All right, show of hands. Is there a veteran in the room? Can you start us off in the pledge of allegiance? Do we have a flag? >> Okay. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the
republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Excellent. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much everybody. So, my name is Lisa Allen and I'm here on behalf of
the government strategy group. If you can't hear me, just raise your hand so that I know you can't hear me. Okay. Um here I'll come. I'm gonna walk around. All right. So, my name is Lisa Allen. I'm with the government strategy group. I am going to introduce my teammates in
just a few minutes. Um, but what I do want to do is just talk about what tonight is. So, we had a great listening session a couple weeks ago and that's what is we're doing tonight. Um, you have two amazing communities by the way. We had a great meeting and everybody was
um just came up and was very respectful. So, tonight we're doing a listening meeting, a listening session. And just to define that for anybody that was not in the room prior, um a listening session is so that we can hear feedback from the community. We're not doing Q&A
or debate. Um obviously everybody is here tonight to talk about the annexation impact study um that uh government strategy is working on. Um we will not take any action tonight. We are not taking any votes. We are only here
to hear from you because you're the community and you know what's happening. So we just want you to know it is strictly a listening session tonight. Um I know you probably can't see this but I'm just going to read it. So what is our goal? We want to hear directly from
you. We want to hear how you feel regarding the annexation. What matters to you? gather feedback and um create the study, the impact study that we can then give to the elected officials so that they can make the best decision possible. Okay. Um
the uh agenda is right here. [clears throat] Right here. Um we're going to do the welcome, the history, um listening session and wrap-up. We have a hard stop at 8 o'clock. Again, last week went great. We ended it early. So, the only thing I do ask I'm going to go over the rules really quick even though we
don't need to. I'm going to um we have three minutes for um for you to come up and talk about your questions. I know three minutes feels like a short amount of time. There's a lot of people in this room and we absolutely want to hear from as many people as possible. So, we just
ask that you keep to the three minutes. If you get to two, I will time you. If we get to 245 and you're almost to the three minutes, I will ask you to wrap up. This is you. This is your meeting in the sense that you're in the driver's seat. We want to hear from you. I just ask that I'm going to manage the room
tonight. So, please do not talk over everybody. Please listen to your friends and your neighbors and what they have to say. They come up, they'll give list of questions or concerns. This is being recorded. Um unlike the chamber room, there are no other um microphones in the
room. So, if you speak from the back of the room, no one's going to hear you. So, I ask that if you do want to speak, please come to the microphone and um don't talk over your friends. That's it. So, I'm going to introduce my teammates and I have here is um Kevin de Roberts.
He started and he's the CEO and founder of Government Strategy Group. We have Chiron Roundtree who is the project manager um on the project for the impact study. And we have Jean uh Chipriani who will go over the history and the how we
kind of got here um in terms of the annexation. So, in terms of process, goal, and rules, does anybody have any questions for me at this moment? Raise your hand if you do. No. Great. Okay. I'm gonna have Ken say
hello and then Chiron and then Jean. >> Thank you, Lisa. Welcome everyone. Thank you for coming out on this evening. So we were retained by the mayor and council to conduct
the annexation impact study. So we are examining all aspects of whatever we can get information on regarding the potential annexation. Our report is not going to make a conclusion as to whether
or not an annexation should go forward or not. Our report is going to present factual information with backup details so that that will enable the mayor and council to make informed decisions about going forward. And we're we've got a
team that consists of various experts from public works, public safety, finance, etc. to look at all aspects of the municipal operations and how they will be impacted including uh financial
modeling to show what the potential financial impact could be and I emphasize could be because we can't make any conclusions on that that's going to be taken up in a process that would follow if a successful vote for
annexation move forward. So that's the gist of the annexation study. We have a team of about 10 different professionals working on it. Uh we've been working on it for the past two months and look to
have a draft report probably within the next 60 days. And now I just want to introduce our project manager, senior managing director Chiron Roundtree. >> Thank you, Ken. Hello everybody. It's a pleasure to be here and it's really
fantastic to see so many people out tonight um on what I think is a cold night as it gets late into the into the winter season. Uh as a former business administrator for several municipalities, you can tell that people in this community really care because so many of you out are out tonight. So,
thank you. Um I just want to kind of follow up and emphasize a little bit of what Ken said about our team and what we've been doing. Uh Kennet founded government strategy group about 20 years ago, 19 years ago. Um and while he won't brag about it, he has put together a
fantastic team of experts. Several of us are former administrators, police chiefs, chief financial officers, tax assessors, uh a division of local government services directors. Um, so there's a group of experts who you are not seeing up here tonight who have
really been diligently looking um, researching, gathering information, gathering data for several months now. Um, so we will compile all of that and put that into a report which will likely answer many of the questions that you have tonight. But as former
administrators and people who have worked for government for so long, we understand that the importance uh of anything is the feedback that we get from the community. This is an unusual study. Um it rarely happens in New Jersey annexations. Um so we have done
several studies. Our company has done shared service consolidation studies, all kinds of uh anal analysis for municipalities and local governments. Um, but this one's a little bit unusual. So, you guys might have thoughts and ideas, uh, that haven't even crossed our
mind, and we really want to hear it. The other thing I will say before I give this back to Lisa, um, is we're hearing everything that you're saying tonight, as Lisa said, this is being recorded. So, if you don't see us frantically taking notes, it's because we have a
team that we're going to listen to the recording and write everything. We're not answering questions tonight. uh first because our team is working on those answers. Uh but we will put together an FAQ. It will be available on the website uh with all of your
questions. All of the questions that we got from the last listening session. Uh Lisa went around and handed these sheets out. If you didn't get one, they are up here. If you don't like to talk in groups or you just want to get home early, feel free to put questions, comments, thoughts on these. We're going
to compile everything, put out one general FAQ for factual answers that we can. Um, we're not going to give an opinion. Our job is not to give an opinion. Our job is to give facts and we'll also incorporate the comments um
as an addendum any comments that we get from from people in the community. So, I just wanted to let you know we're going to sit up here. It's not that we don't want to answer. We want to make sure that we get you the right answer and we hear everyone out. So, that's why we're not going to do a back and forth. Okay.
