--------- problem the red back historic preservation commission will hold a regular meeting on Wednesday March 16th 2025 at 7M 90 M Street Red Bank as no meeting has post to B Hall F with B Clerk and provide toess to River time
the commission has maintain a policy cut off hour of 8:30 PM for its hearing did you say 16 or 19 we don't need okay should be 19 we need to is the
19 okay roll call okay Louis Al Marini marjerie Cavalier present Liam Collins present pres Karen smells Doug Miller
Anthony Sato here oh there he is and then Betsy Valera okay um any public comments on the agenda okay moving into administrative
matters uh approval of the rigor meeting minutes from February 19th 2025 someone like to motion to approve that
yeah second I'll second it okay all in favor all right and now next move to minor Works committee reports okay so the minor Works committee ma well through email
this was a fairly um easy application it was for 76-78 Wallace Street um they were replacing their roof um there's has been some leaking um there and so they were replacing their roof ashal shingles with
ashal shingles um and so through email we all agreed that um it was acceptable since it was an original material and that was it thank you River Center I think we already covered that
in terms of the your mic on your mic sorry we already covered the information that River Center would like to have someone on the committee to work um historic design and before we move on is there um
anyone else that I should reach out to um that you would like to see on the committee I I would like somebody who is familiar with architecture architecture I feel like Stephen has that experience archit got
that cover okay but I mean like any other agency community community group or agency I think what about the code enforcement that might be interesting for them as well um he's part-time and
I'm in he very busy so I'm pretty sure it' be very difficult to get him on it um okay but but um to my to my comment before in addition to the people that are actually going to be working with
Stephen he did mention sending out a questionnaire that would go to everybody on the all the members here to respond if we want him to and then that could be also go out to representative in some
some sample of of the residents perhaps that are not necessarily on the committee but you would be asking for responses on on what kind of
architecture they value for example you know if they have suggestions of places for him to look to add to the survey there were professor there was a professor at ruter in planning and he
actually does work all over the world in planning and historic preservation uh he's really one of these traditional urbanist type who is that can I ask he really who is it an Professor ruers his name well he's no
longer there Anton Nellis okay okay my friend since don't know when professor at any rate so he he does these visual impact assessments and other things because he was so convinced that you need to have the community
understand what was the value of their community and what did they like about it so I I like I said that was one of the things that I thought that Steve really did a lot um to really encourage and you know
I would just go with his recommendations you know the more you reach out the better you will be that's how I see so one of the things I thought we could do especially since Anthony and Karen are are both here if we could
establish a time for us to meet with Shauna to begin the work on trying to get those um properties listed in the master plan uh brought to the council for approval so I don't know whether you'd
want to take a look at your calendar and get back to Shauna time of day or day that that works for you so we could find a day that works for all four of us I can be pretty flexible in the afternoon I don't know with Karen how much she's
teaching with her schedule is like um I sent Shauna a list of some properties that I was starting to put in a database uh to maybe share with everybody or we could add to it and kind of just kind of you know start putting those
together so maybe if we could if you guys could look at your schedule and come up with a a two hour block maybe uh either the last week of March or the first week of April so we get going on it how about
that Wednesday Christina do you think that the council will want to designate more properties if their design guidelines aren't in place I just couldn't I remember that there was like a somewhat of a you know you know we we
really kind of had to I think advocate for the ordinance I stated I agree um I think it's certainly makes it easier um but are these limited to National the next well we're going to start I think
with the ones that are in the master plan so are you free which master plan the one that was just published not the element so she she's referring to in the master plan it listes the national and the in the state yeah the county and the
county I passed out a copy of it I I don't have that meth clim with me tonight that so what the goal was for um as you had mentioned in your presentation earlier was had vocally designated yeah the ones that are there well there's there's different there's
like kind of different lists I think right but this was just to get started just to get to get the national and state Register see that's what I think Christine is trying to clarify and I'm trying to CL National and state registered listed properties that are
only designated by resolution so they're theoretically not theoretically they are actually not designated no that's correct so that I think that's I I I I would recommend that as the first baby step and then I need to revisit the
ordinance that I had I mean the letter that I had written about the discrepancies in all the prior surveys that's where my my it it it's just have to be careful so uh Karen and Anthony
does April 2nd Wednesday in the afternoon work work for you guys um I yeah sometime between let me see Donna April 2nd work for you I'm available yeah I mean between 12 and two
would work or one and three one and three yeah how about one and three Karen uh yes one and three on April 2nd to get started I will send out the invite right now meeting um just when uh if shaa I
don't know if you can share that list with them so that they can start see it when we talk about like possible National or you know historic sites we have some major ones that are not in this plan like the Galleria the Armory
like those are major like potentially historic sites you know that's why I'm having trouble I I plan to share with them for the before meetings thank you all right we said one to three one to three on April 2nd a
Wednesday and we will meet uh in the conference room by Shauna's office okay good moving on to old and new business uh there's no old business on the agenda the new business is the annual report the annual report
that with our pack materials for this meeting has everyone had a chance to see it and does anyone have any comments on it um my only my only comment was with respect to the attendance I didn't realize I thought there was a period
last year where there were no meetings when the there was the election of Philly or was that the previous year that was January so it was only one month and then we started in February February was our first official meeting and that was it that was it yeah
okay you're thinking about the previous only for that if for 2024 I covered oh I see okay I got two pages any other questions or comments if everyone is okay with it
then do we have to vote on the um approving the annual report to send to council and the planning board okay okay motion move
second all in favor I I okay any uh further public comments on non agenda or other items oh for the public this oh so
Jus oh um oh I just want to add um I did send out for the email for the historic preservation conference um please let me know if anyone would like to attend that so I can register you one in June yes
June 5th fourth and fth I think okay that's all I have I'm one of the presenters at that conference it's all about immersive historic experiences and we're showing off a lot of uh different things so there'll be a lot of Red Bank stuff that
we'll be showing off actually and that's in that's in Burlington yeah Burling um yeah at the Burlington uh prison which I is haunted and all this crazy stuff I wasn't aware of it but it's this historic prison in
Burlington so so where garlic around your neck I think so they actually one of the immersive experiences that they do is a trap room experience where they lock you in a jail cell I
can't SE is out on that [Laughter] one so I had a comment for new business is it now the time yeah sure all right so um if anyone doesn't know um 65 Wallace I mean 65 Washington Street um
was put on the market which is um historic house one of my favorite houses in the whole neighborhood uh slate roof um I went to the open house last week um the place is a complete mess um and it was priced accordingly at
500,000 it's currently pending um and um I don't know if we can be proactive somehow but uh I would hate to see something significantly change on that house without our input on it and I know
