Oh, wait. to the next I used to do that. >> Okay. Ready. >> The meeting will please come to order. Adequate notice of this meeting as required by the Open Public Meeting Act
has been that on January 7th, 2026, a copy of the notice specifying the day, time, and location was posted on a Bolton board outside of Burough Hall, given to the clerk administrator, mailed fact, or emailed to the Courier News, and placed on a burough website. If any member believes that this meeting is
being held in violation of the open public meeting act, please state your views at this time. These proceedings are judicial in nature. Only those items on the agenda will be commented on or questions uh of a answered for
proper judicial decorum must and will be maintained. Next item, roll call, please. >> Chairman Aradair, >> yes. Here. >> Edlet, >> here. Roberto Carpinets >> here. >> Morgan McGlaclin >> here. >> Rich O'Neal >> here. >> Brian Vadimsky
>> here. >> John Flores >> here. >> Eric Alvarez >> here. >> Stuart Daniels >> here. Good. >> We have a quorum. Are there any um conflicts tonight? No. Next item. to the flag of the United States of
America to repy and justice for all. >> What do we have >> next up? We have the minutes for May 20th. >> Someone like to move them? >> I'll move them. >> Second. Move and second. Any discussions? Roll call, please.
>> Chairman Ardair, >> yes. >> Ed Alllet, >> yes. >> Roberto Carponets, >> yes. >> Morgan McGlaughlin, >> yes. >> Rich O'Neal, >> yes. >> Brian Viddimky, >> yes. >> John Flores, >> yes, >> Miss Carrie. Resolutions.
>> First resolution we have is uh 2025 022Z Somerville Automotive Realy LLC. Uh, it's on 1044 Route 22, block 92, lot 26. >> Someone like to move. >> I'll move it. >> Second.
>> Move. Second. Any discussion? >> Roll call, please. >> Not everyone was eligible for this one. >> Chairman Ardere, >> yes. >> Morgan Mclaclin, >> yes. >> Rich O'Neal, >> yes. >> John Flores, >> yes. >> Eric Alvarez, >> yes.
Okay. The other resolution will be carried till next next meeting. >> Okay. Talk about U real quickly, Mr. Chair, M chairman. Um the report was submitted. I don't know
if the board had t a chance to look at it for the for the interest of brevity. Just it's basically similar to what's been done in the past. You have the numbers going back 20 years and you'll see the scatteredness in the planning the map showing what the board's actions
were and we can certainly uh follow up when the board has more time at the next meeting if there's questions if if the board wants to drill down on it at the next I'm suggesting next meeting. >> Sounds good to me. >> Does that work for the board? I mean you guys just got it and uh
>> what do we have on the agenda for next meeting? >> I'm glad you brought that up. Hamilton Street. >> I do believe we do not. I think PSNG asked to be continued and I think we have 71 North Dy. That's the garage. >> Uh they submitted everything. I just sent a voicemail to uh to Ryan and
Bakery to confirm that, but I do believe that's on for the next meeting. >> Okay. >> So, we we'll have some time. That's the garage that got carried, >> right? >> Uh that's was a few feet from the property line. So, uh, so we have time if you want to go
through the annual, anybody has questions on the annual report, but you'll see the percentages. It's literally not almost identical to what's been going on for 20 years. It's there's no one zone, but we can go into the next meeting. >> Okay. So, no trends like you have.
>> Yeah, we if the board has questions, I can certainly give you the maps of the last 20 years. You can see that I don't see a trend uh, Mr. Chairman, but uh, we can certainly drive into that. when the board has more opportunity uh to review it. Plus, we have a I'm sure the
interested parties here aren't really interested in the annual report, so we can address that later. >> This board has a record. >> This board does have a good record. In fact, in 70 years, this board has only
lost one appeal. That's an amazing record. never lost. >> Yeah, ma'am. >> Okay. So, what do we have? >> Uh, next item we have is a hearing 2025
012Z, Nan Realy Holdings LLC, 20 and 30 West End Avenue, block 131, lot 19 and 20. >> Evening. >> Good evening, Mr. Tuvel. All right. Good evening, Mr. Chairman,
members of the board. Jason Tubell, um attorney for the applicant. Um as the board recalls, we we've had one public hearing on this application. Um thus far at that meeting, um we presented testimony from our architect as well as
uh testimony from our um civil engineer. There was a lot of comments both from the board and the public um at that meeting. And what we decided to do once we concluded with our architectural testimony was to stop. It was getting late in the evening and we decided that
we would go back to the drawing board, make some plan revisions and also provide some additional information to the board in connection with the application to address concerns that were raised and comments from both the board, the public and the professionals. So what we did is we resubmitted plans
um where we made modifications both to the site plan on the civil drawings which we'll go through um to the aesthetics and to the height of the building lowering the height to become a uh compliant um height at 35 ft and also just enhanced the architectural aspects
of the project that we thought were actually very good to begin with but I think we've made them even better based on comments that we received. Further, we also provided additional um traffic and parking data to the board through the reports that we submitted. Um and those were counts based on um
observations made at similar facilities um and through obviously through industry publication data. So in terms of the batting order or how we intend on proceeding this evening, this is this is what I intended to do. So I was going to
bring our civil engineer back, Mr. chairman to go through the site plan changes that we discussed. So that'll relate to storm water, landscaping, things of that nature that are more civil oriented. Then I'll bring up our traffic engineer next. Our traffic
engineer is also our professional planner in this case. However, he's just going to be te testifying on traffic first. We'll bring him back at the end for for planning. Um that testimony will be focused on obviously access to and
from the site um site distance, but more importantly um trip generation because that was something that was raised at the last meeting in terms of vehicular access to and from how many vehicles do we perceive coming on a you know peak hour basis. and we we're going to show
some comparisons to some of the other uses that are permitted in the zone in which the property is located and what could be built here. In addition, like I said earlier, we'll also provide data as it relates to parking. Then third is we have a self storage
expert or consultant. If you recall at the last meeting, I indicated that we would have somebody who would talk about operations. So this person who has over 30 years of experience in the self- storage industry both um operations management um development she will go
through an analysis of not only the operations and how these facilities function but also why there's a demand or a need for this in this area. Um, and there's objective data based on industry standards that she'll uh provide to the board and and speak to during the course
of her testimony that'll explain uh why the applicant is proposing to build the building here um the demand in the area and how these facilities are operate. So, I think that'll be very helpful based on a lot of the comments that were made at the last meeting. And then um fourth, I'll have our architect Paul
Schwarz um go through, like I said earlier, some of the aesthetic changes that we made to the building based on comments that we received at the last meeting. Uh if we get to planning, we'll see. My guess is uh if you stop at 10:00 10:30, um we won't get that far, but
we'll see how that goes. So um Mr. Chairman, would I did Oh, I did renotice as required as you had requested of me. So that was done. Um, and I know Cliff can obviously speak to that. Um, but if there's nothing further, I' i'd be happy to call my first witness, Mr. Chairman, with your permission.
>> I did I did review the notice and I believe is legally sufficient as the form and content. Um, just want to know if people want them. There are seats up in the front. Uh, if you're having trouble seeing from the back or hearing from the back. Just thought I'd mention that. Go ahead.
>> All right. No, no problem. Thank you. So, Mr. Chairman, with your permission, can I call our first witness? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, I'd like to call Paul Mutch from Stonefield Engineering and Design. He's our civil engineer. His colleague testified at the last meeting, so we we'll have to qualify and swear him in
for the record just because he did not testify at the last meeting. >> The truth, so hope you got it. >> I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last name for the record. >> Paul Mut M as in Mary UT from Stonefield Engineering. Thank you very much, Mr. Tu.
>> Okay. All right. Paul, just because you didn't testify at the last meeting, can you give the board the benefit of your educational background, licenses held, and experience testifying as an expert in the field of civil engineering at similar land use boards in New Jersey? >> Yeah, certainly. And as I stated a few
weeks ago in front of this board, >> oh, you just got to press rookie mistake. >> Um, absolutely. And as I stated before this board just a couple of weeks ago, um, I am a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey. I graduated from Rowan University with a bachelor's degree in civil engineering
and I've been accepted by more than 100 land use boards in the state of New Jersey including >> to those qualifications. >> Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. All right. So, Paul, what I'd like you to do um you're familiar with the comments uh that the board made at the last meeting as well as some members of the public.
>> Yes. Yes, absolutely. >> All right. All right. So, what I'd like you to do is let's walk the board through the changes that we made uh based on the initial plan and what was subsequently um submitted. Um and then if you could also speak to while you're testifying um the comments received from
Mr. Cole more recently and whether we can adhere to those comments just as a preview. We stipulate that we can comply or we'll work with Mr. Cole on on all of his comments, but uh Mr. Much will go through those. Do you remember what um I was looking through my notes. We're at
A3. Okay. So, we're at A3. >> A3. >> Excellent. Yeah. So, this is um I am giving the Olivia the night off. You had seen Olivia on this application previously. She uh closed on a home yesterday, so she's busy unpacking right now. Um and I know you've heard a lot of
testimony on this already from the civil. So, I'm going to stick to kind of the highlights of your board professionals letter as well as just some of the changes and tweaks and some of more of the specifics in the engineering design um that we have. So, with that, I'll get right into it. Um the first exhibit I'll mark, which I
believe is A4. It is a site plan rendering exhibit. >> Oh, up to three, not included. Okay. A3. It's a site plan rendering exhibit. It's stated June 1st, 2026 and prepared by my office. This is simply a colorized
version of the site plan that was submitted as part of this. The technical contents are the same. We've just taken the liberty of adding in color as well as the landscape and give the board at least a better sense in the 2D realm what this is going to look like. And you'll see some excellent 3D renderings
as we move through the totality of the application. So, we'll begin with the building um which has definitely been the the biggest subject um of discussion so far. It's a 75,655 gross square ft um self- storage
facility. The footprint itself is 18,850 square ft. That's three stories above grade. And then there is a basement on this facility of 19,15 square ft. The engineer letter did mention an enlargement of the building. That was not the overall intention of
what we went back to the drawing board for. But what we heard from both the board, the professionals, and the public is we wanted be to be more specific and more final on our design. So we have a more developed architectural footprint that we've based our site plan on. So the architectural treatments, the sizing
and and um location of the basement has all been incorporated. That has changed the overall square footage, but it was really more of an effort of us to match the architecturals rather than an enlargement of the footprint. The site plan's just been physically updated to be exactly the same as the architecturals, which is certainly a
request that we heard at the previous meeting. So, I just wanted to get that out there. We didn't enlarge the building or try to make it bigger. We just made it consistent um to what you saw. So, on this site plan, um the parking in the circulation remains the same as was discussed previously. We
have the full movement driveway off the main road in the same location, all permissible within the DOT access code. We've added an access control gate to the plan um just to show that there is a separation of the use on site. It's it's located on the first island as you enter
the building um and or as you enter the site. And what that is intended to show is that the first five parking spaces that are near the office are for people making quick trips going into the office and accessing the building or that are there to either purchase a box or use the office to sign up for a new unit.
Pretty low parking generation for that. It's just the office piece. And then if you're already an existing customer, you'll have access through the gate into the rear, which offers you a few more options for loading and operations. In the rear, there's three additional parking spaces back there. There's also
a large loading area with large opening doors that allow people to either use box trucks, passenger vehicles, of things of the like to back in, pull parallel, whatever they see fit to get their items into and out of the building. >> Well, that I know.
I don't know if this is >> Jason. Is your m microphone working? >> Yeah. Hold on. >> I'm just There we go. Sorry. >> I just just wanted to be clear on the Sorry, it's not for some reason. This is >> I think it's
okay. So, I just want to make sure the gate is going to be a security gate that only the gate is only going to be a security gate that the customers have access to and the the self- storage expert can go through that, but through a keypad or
through a fob or something like that, right? >> Yeah, that's correct. And and in some cases on these facilities, and you'll hear more from the expert on this, but in some cases, these facilities are fully fenced in. We haven't provided that here. that's really more meant for those units that you see where you have
the rollup doors on the exterior where people are work or really operating outside of the building because everything's contained within the building. It's less of a need for a facility like this. Um but again, the applicant is open to suggestions and anything else as we move through the application and we're certainly open to
hearing that. Um, just to in some discussions with your engineer as well as just responding to his review letter, there was a request to expand the overall drive aisle width to accommodate more truck loading. Um, what we have and
I can show it to you or we'll submit it to your engineer is that we have run the SU30 box truck on this and it and it it is able to do essentially a K turn and I'll I'll just do it briefly on the plan. pull forward back into the loading area and then pull out of the site
afterwards. And that that truck is the largest U-Haul vehicle that you would see on the site. There's really not a scenario, especially on a site like this where you would see the larger SU40, um, which is not even offered by U-Haul or a tractor trailer. There certainly wouldn't be that on site. So, what we've
designed this site for is the SU30, the largest U-Haul box truck you can get. That's also a very infrequent use for this. you get very infrequent, you know, full apartment, full house movements going on. And you'll hear more statistics specifically from our expert
this evening. Um, but we made the decision to keep the drive the same length because it accommodates our largest anticipated trucks, which is that SU30 as well as the trash truck. And we avoided having to expand pavement and then violating the coverage limits
on this site, which is 50% which is what we're proposing. And that's an important note overall in the plan as well. From a physical site planning perspective, we comply with the bulk regulations. You'll hear more about floor area ratio as well as the height 2 and a half versus three stories from our architect and our
planner. Um, but from a physical site planning, we meet the impervious coverage requirement of 50%. So 50% of this site undeveloped and remains remains that way in the proposed condition. Um, and in addition to that, we have a rear yard setback, which is
really where the sensitivity of this plan we wanted to focus on. Keep the massing towards the street, avoid the, you know, the properties to the rear. We've more than tripled the rear yard setback, and we're compliant with all the other setbacks. So, you know, that was really the intention of the plan. I just wanted to highlight that as we uh
as we moved through. The trash is also, as I stated, is the same sort of Kturn movement. and it's located next to the building kind of tucked away in some landscaping. Trash truck pulls in it K turns out in the loading zone without any major issues. We can accommodate that truck. Again, you'll hear more from
our expert. It's once a week. It's not publicly used. People in the in the self- storage facility are not permitted to use that trash enclosure. It's just for employees and leftover. You want to avoid the scenario where you have people taking their boxes out and throwing it and overloading that dumpster. It just
doesn't occur at these facilities. Um u once a week is like I said is when they get picked up. It's a very low you know from a loading and a trash perspective it's it's very infrequent use of those um which is the added benefit of a self- storage facility. In addition to that we
added a monument sign at the front of the site. Um you'll hear more about that as we move through the application. But I think it's important that we identify the site. We're not looking for a pylon or anything large. Just something that identifies the eventual user of this self storage. and you'll hear more from our architect on some of the wall
signage that's proposed as well. Um, moving into landscaping, which is obviously the feature of this rendering. Um, what the intention was is we upgraded the plantings along the streets, hearing the comments from the board, the public, as well as the comments in your board engineers review
letter. And we've maintained the BMS and the buffers in the rear to make sure we're establishing kind of that that push and pull of of the site. So, we've added shrubs to screen some of the utilities. We've added street trees. And we've just looked to give the frontage
that yearround visual and color pop that will enhance the aesthetics of the architecture, which you'll see more 3D renderings and looks of that as you go through. But we've enhanced that landscaping along the front to get a really nice green band, really nice aesthetics along the front. And then
again, what the intention of this application is, not only are we exceeding the setbacks to the sides and the rear, we're also looking to establish dense double planted hedges that are on BMS. So, they're elevating those trees. Those trees will grow one to two feet a year and eventually turn
into a real dense and permanent buffer. Interior to that, we have shade trees and other things of the like. So if you're looking into the site from the roadway or traveling on the site as a customer, the aesthetics and the feel of the site is green and open rather than some other developments that you might
see in the area that are a little bit more pavement heavy. This is definitely architectural and landscaping heavy from this proposal which is highlighted by the fact that we meet the 50% um imperous coverage requirement which means 50% of the site is landscaped and maintained
>> and and per Mr. Cole's letter, we also eliminated any landscaping waivers. Correct. We complied with the ordinance as it relates to landscaping. >> Yes, I I believe that's correct and we can go through that. Yes. So, in total, 76 trees, 83 shrubs, and 73 mixes of grasses and ground covers are proposed
as part of this application um as we look to develop it. And we've also agreed to, and you'll hear that in your engineers letter, there's some decorative sidewalk. We're in the blue stone area. We're we're going to agree to all of that and make sure that the aesthetics along the frontage match our landscaping as well as the the
architecture that you'll see more of as we move through. Um, one of the most significant changes that we made from a civil site planning standpoint on this is the storm water management system. Um we were in discussions with your engineer responding to some of the comments in his letter and what we've
decided to do is rather than do a green roof on the site which has been removed um there is a more desirable option to control both volume clean runoff um and just general runoff leaving the site and that is a a green infrastructure above
ground infiltration basin which is now proposed behind the building um in front of our BMS. It doesn't impact any of the buffer that we have previously, but it gives us another opportunity to meet the goals and objectives of not only your ordinance, which is more strict than the
D, but meet the D and and the new D rules got delayed by a year, but this plan is in um is in is is consistent with what those rules look like. So, we have an above ground basin in the rear. We also have a pvious pavement system
which is highly supported by the D in the pavement area to the east of the building. All of this equates to a substantial improvement on storm water management in general. This the existing site is essentially halfdeveloped. All of that pavement is running unfiltered
and uncleaned into um into the various conveyance systems in the area. We are capturing all of the runoff. The vast majority of the runoff is associated with roof which is considered clean. Um, we're treating every piece of imperous coverage on this site to 80% TSS, which
is a D requirement, and we're conveying that underground. So now that uncontrolled runoff that's kind of flowing to the adjacent properties, we now contain that, treat it, hold it back, reduce the overall volume, and then send it to the DOT roadway underground. So the the impact of the
storm water on this site, you get less um you don't have the you don't have the sheet flow over creating icing issues. um and you get clean runoff coming off the site. So, just the benefit overall, it is a modern state-of-the-art NJD endorsed storm water management system.
