okay everybody board of adjustment will come to order this third day of April uh 2025 the time is 6:30 roll call tory present ray Mass here hogan here
sharon Le here vincent Light here paulagna here anna Cruz here amanda Calabano here Eugene Horowitz here and Chris Haven absent okay adequate notice of this meeting has been posted at Burough Hall filed with
the Burough Clerk and mailed to the Edburgh Park President to River Times this meeting is being tape recorded and the in the event the applicant uses the services of recorded reporter to transcribe the tapes the board requires a copy of the transcript we will bring
them about 8:00 PM for deliberation and testimony heard thus far in the conference room on the first floor public is invited to attend however discussion between board members and the public is not permitted at that time no new will be heard after 9:00 p.m the Red
Bank of Adjustment has maintained a policy cut off hour of 9:30 p.m for its hearings any applicant not heard this evening will be carried over to the next scheduled meeting um pledge of allegiance to the flag of United States of America
and to the republic stands nationis and justice for all so we're going to take a vote on the uh Mr chairman uh good evening uh we had a discussion uh over the last several months regarding the uh one globe port
project and um basically uh my understanding of the situation is that the applicant uh previously obtained approval and uh there were uh two issues which have subsequently arisen uh
basically as a result of a change of grade the building was approved I'm sorry was built uh approximately 5 in taller than what was approved and there was a slight uh change to the elevator
tower um but uh initially well as initially thought um that elevator tower issue was going to create a new variance but that has been revised so it's just a a slight deviation Mr mckenna but no new variance that's correct okay and then
with regard to the height um we uh it sounds like per the discussion that uh the board finds that it was a good faith error there was no bad faith uh the board certainly appreciates the fact that the applicants uh stopped building while the process was
um unfolding and the um the request is um that we administratively approve the change uh with the understanding that uh a um no further changes absent further board approval b um all the other uh
remaining terms and conditions of the resolution of approval remain the same and and c the applicant is um going to release and defend and hold formless the burrow uh the zoning board and engineers and
burough engineer board engineer and respective agents representatives employees to be liberally construed just in the unlikely event there's a problem in the future the bureau does not want to invite a lawsuit and uh the other thing underlying this because it's you
know not usual uh uh but the underlying importance of this is that this is not dramatically going to change the appearance it's not dramatically going to uh be known from anyone who's walking down the street and uh so um based upon
those things I believe from some of the board comments that um we would be uh inclined to the board to administratively approve this mr mckenna um thank you for being here tonight you've sort of heard my um halfbaked uh
summation off the top of my head um you're agreeing with those things on behalf of your client okay so Mr chairman we could have a a motion to administer authorize the um improvements that the modifications that we just talked about and with a further
understanding that uh we would notify the burough attorney of this no the burrow engineer of this change somebody like to make a motion to approve this administratively i'll make a motion
all um can I do all in favor or each probably do one by one but I think okay uh I don't think I can vote because the discussion sorry mass yes Hogan yes Ben Euro yes
Sharon Lee yes Vincent light yes Paul I'm gonna to abstain anna Cruz yes and Amanda Kano yes and you yes
okay thank you very much appreciate it have a good night thank you good luck good to see everybody all right administrative matter we have a resolution of approval for uh 30 St nicholas Place mr chairman I got this
out late and I apologize this was a rather straightforward application application to construct an addition at the site and the only uh conditions of note remember this technical variance Shauna was the expansion of a non-conforming structure um triggered by
the fact that the existing lot is 250 ft undersized yes and basically the only uh conditions of note were compliance with all the affordable housing rules and regulations and compliance with Shauna's memo and that the materials for the proposed addition appropriately match
and complement um the existing structure and you recall this was the testimony was the applicant needs more living space because of anticipated growing family so if the board feels comfortable we can adopt that and again I apologize for the delay
i'll make a motion to approve that resolution second yes raymond Mass yes hogan yes yes karen Lee yes vincent Lake yes yes all right
okay next up we have 302 River Road come on come on up okay this is uh the Paduto application and uh let me just state um is there anyone
here who had any questions or comments or concerns regarding the sufficiency of the notice they received all right we don't see any uh you can have a seat show any particular sign that they want you could put that right in the middle
and uh so Shauna and I reviewed the notice and found everything to be in order so it' be my humble opinion that we have jurisdiction to proceed tonight and um Shauna I'm assuming Jackie has zoomed out yes okay so Shauna what we'll do is we swear you in you're a
professional planner and you are the burrow's director of community development do you swear that the information and testimony you're about to provide to the extent you provide any will be the truth of me knowledge cells you got yes all right and then what we're going to do is we're going to mark the uh development permit application
and denial letter dated December 15 2024 that'll be A1 a2 is the intent to proceed dated January 21 2025 a3 are the plans prepared uh by Mark Fitz Simmons dated December 27th
2024 two pages and A4 is the review memorandum from Shauna Ebanks um and let's see i think that's it we don't have anything else so we can
uh what we can do is swear you in when you get situated and you can go back to the microphones and we'll swear you in you could just grab them sit right by the mic oh wow we need to pick you up on for the record
all right so just uh to get this thing going um if you could state both of your names please my name is Paulo bring it right close bring it really close closer my name is Paulo and you
are my wife okay good evening and welcome to the Red Bank Zoning Board if you could just both raise your right hands do you swear that the information and testimony you're about to provide will be the truth the best your knowledge to help you guide okay so let the record reflect that both witnesses
have been sworn and I'm just going to ask you a couple real quick questions to get the ball rolling and then your show so you uh talk about the board about what you want but just are you all the owners of the property yes and how long have you owned it roughly uh probably
over 50 years 50 50 thank you and my understanding is that there's a mixed residential professional use there right now exactly okay and uh do you live at that site yes okay and let's see just to
get some real basic information with regard to the existing home um uh it's twotory correct two story and how many bedrooms four and how many bathrooms three all right and is there dedicated parking for the residential
portion of it or not really i'm sorry i didn't Is there dedicated parking for your home yes okay and how many dedicated parking spaces for your home well I have an office there so I have about a 10 car parking lot okay i mean
is it is it restricted for the for the house well it's combinational okay combo all right and then just All right and just in terms of the existing office roughly is it one story two stories it's a one-story office okay and uh what um
what's the size of it roughly now um no I think it's about 705 square ft okay and then my understanding is that you want to convert that existing office and what type of office was it panel panel
