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Okay. Anything else? >> No, we're going to start our meeting at the moment and so I call the select board to order and because there's a quorum of the council on aging so I'll ask the chair or co-chair to start the follow the meeting of the great council

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on aging to order. >> Go ahead. Just call yourselves to order. >> Okay. the um see yes this council and agent meeting will on um >> yes July >> July 29th will come to order perfect

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um okay so first we're going to review the agenda which is um uh public comment and then our general business which is one topic today is the discussion of plowing at 12 Birch Drive um our joint meeting with the council on aging um so

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was there Anything else that we had not anticipated Haley to pop up for his select word agenda? Oh, sorry. So, with that, I'm going to open it up to um public comment. If you have a public comment either online or in the room,

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please use your re use your raise hand feature. Anyone like to make a public comment? Uh Tom and Ron. Go ahead, Tom. >> Thanks. I know that it's a one agenda item meeting. So I wasn't sure because

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my comments related to the agenda item if I should say it now or wait until >> probably yes I would hold it to the agenda item. Public comment is usually yeah um it's not usually a um we usually ask for ones that are agenda items to be

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in that in that in there. So, um, it was yours as well, Ron, related to the agenda items or an additional >> Yes. agenda. >> All right. Does anyone online have a public comment not related specifically to our agenda item?

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>> Okay. So, um well, we will move on to the agenda item and this is um a discussion about plowing for 12 Birch Drive. Some of the history behind this is that it was brought to the board's

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agend uh manion and a te's attention that um the plowing abruptly stopped in December, January. Um help me fill in Halen if I skip some things. Yes. >> Yeah. um and that uh the town policy

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differed from what um had occurred and so we've been having ongoing discussions about uh the plowing past the null of Arch Drive. Was there something I didn't that's a quick summary of issue? >> I think that that's a pretty quick

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summary of the issue. Um you know obviously people can correct me if I'm wrong but Mr. had reached out, I believe, to the highway superintendent in late December. He reached out to my office in early January. January 5th was the first time that the town had said,

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"No, we're not going to continue plowing past the first null." Um, we had we had some more email exchanges after that. There was a request for a meeting. So, Rita, former select board member, myself, Mary Joe, Susan, and Mr. Mech

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had met in person. sometime in January after that meeting, you know, we had decided we would do a site assessment. We did that in February. Um, we issued a determination shortly after doing the assessment. Uh, Mr. Mech had produced a rebuttal to that

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assessment and we've been engaged in kind of an ongoing back and forth. Um, >> okay. >> Right. So, um, where does Okay, go ahead. >> Ask a question just for clarity. the site assessment who would have been involved with.

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>> So that consisted of myself, Mary Joe Johnson, Melissa MP O'Neal, Dave Grar, Highway Super, and Mr. Mack himself. >> Thanks. >> I would just like to say that it is, you had mentioned 12 Birch Drive, but there's actually two houses that access

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that that way right there, >> right, >> past the was brought to our attention was specifically 12, >> right? But it's not it it doesn't only affect him, but it affects the other house. >> Noted. >> Even though it's >> noted, >> not occupied right now.

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>> Um, go ahead, Dave. He raised your >> He's not occupied. >> No, not right now. >> Um, all right. So, where where should we go from here in our meeting? We want to discuss um we want to discuss the the the town where we had left it last

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select board meeting where we had a discussion. we had left it more broadly where we were going to assess all of the roads that LWA in that area private roads um and do a more general assessment from there. That's where we had left it and we had put this into

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that and that was um not satisfactory to both the council on aging and Mr. Mr. Mech. So um where would the select board like to start this conversation or discussion? Um, I know we have a lot of stuff that's brought to us. >> Could I ask something?

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>> Yes. >> Yes. I would like to I'm really quite deaf and I really would appreciate it if people would speak as loudly and clearly as possible and that's really true for anybody who's not sitting at the tables. >> Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Susan, for a reminder.

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>> Thank you. Okay. Where would we like to um to start a conversation now? the assessment. Um, we could talk about that. Our assessment we did or our town policy, um, well, we'll start there. So,

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everybody's on the same page. Our town policy since 2001, I believe, is the original or n um, the date, I'm sorry, dates do not fit in my bag. >> That's right.

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>> 2001. Um and a policy that has been to plow the private roads um and the information that's been given to the contractor to do so was to do the first

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um was the where that would would be um and not go any further. >> Yeah. So I I think perhaps a point of confusion is that you know Mary Joe part of the documents that you had given us was a town plowing a private roads policy. However policy was updated on

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November 22nd 2008 and the updated policy um I don't know Brennan if it's easy for you to screen share but it is in your packets and it's there should be copies over there. It does list towards the bottom um that the town of Shootsbury will plow/contract plowing

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for the following private roads for the upcoming winter 2008 2009 and it lists some roads and then the second road that it lists is birch drive to first null. So that is what has been the the principal guide um to certainly my

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interpretation of the policy as it pertains to this particular situation. Mr. X pro um house is Fir which is past that first point. Um there are other documents that say personal telephone poll. Um that's consistent in

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some of the records from the highway department. Um so when I looked at this issue that was what I was basing my opinion on is that we have a policy that is clearly articulates that there is a terminal point in the town's

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plowing. we don't go past that point. Um, now I think that one of the, you know, obviously people can jump in, but one of the points of contention is that there's been this practice, this long-standing practice where the road has just been plowed.

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>> I would like to jump in. Um, if you look at the policy number on that policy, and I I did quite a bit of I prepared all of this for you today. Um, the policy number is the same as the policy in 2001. So I would be inclined to look at

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this and say that this is a copy of the policy but not a revision of the policy because had it been a revision you would have need to change the policy numbers. >> U it was if no a revision can also just be revised with a date at the bottom >> and you wouldn't change the policy number

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>> not necessarily not overhauled. Oh no. And we actually did that very recently with I forget what policy, but there was a previous select board meeting not that long ago where we had revised a policy and the policy number did not change. No. If we if we disan if we take a policy and

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change it so much that it doesn't resemble the past policy, we do change the policy number. But in this case, it was a revision in 2008. >> Okay. >> The the 2008. What concerns me about your revision in 2008 is that it eliminates number six,

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which is the required conversation between the highway department supervisor and the LWA for the purpose of determining what roads need to be repaired before the winter season. Number six is really

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important in terms of carrying out the policy because obviously, you know, people want to know ahead of time um when their when their road needs repair and to coordinate with that with the LWA, you need a significant amount

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of time. From what I can tell, um, although that number six was dropped off and although that particular policy says something about the null, if you keep looking in those documents, you will see that um, the null was not referred to in

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other lists of roads to be plowed or or not plowed. um and that the the practice of continuing to review having the highway supervisor review with LWA continued despite the fact that number

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six was gone. Um, so I I think just in in practice and in terms of what makes sense. Um, I have a little bit of problem with what is right there and I am wondering why you would have dropped

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off of the policy a a procedure that is continued and is an important procedure. And also there's the question of um of actually where the null is located um which we really haven't discussed um

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formally but as I understand it a null is a hill and the place where the plowing is stopped is partway down a hill not at a hill. If you were going to identify where a null would be in that neighborhood,

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Ron's house is on a null and there is a there is a um telephone pole or a utility pole at the base of the null that Ron Ron's house is on. So if you were to really think about where what a

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null is and where it would be, the plowing would go down the hill all the way, which it has done ever since then. So, I think I think there's a couple of things um that looking at the two two policies that are different. Um is that

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number six the the list was actually included in the policy um instead of just saying a list of eligible roads. Um and that they that the deter the maintenance will still be determined by the highway super.

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Um, as far as letting the public um, know, I think that was removed, but this was done by a select board prior to the three of us many years ago. So, we won't know the reasoning why. Um, and the the description of a null is kind of a

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subjective um, a null can also go down and up. So, I think and it's been listed as the telephone poll too. So I think descriptions descriptions can be um somewhat subjective

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in that um I don't know >> there well Mr. Neck has his hand up but there is one thing I wanted to say which that I do appreciate in the COA's advocacy that you have highlighted that yes in 2003 the town did not follow policy. We you know it is regrettable.