There's still some comments left in your board engineers review letter, but we can comply with them all um you know, as we move through this application. >> And Paul, I think it goes without saying, but even though I'm assuming that benefits the property significantly as you described, but can you just speak to does that also benefit the
surrounding properties, the roadway? Can you just speak to that briefly? >> Yes, certainly. Right now we have kind of a field of pavement as well as that building that is kind of flowing everywhere. And what we're looking to do is capture it and put it underground so you don't get untreated motor vehicle surface going onto roadways into
people's yards into the sidewalk. Taking it underground after it's been treated, held back, and reduced. Um it just it it benefits all of the properties around it as well as it'll take a little bit of the load off the DOT conveyance system as well um that runs east and west on this site. Okay.
um lighting. Another another excellent upgrade that I think was recommended by everyone is that we're going to do rather than your traditional commercial lights, we're going to do um decorative kind of posttop acorn type loads the lights. The intention is to match what we see in the downtown. There's kind of
a mixture where you have the acorn tops as well as there's some real nice ones downtown that have kind of the acorn on the arm. Um we're going with the post top here because this is not and you'll hear more about this. This is not like a commercial use where you need a lot of traffic at night. This is all of this lighting and you'll see the renderings
is intended to complement the architecture and bring a softness to the site. You know, this is you'll hear more of this, but you know, a self- storage facility is is very um lazy and slow and and low, you know, traffic and noise producing. And if you add kind of that
soft lighting as well, it kind of transitions away from a commercial development in my civil engineering perspective. But there'll be a lot of testimony on that um as we move through. Um and then finally, the utilities are all publicly available for this in the frontage. We've screened some of the
utilities per your board engineers recommendations. Um but again, this is a use that is very, very low demand on the public infrastructure. This is a couple of bathrooms and a couple of employees being used very infrequently. There's a couple of comments and we owe your
engineers some data that shows just how low it is, but we're talking on the on the scale of one to 300 gallons per day of being used and produced in sanitary and water here, which falls far below um any kind of retail or commercial use you would typically see. It's just a very
very low burden on the overall public system. Um and with that, that's everything that I had direct if there's anything you'd like me to cover. >> Yeah, just briefly um I think we hit everything. Just verify, I know the architect will do this too. There's a reduction in the height of the building. We need a variance for the stories.
You're allowed um two and a half and we have three. But from an overall building height perspective, can you just speak to how now we comply with the ordinance? >> Yeah, certainly. So, the height of the building complies with the ordinance at this time and you'll see renderings of that. We've reduced the height to comply there. There's a two and a half versus
threetory um you know proposal to required here that you hear testimony about. Um but the physical height of the building complies. >> Okay. And that height is 35 feet. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Okay. And then in terms of the sidewalk and the and the site itself, all ADA
compliant? >> Yes, absolutely. They'll be ADA compliant spaces, paths, and sidewalk along all frontages. Yes. >> Okay. And then around the perimeter of the site, we comply with all setbacks. And can you just speak to just again the buffering screening and if there's any
fencing proposed around the perimeter? Yeah, we don't have any fencing proposed currently because the buffers and that dense and those dense plantings are the intention for that. But if it is the preference of either the public or the board, we can also do, you know, more substantial opaque fencing around certain property lines, you know, we're
we're definitely open to that. We feel the landscaping design as well as kind of pulling the building away accomplishes that in conjunction with a very you know low generating use. But um you know the buffers are intended to to be kind of a permanent thing for the adjacent properties.
>> Okay. So just to sum up and we'll get and the planner will speak to this too but the application complies with all of the setback requirements. >> Yes, that's correct. >> And in fact as you mentioned for the rear yard is more than triple what's required. Correct. >> Yeah. Yeah correct. Okay. And just just
to be clear on numbers, the ordinance requires a rear yard setback of 25 ft. >> Yes. >> And we're proposing 76.6. >> Yes, that's correct. >> Okay. And then in terms of the front and sides, those also comply as well. >> Yes, they do. Yeah, we're fully within
this the the setbacks. >> Okay. So, you could technically have a 35 foot high building per the ordinance, 25 ft from the rear yard where which is the closest to the residential. and we're at 35 ft and triple that from a setback perspective. >> Yes, that that would be correct.
>> Okay. And then just going back to the fact that we comply with the with the lock coverage requirement, 50% required and 50% is proposed. >> Correct. >> So despite the increase in F over what's permitted, the application still complies with coverage height and
setbacks. >> That's correct. Yes. >> Okay. Um All right. And just I I know and you might have said this so I I know sometimes we're repetitive. We can comply with all the comments if not already done so in Mr. Cole's latest review letter dated May 30th, 2026.
>> Yes. And we discussed that letter with your board professional today. Um and we intend to comply and work with him on all comments. >> Okay. All right, Mr. Chairman. That's all I have for Mr. Mut in terms of uh his direct. >> Anybody have any questions of Mr. Mut's uh testimony?
Yeah, I have a couple. >> You had said that the largest truck was going to be a U-Haul, a U a 30. >> Yeah. So, the the U-Haul the largest U-Haul truck that you can purchase, I forget what they call it, but it's it's essentially a 29 foot truck, which is
the the model that we ran was an SU30, which matches that. >> So, how do you make sure that a a larger truck doesn't try to go there? >> Well, it's an interesting point. Um, we did also run the SU40, which we don't anticipate here, and it can't make as clean a K turn, but it can certainly
operate on the site. It takes a couple more maneuvers to get out. Um, but, you know, even the largest vehicle that we would foresee here can find its way off of this site. I think we're open to, you know, a tractor trailer restriction because that sort of truck wouldn't be
able to maneuver the site, but we also don't have an intention of bringing those types of vehicles on the site. >> Okay. And then you you had said something about the site being ADA compliant. Um if someone is in a wheelchair, let's say they across the street they're at the senior center and
they have a small storage facility. Uh they're renting a small unit. I don't see a a pedestrian path from the sidewalk to the building. Is there one or not one? >> No, it's an excellent point. There needs to be one and there will be one added and we intend to provide that. Okay.
Anyone else have any questions? Anyone from the board? >> So, you will comply with all ADA guidelines? >> Yes, we will be fully federally ADA compliant. Yes. >> All right, that's fine. Thank you. >> Question
about recycling. You said that you won't have the ability for your customers to come and take their cardboard and stuff and just put it somewhere. Do you think about putting in a uh recycling dumpster? I will I'll let our our operational expert kind of speak to how
they handle that. Um but from a civil engineering's perspective, we just have the dumpster. >> Yeah. I mean any we we could probably fit it, but I think let's have Miss Zels speak to that and then if we feel we need to add it, we can always have that discussion. That's fine. >> Certainly. >> Anyone else? Anyone from the audience
have any questions on the testimony just given? Questions? >> One question. come on up and speak into the mic. Your name and address. >> Good job. >> Hi, David Lang 18 came in place in
Somerville for the above ground water retention. Can you speak to the 80% TSS and how you deal with suspended solids with regards to inspection and I guess there has to be mitigation at some point? >> Yeah. So this is actually a a very
unique scenario where the rear basin will only accept runoff from the roof of the building. So there will not be any pavement and there there'll be landscaping areas that obviously drain in there. But from a a suspended solid standpoint, we're getting clean runoff
going into that basin and then we'll also be further filtered um as it moves through the bottom of the basin and gets and gets out to the right of way. So we're we're not even trying to treat pavement. We are we are simply treating clean runoff with an infiltration basin.
>> So what's the ex what's the expected maintenance or inspection for that above ground? >> Yeah. So the D has very strict maintenance and reporting requirements as part of the new storm water rules that were passed a couple years ago. The applicant will be responsible to provide logs as well as inspection reports
related to the basin that will be part of an operation and maintenance manual that is tied to the deed. So very strict. It'll be the responsibility of of your board's professional to to ensure that that's those are coming in but it is you know strict compliance on
uh maintenance of that basin. >> Yeah. And by complying with the new rules, we have to file that deed notice showing that the O andM manual is being filed and that we meet all the reporting requirements. Correct. >> Yes. And it's fully enforceable. >> And that's responsibility falls to the tenant or to the
>> Well, the the um the Yes. So the the um owner tenant, I'm not sure how the applicant will set it up, but whoever is operating the site, there will be a contract with a company that is maintaining the storm water facilities. And they are like they are required by
deed to to not only maintain those facilities but also provide reports of the maintenance and inspections that have been um conducted based on that manual that we'll prepare for your board professional. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else?
>> If you're going to come up, just come on up and we don't waste the time. >> Hi, my name is Bob Bar, 214 North Bridge Street. I have uh three questions. Number one, what if more than one truck shows up at a time or you have a couple cars in there already unloading? What
are you going to do? What's going to happen to the traffic jam on the parking site? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, you'll hear a lot tonight from our traffic engineer as well as our operations on the physical trips here. But if we get multiple trucks or multiple cars or a lot of vehicles on the site at any one point, that's first
of all an unforeseen circumstance which you hear professional testimony on. And there's also sufficient room that they'll be able to maneuver around each other. We don't anticipate the majority of the parking spaces will be used up at any one time which provides some room. And we also have and I'll try to zoom in
here if I can. There we go. We also have elongated areas. We have almost 50 feet of drive in the loading zone and 25 ft for two-way movement on the site. So there's a lot of maneuverability for those people if they did happen to come at the same time to be able to maneuver
safely and efficiently. And you'll hear more from our traffic engineer on that. >> Thank you. Uh my next one is the height of the vegetation between the building and the street and what's going to be seen from the town hall. >> Yeah. So we have what I'll call traditional like street trees and shade
trees along the frontage. So those will mimic what you see in the downtown as far as those species. and your your board professional has provided some feedback on some of the species on site and then there'll be kind of ground plantings along the site. So it should it should in when it's all built it
should be consistent street trees that are with the downtown. >> So is it correct that most of those trees are 20 to 30 feet high >> and your building is going to be 35 ft. You're going to see the top of the building from across the street >> if if we're talking along the frontage. Those trees will be planted a little bit
shorter. And you know, I'm not sure they'll ever get to 30 to 35 ft high because they are street trees, but certainly the intention of the buffer along the rear and sides, the east side and the rear is meant to be dense evergreen plantings. Again, I'm not sure if we're going to get to 35 ft, but
we're certainly going to have a dense buffer um that that that rises, you know, 20 20 plus feet. >> Okay. Okay. So my last question re uh comes to the town hall which is on a national and state register and people go in and out of the front door which is directly across the street from your
entrance. What are they going to see from that that when they come out to their cars? Are they going to see a historic looking building or are they going to see something that fits in with the neighborhood? I think it's an excellent question and our architect has provided and will present um several 3D
renderings from that view and others that will show you exactly what the building looks like and what that view at least close to what that view will look like. >> Yeah. And I think too, I mean, it's a really good question because and I think that's why the developer hired somebody with substantial knowledge of Somerville
to design the building so that it would be complimentary to your point of the other buildings which many of which are beautiful and historic in the area. So, but I think our architect, Mr. Mr. Schwarz, is the best person to answer that question. >> I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.
>> Sure. Natalia Clayman, one is Summon Street. Um, I had the same question about multiple trucks or multiple vehicles at the same time, which you already answered, but just to follow up when the test for the when you said you did the test on SU30 and it can make a K turn
easily or it could just make the K turn. Is that test done with the professional driver or someone inexperienced just hiring a truck for a day and kind of moving a truck that they not used to? >> Yeah. Yeah. our traffic engineer will answer the specifics, but we do use an
industry accepted model for truck turning templates when we do that. It's it comes with a factor of safety, but again, our our traffic engineer will have more specifics on how that works, but it's certainly something that's industry accepted for, you know, turning movements of of all vehicles. We we run the fire truck, the trash truck, as well
as the SU30. >> So, basically, it's assumes that there will be someone who has some knowledge of driving a truck. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's I don't think the model is based on, you know, the perfect driver I would or or the most novice. It's somewhere in the middle to be build in some safety.
>> Got it. Thank you. >> Sure. >> Hey, Michael Weiss, 218 West Summit Street. Um, we heard about the runoff from the roof of the building, but did we go over the the uh water condensate from the air conditioning system that
will be running 24 by7 during the summer months? Um, yeah, I don't have a specific plan in front of me, so maybe we leave that to the architect, but um, you know, it's certainly something that we can cover and even incorporate into the underground storm water if that's if that's the preference. >> Do we know how many gallons per hour it
might generate during humid summer months? >> I don't have that answer. Potentially our architect, but we can certainly look to get that answer. >> Okay, thank you. >> Hi, my name is Elizabeth Eisinger. I live at 25 Mercer Street. I have a kind
of follow-up question. Um, it's sort of related to the traffic and the trucks, but it's also related to the new gating. >> What happens if somebody gets stuck with the gate? They don't have their fob. They have the wrong password. They have
they have issues like that and they block traffic. Um obviously coming I'm ass sure that it won't be locked returning to the street but getting in there. >> Um that may well will have you made provisions for that kind of thing. What
what uh especially for someone who isn't used to doing driving trucks? That's my biggest concern is people like me renting a truck once every 5 to 10 years. >> Yeah. No to I I recently drove one of those trucks. It was kind of fun. it. Um, what we've done here is we've placed
the security gate, you know, far enough into the site that you can have multiple vehicles stacked before it it impacts any of the roadway network, which was an important feature just, you know, in case someone is confused or needs to walk in the office. The office will also be manned for the most of the day. So,
you know, I think they can assist um in that realm as well to get that truck out. And then in a worst case scenario, and you'll hear more from other professionals, but this is a very low traffic producing use. So in a worst case scenario, if that person had to do a K turn into the parking field um on
the right, there's nobody there to help them. They can't they can't do it there. They would not be forced to back out onto the highway because there's there's the ability to do a K turn um utilizing those spaces. It's a similar distance to the loading zone as the parking. So in like the third fail safe, you know, I
think they can make a safe and efficient movement off the site without impacting the roads or backing onto it. >> Okay. And the one last thing I can't see on there I can't from where I'm sitting >> the back parking lot. You said there were three parking spaces back there. Is that where the K turn where's the
Kturning zone compared to where cars would? >> Yeah. So the K the K turning zone will occur. So, the largest vehicle that we have will pull straight into the site, pull up next to these parking spaces, back into the loading zone, be perpendicular to the building, and then
be able to move out um and pull out. You know, they can come at different angles, but that's where the K turn occurs. Um the three parking spaces are intended for people that maybe just a quick trip in their passenger vehicle. You know, you might get some more, you know, um pickup trucks and things in the overall loading area.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Of course. Heather McNall Lang 18 came in place. Um the water retention is that above ground or underground? >> We have two systems here. So the system in the rear is going to be above ground and the system in the parking will be
below ground. So it's kind of a combo. >> Okay. Can you show me where the above ground area is going to be on that that drawing? >> Yes. So in the rear of the building. Um, you can kind of see the light lines, but I'll just circle it with my cursor. Um, that is where the above ground basin
will be. Um, with emergency, it's this actually the emergency overflow goes to the parking area because we're just trying to pull all the, you know, the runoff from the rear. >> And will that be enclosed with a fence or something? >> Yes. Yes, it will have um some sort of, you know, three rail kind of wood fence,
something like that. Something more decorative than a chain link. >> Okay. And I guess my other question is you have lots of plantings which is lovely but um lots of plantings means lots of leaves. >> How is the system going to handle all
those leaves? >> Um so again this is part of the previous question that we received. You know the the applicant is required to maintain these basins. So um any leaves that fall in the basin there are monthly quarterly there will be different requirements to maintain the basin to keep it clean and
free of debris so it can function the way that it's supposed to. Again very strict in the D deed restricted so it it will it will need to be maintained. Also just knowing the applicant they have very very nice sites. It's not like some other um applicants that you might see let the the properties go in disrepair.
>> Okay. Thank you very much. >> Absolutely. Anyone else from the audience have any questions u of the testimony just given? >> Hey, I have a question for Paul. Paul, it's the pavement's porest. So, the porest pavement will be addressed the
storm water management on the P parking lot area and the bio retention basin we talked about is groundwater recharge too. So, the testing will be done on that for the recharge. >> Yes. Yes. As we discussed today, we'll do all we've we've assumed the most
conservative minimums at this point. Um, and if this board were to look favorably on the application, we'll do the testing and ensure that everything works correctly and complies with D. Absolutely. >> Regarding the trash enclosure, uh, we had discussions, Jason, on the need for this, who's going to be using it. Is
there still perceived need to have an enclosure as opposed to in the building? Let's let's have this the operator or the self- storage consult speak to it and then if the board is still has a you know wants to revisit that question we'll revisit it and you know we're
happy to again work with the board on that issue. We we think it's fine the way it is that's my that's basically what I what I'm saying but if you still feel after hearing her testimony that we need to address it we will. And when the gates down, Paul, the single unit touch the SU30 and the gates down, you can
still make the K turns to get out. So if the gates down or up, it doesn't affect the K turning of the vehicle leaving the site. >> Yeah, there's there's sufficient room. It takes a couple of more turns just because we have the sidewalk there, but you can get the truck around and out of the site. You don't have to back out.
>> Understood. >> Art, I've got a question. Might be for Mike. I'm not sure. the D regulations the maintenance of these systems there's a reporting requirement the owner has to report to someone is that to the burough or to the state
>> there is a very the last maintenance plan I looked at they got okay the should the board of grant approval the major development application once it's approved has to be recorded with deed on the deed >> correct >> that language and requirements are
specified by D and the last time I looked at one, it was like five inches thick. So, it covers who's doing it, the frequency, and the frequency is dictated by the DP of annual maintenance or it's not even annual, it could be every three months. So, there's a whole process that
goes into the deed recording to address the storm water maintenance of that system. >> Who would do the physical enforcement? the physical technically the the deed restriction or the deed notice says the applicant's responsible but ultimately it's the burrow
>> that's okay >> ultimately if the thing is if the stormwater maintenance system is not require not maintained ultimately the burrow gets dragged into it because uh Jason you can chime in on this but I think there's court law case law saying it came out of homeowners association
from the 80s that if the bur if the basins are not maintained >> or the homeowners goes bankrupt, ultimately the burough has to maintain those storm water management systems, >> right? Uh and also this is in particular to the self storage. If you built anything here,
right, any development would require this, but yeah, the rules now are so stringent. Um as Michael was saying, I've seen these documents recorded. They're like a thousand pages some of them. And you have all these requirements and then the applicant has to report to the burrow. And then the
burrow is incentivized for the applicant to report because then this the state audit can audit the burrow on its compliance with the new regulations. So the applicant really has no choice but to comply with the D requirements. >> Thank you.
>> I had one question because I'm seeing a lot of these in so many towns I represent. Yeah. and I've heard it come up uh with regard to the you know the non underground detention base and the above ground you would effectuate safety
measures in terms of you talked about decorative fences and things like this but we all know uh how to defend some towns where you know kids get kids get kids get under the fence or around the fence and uh you
know maybe get in trouble if they're playing at the detention basin. You have you'll have measures to uh control that, will you not? >> Yeah, certainly. And I it's I'm you know, because I do this for a living, like I take my kids to see the basin, so I teach them about it. But what we
typically do for these is we have a split rail fence that has nine non-climbable mesh on there to try and prevent that exact scenario for, you know, people wandering back there. And that's that's generally the industry accepted approach. We don't necessarily want to end up doing chain link fences
around there. They're just not aesthetically pleasing and I don't think they serve quite the purpose that they're going for. So, what I would propose here is a split rail fence that has some aesthetic value to it. Non-climbable mesh, which is the industry standard and and to prevent those sorts of issues.
If you happen to see, for example, youngsters playing in the, you know, you would uh I presume that the property owner would notify appropriate authorities with respect to that. >> Certainly. Yes. And you'll hear testimony on the security system. Um,
you know, if there's cameras, they will know if that's occurring and we'll report it. >> Very good. Now, I just wanted to ask them. >> Yeah. By design, Paul, I think the storm water management buyer detention has to drain completely dry within 72 hours. Yes, that's a requirement. >> So, it's essentially designed to be dry.