and is it still active or Oh yeah okay okay and uh so you want to convert that to an apartment okay and um and just out of curiosity
um uh it's a one-bedroom apartment that you're converting it to approximately that's what we're looking to do okay and then Mr chairman before I turn it over my understanding and Shauna and the applicants can correct this my understanding is that your proposal was
a convert the office to a one-bedroom apartment and b uh a 362 square foot one-story rear edition um for the living room and uh also 165 foot uh
extension of um I'm sorry a new 165 square foot exterior porch and the fourth element was a 312 square foot rear patio um is that pretty accurate right okay why don't you tell the board
Thank you for that and thank you Mr chairman that's just to get the the basics that we need so why don't you tell the board what you want to do and why and I've been there for you know excessive 50 years have lived there and worked there for that many years um at
some point like everybody you have to think about retirement and our thought was at one point to just sell the house as it is with another use of the home office since it's already
been that way for that many years and beyond before me i didn't I didn't uh start that i came into that or house when we bought it and it was a physician's home office and I purchased it with the understanding that we can
make it into a dental practice there and a home and I actually was before this board for that very purpose at the time i didn't have a clue i didn't know what that required um and I was given the approval to
continue that use and that's how it's been since we uh since we lived there and so now we're at this uh a just this point in our lives where I want to consider retiring and um
in that thought with that thought in mind we proposed or we thought about possibly changing the use of the garage or I should say of my office into a an
apartment and I you know enlisted the uh support of a local architect first of all I wanted to see what it would look like in that scope and how it would look and before I even
made any decision about even coming to the board with it and when we got the plans and we did went through all the that part we then decided to apply for this to see if it would work and I at
the time didn't again thinking that it was a use not permitted meaning my office was a use not permitted in the zone and intense obviously come people coming and going um and have over the last 50 some years uh as well as live
there i thought if nothing else we're changing it back to a more conforming use residential and um never thinking that you know this is an apartment or it's a two family we had considered well
it's a mother daughter we're not getting any younger and um you know at some point we just felt that this would be the possibility and my son got into the discussion with us about it and we um you know came to some
kind of a decision that I would go forward with it and see what would happen that because he he'd be interested in purchasing the home and moving in himself into the home and we can live in the apartment and we could gone back and forth with all these things but
basically we can't do anything until we know that this could happen and That's how we are at this point that's correct um Lord right now the the burrow does not have um and what
I think when um the pados first approached me um regarding converting this office space they were considering an accessory dwelling unit which we do not have um an ordinance for at this time um this
would kind of fall into that line because technically it's not really like a two family if you really think about it um it doesn't have the same amount of bedrooms as the main house the main house is much larger um has a lot more
space um if you think about that um so I would have put this under an accessory dwelling and an attached accessory dwelling unit instead of just a one-bedroom apartment but since we don't have an ordinance for that um I had to put it
under the category of a one-bedroom apartment and you know I I it seemed logical that it could be done and I you know maybe I'm wrong that thought but not knowing the ordinance
and I in discussing this with um the architect who's not here obviously um he you know kind of mentioned to me that in other towns I want to say other towns maybe not here
but other towns have come up with this thought in mind of allowing you know elderly people staying in the property that they either owned and allowing a sibling to purchase the property and
then ultimately live there and uh so he you know he kind of gave me somewhat of an incentive not that I wasn't didn't know the total um you know requirement as as it stands but I
just felt let's give it a a shot see what happens so I mean I sat on this board for over 10 years and I was chairman of that of this board for maybe five and I heard a lot of crazy
applications we didn't based on a lot of things ordinances so you know I just know that you have a power to make a decision one way or the other and you don't want to set a precedent i understand that um but each
application generally is judged by its own merits I think and what we're looking to do or what we were looking to do was not make it into a commercial property that we were going to rent out the space to anybody we felt that we were going to use it for our own benefit
our own use and we like the house we don't want to see it you know I can obviously continue if I don't get it if this doesn't happen I guess I could just say well we can stay there or we could sell it and hope that maybe some other
professional would be interested in purchasing it and using for their business and home but you know I'm not looking to do that at this point so so your intention is not to rent it out to anybody off the street ab:
Absolutely not okay i mean I know that happens i know that people do it i know that people have you know Airbnb stuff and all that that isn't my intention that wouldn't have been my intention anyway i don't frankly want to have anybody living there except myself and
my wife and uh you know if my son ultimately because he already is no longer living in his home he's he's renting right now not that he expects that he's going to move in he might just like the rental life right as opposed to other home so I don't know but at this
point this is what we would like to consider okay any questions from the board yeah i Isn't uh this is sort of a question for everybody isn't Redbank moving towards an ADU ordinance yeah isn't there state
law that sort of pushes us in that direction anyway we're just not there yet that's correct um it's been rumored for six last years that um the state will be making like a mandatory ADU ordinance to help with
affordability throughout the state um so and that's something that um and speaking with the governing body that's that's the big next phase that we want to move towards to um to accommodate those that want to downsize and live in
a more affordable unit so I have a question about the logistics around this will the apartment have separate utilities separate yeah so okay and um in terms of
like if we start approving ADUs um what happens with like post office addresses do they get like an A and a B or that i don't that again is on this post office did the um dentist um office have a separate address no it's the same
so one one mailbox one mailbox that's it well you know I pay everything as my own i pay for utilities like it's 100 right but the apartment will have separate utilities but I mean basically
for our use there's no separate it's it's been done um again like I said that they would have to probably take up with the tax assessor um because they are the ones that assign numbers and all
that um they have that today is it's not me every day No no it's not it's just I know sometimes they'll do like a A or B but um again that's what the tax assessor or whatever the utility company
would be able to Excuse me the first question was do you have separate utilities and I think you said you had separate utilities yes and then you said you didn't have separate no no no no I don't okay i'm sorry i'm just So just one set of utilities one
set of utilities but Sharon I I think the testimony was that if this is approved you will have separate utilities for the one-bedroom apartment is that what I understood well yeah i guess I could do the Oh no i'm I'm not I thought what you said no I don't think so i didn't you weren't looking at it
