##VIDEO ID:cuEQv3gjSx0## good evening everyone and welcome tonight is Tuesday February the 4th the time is 7 p.m. we'll call to order the city of South Miami commission meeting uh if you please all silence or turn off your cell phones we'd greatly appreciate it uh Madam clerk if you could call the role please yes mayor Fernandez pres vice mayor Cory present commission B here commission C here commissioner Rodriguez you have a if we could please stand for a moment of silence followed by The Pledge led by commissioner Corey flag thank you please be seated Madam clerk I believe we have a presentation this evening yes we have one school zone enforcement overview great is uh deputy chief are you going to be handling the uh oh Captain barzola welcome you're recognized mayor commissioner good evening Mr city manager City attorney how's everybody doing city clerk well I'm here to give you guys a presentation on our could you use could little close with the mic or can we give him a handh please thank you is that work out that's much better thank you sir I'm here to give you guys a presentation on our speed enforcement cameras which have been uh which have been operational uh since September 25th of 2024 uh following our 30-day uh warning period so um you guys have any questions you more than free to interrupt me at any time if you have any questions during the presentation So based on the statistics in the State of Florida as you all know we have bad drivers okay that's that's a given we don't need a study to tell us that we all know that that's a fact and the state developed this program for school safety initiatives including uh they also at the same time created School Bus uh initiatives where they automated the cameras on school buses to catch violators who were passing school buses while their stop signs were out um if you guys ever watch any of those videos You'll Be you'll see kids running for their lives it's I've seen them the county officers have shown them to me it's actually pretty scary stuff and I'm not being hyperbolic here I'm telling you it's like wow um so as we all know we got bad drivers so what do you want to do with programs like this you want to you want to change behaviors that's what you want to do and you want to create a safer environment and that's that's what you're teaching people to do so what you want to do with a program like this is during a period of enforcement hopefully you're changing People people's behaviors they realize there's a school zone there and while the enforcement period is going on during the day while school's in session hopefully they're staying within the speed limit in that in that area so based on all the studies like we said we all know that Florida we have horrible drivers we're know for it worldwide so they implemented this so State of Florida um passed the law allowing municipalities counties to introduce um automatic uh speed enforcement cameras within school zones right now red speed is our vendor uh red speed Services Miami day County us Miami Gardens aventur Pine Crest West Miami Homestead Coral Gables kcan and Sunny Isles I can tell you I don't know if it's good or not but we were the first ones to go live Pine Christen shortly followed us uh I know that the County's currently adopting theirs or installing theirs I believe they have over 200 cameras or 200 schools identified that they're going to be installing them at over the the next year or two so as we started with our program back in October I'm sorry back in um August we started off with the 30-day warning period okay so that means any violators so the way the program works is you have to be doing 10 miles over the speed limit the program starts 30 minutes before school starts it goes into the normal 15 m per hour zone so you have to be doing over 25 miles hour so the camera triggers at 26 miles hour a photos Tak of the vehicle a video is taken of the vehicle passing through the through the camera through through the speed zone and through the school zone excuse me and that that uh information is captured and during that time we also did a blitz with the help of uh Brandon Diaz over here we did a social media blitz we did a media blitz we did a blitz with our local media who constantly keeps asking us for our numbers um but uh so they're still on top of it but we did a a social media blitz and a media blitz to let the people know that we were doing this um we followed through with social media um and of course people typically don't listen to us so when they get their first warning that's when it it hits so our program went live September 25th once we went live we there's certain one of the criterias that we were taught by Red speed is year over-year it's a dramatic decrease in the number of violations because because you're changing behaviors people start realizing hey this stop speeding through school zones um so it improves the safety in school zones which it does because it changes people's behaviors um it also helps with some revenue and it's a revenue source so we keep up to 60% of the revenue up to $5 from each one that we collect we send it has to go to the school crossing guard program actually you guys just back in November December voted to renew our contract with Miami day County helps pay for that program for our school crossing guard program also most of the money or the majority of the money that the city does keep has to go to um safety initiative or criminal justice initiative law enforcement initiatives so it is uh Public Safety based so um portion goes to the state the county the courts and stuff like that um and it's Revenue sharing with the vendor as well they keep a percentage for what they do on their end so as the slide shows it's a force multiplier you don't have to have an officer assigned out there to a school zone um out there with a laser gun radar gun the officer out stepping out into traffic or anything else like this this is all captured digitally on camera and all the evidence is collected via the camera system itself um as it already States and then we also what we also got with this program is license plate readers and I know some people have an issue with license plate readers I understand it because I'm one of those guys that has a problem with big brother watching us but the way license plate readers work and I just want you to Simply understand this they're held for 30 to 45 days um they can be used for investigations so the ways ours are set up and if you go down Sunset Drive in front of uh on Sunset Drive at 6 um you're going Westbound and eastbound before you get to 67th Avenue in either direction you're going to see a black camera that's a license plate reader collects license plate information in both directions we also have them on 67th Avenue in front of the middle school it's a community school but I still remember it as the middle school and also we have them in front of somi so as the information comes in what you're doing is you're basing that those reads off a hot list you get stolen stolen vehicle hits since we've started our uh license plate program and chief if remind me I think we've had them up for a month and a half two months already since they've been active we've had 12 hits on stolen cars stolen license plates and something you guys are going to be voting on tonight you'll realize that nobody in state county has a valid license plate a v valid driver's license because it also gives you hits on driver's licenses and if I turn that on for you it'll go off every 3 minutes with somebody that doesn't have a valid driver's license so it provides us as information that information on the capturing the tag for investigative purposes is kept for 45 days in the system so quick example your following a guy who's stalking a young lady you want to know if he was in an area close to her house you run the tag it'll tell give you the hits if the guy's been in the house one of the things we also use it for car stolen in the middle of the night the first thing you do is you run your uh go to flock go to Vigilant you run the tag see if there was any hits on any of the cameras in our neighborhoods in Coral Gables in the county or any or Pine Crest see if the car drove through that area when they were leaving so it gives you a sense of direction where they were going any questions so far I know I'm a little bit yes you recognized um Captain so you just spoke about I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing when you said the thing that we're going to vote on later on this this evening you're talking about the cross uh with Miami day County and using citations or the ability through Miami day County through the system to give citations no no no no what were you talking about so there's a civil citation program that we're the the chief wants us to participate and the Department's going to participate where it's basically a Drive Legal program oh so it's in first part of tonight or something like that so basically what it is if you have a suspended license before you go down that rabbit hole of getting one ticket after another after another end up in jail and you can't pay your way out of it there's a program that they're going to develop where it's a civil citation program officers discretion you get to go ahead and uh get your license back participating in the program the goal of the program at the end is you pay some of your fines you work off your fines and you're able to get your license back at the end without having to go to jail and all that other good stuff and education I'm sure I'm certain not going to jail is an education so I would take that um so uh so like I said I was making a crack but if you listen to a LIC nobody has license down here I mean it seems like every other person has a suspended license or I I had an experience last year with a your very efficient LPR and I guess it's in the gables and one of our officers stopped me apparently my license was suspended for a a tag that a a tag I had not returned on a car that I had traded in for my wife that was tagged to me so it was a very interesting very educational experience but yeah yeah so we can use it as an enforcement tool but that information only stays in there for 45 days and it also provides us as an investigative too um as far as our number of violations so far that we have captured so total working violations is 10,912 since we started the program this not does not include any of the warnings this information is valid but until um January 31st of this year total pending police review at this moment at the time that I ran this which was this morning was 281 we have dismissed 1332 after review and total no notices of violation issued are 9,299 out of those 697 have been paid 30 people have requested Administrative Hearings 720 have become UTC eligible which is uniform traffic citation it means it's now goes to the court system it goes through the state and we have issued a total of 1,28 uh UTC so far and we also had to issue 375 uh refunds and that was because we made an error in the way we adopted or the way we enforced the sunset and we had to make a correction there to the mayor you recognize can you can you talk to to us about what the actual uh queue looks like how long is it very intensive what what is that so the working what happens is with every violation and I want I know you guys are also familiar with our red light program so they both basically work the same there's a violation that's captured or an apparent violation that's captured and speed enforcement cameras is different than the red light cameras so the speed enforcement camera the violation is being captured by the camera and it's being determined by the C the the the computer the radar and everything else that there was a violation captured it captures that information our officers then are able to so it goes into a un working queue which is reviewed originally by the vendor it goes through a two two review process through them basically is there a car there is there a readable tag and does the tag match the car at that point if it goes into the officer's working queue the officer then conducts a review and then is able to based on their decision issue a notice of violation the review takes what minutes uh no the review is actually 10 seconds okay uh red light cameras usually take a little bit longer go guys recognize um just question so if the camera's catching the the the driver speeding the tag how is it that um we have so many dismissed just curious so like I said we made mistakes uh one of the other things that we discovered was um Mand Stam school they don't they have um they have school when the county does so one of the things that we started doing out of fairness to people is we' started to dismiss the ones after January especially if they're not in session we started to dismiss those based on our officer's discretion um and like I said we've captured some some problems at the beginning we had did have some radar laser issues I'll tell you there was one that said the guy was doing 51 and a 15 I looked at it and I'm like I called the vendor I said that guy's not that guy's doing 12 had to readjust her cameras and all this other stuff so there's been growing pains in in the program okay thank you Captain quick question so there's about 1,49 that are unpaid at this point and not not not have not not been issued UTC or UTC eligible have not requested a hearing or have not been refunded right so you have 60 days from the time you get issued it so it's in within that period so about a th outstanding that we're still people can still decide to challenge them pay them or ignore the violation and let it become a UTC correct okay so uh so you with this program you have 60 days 60 days or hold on that's a red light camera program 30 it's 30 days with this one 60 days for the red light camera program so 30 days with this program you have 30 days to decide if you're going to request a hearing you're going to pay the violation or do nothing like it like you said it goes back into the officer's working queue by state statute it has to be a state law enforcement officer or somebody that's classified as a public service Aid because they can issue traffic violations as well and it goes back into the working queue once it goes back into the working queue they do a second review and then it becomes a UTC and the UTC will be issued at that time and then it would go through the county clerk's the clerk's office and the county court system thank thank you for sharing this with us I I just want to make note of something that when the conversation is being had of all of these lprs reading the car moved this way it went that way this is all after the fact data correct that's correct so other than I'm I'm I'm sorry I'll let you no no tell me so other than the like I told you if it's on a hot list and there's a a hit that information is received by our officers who who are running the program in the background that there's a hip for a stolen vehicle that's live it's also sent to the County's realtime crime Center which is then dispatched over the air that hey we just got a hit on a stolen vehicle or wanted homicide subject which we haven't had one of those yet but uh mostly it's stolen vehicles stolen tags and stuff like that a glob 12 yeah yes you recognized thank you so then it's good to gather data in that sense but it's an after Thea data so unless it's a live hot one and am I wrong in recalling that we don't we as in our city doesn't chase people down that is correct we have a so when we get a car that is stolen we can't chase them down correct well we can attempt to stop them and conduct a felony stop if they choose to elude us no we cannot chase them unless it's a violent Fon man okay and then lastly I don't know about you guys I've gotten phone calls up from Angry Angry Angry people that they don't know about this that it's punitive that it shouldn't be the whole day that it should be during school speed zone times we all know how I feel about this I I am I have not changed my opinion I don't need to State it again but we should consider at some point if we want to do this during school speed zone times versus the whole day and and then I have one question because I don't remember did we ever put up the sign or have the county or whoever put up the sign when you are going from Miller towards Sunset the speed limit changes from 35 to 30 as soon as you cross sunset on 67th Avenue when you're coming from us one there is a sign that says speed limit 30 but when you are traveling in the other direction where the speed limit goes from 30 to 30 I just don't think that there is yet to be a sign that says speed limit 30 I can't tell you if it was installed I know that the chief personally requested that sign okay I can guarantee you that he did I know because I've driven everybody crazy I haven't seen it yet commiss you're recognized okay thank you thank you so much for the report I I don't think the report's been finished so do we want to sorry I'm sorry commissioner I him uh Mr vice mayor do you want to hear the Baler report we have questions about what you heard this far I did just have a question about um I had a resident who spoke with me someone who's not really prone to exaggeration I definitely believe her and based on what you said tonight you know she said she wasn't going near the speed that they reported I was just curious when you said that some errors were fixed how confident are you that it is fixed and working properly and and and how did that adjustment occur so what happened is exactly what I told you we're spotting anomalies and it wasn't happening with every car car where you could tell the car wasn't going at the stated speed one of the areas we had that issue at was South Miami uh somi yeah where it was telling you a car was doing 35 you would look at it and the car is stuck in traffic traveling with everybody else so it was quite obvious that turned out to be an issue with the radar system the way it was set up by the company they worked it out with their radar oper with the radar company that they contract with or the laser company and they set up some a couple different things where exactly where it's pointing at at the best angle and based on the D Dynamics and the recommendations from the radar laser company of how it should be properly set up I have not based on my reviews I have not seen any more of those issues pop up anymore where I see them so I haven't seen them and my officers haven't reported any any of my officers have't reported them and we told them to make sure that they're on the lookout exactly for stuff like that captain on that on that point those anomalies did not result in a citation being issued because they were caught in the key review that's correct okay further questions no okay continue please yes sir so as you can tell here we one of the guarant one of the things to factor in when you're going to tell if you're success of your programs repeat offenders so as you can tell there's still repeat offenders is 6% uh 6% for October 6% for November 7% for December and 8% up for January so our goal is to to reduce that completely to get compliance and change people's behaviors so we we've had repeat violators what the program has shown based on studies the ones that they've done in Georgia where this program has been in place for several years is typically it's a 90% complete reduction and violations year after year so and then we did you do you can also do a demographics run and this is uh because it says 56% of the people in Miami we know everybody in day county has their addresses Miami so it does it by ZIP code and everything else and as you can tell our biggest violators are from probably unincorporated day County then Coral Gables and our neighbors Pine Crest and then South L residents that's it that's it okay closing questions or comments any uh thank you for the presentation I you know my observation I unfortunately got a ticket very early on now I'm acutely aware of uh the hours which are not all day they're 7 to 4 currently so uh with obviously reduced speeds during the peak school hours uh I have gotten a handful of complaints mostly Bel mandon which you know my experience been corrected by our team after the fact uh when they realize school is not in session for Mi Med County Public Schools and uh I have actually gotten uh a number of comp uh compliments from parents because they have seen they feel the conditions are safer so um again colleague something for us to follow I just want to remind ourselves we are not locked into this contract forever so hopefully what I would suggest if the administration could help us in September if we could bring this item back for another review just to kind of see a full year of implementation where we are at I believe after the first year we do have the right to terminate the contract without penalty am I am I correct I believe with the 30-day notice at anytime you can can okay so I think after a year probably would be worth seeing where we are what the experience has been you know um what our feedback has been what the scope of complaints has been and assessing whether we want to continue this for another year or just continue it but we do have I want to remind ourselves we do have that flexibility that's one of the reasons we chose this vendor as opposed to an existing vendor that provides us um services with red light cameras so further comments or questions yes sir through the May um Captain just wanted to bring this up to you so so you guys have it in mind I haven't had the chance to tell the chief this I live off two blocks off 67th Avenue by uh South Miami middle and what we're seeing a lot in our neighborhood so I live off 60 I live on 64th so 64th and 65th Avenue what we're seeing a lot of is that people are trying to you know um divert from the cameras and going through the neighborhoods so that's the only thing I've gotten complaints about is that people are trying to not get caught by them so they're cutting through the neighborhoods to pass the cameras so the belief is that because the cameras are now using the back roads to avoid them well there's been an up like you can see considerably there's been a lot more traffic coming through through the streets I've seen it personally okay but not as much as 65th Avenue 65th Avenue gets most of the people trying to okay I'll defin pass it on to our traffic units and I'll talk to the CH letting you know in the mornings m in the mornings M we we can also put out a a traffic counter out there to to to Monitor and we also have uh SDK so we could check uh the traffic patterns if it's actually in actually that's supped to suggest I'd love to see you know can we get it update on what we're doing with SDK and the the data that we're actually acquiring yeah how how around schools we may be seeing speed rates change just to kind of validate or you know validate or disabuse ourselves or whether there's been a significant change I mean to me to me I hear that and I'm people say that I'm wondering it can't be any faster to go around the camera then just go straight through the Zone but maybe I'm wrong but I I think that we we do have a contract I believe that we approved that gives us real- time data yeah so the data is actually it's it's 30 days old sir okay so the data so what they do is January's data is available February December's data was available in janary January so we'll have January's data shortly available now in February so you have more up to date okay we'll have we'll have at that point uh by now we've got uh 120 days wor the data since we