Okay. All right. Good evening everyone. Uh welcome to the Wednesday uh May 14th, 2025 uh meeting of the city of River Affordable Housing Trust Fund Board. Uh my name is Joe Graalisi. I serve as chair of the board uh on behalf of Mayor Patrick Keefe. So we'll begin with a
roll call of the members. So I am president Nioaki present. Matt Wilford let me know that he is on a train back from New York on a business trip. Was hoping to make it in person, but if not, he was going to dial in, but I don't see him yet, so he's not
here that yet. Um, Deb Frank also let me know that she's not going to be able to make it today. Lori Manzo, present. Leila Petri, present. Dean Harris, present. Terrific. And then as we know sadly uh Claire served her final meeting
last month with the affordable housing and trust fund board. So she's rolled off and I didn't have the chance to state this because I missed the last meeting. Um but thank you to Claire for everything you do, everything you've done for the board, continue to do. Um it's been invaluable and greatly
appreciated. Um we're going to start as we always do with a check-in on uh the finances for the board. So we'll turn that over to the treasurer and IO. Sure. Good evening, good afternoon everyone. Uh the current balance the affordable housing trust committee as provided to me by Asuta Newton who is the assistant
budget director is 95,420 sorry 900 105,4205 that's 905420.25 25. Uh, this is an due to an annual appropriation from Freecast of $222,634. That's
224 634 or 222634. Great. Thank you very much. Um, I had kind of membership matters as my next agenda item and we're going to roll those. I uh we have a potential uh new member going through the process of
being confirmed. Uh so um she'll be appearing before the appointment subcommittee. So uh that's not happening for this meeting, but hopefully for the next one. So we look forward to that. Um and then he's not uh present at the moment. Um so I may postpone this as
well, but uh I was going to nominate Matt to take um Clara's role as vice chair uh based on some conversations that we had about some of his financial, you know, background and ability to really help us with that aspect of it. Uh but if anyone else is interested in
serving in that capacity, you know, be happy to have that conversation with you as well. But I'm going to move that we postpone that discussion till next month. And if we want to discuss in the interim, you know, if anyone has any suggestions or thoughts on the matter, let me know. But any objection to postponing uh membership matters until
next month? No. Speaking of Matt, I see that he is in our Zoom reading room, so I think we've got him. Matt, sorry to hear that. Your train got delayed back to Boston. Yeah, I think Oh, that's right. We've got him. One, two,
here. All right, Matt, we've got you. Can you hear us? Yep. Hey, sorry for being late. No worries. Sorry about your uh train delays. Uh so what you've missed so far was just the the updated balance from an IO. Um and then also our membership
matters, our swearing in of a new member and discussing the vice chair nomination we're going to push to next month if that's okay with you. Uh just so that we can all be here um in person for that. Um any objections to either of those matters? No. Okay. So moving on.
Uh, a couple things that we want to make sure that we touch on and then I don't want to leave our guests waiting too long, but these should be pretty quick. Um, I want to pick up our subcommittees on home ownership and fundraising and schedule meetings of those subcommittees um for ideally next week, although I do
know we're kind of coming up on a holiday. Um, if I reached out to everybody uh on each subcommittee about finding time for a call like next week, are there days that immediately stand out for anyone that you definitely can't do? Okay. So, I'll send around a few
different options, but we'd love to kind of get those on the agenda for next week. Um, in particular on the home ownership side, there's two things, and this will fit into our budget framework conversation, which, um, you know, Matt will be joining us remotely for, and I'll talk through a
little bit. Um, the two big projects that we really want to seek our teeth into are, um, subsidized home ownership opportunities, right? home ownership opportunities for V residents and then also any work that we might do on um ADU
um ADU support like a loan program or a grant program for ADUs um with a restriction that they be rented out at below market rate right at the affordable price. Um, so I definitely want us to kind of start really putting the wheels in motion for that a little
bit. Um, and to help get us into that mindset of what we're able to do and what's realistic, I want to talk a little bit through a multi-year budget framework that um, Matt was nice enough to put together for us. And I'm going to just share a screen and share it with
everybody and send around to everyone. So, hold on one second. Let me make sure that my testing before the meeting um still works. Hold on. Okay. So, that might be a little bit
blurry for the TV viewers, so we apologize for that. Uh but for those that have it at your um at your screen, you can see um with the support of an IO as the treasurer, we put together uh what we know in terms of what we have in the
account, what we receive for inflows and what our projected possible outflows are. Um both things that we've theoretically done, things that we could do um and what we anticipate gaining in
interest, right? So we look at where the fund sits now at $97,553 is that somewhere somewhere in that range uh between interest acred and what we received as an allocation for the year. Um and then if we look out
kind of moving forward um we already know that we've agreed to expend a certain amount on down payment assistance grants for first-time home buyers. Uh so that's calculated into the assumptions and then things that we put
as um possibilities that I want to bring to everyone's um attention to discuss is the possibility of providing support for the 110 ocean project via the neighborhood developers which we're going to talk about next. Um as well as a senior home
repairs program which if we were to operate that it would be funded separately. So we'd get additional funding from the city for that if it gets approved. Uh but if we assume that we do those things or even if we don't um this helps us kind of get a sense of
what we have left. Um and what I would kind of propose that we think about for as a framework is we'd want to maintain some sort of minimum buffer like we don't want to spend the entirety of the balance in a given year. Uh but we want to begin putting what we have towards
really our major goals. And when I think about what our major goals are, we went through this goal setting process. We talked about how we wanted to prioritize the many, many, many things that we want to do in the world of affordable housing with the knowledge that, you know, we have a limited budget. Um, and I think
loud and clear, right, it was emphasized that our primary goal um is promoting affordable home ownership opportunities. That kind of came across as number one. Um, I think when you look at what we have available for future years, I would say that that's where we'd want to put the
bulk, right, of what we have left over for the budget. Um, and then we'd want to figure out what's a reasonable amount to put towards ADUs. I think could be kind of that second big bucket. And then the third should be something that really focuses on our lowest income or
you know um people in that 0% to 20% AMI range extremely low income you know um people that are at risk of homelessness or that may be coming out of homelessness where um you know that might not be the biggest piece of our
budget but I think it should be part of it right we all kind of agreed that we want to try to help across the spectrum as the best as we can um with kind of those being our focus areas. So, I wanted to lay this out just to help us kind of understand what the picture looked like.
