Hi, Haley. >> Hey. >> How's it going? >> Good. How are you? >> I'm doing all right. So, this is about that um thing you mentioned the other night when we saw the grant. >> The grant. Yes.
>> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, Melissa, I think this is your meeting to run if you want. if you want to accept that mission. >> Sounds like what's that uh thing on television that way back if you accept this mission.
>> Yep. >> That was the intent. >> I figured as much. >> You're muted. >> Out of practice. Um, we haven't done one solely Zoom for a long time. Haley, is there um people logging in at
the moment to in the waiting room? I don't want to start if everybody's not in. >> Um, >> so far we're good. >> Okay, let me move you guys to this other screen so I can see my >> Yeah, I'm leaving at 5:30. I have another event at 6. Oh, thank you for
letting us know, Ellen, >> because right now my committee has a has a majority. >> Okay, so let's get started. So people who need to call themselves to order can. Um, okay. So, um, I will start the
select board meeting for, uh, wow, December 16th, 2025 at 5:00 p.m. Um, this is a joint committee meeting and so let me see. Anyone who has a majority, would you like to call yourselves to order?
>> I'll call ECAP to order at 6:01. >> Okay. >> I'll call the buildings. >> Go ahead. I'll call the buildings committee to order at 501. >> Okay. >> I call capital planning to order at 501. >> Okay.
>> Is there anybody else? Is there a FinCom? >> I think I only count three FinCom members, but I'm expecting at least a fourth. So, but I don't think they're here just yet. So, I might I might need to call the FinCon to order in uh in a
little bit, but not just yet. All right. School committee only has two people, but if um Jeremy joins, then we'll have a quorum. >> Okay. Just um jump in if you see your quorums up here, we can invite you to order. Um so we're bringing this meeting
together to have a discussion about clean energy funding opportunities and Michael Dara had brought to the select board um some options and since he is the best first I will turn it over to him to explain those options.
>> Sure. Thank you Melissa. And I I will say this is really cool to see everybody here. I love our I love our collaborative effort. Um, so to try to be on task, um, if for those of you who've been recent town meetings, we've
been approving a variety of clean energy resolutions and bylaws, um, with the goal of achieving what's called climate leader community status, which, you know, Shoot has been a green community for a while. This is like the new iteration of green communities with the
idea of pushing municipalities in the Commonwealth to do more climate related work. So in Western Mass, there's maybe a handful of communities that have achieved that. As of finalizing our decarbonization roadmap, which you all probably got from
Brennan as a handout, that was the last thing. So we applied for community litter status a couple weeks ago. We should find out in January. um there's no reason we shouldn't get it. Um so that was sort of the I think one of the
big things to sort of trigger our coming to the select board and talking about this because all of a sudden we were open for eligibility for community leader grants which is one of the ones we're looking at which is up to 1 million bucks. Um the other part of it more practically speaking is that in the
decarbonization roadmap which huge kudos to Stephen Dolas and Frank um for the inventory that they provided because it really was the groundwork um that set the stage but basically they and then with the decarbonization road map looked
at the energy usage of all the municipal buildings we have in town um and looked at sort of the systems what the electrical uses and then with the it was I really appreciate it with an eye towards what a town could afford.
So on a rolling basis knowing that we can't do it all at the same time because we couldn't afford it. And so one of the things in the report is this um event trigger map which basically looks at what things would come up and get queued
up for us to do first. So HVAC for example or you know we have to do the envelopes. So that's one of the things that sort of did it. And then the last thing that really motivated was um Rita coming to me because she's on the MN Spear building, we're now calling it a
building as opposed to a library um reuse committee um because there's going to be needs there. And so the biggest user of energy in town is the school. And so what the road map says is if you're going to do an intervention and
really sort of decarbonize, focus on the school. And so there's uh something we could do. EAC met. We were recommending a ground source heat um system, but we can talk about that. But focusing on the school was a big thing, high impact, but then also right in front of her eyeballs
is probably the spear. And so trying to figure out if we have these opportunities, either the climate leader grant and then there's this green schoolworks grant, which is really big money. Um, and then the last thing I'll say is I'm not sure about our competitiveness with green schoolworks because there's lots of districts, but I
think we're highly competitive in the climate leader because there's so many community so many fewer communities in the pool. You know, often times what happens is you get these comm everyone sort of jumps in and then the competitiveness increases and the little towns and especially the little towns in
Western Mass, you know, stop being competitive. So, we've got this moment in time where there's not a lot of people competing with us. Um, and if we can get some money, that would be great. So, that's my lead into it. Um, and it just seemed that this is a multiple
perspective conversation. You know, ECAT can't do it, Select Board can't do it, FINCOM can't do it, buildings can't do it. We al, you know, school can't do it. We also have to bring our brains together and figure out priorities. So, that was the idea. Anyone
else want to chime in of the ECAC or building committee just since you guys have been closer to it? >> Uh, well actually AJ, you should call the finance committee together first. >> Yes. Thank you. We've had a couple additional members join, so I'm going to
call the fin to order at 506. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. for the building committees as um uh requested by the reuse committee and through Michael
we started mass saved and is it rev is it re I'm hearing a background so anyway um we did a uh energy audit of uh the town hall in MN spear library last week.
It'll take a little while to get together. I spent today getting all the old fuel bills out for a year. They have to look at the the whole thing and we'll be able to go forward uh with an energy audit in the future on
those two buildings. Talked to Michael Dier and we're going to do the school next. And I think the schools, you know, the priority of the school is the system's old. It breaks down a lot. It'd be nice to get a big loan to replace it. So, that's where we are now.