we talked and I can tell you that at the realtor um when I went to the open house knew nothing about the property uh could tell me nothing about it and I find and she didn't tell me it was in historic district she didn't tell me anything about the property and I'm concerned uh
that something could happen with a new buyer developer whoever it is um and us be unaware of it and lose a property like that which I think would be um not great for the town so designated it's in the Washington Street
District so to alleviate your work yeah the new buyer um who's in contract right now actually did reach out to me yeah um and they actually we had a conversation um and they were asking
questions they understood that it was in a historic district um and they wanted to make they want to make improvements so I sent them the application um but also on Monday actually I think Monday let me double
check check my calendar this Monday I have a meeting with them they schedule a meeting with me actually to um discuss like what they can do to the property so to alleviate any worry about that they did do their due diligence they were
back and forth um to be honest they were back a little back and forth on whether or not they were going to buy the house because it was in a historic district and was how restrictive it was um going to be for them but uh I guess they decided
to proceed because they do love the house and um they wanted to schedule a meeting with me and from the email it looks like the architect that they are going to work with actually sits on the
Madan um historical commission um so he'll be ADV advised by his architect um I don't know if I'll be meeting with him too um but on Monday but I have a meeting with them and they are um they did do their due diligence
about that so so one of the things I that was mentioned at the conference is the real estate disclosure law actually one of the things that people don't realize one of the many things
that they sign off on supposedly is that the realtor is supposed to notify them of any restrictions on the property which doesn't sound like it happened here since she has it listed on the MLS that it's a historic site and it's in the
district she she has it listed multiple times that it that it was okay that's good good yeah and that might not be something that everyone can see but I'm a real estate agent so I just pulled it up here to see and she does have it stated several times uh that it's in the
historic district yeah I see it on Zillow too and that due diligence is required they also required a cash buyer for it uh a bunch of different disclosures are here on it okay great great good to know thank you
Anthony that's never that's why I said right um well I just had a question that Michelle was talking about so can we implicate or do we need motion to um establish a procedure that when the
historic uh when our commission gives an gives an opinion as to our approval for changing out windows or roof or whatever it is that something goes along with just a simple stamp of approval to the zoning board to specifically State um
what exactly it is that we approved and what our concerns were because like I was explaining earlier um that's not what's happening at least in my experience with the zoning board so do we need need to make a motion for a procedure like that and maybe have sign off on the form something like that good
idea yeah I I I I think that U about a month ago or so I sent the forms to Shauna she said that she did distribute them and I think if you reviewed them I mean that you you need to modify them and make them specific to each of the circumstances that you're addressing but
it should be standard practice that you have a formal manner of moving forward adopting a resolution specifying the what you reviewed and what you impose as conditions you request to be impose those conditions so
and and also when we amend that I would just suggest that if the chair was not present at the actual presentation that the vice chair could sign off on what goes to the zoning commission that Mak
sense yeah that's a good idea Paul and so can you bring that up at the zoning board as law as far as their procedures to implement that in their side sure there's actually a zoning board meeting tomorrow and I'll bring it up on new business uh for purposes of this motion Michelle can you craft word can you word
craft something leave anything out now should there would be a this motion right now yeah so the motion is to uh establish a procedure you want to press that button I'm sorry the motion is to establish a
procedure for the uh commission's action on both advice to the uh what the planning or zoning board and its review of a permit that number one they uhop they Ed the form uh I prepared
as modified to meet the individual circumstances that there be a set of plans that are specifically referenced and that the conditions be specifically listed in these resolutions uh included in that in in the forms that I prepared
uh there are various requests that to ask the Zoning Board in particular on or planning board on applications that if they approve out architectural plans that are different from what you looked at that they refer
back to you again yes so to be clear this would communicate what we approve uh or turn down to both zoning and planning depending on
the circumstances yes okay all right I'd like to make a motion that we adopt such a procedure and I would second all in favor I I can we just can we just review that or
does that have to wait till the next meeting to establish that procedure can can we just see it and then just get back to Shauna we approve so you just adopted it but you you just I could put it into a formal written resolution if that's what you'd
like is that I think so I just like to see it writing and you do have the actual forms in writing which essentially are what you're going to be
using stop the forms already exist this is just a process I sent the form we're adding our input that we can see what goes up this gets back to why we put the flowchart question because it sounds to
me like there was no Arrow between two boxes on the flowchart so perhaps next month uh Jonah would be able to distribute the flowchart that she currently uses and you'll be able in between this meeting
and next meeting to look at the flowchart see if it really expresses how you anticipate the applications or the permits should proceed consistent with this ordinance because it might have been from a
prior previously you didn't have a weak commission store one so that'd be a good idea for you to look over that flowchart and see how you need to amend it in conjunction with this any other matters was there ever an update on is that 40 Broad Street that's
doing the windows and they never came before the commission did they ever get fined or what's the what's happening because they're continually doing stuff I sent it to vot enforcement um and I'm
still waiting to hear back from them um but I'll check in with the Frank Woods okay they already ruined the upper Windows the upper Windows used to have like really cool like I don't know what you call it like a Bo like boxing or
whatever now it's just plain black you know within I don't know if you see it it's not ornate at all there's also the former Elks building that's they're working on a mama Street has anybody seen anything on
that oh the one near next to the Dublin House the one next to the Dublin house next to Dublin yeah that was a former location for Masonic Lodge or Elks or something they're doing a lot of stuff there above
S V there's like the old Elks or something building uh sign still hanging off the side of the building anybody seen that come through on say the S of V building is that what you're talking about yes yes yeah no no one's seen anything going on with that because
they're working on it they're working on it but I haven't seen any permit through yeah I just hope they maintain the historical information at the top near the the crown of the building you on the
list I think so that's the first question you be is something designated or is it in a district or is it I really I think you just have districts anyway so otherwise you don't have
jurisdiction okay address find 16 mmth 16 mouth Street I know they're doing interior Renovations 51 45 the
diner oh well hopefully they won't destroy the top I think one of the worst experiences uh I saw was um the municipality would not require a permit unless a
construction permit was recorded which is a terrible mistake and so this was in planfield and there was this building the Van Wick Brooks house it was the whole District was named after this house and you don't need need a construction permit to
replace a window in the same opening so they took down all of these gorgeous signature windows and repl them with modern Windows they didn't need any Ru that's why we our trigger is not a construction F okay
any other items you can't see that history Mark anyone want to move to journ but there's definitely all in
favority thank you all hi Anthony all guys thank you take care Part: 2
I'll again y the red P the Red Bank historic preservation commission will hold a regular meeting on Wednesday March 19th 20145 at 5:30 p.m. at 9 M Street red
