evening everybody I'd like to call the executive session of the sporta planning board to order um by reading a resolution of the planning board uh executive session resolution number 2025-the 8 of the open public meetings act
chapter 231 Public Law 1975 permits the exclusion of the public from a meeting in certain circumstances and whereas this public body is of the opinion that such circumstances presently exist now therefore be it resolved by the planning board of the township of Sparta County
of Sussex state of New Jersey as follows the public shall be excluded from discussions of an action upon the here and after specific subject matters the general nature of the subject matter to be discussed is as follows contract negotiations it is anticipated at this
time that the above stated subject matter will be made public when deemed appropriate the resolution shall take effect immediately do I make a motion to go into executive session would somebody like to make the motion I'll make a motion to go into executive session
second all in favor I I I we have Rob aut on the phone he's ill but he's joining us hey Rob feel better all right so what e e
e e e e e e e e e e
e e e e oh no I guess we could do it okay we're live all right uh we have a motion to go out of executive session please a
motion all in favor I I all right thank you very much appreciate you coming thank you gave us a lot to think thank you yes no you got to do a lunch just going to give out a little
homework here thank you that's good idea just go down two pieces okay [Music] yeah you I'm working still trying to work a DE it's so
busy where you wor there's no test I want I wanted lessons the only lesson I can get was Friday at 5 o' which is able but they've got leak starting up so I may have to go somewhere else I'm I'm
going to go back talk to the guy but uh that's what I get for w that works okay yeah thank you how's it going Cory Catherine
I hi Cory I'm Rob Bley sir good see you okay thank you for waiting everybody oh unbelievable yeah good evening everybody and thank you for your patience with us on behalf of the members of the planning board and our professionals I would like
to welcome you T to tonight's meeting of Sparta Township planning board this meeting is being held on March 5th 2025 at the sparta Township Municipal Building located at 65 Main Street in Sparta proceedings of the meeting are
being live streamed on YouTube at www.youtube.com Sparta WP the time is now 7:19 and this meeting is now called to order please note that no new business will be conducted after 9:30 p.m. and the session will end at 10:00
please stand and join the board as we proudly pledge our nation's flag to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic whichs one nation under indivisible with liberty and justice for
all Dory would you do a roll call please yes ma'am Janette Burke here Bernie ragad here Brian Zimmerman here day here chairwoman Joan Ferman here councilman Mark Scott here Robert blee here Vice chairman Robert
Otto Le luano and Christine Dunbar thank you um we're going to move around our agenda a little bit um because uh we have a land use training session but I know we took some time in the beginning uh with our executive
session so we we move that till after we hear the application from uh green LLC but I would like to yes sorry sorry I don't see a live stream I just W to double check that on your end okay you
have to switch to the other there's two that are set you're on the wrong one okay thanks you're welcome is he still on the phone though yeah here okay I didn't realize there was two
good mistakenly correct okay um the other thing I would like to change around is um one of the resolutions uh I'd like to introduce Mr Kenneth porro uh who is our new planning board attorney we're very lucky to have him he comes with more than 30 years of
experience in land use and has represented multiple planning boards zoning boards uh special tax appeal Council Municipal Council and he's written numerous legal articles and um as I said later he's going he's offered
to serve um to give a training session for us he's served as a trainer for the state of New Jersey teaching the required Planning and Zoning Board courses uh for all new volunteer members and uh so we have the benefit of that coming up later but just to formalize
everything I'd like to take that resolution for uh Ken we uh did vote him in at the last meeting and I just like to memorialize it so as we go forward um that's all in place so if somebody would please make a motion for uh resolution
25 AO yeah and chairwoman Joan Ferman yes thank you congratulations and welcome thank you thank you okay all right so next we'll have our public hearing which is uh planning board number 24- 727 the
green 973 LLC if you would please come up and uh introduce yourselves and our attorney will swear you in Jo I gota recuse I think s does okay just make sure one two three four rob you have to
you stay on the phone we need you as a quorum members just uh for the record uh your recusal is based upon I've got some invol with Ernie Ernie just quick uh you're you're conflict your recusal you have is a low
standard but just I'm the president of the SP he's on on the board and we also hold our meetings at season in his facility so that's a good enough that's a good enough so you're in cahoots thank
you okay chairman would you like us to use these microphones yes please we need them to so that the live stream can pick it up okay oh there we go uh good evening Madam chairwoman members of the board my name is David
Gray gr a y I'm an attorney I have a law firm called the gray Law Group it's on Route 15 in Jefferson Township and I'm the attorney for the applicant which is the green 973
LLC this applicant this company has two owners John trada is here sitting to my left and uh frankly is a little more comfortable with public speaking so he will uh kind of present on behalf of the applicant but the other owner of the
company Patrick mccurnin is here sitting behind us Patrick is waving a hello uh and he's here as well of course to contribute and to answer any questions as well that the board might have can you just spell the last name so I can make sure spell yes trata is uh so first
name is John J N last name trata t r o TTA and John is here next to me Patrick mccaran Capital MC k r n n thank
you Jason Dunn is our planner he's from dyra and uh we'll be testifying as well uh and again my name is David Gray and I understand my speaking just as a summary is not sworn testimony but just to give you a
little bit of background of what you're going to hear and what this application is about uh the green 973 operates uh over a 10 Park Lake Road and there's a building it had two tenants in it at 10 Park Lake Road the
interior space is a little bit more than 8,000 square ft the green 973 currently rents a little more than 5,000 square ft of that space and in this space uh they have seven golf simulators we'll call
them bays and uh they offer indoor it's technically indoor commercial recreation is the use uh this is in the economic development Zone and
uh what they do is they offer this uh they offer these bit to the Public Public can make reservations you'll hear more about this but these guys are technologically advanced much more than me but you reserve space for a bay online I guess
you could do it on the telephone but most people do it online you have to reserve your space uh and a bay will accommodate four people they have a maximum of four hours of time and you can go to the bay and and you bring your clubs and you can hit a golf ball into
the screen and and it tells you if you're like me how bad you are at playing golf but it's a supplement to you know your golf game you'll hear a little bit about one of the Bays uh has not just the ability to hit the golf ball into the screen and and they'll
tell you how you know you have all the different golf courses in the world on it and all that good stuff but one of the Bays has uh some other games on it uh that that can be played as well um and that comes in handy when skark comes
and and uses the facility and they have some other local nonprofits that come and maybe not everybody wants to play golf but what the business is at the heart of it it's it's a golf simulation
uh Service uh there is a counter for like for lack of a better word a pro shop where they sell some golf accessories somebody needs a golf glove or something um so there's a little bit of sales there but that's just an
accessory thing for the people playing golf and the way it operates is a bit little bit of a common area Seven Bays they have four hours of time then they leave new people come in uh and you block out your time online uh so what happened is the
neighboring tenant was a computer did something with maybe uh doing something with computer uh product but he left is no longer a tenant and uh the opportunity came up for these guys to
take over that space and they made a business decision for various reasons which you'll hear about that it would make sense for their business to do that and I would note that their business on March 11 or two successful years in business as of March 11 here in Sparta
uh and uh you'll hear a little bit more about how the space intends to be used you'll hear a lot more about about the parking and the parking situation uh from both uh the owners of the business and the planner so that's a
little bit about what you're going to hear tonight and at this time I would ask that uh Mr trada perhaps be sworn in and we can get going with his uh testimony TR to raise your right hand you saw me so swear to tell the truth whole truth of nothing but the truth so
do uh St your name and business address for the record uh my name is John Trot j n t TTA and our businesses located at 10 Park Lake Road in Sparta New Jersey and John just to move uh things along you heard the introduction that uh Mr Gray
gave uh here today yes uh can you affirm that that test testimony if he was to ask you those questions you would answer them exactly as he presented it yes I will okay thank you councelor thank you very much sir uh and just speak into this because people are listening online
uh Mr TR where do you live sir so I I live in uh Sparta New Jersey right at the top ofal Glen and and you're an owner of uh the green 973 LLC yes I am okay and and that's a business that started two years ago here in Sparta nearly to the date next next week oh
March 11 right March 11 okay and we're we're March five now uh can you uh uh explain a little bit about uh what the business is what it provides uh to customers so this um technology overall
has advanced so much throughout covid especially and golf was one of the sports that has seen a tremendous amount of growth due to the lockdown and all the parameters around that shutdown so throughout that time golf simulator businesses started popping up throughout
the country and as an advoc offer myself and as I met Patrick throughout the last several years we actually ended up having the same idea of opening this indoor golf facility uh I grew up in Vernon so I'm a local guy uh I went to Sussex Tech so right down the road and there was always a local driveing range
right around the corner and that's where I learned my game in high school I continued to play in college and this business offers a safe community and environment for golfers of all skill levels to come in and hit real golf balls so it's not gimmicky by any sense
in terms of hitting foam balls like I used to do in my yard when growing up uh or like little Whiffle balls so you're actually hitting real golf balls in the simulator in a 15x 15 Bay uh we only allow one golfer per shot and swing inside that
bay just of course due to safety reasons and as you hit this golf ball there's a camera system overhead that is pretty much reading via camera based system and telling you everything you wanted to know about that golf shot so the spin on it where it's going to go left or right
um it it gives you a lot of valuable data that as a golfer you can use to improve your game um and even for the newer golfers who are a little bit more afraid to go out into the course or into a driving range which really there aren't many close ones nearby um it just
that business offers a controlled setting to play golf inside regardless of the weather and Mr tra I know you uh operate the business with Patrick McCaron can you explain to the board a little bit about your role versus Patrick's role and how the business is
operated yeah it ended up actually being really great ying and yang um I run a marketing agency so it's all remote um most of the business small to mediumsized businesses that I support uh is you know they're just looking for online marketing and systems to support
lead generation to drive business in of course more Revenue so my role coming in with that experience over the last 10 11 years um was definitely vital for such a social-based um Sport and Social based business so within our partnership
Patrick he um he owns a couple storefront businesses so he has the more experience from an operational standpoint I I don't have any really employees in my business however he does have uh you know tons of scheduling to do lots of jobs to send people to so he brings in that that side of the
partnership there so we really do compliment everyone uh I unfortunately get labeled as the the tech guy so um that that's my role in this business okay can you explain how many employees company has and how they work yeah so we
have uh six to eight part-time employees um and there's a range because several of them are uh local students whether they go to sporta high school or any nearby local school and with sports coming in especially for instance one of our employees is on the ski team so he's not going to be around during the winter
time so it will fluctuate between part-time uh those six to eight employees and Patrick does all the scheduling for them we do it on a weekly basis since we try to offer some flexibility for our p part- timr and um they scheduled in anywhere between 4 to
6 hour shifts um during the the peak times that we have naturally weekends are a little bit busier just because everyone's not working during the day uh most people are not working during the day so sometimes we staff two people on at at a time but most cases there always
only one staff member on site okay and uh Mr trada how did it come about that this space opened and and and what's the business uh discussion that you have and the reasons behind wanting to expand your business into the neighboring spot
so we we had a really great relationship with our neighbor it was one single guy um just working with computer hardware systems and we developed that relation back and forth and stayed in touch with him even after he left but he had indicated that he was going to be leaving um he just didn't need a space
