##VIDEO ID:sTrftpLmuUI## this government meeting is brought to you by eastw works and our local cable subscribers all right good evening everyone those out in TV Land on Charter 191 uh officially open tonight's meeting of the Southampton planning board Wednesday September 4th we have a quorum available tonight and we also have our board consultant Richard Harris here and tonight's agenda there are no building permits tonight and it's a working session primarily tonight for zoning revisions um Mr Harris here with us and in your packets everybody on the board there's you also receive this by email but I printed it out as well to have here for reference the uh zoning revisions for uh accessory dwelling units formerly known as accessory apartments and followed by the uh revisions for site plan review so this time I'll have Mr Harris um open the discussion on the changes and the revisions that we will be addressing subsequently going to public hearing at some point so it could go on the town warrant for uh a town beating Mr Harris Let's give a little background on this what's happened is in the bond bill they the legislature passed the a Housing Act that amended various provisions of chapter 4A uh masterin law which is counton referred to the zoning law there's a variety of changes in it but one specific change related to assessory drilling units they defined accessory drilling units uh in such a way that they have now made them an exempt use subject to only reasonable Reg ation at local level um among the Restriction among the elements of definition it has to be a self-contained unit with uh living facilities cooking facilities Etc but can be attached or detached on the same parcel uh communities may not require that it be on and occupied either principal or accessory but the unit has can't exceed 50% of the principal drill unit or 900 square ft whichever is smaller uh so the and you it's unclear what they mean by board approval mine saying you could have planed board approval so does that mean site plan approval you cannot require a special permit that' be special permit has always been considered unreasonable regulation so I've had this for in another community that was working for and at the last minute I revised their bylaw as well with the work with the building commission on that and essentially what I suggest is we take the state definition replaces your assessory department definition with the state definition so it's consistent um permit required a building permit is required for renovations or for building new one um and that's important because somebody may have existing house and they only do interior work still need to get a building permit a lot of folks don't realize that but you're opening the wall you're you're doing something with electrical something with you've got to get a building permit um I've added I've tried to use the existing accessory carb Provisions as much as possible and so do make too much dramatic change so for the purpose section I had some concerns about some purposes you have but I don't think the uh deal breakers but I want to add one in here that was to provide reasonable regulations for the development accessory Dr units as Allowed by Mass General law 48 Section 3 that's part of the purpose of this so we're very clear about it uh wherever you had accessory departments that's change that's going to be changed to accessory drilling unit mhm so what happens if the bylaw is doed and we haven't yet adopted regulations well I would suggest that what we do is we would develop the whole package well I'll develop uh board policies and procedures okay before then okay uh I uh I would always recommend that where you have bylaw being adopted and says rules and regulations or policies and procedures have a draft of those ready to go in case town meeting says yes on the zoning by law uh some a lot of community historically have not done that uh for I've got a project for one community that site plan review bylaw provides for them to have rules and regulations they've never adopted rules and regulations in like five years and so they got a new planner he said we need to get these in so I dra I draft this so I would generally recommend that if your rule if your bylaw Amendment says you may adopt rules and regulations or you should have rules and regulations have those in place ready to go and be adopted the town mean says yes one provision of the state law is you can only have one assessory dring unit on parcel so there's one way of dealing with that that is say you only have one unless you have special perent Grant to allow more than one so there's a way the B could be addressed to lot more than if you wanted to um so now you had some general language in here about location access and conform the single family character of the neighborhood that's kind of vague language so I lied to very specific issues sest drill unit shall have we maintain a separate entrance either directly from the outside or through an entry hall or Corridor shared of the principal dring sufficient to meet the requirements of State Building Code for safe ESS again following building code um you had language in here about no greater than 600 square ft and number bedrooms provides that to conside coincide of the state law which says no larger in grosser sing shall be shall not be larger in Gross floor area than one half the gross floor area of the principal building or 900 square ft whichever is smaller MH your parking requirement was kind of difficult to understand so I made more clear there sh be at least one off street parking space for each accessory drill unit where assess Dr unit is part of in attached part of or attached to a primary parking space should be incorporated into the parking area for the primary structure possible you don't want to increase in impervious surface if you can avoid it um you required a special permit that's been changed to building permit and then I put in your section or ancestry drill unit by special permit [Applause] may allow for more than one on a single lot lot somebody they wanted to have accessory Dr unit within the house and then they want to have one detached or have two detached and they've got a large amount of property you could allow them to apply for a special permit and they make meet the stands with special per you can grant them that to have one the one remember the state law on it says they're entit one that's it um that would have to that would have to meet the requirements of uh Board of Health right right nothing here would negate the Board of Health approval of septic tank septic system where that's applicable so it has come up and just wonder if I can get a grasp on a citation we can set whatever lot size we want as a zoning matter but when the Board of Health gets involved for on-site septic disposal the majority or a large part of the town is in the groundwater protection Zone a zone two and my understanding but I'm looking for a deeper understanding is that title 5 has a nitrogen loading standard for Zone two deemed sensitive resources mhm at 440 gallons per day calculated at 110 gallons per bedroom per acre per day per acre uh acre day which way it goes yes and uh the upshot is one four bedroomroom house per acre mhm it when you apply D limitation over top of our groundwater protection does that sound right and do you have a citation for that that sounds right that's what I'm familiar with um but I'll just note that nothing in zoning negates having comply with Board of Health and set requirements right ever so if you've got a really small two-bedroom house mhm and and no let's say you've got a normal three-bedroom house conceivably on an acre you could add one bedroom accessory that's what the Bo on there and this and the other community I work with somebody raised the question plan board there raised a question they said if I've got a house with if I could allot this small house on it it's can I do an Adu or let's say the house is less than 900 square F feet could I then build a principal larger principal structure y of 1,800 Square ft and called this Adu our opinion the building commission I talked about we feel you could do that so if somebody has that small structure and they don't have one bedroom they could in theory build a three-bedroom unit and called this ancestory J there's a I've witnessed that done where the rationale was historic and what became the guest house was right profoundly historic and unlivable and I think part of from zoning perspective part is going to depend upon what the zoning BW said say in terms of setbacks and where the accessory building can be in front of a principal structure not because typically the most people build this their home or have the home right at the closest part of the lot they can to the road if you have B it says no sex structures in front of the principal structure then you could have issue of building the large house behind it um in some communities the port of the Zone zba would Grand wave on that and they' be on the way um yes is the definition of principal structure in here is that differentiate what a and principal this accessory dring is by the definition of accessory it is um uh related related to uh on the same line as a principal drilling so you have to have principal drilling to have aness drill so and the other the other approach one could take make an argument if somebody has a 800 900t structure they could in theory do 1,00 foot addition to that and if find portion of that as Adu and portion as principal structure so and that be lab right now now the pre-exist as far as your Board of Health it question they still had to meet Board of Health requirements right and I spoke before we started the meeting um and this is entirely different than that but it's probably an offshoot of it the pre pre-existing non-conforming Lots in town that are some of them are a half acre some of them are acre some are more than that but they don't have the frontage and when I spoke to Board of Health a couple years back about it she that's how she um explained it to me she says half acre is minimum two bedroom U acre or more is three or four bedroom that da da so that's that's possible to restructure some of the the Lots we have in town that don't conform right now and Board of Health RS don't L ready to Frontage it's what the lot is exactly uh that the frontage becomes a zoning question as opposed to Port of Health question but there's also something in the legislation I I have been asked about