Thank you. Welcome to the, 02/19/2025 city council meeting. We start every city council meeting with our open comment period. This is an opportunity for anyone from the public to speak on items that we will not be taking public testimony on during a public hearing later in the agenda. Each person has two minutes to speak for a total of twenty minutes. I will be keeping track of time through a variety of methods through this, stoplight here and the clock up there with the blue letters.
And, because of limited time, we wanna make sure that others have an opportunity to speak. So I encourage you to be concise and, and also, if you're speaking on the same topic, if, if you want to take other approaches to to that topic rather than, repeating what other, public testifiers have said that will, get us through, quicker. If you have materials to share with the council, you may give them to the city clerk over here to distribute. Please state your name clearly and make sure the clerk has your information if you
need follow-up. And with that, I am going to start with Paula Harden. Thank you, Mayor Norton, for putting ADA compliance on the top of your strategic priorities list. There are multiple instances of non compliance to be found in the city. Perhaps before money is spent on any one problem, the city, should identify and prioritize deficiencies. This would include assessing the highest risk, and discovering which are the most offensive problems the city may not yet be aware exist.
A certified ADA permanent employee would be able to help with that as well as prevent even more mistakes being made in the future. Historically, I would like to know how much money has been spent making it accessible. I'm guessing not much. Please, council members, assign someone on the staff to make that determination. Remember, too, that anything accessible is usable by the abled. The problem is it doesn't work the other way. Disabled people cannot easily walk or roll where there is a rough surface.
Unfortunately, the ADA does not explicitly forbid the use of bricks or rough surfaces, just highly discourages them. The ADA is not intended to be comprehensive. After all, it forgot to include street parking for thirty five years, but specified how many inches wide parking stalls and ramps must be as well as access aisles. Several years ago when I went downtown to check on the results of the construction for Hart of the city, I was appalled to see bricks had been had replaced smooth concrete on First Avenue
in front of the restaurant. I had my measuring tape with me and my rollator and jarred myself along this rough surface stooping to measure how far apart bricks were in many places. I have photos showing that one and a half one and one half inch was not uncommon and the maximum is supposed to be one half inch. Thank you, miss Hardin. Moving on, we have Ivan Idzo. My name is Ivan Idzo. Three years ago, I organized an event titled Limits to Growth and the Great Simplification, featuring Nate Hagans. Nate shared that humanity will experience a great simplification in the coming decades,
beginning with the onset of financial and economic turbulence, followed by significant economic contraction. I'm convinced that the great simplification has already begun and will play out in the coming decade. Author DuGould Heinz states, the collapse is already here, it's just not evenly distributed. But how can we begin to have a conversation about this? I'm distributing lapel pins with the black elephant and the words look down on it. The black elephant is a combination of a black swan, which is an unforeseeable event that has a large impact and the elephant in the
room. The black elephant then is an event such as a great simplification that when it happens, everyone will pretend was unforeseeable, when all along it was the elephant in the room. The call to look down is from a passage in the Dark Mountain Manifesto that states, and so we find ourselves, all of us together, poised trembling on the edge of a chain so massive that we have no way of gauging it. None of us knows where to look, but all of us know not to look down. Our question is, what would happen if we looked down? Could it even be good for us?
We believe it's time to look down. So it's time to face the realities of the unraveling of systems and structures that many of us grew up taking for granted. I encourage you to acknowledge and consider that the future that's coming may not simply be an extension of the past. So if a herd of black elephants are charging and you ignore them until they're upon you, it's too late to do anything about it. Thank you. Thank you, mister Aydoo. Alright. So next up is Wyatt Ryan.
According to those surveyed for Vision 02/1950, affordable housing represented the highest priority for Rochester going forward. And while while the Rochester Area Housing Coalition is doing great work for our community, we are experiencing a glaring issue that has not been addressed. That issue is private equity firms coming in and buying properties, taking away opportunities for everyone in our community to purchase housing, whether that be apartments, condos, townhouses or single family homes. Black Swan is one of those companies. Currently they manage two eighty properties in Rochester.
Everything on this list highlighted in red is something that they own. Of those two zero one properties that they own, 159 of them are under companies other than the name of Black Swan. Of those two zero one, 70 nine of them are single family homes. If we are to address the housing and the lack of affordable housing in this city, private equity firms are gonna be one of the greatest barriers limiting that access to affordable housing in Rochester and the surrounding area.
And this deserves more consideration going forward when talking about housing for our community. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ryan. Next up is Jay Smith. Good evening, Mayor Norton and esteemed members of the city council. My name is Jay Smith. I've lived in Rochester since 2014, currently in Ward 6. As you may have noticed, I'm wearing my Minnesota DMV approved high visibility work coat specifically to make a couple of points. First, I want you to think about safety, and by that I mean safety for all of us, not specifically just myself,
but for all the folks like me who have mobility challenges. Second, while I want you to remember me and the request I'm going to make, I really want you to think of the many mobility challenged members of our community who couldn't be here tonight. Two weeks ago during members comments, it was noted that the disability community was not brought into discussions regarding design plans for the sports complex. I'd like to stop that now before we set a trend. I'm here to ask you to fix Peace Plaza so it will be accessible and
safe for everyone in Rochester, including and especially those of us with mobility issues. Peace Plaza reflects our city's identity. It should be a source of pride, not an area in disrepair. The longer we delay fixing this issue, the more costly and difficult the repairs will become. Addressing it now is a responsible investment in Rochester's future. We don't need more studies to highlight the effects of frost heave in northern climates. This is well documented and expensive to mitigate.
We need to cut our losses and move on with an emphasis on making it safe for all of us. Thank you for your time and consideration to this important issue. Thank you, mister Smith. Bethany Porter. Thank you, council president and council members and mayor Norton. My name is Bethany Porter, and I live in Northwest Rochester and have for almost seventeen years now. I've heard Peace Plaza described in several different ways by elected officials or city staff. Responses range from the sidewalk is for everyone, but the other areas are not to a safe,
flexible public space for people to gather. If you can come to a unified agreement on what Peace Plaza is intended to be, that would inform your decisions as well as the public's expectations. Inform your decisions as well as the public's expectations. My understanding has always been in line with the description of a safe, flexible, public space for people to gather. But if it is merely a sidewalk, then plan for a sidewalk. If it is intent if it is indeed meant to be a public space, then plan for a sidewalk. If it is intent if it is indeed meant to be a public space, then plan for a sidewalk. If it is If it is intent if it is indeed meant to be a public gathering space, then we need short and long term plans to make it safe for everyone to use. Whether they are residents or here to visit Mayo, people with disabilities deserve to be able to use the tables and chairs,
and the plan to leave them all on raised letter art excludes us. Please use the full $175,000 to make the largest smooth area possible at this time and start making plans for what more needs to be done. Rochester is a good place to live and that's exactly why I expect better of Peace Plaza. I want to see Peace Plaza evolve into a space that is welcoming to everyone in the community. Thank you so much. Thank you, miss Porter. John Howie. Good evening, council members, mayor.
Thank you for this opportunity. I will not ask you the two questions because I see by your parents that you're probably parents and grandparents. I am both. And I hope you feel as I would, if I were in your position, that I would have a moral obligation to do the very best job as a council member because of the trust that the citizens of this fine city has placed in me. As a parent or a grandparent, we have a moral obligation to protect them against as much as we can. No one can force you to do anything immoral.
You got that? No one can force you to do immoral things. Dame doctor James Dobson of the Family Research Council did a study a few years ago on prisoners in prisons and how they got there. They all, without exception, started their criminal life and their drug use life on marijuana. The majority of that okay. I'm not a fortune teller or a prophet, but if you go ahead with authorizing the retail sales of marijuana in the city, you will be morally responsible for those that get hooked on it and very possibly,
one of your children or grandchildren will be at one point on drugs, in jail, or dead. Then you'll have to explain to them, the parents and the other siblings, why you passed this law, the use of re of marijuana. You know, I I find this very interesting how the Democrats have put this label on smoking weed, recreational use of a drug. It's not recreational. Thank you, mister Howie. In my eighty years Time is up. Of this God given life,
fifty three years of this have been involved in political life and supporting people like you in your positions, campaigning for them. Could you please wrap up, mister Howie? One minute. One No. Not one minute. You have to just say thank you. You've you've had your two minutes. Thank you, mister Howie. Moving on to Russell Staver. I'll just say hello, guys, and mayor Kim Norton. You might recognize the last name Staver. I happen to be Randy's brother. My beef is there's a company called Northrock Real Estate. They tore down the entire block of houses where I live,
where I lived so they could do something for Destination Medical Center. And, I wound up homeless because of that. And what I'm trying to say is there's a lack of affordable housing in Rochester. And when I say that, I mean, for me, I get social security. I could afford maybe $6.07, $800 a month, which you try to find that here, that's a no go. And, I guess I'd also like to say, you know, Destination Medical Center got $5,000,000,000
from the state. Maybe they could spend $2,040,000,000 of that on some affordable housing. I wouldn't have been homeless unless they tore the place where I looked down. They tore down the entire block by Lourdes High School, the old Lourdes High School. And so I guess that's my major beef. And, you know, I just don't understand it. And, yes, I can go out and get a part time job too and work, but I just wanted my voice heard. Thank you. Thank you, mister Staver. Next up, Brad,
Tryon. Mister Traon. President Schubert, members of council, Brad Traon, Ward five, Councilmember Palmer. I provided each of you guys packets that will be handed out. This past Saturday, the Mayo Civic Center hosted Section one wrestling Rochester Area Home Builders Home Show, Civic Theater Play plus Auditions. On Friday, it snowed. On Saturday, I arrived at Mayo Civic at 10:45 to volunteer for the home show. And was surprised to see the snow was not shoveled by the sidewalk from Center Street to Civic Center. I contacted Mary Kid Norton who told me that she contacted three people and then advised me to call 311 to file a complaint.
I called that 311 number only to learn via voice recording it was closed. As of 9PM Saturday night, over ten and a half hours later, we drove by and the sidewalks are still not cleared. I was concerned about our individuals with disabilities that need public access to that sidewalk. I've attached Rochester Code of Ordinances Section nine sixty two which outlines responsibilities and penalties. The Mayo Civic Center was in complete violation. The City frequently finds homeowners and businesses under these snow and parking ordinances often with no snow on the ground. Based on the ordinance and that I cleared the Mayo Civic Center sidewalk with snow,
please accept my invoice to the city in the amount of $1,000 Please disperse $500 each to the Rochester Police Department and Rochester Fire Department wellness programs on my behalf. We expect homeowners and businesses to follow ordinances when the city itself does not. Thank you. Thank you. Next up is West Lund. Hello? I I know you've missed me a little bit. Nice to see you. Congratulations to you today. To you today. To you today. Thank you. Yeah. I haven't been here since December 18, perhaps. When I congratulated all of the Democrats,
including yourself, counsel president Schoebring. All the Democrats are to be commended along with Isaiah Minnesota and their sister or child organization, Faith in Minnesota, a quasi religious organization of five zero one(four). And all of these groups, I'm excited to see the movement of House File 72 through the Minnesota State Legislature, which is going to apparently deal with some nonprofits and their influence on politics,
of which I've spoken on this microphone many, many times. And I'm really excited to hear so many residents coming here tonight talking about similar issues. Please go back and see my speeches over the years. Everything I've said has been reasonable. The questions I've asked have been cogent and rational, sometimes funny. But, congratulations are in order to everyone for realizing now that we do have partisanship in our local politics and it is a real thing that,
the nonprofit organizations in Minnesota do influence, our public policies. And so we're seeing, yes, thirty seconds are left, Council President Schoebring. And it's almost time, but I just did want to say thank you to everybody. Probably the last point is to say, please don't continue to do things that will bring more law suits against our city in terms of the DIE programs, diversity, inclusion, and equity, or critical race theory, or the blaming of Christians and white people for everything that's ever happened.
Thank you. Thank you, mister Lund. Moving on to, Linda Linda Smith. I'm sorry I messed your first name up. Hi. This isn't anything I normally would do, and I get worked up. I've normally would do, and I get worked up. I've owned a store downtown for twenty four years, and I've never heard so many unhappy people that come to Rochester for treatments. I mean, they're they've ruined our downtown. I mean, I've fallen three times on them bricks, you know, and if they're gonna tell me what kind of shoes to wear, then that's not right.
But I mean and then I had a sales rep looking for my store, couldn't find it because those digging trees that you put in are so tall and so wide, you can't see the businesses. Now why I mean, you had to take all that parking. I mean, if you could take that back and you'd still have a big sidewalk for people to walk on and, you know, and I talk to people in wheelchairs and and a cane. They are just livid because try it once and and go on there with the wheel. Even my the UPS man says the same thing. It's just bouncy like this. I mean, do you think it's a good idea?
I mean, it's awful. Like the Peace Closet was beautiful before with the green grass and the blue paint and the lights look like water with the big fountain. Now what do you got? A big ugly looking brown? Nothing. You know? And and then these bricks, I mean, you know, I don't know this positively, but I'm pretty sure. I mean, every mayor that we've had, like I said, I've been on the twenty four years. Every mayor that we've had has always come into the businesses and say, how are you doing? That mayor has never come in one time. Done nothing. And another thing that I was told by one of my customers that,
you know, these bricks that you're putting in, they're not good for Minnesota. And you know what the mayor told him? So what? So, you know, I mean, it it it's it's it's not pretty down there anymore. It used to be very pretty. I mean, I just don't know what you're trying to get at. I mean, people, they don't like to come downtown at all. That's the biggest thing I hear. And then you try to watch those people try to figure out how to use the, parking meters. You know, when it was thirty minutes, that was awful. But now you got them for three hours. That's really bad because there's so many people that are working, they can feed the meter.
Thank you, sir. Sorry? Thank you. Your time is up. Oh, sorry. Thank you. Thank you very much. Next up is I believe it's a kind of a scroll here, but I think it's Barry Skolnick. I will come to recognize your scroll. Thank you very much. It's sloppy handwriting. I just want to again talk about Peace Plaza. There's two specific aspects one of them is who is it for? It should be for everyone. Can you speak into the mic? No. No. It was on. Turn it back on. Speak. There you go. Okay. It should be for everyone.
It isn't just for people who are able-bodied. It should be for everyone. The second thing is I'm concerned about that they're always saying that that it's an inspirational poem. Most people can't even read the poem. And I and those that have, some people think it's a novelty. I don't remember anyone really, may except some people on the DMC board saying it was inspirational. Inspirational to whom? Is this the best that we can do for Rochester, a city that wants to be the first class city? Please make it something for everyone that people everyone likes,
or 90% of the people like. I also want to mention that there should be errors in omissions insurance on all major capital projects. We don't have them on some. Why wasn't it filed? If they knew there were problems with the bricks and and and why wasn't it filed to have insurance? Why aren't the R and T builders paying for it instead of us having to pay for it? I don't understand that, and if you if they didn't do it this time, please do it in the future so that we have errors and emissions insurance on
all major projects, so that if there's a problem the the contractor has to come in and fix it. Not us, them. And I and that's not been happening, so I would just appreciate it if you would put that in all contracts and look into if we can still use it in this case too because we shouldn't be paying for that. It's been known for three years at least. Thank you very much. Thank you, mister Skolnick. And finally, we have, Nara Anderson. Good evening, mayor, council president Schoebring, and council members. I'm Nora Anderson. I live here in Rochester,
I'm here tonight to share my voice as an active and engaged business owner in Downtown Rochester. As I know, we'll be discussing the Peace Plaza, probably at length this evening. But for the past two and a half years, I have been charged with activating the Peace Plaza and the historic Chateau Theater by increasing programming activities in that space. I've had the privilege of seeing the community come together in a number of different ways in that space from everyday lunchtime and happy hour live music on the plaza where people can gather, and enjoy the talent that we have in this community,
sharing their music and their art with the community, hosting several community events. We launched a family event play on the plaza last summer that brought hundreds of families downtown every weekend to play and gather and connect with the community in that space. I'm also an artist. I have a deep appreciation for public art and its place in our community. And I do understand that there are concerns around the pavers and what we've had with them. But I do want to reflect on the fact that we've had such increased activation
and foot traffic and business in that space since the heart of the city remodel has been completed and the chateau has reopened. I speak there has been no, I believe, increase in the reports of trips and falls. Although I do know that the raised lettering on the papers does. I will not deny that it does create a hazard for some who have abilities different than myself. But I do urge you to speak with those who work and live in this space, who will be directly impacted by the work that is done to repair this.
I believe that the work that's recommended by the city and the DMCC group to make these phased incremental repairs is a step in the right direction rather than considering a broad renovation of the plaza, which will have massive impacts on the business owners and the community who have grown to use and build this space. And I just want to carry forward the love this space. And I just wanna carry forward the momentum that we've gained in the past couple of years. So I'll be happy to assist you. That's all I have on the sign up sheet. Is there anyone else who wishes to be heard during public comment? Seeing no one, I will close public comment and ask,
clerk Giesler to call the roll. Council member Keane. Here. Council member Miller. Here. Council member Wall. Here. Council member Fredericks. Here. Council member Palmer. Here. Council member Doring. Here. Council president Schoebring. Here. Mayor Norton. Present. Next up on our agenda is the city next up on our agenda is the city administrator's report. Administrator Zelms, take it away. Thank you, council president, council members, mayor Norton. Lots of members of the public here today. I always start my report by thanking our teammates, wherever they're working for acting with respect, integrity, safety, and excellence in mind,
when they go about their work. So thanks to everyone, who serves the city of Rochester and the community of Rochester, with the city organization for all that you do. A couple a couple of forthcoming things that I'm hoping the slide will advance, but my friends at the clerk's office will help me. We do have upcoming some Minnesota parks in residence. You may recall that there in February are artists in residence with, Cassandra Buck at Oxbow. And in March, that is coming to Quarry Hill Nature Center. So March from ten to 10AM to 3PM,
there will be activities free and open to all. And then on fourteenth and fifteenth, that will be from 2PM to 5PM. So I'd encourage you to check that out. Also, that means next slide. Is coming up at the Rochester Public Library. We have another free event for, primarily youth between the ages of six and 12. We encourage you to also bring your parents with you, from 02:30 to three p 03:30PM at the Library Auditorium on Saturday, February 22. We, have some great alliteration. We want you to build some wheelie wild vehicles. So, come out, if you're a fan of LEGOs or if you want to become a fan of
LEGOs. Also, downtown on Monday evenings, every Monday night, through, I believe, April and perhaps, farther farther on from six to eight PM, there is free group dance lessons. Starting off with the dance lessons for those of us who need more lessons and then moving on, to, having, be able to practice what you've, learned. And then on coming up on the February 28, actually starting from 05:45PM to 06:45PM, there's a community resource fair at the Civic Center followed by The Sound of Music. Excuse me. I get that wrong every time.
The Sound of Gospel Music, and that will be at the Mayo Civic Center at Presentation Hall. Again, Friday, February 28. The concert starts at 7PM. You can get your tickets either at the box office Tuesday Wednesday through Friday, by calling or, through Ticketmaster. They're $15, for the concert portion, so something to check out. That was, partially funded by the city of Rochester. And finally, we do have a public music series coming March 8, from seven to 08:30PM, also at the Historic Theater. This is a ticketed event. So even for the children that are 12 and under,
you still need to go, and get a ticket. So we make sure that we're not over capacity in the building, but you can do that at Rochester Public Music's website. You go to the city of Rochester's website, Rochestermn.gov, find public music, or if you use a search site and search for, taiko arts Midwest Rochester Public Music, it will take you right there, to be able to get your tickets. So we would encourage you to come out. This is part of the sound school program that public music puts on, and there will be also performing at 10, local public elementary schools, starting on March 2.
So this is the culmination of of that week, and that's all I have. Thank you, administrator Zelms. And, moving on to the mayor's report, mayor Norton. Thank you, mister chair. And I'm going to ask your permission to go to the Absolutely. I would like to invite, Doctor. Rick Vom, who is here. Doctor. Kvom, could you join me up here? I've invited one of our residents here today and I'm gonna embarrass him I'm sure, but he can handle it. Doctor. Kvam studied music at Harvard University in Massachusetts, Choral Conducting from the University of Cincinnati's Conservatory of Music.
He earned his medical degree from the Mayo Medical School and completed a residency at Mayo School of Graduate Medical Education. Doctor. Gvam has been an emergency medical physician in Rochester, Minnesota associated with Olmsted Medical Center. If I get anything wrong, point it out. In 1985, Rick founded and was the conductor of the Choral Arts Ensemble here in Rochester, which has been inspiring audiences throughout Southeast Minnesota with performances of outstanding choral music for forty years. The singers are active community members from a wide variety of professions,
including teachers, farmers, doctors, bankers, computer technicians, and church leaders. All drawn together to create excellent music and contribute to the artistically thriving life, and an artistically thriving life. Rick recently, in 2024, retired as that conductor. Rick Kvaum also started the honors choir and auditioned high school choir in 1992. It grew to 90 students within three years. Currently around 300 singers enroll each season, little more, little less depending on the year. Over thirty two years of existence,
over 2,000 singers have participated directly as members of an honors choir ensemble and thousands of young people have experienced choral music through area school outreach performances. Under Rick's leadership, the honors choir gained many recognitions over the years, including a two thousand and one Arts Organization of the Year award by the Southeast Minnesota Arts Council. They've traveled nationally and internationally and they would come to sing in City Hall Atrium in the last number of years, I don't know how many years, bringing joy to our employees and experiencing the really stunning sound that you can hear
in our atrium. I also want to say that I post on Facebook and my Facebook page videos of Doctor. Kvam's honors choir had 640,000 views on one of them. Think about that internationally. And over 35,000 views on another one I posted. My most watched posts ever. Hands down. So, I'm gonna step over here. Doctor. Grom was inducted into the Minnesota Music Hall of Fame in 2016. Not quite as prestigious as that,
I did want to recognize and thank Doctor. Rick Gvam for sharing his passion and skills with our community for the past forty years by giving him a key to the city. Thank you very much Doctor. Prahm. Thank you all. Congratulations, doctor Kavan. I have a couple other quick things. One, do we have any members of the Rochester Olmstead Youth Council here today? I was hoping we'd have some. They will be coming periodically to, our council, both city council and county board meetings and so I just wanted to point out that, these are this is a cosponsored group,
the city and county cosponsored this group of young people. It is for youth 12 or 14 to 20 years old, so we do take some college students in that group periodically as well. And I wanted to let you know that, membership is open to any high school or local college age student who lives and attends a school in Olmsted County. So it goes beyond the city. And applications are open now. So if you know of any youth who might be interested, please spread the word. Also this past week was love your immigrant neighbors day, and we had many people out in the front of this building and downtown on
Peace Plaza. And, on behalf of our community or our city, I went to most of our immigrant serving organizations and dropped off kisses on again, we've mentioned this, the Germany Japan trip is, the Japan trip in particular is starting to fill up and I want to let folks know that we hope by mid March to have that nailed down for sure. It looks like, the Japan trip is gonna go for sure. We've got a little bit longer to wait for Germany. And thank you all for your time and, and again to congratulate doctor Kavam for and thank him,
really, for all he's done for this community over the past forty years. That's it for me. Thank you, mayor. And moving on to our order of the agenda, are there any changes to the agenda? Seeing none, is there a motion to approve the agenda? I'll move to approve it. Move. Yeah. Second. Moved by, moved by council member Keane and seconded by council member Wall. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed say nay. Motion carries. Onto our consent agenda. I have no items that are being pulled from the consent agenda today.
Is that correct? Seeing none, is there a motion to approve the consent agenda? So moved. Is Second. Moved by, council member Fredericks and seconded by council member Keane. All in favor say aye. Aye. On all except I abstain from item f point four. Noted. All opposed say nay. No. So, so, so, we have all in favor, except, council member Dohring is abstaining from f four. Moving on to our public hearings.