Yes, it'll impound water, but we're not talking about it's not a wet basin. So, it's not going to be a water feature. It's going to be a dry basin. >> Yeah. It's not a It's not a pond with a fountain that acts as a base. >> Very good. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I have a question. How tall is the
fence? The split rail fence. >> Um, typically they're four feet tall, plus or minus. Um, and with the non-climbable mesh, that's that's how high they go. >> And how deep is the basin? >> Uh, the basin is roughly 4 feet deep
from the absolute highest point to the bottom. And then the design storm, let's say we got something like a, you know, a hurricane and Ida type storm, you'd have about three feet of total water in there with a little bit of freeboard. Um, you know, in your largest hundred-year design storm. >> Okay. And then uh just talking about the
entrance uh if the fence is down in the front and there are cars uh parked in that those five spots, you're saying that a 30-foot truck can do a K turn there even with the cars in that spot. No, they would not be able to. But if
there are cars parked in that spot in those spots, the office is open and the employee can open the gate and facilitate those movements. Um, I think in the rare case that somebody's there after hours, maybe, but then you wouldn't have cars parked in front of the office because they'd be locked. >> Here's the problem. We have a parking
problem in Somerville. >> And those five spots, ungated, are going to be used by everybody that goes downtown >> and goes to a restaurant, goes to Car Night, or whatever. >> So, again, what are your hours of operation?
It's uh as of now we have it at 6:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. >> Okay. And but that's as people can get through. When is it going to be staffed? >> Right. So we had said and um 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. But I could have the
operator speak more to that, but yes. So there would be to to answer I think where you were asking there would be those four hours where you could technically not have a person staffed but somebody could visit the facility. Okay. Thank you. Sure.
>> Will the gate be lighted or have bells or whistles on it? >> I don't think we have a specific model for the fence, but I don't anticipate bells or whistles or anything like that. Very slowm moving lazy gate for the, you know, a similar use. >> Yeah, we can stipulate if the board
wants that it doesn't, you know, have lights on it or doesn't, you know, have a have a sound or something like that. That's fine. Anyone else have any questions of the testimony just given? >> No one. >> Okay.
>> All right. So, Mr. Chairman, if uh if it's okay with you, I'd like to call our next witness who's our traffic engineer, Matthew Seckler from Stonefield Engineering and Design. >> I'm just opening it for Tracy. It's open. She can just click,
but I'll leave this open for Matt. Uh, thank you very much. Uh, do you saw me sort of the testimony you're about to give in this matter will be the truth? So, I'll help you God. >> Yes, I do. >> Please state your name and spell your last name for the record. >> My name is Matthew Seckler. That's S E C K L E R with Stonefield Engineering
Design. Address is 92 Park Avenue in Rutherford, New Jersey. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Tubel. >> Thank you, Cliff. Um, Matt, if you can give the board the benefit of your qualifications as a traffic appear before us before. >> Yes. >> Yes, he's qualified. >> Great. Thank you. All right. So, you're
going to be testifying as of now just in your traffic engineering capacity, correct? >> That is correct. >> All right. So, I'll let you start where you want to start, but what I'd like to do is cover trip generation, parking, some of the circulation aspects that the
board has uh has brought up and also compare the application to other uses that could be constructed at the property. Absolutely. And again, what I'm going to be referencing are two publications or two uh reports that I have uh submitted to the board. One is titled traffic and parking assessment
report. It was last revised March 3rd, 2026. And then we also provided a technical memorandum which the subject was trip generation and parking memorandum. That was May 20th, 2026. And I'll go through uh the methodology uh and uh what we performed in those
memorandums and reports and also explain what the conclusions were based on our analysis. So again, you've heard the uh uh from the site engineer in terms of the layout of the site. The site, as was mentioned, is located on West End Avenue, uh, just east of the Mountain Avenue Signalized
intersection or that north side. We're proposing a single driveway that would be a full movement driveway onto West End Avenue. As uh, council just mentioned uh, and I think there was obviously some discussions uh, uh, earlier about trip generation. I want to explain how we
project traffic, how we expect, how we come up with our calculations for how much traffic this site may generate in the future. I will also explain uh what other jurisdictions utilize those numbers for because this is on a DOT roadway. We will need a DOT permit as well. Uh and then I'll explain um some
sample sites that we have collected at nearby self- storage buildings and how they compare to the analysis we pro we provided. And then you're going to get uh uh treat you'll have a second witness after me who specialized in self- storage who provide even more data regarding you know the frequency people
visit their units the times they visit their units uh for you know uh based on her experience in the field of self- storage sites. So first off in terms of coming up with trip generation projections what we utilize is what's called the institute of transportation
engineers trip generation manual. It is a book uh well it used to be books now it's uh digital uh but it's basically full of data from traffic engineers like myself where we have counted the number of cars that go in and out of sites. We take that data we send it off to the Institute of Transportation Engineers.
They compile it, they validate and they publish it in a publication for engineers like myself to utilize when we want to project what future sites may generate in terms of traffic. This publication is utilized by the county. It's utilized by the state DOT. It is basically the basis for all the analysis
for any development within the state of New Jersey on any DOT road, county road, and most likely any local road uh in the state of New Jersey. This national publication again uh uh is a composite of data collected from engineers. And for this specific
land use type, there is a land use type specific to self- storage buildings. Um, so typically what I do, I go in that book, I plug in the amount of square feet the building is projected to be at, which is a little more than 75,000 square feet, and it will project how much traffic this site would generate on
an hourly basis during the peak hours, morning and evening rush hour time periods, Saturday rush hour periods, which is typically in the middle of the day. And it could also tell me weekday or like daily numbers, how much traffic would come in and out. Now, when I give you the traffic numbers, I'm going to be
very specific with the words that I use. So, I will often say the word trips. And a trip is a trip in and then you could have another trip coming out. So, a single customer coming in or single customer to the site will actually create two trips. So, one customer would
come in and out. It's two trips, one customer. So, I'm going to try to be clear when I'm talking about trips versus customers. Um, so the it when I plug in the the uh 75,000 square foot um uh self- storage building, what it
projects is 16 trips in the morning peak hour. So that'd be eight customers. Uh 16 trips in the evening peak hour. Again, eight customers and 25 trips on a Saturday. And again, that's about 12 to 13 customers. Sometimes someone coming in doesn't leave the same hour, so you
end up with an odd number. uh or you could one of the trips could have been the employee coming in and he doesn't leave or he or she doesn't leave that same hour but again terms of traffic generated during the busiest hours the it projects 16 in the morning 16 in the
evening 25 in the Saturday and again this is also the same data that we utilized as part of our DOT application in order to get this driveway approved from the department of transportation now as I mentioned the uh it is a compilation of data it also has uh
weekday trips or or daily trips, it would project a site like this to generate 98 trips in a day, which is about 49 customers uh coming in or out. Now, I want to be clear that the and you'll hear from the self- storage expert later who knows all about the
history of self- storage buildings, the different generations of them. You know, you've seen the older ones which kind of all have may have all drive up style. They might not be climate controlled. Then you kind of have these later generations like this one which is all interior units climate controlled
oftentimes with an elevator inside. And I think that you know you'll hear from the expert in self- storage buildings that the type of customers and the frequency they visit may have changed over time. And I see that in the IT data because the IT data that we have goes from 1993 all the way to today. So the
data you know can be at this point 93 is uh 30 years old at this point. Um when I look at the data set that in the it is from 2000 to today so the last 25 or 26 years that 98 trips in a day actually
drops to 56 trips in a day. So again I'm not going to impine you know the the actual business model that has kind of evolved because the expert can probably explain that better to you. But what I'm seeing is that from a traffic perspective, the studies that are more
recent, the last 25 years or 26 years from the year 2000 on has seen a 40% drop in the amount of traffic that is generated from these type of buildings. And these are already some of the lowest generating type of buildings that you could have in terms of a per square foot
basis. So again while the DOT and the IT I'm going to use those 1993 till today numbers what what we are seeing is a trend that these are becoming less and less frequently visited. Now to kind of bookend that we had recently done counts
at two self- storage buildings in the nearby area and this is in our trip uh trip generation and parking memorandum uh public uh uh report and they were at two locations. one was uh at 601 Route 28 in Bridgewater. So again, it's within
2 miles of the site down Route 28. Um it that uh we did counts at that site and we also did sites on uh a site at 141 US Route 206 in Hillsboro. It's just south of um I think the Brooks Boulevard intersection that would kind of take you toward Manville. >> Yes.
>> So we did counts at those two sites. >> And this was submitted to the board. This is in your memo dated May 20th, 2026. >> Correct. And and again, I'm not saying these are, you know, exact apples to apples comparisons. So, I want to be clear in what those st the tile the styles of those sites. The Bridgewater
site is very similar to our size. It's 84,000 square feet. Again, we are um 75,000 square feet. So, similar size. I would note that site has a number of uh ground flooror accessible units. And again, you'll see in the trip generation, and you'll hear from the expert later on, the type of users that
use those ground floor units are typically maybe contractors, people coming, like workers coming every morning to grab their, you know, uh, paint supplies if they're a painter or some plumbing equipment if they're a plumber. A lot of times those easy accessible groundf flooror units get a
little more frequently visited, especially in the morning. But that was the Bridgewater site. The Hillsboro site is 141,000 square feet. So almost double the size of our site. So when I give you the numbers, I just want everyone to be aware that site also has rollup units.
And again, it's about twice the size. >> But both are larger than what we're proposing. >> Both is larger. Bridgewater is in the ballpark, but has rollup doors. Hillsboro almost twice the size. We found at those sites the morning trip
generation for Bridgewater was 13 trips, seven in the evening and nine on the Saturday. All those numbers are less than what the it or what we were projecting for this site which again was we were projecting 16 in the morning,
Bridgewater had 13. We were projecting 16 in the evening, Bridgewater had seven total trips. And on Saturday we were projected 25 and Bridgewater had nine. So again kind of what I was stating is the it is probably on the conservative side when you compare to existing sites
located in the same similar market. Hillsboro again almost twice the size. The numbers were 11 trips. We're projecting 16 and our buildings half the size. 11 trips in the evening. We're saying 16 again. And on Saturday that
generated 17 trips and we're at 25. So just you know I just wanted to put in there I have to use the it. It's what the DOT recommends or requires but when we counted similar sites even ones of significantly larger size the trip generation rates were less than what we
had in terms of the IT projections. And so again that's a a you know nearby sites you know of the same use although again the building type is a little different. uh uh but again just want to put that on the record because you'll also hear some later testimony from the operator or the expert operator in terms
of what she sees in the industry in terms of trip generation. So I want to be able to provide you the information on those two sites. Now when I want to compare trip generation because I'm going to stick on that subject to other permitted uses because obviously we're before this board because a self-s storage building
is not permitted in this zone. I want to explain what other possibly uh developments could generate on a site like this. So, uh, one example would be a medical office building, uh, that does not allow for, um, uh, that would be outpatient only. Inpatient is not
permitted in the zone at 13,700 square feet, which would be compliant with your F. Uh, that would be your, you know, so be compliant with F, compliant with uh, the use. >> When you picked the use and the square footage, you you modeled it after the
zoning ordinance as to what would be built basically as of right. Correct. >> Correct. Okay. >> Correct. So a 13,700T medical office building would generate about 466 trips a day. Again, the it even using the high number is 98. So
something around four times the amount of trips during the day. And in the busiest hours, it would be between 40 and 50 trips during the busiest hours. What a medical office building that is compliant. Not, you know, a 75,000t medical office building, but a 13,700T
medical office building. So again, something in the range of about four times less on a daily basis of the medical office our use compared to medical office building. Um a daycare facility, if you had a 13,000 square foot daycare facility, that would generate a little more than 500 trips in
a day. Again, so that's about five times what even our conservative number would estimate. And daycarees are very peak driven. You have a lot of parents dropping off at once or picking up at once. Um, and that actually generates about 150 trips in the busiest hour. So
that a daycare would generate probably more traffic in one hour than this site would generate over an entire day. An office building, a general office, if you know, I know there's an engineering firm that's behind the site, if they were to open in this location at 13,000 square feet, uh, a general office
building of that size, the IT or the DOT would estimate that would generate just about 300 trips. So a little more than three times the number of trips than our site would generate in a day even if we're using the conservative numbers. So again I just wanted to kind of give that kind of comparison to some other
permitted uses here that would not be before this board seeking use variance would not be seeking an F variance but would still generate more traffic than what we are projecting for our site even in the worst case scenario. So that's a summary of the trip generation. uh trip generation.
Typically, um anything that generates less than 50 trips during a peak hour is is uh considered um a minimal amount of traffic and would not significantly change how the roadways around it would function. Even from a Department of Transportation, the New Jersey Department of Transportation
perspective, this type of use is considered a minor access permit. It's basically the lowest level of intensity permit that you could get from Department of Transportation. So again, you're talking about a low uh trip generator um from a DOT perspective as well. Now, looking interior to the site,
I'm going to talk about parking and circulation next. One, parking. Um we did similar um parking counts at the Hillsboro and Bridgewater sites. And just uh for the record, I don't think I put on the uh I explained when we did those counts in Bridgewwater and
Hillsboro. They were on Friday, April 24th, 2026 from 9 in the morning to 11 in the morning, 4 pm to 6 pm. And then Saturday, April 25th, 2026 from 11:00 a.m. to 2 p.m. We selected those time periods because you'll hear from the
expert. Uh Fridays and Saturdays, especially when you get towards the end of the month, typically would be the peak usage of a self-s storage building. people who are moving in and out of apartments, things like that. That would be a time period you see your kind of peak uh amount of activity on the site for those type of users. Uh so again, we
did pick Fridays and Saturdays near the end of the month uh in April. >> And that was again just to be conservative. Correct. >> Correct. You know, if you look at an average day, it's possible that you know the average day could be less than that. We're looking at Friday and Saturday, which I believe would be the peak um from those Bridgewater and Hillsboro
sites. So, we did parking analysis at both those sites. The most cars we saw at the Bridgewater site parked was seven. And again, that's the site that's around the same size as ours. >> When you say seven, just explain what that means. What that means, >> there were seven physical cars parked at
that site at any one time during the time period we were there. That would include if an employee was there, if a box truck was there, you know, uh, unloading something, if customers were looking to rent a unit or customers were unloading or loading their stuff. Basically, there were seven cars parked
at that site at the busiest time. >> Okay. So, the most you ever saw parked at one time during the peak hours was seven vehicles. >> Yes. And that was at 10 a.m. on a morning. >> And that was and that's again there would have more square footage. That facility has more square footage than what we're proposing. >> Yes. Bridgewater has a little more
square footage. When we look at Hillsboro, which again is about twice the size, that had eight cars parked on the Saturday. That was the most we saw parked at that site at any one time. Um so again, and that was almost twice the size of ours. If we were to kind of, you know, take um the observations that we
made and kind of, you know, fit it to what what this square footage is would be, uh you know, what a site of this square footage would be. you'd be looking at anywhere between uh a maximum of having six or seven cars parked on the site at any one time. Just to remind the board and I'm gonna refer to the
exhibit again. And >> so back to A3 >> and I don't know if you guys need to put it on the screen. >> Yeah, I think we should just just so everybody can see it. >> Yes, please. >> So I'm zooming in again and just to remind the board and the public, we have eight parking spaces. Any one of those
eight parking spaces, you could have access into the BU building to get to the elevator and load up and down. So those first five spaces are for the gate. You could use them to unload and load your your your goods. The three space in the back could utilize the loading door which is located kind of in
the middle of the building. And you have a 40 foot area that is the loading area in between. Again, uh each U-Haul is, you know, about, you know, 8 feet wide. Um, I don't think, as people said, these are not professional U-Haul drivers drivers are not going to be able to fit eight feet each center on center and be
able to fit five uh vehicles there, but I think you could comfortably fit three and have some nice room for error if you're parked there and unloading. Uh, so again, you know, I would say at any one time you could have 11 vehicles kind of onsite loading, unloading, customer,
future customer type of operation. Um, we also again have that I think it's a little greater than 40 feet um, uh, extension at the end of the drive aisle area that again allows for easier access to back in. You know, worst case if a vehicle arrived, the U-Haul truck
arrived and there was no open space, I imagine they would kind of wait in that area kind of out of the drive aisle and be able to, you know, make their maneuvers when something opened up. But again based on our observations of even at the Bridgewater site uh sorry the Hillsboro site which is our twice our size eight vehicles parked there again I
think we comfortably could fit 11 uh you know without there being any type of um issue with uh loading or unloading or the people kind of pulling into their spaces. So that's the um you know that's the analysis that we performed from a parking perspective. Again you'll hear
extensive testimony from the um the self- storage expert. Um, I think you'll not you'll see that her numbers are likely even lower than the numbers that I'm sharing with you, but I wanted to make sure that I put on the record what the IT and the Department of Transportation are going to require us to uh project for this site, what
similar sites in the area have in terms of trips and parking, and then again explain how the circulation would work uh in and around the site as well. >> Okay. So just to kind of summarize from a trip generation or traffic perspective in your professional opinion, this is
one of the most or if not the lowest intense use that could go in at any location. Correct. >> From a per square foot basis, it is I think the second lowest use that could that the it has any data on as a self-s storage building. >> All right. And compared to the other
permitted uses in the zone built as of right there, this generates substantially less traffic than those. Correct. Correct. As as I mentioned, the medical office building about 13,000 square feet, which would be as of right, would generate a little more than four times the amount of daily traffic.
Daycare about five times the daily traffic. An office building about three times the daily traffic. And again, that's comparing to the IT numbers going back to 1993. I think we're seeing uh even lower numbers than that on these type of sites. >> All right. And with it which is a
national average that sometimes boards are you know question and say well we need some more you know data from from the local area. So you went above and beyond and studied other locations in the area. Correct. >> Correct. And again I think they are
indicative of of the market area. Um, but I will say that you'll hear from the op from the expert that does the operations that the fact that those sites have rollup doors may actually make them a little more intense and a little more utilized in terms of like a daily customer basis than uh these type
of units. So again, I think that even though that data may be conservative from what we'll be seeing here, >> but point being it was similar. It was actually similar or less than what it projected. >> Correct. >> Okay. And then from a from a parking perspective, again, you did the same
thing. You took industry data, but you also took local data to see if your numbers panned out into what we're proposing. Correct. >> Correct. >> And you believe based on what we're proposing from a parking perspective is more than appropriate for this location. >> Correct. And again, we studied sites
that were larger, some significantly larger. Uh we studied sites, I would say, on busier roadways or at least similar roadway in terms of volume of of traffic. Um and uh and again we saw that you know parking numbers were even during the busiest times near the end of month on a Friday and Saturday were
would be sufficient to fit on this site. >> Okay. And I know we didn't talk about this but we should get it on the record. I know Paul talked about the site layout but you believe all the uh parking spaces and loading areas are sufficiently sized. >> Correct. Then as Paul mentioned, you know, the site has been designed for I would say the best circulation would be
the um you know, the single unit 30 or I think Paul mentioned the 20 I think it's like a 26 and a half foot long U-Haul style truck. Things of larger wheelbase, you know, the the you know, if there's a a larger U-Haul or SU40 can maneuver on the site, it's not going to be as as
easy. And then we would definitely be willing to prohibit and you'll hear from the OP, you know, the operator expert on how they prohibit tractor trailers from utilizing uh sites like this. Okay. And then the we have the required number of ADA parking stalls. >> Correct. >> And that is appropriately sized as well. >> Yes.