Thank you, Anna, for smiling. >> Who's doing the Who's doing these audits? Frank, >> it's um Energy Source. It's a a company that does all the public utility, all the public towns. It's not like Mass Saves
has different entities that do residential, industrial, and this is the one that does public utilities or the division has public utilities. And we kind of lucked out because I called Mass Saves. They forward the information. They happen to be in this area doing an
audit uh in the afternoon. So, they came right away. So, that was pretty good. So, it was it happened quickly. Um and you know they they're asking you know they're also I think a subcontractor is how they work. Uh but when you do big bids they you have to do
they understand you have to uh have three big bids uh for the state. So very encouraging. Uh they talked about different things. The MNSpear library they feel can be electrified very easily uh and go that route rather than a heat
pump or something like that. and we'll talk about town hall once they get the oil bills and hopefully we'll talk about the school in the future. So that's what I have to offer and it it strikes me it might be helpful just for everyone if I just go over like
the two big grant opportunities just to sort of ground things. Um and Nate if or Anna if I miss something let me know. Um, so in terms of the climate leader grant, um, let me just
get this thing out of the way. Um, where'd it go? There we go. It doesn't want to show me the screen. That's annoying. Um, oh, give me one second, you guys. Sorry about that. Um, well, I'm going to wing it and just
see what I remember. But um the big the big thing is that um the climate leader I believe is due on February 6th and the green schools is due on February 16th. Both of which are soon given that we
have a holiday in between. Um and we have to do certain things. So, for the green school, one of the things they have to do, which references what Frank was talking about, is if you're asking for more than a million dollars, you have to get uh a comprehensive building assessment, which
would be the Mass A one that Frank has queued up. So, um you know, that would be your requirement. you also have to be able to um within reason engage a contractor, but that the school one you can get up to $3 million in a grant and
then if you are able to demonstrate that you can apply to the feds for the 30% tax um investment credit which still exists for heat pumps and for batteries um you can get up to 5 million and the deal there is you could ask for 5
million then when you go through the whole process with the feds. Whatever money you get back from the feds, you pass back to the state so that they can reuse it. But um we would have we would have $5 million. And for if we were to go forward with the heat pump, we don't know what the dollar amount is. I think
maybe Nate could talk to that a little bit, but that's a big ticket item in terms of the climate leader. And that that's just only one deadline. It's the February 13th. The climate leader, there's two opportunities. You can apply in February and you can apply in August.
Um, so we wouldn't have to do both for say if we did the school and the heat pump, we wouldn't have to do both necessarily, but we could. We could also consider, you know, doing climate leader for the spear. Um, if we wanted to do something like that. So, that's sort of in the dynamic, but there's up to a
million dollars for climate leader. Like I said, we're probably highly competitive for that one. Um, and if we can't get our act together for February, we can do it in August. Um, so there's lots of moving parts in terms of being strategic in this. Um, Nate, did I leave anything out or add about the green
school since I can't see my cheat cheat sheet? >> I think those were the the main the main bullets uh to to take away from that. So I you know what I what I was saying the questions really are like what are
the priorities for town from a physical perspective? We all know we're in a really hurting financial situation. I think neither of these grants has a match which is great. Um so it's just you know aside from the sweat of getting them it's free money. Um, but
nonetheless, you know, if we couldn't just say we got $5 million from the school thing and it was five and a half million, we'd have to have a discussion about is it worth getting the 5 million and what do we do about the remaining money? And we don't have a costed out yet, so we don't know. Um, so those are
I think those are some of the questions. Um Melissa, you want to recognize people? >> Uh Gail, go ahead. I got it. Thanks, Mike. >> Um I'm wondering if we know what the various agencies want in terms to see in terms of their applications. So what do
we need to show the green schools for instance that we are worthy of even contemplating for something as massive as a geothermal system install? >> Uh Gail I might be able to um to feel
that one. Um so their uh you know their overarching goal is to um facilitate the transition away from fossil fuels and to um have healthy schools. And one of the first um uh kinds of technology that
they highlight as an example of what they would like to see is uh ground source uh heat pumps in schools. um and these kinds of retrofits where you're uh you're you know pivoting away from an oil heater uh to uh something cleaner
like uh like a ground source heat pump. Um so I think that's like that is one of the big ones. Um they do prioritize uh school districts that serve uh higher
numbers of low-income students. Um but but that's not a binary, right? You don't have to have a a certain threshold necessarily, but um they they do factor that in. Um but um yeah, I think the
Nate and and again there are many different potential projects that you might undertake under you know this the umbrella of funding opportunities that we're discussing this evening. Um but specifically on this point of you know the green schoolworks
um program uh the heat pump in particular aligns well uh given that we have and pardon if I if I blather a little bit but um we we have done we are we have checked the boxes
with climate leaders. Um we do have the decarbonization roadmap that flags this um this oil heater as a as a near-term thing. Um I think there there are a number of boxes that we would would
check on those fronts over. >> Do they tell you what they need to see in terms of showing that the site is itself plausible for a retrofit system? Do they ask for instance do you have water
source? Do you have ground source? Do you have availability of a driller? Um >> yeah. Um another one to add is do you need a uh to upgrade um the electrical
um supply right as as it comes to the school um as you electrify the school. Um those are absolutely components uh that we would need to address. Um and I think Michael alluded to this as well that the costing component to put
together a good proposal we would need sort of bound what um uh what the cost would be. So some form of technical assistance or if we were to undertake it ourselves um uh an an assessment of the
site for um for scoping purposes. How much would it cost? Could we inquire of Cushing, for instance, to give us a sight assessment? >> I mean, they've drilled all over this city, all over this town, and they've certainly drilled for geother one of
their chief uh claims is is drilling for geothermal. So, they know they know the bedrock literally. Yeah, I think that's I mean, you know, I think all these are like they're not details in the sense of small, but they're really specific things that we
have yet to do, but like we can't jump in unless we decide we want to do it. So, they're like they're big things and it might be that this group says they're too big. We can't figure this out in this period of time. Um, but to highlight them is important. >> But it but it seems to me that we won't
know if we would even be interested in applying if we can't show that the site is >> possible. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think we don't want to get over our skis and say, "Oh, you know, someone should go look at this stuff