We have four public hearings on our agenda this evening, and before we begin, I just wanna take a moment to clarify the process for each public hearing. We will first hear a staff introduction, or presentation on the item. If there is an applicant, they or their representative will then have ten minutes, to discuss the item, and then I will open the public hearing. Members of the public have up to five minutes each to, as I said with the, open comment period to be concise and,
also if, others have shared the same themes, try to add additional, points. And, then I will close the public hearing. And if there's an applicant, they will have up to five minutes, to, to rebut or, discuss any questions that came up during the public hearing, and then we will invite council members to, question staff or the applicant. So with that, we will start with our first public hearing which is the Pill Hill Historic Landmark District and I believe,
Community Development's Molly Patterson Lundgren is going to be kicking us off here. Thank you, council president Schubert, mayor Norton, members of the city council. That does not look like my slides that I sent today. So let me just see. Okay. K. There we go. That looks more like what I was expecting to see. Okay. Okay. So tonight, I'm going to be talking to you about, a request from neighbors in, Southwest Rochester,
the Pill Hill neighborhood. It's a name that we're all familiar with, partly because the property, the neighborhood is already listed on the national register district. So I wanted to start off with this because this is a common kind of question that I hear. What's the difference between the national register or national register property and one that is locally designated? A national register property is one that has gone through a process, led by the State Historic Preservation Office, and the federal government. It's registered, with the Department of Interior,
and it is a way that we, on a federal level, look at properties, that have historic significance to local communities, states, indeed, even the, the entire United States. The teeth in these is really focused only on if there are federal funds or federal permits. There are some state programs that rely on the national register listing, but there really aren't any requirements, in terms of changes to property. There isn't anything that we as the local government do to regulate or oversee those.
So that's where we started, with this, and, the applicants actually, coming forward were familiar with that, but came to me and asked, you know, could they do a local landmark? So our local program is established under our unified development code. It includes the ability to look at building and site structures, objects, and districts. So when I refer to a historic property more loosely, I'm referring to any or all of those types of resources designated as historic properties.
Again, in this case tonight, we're looking at a historic district. Under the unified development code we have a specific set of criteria that we look at, which a property has to meet before we can consider designating it. So we have criteria for historic significance, right? That's about how or why it's important to us as a community. And then we have historic integrity, and that's a measure of how much it's changed over time. I'm going to go briefly into these and talk a little bit about that in
a minute. But what's proposed tonight, again, is a district. It includes 105 contributing buildings, 22 non contributing buildings. These are all homes. The historic district also includes one site, which is a public park, the city park, St. Mary's Park, and one structure, which is the water tower. So when we look at districts, we're looking at not just a collection of individual properties, but we're also looking at sort of how those individual properties, kind of are create an atmosphere as part of an area of the city.
Right? It's oftentimes greater than a sum of its parts. Contributing properties are those that are part of what makes the place significant, historically significant. So again, we've got eight different criteria that can be considered for historic significance. And, the applicant, and the consultant have identified five of those. You only need one, but there's five of them. I concur with the application that it does, meet these criteria. Historic integrity is something that is kind of hard sometimes to get a handle on.
I think the term integrity people think, well, you know, what does that mean? Does that mean my property is worth doesn't isn't worth as much or, you know, I've made all these changes. That means it should be kind of considered more important or or, maybe a higher value. Historic integrity isn't about value and it isn't even about condition. It's really a measure of how much has changed with the property. When we're talking about a district, how much has changed with the district over time. We're also looking at how much has changed with contributing properties within the district,
right, so the buildings, the water tower, the park, so how much each of those individual contributing properties have changed over time. We look at location, right design. Location obviously for a neighborhood doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. But if you're talking about a building or an object that can get picked up and moved, that would have lost its historic integrity of location if that was to happen with with a building. Setting. Right? It was built, the the neighborhood was developed here between, the the Mayo Clinic downtown, St. Mary's Hospital up on a hill.
It has to, it relates to those, those properties, those institutions within the city. Obviously, it remains integrity to to the setting of that hilltop location where it was where it was built. Workmanship feeling, you know, those are really the workmanship in particular is really about the buildings. Oftentimes you can see the craftsman, kind of the craftsmanship, cut stone, you know, the woodwork of of the homes. So it has a high integrity, historic integrity to the period of significance. The application review and process and and this image actually is a clip from,
the neighborhood informational meeting. So this process is shared with the neighborhood as part of the process when people are invited to participate and talk about what's going on with a proposal. The process again started back in summer of twenty twenty three when, property owners contacted me and contacted the heritage preservation, attended preservation meetings, HPC meetings, I should say, and, said, you know, talk there's talk of some changes to, regulations in our neighborhood. We were looking at some zoning,
rezoning within the city, and, they said, we're a historic district. You know, how does that fit? At that point, I explained the difference between the explained the difference between the national register and our local program and indicated to the property owners, and the HPC indicated that they were supportive of them moving forward, but really said, you know, we can either roll this into our heritage preservation program that we are continuing to work on with, individual properties year by year, or you as property owners have, have the ability,
the opportunity to take this on and to really build a grassroots effort, and to get a study done and to submit an application. So before they did that, they held several meetings. And I'm going to let them really talk more about that. But they reached out to neighbors, started to garner support for the process, continued to update the HPC as they went along, ended up having the neighborhood informational meeting, again a requirement of this, that was in early January, and submitted their final application,
which went to the Heritage Preservation Commission at the January. So we are at the point now where it is coming to you. This is a zoning overlay, so this takes council action. This would be done by an ordinance after you make a decision tonight. And, public hearing tonight for you to hear from those who want to speak to this. One of the things that I did want to mention, though, too, with this slide is that what happens after this? There's a lot of questions and that's really what it comes down to. Why do we do this and what is this all about? So that last box,
which is kind of that long rectangle there, it has a QR code that takes you to the CITI website, which was updated last year. And, it takes you to a couple of different, sub pages, including one that, provides information to what are the requirements of landmark properties. So, again, historic district is one type of landmark So again, historic district is one type of landmark property. Contributing buildings to that district would also be treated as a landmark property. We have adopted design guidelines that are in there. We've got an explanation of the process,
and we continue to grow and build that resource. And here's a clip from those adopted design guidelines. These were adopted in 2022, tend to be, kind of inclusive of all types of historic properties, so we don't really get into detail of, you know, how to choose windows or something like that for your building. It's really established, as an overview of how to proceed with a historic property. The design guidelines that were adopted at that time were developed in such a way that,
that they can be expanded and they can be, updated, to further explain more details. So, you know, we could get into, more information about something like, you know, how to preserve a home, residential property versus a commercial property, yet they are there. They're available for folks, and it explains this process of type I, type II review after designation occurs. So, I'll certainly be able to answer questions if you have any for me at this time. I fall back a little bit because I know that the applicants also want to
share their story, of proceeding through this process, and kind of why they are doing this and kind of their love for their neighborhood. But on January 28, the HPC did make a recommendation, went through the process and held the public hearing, and they are recommending to the city council to designate the neighborhood, as defined by the map, as a historic district. And, staff concurs with that recommendation. Thank you, miss Patterson Lundgren. We'll, I'm sure, have questions for you at this point. I think I'll, ask the applicant to step forward and,
identify yourself. And as a, looks like a group, you have ten minutes to, discuss the application. Great. Can you give me the clicker? No. I can't do it. Oh, for sure. Council members, mayor, hi. My name is Dan Larson. I'm a resident in Pill Hill. I, just wanna acknowledge what a privilege it is to be here. Mister Larson, if you can get just a little closer to the mic. There you go how's this perfect oh great oh thank you thank you very much so yes I'm I'm here and I'm just very very excited and honored to to
be able to present to you our proposal for for Pill Hill our our local landmark district district for local designation. To, reiterate, we I can just kind of go through these slides, first and foremost, why are why are we doing this? What's the difference between local and national? And it's right there. So the national register is a great honor, but it does not protect our historic structures from significant alteration or demolition. So the local landmark designation is what we're seeking which provides those protections. I'll try this clicker, oh it worked. I also get to do the fun part tonight as in I just wanna tell
you what's so interesting and great about Pill Hill, what makes it significant. I see kind of four main categories of, of of why it is significant. Number one, the architecture. Right there you see unique, irreplaceable architectural gems built by expert craftsmen. These are houses that were built, typically between the two world wars, in in architectural style and in a manner of of craft that is not seen, again today. So in contrast to the loss of historic buildings downtown, Pill Hill is remarkably intact. I just wanted to add one. Did you know did you know that Prairie and craftsman style houses are really the
first truly American residential architectural styles that don't mimic European designs. I thought that was kind of interesting. Pill Hill has dozens of prairie and craftsman style homes, that are very important and so many other types of historic homes and stylized architecture in this present. The history that's, Pill Hill represents the beginnings of Mayo Clinic and modern medicine, including Nobel Prize winners Edward Kendall and Luis Alvarez. Earlier in the last century, it was actually common for celebrities seeking care at the world famous Mayo Clinic at the time, to actually stay at the homes of their doctors or visit the homes of their
doctors in Pill Hill. Names like Lou Gehrig, Ernest Hemingway, Jack Dempsey, and even family members of American presidents, like FDR and JFK have been packed in homes in in Pill Hill which is which is really really interesting. The number of leaders in medicine in Pill Hill including founders of whole departments at Mayo, presidents of medical societies, discoverers of techniques, diseases, treatments, tools, syndromes, it kinda makes your head spin for, all of this, interesting stuff. The location, it's it's walkable. It was treasured for being walkable to work, and it serves that same, same purpose today.
And, also, number four and maybe is even number no. It should be number one is the shared community is that everyone walks through Pill Hill, enjoys it. It's listed on Mayo Clinic as a as a place to, receive rest. Go for a walk between appointments or when you're waiting for someone to recover. It just serves that purpose. Next slide. So the process, actually, miss Patterson did a great job explaining the process, so I won't, belabor this too much. I wanna focus on the neighborhood engagement. It has been a great joy to get to know all of my neighbors, and the the engagement from neighbors has been so, so positive,
and and thankful and supportive. So it was great to see that. Additional support from the district includes historic Southwest Neighborhood Association and it has a letter and a unanimous approval from the HBC as mentioned as well as the state of Minnesota's heritage preservation office. With that, I want to hand it off to my Co Chair, Martha Grogan, who can tell us a little bit more about the National Register and where we're starting. Thanks, Dan. I'm Martha Grogan and our third Co Chair, Bobby Prit, could not be with us today. So again, we're super excited to be here after an eighteen month journey working on this district.
Let's just start with the money. What's the map? Everyone wants to know what are we talking about. So we started with the National Register boundary, as you see on the left. And, the bottom line is that Pill Hill is amazingly intact. Only two of the homes on the National Register have been demolished. And the boundary that we drew is almost exactly the same as the National Register. It was found to be valid. Most of the changes that occurred had to do with land divisions that have happened or clearing up, some of the parcel lines. So a boundary is really important for a historic district.
Our consultant, Bethany, will tell you it's challenging. It's complex, it has to do with the integrity and the historic context, but also the topography in this case. So it is a pretty big deal establishing the boundary. Just to let you know, it's really not all giant homes. There are a variety of homes within Pill Hill. That's one reason the district is so important. It's not just the big kind of important homes that get protected. It's the others that really add the feeling to this neighborhood. As far as what does this mean to property owners?
Molly reviewed this with you. Also, eventually, it can involve you as city council. So the bottom line is minor things like what color are you painting your house, those kinds of maintenance things are not restricted under this process, nothing on the interior of the home. For contributing properties then major additions, things that require permit, those need to be reviewed by the HPC. If there's a conflict, then those might be appealed to city council. If a house needs to be a demolition of a contributing property,
it has to to have public hearings. Now non contributing, and you might wonder why are they even in there? Well, they're within the boundary. These are usually newer homes that were built later or properties that don't have as much historical integrity. But they contribute to the district and the reason they're really important is actually looking down the road. District. So, you know, if you think of even the national registered district, it's been there thirty five years now. So you can imagine that you can actually improve the feeling of the district by having a these reviews and they're usually done within one to two days. So there's really not a lot of,
restriction here. What are some of the things that we've heard from people? Well, the great thing is that we've really had overwhelmingly positive response. We've only heard from about 2% of property owners who have expressed any concern about the district. Most people when they hear what the restrictions are, they're willing to accept them for the goal of preserving these historic structures and the good for generations to come. Some of these restrictions actually are not really much more restrictive than a homeowners association.
The housing needs are important because this historic overlay does not prevent changes in zoning. So if you think of historic districts in London, those are row houses that were residential. Now they may be used for commercial properties and so they can be modified. So we're not freezing Phil Hill in time. And there are really, not really great alternatives. And then I'll just highlight one part of the boundary. If you look at the map, you'll see the north boundary is right there on Third Street, right next to our transit oriented district on Second Street. So it's a very important kind of gateway.
And there is going to be a little discussion about one home there, and I just want to show you that if we modify the map, it's right in the middle. So I'm going to go on to Bethany, our consultant, and we're thrilled to have her here. I'm Bethany Gladhill. Thank you for letting me be with you today. I'm a Saint Paul based preservation consultant. After I received my terminal degree in preservation from Goucher twenty five years ago. I've been in the field working in everything from national register nominations, historic context, districts, design guidelines, just finished up a civil rights project in Waterloo,
Iowa. So, preservation has a really wide range of activities. But the important things that I came to it, much like you did, I sat on a district council and realized the importance of preservation as a tool for community development. And not just physical community development, not just the ways that you can use these buildings to make your community better, but how that unites people, how that brings people together in a sense of place that we've referred to in that shared community. A couple quick things about the summary of findings. Again, remarkably intact and comprehensive. It was in 1990.
It still is. This is an amazing resource you have. Integrity is excellent throughout, really well showing the kinds of homes that were in that area and that part of history, but not freezing it in time, having those areas. Some huge benefits of historic district. You'll hear from every preservationist that the greenest home is an old home. That this is remarkably more sustainable than much new use. It creates skilled jobs that stay and keep money in the economy, give that sense of place and is an important element of heritage tourism in which it's found that people stay longer and spend more,
about 30% more in each park. A couple of important features there, we've referred to the topography and how that's important in the way the area looks. The integrity, very complete, gives that sense of place. I can't think of a more intact district that speaks so well of the community, and I commend you in having this resource. Thank you. And you will be able to come back and, and answer any questions that may come up during the public hearing. Thank you so much. So at this at this time, I will open the public hearing and a reminder to folks that you will have
five minutes. You don't have to use all five minutes, but there is a, light there. And so I have a list here, and we'll start with Renee Rice. Hi. Good evening, Mayor Norton and council members. Just a little bit more, we'll hear you better. Good evening, mayor Norton and and council members. Thank you for allowing me to speak. Sir, I'm just a little nervous. No problem. Just take your time. Take a deep breath. My name is Renee Rice. I live at 825 Third Street Southwest. I purchased that house with my brother, Bob Rice, and George Montalette.
I'm here to ask that my property be removed from the proposed historic district. We are not considered historically. We are considered the non contributing, property. We are we are, no one famous has ever lived there. It was built in 1955. And as they showed the '19 design guidelines, our house has zero. We purchased the property a year and a half ago to rent out affordable housing to male personnel and people traveling and to hopefully at some point use the old
tennis court for parking and an affordable housing unit. And that process has been difficult going through those stages of trying to get this done. And it's a year and a half later, and we have made a lot of headway. And I do fear that this process would make that more difficult in adding more steps to the process. With the, question of individual property rights, I ask that we not be forced into this since we really don't have any qualities that these houses have,
and we are on the very edge of the proposed district. So we're hoping it could be removed without a great deal of difficulty. Thank you very much. Thank you, miss Rice. Next up, we have Alex Ball. President Schubert, thank you very much. My name is Alex Ball. My wife and I own a home at 802 Fourth Street Southwest in Rochester, Minnesota. This is inside the proposed landmark district. Some of what I will say I am going to admit right off the bat is going to be repetitive of some things you've heard before. One of the important things about democracy,
however, is not just what people think, but how many people think that way. So I'm going to go ahead and repeat some things you've heard. February 7 post bulletin article highlighted the impending sale and demolition of a 106 year old house, 200 And Nineteenth Sixth Avenue Southwest, to make way for a planned 12 story apartment building. Now this is just a few blocks outside of the Pill Hill local landmark district that is being proposed. Its proximity underscores the vulnerability of this historic neighborhood to developmental pressures.
According to the post bulletin story, the home's owner expressed regret over the sale but ultimately felt that to resist the influence of powerful interests was beyond their capability. The offered price 1,400,000 which represented a 347% return on investment for approximately thirteen years demonstrates the immense financial power that can be leveraged against our historic neighborhoods. This sale is a stark reminder that once those structures are gone,
they will be gone forever. An indefinite course that we continue to follow without reason. A community's identity depends on preserving elements of its past. Historic neighborhoods serve as a tangible guide to where we've been And they show us the direction in which we want to go. Beyond the histories of the Mayo brothers and the other physicians who settled those homes, those houses represent the craftsmanship of a bygone era. As you've heard, many materials and techniques that are used in those structures are now very rare, some even lost to history.
These homes are not just residences, they are irreplaceable works of art. And as such, they are also a testament to the working class artisans who brought them into being. While it's true that Pill Hill once was home to the city's most elite residents, this is no longer completely the case. Today Rochester's highest value homes are located in newer developments much further from the city center. And it's important to point out that Bill Hill is not a gated community. It's an open and a shared space. Health care workers, visitors, patients,
they often stroll our quiet streets and relax in our parks. You'll see trolleys full of tourists weave through the neighborhood getting glimpses into our rich past. The homeowners in Pill Hill are not seeking to preserve this area just for themselves, but for the benefit of this entire city. At their own expense I might add. While Pill Hill remains a comfortable neighborhood, it's not immune to the financial pressures of development. Without protection, individual homeowners can face offers that are much too large to refuse leading to the slow erosion of the neighborhood's historical character.
Establishing this local landmark district would provide real protection by requiring the historic preservation commission and the city staff to review before demolitions or major exterior renovations occur. It is also important to note that it would not impose restrictions on homeowners that want to carry out interior renovations, routine maintenance, painting their mechanism that enforces a pause to consider the ramifications of any action which once done could erase a piece of our city's history forever.
So creating this landmark district is very important. Homeowners will still be able to make renovations as I said in additions that align with the the character of the neighborhood. Goal isn't to change the neighborhood, but just to ensure that Rochester does not lose an irreplaceable part of its history. The council has an opportunity to preserve a neighborhood that has played a pivotal role in Rochester's medical and cultural history. And I strongly urge you to support the recommendation of the Historic Preservation Commission and create the Pill Hill local landmark district before it's too late.
Once our history is gone, we cannot get it back. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ball. Next up we have Kenneth Philbrick. Thank you very much for, for hearing my testimony today. I apologize like the prior speaker that I think for many of us who live on Pill Hill, you'll hear many common themes that are going to be reiterated. The thing I'd like to highlight, first of all, though, is really the thriving community that we live in in Rochester. So when we think about Rochester, and particularly the downtown, our greater downtown core for Rochester,
we are really fortunate. And I think often we forget. It's very, very easy to forget when you live in a community that other communities are not like ours. When I go back and visit my parents back in Oregon, their downtown core is in it's falling apart. People are moving out of the core. Businesses are moving out. It's not functional. If you look at our downtown core, we have residential, we have commercial, we have the hospital. And all of this and Pill Hill is a capstone for this on top of
the hill, I guess, because that's where it is. They, and when we think about what Pill Hill brings our community, our Pill Hill brings our community, it's it's really it's it's living in vibrant history which is maintained by Rochester residents. So, like, my wife and I, we maintain our home, and we make this over the this last year, just as one example of this, and preserving the character of the home is something that is is very important to us. In the last year, we had a failing, failing wall on the outside.
And we went and went through multiple contractors to find a contractor who would come back to our house and would bring in local stone and rebuild a retaining wall on the outside of the house that was consistent with the character of the home. When you move into a historic home, one of the things that you find is you find binders and folders. And in our case, what we found when we moved into our historic home was an entire filing cabinet
filled with historic documents that go back to 1921. So an example of a deed for the house, and, you know, I commend the the writing when you go back to 1921 because the script is just phenomenal. Then you go to you go to the nineteen fifties. And, you know, thank goodness I that know that this is still in mint condition. So if you need to know where to go in, in case of nuclear disaster in Rochester, this was published by the city and we found this. It was in a folder in our home that was stated for said,
in case of nuclear war, this is where to go. And for all of you who do want to know, it is the hospital, it is the recommended place, which is probably a good thing. When we think about so it's not just those of us who live in the community, but Pill Hill also functions so I have the opportunity to work from work from my house, stare out the window. And when I'm staring out the window in the middle of the day, what do I see going by? But it's trolley after trolley. Sometimes they're back to back. It's not just trolleys, but it's the walkers and and the just the people through the community.
So I see people coming up, from the hospital, people, nurses walking back and forth during their lunch hours. It's a vibrant residential public park. And this last year, when in the middle of my work day, right between two meetings, thankfully, there was a knock at our door. And what was I greeted by, but a couple who had moved back to Rochester, and the father of the family had previously lived at our house. And he wanted to show the house and the backyard to his,
younger children. And it was just a joy to be able to extend extend this. And what what I'm trying to capture is Pill Hill represents this this opportunity. It's this thing that we have. It's it is unique to Rochester. It is really gold for our community. And it's important not just to those of us who live to have the opportunity and the fortune to be able to live in Pill Hill, but also to our broader community. It speaks to all of Rochester. It speaks to our culture as Rochesterites,
just as much as a corn water tower. Thank you very much, and I look forward to hearing your approval of our motion. Thank you, Mr. Filbrick. Next up, we have Barb Hudson. Hello. My name is Barb Hudson. The last couple of speakers have kinda taken my thunder, so I won't read everything I have. Just to say that I'm kinda from the other side of the tracks. I am not from Pill Hill, never lived there, and, I have visited several of the homes there, and they are beautiful. But I live in Northwest Rochester, and I really like my neighborhood.
But Pill Hill is my favorite neighborhood. And I say that because of everything everybody else has said. And I'd also like to say that if the federal government in their historic district, decision to, designate it as a historic district and the state of Minnesota, SHPO, has already said they would like to see it designated as a historic district. And the Heritage Preservation Commission here in Rochester has agreed it should be a historic, district. I am certainly hoping that you on the council will preserve it and give it
the landmark status that it deserves. Thank you. Thank you, miss Hudson. Next up, we have Jacob Mowetz. Good evening, everybody. I'll be brief. I I won't use the full five minutes, but just want to give my emphatic endorsement of this. I, live spent a lot of time working with an architect, working with the builder to ensure that the, you know, we didn't use stucco board, we used real stucco, You know, making sure that all the woodwork was, in keeping with the original structure, and hope that you will, approve this, ordinance. Thank you. Thank you, mister Mowetz. Next up, we have, Noreen, Pinara. I'm sorry.
I've got it all wrong. You're gonna have to It's a handwriting. So, mayor Can you can you repeat your names? Yeah. It's Naveen Pereira. Naveen Pereira. And no, the new restaurant Pereira's does not belong to me. Oh, okay. So I just wanted to make sure. So, Mayor, council members, thank you for this opportunity. So I'm a have been a resident of, Rochester, Minnesota now for eighteen years and a proud Rochester, Minnesota now for eighteen years and a proud resident. And I want to give you a personal perspective of having lived in Rochester. So I live in a house that was built in 1934. It was designed by an architect called Ed Lundy.
