Call the Conservation Commission meeting to order for Monday, December 15, 2025. The town hall conference room three. It's a hybrid meeting both in person and on Zoom. We'll open with attendance starting with Andy,
>> Andy Reen, Chris Pratt, >> Norm Chver, Terry Patria, >> Kevin Sullick. So, we do have a quorum. Do we have anybody online? >> We do not. >> Okay. And you're here for a specific reason, right? So, >> okay. So, we don't have any public
comments tonight. Let's do the minutes. You have them in front of you. I'll do them. I don't have any changes with that tonight.
I look over today pretty good. Dr. You've been so good. I can't find your face. >> Did you say the good on? >> I'll make a motion accepted as presented. >> Second the motion. Okay. Motion by
Chris, seconded by Andy. Roll call vote. Andy re I don't I have a unanimous vote. Next item on the agenda. Agenda is a
continuence of a public hearing NOI number 2920432 for 6 South Lumis Street. And we have a request to the commissioners on behalf of the applicant and property owner Velder Vilvoy R. Levest Associates is
requested to continue the December 15th public hearing for the above reference notice of filing. The town of Southwood Planning Board plans to hire a third party storm water peer review which is still pending. We understand that the conservation commission would prefer to have this
peer review completed before the applicant returns for further discussion. In light of this, we respectfully request the notice of intent be continued to the commissioner's next available public hearing. >> So, we're going to do we need a motion to
>> accept the continuence. >> Okay. >> Move to accept the continuence. >> Made the motion. >> Second. Kevin's a second. Roll call vote. And I >> Chris I norm. >> Unanimous vote.
Next item on the agenda is NOI 112 Sunnyside Road Load 2920432 continued. Proposal for the construct of a single family home with associated site improvements. Portions of the proposed work is within buffer zone of
bordering vegetation. and we'll open up the continuous hearing to the representative of the petitioner. Name and address for the record, please. >> Do you want me to pull the plan?
>> Sure. Hey guys, my name is Cole Besto Associates. Uh representing Mr. Bad for 112 Sunnyside Road. Uh clients uh looking to propose actually let me start with the house.
We're going to propose a single family home uh 112 Sunnyside Road. Uh with with this project, there is a driveway to cross the wetland. I'm sure you guys are familiar with the history of this site. There being an order conditions currently still unresolved for it. Um,
so with this project, they were recommending to reuse the existing stream crossing. Uh, no new alteration to the wetland is being proposed for. So in order to do this, we need to close out the original order conditions. Uh,
as far as we we are aware that the stream crossing has been installed. Uh the wetland replication has been installed and checked. Uh I believe Ryan from our office went out there once in March and then again in August, right? >> Um
and as far as what is inside the buffer zone, the only work being proposed is the driveway. This is this is the back piece of the property and this is kind of your front piece. So coming in off Sunnyside Road, we're proposing, you know, a little bit of
grading is being proposed to, you know, meet the Southwick uh driveway regulations at least 10% here. Uh gravel driveway. Guess they hit the lottery. Want to paint the whole thing? >> Yeah, it's a long way. >> And uh just the So this is the kind of the bulk of the of the of the work in
jurisdictional area right here is the wetland uh crossing. Uh this is Ashley Brookke runs underneath here. This is the BVW that no new alterations be proposed for it. Um I really just kind of open up for any questions.
>> So is that crossing big enough for construction vehicles? >> Yeah, I I think I I drove by them uh I drove up there and it was it was 14 something like that. >> And you spent a lot of time out there
like when they originally put it there. >> Yeah. Was there a uh was there a site visit that was just recently done that was not >> you didn't show >> I wasn't there for that I work >> me too >> yeah and yeah it was during the day
during the week so um Chris didn't go but Andy went myself went Norm went and Dennis went >> pretty heavy duty bridge >> I can remember it being I just wasn't sure how wide it was >> 14t pretty good size I just remember
driving across it, but I had F350 also. I don't remember being scared. >> Yeah. >> Wasn't my truck either, so I wouldn't be scared. >> Um, I guess as far as just the the work being done to it will be uh just kind of surface level, you know, gravel and
making it able for for cars to be able to drive over. >> Um, what about snow plowing? Um, did you guys have any consideration for that >> for as far as like snow removal over the crossing?
>> Yeah, over the crossing, >> you know, kind of handle it. How do you handle most gravel driveways? It's it's tough to plow until the ground freezes. >> Typically, like in my place, I plow laid on the cement. You plow off both
directions because you wouldn't want to plow onto the cement. you're going to hit the cement, >> right? And the blade will catch. So, you would you would >> you like plow in and lift up a blade and then drop it then do the same thing in the other direction.
Don't learn that real quick. >> Yeah, >> I I do I do the same method at my house. I gravel driveway. I do the same. And it actually helps when you put it at the whole thing, the whole blade at an angle so you don't dig down as much. >> Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. the combination. You gota
you got to play with it and figure it out. >> Yeah. >> Any other questions, concerns? >> This one um currently has two notice of intents in front of this one. Um and they are number one and
number two and under new business. So, they're looking for a certificate of compliance and vote to release $10,000 uh bond. And this is 42920366. And this was project never started. U
whoever had was the applicant at this point I think had the same idea. >> Was it banish? I mean >> that was the original squad. >> Yep. And then previous to that was um uh
2920290 for 76 Sunnyside Road. This was the subdivision. Um and within the subdivision is the crossing and the wetland replication. Um so they would be asking for a partial
certificate of compliance for this um notice or or this certificate. What am I trying to say? A partial certificate of compliance for this project. Um and I'm not sure if you want to vote on
doing that before voting on the new notice of intent. >> I think housekeeping lines it makes the most sense. >> Okay. So, let's take up the request of certificate of compliance to vote to
release the $10,000 bond for NOI 2920366 112 Sunny Side Road. >> And everything looked great out there as well on your site visit. >> Yes. >> Yeah. There was no erosion or anything and the driveway is very stable already. Dennis talked to you guys at all about
the um replication area. Did you look at that at all or No, >> didn't really. >> That's not a big one. >> No, >> six square meters. >> It's that big. >> Very small. Yeah. Um, the only thing
that I had concerns about was that the previous delineation versus the new delineation, it didn't look like the the proposed wetland replication actually took, but um, through my conversations with Ryan, he had said that the first
delineation was a bit conservative and so he actually had to move the delineation or the wetland replication over a bit more in order for it to actually like connect to the bordering vegetated wetland and so that's why the two are actually a bit different.