that size um and so we knew immediately that we wanted to expand into that additional spot next to us just because honestly uh just because we didn't really want another business to go in there um we needed the space and as we were talking about the structure and
what sort of offerings that we were looking to do um we found especially during our winter season is Prime season uh naturally everybody's inside unless you have the luxury of being able to travel to Florida and play golf most people are going to be sticking around stuck inside and not going to be able to
swing so we found that our common waiting area t to have some congestion and like David mentioned before um we have four players maximum per Bay um on average most of our bookings and res reservations are two to three golfers
only we rarely do actually see full four sums come through um and with those Seven Bays there may be some during the turnover of reservations since we control the schedule we know who's coming in um let's say at 600 p.m. there's four bay starting we noticed
that there was some conest gestion um within our our little waiting area that we had so as we looked at that opportunity next door um we realized there's some additional space that we can help spread out some of that congestion and the reason why it gets so crowded uh some people come in with some
monstrous golf bags um even the slim bags that you'll see if you're if you're carrying them at you know when you're playing outside they they still take up a lot of space so as we looked at that next door space we just really wanted to extend our common waiting area um
additionally uh we did we do have small little Pro Shop in our lobby area at the at the front entrance and that additional space will also help us expand that expand our club offerings we do have some Club sales coming through our our facility so looking at it and
seeing that opportunity open up to be able to take advantage of it and help produce obviously more revenue for us and expand more opportunities we really just wanted to improve customer experience and customer value as well Mr tra are you intending on adding any
additional Bays inside um your your space no no we're not uh is there any intention on uh expanding your current marketing or how you put your business out to the public nope uh we just would like to continue to have golfers come in
to use our Bay so there would be no change on the marketing side so so what your testimony is that there's really no change in the use of what you're doing or how your business operates now it's really expanding the common area to accommodate you know working around
people's golf bags and whatnot yes correct and also I guess you said to block out maybe another tenant coming in that might use up more things like parking spots yes correct okay uh and I want to I want to focus a little bit on the parking uh situation uh we reviewed
uh Mr Simmons's letter and uh I know we reviewed this there's an ordinance that has a calculation that says based on a calculation you should have 11.2 spaces do you know how many spaces you have right now uh I believe it was about 30 you have 30 spaces right
now right and uh but the ordinance also says that you need to have 50 spaces but you don't have 50 spaces do you no we don't okay um how has the parking been in general at your facility so far the parking has been pretty pretty good I
think for our customers um when we look at the the bay usage and how many people we'd have at any given time since we only ma allow Max of four players per Bay with Seven Bays we're only looking about 28 players so they it may get a little busy at the time of like I said
that turnover between reservations but from our business standpoint it's all about utilization so at the on average we're looking only about 60% utilization of the bay throughout the the year so it's never really going to be filled at
any given point he Mr TR are you on site uh at the location often yes yeah I I'm there every morning um I drop my daughter off at school over at Augsburg and I drive over to um to I move my office over to the green so I'm usually
there between anywhere 8:30 to 2 8:30 to 3 when uh when it's time for me to unload my daughter from my mother-in-law or parents have you ever seen the parking spaces filled up uh only at the time like I said we're all seven days
were filled at one time and we do have some leagues um especially with the women's league gets a little busy sometimes at that night but as soon as that turnover completes within our goal is to get people playing as quickly as possible so we really don't force
anybody out but we do make that shift very quickly so only for that 5 to 10 minute turnover period Then it alleviates and I I don't usually see those filled at all got it can you can you give a little bit of testimony about the groups that come in because I said in my testimony you have
you know Sparta high schoolers and some other groups can you just briefly explain who your customers are that may use the business yeah um we uh aside from golfers um The Weekend Warriors or fatherson groups mother daughter groups
coming in to to enjoy an hour or two at our facility we recently partnered with skark so skark comes in on a consistent basis they'll uh they'll bring their bus their long their short bus into our parking lot um with several AIDS and all of our bays
are handicap accessible and especially like David mentioned one our base seven has a multisport function so they really like some of the non-golf games that they could participate in and with that being said we also have partnered with piece by piece um and just recently had
Sparta High School a group of Sparta High School students come in enjoy our facility as well um with some of the the teachers and AIDS from Sparta so um we just look to try to expand those Partnerships our main goal was just to build a community golf is a a lifelong
sport um it's not it's one that we hope to enjoy from you know when you're young in high school college you know when you have your own kids and then when you retire they're having their own kids my goal is to continue to play golf and that's kind of what we would try to Foster got it and and Mr TR just to
confirm and we did submit a document with the application but you have the landlord's approval to be making this application yes yep we do and in fact you already had negotiated a lease and whatnot yes yeah we're we're just waiting for uh the approval process to go through and we're
we're ready to go okay uh couple of specific questions that I'm going to ask you to testify about was mentioned in Mr Simmons's report uh and addresses some legal issues in the town's ordinances uh the town has a requirement
or discusses in a portion of the ordinance about a loading dock uh does your business require any type loading dock no no it doesn't do you use a loading dock at this time no we don't okay uh do you intend to change any of the exterior lighting or anything about
the lighting no we do not uh you're you're a tenant and you have a lease now right correct do you maintain the Landscaping at all you do the mowing the lawn and maintaining of the snow removal or anything like that no we don't uh do you intend on uh changing any of the Landscaping is that part of your
proposal no we don't um and uh right now there's signage for your business right correct are you're making an application to change any of the signage at this time no we're not okay um and again can you just uh maybe
briefly explain the what the interior would look like with the understanding you have to comply with any construction permits and uh permitting requirements but can you briefly explain what that common area you're going to use it as what that would look like sure um so to
to kind of give some context about our current facility it's a wide open space um and then we have our individual Bays um throughout the 5,000 square fet kind of set up in a square our goal was always to try to keep an open floor format so we don't want anyone feel
cramped especially when you're swinging golf clubs you do need some space to be able to do that and like I mentioned before we do need space for gear bags everything that people are bringing in to play golf so to look next door we're looking to Mir that same concept so just
keeping everything open we're not looking to change anything structurally and again to to expand that common and waiting area even if it's um you know a father or mother who's waiting for her son to finish their lesson with one of our our Pros um just to be able to keep
everyone comfortable so it's going to be nice and open we're not going to be changing anything structurally in the building and we're just looking to try to keep uh comfortable seating we have high top tables now um just to offer you know a waai area for everyone to either wait for their tea time to come up and
or to transition out and head on home Mr TR I'm going to ask you a question about a little bit of a specific technicality it was mentioned in uh Mr Simmons's report and that is the percentage of the
property that is uh impervious coverage and uh what we've learned since uh getting involved in this is that it appears the building was approved perhaps back in the day with 40% uh impervious coverage but we've now
learned that it's actually in real life now that we look at it 40.1% right correct and uh that's over the 40% cap that we're looking to do right yes so uh our proposal and I I
need you to testify about this is to uh if necessary uh take out a parking space and re remove the asphalt and replace it with a type of paver that is permeable in nature and that would get you down to the 40% is that right yes correct and
and did you discuss with Patrick about like which spot you would use and what makes the most sense yes we have okay and you're prepared to do that correct if the board finds it necessary for you to do that yes okay um but would you like to ask the board maybe for an
exception to that requirement yes at this moment um I mean our parking is obviously important so having to to rip up a spot would not would be less than ideal but um I would ask the board to to consider an exception to that otherwise we are as David and I
confirmed with them uh we're prepared to make any changes necessary okay and I just want to hit on one more point you testified about it but I want to make sure it's clear and that is the the ability that you have to control your customer's traffic inside your building
okay because that is a unique ability that a business has uh and how your online reservation system allows you to control the you know foot traffic inside your your building can you just explain how that online reservation system
allows you to control the the traffic if you will at your business yes absolutely so um just easily through our website you can go on and take a look at what bay several Bays have different seating compared to the others uh whether you want lounge or couch seating we have two bays that accommodate that otherwi wise
others have um high top tables in a custom counter that were built to accommodate you know up to four players per Bay and at that point you're able to look and see what's available select how many uh how many hours you would like to visit us and confirm payment we do
require payment before everyone comes in so we do know exactly who's coming in we have about a a 99% show rate so we know exactly and can control um especially you know if there's any support maintenance things that we have to take take care of we can also actually shut
down bays and availability too to accommodate that so looking at the the overall system it's a very easy front and customer um and guest experience to quickly pick the bay that they would like how many hours they would like to come for and hit confirm and pay and
from our side we receive notification of that our staff has access to that scheduling system at all times so whether if someone is not comfortable doing it online we do accept phone reservations as well but it is a requirement for everyone to come in to have a reservation before playing
participating in our our facility great Mr tra I don't have any other questions for you at this time is there anything you would like to add uh to the board at this time uh I don't think so I I'm just happy to talk about my business I love it um and it was very fortunate that
Patrick and I um we we met through a local charity it's SP of benevolence society and we just happened to have the same idea and decided to partner up and two years later where we're going to be celebrating our 2-year anniversary we also just opened up our second location in rosand and we just look to continue
to offer the best customer and indoor golf experience thank you John thank you very much thank you everyone uh at this time uh if it's uh if it's okay with you madam chairwoman I would ask that uh Jason Dunn come uh come up to the table uh he is our
planner can we do questions first of course I didn't know how you wanted to alert of course you can like to go to our professionals just to follow up with their reports and see if they have any additional questions maybe grab um the one up there thank you so just a few questions um I'm not
sure we heard um what the the overall business hours are oh so Monday through uh Monday through Friday we open up at 9:00 a.m. Saturday Sundays we open at 8 a.m. and then Monday through Wednesday
we're open till 8:00 p.m. Thursday Friday Saturday we're open till 10 p.m. and then Sundays we close at 6 pm. thank you and you mentioned um that you have some slower months obviously the winter is more popular um would you say that there's a drastic
um change in like the frequency of customers that you have in any season yes absolutely and which which is the busiest season is winter yeah so we consider our our in season or indoor golf season um between October to the end of
April okay I I believe that your attorney had opened up um and Mr gr mentioned that there are five existing Bays so we we have Seven Bays you have seven existing Bays okay I just wanted to clarify that so it's seven and it's not changing from
Seven corre thank you um it was a little difficult without architectural plans and I think you did a de a good job of describing kind of some of the changes that you're going to expand the lobby area um is there anything right now that divides the two tenant spaces yes there is is it a demising wall or a structur
wall it's a non-load bearing wall okay so would you be removing that wall to in order to open it up no we won't okay um so you're just making modifications to the existing Lobby yeah we're just going to essentially the way we were thinking about the flow since most of our inbound reservations