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We are very sorry that that did not happen. We have already conducted a preliminary assessment of the roads that need to be plowed and we're we're finalizing that draft now to go out. We want to get it out a little bit early ahead of the September 1st cutoff. Um so we we do recognize that that's important

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and sometimes policy doesn't always reflect practice and sometimes practice isn't reflected in policy. Um so I just did want to put that out there that for this coming winter season we have already made preparations to do that. Um,

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did you want to take >> Yes. Yes. Go ahead. >> So, my question I I had I had kind of the legal history of what's occurred here and maybe a chance to present. But my main thing from the very beginning is

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this. This is something that suddenly happened without warning with no evidence whatsoever for the reason that it happened. Uh my thoughts we asked the question were deferred and from the very beginning the town's position has been

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to exist and to try to deny any of what's been going on since 15 years before that policy in 1987 in their packet there's letters from residents of Birch Drive to attest that yes in fact that road is always

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so what is it why can't we focus on how do we solve this instead of justification resisting it say what is the null does anyone have anyone have any evidence to what is the significance of the null it

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exists there I've got the freedom of information I've got everything that came from the DPW all that time and the null is only mentioned a couple of times and actually there's been that hasn't happened since

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2023 3. So where did this assessment come from that determined that it couldn't be plowed when that hasn't been done since 2023 and the only assessment that was done was done six weeks after the plowing stopped. So what is the significance of the null that we're

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spending all this time talking about? >> Well, actually Mr. Mike, I have a question. Do do you recall sending an email in 2019 to the town administrator at the time, Becky Torres? probably >> I'd like to read the email exchange because I I do think it is important. So

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on December 2nd, 2019, Mr. Mack wrote to the select board. He said, "For as many years as I can remember, Birch Drive has been plowed down to the end. I have just had a conversation with Tim Hunting, who called me a liar and insisted that this has never happened, despite my insisting

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it had been, and then he hung up on me. Um, I was afraid that the change in the contract um that something like this would happen. One call to Clark Excavating will confirm what I am saying and Tim Hunting needs to get this road plowed and apologize to me. And then Mr.

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Met goes on to send a second email later that afternoon that says, "After speaking with Tim, I called Clark's excavating and five current and former residents of Birch Drive to confirm it has always been plowed. Somewhere in that process, Tim changed his position and they just came and plowed. He left

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me a message that he can't be expected to know every nook and cranny, which I understand and support and know he does a great job. The oversight in the transfer of the plowing contract is understandable, though it did end up costing me several hundred and missed appointments today and not being able to

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get out until 2 p.m. But that was not his initial response to my query at noon asking when Birch Drive would be plowed to see if I had canled um more work or not. Tim and the department department do an admiral and difficult job. I know

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and appreciate that. My one and only complaint regarding Tim is him blatantly contradicting my truthful statement and sarcastically insisting it had never been plowed in all these years and um insinuating I was trying to pull a fast one where it were in the transition

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between a new contractor. I did raise my voice in objection to that point to essentially being called a liar as I had already asked him to call Clarks to verify what I was saying which he did not agree to. Instead, he kept insisting to me he was unaware of the situation and just called Clark in the first place

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and none of this unpleasantness would have ensued. And then Becky Torres writes to the select board. Just want just want you to know that Tim did stop in town hall and I got a chance to speak with him about this issue. It was a big

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misunderstanding. Tim will be happy to talk to you about it. This is the first snow with our replacement contractor for Clark. Tim gave him his standing list of where to plow. David Boron followed the list. Tim has had discussions with Ron years ago about Ron wanting him to sand

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further down Birch Drive. Tim let him know he thought it was too dangerous. But over the last 15 years, it turned out that Tommy Clark had started doing it at some point, unbeknownst to Tim. Tom is a nice guy, but Tom never let Tim know about the change. Tim radioed Steve

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and Chuck in their trucks, and neither thought that Clark plowed that section of Birch. Tim ran into Dennis and stopped to ask him about it. But by that time, Ron had already called Clark. So Dennis knew it was about Ron. Once Tim learned he was wrong, he sent the guys over to take care of it. He also called

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Ron back. It's snowing again. Take care, Becky. So I would contend that there was a previous service disruption. >> It was an error because it was then continued. and why you continue to resist the same solution and still there

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is not enough answer to what is the issue with the null. I would submit to the select board and the COA that David Boron followed the town policy regarding plowing and that that was why you did not get it. And Becky Torres may have

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green lit it, but any review of missing municipal law will tell you that the past errors or the past, you know, being nice and wanting to offer a service does not commit the town to continue further down that path. the town has it to follow its established policy which as

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of dis November in 2008 said that we plowed to the first null right um and so and I know that this this that list has g been given to each contractor since um it it does appear

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like you said that people went past that null um as a as a courtesy of the time but that's not something that I I think at this point um we have to stick with our town policy like we had said at another our other

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select board meeting is that this isn't something that we can do for one person and not others who may or be in similar situations where plowing stops at a certain point in their road. We can't do it because it's public

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funded by taxpayers. Um, we have restrictions legally. So, um, where would we like to go in the conversation from be here for the select board? Um, >> Don has his hand up.

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>> I go ahead. No, you go first. >> Well, just it seems to me there sort of Well, there's at least two issues here. It's sort of the issue of before I mean when when the road there's no question the road was plowed by Clarks and there was no qu there's no question I don't

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think that they were not plowing it according to what the the list was of places they would plow should plow um that's and sort of then there's this time period where that was going on there's a time period after that where we said okay we're not going to plow it

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well as Haley suggested just because we did it before has nothing to do was whether or not we should do it in the future. It's not it's not the issue. I mean the two things aren't they're just different issues to me. This before and after and the town could decide to do

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whatever it wanted to do during that time and there's nothing you could do to pre to prevent that from happening or it should happen. >> Yeah. I'm just thinking okay what's our objectives for today? I'm thinking there's maybe there's two. One is to uh um

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look at the history, recent history, and is there an apology or is it was there a lack of communication or whatever in this last year or so? I mean, I don't know. Um >> well, I can answer that question. I I don't think u maybe with the the change

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in that was not being plowed, but the contractor had been told to the null. So, okay. beyond that was more on that person's own rec um >> choice. >> Yeah. >> So, so there's that. Um and then um

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Haley has been really good about communicating back and forth with, you know, keeping the select board up. >> Yeah. Because I'm new to this, so I don't know the COA, so I'm I'm new to the select board, so I'm just coming on. Uh I'm a rookie. Uh the second one is, okay, what is our what is the policy

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going forward? I mean, we do have a policy that we all I think agree we should follow. >> Yes. >> And how do we effectively make that happen >> today and make sure everybody's clear on what that is? >> Yeah, I agree. Um, okay. I have a

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question. I'm Ron first. He had to stand up first. >> So, still my question has not been answered. So we're we're obsessing over the null as in the 25 years of documents with some gaps about what ought to be done. Birch drives he mentioned as a

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problem. Most years it was okay. Other roads were worse. This hasn't happened since 2023. Right. So while how I knew that I was told when I asked what

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was going on that there was an assessment done. There was no assessment done in in November of 2025 like it should have been. There was no assessment done before the bombing stopped. The assessment that was done was six weeks

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after the bomb stopped >> and LWA co LWAC and myself all asked for a response to the revolt I wrote which pretty much blows out the final determination.

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Still no response to that. But even so, my my plea is why can't we just solve the problem? If there's a problem with Birch, what is the significance of the null? That that's become like this mythic word.

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What does that even mean, the null? The the point is it is it okay in shape to plow? And the answer is yes, because it was plowed for 37 years over 300 times. So if there's something that needs to be

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done, why isn't it the approach to say we need to have this done for Birch Drive for us to feel that like the equipment is safe? The reason for the assessment that the town administrator told me on February 18th was to find the

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proper vehicle to plow the road. What happened next was the final determination to refuse to plow. So that sounds pretty disingenuous to me. So, I think that at the assessment part of it, we measured a lot of the road and

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we measured from the telephone poll, which is the the stopping point in all of our policy documents. Um, and the determination was that it was too narrow for a pickup truck. Um, and or not pickup truck, I'm sorry, too narrow for a plot truck. It had been narrowed.

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You've got this in construction in the Sleuth Lake with the the water drainage. it had narrowed it past shorter than 10 in or 11 feet. It was 10 and a half I think I remember measuring it um that day. And so part of that was also to see

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if it was safe enough because what was being determined and conveyed to us was that it was too dangerous to do. And so one minute you want to make sure that in there >> no I understand. Um and then uh so that was part of the assessment plus it was

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brought to our our attention so we had to do our due diligence to do that. Um as far as not replying to a rebuttal uh we understand that there is a disagreement with how the select board has felt and and what we've conveyed to

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you and um but we're not going to get in a circle continuing to rebut and rebut and rebut and rebutt. So we have to make a decision about this today. So or soon of are we going past that first um like like you

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said Eric and Jim are we going past that first telephone pole that goes down into the null top of the null down in or do we not? So that's part of it and that's our we'd have to change our policy of that case um for the future. The other

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thing is um is that there we like Kaylee said we are assessing all of the roads privately owned roads in town that the town pays to that taxpayers across the entire town pay for

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people's private roads to be allowed. And so we can't just narrow it down to one in this case and say, "Okay, well this okay, we've been doing it unbeknownst to us. The contractor is doing it. They weren't conveying that to

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us." Um we can't that that is an error in the contract. Um, I'm glad we have nice people working for us, but that is partly what has created the problem even though they've been told first no first

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telephone poll used interactively. Um, so I think that part is kind of things we have to figure out today. But I do I am sensitive to getting into a loop of of giving a determination and rebutting

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it and then having it rebutted and having it rebutted and rebutted. It's a circle we are not getting into. Ron, >> wait a minute. >> I had my hand up before Ron did. It's okay. I would really like to get in here. Um, so I think that this is a

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really complicated issue. It has become a very complicated issue particularly because of the back and forth and that is why I suggested that we maybe not necessarily make a decision today. Um, I what I had originally thought

