##VIDEO ID:46KdXBf1gGg## e e e e e e e e e e Hey Beth is my microphone working okay yep can you hear me too I can that's right I was on a teams meeting with the same laptop and I could not get the camera to work but with zoom it works you know it's so crazy I work with my with my you know with my desktop at work I never have any problems with teams meetings or Zoom or anything but with laptops should it's always crazy yeah I find when I back hear me okay yeah Y and we can see you too am I Frozen you guys yeah hi Mark yeah you're freezing a little Bob and you're muted Mark ah that work yeah all right I'm on for 7:45 so I'm going to take off for a little bit I'll see you in a little while okay thanks sounds good yeah Bob you're Frozen yeah what do we do in those where did Bob go okay I think he probably disconnecting is trying trying again to and so that he has a better better connection or something I know we're supposed to be visible at all times on this commission but at the lake I don't know about other people but I have um I I mean I'm on Zoom all the time and I have to go off camera a lot of times because everybody freezes and sometimes I get knocked off and um so I don't know what happens when that happens but it's okay yeah I'm you do what Bob's doing like just it's fine if if you have a bad connection and we can't see you or you keep freezing it's fine to like you know just disconnect and try to connect and see if he can approve improve the situation and if it's bad enough that your camera's just not working I mean it's fine to have a meeting where we just hear you okay yeah but all right it's 7 o'clock um so I'm going to uh call to order this meeting of the streets Berry Conservation Commission um this meeting is being recorded and I think we have everybody Bob's back with a better connection I think oh yeah can you guys okay you are you are either Frozen or playing good trick you're you're kind of coming and going you know what I'll let's just give B second can you hear us Pub uh while we're waiting Joyce would you mind Joyce could you identify your I think that was Bob's connection um go ahead Mato what were you asking I was just going to ask if Joyce wouldn't mind identifying herself for the minutes guess that's whoever whoever has the uh the name Joyce um we would like your full name for the meeting [Music] minutes she said she's gonna get it up there oh okay right I see Bob I think there seems better yeah I've got you on the tiny screen with the with the phone um can you hear me okay yeah okay yeah I don't know why the uh the computer internet's not working I've I've shoot all of the teenagers out of the house so I should have a good signal but uh anyway I'm on the phone I can hear you fine okay great that'll work thanks for figuring that out um right well we uh I don't know did Joyce get her name up there I don't see her anymore anyway um let's start with the agenda um number one on the agenda is me Thomas from the chair first I just wanted to welcome mayor um I don't think we did a real official welcome we kind of threw it into to the end of the meet our last meeting so just want to welcome you to the Conservation Commission yeah and I think you've already kind of gotten set up with uh a notebook from Mato and some basic basic information I'm getting there getting there I have some of it I um I have I don't have a notebook yet but I I did look at over the regulations that we're supposed to be looking at okay yeah I emailed those to you um so yeah but if you have any other questions you know um reach out to me reach out to Matteo um happy to get you going um and I wanted to talk about our next regulation meeting about the regulations I don't think we're going to get to them tonight um so I had sent out a couple of dates to do another meeting that's that's really just going to focus on the updates to the regulations um I think we were leaning towards January 30th sound right to people I think that would be okay with me okay Scott yeah I think I'm just looking I think that works for me as well okay may what time would it start thought we would do six to eight again like we did last week yeah that works for me okay K yeah that's good okay right all right well let's let's do that then I think um I think that's the best way to get through the regulations um so for any members of the public who are here to really see the uh us to continue or working on the regulations I don't think we're going to get to it tonight just so you know that um all right item number two is minutes from January 2nd um does anybody have any comments or changes oh mat is sharing it excellent no com I no changes a comment in uh just how fast those were turned around that was super impressive so thank you for getting out so timely and time to review but I didn't have any corrections okay thank you for that I wanted to screen share just because Beth had a couple of revisions to this one paragraph and I didn't have a chance to send out those revisions to everybody so I wanted to present those changes to you all so you could see what the changes were yeah I was just sort of adding in some corrections to what we talked about there about it being agriculturally exempt um all right if if nobody else has any other comments on the minutes um and you've had a chance to look through these changes looking for a motion to approve the minutes I'd like to make a motion that we approve the minutes as revised by uh chairman Wilson great second oh second all right Douglas hi con hi Rowan hi Fox I'm gonna abstain because I came late to the meeting so okay um and Wilson I all right next on the agenda site visits update Dan great visits on December 15th we go all the way back there uh Beth and I went out to krol's bog to just talk to them it's sort of informational talk to them about some changes they might want to make to their trails and and what we thought they're going to they're going to put together an noi so we'll see something coming from that in the future on December 17th I went over to the library for another visit um in uh they had spread Hydro seed from the last time I reported on the erosion stuff there that was followed by snow then Heavy Rain that resulted in erosion around the um retention basins uh the chair had recommended mulch prior to my visit but none was applied and uh significant erosion on the steeper sides of those basins had occurred in three of the ponds and the pond closest to the road had actually breached and the water was running you know outside the fence beyond the soil erosion uh fence into the field there again I recommended uh mulching the steep slopes of the pond and filling the breech um we also looked at where they plan to run the electric line in order to run the electric line they had to push out the erosion fence in one spot and they kind of modified their uh their the site plan for how they're going to run the electric lines um and I just heard at the last meeting at the last tour that they the utility company in fact approved that plan so they'll go ahead with that sometime in the future um Beth and I went out to sirius to have a look at the area where they plan to uh site their wind turbine we didn't find any Wetlands so there was no jurisdiction for us there nice nice spot where they're going to put the turbine I'll say that and then on uh December 31st we were supposed to do a a site visit at the library but the construction people had closed up due to the fact that it was New Year's Eve so we didn't do it that day we did it the following um the following week on January 7th and that was a little bit sad um they hadn't placed any Mulch on any of the steep sides of the uh basins uh even though it was really Frozen the day I was out there they we'd had that pile of rain before again another rainstorm and there was a a good bit of erosion um around at least three of the basins where they had pluged the hole in the Basin that had breached that held um but there were other places along that same fence line there on the west side where dirt had gone over the uh cocoa snake tube and was starting to hit the plastic uh mud barrier it didn't go outside but uh like we're due for another rainstorm so the next one could be a problem um in my uh site report I did suggest to them that that was going to be a problem if it continued and they're going to have to clean out the entire basins and shake the rocks out to make them work and um that doesn't seem to disturb them at all they're seem they seem in fact willing to do that in the future I did tell them if they recom you know if they put mulch out it wouldn't be as bad but again um not lots of Interest some of the plastic silk fences had gone floppy again and I suggested they staple them up they usually get to that um and I suggested that they replace some of those silt rolls where it had overtopped and pretty much I mean they're almost underground in some spots so we'll see how how they respond to that our next uh safe visit is scheduled for January 21st and the next one after that is February 4th so we'll see what we'll see what happens I guess well thank you so much for going out there so much and keeping keeping an eye on this whole thing so you're saying that the the um the socks that are laid right next to the silt fence are really uh taking a lot of silt and are are kind of falling apart a little bit and then but a lot of the silt and the and the sediment is getting blocked still by the silt fence it's not necessarily going going beyond the silk fence into the wetlands but right it's like it was sort of a belts and suspender kind of program there yeah so the the plastic fence caught whatever went over those socks but in in a few spots on that West Side um it's it's sort of on a hill and and it's along where they're building and they tramped around and everything and um it was a problem yeah no I think if the silt the silt are starting to deteriorate and really aren't doing their job I mean even though the fencing is is behind them I think we need to ask them to replace you know the the tubing it's the recommendation I made I don't think you could just pull them up and put them back down again I don't think that would work well they no they get so heavy and I mean a lot of them you just cut them in the end and let the mulch stay but what they can do is put fresh on top the only thing the contractor did do was um on the north side of the library building on the east side of that Basin there was a fair amount of erosion there and they had had construction equipment uh located right along the edge of that Basin so they mov the construction stuff away and they put some rip wrap right along the edge of the road kind of where the you know the driveway is which may have helped prevent further erosion there but you know yeah well um you know it's like as long as the erosion isn't necessarily um making in making it into Wetland areas that's one thing we want to make sure and it sounds like maybe the silt socks need to be new silt socks need to be placed in a few areas if the if the socks are really deteriorating um and then the other issue I think you and I talked about is that those sedimentation basins you know eventually the idea for them is that they're going to be able to infiltrate and if if it keeps that the sides of those basins keep washing down into the bottom of the Basin um then future infiltration is is going to be a problem um and so I think I as long as we we've told them that in the end of when the Project's getting closer to being ending if we do a site visit we see there's a lot of sediment in those basins they're going to have to clean them all out they seem resigned to that yeah okay the paper trail and but they don't seem to mind so they're happy they said they they would reshape them and and do whatever was required so that's kind of what they're looking at yeah it's but it's part of construction and for them that they're probably thinking get done what we're doing right now and in the future at the end of the project we'll we'll clean those out once the sides get vegetated and we just need it's all within the envelope of the the work site so far yeah quick question Jen um thank you very much for your detailed description and also the good work you've done on the other site visits too um so uh when you say there's a breach is there anything that's leaving the that's getting over the the Bales and and into the Wetland or wet Meadow while the breach was open the only thing that was leaving the the envelope was water Okay so it was the the sediment was still in the Basin okay so water was kind of like coming off the top and you couldn't see like a a trail of dirt or sediment going there was a little bit because probably a twoot wide section of the Basin it had kind of a rim that washed out so they've gone back and filled that with mulch ultimately they'll have to go back and reshape the end of that but it's holding it's holding now okay I'm I'm a little disappointed that it sounds like there's um repeat failures and things like that and I definitely would like to uh to go with you on that uh January 21st site visit to have a look sure it's the 21st not the 20th right 20 that's a Tuesday yeah 21st yeah j i I had a question um so being as we can't really you know you can go on to the site and I haven't been onto the site because the fence around it so can you describe like what the site is like in terms of basins and um and what you're looking for when you go there and well I can tell you that it's it's either a quagmire of mud or it was a skating rink last time but the whole the whole uh construction site is surrounded by two layers for the most part of uh erosion control there's a barrier plastic curtain and in front of that is the sock so if if if the water is running and taking uh sediment with it it's got to go through the sock usually and through the plastic uh curtain in order to get out into the wetlands beyond the construction zone and some of the what we're talking about though is they already before they even started building the library they built the drainage basins that are going to be the catchments and um they did not get grass seed or any kind of seed or anything out before the rains came so those have eroded on their steep ends they generally have a steeper end on one side than the other okay and are the basins going to stay there after the project is done yes okay and how many are the ba how many basins are there there's one two three four I think is it four I think so yeah and are they in the the North side or the they're all on the west side for the most part West Side okay and there's you know Wetlands on the other side but the water doesn't tend to go out on that side well so just a on Bob's question I think Bob was wondering if if sand and silt have actually gone past the erosion control and gotten into the wetlands but it hasn't gone past the sil fence where the breach was it was it was I don't recall seeing any uh if there was any it was very minor amount of anything it was mostly just water running off into that field but so it was actually getting through the sil fence yeah because the sil fence collapsed no it was still present oh so the water was filtering through it yeah I guess that probably was what was going on yeah okay well so then this then if water running there was a lot of water running that day we'd had a you know a huge storm yeah and and the Basin was full which caused it to wash out at that end yeah it washed out the back of the Basin I'm just trying to Picture This I washed out the back of the Basin and then that flowed to where the sil fence and the the water are and then the water obviously had to get through yeah I guess the idea is that hopefully the wle and the sot fence were catching they pretty much were yeah it was Mo it was water but it was clearly running directly from the Basin yeah okay I'm sure that the soap fence and the waddle took a good hit and maybe again that's the kind of thing that needs to be um kept up so that it if if it rains again and that same thing happens that that soap fence can handle it again that's kind of that's kind of been the caution every visit yeah that those fences are starting to get a little war torn and some of them are getting a little bit holy generally higher up than uh the ground level you know I mean it's been a while and if any of the construction Machinery or whatever has been going by those are definitely worth for wear yeah tightening them up and adding another layer of fresh new waddle is is something we can certainly ask for yes anytime we see I'm being destroyed but thank you so much for going out there all right um and do we have any um upcoming site visits I the only thing I could think of was before our next meeting we need to see 375 locks Pond Road it was a um administrative approval application that we're going to see at in our February meeting um what was the address on that one it's 375 locks Pond Road what was this one um it's an administrative approval I'm I'm guessing it's trees I I don't actually know