Welcome back to the Shame on Stigma podcast, where we have honest conversations that break down barriers, challenge harmful narratives, and shine light on the truth about substance use disorder. I'm your host, Carrie Anne, and today we're diving into something
that is close to the heart of our work, reducing stigma through outreach and education. With me today are some incredible nurses from our public health team who recently led our business outreach program,
bringing overdose education, narcine training, and compassionate conversations directly into our local workplaces. First off, thank you all for joining me. Thanks for having us.
>> Thank you. Glad to be here. I'm Denise. And I'm Karen. I'm a registered nurse. We're both registered nurses and we are uh working with the city of River currently on a businessto business to lock zone initiative that has been going really well.
>> Wonderful. Thank you ladies so much for being here today. You know these group of nurses um Atlantic Hill Nursing we make sure we let people know who you are. >> Yes. >> Um they have led our initiative of going
business to business. >> Yeah. I can tell you a little bit about the program and how we got started. So, um, in January of 2025, Atlantic Health Nursing and Wellness, we are an agency working in Massachusetts and we do a lot of work with, uh, opioid prevention,
harm reduction, community services, and public health programs. So, we connected with Kianne from Ravier and we knew we needed to initiate something together. Um, so we immediately began planning and what Ravier had had in mind was this businessto business initiative. So we
call it our neighborhood nlloxx zone rescue project and basically what that looks like is we are trying to fill the gap between um you know narcan availability in the community. So, what that looks like is we go really on foot, door todo,
visiting local businesses, interacting with business owners, employees, and just offering education, um, reducing stigma, providing them with the knowledge they need to reverse an overdose, and trying to empower our communities. So, really, we go business to business, offer a kit and a training,
answer any questions that they might have, and it's been very wellreceived so far. >> That's amazing. Thank you, ladies. Um, that brings me to my next question about stigma. I'm sure in your outreach you've encountered some hesitation or misconceptions.
What kind of stigma did you see? >> So, I guess I could speak to that. Um, I think mostly it's people not understanding um kind of what Narcan is and and what it can do and also kind of reducing that
um well I don't know anyone who does drugs so we don't need that here you know so um we try to just educate like if somebody says no no no we're we're not interested we don't need that here I would say 99% of the time we have that
conversation with the business, you know, we're able to explain to them what this is actually for and that, you know, it can happen anywhere to anyone at any place at any time. >> And, you know, wouldn't, you know, wouldn't you like to be prepared if you had somebody in your business that, you
know, overdosed for some reason? And a a lot of people will say, well, we'll just call 911. And that's kind of where we educate how they may not make it in time. You know, these things can happen very quickly. in this one little thing
could save somebody's life or, you know, get them to the point where EMS arrives. >> Yeah. And I think it's important with the stigma, too. It wasn't um, you know, anything hateful or negative that we were facing. It was just misconceptions and misunderstandings just like that
that I I will keep a hands-off approach. I don't want to get involved. Um, it was not really rooted in judgment, more so just not knowing how to react and what's the best way to respond in an overdose situation. And I
think a lot of what we were able to do too was educate the people we came in contact with. A lot of people, like Denise said, said, "Oh, well, nobody here uses uh fentinel or heroin recreationally." So, a lot of this project was educating about, you know, the teenager who might have bought a
pill off the street that doesn't know that what they think is Xanax is laced with fentinel and having conversations like that in real time. We saw many parents say, "Oh, I do have a teenager at home." >> I never really thought of that. I never really, you know, thought of those
things until you said that. So, >> kids sleeping over on the weekends, I'll have one of these in my medicine cabinet. or we tell people, you know, do you have um anybody at home who's recently had surgery or an elderly person in your home who has memory issues and is on a prescription opiate? There's all sorts of settings where an
opioid overdose could occur. So, I think breaking down those barriers, too, of this isn't an isolated problem and this isn't just happening to a certain demographic. This could be anyone, anywhere, anytime. >> Exactly. Narcan needs to be the same. And that and you know that's the one
thing that our office tries to educate people on right is that it could be that teenager who buys the pill. It could be the elderly who forgets that they already took their medication. >> These are the things that open people's mind to >> wow I never thought of that. you know,
when we do um the overdose training within the city departments, those are the big things that I highlight, right, is that, you know, kids, not kids, I'm a little older, but you know, people in their 20s and 30s like going out on the weekend, having a couple of drinks, and
then decided, "Oh, I'm going to sniff a line of cocaine." Yeah. They're not getting cocaine, and they're overdosing and dying because they think they're getting a different substance. You know, even kids who go out and, you know, they want to take ecstasy or these other, you
know, club drugs, you know, it it's in them, too, you know. Exactly. So, it's really >> opening people's mind to say, "Wow." >> Yes. >> It's so true. The other thing like as we're talking, you know, you start thinking about you going into a business
and these business owners are like, "Well, my employees like nobody, you know, everybody's good here." But you never know who's struggling. You never know who could be struggling. Like you said, you could have somebody that had a knee surgery and were
prescribed opioids and then it just, you know, it spiraled from there, but your boss doesn't know that and somebody could come to work who's struggling and something could happen on the job. Like it's it's everywhere, right? >> Everywhere. And it's the it's the people
who use substances recreationally, too. like every once in a while they want to have a little extra fun or whatever and >> that or college kids who think that they're getting aderall so they can stay up and study and do well and be
successful are getting fentanyl. >> Exactly. >> College and high school age kids when we come across them we always tell them if you're going to festivals if you're going to concerts if you know people who are using these festival drugs you have a chance of being exposed to fentinyl. Um, so we're always trying to, you know,