so I need to dig into it that changes the concept of merger Doctrine some lots that we thought used to that we that used to merge will no longer merge under the new legislation and I've got to read in get into that more cuz that was not as clear as the Adu portion um so my my my suggest language on special permit is that you get a special permit to more than one um and do one that allows a larger accessory drug unit than Allowed by right um and May and the special per should be able to then require more parking spaces if you're allowing a larger unit for instance um but that no special burent shall alter the otherwise applicable standards and then considering the requested special permit board may requ may consider whether the additional Adu or larger Adu will be compatible with architectural style of the primary Drilling and any other Adu on the lot so the idea of there being in somebody's applying for a special permit and they've got nice woodsiding houses and they want to put up a very modernistic structure that looks totally different we could say no we need keep in character of what you've got there um this applies only to the special permit only to the special permit uh because they're applying for special permit to get a larger unit business but it doesn't it feel a little in your business if if you're applying for the special permit M special permit is special relief it's special so Commission in that with that qualification On's by right I'm following along but I'm interested in doubling back to Paul's point if someone comes forward with a pre-existing non-conforming but they're entertaining an exempt use so what do we do with the pre the question is what is the nature of the nonconforming well um if it's a let's follow along let's let's say a house that's nonconforming because setbacks I don't think they would reply if you got non-conforming lot which means it's not a qualified building lot then you couldn't get building permit for the second residence the for any reason if it's a it's a non-forming lot you've got to get a special finding from the uh zba or maybe planning board all right cuz Paul's example I'm imagining you know they're shy on Frontage but perhaps have extra acreage so they're passing on Title 5 basis and yet they're preexist and nonconforming just changed the question is what is a non formity that that's what you have toy most of the ones I'm speaking of are Frontage and I'll bet most of them are Frontage a non-conform lot does not qualify for a building permit right but how do we how do you change how do you change the Zoning for that what what part of the zoning is do we attack well we could meend there's sever ways you can approach it we could amend the dimension requirements to do away with the front requirements you also do what another Community does that they um I thought it was very creative when went to work with them on interim basis they had a provision there for special permit for dimensional variation so somebody that had a lot that or wanted to build something that didn't meet the setback requirements or the lot didn't meet the specific Dimension requirements could apply in that case the zba for special permit for dimensional variation not a variance and there zba had difficult time handling that but it's not a variance it's a dimensional variation and the reason they did that was under state law to get a something that meets the standard for variance is really tough question but you could create a special permit for dimensional variation ation that has different standards I questions on regarding that um you said trying to quote you you cannot get a building permit if you have a non-conforming lot so if I have a house or a non-conforming lot I can't put in the bathtub well that's a building permit and the other question is could build a new drilling unit if I do something that uh is long as what I do doesn't make it more non-conforming would still be allowed you I think that's clarify you said no build permanent if it's non-conforming but if they're doing something that makes it not more non-conforming there has to be a finding usually by zba that's that's not an issue wouldn't you have to be identified as pre-existing non-conforming already and then that would kind of um capitalized on the other renovations and stuff because you've already you're already pre-existing non-conforming so why would that prevent you from doing any renovation yeah let me clarify my clarify the my point was building permit you couldn't get new uh building permit to build new new build new house on it because it's not forming it's not lot empty lot right then you cannot get a building per for it's not if you're if you got nonform lot and you want to alter your existing building that's fine now if you have if you have a grandfather lot that meets the standards for grandfathering then you could get a building permit to build on it just make that clear too but that a grandfather lot is nonform lot but nonform lot is not always grandfather lot just so we've can sufficiently confused the people at home about this topic I think we're doing a good job um that's that's a good point there's a difference between pre-existing and grandfather right um application procedure basically there out except a building permits required and that's applying for special permit um transfer ownership that really doesn't apply anymore because you not you don't you can't time Lim at these CU there's uses um and then the accessory departments in existence before adoption this section I understand what was trying to be achieved but I think with this new change I don't think that even really applies anymore because if they meet the standards and state law they're exempt regardless um so that that's what I've done on these um on Adu that I think sufficiently would meet the state law and there's some question in some communities well why should we bother with this I mean we wait that till whenever well you may find out some like another community did that the new state law is getting a lot of attention a lot of press and people starting look at oh I can do this without getting special permit without living in one I've got a client that I just advised him to wait on his property in Hadley and an Amherst until February 3rd yeah and he pursue it by right and we got to deal with board of health questions so when you say that say for instance a town doesn't pass their bylaw by that time is that um [Applause] I think then what happens is somebody goes into Building Commissioner gets says I want to build a Adu in my backyard my house is 2200 square ft my Adu is going to be 900 and here's the building plans you don't have any reason regulations on it as long as he meets the state law requirements there you go and building code he's entitled building permit uh that's reason in sou community building commission I felt it was essential for them try to get something that identifies reasonable regulations on the books are you suggesting that we try to do that as this at a special town meeting or because the annual is in May yeah you see I would suggest if you can get at the fall town meeting is there one schedule that you know of or heard of no there's some discussion whether there might be one in the fall or the early winter or yeah I would suggest what I would suggest is you could wait to see what the more likely time frame is but if there's a chance that they may have a winter special time meeting have a public Hearing in November so remember public hearing the zoning B amendments is good for 6 months so if you have no nber and then they have a special time meeting in February you're you're fine if they don't have a special meting law then you got to do another public Hearing in the spring for the Maytown meeting but but if there's possibility of having a winter town meeting I suggest we look at the November early December that be carried um once the town passes a bylaw isn't it um not effective until reviewed by the state attorney a ag actually it's it's in effect when Town M adopts it okay somebody can apply at their risk um if they want to apply before the AG approves it and is follows the publication requirements they can submit an application at their risk but it does you look at the stat statute it's effective upon Town maen adoption it's one of those things that was in effect but if AG rejects it it's no longer in effect that means any permit anything you got in the meantime is invalid and I would suggest that any permit would then be issued during that time frame note that it's at their risk not at the town's risk and in fact we I worked in the community was working in the community where we had common driveway changed like that so my wanted to apply uh before the AG approved it and we specified in your application state that you're applying at your risk for the purpose and I Town Council there said make sure that in any decision it says they applied at their risk and your your last page there for the uh the chart I accessory uses yes right so you you cross out planning board you put in special permit but according to your chart rest p is sp is use by right Rec site plan approval all right I thought SP was special per two to read your chart this is site plan approval yeah I and that's one of the things I'm going to suggest that we do some at some point down the road is change the chart to be spr for site plan review and SP for special perog plan Bo yeah um but the reason makes sense for SP is because the chart still has uh special per by uh zba select board and those Bas are going away so so the next sheet is the warrant article uh which will be and then before we go that let me also note that for site plan review you cannot deny the use if a use is exempt in SE site plan review you're still limited to looking at for the the reasonable regulation not not the broader uh review that you normally do for site plan there so I'm assuming this sheet with the purpose of the warrant article is for the the warrant publication right yes so the except for the top portion up here it's the proposed the purp of the warrant article that section is for your information not for that's pretty lengthy and that all has to be spelled out in the warrant huh it some communities do that some communities what they do is they draft the warrant see as stated in attachment a or whatever and then they they put in as attachment and provide the handout with the red light yeah uh it depends how Community does it this this is longer