouldn't ask we try not to impose on the sisters. The short answer. >> Mhm. >> Um we had enough room to make it work. >> Okay. >> That's not not to be flippant, but that's that's really what >> Okay. >> I have never I have not seen that gate open. >> Okay. And just curiosity, the the the
facility the way it's sitting now, obviously there is parking. Um is there ADA spaces? Is there handicap spaces? >> Are there designated >> there? There aren't designated spaces, but there are ramps into into so that
and and ramps also for wheelchairs because we have wheelchairs there also. >> Okay, that's all I have. >> I have a quick question about St. Mary Magdalene Incorporated. Would there be anybody um
it seemed this is on one of the deed documents. Um would there be anybody at St. Magdalins that would have some involvement that would know um more about the history too that we should be tapping as a resource.
>> Somebody who would be at least 15 years old in 1959. >> That's right. >> That's hard to believe. >> Yeah. Okay. John, >> so this I don't let this become his testimony. George Mueller, who was a
freeholder and I think he's done a number of jobs over the years, told me one time he was dedicated. >> Not that told me. >> No, but I think he was >> maybe you can contact him and see if >> Yeah. see if he can come in and testify. >> And and on that on that note, John, I
think we had >> if that person can testify. I think we had a person by Zoom. >> I understand. But let's take it one step at a time. If there's a health issue, they'll tell us maybe we can do, >> you know, a Zoom hookup with that
person. Okay. >> Once before also on one of these lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use where the person was like in their >> well she was out of state and she wasn't well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm sorry, Donna. Go ahead.
>> Yeah. John, I guess I'm just wondering given that there's been testimony that there's definitely an intensification Yeah. >> proposed for the use. >> How do we proceed? >> Put it this way. It's up to you. The legal advice is
if you feel that they haven't proved because the applicant has the burden of proof. If you feel they haven't proved that they established first of all a lawfully pre-existing non-conforming use then you say no you you know you make a motion you haven't established the
lawful a lawfully created precisely and non-conforming use and then if you further believe that even if it was it's an intensification then the second part of the motion is assuming for argument sake that it was a lawfully created pre-existing formal use seems based on
the testimony that it's an intensification and therefore or you can't give them the certificate that they want to continue the use. And under either of those scenarios, they're either going to have to apply for a D1 or a D2 variant. They'll have to decide
what they want to do. Okay. >> If it were me, I would go with a D1 because for that D2, you still have to prove you get the lawful created. >> Yeah. you know, and and and if you if you're granted a D1 variance, that gives
you the most rights out of everything, including an interpretation and including a certificate of non-conforming use. So, you have a certificate of non-conforming use and then they want to go sell it to someone else, that buyer is going to have the similar problem. It's going to be worse.
Is it going to be more years down the road? >> Is there a floor plan that we could get a look at? Because There is none. There's no floor plan. There's no survey. There's no site plan of >> And the reason why I'm bringing up the floor plan idea is to me if it was a
convent to start with that there wouldn't necessarily be large meeting rooms um like a retreat center would need. Like if it was if there's a bunch of large meeting rooms where groups of
people can convene together for prayer and for other um activities versus like that kind of um information would shed light on what it was originally maybe shed light on. Is that possible?
>> Listen, they wanted to pro they wanted to proceed tonight 9:22. Okay. I say let them sum up and then based on the evidence, you guys decide what you want to do.
>> Can can I answer your concern about the large meeting spaces? When we renovated for the residents, we have a large room that was used for their dining room and it really would be a very nice large room for any kind of conferences. But we also have the chapel. And the chapel itself has one side leading to where the
public used to be with the sisters, the Carmelites before us, and a second side which was their grill area. And that was used for little sisters retreats. The priests would stand at the top of that chapel area and have pews and enough really for 40 50 people really to to fit
there and hear a conference. So there are retreat conference areas or enough big areas especially because we did renovate. They could also do it more informally in the dining room area that's got tables and chairs. >> Thank you. Just a clarification. When the renovation was done in the 80s, were
permits pulled and >> ask Jeff, were permits pulled? >> No permits on record. >> No permits on record 88 thing. Whatever they >> Well, that that mean that was for a garage. >> That was for a garage. >> That's for the um >> the tanks were removed. That was for the pre-fabricated building
>> to to house the vehicle, >> right? >> But when updates were done, >> technically permits should have been pulled, >> correct? >> And approved. >> So there's a lot of loose ends.