drive that home too and just educate people that it's not as small as you think it is. This is everywhere, unfortunately. >> Exactly. And that's literally why we're having these conversations so that people understand that it isn't just one
demographic of people that are homeless on the street. >> That's right. >> Shooting drugs. >> That's right. I think that's where the businessto business model is so um important because we're not assuming that this can only happen in one place in one area. And there's been places
where to be honest we've gone on foot and driven around and when we were first starting this there'd be you know a bigger department store somewhere that we thought h there might be barriers to management and getting in there and you just you can never know. We there was a department store we said maybe we'll
circle back that looks like it could be difficult to get into and they had an overdose in the bathroom about a week later and we ended up training them. Um but you just really can't discriminate as many places as we can put Narcan. It's necessary even we've learned a lot
>> just doing things like that and kind of looking and being like oh they're probably low on the list so maybe we'll circle back and then a week later there's an overdose where you least expect it. And I think that's really important for people to know that it can happen in any type of business at any
time. You could have an employee, a customer. You know, there's so many scenarios that people could come into your business or be employed by your business and you could be in a situation where it, you know, something happens and you're not prepared. >> And that's why, you know, Narcan should
be like a first aid kit in your business. >> Absolutely. >> It's a lifesaving medication. And like we said, it can happen to anyone. So we really need to be mindful of that and get it out there as much as humanly
possible so everybody has access to it. Just like if you would carry an EpiPen exactly diabetic. >> That was an example we used often to kind of give an analogy of this. This is how you're acting. We would tell people keep it with the first aid kit. um a lot of our education too and a lot of the
stigma I think was around um people being anxious to use it because they didn't want to be sued or be liable or go to court. So that was a huge piece of this program too was educating uh the community about good Samaritan laws and letting them know
that if you administer Narcan in good faith you are not going to be liable or sued. Um, that was one of the bigger misconceptions I think we saw because often we'd train people and talk to them and said they would say that's amazing, but we're going to take a hands-off approach. So, a lot of our explanation
became this Narcan kit is really your bridge for EMS to arrive and to keep this person awake and breathing and alert to go receive treatment. And when we started explaining it like that, it made a lot more sense to people. They're like, "Oh, this is why I would intervene
versus waiting for EMS. It's to buy this person more time, a better chance at recovery and treatment. Survival. Yep. That was a big barrier we faced. >> It was. And it's like when we started to say, you know, just And they It does look like a little first aid kit that we
give out. So, we just started saying put it with your first aid kit. If a customer fell down in your store and bumped his head and you gave them a band-aid, like just put it where everything else is and think of it that way. if you you know hopefully we tell everybody we hope you never have to use
it >> but you don't ever want to be in a situation where you know you're in a business and you're like oh those nurses came in and we said no. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Here we are. >> That's powerful. It really is. >> What about the other side? Were there
moments where you saw real openness or change during these trainings? >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Abs all the time. All the time. And in the places you'd least expect it, sometimes there would be a business for like, oh, you know, does the H&R Block really want a training right now? And we
go in and have one of the most receptive audiences. And um that just I think one of the things we were most impressed by was just the uh how receptive everybody was, >> right? and and people sharing their
stories and just you know we've been doing this for a while now so we know it's it's everywhere but even people s we are surprised sometimes like well by people saying it's like I you know I I had a I had a son overdose I had a a
family member my mother like or something and they it feels good to be able to share your story with somebody that's tell we're coming in and we're telling you this is okay. >> This is okay. And the amount of stories that we got were
>> yeah on multiple occasions we completed a training somebody would say I lost a parent to an overdose or if I had Narcan I could have prevented an overdose. >> Um we yeah a lot a lot more firthand experience with the effects of opioids
than we expected to encounter. But there were there were really beautiful moments throughout this. For instance, something that comes to mind, we were um doing a training in a pawn shop one afternoon and we had two employees and they they were wonderful and we were doing the training and we were kind of trying to
wrap it up because there were a couple customers waiting and so we turned around. We're like, "Oh, we're so sorry. Just a couple more minutes." And these customers actually said, "No, we're listening in and we'd like you guys to know that we're in active recovery and you have no I or in recovery and you have no idea what this means to us." And
we were able to connect with them and actually give them information about treatment resources and different connections to care. So, you never know where you're going to be, where you're going to be talking about it, and who needs to hear, who you need to connect with. So this is really just more so
about even training on the narcan just putting feelers into the community educating the community and making connections and that's what it's all about is you know recovery is just connection and we have to meet people where they're at because you know we are
not God when who are we to judge anyone right everybody who is in recovery who still using substances who is homeless on the street. Like all those people have a story. >> Yeah,
>> we all have a story and everybody is affected by this in one way or another. Whether it's a co-orker, colleague, a friend, a family member, like it's everywhere. So, we have to start talking
more about this and being open. And it's okay to feel safe, like people felt safe to talk to you >> about their personal life because you were non-judgmental in that moment. They knew you were trying to help so they felt safe.
