Okay, welcome to the Sparta Township Environmental Commission meeting. Um, we are live in the council chambers at the municipal building on Thursday, May 14th, 2026 at 7:03 p.m. Uh, the
stream is on YouTube uh on the Sparta TWWPs channel. Please take o please take notice that action will be taken on the following items at the environmental commission meeting of Thursday May 14th.
Um adequate notice of the meeting was provided to the public and the press on May 8th by delivering to the press and posting on the township website a copy of the notice. Can we salute the flagg to the flag of the United States of
America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> And we have attendance. >> Chair Nourwin >> here. Vice Chair Christine Rogers
>> here. >> Christine Dumbar, >> Barbara Casulka >> here, >> Robert Otto >> here, >> Alex Birdie >> here, >> Councilwoman Margie Murphy >> here, >> Nicholas Drato. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you Courtney. Um the first
item on our uh agenda is approval of minutes. If if everyone a chance to review them if you haven't done so already. >> Sorry, these these are the minutes from
uh April 23rd. I had uh just one correction on page two, second paragraph down, uh the final the second to last sentence in that paragraph, it says she was noted. So just a scratch was
>> is that $25,000 or $20,000 grant? >> I think that's a 20,000. Yes, good catch. >> And then the uh Sparta Glenn Trail Head. That's Oh, it's the second paragraph.
What? Oh, the trail head. The Spartland >> partic trail head. Is that Yonker's Landing? >> That's Yonker's Landing, isn't it? I >> think it's supposed to be. Is it? Or is it the the trail head? There's a trail head in the park, too, right?
Don't know. Does anyone have the flyer? >> The flyer. We posted that, right? >> Yes. On the town website. Page four. Um, third paragraph. I don't think the draft was provided by council.
Um, >> no. >> Was that Neil? was that that draft uh data center ordinance that we looked at during these minutes was I think that was the one that you had provided that we kind of just had been looking at for
a while. >> Yeah. The council didn't provide any >> right? >> No. uh council not with a C with an S but anyway either way it wasn't provided it was provided from within this >> yes >> committee or
commission >> so maybe uh the draft provide by Neil or the Neil bound I don't Yes, the the flyer does say Sparta Glenn trail head. >> Okay. >> On Sparta Glenn Road. So that must be in in the Glenn itself.
>> Yeah. Okay. That's good because I thought it was younger landing. I Yeah. Tell everybody. Okay. Anyone need more time to review? I have a motion to approve the minutes
of April 23rd, 2026. >> With those minor changes, so moved. >> I have a second. >> I'll second. >> All in favor? >> I
Thank you. >> Moving on. We have no correspondence. We have no applications. Uh we have a member of the public here. This is the time to make comments.
>> I brought notes, prepared remarks, so look out. Is this thing on for everyone in the room? >> And online >> and everyone else. >> And online. That's fair. >> Future >> Kathy Evan cows in Sparta.
I'm here tonight to share some thoughts based on the agenda item unfinished business topic data center large scale highintensity ordinance that I see. It's of uh keen interest to me. So I have some prepared remarks here
that I'd like to read to make sure I make my points clearly if you'll allow it. >> Certainly. >> Thank you. So, I'm not exactly sure when prospective large-scale business owners and builders caught on
that buying land in rural lowerc cost communities could be a way to increase their profits and reduce their cost. But it appears that they have. These people seem unaffected by the consideration of how what they're trying
to build will impact the communities in which they've intended to build their mega projects. They don't seem to want the public to notice their intentions, fearing the headache of public outcry and outrage.
Instead, they start discussions with municipalities in private outside of the public eye. As we just saw in Andover, ordinance was ordinances were changed last year to add
a permitted use a data center first. Then when someone figured out there could still be issues with their application at the land use board because their project would need a building height variance, an additional ordinance was created changing the allowable height to prevent the need for
a variance. At no time did the town's elected representatives engage their community to ask the important question first. Do you want this in your community? Or can this town sustain a mega project without
the loss of the town's and county's finite resources? They decided they knew best and proceeded forward. In fact, their land use board voted that the ordinance was not inconsistent with
their master plan. How can that be? Any logical review of the plan would suggest otherwise. This was also pointed out by their residents during recent meetings. Those that are speaking out against these proposed mega projects don't sound
to me like they're anti-warehouse or anti-data center for that matter. It sounds like they're concerned for the town, its finite resources, and the health and financial impact to its residents and their quality of life. As
am I. Not far from here in Kennallorth, a massive 400,000 square foot AI data center was approved and is currently being built. Residents were unaware of this plan going about their daily lives and tasks.
There's big concerns around a strain to their electrical infrastructure and more. They've installed these massive stadium light stadium like mega electric poles down the streets. immediately
changing the character of the town. It seems to be too late for Kennett, but it didn't have to be that way. And of course, a $250 million tax credit was given to the company. Kettleworth is a cautionary tale that
we'll be watching to see the effects of such a large development realized on its residents and resources. In light of recent and ongoing remarkable opposition to mega-cale developments nationwide and in New
Jersey including Andover, Monroe, Seerville, Vineland, Kennallorth, as we just mentioned, East Windsor, Peton, Hardest, and even our own community here in Sparta. I implore you to think
differently and take action. I am encouraged that the large-scale highintensity ordinance discussion is on the agenda tonight. Ordinances that focus on permitted and prohibited uses with minimal
considerations of project impacts to the community are in my opinion shortsighted. Ordinances need to align to master plan in terms of consistency. Intensity of use seems to be a much
better gauge on if a project is appropriate for a given location. Considering more broadly areas of impact such as the character of a town, important natural resources like aquifers and wells for safe and sustained drinking water consumption,
sensitive ecosystems, traffic, utilities like electric and water, and even emergency response capabilities. To find an example of this contemplation, we need look no further than the Highland Highlands Council regional master plan model for
ordinances. There we see at least six considerations, including prime groundwater recharge areas, which are highly permeable land that allows rain and snow melt to infiltrate and replenish underlying aquifers.
Wellhead protection areas, which are surface and subsurface land areas that surround a public well or well field where contaminants are reasonably likely to reach the well source uh water source. Open waters and repairarian areas which
are critical areas that include springs, streams, wetlands and lakes and the surrounding land that protects these waters and wildlife. Number four, resource res water resource availability, which speaks for itself as the ability for humans to have access to
clean drinking water. Let's not forget that the Highlands region supplies over 70% of the drinking water for the state. Protection of forest resources, which considers the protection and preservation to the maximum extent possible of contiguous forests and
avoids deforestation. And finally, six, protection of steep slopes, which are critical to prevent severe soil erosion, landslides, and habitat destruction because clearing vegetation on steep terrain removes
natural stabilization as well as helps reduce flooding. These considerations and more that experts smarter than me could speak to and continue to enumerate should be considered for every potential development application.
I ask that our town not only considers the use itself, but also the impact to any given application in terms of its scale and intensity. It's not that our town and its surrounds have to adopt the regional master plan,
although I wish they would because I presume it offers state protection since it's created by state law. However, why not use it as an example of how Sparta and the surrounding communities contemplate planning and preservation from a more broad lens than just
permitted versus prohibited uses. We have an opportunity to act before it's too late and the next mega project attempts to come to Sparta. I implore you to recommend to the town council, the master plan subcommittee, and
therefore ultimately the planning and zoning boards that are hearing development applications to consider this issue more broadly in an attempt to ensure responsible development to protect our community for years to come. Thank you.