Thank you. >> Oh, sorry. Thank you. Um, and now we're gonna have Jean go over the second document um that you guys have. Does everybody have a document that they need? If you do not have a document of history and you need one, just raise your hand so I can get it to you before we start. Okay, that's what I'll do. All
right, keep your hands up. I'm gonna have Jean start and I'm just going to walk around and give these to you. Oh, >> hi. I'm Jean Chipriani. I'm not a part of government strategy group. I'm an attorney um held as special counsel for
this matter by the bureau. And the document that you're getting and what I'm here to talk to you about is really what the process is under the law. Um I'm not talking about the history so much. I know that this question of annexation has come up before in Seaside
Park. That's not you. There are people in this room, I have no doubt, who know that history far better than I do. But what I'm here to tell you about and what's sort of summarized in the handout that Lisa is bringing on is what the legal process is and why in light of
that process, the governing body is taking the steps that it's taken. So though it's not common, there is a process in New Jersey law for deanexation, leaving one municipality and enexing to another. And um that has
happened periodically. Um some of you may be aware of different parts of Lavallet and the Tom's River leaving Tom's River and joining with Lavallet and that happened in the last uh 10 to 15 years. Um, so in this particular case, what happened is, as I think
you're all aware, is that the people of South Seaside Park, a majority of them, where 60% of the amount under the statute, um, decided that they would like to leave Berkeley Township and join with Seaside Park. And that process has
been going on for 10 or 11 years. Um they made under as they have to under the law. They got a petition with the right number of signatures and they presented that to the township of Berkeley as it is required to under law. Berkeley Township governing body there
then referred it to the planning board and they had over a process of two maybe three years a series of um planning board meetings with that as the topic to get information. At the end of that
process, their planning board made a recommendation to the governing body. The governing body rejected the petition. Berkeley Township said, "We think that the the impacts on Berkeley are too great and we cannot consent to
the deanexation. As is their right under the law, the residents of South Seaside Park took that first to Superior Court here in Tom's River, then to the Appellet Division, and then to the New Jersey Supreme Court. The New Jersey Supreme
Court in a decision, if anybody wants to look it up, it's called Whiteitman versus Town Township Council of Berkeley Township. Um, if you just Google that, you could find it. Um, and that will give you a much more detailed
description of the history. Um, and it will also give you a description of what Berkeley Township did and their governing body did that had an impact on how the court viewed their decision. And that one of those things was that
Berkeley Township members of the governing body, the planning board spoke a lot u publicly beforehand. I this was a big deal. It was a big question for them and they made their feelings known. The problem with that is that they were having hearings. And so when you're
having hearings, you're supposed to not prejudge something. That was the court said that there was evidence that that the governing body had made its mind up before any information came in. And that was one of the primary reasons that the court found that that governing body was
had been arbitrary and capriccious which is a big standard of that's the thing that you can the government can never be is arbitrary and capriccious and so in that case the court made that determination the process that seaside parks governing body is undergoing now
is in light of that decision and in light of the seriousness of this question because the governing body has a lot of the same questions that you do and there have gone through this process um and uh engaged consultants both
government strategy group and a planner and I'll talk about that in a minute to try to get as much information as possible. It is not possible to get all questions answered prior to a decision being made, but they're trying to get as much information as possible. And I will talk a little bit about the questions
that cannot be answered prior to a decision. But that is also why the governing body is they're they're here tonight among you. They're trying to get the information beforehand and not make any decision until all of that information is in. So, under the law,
and if anybody wants to look up the statute, it's New Jersey statutes 4A colon 7-12 through 27. And if you look at that statute, then you'll know what uh that what I'm
telling you now is true. There's a lot of information in the statute about what happens and the process for the town that's considering that's being asked if we can leave you right so in this case
Berkeley Township. So there was a lot of information on the process that Berkeley was supposed to undergo. There is not as much information and direction in the statute in this piece where we are right now. They get very specific again in a little while and I'll tell you about that. But right now we're in the process
where all it is is you have to consider. So the question has come up from some people who feel strongly that it's not a good idea for Seaside Park. Why doesn't the governing body just reject the idea immediately? So if the governing body were to do that then the people in South
Seaside Park could say could go to superior court and say Seaside Park governing body made a decision and that was arbitrary and capriccious. They had no information. and they have no basis for it. Not you know other than then and I'm sorry this is not you know public opinion that that itself is not enough.