back New Jersey adequate notice this meeting has composed bur Hall filed with the B Clerk and provided to the asur par pres the Two River TS the commission has maintained a policy C on hour 8:30 PM for
hearing please Allegiance flag flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stand one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all sorry I just had a question um is
this technically a regular meeting as exactly my thing I wanted to add in that you you gave a special notice for this particular meeting at 5:30 yes um I well I actually I have to do no
well there's okay two agendas okay yes is Al Marini present Marie caber present Liam Collins pres Paul Kagel absent L is going to
join at six um Karen schof I don't know if Ken is here that I can't get yeah Doug Miller absent Anthony satero I am here via Zoom can you hear
me can you hear me yes we can hear you it's just okay I think it's better now all right how's that sound better um and Betsy Betsy Valera okay as to the
agenda uh the primary business to be done today will be the new business the HBC Workshop but I'd like to just go through the other agenda items first it's a matter of course to see uh comments so I'll start with uh public
comments why don't we do put public comments on this agenda and also any public comments um not on this agenda all right there will be a a regular meeting at 7:30 so there will be another opportunity for
comments uh then I'd like to go straight to uh or anyone want to raise any old business at this session or we'll save that for the seven meeting I think that has to be at the seven meeting just by the
agenda okay so then um I'd like to go straight into the workshop okay so the uh I received a series of questions that I asked Sean I to give a series of questions and uh and
I I got a whole mix of questions here they they range uh in many different respects and then understand that some of you attended a session on Saturday which was a an overview of many different aspects of historic preservation law um I'm quite familiar
with uh the the woman who Janine Bower who presented that uh and and so there are there are a lot of things that you learn there but certainly go beyond what we're going to be able to do in terms of the the role what we really want to
achieve tonight so the before I go into the questions uh you should have like a little toolkit with you at every meeting that should consist of the ordinance that has been adopted the master plan his preservation
element and those components are really what are your foundational pieces of information that will guide you in your decision making so uh the questions that were asked are are rather Broad and I'm going
to answer them to the best of my ability the ones that I can answer uh so but you should read your ordinance and understand what powers you have invested in you in the ordinance and we can go into those again as we
proceed through this and the basis for how the ordinance was uh put together uh based on the master plan that that really is what guides the designation so what the first question is what are the rights of a property
owner in a designated historic district and can they decline to participate so um this is a very uh interesting question because many communities that felt they were somewhat
conflicted in adopting historic preservation ordinances thought maybe they would have it as a voluntary aspect um I'm familiar with only one case that addresses this issue and came
out of like Washington State and I think the logic and reasoning of the case very very strong and that is is that it's not a law if you can volunteer to comply with this and if you think about sewing this is an aspect of land use a some do
call it an overlay of you know and it it it's an aspect of the regulation of the use of land and and the buildings on the land and uh if you were to to say I could do it voluntarily with zoning you
would you you undermine the plan and that's what the Washington case says that a voluntary ordinance undermines the validity of a plan this is part of a plan and preservation should be part of a comprehensive plan that should be
integrated with other aspects of Municipal regulation so uh I often you know and and in the very beginning I had several conversations with Shauna as the town
planner in terms of understanding the relationship of zoning to Historic preservation it's one of the most challenging most important and most forgotten elements of historic preservation because you have a district
and the district has a let's say we take you a little downtown you have a prevailing pattern you have a certain number of stories you have setbacks you have a scale and and aspects of that development that probably predate
zoning but nevertheless are very uh essential to what makes this the area have integrity as a historic district if the or so let's assume the the height
of the buildings in that District range from two to four stories in height if your underlying zoning allows 10 story buildings you obviously have a incompatibility I often say it's uh it's
like putting icing on a cake that's too big okay so that that that's an aspect that is the most challenging most difficult to accommodate but it certainly is a legitimate one so the next question is what happens if there
is substantial proof that a property or district there is substantial proof and I think what they mean to say that a property or District meets the criteria for designation as historic but the local government doesn't approve it doesn't
get approved there no uh you could have a master plan plan it very thoroughly looks at it a all and that's supposed to be your foundational piece is the master plan the hisor preservation element and
that historic preservation element uh identifies the importance of the historic structure the governing body has the good question to regulate or not regulate that's that's their their power you really have no um option to do
anything now if it happen to be a public building either Municipal County or state or federal not federal I'm going to take that back for the moment Municipal County or State Building and it is
designated on the state Register of hisor places that it's re then it is regulated under the state Register law but not under a local ordinance so the next question had to do taxes Grant tax incentives grants and other funding opportunities the city's
user have access to that Red Bank is currently not taking advantage of or implementing and we discussed that previously and the the great Misfortune is there are very few uh F you know incentives Financial incentives state
has the uh it has had in the past year or two it has really been promoting this uh you know through the state funding agencies uh commercial uses so commercial buildings that are
designated on his on the registers are entitled to tax credits if they renovate according to the criteria of the national uh you know you know the national standards Secretary of the Interior standards they are entitled to
tax credit the state agency had um a program for commercial again that if you keep the historic building you get certain distinct advantages and money actual
right might money not just credit um but uh there there's a like a minimal tax abatement program that a municipality can put into place mentioned it the last time we were here and but otherwise uh I know that U when I was on the board
Presby New Jersey for many years they we we continue continually promoted a state law that would have given greater incentives for the preservation of historic buildings and there was just no
interest it just it has just no interest I look at preservation as the newest kid on the Block what it comes to Landers regulation and it is so you have to just you know it's it has a limited
acceptability uh it it's it's often approached with a considerable amount of distrust because there's so much SEL subjectivity in some of the decision making and so you know it it's uh several years ago I and was night I got
involved with the first statute and then we amended it in 1991 and there are a number of amendments that I thought really would be really good to put into place and so I was uh working with uh the New Jersey
planning officials and the uh we have a organiz a committee that does legislative work and the uh committee you know I I made recommendations for some very modest changes we're not
talking about any radical and they said well the only if if you put in anything for a change for historic preservation they're probably going to repeal the statutory authorization what it you know it's it has it it it
sadly is not as accepted as it could be in a lot of it is because of criticism some rightly and some un rightly that have been leveled against actions of of various throughout State not not you know not red B I ask yes of course who
took that position that when I tried it was the it was called the a municipal am use law I'm sorry who was the person and not but the the position of the person that member of the committee of a prominent
attorney prominent language and I'm not sure which one it was but at that time I was the only person on the committee who favored preservation that thought we could do some changes to the statute that would improve some of the language
okay so they were just prominently new attorneys I mean so because a vision that I have for this and we're a place to go for this Committee in redb particular as relates