>> And located where it's supposed to be. >> Yes. >> In terms of um sight distance and it's um I guess the way that it's it relates to the sidewalk. Can you just speak to that as well? >> Correct. Any vehicles coming in and out of the driveway will have appropriate sight distance to see any type of
pedestrians walking by. I would note that there are currently on street parking spaces in the location where our driveway is. Um, obviously, you know, we are also closing a driveway, so it's possible that the parking spaces may move or be shifted around. I know I have not coordinated with um, you know, any
parking authority about replacing the parking spaces or moving them to where the old driveway was. Um, and obviously this being a DOT roadway, there likely is some sort of a agreement or coordination that needs to be had with the DOT as well. But obviously, when you eliminate the parking space that's blocking our driveway, you would then be
able to get in and out and see properly. >> All right. So you see no negative impacts from a traffic perspective on the roadway network from this proposal. >> Correct. >> As well as parking. You don't view any any see any negative impacts, any overflow or anything along those lines? >> Correct.
>> All right. And the circulation, the parking, and the layout has been designed appropriately, safely, and within industry standards. >> Yes. >> Okay. I have nothing further for Mr. Seckler as to traffic. Again, like I said earlier, we're going to call him back on planning. So So you will see him
again. Anybody from the board have any questions on Mr. Sler's testing? >> I do. Yeah. So, what is the lowest use? You mentioned this is second lowest. >> So, so the and I'm going to be clear here. I would say the first generation of data centers, not the data centers
they're building now, but the ones that were almost like offsite emergency in case of Hurricane Sandy, the financial institutions had backup where it's basically just a bunch of backup computers running. That was the lowest because it was maybe one person keeping an eye on the building. >> Okay. And then you just mentioned that
you're going to close off the one driveway and will the town lose parking spots on street? >> So I'm going to try to highlight it. I don't know how well everyone can see the screen there. This dark gray area on the street is where the existing driveway
is. This is where the proposed driveway is. I don't see a reason why parking spaces could be shifted to the left a little bit to kind of go where the old driveway was. I know at some point you get closer to the traffic signal and you don't want to have parking, but I think you're
probably far enough away in this spot where, you know, you would probably, you know, this driveway affects maybe three spaces, but depending on how you shift them, I think you'll be able to, you know, make them up. >> Okay. And then you say our the building
that you're presenting is 75,000 square feet. And how many units are in there? >> So, I think you'll hear from the architect. I think they have a layout that is a little under 400 units. Um but again, I think that they finalized that unit number um kind of as they get
closer to construction documents, but I think their current layout is a little less than 400. >> Yeah. But and to be fair, as we talked about at the first meeting, the the layout could change and it's really based on square footage and sort of the demand whether more 5x5s are needed or more 10 by10s. So you could have 400,
you could have 600. Um, but just to fully answer your question though, which is what I think you were asking and maybe we should be more clear about it. Does the number of units or or the square footage dictate your trip generation? And do you if if they were to do 400 versus 600, would you see any
would that in any way change your analysis? So for the record, um I did look at the it they do have some data on the per unit basis of the calculations where we used square footage and when I go back to the 1993 data, we have 98
trips in a day. >> If I use 400 units, it would be 72 trips in a day. So it's, you know, we're likely on the conservative end using square footage. I haven't ran the calculations to see when that break even point is. Maybe it's 590 units is when
it would be 98 trips uh as well. But there is if I use 400 actually be less traffic than the square footage that I used. >> Okay. And then you say that Bridgewater is similar size. It's a little bit bigger. Do you know how many units are
in there? I don't know the number of units in there, but I think you'll hear some confirmation from the operations expert that in terms of leased. Both of the sites that I studied are considered, you know, uh, fully leased. Again, I think there's there's vacancies. There's not, you know, 100% full, but they're at
what they consider in the business as fully leased. I don't know if that's 85% leased or 90% leased, but it's basically, you know, a fully operating site. >> Yeah. And I'm glad Mr. McLaclin's asking these questions because these are the kind of things that we kind of anticipated the board would be
interested in. So even if you're off by 10% by 20%. You're still there's still much less traffic than what the permitted uses would be. Correct. >> Correct. And even from using these high-end numbers from 1993, even if I
took Bridgewater and said, "Hey, listen. We're going to be like Bridgewater. Let's say we're 20% more or 30% more." you're still talking about, you know, uh, significantly less trips than a medical office, an office, a daycare, and probably not even quite hitting the IT numbers that I have to use with the
DOT. So, there is a a a factor of safety in those numbers. >> And you're also not near the DOT's significant impact on traffic and what they would consider to be anything that would negatively impact or materially impact the roadway. >> Correct. >> Okay. And then in your analysis you use
medical building, daycare, and general office. If uh 13,000 square feet, what's the parking requirement number of spaces for those? >> I think most of those are four or five per thousand. Um so again, at I hate
doing math while testifying. Uh five per thousand is probably uh 50 about 65 parking spaces if it's that number. Um, again, we could be 50. The the coverage on the site is compliant. So, you know,
a a compliant medical office would probably be a building of 13,000 square feet, which I'm going to just approximately probably draw in here as blue, but the whole rest of the site would be able to be parking because that would get us the whole rest of what's shown as developed on this site would be
able to be parking, which I think we'd be able to get that 50 or 60 in that area because I understand the question if >> I don't want to put, you know, I don't want to say something's could be built and then the parking would require an impervious coverage variance or a setback varian. I feel pretty confident that if our
building was 13,000 square ft, we would be able to fit the parking in the rest of disturbed area we're showing. >> Yeah. And we and we discussed that. You're asking us all the things we kind of like went through in our analysis just to make sure we were compare doing a proper comparison as to something that could be built, you know, with just a
site plan with not seeking parking relief, not seeking setback relief and not seeking, you know, coverage relief or F. And I think even we would be compliant if we had the medical office building either it could be a 6,000 square foot box of two stories and you could have even, you know, more room to
disturb for parking. So I feel confident we could do the parking uh with that scenario. >> So in the three that you use as comparison and as popular as apartments are in Somerville right now, what what would your comparison reveal if it were
apartments? So, I'm going to do a rough comparison. Um, >> and that that just to be clear though, just and we're happy to to to get dig into that, but is that that wasn't one of the permitted uses. Correct. >> I >> Michael might might know. I don't think in the professional office zone, multif
family is permitted. Correct. >> No more than two. >> Okay. All right. But let but let's run the numbers that >> two units two units would generate about one car an hour. So, you know, at most are in the peak hour uh would be typically what you're generating. Yeah. two family except duplex is permitted.
Uh but um on a per you know if you had a 13,000 square foot residential building I'm going to assume there's let's say 11 units you know you have room for you know thousand square foot a unit and then you got some hallways and stuff like that that would probably only
generate like five or six trips during the busiest hour. So that'd be 11 you know a 10 or 11 unit building. >> Okay. And then one last question. What's your feeling about the gate? >> So, one, I like the gate where it's located. Again, I know it's when I was
watching it's difficult to see. The gate is located where I'm highlighting in blue right now where it's about 90 feet into the site. So, again, if you're thinking cars are 20t long or a U-Haul, even if it's 30 feet long, if you had three U-Hauls come in, they would one after another, which you'll hear from
the operator doesn't happen. Um, you would be able to stack those three in there at any one time waiting for the gate to open. Um, again, I don't know. You'll hear from the operator. This may be a site where the gate is open when the when it's when there's someone in the building and then maybe the gate is
up when it's closed, which means you're likely seeing even less traffic or less cars parked in the area where you need to kind of make that K turn. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Anyone else want to from the board have any questions? >> Yeah, just two quick questions. One is, you ever see my daughter try to back a
truck up? They a lot of them now are starting to have cameras and things like that from what we're used to. So >> garbage pickup they it's maneuverable. It's okay for garbage dumps to pick up. >> Yes. And I think you'll hear that the garbage pickups like once a day, once a week, sorry. Um at most. And that we've
also angled the trash enclosure to make it easier for that kind of pickup maneuver to occur. >> You can maneuver out and turn and drive straight out, not not backing in. >> Correct. They would pull in, load up, and then turn themselves around and drive out face head first. those first there. Okay.
>> Just a quick question. The DOT have you are they going to allow you to put a spot there? Because I think that's a New Jersey Transit bus stop in front of your building. >> All right. So then that case we would not be able to put and honestly with parking on DOT roadways, especially when there's bus stops, we end up having to
coordinate not just with the burrow, the state, and then transit also. Everyone all weighs in on this. >> I think it's from that existing driveway to the corner. There's no parking. >> Okay. So maybe we'll get the one space where the existing driveway is because again, like you said, I think the bus stop starts right after it, but maybe we're not able to shift any further
down. >> But just to be clear, having a driveway here for a commercial use, any commercial use would dictate that type of driveway. Correct. >> You'd have I mean, the only road this site has access on is is West End. So >> just curious. >> Yeah. No, I just wanted to make it
wasn't particular to the use that that that's all. It was more just about the building. >> John, do you have a question? >> Yeah. Uh, I don't know if this is for you or the expert or the planner who looks a lot like me. Um, how far do people travel to storage
facilities? >> Oh, that's a the that's what we're going to lead with or one of the things we'll lead with on with from the operator and how they do that analysis. Great question. We're we'll we'll address that. >> I've seen her slides. She's got the answer. >> How long how far they travel, how long they stay. >> You will 100%
>> how many square feet per person you should expect. I was going to initially have Matt go into some of that, but once we um now knowing that we have a consultant who actually has personal knowledge over 30 years of seeing this, I think she's the best person to answer that. >> And then um have you worked on any
storage facilities in downtown walkable communities? >> Um interesting question. Um, so from a planning perspective, I will discuss uh other sites that have self storage in kind of this nearby and I'm going to say
fringe of the downtown. I know it's in the walkable area. The down, you know, the uh burough hall is across the street. Uh but it is not, you know, I would say in the um kind of redevelopment business zone section. We're in the, you know, uh you know, the office residential zone portion of the
downtown. I have not personally worked on any, but again, I've observed them, seen other ones get constructed and see the style of building that's been constructed in other areas, but I personally have not done traffic engineering for a site, this specific site. >> Okay. And you have you done anything
related to like pedestrian access to these kinds of facilities because there are apartments all within a quarter mile, walking distance, and I can't imagine that someone who's getting their Christmas lights is going to drive a quarter mile. Correct. So I think and there was a good
comment in the review letter that our our site engineers said they would address regarding pedestrian access from the right of way towards the building. I would say you know a lot of sites if you're building a highway site. Yeah. No one's walking to it. But you're right. This is a type of site where you have a lot of apartments nearby. I think that's one of the reasons why I think the
applicant wants to put this here is because it becomes almost like where you used to have storage in your basement. Now you got storage across the street or storage diagonally across the street. you could grab and go your your you know uh you know your Christmas lights or things like that you know offseason if they're if it's not too heavy if you do
need to drive you're switching over your clothes and coats maybe you're taking your car but we will provide access from a pedestrian standpoint to the building. >> Yeah. But you didn't um accommodate pedestrian traffic in any of your analysis at this point. >> We did not count pedestrian traffic. We
just counted vehicular traffic and especially the two sites we studied I think are both sites that we didn't notice any pedestrian traffic because again I don't think >> Bridgewood or or Hillsboro generates any pedestrian traffic. >> Well, also I mean if if you think about it if you're saying that you get how
many customers in the peak hour were you anticipating? >> Um I mean depends on the hour but if we got 11 customers and two of them were walkers then our cars is nine instead of 11. Right. And and the point and even if half of them walked, I mean, I would I don't think it's I think it's going to be more seasonal like kind of like what
you indicated, but even if like half of them walked, that's only five people in the or or six people in the peak hour. It wouldn't be substantial. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Anyone else on the board have any question? >> Yeah, just to follow up on that. Um is
there a number like worst case scenario uh for the peak hours uh for how many people would be on site at one particular time? I may have missed it. >> So, that is where I would typically look at the parking number because that would be the most people you'd have on one site assuming everyone is parking if no
one's walking as the other uh board member mentioned. So, again, what we saw for the parking numbers, the mo maximum number of cars we saw parked in Hillsboro was nine. So, that' be the most we'd expect. And again, that site is double about double the size. Uh Bridgewater was seven. So, that would be the most we'd expect. And again, we
counted Friday, Saturday, end of month, which you'll hear from the operator, as basically as as busy as you'll get at the sites. >> Does that change during the month? People um people moving out, moving in during the uh beginning, end of the
month versus the middle of the month. >> Yeah, you'll hear from the operator that and and you'll hear directly from her because she's the one who has, I would say, that level of experience. You know, you got the mover outs at one, you know, just near the end of the month, let's say, right before the end of the month. the mover ends, you know, just after the beginning of the month and the middle of
the month tends to be, let's say, a little uh lower than that, but you'll see what I think she might even have some um either charts or or figures about that stuff. Okay, I have a question. Um I wanted to know about the the emergency turning
movements for for the fire department. I I don't maybe I might have missed that. um how you know in case of a fire, how can emergency vehicles get ingress and eress? >> Yeah, I think the fire Michael was coordinating with the fire official, but I think a it's fully there's full fire
suppression within the building. So, the building is a fully sprinklered building which the architect I think spoke about that the first meeting, but he can go into that again. But I believe I don't believe the fire official had any concerns about the access. >> Stuart, there's not going to be any access. My understanding is they're
going to be parking the emergency response buildings on West End. They're not going to try to go onto the site uh because you can't physically get a fire truck off the site. >> There was a change. There was an emergency pad site, but still required maneuver road that didn't work for the
fire truck there where the bio detention basin is now. used to be a pad, a gravel area for truck moving, but that required a turn. You couldn't get the truck off the site. And uh my understanding is the
board of engineers and the fire marshall are not uh planning on going on the site for a response. The will be it'll be addressed from West End Avenue. >> Anyone else? >> Rich, are you okay with that?
Rich, are you >> okay? >> 72 trips per day. Is that correct? >> So, >> I think >> I gave you a lot of numbers, so I'm gonna I'm gonna and I'm going to caveat
them with different ways. So if I just run to the IT book based on square footage and going back using data as far back as 1993, this would say 98 trips. So 49 customers. If I limit the data set
to data only from 2000 to today at that square footage, it's 56 trips which is 28 customers in a day. The 72 number was the question was well what if the units change go up and down? it was 400 units
using the oldest data set was 72 trips uh which would be uh 36 customers. Um so again I think looking at the data that I'm seeing the 56 in a day which would be 28 customers is probably more aligned
with what I would expect but the DOT is going to require us to permit this thing at the 98 number. >> Anyone else on the board have any questions? Matt, the analysis on the 13,000 the medical building and the daycare that's assuming that the
historic the building structure is going to be demolished and consolidation of a lots. So, it's apples and apples. You're not saying one lot, the vacant lot. When you do that analysis, you're looking at the the tear down of the existing structure and using the the footprint of
the both lots. Correct. >> Correct. Because in order to make the F work, I need 54,900 square feet. So yes, it would be this same application. We'd be before the planning board, right? And it would be a building much smaller, a lot more
parking, and generate either three, four or five times more traffic, >> right? So like the medical office would have a huge on-site parking, but like a daycare would have almost zero on-site parking, be all drop off. >> Yeah. Daycarees of that size, you'd have probably 35 parking spaces just for drop
off, pickup type operations there, and 20 staff members is usually you'd have on. there would be a huge swing difference on the parking layout for those type of situations. >> Correct. And again, you may end up with, you know, a disturbed area very similar to what you see here. You would just
have the building and the parking sizes almost flipped. You'd have very small building, lots of parking versus this, which is larger building, smaller parking. >> Yeah. The point of saying it all was to show that your trip generation or is going to be lower than almost any other
permitted use on the site. That's the reason for bringing up the analysis. Correct. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> Anyone from the audience have any questions on the testimony just given by Mr. Sler? >> March Sullivan, 8 South Richards Avenue
in Somerville. The two reference facilities that you cited in Bridgewater and Hillsboro, could you tell us the street location of those? What roads did they access? >> So, um, the >> Yep. I'll, uh, the one in Bridgewater
was 601 Route 28, which is just after Country Club Road, so it's just west of Country Club Road. >> And the one in Hillsboro is 144 US 206. It's on the northbound side of 206, just south of, I think I said, Brooks Boulevard.
>> Okay. And then, uh, just to clarify, um, uh, what I heard in response to Mr. McLaclin's um question about the loss of potential loss of street parking. Uh you I think I heard you say that you can't
guarantee there wouldn't be loss of street parking because of the bus stop and the relocation of the driveway may not allow you to replace the loss of parking. >> Yeah, I think we'll definitely be able to make up one of the spaces. Um, our
driveway looks like it directly impacts one space and parts of two other ones. So, I I know we'll definitely, again, it looks like we'll definitely be able to replace the one space. The question is, the two that we barely touch, is there a shifting that could go on or you could save one or two of them, but again, it I
can't say for certain. Again, I forgot the bus stop exists to the west of there, so we can't just keep adding parking. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Natalia Clayman. One is Summit Street. So, um, if memory serves right, it's a two-way street, right, with no left
turns allowed? >> No. Uh, I think we are proposing a full movement driveway. So, you'd be able to make a left in or a left out just as the driveways that serve the similar businesses today have. >> Okay. So you will be able to make the left turn in a truck coming from the
west from the seal circle potentially. >> Correct. But I do want to one caveat to that is that department of transportation also has jurisdiction. So they can there are many times that we go before boards we seek approvals. We go to the department of transportation. They may say nope sorry write right in
right out only. But we are proposing full movement and really department of transportation be the ones that would indicate whether that is okay or not. Is there a plan in case the department of transportation says no, you cannot make a left turn? >> Then we would have to post signage and
honestly what would happen is we'd have to go to the council, mayor and council and have them um enforce uh the turn restrictions. So, you know, you have no left turn signs and if someone does it, the police would have the ability to ticket if they made that. That's usually condition of a DOT approval if they want
to restrict the turns. Again, I I think at this level roadway at this speed, 25 miles an hour, one lane in each direction, I don't think with clear sight lines, I don't think they're going to restrict the turning movements. But again, they have their own ability to require anything from an applicant.
>> Right. So, I I understand that. So potentially if the no left turns will be allowed, the trucks driven by non-professional drivers, amateur driver, 30 foot truck would be going into the downtown Somerville to make a
left turn and kind of come back. >> They would be in order to come in, they would be coming through downtown Somerville. When they'd be leaving, they'd be going away from downtown Somerville. So potential at the worst at at most you would be sending 72 trucks
to downtown. >> Hold on. Hold on. No one ever said that there and there would be 72 trucks uh coming in. Uh and we'll have the operator explain how many what the distribution is between trucks and vehicles typically. >> Okay.
