--------- probably shall not shall not drive my fiance crazy. He's like, "Girl, you need to like No. First the meeting of Sanford City Commission work session for January 12th, 2026.
Happy new year everyone. >> Happy new year. >> And first order of business is >> William Clark. >> William Clark. >> Yes. Mr. Mr. Mayor, members of the city commission on your agenda for formal action today is an item dealing with the William Clark court and to provide an update is assistant city manager Craig
Bradson. >> Hey, good afternoon mayor, city commissioners. Happy new year to you. This is uh as the city manager indicated this is on your agenda regular meeting tonight alpha 9A for action. It's an amendment to the um contract for purchasing the known as Willing Park
properties from the Sanford Housing Authority. Uh we entered into this agreement in July of 2023. So this fifth amendment is no different from the four others we did previously. It's extending the contract for another 6 months. Um so with that I'll leave it for any
questions. Um I did reach out to the Sanford Authority Housing Authority last week and there's been no updates from HUD on this. Um we're waiting on the disposition guidelines from HUD so we can go to closing. We're hoping we can get this done in six months, but I'm not holding my breath. So, I got it marked
on my calendar for July to extend again if we need to. >> I'm sorry. Can you repeat when we started this? >> July of 2023 is when we signed the contract. >> And I'm I'm not good at math, mayor. How long is that now? >> It's only like two and a half years, right?
>> Federal government. >> Oh, this is the federal government. >> This is this is going to be >> five is a charm. >> Not locals, not us. The last time we extended this, which would have been what, >> six months ago, >> six months ago, >> I asked if we could reach out to our
friends at the federal government, our representatives, our lobbyists even, about seeing what can be done about this and what we can shake to get this done or or if it's never going to get done, just
tell us so we can move on. That's that's that's again you can find out but that's not on us locally. That's the government. >> I didn't say it's on us car. I'm asking are we are we using all channels? >> I understand. Hold on. >> To get this done two and a half. >> You ain't got to do Hold on. You ain't
got to do all the yelling. Calm down. We talking. I'm talking with social. You do the same. Now that's how we going to do this. Now again I heard what you said in a respectable tone. You do the same thing with me. I show respect to y'all. Y'all going to do the same for me. >> I didn't. >> No. No. You raised your voice.
>> You started trying to you raise your voice. >> The question is, have we >> we Mr. Lassard may have reached out to uh Cory Mill before Cory Mill got his food. >> We've reached out and we keep trying to reach out to people. So, if you can get
somebody, it's not the lack of staff nor even myself personally trying to reach out to find people because this needs to be done. But at the end of the day, it's nothing that local has been able to do. So, Mr. born apart. We not going to put this on you like it's just on you.
>> But if we can get somebody, we're still we say that >> if we can get somebody and it's so big. Let's make sure we can get that done. >> One of the challenges also was when the federal government was shut down that also delayed this. >> Okay. >> What my read of it is all of the
documentation they have requested has been now done. >> Yeah. >> Yes. It was not previously. They kept asking for >> Yeah. They for example they asked for additional letters of support which we provided timely. We had probably a dozen letters of support for that. There was a
what's called a fonzi study which was done impact done which is a funding >> everything's done. You also have to they have to be current. >> So we have to redo them. >> I don't think so. I think we're just waiting for HUD disposition is what we're waiting for. There was a five-year
plan that needed to be updated. That was done and that was on the Sanford Housing Authority. That was done about a year ago. So, now we're just waiting for HUD. And I know Mr. Fleming, he wants it to happen, too. And he reaches out periodically to HUD to see um what the status is. And we talk regularly. We we
both both parties want to get this done. I think it's just a matter of the federal government HUD trying to get it disposed of or disposition guidance. >> Does HUD want to get it done? Apparently not.
>> Yeah. Unless there's higher priority items for them. I don't know. I'm not I don't contact HUD. Mr. Fleming does that for us and I don't think you get much back from them either. But we have reached out to um as Commissioner Wigan said, Brady's been helpful in reaching out to some
congressmen and representatives and stuff try to get this expedited, but it hasn't worked thus far. to sit. >> All right. My next question is going to hurt some feelings, but I don't really care anymore. Do we even have the funding mechanism
for doing anything if we got this? I don't believe we do. Do we have funds set aside for this >> for developing this property for our intended purpose? We do we do have the funds set aside to
purchase and we are working on the funds to set aside for the development with wreck impact. >> Very good. All right. All right. Thank you. Okay. >> Thank you.
Okay, >> next city manager goals mayor. Although that is next on the agenda, I would like to take an opportunity. We do have a new communications intern. I'd like Miss Lisa Holder to introduce him since he's now joining us. >> Good afternoon, Mayor Commissioner, city
manager, city attorney. I'd like to introduce Rolando Bailey. He is a He is a paid intern budgeted for through the city manager's office and he is from Emery Riddle University. It's a college internship program and I'd like to
introduce Ronaldo Bailey to say a few words. One thing I find amazing is that he lives in Dan and he takes the Sunreil to Sanford every day to go to the internship. So go Sunreil. Hi, my name is Ronaldo Bailey. I go to
Emirita University. I am a senior. I graduated in the fall of 2026. I met Mr. Nico in September or October for this internship. I applied here because I found a great cause to help the people of Sanford and learn more about city
hall. My major is communication. My goal is to be a sports broadcaster, but uh I do take the sun real, but most importantly, my goal is to help my parents retire for all the hard work they did. So, I'm just here taking it one day at a time.
>> I'm I'm also the president of my club at school. I'm a student ambassador for the College of Business at Bruno University. And yeah, that's it. is here to learn. Learn for everybody and see what it takes to run city hall and see what it's like to work in a government. So,
>> and he brings a certain youth perspective. >> Welcome, young man. >> You need more of that. >> Welcome, young man. >> Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. >> Since my nephew graduated from MB Riddle, you get bonus points for that. >> Oh, thank you. >> Welcome. >> Thank you. >> He will be here through the semester and
we'll reinstitute that every semester until it's not in the budget anymore. >> Is he want? >> No. Okay. We I mentioned >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Process first. >> All right. >> Right. Mr. Mayor, the next item in the
agenda is to say about the 2026 goals and evaluation for the city manager. At the last meeting, the commission did the evaluation and there was comments about maybe looking at revising the form. So, this was just an opportunity for the commission to discuss if they'd like to revise the
form as well as to look at establishing the goals for the city manager that the city commission has for 2026. Okay. Let's um talk about the evaluation process first and then I have uh not too confusing handout to start the
conversation on goals. So, um, any comments about the form or about the process? I know Commissioner Thomas, I thought you had some ideas. I don't know if you have fleshed those out yet. Uh the path I started down was to take a
slightly different view of the form itself and to simplify it. But I'm leaning now more toward, and this is kind of a big idea, but uh the more I think about ratings, the more
I think numeric ratings just don't do the job because too many people, not necessarily anybody on this board, but people do take shortcuts when that's just put in some numbers and be done. So it would be, you know,
maybe extraordinary to think about something else, just having some conversations, putting in your opinions, some well thoughtout discussions, comments, uh, versus a numeric rating. Yes, it would impact how we determine
the amount of the merit increase, but for a a board this size, I think it's it's just not out of the question that we would consider something like that. Are there examples of that kind of document? >> That's not as far as I've gotten. Okay, that would take a little more research.
Right now, it's just at the let me pose the idea and if people throw things at me, we won't talk about it anymore. But, uh, if it's not out of the question, then maybe we can do some more research and compare. >> I understand your ideology behind it. Um, I'm not sure it's practical
as far as um as far as the execution of what our duties are as far as evaluating and and scoring >> and implementing it with this quickly. >> You know, one of the huge problems I
have with this city and with all governments is, well, that's just the way we've always done it. >> Well, I know. And so >> and so I I have fought that previous to you even with this evaluation system for the employees. Uh there was a time when
we were told that we had employee evaluations that were a year overdue. Um but yet we were trying to determine raises these employees were getting. >> Um so I' I've been fighting this system
overall. Uh, I I think I think what we have to do for the city manager is has to model or be about the same as as all the other employees, but I could be wrong. Um, yeah, I appreciate what you're saying there, but I do think that
for the city manager appointed by the board, it can be and maybe should be a little different than the employee evaluations because it's and again, the research that I've done so far says that it should be treated a
little not exactly the same. >> Yeah. Well, >> but it still has to come down to putting enough structure into it that we do a thorough job with the evaluation. >> Quite well, quite honestly, there's only three employees that that this board
>> Mhm. >> Um has powers over, >> right? >> Um and so we never evaluate the city attorney. >> Uh we have given up. >> Huh? >> Why is that? >> I don't know. This is part of my
discussion. We don't do we don't do an evaluation of the city attorney. >> We turned over the evaluation of the city clerk to the person who works day-to-day with with that person and and we turn that over to the city manager. Um and then and then we have the city
manager. >> Uh so we we don't uh we don't treat our three employees per se like uh like the rest of the city employees are treated. Um,
I don't think that's wrong necessarily. Um, but I'm just just putting that out there for the discussion >> and and that's where we're at. So, if you can come up with a a discussion evaluation
that still has an enumeration on it uh for scoring purposes. Uh and and we got, you know, we got professor over here. >> Yeah, we do have that. >> We're fortunate enough to have some kind
of hybrid thing >> perhaps. >> I can't see it being completely non >> non-score >> check the box kind of things. No. >> And then for the but for written stuff, we need much better prompts. And
>> yeah, I don't disagree with that. >> And quite frankly, we need we need five people up here that are uh that fulfill their duties and do their jobs uh as as assigned by the by the citizens uh for it to be effective. Um so uh you know
that that's another another part of it. >> Well, perhaps we do something ch make a change like that for next year and that would give us more time to research. And this is not to put it off like we're not going to do it. I mean, I want I want to make a change here.
>> Well, that that's only in the that's only for the evaluation process and we do have time for that. >> Mhm. >> Well, the the goals and objectives we need to figure out. >> Right. >> Right. But the evaluation process that you know in fairness, >> you know, if we're changing the
evaluation >> process, we need to make that change early enough. No >> in the year. >> I don't disagree. We have more time to work on that than we do the goals and objectives. >> I do not want to turn over the goals and objectives >> in April
>> to any city manager >> halfway through the year like we did last year. >> That that was completely unfair and put us in a bad position. >> If you all would like, I could reach out to some other city clerks and ask for
evaluations from some of our local or our district. Well, we >> what they look like, >> you know, two and a half years ago, whenever it was when we redid this form, we collected them from as many cities as we could. >> Did, >> you know, as I went through them, they
all seemed to be derived from the one Mr. Bonapart sent from the city manager association. >> Yeah. >> Um, I was amazed at how similar so many of them were. >> Imagine that. >> I do think we have too many items. >> Yes.
it gets tedious and trying to figure out you know >> what do you do for different things. So >> what uh but back to what Patrice said but yes um it would be interesting to see because I'm not sure we got them from all of the seminal county cities
>> but I only want them from the cities that have a strong city manager government. >> Right. There's no sense in colon. >> Well, >> I mean, not >> and I would be pleasantly surprised if any of our peers had evaluations that
went far beyond or were very different from >> what the league provided. >> I mean, obviously, I think the one we came up with is better than all the other ones. Otherwise, >> let's change it.
>> Okay. So, But it as we as we move along in this process, I'm sorry. I would like to make sure our attorney uh advises us if we are if we are
treading on any kind of dangerous territory as far as as far as uh his his contract. >> Oh, absolutely. and what our duties are. >> As as we start to to get examples and we start to all of you have that discussion as to what your preferences are,
>> I'll give you some legal analysis, especially based upon what you've adopted in your charter as to whether it is befitting of what you've already adopted. >> Anything else? >> No. >> So Claudia, we're going to sort of
delegate you as the investigator. I will be your research analyst. >> Okay. >> All right. And then >> I think we're going to ask for an increase in pay. >> No. If you don't know by now, I'm not doing this for the money, then you
haven't been anywhere. >> Um and then so to the question of the city attorney evaluation, what does our contract with the city >> does not provide for an evaluation? Um, I can tell you from from my research and
I think the 45 years that you had a previous city attorney, you never did an evaluation. >> Um, generally speaking, I don't know of any city that does because I am of course reporting to the board an employee technically, but not and so
it doesn't provide for one. Well, I don't want to go too far down this this hole, but are is our contract with you per se, or is it with your firm? >> Both. >> Okay.
I've always >> So, your firm does an evaluation on you for 23 years generally. >> We'll just share that with >> Does that stop when you're a name partner? It It gets worse. >> No, it doesn't.
Yeah. >> Um I So I'm not a contract expert. Some up here are better at it than I am. I would imagine that our contract with the attorney has different language in it than our
contract with the city manager as far as evaluation and eliminating. I don't know what you say. eliminating services. Um I I believe the contract language is different for those two. >> It is
>> um and and unfortunately from my experience from what I've seen from other cities is uh it it gets to be rather ugly um when either of those contracts are questioned
or or tried to be eliminated. >> Yeah. Um, so a process of evaluating isn't a horrible idea. uh perhaps perhaps a a sixmonth or a one-year
conversation with the city attorney uh with with some um opinions from staff uh and the city manager on on where maybe we are are are struggling or
or perceived uh or or maybe where where improvements could be made perceived >> and kind of where all eval valuations should end up which is are we on the same page? Do we understand each other? Are our expectations of you fair or vice
versa just to make sure that we have the best relationships with you? >> Oh, absolutely. And quite frankly, I invite that to be a regular conversation that I can schedule meetings with each of you quarterly for you to opine as to
where you believe we are, where areas that you believe are stellar, and where areas that we can serve you better. >> I like that idea >> and I'll I'll begin scheduling those quarterly conversations. If I can speak openly about our previous
conversations, >> can I? >> I don't know which one they are. Attorney client privilege. You're a client. >> Um I I don't think it's anything bad. Um just for the record, uh Attorney Green and I have had previous discussions
about where she is in the process of evaluating some of our systems and some of our ways of business. and how she thinks we could do some of these things better. Um, and then, uh,
we will reach a point where perhaps she brings in other, uh, members of her firm to handle some, uh, some items. >> Absolutely. Uh >> with her with her guidance,
>> right? That's an accurate conversation that the first 6 months was really um and probably for another few months will be assessing where you are as an entity uh where uh improvements need to be made
with regard to procedures, training, things of that nature, and then filling in the gaps and figuring out what additional staff I need to bring on to fill in those areas. And that's what I've been doing. So there's been a lot of discussion and working on even
purchasing policies and procedures um again training with staff and then from there setting up certain contact persons into certain areas and figuring out how we can get um just direct contact depending on what the need is. So it's
really been this first few months figuring out where your where your need is and >> then then I think at that point we will start to see some streamlining uh of of some of some of our boards, some of our procedures and and some of
some of the stuff staff is working on and and from that aspect of the city, I believe we are going to be more efficient. >> I agree. >> Than we have been in the past. >> I agree. >> Um but I wanted that and I'm sorry to take up the city manager time. I wanted
that to be on the record and and known that that we are in that process and where we're headed as far as the city attorney goes. >> That sounds good. >> I like that. >> All right. Anything else on evaluation?
Uh, and speaking of would we Oh, by the way, I did I might go back to a very simplified version of the evaluation that we have had to look at um because it's it's the same kind of process with
ratings for each item, but it's a very high level u fewer number of items and then the same kind of listing of goals. So, I'll be happy to share that. You're going to take one of those and pass them on.
>> Yeah. I was just finishing my >> finishing my thought. So >> I am. >> Okay. Well, I do you want the I only think at least seven. >> There are eight different sample forms
that I collected. Do >> you want to see the ones that we looked at last time? >> Okay. I'll send you that folder. All right. So, basically, this is the left column, and we're looking at the star that the page start with the page that has the star at the top because I
didn't title anything. Um, and the left column are the items that were in um the evaluation. um either original goals or um
or things that were commented on. And one of the things I noticed about our list last year, some of them were either vague or very open-ended. It was not clear what necessarily we wanted
to have happen. So on some of the things, I tried to to tighten things up. Um then I looked at them as like some of the things weren't really necessarily just city manager goals. So I made a couple of columns city manager commission city comm city city manager.
Um I pulled out the or identified ones that were major infrastructure projects and then things that are just ongoing which I'm not sure something you expect to be happening every year is a goal for the year because if that was the case we'd have like a hundred >> good
>> or more. So that's the second column is sort of my phrasing of what a goal might be. Some of them I didn't come up with something to put there. That doesn't mean I don't think it's important. It
just means I didn't um come up with wording to put there. So I don't know if you want to start on the left column or the second column. Can we start with the left just to make sure that we know what's goes out and stays in?
>> Okay. >> So like the timelines for updates to facilities, you know, that should really be an ongoing thing. >> That shouldn't be >> to me that's not a goal for the year. That's something that should just be happening.
>> I think the issue is has been timelines itself. And one of the things and I keep batting this around with myself, the airport authority and you know their business is much different and their list of
projects is much smaller. Um but at each meeting you know they have the PowerPoint slide that here are the six or eight ongoing projects and here's the status. And at each meeting the engineer gets up and says okay this one's going out to bid this one we've got this
delay. This one um is started. This one's 90% complete. >> Well, I'm hoping we get that from our new dashboard. >> Um, and so does that go on the dashboard or is that something we have as a report or both? Dashboard. >> Dashboard.
>> Okay. Oh, sorry. So, on the first line timelines for updates to facilities, is there an annual goal in there? >> I don't think so. Yeah, I think I'd agree that that's ongoing >> and we address any issues with whether or not we have the appropriate
information on deadlines with specific projects that are our goals. Okay. And >> so so a caveat to that I would like maybe us to consider is um
long long-term projects that may need funding sources or funding. Could that be an ongoing goal like you know what we've recently gone through?
It it was important for us to to be kept apprised of where we were at with getting you know the water treatment plant >> uh redone um and even some of the uh pipe upgrade uh you know um grants that we've got
from the state. um you know a lot of that stuff is is under her his purview uh and some of his direct staff. >> So is would the goal be an expectation
that if something is defined as a long-term goal we get a report on it? >> Yeah. >> Within so many days of >> But doesn't that go back to the dashboard? Do we do is the dashboard >> that's where the dashboard is headed
>> funding or or or timeline project timeline. >> Our expectation I think is that anything that has anything that's a long-term goal or a major project is on that dashboard and updated regularly >> with the timeline estimated completion
dates all that. >> I believe that there should be some some projects that are coming up in the future that aren't on the dashboard yet that perhaps he is meeting with staff or
discussing with staff or laying groundwork with staff uh where where the funding may come from. Are we taking it from the penny sales tax in three years? Is that making sense? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I still think it's a little
tied to the dashboard. So I don't but we don't >> I mean basically we're looking for a structure of reporting >> for both long-term projects in the planning stages and projects underway. I
think projects that are that have have been started or on the ground go on the dashboard and that's when this when the public and and and us should start seeing some timelines, some goals and those aren't
necessarily in the city manager's control. But leading up to the the groundbreaking of a project uh can be something he
prods along, makes the contacts um tells Claudia to to get a report done >> or potential new projects that he's working with, say Brady Lassard on, you know, that guy back there. >> Yeah. If he when he wakes up. Yeah. >> When he wakes up. Yeah.
Um that's where my mind is. But maybe a report of basically future projects, >> right? >> They aren't to the point where >> right >> development opportunities, >> right?
>> This is this is what we were working on. This is what we're discussing >> coming down the road. >> What's an example? >> The ball fields. >> The ball fields. Uh, how about um I don't know what neighborhood hasn't been repaved in a long time, but let's just
say let's just say Grove View hasn't been repaved in 20 years. That should be something that's it's earmarked for for uh for uh county. Oh my gosh. What is the tax we use for
the um third gen >> third gen >> sales tax? This is third gen sales tax projects we're looking at for 2028. But stuff like that should be in the public works schedule already. I don't
see that as a as a new project for planning. The ball fields. Yes. >> Well, are you're thinking more just early idea based. This is something we think we can do with that >> coming money. this is what we're looking
at and if it is put in there as a goal >> that means we're going to evaluate the city manager based on that. >> So do we evaluate him by saying what you have no ideas this year? I mean that might be a little vague. Um so how do we
list it as a goal and make it something that we can evaluate the city manager based on? I I don't know how we >> but five years ago Mayfair would have been on the list. The um the fire station would have been on the list. >> The water plant would be on the list.
But now all three of those are in the dashboard. >> Am I understanding you? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So we want a reporting struct a reporting form report structure for long-term planning of projects.
>> My blood sugar is low. I'm trying to get it going. Thank you. All right. Um, we've had and we've we're spending money tonight on the the sewage plant. You know, I don't have a grasp of everything
that's been done and everything that needs to be done, right? I think that's a clear, you know, let's let's all get understand what the what's going on with it. >> I mean, to the point of I I keep imagining just walking through that plant and looking at every single part
and saying this is how long we think this is going to last, >> the entire guts of the plant. >> I believe that process or that assessment has been started. But, you know, last last time we wanted him just to manage, you know, fixing the plant.
Now, I think let's make it more specific. But we we need to know because we've spent a ton of money on that thing. >> Yeah. And there's a whole lot. There's a 100 line. >> What is being done? What needs to be done? >> A master plan. >> We need a master plan and we need to
>> But I also want a review of what we've done. >> Anticipate. Well, all right. Yeah, maybe that may maybe that's where the ball's been dropped in the past. Maybe there isn't a master plan for some of this stuff and maybe those are goals
that maybe we should have. >> We need to do as good a job as we can on anticipating where the issues are going to come. not, you know, not a magic eightball, but a real assessment of >> I know uh I know Brent is still
still just starting to scratch the surface of of of what all he um took uh upon his shoulders and and where and what needs to be
um addressed immediately coming down the road uh in the future. Um and and that is maybe something that we we would like to see a better grasp of maybe by the end of
next year of this year. >> Okay. So what other are there other I say parts of the city but that's right really the right phrase where we need master plans. I would love to see a
master plan for the fire department to be a FSO1. >> That's a good >> Is that what it's called? >> ISO. >> ISO. >> ISO1. >> Uh the county is and their residents uh save money on their homeowners insurance
because of that. And we are not. And uh I I think that needs to be a long-term goal for the city. >> Yeah. Really, we should have a master plan for everything. >> We should. Yeah. >> Okay. over. Which ones do we need this year? >> Utilities. >> Utilities. >> Fire.
>> Fire. >> Public safety building is fairly new. There shouldn't be any issues there. >> You have a weigh in on where we need a master plan. >> We can get with staff and see. What we are also looking at doing is having each of the directors make a presentation to
the commission on where we are. We have done that in the past and it's on the list for 2026. So you can hear from them what plans they have and what project they're working on. >> Mayor, uh I don't want to I don't want to overburden
an already um in some cases overburden staff um and give them a whole new project to work on. Uh but I would like a rough master plan if one doesn't exist. Is
that fair for each for each of for each director? >> Because they could come back and say, "Well, we have one. Here it is." That has to just remind us. >> Jerry Sullivan might very well have a master plan. We just don't know it. I
>> I think that's fair. >> Have I not been speaking English? Because this is the thing that frustrates me. And then you get little slick ass comments from other commissioners that saying that other commissioners don't do the do their job. But I've said this before. I'm just
wondering if I'm speaking another language because I talked about this before with the North Sewage plant. I talked about this with the the pump station and said that we needed these things. Now Patrick says it, Claudia says it, Art says it, and now it's something, oh yeah, let's make sure that
we put this on the on the city manager. I mean, like, I'm so frustrated with this commission. I think uh I think there's a something else coming down the line, but I don't know when or where or how.