>> Okay. >> I'll make a motion granted certificate of compliance for the release of the $10,000 bond and NOI 2920366 at 112 Sunnyside Road. Questions made a
motion. Do we have a second? >> I'll second. >> Factory made a second. Any further discussion of debate hearing? None. Roll call vote. Andy I >> Chris I. >> Norm I >> Terry I. >> Kevin I unanimous vote.
>> Now request for partial cert certificate of compliance 76 Sunside road. >> So for 76 Sunnyside Road. There is one thing I do want to add was the deed restriction for all lots on the property. There was a deed restriction
put on all lots except for one which now currently has the house. So there is that caveat as well. Just wanted to let you guys know that um before making the vote. >> Okay. So this is for 29209012
Sunnyside Road aka partials east. >> This is for a partial. >> So it's just to release that 112 from their original. No one above did have um the date restriction recorded. >> Okay. I'll make the motion to give a
partial security compliance for the 112 NOI 292090. Here we have a motion from Chris to approve the partial certificate of compliance. Do we have a second? >> I'll second. Kevin's made the second. Any further discussion or debate? We'll
call vote. Andy Im. >> Unanimous vote. Back to the public hearing um for Sunny 2012 Sunside Road 2920434. I guess we should start by
closing the public hearing. Correct. >> Yeah. >> Make a motion to close the hearing. >> Okay. We have a second. >> I'll second that. >> Okay. >> Roll call vote. Andy I >> Chris I norm.
>> Unanimous vote to close the public hearing. And now on the actual NOI 2920434. We have a motion. I get I'll make a motion to approve the project um with our standard boiler plate plate
um order conditions 10,000. Are we going to do a bond on this $10,000 bond? >> Okay, I'll second that motion. Okay. So Kevin made the original motion first made the second. Any further discussion
to debate? Bill Gwolf >> Andy I have an >> I unanimous vote. >> Thank you very much. >> Yes. Okay. >> Sometimes the TV sometimes.
>> Thank you for your time. Thanks. >> That was nice. >> You as well. >> Okay. Now, we'll go back to new business. Support for open space committee including secretarial support and information. No oversight on the definition of the committee.
>> Okay. So, Dennis and I did go to the open space committee meeting. The last one I had, um, it was only in person. There were five of us there and three three members Dennis and I and we had some discussion around
certain things and you know we feel they need a secretary um to run this committee or to help run this committee. We need somebody that knows the nuances of uh posting meetings,
um post, you know, agendas and all that stuff. It's a lot for volunteers who are on a committee to do all the leg work as well. It's enough for secretaries in the first place. Then to put that on the people who are trying to run a committee, it's a lot bigger of a
burden. I don't want to see these guys get burnt out since there only three of them in the first place. you know, right now we have one person who has taken that role on as trying to do the secretarial work. Um, I'd hate to see that fall apart,
but I'd like for us as conservation to maybe send a letter to or vote on sending a letter to um, select board requesting a, you know, part-time
person for their uh, use or secretary. >> Have they been received as a town committee or subcommittee? >> Well, see, that's the thing, too. We're not really sure. I thought they were, but they said that um they were told that they're only an ad hoc committee. >> Huh. >> Which is not also what I thought they
were going to be. >> Um >> but they could still qualify for a secretary, >> right? >> Even ad hoc committees. >> But I'd also like to advocate that they also become a full-time >> that too >> board. >> Yeah, that's what I have an ad hoc board. >> So >> or a subcommittee.
Um, >> do we include that in our request or we have >> I think that that might go in that same letter that we would submit to the select board requesting those two things. >> Um,
you know, clarifying their position as far as what kind of a board they are. I think that would make sense because technically they actually do manage a piece of property in Southwick
over by Goose Pond. They are written as the manager, coowner, owner. >> And I would like to see them become the entity that does oversee the open space areas in town as an ongoing process, not just as okay, we need an open space plan. Let's put together some people who
don't know what an open space plan is and we'll go from there. Right now we have three people who've never sat on the open space committee and they're trying to put together an open space plan which is cumbersome. It's there's a lot of work to it. So they're starting from ground zero, you
know, with a year to go. You know, they can file for an extension, but >> can we? >> You can. It's been it's been done. >> Should we file for it now? I'm being serious. >> Well, it probably wouldn't hurt. Um
so the um thing is I like elected this to be an ongoing committee you know something that would you know be able to be uh looked at as a town entity >> right what was it in the past was it
considered a subcommittee of concom >> so there' be a precedent there >> right >> um I think I was on the first one Jim Miles put us together was Joanie from conservation, myself, then we had some
other people that joined as well. Um, no, Dennis certainly helped us out a lot. >> Uh, but we put together the first open space plan. We went around looked at all the maps, wrote down all the different parcels that were open space, farm, all, you know, identified all those things.
It's on my floppy disc at home somewhere. That's >> was a long time ago. Um >> that's a good thing to do and have >> right but uh was it was a lot of work. We yeah you know we did have some uh people do surveys through Westfield State like a
survey monkey kind of thing they sent around town and we try to get some input from the residents. Uh but it's it's a lot of work. You know there's we do have like a template. We do have an open space plan
that right now is valid. >> And as you're actually giving them gut use right now, aren't you? >> Well, it's been a long I mean it was 20 something years ago when I was on it. Dennis has been on it. He was the chair of the last open space committee. You be way more valuable than myself. >> Yeah. Between you and Dennis, that's a
good couple of mentors to have. >> Yeah. >> I think that the select board had something on their agenda of appointing a concom member to the open space tonight. Did somebody apply for that? >> Did anybody That's a bit
>> Anybody that? >> Um I don't know if they just discussed >> Yeah. >> that thought or if they volunteered somebody. I I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean, you were at the meeting when we advocated for the open space committee. Yeah.