launched this program so it should give us a sense of whether traffic the traffic pattern has changed yeah in the interum so just again I think it's a it's a good point to track and obviously we have now two motor units that are not forced to monitor this area so we can get them out and deploy them into neighborhoods if we're seeing uh uh some complaints about that yes sir further comments okay thank you for the presentation sir thank you sir a good night okay I believe we have one add-on item Madam clerk can you read it for the record please yes a excuse me a resolution of the city Commission of the city of South Florida amending resolution number 05- 23-1 15984 to weigh the requirement that the naming of Southwest 62nd Avenue between Southwest 4th Street and Southwest 44th Street and honor great uh without objection we'll add that item on to tonight's agenda any objection seeing none consider that item added on um can I have a motion to approve the minutes of January 21st 20125 we have a motion by commissioner Kai is there a second second we have a second by commissioner Rodriguez Madam clerk if you can call the RO on the minutes yes commissioner cayen yes commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner Bon yes may vice mayor Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes minutes 5 thank you Mr manager we can get your report please good timing just trying to get to the to the front here Deputy manager will be presenting the report Madam Deputy manager you're recognized thank you um on the event side we have movies in the Park series that continues this Friday at Palmer Park beginning at 6: p.m. where you going to have have Barbie playing and there's going to be crafts and popcorn for the kids also this Saturday from 5: to 10: we have the SOI Night Market I just ran I got to catch my breath it's okay it's okay you're a mom you're a mom of three kids you got this it's okay the night market it's date night in SOI is the theme so we're going to have Tango dancing Love Songs Bingo for a couple so it's going to be a fun night that's 5 to 10 p.m. this Saturday Valentine's Day senior Valentine's Day party is happening they have massages is um Wellness checks by Mii Miami Dade fire Raffles a DJ that's going to be a good time at the senior center last week we had a workshop with plusia many of you attended so that was to review the alternatives for Sunset Drive there's currently a uh presentation that's up on our website with a link to vote for your favorite presentation your favorite alternative that's tentatively uh voting is open until Friday so we invite people to go watch the presentation if you didn't see it and vote thank you on the septic to SE on the septic to sewer project it resumed yesterday after a pause for the holidays during this time the city addressed some contractual matters we adjusted the project management oversight to ensure that everything continues to move forward efficiently the contractors completing the necessary work from 85th Street from 60th to 62nd AB so anybody who wants um information on that you can send your email to septic to at sou miami.gov or sign up on our website so that you can get the updates in real time that's the manager's report questions of the manager yes sir you're recognized the voting that we're seeing on on is it just through the social medias Facebook Instagram or how's that being applied and are we getting good responses good feedback or so they're taking the votes that they received at the workshop and then there's a QR code at the end of the presentation you can vote through there or through our website they have been receiving um lots of votes they have one of the Alternatives right now that's winning so far so depending on how many we get with the pure beer team will decide if Friday would be a good day to close it but tentatively it's scheduled to close on Friday mam manager could you bring up Mr riveral for a second I just wanted you remind us I believe can you can you remind us what he was recognized for or the department was R for recently how could we forget it was the triple crown and what was so what is the Triple Crown and how many years a row have we won it now we can't remember it's too many so Mr why don't you refresh our recollection good evening uh it is a Triple Crown gfoa Awards it uh to entities which is only five in Miami day County as of right now and I believe less than 350 Nationwide of the 86 or 85,000 that are qualified to um to apply it uh recognizes the award for the Acer uh the annual comprehensive financial report thank you for thank you for breaking down the acronym the popular uh annual Financial the paer popular annual financial report which is a summation for non-financial readers uh of the audit made so that the common person is that the budget for dummies award that is the audit for dummies the audit for dummies award thank you okay and then the annual budget presentation award which is preparing a budget uh meeting all of the strict standards that are required by the uh Florida and government Finance Officers Association right well congratulations again and since I'm a fan of baseball and of horse racing I uh asked our Intrepid city clerk staff to uh put together a small token of our appreciation to recognize you on this distinguished accomplishment which is how many years in a row now uh I want to say we started receiving because it took us a while to get there uh I want to say we started our first time was in 2014 [Applause] so for those of you who are horse racing fans typically the horse the winning horse and the jockey get a uh you know a reef of roses we could not find a local floors who could produce one for us otherwise we'd gift you one so the best we could do was a bouquet with streamers so this is our attempt to recognize you for your triple clown Victory your own your own ribbons with your name on it uh Alfredo riverol congratulations if we could uh join us here at the front we will hand you the uh winning the winning bouquet for the best financial jockey in D County of course not we really we really like we really tried and was like like we really try we called everybody we called everybody [Music] at least you don't have to shop for Valentine's just freeze them oh give me that that's Jessica give me that yes said he he is Frugal so he may regift him I don't know freeze him again congratulations and uh my sincere thanks to Nikki and Jessica for uh making my vision a reality thank you um let's move on to the next item city attorney's report something exciting come on Sir got nothing for you man nothing okay just by way of comment uh for the benefit of the board I know we had a sunshine meeting recent L on the pending litigation matter with mandl um I've been asked to meet with him later this week and uh a business adviser so I will report out if there's anything to share from that conversation at the next meeting okay uh public remarks let's move on to the next item of the agenda Mr McAn you are recognized sir good evening everybody good evening um I just want to publicly state that I support resolution two Pata aner prise sir why don't we do this why don't we iite CH up when the item is up we'll open up again let's do that I I see greay Reid is on here for the same item I apologize I didn't recognize it okay is there anyone else who would like to address this Commission on any other subject uh other than item two and anyone on Zoom please raise your virtual hand seeing no one in the audience and no one online we will close public remarks and again I'll afford everyone who like to speak on item two or the add-on item one an opportunity to address his commission at that time okay uh colleagues we've got a couple discussion items for the benefit of the public do you mind if we move both U naming items ahead on the agenda any objection colleagues no okay why don't we take uh add-on item F1 first if you can read that to the record Madam clerk yes F1 resolution of the city Commission of the city of South missa amending resolution number 05- 23-1 15984 to weigh the requirement that the nameing on Southwest 62nd Avenue between Southwest 40th Street and Southwest 44th Street and honor Julio be done so post mon thank you madam clerk I'm sorry commissioner Rodriguez I believe this is your item would you like to open up with a brief presentation so in in in reason that I I brought this up was because you know we're going [Music] to this was already approved and I guess when when we did the the naming for for commissioner Gil you know it looked that to me that I think it would have been a very special moment for him to have with his daughter and with his wife and for him to have been able to see it at the last moment of his life at that time so I know that we're going to also bring this forward for Dr Price so I just figured that there would only be one person left on that list so why alienate that one person that is pending this naming so I I I brought this up to to just do this now while and basically that would just give us everybody who's been named something you know they they get to see it while while they're still here and enjoy with their family would you like to move the item I move the item I'll second it uh any further comments yes uh commissioner Bon I still can't get it down I it's okay call me Lisa Lisa it'll be right 100% of the time um right I think that if this is something that we're going to continue to do instead of taking it one by by one by one the the person's interested in naming things before people pass instead of doing it this way should amend the ordinance because if we are wanting to do it for the former mayor Robina now if we're wanting to do it for former mayor price now then logic would show that that's something that would continue so instead of saying we're going to change it here and we're going to change it there just change the ordinance and this ceases to be we're not we're not so I don't deal I I'm trying to understand change the ordinance in what way because because right now the ordinance states that though you can name whatever it is it cannot be executed until after they have passed unless there's a forfeit vot unless there's a forit vote and we've historically already with the Dr Price run into this issue this is either the third or the fourth time that we see it and if we are going to do things like this I think first of all we do a diservice if if and when we continue to do what we have done and so I say if four out of the five of us are interested in changing the ordinance so that we do not continue to see this and it just is a majority vote then that's what you should do versus trying to change do you understand what I mean I I I I do understand what you're saying I I I think you know it's a fine line obviously uh we want to honor people that have accomplished her men of say because I was having a conversation over the weekend um obviously the new secretary of state has a Nexus to South Miami you know may not be from my political party but I recognize he's achieved a significant Milestone having a conversation about whether we should consider naming something in his honor here in South Miami the problem with that is in my estimation he's a very young man by comparison to the people people that we're talking about so um you know people the people that I think we're talking about are retired close to retirement age and some places very advanced in age and so I think to commissioner Rodriguez's point I don't I don't think there's a need to change the ordinance I think a four out of five vote is appropriate when it's someone who's still with us um I think the only distinction is I I I'm comfortable voting for to name things after people who have lived an honorable life demonstrated that it may be towards the end of their professional or personal life and I think giving them their Laurels while they're still with us is a is a is a is a good thing as commissioner Rodriguez indicated um I would have would have been a nice moment to be able to put the plaque on the wall with commissioner Gil still with us it was a fantastic moment with him not here I think it was ever more special to be able to do that at that particular point in time I think that's the only disagreement that we you know we may have on this substantively but I think the ordinance at as it's calibrated it's fine it's not worked perfectly and certainly we're revisiting one item more times than I would care to but um I don't think the standard is wrong personally so I'm not trying to beat a that dead horse here but you realize in the time that we've been on this St then we've tried to do this three times Well actually now this is four I don't know let's three at least three four we can yeah let's so we we're talking about an item that's unrelated to I don't want to mix metaphors so number one is well we're not because we're changing it we're wanting to name it after people that are alive and what I am saying is if that is the case then it should be three out of five moving forward because you might never have Perfection and you're dragging something around unnecessarily it's a good point I think you guys should consider if you feel strongly about it I would ask you to sponsor the ordinance uh further comments through to the mayor yes sir um uh commissioner bonich I I I understand what you're saying maybe there could be some sort of because I also do agree reason I brought this is I I I don't believe uh mayor herina at this age is going because oh going back go go going back going back the the the the the Precedence for this ordinance is in case we do name this example is Jose cono Street you know and then it gets push back because of all the things that a person will do after um maybe we can set a an age limit that if the person is at a certain age and still alive that we can move the item or move move it to to to do the naming why they're still alive hoping that you don't think a 65y old person or older will do something in those late life uh years to can ask can ask a question uh to the clerk and to you the sponsor do we know if I know when we last considered this particular naming we had moved to make it effective immediately for the mayor do we know if he's at the time he expressed an objection do you know if he's expressed uh his agreement in in this case I talk to him on Friday okay so Madam Clerk and he's confirmed that okay I just want to make sure we're acting consistent with his wishes as well so I look I I I at the time even though he's substantially younger than the Reverend Dr Price I I thought it was nice uh that his parents are much older for them to also enjoy that moment so my only objection to an age limit is that it um it could deprive people of that moment as well particularly when your parents are substantially older as his are and I think for the family it' be a moment of a point of Pride as well I look I think the ordinance is well calibrated I think it gives us a chance to talk about these things it's not always a perfect conversation and sometimes puts us in in a position of a little bit of discomfort but these are not things that we should take lightly to your point I think um you know original Point uh commissioner and I and I think and I think it's a healthy conversation um and I'm I'm I'm excited to see mayor robina's name go up on a street here I think he served this community well and for me personally as the as a son of parents I only have one living parent left you know um I I know that I would be very proud to see my parents enjoy that moment with me if I was you know a little older and was didn't be worthy of such an honor so um happy to vote for this item for that reason and through through the mayor this is um these are like these are special uh instances where you have the first africanamerican mayor and you have the first Hispanic mayor so again we we it's not uh it's a fine line so I don't believe that this will just happen with just anyone going forward I I I think these are just two special cases further comments yes ma'am I think maybe either I misspoke or you guys misunderstand what I'm saying I'm saying the the way that it reads now is it's after they're they've passed or four out of five I'm saying if if you guys feel that it should be when they're alive then it shouldn't have to be four out of five three out of five you you should make it whatever it is that makes you happy because y'all are more interested like you like you've mentioned in having it for someone who's alive that's all I'm saying to that and I don't I don't know if I'm explaining myself yeah I don't disagree and I'm not explaining myself clearly which is I don't disagree that I think it should be hard to name something in honor of someone who's alive it should be near unanimous if not unanimous as hopefully these items will be so I I I agree with you it should be the B the standard should be we do it posthumously but when someone I think warrants the distinction while they're with us you know uh and we know I mean I I my the reason I think the standard should be higher is exactly the example you mentioned sometimes we name something after someone you know Bob Menendez was someone most people thought was beyond reproach served this country as a senator for many years and it turns out much later in life he did something that not only embarrassed himself but his constituents and so again um the examples that we've cited where we've made these decisions before people are you know approaching the end I you know have heard that Dr Price in the case of the next item is not doing well uh I certainly personally would like to give her the uh the comfort of knowing that her service was valued and that this that this commission made an affirmative statement in that regard so uh we'll get into that item in a minute I think the same is true for commissioner Robina for me in terms of his parents um so further comments seeing none we have a motion and a second Madam clerk if you can call the role please yes commissioner cayen commissioner Rodriguez yes Bon commissioner B no vice mayor Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes item passes 41 If You Could Read item P2 please item two a resolution of the city Commission of the city of South man Florida approving the naming of Park to be established on portion of City owned property located at Southwest 64th Terrace and between Southway 60th Avenue and Southway 61st Court in honor of and after Dr Enterprise thank you madam clerk I I'd like to move the item with a modification to see attorney if you can read into the record please thank you mayor your Indulgence uh the third recital which refers to the the area of the the park is uh needs to be corrected um it where it reads right now in lines 22 and 23 It should read uh the William the portion of the Williamson property consisting of approximately 3500 to 5,000 sare F feet at the Southwest as opposed to Southeast the southwest corner of the intersection of Southwest 64 Terrace and 60th Avenue uh located north of 6500 Southwest 60th Avenue that would be the change I I would I would ask the change to strike the size because I don't believe that's accurate uh do we need do we need the size do we know the size of unless we know the size of the Williams Williamson property to the South which is three folio no so there's so just to clarify the folio that was identified is an internal folio kind of in a midblock condition which I thought was inconsistent with discussions we' had as a board with what we wanted to do with possibly the mangle lot which is to possibly reserve a portion for this kind of an opportunity and then consistent with what was a cr's plan uh put the others into service for Workforce or affordable housing by selling them or transfering them and so I've identified if you know the William the Marshall Williamson Homestead um which is just south of the Eastern portion of this lot the the portion from the the northern property line that parcel 264 Terrace from 60th Avenue to basically the Western property line of uh the Williamson parcel would be the boundaries of the area that I would like to reserve for this designation so that's fine I I had sent a I had sent a markup of the map to the cler to the to the City attorney did you mark that up for them or not um yes and I could pass it okay I'll make it more obvious mayor I have a question why he's doing sure go ahead sir the way that the folio is set up right now it's not like that right so we would need to do a plot a plot and make sure that it's all modified correct we'd have to replot the whole property which we stopped um previously so that's the piece I want to designate and basically the balance would be available for us to do what we want with it the problem is if we do that we basically it was actually just this folio that was identified the problem is if you wanted them to put the rest of this property in the service as affordable housing would make that site unbuildable so my thought was connect this these two Parcels one which is the Homestead of the area's founder with the immediate parcel to the north so that you could actually um designate that as a heritage site at some point in the future and put the balance of the property facing 64 Street 64 Court uh out for a solicitation for affordable housing development yes sir you recognized mayor I I obviously we want to do this I want to do this for Dr Price I'm struggling with the allocation of a set place where we haven't really identified what we're going to do with this particular plot now I find it a little premature to like isolate a spot right now in my opinion because there's so many things that we can do it like I I obviously I want to set aside this is the the part you're talking about is roughly 11,000 sare ft yeah um which I which is great so if if that's the dedication then the other side is strictly for what I I don't know it could it could be a park or it could be affordable housing so so there's opportunities there that I don't know if we want to pencil ourselves into that particular triangle yet is there a way that we can I I'll just say this I don't know how this was transcribed this way cuz it's certainly never it's just been my no but the the description that was provided in the item the last few times it was published I don't know where that came from it did not come from me so my my intention from the beginning was always to dedicate that that uh southwest corner adjacent to the Williamson Homestead because uh you know again one of the opportunities or one of the stories I've heard from Mr mccant and others was that it was not uncommon in the past for movies to be you know projected onto the wall of Mr Williamson's home so I thought the interaction and the recreation of that opportunity if someday the city were to come in possession of his home and preserve it as a as a cultural Landmark you'd have the combination of his home and that Park working together to memorialize some of the history of the neighborhood the Northeast Park correct yeah again I and the last time we discussed this with commissioner leben the idea was to sever the Western half for Town Home Development consistent what the C had planned to do as part of the replat that we looked at at one point in time so that's the last public conversation we had about this my intention was to dedicate that northeast corner for that reason and preserve an integral integrated uh possibly developable parcel on the leftest side facing 64 61st court so that um something other than a park uh to meet another Community need could be could be realized from from that land that's my