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about asking is why was the policy on where to plow changed in 2008? Was it communicated to the LWA that there was a problem with plowing that part of the road? And according to policy at that

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time, had it been communicated to LWA, LWA should have tried to fix the road, there should have been some sort of conversation about that. I I don't understand I actually don't understand why the policy would have been changed

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and why we would not be plowing part of what is LWA's or has been LWA's understanding as you know part of the private roads that the town agreed to plow. So I don't I don't know. Maybe

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>> how do you know they know they know that they spot that? I don't understand how they know. >> Normally normally the procedure the procedure would be if there was a problem with plowing or stranding that the highway superintendent would communicate that to the LWA. Now it's

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the LWA's responsibility to repair the road so it can be safely taken care of. And if that didn't happen, I don't know why. If there was no conversation about that, I don't understand why that would be that >> in 2008. >> Yes. >> Well, I don't know that we can ever know

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that. We don't have meeting recordings from that date. And the minutes, we can check them, but they may not have captured that. And as far as what the lake association may or may not have known, >> we don't know. >> They do have a legal notice that dates

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back to 2003. This is from October where it does specifically say in the newspaper that Birch Drive will be plowed to the first null and that was in 2003. And this is a newspaper clipping and people are welcome, you know, you can take one and

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pass it down. But this does show that there was at least some record that that had been communicated in some sense. I think that one of the contributing factors in all this is that there was just not very good recordkeeping. When I

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looked to process Mr. Mech's public records request, there wasn't a copy of the policy that got mailed out. It was simply the document that listed the streets. So, there was actually no way to know what had been sent to residents. So, there's a lot of things that we we

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cannot confirm. But being here in in 2026, we have to look at what the policy says and we have to look at you know there there's a principle and I I don't know the legal ease to to say the name of it but there is a legal

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doctrine wherein municipalities cannot be forced to continue illegal unauthorized or mistaken actions of its employees. You know, those are the kind of things that, you know, when I took this job, I took off my senior center director hat and I put on my town administrator hat and they are two very

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different hats and at times they do overlap. But in this particular instance, it was a matter of looking at what is the policy and what does the law say and what can we offer. And that is why last year and again this year and

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when we talk about unanswered emails, I never got a response. But it would be perfectly appropriate for a municipality under any circumstance to say here's where our policy ends and here is where we can create a program that would bridge the gap between those two things.

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And that is that happens across municipalities in the Commonwealth for a variety of issues. And that's why I brought it up last year when we had the opportunity to apply to a life path grant and we could have paid stipens to ask volunteers to do shoveling for residents. Because when I think about

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this issue, I don't just think about Birch Drive. I think about the fact that there could be other seniors in the community who also cannot shovel their driveways. And how do we make something that is townwide and not person specific because as a municipality we have to do

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it for broad strokes and that I think would be a perfect way to address this kind of situation. You know, we could reach out to life path. We could reach out to village neighbors. We can reach out to our school system. We can reach out to the community at large root volunteers. They do this in many other

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municipalities. It's a COA service. If I was your senior center director, I would be telling you this is what we should do. This makes a lot of sense. And it's a good way to say, okay, like the policy says this, but the need is this. In much the same way when we talk about cooling

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centers. Well, should we open one? Shouldn't we? Well, how well what's the actual need, right? We have to think about what is the need and how do you make a program to fit that and I still think that that is a perfectly valid response to this situation and I and I will, you

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know, again just reiterate that >> and I just I just looked up online our minutes only go back to 2010 online. I wasn't able. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So, um, Massachusetts law,

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um, NGLC 40 6c, a Massachusetts town that agrees to apply a front road under this statute, is liable for injuries if it neglect, to do adequately, and to provide emergency

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access causes harm as they assume the duty of care. the duty of care by agreeing to apply the town takes on to maintain a reasonably safe condition for public travel including for emergency vehicles. So I think the state law seeks

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the town policy and still my question is what is the problem with the null? It's just like this mythic word. Why don't if there's a problem with the null, let's hear what it is and let's get LWA to

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repair it. And why is that not the solution? And in addition to that, this information is not correct about the width of the road. Mary Joe and myself, I sent I sent a tape measure and that the narrowest part of the road is 10 and

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1/2 ft. And you know why it's only 10 and a half feet instead of 12? Because David Baron graded the road in November for the purpose of plowing and made it narrower than it had been before. A lake road is

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20 ft wide so that there can be alterations made. It can be made wider. The the telephone pole that seems to be in question that may be impeding up on the road may call the utilities. this there can be a solution

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for you to fulfill the obligation of your policy under the state law. Why is this resistance happening? Let's so let's say what is it about a null and it's not their consistency and 25 years or 23 years of the yearly uh notes sent

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to Lake Biola and to residents who used to be sent to residents. I know because I've got probably 20 of them and was on the road cruise. That's how the thing was handled. That hasn't happened for two years, but yet we're here now. It can't be plowed. It's too dangerous.

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There wasn't even anything sent out to address birch drive or any. So if if if let's focus on the null and say where did that come from? >> What is it about the null that makes and if there is in fact a problem which

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there's still no true evidence, why don't we find out what that is? There's a couple things I just wanted to point out that that is but you know chapter 40 covers a lot more than I think is what being communicated tonight and you know the legal opinion that we

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have received from our town council is such that the town needs to follow its policy and that we are not beholden to prior administrative errors. It is the duty of the town officials town administrator to when there is an error and how the policy was applied to correct that error. That much is clear.

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Um, there's a couple other points that I wanted to just kind of highlight. So, the day that we did the assessment, Mary Joe, Mr. Mack, we had had a conversation at the end where I said, "We're getting ready to leave. Is there anything else that you want to communicate? Do you

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want any other photos? Is there anything else that you want me to know before we walk away?" And that conversation was, "No, this everything is fine. Thank you for being here." So there there was an opportunity to address any potential deficits at that time. It was not done,

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but and I don't want to get into the weeds because we're we're 7 months later. And 7 months later, we can see that in 2019, the former town highway superintendent deemed it un dangerous. And I believe that the reason for that is that there is no turnaround point.

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Trucks have to back out when they plow. That is simply unsafe. You cannot back you should not be backing out a plow truck in order to exit a part of a road. That is what makes it unsafe. I am quite sure that that is why Tim Hunting said

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that it was unsafe. And in the followup email >> one second >> in the followup >> in the followup email to Mr. Mech's rebuttal I did specifically say that the town would plow to the first null as

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stated in town policy. So and which I had reiterated on January 5th. So I have been very consistent in saying that this decision is couched in town policy which is what my responsibility is as your town administrator >> and what our responsibility as a select

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board is is too. Um >> so uh go ahead Ron and then I'm sorry I don't know your name. Before David Baron began plowing the road, the Clarks come back and forth, turned around and went

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out forward. I've sent photos to the town administrator to show the bottom of Burks Drive is in fact 100 ft by 50 ft wide. I'd like to know the vehicle that can't turn around in that area. The Clarks did it for 31 years.

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Part of the problem here is that David Baron doesn't want to do that and is trying to back out. So, there's a procedural error here. I don't know why that's what he's doing, but he's not turning around going out forwards. It's

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absolutely untrue that is not enough room to to uh to go around as far as what was said at the end um of the of the assessment. That's the assessment that the town administrator presented as a way to understand what vehicle was

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needed to plow the road which was not truly and the assessment was then used to underline the final determination. It was disingenuous and untrue. um have um

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I know the two select board members were on that um assessment with Dave and Haley, Mary Joe down and so when you go down there it does open up wider but the pro but there are driveways so the road itself

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which extends past into the woods um it's unfinished that whole space is not the road the road is only so wide And so without plowing private property driveways, there's no way to turn a

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truck around. >> Trucks plow over private properties all the time around the lake. They did at my house for years. >> But that's not the point. But >> what's your main >> Sorry, but I I need >> I understand that sometimes this contractors overdid what they were

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supposed to do. We have understood that that was something that going forward will need to be directed. What I'm saying is for us to make sure taxpayer money is only used to to plow roads

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and not private driveways is in this case the plow truck goes forward. there's no place for him to physically turn around on that private road without touching the private

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property of the two properties and so he must back out. Otherwise, he's plowing using town funds to plow actual private property. So that is also part of the problem. If he has to turn that truck

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around, he is now doing a large swap for both private owners down there. We have to make sure as a as taxpayer funded contract that that's not occurring. That would be like for us to go to, I don't

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know, Tenwend and plow their driveway to turn around. They can't do that. So, he has to back out to stay within the parameters of taxpayer money. Go ahead, Bruce. Um, my name is Bruce Harley. I live 25

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Great Barns. Been living there for 26 years. I'm deeply saddened and discarded to see this

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going on. And I use the word spread in Brahma among us humans. No, it goes on all over planet earth. But anyway, here we I was a me I've always been a member of

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LWA was on the board various committees roads committee interacted with Tim Fontine many times Dennis Clark many times and I also had

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with David Borl. So confirming what to say, I'll say um as humans make the rules. We make them. We make them. how we make them.