than the original bog after you edited [Music] it that's quite a bridge now the Adu uh yeah bylaw compared to the old one it is different it's um we going go to site plan approval before we get off this Adu thing though does the board want Richard to just look into uh how we might pursue uh in in zoning revisions the non-conforming lots that are in town that property owners have that might give them an opportunity to develop that with a small small home or something for I'd rather clarify it now than later yep yeah it seems it would be right for the I use the right term s plan review oh before we get off this too we just had a couple dimensional variations the hook that I like MH just before we get off of that Richard I just um so now this can be inhabited by any tenant not just a uh caregiver or a family member correct correct right next question how is this going to affect or will it affect anything to do with these small or tiny homes that are uh I would expect that as long as they meet the State Building Code and they're a total complete housekeeping unit they will fit in as accessory drilling unit does that have to be put in the uh table of use regulations and and um definitions or something no um I think that I think as long as it meets the definition of Adu they and meet these standards they'll be fine all right there was one issue that um some of these come that are on on Wheels now that it would that wouldn't be applicable would it anything that would be I wouldn't think that meet the building code right did I read that septic facilities are required in a dwelling unit you have to meet whatever you it has to be fully plums I mean you got to have bathrooms all the accessory requirements not an outside no right facility okay well the questions been raised before that's that that goes to to Dan's on the list for the uh Airbnb or the definition is glamping or camping or whatever the definition is a self-contained housing inclusive of sleeping cooking and sanitary facilities MH yep yep so yeah all right so you can you can have this place you sleep and then have another building that you do your you missed that whole story it's very entertaining there's somebody on hike on YouTube they uh they refer to it as taking the bio break I was I going to say composting toilets so so you can't have place you sleep and cook and have another building for your bio break that that won't work I'm just wonder you know like with composting toilets is that um something that could decrease the U sewage discharge rate that would allow more than take Charlie connect the question was would the bard of felt say the compost toward it meets the sanitary code I would not think the answer is yes but I don't know that I would think they would say no how about a porta potty that's that you have that mean that's for temporary use that's not for year round occupancy year round use that's like a hold in tank those temporary uses those are not permanent uses well can we now that we're on the subject because it has to do with housing but that um we have an issue in town here where there is a you know that camping mhm glamping spot um is there some way we can address that it might be several people in town that have a lot of acreage and they want to they want to have campers come or something can you do anything like that on a seasonal basis uh provided that it's passes mustard with the Board of Health you can amend the zoning bylaw to make that a permitted use by special permit or by right I mean you can you can put in your bylaw to allow seasonal uh uh seasonal residential facilities either temporary structures or permanent structures by in your BW if you want to and and not air Airbnb because people get confused with that this lady thought originally that you know her thing fell under a B and B it wasn't even close but I mean that's one thing Airbnb is a platform it is not a use it's a short-term rental it is a platform for short-term rental it is not a use it's trademark inde uh you got um was it vermo or what you have about half dozen of these platforms but it's a short-term rental that's that's question so you can make a bylaw that regulates shortterm rentals all right so would you put that on your list okay to to do some research on that and also clarified as Airbnb baloney um short when you say short term would it be is that the term you use rather than seasonal yeah short term because some people will do these it depends where you're living some people do short Terminals and the big time is in May and June if they're around in College University um if they're in the mountains often times it'll be in Winter if they're on a lake most often it'll be in summer sometimes winter is good ice fishing uh so there's different seasonal periods that are better so you call them short-term rentals that regulates what they do is regulates uses that are are resid structures occupied for less than 30 days all right so how are you going to Define short-term rental versus camping because a shortterm rental it's not a house it's not a cottage short-term rental is a short-term rental is usually a dring unit or a portion of a drilling unit Ed for short-term occupancy if you want to have uh recreational facilities and camping I recommend that be a separate provision I I thought where we were headed is that because it's an exempt use you'd follow the path to permit an Adu but the way you use it is in as short-term rental yeah typically you most communities are not going to want to have adus built for short-term rental no that because it takes away from the housing Supply right um but we can look at short-term rentals and if you want to look at recreational uh lodging facilities we can look at that as well and that's how I would term uh campers or tent camping would be recreational lodging does that sound like something that short-term rentals yeah that covers the biggest concern I see with these is depending on the acreage some somebody has or how many how many units that they would put in because the first thing people are going to U the neighbors are going to be uh inquiring about is the amount of traffic you know amount of vehicles I think that's what triggered this one originally is uh people saw headlights coming from far into the field one of the neighbors or something so that's going to trigger it there tend be at least two maybe three things that Trigg people most often number of Mount traffic sanitation facilities and noise potentially a fourth one is fire hazard uh because you have people out the camping where they having the fires where they where they taking their bio braks um so those are four things that typically trigger people's reaction and that's the reason I would suggest it's one thing about short-term rentals but you're talking about recreational lodging like camping I justest that definitely be a special permit doesn't that involve you know with some you brought up a good point when it comes to um Public Safety or fire whatever isn't that going to um trigger something for these folks that want to do this when it comes to liability insurance on their property yeah I would um I would expect yes but I also tell you that were you sign a waiver folks that do that use a lot of folks you um put their properties out on Airbnb or v v Vero vermo verbo whatever it is verb um and I have a friend mine who him her and her partner have used Airbnb a lot and they had a really bad experience and I said well understand that all those are not inspected that's been trigger that's been big problem on communities is anybody can list the property on Airbnb that doesn't mean they have Board of Health or fire department inspection could you write that in the bylaw yeah I think what you'd want to do is that that's one reason for requiring special permit for those type of things is you would require for instance especially in the camping one an operation management plan that they'd have stick to require at least monthly inspections by Board of Health and uh Fire Department police at their at the property owners spense and those there certain things you want require that the town tax person had pay for um and yeah because you let say you had 150 acres and you wanted to put 200 tent sites out there campsites that doesn't sound like on density basis a lot 200 over 250 but it's probably going to be 200 over a 30 acre portion of it it's going to be concentrated more so than you would want and you want to be sure it's well managed instead of people dropping the trade in there and basically living there year round you want to be sure that is only a seasonal operation should we should we get into something that large though or should we put a cap on the on theze on the acreage I mean I don't I don't think the town would go for something let me um that big let me do research 100 acres or 75 I mean it's a great business Enterprise but on the same token we want to go that route let let me suggest I'd do some research and bring back to you how it's addressed in some other communities there you go and then we can have that discussion that time so it can't be unique it's got to be a no but you know to just on a personal from my own personal opinion I I empathize for the uh the lady that um had this come up beautiful piece of property in a buts of Conservation Area and there are people that want to get away out in the country from wherever a couples or something like that you're not you're not talking um a rockus type of group uh that whatever and I can understand um I understand that that um that um the type of uh philosophy she had in a beautiful piece of property helps her pay pay for the taxes but also it's public enjoyment so I don't I don't uh begrudge her that does it meet the setback from the conservation land I I didn't walk the property this these the of Health was out there with it I don't know how far away from it you know any of that well that's part of the question we need to look at is and people use the term conservation land in different ways I look at conservation land is as property that's under the car and custodianship of the Conservation Commission in this case some people look at it from is it Wetlands right so separate issue yeah yeah no but yes and an issue that could come before the commission um or should perhaps be looked at Harder um agent said no it's no it's not Wetland I said it's a 200 ft back from the perennial river sure yeah it's jurisdictional but it's jur jurisdictional but it's not necessar conservation land