>> But um Matt, can you just explain again in the peak hour how many vehicles may go in and out of the property? Well, again, I think when we were talking about the number of trips, again, a truck that comes in and then goes out is
counted twice. So, looking at I'll use the Bridgewater site again as an example. Um, you know, on a on a Saturday, that site generated nine trips in the peak hour on Saturday. So,
that's about five trips coming in, four trips coming out. You'll hear from the operator expert in terms of the amount of people that bring trucks versus cars. But again, that's the level of traffic that that Bridgewater site generates. And again, that's around the same square footage of ours.
>> Okay. So, I understand. So basically just to make sure I understand if the left turn is allowed then you would have not unknown number of trucks as of this moment waiting to make a left turn or potentially if it's not allowed
then those trucks will be going downtown >> trying to make a turn >> could it could be someone who is moving out of or into one of the apartments in the downtown you know bringing their truck from the apartment to here um to deliver to you know load it in anticipation of moving.
>> Okay, I understand. Thank you. My second question is um we talked about that your test were done with the 30 foot truck, the right SU30. Um what if you have a truck like SUV or a pickup truck uh
towing a trailer? What's the average size of that? >> Um so what's I guess the question would be what type of trailer are you referring to? A trailer that's trailing a car. You know, there are trailers that are cars on the back. their trailers that are little two- wheeled units. I don't know what. >> Well, you're trailing one of those, you
know, covered trailers where you can put one unit apartment or something. So, I Googled it quickly according to Google, but it's not always, right? It says it's anywhere the let's say F-150 pickup plus a trailer is between 45 and 60 foot,
which is almost double the size of the truck that you tested. >> Yeah. In that case, if that style vehicle, and again, you'll hear from the operator expert in terms of the type of vehicles that people bring. Um, I think there's two options. One, a someone
bring that style trailer, maybe backing into one of the spaces, unhooking the trailer and using that as a uh, you know, basically unloading the trailer when it's unhooked. So, they would almost take up two parking spaces, one for their trailer and one for their car. And again, we do have that 40 foot area
in the rear that, you know, again, if a vehicle is that oversized, they'd be able to pull all the way back there um and then uh be able to unload or load at that point and then be able to kturn again utilizing the um the uh loading area. The other thing I want to mention,
you'll hear again, I I'm I don't want to spoil all the surprises that the operator is going to bring, but a lot of the a very very very large percentage of these units are sold online and not in person. So, when someone is selling it online or over the phone, basically what
you have is someone basically telling them what style vehicles you can or can't bring. So, a site like this, if you were to rent a unit online, um you would get an information that says, you know, this site does not allow any tractor trailers, doesn't allow vehicles of a certain size. Additionally, if you
come in person, most people rent their unit before they have all of their belongings in their vehicle ready to unload. They may come a day early, a week early, things like that. So, they would have an idea of what type of offerings this site has. As mentioned, there are I just listed two other sites
within, you know, two to three miles of here that have ground flooror units that have different circulation patterns. So again, if this site doesn't work for the type of vehicle that someone wants to bring, there obviously is competition the area in which, you know, those people can utilize those areas. So if
you're someone who wants to, you know, bring a, you know, a whole horsedrawn uh vehicle, you could unload in Hillsboro or or Bridgewater and not necessarily at this site. >> Okay. Okay. So, we're basically hoping that people will play by the rules and not bring the vehicle that we're telling
them they should not be bringing. >> Yes. >> Got it. Thank you. >> My name is David Kenny. I live on Eastern Avenue in Somerville. Lifelong resident. Um through your explanation here, you referred to trips of the
various sites in comparison to the one we're talking about. Do any of those other sites have four to five road uh access to that site as compared to let's say Fern or some of the others
that you talked about? This probably this intersection is the busiest in all in all of Somerville. And I would say that >> as far as trips, as far as the the cars that are on those roadways and then enter a fire truck having to come into
the facility. >> So I would say that's one of the benefits of this application. If your concern is that there's a these are very busy roads, west end, mountain, correct? >> If those are busy, I would say this is the type of use that you want to see because what can be built as of right
medical office building four times the amount of traffic. an office building three times the amount of traffic than even our conservative numbers. So again, I would say if your concern is this is a busy area, we don't want traffic, this is the use for you versus what else is
permitted in >> I don't want traffic from from the senior citizen and the public library and the tax office, those people, do you count them as trips? Again, we are studying the amount of traffic that we would project to
generate if we get built. I'm not I'm not counting the what the existing traffic. I'm saying how much traffic is going to be added to the the level of traffic that you're talking about. >> Those others have to be included.
>> That's all. >> Anyone else? Suzanne Confer, North Midaw Street. I would just like you to revisit a little bit about the volume of trips and peak hours and when those are. I understood it was late Friday and on
Saturdays. Is that correct? And rush hour times. >> So, I'll tell you the periods that we studied. You'll also hear from the operating expert who has >> of course >> tons and tons of data of how frequent people come, how many t uh you know how
long they stay, things like that. So what we did our counts was 9 to 11 in the morning and 4 to 6 in the evening on the weekdays which was Friday and then Saturday from 11 to 2 at those two sites at Bridgewater and Hillsboro. What we
found was that at both sites, the busiest hour in the morning was 9:30 to 10:30 on Friday. In the evening, it was at one of the sites was from 4:00 to 5:00. The other site it was from 5 to 6. And then on Saturday, one of the sites was busier from 11:30 to 12:30 and the
other site was busier from 1 to 2. So again, it's varying depending on the the customer base, but you know, typically it looks like it's a little after the morning peak hour. 9:30 is a little after what we typically see peak hours, usually 8 to 9 in the morning. Um,
evening somewhat mimics the evening rush hour. Saturday, it looks like it could be, you know, early Saturday or it could be a little bit later in the afternoon. >> Okay. And just to confirm, the two sites you said, two sites you studied are not
in walkable areas, right? They're highway sites, correct? They don't have walkways that go to schools or to burrow offices or libraries or downtown or restaurants or cruiser night. >> Correct. >> Okay. So, have you taken into account the fact that there's significant pedestrian traffic, especially during
some of those peak times? >> And again, I would state >> and I say, hold on one second. I say that not just in terms of no one's obviously clogging up the sidewalk as a pedestrian. I'm talking more about people walking and not anticipating those kind of vehicles being in that area at that time. A truck's a little
different than a car pulling out of a bank. >> And I think you'll hear from the next witness regarding the amount of people that arrive in truck versus car. So again, I'm just saying trips. You're going to hear from them in terms of the percentage that would bring trucks versus cars. But again, in just in terms
of the potential interaction between a pedestrian and a vehicle, so I'm just going to use the term vehicle. This is on the lower end of that potential interaction because we have so few trips compared to other uses that would be permitted in this zone that can be built
on this site. So I would say from a pedestrian vehicle interaction perspective, this is a better use than what can be built here could be built here as of right. But you'll hear from the next witness regarding cars versus trucks. And I will
qualify what you're saying with it's a better use in terms of perhaps trips per hour. That does not qualify. It's a better use overall. >> So please make that whole argument. >> Right. His testimony right now is just based on traffic. That's >> and I just want to reconfirm that it is just talking about traffic not benefit
to our community >> as of right now. Correct. Of course generated from this >> from this project. >> I'm sorry. >> It's traffic generated from this project, not traffic that's already there. The library, >> right? No, but my question is traffic generated from >> No, your No, no, your your point is
noted. Yes, thank you. >> No problem. >> Hi, I'm Elizabeth Eisinger. I live at 25 Mercer Street. I'm actually uh carrying on sort of a theme that with the people in front of me. I'm wondering if you
have done comparisons in um similar urban I wouldn't say we're in urban area but similar areas such as Princeton or Westfield or Summit in the downtown area in walkable areas where there are other
high pedestrian uses. Um pedest uh Princeton especially is is very pedestrian. Um can you do you have comparisons with that? Could you make a comparison with that? >> I I haven't studied and I don't know of any self- storage buildings in those
communities. I would say I do know there's a self- storage in South Orange. Um but again, from a traffic engineering perspective, I'm tasked with looking at existing sites and counting them. I think later on after we go through the planning
testimony, there may be more discussion regarding the type of use in relation to the area or neighborhood that it's in. from a traffic perspective, which is what I'm testifying to now, I could only count what exists. And if there's not a self storage in Westfield or self
storage in Princeton, I can't count the traffic going in and out of it. >> Okay. I I'm I'm very well aware of the of the differences in the um Route 22 or Route 28 or 206. I can't remember which ones you've you've mentioned. 206. Okay.
I lived in Bridgewater for almost uh almost 20 years and their their urban or their driving use it is a much more car driven society. So having extra trucks
isn't isn't the um >> impact on the community. The question is is is I recognize that this is a low number. When you were testifying, you said you you kept testifying in terms of cars. This this is not just cars and
daycare centers don't generally have pickup trucks or or they may have pickup trucks, but they certainly don't have U-Hauls. So, it isn't apples to apples. Would you agree to that? >> I would say that I should have I did say the word cars. I should have said vehicles to be to
>> throughout the testimony. I heard I heard cars. I could be wrong. I apologize, but >> and I'll apologize that the correct term that I should have been using is vehicles. You'll hear from the next witness regarding the frequency of truck versus car or you know car versus a commercial vehicle. Um
>> and um and I think that hopefully will help answer or help inform the public in terms of that kind of idea of what type of vehicles will be using this site here. >> Okay. Thank you. Mike Weiss, uh, West Summit Street. Um,
so during your testimony, um, you, uh, referenced many times the study, local study you did in Bridgewater on a Saturday. Um, was that study done over multiple Saturdays across many weeks or months? >> Th those two sites were studied that same Friday and same Saturday. We
studied it one day on a Saturday, one day on a Friday. Again, for the purpose of comparing that to the IT, the numbers came in much lower. I think you'll hear from the next witness that even the numbers that we see in Bridgewood or we see in Hillsboro is maybe even higher
than what the industry sees on a on a on an average on an average day. But you'll hear that from the next witness. I can only testify to what I collected. And again, even if the numbers were 20% higher in Bridgewater, Hillsboro a different day, it's still less than what the DOT
requires me to utilize. So I think there is some conservative factor of safety in there. >> But it was one Saturday. >> One Saturday, one Friday. >> So okay. And what was the weather on that Saturday? >> I don't remember. It's possible that it
rained because I felt like it rained a lot this spring. So >> it rained and it was cold. >> But yeah, when you got to move, you got to move. So >> yeah, >> you can't tell the landlord. >> I stayed home that day because it was cold. >> Correct. You can't tell the landlord I'm going to take another month because I uh because it's raining today.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Anyone else? >> Okay. >> Do you want to take just a five minute break? Is that okay? >> Five. >> Whatever you want. It's up to you. It's up to you. >> Have to take a break.
>> How much time do you want to take? Just to the 10 minutes just so the public knows. Okay. >> Got to see how many points Bon Rose scored. Bring >> I don't think I've ever had public care so much >> first quarter >> Bob. again.
>> I just got a text. >> Can you do inspections of the curb out there of Dunkin Donuts >> tomorrow morning? >> Oh, all right. >> All right. I'll send the guy a text. Tell him that you can do it. I'm that border adjustment and I just got a break. This is the big uh 20 30 uh
75,000 foot self storage climate control across from Burough Hall. >> You can if you want to you can watch it on YouTube if you want. >> Well, we do have All right. >> It is the game. >> All right. Sounds good.
>> That's a whole another. >> I know. But it's so weird because he's going to have all these businesses where you think you think they're going to get business. You can tag
a little joke. That's something that's downtown. Somebody's gonna brand new robot. like one of those back windows.
>> I don't know. And that's when I said, >> I don't know how many cats So, we had an application. >> That seems to be the pattern. One way driveway. What happened? >> Art went crazy.
Oh my god, it was amazing. It was a whole group. >> It wasn't Tom at all. >> Well, live in a chair >> and he's holding his lunch. Is it live or is it
>> still rocking the whole deal? Yeah. >> All right. Take over. people. >> Yeah. Now I I hear actually busy.
And your Wow. Let me hear how it works. How are you? Really? I do their driveway. You >> guys ready? score. >> Oh,
>> Willis Reed, bring him out. >> Jason, can we get the game on? Okay, >> let's reconvene. >> I needed that break. I need that break ago. >> Okay. Okay. >> Are we ready, Mr. Chairman?
>> Yes, we are. >> Okay. So, uh the next witness we have is our um self storage consultant expert, uh Tracy Zels. So, um we should swear her in. >> Yes. >> Tracy cells. E L Ls.
>> Thank you very much. >> Okay. So, we're not qualifying her as an expert like a licensed professional, as an engineer or an architect or something like that. But what I'll do is I'll still have Miss Zels go through her background which establishes her
qualifications in this industry. But we're not going to, you agree, Cliff? We're not going to qualify her as a as an expert in a in a field. She's more of an operational >> opinion testimony. >> Pardon me. This is opinion testimony, but it's not she's not a fact witness. >> Correct. It's more it's it's it's based
on her on her personal knowledge of the industry. >> Experience and observation. >> Correct. All right. So, Tracy, why don't you first start with your um Make sure we get Okay. Let's just explain your um experience in the industry, how long you've been doing this, what positions
you've held, and your experience in managing, developing, and operating these facilities. >> Sure. Uh, I've been in this business 30 years. I hate to admit I'm getting that old. Um, I have held leadership positions with two of the major self
storage REITs and a uh VP role within both of those, but also within a smaller privately held national operator. I have been to over 400 facilities in my career and overseen management of 200 plus
facilities during that time. Uh in conjunction with that I have also developed I own and I continue to operate three facilities for my own account. I have been a consultant in this industry for the last 15 years working
with uh independent operator owners, developers and some of the largest private equity firms in the world who has a huge footprint of self- storage facilities throughout the country primarily in the northeast where I'm
actively involved in the operations, development, lease up, marketing, finance, the whole the whole bit. Um, I am a member of the National Board of the Self Storage Association, which is comprised of over 5,000 owner operators
throughout the country. I am also a member and the treasurer of the Florida Self Storage Association and presidentele of that association. >> Okay. So, your knowledge is based on development, operations, and management, correct?
>> Yes. >> Okay. So why don't we why don't we continue? I just wanted to establish that. Okay. So why don't you speak a and as part of your preparation for this application, you've seen the plans that have been prepared. You've you've you're
clearly familiar with the building, the layout, and you heard the civil engineering testimony and the traffic testimony that was uh spoken about this evening. >> Yes. And I have spent some time in this local market looking at the uh
population and the lack of existing self- storage facilities in this market, but more importantly all the new development of multif family in the market. Um so you've heard a lot of this before. uh gross building square footage of
about 75,655 which would equate well this is not final yet the number of units to be anywhere from 378 to a little bit higher I think we said up to 500 earlier that's yet to be determined once uh a operating
partner is on board they'll help in I finalizing that unit mix and what the ideal sizes are based on the demographics of this market. Um, this will be and this is I've seen a lot of facilities in my day and some are very
uh antiquated and built. You know, you kind of think of Silence of the Lambs type of self storage facility. Those days are over. Um, this facility that we're talking about is certainly gone above and beyond. It is going to be a
state-of-the-art first class uh facility with all the bells and whistles and certainly very aesthetically pleasing um when fit right in in the local community. Um gatecoded access. We've talked a lot about the gate tonight.
It's every customer has an individual unique gate code that only they can use to enter the property. Uh that is controlled. I think one of the questions was what if there's a backup a log jam there is a intercom on the gate or a
phone system where if there's someone in the office working they can help the customer access get through the gate if that if the office happens to be closed at that time then there is a call center that can offer the same support as though someone were sitting in the
office. So, there is a pretty quick remedy if someone is having trouble accessing the gates and motion sensor lighting throughout the facility um to keep it safe and secure. And a big one too is security cameras that will be
both inside and outside of the facility at many many angles to keep residents in the neighborhood safe. I mean, crime is very little in this industry. There just isn't much so to speak of. And um cameras certainly help deter anybody
from thinking about entering the the facility and going into a unit that might not be theirs. Also, there'll be individual door alarms so that if you lo if you enter the property, you can only access your unit. You cannot access anyone else's unit.
>> Okay. >> Mr. Tu, um I see you're working with a PowerPoint. >> Oh, we can mark this as A4. Good point. We'll mark this as >> Oh, yes. I'd ask that you do that. >> Okay. So, we'll mark that as A4 and it and we'll it consists of how many sheets, Tracy? >> Uh, 21.
>> 21. >> 21 sheets. Okay. >> Thank you very much. >> No problem. All right. So, why don't we go through the supply and demand? Can you just explain what you analyzed and why you believe that a self- storage facility at this location is needed and how it could serve the community's need
for this type of use? >> Yeah, just to give you a quick overview. Um some of this is not of particular interest to this group I imagine but on in the average uh facility in the US there's 7.83 square feet per capita and
that's how much is pretty much used some markets more than others uh in this market I would say because of the high density and the number of multif family units it would be more than 7.8% 7.8 square feet per capita is desired. Um,
in New Jersey, for example, the average rentable square foot per person is 5.01. A market for self storage, customers are typically going to drive no more than 10 minutes or come within three miles.
That studies within the industry have proven that that's kind of the typical customer and where they're coming from. If you look at this particular site, um, within a 10 minute drive, there are 2.1
square feet of climatized, meaning heated and air conditioning dehumidified units, uh, climatized storage per person. Within three miles of this site, there's 2.81 square feet of climatized self storage. Within one mile of this
site, there is none. Zero. And um there is certainly um some supply within the 3 five mile ring, but we'll look at those in a minute. But this just gives you a snapshot of where they are relative to this particular site. The small circle
is the one mile ring. And as you can see, there's nothing there. Um but here's an example of some of the existing supply within the 10-minute drive of this particular location.
not at all uh exemplary of what this particular project will look like as I think you've probably seen in earlier meetings and we'll probably see again a little later this evening and what we also look at in this business um is what's the demand. So we
know there's limited supply in this market and certainly limited supply of climatized self storage which is what people want today. But why are people using storage? Um, a number of reasons. Decluttering, home renovation, seasonal
gear swap, staging a home for sale, a bridge, bridge the gap between relocating homes, life transitions. This is a big driver of demand, death, divorce, downsizing, and dislocation and document archive.