the application yet because I haven't looked at it um but I think if you to get the name and contact I think Matteo's got it okay we can do that otherwise it's just the two every other Tuesday on the library so far okay great so when when do you go to the 375 lock Pond Road for that we'll have to schedule it with the homeowner gotta yep all right uh item number four is Land Management update Scott do you have any anything new uh maybe one update I um and going back and forth on the west Quabbin Woodlands parking lot it sounds like our Best Way Forward actually was not to proceed with a contract but rather work with the highway department to put that in and so um I do think that was related to the highway department I think there they would use uh the the same grant funding to to construct that work and so I'm anticipating that probably will get done here in in Spring of 25 I would think when conditions are a little bit better but who knows it's open now so maybe they could do it earlier um so that's one update um I do just to put on folks radar I I do think we there's additional work needed at um South Brook Conservation Area I probably I think it's probably been a year and a half ago several of us took a a walk through uh South Brook and walk the trails there are some sections where the trails go through resource areas and I think they some degradation to the Wetland habitats that are there and so I think we we need to look at doing some rerouting of some minor portions of some of the trails that are there there are also some structures there crossings that are are used um by hikers but also by the snowmobile bealers that utilize some of those trails and I think we're going to need to look at replacing some of those as well and maybe adding a new one so that's work yet to come here and like to tackle that here in 2025 go get them um so we had talked to mat's um part of this conversation the ,000 I think that was left of CP CPC money for South Brook um I think it was originally sort of described as money for the consultant to map out Trails but um and then maybe Mato can chime in if you know if we can kind of change the purpose a little bit of that $1,000 to doing maybe some bog bridging or something um I think there's been some emails back and forth uh yeah the so the CPC will be talking about that at the um at our meeting on Monday evening there there are some constraints on using CPA funds for reasons that were not originally part of the grant the town meeting made um but I think that's something discussed by the committee okay great I think it would also maybe just H to do a little bit of work here in the interim on the process for getting that done I I think my understanding is once we kind of have the scope then we might talk to the highway department about the scope of work there see if that's something they can do and um how much grant funding they would need to to utilize to complete the work that's good okay i' I've worked a little bit with uh in ammer with some of the snowmobile folks and you know they would be a good group to reach out to um just to help you know either actually physically help with stuff or provide some funding or something they just they're a good group and they're they're interested in keeping the trails maintained there I did reach out to the gentleman that we had worked with before in Southbrook uh he built one of the I see Miriam's hand is up but I I reached out with him and visited um some about um trying to utilize the same process we did for one of the other Crossings and I was back and forth and then I haven't been able to rec contct him so he might be on vacation or away but I I do plan to continue to follow up with him as well are you talking about Evan Jones or wasn't Evan invol with that bridge I think I have to look up his name it might it might have been actually that s familiar yeah okay um Miriam do you have a comment on that yeah I was just gonna um remind the commission that yeah Evan Jones uh worked with us I thought it was a really good process um because it happened very efficiently um he organized a group of volunteers and Cole's Lumber donated all the materials um I we were able to give them some design plans to use and then um we supported them in in putting together an emergency certification um request because one of the bridges was about to collapse and um the highway department came out and declared it an emergency so it just happened like in the space of like 10 days which was great I remember that that was really great it is Evan that I've been corresponding with so okay and so he hasn't responded uh I was talking with him back in November and then I um it didn't he might have left or gone out of town so I need to maybe get back with him now then the in the New Year okay sounds good thank you Scott for all your efforts all great all right uh it's definitely past 7:15 item number five is uh public hearing regarding notice of intent for 58 Lake Drive um so I'm going to read my little Spiel this hearing is being held as required by the provisions of chapter 131 section 40 of the general laws of the Commonwealth an act relative to the protection of wetlands as most recently amended and the town of shutesbury General Wetlands protection by law on I see Ward is here Ward are you gonna present hi so this is a project is for um we'll call it the squaring off and of existing of an existing deck um that's the existing deck is just outside the 50 Foot no touch from the it's a retaining wall along Wake Lake wola in the backyard of um the the existing residence there it's G the the expansion is supposed to be about 10 feet parallel to the lake shore and about 15 feet in depth away from the lake and the deck would be extended and a Stairway is proposed to be put underneath um underneath the existing deck so they can access the lawn uh next to the lake there's no way for Machinery to get access into the back um so all the work is going to be done by hand tools we've got a at the site visit uh Jim Burns said nine holes I think it's actually 11 that's what we we filed the permit for for 11 hand dug uh holes to put in SAA tubes to put supports for the um the structure which will be pressure treated and the decking will be it's I think it's TX which is what pretty much everybody uses which is what the decking would be expanded to so in order to provide erosion control proposing straw waddle between the work area and lake wyola and any material that's in excess which there probably will be some because there's going to be concrete um poured in the sonit tubes will be removed by hand from the site sounds good um I don't know if anybody wants to see the site plan do you have it Bo electronically or oh you're you're you're asking a lite to do something something I have the site plan I can hold I can hold it up like this this about as about as Hightech as I can get I can no it's not working no well let me try sharing I have it let me see if it'll work oh was born in the wrong century is that you is that you Mato for this this the this is the architectural plan not the plan view but yes are you gonna try again Mato because I I have it I think oh here we go I got it okay a lot of things open right now my wife's actually a technology teacher so I need to up my game I should get get her to tutor me yeah can see the the area there cross-hatched is the approximate deck extension it's really not a square it's more of a funny triangle but that's where it will be and it's actually as you can see on the planet slightly further from the edge of the lake than the existing deck but it's close to 50 feet great all right yeah um you know it's all it's all lawn underneath it now there is one um a bed of with wood chips that's like a garden bed underneath there but there's no there are no trees or shrubs or anything it will be removed it's just lawn okay yeah you know for one thing it's not going into the 50 Foot in no disturb Zone there's erosion control proposed um when we did our site visit we did walk up to um the bank because one of Mark Stinson's comments was um to sort of make sure that that there's vegetation growing along the edge of the bank there and we did see that that they have a a very nice uh vegetated kind of top to the wall there with grasses and um and other plantings that's already that's already there along the bank um there's no dock um and it's all going to be done by hand um so I I have no I the the impact of those 11 holes is very minimal in my opinion to buffer zone and it's outside the 50 no disturb so I I have no issues do other Commissioners have questions or concerns U Bob here uh I wanted to ask so this deck water will be able to just percolate through it correct yes yeah it'll be similar to the to the similar to the other deck there you know cracks between the the planking so the water will just go right down through and the soil there is all very Sandy so there shouldn't be any problem with run off the soil underneath it is are very Sandy gotcha yeah I I I I believe I'm with Beth uh and I'm grateful for the word for the site visit that we did uh um it's no closer to the lake than um what's what's currently there um uh I think it's a fairly uh low impact project the fact that you won't have Machinery down there it'll be all be done by hand um uh dirt that's dug up will either go back in the hole and extra concrete if there's any will will come out by hand so I think uh I think it's a very um um easy project to permit any other comments or concerns or questions from the commission no concerns okay um Mato can say thank you are there any comments or questions or concerns from the public no all right seeing no comments or concerns I I'm looking for a motion to issue an order of conditions um for 30 what are we this is uh 58 Lake Drive actually no I'm sorry I am looking for a motion to close the public hearing for uh 58 Lake Drive motion to make motion to close a hearing for 58 Lake Drive I'll second that okay uh Rowan I have to recuse myself a butter right okay um con hi Douglas hi Fox I and Wilson I so we'll put together um an order of conditions um and we are since this is such an easy small project we are having an extra meeting on uh January 30th which is primarily for the regulations um but I mean I we can certainly I can put conditions and there's no big hurry I mean not that not that you know I'm just saying it's the way the ground grow they're not going to do this until it warms up so okay well we'll put an order conditions together and bring them to uh either that meeting or our February meeting for approval y thank you thank you very much okay thanks Ward all right what time is it 7:37 all right next I think it's at 7:45 live so we have a few minutes anybody have any stories to [Laughter] tell I have a question it pertains to the thing that's coming up next I looked at the um draft CR and lots of lots of lots of stuff uh there was nothing in there and I don't know that it should be I just don't know where it would be there was nothing in there about the payment was that something that lands somewhere else we I think we're still we want to do that um and I and we have the right to ask for it and I did talk to um Gabe the new the interim Town Administrator and she said it it's easy to set up an account for that kind of a thing um I think at this point this is still really a draft CR so we should really be looking at more the um you know what's allowed what's not allowed make sure that's the kind of stuff that we like that we like the way it looks in that world then it needs to go to Donna and for all the legal uh language that's in there um you know if you look at it eventually it has to be signed by the select board it has to be signed by the commission it has to be signed by the Town Administrator it's a um something that's going to take a little while and it'll be good to hear Mark's uh what he's been advised from Berkshire design on on the steps that have to be taken um but I mean that is going to be part of it um and maybe he'll shed some more information on that too but I think also Donna can help us with that part of it yeah where is the slot it's off of lever Road um kind of kind of almost across from pum Hill Road there's you know those departments that are there uhuh if you take a right if you take a right off pum Hill Road is there's a sign there that says for sale right now right yep so it's behind those houses that are right on okay back there yeah does that provide access to that strip of land that was Kohl's that was behind the highway department and behind Mark watkins's Place Michael to car says no so I I don't think so no and is Mark Whiteman the applicant or is he he's the owner um so he's he's um right he he has sort of a large larger paril there that he's um selling and somebody will probably buy and put like a single family house and the planning board uh as part of his approval to be able to do that required a conservation restriction some of the land to be put into conservation so he's got a plan we should we should send you all the documents but uh there's a plan that's that's got the Acres that are going to go into the conservation restriction um you know set aside and then this is the actual document the conservation restriction it'll go with with that land talks about how that portion of the land will be treated okay yeah did did you get what what do you have copies of Mayor do you have copies of the CR or anything so far um I have um I just have the regulations that you you and Gian both sent me um but I I don't have the rest of it yet um so okay well we'll get you this one because the one we just did is over at this point but um this one's going to be around for a while so we'll be sure to send you the CR and and the map and all that so and has this been discussed before number this um h151 yep so I wouldn't be able to participate in it because it's been discussed before and I haven't I've missed those meetings um there's Mark um previously there was a different version of the CR that we looked at and now he's he's had it uh redone um to to fit more into what the state requires for a CR so this is the first time I've seen this is the first time we've all seen this new conservation restriction document okay okay and I'll get it to you tonight thank you yeah miam you have your hand up yeah um I heard you mentioning that you might um approve the order of conditions at a February meeting and I was looking at the calendar and I think 21 days takes you to January 30th and you've got to issue the order of conditions within 21 days after you close public hearing so today's the 9th of January so yeah well I we are actually having a meeting on the 30th and I did just say to him that we would probably do it either that meeting or the February meeting but but yeah we do have to do it on the 30th so we will do it on the 30th you just might want to double check I did the count quickly and so it's either 21 days or make sure it's not 22 days I I you know depends on how you count them but might want to just double check the numbers make sure you have you got it yeah well actually Miriam um when I was in ammer there were situations where we weren't able to get one of something done like this within the 21 days and all you have to do is ask the applicant and if the applicant is in agreement then it doesn't actually have to be issued the order does not have to actually be issued within the 21 days after the hearing is closed and it sounded like Ward was definitely fine with uh it not you know getting to him immediately so I think we're fine um and it's basically 7:45 so Mark hello hello how are you good that's better um yeah this is a pretty complex process I didn't realize how intense it was I'm glad I hired birkshire Design Group theyve did a nice job and uh actually I'm in the dark so here we go um so I don't know how you want to go forward I guess I what I've done is marked up sort of each page where I had questions and I don't know if anybody on the commission has had time to really review it we only got a few days ago but um I guess the the first way I would first thing I would discuss is that and I think Beth I heard you saying something about it is that um the original CR that sve started um was for nhp being very restrictive very restrictive and I couldn't understand why I'd seen many CRS in the past but I'd never seen them be this restrictive for just a conservation restriction so it makes sense now that that's what it was for and now that you were able to get me the correct CR and I was able to get Berk Your Design Group to work on it it seems much more realistic and reasonable but that opens up some items for us to discuss so how would you like to proceed um I think you know I don't think we need to go through word by word I think we just start the commission people who have read it um we can just start sort of making comments on on the different sections where we have concerns if that if that works for everybody um I guess before before we even do that um what did you learn from Berkshire design