correct you still on conservation we have in this case we have article find out if if it uh if that it did it come before no I I haven't seen that so how far let me do some research on this topic and bring back some examples uh because and I I say what I did by conservation because there's a setback required for a perennial stream Aon mint stream Wetland but there's not a setb back from quotequote conservation land a buting lot yeah right whomever just just want be clear if conservation owns is managing that doesn't necessarily have setback it's the Wetland or resource area that has a setback requirement side yard rear yard applies right yeah no matter but the minimum and that may not be and my guess is when ter this type use that's not going to be sufficient not Dan excuse me a minute Sten Dan you could also inquire with u the building inspector Ron because he was involved in that as well so he would he would know on the property L I'm assuming where where the cabin or the A-frame was built okay see how far if he's got any dimensions on it sure so i' take a look at both these topics of shortterm rental and recreational lodging all right sorry to get off the track but that's all good stuff somewhere on the agenda was um update on the LTA Grant uh work with pvpc is that on the zone 2 update and Barnes active group I'll update that after we get want go through site plan review first yeah let's finish this and he's got it on his list he's talked to PBC PC about that okay I wanted to make sure we were going to get to that good continue you want essentially what I've done it your the current zoning bylaw has site plan review and site plan approval as two distinct levels of review site plan approval is generally considered to be the F the ultimate goal or purpose of site plan review um and so this amendment seeks to bring your current dichot me into a more uh customary structure of site plan review is that and then have provision for minor site plan view that that's more appropriate so any project subject site plan review would have an approval phase some be through a minor site plan review process some be through the regular review process the purpose for most I tried to stick with your existing purposes that applied to site plan approval uh which was the more stringent standard um and basically it requires site plan review for any construction alteration or expansion of a residential drill building of two or more units any principal accessory building Ed for exempt use and any non-residential building and I use those three because that's currently what your bylaw says for site plan approval um any exempt use also would have site plan review and that's different from a building for for instance somebody is has a site plan um let's say they can use property for keeping cattle keeping horses is in residential area but under state law remember if you have an agiculture use that occupies two acres or more and you make at least ,000 per acre from agriculture use is a Zen from zon so in theory somebody could have a couple of horses out there cattle may be a little bit more dense than what you're used to but they can raise a couple and sell them off on an annual basis for and make a couple thousand it's easy or maybe the manure they can sell I don't know whatever but um so there maybe a use that's aemp that you don't have S plan uh any uses identified in your use table require uses permitted by right with site plan approval changes of use where the new use will require more than more parking than the previous use you've got a shopping center somebody has a retail space in it and they're going to change that to your restaurant and the restaurant may have more parking requirements than the retail use or office use construction expansion of of parking lot that may have some impact on buffers and neighbors properties Etc site plan review for exempt uses these are uses that under chapter 48 Section 3 are subject on reasonable regulations it makes it clear that the purpose site plan view is for compliance with reasonable regulations relates to parking Open Spaces Building height and building set back requirements that's how we were able to get that incorporated in South Aly the AG basically mimic that language and they said fine um exemptions and these I took pretty much from your existing bylaw a building wholly or partially destroyed by may be rebuilt without site plan review by by the planning board if rebuilt without change the building footprint or the square footage of usable space if it's destroyed and they and they had a 2,000t footprint and now they will make 3,000 they got have site plan review site plan review is not require for changes of use where the fallowing conditions are met proposed use does not require a special permit there are no proposed or required outside alterations or additions to the existing buildings and parking area they may not propose it but the bylaws or state code may require additions in that case they need to for instance exits they may have to have additional exits and uh Landing areas or the parking may require additional five parking spaces all those things so that would still require a site plan review the plan War chair or the plan board's consultant and other communities have you it's been used as Town planner we don't have Town planner in consultation building commission and Board of Health determines no additional changes onet on onsite Disposal system or additions to parking or required and that's why the Board of Health is include in there make sure that Board of Health isw this proposal and then there's section relationship to building permits and special permits um basically any any of these have uh conformed approv site plan they had to approve site plan for the commence the activity and special perm required site plan special per will be integrated together fortunately in Southampton now that's all planning board for special permit so that makes it simple plan will May adopt or shall adopt op and May from time to time amend reasonable policies and procedures what my philosophy in zoning bylaw amendments Zone bylaw Zone bylaw Provisions should never specify the number of copies at that be submitted applications they plan contents Etc that should be in your polies and procedures of rules regulations um not in the zoning language not in the zoning bylaw itself the reason being uh I'm doing project another Community there bylaw specified you had to 15 copies had to be submitted okay that's probably written 20 years ago nowadays you had this thing called a computer and a lot of folks submit things on PDF so you no longer needed circulate hard copies what a concept I like I like that you reduce number of hard copies and give me a PDF we put on on the website so the public can look at it and we email out to the Departments and board members so they going look at it you don't have to buy some big envelopes and collate and stuff and take them to the post office and have them weigh um don't you have to allude to it in in in the zoning bylaw that refer to policies and procedures for whatever right yeah and that's why this is in here yeah says you shall adopt them and the adoption is with within the sole purview of the plan plan right so that if we decide 14 copies is not enough you amend you hold public hearing amend it and require more uh in South Hadley what we did was we said two hard copies and one PDF and planning board reserved the right to request additional require additional copies if during the review process that became necessary 99 out of 100 that won't required or n out of 10 anyway but sometimes get into that more complex project and more people want to see hard copies okay give us six more hard copies and I remember when we adopted that Jeff sire was plan Bo chair and Jeff had just submitted a plan that day to Northampton they required 17 hard copies one for every town Department that with this big around and their sustainable Community got had and uh he said this makes so much more sense because most those cop is going to be thrown in recycling or trash MH people never going to look at them a fire hazard somebody and so think all the trees you just cut down for this so we um yeah so we adopt that provision and I remember two times telling applicant we need three more copies of your plans because certain particular departments and one member of planning board one look a hard copy all the other times the PDF was one than sufficient M yeah other we I used to use the website as a archive storage but could always look at them if if that's what we're asking of the applicant we need to reassure the chair that he need not make copies on his printer and distribute hard copy PDF works for me and yeah this package came even with the late edition it's perfect the um the big thing is the plans that that's that's big and the drain studies those are two things that why you have 17 copies of those I don't understand and the other we require in rules and regulations is whenever there's a revised plan H or revised material that has to be submitt in the same quantity and format as the original yeah so it's good all that goes through but that's in your rules and regulations n your bylaw that you can change that so if you decide if your rules and regulation said seven you decide hey we would fund four of these in the trash every time down to three and again application and project review fees use of outside consultants and provision for Gran waivers and all site plans and submissions shall conform to the plan board polies and procedures um and then outlines procedures for applicants review of the process review of the applicants now your current bylaw says you make decisions in 60 days dat of smittle I don't know if you want to change that to 90 or not I think 90 is more gives more latitude doesn't mean you have to take 90 but the r now is this somebody spits an application on a Friday you don't have a town plan look at it plan War chair takes a look at it a week later cuz he's on vacation somewhere then you advertise the hearing so now you've got about 42 45 days from day to submitt and then the plan will needs to extend it because you're waiting for Board of Health to comment or waiting DPW you have to get a approved extension with the applicant if if you have a 60-day period because you only meet every twice a month if you allow a 90-day period you've got more flexibility there without requesting extensions to cover everything that's I I I do 90-day period but I just