Okay, we're good. Good evening everybody. On behalf of the members of the planning board and our professionals, I'd like to welcome you to tonight's meeting of the Sparta Township Planning Board. Meeting is being held on August 20th, 2025 at the Sparta Municipal Building located at 65
Main Street in Sparta. Proceedings of the meeting are being livereamed on YouTube at www.youtube.com/ at TWW. The time is 7 p.m. and the meeting is now called to order. Please note that no new business will be conducted after 9:30 p.m. and the
meeting will end at 10. Join the board as we proudly of the republic for it stands one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Okay, before the roll call, I just want
to introduce the newest member of our planning board. It's Ergot Bogler and um she is going to be sworn in today by Mr. Poro before we do the roll call. Would you raise your right hand? Uh, do you solemnly swear or affirm that you
will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey and that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the United States and in the state under the authority of the people
and that you will faithfully and partially and justly perform all the duties of the Sparta Council Planning Board as a member according to the best of your abilities. Welcome. Uh just for the record, um Miss Bul uh
Bogler has already uh signed the oath of office and it is duly notorized and it's in order. Dory, you have a copy of that? I do. I have the original here. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Roll call, please. Burke here. Ernie Rystead
here. Brian Zimmerman here. Ron Day here. Chairwoman Joan Ferman here. Councilman Mark Scott here. Bogler here. Vice Chairman Robert Otto here. Celeste Luciano here. Christine Dunar.
All right. First thing we have um coming up are the approval of minutes. Some of these are from 2023 and 2024. So the members who are eligible to vote on some of these minutes are quite limited. Um, the first one I have is the
May 3rd, 2023 minutes. And the only members eligible to do to vote eligible to vote are Ernie, Janette, and Ron. So, would one of the three of you make a motion to approve the minutes? I'll make a motion to approve. Thank you. Okay. And is there any discussion on the
minutes? Victoria, would you do the roll call, please? Uh, Ernie Rex, yes. Janette Burke, yes. Ronda, yes. Thank you. Thank you. The next is May 17th, 2023. Eligible to vote. Janette, Ron, Christine, Celeste, and Ernie. One
of those um persons named be making a motion to approve. I'll make a motion. I'll second. Okay. Well, any discussion? I have some I have some discussion on this one. Okay. Um just going through it. I think there's a couple typos and some blanks in here I think that need to be filled
in. Um for instance, if I look at uh page one, Second to last paragraph mentions Mike Stredder. It should have been Mike from Streddy. Um Ron, if you don't mind me interrupting, I believe you're looking at the copy that I had sent initially. Yeah.
So that was for content only because I hadn't had a chance to Was a new one sent? Yes. When? Good day. But it's in your packet as well. I I didn't have a chance to look at my packet you got here. Yeah. But that was corrected. We we put Mike in there. Um but if you want to continue, I'll tell you what's been correct.
And the same thing on page two. Was that was that correct? There's a blank. M strata. Yes. Okay. Corrected. And then uh halfway in the middle of the page uh where it talks starts Miss Dumbar ask. Um no it's okay. It's okay.
On page four. Uh there's a blank for Mr. Mr. Was his name filled in there. That was filled in. Correct. Um on page I guess two paragraphs down there's a couple blanks. I don't know whose name goes in there. Are we still on
there with a blank? Page four. I'm sorry. Are we still on page four? Yeah. Uh Sean Cely was part of our approach. Start with that paragraph. So if you go to page four on top, sorry. Kathy Evan Nixon was it may have been Mr. Mreda again
said that he did not have a traffic study in front of him. I um I I don't know. That was my problem. But is that is that the spot that has the blank on your sheet? Yes. Then that was filled in with Mr. Mreda. Correct. Okay. And that same so both paragraphs there. Mr. Mr. Correct.
Then on the next page is two more blanks. Motion was made by and seconded by with those names filled in. That was filled in. Well, for the record, what are they? Just give me the paragraph and I'll tell you specifically. It's Well, it's in the new copy that you have.
Yeah. I I haven't had a chance to look yet, but no one cut off for me to be able to look at things on a day of the meeting. What page? Uh page five. What a motion. Is it to go into executive session? Uh let's see.
So on page five, it's a paragraph above says Mr. Collins crafted a resolution to go into executive. Yes. And the motion was made by and it says blank. Motion made by Peter Ski, seconded by Bill Enray. Yes, that was filled in. Great. And then the last page that was filled in
the final sentence. Yes. Okay. Good. Thank you. I noticed something even though I can't vote. Uh just Vivian Pearl Mutter is P P
E R L P E A R L. So if you want to correct that I will correct. Any other discussion? Okay, roll poll, please. Yes. Ronda, yes. Ernie Rex,
yes. Hey, thank you. Um, what's that? April 3rd. Okay, April 3rd, eligible to vote. Janette, Ron, Celeste, and Christine, who's not here. So, be Janette, Ron, and Celeste. Would one of you three make a
motion to approve the April 3rd, 2024 minutes? I'll make a motion to approve. Second. I'll second. Okay. Any discussion on the April 3rd minutes? Hearing none, I'll ask for a roll call. Annette Burke, yes. Ronda, yes. Oo,
yes. Thank you. Next is April 17, 2024. Eligible to vote Ernie, Ron, myself, Janette, and Christine. Would somebody make a motion for April 17th? I'll make a motion. A second.
I'll second. Okay. I have some corrections on that one. Um, if you go to the second page, the fourth paragraph, it says, "Chairman Day asked Mr. Collins for his report.