coming in they'll say we have uh four screens four big TVs on the wall so we just have those high top tables for those new guests coming in to sit and wait until their T time comes up um we would move and process that out where they would end up waiting next door
essentially almost having like a like an airport system where we have different sections in that that can load onto the the the plane okay so we would follow that same process okay and there's no um like food service or anything or cafeteria service in that area correct thank you um you mentioned that there's
kind of a a five to 10 minute turnover I guess that's built into your scheduling system yes and that is adequate right now to handle the capacity you have oh yes absolutely okay and do you often see that that that that turnover creates any
kind of parking issues no I do okay um You' mentioned that there's no need for a loading space do you have any kind of reg deliveries no we don't um and for like the Pro Shop it is it just there's a the regular size Amazon boxes majority of our frequent deliveries are just
cleaning supplies okay um you you mentioned um some kind of um different groups and different um kind of clientele coming in for different length sessions do you have like a typical session or is it really whatever someone books out online like they can book as
long as they want they they can a maximum of 4 hours I would say our average is about 2 hours unlike outside outside golf which honestly at this point it's taking over six hours to play around a golf um majority of our players that come in we
have several leagues that are individual or team two based those are the most popular crowds that we have or groups that we have coming in okay um I only had one other question I might save it for your planner if you can't answer it but um I just kind of noticed and it was a little difficult without the architectural plans but there are two
separate parking areas um the one barking area to the West um shows kind of a a sidewalk entrance into the building and and like a main entrance way yes yes that's our main entrance the other side um it's really hard to tell if there is an entryway
door on that side yes yes we did there is an entryway and public can or you know your customers can access that side it's not private okay perfect um I have no other questions for this wi is thank you thank you well for the engineering side um actually the board planner covered a lot
of the questions I had you know actually for your operations the only thing that I was stuck on a little bit was a Seven Bays you're only Seven Bays existing and Seven Bays proposed correct correct okay so how did and then without architecturals we it is hard to understand how they getting from one
side to the other so the the entrances are literally right next door to each other so they got go outside and back in to the other side correct yeah okay you're not going to be opening up a wall inside to no okay all right and then the so you're
not expanding the operation other than spacewise yes correct and then you said basically four players per Bay typically Max two to three max of four players typically it's two players okay all right that's all I have right now thank
you we'll see if there are any questions from the board start down on this side with ro I have a few questions for you how how many leagues do you currently have during during your peak season so uh right now I would say we we have a women I'm sorry if I'm kind of talking out loud and talking through it we have
a women's league we host two internal leagues ourselves one on a specific night of the week and then the others consider a flex Le so participants can come in at their own schedule and book their hour two hours whatever it needs
to for them to to finish their round um we also have some external leagues from local golf clubs come in as well so we have a walkill golf club night that comes in either has one or several nights that they come in to to participate and play um we also have a group of Sky View golf clubs come in and
I would say another one to two additional local golf clubs come in for leaks okay I I've been to your facility a number of times I think it's great um thank you the problem was on those League nights the tea times weren't staggered enough to allow for parking so you had
people parking on the West Side maybe the shorter parking lot on the grass or in the road outside I I can't say that I've seen anyone on the grass yeah I did I was there so um my
only question is if we Stagg stagger those tea times particularly on League nights where you have a 15 30 minute break between the last tea time that that would be better okay yes you know maybe having people you know adjusting
your waiting area is one thing then you also have double the amount of parking spaces needed okay yeah so I think we'll we'll have to revisit our processes then and then eventually take in an additional again since our scheduling system is fully controlled we can add in that even
30 40 minute block in between that that turnover time thank you no problem go ahead Rob this is Rob Auto um sorry uh this is um I gu asked for the engineer for Mrs for Mr Simmons memo
about the applications I noticed where he went over the uh in previous cover slightly over at 40.1 there was a discrepancy on the the um the total um square
footage but uh regardless I think the recommendation back and forth was pervious pavers but previous application um he discussed how in his office previous papers were kind of seen
to be ineffective and I just wonder uh if pillow's office could weigh in on that if they agree with that if there's an alternative option to achieving that um 40% using something other than
impervious pvers or perious pvers rather if they are in fact SE effective comment this is Cory Stoner setting up for David Simmons uh this evening the um
we do allow per permeable pavers on the commercial sites it's always a question whether or not they're going to be uh effective longterm um because they need to have a maintenance required that they make sure they they kept clean they're not going to be paved over in the future
and they they they do you they take away their per able um capabilities down the road so I'm sure that if DAV had mentioned that before that's that's you know probably why um the this site here is Fort there is some different numbers that we've noticed and maybe Jason when he does his testimony can comment on the
previous coverage David a commented that the numbers 23484 square foot um at one location in the table says 23404 but bottom line it's it's still just slightly over 40 Point uh 40% and
40.1% it's a little odd that it's been the existing site and has been this way for many many years um personally um the uh the to tear that parking lot up to add that space as a permeable when down the road it could be a maintenance issue
um it might be in a better a better option to request another variance for the impervious coverage and leave it as it is because it's been working just fine storm water for many years thank you rob any any other
questions um I I got some of that but basically so am my understanding that just in general with prvious papers we treat it like a basin detention Basin where we would tie it to like a maintenance program annual maintenance
just to ensure that they're functioning as needed but in this case pretty small area yes uh typically on a commercial site any type of site has a a sizable uh permeable P paper area you that'd be part of their storm water maintenance plan which would have to be filed in the
clerk's office and you know you know and follow the land as a part of their deed that in the future that would be maintained um I personally believe this little this small spot I think it' be hard to make sure that that Mains maintains a um perable status stature
for many many years and might be a little bit of a hardship for the applicant thanks Mr sen yes sir I'm good thanks just a comment I thought the 100 feet I agree with Corey and that the the
100 feet be taking that pav pavement out that just seems like a little Overkill here um uh in in the uh in the letters uh
from the Fire Marshall it says that a fire that a fire depression system may be needed what is it that makes it may be needed is there anybody that can tell me that
James yeah the letter is here it says uh the tenant is listed as a business use group um but the occupancy load is uh less than 50 people uh based on the proposed expansion it's likely that the occupancy load will increase um and I think you know part of
the confusion was that uh your application really didn't State what you were going to do with that space you know were you going to add more Bays were you going to add more people so if you could just just address um your occupancy load and whether or not that's going to change
because that will affect the fire suppression systems no absolutely um at the moment there's where we have no plans on adding any other Bays um again it is just expand just giving everyone more space so we with our second location that we did open to down in
Rosland that location has a pro shop that we acquired as part of opening that business and there were several uh other Partnerships brand um contracts that we had with that that we would like to bring up to our facility here in Sparta
so is essentially just being able to give the pro shop a little bit more space that we currently have because right now it's only in the lobby section it just allows us to offer more to our customers so in terms of occupancy it's not going to increase um we're not adding any more bays and again we're just allowing a little bit more space a
little more breathing room as um Robert mentioned that League nights seem to be pretty busy just to give everybody uh some personal space as well maybe we could even make it a condition that the fire marshal has the opportunity to look at this again once
uh the plans are sented the whole plans are sented okay so Council the uh assuming it's approved it would be a condition subject to the Fire Marshall determination is that okay yes good thank you just real quick um wait you
want to okay so you you had said uh you know at this moment we don't plan on expanding um and I know we touched on this and he said no now but does that mean maybe potentially in two more years you might expand Bay are very expensive so no we're not going to expand with
more Bays okay we spend a lot on I just wanted a little more clarity on it because you can sit here and say oh we're not expanding and then a year you're expanding our our goal is to expand more locations not at a current location okay all right thank you for clarifying no problem um so I've had the the
pleasure of attending your facility as well but I was there for a 40th birthday party and it was wonderful uh I don't recall there being a parking issue but um what is your what is your
occupancy is it 50 I would I think if you know you know I I honestly don't know I would say was it's under it's under 50 okay oh you maxed out at 28 technically right yes I mean the the max amount of people that we would expect is 28 yeah okay I mean not everybody's
golfing yes yes correct y That's and according to the Fire Marshall the CCO that was issued in 2023 was the business use group that had to have the occupancy of less than 50 so that's what they have less than 50 yeah
you're still probably there yeah yeah thank you it thank you um I just had one question I don't know if this is really for the planner um but I did want to ask our um engineer first I took a look at the street parking ordinances
and I couldn't find that there were any restrictions on the road could you just maybe clarify that are they allowed to park in the street if there is an overflow um there is no specific restrictions according to the town ordinances I don't recommend it though
at this location uh due to the um the uh uh how that the property is configur configured on on the exist along the existing roadway it's on the outside of the roadway so Vehicles were parking along the outside of the roadways I think it would help promote vehicles to cross over the center line
of the roadway into the other half and if somebody's coming in the opposite direction around this inside of that curve that could actually be a little bit of a hazard situation so um it's not specifically prohibited I believe in the town ordinance but um I would recommend
it not be permitted as part of this application to allow them to park along the front so just to clarify though that the if the street parking is legal we can't prohibit them from parking on the street
but I well respected what you what you have said okay and I'd like to just follow up with the owner then um your peak times could you go over the peak times uh because I looked at the website I saw what they were but I'd
like you to explain that in that it is maybe a different time than most of the other businesses would be operating yeah absolutely so our peak times are based uh it's off peak and Peak um honestly it doesn't really reflect the busier times
um evenings tend to be the the busier times just because everyone's out of a normal workday at that point however our peak times are determined Friday evenings Saturdays and Sundays all right so just for the record so your peak times would not be when there would be
more rush hour traffic that's not your peak time yeah well it's industrial and there are offices so you're actually operating mostly when when they're not they're empty yes so you're oppos it yeah most people coming down the street
are coming to our facility yeah okay just uh real quick just if again assuming uh resolution uh in support uh when you do have parties and uh I'm not throwing stones are people allowed to bring food and drink in uh
yes yes that's fine uh very good and I just have a difficult time on why there's not a door in between the two uh locations uh the new expansion
someone's got to go outside to go into that I I don't know if this board would have any concern or or it it it just seems a little strange if I'm going into your facility and are you expanding the Pro Shop into the new area or what's going in the new area yeah so we're going to be putting the waiting area
over there so some additional couches and seating um for those people coming into the reservation and then expanding the pro shop and essentially where everything is right now moving it out um into that additional space nextore so the two I think some of the questions
were the dividing well there's going to be some type of council access uh just I don't think that's a problem I I just don't want to have a yeah there so Mr tra there's um right now there's a non-bearing non-load bearing wall