when there hasn't been a town hasn't said this is a priority." >> Got it. >> Uh Susie and then Rita. In terms of priorities, I read through the road map and I know that the school
is dealing with several issues. Um they are um talking about replacing the oil tank, putting in an above ground tank, piping that into the building, putting in a 30,000galon tank for water for the
fire department, and paving the um paving the parking lot. So So that didn't get mentioned in the um assessment that was there. Um so I I was beginning to feel that people didn't
have a unified understanding of what was going on in the um there was some suggestion about perhaps canopy solar um which then if we end up using electrical
um electric um facilities instead of oil that canopy would be important. I know that at one time it was said that the parking lot was not a good candidate for Canopy Solar. Um, and so it just seemed to me that there's a lot of sort of
circulating priorities that need to have a a very whole picture. Um, and then in finding out what the school was dealing with and the timeline that they're thinking about was definitely not in
line with the road map. Um so so my questions are if we're going to shift towards electric sources of of energy, what kind of um possibility is there really for increasing the town's solar
capacity? And then how does it all fit together and end up with a school with a paved parking lot, a tank for 30,000 gallons under the there? And if we're going away from oil, um, how long all of
the putting in solar or however, um, how how would that all get wrapped together? Those are priority questions. >> Rita, >> um, thanks. I had a question actually for um Jeff Quackenbush
since he's kind of our um resident expert uh about whether or not it's realistic to think about ground source heat pumps for a building like the elementary school. I mean, I think it's it's great to be moving in that
direction, but it's a very spread out building. um is it, you know, for a building of that that size, um would it does it make sense? And I and I ask you only because of your experience now, both with the library
and just your um experience with construction at at UMass. >> I'm not an expert on ground source heat pump. I think the building the building configuration is kind of tight. So,
um, from what I know, I think it's a a candidate, but I think we need to hire some experts to try to help us through this stuff. >> Um, that's not going to be done by
February. >> Yeah. >> If especially if you need pricing on what these systems are going to cost, >> there's a lot of work involved with this. And I think again the first thing is we need to determine is everybody on board with the directions that we're
we're trying to go. >> Does that that answer the question? >> Yes. Thank you >> Frank. >> Thank you. Um in reference to the water, I know that Furkog has done a water assessment of our area. Leslie
Bracebridge showed me a map in the town so we could tap into that. >> And I'm also in agreement with Jeff is to hire an, you know, the engineers to tell us what we can do. Um, it would be well worth the investment. >> Don't worry, we got the money.
>> Yeah. So, >> yeah, you got to get the money to to pay the consultants. >> Yep. So, thank you, >> Michael. Yeah, I was just going to widen our view a little bit and sort of, you know,
although at ECAC we talked about the ground seas pump because the school grant is a lot of money and it would be a big project. I think the other way to think about it is we don't have enough time to really do such a large project but might we might want to set it up you
know as you know Jeff and Frank are talking about in terms of getting the information but we still have the opportunity for the climate leader either in February or in August and so it seems like um whether it's the spear building and doing something there or
doing something smaller um you know one of the things that we that is true about the climate leader grant is that they like to see that what you're pitching is consistent with what the report is. So looking at the triggers in the road map, you know, this the school would be a good candidate. We made sure that the
spear was mentioned for the very reason that it's an opportunity that's coming in front of us. But, you know, we could say, you know, great idea, heat pump is something we the town wants to do. Um, collectively speaking, but just focus on climate leader, which, you know, a
million bucks is nothing to sneeze at if we want to go for that. Um, and the timing would be August or February. Nate, I thought I >> Are you want to go after Spear since we don't even know what we're going to do with the building yet? >> Yeah.
>> As opposed to town hall, >> right? And Jeeoff, I think that's part of the when I talked to Rita, that was there's this domino effect, you know? So depending on what you decide with the spear, it might affect town hall in which case we might want to do something in town hall. So it could be that we're looking at August because we might have
more information and just putting just putting this out and saying, you know, if we come if we get clarity on what the building use is, we have this August opportunity to apply and and then we can ceue it up. So um I I don't I mean personally I'm not attached to anything
so much as not missing an opportunity because we didn't discuss it. That's all I want to do. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Uh Anna, >> so I want to um uh note that the climate the green
schools grant allows you to use some of the grant for soft costs like design work. So, we can actually use the grant to hire in some of the consultants to do
the scoping work for it. I think it's probably possible to get a quote from uh an installer uh or two um to what what would it cost to
install a ground source heat pump at the school? I you know it it wasn't a huge I you know and you know schools are very very different from residential but when we did our residential ground source
heat pump uh we were able to get a quote without a lot of extra effort on our own part of other than showing them around the area and the giving them access to see the electrical
um supplies and any duct work that we had and um the the the sort of ground space that was available. So I think if you contacted a couple of
ground source heat pump installers um there there could be a a a basic estimate on what it would cost that we could use in the grant application. And oh, sorry. Um, I think it's actually
somewhat timely because if we can make this plan now, then we might be able to not buy and install above ground oil or oil tanks, right? >> Um, and not invest in a a new oilbased
heating system and pay for a whole new boiler and do all of this other stuff. Um and uh that could be sort of if if we can make a strong push, we could just switch to ground source heat pump rather
than investing in a whole new oil system >> a Jay. >> Uh yeah. So I had kind of two related questions to that last comment that Anna had. So, one was I just wanted to sort of wrap my head around what
sort of what the needs and timeline are of the school for for the school like h how how urgent is their situation there in terms of kind of when they would need to move forward with a
significant project whether it was this sort of new tank installation or something like this. So, I don't know if anybody could speak to that. And then the second question was, is is this Green School Works >> grant is that is it an annual uh funding
opportunity? And if so, is there potentially an round of funding that would be available for February 27? Yeah. So I think Nate or Frank might be more
appropriate to answer the first half of the question and the additional opportunity. It's not 100% clear. There may be another grant opportunity. There was this is the second round of funding
and I think there is enough money for a third round of funding but I don't know when that would be or how much it would be. >> Okay. >> Frank, can you answer the first question for Jay?