You know, I think this this is a little confusing, but I think if you kind of look at it as we know we we can anticipate that each year we're going to receive a roughly, you know, $200ish th,000 allocation from the city for free cash. We certainly hope that we can find
new revenue sources in the future. So through like potentially the community preservation act or through, you know, if there's any inclusionary zoning or anything like that that would allow us to get a consistent flow of revenue or through private fundraising, which I know is something that we've explored
and talked about, uh, or through partnership with something like a community land trust, which is something that we're going to talk about as well. Um, but hopefully these numbers can help just sort of set a frame when we think about when I start throwing numbers at you for projects. um help you kind of
understand a little bit uh of where we sit. Um I'm going to send this to everybody um so you can take a look at it. But before I take it down off the screen, does anyone have any questions about like what you're looking at? Okay. Um, and again, like I said, to me, to be
clear, we haven't voted on um like neighborhood developers proposal. We haven't voted on the senior home repairs project yet. These are in theory, but I just want to make sure we're kind of thinking about them in theory. And now, when you think about what we have sort of free to commit for
projects for this year, um, this is up to us, right? This is a collective decision. This isn't my decision. This isn't your decision. Uh, but I'd like to kind of propose that we think about a buffer of around $350,000 that we'd want to keep in case we get emergency
requests, you know, or to have something that we want to build on and is building interest in the future. Um, I wouldn't want to spend the whole account down this year, right? But and then if we if we keep a certain buffer, that leaves us about $557,000 free to commit towards other
projects. um assuming we also do the other ones that are that are listed. Uh and what we need to kind of decide upon is how we want to break that down in terms of ADUs, home ownership opportunities, other ideas that people
have had, etc. Um does that make sense? Is that kind of I hope I'm not kind of speaking, you know, confusingly. Hopefully that makes sense to everybody. Um yeah. Right. Yeah. Um I think I don't think
that they heard you on Yeah. So I think the $300,000 R350 having a reserve makes sense. uh especially at these interest rates, you'll be generating some sort of interest to maybe,200 a month by the numbers that you had up there um over a year period and then you can put that
money back out there. If you have like an ADU program, let's say you were going to offer5 to $10,000 per household to create an ADU in their home, which would benefit someone that's uh low income, it just makes sense to be able to do it.
Great. Um, and so I know that the initial conversations we had about home ownership and ADU programs were kind of more hypothetical and we have to get them into the actual and part of that I want to do in the subcommittee. But I do want to actually bring up because I it's it's timely. It's something that's come
up in conversation um with Tom who can't be here tonight but passes along his greetings. Um, you know, one option that we have, I know we talked about the idea of putting out sort of a call to people that are potentially purchasing properties in
Rivier and offering to subsidize one of the units, right? Like if it's a two family or three family or four family um in exchange for restricting it as affordable, as an affordable home ownership opportunity. That's still something I want to explore. And um Matt
has been kind of doing some market analysis looking into the delta between affordable price and market rate price to help us see what would be a reasonable amount to offer to try to entice that. Uh but we do potentially have another opportunity sooner than that uh that I
wanted to explore with everybody and get people's thoughts on. Um without going too much into the details yet, um there are a number of properties in the city that have deed restrictions on them that um actually were originally created by
the Malden Redevelopment Authority. Um and for reasons that I'm still trying to ascertain, at some point they were transferred to the city of Ravier um ear like early in the 21st century. Uh, and there are a number of people that own these deedestricted properties
that may at some point be coming up on being interested in selling them. Uh, and the deed specifically spells out that the city actually has right of first refusal and the opportunity to to purchase these properties first, you know, before they go to market. Uh, and
you know, the conversation that I'd want to have with everybody is if one of these became available, you know, it would present an opportunity for us to purchase it at the deedestricted affordable price, which depending on the property, you know,
could be somewhere between 290 to $350,000ish from the ones that I've seen. Um, and then we'd be able to potentially, you know, sell it to a river resident that is 80% or below AMI for their household. Um, as an
affordable home ownership opportunity. And in theory, it wouldn't cost us much of anything because it would be sold, you know, for the same price that we bought it for roughly. There would be some costs associated for us in terms of like ensuring that everything is code compliant and any, you know, realtor
fees or other things that are associated with that. Um, so I would imagine the cost wouldn't be zero, but it would be close, right? I think that, um, I wanted to get people's thoughts like the downside of doing it this way is that
technically this is already a property that's in the subsidized housing inventory. So, we wouldn't really be adding to the subsidized housing inventory. Um but we'd be ensuring you know that we could have a fair transparent process with the rever resident um preference which wouldn't
necessarily be the case if it was sort of on the open market. Um and we might be able to just kind of more have a little bit more control over the process. Um and we'd be able to take over kind of more properly monitoring um
these deed restricted properties via the affordable housing trust fund. whereas right now it's kind of in this nebulous area where the city is the monitor, but that's that was never really, you know, recorded in any particular place. Um, I know I threw a lot of information at
you. I'd love to just kind of open it up. I don't want to get into specifics of specific properties because these are individuals and it's their right as to whether they'd want to sell them or not. Um, but I wanted to get people's thoughts on exploring that possibility.
um if one of the holders of these properties did elect to sell them. Um okay, and this week the Massachusetts and 8 is um uh looking for the amendment for the budget. So we have to be aware what is
the final disposition for a for these cases. uh they have different amendments may be affected to us for the they have amendments for the first time home buyers a foreclosure prevention they have a housing first responders
restoration they have Massachusetts healthy homes program and all this week will be the final position so we'll be uh after that maybe we uh could uh
answer for uh from the senate that are for all the cities especially for us. So let's see after that what are we get it for the from the amendments this week for different programs that we are going to do it for the 45 house.