between the two spaces right correct is there is there an interior door somewhere that connects the two spaces anywhere currently no there's not there's not do you intend to put a door in there uh to connect the two spaces is that in your game plan for what it
discussed um so no but again I know with the board and I'm new to the board I I just have a common sense problem of I'm in using your facility and now the common area I got to walk out and go I
don't know it's that Mr yeah especially on a night like this it's not but I I I and in my opinion golfers are pretty hardy people there's a lot of um frustrated people not playing right now um so in our our experience right now we
haven't had any uh complaints about that so um it's only it's only for a quick minute um and even to be able to spread out the bodies at that point if people are dropping off their gear they're just easily and again they're coming in with jackets if it's raining out snowing out
boots out we do require everyone to bring in a separate pair of shoes just to you know maintain the Integrity of the mats so we we're we're properly able to to control the flow of traffic and how that's going to look so board what I could do is I could just put that the uh
the applicant uh would be permitted to have a connection uh as long as it's subject to um uh building code um and normal sub code especially space you're trying to take over is that behind the
first four Bays or is it on the side behind where your appr shop and the laborator it's the Pro Shop side okay just to follow up why don't you want to put in a door uh again we we just haven't discussed it um our main priority is just getting the okay
tonight to be able to continue planning and and just get through the the process that we need to all right so board as as I said I'll put in that it is not prohibited as long as subject to construction code and subcode sense okay can I just clarify one thing too you'd
mentioned that right now in the existing configuration that that's how your customers are accessing the building they're walking they they they walk through the front entrance and there's actually there are two separate doors that customers generally exit out of the
entrance is indicated by an Open golf bag sign right in our lobby area just because part of our check-in process since everybody is reserving online they have to check in at our front desk so Maj all the golfers are coming in to that front door and the the main front
end entrance is on the west it's it's in the middle of the building it's in the middle of the building correct in the in the middle on the western side uh where the smaller I'm not familiar with where the smaller Park the smaller parking lot parking is the smaller parking lot has the main entrance correct the larger this is the question I was getting at
before because there's no sidewalk connection if we already have an impervious coverage issue I'm not going to say that maybe we should put a sidewalk in um but I would recommend I think I think I think the greatest solution here is probably to look into
that doorway in between just so that the connection is made and that the full tenant space operates without having to leave the building especially when there's no sidewalk and when there's Landscaping that exists in the front of the building um I think that might be a
solution okay thank you okay any other questions thank you very much next witness thank you John you can go Ahad have a seat over here and I'd ask that uh our planner Jason
Dunn come up Jason you either affirm or swear you all me uh swear affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth uh so be got yes I do thank you yes I do okay thank you uh Mr D I'm just going to ask some
questions about your background please uh where are you currently employed I'm with dyra Associates 11 Lawrence Road Newton New Jersey and uh do you have any professional degrees yes um I have a degree in environmental planning and design from Ruckers University with the
concentration and Landscape architecture um I'm a professional planner and also a licensed landscape architect in the state of New Jersey have you ever testified as an expert in front of any other planning boards within the state of New Jersey yes I have testified over the last 16 or more years years um in
front of many boards including this one has this board in the past uh approved you as an expert yes in fact I was on the I was a planner um who presented this application I think in 2008 oh when it was a new building and uh M and you have some insight uh Mr
Dunn has has this board ever uh denied uh you to be an expert uh as a planner no okay Mr Daniel license is in good standing as as of today yes it is and board I'd recommend you accept Mr done the area professional planner as an
expert yes good thank you everyone um I know we've heard a lot about the um the operations of the business I think that was very important to get on the record um to help me explain why I think uh some of these variances are
Justified um the way I'm viewing this there's three variances were I would like to address kind of in the same uh in the same way uh because the the proofs are very similar for each uh one variance that we're asking for is the impervious
cover uh to remain at 40.1% instead of uh cutting up the pavement and uh putting in 100 square feet of impious uh pavers uh which involves uh cutting the pavement Excavating to a certain depth adding uh
clean gravel and piping and then you have the long-term maintenance issue um I i' I looked at this site I compared the old site plan uh from 20 to to what exists as built today uh from what I can see uh the reason the impervious is slightly over is that the sidewalk on
the uh West Side um is a little longer than what was proposed uh back then uh that was to to uh have the sidewalk extend to where the actual doors are there must have been some change in the building plan or something so there's a
reason for it um we did try to look for places to um cut out 100 square ft of existing impervious um we didn't find that was practical uh and still keep the same uh pedestrian and vehicle circulation uh that works
today um the second variance we're asking for is uh for the amount of parking stalls um as was explained earlier and in the letters from your professionals uh f a minimum of 50 parking stalls are required for this use
um however there's also a uh a numerical calculation that brings us it's 1% 75 Square ft um so that would bring us to 11.2 stalls would be required under under that calculation there are 30 on
site and um third of all I think it's uh it came out in uh your planner's report about the landscaping and what's out there uh when I took a look at uh what was installed which is per the or substantially per the plan from 2008 um
it it does fall short of the specific new ordinance requirements of the percentage of landscape aping and buffering that's required uh we would ask the board to give uh uh relief on the the strict compliance of of that uh because of the fact that this is an existing site and um the Landscaping in
my opinion is appropriate uh the variance I think can be justified under C both the C1 and C2 criteria uh C1 uh because it is undersized lot this is Ed Zone which requires 880,000 ft Min
minimum uh this is uh just under 60 ,000 Square ft so uh the parking for instance uh could not be achieved uh in in a practical way we we could not put put 50 stalls here on this lot um and and not
be grossly over the impervious coverage allowance or even um have it have it work functionally um the that that also goes toward landscaping and uh and the slight over overage in the impervious uh but I also
think that this C2 uh criteria does cover this um it promotes the general welfare by providing a business in your Economic Development Zone that's a a clean business um there's there's no deliveries uh besides the regular uh business operation of cleaning supplies
and whatever the Pro Shop is needed um there's no manufacturing happening here and uh it's it's also I think Recreation out you know commercial indoor Recreation is is a is a need in the community um so it uh supports the general welfare of the community we
heard about uh the fact that the business owners uh offer it to different leagues and um this skark which is a nonprofit agency as we know that um that caters toward disabled persons um we
also uh it also by by allowing these um these variances I don't think that it would uh substantially impair your Zone plan or uh certainly would not impact the neighbors uh we heard about how the parking at at at 30 spaces does work for
this use um they've never had an issue before and they have a a very uh I wouldn't say very unique but it's it's it's an important piece of the puzzle here and that is they can control um who comes in and when uh through their online reservation systems um If This
Were another use uh the the the tenant or the owner would not be able to control that as well um so I I that's that's my testimony I mean I can elaborate further if you'd like um I don't know if there was more questions about the site but I think I'd like to reiterate if it wasn't mentioned already
that we are not proposing any site improvements unless the board uh holds us to that 100 square fet of permeable pavers okay thank you we'll go to our professionals I just have a quick question though would we have to um have one more variance for the loading zone
to reiterate that yes uh thank you for reminding of that um typically on site plans at least in my experience with this with this board uh that is a design exception uh not not a variance but it would go under the same criteria I don't think it's specifically necessary for
this use so I'd like to ask the board for Relief on that as well professionals thank you and looking at the original resolution they did um receive a what they called a site plan exception at the time for no loading
space so I don't know if I defer to Mr porro if he thinks that that captures in the new building very good points it's raised and so noted um I just have a few questions uh I know you'd mentioned that you know you might be short on the Landscaping can you just describe
there's and I want to do this for the board as well because it's come up a few times in the Ed Zone there's two separate Landscaping sections there's an existing one under 18- 5.30 I believe um and that's existed that's the standard Landscaping requirements for you know all site plan
applications and then there's um 18- 4.9 i7 which is the Ed Zone requirements which were added in a few years ago when the Ed Zone was amended and those are particular and um both are required um they're not
competing they're kind of layered requirements um so I just just a clarification on on what relief is is being sought sure um I did a a quick calculation of the landscape areas just sort of uh making some assumptions about
around the the shrubs and and trees that were located by the surveyor um you know if you take just the exact area of the of the trunks you don't get a real count of what the actual mulch area is of the planting area um so what I
came up with Excuse me was uh 2000 okay just under 2900 square feet of Total Landscape area so the the one section of the landscape area ratio in your Ed Zone
ordinance uh requires a minimum of 40% um in the past I think we've counted uh existing Lawns and Landscape areas so we actually probably we do U meet that um and then section three of that of that
portion of the ordinance says that property boundaries evergreen trees should be planted at 15 foot intervals a minimum of two row offsets along the property um to obscure views from upper floors of nearby buildings uh this property does not have that I I I really
don't think it's it's necessary uh because it it's not really buffering from any residential Zone there's just the neighboring properties uh that that are also uh commercial in nature um there's I mean that's that's really the
bulk of of that section of the of the ordinance and then we have uh like Mr not said um the 18- 5.3 design standards in landscaping where it says a percent percent of the site equal to a minimum of 30% of all impervious surface shall
be dedicated to the to plant Mass areas um that would be that would be a about a little over 7,000 over 10,000 square ft I think oh your ovious coverage is about
24,000 23,000 so it's about 23,000 yeah so 30% is like 7500 or so right right right uh so we are at 20 2,800 okay um also says a parking lot of 20 more spaces should be provided with interior landscap and covering not less
than 5% of the area of the parking lot um we we don't have any interior landscape islands with these parking areas and um so I uh I don't know if it would be worthwhile to to cut that in there um so that's that's what that's a
relief we're asking for generally okay um just to summarize from what I heard I believe that um relief would be needed from 18- 5.3.1 D from the 30% Landscaping requirement from what I heard um they're
um shy of the 7500 approxim 7500 um square foot requirement and Mr dun had mentioned that's about 28 2900 ft existing right now um there's an additional relief required from 18- 4.29
i7 a three um which is the requirement for the property boundaries to have evergreen tree screening um which is currently not existing and not pro not proposed um I would ask that that um if
they do an updated as built plan as part of resolution compliance they just include the actual um numbers or even a you know a in in the resolution if they if this application is looked favorably upon that they include some of these calculations and some sort of table so that it is codified and we know what the
relief was Mr Gray is that okay yes that's okay thank you very much thank you thank you okay um just for clarification that this is a minor site plan for the use use change correct that's the first part of
this application then then there's a variance um um for the impervious coverage exceeding the 40 40 40% that's what you're requesting and then the not meeting the the parking requirements now the parking requirements fall under the
design standard section of the code so is that a design exception or variance I mean it it's it's been treated a couple couple both ways uh in front of the sport in the in the past um I've seen other boards handle it as a design exception and not a variance
so board attorney if you have a comment on that I'm not sure i' recommend to a board we Grant both the VAR we'll treat it as a variance and uh but I think professionally uh it's really a design waiver but for the sake of approval so there's no misunderstanding on the