want I highlight that want to get your feedback is there a state regulation regarding the now on side plane view uh special permits you have to begin the hearing in 65 days is middle and you have to render a decision within 90 days of public hearing essentially that's when and that's always been interpreted as when the public hearing ends yeah it's it's vague about that but that's how it's always that's it's universally interpreted that that way almost University interpreted that way well from experience we've never had anything go that long but I like the I like the your idea of the leeway but I we haven't had anything in my time on this board that's ever gone beyond the 60s but it'd be nice to have the leeway in case you run into some circumstances where you've got a lot of delays and um continued hearings did I read constructive approval comes up in certain cases yeah because we can be generous with our time frame hopefully avoid the deadlock on a contentious issue but it might take time to work it through if we fail it's deemed approved right and that that's that's even if your bylaw doesn't address it that's the consideration I like to be more explicit about it uh that constructive approval occurs if you don't act and action isn't just you're taking a vote action is found in the decision with the Town Clerk and applicant um so when you talk about the nine days that that's not just to complete review that's to actually have the written decision and send it and have it stamped um you gave with 90 you want to change that to 90 just to give us the leeway I'm I'm leaning more towards the 90 do hurt again it doesn't prevent us from closing the hearing early always act earlier just acting later gets you more of a problem and then 40 uh public hearings commencing within 45 days of spittle I received the application um and um I've got in applicant notification of a buts usually I put notification on buts in the rules and regulations and to some degree more details would be in there but since you require the applicant to notify voters I felt it appropriate put that in the bylaw itself and is 300 ft the minimum that's that's what your bylaw says we look at if you looked at the requirement for a special permit it's notification parties and interest parties and interest are not every than 300 ft parties and interest are about as the property and that includes properties across the street from it the circumference of no no and parties in interest that are contiguous to a Butters 300 ft on the same side of the road it's and I I when I first moved to Massachusetts and started working with South Hadley I read that different end talked to the assessor and she said no you look at the actual wording of the statute it's very specific and it's not above than 350 ft of 300 ft of property it's a buts like contigous and a buts to buts and 300 ft and that basically the same side of the road so but your bylaw says a B is in 300 ft of the subject prop landfor and that's the reason I have that in there um fasinating was there anything in uh there's nothing in here that says whether it should be um certified return receipt mail or anything like that c certified they had provide proof better so it doesn't have to be certified that could be in your rules and regulations um there's different ways you can Prov provide proof but most commonly that's done through certified mail but as long as it's verifiable right they have provide proof and we address that in the um board's policies and procedures then it goes through the decisions and that had to be buil perm and use have to be compliant with it no permit issued until without written approve of the site plan approval a site plan submission shall require firm the votes of a majority of the board as constituted three out of five and I took that from your existing bylaw [Applause] that is not necessarily what is required everywhere for instance the and the re reason this becomes significant let's say Mark and Steven don't attend the hearings and they're not for some reason they're not qualified Vote or they're not present for the hearings or present for the vote and just you Paul Fuda just three other members and this is worded it requires ninous voted those three members absent this language would be interpreted be majority of the qualifying qualified members to vote present mhm so if only three were qualified to vote it only requireed two major two vote majority but I went with the language you have right now I just want thr that out and uh yeah cuz I had that come up on a project another community and Town Council said only the majority they were there Sil but what if there's four people so what if if there's four people and two vote one 3 one oh 31 okay thank it be be simple majority of be a majority of members qualified to vote I see but if it's and so if if there's only one member not qualified it's still three majority but if it's two that nonqualified and I recently had a u storm water permit where we had only two qualified members per pres so therefore they couldn't vote on it mhm and when they did vote we had four qualified members inquired a 3 to one vote only got two out of two that was a denial and the applicant made challenge that because one of them had issue but um the um yeah and if it came down to only three members it'd be a 2-1 vote and that'd be sufficient Paul I guess I would ask the maybe we consider changing it to the um the qualified members that are present so that we don't run into that situation of having to have yeah I don't have a problem we don't have the number people here I don't have a problem with that no so just footnote because I obsessed about things like this question about notice to AB Butters and who's an AB butter and is it a geometric problem or is it part geometry and part definition and I heard more in definition more in definition all right because I just double checked and um the town has invested in a hosted GIS application at tyan ball that has all of our um tax assessor data you know it's got also the [Music] U footprint of all structures it's enhanced beyond what you get normally from Mass mapper but some of the resource data is not as robust however there's tool mhm to find an address get the details about it and to get in a Butter's list right and it has choices adjacent or different radius so I put in rsus 300 I can imagine a case where that somehow might over include it does it always does it always over includes okay it never under includes it always over includes and that's reason the a bus is typically a certified bus list from the assessors MH that then go back they look at the 48 definition of parties and interest and they do that and then they you think exclude you think or I know in several other communities I've worked with they then exclude um parties that don't qu and if you've got a big parcel or complex boundary what's exactly 300 ft if you don't have a computer doing the buffer so that's the point if you have the link it's profoundly easy to generate that a butter slce and you can then and E it's just as easy to go then then delete the ones that don't fit in precisely so we're putting an obligation on applicant the applicant comes to the volunteer Staffing at the assessor's office and they need a cheat sheet of how the applicant can help themselves if you go by a certified list from the from the assessor's office well a cheat sheet so the volunteer Staffing the desk can do that with alacrity tell you don't have a full-time sessor or PID cessor no okay you used to have cesser well we have we have good stuff but I wouldn't say it's fulltime it's signed often certified by someone from the lists I've seen the signing piece wouldn't be a volunteer I'm sure but anyway having a tool even if the tool then needs adjustment and and so I I just think four steps on a cheat sheet would get us there but there it it would save a lot of pain and suffering um and how the assess now some assessors don't have that and they actually take their Maps yeah and they and the scale yeah and they got their SL they did it that way and that that becomes problematic if they leave someone out in real life it is going on today and and in real life if they leave someone out it creates a problem because somebody didn't get notice you got to read list it again could that be something we add to that policies and procedures document that it's more critical it's not so much you have to re advertize but somebody didn't get notice and they find out about it yeah you've rendered the decision they then appealed it in court and then the afcan says but I lied from the town and they said then want to have town rebert and on hold them harmless for damages that they've incurred and that becomes a Town Council challenge um Bo I never had that issue cuz we found out somebody didn't get properly notified we canceled the hearing and re-advertised S plan decisions shall be in writing made a post a public meeting and then fou the Town Clerk and you'll be amazed at how often I've heard about not me I've worked with other communities where one and two weren't done where they made decision and they didn't bother write it out it's in the minutes uh or they didn't include it on a posted at posted public meeting well we meet every month that on the fourth Thursday of every month well that's not sufficient have to have on the agenda um then it has to be mailed to the applicant and fou of the Building Commissioner extension deadlines applicants May request and plan W made Grant normally I just put this in p and regulations but in written decisions these options approval denial approve of reasonable conditions construct approval you fail to act then the time specified it is deemed constructive app canot obtain certification the action taken and that is same as an improved site plan and then I took some of your existing conditions standards made them into these review standards and you also can consider the conformance to your to the relevant requirements of your policies and procedures and then work must conform to approved site plan and then your your POS procedure set forth U consideration and acting Point request deviate and should be consulted determ whether such changes are significant enough to require public hearings and I say that because some communities The Building Commissioner will would make a determination that doesn't require action you want to make sure that the planning board is making this determination then put in here Min site plan review