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Oh, I don't see anybody actually be let in. >> Good evening. The Redbank Historic Preservation Commission will hold a regular meeting on Wednesday, April 15, 2026 at 7 p.m.

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at 90 Mama Street, Redbank, New Jersey. Adequate notice of this meeting has been posted at Burough Hall, filed with the Burough Clerk, and provided to the Asbury Park Press and the Two River Times. The commission has maintained a policy cutoff hour of 8:30 p.m. for its

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hearings. Let's uh start with the pledge of allegiance. Please stand. to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice

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for all. >> May we have roll call, please. >> Lou Marini, >> present. >> Marjgerie Cavalier, >> present. >> Liam Collins, >> present. Paul Kagno >> present. >> Carish Smells absent. Anthony Satero absent. Michael White

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>> present. >> Matthew Cummings >> present. >> And Betsy Valera. >> Thank you. >> Uh meeting minutes of the meeting of March 18th uh were included in the materials distributed in the advance of

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the meeting. >> Do I have a motion to approve the minutes? I'll make the motion. >> Thank you, Marie. Do I have a second? >> Thank Michael. Are you taking your >> second? >> Okay. >> Here.

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>> Thank you, Mayor. >> Oh, last meeting. No. >> Oh, okay. >> Sorry. No, not me. >> May I have a second from someone who was at the last meeting? >> Thank you, ma'am. Yeah. All in favor?

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>> I I um since Michelle's here, I have a question about the minutes. Um the other board that I sit on, the library board, >> uh if you have read the minutes, even if you weren't at the meeting, you're allowed to vote on that. Is is that not

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possible under this commission? >> The meeting. >> Okay. >> Say that the point is not to read the minutes is to confirm that those minutes reflect accurately what happened. You are there. >> Okay. >> Well said.

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Uh now turning to uh so notes have been approved. Turning to uh the agenda of reports. First the minor works uh review committee report. >> So the minor works committee reviewed two applications since our last meeting.

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Um 8-10 West French Street. That was for sign and that was on April 14th. And then 21- that was approved on April 14th. And then 21-23 East Front Street, which was approved that was for another

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sign for and approved April 9th. And I just sent another one today that I'm pretty sure is heading towards approval, but because it was the day of the meeting, I didn't count it. Sorry. >> Sounds Thank you. Um, River Center report.

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Anthony is not here. Okay. We'll we can't have that then. Uh historic sites designation and design guidelines. >> Okay. So, uh the update on that is uh the survey has been completed of the

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sites and two copies are now at the library. And if anybody wants to have a hard copy as opposed to just looking online, it's listed under the commission online. Um, I think it's

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$35 on on Amazon. So, as we said, if any of the survey surveyed sites that are in here or on our agenda in the future, you know, that would be a time to take a look at the survey or look at it online.

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Um, the other thing that I just want to I think I mentioned at the last meeting, but in terms of future direction, one of the things that we asked our consultant to do was to list in this survey

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additional parts of town that we should look at to add to the historic designation. Um, and I don't know if you want me to just There's just 10 of them. So, if I

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could just go over that, you know, what what he's saying because in terms of going forward, I think that we should take our cue from this list to to look into some of these areas for future designation. Okay.

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So if you look at the map um that is included in the master plan as well as the survey there are some gaps um in the business district notably on Wallace Street and Mechanic Street now and we and we really don't know historically

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why they were not included. Um, I have pointed out in the past that there are some storefronts on Mechanic Street that are actually used as examples in our design guidelines um that are not included um and could be

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demolished without us having any uh anybody come here and and talk with us about it. So, Wallace and Mechanic Street. Um the next one is the lower Broad Street corridor. So the business

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district basically ends at Reckless Place and there are some historic uh homes that have been transfor transformed into commercial properties um south of Reckless Place. So that's the next one. Um

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Mammoth Street and the Count Basy Theater. Uh again, the Count Basy Theater is designated, but it is not added to the list by ordinance and therefore uh protected

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Peter's Place and the Reckless Estate. So, there is a property that was on our element on Peter's Place, but there are other properties on Peter's Place that are not included. And the same thing with the reckless estate. Uh the one

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remaining important uh structure is the women's club in town which was his home and uh a boarding house at one point for for women professionals including from my research anyway the uh piano teacher

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of Count Basy. So when we talk about our ordinance and what becomes historic again uh it's not just the architecture, it's something that happened in that place um or someone that lived in that place. So

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there's a couple of reasons why reckless is is important and I guess a year or two ago um we attempted to look at Irving Place which was a part of the Reckless estate and is named for someone in the Reckless family. Um so that's the

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next one. Um in that same neighborhood we have Leroy Waverly Irving Arthur Places neighborhoods um that reflects suburban growth in in Redbank. The the sixth one is the Maple Avenue

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corridor and then uh the seventh is Recctor Place and the Sigman Eer complex. So, we're familiar with the Galleria being the factory, but there are other businesses associated with Eisner. His one of his

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headquarters is one of the historic buildings on Broad Street, but but there are other places uh that were notable for the beginning of his textile business. Uh Shrewsbury Avenue and Dr. James

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Parker Boulevard quarter corridor on the west side, the River Road neighborhood and East Front Street. So has a couple of properties but not all the properties are listed or designated. So going

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forward um I think there should be a discussion with the commission as where we should focus our efforts and and this list gives us a starting point. So that's that's all I have for my

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report. Thank you. Turning to um old business, we'll start with uh 40 42. >> What about the Are we going to move uh point of order the certified local government?

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>> Oh, I'm sorry. My fault. Uh yes. Uh next item on the agenda, the certified local government designation report. So that would be you. >> Okay. So, uh, Matthew and Betsy and I um

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met and then uh Matthew and I met with Michelle and Shauna um to discuss the the broad idea of uh the certified local government application.

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So it it's very complicated in some ways because uh it it involves a lot of um preparation and um basically it comes down to

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uh several things but one of one of the first steps is putting together the inventory that already exists. the lowhanging fruit as we call it, which are buildings and properties that have

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already been designated either at the national or um state level >> or county also, right? >> Um well, county as well. So there there are several different lists that have been compiled over the

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years. And so, um, I guess the one of the big questions is, um, are the the buildings that are in the historic districts,

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um, but are not protected by ordinance um, going to be acceptable to the state historic preservation office, which is the one that approves the certified local government um, application. So if they won't accept that that that

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means there's a cost involved in order to um make sure that the you know the standards are met in order to compile these surveys in a in a way that it can then be um ordained by the the

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council as as designated. So that's that's one of the big questions in the whole application process is compiling all of these lists, then sifting through figuring out what is uh protected by

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ordinance already, what isn't, and then um answering the question of whether or not the state historic preservation office would accept our application even if we don't have some of those

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properties protected by ordinance. Um, so if we can get over those hurdles, that will be a major step in in our application process. But it it's going to take a lot of leg work. And so that's

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the that's one of the other questions is how do we physically do this? You know, do we, you know, um, get volunteers? to be I mean part of the that question will be answered if we if we get the grant that

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that Sean was working on I think will that cover some of the surveys Shauna >> that will cover 60 um properties a survey of 60 properties >> 60 okay and so just a rough estimate of

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of the surveys that have already been conducted We estimate there's about a 100, but there's also a rumor that there might be up to 200. So, it depends on which list we're looking at and what which

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buildings still exist. Um, you know, some of these surveys may have been done u a long time ago and the buildings unfortunately are not here anymore. Um, >> but can I ask um Liam,

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is it also your understanding that we don't necessarily have to have a comprehensive list? We just have to demonstrate that a substantial number of properties are historic and and surveyed to go

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forward. In other words, if there are 200 properties, we don't necessarily have to document all 200. We just have to demonstrate that we have a sizable number in Redbank. >> Uh I don't know, but it's a good

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question >> in the in the >> I I don't know. But it's a good question and we'll we'll find out if it's a certain percentage or if it has to be every single one. I don't know if anyone else knows that answer, but