intention that's my motion that's the motion I will move as with a modification I'll leave it to the board to discuss it further and see what we want to do with it we will open up for a public comment but I want to at least have a conversation so people know what they're commenting on excuse me I'm sorry one quick question sorry commissioner the uh do you want to refer to the 11,000 approximately 11,000 square feet or do you want us just not mention I would like to there's some disquiet on the part of a couple of my colleagues understood okay I'll sit tight okay further comments uh let me move right to left yes sir oh through the mayor so as as far as I I knew from as commissioner k i I'm open and I and I'm I'm I want to move this forward so but with the information that I've been given from the time that that we've been doing this is to do that West Corner um not necessarily the that whole East 11,000 foot it was more the 3,000 and then adding the corner in there my only concern about this is eliminating those you know dedicating the 11,000 square F feet uh instead of the 3,000 square F feet because of the affordable the the possibility of doing affordable housing in 11,000 foot lot those are just more homes that were Town Homes whatever may go there that will have less of so I I just for me it's just thinking about you know are does the community want to remove take up that whole space and divert it from affordable housing to the park or keep it as what I guess yeah I I I simply chose that section because it was adjacent to the other home and because it would give you [Music] one unified piece of land fronting 64 Court I thought it would be very difficult for someone to want to come in and build around the park on two sides um so you know my my thought was you take the Western half just keep it all together to maximize it for eight or 10 Town Homes potentially based on what I see the size to be and then have the park adjacent to the historic Homestead um again I my concern about the north I guess what's the southwest corner of 64 Terrace and 64th cour is that it makes that kind of a possible afford affordable hous execution all the more inefficient that was my that was my concern and why I brought that concept forward the time prior and and wanted to carry it over this time and I can see through the mirror and I can and I can see that's that's logical um I don't know maybe uh you see the the the the South the that would be the South par oh next we don't we don't yeah we don't own that one no I know I know I was saying maybe make the park equivalent to that one and then that way you have an equivalent piece of land that's fine I just didn't I didn't know that yeah the reason I said it just that that southern portion has a little bit of a jog past the Western property line of the will H that just seem to make be a throwaway probably be green space for that development so if that if that's if that's if that's you know where you think the line should be drawn I'm fine with that I just I just figured taking the lot to the the adjacent lot to the uh to the to the a neighboring Street would be a logical way to portion of the land but I'm open to suggestions there about where the Lin strong commissioner Cory thank you so obviously we did discuss this before in conjunction with the naming that obviously didn't happen yes didn't go through at the time but we did kind of go over the orientation of the property and what we wanted to do we have had people in the past come to us for that particular uh uh parcel on the west side with interest in putting town home product there since obviously it's not as wide um so I do like the idea of preserving that lot on the East right next to Marshall Williamson home I don't necessarily like the idea of putting in development directly next to that home as a potential historic home and maybe having that park there as a way to highlight that historic home I do think that Eastern programming with a park would be amazing and then there still is possibility because we have had interest in the past hopefully have interest in the future of putting affordable uh town homes on the western side so that's how we had originally discussed it and obviously these Parcels in general have a long history of really nothing being done and I thought at the time that it it was good leadership and really good idea that we all came together to kind of visualize this property in the future of it both as a park and potentially um you know uh affordable housing so I I'm I am in favor of of of putting the park in the orientation that was mentioned and leaving the Western portion open again it could eventually be an extension of the park or it could be um could be affordable housing commissioner bonich you recognized but then we'll open up for public remarks one more St oh you do okay okay I I've been on record before saying that I don't think it's the best use of that land to make it a park because you've got a park at the corner another Park two blocks away so you're essentially going to have three parks within a three block radius I don't know that you could name any other place in the city where something like that or even close to something like that happens I think that maybe y'all should consider either another spot so that you don't take up this land naming something that already exists after Dr Price changing the name of another Park and a perfect example example is simply because it is the newest one poo park it doesn't have anybody's name on it it's simply poo and you you wouldn't have to break up this land to make something like that happen when you are talking about land as it relates to availability in not only the city of South Miami but Miami Dade County taking something that could be buildable as either affordable or Workforce housing and taking originally 3,000 and now 11,000 square ft to make it into a park at the corner of a park two blocks from a park seems like a not a very sound fiduciary decision when it comes to the city if we want to throw um land value and value in general as could be had for that property and disregard it that definitely is is a choice to be made but I think that rather than being locked into this particular plot of land for whatever reason there should maybe be consideration for other things that can happen that will have a similar impact Okay commiss g mayor what I was what I was thinking is that I don't know that we're going to have a public I you know affordable housing component there just because the sheer construction cost cost that we're seeing and I don't know what they look like we we no one's come to me at all with I I I have had one person already approach me about it I have I have a meeting on Thurday about it too but I haven't seen it okay so my the way I wanted to dissect is maybe a little bit differently was maybe allocate a percentage of the lot just in general uh whether it's 20% of the lot dedicated to a part that's dedicated to because I don't know what the designs are going to look like we don't know what our opportunities are going to come down the 5 maybe it's a three-story building that can go there that you know it's affordable housing another you know not Mo what's the other building there right across the street some Park Madison Madison M Square maybe some another Madison Madison Square there with a park allocation there dedicated to Dr Price I just don't know what the square footage there is if we if we go ahead and designate 11,000 square feet strictly to a park there it might diminish the opportunity to do something else so maybe we do percentage square footage wise maybe it's you know a dedicated number if you want to dedicate 10 or 11,000 square F feet but not not so specifically on a plot plus these plots aren't really allocated that way anyway so we would have to redo this anyway you understand what I'm saying no I understand what you're saying I mean I I again respectfully disagree but at this point I just want to hear from the public and then we'll bring it back and close the conversation so what we'll do now is open up the floor for public remarks on this item Mr MC you were first on the list is followed by grey Reed so if you want to queue up and we'll welcome anyone else to come up and speak sir your name and address for the record please James MC 6210 Southwest 63 terrorist right behind the unity wall there you go guys I listening to you guys discuss Mar Williamson historical property um and I have to say this uh working in the C area and living here for so long listen listening to uh the folks in the area and I'm now a South Miami resident but uh you know I'm not from South Miami but I'm a South Miami and now I had the pleasure of talking to Mr Marsha Williamson's last surviving daughter Ruth the stories that she would tell me about how her mother Elanor planted those trees in that field and how Mr Mara Williamson and her years took care of that property um it was a place where the community would gather do things get free it was more than mango trees there it was avocado trees it was fruit different kinds of fruit trees there and he protected those trees to the extent that he had to run people away and I've heard uh stories about that but the historical significance to that property is so great and this African-American Community really needs something that they can hold on to because what we what we have been trying to do is revamp that historical significance of the martial wi area we need a piece of that property to remain uh Green Space and connect that to the meaning of Madison Square with Mr Marshall Williamson coming from Madison Florida with the scholarship that we have Madison Willam scholarship with the history of this african-amer on that scholarship and everybody that applies for this scholarship has to write an essay on Mr Marshall wierson and his achievements and all the things that he's done for this community including and it's not really documented the school the the the the uh the clinic The Rosy Wesley clinic named after the Midwife the senior citizens building and I can go on and on but the historical significance is so great and we have lost so much history in this area so I ask you to keep that in consideration uh we don't want to lose that piece now the original plan that y'all was talking about was put put Before You by our CRA department and the original plans was to continue that line from the historic martial Williamson house all the way to the corner of 64 just like he said and the rest of it on the backside of mron closing okay thank you we wanted to keep that but okay my original um uh reason for coming up here is to support um uh aner price uh number two and I want to uh support uh uh Julio also thank you okay keep the uh historical significance in mind thank you very much Mr Reed you recognized yes I I simply want to support the naming for Anna price that she's given so much to this city you know not only is the first African-American mayor only African-American mayor but all the work that you did with the Upward Bound program and the Marshall Williamson scholarship and the community relations board that she's just poured her heart and soul into this community and I think that honoring her would um is the right thing and I say this in a very you know heartfelt way it's it's not just a kind of resume it's it's who she is as a person and I think she embodies the qualities that we that we value thank you thank you for the comments Mr Levi Kelly want to come forward Mr commiss Watson do you want to come up as well Mr Kelly good evening be by Kelly 6250 Southwest 60 Avenue here in South Miami um I've had discussions with Dr Price about the naming and so forth and she was appreciative of having that named after her but she also her main goal was and I served on the SI board with her was to make sure there was affordable housing on the west side of the parment that was her main goal she said anything beyond that was gravy okay now to be frank with you she uh would would not s sit here and say okay named the park after me that's not inprise but she's done so much for the community in terms of her dedication her ability to communicate with those who at one time on the board resisted anything in that Community she was able to win some of them over because of her vision for the city as a whole that was an a price I mean I just U I think it's it's a no-brainer that we U sat here and and and debate the issue I think uh but I also understand the the the issues of the the footage and and and and and the setbacks and so forth that has to be relook that but certainly I think the added value would be to have a green space not only for whatevers to come down the pack in terms of housing there but the present housing you have now we're losing as much green space as we have now whether we have a park at a couple of Corners uh we we I mean we just don't have it I woke up uh a week ago and I heard this baming outside of my window not 200 yards up the street from me there's another house going up in a bacon lot one of what I call the matchbox the stick box houses right on the corner you know another uh open fresh air space gone we're losing our our canopies because of uh all the quick building and so forth but I think that uh she would applaud the fact that the the the the thanking here is to put some affordable housing in that in that particular area but also I would applaud the the fact that she needs to have something recognizable for her that's sustainable for a long period of time thank you thank you sir for your comments good evening good evening uh John Edward Smith 7531 Southwest 64 Court um indeed I I I follow with the praise of Dr Anna price I worked with her in her mayoral campaign I worked with her on many different issues um for the betterment of the community so naming something after Dr Price uh I think is is critical her birthday is coming up in a couple weeks February 17th and we share not the same day we share the same octogenarian scope and U I know in in speaking with her a year or so ago when there was some talk about a a a site she did indicate the importance of making sure that we had uh affordable housing uh in in that area so I would support that as well how you how you divide the property good luck Solomon thank you thank you for your comment sir Miss Powell on behalf of the uh South Miami black cultural Affairs Foundation Incorporated I'd like to speak as the president and also I have a personal connection with Dr Anna price when I was in graduate school at the Ohio State University we just happen to be the national champions I thought I'd throw that in oh no okay uh I think please take John please reduce her speaking Time by one minute I just want to say that she was instrumental and she was a mentor to me during that time while I was in graduate school I had the pleasure of doing an internship through the up with bound program and uh I was telling her son and one of uh another gentleman that's with us this evening we worked in that program together and she really changed and transformed the lives of a lot of young people um from all backgrounds so in terms of uh and our particular uh organization is about historical preservation because I think that history is important you don't know where you're going unless you know where you've been and that was a famous quote of John Smith a very famous African-American uh historian I think it's quite important that and I would like to Echo uh what Mr mccant said I I think it's important to look at historical significance because location might not be important to be important to certain individuals sometimes because we don't have a Sentimental connection if you will and that that's not you know coming from a negative place I think is important so I think location historical significance and also preservation of a very thriving community and I think that that is something that's very very important uh that you need to consider so please keep that in mind sometimes uh a place you know uh the location is very important because it has a historical significance history-wise if I recall correctly I grew up in South Miami I went to jar Le Elementary School when it was segregated I was one of the first uh classes to go to South Miami junior high so history-wise i' I've lived history you know um and I think it's important when we talk about history that we think about uh the sentimental value and also the value and impact that it can have on a community so I do want to speak in behalf and in support of of the resolution perhaps other details you can work out but I do think that needs to be decided doesn't need to be taed again it needs to be decided this evening thank you thank you who's next commissioner Watson you're recognized good evening everybody good evening I was halfway on my way getting ready to go overseas and I realized the day was the date that I was supposed to come and speak to this issue um a lot of you guys may not know me I was at the U celebration Community celebration last week Miss Walker Gail Gail Williams yeah Gil Williams and um and uh young man who was behind me um spoke and of course I have my my good friend the mayor who at some point very very long time ago very another life lifeim ago worked for me in uh on a project for my day County my name is Jeffrey Watson I grew up and had the fortunate uh opportunity to grow up in three places Liberty City Overtown C of grow uh and in part South Miami University of Miami campus with uh then before she was Dr Price before she was R price before she was mayor price Anna price uh I met her when I was 15 years old she is playing a lot of seeds I have been going on to be the chief of staff of the mayor of Miami current mayor's dad uh assistant president in government Affairs in the White House President Clinton and City of Miami commission I'm not sure where you're going to put your affordable or IR reticence about the naming of a street I just saw on the County Commission agenda Kim Griffin has been in town less than a year and a half they just naming speet after him and he hadn't done nearly as much in this town other than his money to be named by anything I want to say that Dr Price has birth and I can't say that she is responsible for all but a great deal of where I am and where I've been and why I'm here today very important I wish she would have been here those three times you tried to do this before over the last year and a half to smile about it and see me speak to her ability and your ability to honor her uh for her son who's here and one of my colleagues in up bound I think it's a great thing to do um because people do change uh when you do a young but at least you know what she has done and her beloved South is always on her mind so whether it's affordable housing for the plot or where you name the street the three FS or four FS vote it should be done post haste as soon as you can so that she can now at least hear that has been done in her honor thank you very much thank you for your comments thank you for being here SE please don't be shy come on up good evening mayor Commission vice mayor um my name is Eda Cox conron I am a product of Reverend Dr Anna price um Jeff forgot that I was one of his um class members to we were all in Upward Bound from 1972 7374 and Gerald and I uh worked for her in 76 she said you had to complete two years of college then you can come work for us and we did that um working for her it was like sometimes you had two or three jobs she made sure you were working she is totally 100% responsible for me coming out of the ghetto on food stamps going to college uh through her Upward Bound program we went to school at the University of Miami on Saturdays uh in return we got a stien for $750 which we could have a really really good time but knowing her personally I was her babysitter she had two children at the time Alice and Stacy I can attest to the fact that she helped hundreds if not thousands of us from homestead to North Miami and North Miami even City of Miami too um she always had hundred of US every year and she exposed us to everything you can imagine that we never would have got to do she took us to colleges in other states uh she exposed us to plays concerts um we were fed well uh we were educated on Saturday mornings we had to take classes math reading uh she made sure we took SATs whatever needed to be done to get you to the next level she did that and unfortunately um when her daughter got the opportunity to go to college um she was tragically killed in a car accident and most of her students hundreds and hundreds of us came back to support her but she has worked absolutely tirelessly to help so many kids so many students not just us but when she was working at the University of Miami she helped a lot of athletes um through that graduate go on to the next level so uh if anybody wants to know anything about her we three are products of Reverend Dr Anna price thank you for your comments sir you recognized thank you I'm Gerald darling I reside in 3500 wal Grove Road Memphis Tennessee I'm a native Floridian I a retired police chief from City of Miami uh Schoolboard police and retired from Memphis Tennessee school police and Safety Division uh retired there as a chief so over 42 years in law enforcement uh right now uh with working with Dr Price uh right out of college I was I work directly with her as the counselor coordinator for the entire organization uh Jeff and I when I would come home we would make sure that we took her to lunch dinner and just thanked her and loved on her for what she did for us uh right now I'm retired but I had the opportunity to come back under mayor Caro's office and work with her her son Hollis uh and run the engagement and Outreach division a division that they developed for me to assist them in getting all of the Community Action agencies up and running which we were able to get done in about three or four months so I'm officially retired again uh from doing that but I just want to thank you all and it's great to stand in front of a a commission and a a group of distinguished Commission again and just thank you for your consideration of this and Dr Price when I would come home she would say Geral please uh not whatever you can do not to be pushy but talk to him and see what you can get them to do about that situation and I'm here I have to head back to Memphis right after the Super Bowl but I'm here and thank you all so much for his consideration thank you thank you sir for your comments thank you for being here Sir Mr Mayor good evening sir Commissioners uh thank you for this opportunity I do have a bias I'll admit to that again just your name and address of the record I apologize I've been too informal and our Clerk's going to give me an earful after this meeting so thank you um but speaking for my mother um this would be a tremendous honor for her and if it is to be bestowed upon her I would ask that you please do it while she can enjoy it and participate in it her commitment to South Miami is decades old she was truly a trail Placer U and most important my mother never wanted to see anybody left behind she was for originally South Miami Heights corl Gables South Miami where she spent the majority of her life so I would ask that you please consider her commitment to the city of South Miami and her ability to be recognized that would mean a great deal to me that would mean a great deal to her and as I leave I want to say Mr Mayor when next I see my mother I'll certainly let her know how often you refer to her [Laughter] age thank you for your comments uh would anyone else like to address this