record where uh I would add it as the the fourth uh variance again number one variance the impervious surface number two the parking uh numbered number three the uh landscaping and buffer uh ordinance uh deviation and number four
the design waiver well that's uh design waiver and the loading block uh dock issue that's what I've U memorialized as the material variances and then um the only other question I had about the plan the ovious coverage of
numbers they're different numbers on different plan sheets there's a there's a plan sheet like the uh the ASU has a certain number the the the the site plan that that we have has a different number so just I'd like to have an upset updated set of plans that have all the
same numbers yes uh we agree to do that and I did check uh the previous cover area calculation on the site plan um it was mistyped in two places it's two 23384 uh not
23,44 so we we can correct that and we can also check it against the ASU and that still comes over 40% correct yes okay yes and I think uh David had commented on his report uh some other items like the the application form had
um a difference in a lot size numbers just he asked if the the application form be updated um he did ask to make make sure we had the the health department uh an updated from the health department approval construction official approval building ADA requirements make sure all building
permits are up to date whenever this change occurs and then the fire protect uh fire prevention fire protection outside agent I think there was a letter from the fire fire department but just make sure that these uh you know when the change of use occurs that all these
other approvals are up to date and the applicant agrees with all of those uh potential conditions yeah thank you thank you anybody from the board have questions I'm gonna start with Rob this time because he's Rob AO got anything
Rob I don't I guess not anybody else I have a question Catherine this is more more towards you but why do we Grant an an exception on the Landscaping when we can bring it up
the code uh no hello Rob he's on delay it's the other Rob speaking right now so Rob Auto please wait Rob bely started speaking uh
no foury old it's really up to this board if you do um you know want to request that the applicant or see if they will agree to supplement the existing Landscaping um from what is there today if you think it's
appropriate um um because this is an amended minor site plan um but it's really up to um this board I will mention that the requirements um specifically for the Ed
Zone were implemented you know almost 12 24 months ago 15 what no I was just saying after this had been approved so this was approved in 2008 so it's been you know almost 15 years that this building has been approved and existed um without those requirements so it's truly up to this board if if you want to
request that the applicant um supplement the Landscaping in any way I think that's that's appropriate is that a landlord responsibility it would be I think they'd have to check with the landlord to see if they'd agree to it yeah it does it presents a whole another level of uh they'd have to get approval of the
landlord and it would you have the right to do it um I would say they'd have to come back with a landscaping plan uh you could do an conditional approval tonight if you wanted subject to coming back back uh but there would be another level
of review you couldn't just say put put another evergreen tree you really should have a landscaping plan and then you may need a maintenance bond for that the the Landscaping so it's whatever you think is proper I don't I don't think
we came up with this new um these new guidelines for what I don't want to say that you um yeah can you pull the microphone down so yeah thank you well I think if we're looking at an opportunity here to to bring things to code we
should um and I would like to see the landscap in there not from personally but it would you know even though this came into effect in 2022 and without putting any undue burden on the on the applicant um I think it should be good
considered uh one thing you could if the board did choose to do that uh you could do a condition approval tonight uh that the final certificate of occupancy for the new area would not be approved uh until you approve a landscaping plan if you chose to do that you could issue a
temporary uh co uh so they could be up and running economically but the final co could be subject to a landscape land again if you so chose that direction a question along those lines um they don't have to do all evergreen trees they could make maybe do some
other shrubs small plants to maybe create a barrier between if you're looking at your building to the right because there's no barrier there at all there there right now the Ed Zone does require at property boundaries The
Evergreens in a staggered formation basically as like a screening tool um not linear like on two foot offsets um they it also requires um Landscaping break up the long building so it would be at the side but there's
no room on the side right now so there are things that because this building is already built it presents it presents an impediment to being able to meet all of the requirements um I would ask Mr poro if he thinks it's appropriate that if the board if the applicant agreed to
additional Landscaping if they could um provide a a compliant plan that could be subject to the professional review um Mr Dunn is a licensed landscape architect and I think think he might be able to shed a little light uh on on the situation as
well uh thank you uh Mr Bleckley I I appreciate um you're noting that and and it is a definitely a valid question um why not bring this to the to the strict compliance of the new code um I guess my my answer to that would be um as as M Samad said uh you were talking about an
existing site and an existing building um and uh although you you have all the right to to make us do that uh it does cause a financial hardship which I know it's not really for the board to consider that part of it but um strictly speaking from aesthetic View and a
practical view uh this site could use some uh some upgrades uh but we would ask for Relief at least from uh the full uh line of evergreen trees only because it it would not serve a practical purpose it would just be I mean I know
that trees are definitely a good thing we all know that uh but uh you know it's not buffering the the view from anything uh significant you got a solar field and two commercial sites uh neighboring here um so while I agree
that some some uh additional Landscaping would be appropriate especially in light of the uh the impervious cover variants if if the board would uh uh allow that I think that the the tenant and landlord would be agreeable the question is like
what is that how much uh so uh at the least I would ask the board to consider waving the the evergreen trees and uh then we could probably upgrade to that 7500 Square F feet of landscape areas uh to to really make the site look a little
better yeah I I would remind the board about the testimony um you have heard that my clients uh occupy this uh space pursuant to a written lease agreement the lease agreement the testimony was that they don't maintain the outside at all they don't do the snow removal they
don't do the Landscaping they don't do the mowing um I legally they probably don't have permission a lease agreement to modify the Landscaping in any respect they would have to go back to the landlord for any permission and a discussion about uh whatever conditions
are placed on them to do just as a reminder about the testimony that you've heard understood Council brings a good point uh I've seen that you could do a conditional approval uh and as uh the planner uh Katherine uh brought up that
uh it could be reviewed just professionally by the board engineer and planner uh you could retain jurisdiction as to the Landscaping issue if the landlord had a problem or if your professionals could not agree it it it would come back to here uh before they
get their uh final certificate of occupancy again the board can give them the temporary certificate of occum they can get up and running but they wouldn't get the final until the Landscaping issue was resolved olved that's a possible resolution anybody else have any
questions so I sorry um Rob um so did I understand that there's the question of uh effectively is out of compliance
since 2022 on some issues uh it's a it's a there's a complication because some of the things that would bring it into compliance would require the owner to actually affect those changes not obviously DET tenant
um and I guess I'm just wrestling with we're we're again kind of looking at accommodating despite guidelines having changed and so I understand that from
from you know this particular Project's wants and needs uh but presumably we we put these guidelines in place since then for a reason so I just want to make sure that we are considering them it sounds like
we are in this part of it um but I I just you know put it back to our lawyer and to our professionals that you know we're we're not always trying to uh make these projects fit according
to the old uh guidelines that we have the new guidelines that we're trying to be proactive to to conform to those because otherwise we just end up with this Patchwork and you know the idea of these good ideas but
then we've we've modified everything to fit the unit so all right thank okay thank you anybody else all right just I'm sorry chair just
as a uh response um to the question that was just asked uh by Rob uh I think it's important to remember that when this building was first approved back in 2008 and there were guidelines in place there was a specific plan and Landscape plan
design around the project at that time that this board said that makes sense for this particular plan for this particular site and uh since since the landscape ordinance was updated in
2022 because that was not all laid out and planned at the time in 2008 there's been a landscape plan in place um it it it would be prohibitively difficult or with the evergreen trees just not make a lot of sense well let me ask you a question though on the I think it's on
the west side of the building the the side with the the least amount of parking spaces where it indicates that there's a shrub row there um yeah I don't think there is I don't think there's a shub row there I don't think I don't think so
either from just aerial photography so that that was the other point it's said not just compliance can we make sure that the Landscaping that is there is in good shape and that can we supplement what should be there if it's not there yeah earlier that the original
plan with the previous board that was approve that uh when they were looking to prepare current as buils that they they didn't match what the plan was previously approved as like specifically I think
walk yeah Rob with the impervious surface the and they believe the testimony was that the walkway pedestrian walkway is longer than was is anticipated so it it could be a sight deviation it doesn't look like there's any underhead inness it just looks like
the contractor accommodated the site with longer uh sidewalk uh but the this is Ken poro the attorney speaking uh again the concept of a uh approval subject to a professional review and you
would rain jurisdiction if there was a problem therefore the issue raid by the board planner and board engineer on on Shrubbery and improving drainage could all be addressed at their level and if there is a disagreement it would come back otherwise if they sign off uh a
temp a permanen c of vot could be issued okay I appreciate that thank you sure okay just to reiterate it was uh your testimony Mr dun that you believe that the property could be improved with Landscaping despite what was originally
approved in 200 18 old plan I'm sure I'm sure the owner would disagree but uh yes I think that some supplementary uh Landscaping would be appropriate here and also to look into the health of what's there sure thank
you okay do you have any further testimony no Madam chairwoman that uh concludes our testimony and presentation this evening thank you very much okay then at this point I think I'd like to defer to our attorney yes oh I'm sorry poor j oh yeah the public yes yes shame
on all of us she sitting there so quietly thank you it's nothing egregious I just have a couple questions I have to admit that this is Jenny derk's tap into Sparta I do um golf in the ladies League that uses that
facility um sorry Jenny I'm I'm new can you spell your last name please d e r i c k s thank you we did just finish last week so we're done um but um the question you're just asking questions I'm not going to not
testifying just asking questions well so far anyway the uh question is um the Katherine at the last meeting you had mentioned that um a rollup door doesn't need to be counted as a dock door they have a rollup door the new
space has a rollup or the the existing extra space has a rollup door is that correct anyway is there a man door back there as well that's my question yes there is so you can you can enter yeah it's similar to our our current could you speak in could you come up speak into to the mic sorry I
just don't recall seeing that our current our current facility right now has does have rollup doors there's two of them and then there are two additional normal so there's a man door in the back an exact mirror copy of that down into the new the new space and just
for the record John tra yes thank I think that was my only question um and just to help you out a little bit the when the this is testifying SAR to the whole TR God I do
um when the Reser when the reservation is over the screen shuts off you can't even keep playing if you wanted to so just to help you out with your time okay thank you now I'll turn it over yes uh board you have before you uh the application uh PB for planning board
24- 727 the green 973 LLC located at 10 Park Lake block 16001 lot 11 Ed Zone the application before you is for minor site plan with variants uh notice was determined as uh
submitted uh by the applicant and they are uh in support of the application there was the owner witness and also their professional planner and through their attorney Mr David Gray uh the exhibits are uh part of the application
which is already submitted we also have the engineering report from uh P dated December 23rd 2024 we have our uh board planner report uh dated February 12th
2025 uh we have from the uh Police Department a January 2nd 2025 submitt they do not see any traffic safety issues uh you also have fire prevention that made comments uh and if the board was to approve this application the
applicant agreed to comply with the Fire subcode and Fire Prevention issues as raised in their December 30th 2024 review comments you also have before you the department of utilities that uh said is acceptable and there would be be no