We have a couple empty chairs up here if you want to consider joining the environmental commission. >> Second that. >> I third it. >> Yes, those are precisely the concerns that we have and we're we've been
working on on this. Um, as you see on the agenda, that's our first topic. Um, but Rob, did you have something that you wanted to supersede this with? >> Uh, so I
I want to see if we could talk about that later. I don't know if you're able to say later. Um, but I think I know, you know, we're we're statutory, but but we're a cool kind of statutory. So, so I
think there could be a good opportunity um to to have high level discussions later. Um so I had kind of asked if we could uh shift this to the end because I think there's a lot to discuss. Um and
and I appreciate you coming in and and talking about I share a lot of those same concerns and sentiments. So thank you. Thanks, Rob. >> So maybe >> when did you want to uh
>> Well, so I was just saying uh for the unfinished business if we resume talking about this after Sparta day, push it to the end, >> end of the list. Okay. >> If that's if that's okay. >> Um
>> okay. Okay. >> To buy a little bit of time for a few other people to arrive here. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sure. >> We're we're still in our public comment period. Uh >> that's >> so you can >> Does it have to be on what you're talking about or
>> No, I think we're pretty relaxed here. >> Okay. >> It's open. I got a call that you were going to be discussing data centers and I'm Vivian Parameter. I live at Five Morgan Drive and I want to see I want you to know
that the experience in Andover was a nightmare and we need to let the town council know and without a doubt we do not want it here. We don't have the water. We don't have the environment to
pro to provide for it and we don't want the traffic. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. So we want to um continue with I guess the endover data center is part
of that discussion. So we don't really have to >> yeah I mean we don't have to if if we just shift all that >> to the end of the unfinished business move on to reports. Um, I mean, again, I think if we're going to continue
unfinished business and have discussion on data centers and and over um the recent events at Andover, we we could invite more public discussion at that point, right? >> I I don't see why not.
>> Okay. So, >> okay. So, we'll move on to reports. Um Christine's not here for the planning board and I missed the master plan subcommittee meeting on Monday. So, I
have nothing to add and um I don't know if anyone else does Margie council other than the fact that we're still No, we didn't have much either except for the fact that
we're again tabled the veterans look back. Um, and we're still going over the budget, which is pretty very lean right now. And just to
clarify in case anybody had questions that there is going to be Memorial Day parade. I've heard scuttlebutt we are having a Memorial Day parade. The Elks are doing the Fourth of July parade. Nothing has been changed. Right.
And so that continues. It's just that we've had to cut the budget and it's due to a lot of inflationary and lack of raising the taxes in the past which has put us in quite a bind. So >> health care as well.
>> Extremely high health care. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And >> the health care for the state healthcare >> that's the main driver of this uh crisis. Yeah. One of the two main drivers. Correct. Okay. Thank you, Margie.
>> You're welcome. >> Um, I'll bring that up later. Uh, okay. I guess we can move on to unfinished business. Um, starting with the >> Did you have anything for master plan subcommittee? >> Sorry. >> Do you have anything for master?
>> No. No. I said I I missed the meeting on Monday, so I have nothing new to add. Oh, they from the Rev 250. >> We did have the uh plaques installed at the Presbyterian Church. They were made.
We fit we had some money left over from a grant from uh >> I think it's I believe I'm not sure. I'm not going to say. I think JC, but I'm not sure uh who was the grant. But we got signs made for the marker to say
that there were, I believe, eight graveyards there from Revolutionary Period, which we did the uh we had the the whole dedication to them and then we just installed last week. Commander
Lichfield from the VFW installed them. >> Church. >> Wonderful. >> Church, not Parson. That's right. >> Pardon me. >> Just the church. >> The First Presbyterian Church. Yeah. >> Yep. Okay. Main Street. Okay. >> On the wall in the back as you walk
through. >> Okay. >> Great. I guess it would pertain to the environmental. Yeah. >> Okay. All right. Now we can move on to um our ecology education grant for bat
boxes. >> I still haven't heard anything from them. Uh >> I can follow up this week and see what is the status of that. Okay. >> Thanks, Barbara. >> Uh winter salt week. Christine's not here
to talk about it, so we'll table that till our next meeting. Um the next item is environmental commission checklist of concerns for applications. >> I think we put it on the back burner and
we are working on the other things right now. >> Yeah, >> I think that's what it is. >> That's great. >> We'll definitely go back to that. >> That's that's good because this is a lot. >> Yeah, >> that's what we're what is next is a lot. So, um, except for, uh, Sparta day,
that's not a lot. I won't be here on Sparta Day, so I don't know if anyone had anything in mind or any desires to have a table there. >> It's the 30th, right? >> The 30th. Yeah. >> Yeah. I can't do the 30th either. >> Yeah, it looks like
>> Is it June? June 30th. May >> May >> I don't >> um >> what did we do last year cuz I was at the Rev 250 table. >> We did pretty much what we did on you
know we had our own table like like we did at Earth Day. >> At Earth Day. >> Yes. >> I think it's good to have a presence there. >> It is. >> I think I mean 30th I'm available. I think I have to check
with my wife, make sure. I mean, I could man the table if we had, you know, if we if we wanted to do that. >> Um, that would be wonderful if you if you would and had had some help. >> What time is Sparta day?
>> Usually >> 11 10 11 >> 11 to 3 something like that. Yeah. Something it like Earth Day >> that was 11 to 3,
>> right? >> Well, uh, we don't have a lot of time to plan for it. So, if we want to >> No, >> if we want to do something, >> what's been done in the past? >> Sorry. >> What's been done in the past for >> We basically had a an information table
like we did at Earth Day and we had a game which we still have here. I could see if we could hang on to it for a little longer >> because they haven't been beating down my door to return it yet. So, um, >> are there still spots available to
reserve a table or No, >> that's a good question. That's what >> we can find out. >> Yes. >> Where is Sparta Day at uh >> Station Park? Station Park. >> And there's also a cost associated with it too. Do and we don't have a budget
yet, do we? >> No. >> Okay. So, >> so that's the answer. >> We will by then. >> I hope um the budget will be worked on next month, next meeting.
>> Um >> which is before May 30th. >> How could we do that? Would we be able to um do we have any funds left over? Do you know, Courtney? >> I definitely have to ask because I'm not too sure.
>> Yeah. All right. Um >> so let's find out if if we can still join if there's a spot and then >> Right. We'll do that. >> Can probably talk about it after we know. >> Right. >> Right.
>> Is it who who runs that? Is that the uh >> I think it's the junior woman of the >> junior women's. >> Yeah, I think it's the Yeah. >> Okay. Um let me
let me look into that tomorrow and try to figure that out. Okay. All right. And we would have Alex is available. Are you available, Rob? >> I never I have >> It's It's hard with the two kids. I'll
have to check. Um I could be available. >> You could. >> I believe so. >> Barbara, you said you won't be. I >> I don't know yet. >> Okay, Christine, >> it depends on >> and I won't. >> I have a field trip to the Pine Lands.
>> Hey, Margie, do you know if uh LMPF is doing anything? Do they have a table? >> I don't know. >> Maybe you could find out because if they had a table or kind of combined forces. >> I don't know. But that's I'm trying to remember if they were there last year
>> just to kind of >> Yeah, I don't remember. I I kind of think that they were, but I'm not sure. >> I don't know. >> Okay. Well, if you're if you're considering going, I'm just thinking if
you could find out uh because if they're having a table and maybe we could cross-pollinate, get some >> Okay. >> collaboration if if you want. I mean,
>> maybe we can also have help from the um high school students like we did during this part of day, the Earth Day, >> the green team. That's >> Yeah, >> that would be good. Maybe we can. >> That was the college club.
>> College >> popcorn and then like national honor society. >> Um >> maybe 30 schools isn't out yet. >> No. >> Okay.
>> Oh, sorry, Kathy. What was that? Okay, great. Thank you. >> All right. >> Yeah, like last time we didn't do any kind of crafts or anything like that. We just had like >> the spinner game or, you know, something like that. And then we had more like just ourformational packets, the same
ones as last time, and then like a sign-in sheet for if anyone wanted to join the green team, >> right? >> I think you were right right next to us. >> Yeah. Yes, I think so. >> Rev 250, >> right? >> Yeah.