They have to have a real facts in that back up their decision. Equally if they were just to say okay come aboard. We're going to take you in right now. People who um in Seaside Park who feel like that is not a good idea or may not be a good idea or certainly don't feel like
they have enough information to decide whether or not that's a good idea. you know, those residents of Seaside Park could go to go to court and say governing body of Seaside Park acted arbitrary and capricciously. They acted without the information. So, that's really the source of where this process
um that the governing body is engaging in is coming from because there are a lot of factors to consider. Um you know, you're aware of some of them. They're operational factors. There are certainly financial factors. Um because what happens under the law is when it comes
to a vote of the governing body. So it has to be done by ordinance and you've heard a little bit about the process. The intention is to have a report have that report made available. You know maybe there'll be a session to answer questions and that's also happening at
the planning board at at the planning level separately. But you will also be seeing that report and have the opportunity to weigh in. And that's important for a reason I'll get to, which is this. So the governing body considers an
ordinance. If they say yes on first reading, like any other ordinance, then there has to be a second reading and there's an opportunity for public comment on second reading. Say that happens and the governing body were to say yes. Then when that ordinance is
published in the newspaper because it's a burough form of government that ordinance is then immediately effective on the effective date of that ordinance then South Seaside Park would become part of Seaside Park immediately on the
effective date of the ordinance. There is no ability under the law to say, "All right, we'll make it effective, you know, March 1st or July 1st or any other time in the future." If you take them, then as soon as the ordinance is effective, they are part of Seaside
Park. What that means is that Hello. I really personally hate microphones. I'm doing the best I can here. Um, so the second it becomes effective, what that means is that Berkeley Township's
ordinances that it's no longer part of Berkeley Township. So Berkeley Township's ordinances will not apply to the people in South Seaside Park when the effective date of that ordinance anymore than it does to anyone who lives in Seaside Park today.
>> Okay, everybody awake? Um, all right. Yeah. [laughter] Um, [snorts] so what that means is that we need to and you'll see that if the governing body were to consider that ordinance to annex to take seaside
southside park. What you will see with that is also zoning ordinances. So I said that there was a planner um that is working and looking at um the planning ordinances right now. So then zoning ordinances that would cover the South Seaside Park
section would travel along with that ordinance on whether to annex or uh not because if Seaside Park takes it that as soon as you've taken it, you have to have zoning ordinances in place because Berkeley's
ordinances will not apply. So we need to have ordinances in place. And as you are aware far better than I am, South Seaside Park has some different kinds of housing types um than we have here in Seaside Park. So, it's not like we can
just extend our ordinances over. Someone at the last meeting suggested, well, can we just adopt Berkeley's ordinances and we'd have to we'd still have to do them ourselves, right? Because those ordinances don't exist now, but maybe want to do things a little bit differently. There are certain
requirements we have at Seaside Park. Maybe those are appropriate for that section. Maybe not. That's those are the things that the planner would be looking at and there will be public hearing on those ordinances on that report as well for that consideration. Um
when that happens too, if it becomes the effective date, the second that that happens are ordinances of general application, right? um things with the building department, uh our speeding and parking and all of
the other ordinances immediately, if they're an ordinance of general application, then they immediately apply to the people of Southeast Side Park and Berkeley Townships no longer do. However, it's clear in the statute that if there's an ongoing issue, so if you
have a if there's a tax appeal in the Southeast Side Park section that's pending or municipal court matter, anything that is already in place, those claims continue and that's all handled by Berkeley. We don't take over any
existing claims. Everything sort of starts fresh. But obviously things like tax appeals and municipal court violations are based on past actions. Um so if the next thing that happens
after the effective date of the ordinance and now all of a sudden as I said the statute doesn't have a lot of information on what we're supposed to do. They were kind of clear on what Berkeley had to do and then they weren't clear about what you have to consider. That's why the governing body has, you
know, put together a list of topics and and hired consultants to try and make sure and have these listing groups to try and make sure that they're looking at every possible aspect to see if it's going to be the right thing for Seaside Park. And obviously, that's also a shortterm and a long-term
uh consideration, right? Because long-term there there are going to be other considerations, you know, tax revenue, etc. coming in, but short term there are going to be obligations um that are going to uh begin immediately before that revenue starts
arriving. Um so all of a sudden the statute wakes up and tell decides that they want to tell us exactly what we need to do and I mean exactly. So at the same time, the ordinances, if it were on second reading, it were to be adopted,
you would also see a resolution because now Seaside Park has to appoint three people, only three people, no more, no less, to be basically team Seaside Park in a negotiation with Berkeley about financial matters. under the statute,
one of the things that happens if there is some portion, if there were some of Berkeley's bonding um over the last, you know, 20 years that was attribute that are still outstanding bonds. We're not talking about past bonds, outstanding bonds that is attributable to work that
was done in South Seaside Park, then Berkeley is going to say, Seaside Park, you should you pay for that. Now you're getting the benefit. We did this work to benefit our people. They're not our people anymore. They're yours. you need to and the statute provides that take over some portion of that debt and
develop a plan on how that would be paid. They may also say we think that you have to take certain property that own one municipality may own property in another municipality. There's no law against that. So some of those things
like the beach were addressed by the Supreme Court and would just follow along. Other things like other property that Berkeley has are not. So they're going to say, you know, do you want to buy them? We want to sell it. What's the value of it? So there's a financial now after