But I kind of I I kind of think um we're going to have a change of of command at the police department at some point. Um, I I don't know that a master plan necessarily applies to a police
department, but um perhaps there needs to be a a consideration of of uh where we're headed there. >> We call that secession planning. um and
and what changes or or um overview of of policies and procedures might need to be done there. Um I don't know I don't know if a master plan apply applies to police department or the fire department honestly. Um but
uh their facilities, their equipment, their vehicles um certainly fall into a master plan. Probably >> that's part of the capital plan. >> Yeah. >> Um I think though that I think what the
difference with the fire department is, you know, we would like to know what does it take to get to ISO1? >> Yes. >> What what is that path? >> I don't think there's a statement we would make like that with the police department. Um they've got
I would all the accreditation they got the excelsure accreditation. I don't know what and but I do agree with you in the way um the city manager phrased it was the succession planning.
>> Yes. U >> and I think that's an ongoing thing in all department also. The only the only thing I'll say is um is perhaps uh there's a categories uh of
crimes that occur that perhaps um from time to time we need to review uh how we how we can uh lower lower that crime rate in that category.
Uh do we have a plan for that? Um we we have we have uh some crimes in this city that are higher than others. Um and what's the plan for that? Uh >> okay.
I did see uh where we are uh are making an attempt to get more traffic uh officers on the street and and that's awesome to see. That's that is definitely an area where we need to improve. Um
speed and and traffic safety issues uh have long been a problem in many areas of the city. So personnel um will never hurt that problem. >> Okay, moving on down the marina. We
already have a master plan. Our issue there is FEMA. I think this year it's time to um start looking at some other funding and move that along rather than waiting on FEMA um you know federal
appropriations even state appro we talked to with our um legislative delegation um they weren't real thrilled with Marina and I don't know why I think that's maybe one we need to work on with them
um >> they weren't ruled with what? >> Well, in terms of here are different things and that one they said they didn't in >> Yeah, he didn't. Yeah, I I pitched that to Broder and he was very cool on that
one. He was much more he felt like the civic center um air conditioners for the civic center was a much easier or much more likely um thing. Right. But so I think you know the marina is is big enough that we need to maybe
>> Well, we should have asked for an underwater vehicle like another city got. That's what we should have done. >> Vehicle. >> I think somebody on the other side of the league. >> Interesting. >> I was thinking you were >> but I I just All right. But that's
something I mean we can't show up in their office and say, "Hey, we'd like a million dollars. We need to to pitch that and plan that ahead. Well, >> but let I'm sorry, Claudia. Go ahead. Let's be honest. Uh >> getting help from the state has been
>> has been difficult on those kind of projects. I know that we had tried uh a parking garage >> uh deal a couple years ago. I think we tried two years in a row and one year I think we made the list and the governor
cut us, right? Am I remember correctly? Yeah. >> So, it uh it it's been difficult to get help from uh from Tallahassee on projects like this. Um so, I do think it's time to to start.
>> So, I would say that that should be a goal to to find to look for some funding besides us and FEMA for that project. Um >> how are we with the grant writing process in general? Do the people who have to do that internally get
sufficient training to do the best job they can writing grants? >> At this point, the city does not have a grant writer. Different departments have individuals that write grants. >> That's what I've heard. So, same question. Do they get training? Are we writing grants in the best way
possible to get the money or can we do better? >> Could that be a goal? I can tell we used to have a grant writer and it was a waste of money. >> Yeah. And I'm not necessarily saying we need a writer. Just want to make sure the people who have to write them are
trained and doing a good job. >> I haven't been doing all that well lately. >> Um >> just throwing it out there. >> That's I mean that I think that's a a good point. you know, the people that we ask, um, you know, and I think, you know, we
have been fairly successful. >> Um, I don't know if there's training they need or if they're fine without training, but I would, you know, certainly if they needed training, >> um, I would think we would be willing to >> certainly there are police know that
have gotten the grants, but >> Chris me good at it right there. Well, that's what I'm worried about if Chris is writing them all. >> Oh, wow. >> Just kidding, Chris. >> She only says that because she saw your pudding ability.
>> I mean, if if there is maybe the league provides some training that's not that's free or available that everybody can just be maybe some refresher. You never know when you're going to find something that makes your grant just that much better than somebody else is asking for
the same from the same bucket. Is that that something our lobbyists can help with? >> Maybe >> grant writing. Yeah, I don't know. >> We use them more for interactions with state agencies or state representatives.
>> Usually prohibition, >> is it? Okay. >> Well, yeah, but uh they might I mean just make some connection with the league and say, "Hey, >> finding helping us find one. Okay. Um, for the opportunity site, I would like I
would like to get the gravel lot under contract this year. Get at least that that first piece done. And I know we talked about we wanted to um Brad in here. >> No. >> Um, I know we've talked about, you know,
what does the market want to do? Um, I really believe it's our land. we should make sure it's what we want. Um, so you know, we did the survey, we've got ideas, um, turn Brady loose on
doing some recruitment, redo the proposal. I don't think we need to do all of the property at one time, but I would like to see the gravel lot under contract. Comments on that one. There no contract for what? For
development right here. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We actually have a pretty good plan from the Heritage Park proposal. You know, everybody liked what that
looked like. Think some tweaking. I really would like it to be um fe simple rather than all rental, but Now is not the time to hash out what that's going to be, but just think that is that something we think should get done this year.
>> Well, uh it's my understanding uh the hotel is is finally moving forward across the street. >> Yeah, that one over there. Yeah. >> Um so that means all of those town homes are sold.
>> I don't know. I don't think that was the condition of that. >> I thought it was um >> Oh, I don't disagree with keeping the grassy area open and putting that off. >> I I have grave concerns uh for downtown
and where we're headed. Um, and and I don't know what new construction um I don't know what new construction we're going to we're going to um entice.
Um, nations project has never been completed. The new Dan Matthews project seems uh to be on life support. Um, I just uh There's still a lot of vacant
uh spaces. Um I don't know I don't know if we're as attractive as we were when Heritage Park first came um down the pike. >> Oh, I think we are.
>> Um we have we have some internal uh processes that uh we're still evaluating and I think need um
changing um this is going to lead us down a rabbit hole I don't think you intended. So um I'm just going to stop. Um and I'll I'll wait and discuss this later. Um overall in this city we are struggling
to get projects done and that's uh that's not even on our own property. Uh are we going to be able to get a a project done on our own property? I don't know.
Um so I I don't I I don't know if that that's a fair goal to put Um, if you want to uh if you want to say a a working plan
and uh and partner by the end of the year that might that might seem to be an achievable goal. Okay. >> So have the development plan Okay.
Um, adding the water plant that's happening. So, I don't see that that stays as a goal. >> Do we still need to make sure that that moves along? >> Well, yeah, but that then that ends up as a major infrastructure project, which
that's the case for all major infrastructure projects. They should be moving along. >> Okay. I don't like saying that a project is handled until we actually break ground. >> Does that make sense? >> Yes. But in terms of this is the goal
for I mean that's to me that's just his job. >> That the projects that we have going are being managed. >> Okay. >> Um last year it was we've got to make sure we get the money. We've got a timeline we need on top of this. we need
to get if we need get to that point where we could we're ready to go. >> I think we're to that point. >> Okay. Well, uh I'm just going to go ahead and put it out there. For us to get the to increase our ISO rating,
we're going to have to add fire stations. >> So, is is uh is scouting a new location for a new fire station this year? Well, I think that that would fall under the fire ISO master plan.
>> Okay. All right. >> I would like by the end of the year to know if we have an idea of where we're going to build a new fire station. >> Okay. Um, commissioner, is that simply for the ISO
or just the just for progress in general? >> But if we can increase the ISO to one without a new fire station. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I could be wrong. It could be there's there's a there's a
couple of experts in the room above me, but >> I don't believe we can get the ISO increase our ISO without a new fire station. >> Do we have the funds to add a new fire station? >> Well, that's where the plan >> comes in.
>> Yeah. >> Okay. Last year we had managed discussions with Seminal County. um I rewrote that as you know get a plan developed and I think that the discussions have been moving along and
so that's why I feel like the next step is let's put the plan in place >> you feel like we're close enough >> we've had a number of discussions with the county particularly the county manager and um we have this there's they have a meeting in April I think it is
with the county commission So, >> okay. So, you think it's reasonable that we could actually know what >> cuz they have to make a decision, >> right? It's really up to them. But Okay. Do we um do we need to make sure we h we um have
the proper zoning and uh and future land use that covers these buildings. >> Yeah, I talked to Brady. Actually, Brady talked to me about that. Um that that's one of the things that they've got under consideration. >> Okay.
>> That you know, we control the zoning. >> Yeah. And we need to make sure it's the zoning right now. Like the county services building is zoned for county for government services. So,
okay. Um I moved the follow up on survey comments to just ongoing. Um the same with the citizen survey comments. >> Are you okay with that? >> Yep. Um but
um we had the public dashboard. We need to to get that implemented and um and where the public and us are are using it. I think that still needs to stay as a goal.
>> We do plan to have at the next commission meeting the first quarter report for the dashboard. >> You okay with that? no later than keep in mind our original goal was October last year.
It's going to be great, but I need it to happen. Um the business advisory committee focus group thing we've talked back and forth on. Um, you know, I
took that and put it more into terms of things we were hoping to get out of that, which would be reduce the time to get purchase orders done, to get hiring done, to get permits done. That's where we're looking for for outside people to to help us, I think.
>> Yeah. Are we to the point or will we be to the point of being able to get some feedback that says things have improved based on the changes we've made? Mayor and I've started meeting with the semino county um business advisory board
out of the public private association of semino county and we had our first I had the first meeting with them last week and we're going to have ongoing meetings. representatives from the different businesses and I think that's going to be very fruitful with us in getting their input. In terms of a
process, we still have the ratilla study that we're going to get the results from, but in terms of having outside businesses working with us to make our processes even better. This is already in progress. >> That's PBA. >> It's a subgroup of PBAS. >> Okay.
So I think that and specifically the refella study when we will see the final report from that that should be part of the goal that it's due by such and such a date >> and then we will be taking some actions based on
>> but I I continue to hear from staff um and whether regardless of where the the holdup is that sometimes is time to a purchase order and time to an actual being able to hire is longer than they would like. >> And we've had conversations.
>> I know that can be on both sides of the form, but uh the goal would be just to reduce the amount of time, >> right? >> And the goal is to have some real hard data so we can get past this perception is reality that we still have a problem.
Back to your point you were raising earlier, until we address this, what's the point of doing anything on our own property? Okay. I would like to keep the um customer service training. Um I don't know how we how you want to
phrase that as a goal so that we know what did or did not happen. Um, >> I mean, we can't wait to not hear from people complaining. >> Well, how about uh how about that's included in the city manager's monthly report? What uh
>> who's been trained? What percentage of the population has been trained? What training is ongoing? Um, what training is coming up? >> Um, comprehensive review of all manual processes I thought was large and vague and didn't know how to phrase that for
what we really want to have happen. One thing I did think about was I would like for somebody because I run into them all the not all the time but on a regular basis um to look at every place you can touch um our website
and does it say what it's supposed to say and does it get you to where you want to go? >> Yeah. Can I put this one in there? >> But um I have to uh I always have to make sure
I choose my words correctly, but but we have added staff in different areas of the city the last couple years where we were told they were needed. I think it's time to start seeing better results of that.
i.e. purchasing, finance, IT. I think it's time for us to start seeing if we're still seeing there's problems with the website. Not sure. Are we are we assigning the proper
personnel there? Do we have the proper check offs and it >> are we adding people because our systems are 1950? Um, I'm not sure we have anybody whose job it is to go through the website and look for things.
>> That's basically department by department. >> I've I've heard that we don't have a web master, for lack of a better term. I think that's what they're called, but I don't know. >> Uh, I've heard that we don't. And I've
heard uh a lot of this. So may maybe >> Nico was picking up a lot of it, >> right? >> Well, even when it comes to >> ever got to that point where he was, he owned the website.
>> Um, so maybe that is maybe that's some maybe that's a sub goal that needs to be I don't know if we need a master plan of of the website, but maybe a sub goal is website improvements and personnel responsible for such
>> forms processing. Do we have forms that could be automated that aren't that seem to be automated but they're still cumbersome that we have things out there that are not even designed for what everybody looks at them on >> and maybe director Keegan's going to
come back and say I need another person and and maybe that's true. I don't know. >> Well yeah he does everyone will raise hell because it's not fixing a sewage problem. >> Fun fact about something that worked the way it's supposed to.
>> Okay. I um had to add some uh water to my swimming pool, >> right? >> And I'm thinking, "Oh, I got to pay attention to how much I'm putting in there." That evening, I got an email that said, "Hey, >> it is working." >> You used a lot more water today than you
usually do. You might want to check. >> Yep. >> So, >> that was a good confirmation of the meter is working. the new meter and the new um portal does what it's supposed to do. I went in there, I said I want an alert
when this happens and I got it. >> Really? >> Okay. So, even if we broke that down to something like a review of all uh application processes or any processes that require a form
and yeah, I would like to think that's already being done and we're doing the best we can given our budget and staff. >> Okay, I think we still need to zero in on what that is really going to
>> more specific >> be and it may just be a matter of coming up with a list of here the ones we know need to be taken care of >> maybe I'll put myself in the position of an applicant for every single uh form we have to fill out go through it
>> and and I found that's how I find a lot have found things is like you know >> um I was looking for something >> um a building permit thing and it said the form's here but the form wasn't there. So it's just when they made one change
the other change didn't get made and so somebody just needs to go through and and see those things and I you know and um actually Nico helped with it. Um and the the page there on citizen serve now is
much better in terms of here is where you go to get things >> could be a job for our new intern might be an idea. >> Um sewage overflows in Mayfair and Pamosa. I'm not sure what assessment or remedial
action has already been taken or if those are still issues um before we put that as a goal. I think I need to know more about I don't know if anyone we haven't had real solid rain for a while. So I don't
know if things I know they were doing some work in Mayfair with some pipelining and some things. Um, so I don't know if that still needs to be a goal because I don't know the status
and the same would be true with um Lily Court. You know, I I'm not sure there's more that we can do. I know there was discussion about buying um a property making at a pond and I'm not sure where that is either.
So, um, how do y'all want to handle those two? >> So, they're still unresolved. >> Then we won't know until >> well, rainy season. >> I I mean, I'm sure we can get we can get
a report on or more clearly what's what's the status of Mayfair and Pamosa Drive. >> We definitely need to find out something with Lily Court. And then Lily Court, the real question is, is there a resolution to 16 in of rain? >> Well, >> and I'm not sure, but I know there was a
discussion about purchasing that property. So, before I put those as goals, I would like to know, well, we can use status. >> Yeah, >> I think >> well, the same property I'm thinking of, it's now listed for sale, right? Public.
So, >> we must have notided. And I know I I had some conversations with staff about it >> where >> when you said property >> on Lily Court. >> Yeah. >> The one there um at Lily and 20th. The
one that flooded really bad. >> All of them flooded really bad. >> So let's just not put that on the one. All of them flooded really bad. >> But only two of them are on that corner. Really? >> All right. Anything else on that front page? of the goals that we've mentioned just
to make just I just want to ensure I don't forget this. Is it possible Mr. Bonapart for once we finish with all of these you you take a couple weeks or whatnot and then to give us a realistic timeline of okay commissioners this is
what you said these goals are and then this is how I'm going to approach it. It will take me until March to do A, B, and C. then it'll take me this long or and then just give us like the the little plan because to me we're just repeating
the same things over and over again. I mean, how how long have we been talking about the marina, the opportunity site, the water plant, lily courty for god knows how long. If you give us something realistic, not what we want to hear, but what Mr. Bonapart and his departments
can actually the the the timeline you can actually reach. So now I know that you've heard what we said and then I can measure it when it's time to do your evaluation next time because you've explained to me it's going to take me till this amount of time to do it then
cuz I what I don't want to do is keep talking about the same thing every year. We talked about all of this at the goals retreat that we had this summer. So, I'm hoping, sir, if if of what we're we're mentioning now and what we will continue or continue to talk about if
that's something that you could do. >> And it's a good idea. >> Yeah. What we have had in the past is that the mayor will provide me with a summary of this meeting with the specific that you talked about and then I can respond to that. >> That's not what I asked though, sir. But
I I asked if you could give me a timeline of how you your plan of attack for this. This is what you've heard from the comm commission. We've done the evaluation. Okay. This is how I'm strategically going to address these issues and this
is how long it's going to take me. Even if it doesn't take even if it goes past your next evaluation time, at least I can say I know that the city manager is working on these items. And if something hasn't been addressed according to the
document that he gave me, that focus won't happen until he's met with development services in March and they're going to have a retreat and they're going to talk about all of this. That's what I'm asking for. >> I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Once I get
the document from the commission which is through the mayor then I can provide you with that. Okay. >> And then if if we're offensient it all comes back to the commission at one time for final approval.
Okay. When I say we I really mean me. Well, in fairness to the commission, the mayor has taken on the role of what he's done as as the homework and what I'm hearing that he will then get it to you as a body for you to say,
"Yes, these are what we agreed upon for the city manager." Is that clear? >> Yeah. >> We'll just do it more quickly this time. Okay. Anything else on front page?
Then on to the back page. here. I um have way fewer because either these weren't necessarily mine or I couldn't figure out how to word them. >> Um the first one, one-on-one meetings, I
think that's that's sort of on each of us. >> Yeah. >> To to do that. So, I don't see how that is a goal. I think that's more of a goal for us to make sure that happens >> than to put that on him. >> And I did indicate in the email to all of you that I would like to set that up. I have one set up and I'm looking
forward to setting up the other four. >> Um, and something that had come up at our last meeting, I think the last couple of meetings was clarifying who's the communicator and who do we
want to see communication from and in what ways. And I think that's going to be that's not a goal for the city manager. I think that's a discussion we need to have at a work session. >> Well, isn't Miss Green and uh Lisa,
aren't they coming up with something? Isn't that why we had to meet with them individually? Because they're going over the communications thing and then how we're going to approach that in 2026. >> That's part of it. Yes. Mhm. >> But the the question and and I think I
stirred up because I said well we had said and the city manager and Lisa and I had sort of said I'll be the face and but we were expecting other commissioners were expecting things from the city manager. So we need to get
clear what what that is. Okay. um permitting process. Um so I made a couple of comments there. Not really a
that's in the form of a goal. Um you know >> what was the first word supposed to be? Stew study. >> What? >> True study. >> I think that's supposed to be true. >> Okay. True study. >> Oh no. That's how it came to me.
>> Okay. >> So, that was either one of y'all's type I don't know who's that >> I'm just going to say >> that comment was. >> This is your form, mayor. You're going to have to take responsibility. >> The my guess is the >> Okay, I think that's right. So, the new
goal is change culture, reduce number of resubmitt require explanation for >> sometimes bifocals don't work very good. Come on. And I would hope that the study leads to these things,
but from my point of view, that's what what needs to happen. And I know, and I'm going to make this comment, I think I'll make this comment tonight, too, because of an issue that somebody's going to be here to talk about something. Um, there have been so many times when when there's been a
complaint and I go look in citizen serve and I read through all that and I I'm on staff's side because they changed their plan. They didn't, you know, they got the the comments, they didn't respond to the comments. They um responded to the comments but then submitted something
else or they just or they waited five months to submit and then complained that the city was taking a long time. And when I see that, I defend the city. >> Right. But recently one has come up and I don't have the whole story so I'm going to be careful
but um we need to make sure that we're responding to the application fully the first time >> not just one issue.
>> Yeah. So that so that new comments don't come up without a reason for new comments. >> Okay? >> And I don't have the whole story. So that's why I'm trying to couch this the way I am. >> Okay? Because I know both of y'all know what I'm talking about.
>> Um it's actually a project a huge project out next to me. Um that and we aren't the in Semino County has also been a huge hold up. So, um, but anyway, >> but one of my goals would be that, you
know, there if the applicant is doing what they're supposed to do, there shouldn't be there shouldn't be so many resubmitts and I hope the process the study takes care >> and we don't Yeah, because we I don't want to create extra work for anybody, but it would be ideal if we could get
past anecdotal information and say based on all the applications we got last year, this is the percentage where it was. >> Well, he's he's provided that to us. >> We have had that. Yeah. Because you've given us numbers on that. How many and how many?
>> Um >> Well, >> so anybody who pays attention to our meetings and goes through that public information knows. >> I I I have a an idea and I know we have the refell study come in and I think
Mr. Romano has some ideas he's probably already pondering. Um, but I would also maybe like at some point to hear from our own budsman that you pushed >> for a year ago now.
>> Um, and maybe hear from her at some point during all of that all all of those studies and and ideas. uh because she has experience with other governments. >> That's a great idea. >> Um
is she seeing roadblocks? Is she seeing issues? >> Um I think she she she is brought in to to perform a duty. >> Um but if she's hitting roadblocks too,
>> what are we doing? Amy and I have spoken and she understands that were that to be happen and what the process is, she's also going to be involved with the private business association of Sino County's subcommittee dealing with development processes and getting from the developers any issues they have
dealing with Sanford and getting projects through the system. Okay. >> All right. So unless somebody has an idea of phrasing for that one, I'll come up with something. And then anticipating negative publicity.
I'm not sure how you necessarily do that. That is one of the things that was discussed at the um the communications meeting, >> the external communications policy >> that you know departments should be
letting communications know when something's happening that they think might >> That's correct, mayor. that where we know that >> there are certain hot button issues that we know the public is even rightfully
going going to jump on if a department is aware that that issue has come to the surface to make sure that Lisa is aware of it so that uh the city can respond proactively before the issue gets too
big and people are posting about it once you know about it to get that over to the communications department. >> The one thing early on um forever ago when I started this I think I think it's my 10th year um that really frustrated
me was when when when bad news came from the press and I got questions from the press before I ever heard from it from from anybody inside the city. Um, in many aspects that has improved.
What hasn't improved is is our own ability to get out in front of our own issues before they're they're too hot. And and I'm not going to go over what those issues might might not have been
recently, but somewhere along the line, people should have known that there was an issue that was going to affect people and it should have come to you and it should have been that should have been a meeting of minds
to put out something from the city ahead of ahead of the the the tornado or or a monsoon or the tsunami. >> Yeah. >> Um that's what that's where I'm coming from
on this. Um we got to do better. >> Yeah. I think the goal is that the the city manager should brief the commission on any potential issues that could be >> Well, but but he has but he has to have
>> and that's a part of it. Yeah. >> Right. I I believe that that we knew that there was a problem with Porchfest before they backed out. >> They made the final call to back out. We did not. >> Yeah. >> But we knew that there were issues. We
knew that we were we we had some hurdles uh on both sides that needed to be >> cleared. Um, I don't know if you got involved too late in the game or or you didn't know
it was so serious. I don't know. And I'm not here to rehash it, but but that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. No, >> of course, in fairness, I had met with them and I was still caught off guard. >> Okay. I I I completely understand that.
But but we knew there were issues. >> Yeah. But I felt safe handled. We need to treat others how we want to be treated. And that's everything from the permitting to communications to to to just to litter. It oftent times we take
this approach of it's us versus them. And we forget that we work for them. There is no us without them. And so we need to make sure that our communication we yes we stand up for employees and for city government, but let's also remember that we work for these people and we
don't often do that. Yeah. And we need to establish I agree with you, Commissioner Britain, that we just need to establish an environment where everybody in staff is comfortable raising what might be awkward or uncomfortable at the right time to the
right people based on what the citizens need. >> Okay. So, is there a goal there >> or is the communication plan that's already been worked on >> being worked on >> cover it? >> I think they're addressing it now.
>> Yeah, it is all part of communications. So, I can probably raised it enough times that we've got it covered in the right place. >> Okay. Hold on. >> I'm not sure the purpose of what they're doing meets what I'm concerned about.
So, I want to make sure that that you're a part of conversations with them, please. >> Okay. Doesn't have to be a goal, but I want to make sure that that we're all on the same page here. I I I
understood that uh attorney Green was concerned about legality issues uh falling on the city and even on us as individuals and that might be the reason we went down this road with this
um communications uh policy. Plus, I believe uh the communications people wanted everything to be streamlined and ran through them as well. Um, I'm not sure that that encompasses
staff letting the city manager know, city manager letting Lisa Holder know or or Nico or whoever the person may be. Okay, we need to get we need to get something written up on us. >> Does that make sense?