I guess about the process so so we're going to look at this tonight and we're probably going to mostly talk about um things that are allowed and things that aren't allowed under it and what what you know what we what we would like to have in those sections um and then so this is gonna when it gets to a more final state it is going to have to go to our Our Town attorney is going to have to review it um you know because it there's a legal document that the town is going to be signing right um so there'll be that phase of it and I guess I'm wondering then after that um did berer design talk to you at all about you know you've got to get the select board signing it and Town Administrator signing it and I don't know they talk about process they talked a bit about it that um each it's it appears to be a little different in each town but the um the overall is that one one seems to go after it sign it so in the case of shutesbury it has a select board not a mayor so that would be the The Entity would sign it uh you would sign it also the Conservation Commission on the third page and fourth page and I guess it is um there's a municipal certificate if you to sign that says you're then sign Conservation Commission hereby certifies the proposed conservation restriction is the public is in the public interest and then describe the public benefits and of course that's all described in the document already so then I understand that once the select board I thought the select board would approve it after the state approved it but it looks to me like the select board approves it prior to going to the state which surprised me because if the state makes any changes then I would assume we have to go back to the select board to get the changes approved so I was a little surprised um and I'm going to verify that with birkshire Design Group you've done this before so you probably certainly have more background in it than I do on exactly how that works but am I correct it goes to the select board first for Signature yeah all those pages need to be signed notorized and everything before sending it to the state and then the state it will take their time in reviewing it and um yeah they could propose some changes it does seem backward in that fashion you know you would think that the but maybe it's the state doesn't want to take their time to review it unless they know the select Ford is signed off I guess that makes sense in a fion yeah so um I'm happy to to talk about areas especially the logging area I think that's our forest forestry area but I'm sure those other areas that you guys have interest in discussing so why don't you throw them out and we'll we'll start going after them okay um right okay all right all right so yeah my my first comment is is the forestry section so that is Page seven number 11 um yep so that seems like something that wasn't in that previous version of the CR um and personally I don't I would I don't think we would want to have that in there but I mean I leave it to other commissioners to to talk about it a bit so what I what Burkshire Design Group suggested to me because this is part of a standard CR they didn't you know they didn't put that in it's in the the standard CR that you had given us and or you had given me and that I had given to them and that they asked what we should do with this because obviously um it can parts of it could be real invasive so after I read it a couple times I realized that there's different sections to it obviously the first one that does make some sense to me is uh C which is harvesting for personal use as long as we come up with a board foot amount um or whether it's cordwood that allows people to go in and be able to get you know wood for fires things of that fashion um I'd like to discuss that uh as for permitted activities um requirements of forest forestry uh stewardship all those take the grantees um approval so by approving them saying that you would allow that to be in the conservation restriction doesn't say you're allowing those activities it says you're allowing this to be a potential for the future if somebody brings you a plan and you uh decide as a a commission that as a grantee that you want that to be allowed um for the plan they've require or they've created but you have the right as I read this to say no um they can't do it without your approval um so with that said um I I don't think that's too hazardous to have in there I don't have a problem with you taking it out if you're more comfortable with that but I would like to be able to keep the ability for somebody to be able to harvest to a certain extent uh as long as it's done in a in a um you know a reasonable way and I'm sure in here it explains how that has to be done to make sure it's reasonable and but not just devastating an area inside the controlled area what are your what's the board's thoughts on that so you're saying not a and b or not not any kind of Forestry that would involve you know like the forestry management plan and all that you're okay taking that part out but you're just looking to keep the C which is the harvesting for personal use well yeah I'd like to keep C for sure and then I'm willing to talk about the A and B and um I'm just let me see if I can read this here requirement of a forest stewardship Plan before any forestry activities occur in the premises granter shall submit a forest stewardship plan to the grantee of M's Department conservation Recreation um and any other required State agencies for approval it shall be prepared by Forester include Provisions designed to comply with the recommended activity of the guidelines um address how the forest stewardship plan complies with paragraph 2 B10 and effective for a 10-year period and shall be resubmitted once every 10 years so if it doesn't meet the grantees requirements then as my understanding and your attorney probably should get involved in that um you guys can deny it so I don't know if it hurts having it in there just that if the board has a feeling they don't uh want to have forestry done at all in there then perhaps we should talk about taking it out but the board has the right to say no to it as I understand it even if it's in there um as time goes on we never know what you know how things change um this piece of land wasn't buildable until a few years ago ability to get a to be able to build on it so there might be a reason in the future why um the Conservation Commission or the town would want that to have the ability to have forestry done at this point sounds like the board at least um Beth's convers comments are that she would rather not have that so I don't know if you want to strike it or if we just want to make sure that the Conservation Commission has an understanding between them that um you would not approve a plan at this point was brought to the board and I don't have any Al teriors on this you know I'm I'm not looking to hold on the parcel um and I don't know if it makes it any more um salable uh by having somebody be able to do a forestry stewardship process but I do think it makes it more sailable and more realistic to allow them to be able to harvest an amount for themselves for use boy that was long-winded yeah as a bob bob Douglas here as an individual commission I don't see any objection to uh doing an individual Harvest uh including the notification that you mentioned thanks Bob Mark I Scott here I I want to follow up a little bit on it it's just is trying to sort out what's prohibited and what's allowed here and when I read through and thank you for getting this to us um in part A under the prohibited acts number four it says any adverse impacts to vegetation cutting removing or destroying trees shrubs grasses or other vegetation so it looks like cutting or removing any vegetation is prohibited so that's how legal documents are written it drives me nuts um I've dealt with these long enough and if you do a lot of planning board stuff you start to realize they'll say these are the and not prohibited and then it says notwithstanding the prohibited acts and uses described in paragraph three the granter May conduct to permit the following acts and uses other Prem premises Divi uh provided they do not materially impair the purpose andent conservation values so that's under B um pered that's where that's where I was going to next and I yeah I'm familiar with these but I I do I'll say one area it it can cause confusion or misunderstanding is when you have a reserved right and that is prohibited and uh or a reserve right this allowed and a grant um here through the CR that prohibits the same act and so I I'm just noting that I think some work would need to be done under the the prohibited and the permitted you know under permitted it allows for pruning trimming cutting mowing removal br now albe it it says that would be to main for for insects fire disease but also to maintain the condition of the premises as documented which seems like a hard standard to to Really weigh in on whether or not that cutting is allowed or not and then then we get to the forestry Provisions which would allow for cutting if done under a plan if approved by the commission and then finally the the personal use cutting and I I'm just pointing out I think this for for my standpoint in in having some experience enforcing these you know so it's clear for because all the parties on this call won't be the ones you know enforcing this into the future right and when I read this it's really I I could see how it could be difficult to discern whether or not the cutting of V vitation or trees is allowable on this or not and who would who would get to say yes or no to that so I think it um I agree completely with what you're saying and I think that I'm just going to re reiterate what I said earlier is that um this is how it's done in legal ease unfortunately I don't think it should be done like this in planning board documents it's done like this all the time they'll say these are prohibited uses and then it'll say notwithstanding the the foregoing to the contrary you were allowed to do these uh uses with uh within restrictive covenants so what they're doing here in B is saying notwithstanding the prohibited acts uh described in paragraph three the granter May conduct or permit the following acts under these circumstances so what I think it should say um I'm not a lawyer but what I think it should say is under U prohibited acts it should say um I'm just going to paraphrase something of the fashion that um it's not allowed except as allowed under bitted acts and uses you know so that that would clarify that there are times where it can be done but it's done with restriction so that you can't just go in there start clear cutting Shrubbery and stuff you can't go in there start cutting trees down there are things you have to do like getting grantees approval on a lot of those things to be able to do it so maybe just a simplistic it might be simplistic enough that you under prohibited action that we pen in there that says um it's not allowed except as discussed or as specified in h section b or something yeah I I think for my part mark it the way it reads actually in the prohibited is works and I have seen that done and then under permitted would say the notwithstanding the prohibited but then would need to define something more specific that would make it easy to say you know vegetation removal is not a allowed but it is allowed for these certain things and I think the way that it's worded here it it's I think you know if you are allowing it for hazards that's clear disease insector fire damage that's all clear maintaining the condition of the premises as documented in the Baseline report that's less than clear to me in terms of what that would be so I I would for me I would strike that part what if we did this what if we put in um didn't mean to interrupt you apologize no go ahead I had a thought com to my head and they don't last long these days um what if we we put that anything under permitted acts and uses um well that's not going to work either I was going to say has to be approved by the grantee but that's already in here um in specifics you know so like non-native nuisance or invasive species can be removed um in a manner that minimizes damage to surrounding non-ed species and preserves water quality that's what you're talking about I like who's GNA who's going to monitor that well what what I'm saying is it's not clear I mean you have a lot of other ways you can you can take out like non-native as you just said in number two there I'm just wondering what type of removal of veget are are you anticipating would need to be reserved to maintain the premises as documented in the Baseline report because I already see you know removals being allowed for to maintain the trails right to to to deal with invasive species and so I'm I it's just not when I read that that part is just not clear and I just think we would either want to remove it or add Clarity to it so it everyone knows what it really means so just just to be clear we didn't put this stuff in you know this is this was in this document so it's this is the standard uh that I mean the one that Beth gave me that's that's what we're using and then Brookshire Design Group has used that document and added the specifics regarding me and the you know where the land requirements are are having to put in there so it's a standard in a conservation restriction of this of this level it wouldn't be in the not you know in the nhp restrictions it wasn't in the N nhp restrictions um so it is something that is obviously approved by the state because it's already in this document created by the state uh whether the board wants it in there is another another issue because the board is making a decision whether they want to be the grantee or not on this and if you don't get what you want in this document I would suggest you're probably not going to be the grantee so you want to make sure that you can have this document work for you so I'm all ears I mean what you think is going to work for you um and you have a solution as to make it so it's clearer um I'm happy to listen and if you guys want to come up with a list over the next few weeks of the items you want to see removed or um changed edited somehow I'm happy to review them and uh take them to bir Your Design Group and have a discussion with them to make sure we're not doing something it's going to you know come back around somehow and not work um but I'm I'm more than flexible to discuss any of them here as to how you would like to see them uh or C us go forward with them again I think you have some Protections in here because you know indigenous cultural practices with prior written notice or approval of the grantee um so there's another one where the grantee has to give approval the forestries with approval of the grantee um I think that most of them have many of them have approval like old Trails any existing trails that are shown on the Baseline can be maintained up to fouret wide but new trails have to have prior approval of the grantee to be installed so I think there's a lot of area in here you know uh Trail features with prior written approval of the grantee um constructing a bog Bridge or boardwalks can be done but only with the approval of the grantee uh motorized vehicles with prior written approval of the grantee so I I think this is what again I'm guessing what the state is doing is putting something out there this that um gives the Conservation Commission whoever is going to be the grantee a lot of Leverage as to what they allow to happen but having those in there um as possibilities and then you guys as a board will make a decision as the grantee whether you would allow those when those times come up with when the grantor says can I do this and you say yes or no um I they're the only concern I would think you would have are in there is if the character of the board changes and you don't feel I say board but I mean commission the character of the commission changes and um the current wishes of the current commission aren't being abided by by The Pri by another commission by a new commission um but it does give the commission as the grantee a lot of flexibility to decide whether or not things are allowed or not allowed again if you want to make a list of things you just absolutely feel like shouldn't be in there uh and present them to me just send me an email I'll be happy to look at them and run them by virtu Design see if they've had that those things taken out in the past and how they feel about that and how it's going to work for the overall um conservation restriction are we gonna see the B report at some point well I don't I you know this is all new to me you know I kind of got stuck in the middle here when sve couldn't work in Massachusetts any longer as you know and I appreciate you getting me this the correct conservation restriction I didn't even know it existed because I didn't have an engineering company I'm not an engineer so um I've asked um Berkshire Design Group to start working on the