There are a number of different types of users of self- storage, not all of which are moving a whole household of goods into storage and pulling up in an 18-wheeler with, you know, tons and tons of furniture. A typical customer has a
much smaller base of which they're putting in storage. Um, in this particular facility, we're looking at units that range in size from 25 square feet up to 100 or so square feet. That doesn't hold a whole heck of a lot when
you think about it. Um, >> so just to be clear too, all the data that you're providing, the three miles, the 10 minutes, the supply and demand, that's all you're basing those numbers and basing that analysis on industry standard that's been accepted. Just just
explain that a little bit if you don't mind. >> Yes. So the National Self Storage Association tracks data from its multiple members um thousands of facilities throughout the country. It tracks data based on those facilities and shares that with those of us that
are members of the association. >> All right. And and in addition to that, do you is you does your own experience sort of mirror that analysis? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Um and in fact I mean some of these traits I can attest
to personally, you know, one in three Americans currently use self- storage with another 18% planning to rent in the future. I would say from my professional experience when you're in a high density market with a lot of multif family, it's
more than one in three because these smaller apartments simply don't have space for if you like to canoe on the weekends or if you have a bike or put your storage your Christmas decorations or your offseason clothes, you just don't have room. So, you need that self
storage space. Um, the typical customer, as I mentioned, comes within three miles of a facility. 33% of customers are only willing to drive 10 minutes to a facility. Of the seven facilities within three
miles of this site, four are within a 10-minute drive. And those four are like the pictures I just showed you. Old drive up units, no security,
no very limited lighting, just not secure and not aesthetically pleasing, and certainly don't fit in in the communities in which they may serve. and the the subject uh development that's being proposed, it's in line with the
factors that you recited earlier relating to why people would want to use self- storage. >> Downsizing, maybe, you know, like you said, life transition, maybe having, you know, their offseason clothes or items that they have to that they have to store. >> Yes,
>> that's what we're looking at here. And from a commercial perspective, you're looking at people doc that might have documents that they need to um store things of that nature. >> Yeah. What I wouldn't expect to see based on my professional experience with
both facilities that are have a typical oldfashioned drive up unit versus a facility that has all interior units where you have to either access through a hallway or an elevator or both. The facilities that have the exterior drive
up units are more geared towards the commercial customer and those are the people that visit as much as every day. Um the plumber that stores his parts or the landscape
person who puts his equipment in the unit at night and goes back every morning to get it out to do his work. I don't expect to see that at a facility such as this where it's a little less convenient to access your units once
you're on the property >> and that's based on your experience in the industry. Correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, want to continue through the slides. >> So, C today's customers are looking for certain features of of their facility that are important to them. Um the
security that I mentioned being cameras throughout the facility. uh 24-hour monitoring of those cameras. So, while we have someone staffing the office typically from 8 or 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 pm. The cameras work and people are on
call watching those cameras 24/7 so that if by chance someone comes on the property after gate access hours and they're not supposed to be there, the cameras will pick that up through the motion sensor and they are alerted that
they're not allowed to be on the property and the the authorities are called immediately. um electronic gate systems. As I mentioned, every customer has a unique gate code that they must use in order to get through that gate. And as we talked
about a little bit earlier, if the gate if the customer has forgotten their code or there's a malfunction with the gate, there is a call button and someone will pick up very quickly and remedy the situation and get the customer if they're a valid customer on the property
quickly. um door unit units are individually alarmed. Heating, air conditioning, dehumidification is very important to customers today to keep their belongings safe. I mean, you don't want mildew or things like that. Um and
people are willing, you know, they're going to store somewhere close to where they live or close to their work. It's that simple. They have to have convenience. Um I'm sorry if this is a little small, but um this just shows the demographics
um in the onem, three mile, and then 10 minute drive. And I think what's the most important in this particular slide is the fact that we look, we track carefully the number of renter occupied dwellings in a market to determine if
there really is a demand for self- storage. And the higher the percentage of ren are occupied, the greater the demand for storage. >> I'm sorry. Can you zoom in because I can't I can't read those at all. >> Sorry about that. >> I know it's hard to see. I apologize.
>> I'll try my best. >> Oh, >> yeah. There it is. >> Who's ever said that? Good question. >> There we go. We're getting there. Wh Okay. Is that better? Is that better for everybody? >> Or a little more? >> A little more, please.
>> No problem. No problem. That's why I asked. >> That's better, right? >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Counselor, could I ask you was there re right here? Was there a reason why we don't have this beforehand? Um, I just I
just it's it's not something that we're it's because typically, as Cliff will tell you, when you file applications, file documents with the board or it's things that you're asking approval for, like plans and things that are going to get built. This is more of uh her
personal observations and data. But we're probably not going to finish tonight. So, if the board wants to review it or anybody wants to review it, I can submit it to the board and you can have it on file. >> It would be helpful. >> No problem. That's fine. I ask that you do that. >> That's fine. Yeah, we can email it to uh
to Ryan and to Michael so you have it. >> Okay. >> Very good. Go ahead. >> So, what I was saying is that the percentage of renter occupied is is very telling of whether there's demand for a self-s storage facility in a particular market or not. The threshold that we'd
like to see is 25% minimum u renter occupied in a market. If it's below that, we say, well, there's probably not a big demand for self storage. In this particular case, you can see the numbers far exceed that minimum that we like uh
in order for a a facility to be warranted. Uh in the onem radius, we have 67% renter occupied in this market. In three miles, that's 38%. And in in a 10-minute drive, that's 36%.
So you know this data tells me there is a need for self- storage in this market. >> Okay. >> Um and this just shows you kind of a quick and you know this very well that the density in this market and the rooftops around. We look at rooftops and
there are plenty here. If I saw a bunch of green around, I'd say, "Well, maybe we don't need more storage here." But we don't have storage in this particular close proximity market and we have a lot of rooftops. Um, we also look Oh, now I have to go
smaller here. Demand analysis. So, this will tell me based on current population and based on demand, market demand, what we think this market can support. And
again, you'll get a copy of this. Um, but what this tells me is what today's population is. And then if you take the fact that there's seven square feet on average, and that's a conservative number of
storage per capita in a market. That would say that we have a demand in a onem radius for 108,000 almost 109,000 square feet of self storage in this one mile market. What we have today is zero.
This particular project is net renable square feet is 56,000 roughly give or take a few. >> Right. So the so the 108 is net renable not gross. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. Just to be clear. Go ahead. >> Yes. So we have 56,000 on this
particular project and then there are a couple of other projects two other projects in planning and now whether they come to or not is a whole another question. U actually there's one in this one mile ring and that'sif another 54,000. So, if you look at this particular site
that we're talking about tonight together with this other possible location, you're talking um you'll have 110,000 square feet of self storage if both projects continue forward. That
would give you 7.08 square feet per capita of self storage in a onem ring. The national average is over seven. And I again based on my experience in a dense market like this,
it's closer to eight and above. >> Okay. >> And let's talk a little bit. This has come up about the daily activity at a facility. And this data is taken. The self storage association polls its
members some 50,000 facilities throughout the country and tracks the average number of trips per day to a facility by hour by day. So what this tells me here is that on average for the
for the whole week it's 11 uh trips per day. And unlike a prior witness, that's 11 in and 11 out. So it's 11 visits, if you will. >> So TW, so that
>> 22 max is what this is telling you based on trips. This is visits >> in a day. >> In a day, right? And you know, I firsthand can tell you I've sat at many facilities for many of days and wished
for more traffic because it's kind of boring when you're sitting there waiting for the cars to come and it's quiet. Um, you just don't see a lot. Um, and I we'll get into, you know, kind of some of the reasoning behind that in the next visit here, the next slide. So, how
often do people come to their facility? First of all, >> and again, this is based on industry data. industry data. Yes. >> Okay. >> 12% of customers visit more than once a week and sometimes that is to pay their
bill. It's not necessarily to move in or out. They come at least once a month to pay their bill if they're not paying online. Um 18% of customers visit once a week. The same number, 18% visit once every
two weeks. 28% of the typical customer visits once a month. 14% visit three to six times a year. And 10% visit less than once a year. >> Less than
>> less than three times a year. I'm sorry. It's okay. >> I'm sorry. Yes. Less than three times a year. That's not uncommon. um especially in a facility where you don't have a lot of commercial customers which I don't anticipate there being because of the
nature of this facility and not having outside drive up units and during lease up which is one of the busier times at a self storage facility as you're filling up your units. If we
have 378 units, which is what we've mentioned earlier this evening, your typical occupancy, the ideal occupancy of a facility is 90%. So that would give you 340 units that would be rented when you're full
and it takes 36 months to get to that 90% occupancy goal. >> And that's been your experience? >> Absolutely. That is the standard, the gold standard in the business. >> And that's and that's in the northeast. >> Yes. >> As well. >> Yes. So based on the math, you're
talking about nine rentals per month. >> And that's if everyone rented in person, which they don't. Nowadays, it's over 60% of rentals are conducted online. So that's one less trip to the facility.
Um, so even if everyone rented in person, you're talking less than one rental per day. Um, most people spend 15 to 30 minutes renting a unit and two hours to move into a unit. The average
visitor is there for 15 minutes once they've moved in. So, >> and again, I know I'm saying this over and over again, but I think it's important. The data says that from the self- storage industry and all these publications and reports, but your own
experience doing this confirms this data. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> 100%. >> Okay. So we went on to look a little further at this particular facility based on the average number of visits to a facility
and based on this particular size unit with this with 378 units. You can see here we took the the math the data from the frequency to visits uh once a week more than once a week once a week once
every two weeks once a month. And then we said, okay, if you total all that up times the percentage, so you take three times a year, 10% of those people equals 34 renters divided by 180 days. I'm on
the last little line here. Um it's 0.018 per um per hour visits. Um, and typically a facility has opening hours from gate hours from 6:00 am to 10
p.m. That is typical. It's not necessarily been determined that this facility would have that. If anything, we would have less than that. I mean, the maximum is 6:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. So, based on being open 16 hours a day,
you would have 1.47 47 visits per hour each business day. >> All right. And let's just let's just make this is all math and that's and this is helpful. So 1.47 visits per hour each business day. That's the average.
You might have more in a peak hour. You might have zero early in the morning. It's that's the average. So if you multiply that over the 14 hours that you're open, you get about 20 to 22 visitors per day.
>> Yes. and and that's ambitious. Um you don't usually get that much traffic at a facility. >> All right. And that's even so the the analysis that was done by the traffic engineer per it in your opinion was was conservative. >> Yes, it was. >> Okay.
>> Yes. Based on industry data and based on my spending many many hours at many many facilities throughout this northeast. And it's interesting the the data that was collected by the traffic engineer at the other facilities which are a little bit larger actually are somewhat
correspond with the data that you're presenting. Fair. >> Yeah. It's you know it's not too dissimilar. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um yes. So that's kind of all my formal slides if you will. Um, but I think, you
know, it's fair to say, oh, I heard a lot of concern about big trucks and trucks and things like that. I I think um it's important to note that people these units are not huge. You can't store a whole house full of goods in one
of these units. You couldn't fit the goods from an 18-wheeler or a 40ft truck into one of these units. It it would just be very, very difficult. you have to rent multiple units to do that. And quite frankly, customers aren't going to
do that when they can't drive right up the to the facility and dump their stuff out. >> So again, I I I I didn't want the traffic engineer to deal with this as much as I wanted you to sort of answer this. The the the narrative about there being a lot of trucks coming, I think
what you're saying is is is just not the case. Correct. It's not the case because a truck comes when you move your items in and when you move your items out. If if you're moving a lot of stuff, but we're not moving a lot of stuff most of the time here. Mo, I mean, I would say a
pickup truck or a van is going to be what you typically see. There might be an occasional small U-Haul box truck, but I don't envision a large truck. I just don't see it based on the characteristics of this
facility and this market with so many small multif family dwellings in this market that people don't have huge homes where they're storing, you know, a whole house full of furniture. We're not going to have the contractor customer that
stores his lawn equipment or, you know, whatever plumbing supplies, that kind of thing. You're just not going to see that here based on the nature, the physical characteristics of this particular facility and of this market. >> Okay. Okay. That that concludes my
directive. Tracy, we're happy to answer any questions the board may have. >> Board have any questions. Mrs. >> Yeah, I have a few questions. Thank you for coming out. I think this was great. Um, so when you say um your your particular
clientele, so the clientele that'll be coming here, is it safe to assume that, you know, it's not going to be somebody that's moving out of a, you know, a four bedroomedroom, 33,000 foot home, right? It's it's more or less going to be somebody that's in a twobedroom,
onebedroom apartment. one of these apartments right around here that you see that I drove through and saw and was amazed at the the volume of them. Yeah. I don't anticipate a a big fraction of people coming from these
big homes. Um those people typically have a garage or a basement where they can store their stuff. Um but the apartment dwellers don't. And most of these apartments don't even offer storage anymore. You know, in the old days, they had a basement with storage and lockers that they don't build them
like that anymore. They don't make enough money to provide that. >> So, in your in your opinion, and since you've been in the industry for so long, how how can a storage facility like this support a community like ours?
Because, as I briefly touched on, you know, people that live in an apartment, let's say a one-bedroom apartment, but they like to go canoeing on the weekends, and they don't have a place to keep that canoe at their apartment, they may rent a 5x5
and put their canoe, you know, vertically in the unit and access it when they were going out. or um the young lady who has a closet full of clothes from moving out of her parents house into a small apartment and she
can't fit everything. She may say, "I'm going to put my winter clothes in storage during the summer and vice versa." or someone that has no room to store their Christmas decorations um in their apartment or their small
town home. They would be the typical customer that I would expect to see at a facility of this nature >> and as just to answer just to keep going on Mr. Daniel's question and that's why your analysis was important as to the demand and in this in this region.
Correct. And that's why you did >> the analysis of the one mile, the three mile, the 10 minutes. You you you looked at the inventory or lack thereof. >> There isn't. There really isn't. >> And that's to go to and that's the the point that we were trying to make in terms of there's a need for it in the community. Correct.
>> Right. And what does exist in the three mile radius is a far inferior quality, very limited climate controlled space. People don't want that anymore. They want convenience and they want climate control and they want a lot of security.
Those older facilities can't offer that and this does and they're too far. There, you know, is it there's some that are five, six miles away. People aren't going to go that far for a facility. the data, you know, the industry data
would tell you that they come from three miles or maximum 10-minute drive. >> And you had mentioned that they so they're not going to be coming with bigger truck. I mean, because that's the that's a concern, right? I mean, it's a >> and I understand that because that is
kind of the image that we have of self storage, but over time self storage has evolved into a necessity to a convenience. So, in the old days, you know, when I started in this business, you really
only used storage when you were moving. You put your whole house in storage and you kept it there for a few months and then when you moved into your new house, you took it all out. It's it there's far less of that today because people have
gotten more used to the fact that they can use storage as a convenience and not just a necessity. So things that they use, they want access to but just don't have room for. >> Okay. >> Does that answer your concern?
>> You have a number on how long these units are rented for? Like a personal rental for five years? >> Yeah. The the average length of stay is 18 and a half months. Now I can tell you personally I have I've seen facilities older. The longer
you've been open, the longer the length of stay. I I have customers that have been with me 15 years. You know, the typical customer moves in and thinks they're going to be there three months, but they're always there
longer. That's just human nature because once you're in, it's not always very convenient to go empty it out, right? You don't want to waste a Saturday moving your things and renting a van to go pick up your goods and get them out of there. So, you just leave them. And
people don't go that often. The contractors are the ones that go more than once a week. And I again I just don't envision based on the nature of this market and the dwell and the concentration of multif family
you know apartments and the fact that this facility is all interior units. I don't envision a a base of commercial res of commercial customers. It might be a doctor's office that
stores old papers, but they're not going very often to get them. They're just storing them well because they have to until, you know, one day they close up shop or sell their business and go empty them out. >> Uh, I just have a quick question about
your You're kind of wearing a couple hats. You don't want to be an expert. I understand you're not an expert. Um >> yeah, I would I would say just Mr. Alvarez on that issue, she's not a licensed professional like an engineer or architect or somebody like that. So
we profered her as a fact witness with substantial personal knowledge in this industry. >> Okay. Um do you have any background in in economics? You talked about like a a market market demand and such. Do you have any >> Well, I have Yes. First of all, I have
an MBA in finance and economics. Um, and you know, I've been I do a lot of operations and development work throughout my career where I look at supply and demand. It's a big part of our industry and in development of our industry and I've been involved in the
development of over 200 facilities throughout my career. >> Thank you. I appreciate the background. Um, have have you have you been at facilities that have a similar population density in a similar
geographic restriction as Somerville? >> Yes. >> Can you name them? >> Well, I've been to a lot in New York >> in New Jersey particular. New Jersey. Um, recently I have not, you know, I'd have to go back and look at my travel logs to see because there's been so many
over the time, but off the top of my head, I cannot name one >> particular one for you. >> In your analysis of your one one mile, three miles in 10 minutes. You looked at the growth and the potential growth and what
we are where we are now. What do you think the market will bear for number of storage facilities say for the one mile, three mile, 10 minutes? >> Yeah, we can go back to that because this will tell you. Well, actually I have it here. Hold on. Give me one
second. It's in here. I got it. I think based on population and growth that we can wrong wrong page. Maybe I didn't print it out. I'm sorry.
Uh yeah, I'm sorry I don't have but I can speak to it um a little more generically. I think that based on this facility that we're talking about tonight and the other one that's potentially out there in the development
pipeline that's within a onem radius, the supply that supply will meet the current demographic demand. The demand Yeah, you have the current demand. >> Yeah, but what I don't have is the square footage. >> Okay. >> So, that's why I was looking for it. I
thought I did, but I I don't have it on here. But based on the study that I did, the market would still be slightly under supplied if both of these two facilities came on board. Now, I don't know that we
could handle three or four more, but I think we can easily handle two, if not three, new facilities. And I'm not talking about a 300,000 square foot building. I'm talking about, you know, 50 to 60,000, maybe a little more.
>> And when you say that, you mean net renable. >> Net rentable. Yes. >> Okay. >> Because there's a big loss factor. You know, it's typically 70% of your gross building is net renable. >> You're excluding hallways, >> right? You're excluding hallways,
mechanicals, elevators, office equip office, >> that kind of thing. And when we're talking about demand, you're referring to to get to the magic number of 7.5 square feet per person per capita. >> That's that's >> that's what you're basing the math on.
>> Yes. And I >> demand >> correct. And I believe that this market could support a little bit more than that based on the the percent of renter occupy. >> Okay. Okay. So, it goes back to the chairman's comment is you just take the
population within one mile and you would just divide it by the net ratable net uh square footage on the buildings and that would crank out a number of >> right and and but I also I can if I had it with me I can take it a step further
and say we could support 50,000 more square feet and if I recall that number after the two projects that are this one and the other one that's being thrown around out there that we could still support an additional 30 or 40,000
square feet of net renable space in the onem market. >> Got it. Thank you. The question I have is um people running a business. Is there any data out of people running a business out of a self storage because it's climate controlled? >> Yeah. Well, first of all, there's no
power in the units. >> Well, that's Jason. Is that true? Because last meeting I thought we were providing receptacles in each unit. >> What do you mean? >> That's not my understanding. >> What do What do you mean receptacles? >> Outlets. >> Outlets, >> electrical outlets.