Mr. Collins referred to his report dated da da da da. Um, Mr. Collins was not the witness. He was not speaking. I don't know who was, but that has to be corrected. If it helps, I went back to look at the tape. Okay. And I think everything in this paragraph
that mentions Mr. Collins should be Mr. Simmons. Simmons. Okay. Dave, what this was about was about your questioning about your engineering report. And the same thing in the following paragraph where um talks about ask for
the records of the ceiling wealth. That's also which I verified on the thing today. Thank you. All right. And then the other thing that I had was the very end where it was the last vote. Um Miss Luciano made the motion. It was
seconded by Miss Burke. Um it has me down as a no. I was a yes. That's all I have. Does anybody else have anything on these minutes? I I have one other thing on page four in the middle of page where um under other
board business, it talks about um the redline version uh being attached to the minutes. Um so it looks like there's an action that has to happen there. I just recommend we take that out and just it's included as part of the minutes. Yes. Okay. Thanks. Included as you know just
as an attach separate attachments. Okay. Anything else? All right. Roll call Dory. Bernie Rice. Yes. Ronda. Yes. John Ferman. Yes. Yes.
Okay. Last we have the May 1st, 2024 eligible to vote to vote Ernie, Joan, and Brian. Would somebody make a motion, please? I'll make a motion. There's a second. I'll second it. Okay.
Um, I had a few changes on this which I gave to Dory and I believe they're changed on the minutes that are now before us. Correct. Thank you. Uh, does anybody else have anything? Okay. And a roll call. Ernie Ragstan. Yes. Joan Ferman. Yes. Brian Zimmerman.
Yes. All right. Thank you everybody. Got through the minutes. Before we go any further, I want to make a statement. Yes. We left the last meeting and we all agreed to get along, move forward, and put our swords down. And I feel like that never happened.
I feel like it actually just escalated. So, I'm going to make a motion to vacate the chair. I'll second gang. just from a I I wasn't at the last uh meeting and the it's interesting
enough in that when you at the reorganization in January appoint a chairperson it is normal that that person continues through the the cycle is it a vested or not to be candid with you in my 34 years I've never seen
the chairperson being challenged and this is a uh second challenge within in the last uh uh month or so and I respect as as board members you have the right to uh these procedural issues. Um,
again, it's it's unusual. Uh, I don't believe that the chairperson has a vested right to it. If you don't have the faith in the chairperson, we are in August. You do have a reorganization in January. Um, so, uh, again, just from my
legal perspective, I believe you have the right to do it. uh whether it in your discussion uh I think the message has been loud and clear and you had a vote last month. So uh I I would just uh
leave it at that. I'm I'm very proud to be part of this board. You have so many great things that you're doing. We have a nice application tonight on the school. We have some discussion on some other ancillary issues. I did give in your package the power of the planning
board because we have a new member and um again I see a lot of positive things. So I wish everyone the best. That's it. Thank you. I want to add a point to discussion. Um I think I don't know if we can I ask
that we go into executive session for this. I don't I don't think that's uh No, that's you know it okay if if there's no disparaging statements. It's just a a vote of confidence. Uh I would ask to keep it uh at that and you're in
discussion. You can have uh discussions. If there's an issue that someone feels is going to lead to litigation uh then that's a different issue. But I represent the board not the individuals. So therefore, from a board perspective,
uh, a board member has made a motion. It's been seconded. You're discussing it, and that's within your power. Just I haven't heard a second, but I would like to know what has changed since the last boarding to now, last meeting to now. That has um I don't really want to put it on public record.
Well, I think it should second. Janette did. Okay. I think it should be on the public record because I don't know what's happened. We didn't have a meeting since um the last meeting. Uh Ron Sorry to put you on the spot. Do you do you think there was one couple
caveats to whether we should go into executive session? There's a legal consideration possibly. Yeah. Mr. Can I can I just there one comment I will make is um we had the meeting our last meeting and the
vote and and it was just a slim majority. may recognize it, but the vote was to give we came up with some recommendations um and to give time for that to happen. So, I don't know what's happened in the meantime. So I don't know nothing what I what I would need I would need to
know what's changed to change my vote otherwise I think I I'm Can I ask can I ask Ron something and uh legal if we're not going executive can I just have a quick
word is that done again I represent the board that uh if there has been a motion there's there's a discussion uh uh if and I would the the chairperson has asked for some
basis. I think that's a fair uh question. Uh and that's where you are. You're in discussion now. If if I could make a suggestion, uh maybe we get through the application, the applicant, uh because to have a new
chair tonight, assuming the vote went one way, I think then uh the vice chair would be Rob Otto would be the vice chair. uh were uh again that the vote would just be uh this discussion carried
until after the applicant because this may go on for a little bit if that's okay. Uh uh Brian with uh so that's my recommendation to board. Let's have the application first, let the chairperson complete it and then uh
maybe we will go into close session uh on it. But as of right now, is there a legal recourse for for being capable of going to close session once there's a motion in a second? I mean, doesn't that vote have to happen before closed session can happen? I just heard Brian say fine. Again, Brian said fine until after the
application. My question is, can can we just arbitrarily go into a close session before a vote happens? We are not arbitrarily going into a close session. To be very candid with you, I've never seen this in my professional career. I am a land use attorney of some 30 years.
If I was the chairperson, I would have pause and I would have litigation concerns. So that is the basis we would go into close session if there is litigation concerns as a board because I represent the board. Uh so what I'm strongly recommending to you is that
this matter this issue be just tabled for a short period of time until after this application because what you're going to create then assuming the vote goes one way we have no chairperson. I'm not sure you can agree on a replacement chairperson. So again I think it's
unfair to the applicant and the public that that we we go through this right now. I I would strongly recommend that we go through the applicant. I think Brian, is that okay? That's right. And then that the second disagreeing with that.
Okay. Okay. Thank you. If if that's okay, board. All right. Thank you. With that, I'd like to welcome the Sparta Board of Education. Um they're ready at the deis. And um I just want to mention that we are hearing about the Alpine Elementary
School. Uh there is a referendum that is coming up. Uh this is only one portion of the referendum. So we are not hearing about the high school, the middle school or any of the other schools. It is strictly the capital improvement plan.