Thank you. It's a good point. Obviously we all um anticipate learning more about that once that process completes. So thank you. Others have thoughts on sort of this as a concept for home ownership promotion. I have a quick question in regards to how you're able to identify
properties that have deed restrictions. So, uh, from what I understand, there's this registry, the Middle Sex South Registry deeds. Is that, um, accessible site? And also, how automated is this? I know you cannot, you know, I guess the laborious process of finding what's
available in the market in terms of being what's available to sell and then you would probably cross-check that with the registry. Is there a flag of sorts? So, I think you bring up a really good point and I think there's two separate things that we'd want to think about doing, you know. So, one is the monitoring side and I think that Claire's actually done some work on this
and so I I probably want to, you know, drag her right back in front of us as a guest to uh in terms of tracking kind of what's on the subsidized housing inventory and monitoring the things that are, you know, kind of putting some of that monitoring responsibility under the
purview of the affordable housing trust is a really good idea and we want to do that and we can we can do that. Um but what I speak of, you know, with this kind of concept is actually when the owner is electing to
sell. Um so we wouldn't necessarily be like solicit, you know, soliciting them to do that. Uh but when they do choose to sell, they are legally required um to notify the city because the city has the right to exercise its right of first refusal on the property. Um and I want
to be prepared for, you know, I have reason to believe based on conversations I've had that a few of these might come that might happen soon for a couple of these properties. Um, and if it did, I'd want to just, you know, know if that's something that we'd be interested in, if we think it would be, you know, fit within our goals and things that we
wanted to do. Um, obviously before we did anything, we'd have to meet as a group and talk about the particulars of that property and whether we thought it made sense and different aspects of it. But, you know, I wanted to make sure I'm explaining the concept clearly, too. like if people kind of get what I'm
talking about, what that means, any anyone need certain terms defined or anything like that? So, so my thoughts are that if it's a wash, you purchase the property, um, and are able to sell it, I believe, within 120 days, uh, I think you mentioned to
me earlier, um, without the trust losing any money in in that time frame. And the opportunity is to, um, give a resident that leg up on having a an affordable first-time home buyer experience, then I think it's a good thing to do. If the h
if the trust ends up losing money on the deal, even if it's, you know, 10,000 or 15,000, um, then I think that's something we have to look at a little bit more carefully. Those are my own thoughts. Thank you. And part of what I'm going to research soon is what we think some of
those associated costs would be. Um, and I would expect to report that back to everybody kind of ASAP. Any other thoughts, questions? and include the uh members of the public that are here as well. If they have any thoughts, comments, questions on similar
programs like this, feel free. If not, no, no pressure, but I I saw you nodded along, so I didn't know if you Are they all single family homes? Uh we had a question if they were all single family homes. No. Uh my understanding is that some of them are, but some of them are in condos, some of
them are duplexes, triplexes, etc. Uh so there's a mix. I think one critical question Yeah. Yeah. He's going to tell you to go up to the post. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, I was just noting that if
residents live there and there might be some risk of displacement, that might be a a mission fit for the trust, but also noting that if if whether the property is vacant or occupied, um, could also have, you know, responsibilities for maintenance and, etc. that that you'd want to consider. Yeah, you bring up a
really good point, which is actually something else that I want us to sink into as well. So, the good thing, uh, for these particular deed restrictions is that it's an owner occupancy requirement. So these are all owned and occupied by the person who bought it at an affordable price like they qualified
for the program. Um and it would be that owner that would be looking to sell you know at the current affordable price. Thank you for Yeah. Um, but I do I am quite certain that there probably are other deed restricted properties that are being rented out that you know we
don't necessar that we as a trust might not know about but there might be an opportunity for us to get involved there and and do do some of that work that you mentioned to prevent displacement. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Other questions, comments on this topic before we move
forward? Okay. All right. Well, thank you for your patience. I know we've got a pretty packed agenda today, so wanted to kind of work through some of these things. Um, and we will sink our teeth further into the home ownership piece, especially on the subcommittee. Um, and report back. Uh, so we're going to move
forward now to uh the ne our guests from the neighborhood developers. Um, so you all had heard previously about a proposal they had for a project at 110 um, Ocean Nav and where we might fit in to provide some support for this project. Uh they also sent around a
presentation in advance which you all should have had a chance to read and digest a bit. So I trust that you all did that that if you have um but we're going to have our guests here walk through the presentation and then leave a chance for us to ask questions at the end. So come on
down. And now you already know where the microphone is and that you have to turn it on. So and let me just learn how to press the button. Okay. And I'm gonna
maximize presentation here. All right. Okay. At your leisure. Great. Hold on. Did I already go to the Is that Is this page one? I don't. Okay. I think so. I think there might be one before that.
That is perfect. Okay, perfect. All right, great. Um, well, good evening. I'm Steve Lefer. I'm the director of real estate at TND. It's good to be back in front of you. Thanks for having me again. Um, and we're here to talk about 110 uh Ocean. So, I'll try to be brief
because we talked about it a few months ago. Um, but it's a site that's currently owned by North Suffach Community Services. Um, obviously they're a nonprofit. They're currently serving eight residents there. Seven in a group living environment and one in an apartment. Um, and the building's sort
of reaching the end of its useful life and as you know there's a lot of development in that area. So they were thinking a few years ago about how they uh maximize their mission and their impact at that site. Um, and they reached out to us and we've imagined um sort of a redevelopment and that kind of
um is based on you know our shared histories and service. Um yeah, you guys are familiar with North Suffach Community Services. They provide treatment and recovery services to to individuals and families in uh River, Chelsea, East Boston, and Winthrop. Um we've worked together for a
long time. We have 11 homes um that are set aside for residents who are eligible for through for services through DMH uh through them as well as other people who happen to live in our properties who have services there. Um and and we collaborate in a bunch of other ways
too. Go to the next slide, please. Um we're also a nonprofit as you know in Chelsea Everett in River. Um we kind of do three things. Uh mainly our connect program um helps people achieve sustainable living wages um and financial health. Our community building
program is really focused in the Shirley A neighborhood supports residents in strengthening leadership skills and taking action to improve community. Um and obviously in um the real estate realm we uh build, create, preserve affordable homes. Uh we have
approximately 775 affordable homes across Chelsea Ever and Revier. Um with 66 homes under construction in Chelsea right now. Uh next slide, please. Um again, I think you're all familiar with the site. Um it's uh at a
really great location across the foot bridge from the Garfield Middle School um near the ocean near the Shirley A Cultural District near the River Beach uh TA Station near MGH. Um next slide
please. Um the site is in the flood plane um as is our 571 River site. So we're really focused in general on creating great homes and that means uh focusing on sustainability and resiliency. So it is designed um to meet
pass to be certified as passive house. Um we should actually very soon be getting our our kind of um passive h passive house prescertification which means that it'll be certified that if built as designed it will achieve passive house certification. Um it's an