to Historic properties is we're doing the right thing do you have to have your microphone on I think we're doing the right thing to do a survey uh and and to define the
attributes of historic properties and I think once we have good definitions in place we need to evaluate our properties and my gut sense is that
there will be many properties that if you appli a very high standard as to what are the true attributes of a truly historic preserve structure very few will meet that hurdle and I think it's Financial it's
costly to when doing renovations uh replace historic correct materials with same materials or comparable materials and I think there need to be that the P of success if Red
Bank believes that historic preservation is an important objective I think for for for homes the only path to success is to offer somehow Financial incentives to
those presumably few who have properties who will be with those incentives willing to invest whatever is needed to get those properties so that they meet that high standard and that may take the form of
awards it may take the form of tax abatement property tax abatement but that is what I see as you know something I'd like to see Pursuit we're not ready yet there's a lot of work to be done to get there but
I see that as something that we should take a look and I just wanted to second that comment based on the conference we attended on Saturday when other municipalities talked about either or some kind of
incentives it was as you said a very high bar but it had to be based on design guidelines that are published so that the homeowner would have a
checklist to understand what is expected to to receive that designation as as uh contributing so you know I I I think that just walking around Red Bank
you could tell that some could be getting that designation but not a lot but it could serve as a carrot to encourage other homeowners who may be partially there that still have some of
the original ornamentation and and woodwork Etc to maintain it if nothing if nothing else you know yeah this this is the underly it's an underlying dilemma that you and everybody else who seeks to preserve historic resources must face uh you know
uh unfortunately you municipalities uh you know budgetary Wise often have a lot of limitations and there it does happen to be I think a selected ele that there are people who buy historic homes because they love historic homes they
put money into them because they love to see that look beautifully and be restored there are also those and there's a perhaps um there's is a a man named Donald ripar who has focused on
economics and preservation there's a lot of literature that he has written and there's a lot of studies that he has undertaken and I believe and I haven't looked at his resources in a while but he has studies that show that if you
live in a regulated historic community and people maintain and keep their properties up to the historic standards recognizing that ordinary m and repair
is the key to long-term preservation that their property values are enhanced it's the protection of the hole that advances the increasing value so he that's that that is a person who has
really focused on this particular aspect of the preservation dilemma so you know I think that um The National Trust for store preservation has uh online libraries that have a lot of his
materials so that you know you might be able to look at them and you know and see what you can bring from them but I wouldn't look at it as as an impediment because you know and and and maybe we the uh you know maybe where some of the
F you know the funding like I think I mentioned last time that I had purchased really beautiful dilapidated old house in runs and it had good bones that was how I looked at it this house had a
future and I restored it and the outside of the building looked like it did back in 1868 the inside of the building was just absolutely a gorgeous place I ended up making a huge amount of money it was my first real estate investment and it was
in an area that was not regulated but the city had this very modest abatement prog was modest I think I got something like a $25,000 tax statement that increased decreased over a course would that have made the difference in what I
did know but it just it is it is something so shall I continue with the other things so I think one most important what are the best practices for engaging the community and historic preservation efforts I think one of the reasons when I looked over the proposal
for the design guidelines and I saw the one from Bella that you decided to to hire is his focus on education and involvement of the community and uh uh you know I'm an attorney so people would say we don't
involve the community but I you know I think it's absolutely the critical part providing education having you know events where you invite people and you show them what it is that you do what you can do
and the fact that you can be a benefit to them in the long run so uh I I'm going to kind of put it to the side because it's really not my biley Wick but I think you chose the professional who is going to bring in the community
it's right um I have a question in that regard one of the things that was mentioned by Stephen actually uh at the conference when I I shared with him that three of us are going to be working with
him he suggested that we could he felt we could add members other Shake uh shareholders when we were meeting with him so and one of the things he
suggested was uh a local Chamber of Commerce and I explained that we had the liaison with with Haron with the River Center River Center has asked to be on the the committee for the design guidelines oh okay I was going to bring
it up at the okay good and and so that's all right that's all I have to say about that that I think it's a good idea to do Outreach in every neighborhood that is either already designated or that you might to look upon to designate in
future so uh and and just bring them on board as early and as often as possible and uh because communication and understanding are really important and and the success of any preservation F so the next question is what are best
practices in general when it comes to empowering an HPC so practices and empowerment are really kind of like two different things but the powers of an HPC in New Jersey are
derived from the land use law you have two Powers essentially you have power to review permit applications and you have the power to provide advice on applications for development uh the best practices and how to uh to to deal with the powers
that you have in this community by virtue of your ordinance is to work with people that are coming to you for approvals um make it an open process and the most critical part of it is to get
those design guidelines going I I I I said it from day one and I'll say it until the end of days okay that is what you need to really improve the the communications and the understandings um
now are examples of how an HPC with enforcement power now that's like really so so you have your regulation and let's say you uh and and then you let's say that you put in a condition and it says
that you do certain Design Elements and they're imposed and then they go build a building they don't have the design element element that's where the enforcement you're not enforcement agency your governing body does all the enforcement and so there are two ways and one of the things that I I I look at
and I did look at here you have a you have a very good Property Maintenance ordinance it's already in place there there are some little uh specific elements that can be added to a the standard uh pres standard
convention property management of Maintenance ordinances which usually come from the same codes that we get our uniform construction codes they're they come from an entity that creates codes that
municipalities throughout country use okay and uh so you know there's certain things that can be put in in terms of protection against deteriorating trim and things of that nature but you do have a good
ordinance it's just that somebody else has to enforce it you are not the enforcer and other thing that I know that Liam has brought up and which is a standard problem is the problem of demolition by neglect okay where you purchase a piece of property you don't
take care of it it gets to be in such bad shape and say it's too far gone I can't fix it so that is where that's how it really it was um wealthy elderly women and in
Savannah that came up with the idea of the demolition delay we have it in our ordinance it's used in many ordinance throughout the country that it puts a delay into the actual uh right you know the the right
of someone to to polish and there's a whole process that gets involved to avoid a taking of property that uh you know you know if something really is is so bad that it can't be re you know redone there there are different standards and criteria but you get to
the point where you say okay I'm going to demolish this building I have to demolish it then you have to offer to people and they have the you know right you know sell it so uh if somebody steps to the plate and comes up with money then you you can save the