You're on mute, Frank. hit too many buttons. Okay, I'm still working on figuring the date of the fiberglass tank. We had it tested this uh August, September, and it passed uh with all the bells and whistles. Um but
the average age of a double hulled fiberglass tank is between 30 and 40 years. And the best I can tell you right now, I have to follow up with two more people, is it's over 30 years old or at 30 years old.
Um, so that would have to, you know, that's where I'm standing on that. And the question I'd have for Anna is if we got these uh green the green schools monies, if we've just got ballpark figures
on what a heat pump costs, we could apply for, you know, $50,000 for engineering, >> someone to come by and throw through the whole thing. Is that what you're saying? Oh, good. Okay. So, that the tank is I I got to do a little more research. I've
got to talk to a a custodial person's down the street. I haven't been able to do that yet and I'll have more answers then once we find out how old that tank is, but I think it's towards the end of its lifetime. >> Frank, could it be the original one that was put in there?
>> No, they they did this about 30 years ago. The original is to the left of the school if you're looking at the front door. And it's got a I don't it was like a thousandgalon metal tank and then they upgraded 30 plus years ago. I haven't been able to find it. Um
and it's a double hauled fiberglass with blue water, saline water on the outside to show you where it leaks and everything else. So I mean it's a contemporary tank, but it's not the original to the building. >> Okay. Thank you. up to 15% of the green
school grant can be used for design soft costs. >> Oh, good to know. Um my >> um >> I saw your hand then Susie. >> Yeah, just a a a quick thing in terms of
the the costing. So Anna and Nate and I had office hours with um Mass Clean Energy Center yesterday who's managing the green schools grant and one of the things they said we asked them can the decarbonization roadmap and the
buildings inventory um be counted as this comprehensive building assessment and what they said is they like what they've seen in the previous round is that applicants that use the mass save comprehensive building assessment have better budgeting numbers in terms terms
of the the project and therefore are more competitive. So I think you know if Frank's able to pull a rabbit out of a hat and get the assessment um you know within a reasonable time we actually will have some good costing and also be competitive for that reason.
No pressure, >> right? So, I understand and I might not understand correctly that the problem wasn't the oil tank. It didn't actually leak water in. It was the vent that when
they redid the roof got left open and it let water into the system and it gummed up the nozzle and it and it took a long time and a lot of um billing to figure that out and it wasn't the boiler. So, as far as I understand, the boiler is
not a problem and the tank is not a problem. Um, so it could give us some time to just continue with fossil fuel until um another system gets in. If we get heat pumps, does that actually
replace the need for um heating the water or is is there another component to this picture that is um uh the energy load is reduced by the heat pumps, but there still needs to be a system. And um
I and there's not I don't believe there's been an accurate assessment of how long the current boiler will work. it'll work a lot better without having a gummy uh nozzle, but um there's parts to the system to be to be
dealt with, but it does sound like we don't have to replace the tank. That doesn't um address the need to put the 30,000galon water tank in the ground so that they can fight a fire at the school more
effectively. So, it I I still think that there's a really um important discussion about what the all the needs are and how to put them in an order that they can get met without having to redig up
something or um invest in something else. You will excuse me, I have to leave. George, when the time comes, will you uh close them close our meeting? Uh Frank, did you want to weigh in on
that? >> Yeah, just uh the um the age of the boiler. Uh in the previous buildings committee, uh we hired an engineer. I don't have the stats in front of me. And one of the things he did say was uh they don't make them that way
anymore. Don't get rid of it. Always fix things around it. and you know you can't get that type of uh a boiler anymore. Um so you it could last some more time. Yes. Um but moving away from the other
thing um it has been a highmaintenance boiler and you know it's been draining the resources of the school system. It's part of the town. So, >> uh, and as it as as is removing the tank as as soon as we find out how old it is,
it probably should come up. And all this isn't a big picture of that. They really want to redo the parking lot for the school wants to redo the parking lot. The school committee wants to do their parking lot to make the flow of the buses more easy. So that's what this is all I my understanding is is they this
is the opus of the big picture is they want the the buses to flow easy for the kids and redesigning that whole parking lot uh would be one thing but we don't want to pave it and then dig it up two years later. Right. So that so that's the that's the hierarchy and I agree
with you Susie that we have to start writing all these things down and move them around as they become more prevalent and what we have to decide on. >> For what I know about the ground source heat pump systems they do not produce
temperatures as hot as a oil burner. I believe if you went to the ground source system with the heat pumps, you probably have to replace all the mechanical equipment in the mechanical room and maybe even in every classroom
to deal with the lower temperature water or liquid that you're going to be sending to the rooms. So I think this is a major mechanical upgrade to the whole to the whole school more than just just looking at ground
source and again that's why I think we need we need to hire some professionals to figure this out. >> Michael, >> yeah I just have a quick factual question. Um I thought there was air
air ducts in this school and it wasn't. It was air heating, not water heating. >> So if it's air then the >> Yeah, I believe it's force hot air. >> It's I think it's water to to the clasps which then blow air over the water.
>> What? >> There's an air exchange system, >> right? >> I believe it's a hydronulic system >> in that case. So this is completely this is from and and I don't understand the
systems completely but if you bring the water up out if you bring the um heated or cool depending on what time of the year water out of the ground there is a need to heat it to whatever temperature you want the school you may not have to retrofit the
classrooms in a in a may not have to be the whole mechanical system in the school there may be a way to buffer it into the older system so you're not having to do the whole system in school. Um, the company I work for is decarb is uh decarbonization projects at Smith and
Ammerst College and some of it has been retrofitted to fit the old systems in the buildings using the W they're using the the um geothermal pits as the basis for starting the heat sources.
Gail So I don't understand the uh air duct system then air ducts. >> So it's it's not air duct heating. Is that a forced hot air heating? >> I don't believe so. >> No, the the air duct system in the
building I think is is to provide um >> the required air changes that are required by code. >> Right. >> Now of course that air has to be heated or cooled. Is that >> is that heating or is that exchanging air? >> I can't hear the question.