And Ed Lundy is a nationally famous architect just like Crawford and his architectural drawings are archived at the University of Minnesota. It is a labor of love to live in a house that old because we are constantly engaged in repairs, etcetera. But I feel it's my joy to do that and it's a service to the community and my neighborhood. The first owner of the house was Doctor. Mandrick Comfort, one of the first gastroenterologists who was brought in by Charlie Mayo. He described a condition called hereditary pancreatitis.
The second owner was Vernon Maddox. He was the one who worked in isolating cortisone that helped win the Nobel Prize. And the house is still wondering who I am, the third owner of the house, but I'm privileged to be there. I also wanted to give you my perspective of having lived in Charleston, South Carolina before I moved to Rochester. And my wife wondered a lot as to why I moved to Rochester from Charleston, but I don't know if you'll have visited Charleston, but Charleston has a very internationally recognized preservation society that was founded in 1920.
And it had almost a paranoid mission of preserving the character of Charleston. And that success over the past hundred plus years is displayed today because although the historic core of Charleston Peninsula that's almost jealously guarded by this preservation society remains as is, but the community around that historical core has absolutely thrived, both from a commercial business perspective and in drawing huge number of people to Charleston.
So although I didn't live in that historic core district, I was proud of it and I was proud to be a community member of Charleston. On the other hand, I visited Savannah, Georgia over the years while I lived in Charleston and the historic Savannah Foundation was founded in 1955 and it was a little bit too late for them because that historic Downtown Savannah, if you've ever visited, there's a part of it that's been developed and transformed.
No one wants to visit that area. No Savannah resident or Georgia resident is proud of that developed area of Savannah. And when residents saw that transformation take place, that led to the impetus to form the Savannah Historical Foundation. And then the rest is history. You get horse carriage tours and you have the beautiful character of Savannah still there, again drawing huge number of retirees to that area. So I would urge you to really consider this.
As one of the speakers said, it's not going to come back if it's gone. I believe the attraction of what we managed to preserve in the area is attracting developers and once it's gone, it's gone. So please consider maintaining the historic designation of Pill Hill. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And next up we have Loring Stead. Hello, mayor and council. Loring Stead. Two one seven, Fourteenth Avenue Southwest. I am not a resident of Pill Hill. Never lived in Pill Hill. None of our families have.
But to really capture the, culture and passion, I encourage you all to join us any Saturday night. We meet up at Saint Mary's Park. There's a group of us that walk the north side of the road down Fourth Street, down past the foundation out to Seventh Avenue, turn around and come back and walk down, the south side, turn south on Ninth Avenue down to Eighth Street, over to Tenth Avenue, and up to Tenth Avenue. Please do that sometime this summer. You'll get a feel of what the passion is, what the culture of that.
This area is just not about architecture, history, location, and shared community. It's the culture of Rochester. Please pass this. Thank you. Thank you, doctor Stead. That's all I have on my sign up sheet. If there are others that wish to speak, step forward and state your name. And I see someone coming up to the podium. State your name, and you have five minutes. Thank you. I'm Sandeep Khosla. I live at 815 Third Street Southwest. I think, the council members are probably at least familiar with my email, that I provided and I want to actually make this public record.
So at the outset, I want to just say to Renee Rice, who's our neighbor, and her LLC partner, George Montlet, I've had coffee numerous times with George. I have no nothing personal. I have had an accordion relationship with them. But the difference that George's and I have are fundamental in terms of our goals for the neighborhood. Mine is I've lived in this home for thirty eight years. It's preservation of the home and the neighborhood, not just the home, but the entire district. George, and that's more power to him,
and the LLC that Renee is part of are in it to make money. That's just the fact. The house that they purchased a year and a half ago belonged to George Waters. It was purchased for close to $1,000,000 It's now worth considerably more. It is not affordable housing. If you go to the website, it's a small there's four small bedrooms there. Each bedroom is between $1,000 and $1,800 a month. That would not qualify as affordable housing. The other George and I have talked about the ADU that they wish to build. It's a 1,000
square foot ADU. It would not be impacted in any way as a non contributing property, and you can verify that with Marley and her office. All it would need to do is conform to certain design guidelines. The concern I have, and George has told me this, is that eventually he would like to get a zoning change. And that I realize is a different issue. But the only protection we have from the eventual demolition of that property and the conversion of that critical edge, that is the edge of the historic district. That's the edge of where the Second Street Thoroughfare is.
That's the only buffer we as residents of Peel Hill have to the incursion of developers and other individuals coming in. So to the extent that George then wants to demolish this, at one point he told me he wanted to convert it into a commercial parking lot. There's a wonderful tennis court there. Now the other point I do want to make is even though it's non contributory, it's very much a part of the history of this neighborhood. That lot, 825, was actually part of our property well before we bought it.
That was subdivided in 1950s and the Waters residence, which is now the LLC ownership, was built. In fact, there's a wonderful staircase that goes down the hill to this beautiful tennis court that has now become a parking lot, which is really sad to see that happen. But that is just the start of what will happen. And again, Renee, this is nothing personal, but this is just different goals that each of us have for these properties. Our goal is to maintain the heritage that we have, and you can't just say,
well, if it's noncontributory, take me out because those properties contribute to the overall district. They contribute to the overall feel of the district, the overall value of the district. If you allow that, there are 20 other non contributory properties. They're all going to come forward and they will be at risk with developers who want to buy it. And then the whole purpose of having a historic district is undermined because you'll have essentially historic homes punctuated by whatever else developers choose to build there.
The problem is this is really prime real estate. It's close to downtown. There's enormous interest in commercial development. And if you allow some of these non contributory properties to opt out of the district, I think it's just going to destroy address is this concept of property rights. Yes, we all believe in property rights. I have property rights. But, and this came up at the HPC and the chair of the HPC commented on this, she noted, yes, there may be a few individuals who don't agree with this. But the neighborhood, 99% of the neighbors have decided this is what they want.
So the rights of that individual have to be considered in the context of the broader rights of the community that wants this. If the city council is really serious about historic preservation, I would just draw the analogy to zoning. If the neighborhood decided to have a certain zoning, I couldn't come to you and say, well, take my house out of the zoning because I don't agree with it. That's what the common good is for. So I think for all those reasons and the fact that this boundary as proposed, including 825 Third Street, was extensively vetted. There was public hearings. It's supported and approved by the HPC.
It's supported and approved by the neighborhood. It's supported and approved by the state historic society. There should be no reason to change these boundaries as they are, especially putting that entire district and that corner at risk. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Next up we have, Mr. Bransford. Step forward. Good evening, Mr. Chair, Council, Mayor. One of the reasons that I used to sit in mister Miller's seat is because of intrusive development. The Fallwell neighborhood at one point was a little island, beautiful little neighborhood, lots of families,
people walking their dogs with their kids. Then we got a huge development, and guess what we have now, several years later? A sea of rental properties. No families walking their dogs. It has completely changed. Now we have the row homes up on Sixth Avenue that are a stone's throw from Pill Hill. We had r two x come through, which I adamantly opposed and helped get out of Pill Hill and eventually voted no for because we don't need intrusive development
in in the area. Falwell, Pill Hill, what have you. You. So I I totally support this district as is, particularly for the reasons that the last speaker spoke of. They there are there are ways that the non contributing properties can do what they wanna do. So I was a strong supporter of the downtown historic District big time. I believe that I was one of the people that led that effort. We kind of you know, the boat sailed a little bit on downtown.
There are some historic properties there. We really were just throwing a bone, and I hope that we don't make the same mistake with Pill Hill, that we don't let it get eroded, that we keep that boundary as defined intact because it's gonna be nibble nibble nibble and we're gonna, guess what, have a sea of rental homes amongst the historic homes that are there now. So I strongly support keeping the boundary as is intact. I can only imagine some of the conversation that's gonna be up here.
I know how it goes, but stay the course and keep that boundary intact. Thank you. Thank you, mister Bransford. This is a public hearing. If you wish to be heard on this item, please step forward and, state your name and you have five minutes. Hi. My name is Kevin Reynolds. I'm actually the administrator of the old Rochester, Minnesota Facebook group, just short of 28,000 members. And, Dan Larson posted a post, and I pinned it to the top. Out of the fifteen years I've been running this group, I've never had such a huge response of,
people contacting me to the point where I had to tell them, I do not sit on the city council. I live in Mayowa and lived there for twenty nine years now. So I kinda live in in a little bit of a historic district myself, and I it pales in comparison though too as far as architecture overall and the depth of it that Pill Hill owns and has and their belongings. Having lived here my entire life and I was telling the group that I was gonna kinda speak on it as as a group conscious because I've I actually got notes from the East Coast,
by the way, from quite a few people that lived in Rochester, some that lived on Pillow Hill, West Coast people that contacted me and they just wanted me to say on their behalf that they are strongly wanting this this district to stay the way it is and and the boundaries to stay the way it is. And they're praying that it that it's gonna stay the way it is. I I was kind of blown away that I got this many notes like this. My group gets busier and busier all the time. And
in the immortal words of John Kreisel, you know, it's it's stewardship. He always tells me, Kevin, you're a great steward of Rochester. You know, I share a lot of history with with everybody here in the city. And I hope that you also take on that duty of stewardship and keeping this district the way it is because that's what it is. It's being a good steward of Rochester. There is one house, by the way, that's not listed in your in your information. It sits in the ground behind the three homes on the corner of Fourth Street
and Tenth Avenue. It was C. C. Wilson's home, which was called The Castle. In 1918, it burned and it was pushed into its foundation in 1922 and covered up with topsoil. Most of its belongings are still sitting in those backyards in the foundation. So that home is still there in the ground. So that's another home that you don't know about that actually should be on that list. It would be a wonderful thing to see the artifacts. What would come out of that ground if I was ever to own one of those homes. That was always something I actually would do if I could.
You know. Anyways, appreciate taking the time to listen to me and and I really hope that the the word stewardship comes into play when you make your decision. Thank you. You. Thank you, Mr. Reynolds. Next up we have Mr. Skolnick. Hi, I just want to mention a couple of things. Number one and I don't think this was mentioned in the hearing, the vote at the HPC was unanimous. There was no negative votes at all. And, the boundaries of the, that include the non contributing property were done by the consultant,
Molly and the staff looked at it very carefully and they actually believe that the boundaries should include that property because it's right on the edge and Molly everyone knows this that the staff is very flexible when they review requests from homeowners and and from people to try to make internal changes, that that they would want. So if it's at all possible, Molly and the staff will do that. I mean, I think sometimes people fear it just because they they don't want to quote lose
control, but they're not. It's just it's they're just protecting the district and so they're not gonna be able to sacrifice anything when it terms in terms of their housing, in terms of their their goals. Molly will look for the general welfare of the district and and what happens within it. So if they want something, it will probably happen. If it's something that's like something unusually bad then then maybe not. But it it it's 99% of the time, Molly will side on this and properly so with the owner.
So I don't think they have anything to worry about. That's my feeling about about that issue. Anyway, thank you very much. Thank you, mister Skolnick. This is a public hearing. If anyone else wishes to be heard on this item, please step forward, state your name, and you have five minutes. Hi. My name is John Hendrickson. I live at 820 Third Street Southwest, my wife, Andrea, and I, and we are also next door to the Koslas and the Rice House. And I think we are concerned about that house being taken out of the district,
especially if that house were to be taken down and put into, you know, a commercial property. And so, you know, we feel like we're stewards of this home. We've been here ten years. I think we're maybe only the fifth owner and it's a hundred year old property. We also, I don't know if you know, but we have this large open lot right by our house, right across from the foundation. It's almost looks like a park. You know? And that's something that we've always wanted to preserve for the neighborhood. You know? It's nothing that we would ever develop. And so we kinda come to this as, I think,
pretty much everybody here is. Like, we wanna preserve exactly the way this neighborhood is. And so I think I object to that home being taken out of the district. I think everybody has made a good point that if they do need to do parking or whatever, I'm sure the city would work with them. I'm just concerned that that house would be taken down and replaced with commercial property. Thank you. Thank you. This is a public hearing. If you wish to be heard on this item, please step forward. This is a public hearing. If you wish to be heard on this item,
please step forward. State your name. You have five minutes. Hi. My name is Katie Hyder, and I'll just be brief, but I wanna, express support for the historic preservation of the variety of families that live, from the big houses to the smaller houses. It's a really unique, attribute that we don't see in newer neighborhoods where they're more homogeneous. And I think, for us, we moved from a bigger city from Boston. And when we were looking at where we would move, that draw of this neighborhood, that historic neighborhood felt like a really big asset.
Asset. And I know I have other neighbors that have expressed that too coming in, from elsewhere, others that have grown up there their whole lives. So just, thank you for considering. Thank you. This is a public hearing. If you wish to be heard, please step forward. And you have five minutes, but you don't have to use it all. I'm Richard Roadheffer. I live at 604 Ninth Avenue Southwest for thirty seven years. I very much support this, effort. We bought the house knowing that it would take forty years to fix it up
again. We're almost there, and I expect we'll continue to work on it for for their duration. Thank you. Thank you. This is a public hearing. If you wish to be heard, please step forward. Seeing none is this is a public hearing. At this time, I will close the public hearing and invite the applicants back up, and you have five minutes to address any issues that came up during the public hearing and take it away. Thanks very much. As you can tell, we've had a lot of positive comments. It's been really consistent with,
is my whole experience this last year and a half, through this whole process. The my my chance actually has has been wonderful to talk to neighbors. A lot of people approach me with questions about what are these restrictions? They they get down to specifics. Can I have solar panels? Can I put something on top of a detached garage? And I wanted to just address my neighbor. Renee, thank you for being here. I'm sorry we haven't had a chance to talk before and I am actually really really excited to hear that you are a proponent for, affordable housing in Phil Hill. That sounds really really cool. I am so so sorry it has been really really hard for you.
It sounds like it has been a huge struggle. And and so I've not heard Mister Lawson, if you can go to the microphone, it's important for Oh, yes. Recording So I'll I'll leave for our city clerk's office. So if you can address, us, that would be great. Oh, certainly. So I, I think there might be a misconception on this particular example of of what heritage overlay the restrictions from heritage overlay a non contributing property in Pill Hill requesting an ADU, an accessory dwelling unit for affordable housing,
I don't think that would cost anything. And as far as I know, it would be approved within perhaps one day or a few business days at a type one level review, and it would be a drop in the bucket for the other challenges that a homeowner would have to go through to get an ADU, just for regular city, things and that heritage overlay would be a drop in the bucket and almost no, hindrance to doing that. And to almost no, hindrance to doing that. And to follow-up on that, one element that we discussed at the HVC is actually how valuable historic districts are in community development at this point. A number of years ago, it might have been more expensive to develop something and certainly we have people that
have put a lot of money into their homes. One of the great things about just stuff like this is that they get the help of the HPC and city staff in making appropriate changes to areas that are within guidelines that preserve the value of not just that house but that entire neighborhood that keep that neighborhood vital for everybody. So this is a great opportunity for those owners to build on ADUs and other housing that really represents that and builds and adds to the character of the neighborhood. Also bring up, there was the concept of zoning and stepping outside of it.
Bring up the fact that we wouldn't have Grand Central Station today in New York if Penn Central had prevailed in 1978. That's when it was determined that if housing was used as zoned and there was an expect for a reasonable return on investment when it was purchased and it was for the good of the whole that it was not considered a taking. That's still standard preservation law and one of the leading cases in it. Great. I just want to add a couple of comments. Again, having worked very closely with Molly and looked at these restrictions because we needed to explain them to our neighborhood.
We had many, many meetings over the past year and a half. And so I've come to understand and review them that for a non contributory property, I just don't see any real burden especially to build an accessory dwelling unit. There's not even a cost for the application and there's not really any restrictions to the design of that. It's more of an informational review and it almost certainly would be approved. Demolishing a structure is different. It doesn't require approval, but it's the replacement that is the issue.
And just showing you a couple of things though is that when you look at this property, you might say, well, wait a minute. Doesn't it look like it's on Ninth Avenue? That's Ninth Avenue there on the bottom of your screen. But you look a little more closely and you'll see, no, actually, you see that that little lane that comes is the extension of Third Street and then you see those historic homes. So this is on Third Street. It's part of the original boundary. That's why it was, done that way probably for the National Register. And right near that block,
which is an unusual block of homes, it's kind of hidden almost. Right? Adjacent to that is the foundation house. But look at these pictures. This is up on the hill. This is a clear demarcation from Second Street. And I would argue that this boundary is going to be this is gonna be the gateway to the district. So that's why it's important. It's a pretty big chunk. So I didn't show it perfectly earlier, but you if there's a change in the boundary, it seems like it needs to be for a really good reason. I just haven't heard a reason. I don't see anything that's that expensive to add to the burden of ADU.
And this is showing you from the other perspective that the cost of building something here probably has a lot more to do with the steepness of the hill and those 130 year old retaining walls than anything else. So thank you very much. Look forward to answering any more questions during the conversation. If you can have a seat and if, my colleagues have any questions for you, we will invite you back up to the microphone. With that, I will turn it over to my colleagues, council member Wall. Thank you. These are questions I think for, miss Patterson Lundgren. I've I've asked a question like this before,
who is it that determines the years that make it historic for designation or not? And I'll go even further, why isn't 1955 historic? Sure. Yep. Yeah. So, commissioner or sorry, Councilman Wall, thank you for the question. As you can tell, I'm used to actually working with the commissioners and not as much with city council. Yes. So that's a really good question and, it so it's who makes that decision. Right? So, so ultimately, right, the city council is the one who decides what the,
you know, if it meets the historic significance, and if it should be designated. Right? So so, ultimately, it's the city council who makes a decision. The decision is based on the documentation that's compiled by, by professional historians. So what we do when we look at a property and we look at what's contributing and non contributing and what the period of significance is, it's an iterative process. We say, okay, you know, what do we think it's significant for? Architecture as an example. Okay. What's the period of significance? In this case,
it starts with around 1900. Now, the National Register has a standard that they say anything less than fifty years is not is not typically considered historic. So we use that as a guideline as well, the fifty year mark. And then and then you say, okay. Does it have historic integrity to that time period? So it's this iterative process to make that determination. And, ultimately, what's being brought to you is that package based on that decision making process. Okay. I mean, I would guess that,
perhaps a house built in 1900 in Boston might not be considered historic. Well, I guess that Is that a question? Yeah. Okay. It's a question. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I think that there are probably, a lot of homes in Boston from around 1900 that could be considered historic. Whether or not they're designated in any particular program is another question. Right? What action, whoever whichever government level decides to take to designate that and what their criteria is might be different than what we do here locally. And and a second question and my last question,
say something bad happens, we actually even heard one example of it, a fire and a house got pushed in. If a fire were to happen, what can be rebuilt within historic district? Sure. Yep. Yep. So, let's say that it's a full demolition, full loss, right? It was a contributing property, it's basically it's basically no longer contributing, and so we would look at it as what's called new infill. When we'd look at infill, new construction within a historic district, we're primarily focused on, the form of the building, the pattern that it plays within the block or the street.
So if you think about the downtown and the very different pattern of buildings, right, the experience that's very different than as you're walking through Pill Hill. So we're looking at the size of the building, we're looking at the setbacks, we're looking at quite honestly a lot of the same things that are covered in underlying zoning, and then we're looking also at the material, we're looking at the, you know, what type of materials they're using to build build it with. What we what we don't want them to do is we don't want them to make a direct copy. Right? We don't want it to be faked. So we're looking for something that kind of straddles that line,
and it really, it really is, up to the property owner to make a lot of those decisions, and we try and guide them with that. But there's quite a wide kind of birth for for them to use to make make choices of what the infill should be. K. Thank you. Mhmm. Council member Keane. Yes. Thanks. I have questions for the petitioners. And we've heard a lot already about how the district was, like, we came from what was the in the national to this. But I I'd like to find out about some of the edge conditions. Have there been discussions that this property was in and is not,
or somebody wanted in and was not, and somebody wanted out? Have there been some adjustments like that? Or is this the integrity been that the consultant makes all the calls or the city weighs in? Or what has happened since we started through that process? Have there been some exceptions? Great question. One thing I will say, we've had more people who are outside the boundary who wanted to be in the boundary than anyone who was in the boundary who did not want to be included. So the original National Register boundary, one of the key things for our consultant, boundary? Are these still are these homes still meeting the criteria of our ordinance and you
know, what got it on the National Register. So as we looked at that boundary, then that's why we need a professional because, in fact, there were discussions from the HPC, actually proposed that perhaps the national register boundary of Pill Hill should just be made a local landmark yesterday. There are some extensive recordings of that. And then city staff appropriately said, you know, you really need to look at it. Now you need to validate it. And Minnesota SHPO told us that too. So we started with this boundary, and then Bethany and her colleague,
mister Zahn, looked themselves. We made boundary videos, all kinds of things to determine. And in the end, there really was almost no room to expand the boundary. The homes had changed, the period of the homes, there was very, very little room to expand and there wasn't any real reason to contract. The main thing, as I told you, were there were the boundary happened across some parcels. So that didn't seem like a very good idea to have part of your yard in the district. The changes we made,
and they're all in Bethany's report, are on Ninth Avenue Southwest. There were three Ellerbee homes from the period of significance that were very, very intact and we didn't understand why they weren't there, so they were added. The only other, all the rest of the boundary is essentially the same, but it's being cleaned up to make sense, except for there was one on Seventh Street. There were some unusual aspects of that particular boundary, and there was one property owner of a contributing property who early in the process
engaged in our neighborhood meetings and really preferred that his property not be in. He had more of a burden because he's a contributing property. It also isn't a very important boundary. So so if I ask miss Gladhill, I just wanna make sure there wasn't any sort of like opting in or opting out or fighting in or fighting There there again, just this is more of a very specific. There wasn't any sort of negotiating on and off. This is very, very much done by the objective criteria and nothing else. There was not. I I inspected the the boundaries, walked through them,
looked at them. I did not engage with any of the homeowners to talk to them about, hey, would you like to be in here or not? I didn't know who owned what homes. So it was a completely objective view. I will say that, I did take the National Register as my main guideline because I've seen more cases than not when a national registered district is different from a locally designated district that's caused some severe problems. Where I live in St. Paul, there's a neighborhood just south of my neighborhood which is both a national registered and a locally district. The neighborhood just south of us is only on the national register, so it does not have local control.
That has caused some issues with demolition and construction that have actually put a greater burden on the homeowners in that area. Those homeowners now have to go through an environmental assessment worksheet because it's in the national register and not locally regulated. So they actually have a greater burden. I'm kind of thinking they'd prefer to be locally designated at this point, but I can't speak for them. And again, I'll ask Ms. Gladwell, this is kind of a follow-up a little bit. Council member wall got to this a little bit, but I'm trying to get my head around this whole non contributing. And then if they have to, if this, if they rebuild, it has to do to a standard.
I mean, in this, the silliest thing would be to have to make it historic because it's a new house. So it's not that. But then it sounds like building standards that we're applying in the district that don't apply in other places in the city. What what are you really making them do? So you're correct. You don't create recreate history. In fact, the secretary of the stand interior standards prohibit that. So you cannot, be, correct and to say build a French chateau, in a spot in this. They don't want you to be recreating history or making something that looks like it was not there.
What they're trying to do is follow the, again, that sense of place. So we're looking at sensing of massing, setbacks, averaging of setbacks, the kind of scale of the homes. In this house, in this neighborhood, there's a lot of variation, due to the topography, due to the different kind we showed some of the larger homes, some of the smaller. So I don't think that there's a lot that, you know, you're not going to have to recreate the the size and scale of the Prairie House that's three blocks over. But you do want something that does not stand out as an enormous six story cube in the middle.