building in Savannah that beautiful city after World War II was facing great crisis and the women themselves created the funds they
would purchase a building they would restore the building or they would sell it with restrictions to have it preserved so those are we we do have demolition delay but it someone has to step to the plate when something is is
potentially being threatened with demolition uh I know one instance I I did work for uh you did Cape May years ago I did Ocean City years and ocean cities successfully saved their historic Coast
Guard Station through the demolition delay so you know that that that's you know that's the best I can say about it I ask a defition related question in R if someone wants to demolish a property
does that be hisor just is that person required to get a permit to do that yes is a demolition permit under UC okay all right so that initiates the process in other words that gets it to our attention someone
would have to violate the or well if you're designated hisor if you're designated in a district you're a designated site then they would have to come here first for a permit and prove that they meet the criteria for demolition I thought you said if it's
not designated but but well I did and so who is the first who who receives in Red Bank who receives that permit is it for a regulated historic site or is it for an unregulated both so so so so what we try
to do here is we the ordinance is drafted in such a way that anyone applying for a permit permit to demolish is a permit is encouraged to come here first but they don't have to they could go to the
uh they could go right to the construction code official or whoever is the signed person and that it's usually construction code official and he any construction code official under the state
law must establish that all prior approvals have been met the prior approval includes any permits required under land use and under for preservation so then he would they would refer it here and then you have that 45
day period because you were created as a weak but not a strong commission so you would have to review it in a rather timely fashion make go through the criteria in the ordinance make your your recommendations to the planning board
and then the planning board okay so to summarize the construction officer knows if someone shows up there requesting a permit to demol and they play them or they may actually just not know that they're in a historic property but they apply for the permit he will
cross check uh he will he should have the tools and the knowledge to refer to us yes and that's why I I I consistently recommend that everybody in in the town that has a role
in granting any permits has have a map the zoning map with the historic preservation overlay designation overlay so that they say oh okay and it really is good if you have the map accompanied by lot and block
design and they have that in the constru you're asking me I don't work all right they you have they they check with me first they always check they always check good okay that's good because at the end of the day if if someone were asking what's the like if if we could
only accomplish one thing what would it be it would be to prevent historic properties from being demolished what most say I also have a question about uh demolition so it's one of the things that was
mentioned again at the conference was when a demolition is applied for the phrase undo hardship is used yeah so but they took great care in saying
that that was not the economic impact of the owner but it seems like that's like the justification that a lot of people yes bring up so I I guess I'm looking for the difference between those
two concepts okay so uh so you're absolutely correct and that the biggest objection that you hear how much it's going to cost us what if we had to do with slate roof so the first thing and and and this is you know this issue of economic
hardship involves a blend of what is Lan's law with what are the criteria for variances because there are certain variances that are based on hardship and a hardship variance is not a variance
that is based on economics that it is based on the size shape of property or some aspect of it that makes it impracticable that's really what the statute says to comply we're when reservation was first enabled
in 1985 and a lot of towns put in ordinances in facing public opposition to the ordinances they put in a hardship provision that said that if the cost of doing something was prohibitive then the the um commission
could Grant relief and many of the design guidelines themselves have integrated into them economic factors so not uncommon to find design guidelines that say if you have a slate
roof and the slate roof cannot be repaired which is kind of interesting question of when it caning when it can but let's say somebody can prove to you that it's so badly deteriorated that you can't repair it they gave options in the design guidelines for replacement roofs
because the cost of a slate roof was really quite prohibit sool the city of Nork in the Forest Hill section I'm pretty sure that that's what it was that they had this hardship provision and the State Attorney General
rendered an opinion and said it's illegal State Attorney General's opinions are not binding law okay the the but the problem is is that if you as a commission or the governing body is
enacting an ordinance and they're going to enact the design guidelines get enacted by ordinance and they say we don't care how much of course we can't look at it count on you're probably not going to get that
ordinance I think it's an this is a debate that has permeated in many many different areas and there are some Consultants who will say that that's a crazy opinion yes there is an opinion of the Attorney General yes nobody knows how to
find it and not it's not available in the law books and it says you can't look at economics okay I think design guidelines and anyone who writes them in a way that makes them feasible in a community has a
certain element of economics in and inevitably you picked up the conflict every your opposition is going to be money and and and it'll you know so there it's just um there are just uh you
know inherent difficulties so I don't think that money per se should be the determining factors that's why we got to get these design guidelines going because you know there's there there's some really phenomenal language that
I've seen that says basically let's say you had the slate roof and it's so farly deteriorated that the underlayment is deteriorated and replacement of the roof would be so prohibitively expensive and we could put uh you know one of the the new slate roofs yet they don't look like
the old slate roofs but you know I there was a a woman who did you know Heritage Consulting actually she did some of your your work years yeah I think I talked to her Connie G yeah so Connie was like considered to be the grandmother of
historic preservation in New Jersey and she was she founded preservation New Jersey she was President until I became president uh so she really you know she really knew her stuff too siding is the other one you know but
she said some of the new historic uh substitute siding was so uh real that she would have to to go and knock on it to see if it was wood so
you you these are decisions that are made when you write your your your design guide lines so you create enough flexibility that you're not backed into a corner that it must be slate or you don't have it that's where the rubber hits the
road uh is in the design guidelines and how you going to word them and remember you're going to make them you're going to help draw them up with your new consultant your your FAL council is going to have to adopt it otherwise they're not part
of the ordinance and that's what they're supposed to be so think about that when you're writing them up to build in the type of you know flexibility that may you know be something you need to to not be
overly strict and that's not prohibited what the the Attorney General's decision assuming that you would give it the weight of law which is not necessarily the case under case law case Law's way
to the law not attorney general's opinion there was an ordinance provision that said that if you come before the commission and you say it's too expensive for me to comply they can give you relief I don't think anybody wants to do
that so just you know I I I think they that what it comes down to and what you mentioned already was that that preapproval or conceptual approval conceptual some kind of a conversation
about what they want to do yes yes yes um because to have an understanding that if the slate roof can be repaired if this issue was leaks and it only requires 10% of the roof to be replaced
with slate or or if you have um Windows you know if they can be repaired or if they can't be repaired to make sure it matches the style that was there previously you know
so I think when we when we get down to it um and I don't know when we get Stephen on board these are some questions for him of course but to so that we have an understanding when somebody comes before us what are our