that way one house my question we haven't thought that far ahead you know as to something we had considered at that point you know your has to be something about well yeah in terms of like ADUs if there
aren't separate utilities then it makes a more compelling argument that is like one household possibly that's true um like I haven't 100% um familiarize myself with all the ADUs I
know each town um for example like Princeton has their own ADU um ordinance um I I want to say Westfield um also came up with their own and everyone is kind of different um so there may be in the state they may say
the utilities have to be one or has to be two but again it it all depends on what um it may be home rule or maybe the the state mandatory language about the utility connections which makes it au or
could be the size it all depends it could be that it has to be detached or attached you know or it could be both or it has to be above um but I know that for this um application they do have um there is not access into the existing
building um they plan to close that off is that correct right so you can't access the main house from the separate but like I said we haven't changed any of the you know divided up utilities i don't have a separate meter i don't have
separate gas everything that I have is all coming out of one you know pretty much one you know central location right now because I've been there no need to change it i mean if this were
a a separate building I guess you would have to do all that if you were changing that i understand it but since it's part of a one structure um unless unless you required
it I really didn't think about that is there you have a separate bathroom in the dental office okay i could do everything in there except maybe take a shower right now i mean we could cook in it but we don't have a kitchen but you what I do basically is everything that
you would do in a home in my own little office space right now the dental office has gas gas i have a gas connection i have electrical you know I use it all so what is the nearest two family to the property what's the nearest two family
property from from this property you know that's a good question i I I don't know i mean if you're going down River Road there may be one or two properties that are used as two family down there on the same street when you get down as far as
prospect I think the zone changes to RB and I don't there's a different requirement in an RB zone or allowance you know RA I think is still pretty much to that location they may not sure who owns There is a Do I need to push this on
there is a um speak to the Speak to the Mic across the street had been a a doctor's office that's true um which now it appears to be um a rental on one side the doctor's office is a rental the house it's very hard to
tell what's going on um but the mailing for us you know to comply with your requirements was sent to an LLC in another town so that appears to be maybe two pe two different things going on in that house and down and another corner
down is a dental office with a an apartment upstairs so different zone i I assume you had to notice for this application have you heard back from any of your neighbors with no issues with Go
ahead good luck to you okay and so what did happen i I did go to the neighbors and they and they said this is great no one said this is a bad idea so I wasn't looking to solicit i was saying did you get it right most of them most
of them are returned so in doing like a quick quick quick um Google search I think this is a proposed bill um for AD AD 80 ad use um that was done in like 2024 it did say
that they would require um separate utilities for ADUs so just went proposed not this is the states yeah so I just did a quick um say anything about forcing them to go on a list for ADUs at that point i've only
done a cursory review because you know I have that space in my house also I think if we call it an ADU I don't want to eventually push them into a situation where like let's say they're not living in it yet and because they are an ADU they're a part of the low-inccome list that that Yeah I know so like for
example Princeton they did restrict their ADUs so if they if you want an ADU you have to deed restrict the that use so it can't be used for anything else because you've now made it a deed restriction it doesn't require them to
go on as No no no they can opt out of all of that yeah they can opt out of it unless something else is per for them to be low income no that that is not a thing but again um some towns do have that that they deed restrict for low
income or they deed restrict for it to be just an accessory or both okay so it'll matter for them later if we have an ordinance because this would um be it would be grandfathered in so this would be be before the the the new law comes in
place so it would be okay um it's just that if there's any change then they'd have to comply with the new mandatory they say anything if they refer to separate utilities in terms of heat or air conditioning would they have to have separate heating systems and separate
air conditioning systems i believe it's only condos condos they wouldn't be able to charge a tenant if their meters were together i don't think they'll be able to meet separately without a separate address i think they need permission at least for us for that accessory and then
the post office and then but again that's all it all could depend on how Red Bank might decide to bring that that may be in some towns but it may not be the requirement here but like I said in this it just says for any utility
connect um connection new or separate um directly to the utilities between the ADO and the utility is required um related to the connection fee and capacity charge so um unless it's being built together like
it's a new single family home being constructed with an ADU but for existing I think you have that separate but that's take off and it's not it hasn't been approved yet this is still being laundered in the air and I think they'll make several more changes
before this even comes on the Senate floor yeah I have a question is I I don't really have a good feel what the building looks like and what the house looks like but if I was in the dental office right now would I be able to access the primary residence like walking down yes so I understand what is
the what why do we have to do anything why why couldn't he if he wanted to make bedrooms down at the end of the and keep a doorway as like a true mother daughter like you had said instead of a separate apartment and going from non-con my my issue really is going from
non-conforming to non-conforming so what's preventing them from creating a mother daughter right now you've got a connected you can probably put looks like two bedrooms down there you can put a bath in you can put a little kitchenet in you have access to your son's family if he moves in or his kids what's preventing them from doing that nothing
it would just be an extension of That would be an extension yeah of the existing house as compared to you change your mind and then we sell it and then someone comes in and wants to rent it and next thing you know we've got a little bit of more activity that's just I'm trying to think i mean applicant can
speak for themselves that they may want that you know or the son may not want 100% access to their parents just walking in through well I mean it would be a lot to our true mother daughter like like you would say it would be a lot it's not a big deal so you know we were
trying to find out what would conform most with you just have to speak into the mic it's not what your wishes as we went through this but it's once they mention a separate apartment that's what triggers it for me
it sounds like to me that they could make a true mother daughter if they wanted to without any involvement from zoning the the issue that we may have is that should they sell it someone can just block that door and we wouldn't know about it because um single family
homes aren't inspected like how regular family homes are so you can have someone at any time that decides to put up a wall and therefore no one would know well they'd be operating in a legal house then right so then you know in
that situation you their neighbors would call code we've got we have to change zoning because we're worried about in the future of someone after the Paduto sell the house going to come in and put a full wall up i think that's looking at a little bit more than