>> Oh, I'm sorry. The the um the ducks in the gym on the ceiling, are those heat or just air exchangers? >> Air exchange. >> I think in the gym, I think there's there's rooftop units. I think those are or heating. Well, heating and fresh air
both. >> Steam. >> Uh a J. >> Yeah. I I was wondering if this climate leader communities grant opportunity could be used to
propose an engineering study or is it is that is that designed for actual sort of building construction projects? I I had I haven't had a chance to review the RFP that was circulated. And if so, I'm assuming even
though it's not a school focused uh grant initiative, but I would assume it's designed to, you know, accept proposals related to any kind of municipal building. So wouldn't preclude us from proposing a school related
project. >> I can answer that a a little bit. I'm still having my technical difficulties, but my sense is with climate leader, it's mostly about implementation because the presumption is that your decarbonization roadmap was the was the
factf finding process. So it's it's similar to like the um municipal municipal vulnerability preparedness where we did an MVP plan and then you can go and so we applied for money to get the plan done and then the action
grants were subsequent to actually do stuff and so I so I think >> we got a we got a grant to have consultants do the decarbonization roadmap for us and that was sort of the planning component. So now it's sort of we can identify projects. >> Um so I mean there are there might be
other grants like I did not get a chance to look. There's still green communities grants for example um and there's still MVP grants um that we could apply for. Um so if we took the approach of let's do a plan to then you know set ourselves
up for a heat pump you know we you know we can start looking in that in that direction. if if that's the strategy. >> Yeah. I mean that that that sort of my instinct listening to this conversation is that may maybe what is needed at this point is some financial support for a
kind of engineering and design kind of project that actually answered a bunch of the very good questions that have been raised during this discussion at least about the the geothermal heating concept for the school.
Rita. >> Um, so I agree with AJ. I think I think we're probably not ready for prime time for the February 16th or 13th deadline given um and you know as as Jeff has has
pointed out the amount of um just engineering design work analysis that needs to be done on the school. I think it's it's the right way to go, but I think we're trying to
it's way too ambitious to think that we would have uh a viable um proposal or that compet viable competitive proposal for that February 13th date, no matter what sort of magic
we uh we use to try and get there. So, you know, if that's the case and and we could get funding to do that kind of analysis pre-development work, um that would be really good. as far as the um
the spear building goes and the town hall. Um so the the reuse committee has been looking at both at both buildings just because there's some you know discussion about underutilization of some of the space in
within the town hall and then obviously what what kind of costs would be associated for doing any kind of conversion of the of the spear building whether it's for offices or it's just
going to be for meeting space. Um, but the town hall itself um is is another place to look about whether or not that might be appropriate. you know, if we were just going to do the climate climate leader,
you know, it's it's both buildings and they're kind of in in I think in the committee's mind tied together. Um because we're, you know, we're we're looking at the current usage within town hall and saying,
you know, does a reconfiguration makes make sense to create some different office spaces within the the the town hall if that's the case? And it's the the heating system there and the cooling system is very
um I don't know in my mind inadequate um that you know the building really needs um needs a a once over. So, I'm wondering if if it would make sense um
you know to to look at the town hall. Um the the spear building we are the committee is still meeting. We meet again this Thursday. Um we've done some very preliminary um look at you know possible
reconfiguration particularly on the um on the ground level because it's you know it's it's underutilized and it's um you know there's the possibility of doing something more with that with that space. Uh so I don't know you know Frank
I know you you mentioned the um the the mass save folks. I was wondering and and doing the um the you know the energy audit what the timing on that is when we might have something.
>> I've asked already and then um I will send another email because I've got the the balance of the uh fuel bills that I spent today at town hall getting out and as soon as I get that hopefully she'll give me an answer and I'll send the everyone I'll send the select board an
answer and you can broadcast it to everyone else. Yeah. And then and then if there's a way for us to find some of the resources either through um uh the climate leader
or and some other way to do a a good thorough analysis at the school. I mean it sounds like the school that we have a little bit of time. This is not an emergency situation. you know, every year we're spending thousands and thousands of tens of thousands of
dollars on on heating and and it's yeah, a a better solution um is needed, but I don't think we'd be ready um and competitive given that we're uh a month
and a half out from when an application is due. Um, I think we would have pretty good information about the um well, we do have good information about the uh the Emmon Spear and and the the town
hall and we'll have additional information once the the energy is audit is done. We can get that done quickly. So, that might be the way to go is is plan for the school. the school is really important, but maybe um the
lowhanging fruit right now, as I see it, is probably um the town hall and the and the sphere building. Even not knowing exactly what we're going to do with the sphere building, it's going to be used um and you know, might be might be
worthwhile in just um wrapping that into an application. >> Thanks, Rita. Uh Stephen Thank you. Um so I originally several years ago went through the um elementary
school and um without pulling up which I don't have easy access to right now my report um I don't have a clear memory of some of the things. I don't think there's any rooftop units above the uh gym, but you know, it's a water-based
system and um and again, I don't remember how it's completely set up, but it's not uncommon in a water-based system to send heated water to duct work u where you have a coil and then it's a
you know, then it becomes a forced air, but you're creating the heat through the water-based system. So, that's certainly a possibility. And um just to sort of reiterate what I think Melissa might have said, you know, with a ground
source heat pump, you're taking water from the ground, which usually is at a constant temperature, and then you're using a heat pump to either bring it up to the temperature you want or to lower it in terms of heating or cooling. Um
but I think the system at the school is going to be complicated because of what exists you know when you try to introduce this new system. Um and the same thing would actually occur at town hall maybe not as complicated but uh you
know if you went with a ground source heat pump. >> Thank you >> Nate. Uh I just wanted to say that uh we've been in contact with the school committee has been in contact with the Birkshere design group um and they are
uh civil engineers and um they do surveys and everything. So um you know we were hoping to get uh um Carlos from that group out in the next few weeks to try to get this ball moving
and to get an assessment of the parking lot and all this stuff. So, this is happening right now. It seems like a priority um for the school to figure out this heating system that's costing us. You know, it cost us in May, just May alone
was $34,000. We got a $34,000 bill and that, you know, in October that we paid that and October, we didn't have any heat in the building that first time. So, Jamrock is continuously coming back. This needs to be figured out ASAP. It's
costing the school and the town too much money. Thanks, Nate. Gail. >> Uh, thank you. Um, Anna and Nate, do you know if you said the wording was up to 15% of the grant application for soft?