it will be all electric. Um, so heat, hot water, AC, all electric, no gas. Um, seven stories, uh, under 70 feet. Um, part of that is using cross laminated timber for the floor and ceiling assemblies, which helps save on some
space. Um, and we've elevated the building and and everything other than sort of parking entrance space out of the flood zone. Um, you can kind of see that in this first floor plan. Um it the first floor is is mostly parking and a lobby
and then can move over the second floor. Uh the second floor we've we've started to call the north suffk floor. We'll be recreating that group living environment and have actually adding a a small amount of capacity. So there'll be eight um it'll serve eight individuals and
there'll also be a 5,000 foot office there for Nor SUFFK ACCS team, adult clinical and community services team. They're the folks they're uh the folks who provide services to people living in community based settings. Um so um it'll really be a benefit right now. I think
they're in kind of a variety of spaces and don't have as much of that collaboration space as they'd like. So this will be a great opportunity um to consolidate those services and and make them more efficient. Uh we can head upstairs and then uh you can see sort of the next
five stories have more um of your traditional sort of family affordable housing. 48 family units in addition to the eight group living environment units. So 56 homes total. Um and they're really focused on deep affordability. I think that's that third goal that you mentioned Joe. Um half of the units are
set aside for folks at 30% AMI with some type of operating support. So it's really that 0 to 30% AMI band. And then the other 28 units, the other half are at 50% AMI, which I think is pretty unique. I think we've made the case to EOHLC that um the generally uh
affordable housing of this case is aimed at 60% AMI. Um and the way median incomes have increased substantially over the last five or six years. Um and we haven't seen that same substantial increase in median incomes in our community. Um, so we've really made the argument to them that that to be
affordable to rever residents, it needs to be on a deeper level than what they're funding in most other communities. So I think that's a pretty unique feature of this project. Um, so covering up lease up, you know, we have to comply with fair housing law. I mean, I think you guys referenced this earlier. We'll uh we'll
do marketing for 90 days as we normally do. You guys will certainly hear about it multiple places. Uh, we'll then have a lottery. um the eight group living environment folks um will be obviously supported through DMH and we'll also give uh a preference for folks who are
displaced by the development, the seven individuals who are there now to be able to move back if they'd like to. And then we also have 12 additional one-bedrooms that are set aside um through the facilities consolidation fund for folks who are eligible for for services through DMH, the department of mental
health. Um there'll also be uh sort of referral we have four um it's a sort of unique uh co era program called ARP home ARP um units that'll be set aside for qualified populations um that again these are the deep affordable um units
um and then uh we'll have the maximum uh local preference for the units that are not this direct referral for 70% uh rever residents and that'll cover the the deeply affordable family housing units. It's all of well all of the family housing units. Um
uh so this is sources and uses. Um it's uh this is the sources uses as of when we submitted this two or three weeks ago. Um and you'll notice at the very bottom there's about a $2.5 million gap. Um and coming to the River Housing Trust
tonight is a part of of trying to fill that gap. Um, so if you go to the next slide, we're obviously asking the River Housing Trust uh for $250,000, which is about 10% of the gap. Um we have uh applied to the department of uh uh DOER
the department of energy resources um for a decarbonization grant that's available for projects that are uh that is for the first time available to new construction projects but has funded rehab projects in the past that are affordable um that are and that are energy efficient and that are um not
having carbon uh in the building. So we applied for that. We should hear by the end of the month. We're supposed to hear earlier this month. Um, we applied, we got a positive vote this morning from the North Suburban Home Consortium for $1.1 million of the home art funds. Um, and we've been talking to the state
about additional state low-inccome housing tax credits. So, this is really uh the state is also aware that we're asking you guys for this. And so this really helps us leverage um the NSC money that we got this morning, the money we've been talking to the state about um and that DOER money, close that
gap and let us start construction late summer, early fall. Um and that's kind of a summary of the timeline so far. Um yeah, so we've been working at this for about two years now. Um, and uh, and like I said, we're
we're working toward an August or September construction start. Awesome. Thank you very much for that. Um, so I want to open it up to questions from board members. I thought it I don't really have a question. I just thought it was quite thorough. Thank you for writing this
early. Um I think it's an outstanding opportunity. 56 units as you suggested as you mentioned before and the variety of different uh housing to different family sizes and I do like the opportunities for like non bike or sort
of non-car you know you can bike there you can walk there and from what I understand it's pretty accessible to the tea so you could walk to the blue line if need be. So I don't really have any um questions. I just uh I appreciate the opportunity that you provided us to present this. I think is pretty
outstanding. Thank you. And one thing I do want to clarify for everyone, um, so the the ask is for $250,000, uh, but this can be broken up over the course of three fiscal years. Is that correct? Yeah, there's some flexibility here. I mean, we will need to sign loan
documents for that amount, you know, in order to start construction. Um, we don't necessarily need that money on on day one. So, if you know there's other competing priorities that need that money immediately, you know, like I said, we have a two-year construction period as long as it's getting in sort of in that window. I guess the only
thing I would add to that is if if it's more about having a cushion, you know, the earlier this is in, that means the less of a construction loan we're borrowing, so we're not paying interest on that. Um, so we can be very flexible. But I yeah those are I guess the I think
from a trust standpoint you know my thought and I'd want to open this up to f first of all I want to echo and I's thoughts you know thank you for the for the presentation uh and also that you know this serves a really particular need that I think is really important for the community I love that 50% AMI
you know case is really important you know I do think that that's a real gap in affordable housing um you know in the in the community um and appreciate that that's something that that that's on your mind and this is something that's going to serve a lot of needs. So, we appreciate that. I think you know my my
thought uh upon looking at this upon looking at how again this is an opportunity for us to have our funds be leveraged by larger funding sources, you know, state funding sources, other outside entities, um but still fit it within our budget. you know, if we think about it as a
three-year investment, if if we if we were to authorize investing $250,000 into this and spread that out to, you know, about around 83,000, you know, per fiscal year for three years. Um when you think about that budget framework that
we looked at earlier in the day um and think about where you know 80,000 or so to support people in that extremely low income range fits within our you know we don't have unlimited money to tackle every priority. But we really were
thinking about okay $150,000 each for a few different home ownership projects. You know maybe $75,000 for a senior home repairs project. Um, and then where this would fit in within the budget, you know, over a few years in terms of supporting, you know, those that are in the extremely
low income range. I think that it's something that we can do. I think it fits in really well with our priorities and with our budget. Uh, and I I highly recommend it. So, I I want to make sure that people have a chance to ask their questions. Um, but just so you know, you