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I I feel like sort of what has disappeared. It was good amongst um the Luola association. Um

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the kind of humans involved there and the town change of humans goes on all the time. week I'm go in various positions and um

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there was oh and I attended the select board meeting back whenever it was that um the select board voted to

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fry plow our plow our robes um as long as it was maintained for plowability which is the responsibility of the LWA and yes they are private roads

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um reg I went to the registry of deeds when I was on the road command way and I got the deed in 1951 when the clothes there were dead given to the L way

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to own. So where am I going? Um, this is the first erupt first. I don't know if I'm using the right words, eruption. First of of

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this of the snow line around our roads never happened before. Um and my memory recalls and asking the town selecting

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originally was that the uh it was goodwill us land owners around the lake who own Yes. We pay our tax money to Tom Papley

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who grateful to be living there. Um, and in exchange, partial exchange for that was the town willing to spend the money um to plow, not to maintain, but to plow

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goodwill of the town. I'm not sure what else to say. I have a quick question that maybe Dave can answer for us. How does the town plow roads like rigs and stole without utilizing private property to turn their

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rigs around to go back house? >> Roads are wider. So they're able to turn around in the middle of the road, not utilizing private property to get out. >> Dave is going to answer that question.

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>> It's a town, not a private. >> Okay. But when you go down stole road, you're in there driving this. It's actually the end of the road. They don't have driveway down there. It's the end of the road. It ends right at their

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wall. So they don't actually own that part where they park. They they park on the lawn on the side. In the winter time they park on the side is an accepted road. It's not a private road. So

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>> Okay. Well, what about bricks? Cuz if you end up in a driveway, you go all the way al. >> Okay. So where do you how do you turn around the line? assessment says that we need to have a turnaround down there and we're applaud saying that road again.

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>> Okay. >> It's it's just >> okay. >> We're in the process of that process. >> So, moving forward, we did an assessment on all the private roads and the roads that we need to do until >> the Yeah, the ones that are listed in the policy.

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>> Um when will we determine that that will be possible including wrongs? forget the no thought thing just how do we move forward on this? We can sit here we we month listen to all this about private

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what was this and that let's make a determination to find out how we can fix it. So we ha we have to as a select board have to go to follow our policy here that was uh correct original right >> in 2008

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>> in 2008 which means >> that we have that it ends at the null at that telephone card. >> So um that's what we have to abide by without we would have to go through a policy change. We're doing an assessment

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of all the roads now. So that there will be an there will be a new change. >> There will be a No, it all that does is it tells what maintenance like what uh trees need to be trimmed, potholes need to be fixed, roads need to be widened.

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It's all those maintenance things that is then turned over to LWA and says these need to be fixed or these roads won't be plowed. >> I can answer a process question. So it would either be through a policy change. That's one avenue. The second avenue is

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and I I think Mr. Hartley asked a great question. Goodwill. What does goodwill look like in 2006? Clearly when this policy was written, goodwill looked like the town providing the service. But as we all know, laws, conditions, things change over time. So either you would do

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a policy revision and then it would have to ultimately go back to the LWA. they would be responsible for any changes or you create a program which is what I had mentioned earlier those are your two means of redress so short of one and having one doesn't necessarily preclude

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you from having both but certainly policy changes can take time road regrading or widening it would change time so one thing that would be a surefire way would be to create a policy or not sorry wrong

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program that addresses the need. >> And those are your two options. >> And Ron's the only one right now that you consider our private road. Dr. Gail determined to do his. >> Has anyone else has anyone else in town come forward and said there was a

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problem? >> Well, what I what I'm suggesting in terms of programmatically is that you you very well could have older adults who live in the community who cannot get out of their front door. >> I understand that. So that that was where I was thinking. Um I haven't had a chance yet to fully review the

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assessment that Dave has done, so I couldn't answer that question. I would say that um but based on where did I put it? Um you know, when you look at this, it looks to me like Birch Drive is unique

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and that it is the only one which lists any kind of Oh, actually that's not true. If you look um in the same policy the revision the 2008 version you can see that King Road has a parenthesis where it says locked pond road number 34. >> Yeah. So that so there are two roads in

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this policy that have some kind of carve out where there's >> I think beyond the Carver road and the other ones not I feel like the rest the ones that are noted don't have a exit. There's no exit for the ones that are noted like arch and and this one there's

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no exit. Um, the other ones are drive-thru, right? All the way to another road. >> No, >> they're not dead ends. >> I'd have to look at >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yes, yes, yes. >> There are many roads around the lake that have no exit. >> Including mine.

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>> I only glanced at the ones I know that had. So, that's my mistake. >> Um, >> I I would let me just insert. I would hate to see a policy imposed on the Lake Viola Association where they had to create turnarounds at the end of every single one of their roads. I think that

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that's highly unrealistic. >> Even at the end of B of and Carver, it would be really hard as well. >> Yeah. >> Plus, you you'd have to take you you would basically have to take I don't know. I just can't I just can't imagine it happening if I'm perfectly

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honest based based on how people have their their yards set up, how much encroachment has happened over the years. Um it would be very difficult to create turnarounds at the end of every single road that's plowed um >> around the lake. Yeah,

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>> but I think one thing too that you know again this this is a very complicated issue and I I say that with full earnesty. It is very complicated. There are many layers. One of the additional layers that you have to consider is that as a municipal vehicle, plowing of private roads carries with it far more

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liability than simple plowing of public ways. So when the town is looking at how do we make it safe for a town vehicle, we have to be mindful of the fact that our liability risk increases exponentially. If something were to happen on a private road, we are responsible for instead of for example

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um if if there's damage on a public road, we have about 30 days or the resident has 30 days. There's five years between the damage of a private road to when they have to notify the town of that damage and the rates increase. Our

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insurance company has advised many other clients that it is very risky to do this. And so that's why, you know, when we make a policy, we have to be mindful of that because we don't want to put ourselves in a situation where we're going to be inadvertently creating a much greater liability later on. Which

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is why, you know, again to go back, what does goodwill look like in 2026? Well, they didn't have this insurance, these parameters in whenever this follows. >> I'm I'm curious about whether our contractor's vehicles are covered under a town's insurance

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>> because we're not really talking. >> We're talking about David Baron's vehicle. We're not talking about a town vehicle that's plowing that area. Am I wrong about that? Well, I don't know enough about insurance to know whether or not he would then be personally

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liable for it. I think we that's >> it would happen to be that way. He might know >> liable anything that Dave >> he's our subcontractor contract. It's not responsibility

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completely. Um, if he damages a car, he has a car with his plow or that's that's his personal that's his liability insurance. It's that car we're talking about less. We're talking about um I took the highway vehicles off of those

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roads because I need them for the main roads. >> Um, and those highway vehicles are very valuable in the winter time. I lost two of them last year. If I lose two trucks, some of the main roads and some of even the gravel roads don't get plowed on time. And then I get

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complaints from people on accepted roads because these vehicles go down. And so if if a a vehicle that is slated for town road does damage on a prior,

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the effect is the same. It takes away from all the other separate roads in town. I can tell you right now, winter's storm budget has been blown out of abortion for many years. >> And the reason why is because we're

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doing more than what we should be doing. And the liability is huge. I only went by what I saw on policies and what I saw on the newspaper clippings. whatever left behind would have breaks free and inspired the

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private roads. Okay. So, I was still grasping what to do with these private roads last year. Um, and I had talked to the bully bar and I hired part saying he has a smaller truck and it is still too

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big for some of them roads. He said he has to back in, back out. That's huge liability. Uh, all you have to do is have one kid on a sled slide down a hill somewhere on those private roads and they then uh Dennis car drive over in

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one of the sand trucks backing auto racking in. It's it's a huge liability for the town. So my biggest fear is, you know, a town's trying to do something nice. They've done a nice job over the past years, you know, trying to make sure that some of these roads are

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cleared for emergency vehicles and stuff. And you you'll be surprised some of the complaints I get from residents on a private road about the way their roads being plow sanded and the town's doing it on everybody's dime, not just

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the people who live on on private roads. So I have think of it as everybody's dime is being used for roads that they don't even have access to. It's not even a public access to them. >> That's not true. Then there's signs everywhere saying flat road public

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access. >> Wait, let him finish, please. >> Uh, so I'm just saying the town just needs to re-evaluate and find out where where we're going to get the funds to take care of these pirate roads. Um, and and that's the problem. It has been a

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burden on the highway department and on the town and all the residents in town to take care of these roads in the winter time, not just the private ones. I'm talking about Armenians. We still don't have enough of a budget to take care of

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and they did up $10,000 this year, but it's still we were $93,000 over on snow and ice budget last year. So, is it a burden to the town? Absolutely. >> Can't even buy a truck for that. >> Just Dave, while you're talking, what

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what's your sense of this whole situation? like that, you know, ultimately it sort of boils down to me to like you having to decide, okay, we'll plow this, we won't plow that. But as far as I'm concerned as a select board member, so like you're the town's

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voice, you have to decide because it's your crew, your trucks, your whatever. What's your sense of this whole situation? >> Fil on that policy says that I have to inspect the roads. If I see a road that I I truck

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flip over on or a truck gets stuck in, if if a truck flips over, the truck's gone in the rest of the winter time. If a truck goes off the road, I have to personally go and get in the machine, go down there, and I have roads that I have

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to go down go down there, pull the vehicle out, and I'm also taking that piece of machinery in risk trying to pull something out. I'm not a tow truck company and a lot of tow truck companies won't even go down there until I go down

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by fan so that they can get there. >> So now I can take in all there's only three of us full-time employees on this highway department. There's over 30 miles of accepted roads not counting private

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roads. So my assessment to this is we need to re-evaluate where the money comes from. How how is this going to be taken care of so that the town doesn't have a liability on it? That's my thought. >> I I agree with Mr.