Baseline report because um I wasn't even sure it was required and they've tried to get this document to me and they did get it to us pretty quick you know they kind of pushed us up in the line so as you saw from the email I sent to um is her name Jen or Jill um from birsh Design Group Jess excuse me um I've asked her if she can then start working on this Baseline and uh that'll take I'm going to guess um a little bit of work from us as well or there's not much out there I mean there's the main um we call a woods road that goes out there but I don't think there's a lot of paths that currently exist or trails in the conservation areas I we walked at Beth and I don't remember seeing um I think Bob you walked it with us as well I don't remember seeing much for paths out there or Trails um so that's going to you know that limits access right there L the grantee allows for additional Trails being created so I don't think there's a lot that's going to have to be on the Baseline you've got some stone walls um we've got the the um Woods Road um and from what I can see on the requirements of the Baseline that's going to be about all it's going to be shown on that report so if I can get them out there um to get that started um the sooner the better well well for me I don't know who has um you know had a chance to really read through the document um but for me the my main concerns are the the forestry section so number 11 I don't really know if I agree with that and also the number 13 which is green energy which has to do with um and again it does it does say with with written prior approval of the grantee but to me I feel like if in general the commission doesn't feel like we want to take on a CR that allows um you know construction of a big of of a big set of solar panels and things out there there there's no reason to not take it out of the CR it's even though this is the template that came from the state but everybody takes this template and changes it to what they want um so those two I was concerned about um you know I think that's about it we we talked about public access before and I can see in here that that you went with no Public Access and and I'm I'm on board for that but I wanted to see what the rest of the commission thought about that well it's also not no Public Access it's Public Access we Grant her approval so and let me go back to the there's a couple things you hit there um regarding the green energy Yes again as the board you have the right to say no to it I'm curious and you might want to ask your Town Council about this whether taking it out causes an issue because I I don't know if it could cause an issue for the for the commission or not because it's been taken out uh I don't know if that opens a door of some sort uh maybe that's why they word it this way that the commission it's in but the commission has the right as the grantee um to deny written approval and it doesn't say um with written approval of the grantee not to be unreasonably withheld you know doesn't say anything like that that you guys are forced to give approval if they meet certain CR criteria but that's a legal question I think you should ask your attorney not I can't I can't give you a correct answer on that um yeah we'll definitely get the attorney to look through um do other Commissioners have other sections they want to talk about or comments regarding what you just brought up the green energy or the what was the other one Beth the the forestry stuff no 11 thought already out of the head yeah thanks I um well no I agree with with your comments Beth I have had the chance to to read through it those two uh I had concerns about as well um just to reiterate I also had concerns just with that um the part that we were just discussing regarding allowing for trans utation management to maintain the Baseline report I think Mark that's that would make sense in areas where you have like Open Fields or things that you're going to allow people to to mow to maintain but I I just don't see it applying here and I think it could add confusion so I I would recommend taking that out um and then for the personal use of firewood if that were to stay in and I wouldn't have a problem keeping it in um but it does need to be um um better defined and I think you have some of some of the x's in there and I think those would have to be filled in and if it's a half ACC cord you know per acre per year is it looks like that's what you're suggesting um you know I I think that that that would work for me but those are my for new for the existing Trails I didn't see existing Trails out there either so I'm also wondering do we need language in there to talk about maintenance of an existing Trail if there isn't an existing Trail well there's a Woods Road so you know that is an existing Trail so I think that's where we're kind of yeah so you're the Wood Road okay yeah so I mean you could you know put it as just Wood Road so everything you've just said Scott I'm on board with I don't have a problem with any of that if it makes the board more comfortable um I'm just I think that like you said you should run it by Town Council and make sure that you're not causing a problem for yourselves because those things have been taken out and not allow for the board as the grantee to make determinations as time goes on um and maybe maybe there's a reason they word it that way so just checking that but if that's the if those are the concerns um uh if we can keep the personal use of wood nothing crazy but an ability to take some tree down to be able to use for personal use um I'm fine with the other ones either being left as um approval by grantee required uh maybe put more strict wording on there or removing them completely um I don't see a major problem with either one of those if it was big fields or something and we weren't allowing Agriculture and there weren't any um endangered species I'd have a bit of a concern you know structuring it that way of being restrictive but it does say in this document at the very beginning that agriculture will not be allowed in the restricted areas because it's Woodland so that's already been taken off the table and uh if we take off the forestry except for personal use I don't think that's a um unre realistic at all unreasonable again and I've said three times so just check and make sure you're not causing yourselves a problem as the grantees by removing the the item completely the state seems to have gone to a long a long way there to make sure there's a bunch of stuff that's required by grantee approval yeah I mean are there any Commissioners that really want to see that forestry um not the not the personal use one I guess but the sort of the larger that would go under a forestry management plan left in the CR no part of my concern with that is it's such a small parcel right what yeah I agree I mean I I'm just thinking of the also the future time of the commission to to go through and review plans to approve it for such a if you know the likelihood of getting a a commercial operation in such a small area to to take like selective harvest of of trees there that's where I'm coming from I'm you know I absolutely um believe that um you know proper civil cultural practices are important to maintain Forest Health it just didn't seem to apply to such a a small piece like this one but you bring up two two two concerns of my own my own the first is um whether the board is actually going to re you know go out or the commission is actually going to go out there and review this thing once a year or whatever it is um to make PE sure people are biing or whether you're going to hire somebody the more intricate this is and somebody has to go over and decide whether there's new trails or whether you know they've taken out invasive species and you know making all the determination is going to be very expensive I mean it's going to be timec consuming for somebody to go out and do that it seems like an awful lot to ask um to be able to be seen you know to be able to make sure these things aren't happening and like you said there's not there's not a lot of trail out there already as long as we're understanding there's a Woods Road out there that goes to the back of the property and we sort of allow that to still exist again I don't see any reason why um anybody would have to go out there to do anything except possibly making sure that we're you know I know that land is clean up on occasion um to make sure there's less fire concerns things of that fashion so again I think your attorney will clarify whether you can just take those out or not and there's nothing that has been brought up that I can't live with all right well um if the commission doesn't have any more comments I see one from the public Miriam hi thank you um since the commission is discussing some of the details in the CR document which I haven't seen so I can't really comment on it um you might want to consider um taking a look at some of the other CR documents that the where the commission is holding a CR um both to see how certain issues were dealt with and also perhaps for the sake of consistency I know with the CR for the west quab and Woodlands area we there was discussion about reable energy and also um I think there were some conditions about what types of trails could be built or what the width of the trails needed to be um but you'd have to take a look at the document might be useful the other side of that mam is that there's only been a couple of these Open Space special permits approved and each one had to have a conservation restriction and I haven't gotten copies of those but I could ask the planning board or you folks could ask the planning board for copies of those SE RS because they'd be the most pertinent to this you know it seems to make sense that it should be a template we could follow to a certain extent you don't have to follow what's been done but um to get an idea of what has been done in the instances where a CR was created um to allow the yes I think I think that the CR for the old peach orchard might have been an open space plan um I'm pretty sure that was an open space plan um yeah is you know again it's a little different use than you know a conservation area but um you might want to look at that as well well we've just been we've just been um graced by Michael so he could answer that question for us can you get us copies of the CRS that were approved by uh the four of those um open space uh special permits that were approved I think Mato could do it but there's only been two others so there's Che deari and then there is um um Mark o O's property I think we're the only two and I'm not sure of the top who did the CRS for them um I don't think they were the same and I don't think the town did it but for either of them um so but I think Mato can get them because they should be on file either with us or with the concom that'd be great is mato mat is mato here today yeah yeah yeah could we ask Mato to do that can I I think I can ask can the board can the commission ask Mato to do that yeah that would be Mata if you could find those um the the deari one would be a good one to look at um just because that one also has the uh sort of endowment and the money that we're using to do the annual inspections so that language would be good um and as Miriam said it would be good to have some consistency with some of with our with our previous CRS there's those two that are open space but then Miriam mentioned the more recent one of the West quman Woods um so we can look at those and then also have Town Council um just take a take a look at this um so we can do all those things and then um you know possibly send you maybe a marked up version of of this if you want to send me the electronic I can you know Mark it up with some of these concerns we have and then set up another meeting for you to come back yep that sounds fine it's going to take a while I understand and and Michael I think the planning board understands it as well from the conversations we've had that uh I think I've got till September but you know as long as we're moving forward you guys seem like you're all right with us getting through it as best we can it's a process and a half yeah I didn't realize how long the board the state's going to take um I'm sure it's not going to be quick you go than when you started Mark I got some health issues I'm I'm uh yeah I'm trying to wrap some things up I'm taking off for Spain on Saturday I'm GNA go there for this uh this winter and see if that helps a little bit so wish me luck let's get good luck a nice place to go it is a nice place to go and you definitely don't want we want to get this wrapped up and you don't want to deal with my inheritors so it'll be easier with me I gota keep well um thank you for coming tonight and and getting this draft to us um and we'll we'll you know just kind of pull comments together see what our attorney says compare it to some of our other CRS and provide you some comments that sounds great thanks everybody thank you have a good night thanks good night great thank you Mark all right definitely past 8:00 so our um item seven is order of conditions review for oh I don't think I can say that last name Mel that 32 L Drive we're just gonna go with Che n okay what you said um all right so are are you here Megan to present yeah my husband and I are and we have our attorney Martin oh and Jim here too good take myself off mute so uh members of the board uh in a a few months the the travails and process of Megan and Stephen uh getting their uh project of their you know Dream Cottage on the lake through the administrative process will have reached a half a decade five years and uh so I think you can understand why there's some sense of frustration uh and exhaustion uh on the part of the applicants so thank you for hearing us tonight we hope uh not that we don't love seeing you that we will uh wrap this up tonight uh the the the circular treadmill that uh we've been running on is that uh at one point the applicants were told that the Conservation Commission couldn't issue the dock permit uh until they got clearance from the d uh they had long time ago filed their application paid their fee with the D for the doc permit and they chased uh or chased down a rapbit hole for years I got involved and I finally got uh connected with Miss Hobbs at the d uh and uh she said she had assigned it to a reviewer unfortunately that reviewer apparently disappeared but recently we've spoken to miss Hobs and exchange communication with Miss Hobs and she has indicated that the doc permits in the file all filled out ready to be signed but she's waiting to hear back from the uh Conservation Commission so it's you know now not only are were we frustrated about nobody responding to us now it's this way so we're here tonight uh primarily to request that uh the board issue a clean uh order of conditions so that the title can be cleared up on this it has been uh really stuck and that's not fair to them uh and we want a certificate of compliance we're requesting a certificate of compliance that's all everything has been tidied up once we get that certificate of compliance I'll record it um we will notify Miss Hobs and send her uh the documents that she needs to send us back the uh doc permit which is really secondary at this point right now these folks have not had a clean title to their property uh for almost five years so you have all the documentation in your file uh it's exhaustive uh the apparently according to miss Hobbs the wp the negative determination wasn't sent to them within 15 days but that's back in 2020 and we're not looking to go back and you know argue about that what we're looking for I think it's fair to say is that as you know the house is built it's been inp property's been inspected it's very well done everything is in compliance we are asking for a certificate compliance uh be issued by this board tonight so that they can we can record it they'll have clean clear title uh and then we can notify Miss Hobs and her Department uh that the uh the the order of conditions in the WPA that was issued will send her a copy and then she will release the uh doc permit to us this is a by the way a seasonal dock bur this isn't like a permanent dock this is a season it's not in it's not in the water now came out the end of the summer and it'll go back in the spring uh and so uh that's our request tonight um so I'm a little confused have you seen the um the partial certificate of compliance that was issued and recorded yes but it's it's partial that was last year so that was a separate matter right and if I could just add a little more color when we when our order of conditions was granted back in 2020 it the determination was that they wouldn't the concom at the time I know it's different group of folks but um we couldn't even get an order of conditions until we filed all the paperwork for the chapter 91 license and there was a clause in there that we had satisfied everything that we needed to do for the chapter after 91 and so then the