Could it be the entire application? Could we Could we use that grant opportunity to get the Okay, you're shaking your head. Okay, >> I take that as a no. >> Yeah. No, it it's up to 15% of the total grant and it I don't think they they
don't provide uh design only grants. >> Okay, >> Michael. Yeah, just building on I think what Rita was talking about where you know we do the planning work for the school and then focus on the climate leader
if we were to I'm just throwing this out just like to sort of see what people might think but if we were to go for climate leader in August which would give us a little bit of time for the reuse committee to figure out some stuff you know my sense is the way to be competitive because if if you look on
page 14 of the decarbonization road map is where the major trigger trigger event table is and you know the school is clearly like if we did something the school that would be the most competitive argument but if we're focusing on town hall and the spear
I think what we would want to do is sort of join those at the hip um because the timelines for doing major triggers for the spear are documented to be sooner it's installation and HVAC and so if we sort of lead with the spear and then as
a that domino effect we do some town hall stuff because the town hall at least of the decarbonization road map is a little bit later in time. But one can make the argument if you're doing the spear and you're rejiggering things that you have to do the town hall and then conceivably we could ask for some planning stuff or
something in there around the school. I mean, I know it's an implementation grant, but if we're doing mostly implementation, maybe we could sneak something in, but I would think that we would really want to look at another funding source for the the planning for the ground sources for the school outside of this just to make sure that's
explicitly planning. Um, and those are harder to come by, but MVP might be a possibility, >> Frank. Thank you. Thank you. Um I uh I feel for the school committee and Nate because I've been going out there a lot and I've seen the bills. Um
I've engaged uh Royal Steam. The building committee has talked about it to come out and look at the school for also m long-term maintenance things before we change our systems. And uh I agree that the heat system's been a drain on the on
the economics of the town and it needs to be addressed. So I just want to say my support on that >> Anna. >> Um I just remembered that the total grant amount in the green school works I
think is $90 million. And if I remember correctly, in the first round they gave out $52 million and this round is $19 million. And that would imply that the last round or if
there's only one more round, then it could potentially be next year and it could potentially be another $19 million. Um, so that that might be the case. Um, and then I don't know if one year from
now is a good timeline to um address the oil tanks or if the the idea would be to install new oil tanks before one year from now. But I I would want to
try to get the if we're going to do a ground source heat pump, try to do that before buying new and installing new oil tanks. Um because that just wouldn't make a lot of sense. Um, I and I I feel
like we could take advantage of a potential installer to help us create a an installation plan and cost it in a relatively efficient and quick um manner. becau if you know if we
basically guarantee that the installer would get the job if they help us with the plan um I think they might be more inclined to help us with the the plan. We would clearly need to reach out to more than one installer to get like sort
of like ballpark quotes from them and I don't know exactly how involved that would be. Maybe somebody who has more experience in sort of more commercialsized contracts would have a better idea. But the idea of being able to get a quote on
a system for a particular residential house, it's very very easy and they do it for free. But um you know I don't know how that works for the larger things. So, so I'll just jump in. It's sort of
like a cold water question, so I apologize. I I I do want to support the school, but does I don't know if Bencom or Haley knows, but in terms of procurement, um, do we have to go out to bid? So, even if we get a quote, then we have to do the whole procurement
process. And you all know that's fun. Yeah, we wouldn't be able to just, you know, offer It would be wonderful if we could, but given the cost of this project, we would have to go out and do the whole bidding process.
Um, and you know, one thing I was thinking about as I've been listening to all this is, you know, it sounds like obviously have a lot of needs and there are a lot of grants out there, but I'm just wondering like has anyone or like where do these things stand like on our
capital plan? Like we're talking about priorities, but like if someone like a town administrator could research grant opportunities and like make a spreadsheet of when they typically become available, would we then have the capital plan ready to go and say this is
the priority? Okay, let's match it because it sounds like we have all the skills and we have a lot of knowledge between all of us. if we just get organized, you know, in the years to come, maybe not this year, but we could
certainly tackle a lot of these issues. >> Thank you, Haley. uh Susie >> and again it's it's about listing all the projects that are being considered and figuring out how they piece together because if you if you do heat pumps I
understand you have to dig down but um if that digging isn't connected to the 30,000galon water tank or solar canopies possible or um paving then it you you
don't know where you're going to dig down for the heat pump until you know what else is going on. >> Okay. >> I just wanted to add uh >> Yeah, I'm sorry. I just wanted to add on to Susie and just saying that this is
kind of like a perfect time for the school to do this. There's a lot of things going on right now and if we can just get what uh what Haley is saying, what Susie is saying, get this all coordinated um and make this a priority, I think it
would be money well well spent in time. Can I can I ask what the timing is on the oil tanks? >> Like how so? >> I think >> I you know as soon as I find if they're if they're 30 years old and the average
lifespan is between 30 and 40 it might be 10 years till we find out when they were put in the ground because the records aren't there. then we can find that out. So, I think that's the only answer I can give the
committee, but I agree that the whole picture should be looked at. And this is like really encouraging that we're all here, by the way. This is this is awesome. We should do this more often. Um, and so anyway, thank you.