>> I think too we were non-judgmental about people's questions that they had for us. Um something that we came across a lot was people saying, you know, Narcan enables enables the addiction. And that is a common misconception and we did
hear that often and we we definitely didn't have this answer at the beginning of the program but as we kept hearing this our response became there is no hope of treatment unless they have access to Narcan. There is no treatment if you overdose. >> Exactly.
>> And that's what people need to know. Maybe somebody needs, you know, Narcan seven times and then on the eighth time that's when they decide they want to seek treatment and get sober. And you know, who are we to judge and say, but I think we were able to dispel that narrative a little bit too.
>> Definitely. >> We're really offering people a chance at recovery. And when people start thinking like you know that it enables you kind of have to think of it like and I always thought about this as when I was a nurse and I was caring for patients. I would care for that patient
like they were my family member like what if this was my mom in this bed or what and this that type of scenario works in this situation as well. Do would you think the same way if you were talking about your family member? >> Yes. like that. You know, if Naran saved
your family member six times before your family member said, "Okay, I'm I'm ready." How would you feel about that? And that's very powerful because then people say, "Oh, wait. Well, if this was my sister, my brother, I would certainly want somebody to have this available to
save their life and give them another chance at recovery." >> And you can't have a chance at recovery if you're dead. >> That's right. And sometimes, you know, people who are actively using substance on a regular, they don't want narcine,
right? They're not looking going, "Oh, well, if I overdose, someone can just hit me with narcine and it'll be fine." No, they really don't want that. You know, >> we we're we're now talking about compassionate overdose response, right?
So, you know, big farmers coming up with the these new stronger doses of narcine that, you know, um is higher in milligrams, but what they're seeing is that it is putting folks in precipitated
withdrawal. >> So, like extreme, >> they're using >> Yes. So, because they're giving it more and more, you know, the the regular dose, the 4 milligrams is sufficient enough. Mhm. Yeah. >> To help somebody before ENTs get there,
you know, and you have two doses. Most kits have two doses. So, you have a chance after 2 minutes to give another dose. >> Exactly. >> And that should be it by that time. EMT should be there anyway by you administer the second dose by the time.
>> Yep. That's why we always tell people each kit has two doses. It's a short acting medication and we tell them the kit is used for exactly that. always initiate a 911 call and this will bridge the gap between waiting for EMS. >> Right. The other thing I just want to speak real quick on what we were just
talking about before it's like you know with that stigma of narc it's going to enable people to use and you know everybody that has substance use disorder they have a story you know they didn't say hey I want to have substance
use disorder today like there's things leading up to how that person got there nobody chooses this as a life you know So people need second chances in every aspect of life.
That's just I think it's huge to know that that people don't walk out and say, "Hey, I want I want to have substance use disorder today." Like that's not how it happens. >> Well, the problem is, right, is that you know, all these treatment centers and and recovery services,
they're treating the symptom. Mhm. >> The drugs are a symptom >> of the rooted core trauma, unhealed trauma, poverty, abandonment. Like there is pain and
trauma there. And that's what we got to work on is getting to that root and helping people >> to address the real cause of their substance use disorder. Exactly. >> Drugs are, you know, we all have coping mechanisms. We all have vices
>> and we're looking >> to get relief. It comes down to we just want relief, >> right? >> And from whatever pain that we're experiencing, grief, whatever. And >> everybody uses something, you know, whether it's coffee,
>> cigarettes, drugs, alcohol. Alcohol is so acceptable and it's the most harmful drug out there. And we're going to liquor stores who are fighting us to not have narcine in their establishments, >> but they're selling the most deadliest
drug out there. So, it's just like it it blows my mind to see >> like what's acceptable and what's not, right? >> It's so true. >> It's so true. And we've had that conversation on many occasions about, you know, well, you have a drink, you
know, and that's just perfectly acceptable. or you go out and have a couple drinks, you get in your car, you drive. Like, you know, all of these things are so harmful. You're impaired. And yeah, people who use opiates, they're impaired, right? But
>> alcohol is so damaging. And like, not that opiates isn't, right? I mean, they all can be harmful if you misuse them, >> right? >> But anything can be harmful if we misuse them. I could, you know, if I'm watching too much Netflix or I'm eating too many
cupcakes, like that can be harmful, too. So, >> like when we catch ourselves judging the folks that are really caught up in a cycle, right? Because it's just a cycle. It's a It's like a loop that we It's
like a mental loop in our head that just keeps going. Well, there's always some precipitating factor, whether that's, you know, mental health or trauma or a surgery. Um, there's always some type of precipitating factor. And I think that >> anybody who has judgment about opioids,
like you said, everybody has their vices. And if you're holding judgment about opioids, just be lucky that you never came across them. Because the thing about opioids, they don't discriminate. it it you know whatever your reason for taking them was if you have taken an opioid you could be
addicted so I think that's important to realize too it's this isn't a certain type of person or it happens to one person any scenario that you're taking an opioid this can start this can happen and you know we've had conversations with people who said 5 years ago I
wouldn't have spoken with you uh but that was before I had surgery and I ended up needing to go to treatment for >> exactly Yeah, we've heard more stories like that cuz I think people have this perception that, you know, you see somebody on the