But this is where I think we're really getting to the thing. And now I'm gonna look to staff now. It would follow the zoning at this point. It wouldn't follow a new standard that the someone's gonna control and say it has to match what the neighbors want because this is the private property issue I wanna make sure we don't get into. Sure. Counseling Keith. Yeah. Thank you for for the question. Correct. So so it's really about, something that is that's not incompatible with the neighborhood. I would I would go that far to say something that, and it it it still would be, under our ordinance, under our design guidelines that have been adopted.
It still would be a type two review for for a new principal structure, in the district, but but we're not asking them to copy it. We're asking them to do something that's not incompatible with the district. And as miss Gladwell mentioned Gladhill mentioned, because there is such a wide variety already in the district, I mean, I'm having a hard time coming up with examples of what wouldn't be allowed. Okay. And I I don't wanna leave it to faith here, but I I wanna make sure that we're not getting caught up in someone saying no. Someone some group is gonna say,
you need to do it this way. Is this a type two review under staffs review using zoning guidance, or is it something that I don't understand? Type two review is an HPC review. They make the decision. It's appealable to city council. Okay. That's that's what I was worried about. Last question. I think this is more for the petitioners, but the number of people who have written me, mostly in positive, mostly, want this. They their part of their motivation is this idea of they don't wanna be rezoned. Is that a misunderstanding or is that something that's been,
where is that coming from? I would not say that most of the people we've talked to understand the difference between zoning and heritage preservation overlay. This topic did come up due to the proposal for R2X rezoning. And in fact, where we're talking on Third Street, that was MXT whatever. That was 85 foot tall buildings along Third Street was part of that proposal. So it came to light because many property owners and others in the city actually thought that the national registered designation with the plaque protected from demolition.
So it got started because of that. Now it's hard to get every single person to understand that. But I think the majority of people understand just what I said that if you have historic properties and zoning changes, the properties are protected. They can adapt. So maybe my neighbor has a cool coffee house where their home is or maybe some of these larger homes are used and there are fourplex. That is not prohibited. Okay. And a question for a couple more here. A question for staff. There is some properties as best I can tell,
and I've been around there, but not for a while, but that are not visible from the street. So when you get into facade, what does it really mean to be historic if they're not visible from the public? Right. Right. So, again, with the the design guidelines, and I know I showed you a quick clip of it, on the screen. And a type one review is required for projects. Now, a type one review is is a staff level review, is required for projects that are not visible from the, public right of way or public property. Right? If, like, you backed up on a park, for example. So, really,
the only reason that it's a type one review is somebody has to make that determination. Yep. Right? Is the project visible? There are some homes that are, homes that are, yeah, internal to a block because of the way the the lots were were split up. And, you know, almost nothing of the of the homes can be seen. So Yep. Right? It's what is the project that's being proposed. I would look at it, make a determination if it's visible, or not. And then if it's not visible, I would approve it. Okay. So let let me state it differently. What we're really dealing with here is the facade from the public
perspective has to be protected. And if it's not in the public's line of sight, it doesn't end up getting that same protection. That's really where our focus is, and that's where judgment calls have to be made. Okay. And again, last question for staff again. On this discussion of boundaries, I've had these discussions with staff before that the boundaries really were in control of the petitioner. The consultant came in with it. Had have there been like solid discussions on the boundary must end here or should have should have extended and should not have or what what can I what do
I need to know as we go forward? Right. Right. So we've had a lot of discussions on the boundaries. It's it's not it's not like a scientific equation of what's in and what's out. Right? It's this iterative process that I was explaining to councilman Wahl. You you look at why is this area significant, what makes it significant, which are the properties that make it significant, and then you make a determination about what makes the most sense to make it a district, a cohesive district. There is some ability to, you know, for malleable changes to to
the boundaries, when you designate. But this is what is being proposed and what I I am also recommending is what what's in front of you. Good. Thank you. I've again, I really appreciate, the group that kind of pulled us together and, and I kind of really admire the kind of the admiration for your own your own community and it's it's admirable. Council member Miller. Yeah. Thanks again. Just a couple questions for staff to clarify things. So I believe there was a a guidance on how long, an applicant might expect to wait for a decision on a type one review. Is there any guidance on how long this process for a type two review particularly
might might add to a project Sure. Link? Sure. Thank you. Thank you for the question, Councilman Miller. Yes. So, type two reviews are reviewed and we've decided by the Heritage Preservation Commission, who typically meets monthly. There's no requirement for a public hearing. All the public can comment at a at a certificate of appropriateness review, is what it's called. So we, we specifically don't do public hearings so that that doesn't add to the time line. However, we do need time to prepare the documentation and to bring it to an HPC
meeting, to get the agenda posted. So typically, if somebody gets in at least ten days before, I will get it on the next HPC meeting. If they were to come in a couple days before the meeting and I didn't have the ability to bring it to the HPC, it would have to happen the next month. There's also the chance that a can a meeting could be postponed or canceled due to a holiday. So there's a lot of variety there, but typically, it's going to be within that month. Thank you. Question for the applicants. So I've had the opportunity be part of the neighborhood meeting, the HPC review,
and and now tonight. And there have been a couple of, folks that I've heard in in public comment, at the public hearing, particularly at HPC express, comments in opposition. And I just wondered, if you have any comment on engagement with them after. Was it a misunderstanding? Yeah. Great question. Tonight. So what might Yeah. You say about Well, I will say that one person who spoke at the HPC, admitted that he had only seen the documentation that day partly just because of some other miscommunication, expressed concerns and now with further information.
He certainly has much lesser concern, and it really, you know, chose didn't think feel that he needed to oppose it. I think he's more in favor than not. Thank you. Another question. So with this concern of a 25 Third Street Southwest, should it and and I guess this is a question probably for staff, but maybe for you, miss Clyde Hill. If that were removed, the requirement for district is to meet one of the eight conditions. Is that correct? Or at a minimum, for significance, one of those eight criteria should be met. Correct? For the district as a whole?
Yes. Correct. And the yes. And the district is meets five. And so being that it which is amazing, if this property were removed from the boundary, would that fundamentally change which of those conditions were met? And if so, how? Because this is a gateway to the district, I think that has a greater role than were this a house that were buried within the district. The boundaries themselves did not necessarily affect the integrity except for the way they deal with the topography. Slides that showed the topographic map and also Martha had some slides that showed those
elements. So that's outside of an important element that feeds into the district but not necessarily into this house. My biggest concern about that, is because this rise is so much higher, because if that were taken out and there was an ability to later rezone or to do elements like that, it could create some serious problems in the one main gateway. When I first came to the district to try to find that's the way I came in. That's the way most people I've spoken to, they've walked around. That's the way they come in. I understand that's the way the trolleys come in. So I have a photo standing at the foundation building that looks out,
to the outside the district. I can't figure the direction at this point. That has a new apartment building in it. That's really disruptive to the district. It's not in the district. It doesn't affect it, but it's jarring. And that's my concern with this property that if something were to happen there, that it would be extremely jarring and potentially disrupt the district. Whereas keeping it in the district gives it the opportunity for all the advantages of being in the district, including the the greater value of the home and the greater support from staff and HPC. Okay.
Just I I think a couple more questions. So to reiterate the question that council member Keane asked, in the h, no, in the neighborhood information meeting, looking at the map that was presented, there was the additional property on Seventh Street Southwest, correct? I I think I can answer it actually. So on on, when on Seventh Street Southwest at the neighborhood information And however, the night of that meeting, we already clarified that there were some properties, to the western edge that actually one reason they're shown on some of the,
on the not boundary boundary map that's in the National Register was because they originally tried to get them on the National Register and the National Register came back and told them no. So at the night of that meeting, I think the only difference, because we had Xs over those, was eleven zero four. There's two homes. There were only two homes that were different there and one was a noncontributory. That particular boundary, I should say, through neighborhood engagement, we had other people who said this is kind of an awkward extension. Maybe we should just not and this is all detailed in Bethany's report,
by the way. Maybe we shouldn't even have Seventh Street. Also, if you look at the Homestead County property records, it will say that some of those homes are in the plumber neighborhood and one is in Pill Hill. So that's why we did make it smaller because of that. But I think there's only two homes that are different and that was because of engagement with the property owner who engaged with us over a period of three months. Okay. But I I guess just to clarify, it's from the neighborhood information meeting to HPC. There was a property owner that that directly engaged you and said,
please remove my home from the boundary and then to HPC it was removed. And it's not in the map that's presented to us as recommended tonight. It's not in the final application because that was the decision after actually input from our consultant, Bethany. Molly also had discussions with this person, but it was felt that for the the good of the district, it was felt that this was a home. It's not really a very important part of the boundary in our mind. And we thought it's the loss of the homeowner if they really don't want to be in it. But they do have more of a burden because they're contributing property.
Probably they might be asked to come back in at some point. Who knows? Okay. That's that's also an area where, again, we tightened up that because it was scattered with noncontributory homes around that. It was an opportunity to kind of clean that line. Okay. I've got a couple of questions. First, I I one, I commend you for all the grassroots work that your team has done. So I have a couple of questions along those lines. One, if you can really talk about the efforts that you've made. I I think it was, what, a hundred and nine contributing properties and 20 non contributing.
How many of those that you actually informed that they were going to be a part of this? And, if you can kinda talk about your your community engagement efforts. Yeah. Great question. So again, HPC first brought this up in, August and and September of twenty twenty three. Around that time, then and the two pathways presented were neighborhood initiated versus city initiated. The city initiated process was expected to take years. I wasn't sure what happened in my lifetime to tell you the truth. So we decided on that neighborhood initiative.
We started from there. There was a petition that was started for Pill Hill. And in a very short time period of the contributing properties from the National Register, we had 70% or 80% of them in favor of this district recognizing that of those that we had contacted, that was, you know, almost 100% were in favor. Then we went through an effort to contact every homeowner, realizing that you don't always have an email, but we put flyers, in the Thanksgiving of twenty twenty three in people's mailboxes.
This continued over this whole year and a half. Even until recently, if we found out, oh, there's a new owner at this home, then I've either personally sent them a flyer or dropped it by their home. So there's probably very few people that didn't get anything that didn't get any notice. So I would say the majority have been contacted. Now some people are just more neutral. As far as support, it's somewhere in the range of 75% to 80% strong supporters. Maybe, also if you have 80%,
then you might have 15% or something that are neutral or unknown. And again, we've actually only heard from really two individuals that, as of today that were not that were in the boundary that were not, interested in it. So that's a pretty overwhelmingly positive. Also, I will say thanks to Molly, because of the history with the downtown district, remember that you had 88% of the property owners opposed.
We are the polar opposite of that. And part of that was this community engagement. So we held informal open houses, but Molly made a big effort to send an additional notification that was not required by the ordinance. And it went out around August to early September of twenty twenty four and established a landing page on the city website that explains what is the historic district, what are the restrictions, all these things. So that was really helpful to us because then we could link to that.
Lastly, I will say there's been pretty much media on this. Quite a few post bulletin articles, Star Tribune, KIMT, KTTC. I don't know. Dan's the media guy. And social media. And social media. So there's been pretty much out outreach. Is there somebody that really never looked at their postcards? They've gotten at least three postcard mailings from So you've done a lot of community engagement. And one thing that you haven't mentioned is you actually fundraise to pay for your, your historic, preservation evaluation. So, so what next question is,
if we do approve this going forward, what are you gonna do to keep up that communication to new homeowners, homeowners that, want to, make changes to their property, whether they're a, a contributing, home or a non contributing home. Have you thought about that? We have thought about best ways to communicate with the neighborhood, and I think, there are a variety of ways of platforms that that could be done. I know I asked city staff, is there some type of mandatory notification?
And apparently, there really isn't. It's kind of like knowing the zoning of the house that you buy. So I I don't know all of those details, but we certainly would do everything in our effort to educate new neighbors about this. Good. Then one last question for staff. So can you talk just a little bit more about the non, non contributing properties and, what, if anything, they cannot do with their property, be taking out demolition that, would make any changes that that they could do due to that?
Council president, I I've made sure that I understand what your question is. So, in terms of what would be required for a non contributing property to make changes to Exactly. To their properties. Yeah. So alterations to the property, are what we refer to as a type one review, and that is the staff level review. Basically, because somebody has to make a determination about, you know, whether or not more is required if it has to go to the HPC. So I would be looking at it, and, really, alterations to the property, I can't think of anything that wouldn't be approved.
I'm gonna pose you a question. Yeah. And, I'm a surprise Green Bay Packers fan here in Minnesota. No. What if somebody that was a non contributing property wanted to reside their house in Green And Gold? Sure. Yep. What would staff do? Yeah. So first question that I look at it is is a permit required? So is a building permit required? And I'd have to verify that. I don't believe it would be required under our our building code. So, contributing or non contributing, that would that would not take any additional review. If I found out the alternative that it was a requirement for a permit,
I look at it and I say, is the change that they're making, does it impact contributing a contributing feature to the district? I said, no. It's a non contributing building. It doesn't impact that. So I sign off on it. It. Thank you. Other questions? Council member Miller. Just one last question and sorry to add one. I wasn't quite reading my handwriting and I'm I'm looking back at the the neighborhood information meeting to today and just trying to get my head around, just some minor changes that I've noted. So in the neighborhood meeting, Saint Mary's Park was color coded green around sort of the the entirety of those
parcels in that area. And then in in the packet we have now, the northeast corner of that green space that's labeled Saint Mary's Park has a variety of small parcels, but no parcels, but no dots on them, red or blue. Can you talk about that area? And I'm not sure if that's a question for, the applicant or for staff. And, Molly, you're raising your hand. Yeah. Yeah. I can answer that. So, Komsman Miller, we actually had our GIS team help us with the mapping. Oftentimes, when there's a zoning application, we've got a consultant who has a GIS department. In this case, that's that's not the case. Our GIS team had already been working on a map,
of the Pill Hill area for other purposes, and so I just continue to use them as a resource. I asked them to switch the underlying base map, to more clearly reflect where the public park is located. And that's one of the things is that when you look at that early nineteen ninety national register map, they didn't have that level of detail. And that's one of the reasons why there why there are changes that needed to be made because it just didn't have the detail that was up to date. And the other detail is that, we reviewed the legal description of the national register boundary,
which is what they Weber. And then Molly, using her resources, that followed exactly, whereas the original map was just slightly different because of a parcel that's owned by St. Mary's rather than the city. So there was no other change and that boundary that you see is exactly the National Register boundary. And and you mentioned Saint Mary's. Is is Saint Mary's or Mayo Clinic the owner of those cobbled together parcels that are now color coded white? Or So those were never I don't think they were I think they were always colored that, to tell you the truth. But anyway,
as far as any vacant parcels, they never have a red or a blue dot on there. But, I think that some of them are owned by Mayo Clinic, in that area. And maybe a question for staff. What is the little needle jet out Sure. North there? Yep. So the city property, the park property actually does go through the parcels that are owned by Saint Mary's by And that's just a right of way easement to allow It's actually a property line. Yep. That's based on the tax parcels. Any other questions from, council members?
If not, is there anyone who would like to make a motion on this? Council member Palmer. Yeah. I'll make a motion approving the designation of a proposed Pillow Hill Historic Landmark District as detailed in the submitted application and directing the city attorney to prepare an ordinance for first reading. Is there a second? I'll second. Moved by, council member Palmer and seconded by council member Fredericks. Further discussion on this item? Council member, Palmer? No. I I think it's been a good discussion and I'm looking forward to, having this be approved. Council member Fredericks, anything to say?
Happy for these people. Other discussion? Council member Miller. I actually would like to make a motion, to slightly amend the northern boundary and I I sent staff a map, because I I do have concerns about how some of the partials have have come together and I wanna honor the property rights that this this this individual who came tonight to speak. I know it's hard to have the courage to come and speak in opposition to something, but I am proposing that we realign the northern boundary as shown parcels associated with 825 Third Street Southwest,
and so this is a a motion that I would like to make. And I'll second. Motion, made by council member Miller and seconded by council member, Keane. Further discussion on the motion. Yeah. Again, I I just feel like, in the in the discussion, I appreciate the level of community engagement and I wanna honor that and I I live just Southeast of this district and have been asked by so many people why is my house also not in along the edges of this boundary and a boundary has to be drawn somewhere. I know that there are modifications from the nineteen nineties map to this map and
so again with such a clear ask from this property owner, it's not contributing, it's at the boundary. That's why I'm making this motion. Council member Keane. Yeah. Again, I I expected this to come up, and I was doing some other work. And I I actually looked at the whole, Saint Mary's Park, and I was struggling with the idea why that was included. And again, just some different discussions with gateways and things made me think, okay. But I I have always I've all I'm still trying to get my head around districts where you've got contributing properties because as I watched this,
ordinance come to be, we was very focused on individual properties and districts were a secondary thought. But for the last eight months, we've only focused on district or mostly mostly mainly focused on districts. And now we have this new concept of non contributing. And it it to me, it's, it is, an extension of what we what I thought we were trying to do with historic preservation. So I support this with the idea that there's a non contributing parcel on the edge and they can be taken out and still protect the integrity of the district.
Council member Palmer. I I will not be supporting this, amendment because we heard from other neighbors that were very adamant that we not take this out. The staff is not recommending taking it out, and the consultant is not recommending taking it out. So the homeowner who owns it sounds like they're going to, have financial reason for keeping it out. So I won't be supporting your amendment. Other comments on the amendment. Mayor Norton. Yeah. I guess I'm concerned with the amendment given the discussion that we've just had,
prolonged discussion about this being a gateway property, and it concerns me that we're ignoring the consultants and the guidance of the city, the HPC and others because of that gateway designation. And so I guess I'm I would prefer it to be passed as originally suggested for that reason because of the gateway significance and, hope that others will see that as well. Council member Fredericks. We have lots of room for in this great community for high density housing.
Pill Hill is not an area for it. It is I'm I'm a I'm a huge advocate for personal property rights. So it's hard for me to tell people what you can and can't do. But this area of this community is is a very special, you know, for for me, for lack of a better word, just a very special place in this community. And you don't have to go far to do all kinds of high density projects, high rises, so on and so forth. So, being a fan of old property, I say let it be as stands.
Other comments from council members? I I too will not be supporting the amendment. I, I think as a non contributing, property, I think it's been clear that that the those properties can do a lot and they have very little restrictions and it really comes down to when a property is demolished and then as as the, consultant and the, the neighbors and staff had said,
then as a gateway property, I think that property, should have some cohesion with its, neighbors. So I won't be supporting the proposed amendment. Other comments? If not, is there, all in favor of the amendment, say aye. Aye. All opposed, say no. No. No. Clerk Giesler, could you call the roll? Council member King. Aye. Council member Miller. Aye. Council member Wall. Nay. Council member Fredericks. No. Council member Palmer. Nay.
Council member Doring. Aye. Council president Schoebring. Nay. There are three ayes and four nays. The amendment does not pass. We're back to the original motion. Any further discussion or further amendments? Council member Doring. Yeah. I, I just wanna commend, the neighborhood, for coming forward to to pursue, this historical designation. Thanks. I just imagine. Thank you. I heard a couple of the speakers speak tonight about how Pill Hill speaks speaks to our larger community, and how it speaks to our larger community. I I will be supporting,
this motion, but I would urge, the homeowners in this historic district to pursue the just deeds process of moving, the redlining, that is part of our history in Rochester off the deeds to their properties. I think that is in no way, in my opinion, whitewashing our history, but if this designation is going to speak about and to our community, I think we can make the efforts to to say that the historic properties that we are, are keeping are inclusive and welcoming of all people.
So I would urge those homeowners to engage in the just deeds process. Council member Fredericks. I would like the residents of Pithill to know that I will veto any green and gold siding. Is this a motion? Okay, thank you. Council member Miller. So I just wanna say that I am very much in support of the district and I know some of you may not hear this. I I live just south of the property, chose to prioritize living in this area for exactly the same character, the walkability, the access to downtown. The zoning has changed. This has been a long standing evolving neighborhood and I know that it can continue
to evolve evolve even within historic overlay. I I know that we had some disagreement. I think this is part of the public process, but I I would encourage the the applicants and the homeowners to continue to pursue the good supportive process of providing resource libraries, working with contractors. We have lived in in several historic districts in other towns and the support neighborhood that did an annual historic preservation project award ceremony and it was actually through that process that we were able to find a painter for our 1896 house to
be able to do lead remediation when we had a young child and to do it well, to do it safely, and to do it in a in a historic way. And so, again, I applaud this effort. I know it's taken a lot of time and personal resource, and I look forward to supporting this this motion. Well, I just wanna echo, what council member Miller said. I'm just so proud of the grassroots effort that this neighborhood took, and I was serving as the chair of the planning and zoning commission when, the zoning overlay came through and, the ideas of of really taking it on and really looking at a historic district
overlay and and taking it on yourselves as well, as a neighborhood and fundraising to get support for that and then the outreach that you've all done, to your neighbors. And as I said in my questions, I really look forward to seeing you continue that outreach through, through your neighborhood association over there and, continue the connection with, Molly and, and the HBC. And, I will be supporting this wholeheartedly. And with that, all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed say nay.
We have unanimous support and we will take a ten minute break. Okay. We are on progress. On item g two, which is the reconstruction of Seventeenth And A Half Street Northwest from Nineteenth Avenue Northwest to 20 First Avenue Northwest. And we have a staff report by Public Works, Dylan Dombrowski. Mister Dombrowski, take it away. Good evening, mayor, president, members of the council. As you recall, the 17 And A Half Street Northwest reconstruction project was presented to you last month,
the feasibility report was adopted and we scheduled the first public hearing that's required through the special assessment process through state statute chapter four twenty nine for this evening. Tonight's public hearing as part of the actions we will request with the project we'll be ordering the improvements to be made for our team to prepare the plans for you to adopt a resolution setting the next hearing, we have the assessment hearing that would occur in March,
on March 17 as well as ordering our team to prepare the assessment role that would be presented at that meeting and that is the number that would be mailed out to each individual property owner so they understand the assessment to their parcel. Just real quickly as I mentioned last month the assessment policy that was adopted in the last few years is such that we're assessing less than used to occur, we're taking the street items, so the pavement, the rock below the street,
the curb and gutter, driveway approaches and any miscellaneous grading associated with prepping the street. 75% of that cost is paid by the city, 25% is paid by the property owners and it's based on the property valuation. So with this project overall the estimate for the total project is 1,150,000.00 of which currently we would bring back to you a number next month that will be somewhere around $141,000 and at that meeting, property owners would have the opportunity to,
contest that assessment. They would need to make sure they let us know before the meeting or at the night of the meeting, and then there's a certain process that they would have to follow as part of the the state statutes. So really tonight we're here, like I mentioned the four actions our team is asking for, we'll be back next month and I'm I'm available for questions after the public hearing. Thank you, mister Dombrowski. At this time, I will open up the public hearing. This is a time for members of the public to comment on this item or ask questions and,
and staff will answer questions after the public hearing. So this is a public hearing. Anyone wishing to be heard on this item? Seeing none, step forward, and you have five minutes. State your name. Amy Cockeyed, I just have a question. That's a school that I volunteer at a lot. Does the school district pay half since they're half of the property along this street? We'll answer the question after the public hearing. Okay. This is a public hearing. Any, anyone else wishing to be heard on this item? Seeing none,
I will close the public hearing. And mister Dombrowski? Yeah. Thank you. Again, one other thing I wanted to acknowledge. We had a had an open house at the Sunset Terrace Elementary last week and we had seven, neighbors that attended. So it was a snowy Wednesday night but we had relatively good attendance when you consider there's only a smaller chunk of properties impacted by the project. Again the assessment policy is based on property valuation so the school district's property valuation is much higher than those, residences so a large portion of the assessment is paid by the school district and
this is nothing new. We reconstructed 16 And A Half Street Northwest on the south side of the school, 2 Years ago and, similarly when you you base it on the property valuations, the school district paid a large thousand that will be assessed. So, more than half of the assessment will go to the school district. Questions, council member Palmer. I think we talked about this last time we had a discussion about it, but you're putting some road calming, efforts in this. Correct? Correct. So so we've looked at with the school district at the the northeast
corner of the school. So at Nineteenth Avenue and 17 And A Half Street is where they have their crossing guard. Been out there observing at times where crossing guard's out and cars are weaving between the crossing guard and the curb and have had a lot of close calls. And so what we're going to do with this project is that, curb extensions what we call bump outs to shorten that crossing and really all you will have is the two lanes of traffic at that intersection making it much much safer as well as reconstructing all the pedestrian curb ramps on the project to meet
ADA standards. So if I understood that 20, you have bump outs there. Is that what we're talking about? No. At Nineteenth Avenue. Okay. And so you won't have any bump outs on 20 First? We'll have to look at the design with the team. It's it's very possible we'll we'll incorporate them at that location as well. Because this at this time they don't add a lot to the project? No. They don't and that's not something that it gets assessed to the property owners. So the the next question, my last question is is if I remember correctly the reason that we're basically doing this is because the water main is leaking.