>> You know, Mr. Moin did say that he would >> uh not want conservation running the open space committee. He wanted the select board to be in charge of the open space committee. >> Okay. >> For the for the appointing >> for the appointing. So I don't know how that's going to be
you know so far we have only three committee members. I'm not sure how it's going to advertise as well. >> Y >> um so we need more members not just right >> conservation input. Are they still doing their own recruitment and writing their
own policies and whatnot like we talked about or >> not really sure. I mean I I put together an advertisement for it and >> you know then Diane took it from there and put it out on Facebook. I know that happens. Um
>> right. >> It sounds like the involved in it and the selection process. That's fine. you know, let them >> Well, they should be involved with the selection process as they are with all the boards. >> Absolutely. Let them get vetted through the SB and >> right
>> that's that's fine. >> A quick and easy poster on all the kiosks. If you love this property, help manage. >> I like that idea. Yeah. >> You know, >> would you like to get involved? >> Right. >> But as far as like managing the properties, there's a big thing that happened at North Pond. Everybody's all
up in arms about who's running this place, you know. >> Yeah. Well, that'll be the open face committee. That wasn't >> It would be we the people, right? >> Right. >> We're running it. >> What do we need to do, Chris? >> Well, I think >> draft >> I think we will take a vote to to draft
a letter. >> Okay. >> Um to the select board requesting for, you know, the open space committee to be the true board and see what we have to do to make that happen. >> And if it's denied through them, I think we can uh get a petition. get some
names, see if we can get it pass at meeting. >> The select board can call it anything they want. It doesn't have to be a subcommittee. It can be an official committee. >> I would like it to be the open space committee. >> You know, um that way they answer right to the SB, >> right? >> I'm all for the letter and stuff, too.
Do you think what's the select board's um stance on it? Are they >> Well, I was I've spoken with Diane. She's amendable to that. >> So, would this be No, Dennis has as well. Sorry. >> Yeah, sure. >> Will this be the same um amount of
people? So, I believe Diane when they did the vote at the select board meeting, they voted for five members or did you want to have a different type of makeup and maybe something like the CPC like somebody from Park and Wreck or
somebody from Con. Um, I'm not sure complicates things. It makes it harder to get people. It >> does. >> But it doesn't, you know, >> doesn't mean that somebody has to be on it. There'd be a spot available like for a I'd love to see somebody from
>> someone from a too >> um any committee that has anything to do with open space. I'd love to have their participation if they wanted to as long as they're out for doing committee responsibilities, you
know. Mhm. >> Okay. So, we have a Is there going to be a second part of this motion other than making a lady? >> Just right now a letter. >> Okay. >> Drafting a letter. >> But you're also going to add secretarial support. >> Secretarial support and making it a full
committee. >> Okay. >> Um >> because it's needed for more than just the open space plan. then land management needs to happen in perpetuity. It's not just something that happens when there's a problem. >> So on the secretarial situation,
which I'll support the but I don't believe there's much hope for passing. >> Yeah, I >> it's a request I count nine boards that have a secretary and 15 that do not. >> Well, it can be shared. It can be shared a shared position. It doesn't have to be
>> Well, I know that. Yeah, >> but it's a changing of the guard. Fewer committees have secretaries out than they used to. >> Really interesting. And just just for you know for me Diane
Gil that takes our minutes. >> That's nice. >> That's >> Yeah, I know. >> I handle all the administration stuff. >> Yeah, >> I know. Right now cultural council, we don't have one. Sue's been doing the minutes and I've been posting the
agendas for them and doing well the zoom the zoom stuff >> let alone no secretary right >> you know the economic development committee doesn't have one council on Asian doesn't have one
historical commission doesn't have one >> parks and rec water commission doesn't have one so >> well we'll put in a request >> okay last We can do I mean we do this right >> all I can do is advocate and support.
>> Yeah it's >> okay. So we have a motion from Chris for those two items. Do they need to be repeated? Letter to the select board. >> Two items. >> The two items. Yes. Um
are is this the secretary and the ongoing committee? Correct. be an official town committee >> as opposed to an ad hoc. >> Correct. So, do we have a second to Chris's motion? >> I'll second. >> Kevin's made the motion. Any further
discussion or debate? Roll call vote. >> Andy I. >> Chris I. >> Norm I. >> Jerry I. >> Kevin I. >> Unanimous vote. Thank you guys. >> Um, with that we do have our budget that we are going to be
submitting. I'm not sure if that should be something to think about as secretary for open space under our budget seeing how >> we can see if we can utilize that >> through there.
>> Okay. Um I'm going to have the budget ready for you guys to review for the next meeting. Fingers crossed. And I know Nicole wants to have a meeting before we submit stuff as well. Um, >> so if they if we this is I just don't
know how like the logistics of this work. If we're asking for them to be their own committee, we could still give them money out of our budget even though we'd be essentially separate committees had that fall. So how would that work? >> I don't know how it'll work right now. >> You check out how that would work.
>> Yeah, because right now there are subcommittees. So I believe for budgeting as it stands right now we would be requesting money for them. I think that's how that works. But if they do become their own
>> town entity, um then they would be responsible for their budget. Like the LMC has their own >> they might not get a budget. >> Correct. Yeah. >> You know, they might get like a draft pickup budget or something like that, >> but like having certain committees like that like an open space commaly
for more grants and more funding and stuff also by having certain >> when you have an open space plan you do. Yes. >> I don't know about that. So, but that's but all that >> doesn't matter if you have the actual >> committee. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying is by having that committee is how you have the open space plan which
so it's like yeah it costs a little bit of money out of the budget but overall the benefits are >> right and that's why we put the first open space committee together. We got the whole thing done. We got our open space plan done. That's how we got money from it. At the time it was uh
the state um was BO DCR but it was different different name back then. Anyway, that's how we got our grant through them. I I sat down with people from Winding Riverland that we wrote the grant and got, you know, the conservation restriction and and that
that applied for the grant. We're >> able to get money to do Soonowski. Mark Indian back in the day. >> Yeah. The self-help. >> Yep. Self-help grant >> grant. And you guys did Lupinsky on the same year with I think it's self-help grant as well.
>> Yeah. >> Now when the town like open space committees, would they be looking for just properties that the town would essentially like have like this be town owned then? Right. Like the open space >> the ones that we already own right now to manage. Correct.
>> Saying like future ones, I guess is what I'm saying. Like that would be their more interest. This is town. >> I don't mean that they >> I'm not saying that they need to go out and find more open space. >> Manage the ones that we already have. >> Exactly. And if if people want to do
APRs and things like that, then yes, that would be >> Well, but the open space could help with the APR. That's I guess what I was one of the questions I was asking like >> Yeah. They wouldn't be actively going out seeking >> spots, you know. >> Yeah. They might give some high priority areas like you know >> Yeah.