>> Okay. Okay, the next one. Um, I don't know whose this was, but I wasn't sure how to put it into a goal. Um, I think the the water, wastewater, storm water um is spread out across a couple of
other goals already. Um I don't know if there's something there to add or not. >> I'm sorry, which one? >> The functional priorities. >> This was kind of a part goal and part
just ranting based on our odor issues. just making sure it is a priority. It's kind of a given now from hindsight's perspective, but at the time I think I was trying to say maybe our priorities weren't in order,
address it through better infrastructure and manage the growth. But but you know, it's not a specific goal. It's just kind of an emphasis on where I think we need to be. >> Well, I think the infrastructure and
growth is a big part of the job. >> It is part of the job >> for all of us. Okay. Then technology. Um I didn't know if there was something specific there. I know we had talked about um
it's kind of related to the manual processes review. Uh maybe a simple more simple goal for the year could be to just have a presentation from IT on
where we are with IT projects. uh what have we changed? What's the what is better as a result? >> But uh I wonder if this is uh one of those places where we might need a master plan.
I know there's capital improvement uh probably that they have. But um >> yeah, and I'm sure Robert has something and I know we get re we get all of these work in progress being tested, but
digital transformation plan which >> um well as you were talking I wrote you know what if we just you know can we get identification of what are the next five processes andor forms that are going to be
or 10 or however many that are going to be done what's next >> you know what are the ones what do we expect to accomplish >> and have they been I don't even know more coming from them than from us because they've got that plan in place. I guess um
>> we just don't understand it. >> I I know uh there's been at least one director that spoke of maybe trying to get AI involved in some things. >> I wonder I wonder if that's a question for for it.
Can they can they kind of tell us uh if AI could be used in some of our processes to make them better coming down the road? >> Yeah. >> And Mr. Mayor, >> we're already doing some of that planning. >> One of the discussions that the
executive management team is having at tomorrow morning's meeting is dealing with technology and the municipal use of technology, which is a lot more than just it. it is computers, but there's a lot of municipalities that are using technology, whether it's for road improvement projects.
>> Um, so we're going to be looking at how can we use technology better in the city of Sanford and that's separate from it being computers and software, right? So, do you want me to write something up
like that for them to tell us what the next steps are >> or you want to wait for an actual presentation? >> I think it could be >> presentation might help at least me determine whether or not we need
specific goals beyond just ongoing Okay. Um, prioritize capitaliz capital projects. I think that's sort of covered already in here maybe. And then I added two on my own. They're at the end. Um, you know, we did the
civic centers um assessment. We've done some of the work that needed to be done. And I think if we're serious about um restoring that this we should um start looking at applying for um historic preservation grants.
Um so I'd like to see that done this year. I think they've raised the um the amount up to a million dollars now from 500,000. And then I've had some vague conversations with staff and with um
mainly just looking at some emails that you know that we get um and seeing what other cities have done is do we need can we look at um either floating solar panels? I know that's you know on retention ponds. Um do we want to look
at that? You know, I know we just put a roof on city hall, so that should make it more viable for solar panels on city hall. Um, do we want to look at a solar project in the city? >> Well, um, one that I I had hoped, um,
maybe we could we could work towards at some point is even just covered parking in this parking lot. They now put solar panels on them. Um, and I believe that there's a partnership there where where
it helps pay for and that our employees uh might have some covered parking for their vehicles while we're here. >> I like that idea. >> Thank you, G. >> All right. Any others? Anything else?
We did have something in here about personally inspecting city facilities at least monthly. >> You didn't include that one. Maybe because we already did it or was
that still a goal? >> Um that was a goal last year. Um I don't think it was monthly though. >> Yeah. How about how about we have a quarterly walk through of uh city facilities? Does that give them enough time? There's a lot of
>> more reasonable. Yeah, >> that the summer retreat, >> right? But it needs to be in position. >> The question is, do we keep it the summer retreat wasn't forever goals? >> No, but I mean it was just recent. So, I
mean, we should still be on those >> retreat, >> but we're doing goals for this year. >> Okay. >> Are we just going to copy what we did last year? >> Well, a lot of stuff hasn't been done, Patrick. So, you know,
>> so anyway, there's a lot of city facilities that I think a quarterly walk through uh with with the directors. Um so that he's apprised of >> the number of them. How much time is it
going to take him out? >> Well, that's why I said >> four times. >> Well, that's why I said monthly was crazy. If you think quarterly is too much, then >> we'll do it by annual. >> How is quarterly too too much?
You work it's five days a week that I mean the city manager can stay late or come in early or do on the weekend. That's necessary. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the commission, in my monthly reports to you, I do give you
updates in terms of my visits to the city facilities. >> I mean, just ran through my head, I can count 20, >> I'm sure I don't have them all in my head. So that's five facilities per quarter >> and then that would be just once per
year. >> You mean one one visit facility per year? I >> mean that's what we had last year I think. Isn't it? Okay. Um I'm I'm just going to play devil's advocate. Um,
how about uh what I I don't know. I don't know how far down the rabbit hole people expect us to go. Um, so he so he visited um
the public safety building six months ago. Do we know if anything was found? Do we know if there were any discussions about improvements that need to be made? Are there plans being made for those improvements? I mean, where are we headed here?
>> Yeah. Do we do we have an inspection as a goal and a report based on that inspection? Um, >> to me that starts to sound like micromanaging. >> Then sometimes micromanaging is but sometimes micromanaging is needed. It is
good for the city manager to lay his eyes on the different facilities to ask questions. Why is this black smut coming off of the the end of the the plant? Why do we have sudge here? You know, it's it's every now and then, especially in the state that we're we're in, it's okay
to micromanage, to just ask some questions, to be more involved, to actually go down the stairs and look at the pump. It >> and just to have the staff knowing that the city manager is coming out there for an inspection >> and that and that he will be asking
questions because he's in tune. Micromanaging is, I want to see what you're doing every single day. No, but I'm watching what's going on. I'm asking these questions. I'm following up and I'm gonna report back to the commission. >> Well, I was referring to the when he
visits a site, does he have to give us a report? >> I I'm He doesn't have to give me a report. >> Okay, that was the micromanaging >> manage. >> I I just would like like to make sure that he has eyes on these things. >> So, I'm not saying, "Well, I went down
there and I saw this, that, and the other. Did you not see that?" Yes, Commissioner. I saw that. We already addressed that. All right. Anything else? Okay. So, you'll have at least one more shot at it. All my goal will be to have this at our next meeting. Oh, except two
of us won't be here at the next meeting. >> Yeah. And I'm going to send you the simplified version or drop it into a Do we have a shared folder or >> uh Yeah, that's right.
>> We can't do it that way. >> Now, I can get it to everyone in advance and you can share feedback with the city manager >> who can then share it with the commission. >> Okay, do that. >> But we can't put a document there where all of us are going to work on it.
That'd make things too too easy. >> I know. >> You just reminded me when's the next meeting? I got to be sick. >> No, no, you are. >> One of the two of y'all aren't going to be here. I'm going to be very angry.
>> Listen, Vice, you're going to be managing the meeting >> because um No, because I'm leaving for Tallahassee after the meeting. >> Oh, you're going to be here? >> Yeah, I'll be here so that we have a quorum. >> Okay. I won't be sitting. >> You know that name. >> Okay.
I'll get that >> because you have to on Monday, don't you? >> I've seen her drive. She can she can make it in three hours. >> No, but I thought you had stuff on Monday. >> There is one meeting on Monday, but I don't necessarily have to do that. Uh
it's just getting up there for first thing Tuesday morning. >> Well, don't skip the Monday morning meeting. >> Yeah, I probably shouldn't. Yeah. So >> my committee would not be >> Yeah, you Yeah, I would. >> Okay.
>> So anyway, all right. So I will have that out so you can look at it before the meetings and share back. All right. Um, mayor board's appointments.
Can we go while I pull that up? Can we go to whatever the city manager had? >> Okay. The next item is the um regular meeting items and I would like to have Brent talk about one item which is the dispute res the resolution of the
dispute with the Delair meeting. It's on the agenda for your action but I'd like for Brent to have an opportunity to share with you the background of that. Although the agenda memo is pretty self-exlicit. Good evening, mayor and commission. Uh
the item that the city manager is uh referencing is an item for uh Dell Air. Uh so back in June of 2024, we went out uh to get quotes for the replacement of two air conditioning units at one of our
plant facilities. Um the quotes came in from the vendors. Uh we looked at the quotes. Uh the quotes were Dale Air was around uh 32,975. Uh Barnes was 43,000
and uh Fast Meer was 38,800. Uh so being that we requested two units, we looked at the quotes. It looked as if uh everyone had quoted two units. So we gave the work to Delair who was at 32,900.
um Delair went out to do the work and installed two units like the city asked for, but then they submitted an invoice for double the amount. So, of course, we questioned why the amount was doubled. And they said, well, their proposal was only for one unit. So, we asked, "Why
did you install two units?" They said an employee, I don't have all of the particulars and details, but allegedly an employee asked that they install a second unit, which to me was strange. But nonetheless, we disputed the uh the bill and um with the help of the city's
attorney um we were able to uh resolve the dispute with them, which is the basis of the $11,000 tonight, which was the additional that they're requesting above the $32,000 um that was in their original estimate.
And if I may, this this is just a area of training, right? So again, talking about where there are areas that just need improvement, we addressed it. I addressed the training issue, negotiated the resolution to make sure it was in
line with what the other proposals were. um worked with staff with regard to their policies and I look forward to seeing improvement. >> So no, we don't expect any issues from the other biders.
>> No, it no it that that was not an issue at all. It is just a training issue of a knowing what the policies provide for knowing what authorities you know people have. Sometimes training, you know, there's a
gap in training. So that's what I'm here for. We got through it. It's resolved. I got it negotiated in in line. So we didn't do anything exorbitant. Definitely not two units for 64 grand. >> And it's a done issue. >> What how big of units are these?
>> Oh, these were two 10 >> two 10 ton. But how how does that >> all right because now I guess we're micromanaging but I mean how does that get past like how does our directors and
our supervisors not see that something that large? Part of what part of what I'm doing and I'm working with the department heads and they're being receptive. So let me just put that out there. They're being receptive. There are areas where training needs to occur.
We're doing it. There are areas where we need to shore things up. No, no catastrophes. I'm not I'd let you know, but we're shoring it up. And I'm shoring it up to limit the fact that these happen again. And Brent was just very helpful in in
getting me again, this is a 2024 matter, but getting me the information so that we could reach it to a conclusion and move on. The two 10 ton units have already been installed. We're enjoying the air. So, how do we move forward with this? And that's what we're doing.
>> So, if there's a positive out of this, does that mean we got two units for less than what we would normally pay for them? >> Very competitively priced. >> There you go. >> Um, as to what we wind up receiving these two units for. And I'm just continuing to find not find issues, but
find areas where we can improve. And and that's that's what we're here for. >> Imagine how many times that's happening just throughout, not just in this department, but >> it was resolved and was resolved favorably. >> Sounds good to me.
>> Lesson learned. >> Thank you, Brent. >> All right. Thanks. >> Next item, briefing item. It's not on your agenda, but I've asked Chief Smith to share with the commission what the police department has been doing and will be doing so we don't have future
incidences like the one that's been reported in the media. Good evening, mayor, commissioners, Mr. Bon Park. Um, city manager asked me to give you a kind of an overview of what's been taking place with regards to uh,
investigator Ronnie Neil. Just to give you kind of a timeline and before I get started, I just want you to know that there are things that I can discuss and there's things that I cannot share. Um, and please don't get frustrated because I can't share it. Just to give you a
little bit of a timeline, Ronnie has worked from with the department from 2003 until December of 2025. Between October 23rd and October, sorry, 2023 and July of uh 2024,
Ronnie had placed 79 details uh details to be build for work at the Loss of Eaton, which was on Reinhardt Road. July of 2024, the city finance department began reviewing and reconciling unpaid
vendors accounts associated with offduty details. Ronnie at the time was requested to produce invoices and information to the finance department to reconcile these accounts. In August of 2025, police administration was made aware of the unresolved
accounts and the continued lack of invoices and documentation. At that time a plan and a timeline was put in place task and Ronnie to provide the information as he was the sole person in charge of this area of responsibility.
October of 2025 a follow-up meeting was held with the finance department and administration. Some accounts had were reconciled but there were a number of accounts that were unpaid at that point. A deadline was set for November 25th of 2025 was given to Ronnie to have all of
the invoices and items completed. November 25th, the finance department deadline was uh was reached. Notification was made to police administration that the there were discrepancies or not rectified and the matter appeared to at this point
be a criminal matter. That day, a criminal investigation began. Between December 1st and 9th, the duties and responsibilities related to Ronnie Neil was reassigned to include information relating to all details and internal affairs investigations.
On December, between December 9th and December 15th, Ronnie Neil was placed on administrative leave. During this time, additional information was collected and reviewed with the state's attorney's office, FDLE, and a request was made by myself to uh
reach out to sec to the secret service due to the amount of information and funds um and the locations of those funds where they were at. During this time, Ronnie Neil submitted his letter of resignation. Also during this time, the investigation
revealed that the Loft of Eatens had never had an offduty detail or overtime detail at this location. The city of Sanford had paid Ronnie Neil through payroll during this time frame from 2023 through 2024.
On December 16th, with the information obtained during the this time frame, a warrant was wassued for the arrest and termination of Ronnie Neil. The investigation continues as there are there as there may be other victims
related to the recept deception and fraud committed by Ronnie Neil. As it is an ongoing investigation, I cannot share a great deal of the backgrounds or the details related to the case, especially in a public forum.
79 charges of official misconduct were filed based on his time sheets that were submitted. one count of organized fraud was was uh filed as well and that's based on the fact that he was the one the sole individual who prepared the
time sheets who prepared and created the false detail and the fraudulent activity that took place. Presently the ongoing investigation is into the details of Ronnie Neils and how payments were made and the invoices
activities of all vendors. Again, the Secret Service and FDLE are assisting with this investigation. A lot of investigation, a lot of the investigation movement is dependent upon the finance department balancing the accounts for details and
over time. So, we can see exactly where the gaps in the funds received and vendors have not been paid. There is presently a forensic uh analysis or a fris forensic accounting which is being done with the finance
department with the assistance of FDLE. The internal issues that have been found. This case highlighted a concern with a failure to review the time sheets, sign them and put them into the payroll system. This matter has been corrected. Changes that are already in place.
Powers details has been assigned to a sergeant and a lieutenant to overview. The finance department is uh responsible now for invoicing all payments and collections of payments due from in from individuals from vendors.
Officers are now required to log in to power details when they arrive in detail arrive at the details which is a check in which which while checkin uses GPS notifications of where the officers are.
This must be done to check in and out of the uh details. It's a time clock system. The policies have been updated with a number of critical changes. Time sheets must all be approved and signed by supervisors.
Any adjustments made to time sheets after the submission must be approved. Have approval documentation from the supervisor before payroll inputs them. We're presently reviewing an outside a number of outside organizations and
offduty details within for the department. This service will allow for better accounting, invoicing, invoicing, payments, and payments to other officers. This includes this includes also highlights the need for an updated
payroll system and the payroll system and payroll and time sheet system online uh electronic submissions uh would create a immediate supervisory approval and documentations of all time sheets. As some of you uh have asked about how
did this happen, I can share with you that Ronnie Neil was the primary detail coordinator for the past 10 to 12 years. He was the sole person with access to the system and held one of the highest positions and trusted positions within the department.
The practice that placed Ronnie Neil in the sole position is responsibility for both doing invoices to and from vendors as well as collecting payments. Again, this wasn't uh brought to our attention until August of 2025 when both the
deputy chief and I had met with finance and made aware of the situation that there was issues and concerns involving the payments and invoices of retail sorry payments regarding offduty details. We had no idea that any of the funds
were missing and unpaid invoices were made until we had that meeting. We were assured that Ronnie Neil was working on the issues and at that meeting finance finance was given access to our power details website uh which
was immediately granted by myself as um we were as we thought we had nothing to to hide. We gave them complete access to the information so that they have an opportunity to review the circumstances which also allow for them to have the
opportunity to go back and check any of the past year's issues and concerns. It goes without saying that we place our trust in a person who chose to lie, steal and defraud those around him. This would include some of you at the dis as
he was a friend of many of you as well including myself. During my press conference, I made statement that I had no idea who Ronnie Neil who I have no idea who Ronnie Neil truly is. The deeper the deeper we dug into his life,
the more lies and deceptions we have uncovered. He lived the lies he lived a life in the shadows and fed upon our trust and relationships to cover up his criminal activity. Just to give you an example, and none of this is affecting the outcome of the uh
the case. None of us knew that Ronnie Neil was married. >> He failed. >> What does that have to do? That's >> it. When you get the entire case, Commissioner, you will completely understand that. >> But there's things that you said that you you shouldn't be discussing. So,
let's just keep it like that respectfully, sir. his okay the personal things that are not related to this exact incident. I don't need to know, sir. >> Well, ma'am, it does, but it doesn't. But if you don't want to hear it, then that's good with me, Commissioner. No
disrespect. >> I I appreciate it. >> This fraud should have been caught years ago because we because he was in a position of great trust, we failed to see his criminal actions under our nose. As the chief of police, part of the failure falls on me. I am the director
of the department. I will not speak for any other department within the organization or any within the city. We also we always look for lessons learned situations to learn from and this incident has taught us a great deal with that. We have have developed solutions
to deal with the details. We're looking into outside vendors to deal with the major aspects of the details. And what this will allow to do is allow finance and outside organization to set safeguards to ensure that this does not
happen again. As I stated earlier, we are still investigating the incident and we believe that additional charges outside of the 80 charges that he has filed with now will be uncovered and additional criminal charges will be filed. I will take any questions that
you have and I'll be able to answer what I can. Uh because again, it is an ongoing case. As I stated in the beginning, please don't get frustrated if I cannot answer all of your questions. Previously, I had sent an email indicating that if any of you wanted to sit down with me and have a
straight conversation about the entirety of this uh case outside of a public forum, I would gladly do that. The only person who has taken me up on that has been Commissioner Austin. >> Any questions?
>> Mr. fun part here at city hall in the utilities department. When you have three pass through payments, you the account is shut down. It's final for non-pay. When a bank gets so many NSF fees, they freeze the account. So, I'm not asking anything of the the the
chief. I just want to put that out there that I don't understand how we get to not knowing that far out. doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not I'm not accusing finance of anything,
not accusing chief of anything, but I know that in certain areas we have some things that stop things instead of it constantly reoccurring. That that that it don't sit right with me to say this many invoices came through and we didn't
know and all of that. That is that's really funny. But I'm going to believe that the department is handling it and and we've got all of the information that we need. But to say that we just I I especially because our finance
department, we get, you know, awards for exceptional service and and and all of the stuff that we're doing. And I know in different departments, we have things that shut things down when it's is when it's too many pass through invoices or or too many uh bills that have gone out.
Just like I said in utilities, three pass through, final for nonpay shut down. You can't even proceed. So for that many invoices to come through, for that many details, I don't understand it. But I'm going to let the experts hand it handle it. I don't even need a response.
>> Any other questions of the chief? Chief, uh to up to this point in the investigation, uh we don't know of any other parties that uh were involved or >> as it stands right now, the primary person that we're looking at is Ronnie
Hill. >> Okay. >> But as the investigation continues, we're not really sure at the moment. >> Okay. Chief, my only question is the things that you've put in place now, are they requiring anything extraordinary in terms of staff time over time or is it
just more a change in the processes to make this not happen again? >> Essentially, it's been a change in process. Again, we're looking for outside vendors. This way, it takes our hands completely off. The only thing we would end up doing going forward is selecting the officers to go and do the
details. Everything else would be automated and the invoices, payments, everything will go directly to financing finance. >> And while chief, you you've done a great job of setting forth, you know, what is
believed to be transpired. I just want to remind everyone on the deis that these are allegations. There's been no conclusion. sheet is setting forth what those allegations are and the legal system is is taking through its process. So there's been no final conclusion and I also appreciate while there are
definitely additional questions that we allow this process to go through um without having those discussions. >> I would also add to what has been said is that the finance department was not involved. This was solely being handled within the police department, not the
finance department. Thank you for that clarification. Chief, is it possible, sir, respectfully, just to remind um your new police officers and even your veterans police officers who the commissioners are. I have a hard time, but I know outside of wearing a
badge, it's probably difficult for me to come up to you and say, "Hi, I'm Commissioner Britain." But if it's possible, I' i've gone to the pen pinning ceremonies and stuff like that, but I don't I don't know what we can do, sir. But I'm I don't shouldn't have to
wear a cloak every time. >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right. >> Okay. >> Okay. Thank you, Chief. >> Thank you, sir. >> Mayor, it is 510 after 6. Also on the agenda is the city clerk evaluation that
was sent to you. You can decide if you want to bring it up now or at another time. Um, let me go through appointments real quick because that won't take long. Um, because there's not really much change. Um, and then we can bring that up. Um, and I don't think it's going to take a
discussion time. We can do that at 7 o'clock. Um, so board appointments that that um I take care of there. no real change except the vice mayor will be um Commissioner Wiggins
and I have asked him and I've asked leadership seminals permission to allow him to be um the delegate to the leadership seinal board um because those are meetings that I can very rarely
attend um and since he is actually doing um seminal leadership this year um I thought that would be um a good fit. Um otherwise, counto is still Commissioner Thomas um Commission on Homelessness
Commissioner Thomas um community service block grant is staff with um uh Miss Osbbor League of Cities Patrick Austin um leadership seminal already covered mayors and managers will be me and Mr.
Bonapart mostly Mr. Mona Park, Metro Plan, myself with Commissioner Britain is back up. Public art commission, uh, Patrick Austin, Sanford Airport Authority, myself with Commissioner Britain is back up. Um, Sanford Airport Noise is still our citizen. Um, Kenneth
Stars, um, Sanford Housing Authority, Commissioner Wiggins, Museum Board, Commissioner Britain, um, Seminal Chamber is Mr. Bonapart, Tourism Development Council, myself um
Tri County League of Cities is Mr. Bonapart. Although does that fall under you also, Mr. Commissioner Austin, as part of League of Cities? >> Okay. And then um the Ritz theater which is actually their
appointment is myself. Sanford Main Street which is their appointment is Commissioner Thomas. Central Florida Zoo which is their appointment is um Tracy Hooen. Um Sanford Chamber of Commerce, myself and Mr. Bonapart. Um we do have
one um the Eileen um Metro Plan Community Advisory Committee. Um we had I can't remember her name, but she sent us a resignation. Mr. Bonafart, do you remember?
>> You remember getting the resignation? Do you know who I'm talking about? Okay, then I will get get with y'all. But I I'm thinking that I will ask um Nick uh Belvich if he would like to serve on that. But I'll clarify with you and Mr. Bonapart on that one. Any
questions on appointments? >> I don't know if it needs to be on that list, but uh I want to remind you all that I've I've taken a position on the Rescue Outreach Commission board. >> Okay. Um, and I've been asked by Commissioner Lheart to uh serve on the Sunreil
Citizen Advisory Board. >> And I you healthy enough for all this? >> Yes. >> Um, and I will uh I will gladly uh since Commissioner Thomas has stepped forward to take uh um
>> what did I do while I was out? take a participation in the League of Cities. I would gladly turn over that to her. Uh she >> she seems to be more in tune with the things that are going on with them right now than I am. So >> I would go along with that.
>> It's going to be our the League of Cities um >> designate point of contact. >> Okay. >> Ba basically uh a once a year conference. You would go to that you would go to that Saturday session and vote.
>> Well, we always appoint that each time anyway, but yeah, >> you would be the the first choice. >> Okay. All right. Any other comments or questions or request? Okay, then on to um the city the city
clerk's evaluation. Um I I'm okay with it. >> I mean, it looks fine to me. It's I'm with it. May I have any comments? Um, do we know what um >> I just don't know.