Is that correct? It's, it was number three on RPU's list of priority areas based on the number of breaks. We also have sanitary sewer that's greater than 60 years old, so approaching the end of its useful life. Storm sewer that is undersized and or not not enough intakes based on today's standards with, the rainfall totals that have changed over the years with design. So as I've always mentioned it's the opportunity to if we need to address one and the others are the condition is,
it's whether it's a condition, capacity, whatever it might be this is the time to do it have one disruption to the neighborhood and this will last the street will last for fifty years with the proper pavement preservation that our team does. Thank you. Councilmember Keane. Yeah. I don't wanna read too much into the fiscal, and resource impacts. You said that the assessment is 25% of the, street improvements. It looks like it's more than that. Can you help me walk through that between the amount the water utility, sewer, and storm is paying?
It looks like the assessment compared to the street reconstruction fund is not 25%. That's because the the street reconstruction, it it incorporates everything including some of those items that are not accessible to the property owners. So we're using some of that to reconstruct those corners I talked about, as well as the just the utility cost share as we break it out by, the different utilities and the age and what's driving the project. I can dig into more detail on the exact split with the team and send
that out to the council after this. If you could, just to I mean, this is preliminary. We're not sending out things yet, but it almost looks like if I if I just look at what the street reconstruction is, if that were the only portion there that looks like the assessments are much more than 25%, it was not less than. Yeah. I'll have to look into that with the team because And I don't know who else wants it, but if you just send it to me that would be helpful. I'll send it to the entire council because it it's helpful. Thank you. Any other questions on this item? Administrative zones. I just wanna point out that one thing that has come up in these meetings
before is that we also preliminarily assume a water service assessment, which may or may not happen on each of the properties. And so that is a part of that increase. And so I don't know if that's helpful to you. That might be because I can't get the numbers that I have in front of me to to add up. But I, I'll watch for for mister Dombrowski's note. Is, council member Miller? So thanks for mentioning the open house. In addition to being a snowy night, it was also a pretty packed, night of public open houses across the city. I I wondered if you might just preview some of the,
themes that were coming up specifically around the street reconstruction, the the change in design. Were people open, favorable, any any concerning elements coming out of those comments? I would say it was not a contentious meeting at all. It was more informative. Neighbourhood wanted to understand what are the impacts, not only the assessments, but just the project. How am I gonna get in and out? How do you address mail service, garbage service, when will the project occur so it's going to occur during the school when the school is out of session in the summertime so we're not impacting those operations.
It was really just a lot of general questions about project impacts. Great. Thank you. Is there a motion on this item? I'll make a four part motion here. Number one, ordering the improvements within the reconstruction of 17 And A Half Street Northwest from Nineteenth Avenue to 20 First Avenue Northwest, part two, ordering preparation of plans for the reconstruction. Number three, adopt a resolution setting the assessment hearing for March 17, for the qualifying portion of the cost to be paid through assessments. And number four, order up the preparation of the assessment role for the reconstruction,
for that project. Second. Moved by council member Keane and seconded by council member Miller. Any further discussion on this item? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed say nay. Passes. Moving on to item g three which is a vacation permit, and we have Desmond McGough to, present this to us. Thank you, president Schubert. Mayor Norton, members of the council, good evening. My name is Desmond. I'm with the, community development department. The applicant, s c k, LLC,
has submitted an application to the city, to vacate a 360 foot long alleyway, by 14 foot wide. And, it's located in Lot 10 or a Block 10 of the Zumbro, addition subdivision plat. And this is located in Uptown, in the Uptown neighborhood. Subject Alley runs east to west, just north of Second Street Southwest and, between Eighteenth Street Southwest and West of Highway 52. The vacation will allow for, unutilized alley right away to be incorporated into a larger parcel,
for future redevelopment parses purposes through a minor land subdivision in the future. This alleyway does not, facilitate vehicular access or are there any utilities in there? The applicant does own 12 of the 13 parcels adjacent to it on the north and south side, located, in, the, last parcel on the South side is owned by, MnDOT. Lots 89, And 10 of the, subject block were acquired fired by the Department of Transportation in 02/2005, for the development of Highway 52. And, I had a conversation with them last week.
It was noted that the agency doesn't have any current plans for those properties, but they may need them at some point in the future, for potential off off ramp, improvement, or expansion purposes. As such, the agency acknowledged that, they have no objection to the the alleyway vacation. So both staff and the planning commission are recommending approval of, this alley vacation, and I, would be happy to answer any questions after after the public hearing. Thank you, mister Miguel. Would the is the applicant here or the representative if you step forward and state your name and you have ten minutes.
My name is Andre Ringel. I work for Widseth and I'm here representing SCK SCK developments at this meeting. Thank you council members, president and Mayor Norton for your time here tonight. As Desmond mentioned, this is an alleyway vacation for the middle of those nine lots. Currently it's unused and with the vacation, the property would definitely be in our opinion would definitely be better able to suit the uses of the zone and the potential district. I'll be available if you have any questions. Thank you. Thank you.
We'll call you back after the public hearing. At this time, I'll open the public hearing. If there is anyone here who wishes to be heard on this item, please step forward. If anyone wishes to be heard on this item, please step forward. I will close the public hearing and, and invite my colleagues to ask either the applicant or staff any questions. Council member, Palmer. I have a question for staff. There's three lots there. I believe that you're saying that MnDOT owns those. Is that correct? That's correct. Yes. And they might wanna use it for expansion.
So the brown lots, are we is there some I know we're not talking about the rezoning on that yet, but is there some way to protect it if the VIN dot comes in and says they wanna add to the highway that we're not gonna goof ourselves up in the long run? Yeah. I I don't I don't know. I don't see how the alleyway, being vacated would impact expansion of the, 50 And and and I agree with that. I guess I'm asking the next question. The next question is is when they come in to say we're gonna build a building there, which I'm gonna assume they're going to do with the roadway not there yet,
are we going to in ten years, if they put a road in there, are we gonna have a high rise that says we don't want a road there? Yeah. Are are we talking about the, MnDOT properties? Yes. That's right. Yeah. In in my conversation with the right of way division, they indicated that they had no plans to develop the parcels or to sell them for development purposes. Perfect. Thank you. Council member Keane. Yeah. I just wanna ask the applicant or just get a reading here. When I look at this map, I see the access is either through the l if I look at the the properties, the five properties that are right on Second Street,
there's access from Second Street or from the alley. When the alley closes down, it's only Second Street. If this property doesn't end up moving forward, this whole plan of consolidating and doing one thing here, I would say those some of those, properties would only have access off Second Street, and Second Street is gonna be the bus rapid transit. Is there any concern that, they're going to want to have delivery or something there that's not going to be possible? To the best of my knowledge there is minimal concern of that, and the applicant is pretty confident that the development will move forward and any potential
development wouldn't need, any sort of prohibited access from the Second Street. Yeah. And so let me just ask staff, is there like when we give up this access from the alley, could anybody claim that they need access from Second Street that it's going to be contrary to our plans? Council member Keane, I think the only one that could do that would be, MnDOT with those three properties. The two that freight Okay. Base, Second Street. As you can see, there's like a sliver in front of the other parcels that are, out of the applicant's property that would prohibit access on those parcels regardless.
Okay. So that that's the key thing is that there's that other sliver that that would be the access to these things if if they stayed the way they are. Right. Okay. Thank you. Council member Miller. A question for, I guess, the applicant. I'm looking at an overview of the satellite. Image. Looks like the majority of these parcels are just surface parking lots and I don't appreciate that there's a particularly developed alleyway. Is that correct? Is this a over There isn't yet. It's there's nothing there. So I'm just trying to to look at the map and it it doesn't seem that there's while there is a a Right of way.
A right of way for the alleyway, it it doesn't appear that there's actually a developed navigable base. Yes. Council member Miller, you are correct. There is no, developed alleyway right now. It's unused, grass. Got it. Okay. Thanks. Any other questions on this item? Is there a motion on this item? I'll Remember, Yeah. I'll make a motion to adopt a resolution approving vacation petition CD2024010 v a c by SCK LLC for the vacation of the 14 foot wide alley right of way
within Block 10 West Sunpro Edition Subdivision plat. Second. Moved by, council member Keane and seconded by council member Doring. Any further discussion on this item? Seeing none, all in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed say nay. Passes unanimously. Moving on to our final public hearing, which is the property tax abatement for relocation of parks and forestry operations to the public works and transit operations center campus. And we will have a staff report by Brian Anderson.
Yes. Thank you, council president Schuhring. Resolution approving property tax abatement for the relocation of the parks and forestry operations to the public works and transit operations center campus. This item has been before the city council, and what we are looking for tonight is, for the, approval of the property tax abatement, the use of that bonds. The project itself is a $43,000,000 project, 6,000,000 for land, 7,000,000, for the building redesign, and 30,000,000 for construction. And that consists of $6,400,000
in 2013 sales tax, that was used recently for land acquisition for this project, 9,500,000.0 in ex, use of excess 2013 sales tax, 14,000,000 in state grant funds were secured last year, 11,850,000.00 for the general obligation tax abatement bonds, which is why we are here tonight, and then approximately 1,400,000.0 for the, city's future from the city's future acquisition account. It has been recommended that the city use the general obligation tax abatement bonds for
a fifteen year term. This, proposal of financing package will save the city approximately $1,800,000 in approved tonight, the other processes approved tonight, the other processes that will be coming forward, before the common council will be on March 3. That'll be a resolution, authorizing the sale of the general obligation tax abatement bonds as per state statute. And then from there, on April 7, the sale of the bonds will take place in the morning, usually around 10:00. And then that evening at the council meeting, the council will be asked by resolution to approve the sale of the bonds. And with that,
with the tax abatement bonds, we have used this, twice before. Once recently in 2023 and another in 2024. So it is another tool in our tool kit. Of the 17 issuances, again, we've only used it twice. This will be the third time, but a lot of our other debt issuances that we have out there are either like lease revenue bonds or, revenue bonds or tied to some other funding mechanisms. So that's why we've not had to use for this in the past. So with that, I can stand for any questions. Any questions at this time? If not, I will open the public hearing on this item.
This is a public hearing. If you wish to be heard on this item, please step forward and state your name. This is a public hearing. I will close the public hearing and invite my colleagues. Council member Palmer. I I have only one question. That is this 2013 sales tax excess money is 9,500,000.0. How much more is left in that account? I think that pretty much drains it down, very, very close. We didn't wanna get to the exact thing but I don't believe there's gonna be any excess left. We're still closing out a few projects with that. Okay. Thank you. Yep.
Council member, Wall. As I read the alternative actions, this provides the, most financially savvy way forward for the city to, finance this project. Yeah. The abatement portion will provide sixty two point no, 64.27% of the of the amount to be paid actually. So approximately two thirds will be paid through abatement. So, yes, that was more than actually the twenty year term. Thank you. Believe it or not. I have a question. Mister Anderson, you mentioned that we've done this twice in the past, used the tax abatement bonds.
Can you you or maybe administrator Zalms talk about, is this something that we may expect to see more going forward in the next few years as far as a tool that we would, look to using? Yeah. It's a general obligation bond is what it is. So we take a look to and we talk with our financial advisor as well too to see what the the best use or the best type of bond that we wanna use. So a lot of these other ones that I mentioned like we have well, we have four of them that we're gonna I'll show you later tonight that are
underneath the EDA as well too. So they are tied to like a revenue source and a lot of these are tied to a revenue source. So we don't immediately jump to the use of an abatement bond unless we have to, but it does provide us, with a nice option as obviously abatement does use that. In the foreseeable future, I don't know that there's another project out there that I could point at right now that we would use it for that I can see. Okay. Is there a motion on this item? Sure. I'll make a motion adopting a resolution approving property tax abatements for the relocation of parks and forestry operations to the public works and transit operations center campus.
Second. Moved by council member Miller and seconded by council member Palmer. Was that? Any further discussion? Seeing Seeing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed say nay. Passes unanimously. We are on to our reports and recommendations. H one is zero in admission bus assessment report, and this will be presented by transit and parking services, Mike Collins. I'm not Mike. I'm sorry. Council president, mayor, council members, I'm Iya Shiong, transit and parking director. We also have here Mike Collins,
who will be presenting. He's our transit project manager. And then online, we have our consultant, Hatch, available for questions. I just wanna provide a quick overview of the department and where we're at with our vehicles, and then turn it over to the experts. Alright. This is our department right now, transit and parking. What I wanted to show here is our, for us, there's two contracted operators, one for transit and one for parking. And then we have our city teammate staff. We also have our departments that support us. The reason why I show this is that,
about six years ago, our department was a staff of approximately three. So we have grown. We have, definitely, provided more service, different types of service. And, there is just a little bit more complexity to transit and parking. As a summary for transit, we have different types of services, our fixed route, which is our big buses, our Zips paratransit, and then we have our micro transit pilot, called RPT Go. And then, of course, our bus rapid transit in the next, year. As you see on the bottom there, we have different types of vehicles. We have diesel buses, our 40 foot diesel buses.
We have four sixty foot EV buses. We have our the cutaways is what are, paratransit vehicles. And then we have three, hybrid minivans and then three, electric SUVs. So that's currently what our vehicles are. And then for bus rapid transit, these are the services of the bus rapid transit. We are currently if you look at the bottom there on the left, there's 12, 60 foot electric buses that we are currently in the process of, purchasing. And that will then be included in in our fleet. As you can see,
we have a mix of, diesel and electric. And I will I think with that, I'll turn it over to Mike to explain why we're here today. Sure. Council president, council members, why we're here today is, I think it's important to maybe rewind a little bit. And we were we had the opportunity to avail of, low and no grants and bus and bus facilities grants in the past. So we have had some successful applications in 2019. We received two EV buses similar to what you see on your screen. In 2021, we received two more.
And then in 2023, we received a grant for the 70 Fifth Street Park And Ride and our bus stops improvements. And in 2025 is when we hope to receive our final grant for the North Broadway Park And Ride. A couple of regulatory things have changed since these prior successful grant applications. Now, if we are to apply for future EV buses or for facilities that involve an EV component, the FDA is requiring that we have an EV transition plan, which is the plan I'm presenting to you here today.
So this is a federal requirement if we were to avail of these grant programs, like we have been successful for in the past. I should say as well, just as a note, this is a living document. So, any time that we're talking about grant applications, it is continued upon those grant applications being successful. So, what we'll present in the following slides, will be affected on how successful we are with our grant applications. Facilities grants, I've given a couple examples of, of what these grants have funded for the city Of Rochester in the past. Grants have funded for the city Of Rochester in the past. But they can range from anything to replacement rehabilitation of,
buses and related equipment, such as our chargers, things of that nature, new facilities, anything, kind of related to, bus stops, park and rides, bus depots, those types of things. Low and no emission programs, that's primarily focused on, low or no emission vehicles. So that could be hybrid hybrid vehicles, fully electric vehicles, liquid sorry, hydrogen natural gas, liquefied natural gas, sorry, and compressed hydrogen. So those are the types of vehicles that these two programs can fund. And so that is part of the reason for the report.
Another component to the report. So, there are requirements for the FDA that they have that you're required to include in these reports when you do them. That is a long term fleet management plan. So that's a very important note because they study our current fleet. They analyze the lifespan of our fleet. Our current diesel bus lasts for about twelve years. And so, that that retirement schedule comes into comes into play when when discussing this. It also analyzes resource availability. So, that's in reference to these rent programs. And then policy legislation, facility evaluation, supplier partnership and workforce training.
So really what they're trying to do is they want to make sure that if you are applying for an EV bus or a grant, that has to do with your facility, that you're doing it in an educated way, in a prepared way that, is kind of moving in a systematic direction and not really kind of a hodgepodge of different, different things that may or may not work. So that's really the purpose of this is to make sure that it is a cohesive plan and that your applications for these grant programs, are done in a cohesive manner. So a couple key findings that I just wanted to present to council. So,
as part of this plan, we studied our current bus routes, our current buses, and a few things that are noteworthy. One is that 69% of our current blocks can transition to EVs tomorrow. So the battery capacity on EVs can pick up those routes and those blocks straight away. The additional 31%, those can transition to EV with some modifications to the way we do our blocking. And the way you do your block is essentially the way you the way we do our blocking. And the way you do your block is essentially the way you interline your buses throughout the day. So if you give a driver a work shift,
that usually they'll run different routes throughout that day, but it will encompass an eight hour shift or however long they're on the route. So that's good news that a lot of our blocks, we don't need to make a change to. So if we had an EV bus, we can simply put it on those nearly 70% of routes straight away. The additional changes that might need to take place, that's a relatively easy change. Those are just really playing with your blocking and making sure it'll work. On the other side, you'll see that the vans and the cutaways, this is primarily for zips.
The technology for those vehicles has not advanced as quickly. So those are less feasible at this current time. Of the routes that we currently run for Zips and paratransit and we use our cutaways, EV vehicles in this world, sort of in this realm of service, are only feasible for about 14% right now. We hope that this technology will grow over the number of years. We're starting to see some progress there. But right now, the technology is just not caught up to the demand that we would require of those vehicles. So the transition plan,
we wanted to keep this plan in line with the city goals, with the state goals of kind of a clean transition by 02/1950. And I believe the city goals are to cut down greenhouse gas by 30 by 50% by 02/1930 and by 100% by 02/1950. That's the timeline that you're seeing presented here is us abiding by that city goal and transitioning our fleet to, to a fully electric or zero emission fleet by 02/1950. Like I said at the beginning, this is a contingent upon grant funding. So this timeline is it is a bit of a living document,
just depending on how successful or unsuccessful we are with these programs. And so, really, what we would hope to do is apply for it's not always realistic to get a grant every single time you apply. We've learned that we've applied for grants and we didn't get them. So when we apply, we would apply hopefully every you know, as frequent as we would like. But the ultimate goal in order to stay on schedule for our 02/1950 transition is about six vehicles every three years. So that is that's kind of the timeline we're looking at, as we begin to kind of look at this transition.
And what is being blocked out a little bit by the letters there at the bottom, you guys might have it on your screen, is a Phase one and Phase two, just to provide a little bit of context on that. Phase one is the capacity of our current transformer at the PW TOC. We already have some electric bus infrastructure up there and some chargers, and that we will reach capacity probably by about 02/1930, '2 thousand and '30 '1, if this plan goes according if this, transition goes according to plan. Phase two is with the, expansion with the new transformer and with that, expanded
capacity. So also as part of our transition, we do need to procure more chargers. So that kind of takes me back to that last point I was trying to make that we do have a current transformer that will reach capacity eventually. But we will need to kind of make an expansion if we're to complete the full transition by 02/1950. And this is really just laying out how many chargers we will need. The current chargers we have, each have, three dispensers each, which means you can charge three buses at one time with one charger. So this lays out the amount of chargers we would need,
not necessarily the amount of dispensers. So as part of this, this plan, we did assess the facility where we currently are located at the PWTOC. Part of that is assessing the electrical infrastructure that we have. The other part is assessing capacity, which we'll get to both here in a little bit. In terms of, existing capacity that we have on our one transformer, you'll see in the one graph that there is that black line. That's the black line where we're going to need to make another large investment, get another transformer and begin to, look at how we can do that and then obviously add the chargers that will
come after that. And then the chart on the right really just lays out the number of vehicles and chargers and dispensers required. Facility assessment. So one of the good things that we did when we made our first purchase of four electric vehicles is we prepared for future expansion. So actually our facility is already pre equipped for this expansion. We obviously would need the new transformer when we got to that stage. But we do have existing room on our current transformer to accommodate new chargers. That's kind of what's being displayed here. If you look at the kind of the bluish green lines,
those are our current, chargers. We are getting, two new chargers down at West Transit Village, just a little bit separate. But what you'll see demonstrated in the pink would be future chargers. And this is the layout of the current PW TOC. So if we were to go full, EV transition, this is the amount of kind of chargers and dispensers that would need to be displayed throughout our facility. And the number of buses that we're projected to have at that time, we should still fit in our facility as long as there's not unexpected growth, that that we we can't foresee at this particular time. So the capital plan.
Doing some of this is expensive. So, they also, as part of this assessment, we assess how much it's going to cost. And this really lays out how much it's going to cost for phase one and phase two. So during phase one, it is going to cost be about $11,000,000 Again, most of this is if we are successful with our grant applications, the grant applications that we are applying for usually cover 80% of the cost. So, that 20% would fall on Citi, whether it be retained earnings or some other some other form of coverage.
So for Phase one, we're really looking at just over about $2,000,000 worth of Citi costs to accomplish that Phase one goal. And during phase one, what you're seeing displayed on the in the total numbers that you're being is displayed on the screen, that includes both vehicles and chargers. So phase two is more expensive. It's also a longer time period. And that would, cost roughly a total of 35,600,000.0, in today's dollars. Obviously, this is an extended plan that goes out to 2050,
and some of this is is subject to change. And that is why this is considered a living document, not necessarily something that's set in stone right now. So to kind of summarize, the plan. The grant opportunities that we're, we're we plan to apply for, they're competitive. So to, the ones that we are hoping to apply for, they will cover 85% of vehicle costs. If we are to apply for infrastructure and facility costs, they would cover upwards of 90%. The traditional match that we get from the federal government is around 80. So that's what the the the projections and the cost projections that you've seen on
the previous page, that was based off an 80%, just because some of this might be might be facility, some of it might be vehicles. And it usually just does end up around that 80% mark. This plan is required to apply for those fundings. So, so that's why I'm here today. That's why we went through this process of creating the plan. And then, the funding application is with the detailed implication. So if we are to make a funding application, if you include your detailed plan, most of the time that puts you in a better position to avail to be competitive when you make those applications.
Kind of a high level transition summary. So 100%, EV is achievable for our fixed route with some operational changes. That's good news. Rochester doesn't have a large number of hills that or mountains that would prevent us from using, EV technology. So we we can achieve a 100%, emission free fleet. Paratransit, that goes back to one of the earlier slides. The technology in that realm has just not progressed to the to the level that, that is required at this particular time. I will say they are making strides. I've been seeing a few,
vehicles come out over the last number of years, but, that will probably take a little longer, and we're not a % sure if that will coincide with our 2050 goal. The facilities, we we would require some upgrades. Obviously, we would require new chargers. We would require, potentially some some minor different layouts. But, really, we would just have to equip our facility to accommodate the extra electrical infrastructure that gels with our operations. And then as I said in previous slides, phase one is a little bit, cheaper because we're working with our existing transformer, and that would cost around $11,000,000.