street or whatever that that's, you know, that it was a choice for one thing and another thing is is you're not living in someone else's shoes. You know, we we worked in ICU for many many years and it's heartbreaking. You have
people from every walk of life come into that ICU and you know you have we've had parents bring you know with children, police officers, school superintendent, teachers like these are you know what
you people would say like quote unquote these are good families you know or it does not discriminate and we can't right >> say that enough >> and that's why conversations like this are so important Because even I'm 30 about and when I was growing up there
wasn't a conversation around how addictive opiates opioids are. At least to like teenagers, young adults growing up today, we're telling them this is highly addictive. If you experiment with this, if you play around with this, you're risking your life and you're
risking addiction. And even 15, 20 years ago, we didn't have that knowledge. So, uh I think that's important too to have that conversation. let people know if you if you try if you start, be prepared. And even when we do youth education programs, we tell them there's
a safe time and a safe place, but if you're ever being prescribed an opiate, there needs to be an exit plan, a taper off plan. You don't stay on them prolonged, and you always need to approach them and use them with caution and know what you're getting yourself into, which I think even that is so
different than it was just a short time ago. >> Oh, yeah. We never talked about this stuff especially like you know it was taboo. Yes. All taboo until people started dying. >> Yes. Yeah. >> And then people woke up and said, "Oh, what is this problem we're
experiencing?" But this has been going on for many, many years. It's just the drug supply today compared to 20 years ago is completely different. There was no fentanyl in the street tank 15 years
ago. It was heroin. Yeah. >> You know, and it was safer. I hate to say it, but it was safer back then. There wasn't so many overdoses. People still overdosed, >> but there wasn't the numbers we're seeing in today's day and age.
>> Right. And there was, you know, not as much of the element of poisoning like there is now where it's hidden in substances where people don't expect it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, all these pressed pills, that's what we're coming up against. They're pressing them and
selling them as ecstasy, as Adderall, as Xanax, >> andable. We we show our students, we will pull up pictures side by side of two aderalls and say, "Tell us what's the street drug and what is from a pharmacy." And of course, they can't because we can't. They
>> searched it by orange round pill with the number 30. It would show you on Google this is an aderall >> and this is, you know, something people need to be aware of, >> right? I think that's something that I think that that has been the most shocking I think to people that we talk
to a lot of times is like you're like wait what like like you're you're a nurse and you can't tell a difference. We cannot tell the difference. Never mind these kids. And the fact that these vape cartridges now, the marijuana vape
cartridges, and people don't understand that fentinyl is getting into those, which is really scary because kids smoke weed like, and they think it's not harmful, but you know, and then they're like, "Oh, well, you know, you can you
can go get it." But but they're not 21. So, there's still a lot of teenagers that are buying marijuana from the from the street and not from a dispensary. And it's really scary yet a disturbing. Somebody had shared photos with us of um
things they seized. And they were black market marijuana, not from dispensaries, but they were packaged in dispensary packaging. And there were like 11 states throughout the country where they found those type of marijuana carts with laced with fentinel and they were black market. So that wasn't
specifically in Massachusetts, but they're selling them in Massachusetts. >> And it's only a matter of time. >> Just a matter of time. And if you're a kid, you see it's wrapped in packaging and cardboard. You're thinking, "Oh, my friend's older brother bought this at the store and is perfectly safe." >> They're doing the same thing with this
marijuana and the things they sell at the dispensary. They're now copying all of the packaging from the dispensaries. And so you cannot tell. >> Mhm. >> You cannot tell. So >> the only way you can tell, this is a trick, um, with the pressed pills is if
you rub it. If you if there's powder on your hand, it's fake. If it's if nothing comes off and it has the the coating over it, it most likely is from a great tip. >> Yeah. And the consistency of the pill, too. If you crush it Yeah. crumbly. >> Mhm. That's a really great tip to share.
>> Yeah. Well, this is has been a great conversation, but um Nar is so let me ask you, how do you see outreach like this directly fighting stigma? I >> I think in all the ways we talked about
I think just having open conversations and talking about it is the only way through. And like we said, 99% of people we spoke to were nothing but receptive. if they had any uh you know catch-ups. It was not from a place of judgment but
from a lack of education. There I think one instance where I can say maybe we heard something you know just straight up like ignorant. Yeah. Nums and ice. >> Yeah. There's one situation I can think of but otherwise I truly think that any question or any push back was just truly
rooted in a lack of education. And so I think one of the biggest things we can do is just talk about good Samaritan laws and let people know that if you're ever in a situation where you suspect an overdose, so somebody has slowed breathing, blue lips, pinpoint pupils,
they're seeming unconscious, and this is for kids at festivals, concerts, anywhere you might be. If you're at a bar and you see this, um, to be able to respond with Narcan is life-saving. And I think like we use the analogy of a fire extinguisher. If you could
extinguish a fire, why wouldn't you? If you could save a life, why wouldn't you? And if it's as easy as a nasal spray, and that's another misconception. A lot of people do not realize that Narcan is simply a nasal spray. It's >> And it's so easy. >> So easy. As easy as given allergy
medication. Exactly. So, that was also a misconception cuz some people did think it was EpiPen style and they're like, I don't want to inject anyone. I'm scared of blood and all that. >> Exactly. >> Um, >> yeah. We had a lot of people, they're like, that's it? I'm like, "That's it." >> And it's one little tap and it goes up.