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>> well, I am on the panel in in June um at the conference in Marstown and I think Matthew said that he he was going to go to that. So, uh Matthew will be there. Anybody else besides Matthew and I, Shauna, that you've submitted our fe

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for? Okay. So, um, we could button hole the people at the state level and ask them some of these questions. So, especially since Matthew, you were a part of drawing up these

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questions for Michelle from that subcommittee. Um, maybe you could make that your your mission to kind of get friendly with these folks and and, you know, maybe even kind of get some

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guidance and and get a a person to be our champion, you know. So, so if you're if if you're going to do that, that would be great. I'm I'm willing to uh do my best, but I'll need a lot of preparation be with some

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of the other members here to I need more of the the backstory of the information that we have in place and things of that sort. Yeah, I mean I I would say the one thing that you could do is you know make sure you're familiar with the surveys

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that we already >> have completed through our consultant and um also I think uh we have on haven't we circulated the application and you've gone through the application

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right Matthew and Betsy you were part of this question coming up with the questions meeting >> I yeah So, so I mean that's that's a start. I mean we're not going in there as an expert. We're going in there kind of saying please help us and give us

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some guidance and you know that kind of thing. So >> yeah. >> Okay. >> So >> we'll have to have some other side conversations and for that. >> For sure. For sure. >> Yeah. So so the Yeah. the the main thing

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that we have to work on is the the surveys that exist and um compiling the the list into a master list and then um making sure that the surveys meet the

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standards of the state historic preservation office. >> So Michelle's going to answer some questions that >> I'm not sure what the question is. What is the question? >> Well, I mean, I've just gotten this, you

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know, that your correspondence, >> right? I haven't done a tremendous amount on it. It was asked about I was asked about CLG and I basically kind of in some respects I dissuaded

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or attempted to dissuade the use of your energies to CLG, but instead focus on some other things that I think that the state is likely to look at and that would then get you, you

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know, far ahead of the process. So I recommended that other actions be taken like firming up what has been surveyed, what's on the national and state registers that is not protected by ordinance, all that kind of little

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housekeeping. I kind of like I'm kind of calling it lowhanging fruit, but it's really important things to do. And uh so that's was my recommendation if you start get it. It is unfortunate and my letter

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basically says the state has not made CLG certification easy. It it and and and they have a lot of grounds in between that they look at. I would really like to see you really do a lot of things locally first. Really

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strengthen where you are and what you're doing. Improve get finish up with the survey, follow up with the recommendations that uh Steve Smolen put in about expanding your designations and you know building you know and and then

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you know go to CLG. I mean it's and you need to get money from the council for CLG. This is, you know, they sometimes the and I think that Miss Tingley, I think her name is Tingi or Tingley that she

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does this and she like she starts like you know analyzing grammar and looking at commas and periods and it's like time consuming and not necessarily productive of a good result. So I'm I just I I I you need money to do it. You

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need to get money from council. I'm not sure that you have it in your existing budget. You have some money in your existing budget and you have a lot of important tasks that you can undertake short of going there. So all that like you said the pre preparation work on

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that preparation really build your foundation. >> Michelle, one thing I was unclear of after our conversation um was what are the specific costs associated with the application of which you're referring to right now? What are those? Yeah,

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>> expenditures. >> So the the the the state has those COG the state has CLG guidelines which I had distributed in a prior letter and there's a lot of very technical items that that you would put into a CLG ordinance that are not dictated by the

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municipal land use law. So you know we have an ordinance that complies with the land use law goes beyond the land use law. I think you have a good strong ordinance but there are a lot of technical items um you have to arrange for like uh training the MLU doesn't

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require training there are a whole series of different requirements in the COG standards those are there laid out the CG standards are dictated by federal by the national register law not by state but the state now puts another gloss on top

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of them and depending upon who it is that's looking at it Um, you know, sometimes they just want something drafted differently. It's not substantively different. It just has different requirements to it. So, you

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know, I just I I I don't I don't make your budget up and I I I just know that it can be very time consuming and I've seen it be very time consuming. So the takeaway is we probably couldn't do it

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this year, but we could start on it this year and aim for the deadline in 2027. >> Be great. Well, it seems like the first steps it will be to uh compile the master list to um make

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sure all the the national, state, and county surveys um adhere to the state historic preservation office standards and then present that to council to declare

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ordinance to protect those properties. that will that's something that will dovetail then into the CLG application as something that's necessary anyway. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, it sounds like there's a lot

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of work we can do before actually completing and submitting an application and we should focus on that work >> and come in looking like a start having completed that. So, um, Shauna, you said that you were working on the annual

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report to submit to council. Um, part of that is, uh, goals for 2026. So, uh, I think that we should let them know that

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we're starting on this process. And I wonder, is there any way we can um, we can, you know, draft people into helping us because it's it's a lot of work just all the research, compiling everything.

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I'm not sure if history class at Redbank Regional or um you know maybe Karen with uh >> Mammoth University. >> Mammoth University. What? >> Um well and I had I had coffee with Karen recently and she said that she's

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been approached by some people in in in the neighborhoods who are interested in maybe even advocating for their neighborhood to get protection. So maybe there are some people >> who is that you >> Karen.

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>> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Who's not here? I was hoping she was here be and would share that. But what I'm saying is that we could put out that we would look for people to assist. And Michelle, that would mean that we could have three commissioners on that

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committee, but we could have other volunteers helping without breaking any rules. It's >> not three. uh you take the conservative rule which is what I there's a Supreme Court New Jersey Supreme Court decision which

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indicates that that rule it it's it says effective majority effective majority not a quorum effective majority so you have four as an effective majority

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so if you had four people voting as a quorum An effective majority of four is three and you can't have an effective majority under the open public meetings act without notice. Now there is an alternative and that is that simply you

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put out notice but you'd have to go down to two in order not to offend the conservative rule which I go by what the Supreme Court says kind of >> um >> okay followup question

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>> effective majority that's the statuto word >> but all right uh let's as an example use the minor works committee >> yes >> that is a group of three of us Yes, >> I think that she's putting it out. Don't you have notice on your website that you

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have an effect a minor works committee meeting? >> No, >> we don't like it's as the applications come in. >> It has been our understanding that >> as needed. Okay. Well, it it really you really have to notice

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an effective majority >> members are there needs three um allows for three. No. >> How many members of the commission? >> I thought seven. >> Seven. >> Seven.

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>> Right. So, three is less. >> No, no, you're not. No, >> you have eight with >> Oh, nine with Anthony. >> No, it's two alternates. >> Oh, >> can't count. >> You're you you you have a seven member

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agency. An a majority is four. >> And that is what would be your quarrel is four. >> Right? >> The open public meetings act uses the term effective majority. Effective means

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it's the majority that could vote in an approval. So if someone came to you, you have four members, you need three votes to pass it. That's the effective majority. That's what the Supreme Court states in the reaffinate. Okay, I'm I'm just going to quote from the ordinance

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on page 8 of the 22. The members of the commission appointed by the chair at the annual organization meeting make up the minor works committee. So it shall consist of the chair and two other members and shall be responsible for

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approving minor applications. >> Right? >> So the three are Lou and two others. >> Right? That doesn't matter what Lou and two others are. it you have three members. They are they they are the that

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committee if this that that just creates them. There's another body of law called the Open Public Meetings Act. Open Public Meetings Act states that if you have an effective majority,

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you have to provide notice. So, do they ever if you just have like do they meet on Mondays when needed? >> As needed. >> Yeah. But any you don't have a date in particular, >> I'm going to recommend to you that you just set up one or two days that might

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be the days that you would likely meet and put out an annual notice and it and you hold the meetings when you hold them, but you just have the coverage for it. Otherwise, you only have two people at them, >> which it makes it difficult to accomplish anything. I I don't disagree,

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but the answer is simply if you want to do it without ever having somebody challenge you. And what is the effect of challenge under the open public meetings act is your action can be invalidated and you could be fined.