know, my my thought is this is exactly the type of thing that we should be supporting. And uh after looking over our budget, you know, I think it's something that fits within if we were if we were to approve this request contingent on spreading it out over three fiscal years, I would highly recommend that to the board. I do I do
have one question. It's due at they want to finish this in 2027. So what's that? I thought they want to have this completed by 2027 or 2025. If we were to piece it out by three, would it disrupt their financing
or is the question I mean I think 2025, 2026 and 2027 would work is the question whether essentially I didn't want to disrupt any payment or financing flows if we're let's say we this is an
agreement. I'm fully in support of it just to show my card. Uh, is a threeyear allocation disruptive to the necessities of your loan or any of that sort of thing? No, like I said, I mean, the most critical point is we'll need to, you know, sign loan documents and have that
money, you know, really committed in in that way. Um, you know, as we're closing on the rest of our construction financing in August, September, um, if the if the funds if some of the funds aren't available, you know, we'll be in construction for about two years. So if some of them aren't available until
2027, we can work with that. Thank you. I have a question. What is about the 20 households supported by DMH have referral process? What is mean? Sorry, can you say the last part? I
caught the 20 households. Yes. Supported by DMH have referral process. Oh, have a referral process. So um because those units um are set aside for clients who are are supported uh who are eligible for services through DMH, they would
they don't go through the lottery process that the rest of the 56 units go from. There's sort of a direct referral process from DH. Um that's that's what that is referring to. So when you say this passes directly, this is mean not
necessarily they have to be revealed resident, right? Um yes. Yeah. So, no one has to be a River resident. The other ones that go through the lottery, the other 36 units would have se we would apply to HLC and we've always gotten the maximum of 70% local
preference. Um, I can't speak exactly to how the DH process works, but I mean I think that their referral process is again looking at needs obviously, but also looking at sort of who's already in the area, you know. Uh, um, so I think that there's there's certainly not the
70% local preference that goes through the lottery. just a different process. Um but I think they are mindful of of you know wanting to keep people um where they're getting their services and where their communities are. But okay, the
things about the how ownership here we are working is strictly with the people from Rivia. So we want to keep it on the same way. the most people coming from our residents. That's the principal point
for the affordable housing trust fund. We try to look at the budget and everything is for the priority priorityizes our residents. Yeah. So, I mean, I think we're we're going to do the maximum that we can to make sure that we're serving people who are already in River. If you're having a
project that's state funded, whether it's uh rental or home ownership, you're never going to get a requirement that everyone is a Rivier resident. So, we'll work within that framework to to to have the absolute best that we can. And obviously, when the people move into
this building, they become Rivier residents, too. Yeah. So, one thing I would add to that, and I I appreciate you bringing it up. You know, I think that it's a good way for us to think about um the pros and cons of the different ways we try to leverage the funds that we have, right? Um for
instance, with the with the 133 Salem Street, you know, we put in a relatively small sum of money, but we were able to leverage a larger state uh pool of money by doing that. Uh and so that allowed us to support more affordable units. uh you know where a portion of them have a residency
preference right but not all because under housing law right it can't be 100% residency preference it's 70% is the maximum that's allowable the flip side is if we fully control a process right like if if the unit is fully paid for by
us we fully control that process which is great and I want us I want us to explore opportunities to do that but that means we're paying the full cost of every unit, right? So, 300, 400, 500,000, you know, per unit of affordable housing. Uh, I think, you
know, um, this is just one person's opinion. We need to kind of use both avenues. Um I think that we certainly don't have the revenue you know as a board to only go down the avenue of investing in units where you know we are purchasing the entirety of the cost of
it and therefore we have complete creative control uh for lack of a better term on kind of how the funds and how the units are used but we should do some of that because I think it's important uh but I also think that it's important for us to take advantage of opportunities that we have you know to
leverage state funding to leverage private funing funding to leverage, you know, nonprofit support um and to support folks in the extremely low income range, you know, where u the maximum amount possible would have that that resident preference. So, I I really appreciate you bringing that up
though and and that's completely valid. I know I noticed that Dean had questions or comments as well. One of them was already asked, did the you know, splitting up the down payment of or the money of of 83,000 a year for three years, would that work? And so, that that's been answered. What's the total
number of units over there? 56. So approximately 20some units would go to River residents. Yeah. Um so there's the 36 units that aren't the DMH units. 70% of that would
have a preference for res over 20. So by by contributing 250,000 um we'd be contributing to uh housing over 20 um river residents in affordable housing
um and 56 units total in affordable housing and and I thought as a a trust we were we were okay with you know putting up I think 250,000 for one condominium that would help one family there. So, the bang for your buck to be able to put up, you know, 250,000 and then unlock all those affordable units.
Um, and and granted it's not 100% rea I think that's great. I also think that there's a number of um REI residents that do have AHVP, MRVP, DMH vouchers in the city that that um a lot
of people aren't aware of and and I'm sure that those people would be um anxious to get in line um and be referred over to nice brand new building on the beach as well. Um so I'm all for this project. Yeah, if I may add sort of two things. So there are eight residents who are in the process of temporarily or
or permanently relocating. That choice is up to them, but they have the right to return and they're part of that 20. So those are River residents who um are probably going to temporarily leave the community and may come back. So I'd add that there. And I'll just share a quick anecdote. Um so we finished a project in Chelsea uh that has both rental and home
ownership. Uh they have six it has six home ownership uh units. So that has a 70% local preference of four were preference for for Chelsea residents. one of the uh folks who bought one of the other two units is was actually formerly a resident of our 571 Rivier affordable rental housing project here
in Rivier. So, it's a great example that this is really kind of a regional problem and we we really believe in the local preference. We want to do as much as we can to have this building serve Rivier residents, but there's a there's a benefit to all of our communities when we're doing when we're thinking sort of reg regionally and we're creating a little
bit that that isn't, you know, fully committed to one community. So, and I would add another thing that really resonates to me about this um is that um you know in particular if you think of the address of exactly where this is located and the dynamics of you know I
think all of the new construction that is kind of in that area has zero affordability you know component you know the zero affordable units and I think any of them I might be wrong about that but I think that's the case um we can't go back and change that you know past but we can help contribute to the
um socioeconomic diversity of that neighborhood which really it is a neighborhood right now right the kind of ocean a waterfront square whatever you want to call it kind of area um at a range of incomes and so I think that that's something that's that's really valuable um and happy to to be
supportive of it other questions comments feedback yeah so uh I always like to give people as much time as possible to deliberate and, you know, answer questions. Although, I think being mindful of
construction timeline. I would like to propose um a motion that we approve this $250,000 um funding spread out over three fiscal years. Um and I would ask if we could if I could get a second to a vote. Great.