Phase two is a little bit more expensive. That is also a longer period of time. That's about $35,600,000 and a full transition is about $46,000,000, from now until 2050. And then with that, I will take any questions. Thank you. Council member Wall. The current federal administration seems to be less conducive to Yeah. Supporting these kinds of So, it is considered in part of the when we went through this plan,
we had gone through a couple different iterations. One was a little bit more of an ambitious plan that would get us there in 2041. The one we presented to you is the longer range plan. And the reason we presented the longer range plan was because we considered that. In terms of the future that the administration and some of the changing in priorities, that kind of remains to be seen. As of now, these grant programs are still available to us to for it to apply for. Until we get notice otherwise, our intention is to proceed. But I I I see he has come back up and she might have more information. Council president,
council member Ball. So if you recall last year, of course, it's there's lots happening, but, last year, we initiated this plan. And in that process, we obviously didn't know what the future, was gonna tell. So the plan is in the works. It's in the works. It's done. It's completed. Where we, have this plan that if there is, still continuing, the federal program, that we are available. This is available and it's ready to go. So, it doesn't set us back, but it definitely helps to, keep this plan moving. And the second question,
that may be in our favor, would you see any potential for a breakthrough in, charging, chargers, batteries, EVs that would somehow reduce prices in in the future? Oh. Reducing prices is always a tricky one. Electric buses are more expensive than diesel buses. There's no doubt about that. If there is improved technology, it's possible those prices will come down, but we would have no way of knowing. What I will say is that the charging infrastructure has has generally caught up. That that is that is getting there. And even the buses,
the first generations that came out in 2017, '20 '18, those types of first iterations of these electric buses were less reliable than, the future generations that that that we'll be getting, hopefully for the link service and and things like that. The, you know, the reliability is improved and things of that nature. Maybe I I'd like to if our consultants are online, they are the experts on that and they see more than we do. So if they are online, if they have anything to add. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Can you can you can everyone hear me? Yes. We can hear you if you want. Could you state your name and then just go ahead?
Yes. Yes. My name is Mihir Bodaria. I was project manager for this particular study and I'm with Hatch as Pauline mentioned. So just to answer that question about the cost of the vehicles, what I would say is that the cost in relative terms in terms of the amount of energy that is packed in the battery pack has come down. So if you look at the cost per kilowatt hour of energy that the battery packs can store is has gone down. So essentially what we are seeing is the newer and newer buses,
that are coming out or any type of vehicles for that matter that are electric come with higher storage capacity. So since, like, ten years ago, if you look at some of the bus models, they they had seen at least 3% to 5% improvement year over year in terms of the energy density and so you get the longer effective ranges out of these battery packs. So eventually it will get to a point where the range will be sufficient and you could start having the same cost I mean, you could start having the same amount of energy on board and the unit cost
dropping and that I could see resulting to lower unit cost of the buses themselves. But, but, yeah, that that's what I would say. That's what we have been observing in this year. Thank you. Other questions? Council member Wahl? Council member Palmer. Just a quick one. Money wise, you you said 80%, so that leaves us with $2,000,000 Where would you get that money? Council president, council, member Palmer, currently the way our funding goes with our, vehicles is that it's funded through the state. And so their program is only based on diesel. And so when the buses are scheduled to be replaced,
which is on about a twelve year, useful life, they will, provide a grant for us. And then, when we do have that, we would pursue, the federal grant on top of that. So there will be a mix of federal state funding, and then other available funds. Our funding has always been 20%, roughly, with our regular diesel buses. And so, whatever difference that is, is where we would then have to, assess and see how we can make up for that. Whether it's retained earnings, whether it's new proposed tax levy,
which has never been done before. But that would need to be considered before we even apply. We'd have to make sure we have those, what that funding looks like. Council president. Oh, go ahead. Council president, council member Palmer, I think it's really important to share that, at least in my understanding of the current transit retained earnings, there's not enough based on this project. And so the local, a significant amount of local, if you're talking about six buses a year, assuming there's federal grants, which I think is a very large assumption right now based on what we're seeing,
based on what the language has come out. We don't know yet that landscape is moving every day. But that is not in any of your trend lines for the tax levy and if you're talking about approximately $300,000 per bus needing to have local share, that's like $1,800,000 a year. So I'm just going to Go ahead. I'm all for a plan. I think it's great. And then we don't know what the federal government is going to do. I understand that. But I don't I mean, right now, our private tax does not go to our bus service. And and I would not want to approve this if that's the thought that we
had is that we're gonna go to the property tax. So if we're not going to property tax, I'm all in favor of this. But if we're gonna go property tax, I'm I'm not in favor of this this plan. Administrator Zelens. Maybe I can clarify. I don't think you're deciding that this evening because there's a lot of unknowns, but I think this plan shows that if you were to move forward at this pace, which is a living document, is what we've heard six times this evening. If even if all of the federal grants were available, there would be a significant conversation that need to happen about how you were going to meet the local share. But adopting this does not mean that you have to follow this exactly.
Can I just add to that too? Oh, go ahead. So this plan is not committing any funding source funds at this time. So Council member Keene? Yeah. I I think I I mean, I realize this is a plan being presented to us, but I think it would be good if the council did formally vote on accepting it as a plan, and it's not a commitment to spend. But I would like to make the motion to receive and file the zero emissions bus transit assessment report for Rochester public transit provided by Hatch and Associates and Consultants.
Second. Motion made by council member Keane and seconded by council member Palmer. Further discussion, council member Keane. Yeah. Again, I I did have one question when you talked about Rochester's good because we don't have as many hills, but early on there was a huge problem with winter heating. Has that been resolved through other methods than using the the main battery? Yeah. So, all of our current electric buses, they do have diesel heaters Okay. Which allows which allows us to increase our range when we're running. And those diesel heaters, they don't it's they don't emit that much emissions.
The the gas tank's quite small. And I think it was one of the early problems in like, Duluth and these other places. So I just wanted to to bring it up because I think it's important that that be solved and not be draining the the the main bus battery. Yeah. Mayor Norton? Yeah. So first thank you for the plan. Appreciate it. Keeping us toward our goals is important and we're going to have to go with the ebbs and flows of both policy changes as well as the financial changes which get better over time for a lot of these products. So I'm anxious to keep watching the trends.
I think it's worth noting that there are other benefits to this that we don't often talk about which is Rochester has been doing a lot of work on air quality, having this many buses being converted to, from diesel and gas, but diesel to electric will have a significantly positive impact on air quality. So I think that's important in our city for health Health to remember. I did have a question about your timeline that you were talking about. One of the things I've heard and maybe it was just rumor and misconception, but that there's a large turnaround time for between the time you make an order
and you get delivery. And so as I saw your timeline, it said twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven. Are you able to get them fast enough? Yeah. So I can speak. We we're actually in a going through that process right now, for for the link buses. And we had our contract, I think by the time it was finalized, it was either late spring or early summer of last year and we're due to expect the buses to arrive on-site, the first one at least, in midsummer of twenty twenty five. So that just gives you an idea of timelines.
Of course, it can change depending on how busy the manufacturer is and things of that nature. But, in our experience, it's about a year to a year and a half, just obviously depending on the manufacturer. Yeah. That's really helpful because in some of the other folks I've been talking to as much was years with an s, not just a year. So that's great. I think a lot of that backlog was COVID. Right. And we're hopefully getting a little bit past that that particular stage. Stage. Great. And then just to your point earlier, my screen did something funny. A lot can change with technology between now and 02/1950. I mean the things we're talking about and purchasing now will evolve a great deal
between now and then. So I appreciate that it's a living document. And, Council well, I'm not sure which one brought it up. One of the Council members brought up the issue with the federal. Was that you, Council member? Yes, well. The changes at the federal level. And so there's this mixed messaging about whether EVs are going to be in or out. And if the EVs are in, is the is the charging out? I mean, so we're we're just going to have to play it by ear as we move along. The last, question I had, and maybe it's for the consultant and maybe it's here. I know with my electric vehicle over time I've saved money because I haven't purchased
gas since 2017, haven't been to a gas station. And I can track the amount of electricity I use. Do we have I know buses are larger and you know, harder to run than a car is. Are you able to have that comparison about what savings do you get by not purchasing gas? And I will say I have yet to have a mechanical issue with my vehicle. So I also don't have oil changes and all those other things that are so if you had and maybe you haven't had them long enough for some of that comparison, but I wondered if I didn't see any comparison to if you had stuck with
gas. Yeah. So, sorry. We do have, we do have technology that tracks how efficient our buses are. And then it tracks the charging and it tracks a lot of that. It's a little bit difficult because we don't have 60 foot diesels. So it's not necessarily an apples to apples comparison. But we we do have technology to show. I I think one of the main things that we would like to or that we hope to see is if the cost of the buses themselves go down. Because then that would make that a lot more of a lucrative, purchase.
And and hopefully, that is the case in the coming years. Yeah. So if I'm understanding correctly, the gas to electric isn't the issue. It's the the price of the vehicle themselves that really sets it off. Yeah. The upfront cost is Yeah. Is higher. Yep. Thank you. Yep. Council member Miller. Yeah. Thanks for this report. I think it's great. Just a couple of questions. I I know, again, living document has come up a few times. Obviously, changes in technology, some of these numbers are in today's dollars. Are these updates that can be made at the staff level, or is there a suggested update frequency that we would expect to reengage a consultant
on this project over time? Sure. I I think most of the updates as long as they're, just relatively like timeline adjustments, those those we do plan to make at staff level. If there's a significant breakthrough in technology or if we had been unsuccessful for a period of time, we might need to reevaluate. But if it's, you know, just a year or two down the road, we expect those, adjustments to be made in house. Yep. I can add to that too. So if you think about it, if we don't, purchase according to that schedule, it just builds up. And then our diesel then just gets added on.
And so, eventually, if we if twenty fifty is the goal, then we're gonna need to purchase 50 buses at some point in time. So and then something needs to to be adjusted. So eventually, we'll need to update it, but, and then also it depends on what the if there's new federal requirements, and what the change of the, out out, you know, what it looks like. Okay. Thank you. Any further, questions on this? If not, there is a motion on the table. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed,
say nay. Passes. Thank you. Moving on to our second report which is the Destination Medical Center strategic redevelopment funding for Second Street Public Realm enhancements And this will be presented by Josh Johnson. Yeah. Good evening, Mayor, Council President, Council Members, Josh Johnson. I'm the City Strategic Initiatives Director. So happy to be here to provide a brief presentation on the Gerard Second Street Public Realm Enhancements project. This project was presented and approved at the February 6 DMCC meeting.
So this I know several council members were in attendance for that. So this is sort of following a similar presentation. So the Gerard Second Street project, we're requesting to authorize approval of utilizing DMC strategic redevelopment funds to help support the Second Street public ground enhancements. The amount we're requesting to authorize is $2,372,500 the split out or the rationale for that number is, DMC did commission an independent appraisal to to, quantify the land value. That ended up being about or not about,
but $1,442,672 that's essentially purchasing three residential size lots in that location. The construction of the mid block pedestrian plaza, the improvement cost for that for the, for the paving, the streets, the lighting, the landscaping, everything that goes into it is estimated at $929,828 this project also includes the development of a four unit affordable for sale condo project, which I'll go into a little more details here. Project features.
So I already mentioned the four unit for sale workforce condo. It also includes this mid block connection connecting, First Street to Second Street. It'll include public space, which we privately managed and maintained. Sort of a bonus element to that is there is 133 unit mark area project that none of this funding is going towards the development of that project. The 2,300,000.0 is only focused on the site for the condo and the improvements for the mid block connection. There will also be some small, retail ground floor retail to help activate Second Street as well as activate that mid
block connection. This is just a little bit of context slide. So Drive Properties has been a longtime developer, long time property holder in the city of Rochester. They were one of the first ones to develop a apartment complex on the South End of downtown. They also attracted People's Food Co op, which has been a tremendous amenity to that neighborhood, providing food and healthy food options to the neighborhood and surrounding downtown. They also constructed and operate the park apartments, which is on North End of Cutseve Park. Very, very notable projects. But I think what's most noteworthy is their connection to the public space,
the artwork they include, you know, the public seating options with the park apartments. They worked very, very closely with our parks department to make sure that it seamlessly integrates with the Cascade Lake Trail connection and Cascade Lake or not Cascade Lake, Cascade River connection and trail connection. So we have a lot of confidence and faith that they'll, do a very, very similar high quality project here. This is just a slide showing the 25, or the half mile walk shed or point two five mile walk shed, sorry, five minute walk shed around the development site, which is indicated with that black area in in green line.
It also shows where the potential link rapid transit stations are gonna be at. So the Sixth Avenue is within that five minute walk shed in the Saint Mary's transit just outside of it. The other thing here to note is we often refer to as sewer blocks. So in this case, the block's actually about 1,600 feet long. If you look at other blocks in our downtown, they they range from, like, 300 to 360 feet long. So it's truly a sewer block. I actually measured it multiple times just to make sure that 1,600 foot, you know, number is correct. So what this does is help,
you know, break up the connection point, create better connection from the Kutzky Park neighborhood to to the amenities along Second Street as well as, transportation options. This is just showing in that highlighted area the the portion of property that we're acquiring with this funding. So there are currently two unoccupied homes on First Street that we'd be acquiring, to make way for that affordable, condo project and then connecting that mid block connection, which is about 10,700 square feet. The public benefits of this,
you know, the mid block connection is actually identified and I could go back here. I I missed this. On the first slide here, so that image on the on the bottom right hand corner is actually an image from our Second Street quarter plan that was completed in 02/2009. Those blue arrows there actually show, like, the the connection there, also states that we should work with, neighbors and community members to make that connection happen. You know, sixteen short years later, we're able to to accomplish that. So coming out of that plan,
we were working with the developer to create a high amenity pocket park to enhance the public realm. The Kutzky Park neighborhood, obviously, off also offering amenities like coffee, cafe. The plaza itself is going to be closed off to car traffic. Also on this bottom right hand picture, you can see a gate there. So there's gonna be a gate that will allow if hopefully, there's never a need, but for fire trucks, emergency vehicles, but also allow for the garbage pickup about twice a week to actually go through there. But it will be closed off to any vehicles. You can see they've identified an area that's a public space.
There'll be some, outdoor cooking areas here. So it it's also a connection, you know, into the back of the building and behind the building, a connection of that mid block connection as well. The architects have taken a lot of consideration on creating playful amenities to really attract people to this spot. You know, they realize that just by creating a mid block connection or a plaza, you know, you you need something for people to do, places for people to sit, people things for people to interact with. So that's what that's what the intent here is to show. Also note that all of the maintenance and operation to the plaza,
it will be city owned, but will have a, recorded on the apartment project will be the operation and maintenance covenants so that in the future, even twenty years from now, if the property sells, the owner of that apartment complex will still be responsible for the operation and maintenance, but basically run for the life of that apartment complex. The for sale condo project, I feel like is exciting as that Nibloc connection is. Having a for sale condo project downtown to me is even more exciting. We haven't had a condo project downtown since the late nineteen eighties that I could find. The only other condo developments that we've had are outside of downtown,
much smaller scale, and they were about 2,001 was the last time I could find one. So in this case, we're the the developer, Gerard, and the city have been working with, First Homes. The, First Homes has a grant from the MHFA to buy down $124,500 of the cost of each unit. So the actual construction cost of these units is around 324,500, probably gonna be a little bit higher than that. But because of that grant, first homes can buy those down to, to sell to people that can qualify for mortgages of up to $200,000
So truly affordable, you know, workforce housing projects. And then basically in summary, so, we're requesting allocation of that $2,372,500 in GSIA, which is the strategic redevelopment funding in our DMCC IP, to purchase the land, work with first homes to to create those condos, and and then construct and the private developer will do the improvements for the, for the mid block connection. This is just the authorization of the funding. We still have to work on agreements,
development assistance agreements and all the other things that come along with it, but this will get us started on that course. I'll also mention, we did do a public engagement with the Kutzke Park Neighborhood Association prior to the DMCC board meeting. In my six years of doing project and community outreach, which has been on quite a few projects. This was by far the most overwhelmingly positive and enthusiastic response that we've gotten to a project. And we've provided their letter of support in the packet as well. So yeah,
It's been it's been great feedback thus far. Happy to take any questions. Great. Questions. Council Member, Fredericks. Apologize if I missed it. What is the exact address of where that walkway in that four unit will spill on the First Street Southwest? Yeah. Thanks, Councilman Fredericks. I wish I had the exact address. These right now, they're they're vacant gravel lots that actually don't even have addresses associated to them. But if They're they're on second though, the vacant gravel lots are. But on first First first rate. I apologize. I do not have the exact addresses. I can get them for you.
It wasn't a gotcha question. I was just try I wasn't trying to do that to you. Okay. So do you know the block? Because it's such a big block, it's hard to define. So if you can see the is it Sixth Avenue or sorry, Seventh Avenue basically to Eleventh Avenue? It's about in the middle. So if you just get a visual on second, just those gravel lots, basically just behind that then straight to the north of it. Yep. Exactly. It's almost like a flag shape. When I drive through there, I just wanna be able to envision it in there. That's all. Yep. Yep. Thanks. Council member Palmer. You and I have gone back and forth in some emails and so these questions
really aren't going to be, I gotcha either. But, why are we doing the fourplex? I think we're being trying to be opportunistic. First Homes has the MHA grant. We've got a willing developer that's willing to provide their quite valuable lots for the utilization to create for sale housing downtown. As I mentioned, it's really, really difficult to get condo housing developed anywhere right now in Minnesota. So being able to develop for sale housing downtown, walkable to St.
Mary's to all the shopping, the jobs, walkable to transit, connected to a mid block connection, as well as making it affordable, like those just all seem like wins. Okay. And the frustration that I'm having is with us requiring parking. And so the city is requiring them to put 66 spots and it's cost about $4,000,000 to do it as those numbers are from you. I mean, my hope is at some point in the next year, we're going to not have parking requirements for the along the rapid bus. I feel bad that these people are going to do 66 spots and then we're
going not going to require anymore, it's going to put them in a non competitive. Is there a way for us just not to require the parking? Yes. Thanks, Councilman Palmer. At this point, there's no there's way to reduce the minimums by incentives in terms of bicycle infrastructure proximity to, public transit. In this case, the developer, I don't even think we were if they if we didn't have minimums, the developer would still want this ratio. For him, parking minimum. The ratio is about point six. The actual minimum is point five. We often see developers get a little squeamish to go underneath one to one ratios.
So even if we didn't have a minimum, the developer would would still wanna have at least a point 0.6 ratio. Well, I mean, I guess my point being is we're doing the BRT and we're investing a lot of money into that. Why do we want to have parking lots along the BRT? I mean, they could go park at the North Parking Ramp or the either end of it they could park there, the city could rent them to them. So that's where I'm confused. Why should I vote for this to go, let's put more parking lots on Second Street? Mr. Yetzer wants to be heard on this. Council President Schubert, if I can chime in.
I think it's worth noting again there's an option for the developer to get the requirement down to zero if they so choose, through a transportation demand management plan. And this developer is actually choosing to provide, what was it 17 spaces above the minimum. So I think you could make the parking requirement zero and their request would be for the exact same number of stalls that they're requesting. And in fact, they're asking for more stalls off-site -site than what they can hold on-site. So I don't think it's the requirement that's driving that need. Okay.
So help me with my memory. We've got the old Kmart site in in we had to get public parking in there because we couldn't have any more private parking lots in that area. Is that not right? For lease parking lots. So this the parking being added here would be serving the building. So it's accessory to the primary use. We can't what the zoning doesn't allow is primary use parking lots. Parking lots that are just leasing parking. Okay. I just my thought is the question I'm asking is about the parking and I
don't see it right. So the next question I have for you is you show a plan from, fifteen years ago that showed a walking path between Center Street and here. I don't see where we're doing the Center Street path. Is there a reason we're not doing that? I'm sure you take that. Go ahead, mister Johnson. Yeah. Thanks, Councilwoman Palmer. So in this case, we have a a willing property owner that's willing to work with the city to create that mid block connection. I guess I'm not sure in that map. I guess I didn't see where it said the Center Street connection. It's just That one that one there,
doesn't that show it? Oh, yeah. I see that greenway. Yeah. Currently those are all privately owned and we just haven't had the opportunity or they haven't contacted us to potentially create that. So without, you know, eminent domain or some other process which would be exponentially more expensive, just not an opportunity at the time. My my my last question, I guess, is is on your path that you have here. You're showing, pavers, which I don't know why we'd want to do pavers again. But the second part of this is is how do I I tell my neighbors, you have a neighborhood connection and it's an asphalt path,
but here we're gonna do pavers and we're gonna have fountains and we're gonna have, other items on this. Why why do these guys get that and they don't own their neighborhoods? Well, I think you have to match once again the components of the exact location of where it's at. Like if this because of the superblock, because of the location and proximity to Saint Mary's Transit, all of those things, I understand that, you know, the the amenities that we're showing are gonna be a higher level. And but I I I I'll see that as an amenity to the neighborhood,
neighborhood, but folks staying at Ronald McDonald House, people visiting Saint Mary's, people at, you know, south at, Pell Hill, north at at at Kutzky Park. So, There's a lot of pride in the in the developer. It's a reflection of of his property and his work, as well as just, you know, pride in the city and and the amenities that we can provide in in neighborhoods. So we just once again, we have the opportunity here to work with the developer to help drive down these costs, sell very, very high value land to the city as well as do the construction of it. So we're taking advantage of all those possibilities.