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Okay. So I I'm very conservative about how I approach that and I just follow what I think is the I I and I you know look when the Supreme Court says why did the legislature use the term effective majority I listen to that and that's all I'm saying. It's not a de to me it's not

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debatable. If you don't want to follow it you don't have to. But the simple answer is the beginning of the year. You say, "Let's do these meetings on a Monday or a Tuesday uh uh the second week of the month or whatever." And you do them you and you

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just said they're going to be one of those two meetings. And you put out a notice and that's it for those meetings. If you hold the meetings, you hold them. If you don't, you don't. You've covered yourself with the open public meetings act. And Michelle, just to clarify, UPMA, that's

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across any any body. That would be the same with the governing. >> Yes. The public meetings act applies to everything. >> So, and it's the same >> and it's not an uncommon um the the the debate went on for many many years. They've been there were uh scholarly articles written about this where there

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was debate debate among council what does it mean effective majority? And a lot of people said, "Oh, that means a quirreum." Supreme Court in a published decision said if the legislature meant quorum, they would have said quorum. They didn't say quarum. They said effective majority.

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So I'm conservative. I I wouldn't ever want to have any an agency that I represent hold a meeting and then get in trouble and then why didn't you tell us we couldn't do this? But I mean irrespective of that, it

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sounds like aspiration towards CLG can be a good forcing function for this other amount of work and kind of clean up that we want to do anyway. Right. >> Right. Yeah. Especially like you said

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the probably the top ones would be the national historic ones. >> Yep. >> Prioritize. Yeah. >> Yeah. And those go from there >> to me the highest and they overlap with what Mr. smaller also recommended. I think he has slightly bigger I think

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maybe some of what he has identified might not be on the national and state register some of his recommendations. So you have a bunch of them that are national and state register not they're designated by resolution and and I think you may have some other national and

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state go it's simple you just go to the national state register list look to see whether they fall within either of the two districts if they don't nice simple little recommendation I think that they're probably already in the historic preservation element of master plan now

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you've accomplished something very important because you've taken them and put them within your jurisdiction as well because National State Register doesn't put them in your jurisdiction. >> Okay. I I I'm just I'm just thinking about the the amount of work required

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here. So if in fact we want these three people who have stepped up, they want to pursue this and we want it to continue with three people and maybe open it up to other volunteers in the community who are interested in history in Redbank. We

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just have to establish a time when they are meeting and someplace where they are meeting that would allow the public to attend and then they could still have three people on the committee. >> Exactly. >> Or or more if you notice, but Right. >> Okay.

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>> That's right. You go beyond. >> So So going forward, it seems to me that I I think the public library would be open to using one of their rooms upstairs. I'm just saying since I'm on the board

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there, but but I know that downstairs is where the children's library is and there's a lot of activity happen down there, but they do have a a space on the second floor. So that maybe the three of you could decide a monthly meeting and then you could

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always cancel it and then make that open to the public listed on our HPC information. Perfect. That's >> Yeah. I mean, the only issue was that we reason we did it was to make it more efficient.

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>> Well, government and bureaucracy don't necessarily fall into that same category. >> Same. That's true. What What about if there were only two CLG members from the HPC? Could they then organize the group of volunteers? >> Yes. >> Okay. And it wouldn't have to be public

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then. >> That's correct. >> Okay. >> Okay. What if each of these groups go to the minor works review committee again? >> Now we're switching from CO. All right.

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But but it's the same principle. I'm just >> logistics and doing things as make the Supreme Court happy. What if that continued as group of three but and notice could go out to the three

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but only you do a lot of stuff by email. All right we will get >> well an electronic meeting is a meeting too. That's the other problem. But so the three being on an email is >> that if if if you are discussing public

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business and you have three people in an email, there are court cases that say that that's a meeting. Actually, the open public meetings act actually refers to electronic. >> All right. We will we will >> Thank you. We will come up with solutions

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>> reluctantly. Yeah. Okay. >> Okay. Okay. Anything else that certified local government? >> Okay. >> Um, >> okay. >> Were there things that Michelle wanted to cover?

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>> Here's what I would like to do because these people have been patiently waiting. So, what I'd like to do is move to 4042 Broad Street and we'll go through that topic and then to the extent there's any follow on discussion

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on uh CLG, we could go back to >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Thank you very much. >> Mike, you're gonna have to use your Sorry, the microw. >> Thank you very much. Uh, my name is Michael Monroe, architect for this

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project. Um, do you swearing in or no swearing in? >> Yes. Would you raise your right hand? Do you swear affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> I do. >> Thank you. >> So, this project, uh, we're here before you tonight to get permission to paint a

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building which has already been painted. Um, and, uh, I'm going to give you a little history of the background of the project. Um, I was involved in this project early on. it was putting a fourth unit by rights in the building and doing some repairs. Um, actually I

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met with this committee when it was still informal over in English Plaza maybe two and a half years ago. I don't think anyone here was there, I don't believe. Um, because I was excited about the project um restoring it. It had casement windows in it and it just didn't match anything in Redbank. It was

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kind of exciting to me as an architect. Um, so, uh, because I found the picture in in the in the Red Bank book of the Red Bank Register building, the members at that time weren't really that thrilled about didn't care about the windows, but they said, "Can you add a sign to the building?" I said, "Well, no. You know, there's windows there now.

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There used to be a sign on the on the front and a sign on on the uh on the side of the building." The Starbucks building is a current building next to it. At one point, it was a two-story. They went down to a one-story. That's back and forth. I have a couple of things, exhibits. Um, so we we did all

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the renovation work and then uh a lot of the window work was uh because they were trying to put a uh uh the last window replacement that was done probably 30 years ago was a was a terrible job. It was a huge caul joint. It leaked terribly. I was worried about losing the structural integrity of the whole front

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of the building. So we put a lot of steel on the inside. We do a lot of masonry lentil repairs. They're all they were all rotted out. It was it was crazy. it it pancaked up and um but I thought it would be fun to restore it, but we had done so much work on the outside and then when it came to painting it, no one ever asked me and it

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just happened. So, I'm here to clean up that mess. It wasn't intentionally left. Um I have a couple different pictures. I have I have six copies. I don't quite have enough, but um I can pass these out. So just as Mike is passing that

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out, I'll just give a little background to the board because I think you kind of just jumped right into it. Um so this started off why we have you here is because um several board members, commission members saw that uh there was

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work being done um to the property and we realized that a formal application wasn't form um wasn't submitted to this board. Um and so violation code enforcement violations were sent out

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and um now you are here before the board at the request of the board even though the work is already completed and done. Um but at the request of this board, they've asked you to to kind of come as and represent the applicant to explain

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um what happened and how can you guys uh finish the work pretty much without getting um approval and um to understand all the work that was done because I think uh we see the paint but we don't

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know exactly what other exterior improve movements were done. >> Okay. Yeah, that's that's all correct. And uh yeah, I put copies of the uh notices and the violations in the packet that I submitted to you. Um so yeah, I can answer any questions about

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how the project went along. I said it was mostly interior. We had some structural damage. Uh they the owner wanted there was some deferred maintenance in the building. Tremendous amount of deferred maintenance. Um so everything was replaced. uh HBAC uh hadn't been replaced in a long time.