>> like kind of like what we do. We want to protect water resources. So we want to protect the land around the water. >> Yeah. >> You know those kinds of things. >> Maybe in that letter we could ask for some kind of definition what the select board deems the current >> right
>> open space committee to be. >> But as well I mean it's open space and recreation. So there's also that public use part that we want to keep intact. It's not just a preserve or a wildlife and >> habitat. It's >> But we, you know, get some sort of definition to know where they fall.
>> Right. Well, going back to our action item for the master plan to create the open space committee and we developed a list of activities. >> We're working on it. Nor >> we developed a list of activities for them to take on.
>> Right. that went to the supporting parties asking the supporting parties if they agree with that concept. Okay. And one of the supporting parties is a select board. >> Okay. >> And in the in that email I said that we
would like a confirmation by the end of the year. Yay or nay >> and if they need more time let let me know. >> Okay. So that's in the works to happen anyway. >> Excellent. That's a good thing.
>> Yeah. >> Maybe that could be pointed out as part of the original plan here. Try to helping folks out so they can help everybody else. Okay. Okay. Anything else on open space before
we move on? Okay, next item is application for variance section 6.2 annual removal of docks 410 Mountain Road West Sheffield. This is an annual request that we have for them that we've always approved in
the past. >> Same set of circumstances. >> Yep. >> Move to accept it. >> Second to accept from Jerry. The letter Chris. >> Did we do the letter? Did we vote on the letter? >> Oh, I don't think you guys actually
voted on the letter. >> Didn't we write the letter? >> I second it. >> Yeah, I don't know that we actually voted on it. >> Oh, >> Renee, did they do you know if they voted on it? >> Which one? Um the letter to the select board. >> Yes, we did. I seconded it and then we
voted. That's your name. The young brain remembers. Thanks for being here. You must drink lot of water for >> that was 30 seconds, >> right?
>> Okay. So, now back to the uh the variance for the annual removal of docs. Jerry made the motion. Who made the second? >> I did. >> Chris made the second. >> Any discussion or debate? >> Roll call vote. >> Andy I. >> Chris I.
>> Nor Ryan here. Kevin unanimous for >> No, can you please sign um your your section and please don't get offended. They're finding these old forms somewhere. The new form is on the website.
>> I do not take offense at all. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Next item number five. Review and approve the 2026 local permitting program mailing cover letters. to be signed by the conservation commission,
harbor master and lake management committee. I just wanted to say that we LMC did look at the letter and also the application Massachusetts and Connecticut and the I
asking that you should take something off of the Massachusetts and Connecticut ones and fine print says that local location stickers must be on lifts and buoys and moorings. There's not space on those.
So it really only want it on the dock. >> Makes sense. >> And that's on the applications. >> On the I think it's lower left corner. >> Okay. on the letter >> the old base statement of all vessels
moings and structures on conga must be permitted you want to add by LPP or chapter 91 license so you're very specific that it you know she can prog and He peritted it. Who said you can have that do? No. I'm said I can have that. >> Mhm.
>> No, these two people must be permitted by one of these two people. >> Um, so >> the bold place statement that all vessels permitted. >> Did you read what is above it? >> I did. But then you're making this bold statement be very clear must be
permitted by this or that. >> It's it's redundant, but you're making a bold statement. you. So, if you do not wish to submit a local permitting program application, you have the option of applying for a permit through Mass D to acquire chapter 91 license. Oh, I think it's just restate that all
everything needs to be permitted either way, >> right? But you didn't, right? And I'm just saying, do you want to add by LPP or chapter 91 in parenthesis again? Well, >> oh, just as part of the sentence, it's it's redundant. It's excessive, but it's just a bold statement. It's very clear.
you got to do this or that. Those are your options. We already set it up here, >> but now you're making the bold statement. Boom. You can add either it's redundant, >> but you're making that bold statement. Make it clear,
>> right? Do you guys agree? We can change that. >> I have no problem with that. You could add wording like all vessels moringans instructions structures on lake congam whether done by LPP or chapter 91 must be committed >> because that sentence kind of includes
both >> by either of those >> I don't know how wordy you want to get >> it's not I mean it's not going to make anything >> it it kind of implies it with what it has but >> Oh it does like Andy said it's redundant but this puts it all together in one statement. >> Yeah.
So, do you have that, Sabrina? >> Yes. >> One thing though, um, vessels don't get permitted through chapter 91. >> That's true. That is also true. Well,
then you would do the other one. You got to do this or that. Since you can't do this, you do that. >> You like, so if you have a chapter 91 like Jerry, you don't do the dock per annual permitting through local permitting program. What you do >> through the boat? >> The boat. >> Yep.
>> Right. But it has to be through one or the other. And since you can't do the other, you have to do this, >> right? >> We need a table. >> No, I mean, right. If you try to do the boat through this process, you won't be able to. >> I get it because we're involved in it,
but someone reading this might say, >> "Right, you have to do one or the other." Pick one. >> Well, I used to have a question about um lifts. And we don't charge for lifts, right? I mean, right. >> But they'd still have to be >> permitted. >> Permitted.
>> They get stickers. Yes. >> Why are they charging for lifts? >> I don't know. I don't >> take up space on the lake. >> I don't know. I don't know what is considered >> vertical space off the dock. >> I don't know what's considered. >> Well, is it part of the dock or is it
>> No, it's attached to the dock and it goes up, >> but it's it's motorized. It's basically the same space as the boat. >> Just lifts the boat in the air. So, some have them like off to the side. You got a dock and then you got like a a
scaffolding a separate scaffold. >> Okay. Okay. And then the boat goes in there and then that lifts it. >> There's But then why does it need to be permitted? >> So Chris is technically >> if it's taking up the same space as the boat, why does it need to be permitted? >> Chris is technically right. It does take
up space on the lake >> or or like >> if somebody's saying it's technically part of your dock. Well, then then it should be part of your dock. >> Yeah. Then there's that. See like how wide >> but they're not. >> I I'm not I'm not saying it's a it's a
dock spot like >> Yeah. But some people just have a lift in the water like for jet skis and things like that. >> And no dock. >> No dock. >> Luckily, no one really came up to us with that question. I think it's just because they don't have to pay for
>> that. I'm not saying that they have to or should or I'm not putting any any motion forward. There's a few curious >> probably dozen of them on the lakes. I've seen them. >> Yeah, >> there's a couple on South Pond. >> I'm not saying that there's anything
wrong with it. Just I just curious. >> Okay. >> I I don't know. >> Maybe we could get the LMC's input on that. See what they think. >> Well, we're running out of time. We want to send them out earlier this year. Right. >> Right. >> That's the goal. >> Okay. >> That's the goal. >> Like I said, how does it change
anything? >> Okay. So, basically, what's uh what's new and improved on these cover letters from last year? >> Um we actually bumped up the deadline by a month. So, it was May 15th. We have
bumped it to April 15th. And that's to reflect the actual outline that um the local permitting outline is April 15th. And I think that would also help us with processing and getting stickers out in time for the season.