Uh we will not vote our approval on it. We will just recognize our endorsement or so of the project because we don't have the ultimate authority to do that. So we welcome you to make a presentation and we'd love to hear all about the school. And just real quickly for the
record, as the chairperson had said, if you look in the Cox COOX law treatise on page 214, it says um with specific regard to a board of education building proposal submitted to the planning board
pursuant to New Jersey statute 405D-31A and NJSA18A18A-16. The board's role is strictly recommend uh recommendations recommendatory and that's the MDIC uh MUR nicke versus board of education case New
Jersey appellet case from 1989 235 NJ super 255 uh again obviously board if you have site plan issues my experience has been that the applicant uh will look to it uh but again we're making recommendations
and normally what we do is which we did on the storm issue. One of the other resolutions we look to our professionals, our engineer, our planner and uh my experience again has been that those are wellreceived. So that's all I have. Thank you. Okay. Do I hit the button or just talk?
We're good. Does they have to introduce themselves? Do they have to get sworn in then because they are Let the We'll let the attorney go first. Well, I'm just So I just wanted to uh thank you board members for having us tonight and introduce myself. My name is Joe Roselli. I'm the attorney for the
board of education. It's R O L E. And uh you know, I'm here with the district's architect, Alan Barnett. And we're here, as the chair and Mr. Porro said, for a courtesy review of the plans for Alpine Elementary School, which is a part of
the referendum that's coming up in September. There are obviously going to be many more projects related to that referendum that will also come through. Um and we're actually at a preliminary stage right now with this review and with uh the entire project because we
don't know if it's going to move forward or not until the vote for the referendum. But uh some of the things that we have to do on our end with the state and getting approval and everything requires us to come here tonight uh to make meet those timelines. Um so I'm here on the legal end, but I'm
going to turn it over to Mr. Barnett to kind of give a overview of the project and answer any uh questions that you or the engineers may have um while we move forward. So Alan, I'll turn it over to you. Give an overview.
Alan, would you raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth, hold truth, and nothing but the truth of God? I do. Name and business address for the record. My name is Alan Barnett, principal and president of the Carabino Architects, 35 Waterview Boulevard, sweet 305. Mississippi, New Jersey.
And Mr. Bernett, you have you hold a uh license in architecture? Yes, sir. And uh you're licensed in good standing to say New Jersey. Yes, sir. Have you been accepted as an expert in other jurisdictions? Yes, sir. Uh board, I'd recommend you accept Mr. Barnett as an expert in the area of
architecture. They'll accept you. You have the black and white hard copies that were given to you as part of the submission. exact color
versions. I have those here and fingers laser pointers don't really work on your monitors. I'm going to talk and you can follow along what is shown on your screens.
So, as we stated earlier, this project, we're really still in the prelim stages, three weeks out. We're about three weeks out from a referendum vote that the district is asking the taxpayers to vote for
school. The piece only improvements. May I ask that you use a mic, please, for the people at home in the recording? This one. If you're going to stand in front of it, then it has to be the um the remote.
Okay, we good. Thank you. Much louder now. Uh so, as I was saying, the Alpine School addition and renovations is one part of it. Each of the schools is going to receive some work as part of the referendum. Uh I know the engineers all looked at
the project. We're very preliminary at this point, right? We're still I like to call it flying at the 30,000 foot mark until we get we till we get that that vote of approval on September 16th, September 17th. I start the final approach to land in Sparta.
So we will gladly come back meet with authorities having jurisdiction meet with the plane meet with the police department the fire department the uh neglia engineering and Mr. Simmons meet with Mr. is to make sure we
cover all the pieces that they have. At this point in time, the board of education, we don't charge the board of education with that extra cost of doing a lot of the upfront um engineering work if the project is not going to move forward. So, we will
come back. I have some of the comments they're able to address tonight, but some of it won't be address able to be addressed until we know we have a project moving forward. So, with that being said, I'm going to talk about Alpine Edition. It's a 46,625
foot edition, two stories that's going to accomp that's going to uh encompass 20 classrooms. 10 on the first floor, which are going to be uh kindergarten classrooms, 10 on the second floor, which are going to be second grade. As of right now, they're earmarked for second grade classrooms. their
associated associated offices, support facilities, bathrooms, a gymnasium off to the one side and connecting link back to the existing bu existing building. So you'll be able to flow internally throughout the entire
facility now where before it was just through here or you made some exterior connections. So you'll be able to we've cited this so that you can connect back into and and use the balance of the of the facility. The building is situated
in such a way right now. They have the existing bus parking back here. We've put the building in where that bus parking is. And we've now put to the plan left a new 21 space bus drop off parking lot. And on the plan right, a
new 52 spa parking space parking lot which will allow this uh gymnasium to be used well during the day that the the parking will be used for teachers but in the nights and evenings the gym is designed in such a manner that we can close the building down from the rest uh
the the um the gymnasium down from the rest of the building and be able to be used during the off hours for community functions. the site. As I said, we're relocating the bus drop off from this area off to the plan left. We're allowing a better
circulation of bus and and uh parent drop off. Right now, they currently come circulate and come back through. Right now with the proposed the buses will come in queue here and then come right back out through so that the the merge
point will be here and off off the site that way. We are providing an additional as I stated additional 52 spaces back here 19 spaces along here and then we're picking up 28 spaces where they have currently
grass islands. So, we'll be picking that up as impervious as well. Uh, let's see. Off to the plan north, there are wetlands. We've taken that into consideration and we've delineated where the the buffer area is and we are not
impeding into that. Should the project move forward, we'll work with the D just to confirm that we are not uh there are no um ramifications there. utilities. We're going to be connecting to the existing um as again as we move forward.