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Um electrical upgrades mostly the second floor. There is a um three units on the third floor of the building which were existing and uh we wanted to add the second floor was all uh business use. We wanted to add our

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fourth apartment. You usually can get four apartments uh in any size building. We want to make the back half of that an apartment. we applied for a zoning uh permit and got it. Um and then this the front remained in office. Um so

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through the work of uh construction, like I said, we had some damage to the exterior. Um and uh they pretty much left the first floor the the glass that was there. There's some nice elements. There's a was a glass front. There's some original cast

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iron columns on the front which I told them don't touch. Don't cover up. Don't put plastic around it. They did a pretty good job leaving that alone. Um, but this this building has some issues. It never uh you can see I I have some pictures that are handed out. The first one is the street view of the way it

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looks today looking down one direction of the street. I label that E1. E2 is uh a picture looking down the other direction of the street so you can see the context of the colors and the and the window shapes. E3 is just a a

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closer version showing a Starbucks next to it. And and uh E4 is the back of the building. There was a lot of different color bricks. This is the the present color next to the brick. I we we kept some of the brick like we do on all of our buildings in Red Bank and restore

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them, clean them, point them, and and leave them as interior finishes. The back of this brick is much darker. It's misfired. Um it's it's awful brown. So, we have some different types of brick. Um, the building's not a a great example. You see when you look at those

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pictures, um, a lot of these buildings have a base with some sort of freeze and they have a middle piece and then they have a cornice up top. And you can see how nicely articulated they are on the adjacent buildings. This building doesn't have any of that. Um, they haven't applied for a sign permit, but

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when they do, I would hope that we would actually add some extra trim along that cornice line. I mean, not the corners, the freeze line right above the the glass commercial windows on the first floor. Um, and then I have uh three

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other I don't have copies of these, but I have three other pictures. There's a heritage red benchmark color that they picked. There's the original picture. That's a E5. This is E6. I'll pass these around. This was uh the existing condition uh and the the building next

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to it to the right, thank goodness, had been painted. It was like an awful orangey type of brick color. And then this is a more close-up picture. E7, the way it looks today. And E8 is a copy out of the book, uh, Redbank Volume 2. I can

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pass the book around to if you want, where we got the inspiration for restoring the windows. So, um, it took a long time, but I got the windows actually to be made to the exact what I thought the exact specifications and the intent of the original and the original

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building. It's really It's really uh whoever designed this originally left out, like I said, unarticulated the uh the top of the building. There's no fancy molding. So, the way it was painted was even worse. It was painted like a white uh a yellowish stripe going up. So, there's

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nothing holding the top of the building together. Um also on the curve windows, the spring line is too low. It's impossible to put any window into it. So we took us about four or five months working with a a custom window manufacturer and we got them to be operable and all look like um all look

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like double hung window which in in the 40 years I've been working in Redbank on the buildings were mostly two over two windows um and uh and the windows are fabulous from the inside. It's a nice it's a nice feeling. So I tried to match what was in the book on that page that I passed around and you're welcome of the

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book if you want. >> Excuse me. But what was the reason to close down? Did you close down two of the windows? You you made two of the windows smaller on the uh above the Starbucks. >> I don't think we changed anything any of the window openings at all.

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Um we we stayed pretty close. >> I look at this picture. Um >> I don't know what exhibit you had marked at. >> Uh exhibit E6. >> Are you talking about this this the single window that is halfway along the

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side? No, the two to the right of it on E6. >> Okay. >> And then when you look at it compared to >> something I saw marked was E6 marked with six pages. >> I was just going to ask was anything marked because I don't know how

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>> you had were you here before this evening? Were you here at another meeting? >> Not not in front of this commission. >> It's hard to tell. I don't know if if the opening of the window Oh, when you said >> I'm asking is this these two these two

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windows here? >> Yeah. Right. >> They seem to be uh side by sides and then when I look at the finished product, it seems to be a single pane above. Is that not the case? >> Uh um

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>> you can approach up here, would you? Please. Uh, so we really >> we really don't have any that you you keep referring to the different exhibit numbers that were marked. >> So I'm not so sure that anybody here has

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them in that manner. >> So >> and was that submitted in writing to the secretary or something? So, just so that what you're looking at and what they're looking at, we all know

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we have the same same page. So, >> I passed out uh six copies of four pictures, packets. They're labeled E1 through E4. >> Oh, they But they weren't labeled. >> No, I I wrote in the back E1 through E8. >> I have my I guess they were on the back

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of the >> They were on the back of yours, but they're in the same order. mine are unmarked. >> Yeah, they're not marked in the back. I think that's the confusion. >> So, um that's part of the confusion. Am I correct? We don't we don't know.

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>> These are these are the ones that are marked. >> I think there were four pages marked as an exhibit, but >> those quite well. >> Okay. >> Basically, I'm referring to these two photographs. >> The one that shows the Starbucks then two have the star. >> So, my question >> I'm the older Oh, do they look the same size? That's what that's what I was

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asking. There appears to be differentiz windows. >> Oh, >> when you look at that and when you look at this. >> Uh I I see what you're saying. >> Right. So if you want to approach I can point it out to you. >> In other words, now it's clearly >> opening the same but the panes are different. Is that what

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>> it's open, >> but it used to be some other style. >> The I have the existing picture, a copy of it here. It was a double casement with a transom window above it. So they're not exactly the same size. They're slightly different. They were done at different times, I think. Um, so

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I just fit the existing opening. I don't think they're exactly the same. I think one's a little shorter. Um, so I tried to make them look like they were similar. >> But there in that existing picture, there's a a double casement with a transit window over it on the bottom and one on the top on the side of the

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building. >> Right. >> Yeah. 200 >> 19. >> Right. So then I made it one big double hung window to match everything else. >> Yeah. So I mean >> that's actually works better. >> Yeah. >> You like things better.

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>> Yeah. I mean I guess the point is that at this point >> there's nothing we can do about it. >> You know I I guess the question is why why didn't you come >> to us prior to to get some to get the input and what can we do going forward to get the input that you know we could have had.

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>> Um Right. I mean >> yeah know I was happy. I was excited about it. I mean the owner started painting it before I got done it then it was already done. So it just happened. No one asked me my opinion of it or what should happen. So, I didn't have control of all that process. But obviously, I mentioned it, you know, two and a half

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years ago. I was excited about talking about the building. I thought it was a nice addition for Redbank. Um, so, um, I wasn't like trying not to get approval for it. So, so can I ask an architect in this area, do you ever have like

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conferences, you know, like talks about, you know, restoring historic buildings that, you know, we could go and talk to the body about our interest in actually

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giving our ideas before you actually start the work or, you know, I mean, we're we're willing to open up and you don't have to necessarily even come with a completed application, right? >> That you could come and have a dialogue and and we could give you some input. I

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mean, that's that's the way I'd like us to operate as opposed to somebody paying all this money to an architect to to design something and then it goes up and really we we would have a problem with it, you know. >> No, I agree. I mean, I I've probably

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done uh five or six buildings on in this couple of blocks and my office was on that street for for 30 years. Um, we did 2 A10 Broad Street with Urban Outfitters. We restored all that. We stripped up the paint. We repointed it. We rebuilt all the moldings, all the trims that still looks really nice today. >> Yeah.

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>> So, I you know, I probably have eight or 10 within those couple of blocks and I'm always excited to talk about it. So, I would and all those this is just this started off as an interior job that morphed into an exterior job. That was the disconnect. if someone, you know, and I mentioned the windows, like I said, two and a half years ago, and no

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one really cared about the windows, but I cared. I knew there's there's no other windows in the historic district that looked like that. That kind of fell on on uh on deaf ears, but it was informal. I brought I I was going over three projects that night in English with a group of three people that were there.

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Um and uh that's the way it used to be. And uh so like I said, the one comment was uh if you can get the name back on the building, there was no way we could really do it. So apparently when I got word that they were painting the building which I didn't know about and they said hey this red bank register is

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in the brick. I said should you paint? I said well yeah you probably I don't think anyone's going to have a problem with putting the name but if it's in the brick of the building it was intended to be shown. It was hard to tell from the original pictures but I thought that was a no-brainer. But at that point they had already painted the building. They were working their way up. >> Yeah.

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>> So I was like a crap you know. Um and uh but I you know the generally it was he he should have told you know he should at least told me he was painting it. I could would have advised him to come before the board. Um and what I was doing with the windows I mentioned

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before. So it would should have been handled differently. 100% agree. But but going back to my question, I'm just asking is is there any kind of forum or you know group that gets together every now and then that maybe deals a lot with

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Redbank or other historic towns like the other two uh towns that have this certified local government designation that we were talking about at length are are Middletown and Treehold. So, I'm

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just thinking that if there was ever some kind of group that got together to kind of put it out to the architects or real estate agents actually that that were here and were willing to help and give you feedback if there's a project that you're starting on.