the ordinance has been adopted. After the decision is made, that's when the negotiation on the financial part takes place under the statute. So the governing body is trying to get as much information as it can now
um on what those you know amounts are likely going to be what our position seaside park would be likely to be you know what are the things that are really clear what are the things that are gray areas where we think Berkeley may take a different position um because we don't know exactly governing body cannot say
to you just in terms of you know taking over debt or cost of property this is the number before we make the decision because the statute makes that after the decision. So, three people from uh Seaside Park and then three people are
appointed by Berkeley Township. In terms of specificity, check this out. On the Monday following the effective date of the ordinance, at 10 a.m. the meeting has to take place in the Seaside
Park Municipal Building. That's how specific they get. They leave you in this part floating around and all of a sudden they want to tell you what time you have to get into the room. Um then there is a process of meetings. Remember we've got three people from Seaside Park, three people from Berkeley
Township going back and forth. You have 60 days. If within 60 days you can't get a vote of four out of those six people. So basically, somebody from the Seaside Park team would have to agree with Berkeley or a person from the Berkeley
team would have to agree with Seaside Park in order to get four. If you do get four, that decision is final. If you don't, which seems likely, then then immediately after uh that's been done
within I think it's a period of 10 days, don't hold me to that, but some set set period of time like that and that kind of time frame, Seaside Park must, not May, must appeal to Superior Court or
refer the decision to superior court, the superior court assignment judge. will then pick three people. No, not the Seaside Park people, not the Berkeley people. Three people of their own, the court's own choosing. And those people have 30 days or unless
the judge gives them more time to make a decision. That decision is final. And um and the kicker is that the costs of those three people are uh born by Berkeley and Seaside Park. So, you get
to pay for that as well. Um so that's really where we are now. Um that's why it's important to go through this process, get this information, you know, seriously get your ideas, the
governing body and the professionals and the consultants have all done a lot of thinking about what the information is that would be useful. What are the things that we have to take into account to be able to put together um you know
reports and to be able to make a decision that has a rational basis because once the even after this process if the governing body decides no then the people of South Seaside Park can still go to court and say that was
arbitrary and capriccious but now the governing body will have a lot of information to say no you may not like the decision we made but was not arbitrary and capriccious it was an informed decision here is the information on which we relied
equally if the governing body decides to uh accept the annexation and there are people who feel that was the wrong decision and they challenge then there's again there's that basis it was not arbitrary and capriccious a lot of information has been acquired
so That is pretty much my presentation. I'll if anybody has a quick question. Ah, the most beautiful words in the English language. Seeing none. And I'm gonna go sit over there. >> Okay. All right. So, I'm going to start
the open forum for everybody, whoever wants to come up and ask a question. Um, again, there's not a lot of back and forth on this. Can you turn up just a touch? Oh, no. No. I was talking to Owen. Um, there won't be a lot of back and forth, but just come up, ask your
questions, or it could be if you don't have a question, you can just state a comment or a concern. Three minutes, I'll time you and just make sure you speak into the microphone. >> I won't take your time. >> All right. James FCR, 356 Roberts Avenue.
The I have to say this, for over 40 years, the people of Seaside Park have been paying higher property taxes than they should be paying. And why is that? Over 40 years ago, the municipal council
refused to enex South Seasside Park. So every year after that, you were paying more than you should have. Now you have another opportunity to add those ratables and they are far higher now to lower your property taxes.
In the zoning board hearings between which heard Berkeley Township financial experts and the positioners experts, they all agreed that if South Seaside Park became a part of Seaside Park, the
property taxes would be lower. Now, concerning the negotiations following the adoption of the ordinance, it's always important to realize that the seaside park then would have a claim
on the value of everything owned by Berkeley Township. That runs into many millions of dollars. Those many millions of dollars are far higher than the debt of Berkeley Township. So, in the negotiations, you could argue that
Berkeley Township should be paying Seaside Park money. Now, if I were Seaside Park, I'd say, "Oh, no, no, no. Don't pay our debt. We'll keep everything we own, and you pay us nothing, and we're all happy, and we just go back to keeping taxes the way
they are, except, of course, the property taxes in Seaside Park would be lower." Thank you. And if you want to just come, you can stand in line or just jump up. >> Yes. Hi, Paul Rasio, 4810th Avenue. Uh
just a a question on process. Um given that once a decision is made, um someone could obviously go to court and and and seek a judgment as to whether it was capricious or not or whether it was, you know, due diligence was done. Does it make sense for Seaside Park to
essentially file with the court to get that ruling basically out of the way, if you would, so that once they make a decision and almost in parallel, they'll get a ruling that says um that we ruled in favor that what you did was in fact um you know judicious and and in fact
was was diligent and that would avoid the uncertainty of some group kind of mustering about you know should they seek uh you know legal counsel to go and seek a judgment. I assume it's a one-time once the once a judge makes a a judgment that it was diligent that that
would end that issue. But again, the question is should Seaside Park uh think about filing for that um court judgment almost in parallel. >> I can't I'll talk to you because I don't want to
break the flow. Alex Gondos, 447th Avenue. Um, after all of this goes through its process and then it comes to the burough council making their decision and now
all of a sudden we're annexed. Why is it that it's going to be after the fact that we figure out sore systems who owes who and so on and so forth? I would think that would be part of the due