additional impact on water service and the tax assessor said that uh that was all in compliance and you also have the environmental commission uh gave no objection to the application and then finally you have the health department
that also confirmed that the uh facility is functioning within the requirements and did submit some documentation uh obviously the applicant has said that if any of the um additional work triggered subcode or additional review by County
state or other agencies they recognize that as a condition they also agreed to a condition of an as buil plan uh at the end before a certificate of occupancy would be provided and again if there's any subcode electric plumbing and the
like they would comply with that uh and at the end of the day they are seeking uh four uh variants or design waiver areas number one the impervious surface number two the parking stall number number three we had quite a bit of
conversation on the Landscaping in buffer and uh the I believe the sentiment is that the applicant will supplement that uh we would Grant the variance but supplemented subject to review by the professional planner board
your professional planner and uh board uh uh engineer and what you would do is retain jurisdiction in the resolution if there's a disagreement between between the applicant and the board professional review would come back here for final resolution if there is no disagreement
uh then the applicant can move forward to get their final certificate occupancy and the last thing was we talked about the design waver or uh variants relating to the loading dock and that I believe summarizes the application it would be
proper uh the chairperson to uh someone to move the approval subject to those issues and someone second uh but just because you move it doesn't mean you have to vote for it can I add um one more condition yes um what Rob Bley had
suggested a break between the tea times for the turnover reduce the any parking issues yeah can we clarify that Council what do you think uh give me some language uh I think that a uh uh the applicant uh has a 10 to 15 minute window between
scheduling leagues coming and going I think that was the testimony that that would be appropriate and that you can build that into your system I think you might want to build out more than that you know you know how eager golfers are and they show up 10 15 minutes early you know and start drooling at the scen I I
don't want to impede too much on on my client's business and I appreciate that but I'm no expert in um the timing or the golf uh coming and going um but if I put them down for 30 minutes and then everybody's just waiting around for the
screens to go yes um you know uh uh I'm just not qualified to testify to that so maybe my my my client could speak more intelligently to that point yeah please if we can hear that yeah um all right so just to reiterate
the question is just to to clarify a little bit how much time is needed um if you go to a regular golf course you're expected to start at a specific tea time so even if you get there early we do accommodate that for a lot of our customers especially if there's no
reservations before we're we're not going to make if it's an empty facility we're not going to make them wait 10 10 five 10 minutes before they start my yeah my concern isn't isn't the normal Saturday morning you know where you're having three out of your Seven Bays being being utilized it's on the league
nights right so where you have people who are still playing um taking up the 30 parking spaces in your lot then you have the next round coming in with their their in their nine hole session right with nowhere to park so I'm just what we're
at what I'm asking for really is a little more lead time to let the first round of golfers and it's not every day you can make it for League nights so that you can clear up the parking lot in time for people people to come come in yeah so I with with that being said I would say is it is 30 minutes in
acceptable amount to me it is sure so then we we would absolutely consider 30 minutes minute leeway time before all right so let just uh because uh I have to work with your Council to put it into some type of language let's say I'm I
have a time at 5:00 yes and I pay for an hour correct and that brings me to six o'clock and let's say there's leagues at uh 600 and 7 how how are you breaking up the time so the parking lot doesn't get exhausted
so would be we wouldn't you wouldn't be able to book at five at that point so we would essentially make the last reservation before leag night using your example um at 4 so an hour reservation from 4: to 5:00 p.m. we don't offer um
normally 30- minute reservations majority of our reservations are on the hour for an hour at minimum um so at that point we would just we would just lose out on the hour before the leag so but Rob is saying you know how if it's five to six and then six to S so League
nights we always we always um schedule them at the end of the the night so there'll be there won't be any reservations afterwards so at that point there won't be a six o00 League there won't be a 7:00 League the only times that we would run into that is with some
of the junior clinics or Junior leagues that we have those are only an hour but that's just treated like a normal reservation at that point so our staff turns over the bay Within less than a minute um there's very minimal cleanups so even if there's League members waiting we usually get them with started
at least by five after the hour at right so but what the board member is saying is that your parking lot is yes ex so how do we address how do your attorney and I write up a resolution that addresses that so we we would
accommodate that we would we would close off baytime reservations uh ample enough to allow that 30 minute Mark before for turnover of the the base so I think Council if we say something to the effect of um as a condition of approval
30 minute there would be a 30 minute window before and after League Play wherein the Bas would not be utilized for play yeah yes League or uh full 7 Bay
usage go ahead yes is that okay yes yeah so so so just to be clear Mr trada you would agree age that there would be no parking on the grass correct right so um and and you would be agreeable to that right yes correct and
then when the bays are full by way of uh the Seven Bays are full or when they're full by way of League uh usage that there would be a 30 wind a 30 minute window between those activities correct yeah well while work out with your
counsel I think I think what we would um say Mr poro is something is to the leagues again and and I don't know but there might be you know a league that uses two BS and it's and it's you know public use for the other three I I don't
want to shut their business down unnecessarily what do you think no I think he's right I think that when we have and you guys will know which which leagues fully utilize all the bay I mean I've been there for the same league really it's a backup too and one time we had a park in the street and one time we
parked in the grass and that was just about you know the people who were in the Stalls before us and that 15minute layover where there's a transition because when we came out there were empty spaces at the parking lot but you know yeah I think I think we need to
clear out time between league play right so so if we limited it to just you know 30 minute blockout before and after League Play is there ever an instant Mr trada where there's a league night or a league plays and then after that league
is done like after women's league is done there's another League after that no there's no back-to-back leagues there's no back-to-back leagues so I I would just say 30 minute window be be before League Play then we don't have to address after um and and that should be
enough to clear out the parking enough you know people may linger can't help that but I think 30 minutes is is reasonable and oh yeah and uh Mr MC K would like to say something I don't know that I got to
got to swear you in real quick Solly swear to tell the truth whole truth and nothing but the truths help got yes I do uh name and business address for the record Patrick mckernin business address is 10 Park Lake Road Sparta New Jersey thank you um just to address that league question I think so
number one I want to clarify that all the leagues that we have aren't full facility so we do have some Junior clinics and leagues that come in that might take up one two or three Bays I think I would ask for those to not be
part of this I think what what Robert is addressing is a full facility League where every single Bay is taken for that league and turned over at the exact same time because we do have other moments where the whole facility is sold out but
they're staggered tea times all throughout the day so I don't think we have an issue there I think what he's saying is when you know you have reservations up till 6:00 and that League starts at 6 o'clock so you have those people finishing up and another 24
28 people coming in at that same time for that 10 15 minute window he's saying that he's experienced a parking issue so I think full facility or full full Bay usage leagues we can put that half hour in we would just ask for the rest of the
time because it is staggered even though our facilities sold out shouldn't have to put that half hour in BO I'm comtable that the applic and attorney and myself can come up with some language one more
comment we we'll void their certificate of [Laughter] occupancy okay with you want to agree to this I mean doesn't this isn't this going to adversely impact your business or no it's I if you look at the 180
reviews we have on go Google we have zero parking uh negative parking comments for it so to accommodate the customer experience and that's what our business is about is the customer service and value um to improve League nights those full facility leagues we'
definitely um consider adjusting the time frame so it's a very limited amount it's it's not every night it's not every morning uh it's it's really only one maybe Max two nights a week um nights are League nights are your last group of goers anyway they're always the last
yeah we we structure it accordingly knowing that all six bays are going to be you know all the bays are going to be turned over at once and that's very rare that that actually happens and Mr TR do you think how this might be a difficult question to answer
but be before league play right and I'm guessing I'm guessing leagues are showing up right people are finishing off can you testify as to how long it normally would take somebody just playing there regularly they're done they got to go you know they're screen
shut off right and the league is coming in and running into some parking issues those two nights a week th those people who are finishing their play right that's who we're trying to clear out how long do does it normally take in your opinion for somebody to you know the
screen shut off they stopped their play they got to get their clubs together they got to get their gather their belongings you know maybe look at the stuff at the pro shop and and leave how long do you think that process takes and then and then get in their car put their
bags in their car get into the car pull out and exit the the driveway uh I would say less than five minutes um now you you I'm curious if if maybe the board would consider something like 20 minutes for the turnaround time as opposed to 30
just for you know normal business operations to continue gives them enough time to clean up gives people time to go yes maybe people are coming and going at the same time in the in the car but I think that should go a long way to uh alleviating any parking congestion at
the time well you're referencing more the people leaving you know within five minutes how about the people coming in the the golfers who want to be there for the league how early do they come in uh since they have a scheduled time majority of our customers come in 5
minutes before um their reservation starts so at that they come in change shoes get settled the changing of shoes isn't as often it's only during like if there's snow on the ground or even our walkways everything is generally very
clean and our staff does a pretty good job of cleaning the facility itself to maintain the the look and cleanliness but um it's it's a very quick turn around cuz from our business standpoint we need golfers to to start swinging as quickly as possible at the time of the
reservation so if it's any longer than 7 minutes or any longer than 700 p.m. or 6 p.m. right after the reservation start time it's too long at that point so clean up out and clean up in is is very minimal and very quick well we're just talking the leagues and stuff but going
back to your earlier testimony then you said that it was very congested and crowded in the waiting area which is the why you need more space so clearly there are a lot of people on site if you're facing that congestion that would be due to the golf like addition of golf bags
the equipment um because when you look to to kind of explain the the foot area of what one single individual golfer would have is obviously their own personal space but along with their bag that they're bringing and their their gear to play so to be able to facilitate
a quicker out and in route is why we would need this additional space to help spread that out so it's even faster at that point okay what is your best estimate of the time that you would need before a league uh I would say uh honestly 10 15 minutes before that
turnaround time for a previous reservation to leave and and clear out from the parking lot and at that point I think it comes down to the standard of letting our league players know that 7 p.m. is a strict start time and to to come a little bit closer to the
reservation at that point real real quick so you had a previous tenant next door right correct and they had operating hours do you know how many people employees were there at any given time uh one one car and one employee that was it okay that's all I want that on the record
y okay what' we come up with 15 i' just like to address that as well so at the end there was one person there prior to covid from my understanding from the owner there was about 15 employees so there the whole front area was an office staff the whole back was a
warehouse they were building servers and computers so at one point there was 15 employees there at the end when he didn't need the space anymore there was one I just want to bring that up because that is something that maybe we're missing here too if you had 15 other cars with the previous tenant there also