Um so, all in favor? I I Any opposed? And I see Matt's in favor as well. Any opposed? Okay, seeing none. So, um I will work with you and with the treasurer on the, you know, exact nature of how that will
go. Uh but definitely really appreciate the presentation and um grateful to everyone that we have the opportunity to support this project. Thank you. Great. Well, thank you for your support and for all the work you guys are doing too. I've got one more. How how's it how can we follow the progress after this? Like
uh is there a website or just to see how you guys are doing because I'm actually quite interested in it. I think it's a really cool and as Dean mentioned the bang for your buck is outstanding for so how would we continue the follow along the progress? Yeah, that's a great question. Uh we have not done so yet but
before construction starts we'll have a meeting uh with neighbors and we'll establish a a list where we'll send out um regular updates usually about once a month or so. So, I can I don't I don't know if I have all of your email addresses, but I can certainly uh coordinate with Joe um to make sure that
you all have the opportunity to get on that list. Thank you so much. That'd be great. Don't worry. I'm going to make you come back and do updates each year over the course of the three years. So, yeah, that's fine. Happy happy to do that. Terrific. All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Okay. Thank you. And so, really grateful for everyone's patience. I know we've had a bit of a, you know, we're coming up on an hour, but I do want to make sure that we have a chance to talk to uh Laura Christopher and Harry Smith. I know we've thrown around the term community land trust, community land trust, community land trust over the
past few months, and every time I've said, I don't want to go too deep into the weeds of this because Laura is like really like gung-ho about this and has a lot of thoughts on it. And we're so excited and so proud and so happy that you just came back from maternity leave. So, hooray. Congratul
Congratulations. Um, and we're excited to have you back uh back to work, but obviously super excited to hear that everything's going well at home. Uh, but we have Laura here in person and we have Harry Smith here virtually. And Laura, if you want to come up, um, I will share
the presentation that you sent me and we're going to talk a little bit about Community Land Trust. So, let me do that. And why don't you introduce yourself to those who don't know you while I pull this up? Okay. Awesome. Thanks for having me here at the uh trust fund board. I know some of you um
from working around Shirley a and being able to to talk about these issues before and I thank you for your early leadership on helping us um begin to frame the research questions we might have around community land trust and I'm looking forward to speaking uh to
speaking more with you all about it. I just want to step back to introduce myself. Um because sometimes even the folks I've met, you don't know what are we doing here. You just sort of meet me and we start talking about stuff. So I'm Laura Christopher. I'm with a state agency called Mass Development and I'm
working in Rivier as part of a three-year commitment to the Shirley neighborhood through a program called the Transformative Development Initiative. Um, the T-word's kind of scary, but what it means is we want to help that neighborhood, any neighborhood we're working in, transform according to
the trajectory and the projections that that they that they hold tight. And in Revier, that that goes part and parcel with thinking about livable communities and the way the trust fund is. Um, and so as part of that work, we have convened a partnership. but includes the
neighborhood developers, the city, women encouraging empowerment, mass general, and we're tackling different community priorities. Um over the course of the years, we have different resources from mass development to bring to bear on neighborhood challenges. One um that's
named Harry Smith today is we have a program called TDI technical assistance where we can bring in experts to help the neighborhood um and the city uh as often these are citywide challenges that are felt at a neighborhood level study different solutions. So, um, before
really introducing Harry to talk about, uh, the ways in which Mass Development's TDI program might partner with the trust fund and the city and neighborhood partners to look at CLT as a as a possible vehicle. I just want to also frame up that we're here as a partner in
the city for this and and potential partnerships beyond. Um, and I'll just share a little what came to mind even hearing about your annual priorities. Um, so of course we can could we help investigate or um kick the tires on a CLT type of model? We're definitely
happy to do that. We also have been convening a new Shirley A neighborhood association that has in its sites um a goal to convene sort of a lender roundt and a way to work with local lenders on loan pools. Um made me think of your ADU
potential programming. And then we are working with Mass Housing Partnership together with City of Revier in a program to support um business owners who own their site developing housing on site that can help to stabilize those businesses in the community and build wealth locally. So potentially some of
those small to midscale development that we're talking about could be supported through that. But that's all context. So so you know, don't think on one trick pony. TDI is here to help with sort of any of uh the strategies that pop out to you guys. But we're really here to talk
CLT um tonight. And so I want to introduce Harry Smith as a consultant we're working with topic area expert. All right. Harry's here virtually. So I'll just feel free to take it away and we'll just hear your voice booming through the speakers here. Thanks Harry. But I don't look like the Wizard of Oz,
right? I'm not on a giant screen or Nope. Just just the slideshow. Uh although I will maybe ask you to just let me know if you have it open when you want me to page ahead to the next page. Sure. I'll do that. Thank you. Thank you, Laura, and thank you, Joe, and thanks for having I want to thank the
portable housing trust fund for having us here. Um, so you know, just to follow up on on what Laura said, I've um a little bit about myself, I've been a longtime um Boston resident, uh, lived
in Jamaica Plane since, uh, the early 90s and have been a community organizer at different community development corporations and, uh, including Jamaica Plane, NDC, uh, and also working in, um, East Boston and public housing and all
around, you know, community trying to take more control and having more voice around development and what they're doing. So, I've worked with public housing residents, um co-op residents, um and also uh renters and and um limited equity
homeowners. Um my most recent experience was as the director of the Dudley Street Neighborhood Initiative's Community Land Trust in Roxberry and Dorchester, which is um which is a model that we'll talk a little bit about. We're not going to be able to go into great de detail, but uh
but want to just want to just um you know frame that a little bit. And for the last six years or so, I've been working with emerging land trusts across Boston area and in other communities, including um helping the city of Somerville and this and Chelsea and
Brockton uh form community land trusts over the past several years. And I was very excited to to get call from Laura and um and have this opportunity just to follow up on the river housing production plan and the fact that there's a one of the strategies talks
about exploring the land trust model. Um so this the first couple of slides are just straight out of the housing production plan. Uh give a very good intro into what is a what is a community land trust. Uh essentially in the in the
land trust model, the land trust uh is a community-based organization that's governed by a majority of local residents who hold the rights to the land and then and then work either with a private devel private developer, nonprofit developer or in some cases
develop themselves. that they develop housing and other uses that is then uh in a home ownership situation sold to uh uh low or moderate income homeowner. Um and so if you go to the next slide,
um the a couple of examples of that locally, one is as what I mentioned, the Dudley Street Neighbor Initiative, which has about 235, um homes now on uh on its land trust in addition to uh community gardens, uh 2
acres of urban farms, uh uh community space, nonprofit space on about 30 acres in uh Roxbury in Dorchester. And then another example, Worcester Common Ground, CLT, um is another community land trust that um that operates there.