diligence now to find out what those numbers are. It's kind of like buying a car, telling telling them what you want. Here, I'm going to give you what you want and we're going to talk about the price later. Now, maybe there's some people in this room who have the ability
to do that and they don't care. But, uh, being a, you know, a Seaside Park resident, um, I would think that we would have all those numbers prior to, not after the fact. Hey, we're going to figure all that after. That's that's
just not making any sense to me. That's I have a couple other questions, but I'm gonna let uh other residents from South Seaside and Seaside Park come up and ask their questions, and then maybe I'll come back up again. >> Good afternoon. Do you want my home
residence or primary residence or or Okay. Pamela Kohl's, 13-34 George Street, Verland, New Jersey. We have a residence down here in uh on 21st A 20th
A, excuse me. TW, excuse me, >> 20. Okay. 20 down here in down at the shore. Our residence is 26 20th A. Um I have several questions. Oh, I do want to disclose that I'm a former zoning board
official and uh I I have questions regarding zoning as well as you know various other questions. So, regarding the gentleman who mentioned the uh uh the budget currently the budget of Seaside Park is
62.8 million. our school, we pay a ratio of 65.5% in school taxes and then the regional high school taxes is 55.7%
in high school taxes or regional high school taxes. So my question is you have and a majority of this majority of the students coming down probably do not utilize the school or regional high
school taxes. They use their primary tax base up in where wherever they live. You know this is just a secondary residence. So, it seems that there's a duplicity in taxes regarding Seaside
or excuse me, Berkeley Berkeley Heights or Berkeley Berkeley Heights. There's a duplicity in their taxes and um so that's one comment. I do have a question regarding OPRA, the open public
uh meetings act, and will you be filing an OPA request to gather any additional information? And regarding the zoning ordinances, when you had mentioned that the zoning ordinances are pretty much going to go away,
um, and they won't be incorporated into Seaside Park, I believe you had mentioned it, they won't be incorporated into Seaside Park. >> There will be zoning ordinances in place. I was saying that it's not an
option to just do nothing. It's don't transfer over without >> Okay, >> thank you. Thank you for that information. Um, so
does the debt include depreciation of police cars, public works, uh, water, and I'm sure there's going to only have to be part-time versus full-time adaptation, you know.
uh municipal employee hiring and um ambulatory services, rec rescue services, fire services, you seaside park already. I know this microphone is seems dead. Um
we already utilize seaside parks. They're there in a blink. Whether it be for Island Beach State Park, they are magnificent. I can't say enough about them. They are just absolutely fabulous. Rather than having Berkeley Township,
it would take 45 minutes for a rescue service. So, I hope um that those services will continue, and I'm sure that they will. um you know if there's a life-saving
uh situation or something of that nature that that would be in you know that would be inclusive. >> Okay. Thank you. I have more but I'll I'll ask afterwards. Thank you so much.
Okay. Wh Yeah. Um that's what happens when you're sure. Okay. I'm fine. Yeah. Um Kathy Fulcomer, 356 Roberts Avenue, South Seaside Park. Um I wasn't able to be at the last meeting but um I did
watch it on YouTube and even knowing many of you because I have lived here for um since 1998 in Southeast Side Park, I noticed that there are some of you that don't realize how long this has really been going on. My husband and I
bought our first home here in um Sou Eastside Park in 1972. And at that time, I don't have checks that I don't keep my checks going back that long, but I know we were writing
checks out to the South Seaside Park Voters and Homeowners Association. Uh, which culminated in 1978 when um we applied to join Seaside Park
and the court agreed just like three courts now did. I don't know how many courts did back then that we would be entitled to apply for deanexation which we did and at that time uh Seaside Park
chose not to accept us but the law at that time was that we could have forced it. All right. Uh but the organization decided not to do that. Now I understand now the laws have changed and the very
complicated uh um it's kind of complicated what was uh the process was told to all of you. So I wanted to all of you to know that for 40 almost 50 years this has been going on. Okay. And
um it was started up again before Sandy. Some of you don't realize that. Then after Sandy, we had to get all those signatures all over again, which we did. And then after that, we went to 38
planning board meetings. Um, my husband and I missed one. We were out of state, so 38 planning board meetings in Berkeley Township. And uh, we were kind of laughing. Our little group was always laughing. What else are we going to do on the third Thursday of every month?
because we would always all go over there. So, um we are very very happy. We know all of you quite well. Uh we've my husband and I have been around here quite a while. We would be totally uh
just so happy to be part of you. But I want to tell you that um we are since uh you've been listening to u my you know uh I'm trying to um you know the the procedures that we've gone through. We
have taken photos. We went to meetings. We had placards. We didn't miss any meetings. And it was quite a lot on our part to hire an attorney, which we did.
We hired professionals as the township. Whoops. As hired professionals. That's all right. I got the mic right here. Okay. Um, so we all chipped in for all those years. And yeah, let me know when my three minutes are up. So for all
those years we chipped in our little community of South Seaside Park. So this is um we are as I said very determined a very cohesive group and we don't give up that easily and I just wanted to mention
to you we've been doing this almost 50 years now. So I hope that we can become a part of you. Thank you. >> Thank you. Okay. I'm just gonna have you guys hold the mic just because the stand's a little weird. So, anybody want to come back up?
>> You're okay holding it? >> Hi, Lois Cordderero, 102 C Street, Seaside Park. I just have a couple quick questions. Um, first of all, how many registered voters are in South Seaside Park? And to the previous lady's comment, maybe Seaside Park is trying to
tell you something. >> What? Oh, >> okay. To the previous lady's comment, maybe Casside Park is trying to tell you something. If it's been going on for 50 years, maybe it's trying to tell you
something. >> I'm I'm just going to say this. Everyone is here. Everyone is here to be heard. Okay? And I just want to make sure that everybody gets the opportunity to say what they want to say. We're friends, we're
neighbors, and we don't always like what everybody has to say, but we don't want it to be personal. So, just please understand that. Okay. My husband never agrees with me half the time. So, all right.