expectations well your expectations are going to be in the design G right that's what I'm saying and those design guidelines are if if developed in a process that brings the community in are available for people they can go
on the website they can find them they can come in and get a print of them that's what that is and that becomes a selling point we it and it really does it becomes a selling point because people say gee I you know I bought this house I really love old houses I don't
know much about them I just love them but look at this I just found this wealth of information that my town has presented in the design guideline so that's where it is and then you're going to apply the design guidelines on a basis you know that it's not going to be
Case by case you have a you have a standard to refer to okay okay so now why age matters okay this has to do with the criteria for designation is you know that the national register criteria
which has been essentially adopted in New Jersey uh they just it age is a factor but not a compelling Factor it is not the only factor and it you cannot just designate something because it's
old there are things that they it needs to have it needs to have some you look at the national registra criteria there are things in our ordinance that broadly um you know incorporate those National register criteria and those are also
what's supposed to be in the master plan in historic preservation element the the element is supposed to say here's what we look at in terms of why something should be designated I think this the national register always have like a 50-year minimum but it just age itself
doesn't qualify for the designation does that answer that question I don't know who did it um so I had a question uh I mean when we look at the originally designated parts of Red Bank they were all based simply on age there's nothing
historical about any of the houses in the historic district or the you know maybe the you know Temple of Fashion on bro street but all of those were originally designated simply because of
their age so why is that not heavily we Factor especially in the collective uh group of houses of Red Bank that's what makes Red Bank unique is not one or two different old houses
but all the old houses together in these neighborhoods creates the character I'm not so sure that that was why they got designated I just you know I think one of the biggest challenges i f bed when I began working on this in in
Red Bay is that your documentation was like um not readily available and seemed to like kind of be all over the place so I know that you know you had uh like that when I
mentioned Heritage Consulting your 2009 master plan has a very um you know lengthy discussion of why things should be designated as histor other than
age so I think maybe you didn't have all the paper I know I every time I turned around I kept thinking there was something else that I missed that where was this or where was that and and it was like it was kind of
um to some extent like a pendulum s that you'd see all these these things are big length of properties and description of them and and don't forget you had the mammoth County uh survey which was you know very you know had if you you know
you use the mammoth County survey they they Bas it on National register criteria as to whether or not something qualified so I think that was just something you hadn't seen they did I didn't see anything that indicated anything was based solely on age and I know you can't get on the
national without just just by age so remember it's the Yer plan historic preservation element sets up the criter what are the criteria for designation stat that was mandated by Statute that was why when I was initially working on it before the
changing government and the new Master Plan came into effect and they didn't have anything on the m in the historic preservation element we went back and they they made changes to it in order to put in some some additional information
I do think that it would be a really good idea to have it more comprehensively addressed so that it also addresses the inter relationship to It's supposed to address the inter relationship to other elements of the
master plan that includes the L use element and the L use element is what defines the density and intensity of development I I you know because I you know it's a it again that's a very important pce in the whole puzzle so but
you know it's like I think you know you're making tremendous amount of progress and that's what happens it doesn't come as quickly as many well you know I would prefer but I'm sure many would prefer but that's that's government slow so um and it was asked for um
examples of how Fair Haven Cape Mayar toown and other towns are effectively using this criteria I.E the criteria of age I have no idea what fear Haven does Cap May uses F
does age is almost like a non- entity in in in in K May because of the nature of the community they have all kinds of architectural standards and things like that um I haven't seen well last I worked in morrist toown was many many years ago and they had no ordinance
so okay what powers do existing ordinances give our HP say are we strictly advisory or do we have regulatory Powers so you have two Powers you have the
permit review function and you review applications for development the permit is something not approved by the application for development but these two pieces always seem to get interwined okay you are a weak
Commission in that respect when you get a permit you comment make your recommendations and the planning board decides whether or not to implement those recommendations and you're purely advisor and applications for developers
so you have no regular that is there a slow chart there she I know that I'm sorry I just had a followup question it's General but why would uh a city um have a weak commission over a
strong commission what's the reason for that uh because the uh governing body in adopting the ordinance did not want to invest the power to control the issuance of permits with the HBC I'm happy to speak to it too when we
were Drafting and we went back and forth on that particular issue for us it was more about checks and balances than it was and I I think we were looking for land use boards that were making determinations collaboratively so that it really would be in most cases a
nonissue that the planning board had the final sign off that this board was able to make its case and that these these uh land use boards were working together unfortunately we had had a pass where that wasn't always happening and it had led to a lot of strife between the the boards and obviously as uh as Michelle's
pointing out when it's a an application for development a lot of times it's Direct to those land use boards anyway first so this was a way to kind of keep it full circle um I just need clarification on one thing in the ordinance under scope and purpose the
first one reads the commission shall report to the planning board and Zoning Board of adjustment on development applications for properties in the historic district etc etc so can we interpret
development new construction that it would it would add to it would be sympathetic to the design in that you know there's a lot of tear Downs going
around so what replaces those tear Downs do we have the ability to advise that they would be kind of historically you know add to it as
opposed to something that's just like a a drop in like um I'm I'm thinking of the one it's not in the historic district but on Shrewsberry that people put up a little SN about the one that just was like prefab housing that was
just like a box do we have the ability to in a in a designated District kind of have that conceptual plan approved by us before they go for the permits only as as it it you you do you if it is
designated either as a site or District it comes here for a permit for demolition now this is a very interesting twist with respect to a strong and a weak commission but because you all
right so let's assume you had a strong commission and you have an ordinance that regulates demolition you have need in need Department which is what you do you have an ordinance that regulates demolition or relocation you have
it so but if you had a strong Commission in that particular instance I won a big case years ago and it really is considered to be I mean it was decided by courts and reinforced technically the planning
board has no jurisdiction over demolition we go through every Power of planning board they don't regulate demolition so in a strong uh Community strong commission
Community the commission solely have solely regulatory power over demolition because you have a weak commission you make your recommendations to the planning board and the planning board accepts or rejects them yeah but maybe I'm not being clear we currently have a
property on river River Road that has already been demolished it's like across from the hospital it's blank like they have some trees there in grass so somebody owns that property I don't know who owns that property but if somebody
decides to build on that do we have any say so in that what they put on that property should reflect in some way what was there in the past as opposed to something that is mid-century modern for
example you need design guidelines to address that but you're asking even if it's not in a district do an opportunity to uh present an opinion to another land use board yeah