>> And we have these green team members we can reach out to for help, too. Right. >> So, All right. Okay, moving on to our big topic. >> Well, do we have any I I know we like
sped through all this. Do we have any new business we could shift to because I think it'll be worth it to have uh >> all right if there >> sorry >> are you expecting? >> Yeah. Okay. uh just just other opinions that would be good um okay I think as
part of the broader discussion >> sure >> but I mean you know >> I don't want to just delay everything so >> um okay uh under unfinished business I I had a
question have we paid our inject dues yet pro probably not right >> that I'll have Ask Michelle cuz she was doing that whole thing with Anjack with the talking about the grant, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Right. >> That would be something I have to ask
her. But I think it I think she closed it out or whatever she her email. Okay, that I'll have to ask cuz I haven't heard anything yet. >> Okay. other thing I think I had. Oh, um, the sustainable Jersey summit is tomorrow. Is anyone going?
I No, I I have gone to this in the past. It's a great event with lots of different speakers and programs and and classes like kind of like the Rivers Conference. Um, but I can't go tomorrow. I have I'm finishing up another class. So,
Nobody else. So that's it's a trip to Homeell. >> Sorry. >> Yeah, I know. >> Is Homedale where Bell Labs is? >> Homeell. Is that where Bell Labs? >> Bell Labs, right? >> Um,
how about >> Well, we haven't done a We didn't say anything since Earth Day, so I could do a quick >> Oh, recap. Recap, right? Kudos to Earth. >> I think that went so well. So, thank you all for coming and making an appearance, giving up your Saturday. It was rainy, but we were like so excited with the
turnout. We had really a great day. Um, we had it inside the municipal building on the 23rd or on the 25th, right? And it was that freezing cold 40°ree rainy Saturday,
but we still had great attendance. So, thank you to everyone who came and helped make it possible. Courtney, thanks for all your help. We had a really good attendance with lots of high schoolers there running different activities. So, we had really good turnout with families. So, that was great to see. We had some new people
that we welcomed into the fold. Got some new names on our green team list and we're looking forward to doing other events like that in the future. >> Thank you. Thank you for all your hard work, Christine. You did it incredible turnout. And thank you for all who
donated to the food pantry. That was much appreciated. >> It was The kids really loved doing all those different games. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, >> they really did. >> And I think we filled the space in here really well. Like we were spread out, but we had just enough space to have everyone
>> Yeah. >> you know, covered the area and not feel too crowded. Good music. People really liked having the music inside. So, it was a good day overall. >> It was I, you know, I couldn't envision having all those people in here, but it
worked out really, really well. And maybe even a little better than it would have been if it hadn't been raining. >> Yeah. I feel like maybe this might be the place to do it in the future. Y >> um >> you don't have like the accident that
Right. That derailed the last one, >> right? >> That's right. >> People are like, "Oh, this >> about that." >> Um, anyone have any new business?
>> Nope. >> Back to the to the data center. >> No, I have one one uh item for uh uh new business. Uh, I have a project I need to do for my environmental stewardship class that I took w with Ruckers that I
just finished uh other than the other than this project and I wanted to try to work towards the it's only five points but it's a sustainable Jersey action for backyard composting. Um, so I I wanted
to start getting the ball rolling on doing something for that. Uh, so just wanted to mention that. >> What does that entail? >> Um, it it could be workshops. Um, if we could get we could possibly get a grant
to uh obtain, you know, backyard composting bins. That's that's just a thought. I don't know if we if we can do that yet, but uh having workshops and and events, maybe we could set something up at the
farmers market. And I know I've been talking to the manager at Simple Bare Necessities about this >> and might be able to partner with them. So uh >> so what has to be involved in as far as
like the sustainable jersey uh what what has to be done for that >> there there's a series of requirements uh you have to um uh demonstrate that that you've led
workshops and and and you know spread information about this. I I can't remember the exact requirements yet, but >> just uh something to >> keep in mind and get started.
>> Neil, do you remember um I think Dan had talked about at one point a few years ago uh looking at garbage collection and composting. Was that ever on our radar? >> We have talked about it. Yes. It's not
>> not with the bear here probably though, right? >> Well, it's Yeah, it's not the easiest thing to do and uh finding some you know either having a service um to pick up
the pick up uh kitchen waste and and and scraps. >> Doesn't do it. >> They don't have any composting. In fact, no one around does. other parts of New Jersey do. Uh, but there's there's nobody really in Sussex County that that that'll do a pickup
>> or even a even a drop off because I tried to find for the pantry because we get a tremendous amount uh when we get food donated and and from farmers from different stores and we have to go through it and all the the spoiled vegetables and fruits and whatnot. We um
I went everywhere trying to find a place to take it and finally found farms that wanted it for their animals. >> The farm's not >> Oh, good. Good. So, you're It's not going to the landfill. >> Nope. It is not. >> Excellent. >> Nope.
It did took a while though >> because there is no place. >> So, will you come pick up from our houses if we gather good stuff? >> Yeah. >> Buy me a truck. Yeah, I'll do that. >> So, but no, but how does that work? So,
from the pantry, so the pantry is like if if there was some collection. >> Oh, we have quite a bit. And then and some of And the farms come and pick it up. >> Oh, they come and pick it up. >> They come and pick it up from us. >> So, could restaurants drop off to the
some of the could restaurants drop their food off and their waste to the pantry? save people driving it to the >> I don't know that might be a little bit much for the different >> for the farms. We don't have that many farms yet. >> Okay. >> That that come pick up. So that would
that would entail quite a bit. >> So I Yeah, I don't know. Um yeah, one of the uh sessions tomorrow is on um food waste in schools and I know
there are some schools in I believe Newton does have a program where they their um cafeteria food waste goes to recycler or composter. It might be a
choice. I'm not sure. There's actually there's a I believe a legislative law that also says that like grocery stores that throw out if it's past date or if it's close to date, they
throw a lot of like there um the cheeses and the meats and things that they've already cut. Um there's some stores that that donate to the pantry. There's a certain store that will not because they're afraid of lawsuits, but we've got a a letter from the state that
says they cannot be held liable for if anybody got sick or whatever. And we pick up a tremendous amount from the grocery stores of food that is just by even though it says sell by. >> Doesn't mean it's anything wrong with it. >> Absolutely.
>> And they don't they donate it to the pantry a lot. So you don't have any restrictions on accepting uh expired food then? >> We we do >> if it's if it's dairy obviously. >> Well yeah we we do but we check everything when it comes in.
>> So if it's an expired package >> if it expired and and best buy dates are two different things. So yeah we don't we don't take anything if it's expired by the date >> that we pick it up. We can't accept it because we have rules we have to go by. But but stores can certainly and they're
trying to get them to throw out and restaurants. I I get food from restaurants, >> right? >> Donate it to the pantry, too, >> so they don't have to put it in their garbage. >> Oh, good. >> That's good to know. >> Mhm. So, do we know what what schools in
Sparta do with the food? like what's what's >> some of them actually they will donate to us if they have uh because we have actually weekend like lunches that we provide for schools >> for students. >> Um there are some schools that if they
have leftover too. It's not compost or anything but it's still good food that they they haven't been able to use that they donate to us. >> Okay. >> Good. Yeah. The schools do. >> Wonderful. Mhm.
But if more restaurants and more grocery stores could not be afraid to donate, it would be great. >> Would y >> I noticed um I dropped off something at the Lake Mohawk um food donation.
>> I pick it up. >> Oh, you do? And and I I noticed the sign there that said we do not accept do not acceptired food. But those th those expired dates aren't always differentiated between used by and expiration dates, are they? >> Yes.
>> Used by and expired. Expire usually has to do something with if it's not shelf stable. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Um if it's best or used by or best buy, >> that's not it is recommended for the freshness. That's how they look at it. The used by or Yeah.
>> And it's a lot. until sometimes few months. >> Oh yeah. >> Until the foods, you know, ready >> when we were growing up. There were no such things. >> There were no best buyer, right? Sell by you. >> Yeah. It's a suggestion. My wife suggest
my wife's like, "You eat like it's the Great Depression." I'm like, "This isn't Yeah. It's not >> It's If it looks okay and smells okay, it's probably >> It's okay." >> Yep. Exactly. >> Want to waste food. Yeah. And you know it's it's it's
marketing and it moves it helps the companies move their goods faster. >> Sure. Makes them helps them sell more. >> Correct. Correct. >> That's a scam. >> In other words, >> spam. What?