>> Can you get me by the next meeting um what the pay adjustment would be based on the rating? >> Okay. All right. >> Then we'll cover that at the end of the time she showed up all year. >> Okay.
>> All right. Um, >> anything else? Mr. Breton, >> am I going to wait till the next >> Mr. W? >> Mr. Austin, >> Mr. Thomas. Oh, well then I'll do two
things real quick. >> No. >> Yes. Um, Mr. Roando, >> what whatever happened about us getting commissioner pictures out on the wall? Because I know I was rushed to get my picture taken. I was. >> And >> me too.
>> We all were. >> Where? Why haven't those appeared? >> Waiting on one, sir. >> Who are you waiting on? >> Who you waiting on? Go ahead and say it. >> Uhuh. I gave you I sent you my pictures. >> All the pictures are The whole point was all the pictures supposed to be the
same. >> They was professional pictures taken by the League of Cities. All right. I don't It's so hard for me to get there to take the pictures. Jeez. I just got fired for coming to commission meetings. Now I was talking about taking Oh my god. Okay.
>> I know. I like the one I had to, but we had to do another one. >> I'm sure mine's really bad. So, >> yes. Um, >> we haven't even seen them yet. >> Mr. Osborne, I asked you this and I need
you to rem to remind me who is the one member of CDB >> continue here. >> Um, the block grant board that has confirmed that they do not want to continue. >> Do we anybody know right off hand whose appointee that is?
is yours. Okay. Then we would look to you to um suggest somebody I know Commissioner Thomas, you had somebody that you were hoping to put on there. >> Put on what? >> On CDBG if you want to share that with Mr.
>> Britain. In fact, uh she submitted an application to the Main Street Board as well. So >> we're going to share that name with her and then Mr. Britain >> Carol >> make a decision. >> Cohen C O W she's a chair for uh recovery
connections currently. >> Okay. And there's nothing else we are joined. >> Okay. Yeah, right. >> No, let me tell you this. I was going to say something. Part: 2
Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Okay. Do you have candy?
>> I need to chew on something. >> Okay. We go ahead and call to order the meeting of the Sanford City Commission uh for Monday, January 12th, 2026. First meeting of the year. Happy new year, everyone. Um we will start with our legislative prayer um provided by Pastor
Davidson of Allen Chapel followed by the pledge of allegiance. If you can please stand. Let us pray. Oh most merciful and great God, we come here tonight. Oh heavenly father, we ask you for your guidance, your wisdom and your courage and your
and your support. Oh heavenly father, as this city commissioner meeting is about to start, oh heavenly father, heavenly father, as we are working together to become a better city, we we need your guidance, oh heavenly father. And heavenly father, because some decision
that would be made tonight might affect some of this this this great city. And so we just ask you for your guidance. We actually we thank you for the cooperation of the elected official, the brothers and sister in blue, the community agencies, and the the citizen
of this great city. And we just ask all of this in your son Jesus' name. Amen. >> Amen. >> Aliance >> to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you, pastor. >> Thank you, P. We have a couple of proclamations tonight. The first is America 250. If I could have Deborah Bower come out up. She is the chair of the seminal cultural
arts council and the chair of seminal county's America 250 committee >> whereas July 4, 2026 marks marks the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, a defining mo moment in the history when American
colonies declared their independence from Great Britain, forever changing the course of our nation and inspiring democratic movements around the globe. And whereas while the story of American Revolution is most often told through the original 13 colonies, Florida also played a distinct role during this era
as East Florida with its capital in St. Augustine and West Florida with its capital in Pensacola had been established as British colonies in 1763 with the land that would later become Seminal County as part of British East Florida. And whereas following Britain's
acquisition of Florida from Spain, the British crown directed German surveying ctographer John William Gerard de Bron to survey East Florida. And during his travels along the St. John's River in the 1760s, he passed through what is now Semino County, becoming among the
earliest known Europeans to document this region. And whereas in 1765, De Bron produced one of the earliest surveyed maps of East Florida, representing the first known detailed mapping of portions of present- day Semino County and providing important insight into the area's 18th century
origins. And that map is hanging at the Semino County History Center, is it not? >> A copy of >> Yes. And during whereas during this period, the British crown made large land grants to individuals including Dr. Sir William Stork, Sir Alexander Grant,
John Beersford, Captain Samuel Bington, Captain John Jervis, and William Henry Rickettts around Lake Grant, Lake Beers, and Upper Lake, which are now known as Lake Monroe, Lake Jessup, and Lake Carney. And these early land grants established some of the first surveyed land ownerships of what would become
communities of Simol County. Whereas America 250 provides a meaningful opportunity for communities to reflect on our shared history, honor the courage and sacrifice of those who helped secure our independence and recommit ourselves to the enduring principles of freedom, democracy, and self-government. Now
therefore, IR Woodruff, by virtue of the authority vested to me as the mayor of the city of Sanford, Florida, do hereby recognize the significance of the United States semi-quincentennial and encourage our community to participate in educational, historical, and civic activities that honor our
nation's 250-year journey and reaffirm our shared commitment to the ideals upon which America was founded. >> So, um, I want to take this opportunity. Uh last June I was named by the seminal county historical commission of which I'm a historical commissioner the chair
of the seminal what we call shorthand because semi-quincentennial if you say that too many times you just will trip yourself up so we shorthanded at it seminal 250 and we gave all seven municipalities seminal state college seminal county public school board
Orlando Sanford international airport and seminal county itself 10 days to get together to be in time to appoint someone for the first meeting and I'm very very thankful that Mr. Bonapart, Mayor Woodruff, and the commissioners
were so helpful in such short notice in appointing, believe it or not, our vice chair for that subcommittee is actually someone familiar to the city of Sanford. So, if Lisa Holder could come down here and and be acknowledged because she was also the city of Sanford's
representative for four months and worked very hard on this with us all uh representing the citizens of Sanford and everyone did it out of love, out of hope and dedication and a desire to commemorate uh not many democracies. As
a matter of fact, we're fun historical fact and I'll shut up after this because this is the history teacher in me. We're the only democracy that's ever turned 250 years old >> because the last time that that there was an de democracy before the United States was going back to ancient Greece
back in in the fifth century. So it's it's a pretty amazing thing and there's going to be lots of wonderful things in the city of Sanford at the Ritz Theater in Semino County and all of the other municipalities and and host organizations. and keep your ears out, keep your eyes out because we're going
to have a chance to celebrate really what is an incredible uh achievement here in Seminal County for um sometimes we we forget how far back we go. It wasn't just to the times of Henry Sanford. We go back a lot further. And so I encourage you to learn, come to our
museum, go to the city of Sanford Museum, learn, find out, and celebrate because it's an accomplishment. >> I remember I can have Miss Osborne come up as representative of community relations.
Whereas Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. devoted his life to advancing equality, social justice, and opportunity for all and challenged every generation to participate in never- ending work of building a more perfect union through non-violence, service, and love. And whereas Dr. King believed deeply in the
power of individual action declaring in one of his final sermons, everybody can be great because anybody can serve. You only need a heart full of grace, a soul generated by love, and you can be that servant. And whereas ever more after more than 15 years of national advocacy,
Dr. King's birth date was recognized as a federal holiday with signing of legislation by President Ronald Reagan on November 2nd, 1983, with the first official observance held in 1986. And whereas in keeping with Dr. King's ideals under the leadership of Mayor Betty Smith and Commissioner Robert
Thomas, Sanford held its first Martin Luther King Jr. celebration in 1987 featuring an interdenominational religious observance, youth poster, essay, essay, and ortorical contest and a community lunchon and under the leadership of pastor Dr. Harry Rucker
and the first Shiloh Missionary Baptist Church expanded to include a parade and festival in Fort Men Park. Whereas the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Steering Committee Incorporated, established as a nonprofit organization in 2009, continues to honor Dr. King's legacy
through the annual celebration, now in its 39th year, including the memorial banquet, ortorical scholarship program, clergy, and community leader recognition, parade, and festival in the park, engaging thousands of Sanford residents, and awarding scholarships to
local students. And whereas while we celebrate the progress achieved through the civil rights movement, we acknowledge that Dr. King's dreams remain unfinished. And through Sford's long-standing Martin Luther King Jr. celebrations and service activities, we recommmit ourselves to advancing
justice, equality, and compassion, through both our words and actions. Now, therefore, I would by the virtue of the authority vested in me as the mayor of the city of Sanford, Florida, do hereby proclaim January 19th, 2026 as Martin Luther King Jr. today honoring
the legacy inspiring the future in the city of Sanford and encourage all residents to honor Dr. King's legacy through service to others and active engagement in our community. >> Right. Thank you. >> Thank you. regarding speaking before the city
commission. To facilitate public input, if you plan to speak on an item, please complete one of the yellow um citizen input forms uh which you will find at the back and submit it um and place it in the in the tray there. It be brought forward to us. The public will be given an opportunity to speak on any item
before the city commission during a regular meeting before the consent agenda um is voted on. I will ask if anyone wants to speak on any of those items during public hearings on at each item. Well, I will um ask if anyone wishes to speak before a motion is made during regular items. If comments are
not called for um please raise your hand to be recognized. Uh there's a three-minute time limit for each speaker on each item except a person representing an organization presenting its views during a quai judicial hearing. Citizen participation is after public hearings and individuals may
address the commission on any topic not on the agenda. There's a fivem minute limit for citizen comments. So that brings us to the minutes of December 8th regular meeting and work session. >> One correction, mayor. Um uh it's
showing Commissioner Britain is absent um on the December 8th I was present. Um usually if if I'm late or if anyone else on the DAS is late, it'll show arrived at but it shows absent. Could could we correct that to show present and then
arrived at 11 7:11 p.m. versus it showing absent? >> Absolutely. >> And I'll go ahead and uh move to approve with uh the amendment. Okay. Second. >> Any further discussion? All in favor?
>> Any opposed? Question answer. Is there anyone in the comm in the audience that wishes to speak on any of the consent agenda items? I'll bring that to the commission for a motion or if you would like to pull something. >> Move to approve. >> Second. Motion in a second. Any further
or all in favor? I. >> Any opposed? Pass unanimously. I would like to um go off agenda for just a moment. We have um I think what should be a quick issue
in planning and I don't know is Eileen did you want to you know set the stage and then we'll have the applicant come forward. Good evening. Eileen Henson, director of
planning. Um, before us, you're going to hear from an applicant. In the land development regulations, the city commission has set an expiration of our ability at an administrative level to continually extend permits or applications of six months on top of the
stateisssued determination of either four months or six months depending on the type of application. We have an application an applicant that's before us that would like to request an additional extension so they don't have to start back over in a period of time that they're really close to finishing.
So not to have to start over and I can't extend it any further with my administrative powers. So the applicant is going to request the city commission wave the maximum expiration period that I have so that you can grant me the authority to give him a further
extension. Abbas. >> Hello everyone. My name is Abbas Abdul Hussein. My family owns the land on the corner of East Lake Mary Boulevard and Melanville. Three years ago, you all approved a PD for there. Um, you approved it because staff was
supportive. The neighbors were behind it and it was just good for the city. Um, I've been working for the last three years to get that engineered and entitled. Um, and it's been an education um, and the process that's involved to do that. Um,
with the county, with St. John's, and with the city. Um, last November, I thought we were there. We got our, uh, Seminal County letter saying they had no objections to moving the pond. We got our St. John's approval and we got our response back from the city with like
three comments, maybe five. Um, so I thought we were at the finish line. I I could taste it. So we put in our submission and uh in December we got our response and there were 22 comments on there. Um, so we um obviously we were surprised. So we had a meeting with with
staff and they were very gracious um to have that meeting with us and we found out that when we got the three comments a full engineering review had not been conducted. So that was why we got 22 comments in the second thing. Instead of us figuring out where the miscommunication happened, I said,
"Let's just solve the problem. Let's go through these 22 items and and and get them nipped in the bud." We did. We've got responses ready to go in on Friday. Um and I'm hoping this is the end of the line and we can get this done. Um unfortunately, our application expires
this this week. So that means that not only will be we not be at the finish line after all this time and money that my family has spent, we're going to be put back at the starting gate if we don't get this extension. Um, and I've talked to Brady and and the mayor all
the time. We get calls all the time for residential for um uh sorry, talked to Brady all the time. We get calls all the time for um what residential and multif family development in in this area. Uh, but I promised the neighbors that we
would do industrial because that would protect their lifestyle on the lake. Lance Lance was especially adamant on that and that's what I want I want to keep doing. I'm at the finish line. I just need help to get there. That's all. Thank you for your time today. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the commission,
um, is it fair to say the staff supports this request? >> Staff supports the request. We would we would very much like to finish this project and get it over the finish line. And and I would say it took over 20 years to get agreement on this development and we would like to get it done.
>> Right. When I first started here 27 years ago, they had just held public hearings on what could be on the property like the first time of many that we've almost we're almost over the finish line. >> So it right. So I would appreciate if we could have a motion to um give staff
opport the authority to extend the permit. >> Move to approve. >> Second. Any further discussion? >> No, sir. >> All in favor? >> Any opposed? Pass unanimously. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great. So then we will get back to the agenda. The first public hearing at
second reading of ordinance 4840, >> an ordinance of the city commission of the city of Sanford, Florida, substantially and comprehensively revising and amending the provisions of schedule H and articles I and excuse me, one and two of the city of Sanford code
land development regulations relating to the application processes, required documents, final plat approvals, parking exemptions, EV parking incentives, and administrative official authority, providing for legislative findings and attempts, providing for a savings
provision, providing for conflicts, providing for severability, providing for exhibits, codification, and the correction of scrier's errors, and providing for an effective date. >> Mr. Mayor, members of city commission, city staff recommend that the city commission adopt ordinance number 4840
as delineated by the city attorney. This is a public hearing. Anyone from the audience wish to speak to the site? I'll close second hearing. We had discussion about this at our last meeting. Um questions or a motion? >> Move to approve. >> Second.
>> A motion and second. Any further discussion? >> All in favor? Any opposed? Menley. >> Second reading of ordinance 4841. Ordinance number 4841, an ordinance of the city of Sanford, Florida, vacating and abandoning a portion of right ofway
of Avocado Avenue located between Third Street and Fifth Street and between Olive Avenue and Pecan Avenue relating to the parcels of property generally located in the 300 block of Avocado Avenue, Sanford, Florida of said right ofway being platted in the plat of Cohen
Martin Terrace as recorded in plat book 10, page 95 of the public records of Semino County providing for future easements as required by the city. Providing for legislative findings and intent. Providing for incorporation of exhibits. Providing for taking of
implementing administrative actions and owner agreements. Providing for a savings provision and ratification of prior actions, providing for conflicts, providing for severability, providing for non-codification, and providing for a contingent effective date. >> Mr. Mayor, members of city commission,
city staff recommends that the city commission adopt ordinance number 4841 as delineated by the city attorney. >> This is a public hearing. Anyone from the audience wish to speak to this item? Seeing no one, I'll close the public hearing to approve.
>> Second motion and second. Any further discussion? All in favor? >> Any opposed? Passion. >> Our second reading ordinance 4842. As to ordinance number 4842, an ordinance of the city of Sanford, Florida, vacating
and abandoning the plat of Castle Brewer Court, generally located between 8th Street and 10th Street, and between Malbury Avenue and Olive Avenue, and between 10th Street and 11th Street, and between Jessimine Avenue and Aliander Avenue as recorded in Plaquebook 10,
pages 17 and 18 of the public records of Semino County, providing for future easements as required by the city, prov Providing for legislative findings and intent. Providing for incorporation of exhibits. Providing for the taking of implementing administrative actions and
owner agreements. Providing for a savings provision and ratification of our actions. Providing for conflicts. Providing for severability. Providing for non-codification. And providing for a contingent effective date. >> Mr. The mayor, members of the city commission, city staff recommends that
the city commission adopt ordinance number 4842 on first reading as delineated by the city attorney. This is a public hearing. And one from the audience wish to speak to the second. Seeing no one, I'll close the public hearing. Bring the commission for action. >> Move to approve. >> Second.
>> Motion to second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? Passion. The next item is qui gestual. So I will read that statement and this will apply both to item D and to item
G which is the appeal of the HPB approval. So in order to conserve time, I'll read this statement once. When an agenda item includes a quasi judicial process, commissioners must disclose all expert communications, including the name of
the communicator and the time, place, and substance of the communication. Written communications, commissioner's investigations, site visits, and receipt of expert opinions must also be disclosed and made a part of the record. Persons who have opinions contrary to those expressed in exparte communication may refute or respond to the
communication at the hearing when they make their presentation. In a quai judicial process, parties to the proceeding are generally the city and the applicant. Others who have a legal standing to appeal the decision can also request to be recognized as party as a party. Parties are subject to
cross-examination and must give their testimony under oath. Persons do not have to be a party to the proceedings to be recognized and provide comments. Members of the public who wish to make comments are not subject to cross-examination and are not sworn in sworn in as evidentiary witnesses. Comments of the public that provide
facts relative relevant to the application are considered in the decision. Qualifications of city staff are part of the agenda materials. All testimony and evidence provided to the city commission must be competent material and substantial under Florida law. A guide to quai judicial hearing
proceedings has been published on the city's website and copies are available at the table at the back of the chambers. Okay. So, if you are going to provide evidence on D, which is the exceptional
use for um 11:09 French Avenue, if you would please stand, or if you will be um providing evidence on the appeal of the HPB board's denial for 101 East First Street, if you would please stand. >> Sir,
>> Muhammad, it's like >> you want to stand. >> It's like join me. Is anybody else going to be speaking on your behalf? >> If I could get your names, >> do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give in the matters now at hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth. So be God. >> All right. Thank you. All right. So, which brings us to the first reading of exceptional use um for CRF. Okay. To the attorney, >> we haven't introduced it yet,
>> right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, which one of y'all is >> I thought you were handling it. >> Yeah. I have a presentation if you need a presentation, but it's not a reading of an ordinance or anything. So, there's I don't know if there's anything for the attorney to read. Just city manager to introduce it. >> Okay. The city manager needs to
introduce. >> Well, what about >> 11:09 French? >> Right. That's >> that's the one we're on. >> Mr. Mr. Mayor, members of the city commission, on November the 6, 2025, at its regularly scheduled meeting, the city's planning and zoning commission
voted to recommend that the city commission approve an exceptional use for commercial resource facility within the urban infill project at 11:01 French Avenue based on the request meeting standard soil consideration of an exceptional use for a community resource
facility. >> Right. Ela, are you going to explain what exceptional use and CRF is for the public? >> Yes, >> since we don't usually have these. >> Yeah, we usually don't have them and then we definitely don't usually have them in one request. >> Okay.
>> Okay. So, before you is a request for an exceptional use for a community resource facility to which they'll also be adding urban infill criteria to make a non-conforming property work as an infill. Okay, so some basic site information.
The site's about half an acre. It's at 11:09 French Avenue and it's currently zoned and land use of general commercial. It is a vacant building at the moment. So in 2010, we had an urban infill conditional use which was
approved to allow a funeral home with specific conditions, but the funeral home was never constructed. And the in 2023 someone came back and had a a pre-application which is our current applicant now. The applicant
requested staff advised them on how to proceed with a medical clinic or an office. They we advised them of the process which was a conditional use for urban infill a cap meeting and development plans. But after working with the applicant, it was revealed in later discussions that CDBG was funding
it for a free clinic. And staff identified the use then as a community resource facility. It was no longer just a medical clinic. So a community resource facility is a public or private facility providing resources for the welfare of the community including but
not limited to substance abuse, mental health services, food, commodity distribution, meals for social service, community residential home, residential care facilities that serve persons under court order because of criminal activity or who are undergoing rehabilitation for substance abuse. This use excludes
houses of worship when the house of worship is the principal use, but it requires both conditional use approval and approval by the city commission. So, because this is a private facility that's providing resources to the community, it falls within this
definition. So, early 2025, a pre-application meeting was then held. Um, the applicant requested the second preapp in order to proceed with the free clinic as defined as a CRF and not the medical office which we originally reviewed it as. There were distance
separation requirements and exceptional use approval now instead of just a medical office. The distance separation required a waiver from the city commission because they didn't meet them. So, at the July 14th, 2025 commission meeting, the commission
approved the distance separation waiver, did not approve the CRF, only allowed the applicant to proceed with requesting the community resource facility at this location. So, the applicant appropriately submitted an exceptional use application for a community resource
facility with a request for urban infill flexibility as it is a an existing non-conforming infill property. So, there are several urban infill requests that the applicant has placed. They're in your um packet, but basically
it was an area and dimensional regulations from schedule schedule C regarding setbacks. The it's an existing building. It was built in the 1925 and the structure is closer than it needs to be. So, there's some setback requirements that are required. Schedule
C also requires um closer principal structure on the east and the north. It's laid out on the site plan, but basically it's because it's a non-conforming building and it's already there. So instead of getting into the the details of every setback, it's
really just an existing building. And then okay and then the um the bigger one is the buffer requirement. So there's a buffer requirement between commercial buildings and residential properties. There's also distance separations between community resource facilities
and residential properties. So as part of this non-conforming property, the commission has waved the distance separations, but there also need deviations and and um waiverss well variances from the buffers that are required between the commercial and the
residential uses. As an existing building, it's a small property doesn't meet those requirements. So as part of this request, that's what's noted on the site plan as meeting those deviations. So an exceptional use for community resource facility has various criteria
and I'll simplify it to the best of my ability. So it's consistency with the comprehensive plan, consistency with strategic and redevelopment plan, development plan compliance, and then required separation distances, noise and soundproofing, parking and
traffic circulation. So, oh, and then public safety public safety and and police protection as well as compatibility with the area character. So the city of Sanford's land development
regulations require that the planning and zoning commission when considering on an urban infill flexibility shall observe the specific standards, make findings whether the applicant meets the standards and in granting the application they can prescribe appropriate safeguards and conditions.
Staff finds that the request generally meets the standards for consideration for urban infill flexibility and the uses uses the ability to provide a public benefit and being compatible with existing uses in the surrounding area. The city of Sanford's land development
regulations require that the planning and zoning commission in considering and acting upon an application for an exceptional use for community resource facility observe specific standards that are in your staff report. make findings as to whether the application meets those standards. In granting any
application, the planning and zoning commission recommends to the city commission any reasonable and adequate stipulations or conditions that can be placed upon the the property in order to ensure compatibility to properties in the neighborhood. So based upon the submittal, staff finds the request generally meets the
standards for consideration of an exceptional use for community resource facilities. So on November 6, 2025, the planning and zoning commission in agreement with staff's recommendation voted to recommend the city commission approved an exceptional use for community resource facility with urban infill
flexibility at 1109 French Avenue based on the request meeting both the standards for consideration of an exceptional use for community resource facility and the use being provided as a public benefit for free clinic. The recommendation for approval is subject to a development order with the
conditions in your report. Okay. >> Any questions? Uh the only question it says city attorney may or may not have reviewed the staff report you have reviewed. >> Okay. I I've been involved with it since it from the CBG phase.
>> That's just standard language. We make sure to leave it in there in the event anything >> I've noticed the rest of the standard language, but this one I don't remember it saying may or may not have reviewed. >> Yeah, I just noticed that too. Like all of them are saying that even a couple more. And I was like, >> yes, that that was originally established by Mr. Groot in the event something came before the commission and
he had not seen it yet. So, we just continue to carry it through. >> Okay. >> And I believe the applicant arrived early. >> Yeah, I noticed that too. >> Any questions of the applic? Yeah. I mean, it doesn't change anything, but like Eileen, how does like
I think we talked about this before, but being that it's it's a a building inside the plaza, how do you change setbacks when it's already a pre-existing building, you just don't, >> right? That's why we have the urban infill flexibility available. >> Okay. It's a mix of the flexibility
we're offering for the site layout, but also determining whether or not exercising that flexibility is the best for the use proposed. So, if it's a really high intense use and it's a really small site, but there are neighbors nearby, it may not be the best site. >> So, those are there different elements
that weigh into that flexible that flexibility and whether or not there's a public benefit to them being there. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions for staff? >> No. >> Okay. Um, this is a public hearing. The applicant, do you want to say anything? Yep.