you there's no not right can advocate for something but you don't have any power but that in the case you're saying that is in the historic district right so if it's in a historic district then you run into the most intractable
problem of new construction in in a district there's always this issue and if you notice Steve when he was here on his interview he even at one point said something you know like you know of course then integrating new construction
how difficult it is it is very difficult introducing new construction first of all what does the zoning allow does the zoning allow something that doesn't follow the prevailing pattern of development that dominates in that particular stor
District so that this is a this is a multi-layered type of an answer but it you know there there is you you do re you you do look at new construction under the ordinance but looking at new construction and deciding
what to do with it are really two very different things and it's very very challenging and I can remember when um I represented the city of planfield for 30 planning board for their historic preservation commission they put in a
commission before the state law so that's how long I did it and uh they uh and and and and that's when I first met Gail Hunton who worked with the c m County for so many years and she one of the best
preservation uh you know Consultants that I know so they had the designated historic district and uh there was a peace property that was empty the the developer didn't own it when it had a
building on it the building had fallen down years ago it comes in with a vacant piece property follows the zoning we try to get the historic design guidelines and to like improve the value of it but
but it was this the whole zoning entitlement okay it was putting icing on a cake that didn't fit so that's why much of this all that question goes back to make sure that
when you're in this process of design guidelines and you're helping to working with them that you use that as the opportunity to try to make sure you can Vision what would happen with an empty site like that in an area that's a designated hisor district and it has to
be right you have you know you don't make it up as you go you create the the you it's the framework and the guidelines to help you make those decisions does that help so we just have to be aware when somebody comes in for example and asks
to build on six Spring Street that that this is a consideration that we have her view in in terms of what should go up on that lock you say to me yeah oh I'm sorry yes uh all right well you're saying it's in
a historic district yes so being it's in a historic district even though it's vacant if it comes in for a a an a application for development it's going to be referred here and if it comes here for a permit you're going to be reviewing it in that context because
somebody in City Hall and and and I know you know I think that uh sha you must work like you know 22 hours a day right now so but you do have mounts right so like if you're not around they can't find you
yeah they they have the list so the list that Margery so nicely narrowed down for us they have that in the front desk so my admin she checks that against it one as soon as we get the application so so you that's where and
then you know and then you you work on it there and again this is another great example of a way that if you you become asset to the community by helping them to design something and when you design something and it fits in a neighborhood
and it's attractive people want it they like it is you know it just has tremendous advantages you know so U about the can I chime in real quick on that one can you guys hear me yes wasn't isn't that where it was just a garage on
that site six Spring Street I I I don't know it's vacant now there was an old garage on the corner yeah there for a long time was there a house there as well there were three houses so one was on Spring Street then you had the Corner
Garage then you had two other houses on uh River Road or Front Street there so did they combine Lots they P they purchased all of them eventually and then it was purchased for 1.2 million and then he sold it to Riverview for 5 million a couple years
later after he tore everything down okay I guess what I'm saying is we I think we have to be careful with that one because there was just there was a garage on part of that site it was just a rundown garage not that it wasn't necessarily contributing to that historic area right no but but my but my
comment is that if if they decide to build something in a historic district it it should not be a totally out of style with what's around it I guess my point is that garage wasn't either
though right so anything they do complex but something must have predated the garage it doesn't really matter because now you have a vacant piece property so someone comes in to develop it the design guidelines would hopefully have you'd have combination of two factors
that are going to determine what's going to go there the zoning and the historic design guideline okay everything else is just speculation so to speak there they have some zoning rights whatever they might be and then
how they Implement those zoning rights consistent with preservation is something yet to be determined but just because it might have had a garage or it might have had a ramshackle building or it maybe it had nothing it's vacant and it's in a
historic district it's regulated because that affects whole the original developer had a had a plan that was already presented um and it was basically part of Riverview you know
Hospital building so would not fit within any kind of historic guideline or character so again I I I don't know where it all stands I don't think I don't I I I'm always uncomfortable when somebody
else's property is being discussed they're not here so but all I can say is you've got you know there would be whatever happens in the future with any vacant property that is in a designated district is going to be determined by the zoning and the design
guidelines and you're going to write those guidelines to address some of the things that you might come up with now that would help you later on down the road okay flow chart um I thought that um shaa didn't you have a flow chart I
thought you showed me a flow yes so there is a flow chart look but yeah like I'll send it to you right it just so the flowchart that was created um kind of just breaks down the development per uh permit purposes
um it shows where um what needs a development permit and um what happens if the application is denied and what um like if it needs grading review or it needs AC approval um so it explains that
process and then it explains if someone needs like the fire marshal um permit or permit from the Construction office so but I I'm happy to share that okay so of the the Daniel's law all right so Daniel's law is
something that's under the open public records act um I attended a seminar when the law first came into effect it would have been in 2023 and there were six attorneys who do
all Municipal work and every single one of them had questions differences of opinion Etc it is outside of the realm of historic preservation you it has to do with what somebody can ask to the
town to get names and addresses and information so you need to know where the property is you need to have what it is um I I honestly would have to defer to your town your town attorney because it's I I don't even know if there's any
cases it's not historical well okay the context in which it was brought up at the Saturday session um one of the hbcs that was represented mentioned that because of Daniel's law they are no
longer when uh the public is attending a meeting and uh is recognized we I think have a practice of asking them to give their name and their address and that goes on the record it's
recorded and it's you know I think part of our minutes yeah um and the there is a town that has stopped doing that because of Daniel's law and what they're I think what they're doing is they're only putting basically the property
identification information by block number block and text yeah and not not street address yeah I uh all right so Daniel's law arose out of commercial entities seeking public
records from municipalities that disclosed was like getting a whole address book for marketing purposes okay I I really would I would prefer not to comment about Daniel's law because
it's an open public records act uh issue it is hotly debated those who wish to be extremely cautious don't let anybody disclose anything and it really has to do not with what is said
here but if someone requests the transcript of what they said here the clerk custodian of the records can bleep out or redact the document to eliminate uh certain
identifiers you you know if you don't if you don't need to ask people for their address don't ask for it you don't have to you can say what you name okay well I I in the in the law they talk about covered persons you know and the origin of the laws as it was
explained to us was the judge whose son was murdered yes when somebody came to her house yes so if we're talking about a covered person I think I just to clarify I think that we can at least ask somebody if