we have to personally if I was going to sell the house you know I wouldn't go through all this itself right now i would look to sell it as a home office right professionally that's what I would be doing but the home office isn't
permitted and that's still considered that what it is and shouldn't create any problem through somebody coming in when I bought that property the real estate agent told me only because at the time I think it was and I don't know why they did that
but apparently the owner of the property at the time had some issues with the town and they weren't going to let him just sell it outright as a home office they were going to make that person go to the zoning board to have it which didn't make sense but I didn't know that
i wasn't even aware of it and I think the real estate agent that we had at the time also didn't think of it but when they said that you may have to have somebody approve this do you still want to buy the house you know so it's question at that time was for us was
maybe not you know but I went to the zoning anyway and so in this situation here I got on the board and and you're on the board too not nice by the you know the uh
attorney for the board at the time they said no you got to go to the board so my question is if the do sell it right now as is it they could the non-conforming use transfers over to the new owner and they could still operate an attorney's office or a dental office yeah it was
approved as as they said they had they got board approval so it's it's now a legal use because they the use was now waved even though was not permitted in the zone um but they received a use variance for it um which then makes it
now permitted even though it's non-conforming but yeah yeah you know and be honest with you I think if if we did sell it to my son which would make it a lot easier frankly um although I don't know if I want him
to live there story um you know it would be a lot easier that way than me trying to sell it to somebody and live in the apartment i wouldn't do that i wouldn't want to live there in the apartment and have somebody own that property right i have a question to Paul's point
um considering the scale of the house and I built plenty of houses with two and three kitchens does the burrow allow a second kitchen and a house this size because I notic there's you know in the new proposed plans there's um you know I see a gas range which I'm assuming is a gas range and a shower where there isn't
one now could they do the additions construction code that's a construction code question because it I can't write single family homes are rarely regulated so putting in a second kitchen that's why the whole you always think that
somebody else is going to change it into an illegal apartment so it's kind of always best if we have somebody that wants to turn it into a then we have like the the two um but that's a code question of whether or not you're allowed to have the two
kitchens um in a single family home people do that i'm just saying they do it or not they do we're not looking to do that okay any other questions i just have a comment i think this is a really
good reuse of an existing building u I would be very positive towards it um I kind of I hear what Paul is saying but I sort of feel like that's going to leave you in a a limbo situation that wouldn't really be comfortable should you want to
sell that property or you know things i think getting it approved as essentially a two family or a house with a one-bedroom apartment attached would be cleaner uh for you and would be better I think ultimately for the town
uh to have it clearly delineated um you know since we are headed towards ADUs we're not there yet so it's not going to be approved as an ADU but you know it's in the spirit of an ADU I think you know in and I would be enthusiastic about
approving it i just want to say that I'm still in questions any Anybody from the board have any questions further questions for No questions at all okay anybody from the public have any questions for this applicant got to ask
question any other comments from the board any comments from the public i don't see any uh somebody like to make a motion to either approve or deny this
can I just ask Sean one question just one question just in terms of assume for the moment and I have no idea how the vote's going to go but if this application is approved because I know there was some testimony about mother daughter and two family i mean just what
is being I would say what I would my question is what would the board want to Okay buy ads the used ads because first of all does Red Bank allow mother daughter i mean probably it's either a one family or a two family and then just
typically a mother daughter is something where there has to be internal connection between the two and you can't have a separate entrance so I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page because it sounds like that's where they're heading to but or no I mean it sounds like that they're not heading i
mean that's what I'm like they're heading i mean would this be a two family home would it be I mean is that what does the board feel like well okay i mean I just want to make sure that that would be the determination of the board if they haven't decided what which way they're going to go they're just
feeling us out and we don't have a hard and fast rule for what we want them to do either um we're waiting for a law or an ordinance to come through right but the board can't do the zoning board does not
do informal meetings so it's either you have to make a decision on what the use is going to be either you want this to be a one family uh you could categoricize it as a ADU
or it's it's the determination of the board i mean just what would the options be obviously a two family or two family oh one single family home i don't even know how you put that single family home
but I know it's different zones on Washington Street there's added apartments and the house is put on the apartment that's the two family well those are typically the non-conforming two family they're they're non-conforming two family you know to me
it it sounds like personally speaking you can accomplish what you told us you wanted to accomplish by not even coming to us by doing the renovation i think it's premature because there is this ADU coming down we're trying to figure out how do we squeeze it in before it comes down do we want to squeeze it in before
it comes down we're going to get a set of guidelines from the state don't we want um this project to be compliant with the state law that's coming that we've been waiting for so I think it's premature i don't it doesn't sound like there's a sense of urgency to what you're doing maybe I'm wrong it sounds like they can accomplish the things
without any hardship of what their actual goal is that's just my feeling on it i totally appreciate and have one day a dream of doing exactly what you're doing with my children um whether they'll have me I don't know but uh I think it's premature quite quite
frankly yeah i I've been been on this board now for I don't know 18 plus years and I've never turned a single family into a two family so I I don't know what what we need to do with that i would say
not I I would more or less agree with Paul though like it's still a single it's a single family they're adding I don't know cuz like I'm going to Long Island one of my friends has that and it's a single family home but they just have mother daughter
connecting i don't know put it as a two family i don't I don't think they want to see yeah see that's that's the problem is they want to close off the connection and that then creates a two
family so a dead fault i think it's a much cleaner option and it's the way things are headed it's and I think they're propos what they're proposing is exactly
what ADUs are meant to be right for people like them to stay in town and not sell their house and who knows what happens to it if they sell well Asbur's ADU law is different from Montlair's ADU law and from they're very different
and what again it's not they're not projecting that they want to do any of those things as I see it right I I think it's premature as well i just think well I I don't think we can say you know because