There are about eight land trusts in the Boston area that are up and running and have some form of project. So, it's definitely been growing over the past uh 5 to 10 years. Um, and so I guess, you know, looking at why I'm here and what
what I was called in for, um, with with Mass Development and TDI, they have asked me to to come in and help facilitate a process to explore whether a community land trust um, could be established in REI or whether whether the conditions are right, whether there
are better vehicles to kind of uh, accomplish the same goals. uh and you know, so we're not here saying, "Oh, it's going to definitely be a community land trust," but we wanted to just have an open process with uh housing
advocates and city officials and community nonprofit leaders, other residents in the, you know, and and others who want to participate. So, we wanted to come obviously to the affordable housing trust fund because of the work you guys are doing. um and really just want to start a process over
the next couple months of of analyzing what are the opportunities, what are the challenges, what does it look like in um in Revier. Um and um so that is that's kind of what we're going to be looking
to do. Um if you look at the next slide, um there's there's just a bunch of questions that we would be asking of folks. Um, and uh, you know, what role could a CLT play? How would the community be involved? Um, how does this further your
housing production plan? Um, how does the CLT relate to other organizations like TND or other nonprofit or for-profit developers or community groups? I know in Chelsea the Chelsea um CLT has had a close relationship with
TND who's given them a lot of advice and kind of free technical support and also has has given them good good um just cautions about where they should start and and they're starting similar to the conversation you guys are having here. They've started with looking really
focusing on low-income home ownership, which is something that the CDC's do, but land trusts often um will play that role where there there might be a gap where you can really provide um permanent affordable home ownership to
lower income residents um and um and really stay with those homes and really provide long-term stewardship and support to those families. Um, so that's these are the kinds of questions we'd be looking at. You know, is it all of River? Would it be a part of Revier?
Where did you want to prioritize? Um, and frankly, are there other models or strategies that housing advocates could use? Again, we're we're not coming in pushing the land trust model. I've had a lot of experience with land trust and other models. I will say that the model
is extremely flexible and has it's grown in popularity in part because of its um flexibility in terms of goals also in in terms of being able to partner with CDC's and other nonprofits or other developers where the land trust would
own the land but bringing in a developer with more capacity who could actually get the project moving forward. Um, so a lot of questions on the table. Um, there are more more questions to come. We don't have all of the answers tonight
obviously, but just wanted to give you a brief overview. And then finally, the last slide is just what we're hoping to do over the next couple of months um into the summer is um is uh convene both convene a planning committee of
residents and advocates and other stakeholders and also start doing one-on-one interviews with key stakeholders. I had a really good conversation with Joe a while back and and he had a list of here's some five or six other people you should definitely talk to, but we want to we want to get that gap going now. So, we're really
open to suggestions of who we should pull into this process. At some point, we'd be looking at pulling together a longer a retreat where we could hash through some of the recommendations and really look at the, you know, strengths and weaknesses, opportunities,
challenges around a a CLT model. Um, so that's what we're looking to do over the next several months. Um, and like I said, the next steps is uh next slide is just it was just the next steps. So, it's fine. It's totally fine. It's just
a repeat of what I said. Um, I did have a slide, Laura. We have our um email addresses and contact information. So, but Joe has those as well. So, um, we just wanted to give you a little taste of what we're thinking about doing and
and get get any advice or, um, or, you know, preliminary questions you have and and like I said, if we can't answer them tonight, at least we can make sure that they're, uh, considered as part of the process. Great. Now, I'll make sure that folks have a chance to um, view this
slide, sort of some of the benefits of the community land trust model, which I know you talked about a little bit. Um, so I'll send this presentation around to everybody. I want to I know that we're past um an hour, so I don't um want to dive too deep in because I want to respect everybody's time, but I
certainly want to carry this conversation forward as this process continues. Quick comments that I want Laura, did you want to just follow up or only if there was a question? Yeah. So, I want to just kind of lay out a few things that come to mind for me and then give others a chance to do that as well.
I think where I see the value in at least pursuing this and kind of looking into it is a few things. You know, first of all, we've talked about the value of private capital um where the ability to set something up as a 501c3 and receive taxdeductible
charitable contributions is something that we can't do. Um, and having a partner, you know, that does have access to that as a tool while we do our government side of things could be really powerful to, you know, align
efforts. Um, and I also think that, you know, where a land trust comes in is, you know, river is a pretty good use case for whether it's this or some other strategy. you know, we do have a lot of that quote unquote naturally occurring
affordable housing and a lot of it is frankly at risk. You know, I think you think about the stock that exists that's kind of prone to, you know, flipping would be one term for it or gentrification or redevelopment or whatever term that you want to use. Um
there's certainly parts of the city uh that are more untouched than others I would say in terms of kind of that type of that type of thing happening with the naturally occurring affordable housing stock. So I think that you know there's not only one way to approach it but I
think this is one way that we should certainly explore as to how we can do that. Um and wanted to just begin the conversation right and just get people to know who some of the key players are and and start talking. So just a quick question.
So what does the CLT do? So let's say you're an entity, a corporation, you have a piece of land, you think it can be developed. Um you want to go affordable. What would the CLT do for that that person?