Shirley Crestle, 700 North Bay View Avenue. I was here for the other annexation, and there were reasons why we did vote it down. and it had nothing to do personally with anybody. There was reasons why we felt it wasn't the best thing and supposedly it wasn't supposed
to come back, but it has and we're here to listen to everything. One of my concerns is how Midway Beach works because I know some of that property is leased. Some of it's got the private beaches. So, I'm curious how that works
out if they have a leased piece of property. What then happens? I know some were able to buy their own property, but what happens to the lease property? And I know the rules have changed because with the first one, every voter in town got to vote on it, which was important.
Now I understand just council votes on it. Now, I feel that it would be a good idea for council to realize that we once say we don't want the six of them to listen to us and then vote.
We should have the right to at least vote. Let them see how we feel about it and then base their decision on the voters and the taxpayers in Seaside Park. >> Sharon Resnack. Um I don't know how many
of the People attending here realize that Seaside Park was originally part of Berkeley Township until it was incorporated as an independent burrow in 1898. The land was first part of Dover Township but became part of Berkeley
Township when Berkeley was created in 1875. The initial creation, Seaside Park, was originally a section of Dur Township, now Tom's River Township. transferred to Berkeley. When Berkeley Township was established in 1875, this area became
known as the Seaside Park, three separate words, section of Berkeley Township. The incorporation on March 3rd, 1898, Seaside Park officially separated from Berkeley Township and became an independent burrow. The annexation, [clears throat] an
additional area known as Berkeley Track, north of the original burrow, was annexed on or about May 12th, 1900. The community seaside park was once a section of Dover Township [clears throat] until Berkeley Township created was
created in 1875. Um, at the last meeting, a question about how this would impact the post office and zip codes. Uh, South Seaside Park uses the Seaside Park post office
and their zip code. And if you don't know already, Tom's River is the one processing all the mail from Seaside Park and delivering it. So, you know, the Seaside Park post office is basically a convenience for the
residents in this area. They also um if you want to compare Holiday City, Holiday City is Berkeley Township. They use Tom's River zip codes and the Tom's River Post Office delivers to them. So, it's all based on location
and proximity to the delivering uh routes of the post office. And I I just I I I I just didn't feel that people realized how much we're already
incorporated into Seaside Park. >> All right. Next. >> Thank you. Uh I'm Jeff. I live at 53D Street, Seaside Park. So, thanks for the presentation. This is all uh new information for me because I wasn't here at the first meeting. So, I'm ramping up and trying to learn a lot. So, I
probably have more thoughts rather than questions and expecting answers, but just wanted to share my opinion on some things. So, a gentleman brought up earlier in terms of trying to understand, you know, the the burden that possibly could come to Seaside Park and the
financial issue. So un don't know why that that has to be or if it has to be that way but it seems like this this mystery the unknown and certainly a poison pill for the people of Seaside Park to maybe have to digest after this. Um because the first thought to you know
myself is you know what's the benefit of someone in Seaside Park? we think, okay, lower taxes, but I don't know if this financial burden that we might have is um gonna actually take away that opportunity to have lower taxes. So, you
know, we all think about there's two things guaranteed in life. It's death and taxes. And I've never heard of any town getting lower taxes. So, maybe that's a third thing that we're going to get guaranteed that you you don't ever get lower taxes. So, I just question about, you know, what that really means
for Seaside Park and a resident and the benefit. There could be lots of other benefits that I'm not aware of because I, like I stated, um, just learning and new to this process and I wasn't at the first meeting, but you know, it seems like there's a lot of uncertainties for someone that lives in Seaside Park with
what is the benefits and will there be any tax uh reduction for us? Sorry. >> My turn. >> Your turn. [clears throat] >> Gary Holston, 2121st Avenue, Seaside Park. Um, good question Al brought up
about not knowing the financial responsibility [clears throat] of either town, I guess, right now. But I would believe the company that Seaside Park hired you to uh do your investigation and come
back and report to the council. uh you probably have a good idea financially on what that burden's going to be and are going to share that with the council in Seaside Park. Correct. Do they get that information ahead of time?
>> This is a a an annexation impact analysis. So it will include some financial modeling. >> Okay. And I agree it's very important to know ahead of time. But I think the three people that you're
going to appoint to a panel to look over a lot of this, just for example, the bonds that Berkeley might have right now, um, they can only use the ones that affect Seaside, South Seaside Park where
Berkeley is. Correct. And as far as um tax-wise, does anybody have the final absolute amount of money that is collected just
in Berkeley for uh Berkeley Township themselves with all these new houses and my house is pretty new also. I can't imagine the um financial responsibility of the taxpayers. I know it will go down
because of the tax rate between the two difference if you you know you don't have to do too much figuring to to figure that one out. But uh I think it's very important that the council in this area does their due diligence and looks
at all the financial responsibility and then come back and make the decision you know for the uh people June Corski 114 H Street. Uh, building on what this gentleman said, I want to make sure that after you are finished
with your presentation and you have all the facts and figures and you're presenting it to the council that there will be another meeting where all of us can hear the financial and the other
effects that are going to happen if we join So, I think it behooves the council to make sure that before they make a decision, we get all the information that they have. Thank you.