>> So you want to make a summation? >> Go for it. >> Yeah. Um I voted to want to do it. Well, I I think tonight this this this obviously this meeting is uh had raised some important issues that need to be
addressed. Certainly life safety, making sure the fire department, all of that has to be done. The the the challenge for for us is there are things I think we have to do. It's clear I think the buyer's going to have to do a survey to make sure we have and maybe a floor
plan. I am going to check with we had a corporate broker before we started dealing with them and he did a drone one of those things with a drone going through every room in the building. So I want to see that's the way they I guess they do it. So I want to see if he has something that would have created a a
virtual floor plan. But we will if we have to do that a site plan whatever we have to do we'll do. But one of the challenges, frankly, the little sisters of the poor are really poor and so they've been maintaining the building while we've been waiting for this process to go forward. The Vincent
congregation also really works with the poor people. So the longer it takes us to get to a decision, um the longer we're both both parties are going to because they're not able they're doing their retreats in their place. Now, >> I suggest you give them a decision on their application tonight so they then
can expeditiously don't. My recommendation is do not continue this thing because that's just going to drag them out. >> Okay. They presented a case for the interpretation and the certificate of lawfully created pre-existing
non-conforming use. decide that and then the ball's back in their court to if they have to apply for the D1 or D2, they decide and then then they get their stuff together, get that application in ASAP. So, so ju just to wrap it up from the
applicant's perspective, you know, yes, um this application is for um asking us to uh asking the board to continue the prior non-conforming use uh which we believe existed um before the zoning ordinance existed.
>> Based on what um what what facts in the record do you based the belief that >> the building the building pre-existed the zoning? >> Okay. building >> building pre-existence and and um I believe um from the deeds that we've submitted it was a the Carmelite sisters
property is a monastery >> which >> I I think there was testimony with regard to what monasteries do but u >> well how about the Carmelite monastery that was in that building prior in 1956 we don't have any testimony >> we have no personal testimony from from any of the Carmelades but we yeah you we
do have um you in the testimony where we talked about um father Joseph talked about 40 individuals for retreats. That doesn't mean 40 cars. That means 40 people, you know, it could be 20 cars, you know, it it doesn't mean 40
individual cars. Um, and there has been testimony that in the past four retreats, there's been sufficient space for people without problems in the neighborhood. I don't think there's any anything in Mr. of Vakarella's file that shows any any notice of violations for
traffic problems or issuances of um of uh um c you know cease and desist uh from the fire department or the police department with regard to coming in and out of the the property for traffic. Um you know we do have for whatever it's
worth the zoning permit for quote unquote retreat house issued August 31st, 1988. um whatever that meant. >> Listen, >> okay, the retreat house, how many people, again, here's the problem is you
have testimony that when they when the sisters took over in 1972 is they had 8 to 10 retreats a year with approximately 40 sisters. Then you have the testimony that says what the applicant wants to do is have approximately 30 retreats a year with up to 40 people. So, forget the
cars, forget the parking. that the site plan issue which you guys have no matter no matter what they decide. That's the problem in a nutshell. The way I see it is there's no testimony for the board to be able to make a finding that
the use that the new the applicant wants to make is a continuation of a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use. and assuming that they that you could prove it was a lawfully created pre using non-p performing use based on the
testimony it's going to be an intensification of that not a continuation of that and it's not based on cars it's based on the number of retreats so >> but if the board wants to you know listen you bailed me out before I needed
a reason in the other one you gave me you can bail me out here I'd welcome it >> I'm I'm just concerned this is an intensification >> I would agree And I'm and per and I'm I'm giving my justification. Um I I think we need to
uh h hold a finding that this is not a >> lovely creative reason, >> right? Because of the intensification that's proposed. >> That's a separate issue. >> Okay. >> Two issues. Is it >> is a is a retreat center a lawfully created pre pre-existing non-conforming
use? That's issue number one. Issue number two is assuming it is. I'm not saying it was. You might even say it was not, but assuming it it was, is the retreat center they want to start here a
continuation or an intensification? >> Those are the two separate issues. >> I don't think we had te explicit testimony about it being approved as a retreat center. >> I agree. >> We know it was built as a convent,
right? at some point the use changed. It doesn't appear with any approvals or permissions from the township. So that's where I I I just we don't have anything on the record that gives us the ability to make that. >> So your deliberation on issue number one
is they did not prove it was a lawfully create pre-existing non-conforming use because it was built as a convent and it some point became a retreat center and there's no proof that it became a retreat center prior to the ordinance. that doesn't allow retreats. >> Right.