Commission on this item anyone in the chambers seeing n and clerk is there anyone online anyone online please raise your virtual hand I see no one online we will close public remarks colleagues let's go around one more time I I'd like to offer a modification to my prior promotion uh commissioner Kai I best I can ascertain what I again not to put a definitive number on it but I would like to see not less in the Eastern 80 ft of that Northeastern portion of the lot be reserved for of the park that would put it in parallel at worst uh with 6518 Southwest 60th Avenue which is the smaller parcel just south of the Williamson Homestead so I'm not sure where that puts us from a square footage perspective but at least would mirror the condition on both sides of that uh historic Homestead okay that would my modification to my motion uh was there a second Madam clerk to my to my motion okay uh with that modification would anyone like to Second and then we can go around for a closing round of conversation may may uh through the mayor may may I add uh another motion as well these trees that are there are all are historical trees um Mr MCC that um Mr Marshall Williamson PL planted his wife planted so um I am I am agreeing with with your motion also can we make it a a motion to protect those trees no uh yeah part of my motivation for wanting to at least preserve some of this park spaces to preserve some Legacy of those trees okay all right so as long as the trees are preserved I'm I'm I'm good so I'm sorry can you repeat what your your lot was again so again I believe that the lot to the South 6318 is roughly 80 ft deep so I would suggest that we reserve not less than the easternmost 80 ft of that North portion for a passive Park uh named in honor of Dr Price okay if we at some point decide we want to go beyond that we'll have that flexibility to look at a replat for the site okay okay so I I do need you guys have a question sir yeah I was just wondering because I'm looking at this right here yes and it has it at 105t is that from the street I just want to make sure we've got the numbers right so let's do this let's amend the motion I I I see it's 15 ft I don't know that looks like it is the my eyes are not that good anymore Mr Mayor do you make want to draw on that and give it to the City attorney and they can figure it out I think he knows what I'm referring to 6318 this was which is the parcel just to the South page 54 on the agenda he want to the same as that yeah because then it makes it a perfect you for the development and in fact if I could just please go ahead don't take it so like if if you look at this hold on a second guys so just to ask before you speak sorry about that uh no it's okay Mr C attorney are you clear on the intention it's basically to mirror the Western lot line of 6318 I I believe it was I'm going off what's on the county records they they reflect a dimension of I think 55 by 80 for that lot but you know again just to mirror the Western lot line whatever the dimension is 6318 so if you went on mi.gov and you did a a parcel search you'll see that I think it's a 55 by 80 Dimension 58 right 6518 my apologies got it okay okay and according to we can then the survey seems to have a a discrepancy it might be because it's measuring for the center line versus the the boundary line I'm not sure but the intention is to at least mirror the condition of the parcel south of the Williamson Homestead so that we have some symmetry between both conditions got it okay approximately 80 ft from the post dedication correct okay got it okay so that's my motion um is there a second I'll second that Mo okay so move by myself second by commissioner Caye um do we want to go left to right un comments to close I don't have any more comments thank you commissioner Cory anything you like to say no I mean i' just like to say that that Western portion looking at the survey is more appealing than it seems on that map because the distance from the street on the other side is further so it is providing more room even than we would have on the park um and that U shape obviously allows for a little bit heavier development on the edges including um where the corner lot is which you would expect to be the the um highest intensity so I do like the orientation obviously I'm I'm a huge fan of naming the park after Dr Price preserving that area preserving those trees and highlighting a historic property in the city of South Miami so I'm just very happy and honored to be able to vote on this thank you commissioner Rodriguez okay commissioner K you recognized yeah again uh vice mayor said it it's an honor for me to actually finally do this um we've been trying to do this for a while uh Dr Price has been nothing but sweet caring nurturing we've had many coffees at Denny's I don't know why she likes Denny still but that's where we have our coffees um so I'm I'm really happy that we're probably doing this now moving forward so uh we have my second vote we can go ahead and thank you I I I just want to say in closing I'm um I think it's appropriate in Black History Month to recognize our City's first African-American mayor um but again as she would say as she has in the past this is not just about her and I'm not doing it just for an a price it's about what she embodies in the history of the city and a neighborhood that in my short political career has changed dramatically since 2018 when I knocked on 25,000 doors in 8 months in my first or sorry six months in my first race uh I walked this neighborhood six times and between that and my M race in just a few years four years later the neighborhood went I'd say from eight and 10 doors being African-American to under probably you know six and 10 doors being occupied by an African-American household so for me this is also about preserving the legacy of the neighborhood taking two pillars uh representatives of that Community Mr Williamson and Reverend Dr Anna price and trying to preserve a portion of the city to kind of honor and memorialize that history um I make no apologies for preserving land for Parks uh there are many other parts of the city where we could use a lot more park space if we've got one that's got more than every other it's had a lot less of a lot of other stuff it'd be great to keep uh land for for public parks there and and we all know the economic value of parks and what it means in for neighboring property value so I think this is value creative not only from a social and historical perspective but from an economic perspective and um you know I I I think it also preserves what's been a long-standing mission and opportunity for the CRA which maybe under the leadership of this board will finally come to life which is developing a portion of it it will be a shamed to lose some of those fruit trees but preserving something so we can actually again keep members of this community thriving in this community and hopefully will'll be some affordable housing here in the not too distant future so with that we've moved the item we've second it and Madam clerk um let me just close by saying thanking all of you for coming out now on multiple occasions to Jeff Watson who's been a longtime friend and gave me an opportunity to work on an Empower Zone application now 30 years ago which probably you know seeded some of this uh interest in public service and you know born of the love that Dr Price poured into him you know thank you all for coming and for um being part of this moment Madam clerk if you can call the role please yes commissioner C yes commissioner Rodriguez yes um commissioner bones no vice mayor Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes item passes 4 one thank you very much Madam clerk uh item N1 are we required to take any action or just need to be read into the record which one I'm sorry item N1 or no okay so uh just for the record have it noted that Sally Phillips has been appointed by commissioner Rodriguez to the green task force um given that we've got uh Mr muet and his team waiting in the wings here online uh colleagues like to call Item M2 for discussion if you could read that into the record Madam clerk yes I'm sponsored by commissioner Rodriguez current scope timing and approach of the proia placemaking project for a Sunset Drive and adjacent street thank you uh commissioner Rodriguez you asked for the discussion item so I'll recognize you to start the conversation thank you mayor um as we discussed in the sh meeting um we I met with um Fabian and Manuel last week and um you it just came to light that we have reached a point where we have no CDs approved on our Sunset Drive uh redesign and at the same time it does not include any design work as far as I'm concerned and I'm I hope I'm wrong on this um uh any design work when it comes to the 73rd Street and the adjacent streets so the reason I bring this forth is to have a discussion with uh the fellow Commissioners and the mayor to try to get this rolling and and get 73rd and some of these adjacent streets um get work going on on design and um and moving forward that way when it comes time to proceed we don't start from scratch we basically already have design have um you know what we need in place in order to go straight to CDs and for those who don't know CDs mean construction documents okay Co colleagues do we want to start with just a recap from the administration on what is actually in the scope of our current engagement for PL Serbia just to kind of level set the convers because I I I I want to understand I've had a conversation Mr about where the gaps are I I concur with commissioner Rodriguez we want to move all this stuff forward as quickly as possible but what does our what does task two and three cover in terms of actual work product so I know who's best in best position to elaborate that Mr manager or or our consultant I I'll I'll let Plus Serbia kind of fill in a little bit as as to you know the work that they're doing and what can we expect moving forward but as as a just as a reminder uh tasks once through four um which includes up to managing public participation efforts uh with some conceptual designs were approved construction drawings uh as commissioner Rodriguez mentioned uh were not and so I think uh your conversation today commissioner Rodriguez if I understand it you you're trying to understand at a given point when we end up with a concept or design for onet Drive where would the adjacent Street be at that point in time and it's your understanding that maybe it won't be at that same spot necessarily and so we want to be able to shed some light on from uh hamu from plusia on their work and that then can influence your conversation as okay how do you Chad let me let me ask a more direct question so just to kind of make sure we get in the right frame here so I'm I'm looking at the description of task three and it's got I Circle one two three four items um planning level concept Alternatives three and there's a allotment of uh allotment for that there are there's a line item for typical Street sections and a value for that work then there's a line item for preliminary concept alternative renderings and sketches and then a separate line item for con concept alternative refinement so my takeaway when we approve this item from that is that we would have essentially concept plans for for concept level plans for all the streets in the Target area um again those would need to be validated and with some survey wake in the future so they could actually then be moved to um construction design but we would have a working understanding of what the scope of the rideway could accommodate by way of sidewalk dimensions and streets Street infrastructure to use a broad term so um m is my understanding correct if not what do those four line items entail by way of actual work product thank you Mr Mayor Commissioners in essence the project focuses on Sunset Drive as you all know um the the the the rest of the project as it pertains to the other streets includes some I'm getting very distracted with this it incl includes uh an illustrative approach uh so that you will have an idea of what the other streets should look like based on uh the design of 73rd so 70 sorry of uh of Sunset Drive um so Sun Sunset Drive would drive the uh let's say the identity of the rest of the downtown or the hometown District now in terms of the work product uh what we were planning and what is part of our uh scope is to provide for you enough information to um ascertain the uh General elements for those streets as you as you all know we don't have surveys for all those streets so we can't quantify things all we can do is provide like I said guidance uh and general design parameters which which we will which we call U concept design okay but that but again the concept design is applicable to the entirety of the district correct yes okay so in terms of iterating the next level to address I think commissioner Rodriguez's goal what is the gap of work that needs to be performed is it just survey work that needs to be added to have a refinement of what the actual RightWay dimensions are uh on those streets that are inclusive of Sunset Drive no not just the survey work once we have the surve work work we would have to uh begin design uh and design development so that we take them closer to that construction documents phase um and that that requires some some some additional work between concept and construction documents we typically uh look at um schematic design development and schematics okay it it can for those of us who are not planners or Engineers uh which is the majority of the board can you explain to us what the level of work is the difference between a concept plan and design development a concept plan basically gives you an idea of what the place would look like uh we we're what is in our so we're talking about materials the type of street Furniture lighting fixtures what what what is inclusive in that scope of work in in the concept no we're not providing materials we're giving we're we're giving because those materials you the the idea the way that this project was uh was set was put together was that those would be informed by the work that we're doing on sunet drive so if if we're not but Mr we we're not designing we're not we're not we're not advancing that phase of the work without advancing the work on Sunset Drive so we will be select are will we not be selecting materials for sun to drive Street furniture and an aesthetic yes Mr Mayor I I'm sorry maybe I misspoke okay we are taking Sunset Drive um uh up to construction documents so the information that we're going to get from Sunset Drive um since the beginning of the project it was considered that that information would then uh apply to the other streets in other words Sunset Drive would inform uh the the look and feel of the other streets so at this stage with the with the scope that we have and the tasks that we have been approved we are not providing materials or or any different materials than would be included in on Sunset Drive if if I may yes go ahead I'm hoping that this clarifies it so concept design gives you an idea of what the place looks like it doesn't give you any details it doesn't give you any numbers it doesn't give you any Dimensions um on Sunset Drive we we are giving you all those but on the rest of the streets were not um and and it was set this way part because of the timeline that we had and because there was an interest to move sunset uh and have a focus on Sunset once Sunset is is is uh once we we come to May and we deliver to you Sunset Drive um up to the level that we have in our scope uh then uh then the construction documents can begin for Sunset Drive for the other streets it it would require additional work additional design work work to be able to take it up to um a level that then can be catted and put into construction documents so I'm I'm clear and I think I want to add another observation to your comment which is beyond Sun of driving the priority implicit in my choosing that as the uh as the first alternative was that it was also the street I thought would with the exception of the frontage along Sunset Place would be the one that was least impacted by future development so Mo the one that most likely we are going to have to spend our own money to have it remade right the other streets we are hoping will be touched by development and we will share in the cost of right their evolution so I think that was another reason certainly why I wanted to prioritize the work on that Frontage we excuse me I just want to speak for myself maybe some folks had some other ideas but we um wanted to prioritize that street so with with that as an understanding I I wanted just to walk away from this conversation assured and certainly if there's a conversation about what other work we need to authorize which I'm certainly in agreement with authorizing I think it's task four here which will get us to is it task four no task five which would get us to CDs on suned drive at some point um I just want to walk away understanding that the product we will have from the design Development and Construction design phase for sun to drive would allow third parties to in understand the materials and the elements that we want to see developed on other frontages throughout this District yes that is correct as long as again you use sunet drive as your guiding uh cor correct yes yeah okay so through the go ahead through the through the mayor and um how you doing Juan um so if if I'm correct you need authoriz ation to go to CDs once you present in May corre after you present in May correct correct t five has not been okay so we got that understood right now on 73rd in the adjacent streets you are basically at just concept level where the uh Mr Mayor and Commissioners where [Music] I'm uh I guess asking for is can we move forward with design because I I know you're saying that Sunset Drive is going to basically Drive the other streets but for example on 73rd um if I saw the the conceptual drawing shown to me by Fabian emuel we're consider you're considering doing brick pavers along 73rd uh we also spoke about ballards to have be have the ability to close off portions of the street in order to do whatever may be markets or events and stuff like that so that's why I'm saying I don't think that just with Sunset Place design we can give it to everybody who's going to develop on 73rd and say here you go this is what we're doing because it could be a completely different design I think for us to move forward um we should put uh give the goahead to go into design for 73rd and then once we have the design then we can give that to the developers because they know exactly hey we well you know what what has been chosen you know we go through the same process as we did last Tuesday correct we bring it up to the residents they pick which one they like and and that's how we get to a final design correct correct so I would that that's that's my recommendation is to bring 73rd in the in the in the adjacent streets to that point and then you know the again the developers will be able to know exactly what it is that they got do commission K thanks so just may I provide maybe a little bit more of an option as well commissioner Rodriguez so the concept of us going all the way to CD is that we can start getting pricing uh at the contractor level is very important because that way we can guesstimate what it's going to take moving forward right um and if I if I can ask just as a point of information I don't mean to interrupt but to you or to Mr mide whoever's at what level of design 30% design can we get order like a good order of magnitude or is it 50% CDs when when would as a designer one feel comfortable that you have a good understandings on quantities and materials well 100% to get an absolute you know lock down price no doubt but I I I want to understand whether we are going to have the ability to execute on more than sun to drive so to kind of get a read the room at what point I Know M Cabrera who who can answer this question for us as to at what point you can get a a good order of magnitude cost on the on the proposed design while she's walking up be yes yeah so I think that what it's important for us to understand that in detail design that we're going through the cost analysis for example I if I remember correctly Coral Gables went through a certain decision criteria to choose their actual pavers that happen to be matter of Marvel and that's where the price a lot of this stuff went up in significant price those are the cost analysis that we need to do when we're doing engineering and evaluation that's this that has to happen in detail design I don't know what the percentage is but that's where we start calculating so just so we're using the same terminology I'm going to get confused sorry what is detail design mean is that design develop I mean uh design development sorry that's my no problem I just want to make sure I'm I'm following the conversation so the next step from concept so basically the design is is put in Place understood okay so I don't know I mean I think that the materials that you use will make a huge difference on cost but knowing what's going to be going on underground any drainage any and then that once that's set the rest is more controlled right you could just use papers that aren't as expensive or things like that but you really really have the good sense of what's going on underground and yeah the alignments of streets and stuff like that that has to be done I don't know what percentage you would have that completed because you know that's not that's more like by the civil engineer not by The Architects so you know for the civil engineer they probably wanted a 100% CDs but you know what do you guys have that set as for your your civil yes so you're correct H we don't coordinate um any uh any engineering at concept level that's done at a later phase and that's which phase conru schematic or design development or construction during schematic we begin to uh coordinate and then in construction documents that's when everything is put together yeah the design development is like a 35% set of drawings so you really don't have much you need to be in construction documents to have a better sense and you know probably 75% cities to get something reason able the Civil has to be pretty far along would would you agree with that yes we I mean civil is is an important aspect of it and and but before a civil we would we would need uh surveys to begin the design work so that's why I'm saying that the concept um Commissioners and Mr Mayor um is not based on actual dimensions we're going to use the the information information that we have available to us which are Aerials and uh and you and and inperson measurements that we can take but we are not going to have uh any measurements now Mr Mayor you were asking me um what kind of metrics uh can we take out of this concept they're going to be very general um again because we don't have the data uh that that would drive the Project's budget or that would drive you know the no I I I I understand that what I'm what I'm what I'm struggling here is I do not we you know we inherited a series of projects where we went to 100% construction documents only to realize at the end of that process that we spent a couple million dollars that we had no ability to build but it was what we wanted so we're I I I certainly and I believe this board in general you know CHR Rodriguez is joining us is trying to avoid repeating those errors right what I would like to understand right is as I'm looking at it to get to just unsed