>> Come on. I phrased that all wrong. So, >> we have the applicant come in. >> Oh, this >> Oh, this is way. >> Okay. So, I have >> I have to swear you in. >> So, let me find. Okay. So,
>> I just have to do the actual. >> Okay. So, raise raise your hand and state your name. Yeah. Um, sad. Okay. >> Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give in the matters now hearing will be the truth, full of truth, and nothing but the truth? So, you got >> I do.
>> Okay. >> Um, first of all, thank you very much for u you know getting to this point on this. Um, if there are any questions, I would like to answer. Uh but you know
whatever um the one uh upsetting thing is like I have been waiting for this for more for two years you know I had no idea that you know I would continue to pay utilities continue to pay maintenance and everything for 2 years
and still pay the rent at the other place. So but you know that's the story behind um I'm looking forward to it and everything planning and zoning has recommended u I was actually scared but you know uh it all works in our favor we
want police protection we want safety features we want vegetation vegetation is something I like to do even at my home so you know this is something uh you know they are asking for us it's nice and we we will do everything we need to do in to get the property in
compliance and uh like for any Sanford resident I think they should be happy because this place has been abandoned. >> This place was like very prone to homeless and other crime. So if abandoned like this now we are going to take it to a next step and make it a
beautiful place uh for anybody to visit and uh we like to be in compliance all the time. >> All right. Thank you. Any questions for applicant? >> No sir. All right. Thank you. Thank you. This is a public hearing. Does anyone else from the audience wish to speak to this item?
>> Thank you very much. >> Seeing no one, I'll go ahead and close the public hearing and bring the commission for action. Oh, wait. Did anybody have anything um exparte to declare? >> I have nothing to disclose. >> I have nothing. Okay. All right. Then can we get a motion or questions? I
would like to move to approve an exceptional use to establish a CRF with modified development standards using urban infill flexibility at this address. >> Second motion to second. Any further discussion? >> All in favor? I.
>> Any opposed? >> I passes 4 to one. That brings us to um approver the development or for um 1,090 East First Street vested rights determination. Mr. Mayor, members of the city
commission, while staff has no objections to the request, the land development regulations do not provide staff with the authority to grant this determination administratively. Accordingly, staff recommends the city commission review the vested rights request to determine whether the applicant has demonstrated an
entitlement for the continued use of the three recreational vehicles to be parked as transit lodging at 1090 East First Street based upon the information submitted. Okay, >> so the next one up as noted by Morart is
the bright request for parking and transient lodging use of three travel trailer recreational vehicles in an RMO zoned piece of property at 1090 East First Street. So the property locations you can see on
the map is um north side of East First Street. It's west of Melanville Avenue. It's zoned multif family residential office institutional and then it's waterfront downtown business district. The windfillment regulations
when it comes to travel trailers and RVs are not allowed and not permitted in any zoning district as a primary use unless specifically permitted. And the only place we allow that is in mobile home parks or PD zonings that would allow something like that. But the MR the SR2 zoning only is the only one that allows
that type of use. It's never allowed as an accessory building or an accessory dwelling unit and also as unless otherwise approved by some other method. It's allowed only as temporary construction offices or shelters for permitted activities and only within
minimum site areas, separation distances and accessways required for permitt permitted travel trailer sites as noted in the air at the paragraph above. So the LDRs do not authorize travel trailers or RVs as permitted accessory
or temporary uses on RMI property. Staff has no administrative authority to approve the request. The LDRs provide no mechanism for staff to grant it. And the only available approval process is the vested rights. So the authority to grant these vested rights rest with the city commission. And here's where the
applicant is is asserting their their vested rights. So in 1989, the city commission granted the first temporary RV approval with three RVs allowed for six months from October to May. From 1989 to 1998, the city commission
continued approving temporary six-month extensions annually. In 1998, the renewal authority was then delegated to the city manager who delegated it to the director of planning. The director of planning continued issuing temporary approvals from 1998 through 2010. when
in 2010 through 2024 the city manager's office re started reissuing them directly and the most recent renewal was issued in 2023 expiring 24 in February of 2025 the code updates formalized processes related to this type of
request as well as many others the administrative ad hoc approvals were no longer a valid path so in 2022 for some history they got electrical service permits for the RVs and then they got utility connection through the city sanitary sewer system which were
approved. They were installed. They were part of what they anticipated as a continued use on this property. So in September of 25, the applicant submitted their annual request. They sent it in as a zoning verification
letter through our citizen serve system. In October, we denied said request after discussing with them what it was they needed and how to go about moving forward. The applicant then appropriately filed for vested rights applications based on the history that I just showed you. So the regulations to
consider is property rights recognition for the storage and transient lodging in those three travel trailers. A request submitted under the LDR article section 8. If approved, the city commission may issue a special permit or development order. Approval requires finding that the applicant has demonstrated a
pre-existing vested right to maintain the specific use. Under the same article, a development order may be granted with or without conditions based on the evidence presented and >> and the development order is not transferable to another property or to
any other person or entity. So what the city commission is is charged with considering is whether the city acted or failed to act, whether that action or inaction came from an official with proper authority. So it's the initiation started with the city
commission in the 80s. So whether the applicant relied on the city's actions or inaction made a substantial goodfaith change in position or incurred significant expenses they did pull appropriate permits they did get the installation of of the necessary utility
services. So, evidence of investmentbacked expectations, money spent, obligations incurred, dates, commitments, whether the applicant performed legally permitted work or obtained permits and began improvements, whether denying the request could cause significant financial harm, contractual
liability, or prevent a reasonable return on investment, and whether any vested right applies to all or any part of the property. Any other relevant information under state and federal law should also be taken into consideration. So the burden of proof from the applicant, the applicant owned the
property at the time in the regulation changed. The use is it was lawful because the commission approved it at that time. The applicant has continuously owned the property since the change. The the comprehensive plan and LDRs have material adverse effects on the claimed right, meaning we
established a process that no longer allows them opportunity to do what they were doing. the applicant made a substantial dipface investment which they did and the applicant the applying for current regulations would cause unreasonable financial harm or destroy
the applicant's investment back expectations. So important limitations certain costs are not to be counted unrelated professional services normal business expenses most taxes those can't be considered in your your deliberation and then simply being in a particular zoning
district does not create a vested right. So the core question is would it be inevit would it be inequitable and unjust to deny the claimed right given the applicant's irreversible investmentbacked expectations. So staff has no objection to the request. However, the LDRs do not give
staff the authority to approve it. And staff recommends the city commission review the vested rights application and determine whether the applicant has demonstrated an entitlement to continue using three recreational vehicles as transient lodging at 1090 East First Street. Oh my. Um,
>> so let me add a little bit of context that I had to dig down to to make sure I understood. >> Okay. >> It was New Tribes Mission that started this in 1989. >> Yes. >> Which became Ethnos and the current owner is basically the property
management arm of that organization. So it's the same organization just with name changes and the same in uh intent >> ownership entity >> intent of use which is when they have volunteers come in to do to work with
them they have a place to stay and the representatives of applicant are here if you'all have questions. Commissioner Britney. >> Uh I had seen that trailer for years and I >> So if it's supposed to be temporary housing, it's literally been out there since Well, I'm pretty sure they've had
changes. >> It's seasonal. >> They come in just they have three hookups and depending on who's staying, who's working, they bring their RVs in and they leave, but it's seasonal and they come in for six months out of every year and they work with UPNOS 360. And
then when that expires, they ask for another renewal the following year. And they've been doing this since the 80s. >> So it is an expected approval that the city would have done except that in 2005, I mean 2025 last
year, we changed the regulations to remove some of these ad hoc approvals that are happening throughout the city to make sure that there's consistency, transparency, and fairness in our approval process. Mhm. >> So they're coming before you with the appropriate application, which is vested rights based on the fact that since
1989, they've been doing this same thing. >> The only reason it's considered temporary is because it is an RV. It is not permanent and it leaves 6 months at a time. >> Thank you for the clarification. Got it. >> Any questions? >> I've never seen it be a nuisance or or
anything like that. No issues. I have you had Well, I guess chief would be able to, but I don't ever recall it being any calls out there. I've just always noticed it when I was walking that there would be RVs back there, but that's neither here nor there. >> Don't they have RV parking at their other site?
>> They do. I think they have six. >> That is >> You have six spaces at the other at New Tribes Homes. >> You still have RV spaces. >> Okay. 12. >> Yeah. I thought it was over a dozen that we approved. um for hookup stuff. When
we did the PD for the residential next door, we made we made sure to um leave space for them to have I thought it was up to 17, >> but they may have only 12 sets for hookups or whatnot. >> All right. >> If we approve it based on the the vested
rights now, how often do they have to come back to the commission or do they go through the city manager from here on? And >> it's just a vested right to be able to come in for 6 months out of every year to have their um their vehicles there. Depends on how you want to set up the
approval development order, which I can work with the attorney to make sure. But you have to determine what their vested right is based on the financials that they put in to set up the meters, to set up any building permits, to set up utilities, and how long they've been getting this approval. So if it's three
units that they're viewing six months out of the year, if they had to rent an apartment, three apartments for six months at a set rate, I mean, these are investments that >> would cost them otherwise. >> Okay. >> But the development order will include should you approve it those parameters,
right? >> The number of RVs, the time of the year that they're or the extended period that they're allowed to use that space for that purpose. Attorney Green, do we need to have that information tonight in order to >> Well, I I believe it's already been been set forth. Okay. Just if you approve it,
if unless you want to change that. Okay. >> Um then that would be the language that's included in the development order. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. Let me get clarification on that. Um it's NRV can come for six months at a time or the well I mean three but okay
you know the six month is a applied to them individually and so NRV can be there for six months at a time or the site can be used for six months out of the year >> the way they've been receiving approvals is they come in just before winter let's
say Octoberish and November through May is when their RVs have been set up from everything that we can tell. So, it's 6 months seasonal for the so-called colder months. >> Okay. >> So, it's the site. >> Okay. So, the site can be used six months out.
>> All right. Okay. Any other questions for staff before I open the public hearing? >> I'll discuss it at another time. I have a question about the vested rights and how it applies to different properties and different circumstances, but I'm not
going to hold up this hearing right now. >> Okay. All right. This is a public hearing. Anyone from the audience wish to speak to this item? Okay. Then I'll close the public hearing. Bring it to commission for action.
We've been doing this since 1989. Nobody's really even noticed. It's >> I move to approve the uh development order special permit for three recreational vehicles to be parked and used as transient lodging at 1090 East First Street.
>> Second motion and second >> clarifies that for the six month durational period that was discussed. >> See that one I don't understand because what what happens if it changes you say they sometimes they're here during the colder months. >> No, that's when they've always asked the the Okay. So vested rights is based on what they've always been doing. Mhm.
>> Okay. >> So, if they've always been coming from November to May, that would be what you're approving. November to May in perpetuity. >> So, if they happen to come in February? >> No, they can come any time between November and May. >> Between November and May. Okay.
>> All right. So, how do I need to clarify that? Just say for the six months. >> Yeah, you you've clarified it. Okay, >> commissioner. You've clarified. >> All right. So, that was my motion. >> All right. Second motion to second. Any further discussion? >> All in favor? I
>> any any opposed? Okay. Pass unity. This brings us to our next vested rights so we get more practice on it. >> Um from Mory Enterprises. >> Yes. Mr. Mayor, members of city commission. City staff recommends the city commissioner review the vested
rights request to determine if a applicant has demonstrated an entitlement to the daycare facility being vested rights at project address 1611 and 1701 Murphy Drive based on the information submitted.
>> Um I do believe the applicant has a presentation as well. However, I believe that it's probably then your it's a little better to have from staff to hear what staff was able to put together before inviting the applicant if you're okay with that.
>> Okay. So, the next one before you is a vested rights request to reestablish a daycare facility in an MR2 zoning on Murthy Drive in the 1600 and 1700 block. So, All right. So, some general property
information. There's two parcels involved in this request. One's about 39 acre. The other one is.18. Um, so the site has two existing buildings. One's about 4,500 square feet. One's just shy of 3,000 and it's
affordable. The zoning is multif family residential. In the future lane use is MBR15, which is a medium density residential. The applicant is Murphy Enterprises. So, I'll keep going until Chris fixes that. So, the land development
regulation says that the properties zoned MR2 with the future land use designation of MBR15. So under schedule B, a daycare facility serving six or more individuals is permitted in MR2 only as an accessory use to a residential complex or residential
development. So a standalone daycare facility in an MR2 requires conditional use approval. So, some history, the historical aerial image imagery, which all of these pictures are larger and in your packet,
but I kind of put some in here just to show on the slides that these are some of the pieces of information that the applicant was able to provide to us to show that this history is here. So, there's historical aerial imagery from 1948. It shows the daycare facilities in operation as early as the 1940s.
Additional evidence includes a 1967 class photograph, letters from the longtime neighbors, community leaders confirming the site's long-standing use as a daycare and early learning center. And the earliest recorded permits for non-residential use at 1611 Murthy date
back to September 15th, 1959 and March of 1982, where they did the original kindergarten edition and daycare editions on this building. So, and these little cards in the lower right are really, really, really old permit cards.
So, all right. So, we've got the applicant documentation indicates that the daycare was established prior to the adoption of the LDRs and functioned as legal non-conforming use until the early 1920 until early 2020. The use lost its legal
non-conforming status after operation ceased for more than six months. The applicant cites CO 19 related executive orders as limiting the ability to continue or restart operations during that period. The applicant reports continued utility payments and property improvements during this closure. On
June 24, 2025, the applicant met with staff to discuss reestablishing the daycare use and staff advised the route to go with the conditional use approval. Following further discussion, staff identified that if the applicant chose, they could pursue a vest of rights determination to seek the desired land
use entitlement. The applicant subsequently submitted the vest of rights application and the applicant is requesting that the city acknowledge property rights allowing the continued use of the site as a daycare facility. So regulations to consider the property rights recognition for a pre-existing
daycare in number two requested submittal under section 8 of article 4. If approved, the city commission may issue the special permit or development order. Approval requires finding that the applicant has demonstrated a pre-existing vested right to maintain a
specific use or level of development. Under article 4, section 8B, a development order may be granted with or without conditions based on the evidence presented, and the development order is not transferable to another property or person or entity.
So what the city commission must consider in this is whether the city acted or failed to act. Whether the applicant relied on the city's action or inaction and made a substantial good change in position or incurred significant expenses. Evidence of investmentbacked expectations. Whether
the applicant performed legally performitted work or obtained permits. Whether denying this request would cause significant financial harm, contractual liability, prevent reasonable return on investment. whether any vested right applies to all or any part of the
property and any other relevant information under state or federal law. So the burden of proof ownership of the time of change the applicant owned and legally operated the property when the regulation changed and the use was permitted by default at that time. So because it
was 1950s regulations were a little different than they are today obvious obviously. So the applicant has owned the property continuously since the regulation changed. Uh current comprehensive plan or LDR materials and adversely
affect the claimed right. So material adverse effect appears to exist. Investment back change in position. The applicant made a substantial good faith investment back change based on a city action or omission. So they continued to operate a daycare. We issued permits.
They they incurred expense. they've continued to operate. Would there be financial harm or loss of expectation? Applying the current regulations would cause unreasonable financial harm or destroy the applicant's investment back expectations. So, this is what the applicant has submitted as they're
approved. So, important limitations that certain costs cannot be counted and simply being in a particular zoning does not create a vested right. As with our first vested rights this evening, would it be inequitable and unjust to deny the claim right the claimed right given the
applicant's irreversible investment back expectations? So that's the the question before the commission. So staff does not object to the request. However, the LDRs do not give staff the authority to approve it as the non-conforming business has been out of operation for over six months. So if you
note from the history, it's actually been close to five or six years since they stopped operating during COVID. And I believe that they'll be able to explain to you some of the history. And there is some history in your your staff report regarding what they've noted as
extenduating circumstances preventing them from reopening. But because it has been such an extended period of time, staff has no ability to reconsider this use under normal permitted um staff
authority. >> So staff recommends the city commission review the request determine if the applicant has demonstrated an entitlement and take an action based on what's before you. >> So >> okay. All right. Any questions for staff
before we bring up that? or wait to the presentation. >> Okay. And then I have request from Sally Sherman. Are you giving the presentation? >> Good evening. Sally Sherman representing the applicant, the Murphy family. Um, my
address is uh 20 Orange Avenue uh Orlando, Florida 32801. Um, I thank the staff for its presentation. I'm going to forego my presentation because they used quite a bit of what I submitted in December. So,
there's no use to me um going through it. Um, I asked that the board go on and consider the approval of the vested rights, reestablishing the vested rights along with I believe I was told we need to ask for a um approval of a deadline
override as well because of the time period. >> So, your application is near expiration. I said >> your planning manager told me that I needed to do it because the closure because of the
>> interrupted operations time period. >> Yeah, that's what the six month Okay. So, I think that's what you're talking about. >> But I'm here to answer any questions. Um I know that it was indicated that yes the op the operation for the daycare facility they
operated for over 75 years without any interruption and then COVID hit. There were a number of executive orders issued by the state of Florida with regard to specifically daycarees. They
shut down dayc carees completely. Then they did another order, executive order extending the closure. Another executive order opening it with limited requirements and those well were
really honest requirements because they required spacing and distance with the kids. It was it was it was >> it was impossible >> impossible. So all this time, especially single, what I'll call mom and pop own
facilities, they were not able to recoup from this. And the Murphy's have been working with the city since I would say 2020 to get this daycare back up and running, approved. and um I was asked to
come in and provide some assistance and has worked with staff and we've brought it to fruition to come to you tonight to ask for your approval. And in closing, I would say that, you know, this property has stayed in this family for
generations. It's not new. They've owned it. They've operated it. It's um it created a sense of identity and belonging for the Goldsboro community. As a native of Sanford, this was one of the few places that as most of the
property owners and homeowners in the Goldsboro community and some of the other surrounding areas supported our agricultural community. That's where they took their kids for care. And I'm asking that you approve this so that if
Murthy's can continue their legacy, >> right? Any questions throughout? Okay. Thank you. Okay. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone else in the audience wishes to speak to this item? Okay. Seeing no one will close the public hearing. Bring the commission for action.
>> I move to Well, this district got it. >> I move to approve the development order for daycare facility at 1611 and 1701 Murphy Drive. Second motion to second. Any further discussion? >> Just appreciate all of the research and the work and the effort they've put into
to put together this request. Uh impressive to me and I totally get the co issue. So >> I I'm just curious. Uh we've been told uh other sites and other businesses around the city uh that have been closed for six months, they have to bring in a
new site plan and update landscaping. I I don't see anything about that here. >> And those would be required through the conditional use process that if that was the application they submitted because that is the alternate application. They have chosen to see if the city commission will approve vested rights
based on the long-standing history of this operation at this location. If the city chooses to like if the commission chooses to deny the vested rights for any reason um and determine that they have not proven that they have a vested right or that based on the duration of
closure whatever the case may be then they have the opportunity to go back through conditional use to reestablish the use and that's when all of those elements would be triggered. >> All right. Any further discussion? No. >> All in favor? Any opposed?
>> Passes unanimously. >> Brings us to >> Mr. Mayor, I neglected to recognize the former deputy county manager of Felic County. >> Hi, Sally. >> Yeah, Sally Sherman is former county. >> Oh, hello.
>> Sally and I worked together years ago to bring together a a program for Semino County, a youth build program. She taught me that no meeting should last longer than an hour. >> Is that why this was so thorough, Sally?
>> Okay. So, um, consider the appeal of historic preservation for denial versus official. So, we need to see if anybody has anything to declare. >> I have nothing new to declare, mayor. >> Anybody else? Nothing here.
>> I have nothing new. Okay, Mr. Mr. Mayor, members of city commission, given the outstanding building permit deficiencies outlined in the report and the likelihood that any modifications to the structural plans will require sub resubmitt and redesign on the current building code, staff finds that the
incremental revisions are no longer sufficient to evaluate the project and recommend denial of the appeal and that the city commission uphold the historic preservation board's denial development order for the certificate of appropriateness. Right.
>> Okay. So, um, Miss Scoffield and I are here to present a continued version of the PowerPoint. So, we've removed most of everything that was in the original PowerPoint. If you need to go back to it, we can pull it. But at this point, we're presenting
to you what has happened since the last commission meeting, changes, modifications, and what is before you now. So, um, the appeal of the Historic Preservation Board action, denial of a certificate of appropriateness at 101 East First Street, it was presented to
the city commission at November 10th meeting last year, and then the applicant requested a continuation to this meeting to try to work with staff to put together a new package. So, the project information and the site location remain the same. It's a very
prominent building, corner of Fen Park and um the overview it's 101 East First Street. It's owner is Ocean View Sanford Condo Association and Big Bubba Investments. The applicant is Steven Hebner. He's from Formworks
Architecture. The request is the appeal to appeal the denial of the HPB certificate of appropriateness. And then the action that's to be taken today is to either uphold or overturn the denial. And the project overview is the proposed alterations and new
construction to add a stair tower and elevator to an existing historic building. So the action from November 10th, the applicant presented the appeal to the city commission. The presentation and discussion identified inconsistencies and incomplete information and the
appeal was continued by the city commission and the applicant was directed to work with staff and submit consistent plans of materials and finished details. So the activity following the November 10th meeting, the staff provided a list of information required for commission
review to the applicant on November 20th, 2025. The applicant provided revised plans with a new pump house and tower design and requested a courtesy review on November 30th, 2025 to address incomplete and inconsistent submittal
information. An in-person discussion with the owner, the applicant and staff was held to detail the inconsistency inconsistencies in the outstanding items and that was done on December 3rd, 2025. So, a revised submission that was a different design was then received by
staff on December 15th. So, the new submitt package, well, that's really tiny up there. The new submitt package, they were provided the requested requirements that we needed to proceed with review,
including things that were plans with dimensions that could be read in an 11 by17 format. The materials had to all be depicted. The elevation drawings with consistent height of tower. The north elevation with the door placement, the trim, the materials, the style, the
details of the intersection of connector panels to the historic structure. Details showing the trim, the materials, the tower openings on the south elevation, brick product sample brochures, dimensions and profiles of the cornis, paint colors, product references, and roof materials were all
requested of them in a bulleted list to try and get us over the finish line for this project. So the staff then on the right side of the table which is in your staff report it identifies that um the plans with the dimensions some of the format the
materials they're depicted yes but only partially the elevation drawings with consistent height of tower was corrected. It now does show seven stories on all elevations. The north elevation with the door placement trim materials and style was
submitted but incomplete. There's no to door or trim details. The details of the intersection and the connector panels to the historic structure has been provided. The details showing trim and material on the tower openings on the south elevation was provided. It's a
single brick rollock bottom sill and then the brick product or sample brochures were not provided. The dimensions and profiles of the corners have not been provided. The paint colors and product references have not been provided although indicated verbally. black and gray to match the rear wall
and then roof materials roof materials were also not provided. So the status of the current COA applications all COA approvals at this address have expired. No COAs were issued for this scope of work or design.
This scope of work being the pump house, the tower and the catwalk, the catwalk. So the HPB approval, I'm sorry, the HPB review April 2025 for the tower with the attached pump house and cap with the stucco panels was continued to May and
June and August in meetings to try to receive more information that was complete and consistent and plans that they could take action on. So the applicant requested a denial at that August meeting. The revised design submitted on 1215 is a completely new
design that has never been reviewed by the Historic Preservation Board. So, building permit status. Building permit BC23858 was a change of use permit submitted. It was for interior only. It calls that out
specifically on the label of the permit. It was issued on 126 of 2023 and based on recent approvals and inspections, it has been um extended to an expiration of February 14, 2026.