>> That's that's a good time to do it. >> And I think the majority of people on the lake know whether or not they're going to be applying for this. So it's not I don't think it it's a a huge issue, right? um submitting it by April 15th
and then we can also start with like um monitoring to see if people are in compliance a lot earlier in the year, not dragging on August, September like should we find them, should we not find them? It's the end of the year. >> Yes. >> So that was our thinking behind April
15th. >> That's a good idea. >> And then Ellen also replaced my email with her email. Um, and I think she tweaked things slightly, but it's essentially the same.
>> I don't understand the location of the stickers. Left, port, side, rear, and then aft, starboard, stern. It doesn't Something's not right there. Aft is rear, stern is rear, starboard is right. So, you got left,
rear, and right rear. I don't understand it. Is it is one supposed to be on the left and right rear >> or is one supposed to be on the right front, one on the left rear? >> So maybe for the same thing,
>> right? It's on the pontoon in the front. >> Where do you put your stickers? >> I know, right? >> Put it on for me. So we'll look into that to make sure we're anxiety. >> Yeah. >> Well, so >> you got four four and app which is front
and back. You got bow and stern which is front and back and starboard is right side. So you're saying back, right, back in parenthesis and you're saying left, back, not in parenthesis.
>> So there should be it should be port side, rear. So the left, port side, rear, and then it should be stern of the vessel. >> Stern stern is the rear. >> Yeah.
>> But do you want it on like the back of the boat? >> Yeah, we want the back. Um, transom is the >> probably so you can see it from the lake. >> The majority of people put the nose facing the shore. So the rear of the boat would be facing the water and um
that's where >> the boat is the side. The right transom is the back. >> Transom is what I think they want to go with >> is the back. >> So you can see from the back as you go by >> the point is the bow and the flat part in the rear is the transom. >> Yeah. >> So not starboard stern. You tell me the
right side that's over here. >> But you want it here on the back. >> You want on the back, >> right? So you want it on the back. >> So we have Well, we have left side rear of the vessel and I think we're trying to get our
marine vocabulary correct. And um we failed. >> Depending on what it depends on what side of the dock you put your boat to. If you put it on one side and it's scooched up to the dock, you won't see it on the left side. >> If it's on the side of the boat, >> it's on the trans definitely not on the
transom. I would say it's visible from the lake that way. >> How do you spell that? >> I s on the transom of >> port side. Transit. You want to move on the left side >> back of the boat. You're saying? >> Yeah.
>> If that would be the left. Now I have to move all my stickers. >> Yeah, me too. >> Then you got on the >> side over there. So >> is that where they were before on the >> Let's get it first on the >> Yeah. >> On the front >> with with
>> the other side from the registration. >> Yeah. >> On the other side. >> As long as it's on the transom. I don't think it matters if it's left or right. >> Right. >> I don't know why I'm just hearing this word now. >> Just get it on there. >> Ransom. >> It's that flat part where the motor hangs. That's, you know,
>> if it's an outboard motor, but what if it's an inboard motor? >> So, you still have the back of the boat. Still back. >> You still have a transom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That flat back where the prop comes out. >> Okay. >> The transom >> there. All right. That holds.
>> That's just for the sticker. That's just for the LP sticker. >> That's it. That's why >> the, you know, the registration. >> That's why makes that part of the vote. >> Yeah. The registration is quite often on two >> either side, you Right. >> Mhm. >> All right. Tend to put everything kind
of next to each other, but that can change. Anything else on the LPP letter? >> So, with those edits, um, can we just ask once we fix them up,
can we just ask Norm to go ahead and sign and and then Dick and >> people get one sticker or two? >> One. Okay. So vessels. >> Well, it depends on how on your application. You can apply for >> multiple. >> Yeah.
>> What do you mean? >> Oh, you're >> how many boats or how many vessels? >> If you have two boats, you can get tested. One sticker per boat, >> right? >> One sticker permit number. >> It's got a number on it. Traceable
with a color code. No. That's what part of my confusion because it almost it appeared to me like you wanted two different locations because the word stickers is plural. >> You had two stickers and were trying for two locations. That's why I was asking that you look for the front and the back. The way I was reading is you got
two stickers and then you were trying for two different locations. >> No, when she's saying when she's saying stickers, she's referring to all of the >> Right. Right. Of all the stickers we send out, stick them on the back of the boat. >> Right. I really left or right.
>> Just stick it on the back. >> Stick it on the back. >> Where are we going to see it? >> I can't remember the color that we're getting this year. >> Doesn't that usually match the Is that yellow the RMV one that we get? >> Sometimes it does. >> We're in the yellow rotation. >> Anyway,
>> all right. So, Sabrina's asked if she makes the changes, can I sign a letter without bringing it back to conservation? You okay with that? >> Yeah. Yes, it looks good to you. Sure. Do I have to be redundant on the first part? >> No. Yeah. >> Okay. I don't want to change that.
>> Okay. >> And that's pretty much the same on both Connecticut and Mass. Yeah. >> Essentially the same. Um the Connecticut one mentions that the town of Southic has an agreement with Sfield in that um they individually do not need to pay,
but they still have to submit the applications. It's their responsibility. >> Right. And I think it also mentions that um because Sfield pays for the permits or covers it um that does not mean that
they are exempt from noncriminal disposition with non-compliance. >> So Norma, I was also curious about that. How does the town of Sheffield know how many docs besides your survey? Did do the people who put docks in also let
them know they're putting a dock in? No, >> I know you do all the leg work on that. >> Yes, but it's not for Norm. Nobody would know, >> right? I do send u an inventory to the first selectman once a year on how many
docks, boats, lifts, boys that we counted. >> So he can plus the the gold standard when I took pictures of everyone. >> So we can see the changes, >> right? and and so we can justify the the
paying of the fee that way, >> right? >> Okay. >> Okay. Just wondering if there's some way of, you know, record keeping like we do, you know, that they send paperwork in >> to the town >> to their town as well.