drive to get to full through full schematic design is another $60,000 to get through design development I'm doing rough math is $100,000 right so I I would like to avoid spending $160,000 on streets when to find out at the end of the party that we don't have the means and the your turn to build them because the other experience I've had recently here with managing capital projects is that we do the design it sits on the Shelf three four five years conditions in the field change and those plans are in large measure worthless because you've got to redesign them all over again to be reflective of existing conditions that's my only reticence in fully embracing what you're suggesting because I want to get this all done tomorrow but I also realized the sepic to sewer project to me has been a real Learning lesson right where we fully permitted a set and you know again SRS probably did a fantastic job with that prior set but they sat they sat dormant for 3 years and you know a bunch of new homes in the subject area got built and fuel conditions had to be Revisited to make sure that all the specs were correct so um and I also want to avoid spending money where we can leverage the private sector to do it for us for free so I want to get to a base level of design whether that's schematic design or design development where you tell me you can stop spending money there and the developer that's going to build the adjacent RightWay knows I I don't think they need to know the quantities but they know the materials the street Furniture type the light Poes that we want to use trash bins right how we like to see them aggregated on a typical section based on assumptions and they spend money designing those sections for us where we can avoid spending the money ourselves that's the kind of product I thought we were getting to I'm now a little bit disconcerted that that's may not be be where we're headed with this project I I I don't feel any compulsion to spend all the money and all these other streets on SK on Full Construction design because I I believe my goal has been to spend the money on Sunset in part because I don't think it's going to change hopefully will not change all that much the rest of the downtown I expect our our district to change substantially and I'm I'm I'm hoping that you know we're doing we're spending less than 50% designing these sections but the people are picking up our wishes our aspirations and executing it for us so there's a big difference in if what plus is supposed to be delivering to us our construction documents that we could go and build get a permit from there's no reason for us to get construction documents from PL Seria if you're going to have the adjacent property owner do the work whatever improvements need to be done to the RightWay as part of their construction if the city's going to do it we need construction documents to really really move forward and know what the we watched if we watched all the discussions at least everything that came out of my mouth when I talked about a bond was that we're not going to pay for 100% of the constru of the work to improve the streetcape of the Town Center or whatever we're calling it now the SOI District right the goal was always to leverage other people's money whether that was grant money or whether that was private investment we are going to pay for some portion of it because we're going to want to have it done on a timeline that's more conducive with our own but there going to be other projects that are going to come along and we have adopted a standard whatever that is whether it's conceptual design or you tell me it's got to be schematic design so we can give them the requisite Dimensions so we know that all this stuff works together or whether it's design development but I I certainly don't think it has to be construction uh documents so I'm just trying to as a lay person who's not an engineer just a run-of-the-mill uh country land use lawyer understand what particular threshold I need to authorize my consultant to so that we can get to something where you know Avalon Bay comes in and says okay we know exactly what you want from an aesthetic and material type and they they basically then spend the money on design development or CDs that's what they would have to do they would have to spend the money to do design development and construction documents that's like when you're really getting the engineering involved to get down to the nitty-gritty that what the slopes have to be what whatever it is but should we be authoriz schematic design for the district and I asked that of Mr muette and and you so to kind of address commissioner Rodriguez's initial question so if if I may through the mayor yeah sure um at when it comes to Sunset Place I mean we're getting the final designs well close to we'll probably be what 90% maybe little changes here and there as far as Sunset which will be ready to go to CDs I don't I think those should move forward with CDs um my recommendation is that we go to the design development drawings on the adjacent streets just so we can give whatever projects are coming in the future they know what it is that we're planning for we don't have to go to CDs on the 73rd and adjacent because we're not building it if we're going to give it to developers we have to give them enough information so they can do it so for that we would have to get to design development drawings M Mr Mayor if I may there's there's another there's an alternative as well which is design guidelines say the design guidelines for 73 it's no different than um than than a zoning code basically and if you're planning which is what I'm hearing to have developers um little by little develop their buildings and improve the street um I'm sorry can I see the the I'm seeing myself um it's a little disconcerting um if if that's what you're planning uh the ideal solution I think think might be to develop the design um further than concept uh but shy of of uh of schematic so just design development and then put those into design guidelines that would allow the city to communicate with future developers what it is that they need to put in front of their buildings so that you have a cohesive uh public realm right that's what I saying it depends on the product that you want so if you're going to build it unique construction documents but if you're just going to have the developers build it as they come in and do it which is what we're doing with the landscape master plan like we're going to have design guidelines the streets should look like this the SES should look like this but nobody's actually going through and designing it it's just overall the trees will be this size they'll be you know adjacent to the street the sidewalk will be on this side but nobody's designing any of that there no was that was my expectation of what this exercise would yield for every street buts on to drive at Sun to drive at some point we would go through full construction documents so that that was my expectation of what we would walk away from from this exercise so clearly bad on me for not understanding it uh I don't know what any I don't know what everyone else's expectation was I'll let let my colleagues speak to the item yes commissioner if that is not where we are at maybe we can ask Juan and his team from plus Serbia to come back to us and say turn left here you know or change this or do that the scope that we need scope modification we need exactly before we say we're going to keep spending more money correct commissioner we're happy to do that I I think I think that I mean we're very clear on what it is that we're doing um but I I I understand that there is um that that that there may be a uh a way to provide for you uh better guidance in the future with a product that we put together and that might requ there is a little Gap there so if you want we can put together a a a memo or a or or what the scope is missing right now um to show you and the product that you probably that that that would probably serve you best thank you Comm Cory yes commiss guy yeah go ahead Cory so you're just talking about having all that information for 7 7 thir Street or elsewhere anywhere no I think I think districtwide I mean I think we want people who so for example in a world I Envision that's probably realistic the east side of dor Avenue will probably not be changed we you know we know the west side will probably to the midline will probably be touched by the Redevelopment of the you know BTS uh Deli Lane SL Einstein site right but the east side will uh of that street will probably remain in its current condition unless we intervene right just like the frontage in front of the uh Center that has cories and the liquor store pretty much right so all Sunset Drive but there will be segments maybe this South segment of 73rd to US1 where we've got those little scale buildings that may not turn over anytime soon we may want to go ahead and authorize at some point you know design develop schematic design design development into construction documents because the segments that we want anticipate building I do not want to spend the money to design every section to the an degree when we can likely leverage future development to do some of that a lot of that work for us so if it makes sense if design guidelines get us to a point where someone can take those Concepts understand them and then execute them on our behalf I certainly think that's the wisest way to spend our money yes this is no different than the zoning code the zoning code doesn't give you construction documents for projects um so a design guidelines doesn't you know it it basically establishes some rules and parameters um that that allow the city uh and and the staff to guide each developer as to what they need to build in front of the building to be again cohesive and and and coordinated um so you're not we wouldn't be doing construction documents in fact I I think that it would be presumptuous to put together construction documents for the entire city because as you said you're not going to build it yourself um so all you need to do is put those guidelines so that their construction documents each developer's construction documents uh match and and are coordinated with with the neighbors and down the street Etc you're recognized um and I I I agree with so this is where I kind of wanted to get to I just didn't I just didn't want this to lag and then we're sitting here four years from now and we still haven't you know only son that drive is done and we're like oh we we never move forward on the other one so this is perfect this is where I I wanted to get this discussion going um I just let's also take into consideration you know areas where developers aren't going to go like where the parking garage is you know that's going to be on us I don't think anybody's going to take that so let's take that into consideration as far as maybe what design we would want around the parking garage or areas or buildings that we know are are going to stay so that's it they just yeah those will be future capital projects for the I think I think that's probably not a I think it's a wise assessment I I agree there's it would be included in the design guidelines that he will be no no no so I think I think I think what he's saying is going beyond that so construction documents well no like design yeah let me let me just let me just try to summarize I see a couple different work products right one work product is a revised scope that provides for the development of design guidelines and then there's maybe another scope where we identify sections that are likely not going to be impacted by development where we may want to authorize right in phase in you know in sections get a price on schematic design uh design development and then construction document dation for those sections so we can have a conversation with you know your team about what those sections might be and maybe we can prioritize which ones we would want to begin to authorize you know further document development on am I am I okay we're on the same page just make one final point to you I mean I would be happy to review their scope but there's no point in moving with even design development drawings if you're not going to move forward with construction zero I I agree and I think one of the reasons I'm eager to release task five is to get start to get a sense of what the real cost of these improvements is going to be to understand how many of those segments we might be able to execute based on our existing cash on hand and future capacity right so so mayor just work quick yes I got I got bonich and I have you afterwards I apologize commissioner um I I just want to remind us that originally when we were having this conversation plus Serbia was actually very clever in putting together for us the different streets that you know all of these different colors on the streets and I I don't remember what it was they had Sunset they had one over from Sunset because we said this is the whole area so they said this is your universe and they did a grid of all of our streets so while we are having that convers I think it would behoove us to look at that document because that then very clearly shows us what is actually the universe when we all started talking what that Universe looked like because it wasn't just Sunset and 73rd and I don't know if if you guys recall the conversation where I said if we were to do all of this what would we be looking at and it was like I don't know 3050 million and so if you remember that conversation exactly conversation so we're not going to pay for all of it because we're going have someone else build it for us exactly and during that conversation we had that visual so I think that while we have these conversations it's important for us to look at that visual so we know when we started what our universe was and because we're stuck now on two streets when it's way more than two streets we're no we're stuck on one street apparently no so let me let me keep some order commissioner C I'm happy to come back to you commissioner Corey you've been I want to I don't want to ignore you okay Mr guy you recognized um so we're just just make sure we're Landing the plane on this we're moving forward with sunset drive all the way right up to CDs right that's that seems to be that seems to be the will the board yes yeah great commissioner Rodriguez so um commissioner bonich no I think the guidelines would also go into all the adjacent streets yeah yeah yeah so it it will not just be 73rd it'll be yeah that's what I mean that originally it showed a universe of students and that's that's the recommendation is to get the guidelines for everything for the whole district and um and I think um commissioner Kai I believe we want to go through CS or because right now they're going up to CS as of May up to CS we what we're saying is to go through and pro yes so I what I have by way of what I have by way of direction for work product would be uh um I don't know if we need to do this by a separate resolution or whether we just take uh Mr C attorney provide Direction by consensus to the administration to release task five on the contract I think given that you that you uh resolved previously to approve one through four you resolve to approve five okay perfect so and we can do that supon just immediately okay so I I'd ask for a motion to approve task five within the scope that we have in front of us for Suns Drive yes ma'am can we see if there's a motion and we'll take up questions and oh okay conversation sorry I'll move the motion okay second okay a motion by commissioner Cay a second by commissioner Corey you recognized for a question or a comment um if we approve this we have to make sure that we can afford this so we we can approve it but I think based conditionally on where that money is going to come from it's not it's $310,000 money it is and so to the manager do we have this money set aside yeah we can uh we can tap into the uh line item that we have put money away for this project uh for any cost related to it it was always in the interest it was always towards construction but um you know any soft costs that are associated with so I would um I think we have about 1.9 million that we set aside in the CIP that we can tap to to take on the additional 300 well it's that but so here's why I'm confused it's not an additional cost I mean we've known that it was going to be $310,000 when I say when I say additional is because you've only authorized up to four so we didn't account for task five yet then because we didn't know if we were moving forward or not with task five in this budget year any budget year we we we this commission I'm not sure why there's so much confusion to be honest with you because we because the confusion is born of the fact Mr manager that we can't build what we don't design so that's why I'm confused let let me let me me if I can because I've been sitting quietly patiently we brought this as as a full package this commission thought it was too much money at the time if you remember we were informed somewhat by the fot monies that this city was awarded for this project and we said let's try to work to maybe not lose that but when the package came it it was it was the cost was was of concern the full package so it was only Tas one and two which were only analy IAL and branding this commission Revisited that and said okay maybe we went too tight and and we ought to expand and let's go through task one through four always prioritizing Sunside drive because that was the priority both maybe from a financial standpoint and or wanting to get some Drive moving and I think there may have been a concern at the time that if the project was too big that nothing would move forward so that's what drove the priority a lack of available funding and those things have changed because we've added more money and now we're up to 1.9 now we have a bond that has passed we may have a second project that's coming um so some of those things have changed but it was very clear at the time what precipitated the actions I were taken and why the approach I was taken I mean it was clear to me so so um that we may want to advance some of the work now because there's a desire to to bring things further along certainly but it was clear that what the intent was and why this was scoped in this manner because we brought a full package uh to this commission multiple times so why the reason I say additional is because Tas five was never authorized but we do have funds that we can tap into to cover that 300 Grand above and beyond what you've authorized through four okay so just to clarify we just did not reserve $310,000 for designed specifically that's correct okay that's my Rec and and as to your summary of the process I 100% believe that's accurate I think the only the only confusion I had about what we're going to get by way of a product was I thought we'd have standards that we could export to the balance of the district so put that that we that we've clarified now so we have a motion and a second to approve or authorize the release of task five the managers indicated that we can tap the capital line item for of $1.9 million for this project and Advance the design um any further questions or comments on the pending resolution okay yes sir just quick question through the mayor um for in reference to the guidelines are we going to need a I guess a proposal or a scope a something that we can look at that's going to yeah so let's so I'm going to take that next so let's just let's just authorize this because we need a resolution for the City attorney Madam city clerk if you can call the role on the reso to authorized Task 5 please yes commissioner Cay commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner B no V mayor Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes passes 41 okay um okay in terms of additional work product to commissioner Rodriguez's uh prior point do we want to direct Ferby to bring us back a revised scope that would address the development of design guidelines for the entirety of the District I'm asking the question are you yes yes okay yes sorry I didn't know if we were waiting for somebody in particular to answer want to make sure everybody's on the same page so um Mr City attorney do we need any sort of formal action or is the direction sufficient for the manager to I I believe it is but just want direction is sufficient okay thank you so um what else do we want to discuss in connection with this discussion item that that's it this is great okay moving forward thank you so Mr manager uh we'll expect to hear back in in a meeting or so about the uh Revis go correct yes sir we'll go with plus Heria so we can get something back thank you very much Juan and your team thank you for your patience we appreciate you being here this evening and commissioner thank you for the discussion item thank you all okay okay moving on uh on tonight's agenda can we um let's see what can we knock out here quickly can I get a motion on Madam clerk if you can read item one for the record please yes item one a resolution of the mayor City Commission of the city of sov for the approving a memorandum of understanding between the 11th Judiciary Circuit of Florida the Miami day County clerk of court and controller Miami day County the Mi day County state attorney's office the Mi day County Public Defender's office and participating local law enforcement agencies including the city of South Miami for the Miami day County Driver civil citation diversion program thank you can I get a motion on item one please is there a second second so we have a motion by commissioner bonich and a second by vice mayor Corey Madam Clark please call the role yes um commissioner bonish yes commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner Cay yes vice mayor Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes item pass 5 thank you colleagues on on items two three and four do we have any questions obje huh we already did two we did two thank you for that I apologize on three and four any questions or objections okay uh M clerk if you can read item three and four and then I'd like to get a motion on each one separately okay item three a resolution of the mayor City Commission of the city ass for approving the grant of easement to my day County Water and SE department for sanitary SE facilities at sou Park item four a resolution of the mayor City Commission of the city of sou Florida establishing an auditor selection committee to assist in the procurement of a certified public accounting firm pursuant to section 28. 