that takes your remember this p i gone through four basically is your exist sight plan approval process but applied to everything my sight plan review is a expedited review of those smaller projects that don't really there's no reason for public hearing it doesn't require a detailed review by lot of folks but it's still an input from people and I use the criteria you have right now um Min site plan view activity building do not require special permit variance or finding it's allow by right but not see the total increase in the footprint of the structure by 2,000 square ft personally I think 2,000 is a lot and I think it me I'd put down to 500 no more than a thousand something like that because it cu the thing we can get over no for instance that's pretty yeah that's pretty big for minor yeah for again your s plan review process which is essentially this uses 2,000 ft as threshold I think that's High um I think a th000 square feet is a more reasonable level yeah Mark you good with that Sten is a lot yeah it is so we'll change that to a th000 yes and the parking is no more than 10 you you good with that or is that more is that in is that in conjunction with the square footage the uh 2,000 that was there 10 I I would I would reducing them parking spaces down to five all right because you're reducing the other fact makes more sense to say no parking no additional parking is required Mark and the reason I say that because if it's you're doing you're not doing public hearing under minite point of view so let's say someone's doing a th000 foot building or even a 400 square fot building or no building but their use requires three additional parking spaces and those three parking spaces are going to have to be in the setback area and join somebody house those those folks going scream they found out that those trees that they've had for past 40 years with the joint neighbor at screening are now going to be gone because they're cleared out for the parking and they had no notice of it so I think it's not too much say hey if you're if you're going to increase the parking area not necessary one I want restructure it so that more spaces but more parking area somebody may have parking lot that they can just restripe and gets them the parking they need without alteration of vegetation so the parking limit is very traditional but the hot but issue you raise is tree removal is that a criteria for triggering a higher level of review I would say vegetation removal within the building within the required setback area because or larger than x dbh the I'm more concerned about within the setback area because yeah they may doing 4 and S foot addition but there's this in tree there that they need to take out cupet trees um or they may have to do more to in the um internal part of the property for Access but they're not getting then 20 ft of the joining property 10t I I so I say more as any alteration of vegetation within the uh required setback um is that you know be careful in wording I so I can't take any trees down within uh 10 ft of the property line if you do I have to come I'm just going to take if you do you can't do a minor sight plan review you got to do the regular site plan review I have to get a special permit to take sight plan VI view not special per okay site plan not not not a simple not if your project is removing tree only if your project house that's what I'm concerned the way it's worded right now if I take down a tree which I just did not too long ago right within 20 ft or 14 ft of my uh property line I have to come in and get a site plan review no you you'd have to go through the form the larger process if it's within the required setback area you have you know remove vegetation within that and it could be removed vegetation for purpose of spaning parking area because that's the big issue is somebody's taking vegetation down and they're putting drainage there because they need put drainage there and there may even be resolving a drainage problem issue are they taking trees down to that's going to be placed with parking area that's with pavement yeah I I agree that's the big issue yeah but it need to be worded so this clear that not just just taking tree down I mean I took trees down for cuz they were leaning on my house right so if the project was only cut down a tree you wouldn't be in this process at all um if you're cutting down a tree to increase the parking area right if you if if you tie it to uh the project you have to have a valid reason to be in the process and then that's one of the criteria or could be I mean or or we could leave the hell out I I don't want to make this um cers thank you that's a nice word owner us yeah how about we just deal with the number of parking spaces no no enlargement of parking areas sounded good for the reasons the the concern I have about parking spaces if somebody can restripe their park the existing P parking area and meet the requirement why go through the petering process oh yeah it's spanding the parking area area that results in removal of vegetation within required setback well parking space is around 200 sare ft yeah so you know it's in increas in parking area by more than 500 square ft or 400t any 18 no no no I thought I thought this was absolute if there was any increase in parking decide put a number one of the two yeah yeah yeah for for any additional parking requir site plan view the question is what would constitute a minor and for minor purposes if you're we you would not qualify if you're removing trees vegetation for expanding parking area within the required setback if you do that then you don't qualify for minor excuse me uh submission s form the rules the board's policies and procedures and then review procedures shall be set forth in your bodies and procedures um similar to what's required for regular review and decisions shall be what's required regularly um and made a public meeting for which the minor site plan review submission is listed as an agenda item and I put that specifically because some communs don't list these list all these on their agendas and they really no means long they really have to same review stands the others any site and then lapse any site plan approval shall lapse after two years when graned there if a substantial use uh has not commenced and the p and procedures will set forth guidelines as to what substantial use is okay because I would guess that if we did a poll here we come up with three or four different definitions of substan use um I in South had we had a project that it was a subdivision for and special permit and two phases one phase was 39 Lots one was 14 and plan some plan board members wanted to say all the Lots had to be built and houses on them for that substantial use I had the opinion that if they had most of the infrastructure in so that at least a majority of the Lots were qualifi for building Lots then that Mak made substantial use because a s Lots off we came up somewhere in the middle between the two of of them but so it's helpful to have some guidance in your poses and procedures is what that really means and helps the applicant know so they can find Finance it accordingly if they know they got to wait 5 years before they can get finished that's another question appeals are in accordance with 48 SE section 17 and violations are violation of your zon bylaw so with the changes talk about here everybody's pretty comfortable with this yes my next step is going to go through other sections of bylaw where you use site plan review site plan approval and get that in consistent with [Music] this okay that's all I have for [Music] tonight while you're here don't go away okay uh the if you recall the East Street AG voltaic on the bashista property at the orchard they um had to uh come up with a decommissioning agreement for shity purposes and stuff so they sent this along I forward it to Richard and he reviewed it they originally had a draft and then he reviewed it and brought back comments but this is the final product that Richard you um are comfortable with yeah for shity yes and just outline that briefly what what the decommissioning agreement entails basically untils uh shity to cover the removal of the facility in case it ceases to be used the original sh the shity they provided us is annually renewing shity but got an original amount set forth in the agree in the plan board decision and plan decision said they had to be increased every five years this decommission agreement will fit in with assurity agreement and that it commits them to providing the town with a updated Engineers estimate for in cost to decommission and then they provided updated shity to fit in with one 125% of that updated engineering cost $78,750 years there had be updated if up it increases to increases to 880,000 then they provide uh 100,000 I think it's 100,000 increase 100,000 shity at that time if it increases to 100,000 125,000 whatever every five years I need provide the board with a insur Engineers estimate update estimate and then new uh assurity for the increased amount 125 of% of the increased amount all the other thing I want to mention is before we go too far water suppot protection distri we touched that earlier I've met I've talked to Kyle at pvpc I'm having another Zoom meeting with him with him and Patty next week and the intent is for them to be on the agenda at the September 19th meeting I will miss the 19th so they're going to they're going to be or is it no 18th mean 18th whole week so the that's the dlta U yes water water supply and they're going to be presenting that night yes do you get the sense that the boundaries of the zone two have been refined I don't think they change much they're not looking at that they're not they're going they're going to be looking that too is whatever Mass DP has on the website as zone two Mass DP on the website Maps zone two they don't map Zone one and they don't map zone three no they do map Zone 2 on the website well Zone one is derived it's 400 ft it actually is not always 400 ft okay all right but our bylaw is's into zone two right Zone 2 triggers the nitrogen loading standard that limits the amount of density we can never achieve yeah um absent I used think it was 400t as well and start working with lone revising lunenberg water supply Protection District and they've got a water district that's got about eight or nine wells in some cases The Zone one is 250 ft it depends on the size of the well and a lot of other factors but it can go up to 400 ft so that's