>> So, that's issue number one. Why don't you stuple each other with your deliberations on issue number one, then we'll go to issue number two. >> I agree with um what um you just uh stated and I it feels >> You got to go louder into that
microphone. I agree with um what was just stated and I also feel that another uh factor that makes it um more difficult for us to take a action in favor of you guys tonight is because of the modifications that were made in the
early 1980s um not having pulled any permits. What were those modifications for? there was no opportunity for the community, um the neighborhood or anybody else to
weigh in on on what was going on. So, um that is why I feel that way. I would be in agreement and I'm very concerned about the changes that were made in 1980 and why there were not permits. And I hate
to be negative. Um, but were there not permits because someone realized that the use of that building was different? And um I I'm That's number one. Let's go to
number two. >> Lindsay. >> I'm sorry, Lindsay. >> You got Lindsay. You got Lindsay. >> I'm in agreement with what was just stated. I think there's a lot of concerns just on traffic alone but use and what's been completed and it's hard for us to make a decision if we don't have anything to go off of. So,
>> okay. So issue number two is even though the board just found that the retreat center was not a lawfully created pre-existing non-conforming use assuming for argument sake that it was the next issue is is what is now being
proposed for the retreat center substantially similar or an intensification >> it's absolutely intensifi intensification and um I have extreme concerns. If this was any other property, okay, this would this would be a no
vote. It's a blackbox building. We don't know what's going, you know, we don't know what happened in the building. Um, our traffic engineer is not involved. And we when we go through traffic, it's it's where's the parking, where's the striping, where's the ADA, and where how
are the fire trucks getting through. And there's a fire and there's a a you know a diagram of how big trucks are how the big trucks are and how they're going to get through. And I just don't have enough information. And I just feel that again I'm sorry uh a negative worst
case scenario is if there is a treat going on with 20 cars, 10 cars, 15 cars, and there's a fire. Um I just I just Yeah. Our role is to protect public health and safety. Yeah, I just uh can't
make that leap. >> You guys same different >> same. It's you know the testimony provided saying they went from eight to 10 retreats a year. >> Um and I think the traffic and fire department have to be involved. >> Yeah. To over
>> Lindsay, how about you? >> I agree. I'm in alignment. >> Okay. So then someone should then make a motion to deny the >> I'm sorry, Lorett, did you have anything to add? Um, >> on the second point, >> well, all I would say is we're not I'm not saying that this is not
>> potentially an appropriate use. We just don't have enough information. Um, we it, you know, >> there's still a chance to um, >> without putting words in your mouth, can I say that you believe that if they
apply for a use variance and they come in with a site plan, Yes. that they might very well have very good reasons and a decent chance of getting the release out. >> Yes. Like a real um analysis of speculation.
>> They can't deliberate on an application that hasn't been filed yet. >> Yeah. >> And and John, does this set precedence? If if we if we were to agree to this tonight, then another application comes in a month from now. Technically, the law says it's not presidential, but you
have this equal protection. You can't treat people differently. So, if you said, "Ah, even though you didn't put in the proofs, we're going to call you created." And then you didn't do that with someone else, you could end up getting sued. >> So, I think we're being consistent with
our the way the board's acted in the past. So based on that straw poll and the deliberations, someone should then make a motion to deny the application and direct me to draft up a memorializing resolution. >> I'll make a motion. >> I'll second.
>> Roll call. >> Chairwoman Miss. >> So yes is a deny. >> Correct. >> Yes. >> Chairwoman Miss Cynthia Schaefer. >> Yes. >> Miss Lindsay Cooper. >> Yes. >> Miss Lorett Cina. >> Yes. and Miss Donna.
>> Yes. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> You do not have to wait for this resolution to get that use variance application. And it's up to you, but the safest way to do it is D1 and not D2. >> And with a D1 use variance with site
plan >> with a planning testimony from a licensed planner. >> Yeah. >> And and a licensed engineer. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> I know. Yeah. It's It's a big application. >> You might have one of the better
inherently beneficial use >> arguments ever. >> All right. Before we journal this evening, Taylor, what do we have on for I think the 19th is it? >> Uh the 18th. It is the actual name of the application is really hard to say.
It's DCX Docs Riden. It's pretty much it's the new warehouse going up on 202 right now. It's for a sign variance for their signs on the building. >> Wait a minute. >> It's a warehouse that's going up because the planning board granted approval.
>> You look at him. >> Okay. And for a sign, do you if they had proposed a sign with their application, wouldn't that have been included as is it a use for a sign or a C variance for
a sign? >> Carian and they they chose to just submit a signed plan instead of a >> site plan. >> But you granted them site plan approval, correct? >> Planning board. >> Yeah. >> Why aren't they in for an amended site plan approval to add that sign?
>> They didn't. They they may not have, but that's what I would do. >> Yeah. Why? Why >> did they choose to come here? >> They chose to >> because it was faster board and they chose to to submit it.
Okay. Well, >> I don't know what to tell you. >> Put it this way. What's the planning board's uh backlog? >> It's worse than the board of It's >> It's worse than the board of adjustment now. >> Yeah, it it is, believe it or not. >> Well, that's >> Wow.
>> Interesting. >> And they noticed for >> technically they apply for a C variance without site plan approval. The question, what does the does the ordinance require site plan approval for a commercial property to have a sign? Yes or no? If the answer is yes, it
belongs at the planning board. If the answer is no, if they want to be at the board of adjustment, they could be at the >> board. No. And then the variance application says survey or sign plan. So I can't. >> Okay. >> Can I force them to? >> No, you could. No, you can't force them
to for if they want to come to the board of adjustment for a C sign variance as long as the ordinance doesn't say that they need site plan approval. Some municipalities say if you a sign in a commercial in a commercial zone need
site plan approval. >> Send them all to the planning board. >> Should have made that change. Can we make that change? >> Too late. >> Never too late. You guys are busier than this. >> Okay. All right. So, nothing else. Can I
get a motion to adjurnn? All >> in favor? >> Night, Lindsay. >> Good night. >> Take care, Lindsay. Hope the baby's doing good. >> Oh, yeah. >> The warehouse. >> Bye, Lindsay. to what?
>> Yeah, there's already people