It gets into the membranes. It knocks the opiates off the receptors >> and then the narcine sits on those receptors. But what people need to know is that it only lasts 90 minutes. So, you want to make sure that they go to
the hospital because when you wake up from an overdose, you don't realize you overdosed. You wake up like, "What are all these people doing around me? What is going on? like I'm fine and they want to walk away. >> Yeah, that's part of our training. A big part of the training is explaining that
to people that it's very short acting. So, this isn't going to >> because once once that narcine wears off, those opiates can go right back on those receptors and you can go into another overdose. >> Yeah. I think at the onset of this program too, we were nervous about
if we distributed so much narcin into the community, would we um be preventing people from calling 911 and going to seek treatment if they did overdose in the community? And so that's been an important part of our training too where the medication is short acting. You with
two doses of Narcan, you cannot guarantee that somebody will reverse an overdose. So you are always initiating a 911 call. So, I think that's good where we give two kits to bridge that 911 call, but we're not giving enough that somebody could take a kit and use at
home and um get into trouble. And also, I think something um I noticed was we have the NOX boxes around town, which are amazing, and people can access those. I think this program helps to give better use to those too because now people see those on the street and say,
I know how to use that. I know how to respond. Let me grab one of these and take it home. >> Exactly. So it also helps on that front to just educate people about where Narcan is in the community, how you could find it, and how how you can use it to save a life. >> Yeah. So, and just to let our audience
know, there we have nine Narcan boxes throughout the community. >> I didn't know that many now. >> Nine. And um each week we go and replenish them. And I don't have the number off the top of my head how many we have already given out. It's been a
little over a year that we've had them up since May of 2024. >> And we've given out hundreds like like 500 doses have been distributed throughout the community
>> and now with the businesses jumping on board with this like there's no reason anyone shouldn't have access to this life-saving medication, >> right? And that initiative has been so great too because a lot of these businesses when we made first contact and said have you heard of Nlloxxone or
Narcan they say not until I saw the box that went in across the street over there and then I looked it up. So you guys are doing a really great job of just educating the community about Narcan and how to use it and how to respond and visibility is huge. Like that's what creates normaly
>> when you you're seeing this now in the community and you're like oh okay like this is this is a good thing this is a good thing I've had you know I've had push back from community members when those boxes first went up and one guy had said to me I don't want this I don't
want this hair and um he said what about the kids if the kids get at it you know something could happen and I said to him. This is not going to affect anybody. It's like you're spraying water up your nose. If you don't have opiates
in your system, it will do nothing. It only works on opiates. So, it is the safest medication as well. If a kid was playing with it like >> it it would wet them >> and it can be used on children. It can be there's no age limit. So, that's why
people don't understand. >> That's an important part of our training too. It is a huge part. Yeah. that piece. And we also always let people know that if you're ever in a scenario where, say for instance, somebody's having a diabetic coma or a stroke, some medical emergency where the symptoms
could mirror mimic an overdose, um, or you're just not sure, you're never ever going to harm somebody by giving Narcan in doubt. When in doubt, always administer. And that's safe for all ages, all medical conditions. Because the the Narcan fills that opioid
receptor. The only time you're going to have an effect from Narcan is if you have opioids in your body, >> right? And that that those have been questions, you know, that have come up with community members that they're concerned like, how do you know when to
give it? How do you just give it? Just give it. We We are lucky enough in this state to be able to have access to this >> in for free. For free, right? So that like as many people can access it as
humanly possible. Everyone should have one in their pocketbook. Everyone should have one in their >> backpack. Absolutely. >> As we've done in this opioid work and research, you know, evidence-based programs and what works and what moves the needle, what we really found looking
across the country, like a county next to another county, the overdose rates could be, you know, not comparable at all. One count is through the roof and one county is pretty level. And what we learned through research was the
difference was Narcan access to Narcan and reversal overdose um or reversal overdose reversal agents. Um that really is what moves the needle is having Narcan available. And >> and we're still seeing stigma in other
communities that aren't willing to try a business initiative or have narcane boxes or even educate their community on it. And that that is like >> stigma, right? >> It is. It is.
>> It is. Well, we're hoping I mean this program has been so successful here um and and so wellreceived that we're hoping people talk cuz like you said this is what gets it out there. Education talking.