>> Let's not put it on the minutes. Spam never fires. scale >> pre-expired >> one thing uh if for um the tree ordinance I meant to ask about that because it came up in discussion
don't we have to adhere by state law to have some kind of >> the answer is yes okay >> to the MS4 permits yes >> and that was >> for the MS4 permit for the New Jersey DPMS4 permits. That was like one of the requirements
>> two years ago. >> Is the tree ordinance part of that? >> Yes. were >> and that was that was the trigger that we started working on it and then >> I just kept hearing >> being is that is that still sitting with the council
>> or I don't know the engineer was reworking according to the uh new standards >> and I thought there were storm water standards but then I started getting into some of this stuff that we're going to be talking about shortly
>> and uh I found not that we might not be in compliance with state guidelines because we don't have Okay. >> Yeah, there are new uh MS4 uh requirements. >> So, could we maybe bring that back uh
for discussion next meeting? Uh the tree ordinance, where are we? Because I know Barbara worked on that when I first started as a you know like little >> baby environmental commission person. I was hearing about it then and then it
was like, "Oh, it's being rewritten." >> Yeah, it has been uh >> Okay. >> It has been a while since we >> Yeah. >> If we're not if we're not in compliance, that's kind of a problem. >> I'll uh check on that. >> I I have a feeling that we're
at least if we're not in compliance with MS4 yet, we they're working on it because >> And that's the DPW. >> Uh you DP. Oh, DP. >> Yes. >> Sorry. >> Can I finish?
>> Yeah. Because we do have the tree removal ordinance, old old one, but this one is not in in compliance with the requirements of the D right now. That's why we started >> climate change resilience, all of that. Right.
>> That's why we started that. Yeah. That's why it was even mentioned and that was the trigger. that the new MS4 permit and New Jersey DP all of that trigger that new tree ordinance. So yeah,
>> the the climate change uh um vulnerability uh assessment, that's part of the >> that's part of it >> new master plan. >> But I think the town council approved some ordinance to basically adopt and replace
old language in the code for storm water resilience. So Margie, maybe when you bring it forward to town council, you can ask, "Hey, didn't we just do something with storm water, uh, the code related to storm water per the state to
stay in compliance related to that? Where are we with our tree ordinance?" Um, because I think that was worked on and then it was shelved or it was Yeah. >> Don't know. Uh yeah, the the MS4 permitting should be on the township
website. Um I meant to go look at that to see where it is, but um that should all be up there. >> Okay, we'll find out. >> And Rob, uh going back to a couple meetings ago when we were talking about
the speaker series, are we going to have Did you? >> So I reached out to Paul. >> Yeah, I reached out to Paul because I thought as an engineer he uh might be interested in this latest thing. So I've been kind of
caught up in in um this topic, but I did ask him. I said, "Here are the dates." I think um so we had talked about uh we have someone in our pretty local uh region who developed um
a product which doses um waste water from residential um use. Well, I guess it's not limited to residential, but it does it by the amount of waste water produced. It doses and pre-treats it with alum, which um
binds to the phosphorus, I think, right? And so it makes it inert. So, how that's helpful for a lake community um is that it's going to reduce the growth of algae. Um
that's yeah, it it just neutralizes what would otherwise be um fertilizer. So he invented something um and he's been testing it with I think NJ as well as
the federal government possibly has overseen some of his tests. So um he was interested to speak in depth about it produced some of his uh his study data on it because it it wasn't just dealing with the wastewater.
it was it was doing some other unique things related to just septic uh which was kind of interesting. So I think now that people in the lake communities are getting their boats on the lakes this is kind of the perfect time the next couple
months if we could have him discuss what he's working on. It's not anything that's mandated by the state, but it might be something that if you're concerned about your impacts on your regional environment. Um
it's just good to know about because I know back in the 90s and like even I didn't grow up in this area but um I grew up Long Island Sound and and visited some lake communities and it was always a concern was you know your
not just your your septic safe toilet paper for the septic systems but also your use of shampoo and soap and you know that uh laundry and what you use laundry clothes and that that high
phosphorus um nitrogen. Yeah. So, uh I will wait and see what he says, but I I gave him the next three dates and said, "Let me know." Um but I'll follow up and see who who else were we thinking of.
Did we want to do anything with deer? I would like to do something with deer. I'd like to do something with deer, too. >> Yeah, I was just replanting three replacement trees right before this. >> Oh, another potential speaker.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. On deer and uh on on backyard composting, too. >> Look into >> to feed the deer. They actually don't don't fit my compost bin.
>> They don't. >> But the stuff I put in it is so bad that it's not really I don't think anybody would eat it. >> So you don't have to pour like ammonia or anything like some people. >> No.
>> Okay. >> Okay. Anything else for new business? >> I just got one thing. It's not really new business, just a general service announce announcement. The New Jersey School of Conservation in the new governor's budget is due to lose
all its funding, which is $3 million is what is what it needs to be funded. Um, it's I've been to multiple classes up there. They have programs for adults, for uh children, for schools. Um, and
it's excellent. Um, I've done fly fishing classes. I've done edible plant walks. Um they did a hike re recently. Um they have something coming up on dragon flies and damsel flies which I'm
interested in. But I would just say contact your representatives and try to get the funding in the budget. Um, I think it's uh vitally important uh to be um teaching
and exposing kids and and people to nature and especially when you know in times like these. So, >> absolutely. >> Thank you. >> I've I've been there and done hikes there as well. It's a wonderful place and >> has a long long history of
>> Can we share it on the Facebook maybe? >> Yeah. Do you have do you have like information with the link where to >> Yeah, there >> Yeah, I can I can pick something up. >> Yeah, I >> we can get who to contact. >> Sure. There there's there's a petition and uh
>> Oh, is there? Yes, I I remember signing something and >> yeah, it's like one of those auto you can like automatically write to your it has a pre-written thing that gets sent out to your representatives which our representatives here >> in the state legislature Parker space
>> base >> um >> um yeah Fantasia >> and Um like >> yes >> and the commissioners too. Uh >> yep the group >> the county commissioners
>> and uh >> I believe I believe somebody spoke on >> Carney, >> right? I believe somebody was spoke on this at the commissioner's meeting last night. >> Oh, really? >> That's what I read somewhere. Yeah.
>> Oh, okay. And it goes right directly to Governor Cheryl, too, >> right? >> Yeah. We'll we'll get that to one of us will get that to you, Courtney. >> Okay.
>> All right. So, worth worth the wait. Uh >> thanks. >> Um >> hi, we have another member of the public. if you wish to speak. We've um we're still in our comment period unofficially.
Well, I had a thought and if if you if you like it. Um, so I attended the Andover uh the two most recent Andover meetings and so I haven't prepared this but I mean I could just read uh the definition
of data center that Andover is choosing to use in their uh proposed prohibition and then I think it would be informative for us to get that on the record as we then have a conversation. >> Is that good?
>> All right. So, oh that now uh so according to Andover data center shall mean and include any facility used primarily for the storage, management and processing of digital or electronic
data which houses computer and network systems including associated components such as servers, network equipment and appliances, telecommunications and data storage systems. Systems for monitoring and managing infrastructure performance,
internet related equipment and services, data communications connections, environmental controls, fire protection systems, and security systems and services. Typical accessory components of a data center may include transformers, electrical substations,
environmental controls, fire suppression, generators, redundant power supplies, and security facilities. So with that, uh, yeah, I would kind of like it to continue to, uh, have the public opine on that maybe.