So that was I believe a plumbing approval in August. They got um an inspection and it was approved. So that extends out the expiration date each each approved um inspection. So the building permit
status for the remainder is building it's BC2485. It's the adjacent elevator, the stair tower. It was submitted on March 30th of 2025. The current status says that it's under review, but it has comments and corrections. Now there's a series of
comments and corrections. I believe they're in your staff report. However, we just called out the relevant ones on the PowerPoint because it would have been a few pages of PowerPoint. So, the COA submitt is required. The revised stair tower and pumphouse submitt is
required. And why this is because in part there's a conflict with the development plans that are noted different than the plans that were submitted for the pump house and the tower. and the demolished pump house is still shown on the plans that are part of the
building permit BC25485. Then the revised structural plans for outside stairs and catwalks resubmitt are also required. Fire code identified a requirement for new outside stairs of more than 36 feet above the finished grade have to have a minimum 4 foot high
opaque visual obstruction that's not depicted in their current plans which shows a 42-in guard. So the building official notes that it is a private provider audit review but the comments from all other city departments must be answered. If the
comments require revisions of the plans for the stair tower, the plans will be required to be updated to current code. So all revisions will first be reviewed by the private provider. For revisions, the stair tower shall be a separate set of plans from the apartment renovations.
Due to the height of the stair tower, a threshold plan is required and the Florida statute was called out as to identify what makes that a requirement. So, in your packet as well as on the screen, we have a series of different
elevations. I'm going to kind of go through the elevations and then I assume there'll be questions later in which I will hand it over to my esteemed colleague Scoffield to answer your questions about the historic preservation elements from schedule S. But this is the revised plans that were
received on 1215 2025. And then >> are those not what's in our packet? >> These are what are in your packet. Is the color just off or >> No, they on the other. >> We got ones that have yellow, too.
>> Okay, I found them. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I've been staring at the wrong plans trying to figure things out. >> Okay. So, as you I mean, generally, you can see there's the proposed westside elevation on this this slide has the
proposed westside elevation. So it's 1 through 7. It is a sevenstory tall stucco tower. Um the south elevation has
some openings. No real details as to surround some of the the openings. No call outs. So, um, additional details, I guess. So, each of these
sheets, you can see the elevations just kind of call out what you're seeing before you. It's what's going to be before you is determining whether or not this is compatible with the existing architectural structure. So, schedule S
was reassessed. >> Oh, I'm moving. Okay. So, schedule as applied um to the 1215 revision. So, S22, a property shall be used for its historic purpose or be placed in new use that requires minimal
change to the defining characters of the building and in site and environment. So, the residential conversion requires life safety upgrades, but design should minimize visual impact. The proposed tower exceeds the height of the historic building, making it the tallest in the district. A less intrusive design such
as a budding elevator tower would be better aligned with preservation standards and a prominent location height and design impacts the historic district environment overall. Okay. So the historic character of a property shall be retained and preserved. The removal of historic
materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize a property shall be avoided. The window and door patterns are the character defining elements for the rear of the historic building. The front and west facade are constructed with limestone and brick and features columns a well substantial a
substantial well- definfined cornice and brick detailing. Detail was provided on how the catwalks would attach to historic structure and connect to existing doors to minimally impact historic structure. So S23, new additions, exterior alterations, or related new construction
shall not destroy historic materials that characterize the property. The word shall be differentiated from the old and shall be compatible with the massing size, scale, and architectural features to protect the historic integrity of the property and its environment. So clearly
differentiated from the historic building, the tower lacks material changes, relief, ornamentation, and pedestrian level details. The brick roll lock under the south elevation openings is the only ornamentation on the sevenstory
stucco structure. The pump house section is brick relating to the upper floors of the historic building but no design relation to the elevator stair tower or ground level historic building. The stuckle wall panels replace open rail catwalks to meet fire code. The brick product sample
brochure is not provided and the applicant lacks details regarding cornises, profile, roof, roof materials, paint colors, doors and door trim. The scope of work could be addressed in a minor review COA. So the comprehensive plan summary
remains the same. The proposal fails to provide that it meets the objectives to protect the downtown waterfront district and historic resources. the potential adverse impacts on historic district not adequately addressed in this submitt and the design fails to provide evidence
that it aligns with historic preservation goals or future laneous priorities. So in summary, the staff recommends that the city commission first determine whether the proposed design and appearance are acceptable with the understanding that if the design is
approved, the applicant will be required to submit revised construction drawings and obtain all necessary building permits before proceeding. There are a few minor details still unresolved and some of them may be handled through a minor COA. However, we
can't determine that until the commission decides if what is presented as the overall look and design is the direction the city wants for this new addition. So, the city commission must decide whether to overturn the denial and approve the plans with conditions, including how any minor COA items should
be handled or uphold the denial development order, which would require the applicant to submit a full architectural plan set for a new certificate of appropriateness, review, and building permit processing. So the recommendation we have three
alternatives to present depending on how the commission wants to move forward with the appeal. So alternative one is to uphold the HPV denial staff's recommendation. So significant building permit deficiencies remain unresolved.
Structural changes will require full resubmitt under current building code. The applicant has not provided complete or fully coordinated plans and staff cannot evaluate schedule S compliance or historic district compatibility
as presented. So the second is to continue the appeal which was the action taken at the last commission meeting. The commission may choose to allow the applicant another opportunity. The applicant must submit a complete coordinated resubmitt and submitt must include full architectural drawings
required for a building permit, renderings that match the construction plans, sufficient details for schedule S and preservation review and then resolution of inconsistencies and missing specifications. The third alternative is to overturn the
denial and approve with conditions. So if the commission chooses to overturn the HPV denial, they would approve the overall design concept establishing the aesthetic direction that staff should take. Direct staff to complete the remaining
minor items through a minor COA review. The applicant must provide the required detailing, material specifications, corrective drawings, and need for staff to complete those that are needed for staff to complete those minor reviews. and then any architectural changes beyond the minor COA scope would still
require additional plans, submittals or permits. So if the commission chooses this option, staff recommends establishing a clear deadline for the applicant to submit the required detailed drawings and materials. If the applicant does not meet that deadline, the approval would lapse and the project
would return to a full COA review. >> Thank you. >> Okay, questions for staff. Can you put the recommendations back on the screen just so we can >> Yeah. Do you want alternative one, two, or three by itself? >> Put one and two up so we can just kind of look at that for a bit.
>> Okay. I assume that through you're probably going to end up on the elevations. So, >> that's where we're going to get back to. >> Okay. So in your alternative two where you ask for the full architectural drawing
required for the building permit, doesn't it make sense to wait until there's a CFA approval so they know what they have to draw? >> No, this >> Yes, the answer is yes to that. But I think >> and that's the normal process, right?
You get your >> what it's going to look like and then you go do your drawing, >> right? Okay. >> But when we should have a full concept of what that is. For instance, the entire back of the building has never been depicted in these plans. >> The what? >> The entire rear of the building. We just
see a portion of it and what's beyond the tower is never depicted. So a more complete set of at least concepts would be required. So that the picture on the right is just the bottom part of the picture on the left,
>> right? Just a detail of the lower >> and the yellow brick part is just the pump house. >> It's just the pump house, the three sides of the pump house. >> So there's not any actual brick on the tower. It's just on the pump house that's in front of the tower. The only
other brick is there is kind of like a a sill a rollock sill of brick at each of the openings on the upper stories. But that would be a very minimal design. >> Is that >> the back of the existing building
doesn't have any brick though, right? >> No. >> Is that the sill you're talking about? >> Yes. >> Okay. So those openings on the south elevation are the only design elements that's breaking up this sevenstory structure.
The most prominent side on Park Avenue, there's nothing at all other than a Stuckco tower. And the same is true on the east side. So they haven't presented any horizontal elements to break up that massing, any change of materials. Um this is
different from what you saw before where there was um a material for the pump house that related to the first floor of the building and then that was extended a couple stories up on the tower at least on the one side but all that has now
been uh removed from the design. >> And Julie or I don't know Arlene um just so I'm correct you're saying the new information that we received HPB has not received it. No, that no this is a design that's not been was never presented to them.
Okay. So, I wish I was like a designer or something. I'm not sure if this is where Commissioner Britain was headed, but the back of the building now is Stuckco with some windows and doors and a fire
escape. >> Okay. So, if I'm sitting there and now we build this and I'm looking at it in the same direction, instead of seeing doors and fire escape, I just see a blank wall. >> Correct.
>> Right. So basically there would just be a big blank wall here. >> I think some of the windows on the left side would be still in view. >> Right. So we'd see this but and I'm guessing from about where the fire escape is over. I don't know exactly,
but somewhere in there I'm going to see a blank wall which Okay. But then I turn and look at it from Park Avenue. And from Park Avenue, I'm seeing
Can you go to the actual building? >> Actually, the picture you were just on >> there. So, I'm seeing this on Park Avenue. And now you can go to the one. And so I see this brick here, the limestone here, but I just see a solid
blank wall there. >> To me, that's the disturbing. >> That's what would disturb me about the view, I think. And again, I'm not a a designer. >> I agree with you, mayor, on that. Um, I don't,
again, this hasn't even been presented to the the the experts that we put on here, the um the historic preservation board, but it would make sense for the facade to match on Park Avenue and then not on Second Street and then Magnolia
because you there's three sides to this thing. Um, which means the side of uh where you would see it from Magnolia Avenue. um would need to be the same as the back, but I'm I'm I'm not an expert in it. What would you recommend?
>> Generally, when we have a material, we that turns we want it to turn the corner at least a little a few feet or in some proportion that makes sense. >> Okay. So, what's in my packet is drawing one,
which has red brick. >> That was an earlier submitt. >> Okay. Okay. So, I'm looking at the view from Park Avenue and it looks like the proper word for what's the proper
word for this? Banding. >> That's banding. And that's cornice. >> That's >> Can we get along? >> Yes. >> Okay. So on the one what's drawing one it looks
like this is matched here and this is matched here and this is matched here but it doesn't go as big above it. >> Those >> is that what you're talking about? Those were the original
>> wall details that >> something to break up the a horizontal element to break up the >> vertical massing there. >> And that that element by itself to me seems easy
to Okay. And so is that the type of thing you're saying could be a minor review if this moves forward? I want to say no because I think that that's really um defining the overall
design for this. It's not a detail like a window trim or a a door or something like that. >> Okay. >> And I think you're looking at the original building plan submitt which also that was before the need to change the >> Yeah, it's got railing,
>> right? And have the separate pump house is in that as well. So that was an earlier version. >> I just keyed in on it because it had the banding, >> right? >> Which I thought was what you were asking about. >> The new proposed existing structure is
of course we know it's all different, but it's something that I I don't understand if we're showing seven floors, right? The seven floor seems like it goes above the existing roof. When the original plan, where you see it in red, it seems to match out and it stops at the
seventh floor. But on this one, you see how it goes above, >> right? That's part of the corrections when we talked about the problem with inconsistency beforeh >> is that it's always intended to be able to access the roof and be taller than the building, but it wasn't always drawn
that to show that. >> So, the one that's flush with the roof is incorrect is basically what it Since I'm not a architect or an engineer either, I have kind of a higher question of
have you been asked for certain things more than once or twice or three times and why are we still where we are now? And what concerns me is as much as I want this to go forward, is this going to be a continuous problem throughout the process? We're just
failing, failing, failing. Um I I want to get this done right, but I don't know. It feels like uh somebody's bitten off more than he can chew or he's not getting the right help. Um,
I don't know there's much we can do about that, but this just makes me nervous. I don't want to have to make the applicant start all the way over um because that's it's a big investment into this the city of Sanford period. I agree with that. I'm just trying to
figure out like I mean but the proof is in the I mean it's Could we go back one more time to the recommendations for the commission? Sorry, it makes sense what you were saying about the revised submitt package and
what it means. uh and these things are doable. But I'm stuck on um where how do we uphold the denial of HPB when there's new information that HPB hasn't even
seen? I I would prefer not to do denial. Um you know the project has been started. We are where we are. Um so I would like to do what is possible to move it forward. My problem
is again we're sitting here trying to be HPB and saying oh well we should have this kind of band here but I don't know what it would really look like or how you would actually do it or what it would look like but
somebody might and but I'm also concerned with asking for full AR back to maybe I just don't understand going back and saying we want a full set out of architectural drawings before we have an agreement on
what's going to be drawn. So, I'm still stuck on that. >> Well, I think they could be conceptual, but it really isn't that much complicated of a building. >> So, you just want the architecture. >> So, why are we struggling with getting
what we're asking for? >> Okay. So, all right. So you want architectural drawing of the tower? >> Yes. >> That's the only one we're actually talking about. >> Well, and you know the pump house attached to Yeah, we're not concerned about the interior >> because the interior is already permitted. Okay.
>> So you're detailed middle page >> there. There there's a procedural issue here. and the procedural. >> Let me step back for a moment because at the last meeting I I was charged with assisting and serving as a liaison in
this to get us to the finish line and so I just want to give a background as to how that went. >> Yes, please. >> So, um I made myself available to have a meeting to address these issues. the owner decided he did not want his
attorney to be present or that he wanted the meeting scheduled at a time when his attorney was not available. I guess to to to push this forward. So that took me out of the picture. Um so my last
conversation with his attorneys that she's no longer representing the applicant. Um I would just suggest to the deis that there have been a multitude of opportunities um whether you call them architectural
drawings or not to get a concept of what this project is going to be. I don't know if there's issues with the elevator like does the elevator go to the seventh floor? Does it? It does. Okay. But so there were some
issues with the elevator. the COAs have now expired. Um so while I understand that it is the intent or desire not to throw the wrench, I don't want the days to feel as though you're throwing the wrench um in this process. Uh I don't
see how you vote on a design concept that HPV has never seen yet. Um, I do not see procedurally with the COAs that have expired and a new drawings being presented. Um,
so those are the legal issues. I don't tell you how to vote. I'm just telling you what the legal issues are, the procedure issues here that that I see. >> What what CFAs were approved and have expired? Um there was approval for um
additional windows on the east elevation on the there's a kind of a shorter portion of the building that you really can't see >> that would be added there. There was um some modifications to the rear windows for fire code. Um
there was earlier approval for the demolition of the pump house and there was an earlier design where the pump house was still in place and there was a different separate tower design but that was long expired.
>> Okay. All right. So any more questions for staff or are we ready to hear from the applicant? Uh, go ahead. I had a question on one of the slides, but I don't remember what slide it was, but it was saying that staff did
not review or could not review um or make recommendation on schedule S. And I didn't understand how what that meant. Nope. No, I think it may have been on one of the
recommendations, but it was it was saying staff cannot evaluate schedule S compliance or historic district compatibility. I didn't understand that. Why can't staff evaluate schedule A? >> Because it's incomplete.
>> It's incomplete. >> Okay. staff, given where we are and your recommendation that we continue this with the submittal package, including everything you've detailed here, how are you feeling confidence-wise
that this is these are all doable just from your perspective? Well, this last submitt was more complete than others that we had, but the recoccurring issue is when it may be more complete in another way with the design changes. Um,
you know, I would prefer this a complete package to come back to HPB, which is they were willing and wanted to continue to work with the applicant >> and would have done so, but the applicant, you know, requested that it be denied.
>> Yeah. I just don't I'm trying to get the feeling of will we get a complete package after all of this or is it going to be this is almost right but we have to continue it again and another meeting goes by and there's something else missing. Um >> wait the applicant I think we talked
about this the last time. I'm so sorry. Go ahead. I did not. You go right ahead. >> I was done. The applicant uh wants the commission to deny or wanted HPB to deny? >> HPB to deny it >> so that they could come to the commissions. >> Yeah. We asked for them to >> Yes.
>> Okay. Let's go ahead and have the applicant come up. >> My name is Steve. >> All right. So, a few things I noticed. So they u story high and like the four stories
and we were approved for some this is something that was built over 100 years ago as a sixtory building. So for them to bring this, it just shows you that they're not really like trying to help.
>> Who wait who's they and what are they bringing? >> When they when they when they said that we're not complant with schedule S and schedule S says that the highest of any building you build in downtown Stanford is only four stories high and this is
six or seven. So you're bringing something negative uh that we're not But everybody knows the building. >> Okay. And we're here discussing a seventory tower. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, we we sat down, had a great meeting, you know, we thought we actually wore a
pool three and a half years ago on this exact sub that you see and the house was not demolished at the time. So when we sat down with our and and Julie a few weeks ago uh we said like
let's just make it simple let's just do the pump house bring it back the way it was it was the brick and match the brick of the building and then we were approved three and a half years ago with HPV on this stuckle sixtory sevenstory
building that you see from all the sides we actually know Last time when I was telling you know the the commissioners and the mayor that we've had approved plans. So we go and apply for a building. Okay. So we submit all the
plans. Day one we knew that we needed an exterior staircase and an elevator. So we submitted those plans. We were under the building department for probably 19 months. Then we went in the third party.
So third party actually we have approved architectural plans and engineering plans. So >> that that have a a CFA. >> Yeah. But very approved three and a half years
ago. It was May 22nd. >> But wasn't that interior though? >> No, that was the elevator itself. those earlier COAs that have expired related to those building permit plans that we talked to that had >> different elements in them.
>> The only element is that the pump house was demolished and then we're building it back. That's the only element. If you got pushed a little to the left, a little to the right, it is still a pump house. The whole elevator shaft is 9
by9. 19 by 19 is the elevator and 4 foot on the left, 4 foot on the right, and 4 foot in the rear for a staircase to go up on the exterior. And that's all was, you know, asked by the fire. I've I've
seen people that were interested in this building and they told me, "Oh, no, we have to run away because they didn't want us to use the interior elevator, the existing elevator because it wasn't ADA compliant." And then they said that we needed an exterior staircase
regardless because of presentation. So you know we can show approved field plans with universal engineering and science sheets. Where is >> But where is the approved C of A that
you say HPB said you could build just a flat >> stuckco May 22nd not 2022 and with all due respect that's the problem here like why do we even have this fire what's going to happen to the
design that we get approved for three years ago you know we're not you know there's an ele element that got introduced here. We're thinking this with engineers. We're thinking this with the building department. We're thinking this with the fire marshal people far
more like basically HP is basically like you're showing them a concept of what things can look like. But then the you know the you know the actual work in actual engineering is with the building department or in our uh in our case with
a third party uh engineering which the city uses anyway and we have a group we have to see on our elevator designs and and and >> our structural engineer is actually a
threshold inspector as well. So it it actually meets all the requirements because it's more than four feet, four stories high. This has been kind of like taking forever and and the reason why I came in front of you guys because I could reason
with you. I couldn't reason with HB. And you tell me why me three and a half years ago and all of a sudden I am just like everything I say continues. They didn't want to give me den
and that's because it was all mistake in the beginning because when I got I got a per a building permit to demolish the pump I was looked at the guy that works without a permit that was issued in
error to to demolish the pump you know you guys have spent over $100,000 to connect us with the sewer line you know I have installed, you know, two recent instructors for the
first floor in, you know, trying to help everybody, trying to get this building up and running. You know, this isn't anything big that I couldn't chew on. With all due respect, Commissioner, you know, let me work. You know, I have the
material on site since March of last year. I have paid 70% of the project of the elevator, the elevator for three and a half years ago. >> Yeah. And >> it's just like the process takes forever. Every time you you pass a hole,
they catch you back. Oh, this expired. You got to go in front of this, this expired, you got to go in front of that. You know, you guys were like very gracious today accept, you know, giving everybody, you know, a leeway here, a
leeway there. I am urging you to, you know, approve me if there's anything. I was even thinking like, you know, uh, there's a new building that's right next to the coffee shop on Second Street, uh, that just came up and they put like those veneer bricks. Would that
something that would be more aesthetic for you? Because you guys live here. You guys, you know, you're the law maker. So, would that something be acceptable for you? So if if this side is brick veneer that matches the building,
>> I'm willing to do whatever you guys want me to do, but we we sat down. We thought we, you know, answered all their questions, you know, >> and I don't think >> for the bricks. >> Yeah, there's I don't question what you have done. I I appreciate every
everything you've done and all the work you've put into it. And again, I'm not the engineer here, but I look at what our experts say we still need from you. And that's my concern is is is there an issue with providing full architectural plans, elevations, accurate,
consistently scaled drawings, material specifications, and finish schedules, door, window, and trim details, roof material, and cornice profile renderings that accurately reflect the proposed construction. And that's just one section here. So is there what's the
issue with doing that? Why haven't you done that already? >> We we've sat down with them and we we figured out there was a couple of inconsistencies and we we reflected all that. Everything else we have approved plan. You know what? We're going to have to if you guys approve us, we're going
to go to the building department or our third uh uh third party engineering firm that does our plan review and we're going to tell you all that stuff. This isn't we're not going to production tomorrow. people who get approval for that. >> Well, I get that. But I think you might
appreciate the fact that for whatever reason, this particular project has taken a long time and seems to include >> more back and forth when you are asked for things and and we just don't get them. By the way, a struct is an
approved material for schedule class and we even discuss colors and I said like I'm open for whatever they suggested gray and I love gray. Well, we can just build we can paint all the stuckle gray >> and we have different shades of gray. >> You think the mayor had something to say
>> on the um >> Okay, >> so we had we had a great meeting and then I emailed her emailed her and like, hey, we want to make sure that you're happy with those, but we didn't get a response
back, you know? So, it's not like we're not like trying to, you know, I told him, I I want your blessings from day one. I'm like, whatever you guys want me to do, I'll do it. >> Mr. Muhammed, I agree with what Commissioner Thomas was saying and I wanted to know if you could clearly
answer that. Why can't we just get the full set of plans? Um, we go back and forth of what was submitted, what wasn't submitted, and then we have the attachments, but I don't see anything from May 22nd show of the C coa. But never mind that. Exactly what she said.
Why can't we just get your full architectural plans and all of the things that she listed? Why is there a problem of not just presenting that to staff and then we can move forward? We >> And that's just one of the four items listed. >> Architectural plans. >> Okay, wait. So, the signed and sealed
architectural plan for your elevator and air tower, >> which CFA application do they match? >> I can't remember, but it was it was the May 22nd, 2022. >> Okay. So, the signed and sealed plans
that you have are for a different design that we are now talking about. >> So, wait. So if we were to approve it, how could you go build that? You would not be building what was approved. >> I know. But you guys, what they're doing
today is is you basically taking over HP after >> we were we were forced into that. Yeah, >> exactly. But after H that's due process. That's enough for it to come in front of you. It's not like I'm forcing my way into trying to see. It was due process.
That's just what you know what I was told. This is the stuff. So, it's not I'm coming here trying to, you know, to see somebody. I I paid money for a real application. Anyway, what I'm trying to tell you is normally like if you're from
from, you know, from the ground up, you're coming in, you go to HPV, you're going to build something in historic district, they approve the you that you that you design for them, and then basically once you approve, then you submit all your architectural plans, >> right?
>> So, HPD is basically looking looking at material but they're not looking at engineering. >> Exactly. But we have engineering also. But when we went back so when you have an expired you know ID and you go back and then they tell like oh no you need to take this test oh you need to take
this test or you need to take this test. That's what happened to us. We had an expired plan from three and a half years ago and when we came in in front of HPV they said no this is not consistent. Oh change this. So we change change this. So we change. My problem is that I'm
trying to accommodate everybody that wants to change something and now they take me back to oh well your approved plans are now different than the plans that so like what do you want me to do I'm trying to I'm trying to please somebody from here and then it's not the end of the world at the end of the world
at the end of the day we're going to the building department to to issue the actual fun >> Julie could you tell us or Eileen I'm pretty sure you got it there what was approved on May 22nd 2022 too. >> Um, it looks to me like I thought I
pulled it up. >> Okay. >> Um, and I can't find the minutes saying what was discussed were approved. I can see the application. The staircase is open railing back and forth between the building and the elevator shaft. It
looks like which you won't get a building permit for that because it doesn't need code. >> Well, I know but see right now HTV because we're going to be thinking after you take your blessings today
we're going to go to the building department. They approve then we go to the building department. See the thing is I have to make sure I have to go through all the checkpoints. So I submit they tell me it's good. I take it to the building department. The building
department or the fire marshall like oh no this has to be solid that cannot be your open rail. So we change that and then you know that so your signed and sealed plans are not not going to work. >> These are minor changes mayor that could
be easily you know worked with the third party uh review uh process. They're respectfully they're not because like you say things like if things are pushed a little bit to the left. Hold on. >> Commissioner Brett, not Sheena.