So, I'm I'm hearing that we certainly have more research to do. Um, I feel like we certainly have three buildings that are in play right now. Um, what do we think our next steps would be to start some of that planning um to be
able to looks like August is more of a target date for us. Um, any thoughts related to that? I think we should probably have another joint meeting about our capital plan needs, you know, and I I do think that it's possible that
if we can get this information, we could we might be able to pull it together for February, but it's going to depend on all those little bits of, you know, when was it installed? could be if we have a couple years, you know, say it's 30 and the max is somewhere between 30 and 40,
you may want to wait even though it's painful in the short term because in the long term, why would you install the oil tank if we can put in the ground source heat pump? You know, I think we really need to look like I don't know the right word, like holistically something. We
need to look at every little bit and it sounds and I think this is a great venue, Frank. You're right. Like it's nice to see everybody together. We just need to like get up the spreadsheet. What's the capital plan? Is it up to date? Does it include paving the parking lot? Like,
you know, it has to include a new fire truck, right? Like we know that. Um, you know, I think we just need to take a a closer look at what that plan is because then there are many opportunities, not just green communities. And if we start tracking that, we can create a schedule
of okay, like we know December is green community season, so let's ceue up those grants that are going to fall under that category and see what we can apply for. You know, if we can start lumping things together, we can get organized. >> Frank and Michael,
>> yeah, I agree. I agree with Haley that we get together and do all this. I'll do my best to uh talk to Lindsay at Eversource and get things rolling really fast on this so we can get the school involved. Um my understanding when I came on the buildings committee way back
when Bob Grove was chairs is that buildings is horizontal and highway departments is vertical. And so we talk about paving and stuff like that or fire trucks. That's not in my realm. That's why that's why I enjoy this whole thing of meeting together and talking about
capital plan because we all get to pitch our our our dollars in front of everyone and find out the importance as a consensus. Thank you. So I don't want to undo the momentum equipment that needs
>> Yeah. I I don't want to undo the momentum Melissa sort of laid out there about what our next steps are because I think getting getting concrete off this call is good. But I did have a question for Fincom, which is, you know, we're talking about grants and I know our
finances just like every other municipalities in the country is probably not looking good, but I don't have a sense of like if we wanted to do bonding on any of this stuff, is that like the out of the question? Is that something we would consider like just to
throw that in the mix since these are big capital projects? Yeah, I mean I I can respond uh to just to to say that what we're planning to do is obviously our sort of focus right now is on the FY27
budget, putting that together. We're meeting, we've started to meet with department heads to review their proposed budgets. We're planning on pulling together um department heads in a similar fashion
that we we just did what was that a month ago um in probably late January or early February to do what we're kind of calling a fiscal summit kind of meeting where we're going to um have a sort of
ear early look at what the FY27 budget looks like based on um some assumptions and everyone's proposed budgets. I think um uh I mean, you know,
not this is not going to come as a shock to anybody. There there are some real real some there's some real challenges uh this year. And um so I think I think what we're going to need to do is uh in
February sort of have a sense of what strategies are going to be on the table and available to us to to to fund our budget for for FY27. And I don't know how if that sort of and it's going to have to involve potentially, you know,
using cash reserves, um going back to some department heads potentially to ask for reductions. I mean, it's it might have to be a bit of everything. So, I don't know how um how
this fits fits into that, but um but it's but but it's certainly something worth bringing up again at that point. >> Yeah. I mean, my sense and maybe Eric and George since they've lived through this kind of stuff can chime in, but my sense is bonding is a a separate route.
I mean the impact is that it it plays into taxes for people which you know in a bad financial situation I mean no one ever wants to pay more taxes but it just aggravates the situation but if we did a bond and it was 30 years >> it would enable us to have resources
that's separate from the annual budget right >> yeah yes uh but also to keep in mind I mean there's there there are a number of sort of capital projects that are
sort of on the schedule right now. So yeah, we I I your your question's a good one and just to see if if how this how these projects that we're talking about here might fit into that uh is worth doing some doing some more thinking
about and exploring. >> Uh Nate, did I see your hand? >> Yes. I just uh you know we were talking about a timeline and yeah the the oil tank could probably may last another 10 years but I don't think the driveway will the driveway needed to be repaved
10 years ago and we've been doing kind of deferred maintenance and it's um and so there's also uh you know an issue with um yeah how that uh driveway gets plowed. One of the things that we have been put in for uh uh capital plannings
is a new tractor that need the tractor needs to be replaced because um the janitor has to um supplement uh some plowing that uh isn't being done by the town. And so, you know, we're trying to
deal with that. I'm trying to work with him. And there's the idea if um we can get the town to come and prioritize the paving, we could spend a lot less and get snowblowers. So, we're trying to figure all that out. Um so, yeah, the
the the driveway itself, I don't think has another 10 years in it. So, that is a priority for us. And I want to thank everyone for all of it, all of your conversation. Thank you very much. Uh based on what Haley said, do we have
some volunteers from the committees assembled to help start that process? >> Yeah, I would make a suggestion that um maybe we all of us meet again after the holidays so everyone can relax and enjoy
and then be thinking about how we want to move forward. You know, do we want to do like a standalone committee? we have capital planning, but do we maybe want to augment that in some way? And how do we also bring in our other departments because we all know that they also have
deferred maintenance needs. Um, and so I think that I think we should play to our strengths in this community and we're all very collaborative and so we should really utilize each other because that's what really works for us when we do. >> Sounds good to me. Rita, Eric.
>> Yeah. I just had one one other thought and that is you know if if we are for the school if we are thinking about um a ground source heat pump um would it make sense to
put together a a what a scope might be for um I don't know if it's an engineering firm you I don't know what kind of company you know would would do this but to um to try to get a sense of of what would
it cost for the design work the design and um pricing because it's I think it's something we would need for an application regardless and and could be updated but if we could put some dollars
forth >> now I mean maybe we could learn something or or some sort of basic evaluation I is Jeff is still here. I mean, is that would that be something that you think would would be worthwhile?