>> Sorry to set you up. >> Should I go here? Over there. What's this? Good. >> Wherever you >> feel, you know, this might be better like pick up. >> All right, that's good. >> Is it muted or No, you can hear me, right? Okay. >> Y,
>> um, Robert Bole. um CEO and founder of Planet Networks. Um so the trouble with some of these definitions um Warren County actually their ordinance was one of the first ones and they you know basically have I think that I'm guessing handovers came from Warren County. It's
basically the same, almost verbatim. And I said, "That's fine." But I I actually wrote to the commissioners and I said, "Um, you realize that we're in the process of rolling out fiber throughout Warren County and technically this definition would stop us from putting in, you know, would stop half of your county from having internet access." Um,
and they said, "Oh, no, that doesn't apply to you." And I said, "Well, the way you guys wrote it, it does." Um but so if if let's just say Sparta were to to you know implement this um the the
optimum building technically that's a data center by that definition. Um the CO uh in White Tier Plaza for Bright Speed that's a data center by that definition. Um our little thing on Maple A that's a data center by that
definition. Um there's a uh over behind um off of Route 15, there's a little hut in the woods. Um nobody knows it's there, but it's kind of like behind where you know where Data Print used to be where Data Print where Data Print was.
>> Um Road. No, no, it's on the It's on the um Trying to think directionally. It's on the west side of 15 North. Um it's uh just past Dunkin Donuts. If you pull into the driveway there, there's a building. There's a little over in the woods there. There's a little data center. There's a little data center
according to this definition that provides all the telephone service to everyone on that side of Sparta. >> Oh. >> Um yeah. And then there's um I think there's another one up on Glen Road that provides telephone service up there. Those are both Brightspeed facilities. So people don't know about these things. They're everywhere, but people don't
know about them because it's like responsible for the modern world, you know, like we just, you know, people forget about it. Um, and then, um, I know at least one or maybe two buildings that are on Wilson Drive would technically, I don't want to call any
particular companies out because there's all these like people with pitchforks and torches now, but um, you know, technically two of them would qualify as data centers. Um, so there's I mean there's lots of and and you know there's lots of other um you know I'm sure that
the imaging center over on you know right down the road here on news they have a room with a lot of computers and storage and fire protection everything because you take images you go in there for an MRI or you know cat scan or something they store all those images and technically that room is a data center according to that definition. So
I think that there's a lot of um there's definitely a lot of fear and some of it you know the the things that people are afraid of are legitimate. So like you know there people you know and I also a lot of people vilified me for saying hey listen let's hear what the proposal is
before you like you know completely say no. Um but um you know the there are data centers that are built responsibly that don't really have much of an impact or any impact on the surrounding areas but there are also ones that are not built responsibly that
have very bad impacts on the areas. So mo most data centers today use closed loop systems. They don't use any water from the surrounding thing unless it's some they use for humidification and it's like it's like somebody taking a shower or two a day. It's like not you
know it's no more than you're running your dishwasher a few times uses for for those things. Um the um you know you can mitigate against most of the bad things. A lot of the egregious things that you hear about are people who have bad
design or who um just don't care because they just, you know, it's the cheapest way to do it. Like anything, like you could just build something inexpensively and have disproportionate impact on the surroundings or you can do things right and not have those same problems. So um
I think that the way to think about these types of regulations is not rather than the definition of what a data center is um what they should be focused on is what are the impacts on the community. So does it use water? Does it give off any kind of you know noise
that's going to be disruptive? One of the things that people in in Andover were saying is oh all the light pollution. It's like it's a data center. There's no light. You can turn off all the lights and run it totally dark outside. Doesn't matter. I mean it doesn't need light outside. Um but you know a lot of these things with with
proper you know planning and proper code and proper um kind of um ordinances that you can put in place. All of these things can be mitigated against depending on and then you can kind of rightsize like and say okay well this is okay and appropriate an appropriate use
in our town. this other use is not. And depending on what that is, you know, you can say, okay, there's there's power limits or there's noise limits. And like one of the things that we we always do because we have little generators and all our little pops that run all over the place is, you know, our personal and it's it's um you know what we've always
designed to and I think it's now part of the code in New Jersey for um like all the generators are regulated by DP if they're over a certain size. Um but like we say 50 dBm at the at the property line. So, like it's it's no more than a car running. Like you can't hear
anything more than you would if someone had a car running in the driveway and you're at the property line. And that's the way it should be. And you can it's a little bit more expensive to buy a bigger um you know exhaust system. You have to derate the engine a little bit or whatever, but you can make it so these things are very quiet. You can you
use staggered um blades on fins so that they don't you know so that it breaks up its own acoustic signature and you don't hear as much noise. You can have baffles in the way that you design things and the way you sight the building that the generators are on the far side not where they're now closer to houses and you can
have um different types of uh noise deadening that makes it really really quiet so you don't really hear things. So there are ways of mitigating a lot of these problems and a lot of things that people are concerned with. But having the right thoughtful ordinances that don't ban uses that are important to the
community, but then also let you guys and the community itself decide does it make sense to have a facility of 50,000 ft? Does it make sense to have a facility of 100,000 ft? Does is 20,000 ft your limit or you know whatever. But having something thoughtful where you
think about it and where you actually um have a a hearing and say, "Okay, these are the things that we think are reasonable. These are the things we don't think are reasonable." And these are things that are never acceptable in our community. Doing anything to pollute our water, using anything to use excessive amounts of water here. The thing is, reality is most of these
closed loop systems, you need distilled water in them anyway. They're not going to distill the water on site. It's all trucked in from an industrial processing plant that distills the water. You add glycol to it. At that point, you can't put it down the drain. You can't put it in a septic. You'd be polluting. All that stuff is held in a storage tank.
The company that comes in to bring your glycol in your distilled water will take the old stuff out. They process it. They run it through a, you know, a stack. The same thing is like petroleum. They distill it. They get they get the ethylene glycol out and they get the water out, whatever. And whatever the
distillate is that's left is the the toxic stuff they have to deal with. But that's all kind of industrial processes. There's companies that do that. That's what they do. And so, but having having this stuff all codified by in by, you know, well thought out um can let you
have the economic benefit of having these types of facilities if it's something that Sparta and the citizens decide they want um without doing silly things like saying Brightspeed can't provide phone service in SAR anymore and Planet can't provide internet and you know the um Optimum can't provide cable
service. So um anyway that's that's my thought and I'm happy to help in any way I can be helpful. I have no and I said to people I said I have no you know horse race. I don't I'm not trying to build hypers scale data center. I don't I don't need to build anything. I just I've built data centers around the
country over the years. Um built one in Kansas. I built one in Los Angeles. I built several in New Jersey. Um you know again there were small you know much smaller facilities than some of these big ones but I'm very familiar with them. We're in a bunch of data centers and in you know in Ashurn, Virginia, the biggest one there is we're we have space
in there and we have equipment in there. So I'm very familiar with them how they work whatever. And if anyone is curious or wants to find out and this goes to the public too, but you know the the the environmental commission or the planning commission or zoning or whatever, I'm happy to give you I have access to a lot of these data centers around New Jersey
because we have space in them. I'm happy to arrange a tour and bring people around and show them how things really work and how these systems work and because knowledge is really it's to me I it's very frustrating the willful ignorance that some people display and just like I don't want to hear anything that contradicts my view and it's like
listen I'm not trying to like change your mind. I'm just trying to say the things you're saying are not accurate. Here's some facts and then you can make a decision based on reality not based on you know something you saw on YouTube. So anyway hopefully that's helpful. >> Thank you Mr. Bole. I was just reading
the long thread on Next Door before I came here uh this afternoon uh where people, you know, people are full of misinformation. >> I saw you trying to >> to correct them. Um
>> yeah, the Endover group where they they stated a bunch of things that weren't accurate and I posted and I said, "Hey guys, this isn't right. These are some this is what the way these things actually work or whatever." And so they banned me and blocked me. No, I don't know. >> Yeah, I know that. Uh
and that the the Andover ordinance does in fact make the existing data centers illegal, right? >> Yeah, we don't have any data center anything classified, but the um on Route 517 um you know where all the antique stores are in 206 there. So, if you make