>> I would just that you allow the days to fully give comments and they'll give you the opportunity to speak as well. >> I'm just going to let it go. Thank you. >> You wanted to say something, sir. I see your hand raised.
>> We we designed the tower. made our submittal. The design has not changed. We have to meet a bunch of floors of the elevator have to meet the floors of our connectors. We have to meet the
requirements of the elevator shaft. The design hasn't changed when when the word uh you know we we have openings that have stuckco edges. We have a roll lock brick
that is needed in the design. Our stairs have some doors. Those doors are factory doors that are installed in masonry openings. The masonry openings do not have trim. They do not have decoration.
Uh the building itself doesn't have decoration. It's a brick building. Our building is a new structure that basically mimics the engineering of the original building 100 years ago with masonry. Our masonry is stuckco block.
There's it brick. The design hasn't changed. the we we realized and the fire department although not
denying them earlier we had some things that had to be done. We had to have a second means of egress from the second from the seventh level. We had to have that. But the the the actual physical thing that we're
building, which is the only thing we're building, and the only part of the building we're affecting is where our required catwalks attaching to the building minimally. That's the only effect we're having on the existing building really,
except all the stuff in the site that we wound up having to do, which is expensive. But the I'm I'm optimistic. Uh >> but I want to add something. >> He said he was optimistic. I was trying
to figure out optimistic to what if I can just hear that. >> Julie is very reasonable. She over the years has expressed, you know, a great interest in
trying to help us satisfy the the requirements. If you have aesthetic requirements, we have we have a minimal structure that's being controlled by the size of the existing building that we have to match. We can't have slopes
and we we have a minimalist tower. A minimalist tower doesn't have to have uh features or decoration. We had Muhammad had a bunch of designers with he hired a bunch of designers that provided 3D images with all kinds of
different things. We had things going up vertically up the tower. We've tried all these different things to comply with the aesthetic that maybe people would like to see or would like to see. Uh,
I'm optimistic that we can either describe what we're doing and say there's no there's no ornamentation here. There isn't needed. We don't want to have ornamentation. We're stopping the water from leaking here with with proper construction. Our doors fit in
masonry openings. Our windows are required around our our stair tower. We meet fire codes. I mean, I'm I'm optimistic that reasonable requests can be met. I mean, I'm happy with alternatives. Alternative number three,
uh, you know, of course, is the most attractive for us? >> Uh, given your optimism, have you seen the four items under what would be the completed package to resubmit? And if so, do you have a problem with any of that? >> I'm I was amazed. I don't know if you
all were able to see these uh this report that was put on the screen. I I'd never seen that until we walked in here today. >> Well, >> that's not something we requested. You know, we're trying we're trying to work. We're trying to do everything.
>> We're all trying to accomplish the same thing here. We want a nice new beautiful building. >> And and I had a plan and a half years ago, they expired. So, okay. >> If we keep going back in time, Muhammad,
we're just not going to get anywhere if we keep going back to what's already happened. I would love it if we could just say day one. Let's What do we need to do now to get this to work? >> I want to go back in time just once. >> Oh, fine. Blame it on the mayor here.
the the plans and concepts that were presented to HPV in 2023. Did those match your current um approved drawings? >> Yes.
>> Okay. Then your approved drawings have to start all over. >> I mean, this has elevator on one side, stairs on the other. Your new concept is stairs wrapping around the elevator. >> Always have been like that. always. >> No, it hasn't. >> That's not what was submitted.
>> Not at all. >> You're correct. >> There so many I forgot. >> No, I understand. But >> so you cannot tell me that you if we approve tonight that you can take your plans and go put in for a permit because your plans don't match what we're
talking about tonight. >> Yes. in in a way that you know structural size of the alligator shaft all of that you know and remember we went back to demolish the >> right
>> after that so all I'm saying is like we're going to go regardless after this we're going to have to go with regardless >> okay but you're going to have to get new plants it's the same it is not the
It's not. And and we can >> You cannot tell me that stairs that do this are the same as stairs that do this. >> Those are not the same. An elevator here surrounded by stairs compared to an elevator here with stairs over here are
not the same plan. You cannot tell me that the building department is going to give you a permit based on plans that do not look at all like what you're building. >> So, we can start. We can go forward from what we have now and see if we can fix
this. But if you keep telling us you already have plans and you're going to use those plans, that's telling me that you are not going to do what we're approving tonight. And why would I approve it if you're telling me you're not going to do it? >> That's my concern.
>> I know. You know, I apologize. This has been three and a half. >> I understand that. I've been here every day of >> Yes. But what what happened was when when we demolished the home was basically allow us to shrink the staircase and wrap it around the
elevator and those actually the plans that we actually have submitted to the building department. So yes, and I can show you I can show you the ceiling plans for the
for the ones that are actually um Does it matter? It did, >> right? What matters is if we can come up with a concept of what it looks like and then you can provide a plan that matches. >> Again, the uh this hasn't been presented
to HPB. I'm not going to pretend like I'm an architect and and that I know schedule S like the back of my hand. I'm looking at one set of plans that shows the staircase where the railing is exposed. This one shows that it's covered. is I I cannot in good faith
uh approve anything or I at this point now I don't even know how we work together on this because there there's nothing miss the May 2023
it does appear that what was shown was just a blank stucco wall. Am I reading that correctly? Although I don't have the minute so I don't know if any. >> So you may have 23 or 22.
>> 22. >> Sorry I scribbled out. >> The ones you just had up there. Mayor, I was uh I was mistaken when I said the design had changed. We did have those earlier designs with exterior
stairs, but the only when we when we went with a third provider, they they have reviewed and stamped the the current plans with a few minor details, meaning okay, which are not the plans
that would match the CFA from 22 would not. >> Okay, so the plans that you want to build don't match the CFA you keep saying you want to go back to. So you can't do that. So we can come up with a new CFA >> to move forward.
Now it's just only >> we can't just take that by a peace meal process that's presented to them and they approved it and the city recommended to approve it in August meeting.
So that's why we figured that okay well if staff has approved recommending approval we don't need to reinvent the wheel. >> So the earlier approval had conditions um that there would be banding to be added around the elevator shaft
that matches the color and size of the banding located on the building between each floor. Any revisions to the rooftop building configuration may be approved by staff at a minor review. Um this that development order was never
exe signed and executed but that was the condition. >> Okay. So a blank stucco wall was never actually approved. Okay. So now we're back to today. I'm out of the >> past three years ago not
There were conditions. >> I heard that the development order was never signed. >> Correct. >> By the >> Did you sign the development order? >> Keep in mind, >> you're under.
>> Okay. over >> ultimately uh mayor and the commissioners you your decision is whether to uphold or deny the decision of HPB which HPB's denial was based upon
not having complete plans and understanding as to what was going to be built um an understanding as to the methodology and understanding as to the materials that were going to be used um
over several continuences and I add that just because so that you understand what the what the process was or your decision is to uh override HPB's decision finding that they were in compliance that there is a full
understanding of what is being built there is a full understanding of um concept materials all the things that that staff has set forth for you or continue it to see if the applicant can come into compliance if that if that
is your choice. But there are serious concerns about approving plans that HPB has never seen because procedurally that is out of line with the process. >> I am not comfortable with that. I I am comfortable with what you've
already documented here for us, which is to resubmit with everything you've listed in this package and dictating that to the the client here to comply with and not go back into the past. Let's
just find a way to move forward. And if these don't seem like they're impossible requests, >> can you pull up the chart of requested and provided again? >> Chris broke it.
>> Chris broke it. Okay, >> thank you Chris. >> So >> brick product sample that seems easy. Dimension and profile of the corners. That seems easy. An actual paint color.
That seems easy. Roof materials. That seems easy. The piece that's miss I think is missing from here is the actual I don't know the actual term but the um ornamentation I'll use that word of the
tower which me personally from the back I'm okay with playing from the side I'm not >> yeah the Park Avenue side and that's where
I'm uncomfortable being HPV. >> I agree. I'm comfortable with a regular uh plastic gate, but I'm not HPB. That doesn't allow that in the historic district, right? So, I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm okay with anything because that's not my field. I
really think that it should go back to um HPB, but they did give us an option here. Um but I still think that that is too broad. And um in the paragraph where it says that the commission can continue the appeal to um a certain date and
direct the applicant to submit a complete coordinated resubmitt. But then when they talk about like the de detail uh specifications and stuff like that that it's not narrowed down. So I don't want us to come back and and then Mr. Muhammad say, "Well, that's not what you
said that I had to have." at at this point with this applicant, it needs to be completely spelled out exactly what what is required. And I don't know >> if we're capable of doing that tonight. Staff would literally have to direct us
on everything because like when they're talking about the the tower, it says including but not limited to that still leaves things open, you know. So if not, we're going to be back at the
the the same conversation. >> That's what I'm afraid. Even if we continue it and say go do these things and come back, we're still looking at the design as if we're HPV. >> Can you go back to the options? >> Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. And the alternative too, you've just summarized what you put in more detail that what we're looking at >> is one of the alternatives to send it back to HPB. Well, upholding the denial would
>> would send it back to HBB because you'd have to resubmit knowing what needs to be included in that packet because we've had those discussions >> and then HPB would be able to look at these new submittals and plan and make a
determination. Can I offer a potential added piece of one of these alternatives if the commission chooses to say uphold the HPV denial which would trigger basically a new submitt anyway as opposed to doing
the continuation as opposed to building on this continued application that has been you know a challenge from the beginning uphold the HPV denial require them to resubmit but wave all submitt fees for that so it doesn't it doesn't require
them to pay more. It'll just start a new application process and we'll have a clean slate which they're going to have to resubmit the correct drawings anyway. That way we have a new application. It's got all the right stuff from the start if they, you know, submit what they say they can
submit and then we wave the commission waves the fee so they're not paying that again as well. and it's cleaner and it helps us get in a position of forget everything that's happened already. Let's just get this done for this guy so he can build his building.
>> But they still need >> they would still need to turn everything in. >> They need an understanding of what HPB will approve. >> Well, set forth in many ways in the previous
hearings. if the applicant and owner look at the the prior or even listen to the the prior meetings because it's been the same conversation frankly um over and over again. >> Yeah, I'd like to think that Muhammad
has been learning throughout this whole process and knows more than he did when he started and uh might be in a better position to submit it. Can I >> Can I ask a question? And I think I know the answer, but sometimes I don't.
>> If we do what was just suggested, >> send it back to HPB and wave the fees. >> Let him let him start the process over. Wave the fees. Staff won't take it to HPB until he has
submitted what is needed. Why Why can't that happen? Commissioner, >> when you say staff won't take it to HPB, let me make sure I understand what you're saying, Commissioner. >> You're saying that it won't go before
HP. You're wanting it to not go before HPB until >> staff makes a determination. >> Right. >> I I would just recommend that it's cleaner to let him have the full access to the process. He has the right to submit his application. >> No, I I agree. I agree with all of that.
Sorry to interrupt you. I'm just trying to cut the chase. >> Why Why does staff take it? >> Because they don't necessarily take it, but they have to send it. >> Okay. If the applicant wants it, they have to send. Can I can I answer a
question? Basically, we submit to Julie and Julie uh you know, reviews it and puts the staff recommendation. >> So, from day one, it's been always like, you know, I called Julie like okay how are we doing we need to change anything
we need to modify anything and then I got Julie's blessing before going to HPV HPV and it's just basically an approval and that's what I was trying to do and and you can ask her that's every time I'm trying to get her blessing meaning she is the officer for for historic
feration and she knows what's what was going what and multiple times she recommended approve at the bare minimum we all in front of HB she's approval and then we go and then they just
one guy just like sitting there start yelling he doesn't even want to look at anything and I said like you know what I've had it and then the person that was supposed to be to recuse himself she's sitting there and then she start calling me names during HPD you know in front of
the uh the city attorney and so we start like yelling at each other and and she was the one that just went on social media and and talked about my past and this and that and other and that's why I wanted to come in front of you because HPV's re I can't rhyme or re reason with them
because they were swayed by the the lady that s >> I will >> and that all that was just like a switch I don't know where it started when it happened but we've always gotten the the
blessings from the staff We we we need to recall any of these meetings and I just want I this is my pleasure of sitting in on all of the boards that I am able to recount in the issue with the board members who's
not allowed to vote. There was no yelling back and forth name calling. >> Keep in mind we're all under >> You mean like cutting me off right now? >> No, that's not what I'm just saying. >> Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to add so that that was not how the meeting went
but at this juncture I think it best for you and for the day is to figure out how we move forward and I believe that's what you want to do. I don't recall staff giving you your blessings. There's always been issues of con of conditions. There's always been issues of asking for
clarification. I've been sitting on the board since May and that has been my experience with regard to this one application that has come before HPV since May. This is the only one where
this has been the consistent issue, but let's move you forward. >> This is a very critical location and a very significant building. So, we will just want to make sure it's done right. the first floor depended on me and these
delays. You know, I'm trying to help the first floor. You guys try to help the first floor, you know, by helping me with the the the senator line. I think we need to look at the bigger picture, you know, like you would be 100%
knowing that everything can be approved by a higher, you know, jurisdiction, which is the building department. That's That's who's going to issue the you know and and I'm open to suggest
>> um Eileen Julie is there anything else processwise that >> I gave you a list what's missing from the list >> is there anything process-wise that uh you think could be could go better if we continue with this. Are are we doing
anything different between you and and everybody else that is making things difficult for you or is it going smoothly as far as communication goes? Are you getting too much of it, not enough? Um, can we help Muhammad help you guys with how it's been going in the
past and what we might want to tweak there when it comes to communication and processes? >> Attorney Green, >> that was a long question. She offered to sit with with it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Which in itself is helpful.
>> Okay. Again, I'm just trying to go forward here. >> You cannot take me to the past because I won't go there. >> I'm ready. >> Let's move it along. >> I'm ready to public hearing though. So I have to check to see if anybody else wishes to speak. So if y'all can go
ahead and step back please. This is a public hearing. Anyone else in the audience wish to speak to this item then I will close the public hearing. I think it is clear we want to make this happen. It is also clear we are uncomfortable making design decisions
without HPV. So what is the commission's pleasure? order to uh to send it all the way back, we need to move to deny. And then I'm in favor of doing the waving of the fee as recommended by staff. So I can do a
motion for that if that's the >> I second that. >> Okay. >> I don't see a better option. >> Okay. I move to deny the appeal and uphold the Historic Preservation Board's denial development order number 25-27 for the certificate of appropriateness
for 101 East First Street based on the continued lack of complete coordinated and re reviewable plans, the outstanding building permanent deficiencies and the applicant's inability to provide sufficient architectural detail to demonstrate compliance with schedule S and compatibility with the downtown
commercial historic district. Um, I would like to add to the motion that the city of Sanford will wave all of the COA um fees for
uh the um applicant of 101 East First Street. >> Second. >> Okay. Is the COA fee the only waveable fee at this point? Is there anything else that they would be responsible for for this residdle? Not
>> in the recording fee, >> right? There'll be um recording fees, potential attorney fees, things like that. But I don't know that I mean the the only application fee that we have would be the CFA. They do have a site development permit. They have not made
any progress on the site and that will expire if they do not start work. But for now, they have a site development permit on site. >> When does this When does it expire? Sorry, it >> was issued in March. So >> that's September.
>> Yeah. However, I just looked at the application. It says it's good through March. So I don't know if something happened in September that I don't see. But right now, the expiration shown on the application is March. >> Okay. >> So for whatever reason, we extended it to March. >> But if action doesn't occur and it
doesn't start getting cleared inspections, the site development permit will expire. >> Okay. Can that be extended? Again, >> I have to find out why the extra six months are there. Um, but it could be or you could give authority to staff to extend it. Typically, site development
permits are only extended upon inspection. Like site plans, physical applications can be extended by administrative process. In terms of site stuff, it's usually only by inspection. >> Well, could could we add that? Yeah. Can you add that to your motion to give
staff authority to extend another six months? >> I would like to amend the motion to give staff authority six what? Wait, wait, wait. Say, what am I supposed to say again? Eileen, >> you're you're authorizing administrative
extension an additional six months on the site. >> Is that good enough? >> Thank you. Okay, that's my motion. >> Second. All right. Any other discussion? All in favor?
>> Any oppose? >> Pass unanimously. >> Okay, that brings us to some participation. I do have one request from Alex Vice here. Good evening. My name is uh Alec Vice. I reside at 455 West Drive, Warren City,
Florida. Uh I am the founding pastor of a brand new church. It is River City Baptist Church. Um I just want to say this is a this is an interesting group and you guys I can see the critical thinking and I appreciate it. I like it. Uh my city
has its own challenges and they don't conduct business like you guys do. So, I do appreciate uh the process and what I'm watching. I don't want to take up too much of your time. I just want to make myself available to all of y'all. I believe that I sent everybody except for the the clerk's office and the the city
attorney and city manager. I sent you guys emails um offering services of prayer. You guys need something, I'm here to pray for you. Uh I've been meeting with some uh business owners in the city and uh just letting them know
that I'm just here to pray for you and and if I can be of assistance to anybody, that's what I want to be. Uh if you're asking, well, where is your church? Or how many members do you have? Right now, it's me and my wife.
>> When I say it's a new church, it it's a it's in its infancy. It's a brand new baby. It's uh very delicate. Uh I just plan on meeting with people, starting home Bible studies or maybe a Bible study in the park, just trying to be a
good witness for the Lord Jesus and uh and help the city of Sanford. If I could give you some statistics of why a new church, right? Most people say, "Well, there's a church on every corner." That may be true. Uh but I would tell you this. I've done some demographic studies
in Sanford. 55% of the population of Sanford has no rel religious affiliation. I'm gonna let that sink in. 65,000 plus people 55% no religious affiliation. >> Some of us like it that
>> if you look at then the crime demographics has religious affiliation goes down, the crime demographics go the other way. That's that's in any city that you look at uh across America. Uh that's a problem in my opinion. Uh it's a
spiritual problem. It's a spiritual darkness that people walk in. I don't mean to be preaching or a theological debate or anything like that. It's just that's what it is. Then you look at the people that do identify with religiousness. Of course, all denominations and flavors, it's about
1.4% of that 45%. If you just do the numbers, that's that's not a very big number that considers themselves religiously affiliated. Um, and I don't mean religious
affiliated like, you know, Bible thumper, you got to go to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about uh, you know, professing faith. Uh, so anyways, uh, Stanford, there's a bright hope, a bright future. I find
that bright hope in the Lord Jesus Christ and that's the light that I'm trying to bring and uh be a positive impact. If I can be of assistance to any one of you, please I'd like to have the opportunity to sit down with you and uh and discover how we can help Sanford and
uh be a positivity in that especially with our local law enforcement. I pray for you guys, our first responders. I pray for them and we'll continue to pray for them. And u if you have any questions, I'd be I'd be willing to answer them as best as I can. I don't have all the answers. Don't presume to
have all the answers, but I know the God that does have all the answers. So, uh that's that's what my stance is. >> Okay. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. God bless. You guys have >> sir. >> Yes, sir. You guys have a good evening. God bless. >> Thank you.
>> Attorney Green, I got we got this one by email. >> I knew that one. I knew that last >> I was just spell it K R. >> Okay. So, we received a public um comment by email that I will read. I'm
not I don't not know the context of it. This is essentially the all of it. Unfortunately, I can't be a part of it. However, my one request is for a more North Florida model of English dominance for most of Central Florida, primarily here in Sanford, Florida, with less
Spanish being heard. >> I read I read what they wrote. >> Okay. Does anyone else in the audience wish to speak to the question? >> An email or a Facebook or what? >> It was an email to the city clerk as a public comment.
>> There you go. >> Where you can go in and say, "Here's a comment. I would like to make about a an item on the agenda, but it's not about an item on the agenda. So, I I've read it in the public record. >> Okay. Moving on to another items. Fifth
amendment for the contract for sale. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of the city commissioner, city staff is requesting that you approve a fifth amendment to the contract for sale of real estate between the city and the Sanford Housing Authority for the properties known as William Clark Court based on prior discuss decisions and directions and
commitments of the city commission. Questions or motion? Move to approve. >> Second. >> Motion second. Any further discussion? All in favor? >> I. Any opposed? as Nashley on procurement of the horse chemicals. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of the city
commission, the city staff request the city commission approve procurement in the amount of 500,000 to harp chemicals for polymer and cumulative chemicals. Any questions or motion? >> Move to approve. >> Second. Any further discussion? All in favor?
>> I unanimously procurement from Odyssey Manufacturing. Yes, Mr. The mayor, members of city commission, city staff is requesting approval for procurement of liquid chlorine from Odyssey Manufacturing for the siege water and wastewater treatment facilities. >> Move to approve.
>> Second motion. >> Move to approve. >> Second. Any further discussion? All in favor? I. >> Any opposed? Pass unanously. Recurment for asphalt paving services. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of city commission. City staff is requesting city commission approve a procurement
for citywide rehab and full depth in the amount of $750,000 to asphalt paving services. >> Any questions or motion? >> Move to approve. >> Second. Any further discussion? All in favor?
>> Any opposed? Anley. Procurement for BL environmental. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of city commission, the city staff is requesting commission approval remaining procurement subure environmental for critical repairs at a cost not to exceed an additional 1,626,642
move to approve. >> Second. >> Second. >> Any further discussion? >> All in favor. >> Procurement to Middle Sex Paving. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of the city commission. City staff is requesting city commission approve procurement for citywide resurfacing in amount not to
exceed $2.5 million to Midix Sex Paving LLC. >> Move to approve. >> One of them is for full depth um repaving and one of them is for resurfacing. >> Okay. So you knew that question.
>> Good question. Commissioner >> one's repaired. >> I had the same question. >> Okay. Second >> motion second. Any further discussion? All in favor? >> I. Any opposed? Passion Anley. Procurement from Cor and Collier. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor. Members of city commission. City staff is requesting
commission approve an award of a bid to core and cooyer ink for a sand filter replacement project in the amount of 3,661,287. I have a quick question. Does this remove those little discs?
We love those BOF filters. >> Okay, questions or motion? Move to approve. Second. Any further discussion? All in favor? >> Any opposed? >> Unanously. >> Uh resolution 3446.
>> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of city commission, city staff is requesting approval of resolution 3446, amending the classification and pay plan. This request is to reclassify one full-time equivalent senior rehuman resource analyst in the position in the human
resource department to a full-time human resource manager position in the human resource department. The position will plan, coordinate, and direct administrative functions of the human resource management department. The fiscal impact for the remainder of the fiscal year for 2025 2026 is estimated
to be $8,500. Has this already been budgeted for out of their budget? $8,500 >> and is okay. So what what are we changing in HR? What help me understand because I know we had some changes over
there. This isn't well I don't want to call people's name but what what are we changing here? >> We're taking one staff person and making them a supervisor over other staff persons. >> So basically we're just reclassifying a position.
>> Okay. And and >> we're not adding a position. >> Okay. So somebody's just getting promoted because they're doing additional work. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> And in your description, Sharon, stay there. Um, it's this might just be a typo, but it says it's changing from
this position in the human resources department to the manager position in the human resources riskmanagement department. >> It's the same department. >> It's the same. Okay. And the statement at the end of it says, "This is going to free you up to focus on city policy,
leadership, supervisory training, and long-term highle objectives and planning." >> Correct. So, how does reclassifying this person to manager free up your time to do more of this? >> This person will be managing the non-exempt positions in my department
and will also be taking over have notes. Um, >> I knew you'd come prepared. >> How many people are we getting? They'll also be working on our standard operating procedures which are sortly lacking, helping to automate some of our manual processes and hopefully taking
some of our technology into a more unified approach. >> So these are things that are not happening now or you're trying to do them yourself >> which doesn't leave me much time to do the policy changes that need to be done. So this is actual shifting of work to
this person in addition to being a manager and supervising the other people. >> Okay. >> And there's only there's only six people in HR >> HR risk management has six people. Yes. >> It'll also aid us in succession planning. >> Okay.