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>> U. Yeah, we want to we care about our residents. We care about our people. But when when as a highway director, that policy puts a lot of pressure on me to go around and inspect all these roads and say, "Listen, I can't do this. I can't do that." I I inspected one road.

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the greater the road with its. So if a truck tries to back down in there, there's a slope on that road. And if that truck backs over, hits some ice and goes down on that slope, stops, flips over, but isn't even a town truck. It's a contractor's truck. You know, how

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would I feel if the the poor guy that I asked on the road wrecks his truck or or equipment that he spent thousands and thousands of dollars for? So that policy puts a lot of pressure on. a highway superintendent to say listen we can't do this we can't do that and and then then

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you get the feeling you know you want to help people and you know that's that's a big responsibility for Ohio those are my feelings on it that's just feelings as far as the laws go and as far as what policies are in place that I

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have to go violence so I'm not I'm not trying to go beyond policy by saying I'm not going to go past a hump in a road where there's a telephone pole where I think the truck's going to get stopped down in there. It's a decision that the town's put on me because of this policy. Okay? So, I'm

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not I'm not Everybody thinks that the highway superintendent just hates them. That's not true. We love our residents. We love people. I want people to be safe. I want you to be able to get out of your driveway if you need to go to your doctor's appointment. That's not the point. The point is

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what is my responsibility is to plow and sand accept the roads and follow policies that the town has in place >> and what is the just to add to that too Dave what is the responsibility of the person of the of the owners of the road

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right and that that's also a large part of this is what the owners are responsible to to do um before I call on people did you have any thoughts Jim Before I >> Well, um I just have thoughts about the

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overall >> Okay. >> process. >> Do you want to Yeah. >> Um I um Sorry, Ron. I did see Susan and that talks. >> Oh. Um I had one question. Why was not

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till January the 1st after two years before that you endorsed that policy of the normal would be one question. As far as the turnaround, Tom just did a search for me. 20 feet needed to turn a a

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pickup truck around. And in fact, those adjoining properties, we can infer and we can we can legally infer that the town has access to both my part of it and to the neighbor's part of it to use that to turn around as happened 37

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years. Question. >> Yes. How do you turn a truck around? 20 foot turnaround in a truck without touching and plowing private property >> so they can turn around >> because the road is 20 ft wide. But the the issue of I mean this is just again

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more and more resistance resistance resistance no solution focus and now we're talking about a whole bunch of stuff that's not on the agenda and situation burst drag is getting lost in the rhetoric >> and still we don't still we don't have a

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clear answer to that. If if that's true, why was it blowd for those two years and then suddenly stopped without notification, without warning, without please do this? In in addition to the fact that David Baron prepared the road

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for plowing himself. >> He was he was paid by a private person to do any construction. It was related was not related to a town request. That was on his own recgnissance paid by private people. >> Understood. Right. So can't say then

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that he can't plow it after he prepared it for blowing. That would seem to, you know, cause some concern. >> Well, but Dave, can I ask you just a question? Um, when you when you hire a contractor, Dave or

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Dennis or whoever to plow, you hand them a list of what they're supposed to do, and that's the contracted >> they have, >> right? So that >> might or I think it was 10, >> right? So that list included the null

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because our policy included not pass the null. >> That that's just what was written in the bank where was not passed first. So, >> look, it was plowed. It was plowed until January 1st, but Ron, we've determined

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that our contract with the subcontractor says to this point, he went past that on his own, you know, continued it for whatever reason he chose to do that, but his legal obligation was to what we supplied him in his contract.

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That is how we what we've determined has happened. He chose to go further and did not let us know. But like Haley said and like like Donna has told us, we can't we that's an error of an employee

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doing going beyond that that that's the determination of why it happened and why it was bad. >> But still we have not established what the pro even where the mole is and what is the problem with the mole. It just becomes this magical word. So let's get it done. What are some songs with the

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null and square circles? >> Yeah. >> So, and Jim's right. We are we are going in circles. And when I visited and did the assessment, the null and knowing it's a telephone pole that's the top of the null. The null goes down. So it says

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to the to the null be first null, right? Not beyond that. >> I have a I have a technical question. >> Did Mr. Borne did you give Mr. born instructions on how to do the repairs to the road. Was that something that the town communicated?

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>> So again, we have a situation where a contractor has done work without town authorization and we are in a situation. >> But but then why why did you not I what I'm not getting is why didn't LWA understand that that road didn't need to

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be prepared for plowing and wasn't being plowed? I like there's a communication missing here. I can answer that list that I got from Tim Viles and from the maps said all the roads need to be inspected

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and the ones that were listed on a list and on the map. It said to the first null on Bur trial. So the inspection only went to the first null on Birch Drive didn't go any further than that. So there wouldn't be any instructions on how to fix the problem on the end of

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Birch Tri. So all I got was the list of what to inspect. Um and what I did not do the inspection last year. Um I went to Dbor Park and I asked them you have any

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concerns? These are the guys that are plowing and saying, "You have any concerns about any of the roads that are on the exit? Let me know." Um, and then I went down and I looked and I wrote down some things about fixes and trees and bushes and stuff like

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that. I sent it to a car and brace that never got done. We still apply on sage. It still happened. So, I mean, it's not like we're not trying to help and we're not trying to be nice to people. It's just that what the instructions I had were to inspect the

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first null. That's where that's where it ended. So when when you brought up the issue of going for passive first null that's a whole different inspection that's not even on the inspection. >> How does the rationale to stop plowing that I was told by the town administrator an assessment that

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happened on the auto >> it did get plowed to the first because >> you're saying the assessment only went to the poll but but what I was told is the assessment to stop plowing was past the poll. So, how you're just you're just saying that's not

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>> what what's happened, right? I was only going by what Tim had in file and what I had for the list and the maps and it but even anything that was supposed to be sanded was in red and, you know, I just went by what I had that was in the files

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and a lot of it isn't, you know, super clear, >> but a lot of it is institutional knowledge, too. >> Exactly. And Dave had been plowing those roads for a long time. And Dave Dave told me he never went past the N. And Dennis Clark said he won't back his truck down.

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Um he went to the N and stopped and he even actually backed up to the top of the hill and some sand out there. But he he said he won't back past that because he's afraid of not getting out. So these are the contractors that I count on to take care of those roads. And when they

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have a concern, I have to take that seriously because I do not want anybody getting hurt. I don't want anybody getting, you know, damaging their truck and the town being liable for private roads that aren't even accepted to be done. >> So So why don't these concerns about

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sanding go to the LWA? >> Well, the policy doesn't even require sanding this year. >> No, it doesn't. >> What happened last year? early >> look at it say, >> you know, see what they fix or made repair.

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>> So, what you're saying is stuff is going to the LWA, but then they're not following through to do anything about it. >> I haven't seen anything done and and I used to plow speed down there, nice sand down there to the one ton, and half the places you go with the one ton you can't

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get in and out of. and and he's not the only one that has a goal, a birch drive extension, not birch drive extension, but a great lines extension that has a null at the end of it and there's a drive and it drops off >> right >> right off that null. If we go past that

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null, we're not getting out of there even in that categ. So there there's a lot more of the dynamics involved in and whether or not a highway truck or even a contractor truck can actually get in there and do what he has to do. And private private

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plowing, right? I I used to plow drivers myself and people would tell me how they want me to plow their drive and I would tell them whether I could do that or not before the winter starts. And that's exactly what's happening with these

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private roads. We're we're saying we can't as of this need to be fixed or we can't plow and see it or get someone else to do it. So you know what I'm saying that that's what happens with a private plot. If the born I will tell you this dating

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born inside he doesn't want to plow those roads because of a hassle you're going to pay what times were you paying right now those pls those roads plow I guarantee it he is the expense of him and and he knows those

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roads like the back of his hand. So he does it in actually a very precise timing >> um so that we can actually get them to stand it. So at this point we have probably the best

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situation and in place but does the town have a burden doing pilot loads according to state law according to liability those types of things town really needs to be figured out. Okay.