a left there if you're going south or right if you're going north um and where the church is right across the street from the church is a little um there it's an Andover's um it's the Andover central office for all the phones for Andover. Anything is 973786 comes out of that building. And so
that's now technically illegal according to Andover's ordinance. So they probably don't know it's there. They probably don't know that they did that. But you know, maybe it's pre-existing. I don't know. But So, >> thank you. >> Pre-existing pre-existing
non-conforming. So, yeah, I I started down I appreciate Mr. Bole coming because I I started looking at So, we have we have a copy of a resolution warehouse to data center conversion moratorum and then a
municipal resolution for an indefinite zero hypers scale data center moratorum. And I started on those as well as just a general data center uh which had a definition probably almost exactly like what I read out before. And to me coming
from looking at uses and trying to balance uses with uh positive negative criteria, it just seems sloppy. Uh seemed like we could do better. Um, I've kind of done a
re really deep dive. Uh, I listened to, um, some township officials or county officials, I guess, in Lowden County and that's where Okay. >> Yeah. Ashurn. >> So, that's like what do they call it? Like data center alley or something. >> So, uh, they're working on their
reality, I think, is that they got these facilities. is the facilities were built um with older technology without really consideration for uh being good neighbors and or residential
development happened around them. Um and so they're they're at the point where they're kind of trying to mitigate and say look like this is really loud or this is really bright or this whatever it is. And two, I think the data center
operators credit, they're they're mitigating, but we don't want to be mitigating. But I also don't think that we want to just do a complete ban. I think there's an opportunity based on Sparta's recent history in the last several years
where maybe we could look at the negative criteria aspect of it and instead of because for planning I see different uses I see oh this is a I shouldn't this is a
trucking terminal this is a warehouse so what's to stop this is a data center no this is a hospital no this is an imaging center you know that it all that does is enrich a bunch of lawyers and it uh doesn't help us solve what we need to do
which I think what we need to be doing is supporting our community and uh encouraging businesses that are conducting themselves in a way that's in balance with the community. So in balance with the infrastructure in
balance with the natural resources and so that's kind of the approach that I went. It sounds like um some of our speakers um were kind of in agreement with that which is like if
if we instead of just looking at uses it's intensity it's in it's scale. So yeah maybe like I mean these data centers we've heard like so there's phone data centers that are generally pretty small. I think those aren't using
probably hu like the the diesel back maybe they're using backup generators but >> yeah they pretty much all have backup generators but like our little pop that we have that's over on maple 54 Maple Tree um lane uses about the same as you running your oven if your oven or your
clothes dryer on that's the power it uses. >> So and I think I'm from >> we inject more than that in solar from our other buildings to more than make up for that. though. >> The one on Maple Tree in Stanh Hope. >> No, on Stanh Hope. Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Now, uh does it have a backup
generator? >> It does. Yeah. It has a 20 kilowatt, but we use only about 3 kilowatts. So, >> and and it only runs during an outage. Is that right? >> It runs once a month as an exercise. It runs just, you know, but for 15 minutes just to make sure that it works. So, when we need it, it's there. So,
>> right. So, none of none of your generators anywhere run full time then. Right. >> No, no, no. And I would definitely prohibit that. That should never be the case. >> I mean, unless the power is out, like you should design your facility to work with what grid power you can get. >> So, >> you said you have that's a 20 kilowatt.
>> It's a 20 kilowatt >> surface for >> how many? >> Well, we only use about three. So, we we have extra and just in case, you know, I don't know what the future may hold, but um that serves today and like 10,000 people, something like that. just just to kind of because I think scales
are important, numbers are important, and that's where I'd like to have this conversation if we could because this I think we have an opportunity here um to kind of correct some uh some recent decisions that were made
which were basically develop developed by ordinance uh which is what I think Andover tried to do with the data centers. First, they said, "We're going to allow this and we're going to open up the heights and we're going to basically intreat a developer to come into this particular parcel with this project and
cut out the public process from this, which it just creates a vacuum that only litigation is going to occupy. So, I don't want to be in that situation and Sparta is has learned that lesson hopefully. So I would rather put guard
rails in there, keep it high level and be use agnostic and just say what can we handle? What are we what are we happy with? So 20 kilowatts at your facility that's providing for say 10,000 customer >> 10,000 customers like I went a little
over on mine and I haven't connected everything but I think I have a 24 kilowatt generator. So I mean my single oneperson house generator is larger than that. So I just want to we can have a
conversation and have like a balanced um conversation that to kind of come up with something I think that would that would work a lot better. So I mean I guess I don't know if everyone's looked at the the two that you had um printed
out N for warehouse data center moratorium. The other thing is these moratoriums I don't think moratoriums are even allowed with New Jersey municipal land use law. So why are we even >> I I I don't know this was uh are they not I got from the uh
>> Yeah. Do you want to speak to that? >> No no I think they're not. I think they're allowed for like the very limited time of like I think either three or six months and then >> it can't be. So the point the point of the moratorum is to backfill regulation
I think or >> guidance for whatever your use is that makes sense to me but since we don't have a pending thing and since data centers are not a listed use and that's kind of what I'm saying um from my short
time on planning if it's not a listed use in any zone in Sparta then it's presumed prohibited already. We don't need to get sloppy and define it. we can just, you know, it would come in if someone had an application, they would have to go through and they'd have to on
their merits say this is why it's good, this is why it's not. And the public would have a voice. The public would be able to say this is this is a terrible idea. We don't want this. But I don't want the public to say, "Oh, I hear data center and it's bad."
>> Sure. >> There because there's a huge range that we've heard of what is a data center. So, I don't want to miss out on and and one of these, the Lowden County one, again, they're dealing with mitigation post construction on old technology. Um,
and they're basically just trying to make it do the best they can. Their taxes are extremely low, but the long-term health effects are unknown from, you know, a a very largecale um
complex. So, there's that. Um, so yeah, they're saying, you know, set your thresholds, say what you're willing to, you know, what you want to quantify. And so I kind of, for me, it's like no one
knows better than they know. I would like to refer to their experience, defer to their expertise in dealing with this, and come up with a way to craft this. >> Absolutely. uh these two uh model
resolutions. I I mentioned in the email this morning that um they were from the uh I had a a training class, one of the ANJ environmental commissioner training classes uh two weeks ago and the speaker
from was from the uh New Jersey environmental justice alliance and that's exactly what what these are meant to do is to define just define largecale um data centers based on >> specific to data spec well yeah
specifically data centers but um based on on water usage size and uh um energy >> usage number of servers and things like that which so I'd rather >> a large large number
>> I I also want to avoid a developer who might have a data center in mind saying why don't you like data centers that's just arbitrary and capriccious what what what's wrong with us Right. >> So, I think a a good way to potentially
steer us away from an litigation to lower our I could be wrong, lower our exposure to potential litigation is to keep it high level and say whatever the use is. I mean, we we have
a section in our code in chapter 18 in Sparta that says these are prohibited uses. So, we could put it right there, but uh and there are things in there, but those as we've seen the last couple years, they've switched. One of those
things is cannabis. It's it was a hot topic. First, it was because they wanted to opt out, I think. So, it was put in as prohibited use and then it was turned into uh it was taken out of there and then it was an allowed use and I think now it's back to prohibited. That's it's
silly. So get away from uses. We we see a lot of this and what is the stuff that matters? And I think it's what is this? Are they a good neighbor? Is this going to affect our long-term
health? Are they using all of our natural resources? If they're in balance with the community, then they deserve to have highest best use of their land, I think. And um the
other thing I was I was trying to remember but the webinar that that I did they kind of equated it to uh the rolling out of power throughout the United States and then the trains and they said you know a lot of towns were scared oh we don't want to bring in
these utilities we don't want to bring in the trains and that's a decision if if we don't have intelligent discourse at the beginning and say we should at least like let's frame it. Let's let's say what we want, what we
like about this. But if we just say no, we're missing out on it. So another town could get it. Another town could get it. And you know, and over that that site is less than five miles from where I live. So these are regional conversations we
should be having. We heard about, you know, regional master plan for Highlands conformance. You know, that's a question, too. But I I've read through your ordinance and thanks for >> you did >> well some of it.