they are a resident of Red Bank you could do that yeah I don't think I I just leave it at that so we know if this is somebody who actually lives here or has come in from some other town to comment on something that is going on
here just remember Daniel's law is a limitation on the ability to get certain information through an open public records act request so we keep it in in the context if you you could set up a rule that all you want people to do is
say my name is is is is Jane Jones and I live in Red Bank and that would be fine okay all right the next one is limiting review to what is visible do we find Visible we just say exterior that's all
it it says in our ordinance exterior some ordinances say exterior visible from a public Street your ordance does not say that okay what do what do we have to do to become a certified local government a lot first of all don't even think about
doing it so you have comprehensive desine guidelines you have certain things that you have there you know I'm just going to you've got to take your National register listed properties and get them regulated they're not legally
regulated you only have resolutions for the most important resources in your community so this is the this is the booklet I am going to have it it's the most current booklet from the state uh office it has far less at of Advantage
than it's going to cost you to comply so that you know um well there's currently 43 clgs in state last time somebody quoted that figure to me it was 30 so in the last year or since last
June 13 people 13 municipalities have have gotten that designation um the one thing that that was mentioned is at this point it couldn't hurt and they would be willing
to review our ordinance as a first step because sometimes um they ask for an amendment to our ordinance and if if our ordinance is not acceptable to them um I don't think I mean maybe we shouldn't
pursue it but as a first step I don't think that that's going to take a lot of time to submit our ordinance to Andrea Tingley Andrea Tingley is GNA make that she Andrea Tingley has made the ability of municipalities to F qualified a
certified local government an extremely costly undertaking she does it because she and all I'm going to say this I don't want to get into looking at this right now because I can just tell you that until you have design guidance and until you
have absolute complete surveys for everything that's regulated and even Beyond you're not going to get past Square one if you want to send it to her go right ahead but I I don't recommend that you do so until you have you have a
package to give her okay and she is a she is a I I'll say it in a public meeting she's one of the most difficult people that you'll ever deal with I I didn't get that impression but that could be just me yeah she's difficult believe me
okay so what Financial incentives I think we went over yeah and I think we did demolition I think we have covered that so um you know I think there's always you know there's always a way to strengthen
any ordinance and again it's the political will to do so my experience has been that when the commission has begun to have like acceptance the community okay
that Community recognizes that what you're doing is a valuable component of the maintenance of their quality of life okay and again I think most people that buy historic
homes do it because they love historic homes they don't do it because they want to wreck them I mean there are developers certainly and depends where it is and where the development pressures are but uh you know they don't want to have something stick out like a sore thumb and again you know it's a
there's you know you're you're doing the right thing you proceeded very cautiously to make sure you have a good consultant on board to help you with the design guidelines and that's the most productive process that you could do at this
point and then assembling I know margerie you've been working on assembling information and I you know as I said it was one of the most challenging things that I faced when I first came on board like where did all this come from could you have some very
expansive lists and then you have others and so there's just a lot of of information I have attempted in this book to put together everything that I could find and uh I think that um you
know if there's one thing I would recommend that you do sooner rather than later and I think it would would you know because you already have everything there to do this is as the governing body to
designate the national register listed properties well I think that's one of the things we're going to try and work on this year is move those up from move those up into and take away the TBA for local ordinances um the other thing that I
think just I'll just put it out there um they said that the survey should be repeated every 10 years yeah supposed to update it so in the last time it was done here was 2009 and um so hopefully as part of the
work that Stephen does for us that will establish a basis to go forward and uh you know keep a record of where we are right and so the other thing when you're dealing with the survey because the
survey work can easily end up consuming a large part of the money that you have available every time he wants to do a every time you kind of identify what you want to survey if someone here would
first go to the available data and I understand like Mammoth County my understanding is that they regularly are updating you know they they don't do it like you know full but they they they do a regular update of the survey so you
know look at available resources first and um you know proceed there I the the U the mon County stuff is available online as I understand it
so I think that gets us through all of the questions does anybody have how how are you doing with the design guidelines have you met with the uh not as of yet um I'm waiting till the B's um budget
gets approved so that um I actually have the funds available um for him um and and talking to the CFO and the burrow and manager um the budget if I'm not
incorrect um Christina it looks like May the funds will be available so um Stephen understands that and um and we've been emailing each other back and for their contract purposes and
things like that um we plan to start in in May and he wants to meet with the committee ver so yeah so you but you got a grant for that right yeah but the grant funds haven't been awarded yet because the governor hasn't signed yet
so that's that's another thing so once I have some money for him to start then I can get him to work I don't want an invoice that is going to be held up for like two months yeah I want to get my people paid so we can't even begin the survey
process then until May I just I just don't want him to send an invoice that I can't pay immediately okay because one of his definitions of a survey was
not like the survey of historic places but to survey some stakeholders as what their expectations are for design guidelines and that's where you bring in his community outreach um that again is
built into what he plans to do um as for the architectural survey he actually wanted um once when we do the kickoff meeting to have um like a clearer definition of what the commission wants from
that um so that's another topic for the um when we have the kickoff meeting with them but as a just because I I don't as a former consultant I understand how when you send an invoice and you're
waiting two three months um I I know that's just a pain and it messes with your book so be cautious of our consultant I oh have just wanted to let you know that I'm
deferring him starting until we have some funds for that um whichever it comes first either the grant funding or the budget gets approved but once I have something there for him then um I'll I'll have him start
um are we allowed to communicate with him before that yeah I mean I'm not sure if he's the type of guy that you know bills every time you email him not sure if he's that type of guy but sure you can um communicate with him um but yeah
just just be a little wary of that that when they do send out their invoices they do intense be paid you see this I think it would be new business oh oh in the next meeting yeah well I mean I can comment on it
that but Michelle's so yeah and I just I just want to add also we have 10 minutes left so um of this meeting and then we have to close out to start our regular meeting right Michelle and then I just have to switch
out the um the zoom okay because there's two different links was it smart enough to continue on next one sorry no you hold that for the second me yeah okay this are any more questions or do you just want to take a 10-minute
break or do we want to um adjourn this meeting yeah yes we did the workshop first did the workshop first
dinner sandwiches in there yeah let all right does anyone want to move to J I'll move second um first then second let's have a vote all
in favor all in favor okay all opposed pass thank you um Anthony I sent you a link if you want to join the meeting I sent you another link Zoom link to the next one so you can I'll
sign off this one and on to that one yes okay I'll be back thank you did I just see that packet