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>> And that and that's just, you know, just so you understand. Nobody's trying to say I want to help you. That's not that's not the point. I think that's the part that's misunderstood here is those roads have been done for free for residents for so

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many years and the towns to build and now taxes to >> Yeah. >> the highest tax. You're a little >> Yeah. I just after hearing all this to

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me, the first thing I heard earlier was this is complicated. I I guess I don't think it's that complicated because we have a policy. We have a very clear policy in my opinion. Um we all see it and it's really up to the department head to implement that policy. Most of

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this most of this pol policy and we have a department head here, the highway department that's responsible for doing that. And there's no one in this room that knows better than a department head how to manage the equipment, what the equipment can do not. And I don't I'm

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not in a position to tell the highway department head how to do his job. Just I wouldn't want to tell the fire department how to put out a fire. Just like I wouldn't want to tell the school people, the principal how to educate the kids. We put these people in place to do these jobs because that's not our skill

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set. Uh so that's the second point. Uh the sec the third is is goodwill. That's the solution to this is goodwill. And Haley mentioned a couple of examples. I think you brought up goodwill. There was a way we've done goodwill in the past. Um Haley brought a couple of examples

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out. We could do goodwill on this in this particular example. I'm sure there's plenty others. We've got a a community here that's full of goodwill. So I think we come up with lots of ways to solve this. uh with regards to goodwill um it is money and the COA is

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here representing this group. Um the COA also represents uh people that are older. One of their biggest concerns is is a fixed budget. they don't have a lot of money and here we are talking about going out and spending their money

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uh older people uh to take care of private private issues and uh I think we as select board of town ministry are responsible for looking out the other people that may become the COA people with fixed budgets that are dealing with paying taxes also and seeing their tax

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rates go up so that's a pos part of responsibility Great. Okay. I have three main things I want to say. And this first one is it seems to me at issue here is the definition of null. And you ought to think about

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defining the null by how many feet it is from the road that it connects to because we don't agree on what the definition of a null sort of what looks like geographically. So, how about measuring it from the street? Okay.

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Secondly, I see there's a big problem here. And it's a problem because the town inherited or had a summer colony which turned into an all year round colony and roads that would not have been an issue in the summer become an

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issue when there's a question of plowing them. But I also think that does the town have a responsibility to make sure that emergency vehicles can reach the citizens who live around Lake Lyola. And that's not my question. That's not my

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question to answer. It's your question. Okay. Thirdly, there is another issue here which has been important for the COA as well as plowing and sanding Birch the whole of Birch Drive and that is how a senior citizen was not treated with

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respect. and he at the very least deserves an apology for the way his road was all of a sudden in the middle of a snowy winter, not plowed, not sanded. He was never told in advance, "We're going to have to quit plowing your roads. You

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need to find another solution." He was not given that time. He was not given the courtesy of having his telephone calls to DPW to not the DPW, but the roads highway department to find out what was going on. So, he was just not treated. And when he wrote trying to

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communicate with people about why he thought his road should be um plowed as it had been in the past, he was not really answered. He was told no, your road's not going to be plowed. But he was not given a proper explanation. And I think it's the responsibility of sled

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board to deal with these issues which are not which are wider issues. COA needs to know that senior residents are going to be treated with respect if they have some kind of concern to bring to the town. Thanks. There's Susan. I think um just to go I don't

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want to um I think I think maybe we should since the null definition was whoever created that as a boundary. I think you know maybe we do redefine what null is if we address the although the telephone poll has also which is at the top of the null has also been used. So I

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think that's something we can do is define that. >> Investigation include why it's a problem which has still not been answered. >> Um Well, >> one reason it's a problem is it is that Mr. Boron doesn't apply it, right? Am I right about that?

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>> No, it's the turnaround point. >> Well, the I know that's the policy, but slow to inspect and that was to first I believe it's going to bounce around. >> Yeah. No, it is multiple what is the rationale? Assume that it's a problem. Okay. Assume that it's some

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terrible problem. What is the re what are the specifics of the problem pertaining to beyond the null that's still not answered and just to keep going back I say the null's here the null's there it was listed there it was listed okay but it

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was where did that come from >> well the the problem with the null is that our policy said to stop at the null and the contractor was going past the null that's that's unbeknownst to

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That is that's the issue. >> But it came from >> Hold on one second. One second. As I as I said earlier in this meeting, I I believe that this question has been answered. The the issue with the null is that it is so steep that you have and

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you there's no turnaround point. So you have to back the vehicle out. That is the issue. And whether or not it is true is a question that we can continue to debate for however long we want. But to say that the question wasn't answered

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that is the answer and we have said that repeatedly during this meeting >> that should be answered with something that's true and there is a space to turn around with permission of the land owners of which I am one and was also on the other side with the permission

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surely you have the right of way to turn around in the 50 foot wide area the >> Yes. And then it became the issue of the private property and the plowing of that. So I I do believe that even you know we can sit here and say argue

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semantics and what is subjective and what is not but the the reality is the town has provided these answers. I I apologize if the communication in the beginning was not there. I certainly when I became aware of the issue always responded. I I had conversations with

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you about I will reach out to you only if I have updates. I cannot respond to every email, but I can certainly say, you know, yes, I will update you when that information is available. It was communicated that that was the policy that we were following. You know, I you know, I just I'm

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wondering, you know, we've been at this for an hour and a half and I'm not sure that we've hit any new ground in the last and I do I do admit, you know, there is some what I might personally do in this

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situation just as you know would be very different. But I it's not I can't we have to do what is set forth in our policy. you have to do what is right for the entire town when any decision we make like Jim said we're not just

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looking out for um one narrow it's it's the whole it's the whole area maybe it's this is a situation where we assess do we want to even go forward in private roads is it something we want that risk for because our job as risk managers

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right do we even want to do that maybe maybe we don't but what I'm saying is is um I think Hay's right we're going in circles And I do think we should define the null. I think there is a a large part of responsibility for a lot of this with

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the LWA. It's their roads. We're just trying to make sure they have also a responsibility of making sure emergency vehicles >> responds to the road. >> Speaking Ron, please let me finish.

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Um I think that they have a large responsibility also for private for the um emergency vehicles to go down there. These are private roads. Our hands are tied in many ways because of statute and and

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limitations on us. So I think um I think we've gone like we've in circles. I is the is the select board um are we able to make a determination in a vote in any

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way? I know our assessment is in the works with Dave was assessing his doing his the burden of his job with this policy. Um and that's how we left it the last time was we were going to do the assessment and then you know um what are your

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feelings? I guess I'd say pending pending the new assessment. I'd say we should be following this policy. Maybe we can change it if they won't change the we get the assessments. That's a different thing. But right now, that's what the policy is. Whatever's happened

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before this is Well, I don't know. >> We can't Yeah, >> we we can't change it. That's the way it is. >> Okay. Jim, did you have defense? >> Yeah, I think it's sticking with the policy. I mean I think even what you describe as far as going out doing an

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assessment I mean that's part of the process anyway right Dave what can you say that so this is I I don't I think this is pretty clear is we can is we follow the policy as we understand it and implement you know maybe there's been some lack of implementation in the

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past or not but we follow this policy that's our responsibility to follow it my opinion >> uh >> and I also Maybe a suggestion is we just uh we can work maybe separately on goodwill with different ways of of

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solving this. >> Yeah. >> But there's a lot of people in town outside of the lake area that have private roads that go to their houses that have >> ways of taking care of them >> on their own privately. And so that means there's a lot of different solutions out there.

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>> And it is to add one thing um sorry to interrupt you Jim is >> a question not that there's an answer. So someone lives on a private road and say I my tax page our dollars go to plow and sand these roads.

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Why not me? And how do we explain that? >> Yeah, that's that's that's sort of the other way what I'm saying. Sort of my point. Yeah. In a different way. Yeah. There's a lot of private long rides up to a lot of houses that people need to take responsibility on their own

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>> and do >> and do >> and do and there are pl >> but presumably there was a reason why the town agreed initially to be responsible for plowing the private roads which usually have multiple houses

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on them. Yes, >> that's not all private roads. It's there's only a handful. the one the but there was an agreement to do the ones. >> This has been an issue for as long as I can remember this town. Yeah. And um >> and I think in other towns it also private road. We're partly the only town

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that has this issue. Um so it's been going on for a long time. >> We've been dealing with Tim has been doing this poor guy comes in and gets a policy and says I got to do this and I got to do this. I'm sorry. >> I think >> this is what you've been doing. This you haven't been doing this. You've been

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doing something else. That's why we need to figure out change the policy and moving forward. We can't >> and that's on us that we make policy. I think the first policy even was before Tim

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>> but he was here the longest and he made his own things and then they changed administrations and then he has to do what this says for him to do. >> So that's on >> and if he didn't we would all be at him. he did something that was not in there,

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something happened, >> did you end the hook, >> right? >> And so, and so that's our job is is to to think, do we do we, you know, do we need to adjust this at some point um and change that? You don't have to raise

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your hand, Eric. I know lots of people, but I just want to say to Susan, I mean, I agree with what you made, the point, all those points you made, AB, B, C, D, 1, 2, 3, 4. I would agree with them completely with maybe the exception of the last one here saying the whole back and forth thing. I'm not sure. There's a

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point where Haley for example has written a letter saying this is the way it is and like then some back and forth is supposed to happen. Well, she doesn't have a day to write letters to people, but the other stuff I agree with. I think we should apologize and I I know I am apologizing and I think we should the

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town should apologize to Ron for like stopping the service in the middle. the way it happened is not good and I I would be the first to admit that and take responsible for it or whatever and I think other people would too. We'll blame Jim even though he >> know

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that. >> That's all those those are those are the things I I just want to say that I agree with what most of what you talked about. >> Dave and we got to wrap this up at some one of us has to get back to work.