>> I have two people coming at me. I don't know who's gonna I know who's gonna win. [laughter] Ruckers wins. Uh Jean Dawitz, uh 187k court. Um so I'm
echoing the last three or four comments about the cost and the and the timing of knowing when the the dollar uh the magic dollar figure is. That seems crazy to me that that it's in the order that it is. Um it was implied that the negotiation
process that was in that involved the three people from South Seaside Park and Seaside Park would not produce the required four uh votes. And if I understand it correctly, that would mean that the process would go um to the judge to appoint three people
um and that their decision would be binding. Right. Okay. So my question is who are they? Um, how does the judge qualify them? Are they attorneys? Are they finance people? Are they residents of the town, either
town? Um, and since their their decision is binding, um, this seems critical, seems seems critical. Um, and then I think the first gentleman said, um, he implied
that, um, Seaside Park would be ahead of the game dollars wise. um when you consider the debt and the tax revenue uh relative to Berkeley. So echoing what uh this woman just said um
how real is that? Um and if it's true, the details should be presented to the public because this seems like it's the most critical question. Thank you. You can also pass off the microphone to someone. >> Oh, I'll do that. My name is Chuck
Applebee. Uh 215 10th Avenue, Seaside Park. Um a couple things. I I think like Nancy Pelosi said it, we'll know what's in the bill after the bill is passed. So, we'll know the cost
after it's done, but you'll give us an idea. So, I mean, it it is going to be what it is. Um, I was a big supporter of this over 40 years ago, I guess. Uh, I have a lot of family in South Seaside. I live in Seaside. I still talk to them. They still talk to me. So, it's a good
thing. Um, but, uh, it's been a long time coming. [clears throat] So, you're here for issues. So, an issue I've had is in the original time that this was being done, Island Beach State Park, which is in Berkeley Township, was going
to be transferred over originally years ago. Now, it kept out. They kept that piece out. They thought it would be controversial. I think there's impacts to that to Seaside Park. So, I I think it should be addressed what those impacts might be.
Police services and all that and costs. And if it's in Berkeley, do we then still negotiate with Berkeley on a cost for providing those services or whatever? Or the state of New Jersey, whichever it is. So, it's state property, but it's within Berkeley Township. So, uh I think that needs to
be sorted out. I'd like to know if there's a law or anything where Berkeley could say, "Oh, you get this, too," and then they just dump that on us. Which I think is a good thing, but just what would might happen with that. The other is the uh currently we have a uh land use board in Seaside Park.
With this change, there's going to be a lot of uh changes going on and a lot of confusion. So, I think going back to a board of adjustment planning board for Seaside Park might be appropriate and that costs Seaside Park more, but an
analysis to see how many uh variances are given in South Seaside Park and things like that and see what that impact would be once it transfers over and the case load and stuff would be good for our zoning board and everything. Um, police, I think you probably could
understand all that. Um, but I wish the ordinances could all be sorted out ahead of time, but I don't think so. But the cost of setting up the ordinances to manage uh the various types of properties in South Seaside, which are
different than ours, not just sidewalks and curbs, but uh just those impacts. I hope you include that in your study. So, uh my I'll I'll give my extra time to Alex Condos. Next.
>> Next. Somebody. Anybody? Oh, there you go. >> Relax, Chuck. >> I'm Tom Joseph, 704 South Bay View in Seaside Park. I really have a rather specific question.
If Seaside Park votes for annexation and we now have the combined total burrow and somehow or other we will integrate shore water or at least the water system in South Seaside Park with
the utility in Seaside Park which is part run by the town. Does that combination of resources and wells generate sufficient capacity so that when that's examined, we determine
whether or not we need to drill well 11 because it would be sure nice if we didn't need it. Save us several million dollars and it would uh Anyway, so that's my question. I'm guessing if I can get an answer, I'll read it in the
report. Who's next? >> No, there we go. >> Hey, thank you. >> Hey, my name is Bobby Ring. I live at 119 Surf Drive in South Seaside Park. And I I just like to comment on a couple of things that were said. This is just from my personal knowledge. I'm not an
expert on this. Um, but I've been involved in this process and attended not as many of the meetings as the fulcomers did, but probably about 25 of them um, over the last number of years over in Berkeley. Um, this gentleman just mentioned Shore Water. Shore Waterer is a private utility company
regulated by the Board of Public Utilities and this is a plus for Seaside Park. They would not have any responsibility whatsoever for that utility. The rateayers, we pay our water bill to Shore Water Company. They maintain that infrastructure.
The water is sufficient for South Seaside Park residents. Now, yes, there's a line between South Seaside Park and Seaside Park on a map, but that's not Erasing that line doesn't all of a sudden make that water insufficient to supply the residents there. Midway
Beach is private property. Private property is not part of annexation. It doesn't matter whether you lease that property, someone owns it, or whether you own that property. Midway Beach, the condo association, their beach is all private property and not part of annexation.