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>> You know, I'm going before Middletown Historic first up in Mammoth Hills um in a couple of weeks and uh I've gone through all the boards for that. I had to go through a local first and then I'm at I'm at the last step with that one and I've done a lot of work down in Ocean Grove where they have a very

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comprehensive ordinance and um you know you have to match what was there originally and I said well what if the original architect was no good and can I make it better and I actually won that argument and actually was able to make it look like it should have looked when it 1910 when it was done. >> So I I do respect the the process. The

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architects generally are kind of a a lone group of people. They don't really I mean the state try to do this. They try to document um about 10 years ago they try to document all the buildings in the state just like what you're doing all the pieces of important architecture and that that that was done you know but they had trouble getting it going. I

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don't know where it ended up um but from a state level but um but I'd be happy to advise on something like that. If someone asked me would you would you be in a group to advise on I'd be happy to do it and I think it's important because we all live here we all work here and we see things we don't like sometimes and

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wish we could change them. So, um, but the show I'm not that >> Okay. Yeah. It's just that I think that we're all aware of Netflix and having a town that's camera ready and we're starting to see that happening already.

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So, it's another incentive to bring money into our area and uh we don't want to lose we don't want to lose gems that we have. No, >> I agree. I agree. Um,

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>> that's it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Any other questions or comments? >> Appreciate you coming. >> Thank you. Nor, normally we would uh have a vote to see if we approve the uh >> Okay.

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>> But no, but I it's it's different this time. >> Yeah, it's a little different. >> Yeah. But these these four copies um are the ones that are marked one through four and somewhere up there is the uh is the ones marked five through eight. So >> Okay. >> Okay. Appreciate it. And if you pass the

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word that we're here, >> I will certainly certainly pass the word. This is all new to me. Like I said, this used to be >> voice network. They just meet on the sides right now. >> Well, >> I think it's a good it's a good thing. >> We have standard meetings every month. >> Okay. All right. I appreciate it. Thank you.

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>> Thank you. Thank you for the the the loving rehabilitation it sounds like of the the brick work etc. I think uh it's it's greatly appreciated downtown. >> Did you want your book back?

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>> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> No. No. No. We most of us most of us have a >> I'll steal it. So >> yeah most of us have >> I have all the volumes at home. >> Okay. Did you?

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>> Um, okay. Should we? So, that concludes 4042 Broad Street. Um, why don't we go through the rest of the agenda, then we can go back to the CLG. >> What are we? Someone's waiting here.

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Well, okay. Yeah. Did you Did you have any >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's >> working. >> So, could I just ask are these on agenda item comments or non-aggenda items? >> You can comment at the end or whatever. >> Well, we're just concerned about your time. So,

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>> Oh, no. I'm just >> Nothing going on tonight. I'm hanging out. I just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Derek Fischer, 139 Bridge. Um, live in Redbank, but I'm actually a commission member of the Point Beach Historic Preservation Commission. >> Okay. Um, so we're just, you know, always down to make a new connection and

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share some resources, share experiences like like this. Um, I've worked with uh historical architectural firms before on my own personal work. Our chairperson does all of our architectural work in town. Um, and we vote on everything. So,

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this is pretty interesting. I didn't know about that. Um, I met Anthony at a handful of um, historic uh, conferences. I do digital preservation, done work with the T. Thomas Fortune Cultural Center doing 3D models, virtual drivers. Oh, yeah.

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>> Committee. >> Oh, I'm talking to Holly right now. Working on something for Dale. Yeah. So, just introducing myself. Good to meet you all. And >> so, um I don't know. Are you aware that we just produced these two things? >> No, I just learned about it tonight. >> Yeah. So, you can get them on Amazon.

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>> Yeah. Check it out. Thank you. Yeah. But nice meeting everybody. >> Yeah. Great. >> You just had a good victory with the Coast Guard building. >> Yeah. Yep. Yeah. a little bit with >> Yeah, I put some videos up out there. Got some uh >> very successful. >> Yeah. And then we just started our nonprofit. We just got our tax exempt

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status and uh you are moving our museum into the Coast Guard station and we were able to lease it from the town because they Yeah, there's the whole thing. I'm sure you're aware of. But yeah, so good win. >> Nice to meet you. >> Good to meet you.

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>> Are you going to the conference in June? >> Okay, I'll be there and Matthew will be there. >> Very good. >> Okay. >> Oh, great. >> Okay. >> All right. Thank you. Let's move to the mushroom house. >> Mushroom house.

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>> Report on the mushroom house. Is it >> Well, we we went and uh met with Roger Mumford. So, uh Shauna and Paul and myself and Matthew.

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Um, and he he took us on a tour through the house. Um, so the well I don't I don't know how much of the information is public. Shauna, are we allowed to talk about what we discussed with him or

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>> talk about um Yeah, talk about everything. >> Okay. So, basically he he has purchased um a a parcel of land that consists of several different properties. I think it amounts about six or seven acres. Um,

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which is right across from Food Town. Um, the Mushroom House is on the corner there and it's kind of a iconic house. I mean, it uh it's got beautiful shrub shrubbery and kind of unique architecture. Um, but there's also the

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Atlantic Club. um the Carpenters Hall which is on Maple Avenue and and Wyoff uh place. Um and then the building next to the Mushroom House on Broad Street which is a big I don't know what period

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that would be from Victorian or >> what which which building you talking about? Across the street the the apartment building next. No, no, no. The the building right next to uh the building uh right next to the Mushroom House on Broad Street. Oh, >> just down from the funeral parlor.

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>> Right next to the perfect style dental office and it's got been like boarded up for a long time. It looks like some beautiful turrets and >> Oh, it's not occupied at this. >> It doesn't I don't know. Is it occupied? >> I Yeah, I think it's been vacant for a while. >> It's in disrepair.

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>> Yeah, it's just storage area. Um, so anyway, we we um it was more or less a courtesy call on his part because again, this is a I think an ongoing issue in Redbank where a developer buys

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several adjacent properties, they sit on them for several years and then, you know, at some point they say, "Oh, we want to build whatever." And um it it seems to be the case here as well. Um, >> yes.

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>> He he uh he's the the person that did the Aelia uh the Aelia. Um >> yeah, on Hudson Avenue there. Um >> to truthberry. >> No, >> Gordens. >> Aelia Gardens. Yeah.

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>> Across from the middle school. There's town houses. >> Patty Carter for Middle School. >> Yeah. Still in Mumford. >> Roger. >> Formerly Mford. >> Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, but that was years ago. He's been on his own for a while. >> Yeah. And he did the uh the fortune

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house also and the development behind the fortune house. So, um we were trying to persuade him to maybe integrate or reuse the mushroom house somehow. And it it doesn't seem like that will be

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financially feasible for him. Um he was sympathetic, but again he's a businessman. So, um it looks like uh what they're going to do is they'll uh uh I guess petition the council to uh

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take over Whiteoff Place or Wakeoff Road, that small street in between Food Town and the Mushroom House and then develop um that whole six to seven parcel uh land uh a six to seven acre

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parcel land uh into 64 units. Um, >> he did say he was going to try to incorporate some of the materials. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He did say he was look, you know, he was going to have his team look into some of the materials, the um peanut stone and

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some other things on the architectural kind of columns that were out front and maybe try to incorporate that in different as different areas of the project. Uh, he did also was thankful that he got our guidelines. Sean had given him a copy of our guidelines and he was going to take that into consideration when building these new

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units to make um even though it's not in the historic district, he will strive to use he will strive to use the proper materials that >> um you know the character of Red Bank in my opinion is known for. So I was happy

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with that. Um so let's see what the product looks like. But I think it's important for the council to know we're planning wherever he goes to first that he did make those representations. He was going to try to do that as compared to let's say a station place right by the by the train station that kind of goes up and looks