In terms of the pavers, nothing has been decided yet. There I think the pavers were shown on maybe the conceptual rendering plan here. I think I think we can minimize those while still having accents of pavers where we still have very good accessibility, throughout the connection. So what you're telling me though is that the city is paying for the path to be built, correct? Yes. It's not the developer paying for that to be No. Built. So we're adding, I mean, so we had a 15 foot wide asphalt trail that would reflect basically what we
do everywhere else in Rochester. Miss Steinhauser? Sure. Thank you, council president Schoebring. I think, couple of things important to note here is, as indicated this isn't a transit oriented development corridor, right? So when we think about what occurs here versus somewhere else in the community, we are looking at a higher ratio of encouraging other modes including walkability and so having these really important connections are part of that whole vision of what does it mean to be in a transit oriented development corridor. As you know from the proposal, the parking ratio is 0.6,
so not what you see in other developments. So it in by nature of that indicates there's going to be more walking, more biking in this area. I would also say that, as Mr. Johnson indicated the developers willing to build this and they are contractually obligated to maintain this in perpetuity if there is a sale of the property that obligation goes with the new property owner that is not what you would see in other parts of the community whether it's an asphalt path or whatever or whatnot. So I think it's important it's
important to understand that the obligation for maintenance of this even at that higher design lives with the property owner. Administrator Zelens? Just to add one more thing to clarify this would be paid for with GSIA funding through, Yes and Yes with the destination medical center and that is only able to be utilized in certain parts of the community. Council member Fredericks. Yes. I like the idea of the four units being added down there. Obviously attractive. What's gonna be you're gonna have a line from here to outside or in Elko
to try and get into those. So what's gonna be your criteria for the four for those four units? Yeah. Thank you. What are we looking at putting in them is what I'm getting to? Yep. So the the units are gonna be constructed and delivered by Gerard. First Homes is actually gonna be doing the marketing and the retail trend, real estate transaction of the condo units themselves. So they'll do the income qualification. I also didn't mention that they're going to be put into a community land trust to preserve the affordability going forward. So, they're affordable now by being in the land trust though, even if they just Or are we talking names in a hat,
draw one out, you're the winner? Or are we how we talking? I don't I don't exactly know first on first on first. Alright. So that's what I'm getting at. It's like, there's gonna be a lot of people interested in that. Absolutely. Especially with that location. Resolution authorizing the expenditure of Destination Medical Center strategic redevelopment funds in the amount of $2,372,500 for Second Street public realm enhancement. Second. Motion made by council member Miller and seconded by council member Doreen. Council member Miller, you have the floor. Yeah. Thank you. I'll just add, that I I've not received so much public engagement and proactive comment in positive directions
as this project is received. So I I'm really grateful to the developer for practically engaging the neighborhood, particularly in Kutzke Park. I've heard great things. I've even heard this project proposal reference as couldn't you make a different theoretical project somewhere else in town followed this level of public realm enhancement? So I I hear that people are very excited about it. I did wanna ask too, just of in this question of why this investment here. I know we have GSIA, DMC restrictions. Wouldn't it also be fair to say that this is among the highest value per
acre areas of town being among the highest tax contribution in that, that we would see from a levy standpoint? It's it's one of the most valuable parts of town and this would be a further investment in future value to the tax levy? Yeah, Councilman Miller, absolutely. Whenever we do our our our tax valuation and and the highest contributing to our party taxes citywide, you know, there's the spike really where the core of downtown is, and then it sort of fluctuates out. But this is definitely in the core where you're seeing,
you know, very, very high demand for the land on the secondary corridor. Link, of course, is going to add to that and, you know, projects like this will also enhance the, the attractiveness of it. And that's why I think creating that for you and affordable accounting condo project with it because there's such high demand that we can have affordable housing so close to things of this magnitude is you know No, I think it's great. Yep. Thank you. Just wanted to call out that point as far as like the value of adding this here and making this minimums and I I think it's striking to me that, you know, we have these parking minimums,
the developers themselves are often not proposing developments at that level and so I I do kinda question along with him why why why do we have them and I'm thankful that we have some opportunity to discuss that, but just again, kinda calling out like developers are making their own decisions and we're allowing maybe not as much flexibility by having an a separate, parking minimum particularly in these core areas. Yeah. So, thank you. Council member, Palmer. Go ahead. And and I I appreciate the project and I appreciate First Homes and and the Land Trust. I don't know if everybody understands that but that will add the value and they'll
have their criteria already set on who's going to be able to afford it. So you won't be seeing high wage people living there. So thank you. Thank you. Well, I'll just add, I I was very happy to support this at the DMCC table and I will again today. And it's really I look at it and I wanna congratulate those who pulled it together, really coming together of several elements, the the walkway, the the fourplex, and the the, private development. It really looks like what we wanna see as far as building a vibrant community.
I mean, it's hard to see this not being, a vibrant area. And then to speak to, the Kutzky neighborhood, they were very thrilled with this and, just the opening up of that block and, providing that walkway. I I think we're gonna see good things out of this. So with that, is there, we have a motion. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed, say nay. Passes unanimously. Onto h, three, which is the amendment to the twenty twenty five Destination Medical Center corporate corporation capital
budget related to the heart of the city project. And this will be presented by, Cindy Steinhauser. Thank you. Good evening. Cindy Steinhauser, Deputy City Administrator. Also here with me this evening to answer questions related to this item is Steve Sampson Brown, our Director of Construction, and Jamie Rothe with Destination Medical Center. So before you this evening is a requested action related to some enhancements and modifications to Peace Plaza, specifically asking for $175,000 of approval of DMC funding to expand the smooth paver pathways on the plaza,
also conduct some additional engineering and surveying, as well as doing some visual cue enhancements to the space to direct people to the smooth pathways. The second action is really more of a what we intend to do following your action on your vote on the first action is come back with results of the engineering geotechnical surveying analysis, later this year to determine if a broader paver solution is desired. So, action two is really dependent on how you vote on action one.
So, just want to give a little bit of background. I think it's really important to have a history around this project and understand that this project has truly been a collaboration. We have walked alongside with Destination Medical Center on this project going back to 2015. In 2016, there was a community advisory committee that was established to really guide the engagement around this process and design around the project. And then you can see all the various touch points over the years related to this project, including that there were lots and lots of public meetings and prototyping.
Here's just some imagery from those years of doing public engagement, having public meetings, looking at the prototyping, bringing in people with rollable devices and having them experience the kinds of things that we were envisioning on Peace Plaza. Certainly, the activation of this space has been successful when you look at it by the numbers. Last year, we had 22 different events, whether Latin Fest or other kind of special events down there. 255 live music events that brought thousands of people down.
However, despite that, we know that this is not a successful space for for all. It is not working for all. And so we have, gotten feedback, particularly those from the visually, mobility, and neurologically challenged, populations, and they're not able to experience this space fully and in a way that really meets their needs. And so, we turned our engagement to a more targeted approach in terms of interacting and getting feedback from those community members and developing what we think is is an incremental approach
to trying to address their concerns. What we heard were what's before you related to navigating the space, particularly having clarity around where are the navigable portions of the space and how can we enlarge that. So we got that feedback and took immediate action. We took immediate action on making some improvements to resetting pavers that were there, providing some additional signage to highlight we know we need to do more, doing some additional preliminary engineering evaluation,
and continuing to get some additional stakeholder input. Out of that, we developed a goal for this next response, right? And particularly, our goal was thinking about how we could achieve a wider, more uniform surface through the plaza area with concentrated pedestrian movement, really making it easy and clear where the navigable portions of the Peace Plaza areas are intended to be. We then engaged RDG and apologize this slide is hard to read to help us
translate what we heard from this last round of engagement with specific community populations, from, again, mobility, neurological, and visually impaired members to not only preserve the aesthetic, the art, and the experience of the Peace Plaza, but really improving the walking experience and developing a high level improving the walking experience and developing a high level, cost estimate of different options to try and address this, need. So what you see here on this slide that didn't share at the, study session, but sharing with you this evening are, five options that we landed on for RDG to provide at a very high level
what we should consider. We started with the very, minimal. What do we do to just maintain a design as currently designed? It requires some annual maintenance, annual maintenance roughly looking at $25,000 to $50,000 a year. There will always be ongoing annual maintenance for this space, but we know until the pavers are finished having settling, that maintenance might be a little bit higher. The second option was providing some additional smooth pavers to increase the walking portion of
the, the design. And that is the, obviously, the recommendation that is before you this evening. That is at a cost of $175,000 Again, it's for expanding that walk area. It's adding some additional visual cues, whether it's signage, whether it's And then there were a couple of other options. It was everything from, the And then there were a couple of other options. It was everything from do we rip them up and replace with engraved pavers? Do we flip a larger amount of the area to increase the amount of smooth pavers? Do we remove the pavers temporarily, lay a more solid concrete foundation underneath and reset the pavers?
And as you can see, the options range. So, options three and five, generally, at again, very high level, range from roughly best estimates we have right now, dollars 3,000,000 to $5,000,000 Budget ranges for option four, again high level, dollars 600,000 to 1,000,000. And actually, I have to clarify, it's more like 800,000 to 1,000,000, based on some new information today. And it's not just about cost, it's also about understanding the time impact. Again, why we were bringing option two before you because we can do it very incrementally
in small sections throughout the summer. We can do it in a way that we just do smaller quadrants like 20 by 10 space that doesn't block doors, doesn't keeps a large portion of the walkway open. So, we're not interrupting and disrupting businesses that are down there. We're able to work around special events that are already booked. Options three, four and five have greater implication in terms of the disruption of the area. Still would want to work around to our best of our ability, but there would be greater disruption. We'd have to think about what that looks like with our partners.
And it's a longer time period. There is more significant design and engineering involved, six to nine months. More significant construction time period could be as much as fifteen months for construction. So, construction time period could be as much as fifteen months for construction. So, again, why we're bringing option two before you. Option two, it talks about expanding the current 10 foot to 12 foot smooth, travel portion of the area on both sides to 14 to 16 feet. Here is a visualization of what the current design looks like is on the gray side, the gray image. On the right hand side, the darker yellow shows you where the existing smooth pathway is.
The brighter yellow shows the additional expanded area of smooth pathway. So again, expanding two feet all around, creating connections smooth connections into the, water fountain feature and then north south connections on either side of the road. That is what we are suggesting be done as part of, option two recommendation. I think it's really important. People have asked about how does this compare to what used to be there. Here's an image of what used to be there. What used to be there was smaller sidewalks on either side,
a lot more obstruction when you think about more permanent obstructions that cannot be moved, and then, of course, grass. Grass is the prominent feature of the former design. Grass from a navigable, high friction space texture because of its soft surface. And so, again, thinking about the current design, soft surface. And so, again, thinking about the current design and what the community wanted to see, wanted to see more navigable spaces, wanted to open up, create more flexibility than what you see from the most recent design, most recent, space. So again, what we're talking about, opening up that, smooth walkway area to 14 to 16 feet.
What it would look like is the work would begin as soon as the weather is warm and we're done with the frost heat that happens throughout winter, so hoping sometime in March that frost leaves and we can get in there. Again, want to be really clear when we talk about incremental, it's to do small sections, can be done in, in a week's time, bring members of that community back and say, how does this work? How does this feel? So we can continue to test it on a week by week basis or as we complete those,
those, quadrants of improvement, keeping access to businesses open, keeping access to a majority of the space for the public to navigate. Then coming, again, also implementing those, other visual cues, whether it's signage, whether it's other things that guide people to the 14 to 16 foot pathway. Coming back to you by end of summer, roughly August, with additional information on what we have determined through as they pick up those pavers and flip them and see explore what's underground and understanding settlement,
surveying and understanding settlement that way, and what that might mean for future efforts, both coming back with that analysis as well as how did what we did this summer in terms of expanding that smooth area, have an impact on people to experience this space. Again, the action before you is to, approve the 175,000. This was an action at the DMCC board on February 6. They approved the 175,000. And so that is what we're here, for you to consider this evening. And I think with that,
I'll end and have you take questions. Thank you. Steinhauser, questions? Council member Keane. Yeah. I think I understand the the one seventy five, but there was a thing in option one there when you talked about maintenance. And this is important to me. I I a lot of our language is always about the the raised letters, but there's also this this idea of the shifting pavers. And I'm wondering how much maintenance can address that. Is there right now, we hear about the tripping hazards and some of that's the raised letter, but I think some of it is also the disparity, especially now when you get to spring after the freezing and thawing.
Is that something additional maintenance can improve or is that something that's just we have to wait and see and see how it is in year three, year four? I'll give you an answer a little of both. So if there's a budget of guesstimating 25,000 to 50,000 a year, we can certainly like Sunish showed previously in the photo, have somebody go out every spring if a paver heaved or something. Now there's a snow melt system, so there's not frost in the ground, so you don't shouldn't see heave pavers as you traditionally would,
but they certainly move. Yeah. So we can catch those edges after two or three years. If generally the the the deep earth settlement is done, then whatever we reset should really stay there and not move again. So maybe we come back after three years in a row, and we can skip a year and not spend anything. And maybe by year 10, we're go coming back every three to four years. Okay. One of the unknowns, as you mentioned, is we just haven't done any, I'll call it engineering or surveying analysis to or geotechnical analysis to be confident that
I can stand up here and say Right. What you're about to invest in should never move and will be like that for twenty years. No. No. And and I appreciate that. But what I'm getting at is that I I again, this is a slightly different problem statement that we're caught up with the capital investment to do something. And I heard staff talking about we can do some stuff with maintenance. What you said is like at the beginning of the summer, and I'm wondering if that's more of a weekly sort of somebody checking to say, hey, everything looks good. Or do we do that in a maintenance thing just through our normal maintenance and
make sure things are good? Or is that a once a year thing, otherwise we just answer complaints? And I'm I thought I was hearing that we can do some more with maintenance as opposed to capital investment. Yes. Thank you for the clarification. And you are correct. And we do have maintenance going on right now, right? We have partners at DMC and RDA every single day, particularly in the warmer weather when more people are out there. For example, the Clean, Green and Safe ambassadors are out there three times a day, resetting tables, wiping things off, getting moving them out of the travel,
portion of the plaza if if someone moves a chair, whatnot. So that is exactly their job every single day, you know, Monday through Saturday, and then I think it's two days on Sunday. So what we have done is, in addition to that, have ramped up, like, look for these things. What other things do we do? So annual maintenance is not only that, annual maintenance is what kind of cleaning do we do after end of season, major festival season, like massive power washing to power wash the grease away and power wash and get
a better finish, for example. Right? What is the maintenance we do to repair lights or do repairs to street furniture? So, just your typical maintenance of a capital project is part of it and then what Steve is implying also is in this in between stage while there is potentially still settlement, maintenance could also include do we have to go in and reset a paver because there was a little bit of heave, right? So, we do have people out there particularly after this last round,
people out of conversation going out there and doing that assessment. And we have Steve's team is working on updating with parks all of the SOPs and adding SOPs around maintenance and monitoring of this space. Yeah. Maybe what is SOP, sorry? So, standard operating procedure. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. So, I mean, our focus of the action in front of us really has to do with the pavers and widening the thing and and mainly for the main walking rolling areas that they're wider. But I didn't see anything about markings or signage that says this is the main
walking area or colors. Was there some talk of how do I know that's the main walking area? Is it just visually cued by the way the crimp pools on one side and the businesses are on the other? Or have we has there been any talk about delineation? Yes. Absolutely. We have talked, and we're just still ideating some of those things. But how can we use the basis of the Catenary Lights to be informational about how to navigate the space? How can we does it make sense to put I know Jamie's working, in getting some estimates on,
for example, vinyl vinyl, decals that you a consulting firm that helped us understand how people are experiencing this space before and after and a lot of their, the science behind their data is also going to be helpful in this determining what are the best and most effective visual cues that we can make, do them and then again bring people down and say does this help, is there something else that we need to be doing? Okay. So just to clarify, Council Member Keane's question, that signage is a part of the 175 Yes. That is correct.
More questions. Nope. Thank you. Council member Miller. Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity to to continue to engage with us because I think it's fair to say we've all heard a lot about this. Mhmm. One of the questions that's come up both in public comments and in in this presentation a bit is who is the space for? And I I've heard a a lot of prioritization of, you know, to be able to have a smooth navigable space. The chairs and table would be moved to the raised lettering. Is that generally the understanding that the the universal design is is really to be able to move through the space? Or how should we think of universal design and access to some of those other
features that would be still on the raised lettering? Sure. And and I'll invite Jamie Rosie to come up if she has anything else to add. So, it's important to remember the entire space was designed to be ADA compliant, right? It meets ADA compliance across the space, whether it's the raised lettering or the smooth portion. So, when we think about who this space is intended, who's intended to experience this space, it's anybody. Right? And for the most part, people are experiencing it in a fairly positive way, but that's not good enough. Like, that is not good enough for us.
Right? We need to make sure that everybody is experiencing in a way that they're comfortable and are encouraged to want to continue to come down. So whether you're a downtown resident, whether you work downtown and wanna come out there on lunch break, whether you are, a commuter, whether you're someone here in town for a convention, you should be able to experience this space in a way that works best for you and I think that's what we're trying to achieve here. And and so you mentioned also the RDA clean, green, safe ambassadors downtown moving, pieces back to their intended position.
Is RDA the, the decider of kind of how the movable aspects of Peace Plaza are laid out? Or how should we think about I guess to take a step back, when we think about what people need in the public space, you need a place to be able to move through, you need to be able to place to take breaks, sit down, have a conversation, access to bathrooms. So navigating is is one priority for sure, but how do we think about making the other aspects on the smooth area also accessible and just to more people if if we are hearing the pavers are a
particular navigation challenge, particularly for those in wheelchairs, with walkers where there's a friction with the bumps. Sure. So let me just talk a little bit about, Hardy how RDA, provides a service to this space in two ways. Not only the Clean Green Ambassadors and the ongoing monitoring every day to make sure spaces are clean and cleared, and they do that in consultation, particularly with Jamie Rothe, at DMC. So that's how that partnership works. RDA is also our partner to manage the space,
right? They book the events down there. And so, again, we are updating our standard operating procedures to create greater clarity in the information that they provide to people who might want to book this space for an event, as well as how they provide information when they do Thursdays downtown and making sure, okay, as a vendor, here's the spaces where you can set up, here's spaces where you can set up, here are your obligations to make sure you limit, how much grease spills onto the space, right, make sure that you're keeping pathways open, we're not running cords across, we're not setting up and preventing people from because that was one of the things
we heard. It's a difficult space to experience during special events. So that tells us, we've got to do a better job, not only with RDA, but us as a city in communicating when there's an event down here, the expectations and then having a presence down there and enforcing during the event. So again, that's a that is not a design problem, that is an ongoing maintenance and management problem that we identified through this process. Just a couple more questions. I was gonna ask to, I appreciate the the thinking about how long a more aggressive approach to moving additional
papers, making some larger change warm seasons, right, of use, that fifteen months? That it would be inaccessible to anyone in the public? I think that would be fair to say that we would definitely be going into a second construction season. And what I failed to mention, and I should thank you for the opportunity, is to really think about the timing of that. Right? There's a lot of construction going on. Right now, this, you know, in a matter of a month, this is going to be one of the the few spaces where people can assemble without a lot of construction happening around them. And at some point,
the construction around them will go inside and those spaces will open back up again. We we know that we want to do something eventually on the West Side Of Peace Plaza. And so our conversation internally, should you decide to go this route, right, and let us continue to monitor and measure and and engage reengage the community again on, if additional modifications are needed to do that perhaps in timing with when we do West Peace Plaza,
right, so that when we go in and we disrupt this area, we do it in a way that is very planned and very intentional and it takes advantage of doing additional enhancements that we'd like to see on the West Side, which could be quite honestly dissipates. And how soon would Annenberg Plaza be open to automobile traffic? Because that that's the other consideration, I mean, thinking of this this space and what's happening outside of Peace Plaza, but related. It's in sections. Yeah. Go ahead. Okay. So the, Mayo's proposed a multi phased approach to that.
So really most of that's happening through 2025. And so just for clarification, Anberton Plaza is on the south half of the block. Are you specifically see What's currently been a pedestrianized space, how soon might we expect some opening to travel for automobiles from that new drop off? Do you have any initial information? There's also a city project happening in that space after they're done, so there'll be some stops and starts to that too. Yeah. Steve's it's going to happen in 2025. There's just a lot of with our project and the utilities and and those projects
and making sure we're coordinating with you know the neighboring property owners and access to the Kaler for example. They're they haven't locked in that schedule specifically yet. But it's important to note that there will be limited access from the North while the South is blocked and there'll be limited access from the South while the north is blocked and then there'll be some version of that, but actual through traffic is is still indicated. We're still trying to understand when that full through traffic might happen. But it's fair to say that there is about to be this year a major disruption to the pedestrian access to that space, which is in some ways a continuity from Peace Plaza to Discovery Walk to Soldiers
Field Park, which is envisioned as a, in some ways, a continuous space. Correct? So when we think about this, I I appreciate that because I think it's important and I've been thinking about how much public space there is on each side of Second Street and I I think it's just I appreciate you bringing it up because I I I think we're about to have very limited spaces and it contrasted with the public realm project. Right? People want these spaces the public realm project, right? People want these spaces and it's hard to time it. Yeah. And I think Jamie Rothy,
I know has been really monitoring the pedestrian flow, so do you wanna speak to Annenberg Plaza and Sure. Yeah. Just to speak to that quickly, you know, we're working closely with the clinic to understand the phasing. As staff mentioned, we're trying to look at how do we support the Kaler drop off and how do they phase that. We learned a lot from the Heart of the City project when we kept the Marriott Valley open during that project if you recall. And we phased that in a way to make sure that they could keep their front door of their business open. So we're looking at a similar model. And then we're currently having conversations with the clinic about patient traffic inside. I think everybody knows as Annenberg Plaza closes down for a year.
The clinic is reconfiguring those two doors, both the Mayo door and the door and that will take about a year. So where does pedestrian traffic go and then how we're working together on a wayfinding strategy to continue and then how are we measuring that every day to make sure we're looking at where's pedestrian traffic coming from and, how are they entering into these public spaces and how I may use them during the construction. Thank you. Mhmm. Just one last question is, who is deciding at what point to stop flipping papers within this current budget and what are the criteria for how many, when is it right with this current allocation?
Allocation? That's a really great question. I think for us, we are gonna really lean into the folk the members of the focus group from visual mobility and neurologically impaired because, to understand, like, did this next measure do it? Is there more? And when have we when have we, solved enough that they feel like the space is at a point where it's more equitable in the experience. So I really think that the the public, this focus group of public members are really gonna drive that for us.
Council member Doreen. Thank you so much for coming back again this evening. I want to just lay it out from where I sit. We talked about this at a study session a week and a half ago and none of the questions that I've I don't feel like we've gotten any further with with a solution based on the feedback that I've been hearing from people. You have said multiple times in in both that discussion and the discussion tonight that most for the most part, everyone is experiencing this in a positive way. That's not what I'm receiving. By by 99% of the conversations I've had with folks,
whether that's email, lived experience, visiting with people as they're walking through Peace Plaza, it's not been a positive experience. So the concerns that I have and that I've heard, and I hope that you have some answers for this evening are, what is the cost projection of, increase increased survey study? Would it be behoove us to flip more pavers, for lack of a better word, then engage in that study process more? Is it a cost of labor versus survey or, just to make more of the place accessible for folks?
Do you understand the question? It didn't come over. I just wanna clarify. Yeah. I'm not sure. I completely understand. Maybe Steve does. But the in this January, we estimate about 25 or 30,000 for those survey, additional Just for the survey. Just for the survey. Right. So so for an additional geotechnical. But are you asking about What if we didn't do the survey? Because we know of the climate of of Minnesota and I think you heard again from tonight from members of the public and heard at at our study session last week,
is this survey, you know, needed at this point. Could we essentially then flip over $50,000 more of the papers to make it more accessible? Great. Thank you. I would say the survey is needed, but the best person to answer that is Steve, who understands the technical nature of it much better. So we could possibly, yes, just spend the money on flipping over pavers. One of the things that we would have no confidence in is we'd be back here in six months or a year saying half those pavers that we just invested in have settled. Now we need to invest more just to flatten them back out again.
The other thing we haven't checked, because we haven't had a survey crew out on the site, is we know what the original design was, and we know it was flatter in spots than what it is today. So we also need to meet the ADA standards for cross slope, 2% cross slope along the accessible route, 5% along the, 5% is pretty steep. So we're not we're not at that point yet. But it would be wise in my opinion and recommended to do the due diligence and get the survey and let's get a baseline of where it's at and then we can choose to survey it again.
Our original plan with the estimate, we got to talk to a local firm, dollars 14,000 that would actually do a three-dimensional laser survey, so we'd have a full surface and we could also understand is it potentially an area, just there's one area that's moved and 80% of it's fine? So we'll be able to have more nuanced information about the other thing to keep in mind, we don't have photos in our presentation, but there's areas that were excavated down to 20 feet. There's areas with your stock work that's unlikely to settle as much as where natural earth went in. So it's gonna be differential settlement.
Just the way the whole thing got put back together, that's that's natural. So, that that's why we came forward with a bit of a forensic budget to understand what's really going on and how can we best solve this problem once and for all. Thank you. I've I've heard again repeated repeated tonight that the the the raised letter pavers meet ADA standards. I think ADA standards are minimum for accommodation. That's the way that I interpret that. In my advocacy with the differently abled community here in town,
I would say that that is how they understand that too. How am I supposed to go back and say we're doing the minimum for you to make sure that you can enjoy this public space? Well, I I'm I'm not sure that I agree with the statement that we're doing the minimum. And so I think we'd need to quite honestly understand that a little bit better before I could answer it intelligently. Okay. I would I don't know unless Steve or Jamie have Just for some more context from the history, there's a couple photos back early in the presentation when we did the prototyping.