Um, I'm not hearing anyone talk about one of the big pluses and that's over $4 million in potential taxes taxes being paid by South Seaside Park residents that would come to the burrow of of Seaside Park. And I would represent to
you that that would far exceed the debt service and the cost of services that could be provided would be provided to South Seaside Park. And why several people mentioned that uh certified municipal financial experts testified that this would result in tax reduction
for Seaside Park residents. Berkeley Township spent several hundred,000 fighting this because we were a cash cow to them and they didn't want to lose this. Um, in my opinion, Berkeley doesn't fully support the emergency services that
Seaside Park and this organization, Tribal First Aids, provides in South Seaside Park and throughout Island Beach State Park. And that's an excellent point that Chuck made about whether that responsibility remains with them or not. The good news is now every single person
who lives in South Seaside Park would be paying taxes to Seaside Park and the financial support would be there. All right? and would provide more funding to the Burough of Seaside Park to support those organizations. Um,
yeah, it's been almost a 10-year process and the burrow, excuse me, the township said, "No, we're not going to do it." The Homeowners Voters Association appealed to a court that said, "Yes, you can." The townships wasn't given up yet. So they appealed to the appellet court
and a three judge panel in the appellet court unanimously ruled that Berkeley Township could not prevent us from leaving. That we had met the obligation, the burden of proving that we leaving them would not be a financial burden to them. Berkeley didn't give up then. They
appealed to the New Jersey State Supreme Court and all seven justices on the New Jersey State Supreme Court clearly said that we could do that as well. And on page 34 of their ruling on the bottom of the page, there's note four that says
that [clears throat] Berkeley never brought it up before, but is now bringing it up to the state supreme court. And that yes, White Sands Beach becomes part of Seaside Park. It doesn't get retained by Berkeley Township. Now, they were recently quote unquote donated two blocks of beach adjacent to Island
Beach Motor Lodge. And I would suggest to you that Berkeley Township would be wasting their taxpayers money trying to fight that that does not also become part of White Sands Beach and also become part of Seaside Park. Um, a lot of people have told me, people who lived here a lot longer than me, that that
property was there's a deed restriction on that property that says that property reverts back to Berkeley Township. So, it wasn't necessarily a donation. Thank you very much. Hi, Joanne Penn, Seaside Park. Um, I guess this is a question that might be
on other people's minds. Um, what happens to the liquor licenses? [gasps] Seaside Park is going to get all those liquor licenses, I hope, with this going forward. But, uh, my understanding is that there's a lot of money involved with that also. So, I I'm curious as to
what's going to happen. Anyone else? Yeah, you can come up. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Is there anyone else that hasn't spoken yet that is interested in speaking? Oh, you know, let me just give everybody
who's spoken a chance. Um, okay. All right. All right. We're gonna start again. >> Hi everybody. Um, can you hear me? Okay. Um, all right. My [clears throat] name is Tony Trouse. just moved into 4th Avenue here in Seas I just moved here in
Seaside Park a few months ago and um I'm quite enjoying being a part of the process here. Um I love it here. It's it's a nice area. I love it here in the winter. I love it here in the summer. Um, and my perspective and what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing, you know,
people of South Seaside Park shop at places like the White Olive Market and the liquor stores and they, you know, fund our local businesses here and our people go down the road and they drink at uh the Crab House and all the other places. So, you know, um, also we're all
adults. There's that old saying, you know, never assume because it makes an ass out of you and me. And I think that's what I'm hearing here from everybody is that, you know, everybody just wants to know all the facts and have a chance to vote on it as a, you know, system to make sure that we're not
getting screwed. You know, we don't want to assume that everything is going to work smoothly. We want to be told and we want to be able to read it and then we want to be able to vote on it so that everybody feels comfortable here. Yeah, we're spending money right now down the street on seven new businesses that
could be a part of Seaside Park if we do this merger. And I think that's great. And hopefully that will spawn more businesses in the area and make it a really great place for more people want to live here year round instead of just in the summertime, you know. And uh
that's all I got. Thanks. >> Okay. Anybody who hasn't spoken yet want to ask any questions. We're good. Okay, you can come back. Just one comment on what you said and what somebody else said. We're being told our taxes will go down.
That's what you guys are here to be able to figure out to tell us. Are our taxes going down? If our taxes are going down, I don't think any of us are going to have a problem with it. But, you know, South Seaside say, "Well, your taxes are going down." If we knew our taxes were
going down, we wouldn't have paid to have this firm look into it all. We have to hire extra help and do all this and you know, we need the answers before we can say, "Okay, our taxes are going down." If they do, come on in South
Seaside Park. If mine are going out, sorry. Anyone else? Okay, I think we're gonna Is there anything else from the team? >> I just >> Yeah, before I and then I'll close. Okay, >> we're not not answering specific
questions and I just wanted to to note we will be doing financial modeling, but as Jean said, we can't tell you what those final numbers are going to be. Um, we'll we'll do projections. We are we have been and will continue to and it
will be in our report what estimates there are what models could look like but there will not be a final answer prior to anybody any vote being made. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear. That's statute. That's the state.
We nobody in this room the council members nobody else has the ability to override that state statute. Unfortunately, not sure why our legislators wrote it that way, however long ago when they did, but uh we have to follow it. So, I just wanted to make
that note, but we're going to do the best at making projections and models that we can. >> Okay. Uh we have one more question. Hold on one second, you guys. Hold on. Hold on. >> Got it. >> Yeah. Thank you. Uh FA Herring, 21 I Street. Um I've heard a lot of things.
I've been here all my life. summers, 20 years full-time. Um, my opinion would be come on in. But my thing is that I feel that we as residents of Seaside Park and
South Seaside should have a referendum to let you to let our council know how we feel because you're representing us. And there's only six of you or three of
you or however many represent us. And you should want to know what we feel about it before you make your final decision. Okay, you can clap. [laughter] Um, okay. I want to say thank you you
guys for coming out tonight. Um, this we're only doing two of these and again, sorry that anybody got turned away uh two weeks ago is room capacity. Obviously, you guys are very engaged. You have two extraordinary communities. So, get home safe. Happy Thanksgiving
and we'll speak with you soon.