>> Yeah. >> What I understand of it is a lot of legal ease but no thank you for the hard work you've done on this and it looks it looks pretty comprehensive to me and fair and >> so so it's an attempt to do exactly
that. It's an attempt to to put thresholds and numbers and metrics on any project irrespective of its use. Keep the use agnostic high level and just say
what can the town uh what's the carrying capacity of the land and if it exceeds it and even if it exceeds it then the applicant has to because we had this conversation about environmental impact statement. We have these, you know,
applications that we hear and we opine on, oh, maybe they could, you know, bank some of these these parking spots because maybe they're not going to use them all and it's better to have increased recharge or we don't want to
cut down all these trees. So, let's change this. So I'm trying to codify that in a series of basically like levers that I think we have a legal standing to at least we can certainly suggest that suggest it but it's uh
pretty detailed but it would be things like what are the short-term benefits the long-term benefits and it's essentially attempting to do a balancing test for a potential project potential applicant but rather than meeting them after they spent spent a huge amount of
money engineering what they thought was a slam dunk project and then we say oh we don't like this project well why don't we like it instead hey this is what we think we could still have the conversation where they're like well that's unreasonable like why can't I
have a bigger building or whatever and so you could still tweak this these are just these are numbers but they're rooted in uh specific metrics um best management practices whatever uh and there's engineering so this would
instead of just lay people up here which yeah we have like some local knowledge but I prefer to put the onus on the professionals our professionals that we choose to say specify all these things quantify the
impact on our local and even maybe regional um land and let's see if we can accept this for an applicant. And if we can't, it's almost like a it's how we would normally condition
things with planning approvals or zoning. Like you set a series of conditions, but rather than just come up with a set of conditions on the fly that are not going to say arbitrary and capriccious, but they're like kind of
where did that number come from? We don't like it. I'd rather start with something that is rooted in municipal land use or best management or NJD and go from there. So then if we are sued,
we can say, well, this is where we came up with that number, >> you know. So, but it's a lot. It's 10 pages. >> Yes. And it's >> I like the I like the approach of the use focus on the use versus on the just
the data center only because yeah we can we can target more projects and we can target we spoke about the water bottling uh ordinance right so we can target more projects that way and the negative impacts that we are basically are you
know want to avoid the impacts and the uh Yeah. So I like I like the approach of the use more than just let's do the data center ordinance. >> Yeah. >> Because it it's a it's a dense not so
it's heavy. It's a dense ordinance or uh you know set of suggestions but but that's just it is if it's high level we could potentially apply it to most you know uh potential applications
that we would see uh and it would filter them rather than we have to reinvent the wheel every single time which is right sloppy. It's costly with our professionals if we're trying to be um fiscally responsible.
It it it's whack-a-ole. So, this is the other thing. Developers are going to be developers are developers, right? So, I see uses we're going to come up with a use name, a label, put a label to it. Fine. However you want. Like maybe we can magically figure out how to thread
the needle with oh it's the hypers scale data center but it doesn't touch these utility data centers that we rely on every day even if we don't realize it. So we thread that needle and then some developer I guarantee in five years, two years, six months, whatever is going to
say, "Oh, this isn't a hypers scale data center. This is like a mega scale data center and it's got helium balloons with, you know, Wi-Fi, whatever it has. We've addressed that by keeping it high level. We don't have to craft yet
another ordinance, put another name to it. We just say we don't care what it is. this is what we care about. >> So, >> yeah. And the standards, the environmental performance standards that you put in section 8. >> Yeah,
>> that's that's pretty good as well. and the whole review and the like the environmental assessment review by the professionals >> we ch so yeah we have experience with >> you can h you can have professionals and
you can read data certain ways and so this >> is not going to question a licensed professional but it's simply going to give the town and it >> force transparency for the residents of the town that the officials and the
professionals are working on behalf of to say this engineer works for us. They've reviewed this. This is what they think. And then the public gets to weigh in and say, I don't, you know, show me. And the show me is the cost borne for
all of that is on the applicant. So maybe an applicant's going to say, you know what, this is too much. I like it doesn't make sense for me. But maybe that at least they have a conversation and they say, "Oh, I I see
what you're concerned about. Let me like let's have an indepth public forum and I'll I'll attack all of these and maybe we get some great use, you know, but but I think we've seen in
Sparta and now Andover has seen it uh spot zoning or developing by ordinance. It's sloppy. It does assume that the leadership and the leadership is always changing. So it assumes that the leadership knows better than than
the constituents they serve and that's that's not fair. Uh and it's stupid. So in this way it just puts it all in numbers, puts it all in math and if someone wants to tweak this
um they can do that. But also, when you put a use as prohibited, kind of like I was saying, you can just as easily make it allowed. So, I think that's sloppy too. But if we put in if we put in like a rigorous
checks and balances filter, um it it helps us have a process driven planning and zoning um process, which right now we don't really have. I mean, I I saw small businesses get denied
because, oh, we never contemplate this. Of course, you didn't contemplate it. It didn't exist 50 years ago when these zone descriptions were written. So then it's asking the governing body, could you add this use to this zone? Could you add
this use to this zone? Every time that costs money, >> right? >> And every time a small business owner is like, I don't understand. I'm I'm paying rent every single month and I'm waiting to get an approval but I can't get approval because and you know then the
approval can't be given from say minor site plan subcommittee let's say um who can't grant waivers. So I'm not getting a field here because if we had something like this we could actually work it the other way and say yeah we're not concerned about this. We're not
concerned about say a gym in um a small village area because as long as the intensity is specified that everyone knows that the village area is not going to have like a >> or a yoga center or a
>> Yeah. But it's not have like a 300 person planet fitness. That's not the intent. So, or we're going to create like a boutique gym uh term, pay the planner, pay an engineer to scope all that out. That's >> that's just a good timing for doing the
master plan. >> Yes. Yeah. >> And and the >> that's the pitch. So, you take this. It's you know >> the u the master plan subcommittee has been >> thinking about this. >> Okay. Well, so >> there you go. You can read 10 pages and
then >> Alex, you can look at this in terms of the botting bottling plant because this would absolutely >> address that. And I was reading something lime crest. Sorry, the bottling. Do you know how that works with lime crust and Okay,
>> that's the pure va. >> Well, it came up with that. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What came up on that discussion was uh Limerest is pulling a bunch of water, but don't they have a license to pull? >> Okay. >> Find out. But that's going to come up.
So So Pure Vita as an Andover water bottling uh proposal that's coming for Andover. And so we had these conversations. >> We should be thinking regional scale. Even if we're not part of the regional master plan, we should be thinking if we
had a hypers scale facility here that was 600,000 square feet, Andover is going to notice that other our neighbors are going to notice that. So >> and same with the studies or assessments if this will will ever go through if
they drowning the water in Andover of course it's going to impact us if it's >> just a mile away. >> Yeah. >> From the aquifer. So we have to they like those studies they have to look into regional and you know make sure that it's not
just the sparta specific studies. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. And u we can also work with a planner uh on this.
>> Yeah. So >> I had asked the question on planning board. Why is it that you guys don't look at because some townships and municipalities apparently do look at like an intensity or scale based
um metric system for uh applications. But the classic majority is just oh they're listed uses. So I said why why don't you do that? It seems like it would make sense. And uh so I was asked
like oh if you're working on something could we see it? But I wanted you know this environmental commission if you guys could take a look at it and see if things look weird or wrong or like oh that's you're asking a lot. keep in
mind, you know, like it's it's not about being overly, you know, it's not not in my backyard, whatever. It's mitigating potential negative criteria and it's making sure that whatever
applications come forward, we're balancing the potential negative criteria. Um, so that's that's the intent of it >> and it would have been helpful to have something like this on the books when uh recent applications came forward a couple years ago.