We know we need the electrical service upgrade because the al existing alpine service is maxed out right now. We know we need that. We'll also look at um uh uh water and and sewer. the storm. Uh
the intention is that the storm will be focused primarily under the bus uh bus parking, but again as the project moves forward, the civil engineer will come on board. We'll we'll meet with Neglia Engineering and we'll get those u make sure we meet the standards of the Sparta
Township. Can we go to Can we go to the next one? Thank you. So, this just gives you a little bit of a larger view of what the proposed addition will be. So, as again, as I said, bus drop off
will have on the left hand side of the plan, we're going to have a a of a plaza, a drop off plaza for the kids to stage before they make their way into the building through the various entry points. This would be a new entry point
here for the students that would come in off the buses and then they would filter down through the existing the existing building. Kindergarten wing on the first floor. We have the 10 classrooms, associated offices, uh toilet
facilities, stairs, elevator, gymnasium, and again that connecting link back into the back into the existing building. Let me go to the next. And I think at that point I'm going to drop
this down. So when we look at the elevation, this is a concept rendering of what what we we would hope the building looks like should the referendum pass. utilizing
brick uh metal panels at this point, metal panels and glass creating this is this is what you would see from that bus drop off parking lot. So as the buses come in, you have this open and inviting twotory stair element. You have the kindergarten on that first floor and
then up on the second floor you would have the academic classrooms for the second grade. Students would make their way through the the entry at the stair or at the entry at the end of the hallway, make their way up through the stair and down through and down through the building. Again, the use of brick,
metal panel, and glass and create an open, inviting uh campus feel for the district with this entry plaza, this excuse, not entry plaza, but this gathering plaza, staging area for the buses. And then if you can go to the last rendering,
this is the other side of the building where we have the the gymnasium. So this is a view from that new proposed parking lot with the gymnasium entrance that could be used not just for teachers entrances, but as well as for weekends and evenings for the community
functions. This would be a view of the of the gymnasium. Again, the use of brick metal panels. Uh we would probably do a uh standing seam roof on the barrel vault glass. This is showing the connecting link back to it. Open
inviting so that you so that you make that nice connection back to the existing some of the renovations that are going to occur. You could go back to images. Nope. Too far down. some of the
renovations that are going to occur in the existing building. Two of the uh kindergarten class current kindergarten classrooms are going to be renovated to have ADA toilets. Uh then two classrooms are going to be renovated to bring
specials off the cart. So what happens currently is art and music are done really on a cart. So the teacher wheels around the music instruments and they reels around the art supplies. They need the the district needed to do that because they needed the space. So this
providing this addition is going to give them those spaces back so that teachers get dedicated spaces back for art and music. Some of the other pieces uh the existing trailers that are let me go back.
The existing trailers that are here they are going to stay but they are going to be repurposed as offices and storage. some of the other projects that are going to occur in the building but really have no no um impact on the from a planning board standpoint. Windows and
door replacement, roof replacement, classroom HVAC, uh electrical service upgrade which I mentioned earlier which would be required for not just the HVAC upgrades but also for the building addition and a boiler replacement.
Uh there was a comment in one of the reports on the schedule. Should the referendum pass in September, we're going to work really hard to get the construction documents done so that July of 26, we can start to have a shovel in the
ground so that come July of 28, we're ready for to turn the building over to the school board and so they're ready for the September 28 29 academic year. And then uh lastly, again, as I stated
at the beginning, should this referendum pass, we'll gladly come back, my myself and my team will gladly come back and work with work with the planning board and work with uh all the authorities having jurisdiction and make sure all your all your u comments are met and
your recommendations are met. And with that, that's that's Alpine's edition. We'll take any questions or comments that Yeah. First, we'll go to our professionals. Um, and I'm not sure who would like to go first. You two can duke
it out. Mr. Simmons. Mr. Simmons. No problem. Uh, just for the record, uh, report that I prepared dated August 20th, 2025. Uh the architect went
through several of the comments and concerns that I mentioned, but I'll just hit a few of them highlighted. Uh I realize this plan is general in nature, but I wanted to bring up several items that I thought would be good for the board to consider and also uh the
applicant. On page two, under item three, site plan, uh they did talk about the estimated time frame just now as far as if the project moves forward, what's involved. Uh, one thing that I know they indicated they would take into
consideration were the comments from uh, the emergency services and what have you with regards to the loop road. I know with the plan that I'm looking at right now with the proposed addition and what have you. They've changed the circulation. There's circulation involved with the buses going around and
it doesn't show up in the text on the screen we're looking at, but I did note that they were proposing widening of the various access drives. So, they did have the ability to have two-way circulation as he's shown on the plan. Uh what's eliminated is basically where the treed
plaza is and the uh proposed addition to the school. that's where the connection would have been for the loop around in the back of the school. So, that's something if it goes forward they may want to talk to the emergency services on. Uh, with regards to lighting, again
realizing this is a preliminary conceptual plan, uh, the one thing I just wanted the applicant to, uh, be aware of, I know lighting is always a big concern with the board uh, for skylow and that type of thing. And when the lighting plan, if it goes forward,
is designed, uh, if they could keep in that that in mind as far as minimizing lights, as they say, less is more sometimes, especially with the residential areas around. That's something I thought would be a good thing. Uh with regards to storm water management, I looked at it and it was
helpful to have the uh transition area that was assumed to be 150 feet shown on the plan and how you basically stayed out of that transition area. And just before the application started, the planner and I were discussing one possible way to mitigate it would be
underground pipes and what have you under the parking lot area. Uh just so the the applicant the board is aware uh periodically the D for storm water regulations will audit a municipality
and a few years ago Sparta was audited and at random they took a couple of the commercial sites for example just up the street here on Main Street and over off Wilson Drive and they double checked to make sure that when the applications were being reviewed that the storm water
regulations were being adhered to and met. So, we're kind of sensitive to that from the standpoint we've already been visited once. We've passed no problem. But I didn't want you to get a false sense of security about that either. So, I just wanted you to understand where we were coming from. Once civil engineer gets on board, we
will definitely work out the storm water management plan and have that review. Good. Thank you. Uh, with regards to utilities, again, I know they're served with Township Water. Uh, I know Mr. Cory Long, the utilities director, did mention that he was concerned that there
would probably have to be a relocation of the existing water man so it wasn't underneath another building or some other infrastructure and again would have to look at what the fire flow requirements or what however you are in that area. That's correct. Uh with regards to the septic system, I
understand you're going to propose to tie this new addition into the uh existing plant. Whether that has the capacity or will need some upgrades as well, I don't know. I'm not sure if you know at this point or not. Believe early on we were told that it has the capacity,