we don't have the law yet and we don't know how this will fit with the law that you know I think we can approve this variance to make it a two family house uh whether it then looks like an ADU
down the road or not you know it I don't know that that matters i also think we're we're defining mother daughter as having a connecting door i'm not even sure that is a real definition uh that you know I I think we're getting in the
weeds on that and there's a very simple proposal in front of us i mean I' I'd like to approve it uh if I don't know if we're ready to make that motion yet um and take a vote but I would certainly not tangle this up in laws that haven't
been drafted yet and uh where whereas what you know what they're proposing I think fits nicely in the neighborhood it's a less intensive use than there now and provides another home uh which is a
positive in my view yes so so your suggestion is that we approve a two family Yes conversion to a two family yeah i I agree with everything Ann just said said it way better than I would
have uh my concern with saying it's premature is who knows how long it'll be till it's mature right right uh it could be like an hour from now or 30 years from now and like you said we have something in front of us
now does it make sense so nothing more to elaborate but I agree with everything you said can I ask why just for us why we're doing the I mean the use I think like with an I would I would approve I mean I think it's good what they're doing but
we're the ones deciding what it's it is the because you're I mean it's not for interpret they're not asking for an interpretation of their I don't know if I can say I like you
know what it is I just how to end it as I said before you know you got to judge each application on its own merits and you're going to make it very standard and follow through on what you think this is going to come
then you know you're sticking by that rule and rag that's it you're not going to think about anything else you have to think about well these people want to stay in that house some way somehow i can still do that without all the
changes i can stay in the house without changing the office i could retire there and that space won't get used if I don't if I ought not to use it what I was thinking of doing was something that we thought would make it
functionally similar than what we have now except that we could actually live there so do I want to necessarily live in my office i don't know i'm just saying all right i work there all the time and I have worked there for over 50
years i don't know if I want to lay in that bed in that office after I've treated people in the same place you know it may not feel so great that's just you know me only but at the same
time I think I don't know i think you have to look at it from not just a strict rule of array that you follow by your ordinances i think sometimes you have that's what a zoning board is all about you give relief where it's possible so somebody else may come in with the
same application or maybe not they may do it without you even coming to here to have it done right um well I don't know i just think that we're trying to follow what the town says and just asking for that relief
maybe that thought sean I have a question if we define it as a two family there's nothing stopping it from being a rental in the future no you know so even though the intent is this now right it's then a two family home when it be sold as a two family home list and and forever on as it's you know there it'll
be the resolution says well would would you need again to have two addresses it would then be a two family home with two separate addresses and utilities and everything mailboxes two mailboxes and everything it's it's not it's no longer just the convenient mother daughter
which I do define as a door in between to a larger structure and a smaller structure but a two family home would be then in an RA district a two family home there's no changing it from now it could be sold 100 times
I guess I have a question about that um if we approve this as a two family but they share utilities Is doesn't that conflict you can't charge them like you can't say $500 it's not so your utilities would be
in your rent at that point they don't have to charge specifically yeah all included if they didn't meter separately but they can meter separately now that they have it's two family two addresses they can meter every utility separately because there will be
technically two families just to be clear your proposal does not have separate utilities no it doesn't there always was under one roof with one unit one heating system one electrical system you know air
conditioning separately but because they were really were located but still all the sources were you know from one location to change all that I might as well just knock the house down start all over i can't see how you could rewire
repl and and expected to be affordable what any future renter you know wouldn't be able to have separate utilities not for your instance that that I can't answer that question because I don't think you know I'll be here i probably wouldn't even be
here anyway but that's They don't make the other thing I was just saying thinking about and you know I don't know whether you would already entertain it but if you deed restrict it to a mother daughter meaning that it's the same
family that owns the property that rents to a son or a sibling or you know something like that and lets that person live in that apartment even though it's still connected there because we didn't knock the door out or
we didn't close at all i think that's a way to handle something like this in a different way without really changing your you know whole ordinance to address
it just something to think about i don't sure about this a couple of things just to start from the beginning again so in some towns that do allow mother daughters so a lot of towns whatever reason it's not that they
don't like two family homes but they recognize the sometimes some zoning issues with with two family homes in zones that do not permit it so a lot of times if you do have a traditional mother daughter structure the um I mean obviously there's a lot of great reasons
for it you know you want the parents to be able to help the kids you want the kids to be able to help the parents you want everyone to have a little bit of a sense of privacy um but some towns do not like calling it two family homes and so in that situation and I'm not saying that's good or bad or should be or
should not be but in that situation the key distinction is usually they have an ordinance to town that'll say one you can't have a separate entrance because they don't want it to look like a separate second home and two you have to have an internal connection because they
want it to be that um they know the parents know or the child knows that just in the middle of the night he or she could wake up and just walk into the kitchen and and make coffee or get something to eat and the theory is you would not let a stranger a third party in there unless they were a family
member because you don't want someone coming into the middle your bedroom or your your thing so that has always been the big source of the issue is there going to be an internal connection or not and um and then does Redbank have a definition of a mother daughter they did
not have a definition however thank God for Google um it does define mother daughter as um as Kevin stated um they have a shared entrance that
splits off into two living rooms two bathrooms two two so the same of everything um but if Redbank doesn't have a definition then it's not permitted i was going to say we can't approve something that's not defined correct other than if you put the
condition in there that there has to be an internal connection or there's not i think that's the the issue now the other thing is if you know if there is no if there is separate you know uh it's distinct you can't go from one to the other it's a two family home and there's
nothing necessarily wrong with that if that's what you all want and I think the important thing is to know that if that's what you want then you just have to know that it's not going to be at some point you're not going to own the property at some point your son might not you might move to Florida and that's
okay but but And to ask another question if we have a two family home are we allowed to stipulate that there has to be a connection between the two no I don't think you can you cannot have a connection between so then we can't talk about having a mother daughter with any connection well right i mean it would be