>> Yeah. >> Well, thank you and thank you very much, Mr. Bole. >> Happy to be of service. >> Yes. Thank you. We have we have no intention of trying to regulate small data centers here. So
>> yeah, I mean technically we don't even call it a data center. We call it a POP but according to that definition it's a data center. So >> yeah, >> but you call it a what? >> A pop point of presence. >> Oh >> yeah. And so like and then like the phone company calls it a remote and then the cable company calls it a headend. So
we don't even call them data centers but according to that definition they're data centers. So, >> okay. >> The rest of the public want to say anything? You guys have any retorts or responses or no?
>> Appreciate it. >> I I just want to add something on u the recycling of of food waste. I absolutely object to it ever being outside. it. We have too many wild animals here
in Sparta. We can't cannot consider it even for a minute. I know that in New York City they have mandatory recycling of all food waste. It isn't up to the homeowner. There is my my
daughter and son-in-law live in Queens. They have on their counter a container with a lid that they put their food waste in and there is a designated place that they deliver it to and that is that
and um the the city maintains the right to go through anybody's trash and if they find the waste there's a fine. So that that's how they enforce it. But it is not it cannot be left outside. It's
too dangerous. I am I must tell you my trash is picked up at 7:00 in the morning and I missed it today because I can't leave my can out the night before. A bear will get it for sure. It's not
even a it it's I can't take the chance because I know that it's going to happen. We have raccoons. We have all kinds of animals here. So, you can't ever say outside re um compost. You don't compost
outside. >> Compost is different. If you compost, right, you're mixing the greens with the browns and it actually I'm experienced with this because I've been doing it for for several years now. Uh that
the animals don't bother it because it's mixed in with the browns and they don't find it appetizing. I might get a deer snooping around once in a while, but nothing. And I I don't >> Oh, you put dirt on top of it right away. >> The the the brown stuff like leaves and
dirt and and and mix it together and and turn it frequently. >> Oh, okay. Well, I don't know if many residents would be as caring and and devote the time. That's that's why uh we're talking about
I was talking about in havingformational sessions and training and uh >> right and you have to to purchase the equipment. It's isn't a bunch of drawers and things that you >> there there are different kinds there there's like the rotating drums. Uh, I
just have an open circle that uh um is is a low loweffort uh operation, but it works. >> I have no information about that. >> And uh but that sounds feasible, but I
will say if you just put the waste out there and you don't mix it with dirt or you don't do anything, you're going to have animals galore, >> right? If you have something appetizing like you def definitely not um uh animal products.
>> No meat. >> You can't compost those. >> That's that's why last year they had the uh they were giving away the the at DPW they were giving away the bare proof garbage cans >> only to select people.
>> Get one. >> No, you could go. No, you knew about it. >> No, I I did know about it. They only had a finite amount of them. was >> I was told I couldn't get it in my neighborhood. There's certain neighborhoods they're giving it and certain neighborhoods they aren't.
>> We're talking about environmental or we were talking about, you know, disenfranchised subcommunities. This is We didn't get it. >> All people are equal, but some are more equal than others. >> Yeah. >> I didn't get the notice. I just went and asked. >> So, did you got one? Oh, well.
>> Where did you go to DPW? Where you mean on Wilson Drive? >> She's on the council though. >> I didn't know that. They didn't know that. >> I I have one of those drum things and just throw everything in it and you just rotate it every couple days and you have
beautiful top soil like a month later. >> Right. >> They work well. >> And the we have bear everywhere in our backyard all the time and raccoons everywhere and they don't ever bother the compost thing. So >> you have the right thing.
>> So that's what people have to find out. What is the right thing? I've seen things with drawers and I didn't know how the >> See, this is exactly it. You said composting is not a good idea. Data science is not a good once we find out a little bit more detail, we're like, "Oh, okay. That that might be okay."
>> Oh, well, I I did not know that you could prevent animals from going to it. >> I didn't either. steel and glass reinforced um um what is it? It's glass reinforced nylon on the ends and just a steel thing. It's got
like a little little clamps and you just throw literally just throw everything in it. Close it up, close the clamps, turn them and close it and just rotate it every couple days. >> Is it hard to rotate? >> No. Has a big handle on the side. >> And it's geared so it's it's it's very
little effort. >> Oh, okay. Well, this is something we we should all find out about and uh because the you know the only ones I had heard of is the the ones that you put it out and and animals can get
to it. >> I can't put out my trash more than 30 or 40 minutes before they >> Well, that's what I have to do. >> Bear will take it and drag it into the woods. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> You just have to get up so early to do it. It's
Thank you. Vivian, stay tuned on that uh backyard composting information. Um great. So, what's our next step with this? Um >> well, you guys see if you can read
through it. Mhm. >> Um, if you can uh see see if you know >> I've done hundreds of versions of this, I think at this point. Um, so some
sometimes I would miss things. So the things that that I identified were sound, vibration, air, water, light, >> energy, >> energy, >> traffic. Yeah. Traffic and normally like
planning you can't you can't regulate um off-site traffic but I I I think there's like that level of service if there's a degradation level of service. The other thing was um there's some like conversation about
bonds uh which I don't know how that works but um getting like a maintenance bond. I mean some of these things we're considering like uh you have a heavy vehicle like so if you had a warehouse use you might have a
lot of vehicular traffic that's going to add to your your traffic and and lower the level of service probably for certain intersections but it also might degrade your road roadways faster. But if you could mitigate that by getting,
you know, a maintenance bond on the roads or balancing that somewhere, I I think there's, you know, there's more there's better way to uh hear these applications versus just being like
no to data centers, no to composting, like learn a little bit more and let's because The reality is and what what we heard in Andover is, you know, I when I identified myself from Sparta, they
said, "Oh, Sparta, you're your finances are atrocious. You guys have a real problem. What are you going to do about it?" But the reality is that, you know, everyone's going to be dealing with high health care costs. Um, and >> a lot of them are dealing with >> Yeah. And there's there's a lot more
people that move since co and so >> the reality is more people more cost for schools more expensive uh for all those employees. So we do need to be mindful
of like ratables. So I think rather than just say no development or all development, we say smart development. And the time to do it is now when we're working on our master plan. It's not to cave to a group of people that are just
saying, "Oh, we don't like this use." Like, I appreciate that people showed up, but they need to show up at every meeting. They need to be aware and they need to work with, you know, it's probably unpopular. Um hopefully they don't find me, but they need they need
to work work with the people that are um like trying to close budget gaps and come up with because As I as I told uh the people in Andover, um it's great that you got what you
wanted, but there's still I believe an approval for a 650,000 square foot warehouse on that site. And so I do think that people are trying to do the right thing. I think the right thing is to let the public be involved
in all aspects of a project. But I think there they saw it as a bunch of trucks with a huge warehouse and a lot of noise. What's the difference between that same size building and it could be quiet? But they didn't backfill any kind
of regulatory framework and then they were like, "Oops." Then they tried to do that. So, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and but I I think that we can learn from that and I think we could do our own thing and then if we do a really
good job in dialing in what we can live with then maybe my hope would be that we can tell people you don't have to just like ban all this stuff. This might actually be a better way of dealing with all of this because development's going to come whether you
like it or not. and and our public officials are going to change no matter what. So we can have this fight now, we can have it in five years, 10 years because people are going to be trying to you they're going to be listening to developers that say we can fix your budget and that's the end of
it. But I'm going to say you can fix my budget shortterm, but am I going to be dying from some long-term illness from these negative externalities? So, I would rather have that conversation at the beginning, protect myself, my
family, future generations, and say what I want and figure out if we can get that. Okay. >> Yep. >> So, >> thank you. All right. >> I make a motion to curtail myself a second.
>> Thank you. >> All right, then. Um, anything else? Um, >> motion. >> Anybody else have anything? >> I'd like to thank Mr. Bole for giving us valuable insight and
>> two members of the public for speaking. >> Kathy and Vivian, thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> Kathy, can you spell your last mask? >> I know how to spell it. >> I bet you I can spell it. >> I think we all could. >> Thank you.
Yes. >> All right. >> Make a motion to >> if unless anyone has anything else. Can I have a motion to adjurnn? >> Make that motion. >> I have a second. >> I'll second.
>> All in favor? >> I >> I >> thank you.journed turned at 8:49.