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the way it does in other buildings. But >> the pedestry, >> yeah, he is uh so he was open to it and uh you know, I was uh happy that he was receptive to that because we don't really have authority to force him to use those types of things, but he was more than willing to try to accommodate

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us and make it look like it's been there for a while. This fits in, you know, so I was happy with that. >> Did so for economic reasons, he's not sympathetic toward saving the house. Did you tour the house itself

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>> and yes >> okay any views on its >> it's in a state of significant disrepair >> and I didn't see from my point of view anything architecturally significant to be saved in the house

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>> that's what >> like Paul and Liam were mentioning I think he's going to uh come to the table with a gesture of using the the posts the uh prof the mushroom profiled posts perhaps as the the signature light post

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in the new development which I think is again not uh not mandated to him in any way. I think he's sort of offering that as sort of a an olive branch >> but he he does he has in the past with other developments has some kind of

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signage naming a development. So that would be >> that could become >> an opportunity, >> the icon if you will. >> Yeah. >> Um when you were talking with him, did >> because I know we thought that an uh an actor, a retired actor had had

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commissioned that house. Did did that come out at all? >> Yes. Yeah, they were aware of that person. Champlain was his name. Um, not >> Charlie Chaplan, >> not not to be confused with Charles

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Chaplan. Um, yeah, and he was a Broadway producer and actor. Um, >> but, uh, yeah. >> Well, I'm I'm just I'm all about telling the story of a building. So, you know, if they're going to have something that

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is retained, then perhaps they could tell the story of the building in some way on that on that post on those two adjoining uh like entryway. I don't know. Just >> Yeah. I mean, it unfortunately it lost a

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lot of its character when they took the cedar roof off many years ago. um originally had a cedar wood cedar roof and it it it gave it more of the effect of a mushroom kind of you know h goblin cottage or you know hobbit

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surviving pictures >> what's that >> are any surviving pictures of the original roof >> I don't I I couldn't find any uh >> because as long as I can remember it's had the existing green asphalt shades >> yeah ear I remember when I was a kid it

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was It was green cedar shingle. Yeah, cuz my my best friend's grandparents lived in the house next door. The one that's going to get torn down as well. >> I can't believe I never noticed. >> I was just since I was part of the team

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to visit the house, I um I just felt that I should offer my two cents uh regarding uh what the developer was uh suggesting about the the new uh project. Um, unfortunately I'm a bit more skeptical than Paul is about the uh what

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the actual architectural value of the new development will be visav what we show in our guidelines as what we what we value from the historic buildings in town. I I'm I'm regret to say uh the the

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de the the developer didn't appear to um exhibit fluency in traditional architectural language um that we you know which is why we're all here. So you know I guess we'll see if we ever get a glimpse of the future renderings. Um,

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but you know, there was mention of a a gamrell roof or a mansard roof uh that would sort of cap his the uh the townhouse development. And my you I just uh my takeaway was that um I think he's

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maybe it's a a a good faith effort to incorporate items from the guidelines. But there's a bigger point though that it's not about just uh sort of applying um

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uh applying sort of in these sort of bits of architectural language in a token way. I think the real value in new development will have to do with actual

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true integration of historically significant architectural elements. For example, like if an applicant comes to us and says, you know, my client's house, you know, needs new windows, we would look at it from from a very

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authentic perspective. It should be, you know, two over two double hung wood sash windows. Um, it shouldn't be a divided, you know, a divided light, a simulated divided lights, uh, you know, simulation. So anyway, just because I

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was part of the visit, um, and I just wanted to offer these comments because Liam and I kind of had a takeaway conversation afterward just about, um, what uh, what opportunity in the future can we have

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um, with developers to um, you know, if they do have, again, if they're outside of our two current districts, there is no mandate for them to do really anything that we're asking them to do. But uh if they are looking

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to do something um historically, you know, authentic and sort of leave a legacy in that in that way with a with a project in the future. It has to be done, you know, with an architect who's fluent in traditional architectural

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language. It's not about applique or sort of um lip service to a gamrell roof. So, I'll leave my sort of stump speech there. But, >> well, I No, I think you make a good point, especially since we're dealing with a developer who is sympathetic to

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maintaining um the character of a neighborhood. So when he developed and donated to redoing the fortune house, he took the step to make sure that the

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apartment building behind it somehow somehow reflected, you know, didn't seem very different than the style of the of the fortune house. So in terms of his development, I almost think more than the mushroom

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house, if you look at the uh the buildings, the large apartment building there and and the building that served during World War II as the USO um in town, which were built in the during the depression era and the 1920s,

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you know, that that would be more of the kind of cue any architect that He kind of contracted with that it would not be very different from those buildings which you know kind of

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developed a little later in our period of interest than like the fortune house for example which is early 1900. So, I mean, if he's willing to to bring us in and have a conversation, that would be great. And

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to continue kind of keeping in touch would be, you know, that would be wonderful. >> Shauna, do you do we know yet what flow or um reviews and approvals this plan will take? We're just beginning

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>> just so folks could follow in theory like is this rehabilitation and a redevelopment plan or is it zoning or planning or what have you but >> obviously >> oh I was just saying like just trying to understand which which boards this is going to go to. So obviously I know you >> probably not this one

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>> um but so folks can be there as well to advocate. >> Clearly that area is not zoned for this >> is my understanding. >> Yeah. Well, that was very helpful >> and I'm I'm sorry to hear that even that

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there was nothing that could be taken away from the inside of the building either. >> You know, >> it's, you know, and >> that was just my opinion about what the state of that building was. I don't know if you two had a different sort of >> I didn't take anything um

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no historical significance per se within the house you know regular 90s hardwood floors you know um low ceiling kind of mix match levels you know it yeah I don't know I mean you buy that

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house you got to rip the roof off because it's you know the roof it was just um I don't know it >> yeah it's >> nothing compelling to me Unfortunately, it doesn't really it is not of a style that is that you think of when you think of

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Redbank. >> Yeah. >> It's it's it's almost it's a style that doesn't exist in Redbank. Really? >> It's quirky. Yeah. So, all the more difficult to >> Yeah. >> to integrated into its surroundings.

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>> Yeah. I I think if you were were you referring to what was originally the BFW building which is now professional I think that's the nicest period building in that area >> and I think you know that the B the what was originally the FW building across

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the street from >> Fin apartment building. Oh the it's the doctor's office that the building that is south of that it's closer to the Walgreens. >> Okay. It's across from Fidtown. Sorry if

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I'm I'm still the new guy in town. >> Oh, >> it was the old Elks Elks. >> It was It was the Elks Club before the depression. They lost it in the Great Depression, >> right? Yeah. >> And they did. That's where they had the USO. >> Yeah. But it still has on the top of the building in stone.

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>> That is That's right. >> the Elks. >> But it that building is architecturally pleasing, I think. So is the apartment building. >> Yes. In a different way. Different sty. >> And that's that was sort of ideal. And

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it's it's high by volume, but it's it's got lots of recessions from the road, lots of landscaping, lots of detail touches, Spanish mission style stuff everywhere. It's really great. I would love to see that building style. >> Right. >> Right. And not the Aelia Gardens, which

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could be anywhere in the country. >> Oh, that could have been a drop. >> Could have been a storage. >> Agreed. Okay. >> Going to be blown. >> Okay. >> Historic trust. >> Thank you. Now, we have historic trust

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grant applications as the next item. >> Yes. So, we have submitted to the historic trust. Um the deadline is tomorrow actually um for two grants. Um

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we are applying to the historic tourism historic trust tourism grant for um close to $9,000 for 50 plaques um from see my legacy um

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to be placed on 50 properties um throughout the broad street district um we have to get property owners to sign off so they have to provide us with a letter saying that it's okay I plan to

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be working with um Marin and a few of the um members of River Center since they own a lot of the properties and I've already got um received confirmation from one of them that he's willing to um especially one uh he owns uh Jack's music store. So, he said he's

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willing to put um a plaque there and he's willing to help me um reach out to the property owners um to get their permission to um put the plaques on. But to submit the application, we don't need

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the letters um we have until August 8th, I believe, to receive the letters um and submit it to the historic trust, but as of tomorrow, our packet is um going to be submitted to the historic trust. So, can we get a list of who is getting the letters?