391 for the statutes appointing committee members great thank you can I get a motion on item three please motion is there a second so a motion by commissioner Kia is second by vice mayor Corey Madam clerk if you can call the rooll please yes commissioner bonish yep commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner Cay yes Vice May Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes item passes make get a motion on item four please I move item four second we have a motion by vice mayor Corey and a second by commissioner Rodriguez Adam clerk if you can call the role Please Mr May that that item requires a minimum of three members so we we put forward two names for your consideration um so so by Statute uh you would need at least three names so um I want to make sure you didn't vote on it before Oh so we need you need us to profer a third name correct or or all three names we just the finance um that me my memo provides two names that you can consider I'm sorry I I I missed that in the package so I saw Mr parl and Mr Po corre were suggested are there are there I'll take one other names that are I I'll offer my name up for uh for you guys okay you want to serve okay I don't know why but okay been I've been ask I'll do it I'm hey I I'd like to move the item with the name suggested by the manager and the profer of commissioner Kai being the third member I'll second thank you the motion in a second on item four Madam clerk please call the role before he changes his mind yes commissioner Bish yes commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner Cay vice mayor Cory yes mayor fernandz yes ad pass 5 thank you okay uh on the public hearing items uh Mr manager I believe you wanted to pull item six yes sir okay can I get a motion to defer item six please I'll move that is there a second second a motion to defer item six by the commissioner bonich and second by commissioner Corey without objection show item six deferred is that yeah pardon me mayor is that indefinitely Or to a date certain um Mr manager when would you like to have it heard well we'll do in definitely okay okay I think the manager just wants to recalibrate on that item uh he asked me for the deferral and I yeah I Mr Mayor if I could I there's a lot of of codes County codes that would apply here and I think I think I based on the questions I want to be able to provide more information and discuss with the attorneys a little bit of what are those codes you know what do they tracked back to and basically what would we be choosing to use the Authority Under the inter loal I as the same question to uh yeah to enforce so just some clarity for the benefit of all of us in the public so again without objection show that item deferred indefinitely um Madam clerk if you can read item five please item five the city Commission of the city of South FL approving and authorizing the city manager to execute a multi-year Collective Agreement with the south Florida police ban Association thank you madam clerk um is there a motion to adopt item five I'll move the motion is there a second then we'll open up for public hearing okay so have a motion by commissioner Gia and a second by the vice mayor to adopt the item uh this is a public hearing item there's any member of the public who'd like to address this Commission on the adoption of a CBA for collective bargaining agreement with the south Florida police benevolent Association please come forward at this time seeing no one in the chambers we will close the public hearing I see no one online either Madam clerk just to be clear colleagues any questions or comments regarding item five and the agreement um Mr manager my only question is when can we expect to see the CBA for the the larger bargaining unit in our line of officers which is the fop we're currently in negotiations with fop um there was a vote to the membership uh to seek ratification that vote did not pass the fop is identifying what were the items that uh were of interest to the members that maybe didn't support it to come back and and hold one more meeting with is what they asked us to do um and so once they get that feedback we so we're we're pretty close we thought we did have well we did have an agreement with the the the leadership and and the council I know that we're there are rules about our ability to be involved in these negotiations can we get a summary of Where what our last offer was so this board is at least aware of what the offer was or is that violate collective bargaining rules okay if if if it's if it's again if it's consistent with the limits of our Authority I certainly would like to at least see the terms of the offer um and you know just to kind of keep us a breast of where we are we'll confirm that for the manager and he'll share whatever he's able to share okay at at a minimum I know you could call an executive session to get briefed on on labor negotiation if if that was uh desired uh but maybe at this point it may be uh maybe a good point to allow them to come back and say what were the pressure points uh I think there may be only a couple items okay so can we just I'd like to know where we are this is obviously an important item to all of us making sure that so we can get our department fully staffed um can we just tentatively maybe schedule an executive session uh I don't know if the seven if the 18th is too early Mr manager you want to wait till the first meeting in March just have as a placeholder adverti we can talk about where we are from negotiation it may be resolved by then so we you be able to cancel it yeah you could call and if it's not needed it's not needed um or we don't have the info yet uh we can uh you know uh let you know so you can schedule it if we can just direct staff to work with the clerk and City attorney to notice one for um kind of CBA briefing um in early March I just like to have this a placeholder okay any objections okay okay have we voted on item five Madam clerk no if you can call the role please yes commissioner Bon yes commissioner Rodriguez yes commission Cay yes Vice May Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes I have pass mam clerk on the next roll call if you can change it up a bit I'd appreciate it with the members I think we're going in the same order every roll call but start first oh you did okay I just want to make sure we're not picking on anyone commissioner there exactly other the corners yeah okay um if we can read item seven please item seven an ordinance of the mayor City Commission of the city of Soph Florida amending section 20- 4.8 non-conforming uses instructions of article 4 other regulations of the Land Development code to revise Reg regulations related to non-conforming instructs for uses colleagues any questions on item seven I understand uh Mr City attorney could you uh give us a brief overview about what the item intends to accomplish so uh this deals with the legal non-conforming uh uses and structures which are oh sorry wrong one this one I do sorry okay you're referring item nine yeah yes okay there we go so okay can I get a motion on item seven then I'll move the motion okay second you have a motion by commissioner Ka second by vice mayor Corey again colleagues any any questions seeing none please call the role Madam clerk commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner bonish yes commission Kay yes vice mayor Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes I pass first reading Okay so we've got items uh M1 which is discussion it on physical barriers uh the noise ordinance uh item eight and item 9 which is the drb colleague any preference in terms of how you want to tackle these last three items so we can try to get out of here at a reasonable hour these are probably going to generate some conversation or questions are there any that you don't have any objections to anyone have any questions regarding item eight I'm none I'm I'm a no vote so you're a what I'm a no vote but okay so uh on on item 8 I'm oh sorry okay so on item eight I'm I I still stand to what I said in the in the last Commission meeting I don't think that you know especially a business that just signed the lease is getting ready to open that we surprise them with a basically a time where on a Thursday they have to shut all outdoor yeah so let's let's let's do this so um why don't we just read item a to the record okay and then I what I would ask is a City attorney to kind of walk us through the posture pre our last iteration what we did and where we stood and what we are amending our code to with the proposed changes that are in front of us today so if you can go through that history I'd appreciate it Adam clerk please read in the record and we'll get a presentation from the city attorney okay item eight in ordinance of the mayor City Commission of the city of South Florida amending section 15- 82 prohibited noise of article 3 noise of chapter 15 offenses and miscellaneous provisions of the city code of wces to revise the noise regulations within the city thank you madam clerk um so Mr C attorney let me see if so make sure I'm clear so our original text which predates the changes that we made when we adopted the is it tsdd um yes okay uh basically had a standard that had a it was a distance standard it had no audible decel threshold correct correct so if it was plainly audible from 100 ft from the premises you wen't violation of the of the ordinance if it was done with some sort of Amplified noise or I guess loud talking would would we didn't we didn't prohibit loud talking we did not prohibit loud talking so it's just radios or some sort of other correct uh noise making or noise amplification device is that correct that's right okay and then we moveed to a standard where we went to a blank a blanket exemption for properties within the tsdd between 900 a.m. and 11: 11:00 p.m. correct okay and we allow those hours to be further modified for special events corre and also adopted a decel threshold of 80 DB uh during what I would say our business hours right the business hours portion and 65 DB um for quiet hours correct okay uh so that was again those were Citywide standards outside of the tsdd TS had an exemption correct at the entirety of tscd at the entirety correct so that included the TOA the what are the sub tsda and tsna tsna thank you I'm still I still haven't gotten them down so the core area can I get can I get like neighbor crib sheet like we used to have inap thank you just going to put on my monitor so I can refer to correctly okay and and commissioner k then brings forward a proposal to modify them out of some concerns that were expressed by some neighbors in the tsna beautiful there we go away like Cy that's why I love Mr russio there you go you get you get one okay so so then then commissioner Kaya brought forward uh some standards that were responsive to I guess some concerns born of Neighbors in the tsna that would uh modify ours and a lot of US Express concerns about the impacts it could have on businesses that were located on or near the boundary uh again if I'm not summarizing the concerns correctly please please you know feel free to chime in just just add yeah this is not necessarily one resident I've had multiple call I want to make sure everybody understands because I know there was a question that multiple residents along that Corridor on 74 Street have gotten calls for um up to 4:00 in the morning sometimes so either it's construction or audio it's just gotten calls on that Corridor so that that's that's where this all kind of came back and landed just enough while okay so um can you run us through what the proposed standards are in the draff that's in front of us sure so we know what we're working with so the the first thing you'll notice is in the chart with the decibel readings The Proposal is to reduce the the I guess the the daytime uh the maximum daytime sound uh down to 70 DB it was at 80 DB and that um Miss Carrera has been a big proponent of that of that level which I'm sure she can explain um why but apparently 80 DB is is pretty loud um but maybe she can my initial recation was the 70 and 60 or five above ambient right so if you're in a loud area if you're five above ambient four above ambient you're okay but if you're in a quiet area five above ambient or the 65 or 70 depending on the day and uh there was just some confusion that got that 85 in there but can can never recommend it that way can I ask a uh a question born of some ignorance is there really a substantial difference between 65 and 70 DB yes okay and and so I'm just or I'm just wondering whether we should just my reason for asking is should we just have one standard or is it is it really that that significantly differen it is deible readings or just go to 70 or 65 right as opposed to having two standards for different times of different times of the day different days of the week I mean the standards seem to be the same I mean I in my mind as a late person 70 and 65 or someone indistinguishable can you kind of give me an example of the difference between one and the other scream it play it for me no I actually can't it's funny because we we had a demonstration once uh exactly to what the sound difference is and there is a significant difference because it's a logarithmic scale so it's exponential the way it grows okay um but also depending on if there's a heavy base or something makes a difference so maybe it's lower that's what readings don't pick up the bass and it might be uncomfortable for people to feel that Basse so you know sound is kind of Tri but these standards would not pick up bass they will not pick up base so that that problem would remain whether that problem will remain I mean there has to be s judgement if you're standing there and you feel it in your body then maybe that's not a good does the standard a little too much base right yeah so I mean I see my City attorney shaking his head right if we if I I I only ask the question because as I read it if it were my client being cited for loud noise related to Bas I'd be like you've got no basis in your code for bringing forward a violation yes and You' be hard pressed to find a neighboring city that has a base because there is no I mean you would have can we have a standard equivalent to what we had before which is 100 ft from the property if the emission of base is palpable I don't know I'm just asking the question could we yeah the reason we went away from that was because there was some subjectivity involved there so that was a concern and so we wanted to go to a bright line standard but if we can't according to our current rules if we can't measure it we can't we can't enforce it yeah we can't site it again again just something to I I don't feel the need to regulate it right now I you know I've been my PS about that before but just I just want to put it out there if that's a concern complaint you're getting we're going to be able to do nothing about it okay so we may have to come back and revisit that issue yes man I'm sorry gosh commissioner one each that's okay Brian and I are interchangeable we're on the same side here um if you remember we went from a conversation of 85 to 80 which Miss Cabrera I was going to say so said was significant and there's a significant difference between 70 and 65 I just want to point out that people who live in Commerce dense areas and places that are Lively you can't move somewhere and then want things to change for you I could live a Ross the street from the school but then be angry because I hear children through my window I chose to live there and if I recall correctly you actually said something similar to people living around South Miami Park I said at the last meeting about this item so I guess and so exactly so I say we changed it to come up with what we had as of October of last year and when we change these things it has to to be for everyone and in in a way that makes sense I don't think you can move to a commercial area and then be upset when there is noise same as what the original discussion that we had the apartments that were above in Sunset Place where that person then called the police incessantly until the entire noise ordinance was changed to you couldn't even play a guitar outside and so I caution Us in doing these kinds of shifts because we're making macro changes for micro problems so can I say Amen to that and believe it or not I I never thought I would ever reference this person I I was uh about a year ago visited by a woman who served as the mayor of nightlife the deputy mayor of nightlife in New York City and she said to me I'd like to help you refine some standards for to kind of deal with whatever conflicts you might have around NTI and restaurants in your city and I said I'd love to have that but my problem is I don't have enough of those problems right now so among the solutions that they've articulated in New York for some of these problems is to require in certain areas that developers that are building new products so you're bringing people to the nuisance again I'm not saying that Avalon Bay is doing this but potentially that project brings people to a nuisance let's just say boogies because they're a bar right or barbella could be seen as a nuisance by some of those residents in the future your required to incorporate thicker Windows right so I I I think rather than put the onus on all the businesses to accommodate to your point to the changing character of The District I would think maybe on second reading we want to think about adopting some development standards in terms of the kind of product that should be brought to bear in terms of the construction of H particularly housing residential products within what we believe to be or we want to be an urban center right that is active not 24/7 but maybe you know uh 16 whatever what's you know whatever number you know 168 or whatever the whatever the the number you know uh is uh 1687 whatever so I I I mean I'd like to see us kind of also solve the problem that way and I'm certainly happy to provide Miss Caba to contact uh the name of the person who approached me because they may be able to add something valuable to a discussion that I thought we not would not be having because I certainly am concerned about um people wanting to you know change the character of what's always been a commercial area to be certainly a lot more uh Suburban in terms of the ambient noise I mean I chose to live 10 blocks from the SOI District right because I didn't want to be I wanted to be close but not so close that I'd hear the noise cuz I I lived above a Rooms To Go or near Rooms To Go and got very tired of the 4 a.m deliveries for product every evening right at the at the adjacent loading dock so um or lived in Bickle and dealt with hearing Blue Martini right play music till 3:00 a.m. which was their right right and part of the reason I wanted to live there because I could go downstairs and have a meal whenever I wanted with my newborn and get back into my apartment when she got uh Rowdy so I think those are the tra offs that come with living in close proximity but I think we can kind of solve for some of the conflict by maybe requiring use of certain building materials to help mitigate the noise further comments yes sir three points here one I am not in the business of making other people upgrade their houses just because we're saying so so I would be a strong no against that well I'm not I'm not talking about making it retroactive this is would be a perspective standard I mean for for you but I mean if they that's up to them to decide right shouldn't be something no I I I I would disagree so far is that if we know that we're going to have potential conflicts and people don't like noise it's like I I'm not going to put my head in the sand and not acknowledge that in Winwood with all the new Winwood I mean if you are familiar with that District would May the district was The Nightlife right so put it on the map today there's a lot more residential product that's new residential correct and what I'm saying is that new residential is not being built to a standard that is mitigating these noise conflicts and what's happening is they're pushing out the long-term business owners to help put the place on the map right so you're changing the character of the neighborhood not withstanding people knew the environment they're moving into so again I I want to be again that's kind of my position I'm very sympathetic to neighbors and noise but you know um this is part of the character that we're trying to evolve for the town center and I don't want to kill the infant in the crib here I don't I don't think we're going to kill it though mayor I think the point is just to have some limitations if there's Extreme Measures that it could be applied for so when we're talking about these measures here and the 65 and 70 DB depending on what time it is this is not something that's coming out of thin are these are coming from relatable and and like cities around us that have the same scenarios so if you go to Copper 29 and Coral Gables and you're across the street at Aragon with one of those condos it's the same structure right it's not any different different it's just a structure that we have in place just in case it does get out of hand right if if I look you guys all know I'm with you guys when it comes of getting our commercial centers already correct and making sure that it's Lively I'm the first one that's going to be there at the same time we also have to be respectful and have some Provisions in place to make sure that we can protect the residents that have already lived there beforehand um you know it that's something we need to be responsible of of as well you know I think that the comment was made that um to the nature that you know they're living there already um when we put zoning restrictions in place you know you're going up three stories and you abut to a residential area you're not allowed to build four right like those Provisions are in place because they're existing residents to make sure they're protected that's all we're trying to do so whether you guys agree with the decibel levels being at 80 or 70 maybe we don't understand what that actually means in real life but putting a provision in place is important yes commiss R get you recognized to the mayor um for me it's not so much about the deciel for me it's more about the hours so if you're hitting if well it's not going to be we didn't change the hours so they're the same hours I I I still think that those hours I I wasn't here for we Chang the hours from well for just a certain district for certain districts okay so what is the hours that we have for our so for the tsna that we you were concerned about the last time is they're exempt Monday through Thursday from any noise standard from 5:00 to 10 p.m. and Friday from 5:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. Saturday noon to 10: Sunday noon to 9: okay so for example if they had outdoor dining at this new establishment that we're all familiar is coming and there were no there was noise in excess of uh 60 what is it uh let's say on a Saturday 65 DB uh potentially they could get issued a noise violation yeah so so Thursday it's still 8m no no Thursday no so so Thursday is Thursday is is 5 to 10 in the in the so there's two standards these are the general neighborhood standards commissioner okay the second page has the standards within the tstd subd districts yeah but still again it only goes Monday through Monday through Thursday to 10: p.m. so just so you're aware right if you had noise in excess of 65 DB right being emitted from that establishment it would possibly trigger noise violation so realistically outdoor dining would stop at 10 p.m. on a Thursday at that location so mayor why don't we just work on that hour if you guys want to extend the the timing a little bit then let's do so that I sorry through the mayor I just to finish what I was going to say I understand the deciples if someone at 1: in the morning 2 in the morning 3 in the I think we are all the establishments close roughly at 2: um by 3: 4 in the morning 2: in the morning you have the I I can understand that but at 10 p.m. when a business is open and they got people there I you know I I just don't I don't see I I don't see how how we can do that to businesses when we're trying to grow our commercial SOI District so maybe we can work on the times and then the deciples really only only you know pertain to late night hours agreed okay further comments Mr Cory I do have concerns because of you know the seeming fairness between being a business that's one block away and one