Mhmm. There's a image of, Anne when she printed it out in its full format, on the floors of the art center. And then, we installed a smaller installation in the basement of the art center, and looked at different heights, looked at different approaches to the art, drawing patterns, all the things that go along with installing public art. During that time and it was pretty extensive as we were going through of this, there was a lot of discussion and it doesn't again show up on here, but we looked at where were some of the higher walkways and we wanted to make sure we drop down the letters as low as possible.
So there are lower cut letters in the higher traffic areas. So I just wanna give you confidence that we exceeded the ADA standards when we were doing that. The the highest raised letters meets it but in the main walkways along first they're all at a lower stand or at the exceed the standard that is acceptable. Yep. So just, I wanted to make sure you had that context as well in this conversation. Yep. And I appreciate the prototyping, that was done to the space. I have had over the course of the past two years, I've been on crutches, a walking boot,
used a knee scooter, for transportation. And I can pretty much get over everything for a five foot span of of bumps, but I'm also concerned about the endurance that we're asking folks to to to put themselves through to enjoy this public space. So, my question again is about phasing. Right? So if we're only doing five to eight foot sections of removing pavers to make a wider walkway, are we really alleviating that concern of endurance over an uneven surface?
Yes, Neal, thank you. I should clarify. It's likely to be a larger area, but we're only doing it in smaller segments, so we are not impacting and blocking doors and creating major disruption, right? So while the area would be larger that we're doing, we're going to do it in smaller squares, so we're not creating massive disruption. Okay. And then my final question is, I appreciate you coming up with other options in the course of this past week and a half or even before before our study session. You know, I am,
I have two questions, I guess. First, in that in that intervening time, have you been able to talk to the artist about what any additional work to those pavers would how that would have an impact on their intention for the artistic expression in the space? No. We have reached out to the artist, actually, but we've not had a chance to speak with her. K. And then I understand that the timeline and and and and and public space and and knowing that it's going to be limited with everything going on, in the downtown corridor. But the response I'm hearing from folks is that they want immediate action for a
remedy, that this is truly an unusable space for them. Now these are their words. Mhmm. Not necessarily mine. So how can we at all shrink the timeline to have a more immediate impact for those who are feeling the most negatively impacted at this point? So under option I'll talk about a couple of different ways. So under option two, we could certainly condense the time period to do that. We we would likely increase the impact and disruption to the businesses in the area
and increase the disruption to planned events in the space. So we could look at a consolidated, schedule and, and then understand what that means in terms of disruption. We have heard, concerns from the businesses about impacting and their front door, and we wanna be sympathetic to that. If there are members of the community, I'm sure there are, you've heard from them, that do not feel like option two is the solution, the other options are not immediate. The other options require some pretty significant design and engineering.
That alone will take six to nine months. Six to nine months, we are into the winter. You are bidding through the winter. You are awarding, in March of next year. And then those are bigger, more intrusive solutions that will create even more disruption than a compressed schedule under option two. So options three and five are not an immediate solution. Okay. Council member, do you have any more questions? Okay. I'm just gonna ask even staff if you can be more brief with your responses. I think we did cover the the,
options five four, five, and six earlier. So but and we do have, like, four council members and the mayor that are interested in speaking as well. So I'm gonna go to council member Wall here. Thank you. In 1973, I bought a used, 1970 Ford Maverick. Unfortunately, I bought it in the summer and it got to be winter and I found out that it didn't heat. And so, about, December, I took it to someone and and said, can we do anything? So, yeah, we'll we'll flush the system maybe. So I spent money as a college kid that I didn't have.
Super Bowl Sunday, which we lost school, driving, we won that one. Driving to a classmate's place in Anoka to see the game. We were scraping, frost from the inside with credit cards so we could see. So I took it back to a dealer and spent money. I didn't have maybe a thermostat. We'll replace a thermostat. We continue to use our credit cards through the rest of the winter and we got rid of the car, owned it for one winter. I am not going to be supportive of this motion. I I think that we need to move on and find a solution,
find a new solution. I'm not going to equate this with a Ford Maverick. I think this was a gallant effort by people who planned, who who, dreamed, who hoped, and I don't think it's worked. I think it needs a new solution. I think the $175,000 is, not well spent. I think even if it took, longer time, if the community heard that we actually had a plan that would solve this for, the long term, at least I can look forward to that. Maybe by 2027, I can safely, navigate, the Peace Plaza. So I yeah,
that's just where I am. Thank you, Council Member Wahl. We'll go to Mayor Norton. Thank you. Wow, I'm taken aback by some of what I'm hearing. I just have to say this has been a long journey for all of us, and I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think that's unnecessary at this point. We have an area that is activated more than that area has ever been activated before. It is utilized by families every single day, all spring, summer, and fall. And and I understand that we have an issue,
with the pavers. I sat here in this room and said, are those pavers going to be usable for, you know, are they going to be ADA compliant, are they going to be usable people, and was told yes. And we're all disappointed that it hasn't worked out that way. I mean, I think to act like we don't care is not true. I don't know a soul that doesn't care about what's happening. I see a couple of major problems here. One is our our signage and letting people know where to go. When you had a big fountain in the way and green grass, everybody knew you went to the right and the left,
and they did. Nobody walked on the grass because it was soggy and awful. Sometimes people would take that blue path for fun, but you couldn't take a wheelchair through it. It was too narrow. And we have much more space on both the right and the left for crowds of people and wheelchairs and walkers and everything else to go. So I think we need to keep, you know, in my opinion, we need to keep this in perspective. So we need signage. When you walk out of the Galleria, it needs to be keep So we have to pull those pavers away as you're suggesting, but we also have to have signage so that it is obvious where the space is that's flat and safe for everyone. The other thing I want to get around is this idea that we need to
have to throw out all the pavers in the world. For the last well, since twenty fifteen-sixteen when I had my, Bush Fellowship, what I did was travel around, primarily Scandinavia, where it's also very cold and has the same weather issues that we do in many parts, as well as Canada and California, not looking at pavers and walkways and livable communities. And many of them have bricks and pavers. One of the beauties of having bricks and pavers is that when something when the cement breaks,
you gotta grind it all up, tear it out, and you gotta start all over. Cement is a nightmare. It's a heat heat mass. It has lots of downsides. Pavers, you pull up, you fix what's underneath if a pipe breaks or something, and you put them right back down. It I watched it happen all over Europe. I have a whole slew of pictures I've taken of people doing repairs, of the positives and the beautiful flat pavers. So I do not believe that it will never be fixed. I do believe we were not on top of it as quickly as we could have, and frankly,
I don't understand why the people that laid them haven't had some responsibility to to repair them. That's been a mystery to me. So I think cold climates have pavers of every size, bigger the better because they stay bigger and heavier, they stay longer, but I don't think we have to give up on pavers. And the repairs again can be done cheaper. The other thing, I wanted to say, thank you for the changes that you made. I know there was confusion about the yellow last time and I too had concerns about having to turn over as many as we were turning over,
but I agree that there needs to be a way to get across and I know there was confusion about the street. So thank you for fixing the sidewalk area. So there's a path down First Avenue on both sides of the street. That's a plus. And also I saw something I hadn't seen before which is flat access to the water for everyone. So that was a plus as well. So even if you have a cane or have a walker or have a wheelchair, you can still get up to and put your feet in the water and or sit on one of the wood benches and that was not there before.
So I saw that as a real positive that makes not only the the sides wider and more walkable and flatter because we're gonna fix that, but also access to the water. And so I thought that was great. So I wanted to add those things. I am absolutely supportive of Phase two and the Phase one goes with it because we have to continue to repair all the time. I do not think we should put a sea of cement in that area. That would be a nightmare for everyone and horribly ugly on top of all that.
So, for phasing, I think we can do this and I want to see that place activated again this summer just like it has been for the last several years because it's a glorious place to be in the summer, spring, and fall. Council member Palmer. Thank you. I I I think mister Wall's point is is well taken for me. I think putting signs up doesn't make any sense for for people who who are are visually impaired. That doesn't work. Steve, we've got heat underneath these pavers. Correct? Correct.
So how do you get frost underneath heated pavers? We really shouldn't. Okay. You don't. And so if you go around the male buildings where they have poured concrete and they have heat in their concrete, they don't have heaving. So why would we have heaving if we replace these pavers for a ribbon around, let's say, 16 feet? Why would we get heaving? Two potential thoughts. It might be more related to settlement than actual frost heave. The other thing is, through the large events, there's large box trucks occasionally on there. So you do have vehicle loads and wheel loads that Mayo doesn't have on all
parts of their their sidewalk. So shouldn't get a lot, but it's it's moved so far, so I'm not gonna I don't have enough information, you know, technically to rule out that it would never happen again. It should happen in a small amount, but. And and I understand that we we dug out a lot. Mhmm. But as you dig things up, you have contractors who are doing compaction tests and they compact it to a certain level. And then and then you know you're going to have pavers on top of it. You have a standard. Do we not follow that standard?
I, unfortunately, was not here to speak to that. We're looking at records But that but that would be best practices. Correct? Correct. Or even standard practice. Standard practice. Correct? Yes. Okay. In in most of our interstate systems built with concrete. Yes. And that's heavy trucks around that? Correct. Usually about six inches thick? Probably deeper than that on a highway. Okay. But Eight to nine possibly. So so these pavers, if you took out 14 feet around a ribbon and you had colored concrete or you had stamped concrete and you put that in there,
that would visually tell people this is where they could walk and could wheel. Does that seem unreasonable? I think it's a legitimate approach as one of the options. My concern would be at the edge of where we stop the concrete slab and leave the pavers. That would potentially move because it's two differential materials made out of two different things. So that may be become a maintenance area, not a significant one, but may require resetting to make sure that, because we don't have a uniform, bed. But, yes, that's an approach.
But one way you could fix that is dowel it. You could doll it into the blocks into that so they would move together. As far as this disruption, this massive disruption to fix this, you could phase how you put the concrete in and not do rip it all up and have it torn down. For two years, you could go phase it and go round, couldn't you? Yes, I mean we could do it in quarters or depending on what the appetite is for the local businesses. There's yes, we could phase it into smaller areas. Now we have work trucks, we have concrete trucks, we have some I don't know if we're going to drive a concrete truck in
there or we're going to need a pump truck, all that is interrupting First Avenue. So there's pros and cons to how what approach we do. Faster would probably be more disruptive, but be in and out. Smaller scale would be less disruptive, but longer than over time as a presence. I guess where I'm going with this is that I think we need to pick a ribbon around it, either 10 feet, 12 feet, whatever people come up with and replace it with some decorative concrete and move along. I think that's kind of what Mr. Wall was hinting towards and that's where I would be supportive of.
I don't see spending more money visualizing or getting a group together because we did a group together when we originally did this at the art center and in, you know, who who's who's going to be the person that says yes and there's always gonna be somebody who's gonna say no. That's where I'm at. Well, I'll go next. And I I also had a Ford Maverick. I think mine was a '76. It lasted three years, I think. So where where I'm struggling with this is, we've got the the, second option, a hundred and $75,000
I wanna hear what confidence level that you're gonna have, looking at you, Steve, after that, there's some engineering in there that you can come to us and say I mean, hopefully, these things are gonna settle. They're gonna be smooth. They're gonna be flat, or you've got a bigger problem than you need or you than you want. And so I'm looking for that confidence in what what, you're asking for this evening. So, we I feel like I'm I'm I don't mean to sound like a broken record,
but I feel like it's gonna sound like that. We will only know after doing some engineering and evaluation, measuring it, have they settled. If they have not finished settling, we could be doing some minor resetting again next year. I mean, I think that is fair to say. So it's understanding what's going on underneath is what will increase our confidence level. And that's a part of the 175,000,000 And that's part of the $175,000,000 And that's part of the $175,000,000 Yep. I don't know if she'd want add to that. Yeah. And again,
we're trying to stretch our budget, put the money into flipping pavers. A standard geotechnical report, 100% confidence, that's probably a $50,000 to $80,000 bill. We would have a geotechnical rig out there. We might be taking soil moisture content samples. We would be drilling. And then I could come back and say, we've had a geotechnical engineer calculate the load that the soils can take and we've had the structural engineer calculate, but that's not currently in the budget. So I'd say we'd have a moderate sense of confidence.
While the contractor is working, we will be excavating into the soils to see if we can learn anything new. Maybe it looks all the same and that provides us with some information. So but really, we don't have the full suite of engineering analysis tools where I can come back a % guarantee. What I will be able to do is come back in August and say, if you want the guaranteed solution, this is how much it's gonna cost. If you want the incremental solution, we'll have a budget for that, but I it won't as has a high of confidence because we haven't done an
analysis to figure out, do we have a problem 10 feet below ground that nobody's seen yet and no really knows about or defined? But the kind of the all in permanent fix, which replaces everything and we're close to $5,000,000 that we don't need to do the full analysis on. That one we can come back with 100% confidence and say we're going to rebuild everything and start over and do it right in terms of making sure the settlement won't reoccur, which will probably be a concrete slab that will be similar to an interstate road or something to that effect,
most disruptive. But anything, if we wanna look at the million dollar range and we're only just digging up the pavers and turning them over, that one we we don't have a full budget to do a full engineering analysis on that has a higher level confidence. Then I I I wanted to get back to, a question that council member Doring asked about the if we do go with the option two And to be honest, I am leaning towards that. I think it's cheaper to do this fix now, and, I'm optimistic, but I I think this is a long road.
We this bus has left. This is the Peace Plaza. I think I think we're making it sound a little more dire than it really is. I do think there are thousands and thousands of people that go through there and enjoy it. And, and I do remember the grassy, muddy, middle that you couldn't do anything on. But to to the, the turning the pavers now during this season. I'm seeing March to August, and maybe my eyes were deceiving me. But when we had the study session,
that looked like March to April to me. And I'm wondering if you really I mean, how much of this has to go through our whole summer season? So one of the unknowns we we haven't had time to track down with the quarry who provided the stone is when we flip them over, what you see out there today has been heat treated. The heat treated is not for aesthetic coloring, it's to provide a texture, a non slip texture specifically. The back of the stone is cut flat and smooth, similar to a laminate. We want to make sure it's rough enough where we're not creating a new problem in terms of people being comfortable walking through the space if it happened to rain
an hour ago. So we need time to figure out what is that construction process to heat treat the stone. Can we treat it on-site? Do we have to haul it off-site and have somebody treat it? That may take more than a week for us to figure out. It shouldn't take three months, but we need to solve that problem before we we've included budget in the numbers we've provided to do the heat treating. We just haven't figured out the exact process and how long that takes. So that'll be part of the can we get done by May 1 or can we get done by mid July. We'll have to see how that goes.
There's also events scheduled in the space and we need to work around those, possibly demobilize. I haven't seen the events list, so I don't know if it's 20 times we have to pull off the site or three. That's another thing that will impact schedule. Yes, if I could just add and apologize for this slide being confusing. It's really just to say, it would happen during this window of time. It doesn't mean it needs to be the entire time. Like Steve said, as we understand how best to do it, can it be done in four weeks, can it be done in six weeks, just working around stuff that's already programmed there, that's the window in which would happen,
but not that it would take every single day from March to August. Okay. Is there a motion on this item? Anybody more questions? Well, I guess just to get a motion on the table, I'll move to adopt the resolution approving the amendment for the capital improvement plan to include the additional hundred and $75,000 for the 2025 for city infrastructure improvements to be, related to the heart of the city project. Motion moved a motion made by council member Keane. Is there a second? I will second it. Go ahead.
Council member Keane. I mean, I I think we can all agree that, you know, we're we're the experience with the Peace Plaza is not where we want it to be. I've heard the staff say that. I've heard some DMC people saying it. It it that that is where we're at. And there is some, I think, disagreement on how bad it is. There's a lot of feedback that some of my peers are getting that I'm getting and other people are getting that it's unusable. And then we get other people like the people or somebody today saying that, hey, we're getting 6,000 people a day. There is definitely usage.
So I mean, I think we have to settle on where we're at with this, but I don't think we can look past this and say like, okay, this is the way it is and we're we're in good shape here. But the flip side is to say, nope, stop what you're doing in 2025 and go back and redo this. And I think that's what I'm hearing some of my peers and I I'm really distressed about that because, I mean, there's there's a couple of things. We're we're dealing with, problems that we don't have a budget for. The motion in front of us right now is dealing with what the DMC board said that they would come up with. But when we start talking about pouring concrete and doing other things,
those solutions all have to come with a funding source. It can be our contingency, but I don't think that'll cover it. It can be trade offs against other things. It can be something else, but we need we need to decide that if that's our decision making process. So just saying we're gonna do these things without a funding source, that's stressful on me because I think that's our responsibility to know how we're paying for things. The other thing, you know, when when you get when you when you start directing your staff to say, okay, we have these problems. We're gonna go back and work on these. You have to assume you're taking them off of what they're working on right now,
which is these major things with bus rapid transit and other things. Now we're we're not you know, no one's gonna say, okay, if we do this, we're not gonna do that, but it's an exposure we bring upon ourselves. So where I've tried to get myself with this sort of things is that sort of, let's all admit that we're not proud of the way this came out, but I don't think it's from somebody did this to us. This is us making a mistake. This is us going back five and seven years. And, and I know there was a mayor in the past on these councils. There was one of my peers on these design councils.
This is not somebody did something wrong or somebody tricked us. This is our project. We're DMC doesn't do projects in downtown. They help us fund things and the city does it. So when we say this isn't done right, that's we didn't do it right. So let's start with that. Not I got too many notes saying, make them fix it as if there's somebody else in the room. It's us. It's our budgets. I I really did hope we can get to the point on the sort of three things, improve the safety by removing raised letters on the main walking rolling areas, and that's sort of what you're try what your suggestion.
I don't know if it's enough, that that the other one I was looking for is improved paver stability through improved operational maintenance, as you say, operating procedures and make sure on a regular basis that anything that's going on because of heavy trucks or anything, they're settled out because my sense is the raised letters are a problem, but also just pavers in this thing. And I think I think Steve has it right that it's a settling and these these heavy construction thing. I still do believe there's some sort of signage solution here or some sort of wayfinding that helps people know where these main paths are,
as opposed to saying, yeah. And I I don't think it's gotta be signs that you have to be read. It's just cues. I'm I'm also looking at this as, like, I don't know if the standard should be you should be able to get on a wheelchair or or a walking cast roller or anything else over grass because that's what used to be down here. And if we compare that to the standard, this is not that much worse if it is worse because it used to be grass and you couldn't pass that in a wheelchair. But that somehow or other that wasn't considered something you were supposed to do, but now it is.
I want to go down this path of getting the survey, making some nominal improvements, it's not going to be the complaints aren't going to go away, but I think we'd make some improvements. And I hope we go down that path. But if I hear the solution is a bigger solution, we have to decide what we're doing shorter term. Maybe it's nothing. But if we're doing something shorter term and we're something doing something else, somewhere something's going to break. We have to figure out what we're not doing and where the money is coming from. And if we if this motion doesn't pass and we need to go to a motion to do all these other things, I wanted to include funding sources.
Council member Fredericks. Sometimes a band aid can help healing. So I think with the funding we have available from DMC to do this and to widen out areas to navigate more easily. At this point, not having a great solution and a big bucket of money just to throw at something, I do feel it's our best option at the moment. Council member Miller. Yeah. I I appreciate the discussion and I I I wanna just recognize that I I think this is the humble step of saying, we haven't done this totally right.
We are not going to and I I plan to support this as well because I don't see how we jump to with no funding source or no plan to some broad solution. So I see this as our incremental step towards acknowledging that it's not perfect, making a a fundamental improvement with what we can and getting to the next stage where we can truly evaluate this without making a bigger mistake. So I plan to support this. Council member Palmer. Well, you can look at Annenberg Plaza. I believe they have pavers and and they're not heaving and they're heated.
I I won't support this. I think that, we're throwing bad money after bad money. I think that we need to come back with a plan for a walk in area that is is concrete that is decorative and foolproof. It won't even and we'll be able to provide what people are looking for and what I'm looking for. Council member Doring. Yeah. I, understanding budgetary constraints all the things, I plan to, I I plan to support this as well with the caveat is just that I hope we maximize the impact that we can can as quickly as we can.
Council member Wall. I agree with, council member Palmer. I just don't want to buy a thermostat for this. I think that we gotta we gotta solve it and if we have to wait and if and I agree with council member Keane, we need a funding source, that we just need a new plan, and if we can promise the community a new plan that will offer us a final solution that will be good for the whole community. I think that, they could understand that even if we're a couple of seasons of having to negotiate, what currently is there. Secondly, I I don't disagree that there's 6,000
people down there, every day on average. They're not there because of the pavers. It's the whole experience. Now, if you could say 6,000 people come specifically to read the poem or to roll over the, the the raised lettering because it's like mountain biking or some, I don't know, then I'll go with that. But if we didn't have the pavers there, would we reduce that to fifty nine ninety or it go to 6,200? I don't know. It's they're not coming for the pavers.
So whatever. I'm still gonna vote against it. With that, we have a motion on we have a a motion on the table. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed say nay. Nay. I think I heard, four five to two with, council members Palmer and Wall in opposition. We are going to plow through until we get to the EDA if, that's okay with my colleagues and then we will take a break. Thank you. Mister Spindler Craig, go ahead with, the ordinance first reading. Thank you, council president,
council members, mayor Norton. There are three first readings. Item j one, an ordinance annexing to the City Of Rochester approximately 28.84 acres of land located East Of Sixtieth Avenue Northwest and approximately 500 feet South of King Arthur Road Northwest identified by pin number seventy three thousand eight hundred and thirty three. Moving to item J2, ordinance rezoning approximately 38.88 acres of land located East Of Sixtieth Avenue Northwest and approximately 500 feet South of
King Arthur Road Northwest identified by PIN number seventy five thousand four hundred and fifty six, seventy eight thousand five hundred and fifty one, seventy three thousand eight hundred and thirty four, seventy five thousand four hundred and fifty seven, '70 '8 thousand '5 hundred and '80 '4 from R1 mixed single family residential to R2 low density residential small lot and amending ordinance 04/1978 known as the Unified Development Code of the City Of Rochester, Minnesota. Moving to item J3, an ordinance annexing to the City Of Rochester approximately 1.03
acres of land located 300 feet north of Wilder Road, NE, NE City Of Rochester. Moving to the second readings, there's one item, K1, ordinance rezoning and approximately 2.39 acres of land located South of Highway 14 SE at 4140 Highway 14 SE from MXS, mixed use street oriented, to MXC, mixed use center and amending ordinance number 4,478 known as the city of Rochester, Minnesota. Move approval. Okay. Council member Keane moves approval.
Second. Seconded by council member Miller. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed say nay. Passes. We are gonna take a, eight minute break, and we will return with other business. Okay. We're gonna get started. Everybody, please, either, if you're leaving, thank you for being here. And Recording in progress. We are now on to other business. I I as part of our other business tonight, I'd, invite a motion to recess the council meeting for a meeting of the Rochester Economic Development Authority.
So moved. Moved by, by, council member Wall and seconded by council member Fredericks. All in favor say aye. Aye. The opposed say nay. Motion carries. I'm not all opposed say nay. Now I will call back, to order the meeting of the city council and entertain a motion to adopt the findings of the EDA. So moved. Moved by, council member Miller. Second. Seconded by council member, Wall. All in favor, say aye. Aye. All opposed, say nay. Motion, passes. Is there any other business tonight?
Seeing none, is there a motion for adjournment? I just have twenty minutes. Oh, do you, council member? Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. Moved. By council member Doering. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed say nay. We are adjourned.