but we would that would be double checked. Okay. So, that's one issue. As far as power goes, you mentioned that the power was already maxed out, so there'll have to be additional power brought in. uh with regards to the architectural plans
for the uh exterior treatment. Again, thank you for providing those slides tonight to give the board a perspective of what the intent for the school addition is to look like. And I know over the years there's been some uh submissions to the board for
solar panels uh be they ground mounted or building mounted on the roof. I didn't know if there was any intent for that for this project or not at this point in time. No. Would the roof of the addition be designed for it structurally? Uh that would be up to the discussion
with the board. If the board thinks that they may entertain solar panels, then yes, it would be designed for that. Okay. And with regards to the elevator and what have you, I I don't know. Is there an emergency generator at the school right now? I don't believe so. I don't believe
would there be one proposed for this addition? I believe it's isn't I think it's required when you put the elevator in. So it it would be and it would and we would work with the district as to what they choose to put on it whether it's just life safety or it's it's more okay. Uh I didn't see any change in the
signage. So uh with regards on page four the environmental impact statement uh there was nothing provided at this conceptual stage but again as the architect indicated they are going to visit with DP to verify that their line
and transition area width that they've shown is correct. That's my understanding. That's correct. Okay. And then I just on finally on a miscellaneous uh listed the various agencies that I thought would have some jurisdiction. And there may be some others with the state board of
education. And as usual, what we recommend that if the project moves forward and is approved that upon completion and asbuilt be provided of all the utility infrastructure especially and all the other infrastructure involved with a project so the township has that on file just
for future use if there's any other expansion. I think that's a great idea. I think I think that's a great idea. And that's my comments at this point, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. Yes, Miss Knight. Um, seeing as this is just very much preliminary, uh, most of my comments are
kind of just going to be food for thought for future submission if the referendum was to go through. Um the first being um during a presentation in the future potentially showing the increase in employees and the ways that the increase employee increase in
employees and parking might change or obviously you have a lot of parking on site. So parking should not be an issue but just having those numbers there um would be important. And then I think some kind of circulation plan not just showing the buses but during kind of like the peak hours of the school for
drop off and pickup um specifically back out onto Andover Road. that I think would be helpful for the board as well to see um kind of the traffic patterns as well. Okay, but that is it. Thank you. If I could just quickly uh uh David Lindsay as far as we're seeing in other
communities security uh and I do see you have one common entrance which is commendable. Uh any issue on the evolution of security at schools? You know, uh is there now an area? Well, we have to we as as school architects, we have to follow the Department of
Education's best practices. So, we probably didn't put it on the rendering because nobody really likes to look at ballards. So, there would be ballards along here that again for vehicular and there would be ballards. There would be ballards along this walk
as well from a vehicular standpoint. Uh the the entrances would be I think they're called well we don't really call you know nobody likes to call them man traps but yeah uh enclosures security enclosures security vestibules they
would be incorporated in the design as well that's all I thank you appreciate it there's a whole other list of things that we could get into for best practices but and then uh just for the record uh we have submitt uh from the tax assessor
having no comment. Uh that's not unusual because property is taxexempt. It's owned by uh government. Uh the next one was from uh Richard Smith traffic bureau of June 19th. He had some comments uh should bring to your attention. I think
the uh board engineer made reference to. We also have uh some comments from the fire prevention uh Thomas McGintry uh of June 16, 2025 and I think the board engineer also made reference to that but if you could keep
that in your sites. We also have um a letter from uh Jennifer uh Chartino, director of health and human services with regard to the project and just her concern on food and the like. If you can uh just keep that
in mind and then we have u as was mentioned by the board engineer Corey Long as to the utilities and that's all part of the record. Will you council were you given copies of those? If not, we'll make sure you get them. Those I say those those didn't cross my
desk. So, I was going to follow up with my staff tomorrow to see um the only the only comments we have are from Cong. The other ones I have I actually have an extra copy of those uh that I made reference to. So, as a
courtesy, I'll just give uh all those to you. Thank you. And make sure I got everything I mentioned. Yes. You can also check with Mr. Eric. Yeah. Okay. Well, good. Thank you very much. Good. You're well.
I have nothing further. Thank you. Okay. Anybody from the deis? I've got a I've got a couple questions. Um first of all, thank you for coming to us tonight and give us a chance to look at this preliminary preliminarily. Um going through the package, I did have some issues not recognizing it was a
preliminary. I think that satisfies it a little bit more. Um, but there was a lot of questions. You know, had this been a commercial applicant, I probably I'd have a hard time going forward with this. Um, I'll give you the big example is I think in the application, you say
no variances are required. But the package itself didn't address that. There were no block standard tables that I saw, design standard tables said this is requirement. This is what we're doing. And that would relate to things like the building height, impervious coverage, off streetet parking, you're
adding a lot of um spaces, but you as a conditional use for schools, there's a calculation that's needed to say based on what we're building, this is the number that are needed. So, what is that number and how does that compare to what's being added? Um,
dimensions for parking spaces, you know, I I think we're all concerned with safety of the kids. There was no dimensions for the sidewalks or anything like that. So I just bottom line is I'm not sure if we're going to get another bite at the apple here, but I think these are things that need to be looked at to asssure there are no variances and
ask you know that that you guys look at that you know very carefully. Okay, we'll do um other question. Did the environmental commission have a chance to look at this and did they comment? I didn't see anything. Yes, we did. You did with any comments? Um
there was a lot of discussion about the ADA compliance which was interesting. Um but we addressed that and uh I think there was questions about the tree line. Uh there wasn't questions about the rear axis. Um I have that
question. Um, there was concern about, again, it was on environmental, but I'm not really sure widening the road. Um, concerns with pre-existing traffic flow. Um, but again, that's kind
of beyond the scope, but that's kind of echoing the same concerns. Um, so, so if there was a memo, I think it'd be helpful if we could get it to to the folks here so they can see what the comments were and possibly address them. Um, I think Dave talked about that, you
know, a lot of there's a lot of new parking areas going so and new building surface. So, you address the storm water already. Um, and I guess the last thing I have is um I believe it was the fire department and the police department talked about a
rear access road. Um, so I don't know if you've had a chance to think about that or or if you want to think about some more. Yeah, we'll think we'll definitely take that into consideration. This is unfortunately this is the first time I'm seeing that letter. So okay so so we will take that into consideration and we will as I stated earlier we will meet
with the various uh police chief and fire chief. Okay so so would the intent be to come back to the board come back to the professionals what what would be the next step? Well the uh the next step would be to come back to the professionals. Okay.