block the other way having uh significantly more restrictions potentially and then understanding the kind of density that we're putting there and the likelihood that that that that's going to I mean it is going to have an impact on the neighbors around it the neighbors around it really probably expected this development to come 10 years ago and it's only coming you know maybe in the next 10 years or so so I don't know I I I have concerns with putting restrictions on it and uh potentially having those kind of conflicts where residents are not going to say like weaponizing the code but maybe using the restrictive code to try and um stop a business from coming in or thriving or you know that that sort of thing and then of course any kind of uh liability this opens us up to with the businesses and and and our code so I think if we are going to restrict it um in the hometown let's just make it pretty much the the the entire commercial area that we've that we've considered goad yeah so I look I'm I'm gonna I'm going to vote this up on first reading I I'd like to see a simplify of the standards within the tsdd um generally to one standard because I think from an enforcement perspective uh you know our staff is going to struggle you know to constantly have to ref refence the section um I think having one standard for the district is probably best um I think 9:00 a.m. to 11: p.m. with the exception maybe Sundays is probably not the worst set of hours but we can talk about that at at a future reading I I I would strongly encourage us to consider knowing that we are hoping that we have a mixed use uh more urbanized condition here that we consider also soling perspectively for conflicts that we will create as we approve projects that are going to bring people to the district right people bring the opportunity for Commerce for activity but it also can bring the Prospect and for conflict around noise complaints and I can tell you standing on that Podium as Council for an applicant 12 or 13 years ago this issue was weaponized by one neighbor living in the same area where we're getting at least gotten one of the complaints that's a record today right saying that didn't want a existing commercial space to be occupied by a lounge that was going to have no outside Amplified noise because they were concerned about noise being admitted when doors were open right and people were going to be coming in and out of the establishment I don't want to I don't want to have to deal with those kind of complaints so I I so I would think we should think about planning in this ordinance some standards around building materials uh window thickness for future projects in the sub area particularly since we've now also decided to intensify the prospect of development within the tsna Which is closest to single family um that we you know limit that we limit um the prospects for noise conflicts as much as possible by requiring you know whatever appropriate treatments uh in new projects your suggestion to as to new residential projects as to new residential projects yeah obviously I don't know that we can go backwards in time and require people to retrofit their buildings that would be a huge burden certainly so those are my comments I'm happy to move it as it is today with you know the or I'm happy to V it up as it is today with the idea that we're going to continue to refine the product here for second reading further comments is there a motion then to adopt the item as presented or with some modifications how do we want to dis dispense the item what modifications did you say or just I I'm not I don't have any today I want to I want to work work them up for discussion in the next meeting so we can just you know you have something in front of you that's uh you can digest I I'm happy to support a motion to adopt it as it's presented with the understanding you know by the sponsor that I'm going to bring forward some amendments on second reading fair enough I'll move the motion as is okay is there a second CRI okay I I will second it so at least it gets said this gu question so um so looks like we may need a third vote is there anything by way of a modification we will want to incorporate today so this is is heard a second time or do we want to move to if there's nothing we want to discuss you want to move to defer the item today just call the just call the vote I'll call just call the vote well I yes recognize I I I would do the modification if we if we up the times change the hours okay the hour now so remember I just want everyone procedurally this is going to come back to us yeah for a second reading and so um rather than consider this all on the Fly what I would suggest because it's already 9:45 and I can't believe this meeting has gone on this long already uh I would suggest that we each write up our suggested modifications send them to our interupted City attorney so they can kind of consolidate them right and see if we can get to a consensus product that way between first and second reading and through the mayor um commissioner uh vice mayor Cory you you I think you suggested I just want to get this right you suggested just doing one standard for the entire so District I just I just have concerns with with with making it more rest restrictive in this particular area so that makes it hard for me to to consider the the item as a whole but but you're saying but you're saying one standard for the entire District yeah but I probably wouldn't I probably would there's no District what district to he saying sorry all of them all of them T tsda and tsna all of them have the same exemption yeah the ex the exact same tsna right so you understand is is residential right now mostly 95% is residen just again okay so I guess we would we would we would that's all I'm saying that one would be the only one if it's just residential I'm more concerned obviously of the commercial area right to okay so we have a motion and a second of Adam Clark please call the role this is on the item as it's presented commissioner Rodriguez no commissioner cayen yes commissioner bonish no mayor Fernandez I'm sorry Vice May Cory no mayor Fernandez yes okay so that that item fails two three do we want to do we want to consider this item dead or do we want to move it with some modifications okay I can I just give you my go for it we can take I consider it dead okay would anyone who voted against the proposal be willing to consider voting for it with some modifications through the mayor sir you recognized the the modifications yeah just expanding the the hours so would that be uh would you be suggesting that every District every TOA tsda and tsna be exempt from 9 to 11: p.m. which is the most liberal standard so I would say the the tsna being a a a strictly residential area I I'm I'm okay with that my modifications would be to the TS tsda and TOA from 9 to 11 well I would say from 9 to 12 9 to 12 okay 9 12 every day including Sundays about tsna tsda and to o d da again this is only exempt from being subject to a 65 or SE 65 DBA reading yeah right no no I okay I hear that's fine so we okay so you'll move it with a modification that the exemption be uh from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. in the TOA and tsda and as presented for the T sna yeah okay is there a second no can I make a modification you can yes you have a mover if he accepts your Amendment no I'm going to because I I don't like on Fridays at tsna specifically the new restaurant that we're getting in place i' rather extended from 5: to 12:00 p.m. on Fridays and Saturdays to 12:00 p.m. as well on the tsna also yeah it's just to be clear well then all of them will be the same then you all mean 1200 a.m. right 12:00 a.m. 12 a.m. 12 a.m. yes he's not new uh so then they would all be may I may I may I suggest one modification that we have a a dual standard in that section which is businesses located on 74 Street okay have the same hours have the hours as proposed with the UN modification till midnight okay so the tsna stand tsna subdistrict standard leave it as it's presented MH with the exception that businesses located on 7 4 Street have uh hours that extend Fridays and Saturdays till 12 a. is that what I heard you both say 12 a I'm 12 that's tsna tsna more liberal we're making it better so so yeah so let me just let let's just can we I have to manage the conversation because I will get lost and we will all get lost as well so please let me recognize you I will recognize you okay so understand you've moved moved it with the modification and you've accepted his Amendment uh to 12:00 p.m. and my further amendment that that only impacts businesses on 74 Street correct yes mayor okay great so to summarize to summarize commissioner Rodriguez has moved a motion which I'm assuming commissioner Gia will second with the Amendments that basically adopt the standards for the TOA as presented the tsda as presented sorry no no no I'm sorry the TOA from 900 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. 12 a.m. 12:00 a.m. excuse me thank you the same for the tsda 9:00 a.m. to 12: a.m. as an exemption and the tsna we are accepting it as presented with the exception that for businesses located on 74 Street on Fridays and Saturdays they are exempt through 12 12 a.m. did I state that summary correctly okay so we have a motion by commissioner Rodriguez and a second by commissioner Kay with those modifications your question I I'm gonna quote you actually when I say don't let the en don't let what what is it don't let perfect be the enemy of good what we had in place was good what we're doing here now I think is over complicating something something that doesn't need to necessarily be fixed right now if you look at what is in front of tsna is parking lots and the like so they're already complaining about something that is happening on a street that you are not necessarily going to change so when you look at this no no I I I would I would recast what you said they're complaining about a condition that is likely noise coming from two blocks away that's what I'm saying it's noise coming from two blocks away you're not going to be able to mitigate noise from two blocks away so we're doing mental gymnastics here to try to solve for something that is unrealistic in my eyes so we can do all this verbage that we want to but know that if we're being real right now no matter what we write on this paper people are going to be happy about it and unhappy about it so mad Vice I to your I as I told commissioner Le who was very skeptical every time we presented an amendment my objective here is not to kill anyone's legislative intent right what I'm trying to do is work collaboratively with my colleague to come up with a consensus product that addresses some reasonable concerns but does not necessarily kill in my opinion the infant in the crib now I'm going to be a yes today on these modifications but I'm going to be very clear if I don't see standards that address prospective conflicts in terms of building materials I'm going to vote no with you so I I mean so I'm I'm looking for I just don't have the language to add today to have a constructive conversation to put it in front of you but my intention is between first and second reading to bring further modifications when you say modifications you're talking about modifications for future buildings future buildings yes not modific not for buildings that exist now so unless I I think I think but wait let me finish yeah sorry my apologies um so so if I understand that correctly you're going to put something in place not for the people that may be complaining now but for future buildings that may come in its place on you know let's say the parking lot correct my hope is that my hope is that the building that comes in the parking lot essentially serves a as a buffer in some ways between blocks noise right it captures noise on the north side of those buildings but I'm all but I am concerned about future tenants in such a building than saying hey I don't like barbella making noise till 12:00 at night and I think frankly that is a great Activity Center that I don't want to kill for example right so that that's the balance I'm trying to strike we'll see if we get there would would you say that that verbage more than here should be in the code like in in the building it's going to be in the it's going to be in the land of yeah it'll it'll it may have to come under a separate instrument and I may ask that we defer this until that can catch up but I want to move this along so that I'm kind of working good faith as I am always with all of you to help you all accomplish your respective goals and for the benefit of our community kind of arrive at standards that are practical and work right so I don't want to give you the false sense that because I'm kind of getting on the train today that I'm on the train 100% because I have again like I said I stood at that Podium and had a very reasonable proposal that could have helped animate this District kill because one person who was irrational I will not name got up and said no it's going to generate noise and everybody said no no so through the mayor um commissioner Bon so I'm with you 100% what my motion does is that currently right now as of 11: p.m. if they reach that deciel they are basically breaking Cod or that so all I did was extend that one more hour so the way that we have it currently right now is to 11: my motion is to extend it to 12:00 a.m. so they get an extra hour of them being able so it's not killing it but if you kill it you're you're basically saying at 11: p.m. for example like you said barbella if it's making too much noise they can be uh fined where right now they have at 12:00 a.m. is when they can be yes fine M gab you're recognized for I guess a point of clarification so noise and noise 70 DB is very different just cuz you hear it doesn't mean that it'll be a violation so yeah I can hear it but it doesn't mean it's over 70 DB 70 DB will be like somebody having a blow dryer 3 feet away from you that's kind of like what the magnitude that you're looking at so I live behind St Thomas I hear their Festival going on all the time but if I were to measure it it's not above 70 DB it's got to be measured at 70 debl at your at the at at the property line of the complainant okay right because I I don't care maybe it's 100 DB over there but if at my property it's 65 there's no violation so thank you thank you for the clarification no um so that I just wanted to recap that I'm extending the time I'm not leaving it where it was through the mayor yes sir the time that we had set before back in December 15th we actually extended it so we're actually making more business friendly just want to make sure you understood that you're you're recognized so you're making it more business friendly in one aspect but does it address what commissioner Corey had mentioned about one thing for everything or are we still keeping we we have we have Consolidated the standard as to TOA and tsda and we are so we've changed it so it's one standard right 9 am to 12: a.m. okay we have accepted it for tsna right as it's presented with the modification that if your business located on 74th Street right on Fridays and Saturdays you are exempt till 12:00 a.m. okay that is the motion that's in front of us okay with that clarification Madam clerk please call the role okay um commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner Cay yes Vice commissioner bonish sorry I turned it off instead of on no vice mayor Cory I'll do yes at first reading mayor fernandz yes okay okay thank you so we've got two items left um design revieww board can you read that item for the record please item nine item n in ordinance of the mayor City Commission of the city of South Florida amending the composition and procedures of the design review board colleagues um do we want a quick presentation on what this item uh accomplishes or through the mayor yes I think we went through it in in our Workshop Workshop so I think we're ready to vote if that's a I would like to amend it to basic require go back to the two the B monthly meeting so it happens twice a month again with the caveat that if there's nothing on nothing to be scheduled the meeting is automatically canel but at least it creates more throughput in the process and limits the lead time for people to get their projects considered so that would be the only modification to the item as presented I'd like to make to it through the mayor um so if I get this right so right now there's going to be five active members and two MERS alterate M and those alternate members can participate in the discussions provide comments their votes would not they can vote when there is a standing member missing or two standing members missing so that's how the alternate system would work that would allow us to have a quorum of only three as opposed to four which should make sure that we actually have more regular meetings and in addition I I'll move the item as presented with the modification that there be a requirement for them to meet twice a month as opposed to once a month and if there are no items scheduled for the agenda that that item can be that meeting can be automatically canceled the goal there being to can create more opportunities for people to get in front of the drb I'll move the M motion with so I have a mo I'll move it you'll second it sir okay question go ahead um the question my my question is so then those two uh alternates cannot will they'll hear but they cannot vote they're only voting members when there is an absence on the part of one of the five standing members my my the reason I'm saying this is basic basically their practice squad so um you know so I'm just saying it's hard to get when you when you try to give when you try to put somebody on the board saying you're an alternate you can sit there but you're not going to have a vote or a voice well no no no that's that's they don't have a vote but they have a voice I mean but they won't have a vote I'm just saying we're having difficulties putting people on the board that just might make it a little bit more difficult maybe just eliminate the alternates and just leave it five so you want to modif I'll accept that modification let's leave it to move it to five members is that has that again let me just ask this question why don't we do this is first reading yes okay that might be a slightly more complicated revision let's give the City attorney direction that on second reading we'd like to see an alternate that reduces the board to five standing members with no alternates and if you can address the composition aspects so that we get the professional participation that we've wanted historically ly reflected in the five standing board members can you can just can you just refresh my recollection on the composition of the board because we have yes a certain number of residents and then we have a certain requirement on certain design professionals that we've tried to incorporate in the board so right now we have five of the seven have to have to meet one of these categories okay they're all uh you know some kind of professional dealing with real estate property and they're required to be City residents or they can be they are there is an exemption if it is determined by the city commission that a position cannot be filled by a resident uh the resident requirement may be waved by the commission waved with a simple majority or four simple majority okay okay so I'm I'm fine with that then so if you want to make that modification today I'm that will not require a lot of redrafting if we just reduce the membership from five to seven no Okay so okay so then I'll move it with with I'll move it as presented with the amendment that it is a bonly meeting with the option to cancel there's nothing scheduled automatically and I'll accept commissioner Rodriguez's friendly amendment to reduce the composition of the board from Seven members with two alternates to just five standing members is there a the second or got the modifications okay so it's moveed by myself and seconded by commission Cay questions colleagues hearing none and seeing none Madam clerk if you can call the role Mr City attorney are you clear other the changes sir okay Madam Clark please commissioner Kay yes commissioner Rodriguez yes commissioner bones yes Vice May Cory yes mayor Fernandez yes item passes 5 okay so M M1 uh this is a discussion item requested by the administration I think seeking to get some um clarification our preferences in terms of fences at the property line uh this was an item that was particularly a concern of commissioner lean some what I share uh certainly in our neighborhood we were seeing a proliferation of uh fences at in the front yard does kind of change the character of the neighborhood um I think his goal was to see them limited to a County Line Road uh City attorney correct like 80th Street or 62nd Avenue where you're where your property fronts a a more heavily trafficed street right like an arterial like 62 or 80th uh the incorporation of walls or fences is probably more appropriate to create some distance between the house and the traffic but the goal was on on Strictly residential streets to Li eliminate or uh or reduce the size of these physical barriers that's my recollection of the intent behind the Direction given to staff to kind of address these standards anything else you would like to add for the record and then I'll recognize Mr gabera to I think confusion inserted itself into the process because there was a bit of mission creep once we went to the planning board um and I think it there it went beyond I think what your original intent was and we weren't sure where we had started to begin with so that's why we are here this evening Miss CA suggested hey let's go back to the commission and get get okay like clarify things this was the item that I said I had no idea what going okay no I I I don't know I don't know why there is a ton of confusion I have not been but have not been privy to the conversations at the planning board which may have confuse the issue from my perspective it's very simple um what I took away from commissioner lean's comments and my observations that I share particularly in areas you know south of AD Street where we've seen a lot of new large homes being built is that people are starting to incorporate you know more hard edges which begins to change the character of the neighborhood we've had I mean one of the the most delightful surprises for me in moving into my neighborhood was how my neighborhood celebrates Halloween where everyone's on their front yards it's a mob scene of kids it's an incredible kind of community experience people get to know each other than you the neighborhood we don't want to lose that opportunity for neighbor neighborly interaction uh I think that's what he was reacting to I I share the concern I certainly recognize that on certain streets I if I lived on 80th Street I probably would want to have an enclosure at the front of my property given the volume of vehicles right and to kind of segregate my home from a very highly traffic thoroughfare same with 62 I could see some other conditions that we may want to identify where we would allow for um you know fences and doors for um fences andent her walls but I think the idea was to kind of keep you know keep South Miami um I don't know what the right word is open commiss k you want to say something or commissioner Rodriguez if you want to think about it I'll recognize him in the inter M Rodriguez um through the mayor so this actually came up on my last bo uh planning board