operating with your business that collectively you have more people absolutely yeah so I get at the at the end there was one um and and our main thing was really to prevent somebody else from going in there so that we could retain the entire building
and have the parking spots okay Patrick what is your best estimate of uh the time in between somebody leaving in a leag I'd AG I'd agree with the 10 to 15 minutes um I it shouldn't be more than that I mean like like Robert said uh some some of the people do come a little early for the leagues which we could do
a better job communicating with them but um as far as 15 minutes prior I mean like like John was saying earlier we want our customers in and out and then just getting the next group set up so um realistically five minutes is fine but I know those those League nights you know
everyone is a little excited and um you know people getting out of the house and getting together with their friends so they might show up 10 15 minutes early that's where we run into those issues because these people were finishing up so if we have a hard stop on those tea times prior um it will allow us the time
to get them out get them to their car and get the League members in so are you comfortable with that then Rob 15 minutes sure and then quite frankly it's your business if it's going to be congested and not working it's going to be in your best interest and we don't want that either I mean that's like like
John our business is customer service so we are not looking to have issues or people parking in the grass or anywhere else and that's our job to police it as business owners so we want the transition to be smooth that's why we have the the back entrance there's a sign above it so people could park that back there you know we don't want people
carrying their golf clubs a long distance either so we want that entrance door to be accessible and nice and easy for our customers okay so the mo um the resolution is on the table and decided on the 15minute interval would anybody like to make a motion I'll make a motion
I'll make a motion to approve with what Mr poro um said before I'll second it okay roll call please Robert blle yes Janette bur yes councilman Mark Scott yes Brian
Zimmerman yes yes Vice chairman Robert Otto yeah and chairwoman Joan Ferman yes great thank you congratulations Council I should have the res res resolution by the next uh uh
30 days but I'll get to you a draft before yeah if you want to email me because I have some ideas about um what would make sense for code enforcement great thank you thank you very much everybody for your time and attention thank you I just like like to ask if we could take a five minute break
in between thank e e e e e e e e e
e e e e e e e we're live okay um can we jump to the training
session yes uh can pour over the record what I did was I handed out to you uh it's the uh New Jersey statute 40 col 55 d-25 and you'll see I highlighted in yellow it says powers of the planning
board and that's obviously uh this group and you'll see the main area is one through six so if um you know number one your a master plan that your primary number one function number two you do subdivisions and could be related site
plan to the site uh subdivision number three uh efforts related to the official map and the official map is what your zones are do you want open space here again the the map the road map for the town and that really goes hand inand with the master
plan uh again the master plan is more of the verbiage but the official map will reflect your master plan number four the zoning ordinance including conditional uses that's where you've seen over the years the mayor and Council uh uh change
uh zoning ordinances that comes to you and you get to review that you refer it back to the mayor and councel and they can either accept or reject or uh your recommendations uh also one that sometimes gets neglected is the capital
Improvement program that's uh again if the municipality is looking to to do in the future a new park uh new facility uh that's part of your function to review those and uh if the mayor and
counsel are going for funding the state may say do you have a capital Improvement program that has been approved by the planning board and uh it's not hard and that we deal with the planners on that number six and then variances as we saw tonight the variance
related to the site plan and certain building permits in conjunction with the subdivision this is all pretty straightforward now the the next one the planning board May so on the above those are issues that shall come before you they may come before you if you're
participating in a um in the preparation or review of a program or plan required by state and federal law so let's say when uh Co came into play and they allowed outdoor uh restaurants and the like uh those were sent to the planning
board for your review the town mayor and Council would pass ordinances but they did come here through let's say certain federal state programs uh number two again May uh assemble data on continuing bases on continuous planning process so
here the mayor and Council again delegate to the planning board that you assemble data let's say on um uh cannabis on things to is it should it be in this Zone what are you seeing uh have
subcommittees so that's may do that number three perform such other advisory duties as assigned by ordinance again uh the mayor and counsel so the really the the top portion one through six is your primary function if we go to the next
page highlighted uh and you'll see again the uh referal Power uh the adoption before any uh development plan if you see Redevelopment plan the mayor and Council talk about uh certain proposed development regulations that comes
before you again we're seeing more Redevelopment uh if we go now to the next page I've highlighted that the 40.6 uh the minicipal zoning powers are not limited that and this is very important I was talking to the uh
chairperson uh earlier today Joan or just before that you had a ruling by the superior court that basically said that uh review and approvals should come before the planning board because you are best suited to review what goes on
in your town so the Jersey statute this is the legislation said here your zoning Powers sh shall not limit uh that just because of because of public health safety and Welfare so if someone says to you that U uh you don't have the power
to place that condition well you can always Retreat back to uh public health safety and Welfare and and a little bit of common sense that uh you're not you're doing what's best for your community can I just stop there for a second because we were speaking about
this um and I think it came up uh in light of traffic because we were I think we were all under the impression that we can only look at uh circulation on site but um if we are looking at the health
safety weal Ware and uh what's the fourth one public health safety and W okay then we are able to take that into account so that's going to be a big switch in our thinking well what you have to use a level let's say it's traffic and the uh
applicant comes in with a traffic expert uh if you do not have the traffic expert from the board rebutting or addressing that now you can use Public Health safet welfare but there are
standards of review that are not rebutted by the applicant if your board traffic person uh agrees 100% with the applicant's applicant on traffic you have a tough
road by board members to say look I live this public health safety and Welfare I disagree with the experts and I disagree with my board and that's that's probably not going to go well the better the better thing is to enact conditions in advance of that so
you're not on the defense and and just hoping that your traffic person is going to produce results that you would expect well that's a good point yeah that's a good point uh you can say uh that uh
this particular Zone has particular parking requirements you can uh restrict uh you know time place and manner of the road of if they're impacting uh but that all comes to the traffic study uh Joan was alluding to the case it's called the
Dunkin Donuts case and with the Dunkin Donuts case think of a strip mall and it had four uses and on the end they had a uh let's say a coffee shop or some type of operation went out of business and Dunkin' Donuts moved in Dunkin Donuts
was a permitted use and the board said look I know you're permitted use but the amount of traffic you're going to create and the old tenant didn't have that so therefore they denied the application uh and the applicant had a traffic expert and the board just said
uh they didn't uh they disagreed the court said it was a permitted use and that therefore you could not uh in that case utilize traffic as the sole or the main reason for denial because it was a
permitted use now as Rob just in inferred if you say yeah it's a permitted use but you have to have 10 parking spaces and you will only have five or you have to have uh setbacks of 20 feet and you will only have 10 so
you're establishing the record that it's not just traffic it's the site constraints it's the additional variances that are making this uh proposed use improper I will be very candid with you you are the planning board when something comes before you as
the planning board you are there is a presumption that it is an approved use however as it was just brought out by the two robs why do we have ordinances if we don't have compliance with it so therefore I think you did the right
thing on the applicant before you on the Landscaping issue yeah in 2008 it was approved to those standards but now there's a change of circumstance gives you a second to the apple and you did a you did do a service to your
application by giving landscaping and I like the way you deferred to the Professional Engineers because that way they could come up with a plan shrubs and the like it's relatively inexpensive they don't have to do a written plan per
se that comes back before you takes another 30 days and another review process so that's a nice way to address uh those concerns okay all right so moving along uh you'll see I did throw in here the powers of
the the zoning board okay if we go to the next page it says powers of the board of adjustment and the only reason I threw that in there is when someone says to you oh it's uh the njsa 40 col 55-70 a C1 variance and you'll see all
that is is paragraph C and there's C1 c1a is where by reason of the exceptional narrow ESS shallowness or shape now you grant C variances here also this is where it comes from so uh when someone says oh a C1 variant you
can say oh yeah that's uh found in 40 colon 55 b-70 C1 you're now the expert in in the area and you'll see uh uh C2 we go a little further down where in an applicant or appeal piece of purpose act
uh that's educational and then you'll see that language that I highlighted uh that the benefit of the deviation would substantially outweigh the detriment so you'll hear a lot of people use different uh language on it here is the
black letter law a C2 variant says you're granting it because the benefit of the deviation the benefit of the variance would substantially outweigh any uh detriment not that it's 5050 but that it
substantially outweighs now uh it has been the the cases and other colleagues have said you know if it's just better you know with the deviation you should give it because it outweighs but the statute does see substantially
okay and if we keep going a little further I had highlighted uh you know just the other subcategories but no variance and I highlight no variance or other relief may be granted under the terms of this section including apparance other relief involvement and
inherently beneficial use without a showing that such variance of relief can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good without not substantially impairing the intent and purpose of the zoning plan now wow a lot of language a lot and someone comes to
you and says well it's inherently beneficial uh it's going to be a school it's going to be a church it's going to be a you know something that really is good for society just because it's inherently beneficial doesn't give them a grant right away
the way I like to look at at that is you have the positive and negative criteria inherently beneficial gives you the positive but you still have to deal with the negative by way of camping negative as against the master plan and your intent and that's what this is saying it
cannot impair the intent and purpose of the zoning plan or your other zoning ordinances so if if in fact uh a church or a certain facility is not permitted in a Zone even though it's inherently beneficial it doesn't mean they get
approved uh they they they still have a uh a purpose to why it should be there now what I found is that when a municipality says churches are permitted in this Zone uh nursing homes are permitted in this Zone
things that are inherently beneficial if you give zones if you prohibit those inherently beneficial in every Zone that's where you have trouble and that's when we look the plan those are the things we should be looking at are we permitting zones in which certain
inherently beneficial uses should be there all right so I want to Quick turly uh quickly turn when you interviewed me I made reference to this case uh the black whale and the reason that um I want to just this is the case down the
shore in Long Beach Island in Beach Haven where the uh and since you have a lot of lakes and you have a lot of you know Highlands that jurisdictional issues I think this case can help us all in that the court this is the assignment judge which is the highest judge in
Ocean County dealing with water issues and if you recall when the restaurant uh was first opened the uh there was a condition that as far as the docks when someone came in with a boat that there would be a parking space and the uh
board said on your docks you cannot have additional boats on the North side because you only have let's say 10 parking spaces time goes forward and the uh the local Beach Haven said you know some people coming on a boat they don't
need a parking space and they're coming from tuckered in Little Egg uh so it's kind of silly that they have this requirements so the ordinance changed and they eliminated the requirement of parking uh for transient and for docks applicant uh hired our firm we
went before the board it was an amendment to the site plan um and when we went for the amendment uh The Neighbor Next Door was concerned by saying that now if you allow boats to park there it's going to affect my view
uh the smell of the boats the noise so they objected strenuously the board unanimously said look the it's no longer a variant it was put there because of uh an undue burden and if you just quickly