>> The last meeting there was discussion there will be outlets. >> I think that I think that that was I think if that if that was said then that I'll let Tracy speak to it. Would there be outlets in the in the uh units? >> It's I've never seen outlets in units in my
entire career. So if that was the case, then that was misspoken and there would be no outlets in the units. >> Your you you can't control what people are doing if there's an outlet in there. Your power bill would be through the roof. It becomes a fire hazard if people
leave lights on with a couch adjacent to the light. You don't put power in in a unit. It's it's unheard of. >> And that would deter people from living in the unit, obviously. >> Correct. >> Yeah. I mean, we can go through that in a second, too, if that's what the board wants, but we would agree as a condition
then that that's the case if the board wanted that to be expressed, but you can't live in the you can't live in the units. >> No, >> you can't run a business from the units. >> No. >> And also, PE board members and other people had questions about you can't store hazardous materials. No, the lease, first of all, the lease is very
clear as to what you are allowed to store. And we all know that sometimes people break rules, but the managers who work there, part of their daily routine is to walk the property multiple times a day. And while they're walking the
property, they like to be nosy. They're ch they're they're tasked with being a bit nosy. And when doors are open, they look and see what's going on in there. And they also get to be very friendly with the customers. So they kind of
know. And if they suspect anything is off, we have the right to ask people to leave with little or no notice. If it's a hazardous situation, we can ask them to leave immediately. If it's some other type of issue, we can give them 14 days
notice and they have to be out. Thank you. >> This particular facility is the particular storage units don't have a digital entry. >> The units themselves. No, there's no that's that's a good question. Yes, sometimes now we're doing digital locks
on the doors. So, that's to be determined. I think that's something the developer would certainly be amendable to. It's becoming more standard in the industry instead of the oldfashioned, you know, padlock type of lock. Um a digital lock is becoming more prevalent. >> Industry wide. What's your rate of entry
as as an owner? Can you just enter a unit or do you have to give notice? >> No, you only in extreme emergencies. It's in the lease. It's explicitly stated that if there is kind of a fire hazard or a hazard, we can enter the the
premises. But you know, 99 n out of 100 times that's not necessary. and we ask people to come and meet us um if we need to access their unit, but it's pretty rare that we would need to access a unit. >> So, you were saying that the average uh
duration of a rental was 18 months. >> 18 and a half months. >> 18 and a half months. >> So, that kind of runs a little counter to what you were saying earlier that people store kayaks. >> That's how long they stay with us renting. >> Okay. You know, some people stay three months,
other I've had customers stay 10, 15 years. That's just the national average. >> Yeah. But it it's it runs a little counter to the idea that the people use this or maybe it doesn't run counter, but the idea that people are using this as a tempor as a place to store their
kayaks. >> Well, I mean, >> they they'll do that. It's But if it if the average is 18 months, they're storing their kayaks for two seasons and then giving up. >> I mean, these young a lot of young people move a lot. I mean, you know, this how long do they what's the average length of stay of a an apartment? I you
know, some of these newer apartments, >> I I don't have the answer to that, but I would say to you that my experience, having worked with national operators, is that it is not uncommon, especially for the younger generation, to store
their outdoor gear and act and and go to it, you know, on a fairly regular basis. And sometimes they stay longer than that at that 18 and a half months. So that you know >> and then you were saying you don't have any particular experience in New Jersey
of facilities in similar down time. >> Not in recent times. I I have several years ago but I can't remember exactly where it was. So I I would rather say I don't have the experience than say I can't remember where because I don't remember where. And you but you said
there were some um more urban units in New York that you have experienced. >> I have experience with stores in Staten Island, all five burrows in Man, including Manhattan, >> but but none of them in like downtown kind of areas. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Or Okay.
>> In Manhattan. >> Okay. Can you tell a story about how that works in that situation? >> Well, I guess I guess Mr. Flores, what's your what's your question in terms of what you want to know in terms of the difference between the the what do you
want to know specifically about the downtown? Maybe she could opine or give you an answer to that. >> How a storage facility in a walkable community works versus the previous testimony about a facility in a on a
highway. So my question is how what like what what are the dynamics of a correct storage facility in a more urban or more >> can I ask it this way if that's okay? Are there any differences >> with the analysis if this is in a more
walkable community? Does it function any differently? Is there any unique characteristics in an area that's walkable or in a downtown? Is that kind of what you're asking? >> Fair. Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, the difference is, for example, the photos I showed you of the other facilities, they're not in a
downtown urban area. They they attract more trucks, they attract more contractors, and they attract a shorter, you know, I mean, a longer duration tenant. The commercial tenant typically stays a little bit longer than the residential
tenant, but a an urban location, people walk there. People don't typically walk with one box to a facility. They're going to save their e effort and take multiple boxes to their facility. Um there's the access is not
as broad to get into a facility. If you are, you know, in a suburban area, you might have 30 foot wide drive aisles. You don't have that in an urban location. Um, and you have all interior
units such as we're talking about with this particular facility. Um, but in terms of the, you know, day-to-day how it functions, it's it's pretty similar. I guess the access is different. Um, >> but you your your point and I think it's
it was a good question in terms of it it's it's geared more towards the residential customer versus the commercial customer. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Okay. Considering this I call this proposed of facility
generation two of a of a storage facility. What do you see an exodus of people who are renting in say Bridgewater down the street? I I rented there 30 30 years ago. Would you see an exodus of people taking their stuff out
of that facility and moving it to here? >> No. Sure. Um people are very reluctant to move from one facility to another. I mean it takes a half a day or a day of their time on a precious Saturday. Um
they have to sometimes rent a bigger bigger vehicle or borrow someone's vehicle to move their belongings. Um, and you're really moving from one box to another. And there's no difference in the unit, if you will, except they
better security and better lighting. >> More bells and whistles. It has more bells and whistles, but it's rare for people to just up and move from one location to another unless there's something dramatically wrong with their
current facility such as a breakin or, you know, um feeling less than secure um or the rates keep going up so much. There is an operator in our business
who's notorious for giving very high rent increases. Not the one who's going to be operating this facility. Um, and people get tired of it. >> But, but and also to your point earlier, people stay within their mile radius and their 10-minute drive.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's convenience. It's all about convenience. >> Well, what would be the usable life of one of these first generation um facilities? >> The older ones. I mean, you know, I've seen some that are 30, 40 years, you
know, as long as they're wellmaintained. Um, you can put a new roof on, you can repave the asphalt, you can, you know, put new lighting in, you can put better security. There are things you can do to
upgrade and and most good owners and operators will do that to keep their asset in good shape. Following up on that, with this kind of facility, what's the lifespan for one of these one of these types that we're talking about?
>> I mean, again, it's it's the same. I mean, because if you maintain the facility, as I certainly expect this developer to do, and I know he will. Um, and the operator who will be operating it for him, they're tasked with doing
that as well. the so the owner and the operator work in conjunction. It can have a long lifespan. >> Tracy, do we know the operator? I thought we didn't know the operator. >> Well, there's I think there's a couple of options and I I don't want to say who, but I know the one that I mentioned
that raises rates so much is not in contention. >> Good. Thank you. >> Do you allow motorized vehicles in the storage? >> Mo uh no >> there's no boat storage. There's no car storage. that that's and that's because
there's no door. There's no roll door >> access. They can't access it. So, >> I was looking at vintage motorcycles. >> Oh, >> I mean, you know, it's rare. You have to have proof of insurance and you have to have a valid license, but again, because of the nature of having to go down a
hallway or up an elevator, it's going to be very rare. >> So, a couple questions. Uh what are all these people doing now since there's no storage in our area? >> They're busting at the seams most likely or some of them are going out of their
way to one of these older crummier facilities because that's their only option. >> Okay. U in Mike's report they were talking about public bathrooms. They and I think it's on record that the public will not be able to use the bathrooms.
>> Yeah. Just to be clear, good point. The the the bathrooms are just for the customers. Correct. >> Correct. You have to you have to have your code to get there. >> All right. And then in your experience with this, how many employees will be on site? >> One and a half to two full-time
equivalents. >> All right. And so one and a half to two and a half or two. Why the need for a dumpster >> for the office trash? Um, bathroom trash.
You don't, you know, you almost don't need it, but you have it there in case someone leaves a box behind, you can throw it in there. >> Well, I thought I thought it wasn't allowed, >> but the the manager would do that. The manager is the only one who can access the the the dumpster, right?
>> The the the clients cannot. It's behind locking key. >> The dumpster is. >> Yes. >> Okay. the uh you mentioned that the cameras and the audio who does the monitoring of that >> the management company has an a either
their own in-house call center if you will most of the management companies have an in-house call center and they staff it 247 and respond to you know various requests for my gate code isn't working or you know if
someone wants to rent a unit after hours. They call that number and they can rent a unit after hours. But it's manned by a call center operated by the op, you know, the the management company. >> All right. And and do they monitor the cameras? >> Yes, they do.
>> They do. And they're they're 247. >> Yes, they are. >> And they're taped so you can go back and take a look at it. >> 100%. So the the question about uh most people you say 60% order their units by the computer.
>> All right. >> If somebody wanted to store an electric bike and they come after the place is closed, nobody's going to see them. They'll be on camera. >> They'll be on camera >> and they'll take their bike up and they'll put it into the storage unit.
>> Will they get caught? Most likely they will get caught because someone's watching their activity when they move in. We can see what they're doing via the cameras >> when they move in. But let's say they they do it at I think you said we're open until 10 o'clock at night. >> Yeah. But the cameras are still going
>> and so they have somebody that will look at the cameras all the time. Anytime there's motion after 6:00 when the office is closed, >> they the the call center is alerted by the motion and they will look at the camera.
>> Right. And then you said that the manager does a lot of walking throughout the day. So if somebody has their unit open, they would look inside, but you don't have any ability of going into the unit. We do not have the right to go
into a unit unless we have cause to believe there's some substance being stored that is illegal or against the lease. >> All right. And I had one more. You say that one in uh one in three
people need self storage >> are using it. Yes. >> Are using it. >> Okay. All right. It it would be good. I'm I'm going to be excited to look at your >> Yeah, we'll get it to you before we That's fine. >> So, thank you. >> Sure. >> Anyone else? >> Yeah. And what I could also do if if the
board wants um the other exhibits, too. I know you were more interested in this one, but I can just have make sure all the exhibits are on file if everybody wants to just take a look at them. >> Okay. >> Anyone else from the board have any questions of Mrs.
>> Oh, I I have one more. So you're this far along in the project and it sound as if we still don't know the number of units because you have to do a demographic study. >> You don't you look at if for example you
pick Cubesmart to operate your facility. Cubsmart looks at data in this market, their closest facilities with similar demographics, and says, "Okay, we rent a lot of 5 by5s in this type of market.
So, we think you need a few more." But they base it on demographics and what similar facilities in their portfolio where they have actual data that shows the size and the demand. and they'll say, "Okay, based on
what we h the data we have, we think this should be your optimal unit mix." >> When you mean five by five, you mean five foot by five foot by five foot, correct? >> Five by five feet. Yes, sir. >> All right. Now, because you mentioned dimensions a couple times and I just
want to make sure that's clear. >> Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. Five feet by five feet. >> Thank you. Anyone else on the board? Anyone from the audience have any questions on the testimony Mrs. L's just
gave? >> Hi, I'm Mary Hajes. I live at 14 South Clark um in Somerville. Um I' like to make sure that um what you've told us and what we've heard with the other experts that I've got
this tied together. Um, we've heard that the storage unit would present a lower traffic impact for us, uh, compared to the uses that it's already zoned for, such as a daycare or a medical center.
Um, we've heard that the study that you've done is is looking to place storage units within one to three miles of the high rental community.
Do you have any information as to how far away someone is willing to rent a storage unit if it is not available in where where they're moving to? Because I don't think that we're choosing our apartment
based on the access to a rental unit. >> No, we're not. I would agree with that. But we're choosing our rental our storage unit based on access to our apartment. Y >> the inverse, right? >> Y >> So people again are typically the
typical customer will go three miles or 10 minutes. >> Okay. >> Does that >> Yeah. >> Does that answer the question? Maybe I'm confused. >> No, no, it No, it does help. You know, and it um
>> please speak into the microphones, both of you. >> Sure. Sorry. >> Hello. So, we talked about what the the area is currently zoned for. It would be a medical center, daycare center type of business.
>> Finish your question. We talked about the traffic impact versus the zoning or versus the storage unit versus what it's zoned for and the fact that a building a medical care or day or
daycare center would be the opposite type of structure where a smaller building more parking. So we have not spoken about or we have spoken about the value that a storage
unit brings to the community and you have said that the value is to our rental community where we are much more than just a rental community. We have a lot of longtime residents here. >> Question.
>> Yeah. That would not benefit from it. Um, one of the I'll save it for a statement to >> Yeah, there'll be time >> to the board. >> There'll be time for statements. >> Yeah, but I have clarified my information. Okay. >> Well,
>> I will be back. >> If I may, I would just add it's not just apartment dwellers that use storage. >> Correct. >> People are renovating their homes may use storage. >> Um, people that >> or we just use our garage or our friend's garage. It's a very low value, right? I think
the I think the testimony was just >> in the in when there's a higher density of rentals, that per square footage number goes up a little bit of the on need versus if there wasn't as much rental, but there was still a def a large deficit either way.
>> Yeah, there's a there's a need for medical centers and daycarees, too. >> That's not before us right now. Well, he commented, so I said it. >> Yeah, I I I we didn't do that analysis. is we just do the analysis on the application. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Thank you.
>> I just wanted to I'm sorry. My name's Elizabeth Eisinger. Um I live at 25 Mercer Street here in Somerville. I just wondered if you could put back up the population density. Uh you said that we had uh in a onem radius we had around
15,000 people >> and three thou and just outside of it was six Let me let me pull that up. Sorry, I'm having trouble. This isn't my computer, so I'm a little struggling a little bit here. Let's see.
Is this it? I think this one's >> Yes. >> Can you Can you zoom in? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'll let you. >> Just give me one second. >> I'm used to a mouse, so pardon me. >> All right. Go ahead. >> Is that help? >> So, yeah. So you're saying that there's
um 15 15,000 people live within one mile a radius of one mile of here >> and s within 3 miles there's 63,000 people. I'm just a little concerned about where you're getting the numbers
because all of Bridgewater is 46,000 people and all of Somerville is 15 is around 15,000 people. So, I'm wondering where all these people are and where you got your data. >> The data is from the US Census. >> Okay.
>> And it's a circle around this the site. So, I don't >> radius. >> It's the actual radius. Okay. And um where did you get the data of 67% of Somerville's renters? >> Same thing. The US census. >> All right. Okay. Thank you.
>> Sure. Hi, Scott Schwitzer from 8way in Somerville. Um, staying with the concentric circles, one at mile and three miles from U 20 West End. I'm just curious. I one of your slides you had the two circles. You don't need to find
it, but um I think that what it was pointing out was within those radiuses, which are kind of the sweet spot of how far people want to go to their unit. was further up. >> Um, >> there we go. >> There it is. Um, yeah. So, those dots
represent storage units. >> Yes. >> Within those. Okay. So, >> so the red circle is one mile, the green is three, and the blue is actually five miles, but okay. We don't really that's >> So, the two tighter circles, the one
mile and three mile. Um, I'm just curious. Maybe you're not the right person to ask, but that's where the storage units are. I'm just curious if um within those same radiuses, are there other potential lots for this that are already zoned for
storage units that don't involve knocking down historical house and fitting it into an area where it's not zoned? Because that that that big cir that green circle it goes all the way out probably to Home Depot by the um Somerset Patriots Stadium goes out 22 to
White House. >> So So there's actually case law on what you're talking about >> and we don't have to disprove that there's no other site that's suitable for it. We just have to show particularly suitability for our specific site. So, and obviously our planner has to go through that and all
the testimony that we give before that gives the our planner the foundational you know evidence and data to provide that um testimony but it's it goes to the particular suitability of this location. >> Okay. >> I understand your point but but I just wanted to respond.
>> Thank you. >> Um Chris Fogerty 25 North D Avenue. Um I back up to the um to the area. I can see all the the place from my back porch. Um, we we talked we discussed about this type of unit. We don't have a lot of
information about this being in a residential area. You couldn't think of any that you were in recently in New Jersey. We talked about the traffic um impact. >> Well, I think I think the question was more about a specific like downtown area, not not res not near residential.
I think that was the question, right? It was more about the downtown area that walkability. So, so this is you know residential downtown. So, in in line with that discussion, one of the other impacts is noise and you know the question kind of came
to me that you showed up it's a 75,000 square foot climate controlled so you have large commercial AC running. >> We have that's easy. >> That is not something that Mrs. Zel's testified. Well, no, no, but but you
don't you'll normally have something like this right next to single family >> but we have to comply. We we we close at 10:00 a.m. 10 p.m. and open at 6. We actually have to comply with the NJD noise requirements. And if there's a
noise requirement within the burrow or a noise requirement within the county, we have to comply. There's no there's no deviation from that. >> Okay. So bordering to a resident different requirement correcting to commercial >> and you'd have to comply with that. You'd have to comply with that. >> You're 100% right. You'd have to comply
with that. >> Okay. So that will be >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> All right. Thank you. >> Suzanne Confer North Meadow Street. Um so this actually I'm want to ask a little bit more about this analysis and this slide. >> You talking about the circle? Yeah.
Okay. All right. Go ahead. >> So, uh, you know, again, professional, professional, respect the depth of the study, respect that, you know, you you've laid it all out in great visuals. I'm a little concerned to echo some of the other comments before about the data
quality here because if I Google self storage near me, there's more like 13 within five miles and I have them on my phone. You know, it's cube smart extra storage something. But we are talking about three miles, not five. >> No, five. But you didn't show them in the five miles.
>> We are. But >> I know. But what I'm saying is there's a large number. You know, you're talking about the analysis of what the market can bear. So that's part one. Okay. First off, you're not showing that there's an additional five to seven units between the three and five miles.
The other thing you're not mentioning is that in addition to the projects that's in the works for this holding company, I believe there's two additional projects from this holding company that are in the works in Hillsboro and Bridgewwater. >> Right. >> And there's an additional two on top of
that that are being put forth in front of Bridgewwater that are reasonably close within driving here. So, I want to know if the analysis you did took into account the fact that there's potentially six additional self-s storage units coming into the market at the same time competing for the renter
business. >> Yes. In in let me two parts. This circle we don't show the five miles because this is a three mile market. >> I I you've made that clear. >> Okay. So, >> but I'm just saying that people >> I understand >> where can drive three miles can drive
five. >> But she No. Well, hold on a second. She's she she she's doing it. >> She's doing it based on 30 years of experience being in the industry. So based on what she's saying, and this is her opinion, you you're obviously entitled to to yours, that that would be
irrelevant to her analysis because in her do managing and operating over 200 facilities or more, this is what you look at. Correct? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So now answer >> and to your other question. Yes, I have taken into account the fact that there are other facilities in development in
10-minute drive with those other facilities. It was on my slide that showed >> one of them within two miles. >> I'm sorry. >> At least one of them is within two miles. >> I understand and I have that. I faced that. >> So, and that is done in the analysis that you showed us in terms of population and what the market could
bear. >> Yes. >> Because this does give our town a situation where I this is actually third question for you. When these units reach the end of life, what happens to them? Like what's the next phase? Like sometimes a house in our town might
become a doctor's office or a duplex, right? Somebody moves out. >> Um a school might become a communal learning center. We had that happen in my old town. School wasn't needed. They made it into like a community learning adult education center. What happens to a self-s storage unit
when it no longer has a profitable or useful life? >> I don't think we could answer that. It's speculative. She indicated that if you maintain and properly do that, these can operate for decades upon decades. She said that she seen >> 20 to 30 years was what she said. >> That's as long as I've been in the business. I can't speak to what
>> so you don't have any reference point in terms of history of units you've dealt with colleagues that you know we provided a lot of incidental examples to different things you know and I you know definitely appreciate people setting the tone and you know that it's not going to be like that. it'll be nice type of
businesses or storing their paperwork. But on that same note, what anecdotal information do you have about what happens to these buildings when they reach end of life? >> In my experience, I have not seen a re a redo. I've seen them torn down and
rebuilt and that's probably a handful in my career. >> Okay. Um, and >> that's the best I could answer. I'm sorry. >> Okay. Last question and let the people talk. Um, so do you have data on how fully rented the other 13 or 14 that are
within five miles of this area? >> No, the operators do not share that data. >> They don't share that. So, we have no way of knowing if those are currently competing and are at 50% each or if they are busting at the seams. >> Well, I can tell you that a facility that's over 3 years old is typically 90%
occupied. >> Typically, but we don't know that. And the reason I emphasize this again >> actual data >> and I understand why it's it's confidential company data people have. I'm emphasizing this again because we as a town are being asked to take a risk
>> in allowing a variance on the use >> in a business that we don't typically have or have experience with in our town. So we I would think it behooves us to be really really really sure before we allow basically an essentially
singlepurpose very large building to be constructed. >> These are these are questions. You're making commentary. Okay. What's the question? >> So that my question was you don't have any information about what happens after these are done. No, but what I can tell
you is even if they were all empty, >> the market data suggests that we could support them. >> Okay. Sorry, I do have one more question. How much garbage per foot gets produced from these? >> Very little. >> How much? >> People don't leave garbage. >> But how much?