without the I mean it would be uh we don't have a mother daughter no but if if if you as a condition of the just say as a condition of approval you said that there has to be an internal connection i mean how can we do that if we want to approve a two family well if you want if you want to approve a two family then
you don't do that but if if we can approve a mother daughter because it's not well it's it's it's it would be a single family home that has you know the mother daughter unit but it's not a mother daughter if we wanted to go that route we would just follow Paul's suggestion and make this a renovation if
if that's what we don't have jurisdiction right but that Well I'm just I'm just I'm saying two kitchens two bathrooms like said that you know that's typically not allowed they would have to remove the
entrance the new entrance that's created they'd have to remove that door um they'd have to re kind of reconfigure their um their their
plans their elevation um in order for it to to work honestly I wouldn't feel I know from a code um from code enforcement and maybe even from the construction and fire marshall they would not feel comfortable with
something like that because we do have a problem in Red Bank um it's a consistent problem now where we're seeing that people are creating these units illegally not even units but just these bedrooms like for example yesterday the
um code inspector showed me um a bedroom in a closet and it was um and it was a closet that had a on a second it it had a slope so it was barely actually it was a short-term
rental too um it was illegal short-term rental and they were renting a room where the roof when it slope was in a closet you could see clearly the closet um shelving the shelving still like in
the the iron um for the shelving still there and the bed is in there um that is definitely an issue we do see and with two families you are um unless you sell it as like two
separate um like uh for sale homes um instead of rentals then you wouldn't have to register but if it's some like you're renting for a tenant you do have to do the tenant registration so what would you suggest I cannot suggest
assign the board as zoning officer i learned that recently i can't you can't you can't Mr chairman what I would say is the not and we've all been using the terms interchangeably and it's probably not appropriate but the the notice says they want to use the applicant is
seeking renovation of dental office into two familym apartment and any all other variances so I think you're probably going to have to specify what exactly it is you want whether it's a two family house or whether you just want to have uh your house where you have a room for
your child to stay um which probably is we don't have jurisdiction i mean we don't have to grant relief for that it's um if it's not We don't have an ordinance on mother daughter though well it would be it would just be right i wouldn't call it a mother daughter would just be they going to make it a
two family home or they're just going to renovate their home so that their child can live with them um but I mean that's I think we don't have in just a couple years ago in Middletown I went a private application and not that it's relevant at all but Middletown does not have a
mother daughter they say it's a one family or two family but they do make you you know sign something but again those deed restrictions are much more uh judicially criticized and and it's they don't want to distinguish between family members and friends and it's uninforceable and hard to enforce so I
think Mr chairman we just if if they're applying for a two family home and you all feel comfortable you approve it or you don't approve it um but that that's I think that's the leave it up to them well I think they have to tell us what they're applying for in that sense
respectfully i before you say that you're speaking to the microphone quick question it would seem um not logical to me to allow a family to say sleep where we're talking about and not have an exit to have to go back through in case of a fire they would have to go back through
the house and find another way out i mean that that doesn't sound logical that there can't be an outside exit from that space well there can be if you make it a two family home so that's what we're saying it it needs to it's up to
you if you want to apply for this as a two family home are you sure that the what you're reading says there cannot be an outside exit and I think it's the the main entrance because it's it's the main entrance you're creating two main
entrance which look which now looks like two apartment two two houses like the two family what if it was just a side entrance to if it was a side entrance it would be fine so I think if they maybe move the door to the side and they can have a back door side entrance right now
I have two rear actually I have three rear entrances i have two office entrances from the back uh and one going excuse me into the house in addition we added back door to the
house but when we first moved there the back door to the house was going through the waiting office uh from the office into the house through the doorway that's still presently there that's how we got in and out of the house from the
back but we can move the doorway that's not a problem and Shauna would we still out of curiosity retain jurisdiction um because it's a non-conforming use but it technically they're now abandoning the nonconforming use of the okay and now
just being disabled family i would not close it if you can't approve it based on design there the back door that goes into this property because that was what was added on to make it first of all uh
square footage wise big enough to be considered a a floor area the door was basically for our use to go in and out of so we weren't going through the house to get out as it as if
my son was living there i wouldn't be wanting to walk through his into his house and out the back door every time I wanted to go out i don't think we have to use the the Google definition of a mother daughter i agree with them about this that their separate entrance we don't have a definition of
mother daughter we don't use one so we could create one where I agree with them that if they it's the same house it's the same utilities we can have a separate entrance because because it doesn't exist right now if we were going to approve an accessory dwelling unit and had to define it or if we were going
to approve a mother daughter and have to define it why couldn't we define their separate interests as allowable i guess what you're defining is would be stipulated in the resolution because that's pretty much restricting what they're allowed to do with the property
so they can withdraw their application if they decide that they want to leave the entrance and they just want to do that's them withdrawing their application so it's not voting we wouldn't vote they can withdraw their application and renovate and renovate
i'm not going to go through this you got to speak into the mic i'm sorry if you don't want to approve it based on what we submitted and and I can't understand why um that's just my and there's no way I want to come
back here with another plan that you're going to knock out to say it's probably not what we want because we're not allowing two families in a in an RA zone or whatever it is two family
um that not what that's never been what we thought it would be even when I first thought about it this wasn't considered even though yes we're separate from my son in that sense but they all grew up there he grew up there they all grew up
in that house um did we ever live there together probably when he first before he bought the house he's not in now but one of the house he was in he lived with us and had his first child there so I guess that
was like the same thing you know we had the two family then in the same house not permanently obviously um the door that's presently used to go in and out of the office is still there
the only thing I do so that for sake of having it uh secure I have a lock that locks the door so you can't go in and out but the door is still there would I close the door off not if it created a