concom then issued us our um order of conditions so in the intervening time it just got lost they used a lot of covid explanations for that and then we we asked Jim to get involved a year ago because there was another matter regarding a a trench that we worked through last year with the with the concer or it was actually November of 23 that we worked through and that's where we had the part because at that point the con the commission um was pushing for you know continued to push for the doc permit but we've filed everything we had the public hearing we went through back and forth with Mr Stinson um we had you know all the plans and everything and it was all vetted in the public hearing um so just in the passage of time there was no one at the D that followed up and then when Jim did finally get the response from the D um the DP said that they are waiting for the um Nega negative determination from shuberry which presumably was sent in connection with our public hearing but I don't know um so so there are two things circular reference there's two things may the Conservation Commission uh file uh reflects that they had reviewed the chapie 91 license application and have no further comments so they were fine with it then uh yeah now it's in our order of conditions yeah which is that to me that right there that statement and then the statement that's actually in the the first F1 of the partial um certificate of compliance where at the last line the applicants also sought approval for a seasonal dock subject to approval of a license blah that that that seems to answer Miss Do's question you know that the concom the noi included the approval of the seasonal dock so the concom did look at the seasonal dock in terms of its impact under the Welling protection act which seemed to be Miss Do's question whether or not we had and then as Jim just said in the order of conditions it it you know that the first the first condition says um the Sho spray Conservation Commission receives received a copy of the chapter 91 license application for a seasonal Dock and has no further conditions so I assuming if she got those two documents she would be satisfied enough to issue the chapter one license um but if if she needs more it seemed like that's what you were asking for I think tonight if the commission agrees with what I'm kind of talking about we can certainly issue a letter to that effect that you know we can vote tonight that we feel like these documents are showing that the commission at that time reviewed the project in terms of the impact of the doc on Wetland resource areas and that that was done and this was the conclusion of the commission so you should be able to get your chapter one time out I it's almost five years we need our deed cleared because we're just going to get sent in circles it it's so I can't wait on the state again there's you guys are the state didn't get the stuff from the concom that they needed and the concom is saying that they won't clear our deed because the state won't give us what they're trying to wait on the concom for so I don't it it's kind of we just need our deed cleared we've done everything we possibly can it's it's almost five years after the meeting in November of 2023 we AG good we agreed in good faith because we had made contact with Mrs hob Miss Hobbs at the D so we're like oh we made contact it looks like it might get going and it's been 14 months and we still don't have it and they finally just got back to us and we needed to have this meeting to connect with you so we respectfully request that we'd get the certificate of compliance and part and parcel with that is we love it if you would connect with them and we get the the the permit we've done everything in our power to get the permit um but we really request that we get the certificate of compliance because you know as as you noted in the in the CER in the order of conditions we did everything everything and we've continued to try to do everything and I mean we just want it closed out please yeah so just so the commission understands what's what's going on um so this order of conditions was issued back in 2020 I think with one condition one of the conditions was for the homeowner to get a chapter 91 license for their seasonal dock um I'm sorry just to interrupt that wasn't our condition was that we apply yes and we satisfied that and you we the process has I think since potentially changed but Our obligation was that we apply for the chapter 91 and our paperwork uh you know indicates that it was sent in immediately that the fee was paid I it was $800 whatever it was um Miss Hobbs you know just as uh Meg said this is back just at the end of this year of 202 4 said that she is waiting from the from the town for documentation of Doc compliance with the WPA or negative determination from the Conservation Commission that's all I need to mail you the signed doc fee a doc license but that's really secondary because uh everything else has been taken care of and yet uh these folks don't have a clear uh title The order they need to get that cleared up they need for both legal reasons and and financial reasons to get that uh cleaned up so we're looking for a certificate of Appliance I don't think there's anything in the records that doesn't that says that they're not in compliance if there is uh we'd be shocked um yeah just so the rest of the commission can see what's going on I think I did I sent you guys the um order conditions and the certificate of compliance but Mato can you bring up the order conditions I asked you to bring those electronically yes I can see here is this the one you're looking for that's the certificate of compliance I think it would be the other one towards the it's probably page 10 keep keep SC keep scrolling please yeah I think it's page 10 or 11 that has the well [Music] yeah right there all right so these are the the special conditions um and then the process at the time is we wouldn't have even received a an order of conditions had we not filed the chapter 91 license applied for right so if you scroll through those special conditions they've all been accomplished and completed right so so I guess I'm going to say just so the commission sees two different two um orders or conditions that we're issuing now where there is an actual condition saying um that somebody needs to uh not only apply but get the chapter 91 approval I guess I'm not seeing that here I see number one the shury Conservation Commission Rees received a copy of the chapter 91 license application for a seasonal Dock and has no further conditions um so that's not necessarily saying that there's a condition here that they actually receive that to to get a certificate of compliance but the partial the partial certificate of comp compliance um so actually so that's the order that's the conditions that were with the order Mata would you mind bringing up the uh partial certificate of compliance so here's the partial certificate of compliance um I think we'd have a dock permit if the town sent that negative determination back in 2020 I believe uh method was supposed to have been sent within 15 days or something and they claimed they never got it well isn't that up to the applicant negative determination no we they're saying that I mean so I guess just to walk through it again we did the public hearing for the chapter 91 separate from the this public the public hearing for the noi two separate public hearings we went through the all emotions with Mark Stinson at the D all of that never heard anything and they blamed it on covid then we rried to to do it and Jim was able to find a contact with Miss Hobbs and we went through the last 14 months gave them everything and now it's come back that they never got anything from SHP for negative determination so I don't know how we would have done that we've provided this information to her right and this is all recorded anyways so you know so I don't know what else we can do I guess I'm just saying that there's nothing that that that the concom was supposed to provide these are the documents and it sounds like you did send them to the state and it sounds like the state and they're recorded nonetheless but like the fact of the matter is she the correspondent that we've received from the D states that the Conservation Commission didn't provide them with a negative determination so I don't know that's where we're in this circular Loop that we don't know and we feel like we've done everything in the spirit of trying to get the stock permit and we just really would like to have the certificate of compliance please so Beth I'll read it to you verbally uh I've looked through the file and confirmed that the license is drafted and repaired to be sent through to the signatur process pending submitt of documentation of Doc compliance with the WPA or negative determination of applicability from the Conservation Commission right and then I think the next paragraph says I I saw the email and it says that she's gotten the order of conditions but she doesn't feel like that she's not sure if that order of conditions addressed the doc correct which again if this is if we're talking about this order of conditions right here I guess I'm confused why she doesn't see that this order of conditions clearly says that the doc was discussed and the con the Conservation Commission saw that they had a chapter 91 application and had no further or free no further conditions so it we're on the same page we're saying from the same him though we are that she should have been fine with this and she should have issued the license a long time ago which is why originally contacted the Conservation Commission to say can we get something from you to so we can send it back just to close this Loop and and but I think it occurred to us that regardless uh everything else has been complied with all things have been complied with and we'd like to get a certificate of compliance from this commission right and if I I I looked at this fairly carefully I don't see any reason why the Conservation Commission can't or shouldn't issue that certificate of compliance right um let's see so this is the partial certificate of compliance the applicant submitted notice of intent applicant and here's where it says that the seasonal doc was part of that application this says F2 doesn't have anything to do with it it's F4 the applicants have not recorded a valid chapter 91 license pursuing to the order conditions generated one and three the order of conditions did not relieve the applicants of any other statutory or regulatory requirements related to the project including all full compliance with chapter 91 since the other conditions specifically included a request for permit for the doc and the doc is still in use F and cannot be issued the applicants all right so General conditions one so that conflicts with this because the order conditions didn't specifically include include a request for it didn't include a request for anything the order conditions um recognized that we did what we were told to do by both the town and the state I'm just at a I have no idea what else to do here like it's been five years all right hold on hold on Steve yeah sorry about that five years definitely no I think what this is talking about is just the idea the conditions that say that all work must be in compliance with all um all done and state and local laws all done five years ago I don't know how I could be in any more compliance than I am right now let me see if I can actually find those General condition one two and as Meg pointed out even that trench work has been done and signed off to comply with all conditions all related statute and other regulatory measures by and theorder do not Rel the per of all they applicable yeah so one and three that they're referring to are under the the just the general conditions in the order and they they basically fall under the idea of uh this project must abide by all other state and local laws um to be issued just so everybody understands where those conditions are coming from it is a conundrum is the applicant May request a certificate compliance again in the future if they are able to demonstrate F compliance with chapter 91 uh and I don't know what else we can do and we now have uh you know we've applied uh I've been told that it's signed and ready to be mailed to us but it's waiting for um you know something from the Conservation Commission we frankly just can't don't trust anymore that we're going to get anything back from the D within a reasonable amount of time uh that this property owner is entitled to have and there's nothing else before the Conservation Commission that Su that suggests that they aren't in full compliance other than this doc Fiasco yeah um well again my thoughts are that um you know I reach out to is it Miss Hobbs or dos and you tonight Hobs the commission can vote tonight to to have a letter prepared that that addresses this whole thing that that addresses her her question which seems like it got addressed a long time ago and she should have issued the permit um but it's that something that's something we can certainly do is that going to hold up the issuance of a certificate of full compliance I I can't think of any legal reason why I'm I'm welcome to be uh educated on it but uh I don't think so well what do you what do you think about what I guess this this the partial certificate of compliance is referring to which is just general conditions one and two that they need to be abiding by all state and local law I think we're being strung along that's all they are they have complied with those they've applied for the permit as was required uh you have before you an email because I I think I I sent it to you right Beth um that that says I'm just waiting it's signed and waiting to be sent I'm waiting for uh a negative determination from the Conservation Commission and yeah that's that's out of our hand when we had our meeting in in November of 2023 there was a discussion of just just doing the full certificate of compliance and we agreed in good faith to continue the conversation with the DP and here we are 14 15 years later I mean months later sorry feels like but I mean the point of the matter is like I really like and I can sleep at night that we're abiding by the laws I think we've done everything to meet General conditions one and three that were following the laws we've we've paid the money we paid the fee for the public hearing we did all of that and we answered everyone's questions and I just think that I don't I don't know why I don't know enough is enough right like I don't know how long can keep it going because now we gonna correspond with Miss Hobbs and she's not timely we've we've waited months for a response and then it's been kicked to someone else um so it we'd really just like to have the certificate of compliance yes um to the keep this on a legal level and your role we we are in full compliance and and we'd like a certificate of that to us to certify that so we can record it and move on um I'll I'll continue to dance to dance with Miss Hobbs or you can join in the in the band um but um in the meantime we'd like to have that um I guess what I'd like to do is um and I'll take comments from the commission absolutely on this is to so we're having um a meeting on on the 30th which is supposed to just be for the regulations but again if if I have I I'll take the time between now in that meeting to either if the commission would like to you know put a letter together for his hobs or just communicate with her make sure she has these order conditions and certificate of compliance and understands that the commission voted on this already and that we are you know we certainly are are fine with it under the Wetland protection act um and then on the 30th meet again about um issuing the the certificate of compliance if you're willing to um wait a few more weeks and we'll give it one more try with Miss Hobbs we've already given it 14 months and on almost five years it's it it's [Music] time I don't see what what's another month going to do like as far as this with the D it are what what's holding us up from being in compliance here we've we've done everything and as as our attorney stated that the um it's ready to go pending the thing the negative determination that the Conservation Commission and not nobody on this current board but that the town never complied with the the law to get that done in 15 days so I don't know how we're being held hostage by that uh that's if you don't mind if I could suggest that Comm if the commission's comfortable and you're comfortable that you vote to give uh certificate of compliance tonight and you could also say that in that vote you would you you'll forward to the D and Miss Hobs um verification of the uh negative determination and that the town is fine with the dock and and then you know take it from there but um I'm just concerned that if we push this off another few weeks and you don't hear or have a response from mobs if you send it in then uh