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>> I think I believe I dropped that in the um >> I just saw the agenda. Amy, I >> in the in the >> portal >> portal. >> I >> It's part of the packet. >> Yeah. >> If not, then that was my my mistake.

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>> I don't know. I I just saw the agenda. Maybe I looked too fast. >> But I'll I'll resend that out. Um so that's the first that's the historic tourism grant. Um the second grant that um I've we've we're applying for is the

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MCP um grant through the historic trust. Um and that is for a new historic preservation um element. Stephen was nice enough to provide us with a proposal

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um for that and um he would be consulting with Banish Associates which is funny because um Frank Banish was my professor. >> Yeah. >> Rackers at one point for one class. Um

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so it'll be nice if we decide to proceed with Stephen um for this to work with him again. But that total cost to do our historic element would be 38,000. Um and then to do 60 um historic um

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architectural survey intensive architectural survey. So that grant is combined to do a historic element and another intensive survey. Um >> how many buildings in that survey? >> That would be 60. So, um, in going

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through the grant, I saw that you're most you're more likely to get selected if we, um, do a disadvantaged um, community. Um, if you, uh, survey

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>> environmental justice community. >> Yes. Um, so we're more our application would be more favorable. So, I know in talking to Marjorie, she's always wanted to um focus on the west side um to do a survey of the west side. So, I think

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we'll have a the grants more catered to doing the survey on the west side and that is actually one of the areas in um Steven's architectural survey um that he did for us. He recommended that area along Shrewsbury Avenue. So,

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um we have put in for that. I'm just trying to find the um his proposal part. So that means the majority the majority of the buildings would be on the west side or

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>> yes just because I mean I think we can mix and match but I think a majority because we did put in that um we'll look at um the under I forgot the word the word I'm sorry >> I and I personally one of the reasons is

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I mentioned the Eisner complex and and the you know the fact that they were so integral in us becoming a commerce center and employing so many of the immigrant population um at that time at the turn of the 20th

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century. So to me it makes sense to highlight that aspect of of town. >> Um and so to do the architectural survey for 60 um properties that would be 22,000. So

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yeah, so we we're applying for the grant to cover both those um scope of work. Um >> so can I ask I know that Anthony um has a lot of information about the immigrant

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population on the west side. Um is is he somebody that could be brought in the loop with with your grant or the the way >> it's being submitted already? Oh, it's already submitted. >> Okay. >> It was due today. >> We guessed it. Well, tomorrow, but it's already it together. Our grant writer is

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great and >> you're very familiar. >> Okay. >> What the process? Um, so they they put together a nice application. I believe we because we received the grant two years ago. I think most likely I don't

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want to, you know, be too optimistic. I think we we may receive it again. And that's why I kind of wanted to keep the numbers low and generally generally around the same amount that we applied for last time. >> Good job. Thank you.

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>> Okay. Thank you. >> Um, one other thing I'd like to mention which is really going back to something we discussed earlier. I have a an idea about our committees of three problem.

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And maybe what we do with the committees of three is designate one of the three as an alternate. Leave it as a committee of three. But every time a discussible topic comes up,

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maybe we go first an email to the two primary members of the committee and if it can get resolved timely with them, fine. If one of them is not available, like there's an out of office or something like that, then

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the alternate gets dragged in. >> Yeah. that >> maybe we do that for sure. What becomes of the situation where one is a yes and one is a no if there's no majority >> then you'd have to have a meeting I

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guess you'd have to pull together a meeting on yes >> or or it comes to the committee as a whole right >> if there's no if there's no decision it should just come to the committee as a whole that would be mean

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>> um well I think, you know, I think it's something to think about. Um, and I I I really if we could get more community people involved in it uh in some way. So, some of the committees or

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the meetings maybe should be advertised and just like we did at the library when we talked about the design guidelines, have an open meeting for community members to come. So maybe that becomes part of the process as well,

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you know, that when we get closer to having everything together for the CLG to have a special meeting just to discuss that. I mean, we can add at the chair's discretion, you could

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call an emergency meeting or an additional meeting to get the input from the public for cooperation. >> So, how do we move forward then with the CLG? I mean, if there there's three of

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us on that right now, do we as the HPC have to decide? because we >> it's it's it's >> we voted on that >> because I I think we feel like it's more work than even a group of three can handle >> and now we're being told it can't be

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group three. >> Well, well, you could you you not that you can't have a group of three or more. It's simply if you do, you need to advertise it. So it would mean that you could select certain potential dates

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when you would meet and and everybody has it in their calendar and it's a predictable date. Send out a yearly notice. You don't have to send it out for every meeting. >> Okay. So it's not that you can't do it, it's that you have to advertise.

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>> All right. And what would be sufficient? So what notice would you have to send out? >> It's a notice under the open public meetings act. It just says uh the you know the the committee CLG committee let's say will have

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scheduled meetings on first and third Wednesday or the of of every month whatever the dates that you want to select subject and they're sub they're all subject to cancellation meetings are subject to cancellation we do that and we do that with

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>> yeah but the the problem is that there isn't a lot of space available here in town hall which is why >> I I I don't know as I suggested earlier if somebody on the that committee was

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able to identify a time that they could use one of the smaller rooms at the library a particular t time and then if you just like what we did with the design guidelines it was the last Friday of every month you know when you you put

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together something like that and that's where the three of you would meet and but anybody of interest from the public could also come >> but you'd have to have a place like we met at the river center conference room

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>> so I I I don't know just an idea because I think it's going to I think it's going to need more than three people even so we'll see a >> just to confirm the the kind of work we're discussing it sounded to me like looking at the national and state

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historic registers, >> finding the Red Bank properties there and then also are we working backward from the sort of acknowledged property list that we have that might also be move need to move from recognition via

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resolution that wasn't quite firm. Well, in the master plan, some properties were listed and it was and it was mentioned at what level they were designated, but they never whoever never followed up and suggested

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these properties by ordinance be established. >> So, wasn't that the point of the um historic sites designation? So technically the historic sites designation committee and the COG

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committee are doing the same work >> and and see be you're correct. There's like a I it and and this so and I so look I'm kind of technical on on procedure because a lot of times if you want to knock out something that

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somebody is doing you'll attack their procedure. You're not following good procedural status under statutory requirements. So you create a committee, it's a CLG committee that really should be focusing on the COG guidelines. And

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the problem is that if you really take the whole umbrella of COG guidelines, they could go back and make certive survey, but it's really kind of going back into a whole different So I my

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recommendation has been and it's in my letter and I'm going to stick with it. Okay, do your homework here. First, take the simple stuff, the the sites that are on the National

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State Register, and make sure they're designated by ordinance for protection. Just start with that. Don't go any further. Get that done and you won't get any more confused. You could then just take because I think Steve Smallland

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has identified additional properties of significance that aren't designated. But I think if you go to council first with the national and state register, it's simple. Break the problem down into manageable bites and

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do that first. That's my recommendation. So I really I see the difference between three and four under reports would be four is looking at these additional designations. The historic sites are are new sites

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that have not been considered before. That's that's my interpretation of the difference. I >> mean >> that was the but when we first formed three >> Yeah. I believe we talked about, and I could be wrong, that that

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committee was going to work on new and old >> or compiling a master list. >> Well, I mean, >> no, it was that they were going to work on new and old designation. >> So, the the there were two parts to the grant. The first part was coming up with

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the design guidelines and the second part was the survey. And so as in the two books that were produced, one is is the design guidelines and the other was

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the sites survey. So that's pretty much >> no. So we had formed this committee before we got the grant. This committee meaning >> the historic sites designation that committee was formed before we received the grant and the whole purpose of it

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was to work on designating existing and new. I believe we tal discussed that at and then when we got the grant, we decided to fold the design guidelines and the um and the architectural survey

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into that committee so we weren't creating another committee. >> Okay. So, did do you do you want to disband that committee? >> No, I just want to know what the difference is between the two so everyone kind of we're not duplicating the work. not really duplicating but you know we're phasing out one because I

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think now you've just handed over a designation to the CLG and so what is this the historic >> I just I just looked at it as as new as I said like part of

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part of this of the architectural survey that page that I listed were new sites to look at the CLG I see that as looking at sites that have already been designated at some other

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level, not looking at new sites. I think you better go back over the CG guidelines because I think that there's a lot of like blending of these of things that aren't necessarily CLG.