Okay. This is uh well you wanted to talk Yeah. So, this project is a it's a courtesy review because this the school district's not subject to approval, but we're happy to provide any information just for informationational purposes that you're looking for. Okay. And we'll work with anybody that we need
to we want to get this passed. So, so the big thing is just making sure again showing the evidence that there were no variances required in the areas that we talked about. Understood. Thank you. I just have a a question uh regarding the parking area. Was any thought given
to perhaps putting u solar panels above the parking spots? At this point in time, we did not consider solar over the parking or on the building if if the and it's not been factored into the referendum. It's not okay.
Anybody else? Yeah. Um I mean in addition to solar uh something that also came up with environmental was wind generation. just um some small units or you know but uh
in regards to the rear access for emergency I guess I would just say when you have that conversation be mindful of there's a lot of impervious on here. I don't know uh what that would look like. It looks to me like it's a pretty tough
path if you go from the back rear uh car parking area past along the tree line through the wetlands into the waste treatment, you know, to the bus. That's where I'd want to talk to the to the police and fire because if you put the part if you put the the the loop
road right up against the building, you're technically in the collapse zone of the building. Yeah. So I'd want to work with them to see what they would what what they would like and what we can provide for them. So with the engineer here, I don't know if Dave maybe could just provide any
insight as far as is there like not not a temporary but something that would work that would be pvious. I know pvious pavers aren't the answer here, but if they could even go through that wetlands area in an emergency.
Well, the Can you go to the first slide? So, yeah, that tree line if you can you scroll up to show the rear. That's that's the extent of the image. It goes goes up a little bit more.
See on the right there, Dory? So you've got the you've got the the the line delineation here of the wetland buffer. So if we were to connect this to this, we'd have to really play with the I'm sorry to have my back there. Yeah, I'm not suggesting that. I was
just wondering if you but you you you're saying you can't get in that wetlands at all with any kind of I mean we'd have to study that. You know, there's that's a state involved. What is it? The geo the geo block that you can drive over. There's there's um
uh and then we've done we've done projects where we've used pvious paving. Yeah. Actual pvious asphalt paving. So, there are things that we can do to meet the storm water. I don't even know if this state would allow it, but that's what I was curious. Well, one one thing right now, the way
they've got it shown on the slide you're all looking at, they've basically stayed out of the transition area. Yeah. So, they don't need any D permits. At least as far as what we're aware, if there is an access road, right? But if but just looking at it, there are things that they might be able
to consider. For example, there's uh transition area averaging, for example, where the gymnasium is and the basketball court, I believe it is. That's a couple of the closest points to the wetland buffer. And then over on the
uh kindergarten playgrounds, there's a bigger distance, a longer distance to the transition area. What they could do is uh increase the ability to go where the basketball court is by taking some of
that buffer off and adding it over by the by one of the playground areas. Okay, it's a balancing act you could do. The downside of that is they that involves another D permit that they'd have to do, but I'm I'm not going to say it's impossible to do. And they do make
like a turf block that you can put in that uh will basically grass will grow up through it. Uh but it's basically grass and permeable. Uh the only down and it'll support depending on the bedding you use larger weight trucks
like a fire truck. That was the the one thing you have to be cognizant of um where you run into a problem with that sometimes is wintertime maintenance with snow. Um if you're plowing that, uh you have to have a a maintenance department
that understands that's what you're plowing on. You have to treat it carefully so you don't destroy it and dig it up. Those are just a couple ideas. But if the if the basketball court were shifted behind the playground, is that even an option that you guys might consider? Because then
that would potentially free up Well, like I said, we'll definitely sit down and and ac and do what we can to accommodate the and and Mr. Simmons, right? Mr. Simmons. Yep. As Mr. Simmons said, that once the civil
engineer gets on board, then we'll start talking with the D as to what the tradeoffs can and can't be. And also the buffers I'm sure are probably also preliminary. You haven't confirmed the location of the buffers. Brought a civil engineer in very early on just to say, "Hey, where's the
wetlands and then what's the setbacks off of those?" Sure. So they have not been fully confirmed that. Yeah. So that's the other item as well, right? So those are this is still so preliminary. So if you if you notice that I gave myself some some room. Yeah. And they recently changed as well.
So increased or decreased? Increased. Thank you. I don't think I don't think they're going to decrease in taxes ever. It's like taxes. They always go up. Yes, sir. Um Oh, sorry.