I think most be Ed 400 ft and just and then find out and then it doesn't go over water either apparently because it does the well doesn't draw from surface water body it draws underground so those Engineers all right so I know more about groundwater than I wanted to work on their bylaw do you want a motion to approve I was just going to do that so I've got them on I've just got to make sure okay so the 18th for pvpc and you will be here as well yes okay now getting back to the decommissioning agreement um do I have a motion to approve that I move that we approve the decommissioning agreement with the fiveyear uh adjustable assurity agreement Incorporated we have a second second motion made by Steven second by Dan any other discussion all in favor I I um now I'm assuming Richard that when I sign this send them a copy but I mean shouldn't this be in in the hands of the treasurer's office yes yes that's what I thought okay yeah I the treasure should always hold any grievance right um committee reports any committee reports I'll just take up air time you guys go first well I I I have nothing for for this committee that impacts this committee I have nothing to add okay Mark no we're um we're negotiating some changes for the um nothing is that what safety complex or yeah safety complex yeah Stephen um mostly it's a future activities but um tomorrow night the open space committee meets and um did Cindy have an opportunity to speak to you Paul uh no she expressed me that you might be looking for different representation from planning to open space Oh She on that issue yeah I told her I I had no desire to continue on it all right so you're Desiring to beg off and the plan board should identify someone else to represent I my my comment to her was because you're representing the select board and your for planning it's almost like a dual role to report here if you need be we'll get to that uh I'm wondering if someone else might like to volunteer to join the open space committee it's a very congenial bunch I know most you know Cindy I know Cindy I know Janet um she sometimes bakes through the committee uh yeah I'm I'm already got three three going and get some things going on personally so Dan's got the most stars for the most committee assignments I think yeah I'm committed all okay I I thought what you going to do is just let at the rest of the board's committees and just have Dan um okay so Cindy's aware and we have people engaged but nobody more to offer all right um and at this point um Paul FAL I'm expecting might be submitting his resignation soon oh dear because of his lack of uh he's got too many family commitments and one now happens on Wednesday so I'm unless there's a major change I'm just expecting that he might be withdrawing soon when does his ter Spire no he was just elected uh I think he was just elected this past year it's got at least three years to go three to four F maybe yeah four yeah i' encourage you to start identifying potential replacement at least on interim basis yeah but it's not official till I get his letter and submit it to the clerk taking it's not official till he submits it to the town clerk so all right want an update on 117 to 125 College Highway um Scott and I have been interviewing and talking to a variety of land use planners and Community engagement planners um to see if what we think we need to design and execute a RFP for different uses of the property um starting with the guaranteed use by the public safety building and the senior center um and we have also consulted with uh Pioneer Valley planning Council and today we made a pretty good connection with Mass Housing Partnership all right and uh both have obviously planners who do exactly this with some frequency and they may have discounted services or they may have aptitude that marries up with a traditional hired firm um but we have a proposal in hand from BSC BS BSC groupi group and we expect one in just a couple of days from birkshire Design Group oh yeah um yeah so that's that for professional help I'm sitting in with all the potential stakeholder boards and committees to see about flushing out their wish list for what part of the pie what they're thinking about and even as the task forces that are well along with feasibility studies you know Public Safety is re-evaluating square footage of that building that would have knock on maybe not huge impact but it it would reduce the footprint of the land area so looking for both um you know footprint of development plus separate count for parking so you understand about Generation Um but you know as I go through the table of use uh it's all RV and CV and the CV is limited to about 5 Acres along Route 10 and it's it's it's fairly awkward leave aside most we can do the two must do without bringing sewer but to do any meaningful amount of Housing and get critical mass it's going to require sewer so there's a whole bunch of things that fold together and they have to fold together in a reasonable timing sequence um for construction and finance but um we're getting real bids so that we can make a decision um in the in the short term now what exactly are you looking for them to do well it's the pony or the cart right um public engagement would start with input from the town boards and committees and you know that would be the two task forces Public Safety Senior Center U Conservation Commission because there's a parcel that's ideal for that and housing authority and the piece we're missing is around mixed use someone who has the commercial for-profit development mindset or the market rate housing piece we have collaborative Partners helping us think through how to approach affordable housing as a component understandable but what are you looking for the consern in product for the consultant public engagement survey a couple of public meetings will end up with a preferred plan then the engineers take a preferred plan and develop a engineered plan for conveyancing and maybe outside of the contract a further step the housing piece or the commercial mixed use will end up I don't want to presuppose anything if the town doesn't own it they need to be prepared to convey it with legal conveyance the reason I ask is you mentioned the assistant zoning restriction I would assume that the consultant will come up with a recommended plan for development including recommendation of how to re Zone the property to accommodate the desired plan and I would expect that would be a overlay District of some of some kind that would and I say that because I know I've been asked for other places that that had similar issues and you look at development in place and look at what somebody wants to do and say what do you want to do actually what you have does in conform to your zoning the community been off backwards to allow that to occur but if you want to go forward what you really should do is development overlay District that respects what you have have and incorporates what you want to achieve and I assume that's what you're and and there are several paragraphs about 40 r as a over it's not 40 R and I say that because if you do 40R you have to multi family has to be 20 units perer or more and it has to be 20 to 25% affordable housing as a condition for for it 40 R you're not going to get the uh incentive payment until the sewer is there unless you can demonstrate to the state that you're can use a incentive payment to to achieve the sewer not just plan for it but to achieve it and then they they had discretion to allow that M go forward so our feasibility study going on now at Ty and bond would lead to an expression of interest for one stop take it 25% engineering and queue up for Mass Works Mass housing uh but for the to really leverage the sewer investment with federal and state Ms but only only way you can get the mass works is if you have a developer on hand do you have what if you have a developer committed well okay we'll work on that and that's going it's a chicken EG question you don't have to sewer how's I going to commit and that's reason I think we look at 40R you need to look at the 2011 location as well as maybe this one as well uh cuz you're like a mile and half of sewer of which the first half mile from eastampton you have development potential on both sides of the road and then with conservation Wetlands you go for the next mile you may have this next mile is basically 2 mes Road Frontage you may have a half mile road Fage that has development potential so I'm I'm I'm not following you um they might be they might be looking at coming down the Green Way the Green Way which means you're doing Dead Space for a long period of time and that that comes from a sewer management perspective there there are a whole bunch of questions about whether to do sewer so there obviously have to be two scenarios if no sewer does it matter tinkering with the zoning because we won't get get you don't get you don't get the uh multif family for sure and and 40 for and so if sewer is going to be a big investment how do how big a community do we amortise it over what's what's the service area that's all being addressed upfront in the feasibility study and you know they've got to look at the OM andm cost of creating a whole new Department to R even though all the treatment would be in East Hampton we'd be running run a bunch of pipes in a different product what you want to do is you want to contract these Hampton to have them man man Sur line for you maintain it everything manage it but we'd own it you own it that they basically have them manage the maintenance of it well that's way out of my kit I otherwise what you're looking at is hiring DPW staff for this one segment line and that's a whole different bottle of wax from storm drain and uh water line and uh know again I I I've said before first thing I think you need to get even if East Hampton saying you were fine with you need some riding from eastampton that's your first step agreement with them to uh uh give you uh SE treatment capacity and I am understanding the benefit of going up the green way if you can make that work but that's that limits should development Potential from it that's usually when you look at sewer line one of the benefits you look at is how much V potential how much tieing can I get along the roadway because that can offset your development costs dramatically if if you're going through dead space as Mark now as you go to Dead Space sewer line that's that's like going through desert yeah you that's what feasibility