we're back here again and these people are spending more money and more time and commission spending more time uh at a as I said at a sojourn that's been going on nearly five years so um I I I I think every commissioner uh you know in their heart will know that this is what it's fully in compliance um so that's yeah I guess I'm ready to take other Commissioners comments Bob well you're on mute sorry about that um I quick question the um you're seeking certif compliance um have you submitted a form 8A for the COC I think we did last year in 2023 2023 yes and we were told that when we get our doc permit that we don't even need a meeting that we're going to get this thing and the state didn't give it to us because their reasoning is that the town never did their part of it so I I'm just GNA this it's not gonna end well the uh the full story on that is that you did we sent it in and for it's been two years and we couldn't get a response out of them so uh you sent it in and and now they're telling us the permit is signed and ready but they're waiting again so I hope that answers your question I think Bob's talking about the application for a certificate of compliance so you you applied before and you got a partial certificate of compliance um back and we were told we don't need to apply on anything else that we're just going to get our certificate of compliance after this that it wasn't even didn't even need a meeting so I'm just kind of I've been I just want this to compliance please Teo can you take down the what what's on the screen so I can see people's faces thanks do any other Commissioners have any thoughts on this it's a bit of a conundrum the circle kind of thing I'm inclined to think if there's any way we can give them their certificate of compliance that we should try to do that um there there's it seems like we've got a disconnect that isn't going to fix itself you know no amount of talking back and forth is work they were promised something before they've done everything they can do seems to me they've met all our requirements ments in in reality and um if this helps them get their doc license finally sent to them that would you know just close the circle have you talked with d Beth about it before I'm just wondering I mean I'm thinking about your suggestion of uh having a conversation with them seeing what where we are and that seems like a re a reasonable way forward and I understand the frustration and the length of time that's taken and you know I I I don't know that two more weeks is going to make that situation um any any better or worse but I I do think having that conversation with DP seems like like a No Regret conversation in my mind the problem is we thought that in November of 23 and we had engaged with her and we were having it back and forth and she went dark for like four months and there's only one person and then she lost her reviewer and there's always there's been this song and dance for five years we're also paying an attorney to help us along the way so another two weeks isn't just two weeks it's uh and you're in the substantially same place we've done everything to get the the license we're in compliance so so Scott if I could answer your question um I've had years ago I had multiple questions with Miss Hobbs and then she did you know then stop returning my calls and stop answering my emails and then I renewed an effort and had she's not returned any of my phone calls but she did answer this email that uh I forwarded to Beth uh but it just has the sense that okay you know it's the town's fault it's not our fault you need to get me something and if you get me something uh you know then I'll I'll do something uh you know fool me once fool me twice fool me 19 times um I don't think it's fair uh as Janice said to to ask these folks to wait another two weeks hope that the D does get back to us hope that you know whatever they're looking for it when they get it is what they are and they don't have a you know some other reason or or they don't even respond to Beth or get back to us uh the question before us this is all hung up over a dock permit that um was applied for that the town was fine with the application it said it had no further comment the rest of the project is in full compliance which M Hobs and the uh boting division of the D it's not voting but uh is uh has nothing to do with it and and would would have no saying whether or not full compliance full compliance should be issued by the uh by this commission but I you know at the risk of being ridiculous uh Mega Steve know better than anyone you know I'm a lawyer I build them I can pull out the list of times I have contacted them and written to them uh and so you can sense their frustration because that's costing them money again you going early yeah I certainly um sympathize with um the proponents um the uh the 91 doesn't require certificate compliance requires the the uh uh it requires an order conditions so right on the face of it it seems odd that uh you're getting this push back from the Department so um I I I I certainly I certainly have you have sympathy in this in this situation that what uh what you've um stated the uh department has done doesn't make a tremendous a lot of sense to me which is why I have no confidence be that if we wait two weeks and we send something think that you know and something else isn't going to be made up that we're missing this I mean uh their determination and stamina Megan Steve's uh commitment to do this right and to do it by the book and to get you everything you need is admirable um I think a lot of people would just have ignored you after by this time and just gone ahead and you know suffer the consequences of not having a you know a clean certificate compliance but they're they're rule followers they're mindful of their obligations um you know this is a significant uh Investments for them they want to have their title clean that they're in full compliance and there's no reason that they are so so uh you know I'll renew my request that the board agreed vot or confirm tonight that they will issue a clean certificate of compliance for this property all right if I don't see any more comments from the commission miam from the public you have a comment yeah a couple of questions um and I'm just speaking here now expressing my own opinions and and not anyone else's um one of my questions is whether the commission has reached out to Mark Stinson for some assistance as the circuit writer because he's off very helpful in um smoothing out kinks in the uh DP system and I suspect that he could get this process moving the other thought I had was that perhaps a uh a conference call with the applicants and uh the waterways program and maybe Beth and Mark Stinson you know a conference call might also you know resolve the issue um and then the third comment was that I leave the process when you were when someone has been issued a partial certificate of compliance is that um they need to submit a new form 8A with the supporting documentation to show that they've met the remaining conditions and then the commission has a 21-day window in order to either deny the request or Grant it or modify it um and I believe that that is under the state regs um as well as procedures that the commissions typically followed so thank you so back in November when I reached out for help when my wife and I reached out for help to to you marum for the doc permit back then you told us to go to the Mass website and call the 1800 number so I just think that's kind of Rich that now you're uh yeah we offered zero assistance to collabor to get the doc permit 14 months ago so I think your comments are appreciated but a little a little late in the game here we again spent 14 months communicating to try to get them to give us the permit in good faith we accepted your proposal which we disagreed with at the time because our order of conditions said that we satisfied what was necessary and there were no further conditions from the Conservation Commission so I think we have diligently pursued getting this permit and we request our certificate of compliance if we have to do the 148a we're happy to do that we would like it to be on record that the commission approves that we can have the certificate of compliance h no we were told that we don't have to do any more paperwork that that this is going to get issued so it's I'll go back on that recording after this meeting and go through all that that was the that was the Conservation Commission that told you you only need was Miriam on but last November 2023 we agreed in good faith to continue conversations with the DP to obtain our license they have not responded until the the point in which you received the email from Miss Hobs and it's it's now putting it back on the concom so again we've been circular for now an hour it feels like but fact of the matter is I and good faith can sleep at night and I know that we've done everything to OB that license I don't know how else to get it honestly so I I also I also appreciate mariam's comments but I think uh one calls with Mark Stinson and things like that that that send Shivers work well with Mark but you have to go through this doc division which he you know if he can get her to call her back that's fine but that's just further delay in time but more importantly um the last time Meg and Steve were communicated with this Commission they were told everything was in order they would get their um clearance uh but they were waiting for the DOT permit and now the doc permit has not been has arrived despite lots of effort so I don't think they need to do anything else under the law of the regs I think you can uh vote tonight to issue a clean certificate of compliance I can assure you that Megan St will continue uh to work and pursue the D to get that and when they get the certificate of compliance uh we'll send we'll record it we'll send a copy to miss Hobs and maybe she'll release the license then um May maybe not we may have to do something else but we don't want the tail uh the the tail waging the dog here we the certificate of compliance is as you anyone who knows who owns property is the most important thing not the doc license at this point um Kathy Salvador you have your hand up no sorry I didn't think I had my hand up oh I think hi all right I think we need to to decide what we're gonna do here um I certainly feel bad for the applicant I don't understand what's going on with D um you know there's a few things that are at play which which is is the this part certificate of compliance was issued basically saying that they they met all conditions of the order except for the fact that they didn't have their chapter 91 um license yet therefore they were given a partial um what they're asking for is now to have um the complete one issued um they still don't have the chapter 91 license but in the end they have certainly made a huge effort to try and get that um and then the other thing at play is whether or not they need to apply for the certificate of compliance which seems like it would be a typical thing but they're claiming also that the Conservation Commission previously told them that they did not need to reapply that they applied and they got a partial and they wouldn't need to reapply again to get a complete certificate so I guess I'm just wondering again if the commission has any more thoughts on those who sort of decisions that we need to make I think somebody has to make the first step and break this circle and I would motion that we vote to um issue the certificate of compliance and how do you feel about um us kind of voting to just put a I can write a letter that would go to miss Hobs um and send the letter saying that the commission feels that the order conditions um did look at the dock and there was you know no impact to the wetlands and we feel like the order conditions already says that um that would be the communication I would send to her along with the order of conditions I mean and and I'd ask the the homeowners to send us a copy of their doc license when it comes the week [Laughter] after definitely you'll get it immediately when we get it I'll drive it I'll drive it over so there's a motion as there been a second right is it I think it's more of a discussion I'm not sure that was quite motion does so is does anybody else have thoughts on those two things that we're trying to solve no Janice made a motion [Music] I did is there a second all right with no second then then the motion gets recalled or whatever happens to motions that don't get seconded and um does anybody have any more thoughts I do there any legal let the commission speak Steve yeah I'm asking the commission right now yeah I I do I I abely empathize with the the home owners here I do like the proposal path of writing the letter that I think would address from the commission's perspective that that they've met these conditions and initiating the con the conversation with DP I may feel differently if if DP is not responsive to the commission and and if the letter doesn't um uh address the concern then I I think we might be in a different place in two weeks but I do think having that as our next step makes sense to me that's kind of where I'm at all right Bob yeah I I I do think I agree with Scott um to me it is odd and smells a little bit that the um uh department requires a order conditions but doesn't need a COC to to issue that that uh Water waste permit so that is odd another thing that is odd is that um uh the uh proponents could simply uh request a certificate compliance from us an 8A and I I I wasn't here I can't represent what was said at a at a previous meeting I haven't been able to find anything to that nature in the minutes um but um but very simply an application for certificate of compliance it's just a page could be submitted to this commission the commission would have to act on it so um why can't we make that I made that request verbally and we'll submit it you're here tonight you could vote on it subject to receiving it it has a fee that goes with it and it and we'd have to receive the form and and the fee we've paid thousands and tens of thousands of fees just this is this is another thing to just empty my wallet and just string this along for another year and a half okay hold on oh hold on Steve Steve hold on hold on go go ahead B um you know that that's just the that's just the typical process that you know there's a form five years typical process you you can condition the vote on receipt of the application in the fee I ask a question you can sorry thank you um uh should is it possible to go back to the minutes of and to see where the all went wrong um and and rectify it that way um I don't know whether that entails having them fill out another Form and pay another fee but if they if they as they've stated that um there were things that were stated at that time that were you know and they went on kind of like a a verbal honor System then wouldn't that have been in a in the minutes from was it would have been November of 2023 isn't it Poss go back and look at what it states there and then discuss it again with the hope that this could all be worked out by the 30th you know yeah I guess I feel like I mean I understand that you guys have waited forever and ever and ever um but how about we diligently pursue if that's necessary but the commission agrees to issue a certificate of compliance subject to the fee and the whatever that form is that the spirit of the request is approved because two more weeks it's going to be another excuse from either the commission or from the state and then you guys can diligently pursue with the D on our behalf which we' appreciate but I just I I need to know that there's a meeting of the minds here like it just it's it's been a very frustrating process and we apologize for our frustration but it's just at some point we need to get this ball rolling and yes there's been I think I understand I I understand but I guess my my thought is also that the communication I got prior to tonight had no information in it about requesting a certificate of compliance I thought we were coming tonight to talk about that D hadn't issued you your chapter 91 and that I saw the email from Miss Hobbs that Jim had forwarded and I thought tonight we were gonna you know talk about what the commission needed to provide so that you would get your chapter 91 and I was certainly ready to vote on you know having the commission have me communicate or put a letter together or something and get you everything that you need that's what I thought we were talking about tonight you guys show show up asking for a certificate of compliance having not told us you were going to and also not filling out the form and you know Jim knows that you you needed if that was what you were planning to do tonight there should have been a little bit more prep for that I guess is is one point to be made um so I I do really think we need to wait two weeks we need we need the application for the certificate of compliance and the fee and