How many additional students would this building or this renovation be able to accommodate? It actually takes the students that there's the students that are currently in the building and relocates them. It gets them out of the trailers into the
into the um into the addition and it re reshuffles some students that are in the balance of the building up. But it does project out for some growth in the town. Okay? Because there is an amazing amount of pressure on this town to grow as you
may or may not be well aware. Uh there are uh you know we have a COA obligation. We have uh multif family units that are pressured to go in. I mean, we are, you know, court cases away from, you
know, thousands thousands of additional people in this town, right? We understand that almost almost 3 to 4 thousand and therefore another thousand or two children and you know this is how are we going to accommodate the next school the
next facility I mean is this going to help us um or or are we why are we each of why is this not being why isn't this double or triple the size to accommodate growth okay that gets into a conversation about
what the department of education will accept accept and what they'll provide state aid for. There was a there was a a demographic study that was completed by the district. I believe it was completed twice. That's what the state accepts for for projected growth. So if those
projects are not currently in or the students it's a projected out it can only the the state of the state of New Jersey only accept five years five years of of demographics. after that the the students aren't born or they're not in you know they can't project who's going to move into the community. They can
project and work with the the dem demographer works with the planning board to find out what's in the pipeline but if it's not an approved project they can't take that into consideration. So all that goes into into consideration when we when we work out the design and what we submit to the state because the
state will only approve state aid for projects that the demographer can justify and the numbers that the demographer can justify and that's only for five years. After that they say the kids aren't born yet which makes sense right if you're if if you're looking at
what's coming into a school system. So to get so the state will allow you to build whatever is what they won't give you in state aid is really what it comes down to because you have to be able to justify it. So it but we don't know what's
ultimately coming for Sparta. Correct. We know there's intentions for Sparta but we don't know what's truly coming. Each of the buildings have spare capacity based on the functional capacity standards that's been determined by this the department of education. So they can absorb and this
would allow also for spare capacity to allow to absorb. I know you're asking the voters for some 55 million I believe it is. How much state aid will be coming this way? 16.9 million. 16.9 million. So that's 30% is what
you're saying. Uh yeah they're actually asking that but right I was going to say the entire project would be 70. Yeah, it's it's closer to closer entire the entire referendum is closer to 80 million. You're getting 16.9% state aid. So you're it's
without that we have to ask taxpayers for the full amount which is what we're trying to avoid obviously. I has the board I mean I I just go back to that point again. Has the the board of education taken into account the the
pressure to grow for Sparta? I mean why you know we might be going back to the This project to the this project goes back I'd say at least three years where we've studied sites that the board owns. We've studied sites
that the town owns. We've studied options to to build at each of the schools. We've opt looked at options to build a brand new school. So we've and this is what the district has determined is the best the best solution with the
information that's available and after they've done after they've looked at all the various other options in the township. So, the district has looked at and taken into consideration the pressure to to
grow in Sparta. Thank you. To piggy back off of that then you said that it's been in the works for three years and it was a fiveyear projection. What census are you working off of? The demographic report was dated June
24th, excuse me, June of 2024. And that's when we started the designs for this. When we had actually went to the state, the state actually used a a a higher enrollment projection than the demographer. So we the state actually uh
has a different number than what the demographer based on more current enrollment numbers. So it was 2024 estimated and it projected what up to 2029 I believe so. Yes. Okay. Um, and if this population does
increase and you do need something in the future, where have you thought about where it would go on this particular site? Is there the ability to build a second story on some of it or would you expand more into some of the areas that are now I don't even know where you
would expand, but what what are your thoughts on that? We did not go beyond the projected the five-year projection. Uh there are you can look at putting a second story on buildings. It gets very uh costly and
very in our in my experience very costly and very time consuming and it's a displacement. It's a more of a displacement of the students that are underneath you know while they're they're erecting the the structure. Um it is a it is a solution uh that
could be looked at in the future but this we felt this was the best uh solution that addressed the needs of the district based on the information that was that was projected out. What other options are there
uh as far as for this site? Yeah. Oh, off the top of my head, uh we could expand out into the into the depending on where the storm water goes, but we could expand out into the bus parking. We'd have to relook at the bus where how the buses get treated. We
could go off the other direction off where the parking lot is to the to where the parking lot is for the gym. I mean, a lot a lot of that is it's very speculation, right? Right. Just you're kind of hit me with it. Uh where the trailers are, we could look to maybe
build along that area um should the need should the need arise. But we'd have to and I would want to then look at I'd want to look at the the entire district as a whole again. Just want to, you know, make sure that there is some flexibility in this and that just don't get locked in. Right.
But I had another question. I'm looking at this. It's look there at the very top the kindergarten classrooms where they're pink. And then you said at the end there were bathrooms at the bathrooms closest there's bathrooms closest to the gymnasium. So the kindergarten classrooms will not have their own bathrooms.
Uh Department of Ed standards require that they have their own bathrooms inside the classrooms. So, so each of the kindergarten classrooms have to be thousand square feet, 50 square feet included for a back. Okay. So, they will be there. Yes. Okay. All right. Um, and I had one other question somewhere. I read that the
gymnasium is going to be a high school type gymnasium. What is the rationale for that? I mean, since they're K through two. And just a clarification that it's not when we say a high school type, it's going to be basketball court, the high school court size
as opposed to an elementary school size. This gives the the district as well as the community better opportunity, better functions to allow more because not just can they do one long court, they can break it and do do two short courts. When we talk about when we talk about
high school size, it's really high school court. Uh the plan shown very small on this, but it will have some bleachers, but not like uh like the HP Sparta High School bleachers when we you know, so when you think high school high school gymnasium, you're probably of
that magnitude. It's really just the court size and some additional area, the runoff area and the side areas are a little bit bigger than they would be for an elementary school. Would it be limited to the K through2 population or would you have high school or middle school coming down there to
have basketball games since it is that kind of court? That would be at the discretion of the board of education. That all I had was Can I piggy back off of something that she just said? Uh it sounds like the gym
would be capable of having more than one gym class going at the same time. It could. Yes, because you can you can subdivide the you can sub this gym of this size can be subdivided. So it'll have that it'll have that mesh and curtain that would drop down in the
middle and you could also then run two courts if you if it's for basketball. You could run two courts on either side as opposed to the one long court. You follow you follow me? So you could also have multiple kindergarten classes, multiple first grade classes, multiple second grade
classes all having little gym uh at the same time. Sign of this is right now the gymnasium that they have now is actually called a cafetum is really what the the term of the existing multi-purpose room they have. They have assemblies, lunch, gym,
everything happens in there in one in one day. Well, it it's very difficult to have gym set up for lunch, break down from lunch, clean from lunch, get back to gym. This allows the cafeterium to be truly just a
just a lunch room or a assembly space. The gym the gym classes would now happen in the proposed gymnasium. And just one more thing, during this construction period, how long will construction period take? About two years. Two years. And what about the Kids who
are in classes during that time, how will they be separated from everything going on? Will this occur during the school day or after as I've said at some of the public forums? It's not going to be an easy task. There will be disruption. It is a construction site.