>> You talked about stigma and we really get through to people where they're in person. We're nurses, you know, we have experience. We've had experience in the hospital with overdose. And I think it's once you get talking, you just have to
get the person in front of you to have that conversation, >> actually listen. >> And like I said, nine times out of 99% of the time when we can have that conversation, >> we the light bulb goes off in that person's head that's listening to us
like, "Oh, well, look, this could happen and this isn't what I thought it was." So that's that's a lot of that's wonderful change, you know? And I think with a lot of public health work, we see the same players a lot or the same um
community members coming together knowing what resources are available, but by doing the businessto business approach, we're spreading that through the community. So people who might otherwise not have heard about, for instance, your resource day or different programs available now have access to
infrastructure they didn't know existed before. Well, even when I've had events, I've had, you know, after the fact, I've had community members come up to, I didn't know anything about it, you know, and it's like, okay, how can we get the messaging out there for, you know, the
events that we do, um, the resources that we have, the help we can offer, you know, like we want we want the community to know that like there are these services, but when you're not in it, right, when you don't have a person that
you're worried about, um that are that's using drugs, you're not going to seek our services, you're not even but just to know >> if God forbid down the road your child comes home from school and you know is caught up in something, you want to know
what's out there. especially if you have teenagers like our office, >> you should call and inquire or look on our website and and see what we offer and you know be proactive so that you can have those conversations with your
kids like hey I heard them talking the public health department about this medication and about >> you know drugs that aren't safe you know the the drug supply is literally poisoned and not just with fentanyl with other substances that are like
>> built for animals like tranquilizers that like >> are not for human consumption. And they're also causing these open nasty sores and wounds on people's body too, which is then then they're having
to go to the hospital for to take care of that and then possibly antibiotics and like it's just like a vicious cycle. I think like when you say events, I think the most surprising thing was we
started to get the word out there and one of the other communities that we work in and you guys do a lot of events as well, but we literally started setting up shop with our Narcan table at rabies clinics, you know, park days, all
kinds of things. And I remember that first rabies clinic we did and we were like get out of here. We we were out of Narcan by the end of the rabies clinic. And that's just from people going they you know the dog cat getting their shot.
We're down the other end of the table. They stop to they're like hey what do you guys do? What what is this? What is this? and you have these conversations and the next thing you know we've given out a hundred doses of narcin at a rabies clinic >> with an education pamphlet and now you
have a hundred more people and these events are so eye opening too because these are also where you realize that you'll give somebody a training and give them a narcan and at the end they'll say I wish I had this when my son overdosed or you know it that shows you the
vastness of what we're dealing with here because there's so many people you think Oh, do they have, you know, any skin in this game? Do they does this affect them directly? More than you could imagine. With more than you could imagine. >> Speaking of doses, right, of Narcan. >> Yeah.
>> How many, if you had to guess, how many doses have you given out? How many, first of all, how many businesses have you trained, educated, and gave them nlloxxone? >> What are we at?
Yep. 180. Yes. So, I believe we're at about 170 total businesses trained, >> over 350 doses of Narcan put into the community. And also, I should mention that we provide every business with two doses, but if there's any employee in the business who's interested in taking
Narcan to have on hand, we give that to them, too. So, it is probably closer to 450 doses of Narcan into the community. Um, we've trained over 300 employees in the community and, yeah, 175 businesses. So that is 175 points of access where if
they come across somebody in need of services, they now know who to call, who to reach out to. Everybody who received a kit um they have the contact information for the study office and instructions to call with any outreach
questions or replacements. So basically any of these businesses, 175 new points of access where if they know somebody's in need, they know where to go. >> Right. On top of that though, like Carrie was saying, when we're in a
business and we're doing our training, there's customers, >> right, >> in the business. So, we've had so many people. I mean, we've been in nail salons and what and, you know, we'll be leaving and the customer will stand up and show they'll say, "That was so
great. I can't believe you guys are out doing this." Or, "I didn't know that." Or because they're with an earshot. So, you know, we keep metrics on how many people we see, but we really don't we don't really have it's the number is much higher of people that have interacted with us and heard our
training >> pass by training. Pass by training. Exactly. >> And so, you're giving it to more community members and like so this city should be filled with an arcane and you know, everybody should know how to get it, where to get it,
>> and exactly >> how to use it. And a lot of overdoses, you know, have taken places at businesses. That's why we wanted to start this initiative, right? You know, it's h they've happened at >> multiple multiple Dunkin Donutses. And I
know Dunkin Donuts has had to get into because of corporate and whatever. >> We did it though. >> You did it. And you got actual employees to say, "I'll take it even if they don't." you know, and like that is amazing to me that like it just gets me
so excited to know >> how many businesses now have it in their establishments and how open people have been because I was nervous that you were going to get a lot of push back. Mh. >> So like to know that most people are
receptive and they're they're educated now and now they can teach someone else and someone else >> and let's hope that everybody has carries it on them. >> Exactly. >> Right. Well, I'll tell you a funny story. It's just a personal story, but
>> so obviously my kids know what I do and they've all been given naran to take to college and wherever else. So my oldest is out of school. He was going to Canada to visit a friend and he has Narcan in his car and the border agent was like,
"This is another stigma, you know, oh, why are you carrying Narcan? Do you you must use drugs." And I was so proud of him because he's like, "My mom does outreach." And and he told the whole story to the border patrol agent. >> That's amazing.