in two weeks we will meet again and I will reach out to miss hob and make sure she has all the information that she needs that anybody I'm going back through the video and I'll send the link to it the Tim stamp and you can watch that okay thank you that's fair that's fair um but I think those are the things that we need to accomplish before the 30th Bob you have your hand up yeah and again I apologize to the proponents um remember uh three of us are new to the commission I have have every wish to accelerate this as quickly as possible and move you through the system um and I think uh best proposal to reach out directly to the state is is a good one because if if you do have a valid order um you and if that's all that's holding it up that should get you moving if you're seeking seeking a certificate of compliance I'd recommend that you you you do that uh application for that and honestly I I would like to see this move through quickly and I I don't think it will take a tremendous amount of time doing that two prog approach yeah we we'll we'll get these application in immediately it's a a one-page application so that there won't be any and but I think I think we made it clear that this is form over substance because they're total compliance but we will dot the eye I can we get something in the minutes that says we will be issued a certificate of compliance next meeting no we need to we need to have the application to to make that kind of a vote um and we need to I need to reach out to miss holl so we're never we're never getting this deed cleared are we Steve hold on hold on just hold on we'll work with the commission two weeks is two weeks but I can assure you if we don't have an answer in two weeks it'll be a different three weeks I agree I think I think in two weeks we'll have more information and we're going to be able to solve it I I'm convinced um but thank you very much for coming um sharing your story and you know I didn't know about any of these things um so I really hope that in two weeks we can straighten this all out good night thank you thank you you all right Michael thank you for for hanging on you're used to Long meetings right this is your thing I haven't been in a long meeting for a while it's bringing back all those memories of the school committee um so do you want me to go or you want to check in with everybody um I think everybody how does everybody feel everybody's ready to move on right and get through this meeting so yeah ready good news Mike here Bob you're not going to get it unfortunately um so Beth asked me to speak to you guys um I have a couple of slides because I think it would just be visually helpful but the premise is I don't if everyone knows that the state in November approved a new clean energy law it was a long time coming it almost didn't it didn't get completed during the regular session it happened after July when it was sort of informal but um it impacts all of us um and so you know the presumption is it's mostly the planning board but it really is not so Beth if if you don't mind I'll just share my screen couple sides cool um sounds pretty how did it go oh hold on I got to I'm staring at you guys give me one second here oh you've been through enough pain I don't want to mess up technology wise for you um okay sh where the hell is it God yeah okay well that's not going to work so I'm not sure why that's not working uh hold on damn damn and if it doesn't work I'll just talk because that's clearly be easier um see I have hey Matel yep if it doesn't work in one second if you don't mind sharing on my behalf that would be cool um and I'll take you up of your previous offer yeah oh here I got it oh thank goodness yeah okay cool okay so and I'll do this I'll do this quickly just to sort of you can talk so you guys can see this nope no oh no okay yeah so this is a clean energy law it's officially with Senate 2967 came out in November and the whole idea is to deal with clean energy so TimeWise the premise to know is that um it goes into effect on March 1st 2026 so um they got that time to figure it out out so between now and then it's the status quo um what it does it's important is they defined clean energy projects to be two things um solar and wind is one category which is that first block and then energy storage IE batteries is the second block and clean energy projects for solar and wind are 20 under 25 megaw and for Batteries it's under 100 megaw there's another category which we don't have to deal with which is large clean energy projects and those go directly to the state but these smaller ones go to municipalities um so in that regard it's it it's similar and currently there's no projects that um are that size in terms of solar in the state um so the The Entity that's going to figure out this regulations for all of us is do um and you'll see with these bullets the four things that they do so they're going to come up with standards around Zoning for public health safety um environmental standards they're going to come up with a common application which affects all of us so I can Circle back to that if we have questions they're going to come up with uniform pre-filing requirements and then they're going to come up with standards for site suitability um and I think at this point they've done none of it officially um they're just creating the division who's going to be dealing with it so the so the question everyone really wants to know is you know do municipalities are Tain to lose their ability to to permit locally that's sort of been the big question at hand and um it's a yes and a no so the yes is that municipalities or things that are small energy projects will municipalities will continue to permit um and importantly the law doesn't take away local bylaws whether it's the zoning bylaws the you know our local Wetlands bylaw um as long as it complies with the do comes up with so it's the is going to is going to Trump stuff but if there's things that they that are not in Conflict then ours would be fine what we lose in terms of Permitting is that we do have to comply with all the do standards so if there's a difference um their standards are going to Trump ours and then there's an appeal process which is interesting which basically if a developer does not like um the decision that the locality makes then it can compal to the state and I'm I'm not a lawyer but I've learned what denovo decision making is which I really don't like and denovo is basically saying you look at it as new so if the planning board went through a pering process and got all this information um you guys did your due diligence if we gave them a response the developer didn't like they would go to the state as if nothing happened they'd start from scratch so that's interesting um the Consolidated permit is really I think where the rubber hits the road um what D are and the state basic including the legislature basically decided is that clean energy deployment in Massachusetts is going slow because there's too much hermitting bureaucracy of the state you know so prior conversation excluded um you know the the assumption is you got concom you got ZB you got planning boards you got Boards of Health everyone's got through over process and it's mucking up the work so what they're requiring is that there be a Consolidated permit from each municipality for each project um one might say is there a plan for that and that there's no current process for consolidating this so I think that's really one of the challenges um I was on a webinar today with under secretary at EA and this is one of the slides that he shared so what they're seeing now is like if you have a small project which is on the left that it goes the zoning process it goes to the you know do it goes to Wetlands um and everyone has their separate processes and then this diagram on the right they sort of see it is it comes to the town it gets divvied up and then on the far end at the bottom over here comes out a Jo a Consolidated decision so that's sort of their Vision but they don't have a process for it yet um one of the things that's important that I worry about that I think we're all going to have to just sort of track is that if say a solar developer and I don't know like I know Bob you know you're sort of from what I heard you have out east but you've sort of been you know doing stuff for years so I don't know how much you've been tracking this but we have five large scale solar projects that are off in the Horizon they haven't they haven't officially applied yet but it's been like at least three maybe four years where they've been talking about doing this um so there's a reality that this could be coming to us but um a municipality has 30 days to determine if an application is complete um you know these are Big complex things so that would be the concom deciding if it's complete the planning board Board of Health if that's required um and then all together we have to decide the 30 days if it's complete or not um and then all told we have 12 months to make a decision um so and that's for all the different committees um whether we have our own processes or not we have to come together um and I just sort of did a look at you know what your guys process is for the concom and you know just looking at the bottom you know this better than I and I definitely I try really hard to follow the wetlands procedures to understand them but I find them really confusing but you have a whole bunch of you know days and requirements for different things so does the planning board um and so they're all different but they're supposed to come out at the end of the process of 12 months with commonality um so there's this concept of constructive approval I don't know be do you guys have that for concom constructive approval so so the idea of constructive approval is that if there's an official body that has to provide a permit and it doesn't take action in the designated time then it's officially approved and so normally what ends up happening like if if there was a constructive approval now like if the planning board didn't act in a timely basis whatever the proposal was to the planning board it would get approved as proposed which usually is not what you want um I think the legislature was at least smart enough to realize that that's not preferable so what they're going to come up with as in the next year and few months is to come up with common conditions so if shsb you know all of our communties working together could not come up with a decision within 12 months time frame the project would be constructively approved and then do will have pre-established conditions that would kick in I'm assuming that that would be Al you know for planning board zoning special permit but it would also be for Wetlands Etc so like everyone and that's my sense is that a lot of this thinking has been more focused on planning boards and zoning and you know not so much Wetlands so that's just my hunch um I don't see the state using that language um and I got two more slides just really quickly um so my concern is the Consolidated process is untested so it's not designed yet um what I've heard this morning which is sort of confirming the concern is that there sort of be a checklist so like we would all town of Sho spray would get a application or a solar project or a wind project or a battery project collectively we'd have 30 days to figure out it's complete and then we'd have 12 months to do it and at the end of the day there' be a sheet you know and you know Beth get sign off for the planning Bo for the concom after you guys vote and say we approve and the planning board could do we approve and the Board of Health could say approve and that would be the easy part if we did it in 12 months if one of us said we didn't approve they don't know what to do so you know then the town would be saying no and then there'd be an appeal and who's so that's sort of crazy and then the last thing you know on the quote unquote good news what both the legislature and the administration said is that they've heard from a lot of towns that we don't have the capacity to deal with these complex projects and so if we didn't want to take it on and said this is too much for our little town we have 60 days to ask the state to do it for us so we can just sort of hunt and have the state do it so that's sort of the the the whole short version of it so I'll just stop sharing um I think just the things that I wanted to share you know with with you all um is a lot is is I mean it's just starting to get communicated out but it's going to get designed in the next year you know next 14 months how the concom works with the planning board works with the Board of Health to sort of do this like we can have our separate Lanes um but within a 12 month time frame um you know like I just think about you know when you've you've gone and got um I'm forgetting the woman's name who does all the sort of the delineation we have right if we if we get a third party to do a delineation it can take a long time right and same with us like when we did the Wheelock solar thing you know we had um a consultant to look at the storm water so you know first you have to agree that that you want to do that then you have to do scope of work for the consultant then you have to have them do the work then they have to report to you then if you have questions they have to go back and redo the report so you know that could take months um so it's it's a little concerning um and like I said I it feels like they've really been focused on planning boards and you know the whole Wetlands process and I get you know between anrs and in wi and the lineations and you know all the world that you guys live in I don't know how much because the timing is different for us like we'll get a special permit and then we have a certain period of time we can well you know we out took two years so you know so it's it's mostly of a concern um and do you guys have a question how you I have I have a lot of questions um one big one for me is that Wetlands um I think sometimes compared to planning in zba and other other groups is so tied to the state in terms of the forms that we use and the fees that we pay and that the D reviews all of our applications um is any of that stuff going to continue are they going to have their own forms like what's going to happen with fees and what's going to happen with with d and getting a set in on the Wetland side of these these Consolidated applications it seems crazy but whatever yeah well well I think I have part a partial answer I mean on the one hand doe is supposed to come up with all the standards the thing that it says in the language is that the Consolidated permit will be for all permits that are required at either state or Municipal level so like if D was supposed to have a permit that you guys had were tied into somehow that would be part of the Consolidated oh so they're going to take the existing kind of Permitting method and just bring it together with the other they're not actually like creating new applications and stuff like that I yeah I well I think in my mind I I think of a piece of paper with these checkboxes you know so if it was if the concom had a checkbox to say we approve or not and the and the planning board did and the Board of Health did maybe DP has one too how you guys coordinate with the EP you know so that they can check it off but the developer is supposed to walk away with this one thing that says I got everybody's input and the appeal process is that the the appeal process goes to one person the director of this division at the energy facility sighting board so if the developer doesn't like it they you know we're all involved in the the front end and then if they don't like it they go to one person who looks at everything a new and makes a decision um yeah that's kind of weird yeah yeah look like you're thinking it's Michael sorry Michael one quick question and then that that person is the the person that they appeal to and that becomes denovo starts from the beginning is that what you said before yeah it's the director of the div of the this new division at efsb um but it's NOA one which I mean I've been arguing even if you get an appeal it seems like the two benefits of not having a beat denovo is that you have a more informed decision because we could forward all the information that we've gathered during the process and two you would think that it'd be less expensive because it's duplicative if it starts to noo you know they got to so and I don't think it's necessarily faster um but I you know I've raised it with Joe Comerford I've raised it with EA I've raised it with the I don't think anyone really wanted to change that um it's they had their you know I think the takeaway was municipalities is the barrier to the roll out of clean energy in Massachusetts and because we have our little committees doing our little processes that we've been sort of mucking up the works so they're trying to unmu it but um so I don't I'm assuming like you know in the wetlands World there