I just want to show you some of the language on the Cas if uh let me go to my just want to direct couple pages on here go to page six this was uh talking about at the
bottom it says uh M the board attorney Mr Shin the an board engineer Mr little advised the board that in their opinion as a legal matter the land use board did not have jurisdiction on the waterways but only on the up land so this is
important in that when you get an opinion by the board engineer the board attorney those opinions the court does look at so uh you know I'm cognizant of you know your town uh if you uh I Don't
Give opinions off the cuff and that uh in order to give those opinions you really have to look at and do research on it uh I will not be giving opinions by just from the I'd like to research it because they have importance the court does look at that if we go a little
little further I'm just going to go to uh page 10 you go to page 10 where the court said the party challeng and towards the first paragraph in the middle the the party challenging the municipal board's decision Bears the burden of overcoming the presumption of
validity and demonstrating that the unreasonableness of the board action now this is spoton and I think this is what the report today uh determined in Sparta that that there's a presumption that what you do is correct you live in town
you know you're so there's a presumption and they have to demonstrate the opposition that you acted unreasonable so again that's the standard the report looks at let's go to page 13 in that case uh the the applicant the objector
the objector said rest toata is Latin for the Justice shall rest rest for resting and judicata for justice so that Justice rest when you make a decision your decision is considered rest judicata you made the decision and that should that should hold and another
board should not uh be able to change that that is the law of the property however if there's are changes to that uh change of circumstance and uh the applicant again down the shore said the board made the determination that that parking space
that they can't use the North Side that's rest udata the court said there was a material change it's not rest udata so if you deny an application and the applicant says I'm coming back uh with a new application
I've taken 100,000 I'm I've taken 100 square feet off the building I've I've added an additional parking space I uh eliminated certain retail I reconfigured the business that is a change of circum
that restu would not apply if they came in and they said after denial we changed the color of the building that's rest if there's a change in zoning how does that factor that would be a
material change in my opinion that requires uh that it would not be rest judicata all right page page 16 uh accordingly it is the Court's conclusion that the recision of the parking requirement not only constitutes
a change of circumstance but also constitutes good cause to permit the board to reconsider the restriction and then the Court's basically saying look it it makes sense it's a good idea you know that there was material change but
also the board was uh should not be restricted from that let me just see I I had gone to page 19 uh page 19 furthermore on the municipal act if no variance this is important if no variance is required the
board must Grant approval to the development application that complies with the designed standards and other requirements of the municipal ordinances and statutes and it goes on to say at the bottom here in this case since there was no other variance required the board
correctly struck the 2002 provision restricting the use of the dock so this is It's kind of if there's no variant there you're you're hard asked if uh uh if if they come in with 10 parking spaces and the requirement of parking is
10 spaces you can't make them do 11 if there's no bance uh and that that just real quick let me see what else like uh oh yeah page 22 uh this is when people threaten you that the Civil Rights Act that you're
not complying with in page 23 due process uh and let's say they say well you did something different for another property and you didn't give me the same review on page 23 due process is a flexible and fact sensitive concept uh
it demands with the uh will be a function of what's reason and Justice required under the circumstance what basically the court said here is just because you granted a variant someplace else doesn't mean that you have to Grant
it some uh at another location you have a lot of power discretion use the function of reason and Justice uh there's a there's a saying that uh we're coming to it I think at the end here yes page 24 government must turn on square
corners that you'll see here right here our court has defined square corners that the government may not a conduct itself so as to achieve or preserve any kind of bargaining or litigation advantage over the property owner if
primary uh obligation is to comport itself with the comp uh compunction and integrity and in doing so government may have uh to forego the freedom of action that private citizens May employ in dealing with one another so if if I'm
dealing with the mark in a mortgage transaction and with two private individuals that is one standard we can negotiate what we want uh that is not the standard in government that we have to turn on square corners ERS and you cannot use personal bargaining or
Advantage you have your ordinances and again I I'll compliment the the two robs that uh Bob that they were saying uh uh that we have this ordinance why aren't we complying with it and that's kind of saying we got to turn on square corners
uh and uh that that was at the end this is one last issue that I thought was in page 25 BL uh it says the plaintiffs were permitted the opportunity to here before the D and the Army Corps of engineer per
uh permitting process and were afforded the opportunity to be heard and argue their legal points so what happened here was the property owner got approval from the D and the Army Corp of engineer because it was in the water so let's say
something's in the pine lands something's in the metaland some's in the Highland wherever and those state agencies Grant approval those notice requirements go to property owns with 200 ft those notices are given
to local government and you had the opportunity to object and what the court said here was you're complaining about noise pollution line of sight the proper party was the D and the Army Court of
engineer that ship have sailed local government only against jurisdiction of the Uplands therefore there was no violation of due process there's no violation that you didn't have the opportunity to be heard you just ignored those notices so in in your preservation
areas uh in the highlands they they have very strict rules if they got in the highlands that's uh and and the municipality took no action shame on you because you do get notice of this right it we're getting a little later that was
my half an hour dissertation and uh there is no test oh I shouldn't have taken notes education's always good thank you can someone give me that booklet pack it yes I gave it to
Dory right thank all right thank you very much that was very informative um we're going to keep moving on uh to the update section uh first is Town Council Mark do you have anything to report oh and there's other well I'll
skip other board business for next yes the CH Council in its last meeting passed uh ordinance section 62 whereby for health self health safety and Welfare they did
not allow additional expansion of the uh of the P PCD Zone um due to traffic on Route 15 so so what they're saying is
that due to health safety and Welfare we can't put any more traffic on Route 15 it's already fall okay thank you that's it um Rob do you have anything for environmental commission um I think we're just
continuing on we have the idea that um I think um that we could try to formalize our applicational review process on our end and uh deliver something a little bit uh
closer to what the professionals deliver uh to the planning board as far as applications go and we can kind of structure it in such a way that it contains all the obvious things that environmental should be advising on you know like environmental assessment uh
lighting plans native plants Landscaping that sort of thing um so that's kind of an in process idea that we're working on but it's going to take some time to get it going all right sounds like a great
idea thanks thank you um the subcommittees we have the minor site plan subcommittee and uh we are up to date right all right so we um I think we have one new one that just
came in so we'll look at that next time but otherwise we are up to date and um we'll have to we did not approve minutes today we we did not have a a quorum for the meeting today but we will get the minutes for the next time uh the other
one is the master plan subcommittee and we have a meeting tomorrow so we're kicking that off again after um a delay and uh we'll be focusing mainly on on the survey so those are the two updates um I'm going to bounce back
because I skipped other board business does anybody have any other board business okay um that'll take us to resolutions we have two resolutions uh to be approved the first is 20255 planning board number 24- 726 Lake
Mohawk MMA um if you had a chance to look at it would anybody like to make a motion to approve that I'll make a motion second seconded is there any discussion hey roll call please
councilman Mark Scott yeah Janette Burke yes Ron day yes Robert Bleckley yes Brian Zimmerman yes Ernie rad yes Vice chairman Robert Otto yeah and chairwoman Joan Ferman
yes okay the next one is resolution 2025 d-7 uh PB number 24- 723 yhk realy LLC also known as pops Bagels uh would somebody care to make a motion for that resolution I'll make a
motion on that one second okay is there any discussion on that one yes okay didn't we decide that this resolution was going to be subject to the Department of Transportation review of the in you know inbound and outbound
traffic there so yes so do we do we no no no it's not saying it's I it's it's they won't be able to do anything till the state of New Jersey gives them a a permit for those driveways for the changes of the
driveways you know final say final they yeah they have to have a final approval from the state of New Jersey matter what we do so okay so they won't be able to do anything until they they get those from from do so then if we pass this and they get
that do approval then they can just start yes okay thank yeah I know I think I was asking some of those questions and they said well it's out of our hands anyway no matter what we decide yeah if you look at uh page eight of the resolution it said the applicant shall comply with all other Outside Agency
permit and approval requirements in according with law state of New Jersey so uh in general it does talk about that um I'm looking if there's anything additional on here it does talk about no left turn it does talk about some other
conditions there were eight nine conditions and again it ends that the applicant shall obtain governmental approval for any other governmental agencies within the jurisdiction related to the property included but not limited to the Sussex County planning board uh
but I think the other uh that I read on number three maybe councilman uh what you were saying the other outside agencies uh if you want and that's not a problem we can very easily clarify uh on number three the applicant shall comply
with all other Outside Agency permits and approval requirements in accordance with law state uh put comma uh more specifically uh the Department of Transportation uh you know I could add that if if the
board so chooses okay yeah can we put that in yes all right could um you amend your motion please yeah to include that amend the motion to include the
wording that do yes for do review okay is the second specifically also amended okay is there further discussion on it I I had one because everybody I found it in the
resolution good good good okay ready for a roll call councilman Mark Scott yes nette Burke yes Ron day yes Robert Bley yes Brian Zimmerman yes Ernie rstat yes Vice chairman Robert
Otto yes chairwoman Joan Ferman yes okay now we moving on to uh what's open to the public for comments on matters not on the agenda and matter m is not related to a hearing on an application for development public want to thank the public for coming out
to that's a no then okay thank you um at this point we uh cut our executive session short uh due to the fact that we had gone over in time and the applicant uh for um from the green was
waiting so uh we want to resume the executive session do I have to read it all again or can we just make a motion to resume make motion okay and we may or may not take action on this um but uh motion to
go back into executive session make a motion second all those in favor I you want the handouts say more than yeah will be done by 10 may or may not e
e e e e e e e e e e
e e sign oh my goodness yes sorry we have one member of the public well we don't know who's listening at home you know people with the weather may just have tuned in you never
know but there are people public is back okay board as the uh chairperson uh stated we're now uh back in the public session uh we had gone into Clos session executive section for discussion of the
board uh planner uh there was a discussion as to the same and uh uh memorializing that discussion there were proposals from uh Lindsay Knight of neglia and discussion of the Katherine
sarm made also your existing planner there was discussion of fees there were discussion of other applicants who were requested who did not submit any uh proposal and in the work session there was a discussion of uh uh placing the
board planner for the Cal the year 2025 to Lindsay Knight of negle engineering at a rate of $65 per hour for municipal board work and uh2
$215 per hour for escrow um application uh funding and then Katherine M sarmed would be uh your conflict planner and also U utilized as
u a sign to her um by the board that was our discussion okay is there a motion to um [Music] approve Lindsay Knight as our board planner and Katherine sarmad as our conflict
planner uh with the way that U Mr poro just read it the rates as stated with the rates as stated I'll make that motion I'm sorry who was the second okay
yes yes Ronde yes Bernie rad yes councilman Mark Scott yes Brian Zimmerman yes Vice chairman Robert Otto yeah awoman Joan Ferman yes okay that concludes today's meeting
if uh you'd like to make anern I'd make a motion to adjourn yeah must you know I did that I did do that good good okay all those in favor good Jenny he's asking me if I opened it