>> And at the end of it, the border patrol, he was like, "Wow, that's really great." like and and that's just one thing, you know, but it's like somebody tells somebody, somebody else tells somebody, somebody else tells somebody, and you're like, "Okay, that makes sense, >> you know?" So, yeah, that was a really
really good story. >> That's really cool. >> Yeah. And I have some cool stories, too, of like just people that just didn't have any idea on like what this was all about and would was too nervous and didn't want to know what it was about,
but once you explain it to them and they're like, "Oh, wow. Well, that makes so much sense. Oh, that's great. You know, y >> and like I'm just I'm just thrilled that our community has access everywhere and
the overdoses are reducing. >> Yes. I think you're, you know, the community is doing an amazing job and this upcoming generation, they know, they know so much more than we did. I just worked a community event the other day and a young girl came up to my table and she said,
>> um, I actually know how to use these, but I'm going to take a couple cuz my friends could make better decisions. And >> I'm like, look at that. Like, that's exactly, you know what? Yes, you're you're in college. You're going to parties. >> People make mistakes. People do, you know, curious. People are curious.
People take things that are laced. They don't know. So, every place, every time, that's what we can do. And that's what we're trying to do. and these the working opioid groups in the different cities and towns is I mean another thing you know with stigma we work with the police and we work with fire you know
what I mean and and now we're we're all working together so if like that situation that my son was in like if somebody gets pulled over and they have naran in their vehicle it's not necessarily saying that you know that's a bad they're using drugs or that's a bad thing >> and since we've been able to connect
with police and fire and you again, you're reducing that stigma and, you know, it's making more and more sense to everybody that's involved in the process. So, it's been it's it's been really great. >> It has. We've we've been lucky and I think one of the best things was just how well received it was by the
community. And it just makes you feel hopeful that there's less less judgment than we think and where there is stigma. >> I think so much of it is rooted in misunderstanding versus >> and fear. Fear. Fear. Yep. But we um we
found there was a lot less push back or negative feedback than we expected. We were so pleasantly surprised by how much the community wanted to engage and learn and be a part of this >> which is a huge positive step in the right direction and saying well if
people are engaging here and in the other towns then this is rolling forward >> and it will become a thing right other communities will be like wow look what they're doing in river let's try this out and that's the hope right is that >> the more we shine light on the stigma
and and the misunder understanding of what this is all about and what we're trying to do. You know, we're trying to shine light on the fact that these are human beings. These are people's lives. We've lost over 70,000
Massachusetts residents. >> Crazy. >> In a couple of years, like that's crazy. >> Awful. >> And these are people who had potential. >> Brothers. >> Yes. They had, you know, they had potential. They had life in them. They, you know, whatever. It's just like
they're not here because >> possibly because of the stigma and >> right who's to say if a dose of Narcan would have >> and the other big thing is is like >> people who do have substance use disorder have a lot of shame around
that. So they don't tell people they're going to use if they have, you know, a slip or something. I mean, they go they're using by themselves, shutting the door, locking it. And that is that is what we got to reduce is like
allowing people >> to be okay with saying like, >> I'm going to use I just want to be safe. And that's why we have safe spot, right? It's it's an 800 number you can call you and let the people know, listen, I'm going to use. I don't want to tell my friends and family because they'll be
disappointed or mad at me, but I want to let you know I'm going to use. And they literally have your location. >> Y >> and if you don't check back in in 5 minutes, they send EMTs to you, right? >> So like
>> there are so many resources for people who are afraid to talk about their drug use, right? who don't want to share it because of fear of judgment and um you know there are safe safer ways they can use it. You know our whole goal is to
meet people where they're at. >> So if you're not you're at a place where like hey I like using this is what I do. This is my life and I'm okay with it. Whatever scenario you're in, we'll support that. We're not going to tell you you have to get off drugs. We're not
going to tell you you have to go to treatment. We're not going to force our beliefs onto you. And that's what happens in the treatment world is >> most of the people that work in treatment are in recovery, right? And they push their own personal beliefs
onto folks that walk through the door that aren't ready to hear what they have to say, right? >> Like just love, support, connection. That's it. Like keep your personal opinions to yourself. >> Well, that's so key what you said. they're not ready, >> right?
>> So, it sounds funny to like make this kind of comparison, but you think about, you know, nobody's a perfect person. And how many times have you done the same thing over and over again and you're like, why do I keep doing that? Like kind of like, okay, so say you want to lose 10 pounds, you know, and then the next day or two you're at McDonald's or
something like that. How many times have you done that? No, you have to be ready, you know, and it does sound like a crazy comparison cuz it's not, but it's just kind of a real life comparison to to how many times have you had to do something to to make that change in your life,
whatever that may be. It's not instant. Well, don't don't forget you, you know, you got a pointing your finger, you got three pointing back at you. >> That's you. That's right. That's you're that you're projecting your [ __ ] >> right? a person who is having a struggle
being think they can just >> snap out of it, you know, >> and like I I think I said earlier, people who haven't uh come across opioids in that capacity, it's luck. You're lucky that you haven't, you know, been in that scenario. >> Yeah. Cuz everyone's going to be affected by this. Everyone.