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And it does state that the select board makes a decision whether or not the town would be burdened by stew doing certain private roads and so forth. So it is up to the select board to make this decision as to whether or not accept the

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policy or not a policy. So at this point we have had a lot of changes since 2001 or even 2008 need to reassess whether or not this town

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of the amount of money it's costing take care of this town whether or not the town has the funds to take care of us. That's the only thing I have to say is do we have this is a burden now on time it's in the law that

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if it becomes a burden the select board can make a different decision. So that's my thought. I think the select board needs to revisit and see where we're at in 2027 fiscal year and whether or not we can even afford to do this. >> Right.

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>> Um >> and that's right and that's something we have to that's that's our burden to do. Right. That's what we have to do. and um and and we need to collect some information on that, right? We need to see how much has it cost over the last five years to do that. How much is the future cost going to be, right? So, that

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is something that we will that we will have to look at. I'll let um Tom and Ron and then I think you're going to end the meeting because um we are going in circles. >> Thank you so much, Tom Seager. Uh the points have been building up as the

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meeting has gone on. I'm trying to pair them down to the more important ones. Um, I admire you for really thinking about what does the policy say and let's follow the policies. Um, I think what we're witnessing today in part is a

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culmination of inconsistencies over the years about queuing to that line. And I can find many instances in our town of when what one thing says isn't what is actually done or vice versa. Something

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is done but it doesn't say you can do that. Um this policy is an example. Apparently people have been doing more than policy said you should do my house in 1986 and its deed and I consider it de policy statement says no

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non-caucasian shall ever live or own this house. 1986 and nobody called that after it became illegal in 1962 to write those things down and they were probably be written down. Um would anyone enforce that policy even though it's written? So

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there can be wrong policies. There can be illegal policies. Practices can misalign the policy for many reason. Sometimes it's the policy isn't right. Um I'm not speaking to whether or not this policy is right for the snow plow. There are informal policies that exist

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in Sheep's Berry such as posting certain private roads as nobody but the residents for deliveries may come may come down here. That's not legal. Those roads are public access once they've opened themselves up to things like garish collection and um so

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and so unfortunately it can become a perception that like oh that's a private road special treatment you know I'm public I'm not and it's just not true. The sign says one thing, but the reality is different. So, I'm just noting that we have inconsistencies in our town historically, probably any town does.

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>> There are signs like that around Lake Wyola >> and they're not trying to follow the UAS. Well, actually, I don't know why, but I've come to my second point. Which important entity is not at this conversation

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witnessing? The owner of the Reboot. Where are they? Mhm. >> I know this meeting happened. My goodwill brought me here. >> They've been really >> Everyone's goodwill brought us here today to try to find a solution and I'm just curious about why I'm such an

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important party I haven't recognized here. And I'm sorry if I'm misreing somebody who's actually representing you. >> They relatively silent on the issue. >> Um and I have a sense that they silent on the issue and I I find that unfortunate because that could that could have talked today. we might not

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have been here at 93 minutes into it. Um, so I encourage you please, I guess I've made enough other points. um for going forward, would you please consider looking at when you're doing your um the assessment that you're about to do,

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please go all the way to doing a diverse trial for that assessment. And please offer if possible and if it's not possible, please explain why it's not any mitigations that can be taken on that road that would indeed make it

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amendable to the equipment to the plowing people and whatnot. so that maybe work could be done and we could hope perhaps that the road owner might take that on, but maybe we need to get a program together and other people could help make that happen. Um, I live

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on a road with very steep pitches or grade if that's the word. It has nles if that's what they're called. The snow plow goes down and backs up all the way down or backs up to get back out. the garbage truck backs down our road and it

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freaks me out because I don't know which human being, child or adult or anything could get caught up in that and it's clear that on our road on the laurels that tribal properties are

332
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sometimes inundated by the activity of these service vehicles and whatnot. And I hadn't quite thought about it in the same terms as I brought it up, but it's an issue. It's concerning and um so I'm just hoping that with this assessment

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will come signs and instructions about how to get to what I believe is the solution all of us want because as it's been mentioned like everything is there once what they feel they should get for their taxes including snow plowing. Nobody likes to

334
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think that they're taxed they're doing something they shouldn't be. Um like plowing where plowing shouldn't happen. But I would imagine the solution was for everyone to get plowed. If I look at the limits here, number 34 King Road for

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example, that's where the last occupied house is on the street. So the rest of the street isn't dealing with occupied houses. Burst drive is different because you actually have an occupied house being affected by this policy. emergency services and everything else the the age of the person can help. So I'm just very

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hopeful and my biggest request is going forward that you can perhaps use an assessment to justify the policy change and yes the policy change might go to an extreme of no private road plowing and that could be understandable. I

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understand that. Uh but if it doesn't spell out more clearly uh for these spaces, what if there's no plow on private road? What can be done? You need to change that and make it doable. >> My own witnessing is that it's very

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possibly doable. I've I've seen that it's been done there and I've seen it be done at very similar roads. So um I hope that's clear. Thank you. Sorry to interrupt you. not even so Jim mentioned you can give assessments and I had

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mentioned this at the last meeting uh I'm all for that you know I mean I have become kind of the poster child from this thing that's got got expanded to all of this and created a big issue and I do feel I'm getting lost in the swirl of it um I will note regarding LWA that

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LWA on their own wrote asking for respons asking for respons rebuttal rebuttal. Tell them you may soon ask for a response. I ask for a response to the rebuttal to the assessment that's already been done.

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So I don't know, you know, I don't know what do we do with the assessment that's already been done that seems to be invalid by all all accounts of the people that have have seen it that I've presented it to that why am I being set

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aside from all the other houses uh regarding assessments and I'm the only one that's not going to complow when you may find even worse things going on there. So again, my my question is what is the problem about

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the null? Can it be re remediated? And I know that it can it can be I mean I would like to see it. I've done everything on it myself. I would like to see that happen. I I don't think it's it's it's cast in stone and it's like the the edge of the earth,

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right? But I think you know basing not applying on final determination which is in question by a point bypoint response from me and agreed upon by like 25 people asking for a response. I don't know how how I can hear that

345
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everything's been responded to but the most critical component of all has not been responded to and thank you and I app and I appreciate the situation here. I completely understand. I just would like not to get swept up in the swirl of

346
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the whole thing while it's getting sorted out. Probably won't take years. I imagine >> I think um I think as far as a rebuttal goes that the will be the same.

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I don't know that we like we understand that we understand that our initial our initial assessment I we understand Ron is not exactly what you wanted and not exactly the determination was not what you wanted. I like I said before if you

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if if we rebut you were but it was just a constant circle we understand that you >> that's why I asked the question earlier about who was part of that assessment and it seems like all the right people were the people that needed to be there so I don't understand >> was the narrow and that's that's a big

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effort to get all these people together to go out there to go out there and take a look and make and having the right people to having the right people >> way be happy to talk >> I'm just saying an assessment was done and you had all the right people there to do that assessment. >> Okay.

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>> Who was not there that was not the right person? You had to select for the county administrator, the highway person and a person from the council on aging. >> There probably shouldn't have been a planning board member because there's a planning board criteria in the policy about shared driveways and that's the plan a zoning. >> Well, we were assessing it for danger

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and for ability to be plowed the shared driveway aspect. That was the primary opinion. by the way point >> the important person they're all important people to be there but having the head of the highway department there

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and and making a judgment again that's our town expert on what can be done or not done >> just contested by >> vision again that's that's why we don't go and tell Lenny how to put out fires knows how to do that the superintendent of school we don't tell them how to

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teach our kids um >> well That's why we say we pay and we hire the head of the department. The head of the highway department, >> head of the highway department um who knows the equipment better than any of us in this room who knows who's

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out there every day working these roads. That's the person we rely on to make a judgment what's safe to do or what's not safe to do. >> Can I can I just ask more of a procedural question? >> Sure. And then we're going to end our meeting. >> Actually, can I say something after? And

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then we're going to end our meeting. >> Oh, okay. Go ahead. >> Got to talk. >> Go. >> That's important. >> So, my perception here is that there's some pretty strong um differences of change. Uh, I would say as someone

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representative of the COA, someone was that was at the assessment. Um, I think that there are and and and the person that was helpful in in writing this stuff down. I think that there are some things that were not taken into account.