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What happens is is that state agents when they're looking over your CLG there are there standards I distributed them like last week or so there are certain they're standard if you look at the standards they don't really say what

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you're saying what that so that what is happening is you're kind of expanding on them because it is not uncommon for the state without necessarily looking at the CLG guidelines as written

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to expand and say, do you have a comprehensive survey? So, it's kind of like a chicken in an egg. I would stick with your historic sites committee. Let them continue that work under the guidance that has been set up previously.

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And if you you know, you could you you you can debate this, but you should just start something. Well, I I tend to problem solve by breaking the problem down into different components because I

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find it easier for me personally. So, if you know that you have sites that are on the national and state register and they're not designated by ordinance, that's an easy fix. Go for that. You can

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in this then then you can say now we have a bunch of other sites that we've identified through this survey that we had done by >> so so the first part what you're saying falls under the purview of four >> yes >> you're talking about the agenda now

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>> yeah no I'm just trying to >> four is certified local government >> as Shauna said that they were redundant and I would >> I was just asking for clarification what >> I have a question under three Yeah, for listen for what it's worth >> you're get you're get you're just

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getting yourself all just take the topic of what should be designated and protected and put it into one category and focus on it and forget where you think it fits is it CLG or not just do it with that committee that's my

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recommendation because you're going to you otherwise you just keep debating what does it fall under >> no I I don't >> that's like the pre At our last meeting, if I may, >> at our last meeting, when I recommended that we create a CLG

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committee, >> what I had in mind at that time was that would be the committee that organized getting together everything necessary to make application to be a CLG.

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Um, now that's just what my idea was. that doesn't mean it's what it should be, but that was what I had in mind when I recommended it. Um, we can make it whatever we think it should be. But I do agree the with the

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basic principle that getting the historic sites designations correct has to happen before we make application via CLG. And I don't know about you. I

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think all of that designation work should be done within one group. >> I agree. >> Can I ask Shauna, do we have u the list of all the national and state

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designated properties? >> It's on the website and you and I sent it to you guys several times. I mean I I know and I not not the list of what they are do the surveys of each of those I mean how many of those do we have done

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already or exist >> in order to have been placed on the national and state register they were surveyed so those survey data if you don't have them here they're available through the county through the state you can do a you know they there you think

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you can go right I think you can actually go online with the state I mean they it's a service website you could go to at the county level and and they just have little >> flips that go around. >> So is that I guess is that an administrative

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uh job ask like okay if we're if we're applying for certified local government then we have access to that information. Is there someone that could be that could be their job designation or or are relying on volunteers

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for certified >> public document? >> I don't know. >> I'm I'm thinking what are we going to present to the council in order to move these from resolution to ordinance. So we need >> going to get the national state register

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had nothing to do with CLG. It has to do with getting the record of the survey work that was done in order to place them on the register. They can't be on the register without that work. >> So that work exists someplace. >> Okay. >> The survey work and they they they do it

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in a certain format and and and and actually essentially the survey work that Steve did in in the most recent is based on that same idea. So you're just gonna he may even have it in there. I don't know. But you you first you gota

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you have to get the data and you get that data and then you go and then Shauna do you have anything you want to add? >> I mean if we say if we say there's you know 20 >> where where are you now finding that? >> It's on our website.

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>> It's on the website. Wow. >> Yeah. The surveys all the surveys that were done by the county. It's on the website. >> Okay. So, is this sufficient to present to the council to move to have that made

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into an protection by ordinance report? >> I think it's probably even simpler. It's just the addresses, the the list and uh I mean honestly these days you could probably go into chat GPT and say turn this into an ordinance to to but uh but

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yeah basically that will just have to be created in an ordinance format which our uh board um our attorney can do if someone doesn't have that. And that's quite good. >> And some of these things are already

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formatted but in the form of resolution that was never put in as an ordinance. So So there's there's resolutions out there. >> And could it be a blanket ordinance then for all of these at once or they have to be done individually? >> Uh yeah, I think even some past you can

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do the multiple. >> Yeah, they did. The ones I've seen have several properties be a list. They're not district designations, but you can you can design designate council can designate numerous sites at the same time. And I you know the you know I

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think we all kind of agree that the mere fact that they are listed on both registers becomes the qualifying factor for having listing at designation by local or >> Michelle I just have a question. Do we

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>> do we have to because this you're amending the zoning ordinance as it relates to someone's property and regulating someone's property. Do we have to then um send out public notice to that property owner notifying it? I just want to know so I don't have

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>> historic designation. Now if it if again if if uh you know the if you do a re-examination report >> then you do not need notice and you eliminate any question but technically

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it's part it's you know store preservation is an overlay right it's not really zoning >> right >> but uh you know you >> so if any question you could just adopt a reexamine then you don't have then then there's no question >> so if I was to draft the ordinance

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taking the resolutions into and turning it into an ordinance. And I give it to council first reading to um amend the historic preservation ordinance to incorporate these sites as a historic

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site um individual landmark site and then it goes to council for first reading. um the notice that's just for the ordinance is sufficient enough to have a re-exam especially. >> Okay. >> So I could coordinate with Greg and make sure. The other thing you want to make

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certain is that those and I I think my recollection is when they were doing the historic preservation element of master plan I think there were recognition of if if they already identified in the historic preservation element that's the

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other necessary component >> so is it in because you know under the state law to design under MLU you designate them as historic provided they're identified historic preservation. So, we would want to check that. Didn't

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you tell me they're doing a new historic preservation? >> That's what I'm applying to the for the grant for. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> So, legally, can she let us know when it's on the agenda for the first readings in case we miss it?

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>> I have to work that out with C. At first I have to draft the ordinance and then I'll work. >> No, but I mean >> is that something that you could email us so we have some notice that it's coming >> or could we make a deadline for it or

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something like that? >> I don't know if there's a deadline. It's it's a simple one, two, three. >> I just I just think that we should know that it's going to be on the agenda and I >> I can notify you. I will notify >> from from experience the the thing that

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usually holds something up from getting on to a particular meeting is just revising the ordinance itself if you know it going through the legal review and it typically if it's if it's completely ready and it gets on the agenda meeting there really isn't a problem. So what happens with an

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ordinance is it's introduced and has a first reading. The council then puts a notice in newspaper we have this ordinance stopped it first reading second reading is when the public comes in to speak. So I'm sure that that

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anyway >> yeah it gets referred to the planning board gets referred to the planning board and then you know you can also look I'll work with her on the technical details and then you'll be notified of the second reading and if you want to go you can go and encourage council to do

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that. I just don't want to miss it. >> That's that's all that's all I'm saying. >> I don't think there's any problem. >> And then part of that presentation, would they also um let the planning board or council understand that this is uh an important part of the CLG

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application process? >> Uh they it it >> and I think we've just talked about it for so long regardless, right? even absent CLG, we I think early on flagged this as just a smart move, >> right? Thank you.

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>> All right. Um, can I make a motion to adjurnn? >> Yes, I have a motion to adjurnn. Do I have a second? >> Second. All those in favor? I I >> Thank you.

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Thank you, Michelle. It was good seeing you. >> Stay safe. Thank you very much.