>> Yeah. It's literal luck at this point. hopefully in another 20 years, right? This what we're talking about will be so norm is the hope is that like people like you that are passionate about helping other people stay alive, >> right?
>> Long enough to figure out what their next move or step is. >> Yeah. >> And being there for their their friends and family like this is going to be normalized. That's the hope. >> Yeah. Right. Sometimes harm reduction is the most compassionate thing that you can do.
>> It Well, it is right because I know if somebody tells me, hey, don't drive through that red light just because they told me not to, I want to drive through it. I accept human behavior. >> Especially teenagers. >> Oh my god. Yes. Right? Like and some
parents are you know very controlling and and you know helicopter parents and because of their own fears and biases and then you have other parents who are like ah do what you want and you know so >> and it's not to say that it your
parenting skill is right or wrong it's just everyone's different >> right well that's and again that doesn't discriminate parent you know your kid might want to go experiment lax parents they might be out who knows what. >> When we deal with parrots, when we have people come up to tables and things like
that, it's, you know, we always try to say the thing you don't want to say is not my kid. >> Exactly. >> Okay. Because again, I can't tell you how many people, you know, good grades, sports, whatever, whatever, you know,
the the kids you think that will never happen to, it happens all the time. So, you don't want to be that parent that says, "Not my kid." And then you're not prepared for a situation that you didn't see coming. >> Exactly. >> So, and we've all been there, you know,
like teenagers are stupid. >> They make mistakes. >> Exactly. They're learning to try. >> They're learning about where they belong in. >> Doesn't mean you're a bad parent because you have narcan in the house in case something happens. >> Exactly. And I think all parents of
teenagers should have it in their mouth 100%. During this program, we talked about this story, but I had seen um a news clip and there was a a family. They were having a dinner party downstairs and their teenage 16-year-old daughter was up in her bedroom with a friend and at
some point in the night they said, "It's been quiet up there." They went upstairs to look and one of the girls had passed away and overdosed and one of the girls was still breathing and they had they had taken Xanax, what they thought is >> what they thought was Xanax. and they, you know, the daughter whose parents home it was overdosed in the home and
her friend lived, but this happened. Their parents were downstairs having a dinner party. You just never know. It's, it does not hurt to have it in your medicine cabinet or in the glove box of your car. You never know when you can save a life. >> And the other thing is for people who do
like to use substances or doesn't necessarily have a substance use disorder, right, is we offer fentanyl test strips. So if you are buying aderall off the street and you're not sure, >> you can test it to make sure the fentanyl is in there.
>> Absolutely. And again, people see that as you're enabling somebody, but you're enabling someone to not die. >> Exactly. >> Is what you're doing if you want to >> knock it down to the simplest thing like and >> again, it takes people time to get
there. >> Exactly. like and they need to be able to get there. They can't get there if they're not here. >> And if they don't have these life-saving resources, right, they're not going to they're not going to make it. So, we have a better shot of saving a lot more
lives, having access to this, having it everywhere. Like, every human I believe should have it on them. But and I know I've t I've had many conversations with people who just don't get it and don't believe in it and think that it's
enabling and you know I just try to explain to them like this is human connection like >> this is you know you might not believe that this is safe but wouldn't you want somebody to save your life if you had an
accidental overdose cuz most of the overdoses are accidental there people thinking they're getting the substances. There are people, you know, elderly who, like you said, forget forget that they took their meds already and they take them again, right? >> You know, we just had a couple overdoses
at some of the over 60 >> buildings. You know, these are older people that are doing >> 68 years old, 56 years old. You know, it just it does not matter. >> No, no, it really doesn't. You know, it
is. I have seen um recently people who had surgery that they give it to you with your prescription when you >> they do now. Yeah. >> Yes. Which is amazing. But even that I think it was like $70 or somewhere around there. >> It it used to be 90. >> Yeah. So important for people to know
too that if you're looking for um Narcan, a lot of towns including River or cities are community lock zone partners and you can get Narcan or you can go to the Nlloxx boxes and get it. Um, but we hope to have it always accessible easily. >> And if they don't give that to you,
because they don't always give it, but And if they don't give that to your family member, if you're prescribed an opioid, ask for it. Yeah. Because most insuranceances cover it. I think you might have to pay a co-ay, >> but if you didn't, like it's $90 for
this and we give it out for free. >> Exactly. >> Come get it. And if you ever do use >> Nlloxxone, which is Narcane, I know we we go back and forth. Y >> um if you ever do use it, please call and tell us so we can replace it
>> and we can know that it worked to save somebody's life. >> Exactly. And that was a part of our business initiative too was letting them know if they ever administer we'll replenish to just reach out. >> Exactly. Right. >> That's amazing. H this was so great.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your heart. Your work, the work you're doing isn't just about overdose prevention. It's about creating community where people feel safe, supported, and seen. For our listeners,
remember, stigma kills. Compassion saves lives. If you want an arcane training for your workplace or you just want to learn more about it, please reach out to us. This has been the Shame on Stigma podcast. Until next time, keep talking,
keep challenging, and keep showing up with love. Thank you all. >> Thanks, Kianne.