I'm asking you, Jeff Quackenbush. >> Yeah, but I have to unmute. >> Put it on you. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think we should I think we should investigate what kind of firms we need to hire to do a study, how much it
would cost, what, you know, kind of pick their brains on where we're going with this thing. What are we what are we going to get involved with? What are we going to not know we really need to be working on with this thing? And so I think it's a good idea.
Frank, >> I agree with Jeff. I think that's the committee uh to explore an outside sources to orchestrate the whole picture and that is a lot of engineering uh has to do with you know a lot of civil
engineering and and and other stuff. So I agree with Jeff >> and how costly might that be? >> I knew you were going to go there. I used to be on the finance committee once upon a time.
>> If I had to take a a swag, I would say 50 to 100,000. >> Wow. >> But again, I don't know what is required. I think we need to also figure out which grants are we looking at because we would have to find out what is it
they want in terms of the prelim preliminary information. So, we know what to ask the design firm to do. But I think that's probably in the um the RFP. Michael, is that correct? >> Yeah. >> And Nate, yeah, you guys have looked at
what some of the requirements are. >> Because I think we're also going to run into, which we ran into at UMass all the time, is the kind of designers you need for these kinds of projects are usually not sitting here in Shootsberry,
>> you know. So, we're probably bringing in firms from the east. But we could we could potentially um look at what uh scopes that were developed, you know, for for similar buildings, you know,
what the elements are that um what we'd be asking for. Correct. >> Yep. the the tasks >> model. >> You want the building committee to try to pull that together
>> in their spare time? Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Sure. >> Jeff Jeff just volunteered. >> Volunteer to me. >> Yeah. You keep you keep on No, you keep misunderstanding. My name's Frank. >> Okay, Frank.
That would be great. I, you know, I think that why not be looking at that at the same time that we're kind of, you know, looking down these other avenues, too. >> Um, >> I I really I really appreciated working
with my group or whatever the the committee to do that because Jeff had a saying. I'd rather spend 30 grand upfront than to have people complain years later that we didn't do it right. And I and I really appreciate Yeah. Hire the engineers. >> Yeah.
>> Source it out and figure it out that way and spend the m spend good money up front so that we spend solid money in the future. >> Yeah. >> Um Michael, I see your hand. >> You're muted, >> Michael.
Um, I would add just a smidge to that scope in terms of getting to the stuff that Nate Long Hope was talking about in terms of the, you know, there's the layering. So, you know, we would be mistaken if we just started looking at the ground source heat pump and didn't
look at the um driveway and the paving, you know, and what we learned like looking at EVs is that we were going to consider EVs at behind town hall, but it wasn't paved, you know. So, like same thing with canopies. If we're going to repave, then opens the door to canopies
and it could open the door to EVs. So, this there's sort of like a multi- um piece puzzle happening. Um but if if the core of it is to say we need to address, you know, ultimately the heating issue at the school and ground source heat pumping is the way we want to go, then
how do these other things sort of fit in timing wise uh and strategically um in terms of prior? Yeah, just priority and timing. Frank and Nate. >> Yeah. Um I don't know the name right now. U I'm a
lot of information, but whatever the name of the u engineering firm the dams hired the that's working on the dam. >> GZA. >> Thank you. GZA. I knew it had a Z in it. Um uh my brother-in-law has a huge firm
and GZA just bought him out. So I'll ask him a lot of questions recently about the scope of landscape buses and all that if he who he knows cuz he's he's about to have a lot of
free time in in his hands. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, I just wanted to address the EV at the school. Um Eric uh and I had a conversation about that and we were kind of um came to the agreement that we
shouldn't maybe shouldn't have public um EV at the school that that that should be at some place like the library that we wouldn't want to have >> somebody coming in vaping
charging their Tesla in a school public school parking lot. So, just to put that out there. >> Yeah. I didn't want to create that's not that's like a side conversation I was mostly using in terms of the layering of like you can't do one thing without the other. And if you do it in the wrong time sequence, you're screwed. Um, so
yeah, we can leave EVs off the table for now. >> Okay. Um, so, uh, I I feel like we'll have another meeting like this in in our future and, um,
we would need some more information. Um, Haley, were you going to put some of that together a little bit, work with maybe um, I saw hands, but I didn't I didn't catch who they were. Um, >> anyone who I can watch the video and I'll reach out to you personally. I know I saw Michael's hand and I think
I saw Nate's, but there was a couple others and I didn't catch them. Um, so I apologize for that. Um, is there anything else that we want to cover as far as next steps or wait until we have our next meeting for
our next scope of steps? >> Michael, >> I just want to do a massive thank you both uh to Haley and the select board for making this happen so quickly. I mean, literally last week and for everyone on here, I mean, it's I really do think it's cool, you know, we we
having the multiple perspectives and the sharing. Like, I don't know if everyone town every town does this. I sort of doubt that they could. So, kudos to all of us for, you know, doing this, >> Yeah. good job. >> Thank you all. >> Thank you. >> Definitely prove that we can jump in
quickly, right? Um, when did we want to meet to uh I know the deadline was for February. Haley thought maybe we could pull something together in January. Do we want to have another meeting? >> Yeah, we could send a doodle poll out or
whatever free poll is available software. >> That sounds good to me. Other questions or comments before we consider adjourning all of our committees? It's great to see everybody in one place. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> No. All right. Uh, who needs to defend? Do you want to adjourn your meeting? >> Yep. I'll adjourn the fin meeting 618. >> Frank, do you want to adjourn the buildings committee? >> I'll adjourn the buildings committee
meeting at 6:18. >> Michael, do you want to adjourn the ECAC? I'll assume that there's a motion in a second from uh Yeah. >> Should I hit everybody? Did I I think we hit all of them, right? >> Select board. >> Well, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. I hear a motion to adjourn the
select board. >> Ajourn. >> Yes. >> And a second, Rita? >> A second. >> All those in favor? >> I >> All right, everybody. Thank you for participating. It was great to see everybody. >> Thank you. >> Thank you all.
>> Good night. >> Good evening. Hey.