Um there's different ways to do it. In in the case of uh Dudley Street, they were able to acquire uh land from the city of Boston and then they did a request for proposals after they did a community process where where residents said what did they want to see, what
type of housing, what type of use and then they um for example, if if they if the decision was to build affordable home ownership on those sites, then the um the land trust would would work find
a development partner in most cases who can build the housing. Could be public, could be could be nonprofit, could be a private developer with the agreement that once the house is built, the land goes onto the land trust. So the um to ensure that in addition to subsidies,
the cost of the home is lower because it doesn't include the land value and the land trust would then help with the marketing and the um education of local residents who and helping them connecting with other groups to help
them do first-time home buyer um classes and other things like that. And then um once the once once a homeowner purchases this property, they have full ownership of the home. They they're not a renter. They're not they they have full
ownership of the home. There is a ground lease that governs uh kind of the resale formula. What happens when they sell back? if they want to sell, they would sell back the land trust would have the right of first uh refusal so that they could then get a return to the to the
homeowner but also then take the property back to sell it to another incomequalified homeowner. One of the real features of the land trust is that they unlike most home ownership, even affordable home ownership where there's not a not a huge amount of followup and
in my experience with the with the homeowners, the the land trust um stays with that home. They provide stewardship. they they um one of the big features is that they will stay and try to help support the homeowner, helping
them in the future get um home equity loans or or programs from the city or if they're elderly, other other services that the whole goal is to is to have a successful home ownership and to really prove the point that lower income residents have the ability to own a
home. Many of them when they move into the home are paying less in mortgage than they were paying in rent, but they just couldn't get over that hump from the banks of getting an affordable home. So, the land trust is there as an advocate and a support for them. So, what does the what does the original
owner of the land get out of the deal? Well, in in um depending on the situation in in some cases, like I said, it's been done through publicly owned land where the where the land trust gets the land for a nominal amount and and so
it's a foreclosed or or tax lean or something like that. If it's a um if it's a private sale, typically what we try to do is um have enough parcels of property to to um to be able to pay the
existing property owner and um and then have and then be able to work with the partner to develop the land. It is a challenge now and in the the home price is going up. Uh CLTs have had to get very creative because there isn't the same amount of public land. Um but but
there is there are CLTs all over the place buying off buying from the private market, finding getting acquisition funding and um and trying to make it work. It's um we've also worked with longtime residents of communities who may not have heirs. Maybe they're
getting older and they're interested in selling or donating a home to the land trust. they want to see it go to a a a good use. So there's so that's another way that land trusts have been able to access properties. It's a whole menu of possibilities. People have really had to
get creative. Yeah. And I I kind of view um Thank you. I thank you. I kind of view it as being obviously a lot of these strategies are things that we can undertake as a trust. Uh and I think the question is sort of scale you know where we have the ability
to acquire you know well we have these small city owned parcels that are going to be rfpded out you know we have maybe a duplex that becomes available or something you know what we don't have necessarily the ability to do whereas
you know we've seen something like this in East Boston is some sort of acquisition process for 80 buildings in 300 some odd units. You like we we're never going to have that type of scale whereas depending on you know the big question is who are the
partners involved where's the money going to come from etc. But scale is really to me the difference I think between what we're able to do and maybe what might be able to come out of a trust type structure. Yeah. I've got one quick question regarding the 5013 uh
5013 501c3 status of the the um the land trust. uh have you guys established that or is there a timetable for it? Uh what's um because as as uh Joe mentioned a lot of one of the ways we can partner
is through this process and having that would really allow us to have access to certain private fundraising activities that you know we've pursued. So we wanted to know if you have that on the calendar. Yeah, that it's a great Yeah. No, you go ahead Harry. No, go ahead
Laura. I think we'll say the same thing. Oh yeah, I had the same opening line. That's a great question. Um I think this process uh we don't have a 501c3 or a timeline. I think the idea is that this process helps us identify is that
something that we want to undertake. We um the only sort of parts of the process that have happened so far uh for myself mostly is talking to other folks who run and or have started CLTs and not to put words in their mouth but mostly they've said setting up the 501c3 is the
simplest part or the easiest part. It's it's the organizing around it. Who's the board? Is it the right fit? And all those questions sort of we've been laying in. Oh, we don't I think there could we don't have a timeline for it yet, but I feel like the hard hopefully
we're in the muck of the hard part now to figure out is this a tool we want to invest in and then I do have confidence we'll be able to um establish a 501c3 as a structure if that's determined to be the case if that makes sense. Yeah, I
think uh first of all, good luck uh with that. As I mentioned, was it as when you were starting this initially when Laura was here, I was uh well, when you were on text, we tried to kind of establish some of those timetables or at least get it out in the ether that you know, it's
good to get a legal framework, the ball rolling because then we can do partnerships with the affordable housing trust committee. So, the extent to which I guess I can help again or we all can do that, it's kind of super important. Um I know if we continue the process of getting information and doing surveys
and that's helpful but if we have a timeline let's say in a year or two or three it would help us to kind of budget because we actually are currently looking for um we explore different avenues for fundraising some of which with private banks in the area and there are time tables that we can work again
work with if we have a general idea of how and when you guys would get established if it's the easiest part then that's great then started and then we be able to work handin glove with you. Yeah. And just one other I think a timeline element I could share and Harry chime in here too, but most of his scope
which is an initial kind of exploratory scope should wrap um this summer. We hope to to finish by the end of the summer. So more direction. Could that be the immediate first step legal establishment? Maybe, maybe not. But I think hopefully the scope will answer that question. We should end the summer
at least with more of a timeline. I would think Harry, I don't know if um yeah, if that's right. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think having um and it's a great point. I think in the case of Chelsea, in the case of Brockton, for example, the first step was, is this something that fits into those
communities? Is this something that people really want? And at the end of that process, they then created an operations plan. And one of the pieces of the operations plan, they worked with Suffach University uh legal transaction unit and got a great group of law of
third-year law students to help them and they were able to get 501c3 status. Same in Somerville. So, there is there are resources around that. what they they didn't want to set up an organization yet in my un my understanding and without feeling like there was a
critical mass of rever residents who really wanted this to happen because um you know this is really implying long-term stewardship, long-term control and um and so and decision-m so you we just want to make sure it's it's
something that's there and that but yeah they're definitely um could then pretty quickly follow conversations around how to you moving forward with 501c3 status. All right, want to give others a chance if they have questions, comments,
feedback. Like I said, this is a starting point. So, I I anticipate having further conversations about this, but I just want to thank thank you Harry, thank you Laura for joining us. Thank you everybody um for all your contributions to this meeting.
Um, with that, okay, any other any other questions? Okay, so I'm going to in the interest of time just table, you know, we have a few other things that have some minor updates on the city side, but we'll we'll let that wait until next meeting because they're not quite fully fleshed out yet. Um, any last questions,
comments, public? Okay, with that, I'm going to make a motion to adjurnn. Second. Okay, any objection? Seeing none, we'll see you next month. All right.