problem like this where we're saying "Oh now you're going to make it into two separate another apartment." I wouldn't do that i'd leave the door but the plan as it is what you propose has a the the door closed off so I guess the board is just making
decision right now i guess to simplify it are you guys approving this apartment as a two as a two family i want to make one more plea for
something i if we don't if we approve it as a two family there's a legal structure there you know yes it could be sold it could be a rental all that is true if we leave it in this gray area it seems like we're opening the door to an
illegal use I think Shauna said this earlier I really don't like that idea at all I think that's pretty dreadful to sort of nudge someone towards what could down
on the road not by the applicants um but by someone else as you know an illegal unregistered apartment i I just cannot see that as a positive i think two family houses are great you know I really think they're a wonderful when I
was born my family lived in a two family in Verona New Jersey um there's it's a great way to live it's a it's something in between a private house and an apartment and you know I think it's positive i think it fits on River Road i I would love to see us approve this as a
two family and give it a legal structure and uh that's it i I I think I'm done now and then Ann yes what we have done in other situations if the board was inclined to approve the two family is
you typically have a condition that does no further expansion or intensification absent further approval of the board so that's that's always implied i think that's a condition and everything um but yeah I mean but like I said I just I just think we have to whatever we're whatever is being applied for whatever
being approved whatever the resolution is going to say I just want the board members to make a fully informed decision so that we're all in the same saying this is a single family home or it's a two family home i think that's clearcut and to that I think if we were not clear that would be cause
also cause great confusion for everybody in the future so clarity on this is if you if you do the way Shauna was saying if it's built just like that you don't change it it's two it's it can be a two family if he you know because this is
what they want they want it this way so that would class come under a two family but if you don't do that you if you want it the other way you have to change the plans that's what you're saying you have to resubmit to me he'd withdraw his application feed submit revised
plans showing the door connection between the two okay so these plans show that the choice is a two family okay and again if we call this a two family that means if it's it can be sold as a two
family and the anticipation of the per people purchasing would assume that they had separate utilities separate electric so two families could occupy that they don't have to have separate utilities it would be a rental they could be sold and would be a rental apartment it doesn't
have to have separate utilities so it could be only it could only have one owner a two family couldn't be sold it wouldn't be sold as like two as two units condom condominium you would charge them more in rent to cover selling a house with a rental unit like
it could be included in the rent yeah people do that all the time all the time i know it happens all the time no it's legal we're just trying to make it legal here it's legal to do it that way there's nothing illegal about putting utilities in the rent okay all right uh
you know it's not even an issue if we do approve a two family I just want to be clear that the notice was explicit that this was an approval for a two family i wouldn't want a neighbor to suddenly be upset that a two family was then approved in their neighborhood the
notice says the applicant is seeking renovation of dental office into two family/motherdaughter apartment those are contradictions two family or mother daughter by by our definition that that's what I'm struggling with what am
I approving a definition of mother daughter there's no legal definition of mother daughter in red but mother daughter is in the notice so if we don't have it then the resolution would clarify what it is the two
families here's the thing from a from a notice standpoint I would be concerned if it didn't say two family um whether that that's not I mean because that is what would capture most people's attention if if they had a concern um and um yes it is there is some nuances
there and some distinctions which is why I mean the initial point was I think whatever the application is whatever it is you're going to approve or deny and whatever the resolution we all have to be specific because to do so would just create lots of headaches for everybody later on so you either you know you
approve or deny a two family home um that that's what the prop unless they're going to change now the to the applicants I would say one last thing just real briefly so you need a use variance if you're applying for a two family home and a use variance has some strict legal burdens and there's some
special rules that apply to a use variance and you probably remember this from your from your time on the board but technically only uh seven members of the board vote on a use variance application and the law says that you need affirmative five yes votes to pass
so unlike most other things where majority wins in this situation it's a super majority of five you need five of seven votes i just want that has nothing to do with you or this application it's just New Jersey law i've got a a question if we approve the
usage of a two family then the usage of a dentist office or professional would be abandoned does that happen when they start doing the work as soon as this resolution is memorialized right Kevin well typically we we would ask the
question are you gonna as a condition are you officially abandoning that and typically we'd say just in case sometimes we say the work's not going to be done for a year and so we could fashion it however you wanted um but typically we would say you know as soon
as you pull the permits yeah you the permits yeah it's abandoned news quite hear you Shauna into the microphone what was your answer to that question when does Oh I said that the use would be abandoned so once at the point of when you pull permits is now abandoned so
once the work begin if I get the if you were to approve this then I can't work anymore no no no you can still work that's what I That's what I thought yeah no you could still work in your office i
do up until you decide right until you decide to pull permit that's right yeah abandon the use that is is now there because now you you're no longer using it for the purpose that was originally approved
yeah i remember probably cloud that we used to approve things and if they didn't enact the approval within a certain time frame yeah whatever it was 45 days or kept that number kept
coming up but I don't think that's enough time but you could dismiss it without treasures in other words they'd have to come back start all over this whole thing your our resolution usually says two years or yeah typically two
years so if you do not pull the permits within two years or the agreed upon extension or yes any extension then you're then it reverts back to the um single family home with a um office
professional office still so if we sell the house to my son in six months your approval is still there house not to us it's attached to the property yes okay okay that's all we want you know it's those questions that you have trouble
with we have trouble okay thank you so I guess we've decided that we're looking at it make making a motion to either approve or deny this application as a
two family home would anybody like to make that motion i'll make that motion right and I think that that use is a lot less um intense intense than the current use so I will
second hands and just real briefly just if the application is to be approved the conditions of approval would typically include and we might need to clarify the mayor it would be compliance with all the promises commitments and
representations that that team made tonight it would be compliance with Shauna's review memorandum uh compliance with all affordable housing applicable affordable housing rules regulations contributions um uh to the extent necessary outside approvals a 24-month time frame uh