>> You assume someone over there would be keeping track of it, >> right? you besides us telling them >> leave their contact >> would you just give them a copy of the list of all the connected docs >> or we send a copy of the application to them or I don't know
>> someone who's handling the the yearly fee >> I think that I think that's just like their treasur >> well >> again that's complicating things we can move on >> I mean I could offer when I send out the inventory I could put on there here's
the number of forms, applications that were submitted, >> right? >> And this is how many should have been. >> I like that. >> You can do that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Hopefully there's not a discrepancy. It'll be nice. >> Okay. >> Right.
>> All right. Next one. We have a letter to read here. Land trust to the south conservation commission. I have completed my annual monitoring of the rising corner conservation restriction held by Kestrel Land Trust for 2025. I
observed no items of concern and everything appeared to be consistent with the terms of the conservation restriction. I greatly appreciate your ongoing stewardship efforts. Please do not hesitate to contact me if any issues arise or you have any questions about
the conservation restrictions. It's always a good idea to reach out to us early in the process and we at Kestrel are here to help. Sign was stewardship manager. >> Yay.
>> Everything good? >> No ATV issues. >> Yeah, right. >> Hard to ride an ATV down there rising. >> Yeah. >> First thing is a swamp. laws. Yeah. >> Yeah. There. But there was somebody going across the bridge a couple years
ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wasn't me. >> Okay. >> Sure. >> All right. So, we will accept that communication. >> Nice. >> Okay. Item seven, discussion of 159
Brookshire. If you remember correctly, we had asked to see the plans. >> Uh we have the plans have been delivered. Should you have copies of them? >> Yes, I sent it in the email last Monday. >> Yeah, listen fast Monday with like 27
attachments. >> Yes, exactly. It was Yes, because I I can't I can't send them all in one big email. So, I sent them all. >> Does anybody need some of the plans to be put up so that we can see? >> That'd be great.
As for meeting purposes, too. What do you want to see? >> I don't think we should need to see the letters that were attached to the actual specific plans. >> Okay.
decision signed plans cover sheet. That might be that's a H. Can you see it? Oh no, this is just the front. >> Let me stop sharing so the world didn't see my files.
Um, it might be the spoon. Yeah, it says 20 pages. Exit out of that. Exit that. And then we'll show again. So this is it's a 20 page bundle.
I think this is where it starts. >> Yeah. >> Do you want me to zoom in more? >> Now, one of the things that lake management is concerned about is it appears, and I don't really see it here,
but it appears that they're moving the location of the of the stream that's sometimes there. >> Well, I think they already did that. I don't think that was done a long long time ago. >> Oh, okay.
>> That happened like was clearing the land. Oh, >> okay. >> That's why there was a seasoned assist put on a project back then. I think by the time anybody noticed that that it happens, a lot of the property
out there just turned into a sand pit. >> Yeah. >> And as far as wetland goes, not really viable anymore. So the um delineation for that I think is pushed
way back from where that weird is. >> Like the big hill where the big hill starts back in that area. Do you want me to scroll down? >> That's when we went out for a site visit. Yeah, if you want to. >> I can scroll down or I can go >> site visit with D.
That's probably 10 years ago maybe. >> So, this is the the front elevation center line crosssection. So, this is still the weird. Oh, here's more. Let me see if I can blow it up a bit.
>> Oh, sorry. >> Very top one is rip wrap and then a big box slow down more of it. Below that is more rip. That's kind of hard to tell where that is on the property though. I think you
should go up. The further down you go, the more detail there's going to be. The more product photo is going to be high apart from the plant. >> You want me to Yeah. >> Scroll down a little. I can't find something else. >> Oh, that's the bottom of the basin. Pretty flat.
because most of that just infiltrates now. >> Yes. >> In the winter when the ground freezes, it will build and create ice, but then it'll start to infiltrate and that ice will collapse. >> I do see that right here it says flow.
So maybe that's that swale. Want me to keep going down? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is there a broader picture of where that is on the property? >> I honestly I don't think there is. But we can check Ariel's to see if we
can get I'll just check an Ariel. >> I got to stop sharing because >> Yeah, >> I can't see. Oh. All right. So, this is highlighted in yellow is 159. This photo, this aerial photo is
in 2023. I think that's the latest and greatest we have. >> So, we can see the channel right here. >> Right. And I think that's to where the end of that our jurisdiction >> right here. >> Yeah, I believe there or the next one down where it turns.
I think it might be that one where the Yeah, where the road goes across there. is something here. >> I believe so. >> Because then I know John had mentioned that it gets to a point where and he he agrees with you Chris that it just dissipates and infiltrates into the
sandy soils, >> right? >> Um >> that used to be all wooded and it didn't it was a stream with banks and what he's created there that is his creation. I believe that that ditch
>> Mhm. that now is jurisdictional. >> This >> that >> okay >> because I don't think that was a natural stream that was there. I believe he's created that. I'm not, you know, don't quote me on that, but >> it's kind of what Dick Brown's brother said that he cleared it, moved everything around, and took away all the
soil. >> Yeah. >> So, he couldn't see where it used to be, >> right? >> This the water comes from here's my theory. >> Oh, the water. Yeah, the water comes from the pond over at um the golf course
and it comes down through here. >> I think in a way it's better for water quality for it to infiltrate right there rather than to I think Dick mentioned wanting to restore stream to go all the way essentially flowing into the lake. I
think it's better for water quality to let it infiltrate where it is right there through the sandy soils. I >> agree. But Dick keeps saying that he believes they're moving the >> Oops. >> the infiltration further north. >> North like up in here.
>> Yeah. >> Why would >> That doesn't even make sense. >> The basin is down below all the lower >> areas. How How does Dick know that they're moving it? Is it just because he can see it from his house
or did he see a plan? >> If you now go back to the second picture, not not the overhead, back to the plans. >> Oh. Uh >> I think you'll find the structure is
appears to be further north. >> I'm saying though, you can't really tell by looking at the plan where that structure is. go up to like page two or three. >> Okay. >> It's like the whole property >> there. You'll see it there. >> Oh, can we see it here?