We need to >> because to some it might look like small department director manager are both really necessary but >> there's an awful lot of uh work that goes through there operationally. Don't let the size fool you. We're just very efficient but we want to be more
safe. >> Okay. >> Any other questions? Do we have a motion? Move to approve. Second motion second. Any further discussion? All in favor? I. Any
opposed? Mley. Resolution 3447. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of the city commission. City staff is recommending that the city commission approve resolution 3447 to amend the building department budget amount of $167,747. Questions or motion? Move >> to approve.
>> Second. >> Second. Any further discussion? All in favor? >> I. Any opposed? Passion nley. Resolution 3448. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of the city commission. City staff recommend city commission approve resolution 3448 to amend the budget to the procurement of
kitchen remodeling for fire stations 32 and 38 in the amount of 16,535. >> Move to approve. >> Second. >> Uh motion second. Any further discussion? All in favor? I. Any
opposed? Passely. Resolution 3449. >> Mr. Mayor, members of city commission, city staff recommends city commission approve resolution 3449 with the addition of three projects funded through the third generation sales tax. A budget amendment in the amount of $41,690.74 census requested to fund the remaining
balance of the city hall roof repair project and the other two projects already included in the city's FY26 budget. Questions or motion? Move to approve. >> Second. Further discussion. All in favor? I >> I. Any opposed? Pass unanimously.
Resolution 3450. >> Yes, Mr. Mayor, members of the commission, city staff is recommending commission approval of resolution 3450 amending the city budget in the amount of $4,975 to Tick America for additional funds needed to complete the roof re-roofing
project at the Sanford Museum. >> Quotions or motion? >> Move to approve. >> Second. >> Motion second. Any further discussion? All in favor? I. Any opposed? Pass unanimously. Resolution 3451. >> Mr. Mayor and members of the city commission, city staff is requesting approval of resolution 3451, amending
the city budget in the amount of $17,800 and approve procurement of services of a budget tree services quoted at $9,200 and tree farm doing business as Florida plant and tree quoted at $8,600.
Questions or motion? Move to approve. >> Wait, wait. Um, am I not following something? What? Well, I >> Why does mine say 7 17,800? I see two different >> I heard I heard Mr. Bart saying two
different numbers. >> There's two different >> two different >> so much >> they add up to 17. >> Okay. Okay. All right. >> Okay. Did we have a second? >> Yes. >> No. >> Second. I move. >> Shannon, do you have Okay.
>> All in favor? I. >> Any opposed? Pass nastly. Resolution 3452. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the commission, staff is requesting commissioner approval of resolution 3452 relating to the city's police department participation and acceptance of a Florida Department of Transportation
subrant for highway traffic safety funds. The grant program is requested. >> Move to approve. >> One quick question. Sorry. >> Wait, let's get a second since we have >> second. >> Okay. Discussion. Uh there is an item on here that says
the project objectives like starting enforcement activities within 60 days, striving to decrease speed, uh conduct at least 10 speed and or aggressive driving, high visibility overtime enforcement operations during the project period. Why overtime?
>> Because that's what the grant covers. >> That's what the grant covers >> to put more officers on the street to do more traffic. additional overtime. >> That's what the grant is for. >> It's for the overtime. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Every once in a while, you know,
let me ask a dumb question. I appreciate that. >> Answered. >> To fulfill the requirements of the grant, you got to have it your officer doing the overtime. >> Okay. I got you. >> Yeah. More officer time on the street. >> Noted.
>> And you will be receiving a email from Lisa Holder with >> She left a machine. You'll receive an email from Modo with the TV. Um, sorry about this. >> Okay. Thank you. I'm good. >> Resolution 3453.
>> Yes, Mr. Mayor. Resolution number 3453 is the city staff requesting approval to complete the procurement process of $10,000 allocated to the speed managed measurement procedures devices and 20,000 for over
to approve. Second. Any further discussion? All in favor? >> I oppose. >> Okay. Deal on city clerk. Although the finance >> city clerk's busy >> director did not give me the numbers.
>> So >> 76. Can we approve >> the Can we approve the evaluation with pay raise to be determined by
HR and finance based on the set criteria for other employees? >> That'd be fine. >> Can somebody say so moved? >> So moved. Second. >> I I can. And that would be retroactive to October one. Correct. >> So moved.
>> Okay. All in favor? Any >> opposed? Pass unanly. >> Great job, >> city attorney. >> Keep it up. Keep it up. >> I have no comments except I will be sending around an email different areas where you think you may want training in
or memos in. I just let me know what those are and I'll get those out to you. I know vested rights came up today. So, I'll prepare those memos for you based upon what you're telling me you think you need to sharpen on. >> Superb. >> Okay. >> City clerk. >> Um,
I just wanted to let you know that I had a request from Dan Ping to make a presentation at the next meeting >> on Main Street. >> I mentioned to him that several members would not be here. >> Okay. >> And he said it would include a written
report, so it'd be okay. Okay. And one of them is on the board. So, >> okay. I also wanted to see if you had a date that you might want to discuss at a workshop. You mentioned the city manager role versus the mayor role
>> when whenever it fits within the next three meetings. >> I don't know what you have on the next meeting. >> Nothing yet, Mr. >> Mayor. probably tell me nothing tomorrow in the executive management team meeting.
>> Yeah, Mr. Mayor, in all fairness, next week, the day before the agenda, they'll all be all. >> Yeah. In fairness to the commission because we understand that there will be limited numbers of commissioners at the next meeting. We would look to have an
agenda that is I'm not going to say prefunctatory, but any meaningful discussion should include all five of you. >> Good point. So not at the next >> not at the next >> I will be in Tallahassee as well. >> My turn. >> I'll wait until my turn.
>> Okay. Um city manager report only that I wish everybody the happy new year for 2026. And I also would like to again emphasize I'm looking forward to having the one-on-one meetings with all the members of the city commission. >> Great. Uh, Commissioner Brook. >> Um,
mayors, me members of the commission. Um, first, um, I'd like to say the ethics training by attorney Green was phenomenal. I have sat through I don't know how many, uh, ethics trainings, and I was thinking about anyway, uh, she was it was informative,
straight to the point, and we were able to get through that, and we learned a lot of things. Um, even though I've sat through ethics training um, many times before, um, I learned a some more things um, that I did not know. So, great job, Attorney Green. Um, Miss Tashika
Matthews um, one of the parents of the Sanford Pop Warner cheer team um, stated that the uh, girls have gone to national championships um, in JV cheer um, year after year and they wanted to know if they could be recognized at the city commission meeting. probably not at the
next one since we'll have limited staff, but I think that's a really good thing. We've acknowledged our our boys. Um, and >> so I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's it's the girls. It's just a cheerle >> I know that. >> Oh, you said the boys. >> No, I said we've acknowledged boy the
boys when they win. >> Okay. >> Um, we would like to I think it would be nice if we acknowledge the girls in the um the JV chair. Um, so with some kind of proclamation or whatnot and then uh when whenever that's available
>> that are you going to get the information bar? >> Yeah, she sent me the um all of the information for the proclamation. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um uh at the last meeting I talked about um
let's be be aware of the um the the filming in the historic district. I was happy to see that there was letters left in my door. So, I know that my neighbors received that, letting um neighbors know that filming will be taking taking place on certain streets. So, I whoever was responsible for that, thank you so much.
Um on Marina Isle behind the ALF, those lights along the waterfront, there's about six of them that are out. So, if we can get staff to look at those, um they're they're they're very noticeable. Um, I don't know if we said that we were
the CRA was acknowledged at the CRA meeting, but I to me I think that it would be good if they were acknowledged at a city commission meeting for all that they have done. Um, they handled a extremely large budget, was very um, instrumental in a lot of things that
happened in the city of Sanford. And I think that that those who uh are were current sitting CRA members and those who are still here with us that were past CRA meeting uh members should be recognized publicly at a commission
meeting. That's just one person's um opinion. Um I have a meeting with economic development this week with Brady and Pamela uh mayor and city commissioners. I'm just the the the downtown area is looking really bad um
with the vacant buildings and um the um the brown paper that are that is up and uh you know the boarded up windows and a lot is happening behind the scenes. So I have asked Mr. phone apart um to schedule a series of meetings with not
only economic development but Eileen Henson and um uh Tony Romano. Um uh this is funny but it's not really funny. Um I think that we should have an an active shooter fire drill active
shooter drill or a fire drill for the city commission. I mean, we deny a people, you know, sometimes we shut down million-dollar projects. And I'm not saying that that gives people any right to come in here and act up, but I think that we we we
in the day and time where, you know, mental health is just is not stable. So, if we could just do do one and we don't have to schedule it soon, but we need to prepare ourselves if um something happens on how we should exit the building, if we should go underneath
the desk, the dice or whatever. Um I don't know if we need to have that uh publicly because then you're giving everybody, you know, a view of what we're going to do, but I just think that that um that's something that's very important. And then um my last thing is
um I wanted to make a correction because when the chief gave his presentation about uh uh one of the police officers, I said, "Well, why didn't finance catch it?" And I want to clarify that that was not a finance issue and apologize to the
finance department. Finance was the department that actually caught it. So I just wanted to make sure that I um corrected that. Oh, and I do have another note. Um, from my understanding, the wastewater treatment plant or the reclaim plant, um, we had the parts that
were fixed. So, I'm not sure why we still are smelling the odor. Um, it had went away and I was very happy about that. And then it's suddenly starting to appear again. So, I don't know if it's just like a glitch in the system or if that's just something that just every
now and then you can expect for there to be a whiff of that sour odor. Either way, I would like to be able to respond to the constituents about We ain't got to go through it tonight. I'm just, you know, maybe an email explaining um I I
saw the the thing that Brent and Richie them did with Lisa Holder, but again, we put out there that we had had the parts and I thought that it was good. didn't smell anything and then now it's back. And that completes the report for district one.
>> Commissioner Wens Green, I second what uh Commissioner Bren said. Great job. Thank you. Um also just give thanks to um again public works. We had our public works along with everyone else that gave
gifts. We were able to give out um over a thousand gifts, Christmas gifts at the uh toy giveaway. Um in partnership with Picnic Project, we were able to give out over 30,000 pounds of groceries to over
350 families. I want to thank SPD for uh helping out with the uh traffic. Uh we had people we started guys giving out groceries at 10:00 a.m. and I had the first car in line told me he had been there since 3:30 in the morning.
>> So um just let you know just how bad people want groceries, need food and so it was great. We had a football team and young men of veterans and norm and uh others that came out to give um this upcoming weekend MLK festivities. uh you
can go to their website because I don't know the exact time for all the events but the ortorial contest is Friday the banquet is Saturday the faith service is on Sunday I know at 3 at St. fall and then MLK parade is Monday. So if you
guys are not doing anything, come on out. Um the 22nd, 22nd, next Thursday, I'll be having my meeting again. We back on the four Thursdays at 6 PM. Food giveaway will be the 23rd at Dr. George Stark Park. So look forward. Please spread the
word. If you know anybody that needs assistance or help, we're here to help them. Thank you, sir. Did Parks and Recreation do the the MLK parade? >> Are they responsible for the cars and stuff? >> Okay. Do does anybody know who I need to
talk to? I didn't know this year uh the parade is on my birthday, so I will not be here. So, that's one less car. >> I don't remember anybody to your house for your birthday. H
>> I don't remember getting any invite >> um communication. >> I didn't get any either. >> I thought we did it every year. >> I know, but usually there's miscommunication. >> I'll tell Mr. Bont. >> All right. >> Huh. >> See, I guess. >> Well, I until she said something. It
didn't occur to me. I was just going to show up. >> Show up, Mandy. You can ride on me if you want to. >> Commissioner, >> why aren't you walking? You He's trying to be funny. You know, I had surgery. >> Walking. I heard he was walking.
>> Oh my god. Commissioner so we can get out of here. >> Yes. Any interest today? >> Well, I got to listen to all y'all's >> terrible. Um, first of all, uh, Commissioner Britain brought up downtown. I think 1792 is a disgrace.
Um, we had made some progress a couple years back. It seems like we're going backwards. Um we have a lot of uh empty businesses. We have a lot of uh empty lots. We are not
we are not fulfilling the mission of of getting uh people to invest in this city and to help get projects done.
Um, I believe uh the hoped for project at cap at uh the former um patio grill from what I understand is dead in the water. Um the fine folks from Don Julio's had purchased it and hope to to
open there. Uh they were scared away by our our wonderful oil and grease program and I understand they're not coming back. That's a huge loss. um he also was interested in the wing house place and walked away from that as
well. That's just one example of how that that that grease program is is slowly eroding uh any progress we're making in this city and it applies to downtown as you've heard over and over. Um
the the mall project uh seems to be uh off the ground and running. Kudos to our economic development team on that. I would like to see uh some effort made towards the 1792 area and downtown area as Commissioner Britain mentioned. Um I
also uh think perhaps uh perhaps it's time for the city to consider creating a a team that that helps get some of these projects done. Um, and I could sit up here tonight and and and point out a lot of different projects
that that are just for whatever reason not moving forward. And that, you know, yeah, we can say it it's their fault. It's their fault. It's their fault. It's their fault. But what are we doing? What are we doing to to encourage, to
help, to move along uh these projects? Um, so that that that's a concern I have. Um, and and it's a recommendation I have of of uh of maybe using some staff to to start evaluating these
situations and and seeing if we can if we can bring some people back to the table. >> We need a tiger team. >> I'm sorry. >> We need a tiger team. >> There you go. Um the second uh issue is um I as I mentioned uh previously I'm
now on the rescue outreach mission board. Uh we have a major fundraiser coming up. I I'm curious. I remember in the past the city uh donated money every year to ROM. Are we still doing that?
>> There's $25,000 in >> Okay, we're still doing that >> for the current year. There's $25,000 in the budget. >> All right. So, that'd be two years in a row we've done. >> Okay. >> And I give them $1,000 every year. >> Okay. Well, uh for for the sponsorship
for this event, uh I was hoping to uh to get the city to uh to be a sponsor. Um so I will I will donate money out of my funds uh unless
anybody wants to team up with me um >> for a public purpose. Um, >> how much? >> There's there's many different levels here. Uh, I I know I have at least $1,000. So, uh, I would I would like to Well, let's do 1,500.
>> Move to approve 15,500. Move to approve uh $1,500 from the district 3 discretionary fund for public purpose. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I stole your thunder. >> Yeah.
>> Oh, you were going to do it. No, not exactly that. Go ahead. >> You can get more money. >> All right, I'll do it now. A thousand more from district four. >> What? >> And I'll tell you why. >> Okay. Um well, uh I wanted to say something earlier and
sometimes I I I have to be careful how critical I am. But that project on 71092 concerns me. Um we have we have a problem in this city
um of either wanting to be wanting to be uh an upand cominging city or do we want to be a city that has all the services um for the county and brings in uh some
some definite people needing help, but we also bring in some issues. Um, and so it's a it's a fine line we walk. And I think we talked about it recently and Attorney Green sent me some information on on where our our legalities are on on
some of this. Um but uh again 1792 is going to be a spot uh where a lot of people are coming in for services by foot, by bike, by any means necessary. Um
uh but but for those of us that live in that area, um it's it's not particularly a welcome site. Um, and if you're trying to sell a property or or sell your home, um, it definitely isn't. Uh, many times
I've caught, uh, campers, uh, uh, just at, uh, is it the North Siminal family practice, uh, camping out on their property. Um, so it we we we are we we're we're in
kind of a a treacherous time right now where more and more people are reaching hardship and we don't have anywhere for them to go. We don't have anywhere for them to stay and we don't have anywhere for them to be. Um and and but desperate
sometimes desperate people do desperate things. uh the vandalism downtown here. Um there's other vandalism that's occurred across the city. Um there's there's a lot of petty crimes occurring.
Um and and so it we we walk a fine line. Um and and and I don't know all the answers, but uh we need to be careful making ourselves the city that has all
the services um and the city that wants to have all these new businesses invest in us um and and our city prosper. That's it. Commissioner, I will get with the clerk
and we will schedule a time for the commission to look at auctions for the current grease trap ordinances and see how you may want to modify them. >> Okay, >> commissioner Thomas. >> Uh, League of Cities, we just had our
first Monday morning call this morning and we have 15 bills to watch already. >> There are thousands that are normally submitted this early in session. And it was uh I think they only had 800 last week, but everybody's shoving them in now. So, we do have 15 we're going to
pay attention to and I'm sure that you and I will. >> Isn't it almost over? >> Yeah, I wish uh we'll be meeting with Senator Broer when we're up there and have some discussions about that. Uh speaking of rescue mission, I was happy to hear from the seminal
state golf team who went to the mission and had their kids there as volunteers. And they were pleasantly surprised at what they were able to do there because it's not just what you would imagine the mission is, but some of you know in the back part of their property, they have a
garden. And this garden is it's teaching self-sufficiency to people that includes hydroponics, things that I didn't even know they had. And so they had the team there learning how to maintain all of this. and Christa, my wife, took some
home. So, she's now going to be planting lettuce and broccoli in our backyard as a result of that. So, uh, and I've already sent a message to Chris Ham telling him thanks for the letting them come and buy and they plan on just regularly visiting that place. So, they are doing more good things than some
people might even realize. That's why I agreed to the $1,000 from district 4 for a public person purpose. I move to donate district 4 $1,000 for a public purpose. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I >> thank you.
>> And tell >> tell Christa and her girls thank you so much for >> Yeah. >> volunteering. >> They are happy to continue doing that. >> It's a wonderful place. >> It is. It really is. Um Forge's Garage grand opening is now January 23rd and I'm told by people I trust that that is
now a definitive date. So we will look forward to that. and uh links. Um Mr. Boner Park, last time we talked about this. I know that we have moved away from that to Scout and Scout will continue to get more and
more data so that they can decrease the weight times, but in spite of that, I'm still concerned about our most needy, the people who need it the most and making sure they get what they need. So you had said you talked to Carl Wckenman, planning and development director for links and that there might be more
discussions and work sessions about whether or not we can still >> we were supposed to talk about the night. >> Were we? >> We were. >> What happened to that? >> We got a lot of things on it, but we are still having conversations with links about having established a Sanford
service that they would the city would pay directly to links for certain services. >> Okay. I spoke to them last week uh because um I didn't understand why we weren't making any progress. >> So I spoke to them personally last week.
>> Good. >> I I have asked for numbers uh for the is it the 46 West >> 46 East. >> Yeah. Uh the unfortunate part is is that the county is still paying for links to go into Alamont Springs.
>> Yeah, they've got I think four routes they're continuing. >> Yeah. But they decided not to pay for any more routes into Sanford. >> Uh I know you're promoting Scout and I'm hopeful Scout works. I'm not against >> but transitionally at least.
>> I'm really not happy with how the can county did this. I'm not happy with how they handled it and I'm not happy how they've disenfranchised our our citizens once again. Um and so uh the unfortunate part is for
us to pay to have links come all the way into Sanford now is going to be costly >> because we're going to be paying the bulk of the of the cost >> that we weren't paying before. >> Right. I agree with you on that because I've had numerous citizens reach out to
me, you know, in my area, >> how they're losing out on transportation. >> It it was a horrible decision. Um and and I've had people in Sanford tell me how awful Scout is. their initial experiences are maybe it will improve
the weight times it will improve but yeah I think we should have extended also the cost transitional period and keep links in place until they have enough data and enough vehicles and some solid routes that say you are not going to wait if you're going to school and you have to be there on time etc.
>> Now the problem is is that they're already ripping out the old bus station the bus stops >> um and so if we don't move fast that cost is going to be incurred as well. >> Good point. >> Uh the part the other part that really
frustrates me is is that is that the people who use the majority of people that use Sunreil are also public transit uh meeting for the rest of the trip. Sunreil doesn't
get them to their house >> or to the plaza or to the health department or many other places they want to go. That's where Lynx was filling the gap. >> Um so it it almost makes our Sunrail
station uh useless. >> Almost any of them useless. Uh, so the last thing I'll say is the trolley that we pay for. I know we don't pay a lot, but there may be there may be some discussion we need
to have as to whether maybe the trolley substitutes what Lynx was doing here in the city. >> No. >> Okay. Well, like I said, >> could be one of our amenities, not not a
>> just required transportation, >> but not that way. >> Well, it it's kind of useless. Uh we >> we don't want Sunro to lose so much business that they stop running, >> right? Um it it's kind of it's kind of silly for us
to pay for a trolley and for for a link service uh in my opinion. So that these are discussions we're going to need to have. Uh but I don't know how much we're paying for the trolley. I don't think it's substantial, but maybe I'm wrong.
>> Do you recall? >> Couple hundred thousand, I think. >> Is it okay then? >> I think but I may not. >> Okay. >> I'm guessing at that. >> But let's shaking his head. Yes. >> What? >> 240. >> 240. Okay. I did remember. How about that?
>> Um but uh Okay. But it needs to be timely >> discussion >> a discussion >> and um because I had talked to the city manager also about >> um if we're not doing something where
we're bringing links back the money that we were originally budgeting to give links can we somehow use to subsidize >> um scout for our residents? Yeah, but apparently we can't get any answers of what that money was going
towards. >> And that really frustrates me, but uh and it was it wasn't much money. What was it? 90,000. >> 90,000. Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, that's >> Are you done? >> Yes.
>> Okay. Lastly, I think um Tracy, I sent you information about Wordley, and I don't know if you've gotten to it yet, but Wordly as a service that uses AI to transcribe meetings. And the
reason it caught my eye is because it also transcribes meetings in multiple languages. >> Yes, I need to read that. >> Yes. So, I would love it if we could see if that's even economically feasible. >> I have to talk into the microphone.
>> Oh, forget it. >> I think it's worth exploring, though. >> I'll look into it. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, especially in response to the email we received from a certain constituent. I would love to see it in multiple languages. Um,
>> and let's see. And that's why we need >> Okay, I think I'm done. >> Okay. Um, let's see. Is Brent still here? Oh, good.
>> He's I mentioned I talked to the chief about some things with golf carts. Um, one of the things that I think will be an easy um, improvement is we have signs along streets that you cannot drive a golf cart on that say golf cart sharing
road where those signs should probably say golf carts crossing road and put those on the the streets that we have crossings but you can't drive on. Um I've also I started talking to the
chief about some other options about some other things and we'll continue that. But um him um we are trying to get the both the parking map and the um golf cart map on Sanford Connect because I just happened to be playing on my phone
and I looked well can you pull it up on here and it's not easy to so um so Lisa is going to look into that. Um, we talked about scout. Um, lots of us going to Tallahassee over um in two weeks.
>> So, good luck. >> Um, community. >> Yeah. >> Um, next at the next meeting, um, we are doing proclamation for Janine Taylor.
Um, so, um, just want to mention that for those of y'all that won't be here, um, that it doesn't come as a surprise. That was the date she was in town, um, because I tried to do it, um, us either in December or this meeting.
And then um last thing tomorrow at 4:30 we are doing the ro cutting for the Georgetown Garden which is a project of the CDBG program, the Sanford Cultural Guild and Hopper Academy. So that will
be at 4:30 at Hopper Academy. And um it's been so long, but what a great Christmas parade. >> I know. I was going to say that too, but >> that was nice. >> That was probably um you know,
>> it was very a very positive crowd. Um I you know, I got lots of good feedback. Um I got to go through it twice. So, um that was fun. >> And with that, we're >> Thank you. >> And we enjoy.
>> Thank you. >> T-shirt. She's like, "She's not mean. Why did you say she's mean?" >> Okay. >> I'm sign. >> I said, "You don't have to work with her, honey. >> Going to be coming back from