meeting the purpose of This was um for example in our neighborhood someone's throwing up a walls all around their property of cluas except for where you driving through so uh commissioner Leeman's uh reasoning for this was to try to limit things like that so there's more interaction between the residents correct so that's um so I think and limiting it to six feet um I think that at the time they had proposals of uh four feet and then metal on top you know with wood structur I would tell you I would go much further than that i' say which I wouldn't allow the condition at all so I would not allow people to enclo on a residential on a standard residential street I would not allow a front yard enclosure if it were again that's my personal opinion I prefer not to if it's if it we're going to allow it it's going to be I would say it's a lot lower it's a three- foot wall so that you do have the interaction maybe you want to Define your Edge so your dog doesn't run out your front door into the street which I know that I was certainly when I my dog was a puppy always paranoid about but beyond that what we want to keep is the you know visual connectivity your RDR and the ability for people to interact so I I would say I'd be fine with eliminating it but if we want to keep the option I would certainly lower the height to something you know below 4 feet frankly and something much more much less opaque than what we have today which I think is 60% aperature rule that we have today in our above four feet okay so that's why I wanted to bring it back because I believe that the planning zoning the planning board's recommendation was to allow the clusia HED or whatever hedge to be unlimited height yeah so I'm like well we're sort of going in the opposite direction of what we wanted to right um um if I may through the mayor yes sure I I believe that's because it also includes the backyards the height restrictions we're just talking and what what I what I what I believe commissioner Leeman and I were trying to address was just whatever faces the street okay you want if you want to have kusia hedges in my opinion that are eight feet in your backyard I I really don't care I see that as your private space but the the point was to keep the public side of the property accessible to the public and I I agree I was just asking the question to clarify because I don't remember I think that was back in November um the issue comes and I'm for it I'm not I'm not for having these walls of clu but what do you do in certain uh instances where you currently have them do you go to them and tell them they got to cut them or what do we do in that I again I don't I don't I don't know if someone can clarify me as to what the permitted standard is today I thought it was four feet yeah it's with a with a transparent uh 60% transparency above four feet up to six feet so if they have a kusia hedge that is taller than four feet that is not transparent in the front yard I would be of the opinion they're probably in violation of our standard today so yes ma'am you're recognized I just want to point out I live on a corner I have a six foot wall on the side of my property and I probably have a 10- foot clua inside my backyard so when we're talking about outward facing yard does that mean my side we're not talking about a side but I I think we need to no I think we're just talking strictly about your front so whatever your whatever portion of your property your front door faces the street that say your corner with a 6ot wall it's fine right it's part of your rear yard right I believe iall your wall it starts at the at the wall this is not we're talking about enclosing the front yard being the issue because on the documentation that I read earlier it was talking about external walls and when you when you live on a corner you have more than the front correct so that that needs to be something that gets a dressed I think in South Miami the front is not necessarily it's defined by your address right so you could have the front door on the side of the house that's fine but the address is what determines your front and then that will determine what sides and back and typically the front yard is anything that's in front of the the most that the elevation that's closest to stre the street exactly so anything in front of that else will be the side yard and then the backyard anything that's behind the last celeration but there was a conflict I believe that and I asked Marcus to be here specifically because when I spoke to him in L is there's some conflict and they've had issues so we're trying to correct some of those and I wanted him to explain what those were yes there's a there's a conflict in the code when it comes to Hedges uh the first part of the code it states that fences walls trell trellises and hedges shall not be no higher than four feet but then if you go further down in the current code it later on states that there should be no height limitation for for vines or Hedges it doesn't say any type of location that says Hedges period shall not have a height limit so that's where the conflict is and in the past I I I'm I'm the one that brought this to to to the attention of of the attorneys and the planning board because we've had issues where CT enforcement had has had to interpret that and has allowed people to have no height limit at all for Hedges I figured this would be a perfect time to address that as well okay colleagues so what what direction do we want to give staff yes do you want to do you want to marinate on that for a moment and we'll recognize someone else okay I'm just trying to think of a nice way to say this um well we can give you some more time to think about it if you like yeah maybe I need a minute let's give her a minute let's give her a minute we're GNA we're going to count to three commissioner Kaa do you have any thoughts commissioner Corey I mean I just think we should address the nuances of you know a corner lot or living on a busy street if we are going to start implementing something like this and then I I am a little concerned about us enforcing with the existing properties too since they didn't do anything wrong by by building what they built so unless they did well unless they did exactly okay commission Rodriguez no I my that's my same sentiment if it's existing how we know if it was existing if it's not and oh it's it if it's not permitted it's well you don't have to permit to put up a hedge in front of do you not no no I can't I can't hear if it's not on the microphone I apologize we do have people that may I apologize may be nerds like me in watching this so there you do you do not need a permit to plant landscaping and on on private property you only need a permit to remove trees but you never need a permit to remove Hedges or anything like that we don't need on okay that is fascinating okay okay you recognized commissioner when I bought my house I bought my house including the front yard M I should be able to plant whatever hedge I feel like it in my front yard if I want to put a wall in the front of my house mind you I don't have a wall I don't want a wall because like you I think it inhibits your interaction with your name neighbors but that's my opinion the reality is that the homeowner should be able to decide for themselves whether they want a wall or not right now it stands that you can have a 4ot wall with a twot seethrough if we wanted to change something we maybe would say you have to have a three and three so that you have a little bit more space but to tell somebody hey you can't have your hedge in your front yard as tall as you want it dude I don't understand why we want to restrict people and then further restrict people and mind you we all know I am not like I think I'm I'm afraid of birds people no I I so I just I want can I ask one question regarding your statement because so I I just find it inconsistent in Congress that we would say you can have a wall that's four feet and it can be up to 6 feet if it's 60% opaque you can have hedges in your front yard that as tall as you want them because they're effectively an opaque visual barrier right so there is a I see a conflict there and again I still said my opinion is my opinion I prefer not to see walls some people want them certainly I'm not here to tie anyone's not might it's not my preference to restrict people's property rights but there is a community we are charged with developing a community culture and aesthetic some of that is expressed through our Land Development regulations as to what our preferences are I will tell you in the existing code I don't understand why we allow unlimited height Hedges and we and we say you can only have a wall That's opaque for the first four feet right that's a means inconsistent so you know um that's I think that's something at minimum that we should clarify right in the front and I think if we want to clarify what you can have in your front yard we should say from a safety standard you know like I I live in a corner house if I were to plant a hedge all through my front yard nobody turning at the corner will be able to see so I think if I'm not mistaken doesn't mied County have standards of how that would work yeah that would be picked up in the site triangle but the side triangle wouldn't cover your entire front yeah and and so I'm I'm saying when you're talking about safety there's already something in place the site triangle thank you very much that dictates what you can do as for the rest of it I like I'm saying if we want to say Hey you have to have three feet and then three feet that we can see but people want privacy that's their personal house they can decide for themselves do I want to be a part of this community or not like I don't understand when we what makes us think we can dictate to somebody that they have to be part of a community I don't want to be part of anybody's Community I want to be part of the community let let's be clear about what we're doing we're applying anything we're going to do we're going to apply perspectively and so you know um Coral Gables has a series of standards that it lives by and it sets the tone and direction of a community um if I mean for a person who's looking to move into South Miami if we had a standard that said you can't have a wall or you can only a wall that's three feet right they could factor that into the analysis about whether or not they want to be part of the community right it's a it's a standard that is available for them to understand get informed about and decide whether they want to live in a community that has walls or no walls right so again I'm not I'm not asking that we do something that retroactively changes the decision that someone's made right because I agree with you you've invested I've invested we've chosen not to erect the wall in the front of our house but the fact that we are going to adopt the perspective standard I think is going to send a signal to the world about the kind of community that we want to be that's the ation that I think that commissioner lean was trying to get us to have right um so not to tell someone who lives here already you can't do that if they're already doing it but it is intended to say this is the kind of culture that we want to Foster and we can and we can and we can do that through this kind of a regulation so then would it be fair to say right now you have four and two or whatever it is you can four feet opaque two feet you have to be able to see through if and I'm making this number up because I I don't have the skin in the game for what's visible and what's not when it comes to that wall so let's say we do three and three then Logic for me would dictate that if I'm allowed to have a fence six feet high I'm allowed to have a clua 6 feet high I so I I I this is not an issue that I want to be the guy carrying the water on because it's not one that was at the top of my agenda nor have I heard a bunch of people clambering it's a kind of a a over issue where I will tell you I see a conflict and if I was going to suggest the staff something that we should do immediately is to say if we have four foot opaque walls that are permitted today to me a kusio hedge is an opaque wall right you typically you cannot see uh at you know it's like 70% Plus opaque generally once it grows in I would tell you we should keep Hedges whatever Kio or any other type to four feet so it's consistent with the opaque wall standard that we have today right so you don't have massive green Hedges that if effectively you're saying if it's green you can you can basically block out everyone else but if it's if it's concrete block that gets your preference right it can only be four feet right there's that in congruity so I would address that I think as an immediate issue and say I don't know how anybody else feels about that issue but I think that isn't inconsistent to me that makes no sense because if not we should just allow people to have 6 8ot walls in their front yard if the point is to I I imagine the reason that we have and Marcus or sarami can address this we have a four and two foot standards because we want to provide you know um what's the what's the police safety standard uh safety through safety through design but yeah seped safety through design essentially the reason you want is you want to have a visual sight line into the property right um you know we require it with one building material but we don't require with vegetative material I don't I don't know we can decide as a board do we want to just eradicate the difference to say you can go up to six feet with whatever material you want natural or or or man-made that could be one solution I would say let's bring the vegetative material down to four feet that would be my pre my preference yes you're recognized the point is to look let's give this five more minutes so we can try to I'm going to say this and I'm done and then we just I just have to do birthdays for our staff after um I think if we're going to let you do four and two I think we should just let you take the same height in the in the CLA even though I I'm with you obviously I don't have a wall and I'm terrified of that because I don't want somebody to kill me so you're so you'll be fine with six feet as if it's opaque or open if it was green material in other words if it's a if it's a hedge I don't have a problem with six feet because that's what you would take your fence to giving this and that you you'd end up at six feet and most people would like when they have a fence to you know not see it from their side so if they're inside their house they don't want to see a little hedge and all the sticks you know but that's all I'm going to say about that okay colleagues what was the issue before like did we not have the code to talk about the restrictions that we have in place through the code because if we look at the code we have those restrictions of four and two already right we do I think I think what commissioner Leeman was bringing forward in his conversation was that you're seeing the character of neighborhoods rapidly change houses are getting larger people are internalizing more of their front yards and so that con social connectivity is being eroded right so his goal was you know look I think again I hate to speak for him but my recollection of the conversation was look on 80th Street that makes sense right because it's a lot of vehicular traffic through they on 62nd or on 57 right Candle Drive right that makes sense right what on internal streets let's just take 83rd Street or 84 8 85th Street where I live on right the incorporation of walls is really kind of resulting in a reduction in communal interaction walls are currently what four and two four and two four and two which is the code's been for forever yes yeah I don't see an isue so I don't I don't again now do you think we should address should we address a maximum height on Hedges creditation and front yards six feet so you you'd be good with six feet okay I would say four but again just to keep it consistent with the an material she's right the hedges grow up to the highest point of the wall if it's a four and two if you put a hedge behind it well there's no but there's no wall this is what just this I I there understand that but some people put a wall and a h yes so I I think um I understand the the purpose why commissioner Leeman put this through but you know we all know I I mean we've all walked this city there are many houses that have seethrough picket Aluminum Fences that don't open for nothing MH there are houses that I went through five five times trying to just get to them and they wouldn't open the gates always locked I think I may put up one just to avoid you and uh knocking on my door in the future six time you're better um but that's um so if they're going to open and they're going to go out to the community they're going to do it whether they have a hedge a wall see-through fence no matter what I I again I understand the purpose of the legislation but in reality if nobody wants if they don't want to go meet their neighbors in going to go meet their neighbors um that's one my other concern is that we set a standard at at six feet and then we're going to have Carol and George going out there and probably fighting with bunch of residents because they're going to be like I've had my hedge like this for 10 years and now you're going to make me cut them so I'm just saying we're let's pick our battles uh our code enforcement officers have a lot to work on maybe we defer this um um to will we have more code enforcement officers that we can actually fight this but I'm just saying but I think more important yeah I don't I don't I think there's more important things but I would tell you having a standard that's reasonable in a front yard for perspective you know and requiring it to be permitted is probably not the worst idea right and so if the if the consensus is six feet I'm I'm fine with six feet I just I I struggle with the fact that we if it's vegetative material you can basically do whatever you want right we were telling people if you want to put stone work it's four feet so I would tell you I would certainly be happy to entertain it's not showing it down the hill on but I think just to kind of create and give Marcus and staff some tools to work with you know let's just say six feet and bring that back uh and I think in the front yard we should probably require people to permit permit uh Landscaping to enclose the yard I don't know if you if you want to put a tree in your front yard what I'm sorry sorry sorry I didn't understand you you want people to pull a permit to put a clusia hedge in their front yard is that what you said I don't I don't know I think I'm not sure how else we would enforce any standard they were required to pull a permit to erect a wall in their front yard right the CL hedge essentially is a vegetative wall right so I don't think we're treating we're not asking people to do anything that's inconsistent we would ask someone who decides to use another material right it requires more engineering More Design because it's got Footers and whatnot but but I think if you're going to enclose the front yard yeah I mean what's I mean I will tell you permitting for single family homes I I mean my permits came I mean I renovated my entire house and we got our permits inside of 15 days right in terms of the reviews here 10 years ago I don't think it's changed that dramatically I know that when you build a new home it's certainly much more elaborate can I askam sure of course do you have to permit hedges in in any other City okay so the reason why you would have to permit a concrete wall is because the Florida building code requires it it's regulated the Florida building code doesn't regulate vegetative material so do any other City we would not legally be allowed to require a building permit to put in landscaping we could create a zoning permit and say because this is a city standard so it would never be the same it would never be the same standard for both but you can say you need a zoning permit to do this and other cities do things of that nature for landscaping for painting things like that that aren't regulated in the building code but they want to regulate it locally and they create the zoning permit me sure um I'm okay with the if you guys want to go through with the six feet I don't know about having to pull a permit for landscaping I think we're opening up Pandora's Box and getting into Weeds now that are just guys I just think if we're gonna if we're gonna so the I think if we don't if we don't set up a process there's no way to enforce the standard well we don't and we don't know and we will not know what is new versus what was existing that's the only I I don't I don't want to make people do anything you know anything more than they need to do today but the truth is if we're going to have a standard it requires some way for us to verify that people are adhering to it because what I'm hearing today is we don't know what's out there because because no one you're not required logically to come in and and permit in any way or have it reviewed so um I think I think the issue is either we do nothing or if we want to do something then it requires some some monogam of process those are the two options and I'm going to say nothing okay so nothing nothing other way there I'm sure yeah there commiss Cory well I guess my question is if we consider because I do think there's safety concerns to have as well with any of those kind of barriers I guess Kusa you can see through if you have to relatively easy um and I and I do like the idea I I will say you cannot I have KES in my backyard I don't see my neighbors right but if you had to that's why that's that's why we put them there in the backyard we wanted to have a priv relatively private or semi-private backyard so it's a very you're not going to get any opacity so so for purposes of safety okay hedge would be a something that we would regulate in the side triangle anything that impedes a side triangle above those 30 inches would be regulated under that so that's on Corner Lots yeah and how's it regulated uh do we regulate here on driveways too yeah driveways also so you're backing up out of your driveway so that you can see if there's somebody climbing on the sidewalk or on the street here if there's no sidewalk so yeah it's not just corner lot so yeah if if it is already regulated in that way then I wouldn't I wouldn't be in favor of any further regulation safety is the big thing I think in my mind I'm fine with doing nothing so let's consider this item discussed and dispensed with and seeing is there any other business before this commission does anyone want to make any announcements yes I closed my computer I I'll just make a couple quick announcements uh um for those of you who are interested Tomorrow there's an event at casacuba where our County mayor is speaking 7:30 a.m. very good format with Community newspapers next week on the 13th uh I've been invited on a panel with commissioner Regal and others to talk about septic to sewer it's at casacuba as well 7:30 start if you're bored and want to come by and talk about uh about waste uh that's all I've got anybody else I'm ready you ready yes we are wishing February birthdays to Karina pon Andre Figaroa Rafael Hernandez Jasmine Gonzalez and Alfredo meltor happy birthday people happy birthday birthday birth further announcements nope okay seeing no further business in front of this commission We Stand adjourned thank you man the longest meeting on like the nothing you be there tomorrow probably not but speak