sewer rats yeah no those those are all good questions and them tonight because I'm unqualified but you know uh the reduced construction cost to have a dedicated Main in the greenway where you're not dealing with M do mhm for all of those miles and you're not triggering explosive growth everywhere you're doing it very mindfully with essentially a u um a service limit you know uh the old fashion Annex thing You' you've got a service Zone well you're going to be Lim Ed by the amount of capacity that East Hampton agrees to give you ultimately but that seems to be a lot there first but they're going to I would be shocked if these H do say we're limiting to x amount because they need accommodate any potential growth they want to have no no no no of course they do that's that's this is net net that there's a big new pipe and we'll we'll have to see if it all proves out but um except for the 385 Main Street affordable housing development of known size nearly has its zba permit Jeff did a wonderful job presenting a month ago um that's a friendly 40b to accomplish what the zoning in place would not allow um this a friendly 40b promoted by the town where the town is developer I I'm not sure how that all works that you friend 40b is anytime you have a friendly town and friendly developer yeah well that that I think is required regardless and then we figure out how to paper the deal which form of overlay zoning is going to work for us if you um the most desired approach is if you can to make 40 yard District work then makes it whole lot easier with the developer the challenge in Southampton is to multif family and un 40 Ys the 20 unit per acre um you can do two family three family at 12 in per acre that may more viable is that the threshold that's minimum threshold so someone couldn't come in with a 18 unit no under 40 statute multif family your zoning bylaw has to you have to allow 20 units per acre have to allow to allow and the when we've had discussion in South Hadley with the state it was that's a minimum threshold for a 40R to qualify project to qualify is 40 is 20 minutes per acre the individual construction project 20 per for building number three it has to be 20 units per AC 40R okay um I thought you could say well you know that's fine it's actually 10 units of housing per acre plus 30,000 square fet of commercial 9 40R the way that's that's not the way we understood it okay and in fact wayfinders went through all kinds of gymnastics on the new new project they're going to do in South Aly at U they're the developer in South Hadley under 40 R 40 R so they could they going do 60 units and they had to work out way to get be sure they had Le a 3 Acre Site not three and a half not they had so they met met the minimum threshold that's and I think the reason for that is our bylaw allows 20 minutes per acre but if you come in at 15 breaker we'll make it very easy if you get approval yeah I I I think that's the public purpose you set out to and um yeah so I think that's the rationale for the minimum 20 but you could do take a hard look at that one that's a lot of units so you could look at but depends on how you that's for the project now you may have in your 40 yard district and the way the way they develop the initial incentive payment is they look at for multif family 20 in per minus the number of units Allowed by right under your resistance zoning so let's say it's all B all commercials zing and does not any residential units then and your 40 yard district is going to be uh 20 acres they calculate the incentive payment based on 20 * 20 okay 400 UNS that doesn't mean you have to build 400 UNS the 20 breaker when the developer comes in with this project or with her project or their project they got project side three acres they're going to build 60 units they're going to build 20 units per acre for the project site I see Oz sitting in the field of poppies what why does that image come to mind so that's that's how 40R works and that and I a wayfinders kept working with the uh partnership that own the property come up with that 3 Acre track so they can meet the 20 units per acre minimum so 40 are obviously is complex and challenging but wayfinders is the agency that already has established relationship in Southampton and really strong leaning in will help you figure out what you want and the market can actually build and and we have four or five different wayfinder examples and other examples of high density mixed use that may not be 40R um and North Village Hill in Northampton is perhaps a poor example of a 40R because the state had its talents in they all kinds of so much cow's Mill District was that a 40b or 40R or something else that's up in um Hamer M I'm not I'm not sure if there was a friending 40b or my guess as a friending 40b it looks like a nice mixed use development with density that I thought would qualify for 40R because it's the um it's testing my sensibilities if your objective is affordable housing and and the community is willing to support a friendly 40b then that's the way to go you're not going to get the financial benefit that 40 R gives you the challenge for most affordable housing developers LIF for the zba not the planning board correct and it still has to go through public hearing process has to go through the regular 40b process all over and when you're looking for that there's no way the community guarantee it's going to be a friendly 40b because you get get in the public hearing process and you start having the 100 200 people show up at the hearing it can get it can change some people's perspectives that thought is going to be friendly real quick 40 r on the other hand is allowed by right all they have to do is meet your design standards that you develop and then they're entitled to approval it's uh different it's and makes it more receptive for developer knowing that yeah I'm going to put this $2 million into the site planning and I'm come out with an approved plan all I got to do is get my tax credits and mon monetize those and then I can start building now that's going 5 years in process anyway but minimum three I would guess so I'm sorry what would be three years away by time they submit their plan and then start breaking ground for it under a 40b 40R under a 40R and most affable housing w't take them three years because not only they have to get approval they then have to typically they get tax credits that usually take two rounds time they're done annually then they had to monetize those to get their funding so plus the infrastructure grants and stuff has to come in because they're building apartments and that building roadways and if they can get grants there's not grants available generally municipalities there are but mous works for oh yeah for municipalities affordable housing but not for the housing itself but is for the infrastructure they go into the town property yeah so but you're going to sell the prop and that's how that you know you're not going to be the developer of the housing private nonprofits going to be the developer of the housing yes that's correct but you know do we have a saleable lot until we have the road that's and that reason you may look at 5 years easy because it's going to take a while to get your sewer out there um we got to get the sewer to hurry up so that it coincides with the yet again delayed Greenway construction but the state has taken such an interest in our Greenway we're deferred but fully funded and funded in a way that we're not competing regionally it's an the E mark from the state level and with that kind of interest and that kind of conundrum if sewer is feasible makes sense it's got to coincide with the construction of the greenway it's not going in afterwards so um it might leverage a very considerable state and federal investment uh with with time as well as construction money yeah and if you do go 40R one things you'll notice is the state law sets 20 units for multif family as a minimum it doesn't have a cap South Harley we put a cap we have different cap for both the two districts that we have and uh I'm here Larry Smith was working with us and said no there is no cap so yeah we want a cap we don't want to have somebody come in say oh we can do 40 unit break we have folks it become very contentious then so 40s got wrapped into the same presentation that I got from Bill y RI R where at from the state to too many consonant that's school funding presentation 40s is small starter homes first buyers yeah yeah and um it has different density requirements single family detached I don't know if there's an attached townhouse option at eight per acre 8 units per acre 8 units per acre and you know I I thought it might be a mix and match MH possibility uh cuz I can see that style being attractive in Southampton sty sewer for it oh absolutely um and last I I know we we looked at that in South Hadley and last I checked they had no this four years ago the state had not had any approved 40s districts yet I don't know that you can afford to build an envelope for each family at the price right that's in the statute great okay um that's my commission report I move that we approve warrant uh item for uh our Mr Harris consultant uh July expense July and August expenses whatever this is J August 1665 do I have a motion Stephen yes second motion made in second all in favor I I can't cut you that check right now I thought going walk away with it he takes V Moe No in fact I had I had a client uh call me uh today he said I got an invoice uh can I send to you uh via vinmo I said noo I can get I said but check um I don't use vinmo in fact I had a uh issue with my bank a few months ago six months ago somebody using venmo set up an account and took 20500 or so out of my checking account no way I never used Veno in my life andow they gave Bank gave it to me on a advanced it on a conditional basis they had to do their investigation and then 90 days later they they emailed me and said and sent me a letter saying we've completed investigation it wasn't authorized they made M they claimed the person made a mistake of the account number yeah right and and they replenish my account with it but yes I have never used Veno and I with that experience I never will I had a landlord that wanted to get paid it no it wasn't public venmo it was Bank of America zel same damn we have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn I'll second all in favor I thank you all this government meeting is brought to you by eastw works and our local cable subscribers