>> There's way back to the west settlement for bank. >> All right. I'm just trying to make it bigger. >> Oops. What am I doing? >> Because right now, isn't it way down? >> I don't
own corner of the property. >> So, it is down there. be the same area. So, it's just off that corner. >> Yeah, it doesn't look like it's It looks like it's >> It could be the same area.
Looking at the boundary lines of the other houses, I believe that's where it is. >> So, according to the plans, we believe it not being moved further north. >> It looks pretty much like it's where it is. >> We thought it where we thought it would be.
>> Yeah. You can see it is right down low. at the lowest point, which makes sense. Okay. >> I'd say that's right where it is now. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> So, are they digging a deeper pit? It
looks like so that will infiltrate more or >> I can find the side view of the infiltration basin. >> Looks like there's a deeper hole. >> 12 ft.
12 ft wide. >> 12 feet wide. two four feet elevation 4T >> which is groundwater level >> I believe right on another part of the I think it said 4T was where the ground
water was >> does that ever become a pond >> like I said in the winter it does when you get flow when you have a rainstorm in the winter it'll flow down there and will it because it won't infiltrate into the frozen ground >> and it will pond up but then we'll
eventually settle in and the ice that's formed on top will collapse. So, >> so that's the we elevation that we're looking at there, though. That's not the bottom of the infiltration, >> right? It's not. Okay, hold on. >> We here's Well,
see, was there a side view of the infiltration? >> Base and so the weir is the same height as the the bottom of the base. And that's weird. 230. They were both at 2. Oh, that's weird. That's still the weir. Ah,
>> infiltration. Um, >> the elevation at the bottom's 230. >> Yes. >> You would think that the we would be higher so that it would hold a little bit of water and infiltrate before it went out the >> You understand what I'm saying?
>> Mhm. >> Oh, the walls of the we are higher. Yeah, but the bottom is at 230, which is the same >> when you go up and over. >> Yeah, but it's like any base in your wheel is always up a little spread out more >> totally wide, right?
>> 44 long, I believe. >> It's looking west. >> That's that's how long it is. I think it's 12t wide as well. Well, so that's a big area >> that wanted wanted to settle into
>> before. Have you seen what it looks like, Chris, like over the years? This is a recent development. >> It's uh I mean, it's been the same for a while now. >> Keeps changing, right? >> Well, I mean, it had. Yes. >> Yeah. I mean, you can go back and look
at pictures, a little views, and see that it was forested, then the trees started moving. >> Yeah. Then the the dirt started leaving and more trees left and then dirt. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But he does have big piles of dirt along
the backs of the neighbor's houses. I think you stockpiled there as well. Now there were some DPW comments as well in this that mentioned uh the rip wrap size is too small. I think it's 6 to 8 in
and I know that was concern of Dicks as well and he thinks the rip wrap should be encaged. >> Yeah. I'm not sure how strong the flow gets to be there. I've never really seen it running. >> Can you go back up to where the weir is
and the detail for the weir? >> Um, this is weird elevation. >> Keep going. >> This is the infiltration basin. Yeah, that's 44 ft. >> What's the What's the bottom of it right there? What's the bottom? >> 230.
>> No, bottom elevation 230 230. What are you looking? >> Well, no. It's saying infiltration basin bottom elevation 230. Right there with the in the text. >> That was 230. >> Yes. >> This one's 230. >> That's a set of 4, right?
>> Right. >> What's the uh But wasn't there a detail for the weir itself? The rip wrap weir? >> Yeah, I think so. So this is looking
north. I don't really understand that. Is it the south part? >> Right. Right there. Yes. >> Rip wrap 6 in. >> Oh, invert elevation 231. So they're saying the top of the rip wrap. So, it's
really only meant to hold maybe like a a foot of water or slow slow it down a foot. See rip wrap thickness invert elevation the top of >> at 231. >> They might be planning on some overflow
in the winter. >> Overflow scenario instead of a blowout. Right. >> Which is better. >> Yeah. >> Is there anything with the settle before it gets to that point? >> So, is the concern the location of this
or how deep it is? How much water it will retain? Is it It's not like a retaining bond. It's only going to hold no water because it's only that rip wrap's only a foot higher than the bottom of the pond. Never really to hold anything.
>> But Kevin said it's going to hold one foot, but it's a large area that will hold that foot in. And I think >> it just settles down. >> It's going to infiltrate. But even that rip wrap will probably allow some water to go through it. So I don't think it's going to build up a lot behind there.
>> What's the concern or >> um >> the location? >> I don't know. Is there >> No, there is a concern. I had the email last we >> and then an engineer. >> I'm trying to >> just we just know what it is. >> I just not why it is.
>> Well, I know the concern there was for the other thing >> was a blowout. >> A lot of sedimentation going into the lake, >> right? >> I remember I got to unlike that. >> Okay. Yeah, sure. >> 24. Wouldn't >> that go across Birch Island?
>> Yeah, we could. You better not allow any gazebo. >> Sorry, I'm trying to find the email. So, are these people wait awaiting us to say yes, we like this plan? >> We're involved. >> No, it's um LMC is
basically saying that Hong Kong needs to be involved because it's within our jurisdiction. >> That's what they're saying. But >> D told us years ago that it's not in jurisexual.
>> You know, they keep saying it's an intermittent stream should be in our jurisdiction, but D said no. >> Right. And also, well, I spoke to Mark. >> So, so >> I spoke to Mark earlier like maybe it's September and he's like
from Ariel's. He's like, it doesn't look like this is jurisdictional. Um unless you have VVW attached to the stream then it's not >> so just so why are we even still getting involved with them just because somebody >> emails keep coming. So I
>> it's been so long >> in the last meeting >> did >> we read a letter in >> I believe so >> that Dick had sent to us okay saying that we we should take more responsibility basically what he said >> and what we agreed even though we said
before it's not in our responsibility we agreed we'd like to look at the plan >> right look at the plan the plan discuss >> it Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Even though it's out of order. Yeah. >> Well, it's been so modified over the
years that it might have started out as something, but now it's >> Exactly. >> So, it's a big sand pit. >> He's It sounds that Dick is um concerned with He says members of the LMC strongly feel that this is not an if, but a when
um until another re release of salt laden waters will occur again. So he's referring back to um December of 2018 um when the s laden waters eventually got into the lake
because the ground was frozen um and the detention pond was overwhelmed and then he says further work community plans. So he wants the plans to be reviewed and accepted by all
um cognant town agencies and permits are obtained. He wants permits obtained from concom and mass D for the proposed empoundment area. But >> yeah,
>> and he wants uh LMC is recommending that an independent third party be hired at the proponents expense to oversee any future construction should any stream rerouting and/or empowerment be so approved. This third party would serve
to protect the town's best interests, especially the waters of Congaban. >> So they're worried, LMC is worried about sediment laden waters getting into Congam. He's worried because of what happened in 2018. He doesn't want it to happen again.