might be conversations you know with the the concom association or whatever it is but um it's mostly a heads up that like no one has created this process I don't think there's a lot of answers at this point um I sent in actually the EA on Monday a whole list of all the criteria that from a zoning perspective that shutesbury the regional planning agencies a bunch of municipalities would expect just to sort of start the process because I don't think anyone really knows that Municipal level much of this stuff they just sort of have a high level understanding um so it's not it's unfortunately not very good news I think it's but I think for us if you know if not other towns just not being flat footed because and if we can inform it like I'm trying to inform the state of like what it really looks like on the ground and if you guys felt like there was a a way to do that as well that's probably beneficial um because I I don't well we can I can check in and see what MC is doing they're kind of like the state group that would in a way probably take comments from a bunch of towns and bring them forward um I can check in and see yeah I'm also interested like where you they're going to provide information on like site suitability does that mean that they're going to actually put out there like almost limit what we can condition with with the things when this finally when this is all final and they have how it's all supposed to happen is it also going to come with not only a thing like you're saying that's like a checklist but also a list of like you can't you can't condition this you can't not allow this you can't you know is that what's going to be in there too is um it might be so you know without getting too wonky I'll just say that so current state law in in in zoning um there's an it's from 1985 it's called The Solar exemption and you know so there's certain things in municipalities are limited to um prohibiting so like religious institutions schools things like that that you know towns have limits and one of them is solar that they and it was came from 1985 and that was before um photov voltaics were commercially available so it was really designed about you know if you live in WSI and some put a solar hot water heater on their roof you know and you didn't like it and said it was ugly that the town could said didn't say we want it so it's but it's been there and the effect is that municipalities are limited what they can regulate so shsb is passed four solar bylaws um and they have to go through the Attorney General to get approved the Attorney General rejected our 2023 one um and we're getting sued on our 2021 for similar reasons um even though it is public health welfare and safety so I think one to get your question Beth is like what they design sign is in the law they they knew that this was an yearend for municipalities and they said if municipalities comply with the standards that thear establishes then municipalities are considered to be complying with the solar exemption so you can regulate as long as it's the approved regulations and so my sense is from a Wetlands perspective if do said you know these are the things that you can say yes or no to then it's allowable and if there's something out of that you know those bounds we I think we'd run into trouble is is my hunch in terms of sight suitability the state last year do put out this report it was the technical potential of solar sighting but it basically looked at every parcel in the Commonwealth and deter and graded them on six criteria about where solar would be good so there was slope there was closeness to um interconnection there was Wetlands there was forests um and they graded at A and C and so there's every parcel in the state has a marking and so I think what I've advocated for us that they use that for now you know and basically say if it's got a C it shouldn't be cited there if it's got an A you know and maybe some B's um but again I think they're sort of thinking zoning and they're not thinking Wetlands when they think about sight suitability so there's it feels like there's a blind spot when it comes to Wetlands like they know wetlands are an issue but I I don't think they've they've looked at it deeply in that regard for delineations yeah no they haven't they haven't I guess I would feel like they haven't necessarily come out and maybe tried to control as much the wetlands so much as as some of the the the the planning and um what they've done is in the wet protection act is is given some exemptions to solar projects but people still have to apply um and they have to just use those exemptions for you know access roads to to solar facilities and things like that um but but I still feel like the commissions have still had the power to look over those applications and certainly have the power to to look at the particular site and you know we haven't been very restricted I guess yet but I'm worried I'm worried that this is going to be much more you know taking away some of our our power to uh to protect the wetlands but yeah I mean I think that that's sort of the rub you know is sort of we're closer to the ground so you know you would do the due diligence because it's in the town but I think they see that as slowing down the process and so I I think you're right to be concerned I I wish I had answers about like how it's going to play out because um I I don't know um and I'm surpr like is D is or the regulatory agency that looks at Wetlands yeah so I don't know the relationship of D and D you know like I'm assuming the EP would have a conversation and say these are our Wetlands regulations and our Wetlands procedures and as you develop the official procedures you should take these into account I have not heard d mentioned once in all the webinars that I've talked about so that do just don't like to talk to each other yeah so so I think you know as you know if it's helpful as I learn more I definitely can forward it to you but it it's it's hug yeah it's it's so huge and has such ramifications and I mean the idea of like trying to get our our committees to work together I mean I think individually as in a we could do that but we have to know how we supposed to do it you know like What's the timing how does it work how do you document um oh this is my favorite one and then I'll shut up um so the under secretary today said that he envisioned that this way the Consolidated process would work is that there would be one person basically tagged at each municipality to receive the proposal and then that person would distribute it out to the appropriate committees um and my my first thought as Mato knows is like on the zoning board the only way that a project is officially submitted for a special permit is when you present it to the planning board you know and there's a procedure defined in state law for doing that so giving it to the Town Administrator who would be the logical person who would then distribute it out it's not an official submission um you know so just tweaking mgl around that for us and I'm assuming there's got to be similar things in terms of you know like the whole form you were talking about there's now fors that people have to submit to the concom to start the process to you know facilitate the communications they haven't I don't think they know that stuff yet um so well and then those things I'm assuming a lot of those things are very similar concom to concom because of the state Wellness protection act which is so detailed about you know if an app submit something you you almost want to stamp it the day that they dropped the hard copies off because you got 21 days to open a public hearing um and in ammer that's what we did used to do is we literally stamped it with a date so we knew um but I don't know if that's the same I think for concom it's it's the same across the state but but what you're saying right there and I wonder like with planning BS and dbas to do across the state do they all follow the same processes of of you know EXA what you're talking about when I think I think they are the same across like planning boards but I don't know I have a feeling that planning board compared to concom compared to Board of Health are different and so that's lining those up somehow to make sure that everyone's got the thing in time for their own their own compliance it's going to be tricky um just you know I it might be doable I think it'll have to be doable but paying super attention to it um and it's you know for other towns might not be an issue immediately because they might not have any solar on the horizon but like I said we got five I mean five at one time even without this yeah it's you know it's it's makes your head explode so that would be a lot poor Mato we got five at once poor Mato I know well I'm glad Mato is there so anyone else have any questions May any questions or or Scott now I noticed that um that uh while it does say that it says local government shall determine whether the project application is complete no later than 30 days a receipt and if it's incomplete the applicant has 30 days to correct that deficiency before the application is rejected um and it also does say that if it is incomplete the um the uh local government can give additional time to correct those deficiencies so um that's the only that's one of the things I just saw that um that you were citing Michael yeah I yeah I think the issue is just like we all have to know like we have to get it so like if the Town Administrator gets it and that's the official acceptance then they have to get it to Beth and they have to get it to Nathan you know and the 30-day clock happens so it's sort of it's knowing that they're not giving us a lot of time because they want to push these things through in a timely manner um be interesting yeah so they have until March 1 to figure this all out 2026 yeah figure it out and as of Monday they put out the posting for the director of this division so they're St they're Staffing up they haven't quite you know did you apply just kidding I did I did volunteer to be on the search committee I don't know if they like regular people do that but I thought you know it'd be nice to have a municipal perspective maybe get someone who someone who understands what the pain will be like on the front lines so good for you Bob you have your hand up yeah um Michael you you've been on the planning board right about seven years or so seven or eight I can't keep that yeah and did did you kind of feel like the the whole 40b process where hey this is something different it's gonna it's not going to follow your regular track it's G to going to come in and be decided by uh ultimately you you put an input but it's decided by somebody else it did you get that kind of vibe from it um you know well sort of yeah I mean they on the one hand it's very clear that they want to move this thing forward and they don't want to get stuff put in the way you know on the other hand I don't think they know the details so there's a high level intention of like we're just going to make this happen because these municipalities have to get in line you know we're going to tell them what it is on the other hand they don't know what the what the there there is um and so I think that's the challenge um and yeah I I the overriding impression I gotten from listening you know way back with the legislators and it's Senator Barrett who's the Senate co-chair and then Senator Roy um I mean rep Roy um I think they really just see us you know municipalities as pesky you know that you know the fact that we're going due diligence slows it down and don't we know there's a climate crisis you know just like yes you do so that's that's my sense that was that was my impression too it's kind of like you know we're doing progress here why why are you slowing it down okay all right thank you Mike I appreciate that that that that cander yeah that's all I got with these guys in scander so happy to share yeah thank you for the presentation that was that was that was a lot of good information and um well just going to have to keep an eye on it and I will see what Mac is up to with you know maybe like you said you know providing this point it's been voted on there's oh yeah but but is there is there a way I guess for like a group like mac to still provide comments that will be listened to yeah oh well I think you know so it's approved as a law but it's all the high level stuff and so the regulations haven't been developed so you know do is going to be the go-to they're going to make the standards but I think you know I like I was mentioning I think either it's MCC is that what it is MC is talking to do or talking to D and saying you guys have to like get our world into this discussion because there there's no reg so right now they're the designing regs um see it's predesigned in reg state so this is exactly the time to sort of share information and say you know how are they going to do this how are they going to think about Wetlands you know this is what we usually do um do you guys get that and then you know I keep thinking about like I remember with Wheelock there were you know there was consultation between the planning board and the conom um you know and you guys went out and looked at stuff and came back and said this is what we think um which made a lot of sense um but it was sort of informal it wasn't the formal procedures and it and that took you know time so it's you know I it's both how these things get it together but then also the context of 12 months um because if it's constructively approved it gets back to your question about what will be in there as a Comm as a common condition um in terms of the wetlands um I don't think it would be S side specific because it can't be because it's supposed to be Universal across the Commonwealth so what what would they put in you know as a in a protective nature um it's hard to know so I think those are the inputs it's like okay oh I mean I I can go on forever but I'll just give you this as a good example and then I'll and then you can go finish your meeting so Senator Senator Barrett got the constructive approval was an issue you know and he realized 12 months there will be constructive approvals that happen and the solution is in the law that every quarter do will review how many projects they constructively approved in the state and after two years of tracking that they will report on it and then the state will have six months to evaluate what they should do and make recommendations to change it so if there's all these constructive approvals that happen because oh 12 months is actually too short of a time to do this elaborate process um we're going to have two two and a half years of constructive improv projects so knowing what the automatic conditions are would be really important because I'm assuming there's going to be a high percentage you know I don't know it's 10% 20% you know there'll be projects that are constructively approved and so that's sort of the second part of like okay if we assume that'll happen making sure the conditions in those instances are actually protective in nature and make sense on the ground so that's my final thing so I'll let you guys go you've had a long night but good see you all yeah thank you thanks a lot thank you so much all right I think the night is the night is done um unless anybody has anything else to say that was interesting um let's have a motion to adjourn can I ask a question yes oh you froze um I'm froze yeah um so the I think I I think I know the answer because um but when we're looking at the regulations I just um we're just coming back to the meeting to to just um verbally say what our what are suggested or you know changes that we would like as to the regulations or is there should we putting them in the comment section I'm like I think it was half and half last time and and yeah so yeah that that sort of changed since the way my plan originally um so I'm not going to share the document anymore just to just to go the easiest way to avoid open meeting law basically um so so I think send I'll send out because I'm I stopped sharing so I'll send out um the current version of the regulations you guys go through it if you're comfortable um sending me individually your comments on it but don't you know just directly to me don't share with anybody else in the commission yep then I will go through the document and make those changes and mark them who they're from so that then when we come to the meeting next time we've got a document that has all the comments in it and then we'll just go through those sections and talk about each of everybody's comments okay that way otherwise if you don't feel comfortable sending it to me then we can just your comments can just be brought verbally at the meeting you know it's it's your choice that's okay that's helpful thank thank you sure um right motion to adjourn I so move second that all right con hi Douglas hi Fox hi Rowan hi and Wilson I thank you everybody for staying late thank you thanks everybody all right good night good night