>> I I mean what, an inch per foot? I I I there's >> But we don't know how much garbage is going to be generated. >> What? But >> she's already answered that. She she actually she actually said >> it really isn't because they don't have access to the >> actually asked and answered. So >> okay do it. I you know thank you
appreciate your time. >> Mr. Tu >> I have a question. I'm not questioning your witness's veracity in any way but she has made reference to certain information or documents that she doesn't have on hand
uh or has cited from them. Could they be provided to the board as well? When you say spe Oh, you mean when she was talking about the square footages? >> Yeah, you know, I I don't have it with me or something. >> I can. >> Yeah, that's fine. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, we can I can we could do is when I submit all of this slide,
>> I'll make sure that's included. >> We can include that. That's fine. >> I'd appreciate no problem. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions for Mrs. Elsa? >> Hi, David Lang 18 came in place. What kind of retail sales does a storage unit
typically generate >> for boxes and locks and things like that? >> I guess that's what they >> sell boxes and locks uh $1,000 a month at most. >> So it's a relatively small amount compared to overall revenue which
correct. Okay. Compared to the I don't know the answer to this. What is the comparison to the designated uses that are currently allowed for this type facility? whether it's a uh daycare or a doctor's office if they generate much more retail sales. Uh another question
is um what about in terms of uh employment? What's the how many people do they typically employ? >> One to two employees. >> Well well that just just I think he's asking more like globally like you that's how many you're saying >> at the facility >> or at the facility but like just in general because there could be different
shifts different people per week. That's that's it. One to two. Okay. >> Yeah. So I >> I just want to make sure I was answering. Yeah. So one to two versus what the intended what the currently approved uses are for you know there'd be you talked earlier about saying there'd be 20 employees and uh
>> that's what the traffic engineer was saying. >> Okay. Yeah. So there'd be far more employment with another another type of use versus a storage facility. >> 100% you're 100% correct about that. And um third with speaking of the uh to
the design of the facility, they're very specifically designed. So you stated you've never seen a uh a storage facility, particularly something of this type, three stories designed for to be modular that could be converted. >> I have not seen that.
>> Okay. >> Not in my career. No. Do you do you know as a as a corporate executive when you're looking in terms of I'm looking at the value of this site, how do they rate that relative to let's say another kind of more convertible office space?
>> I I don't know if she's she's just speaking on self storage. I don't know how she can really answer that. >> I she's an officer for a company in a conglomerate and so you should be able to look at a spreadsheet and see what the value of the real estate >> I I don't but I also don't know how it's relevant. We're just we're talking about land use. which we're not really talking about.
>> Well, in terms of conversion, it speaks to the other person. >> I didn't think that I didn't think that was relevant either. >> Okay. >> We we tried to just answer it just because it was asked, but yeah. >> Thank you. >> I would sustain the objection.
>> Natalia Clement, one is Summit Street. Um, am I understanding correctly that your data that you're basing your assumptions on is a national data? >> So, you have to sorry, you have to answer yes or no in the moment. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Yes. I'm sorry. >> Thank you. Um, so we basic, so it would
include uh mega policies such as New York City, Atlanta, Boston, right? It's we kind of equating that with the small historic downtown needs. >> It would also include Annapapolis, Maryland, which is a small downtown
historic district. It includes a variety of different types of markets. >> Right. Okay. um are we making any difference? So we're looking at some kind of um regional data that's more applicable to uh some community makeup
>> in the supply and the demand that's all market driven but in terms of some of the other data I presented such as the average uh number of visits per day that's a national average
>> right okay um so you said that you have experience working in 200 100 storage facilities and been to 400 storage facilities. Um are any of those facilities located in a similar um location where you have a
small historic very walkable downtown area? I know that Mr. Flores asked you about downtown but he was asking about New York City which is a very different it's completely different animal from where we are. >> I understand. >> So there any storage facilities that you
have experienced located in a similar area? >> Um The best I can come up with off the top of my head is a city like Annapapolis, Maryland. I don't know if we have ever been. >> I've been to Annapolis, Maryland. It is not comparable to Summerville. It is probably five times larger than we are.
>> Downtown is pretty small. >> We are 2.5 miles all along, you know. >> Well, then I guess the answer is no. >> Okay. Thank you. I have another question. uh when you were studying uh local market and how many storage facilities
we have around, have you looked at our uh new modern rental units communities? >> I'm sorry. What? >> Have you looked at the rental communities that we have around >> and looked at them in which in what regard? Well, you testified or you said that there is no storage facilities
around in Summerville and you also said that if I remember correctly that modern um rental units don't usually have storage space because it's economically not viable, which runs contrary to my 25
plus experience in real estate, particularly residential real estate. So I was curious, so I looked up and apparently Somerville has two luxury communities that provide storage facilities on site, including the 5x5
units. Um, furthermore, there are two communities that provide large garages and extra closet spaces, walk-in closets, and for additional needs, there is a self- storage facility on Route 28 less than a mile from
Somerville Circle. >> What's the question? >> The question is, yes, the question is when we are considering whether Summerville can support a storage facility, are we really analyzing what kind of rental units we have? Because your analysis says 67%
of rentals means we need x amount of square foot in in fac in storage. Does that take into account how many storage units those facilities those rental units I'm sorry already provide? >> No, it doesn't. >> Okay. So would would you say
>> it doesn't also probably include people's garages, people's houses that have closets, their basement? >> I don't think that that's that's the same. You said that 67% of rental units within an area qualifies for X amount of
storage space. >> No, that's not what I said. I said the number of de the number of the population density equates to how much storage space, not the number, not the percentage of renter. I said we'd like to see percent a high percentage of
renter, but that's not what determines whether there is a need for self storage. The population, whether it's multif family or not. I just said the multif family is kind of above and beyond what the normal population is because it's almost like a bonus for
renting units. I didn't say that factors into what the demand what the what how much supply is needed. >> I thought that you said that the more rental units are in the area, the more the greater demand for storage. >> It's I said that helps with drive
demand, but that's not the the determining factor. It's the population that determines how much supply is needed. >> I think one of the board members was asking that clarification too where she was saying that typically you want seven square feet and but when a rental community could support more like around
eight square feet, >> right? Because the the the national average is seven to eight. In my calculations, I use seven to be conservative, but where there's a high density of renter, I would argue that eight is more
likely this the sweet spot for how much storage a market >> needs, >> right? And my question is, if we now throw into your analysis the fact that the the communities that we have, the rental communities that we have already
provide storage on site, wouldn't that change your analysis? >> No, because it would still be at the seven. So, so maybe so, so maybe just to give you the benefit of the doubt and trying to interrogate her and find holes in her testimony,
>> even if she was wrong, like like you're saying, you're trying to point out that, oh, well, she didn't consider this, she didn't consider that, so maybe she's off. It would still she would still be at the seven uh square feet because that's what the national average is. Correct. >> No, I agree with that. But that would be satisfied by the existing supply because
we're not taking in consideration the existing supply. No, because she's saying that there's nothing within the onem radius if you >> But I am saying that there is because the communities already have the storage units provided. >> Do you know how much square footage they have? >> Well, I mean I did I had 20 seconds to
do a Google but we don't know. We don't exactly we don't know. >> It's the population that drives how much we need. >> Not I mean I I get Never mind. Okay. >> I don't I'm not following you entirely.
You're not following entirely saying that because the rental communities already provide storage on site that should be taken into account when we are deciding whether some will needs another storage facility. >> No, we're not. >> Okay.
>> It's getting late. Good evening. Good evening. >> Phil Decker, 160 West Cliff Street. Uh we describe Somerville as a walking walkable vibrant community with a very active downtown with a beautiful uh
historic burough hall right across the street from your site with a senior citizen center right near the site as well which we're all concerned about. Uh and those are just side notes. What we did do was compare
Somerville to Westfield and Princeton perhaps as being walkable, vibrant communities. Uh I did I did some research while I was sitting here listening to a lot of the data being thrown around and I guess
this is a rhetorical question, but why aren't there any storage facilities in Westfield and Princeton? self-s storage facilities. Is it perhaps the board there had the wisdom not to approve them?
>> She can't answer that. >> Jason, what's what's the >> If there's no one else from the public, I'm assuming you're gonna end the night. >> Yes. Are you ready for three or four more rounds? >> Especially especially if you have one more quarter left in the Nick game that
you can watch. >> Um so what what I guess a we'll get you the all kidding aside, we'll get you the data that that you asked for the the exhibits. We'll provide that. >> Thank you. >> Um the additional item that Cliff had asked >> including including the items you
referred item or items you referred to. >> Yep. That's fine. >> Can I jump in here right now because we're losing the crowd? The word historical was bounced around several times tonight. >> Yeah, >> I think we better clear that issue up. You know, the big elephant in this room
is that house. I realize that. >> So far as I know, and I think I'm accurate, that has not been designated as historical building. >> And I also understand and Cliff, correct me if I'm wrong, we don't have the authority to even do that or even talk about it.
>> So, I'd like to just so anybody sitting here understand where we're going with this thing. We we we are not the we don't designate the historical. Go to the council, talk to them. We can't do it here. >> This board cannot make a declaration as to a historical site. Ma'am, do you have a question?
>> Yes. Um I do. There was a submission for historical designation for the building of 20 West End. Twice it was submitted and it was never returned signed by the burrow of Somerville. I worked in that building for 32 years and I was part of
that. even got a plaque outside and I have the history of the building if anyone is interested. It's a very important building in Somerville that I would sincerely appreciate consideration before it's demolished. >> That has to go to the council, not to us. That's all I'm trying to say.
>> I was going to say this board cannot make such a declaration. We do not have the jurisdiction to do so. However, you can go to the council and and and the council would coordinate whatever whatever historical preservation
organization that we have that would either follow through on that or uh do what would be necessary. You said something has been filed but it's not sign. Has it been submitted to anybody? >> Submitted twice to the historical
society in the burrow and to our knowledge before we to vacate the premises because I worked there. Um, the paperwork was not returned signed as approved. Submitted twice. >> I think that has to Well, I think that
has to be followed up on because if it hasn't been submitted then it hasn't been submitted unfortunately. That's >> the whole situation is unfortunate and I would um sincerely appreciate if this board would consider um not demolishing
that building and and keeping it as a historical part of Somerville that can be converted. >> But we but no, you're ask but you're asking for a de facto declaration from this board which does not have the authority
to do this. >> Not necessarily just speaking. >> C can I just sorry I'm sorry just one second. >> Okay. And then I want to respond. Go ahead. So, I mean, now we're getting it at I'm not saying that there's going to be a comment period where everyone can
say their feelings on the application, right? >> Um, no, I understand. But >> tonight, >> what Right. But what I was going to say is typically when you file an application for development, it's in the MLUL. It's section 110. I've had to deal with it many times. If if an if a
property is in one of three categories, there's historic preservation jurisdiction, and this isn't one of them. one is where the site's been deemed historic by ordinance and I also believe that the I'm not this is a different area of law but I also believe the property owner has to be involved in
the designation. Um so so that's one correct. >> Two is if you're in a historic district which this is not. And then third is if there's some um mention of the property in the master plan um as to this as to
historic designation. But even that but even that only gives the zoning board or planning board whichever board you're in front of advisory this an advisory role and a and the HPC an advisory role just to comment and
provide some you know commentary on the application. It doesn't give the board jurisdiction to keep it um maintained. Um >> that is correct. But but I do understand the comment and you know the client is here and and he they they hear what the
what this this person is is saying and and and I understand the the um the nostalgic and the importance and that that you're raising. I understand that. I'm not trying to downplay it or jump in. >> I'm also four generations Somerville and my son currently who's fifth generation
still lives in town in my childhood home. So my roots are deep in Somerville and the love of I just >> Oh, of course. Oh, of course. >> Just question the appropriateness of it was it's a wonderful proposal, but I just don't think West
>> Yeah. I And and again, I just wanted to jump in on the legal question. The comments like that, you're obviously well entitled to speak about them later. Um but I but the board doesn't have jurisdiction over the historic aspect of the >> No. And I and I just and I've just
mentioned discussed that. So, and that is the law. We do not have we do not have jurisdiction to do that. >> Well, I thank you for letting me comment. >> I mean, I don't want you to I don't want you to feel that I'm being dismissive of you, but your route is a different one than before this board.
>> Thank you. I just hope that the board takes into consideration the appropriateness of what is currently at 20 West End Avenue and what is proposed. >> I thank you. >> Well, I believe Mr. Toull had correctly mentioned what the parameters of the
board's consideration are and it's its limitation would be in an advisory capacity uh and and no and nothing more that that could not be a fulcrum to approve or deny an application.
>> Um all right so is that okay if I we go back to just scheduling real because we're concluded with testimony for the evening obviously. >> Yes we are. Um, so what would be the um what would be the next available meeting date for the
board? I know you're you're a busy board, so I just >> Well, we can be here every two weeks, every every other Wednesday and we have to look at the schedule because I know we've got a couple more coming up, Mike. Yeah, we have
tenatively a a garage application tenatively >> for the next meeting which is the 17th. The first meeting in July is no good and you you understand that we have the other self storage on >> No, I understand.
>> And I think at the second meeting we have PS&G who asked >> that's July 15th, >> correct? It was supposed to be in next meeting, Jason, but they asked for a continuence, I do believe, to the second meeting in July. >> It got be July 15th, wouldn't it?
>> So, assuming in the garage is the next meeting and then we're into August, >> right? >> We don't meet on July 29th. >> On July, we meet No, >> just the first and third. Uh
>> Oh, okay. All right. Can I can I ask this um if this is okay? >> Um your next hear me out before you you fire back. >> Your next actually scheduled meeting is June 17th, correct? >> Yes. >> Yes.
>> Okay. So this is my question. Can we carry it to that day for the sole purpose of then carrying it to another day like just for a scheduling carry because I need to check with my team in terms of availability because you're
saying the first is out the 15th is out and I'm I just checked I'm away the first week of August. So could we just carry to June 17th for the sole purpose of announcing the next meeting date at that meeting to >> I I would have no I would have no
objection to you doing that provided you're ready on the 17th with all >> Yeah, I would coordinate with with um with uh with Ryan and with Michael and with yourself as to the as to the appropriate date, you can obviously consult with the chairman in between those meetings and we can figure out the
best date. >> All right. >> Right, Jason. So, you're basically saying at the next board hearing, we'll lock down when it'll be heard again, >> right? We're carrying >> There'll be no further testimony, >> right? My proposal is we carry it to June 17th without further notice. And at June 17th, the board would announce the
actual date where there would be testimony. There'd be no testimony on June 17th. >> And you and you'll notice for whatever you'll notice for whatever new date we >> No, I wouldn't notice. You would just make the announcement on June 17th as to what the new date is without Legally, we
can do that. I mean, I don't I'm I'm of the opinion that I would prefer that you do notice, >> but I've noticed already twice for this actually three times, I think. So, >> why don't we see what the date ends up being the next hearing? If it's going to
be in September, then we can have it. Or if the board decides it's too long, we'll deal with that noticing issue. >> That's fine. Sorry. But, you know, you're on notice. We could >> PSG that they keep on kicking it down the road.
>> Well, that's another point. We could we could adjourn it to July 15th, to your point, and see what happens with PSCG if they decide to move it again and then we would at least have the date. >> How many times has PSG done this >> twice? How about we do this? >> How about we do this?
>> It was supposed to be March, supposed to be June. This is the third time. Yeah, it's twice been moved. >> How about the first? >> This will be the third. We set them up in PSC andG number two on the on the agenda >> if we get >> on the 15th. >> On the 15th.
>> No, no, we're talking about July. Yes. Sorry. July 15th. >> Yeah. >> All right. Let me just let me just check. >> Can you get your team on the field on the 15th? >> Let me just check with everybody real quick. >> All right. >> That's a good point.
>> I got it, Morgan. Then we cancel. >> I'll give them gift cards so they can put it back on. So that's what we're gonna do. >> And there'll be no notice, >> right? >> I'm just sorry, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mr.
Chairman, I'm just having a lot of like scheduling. Could we just adjourn it to June 17th for the sole purpose of just figuring out the between the next two weeks, I'll correspond with Michael and Cliff on availability, then we can announce it then. And then if it's too far out and they want me to renotice
again, I'll I'll do it. I prefer not to, but we could always talk about that. That's fine. >> We don't look no matter for both the board and the applicant, the notice issue is critical. I would if we want you to do that, I would hope that you would exceed to our request. Well, let's
see when the date is. >> Okay, that's fine. >> Okay. >> Cuz we already had you scheduled, >> right? >> Yeah, >> that works. >> All right. So, could we just make a formal announcement that this is if you want me to do it, I could do it. >> The next hearing on this application
will be Wednesday, June 17th at 700 p.m. in this location. Uh at that time the applicant will appear as has been discussed in terms of a scheduling uh in terms of a scheduling arrangement. There will be go ahead.
>> There will be it will not be new there will not be new testimony offered at this meeting. >> Right. And there'll be no further notice. >> Right. There'll be no further notice. >> So purpose of meeting on the 17th is for scheduling. >> Correct. >> So want to move that.
>> Second. All in favor? I I >> opposed carry. >> All right. Thank you. >> Any other business to come before the board? >> How about that annual report? It's a little early. >> You can talk about the annual report.
>> Yes, ma'am. >> Motion. >> Are we make a motion to adjurnn? >> Yeah. >> Move and second. All in favor of adjournment. >> I Let's go next. actually, you know,