>> Right. Understandable. >> Yeah. >> So, I guess if Grimmaldi had done none of this, what would have happened in 2018? Would there have been a lot of water flushed through Grimmaldi's property and raced down to the lake? >> If he didn't clear,
>> if Grimmaldi did nothing, >> you know, on Boulder, >> Balder. Yeah. >> I'm not sure. >> If he had done nothing, would there have been a great amount of water that rushed down into the lake? Not sure. Would those great amounts happen more often had he done nothing? >> No way. No. >> So, one thing that I would say is this
is one thing. It's not jurisdictional if they're so concerned about stuff like that. Well, when people were on working for D the DPW the town, how much discharge does the town roadways go into
the lake that could be controlled that we're not doing and we're talking about something here that's not even jurisdictional? I can guarantee there's a lot of runoff that goes directly into the lake of untreated storm water that the town is responsible for.
>> So, most of that's treated now, right? >> Look at all those side >> all those little side roads and stuff. All >> shed. Dick's got a lot of cramps do a lot of the >> Yeah, but I'm just saying >> separator. >> I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm just saying like
>> there's still a lot of other >> maybe White Street has a couple of spots down there that >> still drains in the area but storm drains help >> in the event of another event. >> No, >> basically he's creating a giant storm
drain, >> right? >> Infiltration. >> So at some point they worry about it breaching the road for the >> Well, it's not going to breach the road. >> The goal here is to remove the dam. Okay. >> Right. And that's >> because that would cause the breach,
>> right? And I think that plan shows that the the dam is gone and they're just going to put in a 1 foot high >> wear. >> Yeah. >> Right. And the the the rip wrap is it's per it's got Yeah. It's got a lot of space. It's not like
>> sand with very very little space. And >> so I I view that based upon our last meeting that we'll review the plans >> and if we want to make any recommendations on the plans, we should so state them. If we're happy with the plans, we say you nothing.
>> Yeah, I don't think I see anything problem with anything. I mean, they're I think correcting the issue of a blowout. >> Would it be that blowout? Would they be willing to sub submit an RDA and then we could just
Would that be something that we would do if they submitted? >> No, I mean they don't have to because it's not really jurisdiction. >> I know. No, I know. But that's what I'm saying is then that's just like all right. Well, it's not that's us acknowledging it's not jurisdictional, >> right?
>> We don't want the >> I don't know. >> I do extra things. >> Well, I'm not saying we submit it. I'm saying would the >> Exactly. I think >> not was >> I think if this was um a new project that no one's gone out to
and the question of jurisdiction was there but because Chris and Dennis and Mass D had already gone out and essentially said it's like you draw the line in the sand is what Dennis was saying that it's not jurisdictional that
>> I mean I get what you're saying >> um but They actually get another delineation >> maybe. >> I don't know. I mean what is is has it been restored below that we are now where it is jurisdictional >> where
>> towards the road >> over here? >> Yeah. >> No idea. Um if we look at old maps. So this is 2019,
the year after the blowout. I mean, it's leaf off. It doesn't look very pretty. 2021 and 2023. Oops. Three. I don't know. I think it's just
filling in. I don't know. Me either. >> I'm just curious. >> Well, we looked at it and we talked about it. >> We did. >> How does the water get across the road?
Is there a pipe there? >> There is a pipe. Yeah. Where's the stream on the other side of the road? >> It comes out on the other side. >> So, this is the old town beach >> and it's just a spillway really. It's just and it doesn't flow all the time.
Of course, in case water does come through there and the water there is some water that does maybe come off the road. Yeah. >> There's an infiltration area here that's like a the tension bas out that goes down towards the lake.
>> So, what's your pleasure here? But I think that cementation pond area got filled up with the lab time. >> Yes. Good. That's part of the problem. >> I thought the letter from the town TPW said that they were okay with it and they but they had a couple little like
as long as they follow the plan and as long as they this this this were in favor of the plan. Was that when Randy was still around? >> That was John. I thought he had said he
talked to Randy. Okay. >> Okay. >> No action. Is that what I'm hearing? I'm hearing no action. >> Not our jurisdiction, but we did at least acknowledge and discuss. >> Okay. >> Anybody unhappy with that? Doesn't
appear to be problematic. You okay with that? All right, let's move on then. But old business, which we should be able to go through quickly, fall planting plan. Any any new discussion on that on that by anybody? >> No, only that. I want to hook up with
this guy right here. So, we could go over it. >> Okay. >> So, maybe sometime in January. >> Sure. All right. Open space. We pretty much discussed that pretty heavily in new business. >> The table item is going to stay on the table.
the retaining wall at 485 Lakes View Drive. Nothing new on that. Dead tree northbond conservation property. >> Yeah, the Sega continues. Um the Big Boss and Crane crew looked at the
septic plans and they agree that the one and a half inch pipe is fine. They thought it was a 4 in pipe to begin with, but after looking at the the septic plans, it's a 1 and 1/2 in pipe. And for extra precaution, they are waiting until this next Monday um for
the ground to be properly frozen. Um so they're going to take it down on the 22nd. Um I talked to the land owner or property owner. She's she's happy with it. >> So we're good to go. Hopefully by Christmas it'll be done. Okay. Anything
else on that? Okay, move on. Southfield conservation did have a meeting, but there was nothing concerning the lake on there. >> Conservation coordinator report. Anything new to bring up, Sabrina?
>> Um, no, not off the top of my head. >> Okay, other matters. Anybody got anything they want to bring up? Hearing none, I'll take a motion. >> I'll make a motion to close. >> Second motion.
>> All right. Just made the motion. Andy made the second. Roll call vote. Andy. Chris Brown. I cherry I unanimous vote to attend the meeting at end the year with 2020.