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Um, when we ended the assessment, we didn't really speak among each other about what we had seen. Had we talked about it, I would have made some of the points. But it was snowing. It was cold and we all just

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kind of split apart and left. So my perception having left that assessment was that we were looking at that to determine if the road could be plowed. There was never a question in my mind as someone that was at the assessment of whether or not this is an actual road

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that should be plowed. Um there was never and and to me I never knew what was measured as the as the width of the road because um it was measured not by me and I didn't look at the at the measuring tape to see what it

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was. And when I saw in the letter that that it was being represented as being 9 ft, I was like, "Well, that doesn't seem right." And the reason I said that was because there were piles of snow on either side of the room. and we measured from one pile of snow to the other side

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of the pile of snow, but didn't we didn't measure the actual width of the road, which was significantly different from 9 ft. So then when I read the what what Haley had written about why it couldn't be plowed with no mention of the fact that it would never be plowed

362
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because it wasn't your responsibility to plow it. I thought, well, there's something wrong there. Uh, the road seems like it is fine to plow. It was never mentioned that the bottom of the road you couldn't turn around in. The first time that I've ever heard that you

363
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couldn't turn around to the bottom of the road, having been someone that was at the assessment, was this morning. So, what I'm seeing is a decision that was made without an assessment in December

364
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that had, as far as I could see, no basis that was not communicated to the LWA, that was not communicated to the homeowner, but the homeowner had to come to Haley to find out why this had happened. And then what I see is a

365
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series of explanations justifying something. I don't see that it was really an assessment and I don't really see that it was a good assessment and I don't really see that there was any kind of conversation about whether or not this

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was a road that should be plowed at the time that the decision was made. And I suspect that there are reasons unrelated to any of the things that we've brought up today. I suspect that the reason for the stoppage of plowing has something to do

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with something that we have not discussed and I don't know if anybody at some point wants to discuss it but I think in all fairness it might not be a bad idea for it to be discussed. So my procedural question is,

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are you willing to give this a little bit more time to talk with the people that are concerned like these guys? Maybe to talk with me cuz I haven't, you know, I'm just telling you my perception now. Um, and to see what we could do

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about the fact that we've just taken one person for no apparent reason and excluded his the road in front of his house from being plowed when everybody else around the lake is not being excluded from being plowed.

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And now we're talking about taking away the funding from everybody to be plowed just because we have to back up this decision that seems to have been made unfairly and without any kind of justification at least initially. And

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this is this is the problem that I've had with process this whole time. I'm I may be wrong but this has been my perception of how things have come out. So I um one >> minute one minute. So I went back I took

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pictures that day and we did do a measurement at the top of the null where where the the determination is not to go and we did it from yes we did it from a snowbank but it was at the edge of that telephone pole where the plow couldn't go over anymore. It was the edge of the

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road to the other edge before it dipped off. And it was 10 ft at the dip that goes down um for water drainage that um Mr. Boron uh contracted privately had done work

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under a different contract. >> You have a photograph of I >> do. I have the measurement on the tape. I have a photograph of the tape on the >> photograph of the tape. >> Yes. >> At the time of the note. >> Photographs of the tape that dispute

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that. And also >> um >> also road the road is is 20 ft wide. It may not be currently 20 ft wide but Lake White are 20 ft wide which means something could be dumped.

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or I would never measure what wide road it is. >> And and you could look at the road now to see how wide it is >> because he is doing that in the process of his assessment to the policy that is written which is what we have to stand

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by. He's doing the assessment on those roads based on what the policy that select board had decided on prior to the three of us. Um >> Barry John, excuse me. Excuse I'm echoing Mary Joe. Everything she just

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said, I would say the same thing. And her and I measured the road ourselves. Just her and I did. And I forget the exact measurement, but it was quite more lengthy than what was on paper that we

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received. >> Yeah. I mean, when when we were measuring it that day, we commented that where the measuring tape started was a pile of snow. It wasn't the edge of the road. It was impossible to see the edge of the road

380
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>> because the snow was pile like >> So, I wanted just to So, if I have one regret, it was that one thing I said in the letter, which is municipal snow operations will terminate at the established turning point located at the first null/ telephone pole. I should

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have made sure that I included the policy number and really couch things in that because that is again the basis. Um you know I I think it's regrettable that if people did secondary measurements there was no invitation to town staff to come and join those measurements because

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we we find ourselves in a very similar situation. Well well I measured it this way and I measured it this way and and we just keep going in these circles and I I would agree and I have apologized there. There were procedural errors. I think and how this went about, but again, we have to look at the fact that

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we're here seven months later and how do we go forward because that that to me is the most important part is just moving forward. >> So, so good question and I think that's a way to good point to end the meeting on the Thank you and it reiterates what Jim says. The only thing the select

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01:45:57.760 --> 01:46:13.199
board can do um unless either of you find that that I'm incorrect, please correct me, is we can only go by what the policy currently says in front of us and and give um and wait during the

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assessment of Dave as as I will use his word burdens because I don't think it's an easy thing for him to have to do um and look at it as a whole not individually because there are so many people in town that do live on private roads that don't have this don't have

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this goodwill policy in in in their daily lives for the winter time. So I think for the select board um going forward we will stick with the current policy here. We have we have to do get the assessment from Dave and then you

387
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might think of something you know the burden of we we should assess this more on a granular level. Right. >> Well that's all part of the policy though what Dave is doing. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Now he is he does he has his assessment and then he feeds that back in

388
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>> the LWA and then it's their responsibility. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> So I'm not sure we need to be looking overlooking that process. >> Oh no no no. I'm I'm talking about I'm talking about so we set policy right J. We set policy. So sometimes we look at

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it. Is this still working? >> Yes. maybe based on what goes on. Then there's a couple of months as Dave does his thing and they work with the C LWA or whatever and we determine after all this effort that there's some changes that need to be here then yeah that's what we

390
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>> that's what that's what our job is. Yeah. Okay. >> So I guess that's our determination going forward. stick with the policy as we have it currently from 2008 and then revisit after the process is over there and see if it's still

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>> which will be before this coming winter. >> Yes, we can make sure it's we look at it. And one quick thing going back on what Eric said, >> um, with the policy, can we make sure that if this ever happens again, the

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resident, especially being an elder person, is notified, given resources, given enough time to do those, get a snow plow. It's not easy to get a snow plow in the middle of winter. >> Um, >> so yes. Yes. But part of that lies an

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LWA for us to tell them we're not doing this. And that's for them to also tell the the people around the lake. It's not always >> But if LWA is not in town, how are you going to make sure that communication happens and the elder person? >> That's a bigger question I think than

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what we can talk about >> which is why there's a date September 1st is there. >> So LW >> but this happened in the middle of winter from us. >> Actually September 1st is no longer there because you're looking at the policy from 2008 and that is of great concern to me.

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>> I'm sorry. We we have done it. We we so as I said earlier there's policy and there's practice. Our practice is we are aiming we we have already Dave has done the assessment. We are going to create the report that is going to come out in August and be ready well ahead of

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September. And you know and if any there's a takeaway it's that there are certain procedural elements that are not in here that should be in here. And I and I know I have said that >> previously you officially >> quick question. Would you be open to including the part of the road in

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01:49:25.840 --> 01:49:42.800
France's house to see what actually is with it and why it would be excluded of all of the roads that all of the private roads that you're plowing that you would not all plow that part because I think that would be reasonable. >> It's possible. So that those have if

398
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there's no justification even if one of those policies about why one road on on the list of roads from LWA is being excluded then I think there ought to be some sort of >> here's my answer to that and that touches on what Rick had said earlier.

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So we can certainly make recommendations whether or not those recommendations can be implemented in a timely manner by the property owner or the road owner LWA is another question. So, >> so what? Hold on one second. >> Make the recommendations for the

400
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>> I I think we would be >> a bronze house. >> I just want to answer. So, yes, we would be willing to do that, but what I would also recommend is that you there needs to be a second plan for that because we could, you know, I don't want to speak for LWA. I don't know them personally in

401
01:50:28.400 --> 01:50:44.320
any capacity, but I don't know if they're going to be able to do that or if they have I won't even get that. But, you know, whether or not their their end of the piece is done is not up to the select board. It's not up to me. It's not up to anybody. It would just be

402
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really I would be feeling much better if there if there was a a look at that part of the road while you're assessing everything else to determine why you would exclude it from plowing. Well, the one thing >> and then that information communicated

403
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along with the rest of the information to the LWA seems fair >> could do an addendum to the assessment. So, but the select board said that they wanted to follow the policy. So, we can do that. We can do an attachment an addendum that says in this particular circumstance, this is what would be

404
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required. And then it's it's the other side's ball. And like I said, I would just, you know, be out of an abundance of caution, heavily uh encourage people to come up with that alternative volunteer plan just in case you find yourself in a

405
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situation where certain metrics were not met. That would be my professional advice as both, you know, a former senior center director and current town administrator. You you want to have your your backup plan of how you address. We

406
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could talk about the possible backup plans later because there are some issues there. Yeah, that's >> I would like to point out that we have uh COA has a program that starts in 35 minutes and end

407
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um so you guys have to um >> you have to adjourn yourself and we still have the quorum. and adjourn. >> It's a adjourn. >> Ready to adjourn. >> The select board ready to adjurnn. Johnson and I

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thank you guys so long coming. No, I know.