permits uh you know necessary building and construction permits when all the work was completed we would need a certification confirming that the work was completed in accordance with the approved plans in accordance with your testimony and accordance with resolution obviously we would need a certificate of
occupancy before any occupancy and no further expansion or intensification of the uh two family home absent further approval of the board um and then we had
uh let's see um we would have that if the application is approved we just talked about in conjunction with uh pulling of building permits you would be perpetually and knowingly and officially abandoning that pre that the prior approval that you got in terms of having
the house there with the office um just one thing for the board members are we making sure that there's at least two dedicated parking spaces for the the um the other units yeah so it it actually be four four total for
two two for the two units two each okay and um Okay um and then we talked about um I don't think it sounds like we're not making anything about separate utilities you said whether they do that
or don't do that got it um we always make sure that the tax assessor will obtain a copy of of the resolution and um we're not talking about any um deed
restrictions um and we talked about changing in side entrance i'm assuming that's all off the table and uh no deed restriction we're crossing a lot of um and obviously construction with the I mean compliance
with the construction code and building code so um if the application is approved are you okay with those standard conditions you speaking to the mic please i guess I am yes i'm sorry speaking to the mic is
radical but I Yes pretty much yeah okay well do you need time to think about it standard it's Yeah okay all right so um anyway so now the hard part goes to the
board in terms of uh there was a motion uh are those conditions acceptable to the motioner and the seconder yes yes okay well I think when you've come up with a final resolution if there's any concerns Mr paduto has at that time we
can we would send you a draft copy of the resolution i appreciate Sure anor yes ray Mass yes eileen Hogan yes benuro yes sharon Lee yes vincent Light yes
paulo uh no okay that is one two three four five six six yes in favor of the application okay thank you for your good luck thank you
sorry for all the confusion but it's not something we run into on a regular basis so it's kind of a tough one still the same old saying okay anybody need a break have a good day move on
okay next we have 50 Hilltop Terrace okay and um Mr chairman I can assure you this applicant is not seeking a two family home or a mother daughter so what we're going to do is um just for uh recordeping purposes is there anyone
here who had any questions or comments or concerns regarding the suspiciency of the notice seeing none uh Sean and I reviewed the notice and found everything to be in order so it be my opinion that we have jurisdiction to proceed uh Shauna Ebanks you are a professional
planner you are the bureau's director of community development do you swear that the information and testimony you're about to provide to the extent you provide any will be the truth to best your knowledge to help you guide yes thank you and we will mark into the record what we as a board have before us a1 is the development per permit
application and denial letter dated December 2nd 2024 a2 is the intent to proceed January 9th 2025 a3 is the survey prepared by Frank Dantis dated April 27th 2016 a4 are the uh plans
prepared by Jacqueline floor of Ingenuity Infrastructure and that's dated January 17 2025 three sheets and A5 is the review memorandum from Shauna Ebang dated April 2nd 2025 so uh good
evening welcome thank you for waiting if you could just state your name and then we'll swear you in okay do you swear that the information and testimony you're about to provide will be the truth the best of your knowledge to help you guide yes okay and just real quickly um we're talking about the property at 50 Hilltop Terrace are
you the owner of that property i am and how long have you owned it roughly five years six years and my notes suggest that there's a single family home at the site correct and do you live there yes okay and do you have a garage now no okay so why don't you tell the board uh
exactly what it is you're looking to do and what variance relief you need sure um so looking to extend an existing bedroom above the existing bedroom but that's not really probably good for the variance um adding a single car garage on the side of the house the property is laid out such that it's not possible to
have it side facing it would need to be front facing in order for it to house a car uh just generally speaking you can kind of see wouldn't be able to get a car into that garage on the side without driving over my neighbor's property um the properties on Hilltop Terrace um
there are seven out of 10 properties that all have front-facing garages on that we face the water reservoir so there are no properties that would see the front of the garage um in addition anyone walking or driving by the garage would be obstructed by the trees and or
plants in the way um so it wouldn't present any sort of an eyesore to anyone um in terms of moving around else on the property if you're familiar at all with Hilltop terrace it is a steep slope hill so there isn't really any place else to put it other than on the side of the
house so that's kind of why it's there um I have images of the other front facing garages if you'd like to see them but it's pretty straightforward i'd like to add the garage it would help in terms of keeping the car inside during the snow snow removal again it is a steep hill so it kind of presents a problem
we're moving snow trying to get in and out so that would be a big help and that's really it i have a question um tree removal are you removing any or is that space clear already everything is complete i'm sorry about that no there
there will be no tree removal the space is open space at this point are there any uh setback issues uh thank you sure and just for the record one more
question sorry same question have your neighbors come and talk to you about this does anybody said they hate it or wasn't they welcome down your show i think it's what we call hearsay but the notices were all delivered to
everybody it's a it's a very small again for those who are familiar it's a little subset i didn't even know there was very close and just for the record is it an attached or detached attached attached
any question from the board any questions from the public question what's the size of the garage uh typical car so I think it's 15 by 20 or thereabouts and there's no water or anything like
that in the organis i make a motion to approve it a second and then Mr chair some of the conditions with typical would be compliance with the promise and representations compliance with any affordable housing obligations contributions compliance with Shauna's report 24 month shelf life
if you get the approval you have to pull the building permits within 24 months and agreed upon um certification or with an agreed upon extension upon completion you'll certify or your builder will certify that it's been approved or installed in accordance with the approved plans and the testimony and the
resolution uh so no living space in the garage uh correct correct and we also have just a few more um uh oh just for the record the garage is 390
ft 390 square ft and then uh no tree removal and then uh the no utilities in the garage except the um electricity and just Shauna just uh for the record so
there was the the garage there was the extension of the second floor balcony correct and um and then extension of a second floor bedroom all right no specific variance relief is required with that got it
so Paul are those acceptable to you yes and do okay with you those conditions okay and are those conditions acceptable to you thank you an Tory yes ray Max yes eileen Hobbit
yes yes lee yes vincent Lake yes paul yes i just want to say it was like after your sister was getting yelled at sitting down motion to adjurnn motion moved second
all in favor i thank you you know I know more but that is an intense the first one it is an intense you know discussion about you know the family home from mother daughters and and and like you know what it just saying it applicants probably don't realize it but it is a
very intense little discussion