The consu uh there is a construction manager that's been brought on board by the board of ed as well as myself and my my team. My team special or my firm specializes in education construction. So that's that's pretty much all we do. So we will work
with the construction manager and the contractor once the bidding comes in and we will put in the construction documents where the construction fence goes, where the access gates go, where the times of deliveries go, come and go and when the when the contractors will enter and exit the site.
One of the nice things about this is it is separate is separate from the building. Sorry, it is separate from the building. This grouping here will will It will be disruptive to a certain extent. We'll have the two summers uh summer of 26 and
the summer summer of 27. No. Yeah. Summer 26 27. Yeah. And actually a little bit of summer 28. By then a lot of the disruptive work will have stopped by the summer of 28. And it's really just finishing touches on the inside and some exterior work.
The intent is that summer of 26 shovels are in the ground. Excavation happens. foundations, the larger disruptive work happens at that point. Then as you get into the school year, unfortunately,
uh uh it it's it's it is a construction site. We'll try and make it as peaceful as we can. Uh we can work with we can work with the contractor on fencing, whether it has the the the wind barriers, you know, things like that to eliminate, but it also is an opportunity
for the kids to kind of, you know, they can kind of see what's going too. It's interesting for the kids to see cranes and steel and and but it's it's always our job and our professionals to maintain the safety of a site for a school for this for the kids of the of
the district. That's that's the number one job when we set foot what we call you know we'll call boots on the ground. Then of course I have you know one other question relating to the health and safety of these the kids K through two. Um, you'll have a lot of construction
people coming in and out of the site. How will they be vetted? Uh, we can ask for background checks and we will ask for background checks on all the employees that will or excuse me, all the contractors and subcontractors that will set foot on the job site and that'll be throughout the district too. That won't be just that won't be just
for Alpine because we will, as I said, we will have other projects going on at all the buildings. So, all the contractors will be required for background checks. I have one more thing continuing on that safety uh thread um and you may have
touched it when uh upon it when uh Mr. Porro asked but in terms of safety for the children in the event of you know god forbid um a shooting or a shooter what's the architecturally what's what's the design for the classrooms?
Well, the the design of the classrooms uh have they they'll have the lockdown functionality so that should they go into a an emergency procedure, the corridor doors will be able to be locked,
we're really getting into the nitty-gritty of this, but this is based on my experience and what we we will give the board options to choose, right? uh key fob access, lock down uh scenarios, uh automatic on the doors, um
uh the glazing on the first floor. This goes back to what Mr. Po asked about safety procedures and best practices. Uh first floor windows need to be bullet resistant. They they're not required to be bulletproof, but they're required to be impact bullet resistant. There's a
big difference between those. Um that's that goes back to the best practices. So everything from certain that really we just do the first floor down. Um we have the security vestibules, we have the uh we have the ballards for vehicular. Uh
that's that's really the big three. The other thing I'll add to that is once the board decides what security measures they would want, we wouldn't publicize that. Nobody would have access to that because you wouldn't want somebody knowing exactly what they have. So get around but it certainly will. There's a
department of ed requirement and things of that nature that we would have to address. Okay. Thank you. Anybody else? Uh yeah. Go ahead. Um the June 2024 demographic report, um
what census was that based on? 2020. States here. The 2020 census. It is okay. And just to to piggy back on that, um since we were thinking along the same lines, um I I just wanted clarification. I
think you had mentioned that um the state used a higher demographic number than than what was presented. Do you know how much higher? Don't think that in this book. I apologize. It was it was when it was when we were submitting to the state when we originally submitted uh there's a
there's a thing called the long-range facility plan. We have updated the long range facility plan and we put in the enrollment numbers that the demographer uh projected out. The state came back with a comment and said they they they have these numbers. I don't I don't have that in front of me and I don't I'm
sorry I don't have that in this book. Okay. I also have um couple of questions about the storm water. Have you thought about putting a green roof instead of putting storm water management on the ground or under the ground? Have you also
considered putting a green roof on the addition? Uh at this point in time we have not. Uh my firm has only done one green roof in the history of our in the history of 30 years. So uh we have not looked at for
this school. It becomes it becomes a little bit of an issue of maintenance too and the added load to the building increases the cost of the structure. Okay. We have not looked at it for this. Okay. What about the addition of rain gardens? Uh, we have not, but you know, that's
something that we that we could look at. Okay. Yeah, that might have been some Sorry, just hop on that. Uh, environment environmental um I think brought up rain gardens and just native plant, but when you get to the landscape plan, those are
just kind of things Okay board, you have before you an an application for your review by recommendation of a uh Alpine Elementary School uh addition and renovation. It was presented uh by the board attorney
and also the uh uh board retained architect. The record reflects that there was a uh expert report by way of uh Pello and Associates through David uh and his report of August 20th, 2025 was
placed on the record as well as uh Lindsay's report through Neglia of August 18th, 2025. In addition, the uh committees and uh subgroups, those uh reports and memorandums were also given to the
applicant and are all part of the record. I believe it would be proper uh for the board to give an endorsement subject to those uh recommendations or you can give no uh no endorsement and just make reference to those comments.
So, whatever the board feels comfortable with. What does the board feel comfortable with? Just a general question. Does the public get a chance to comment on this at all or the public will comment at the referendum? Okay.
Thank you. I got a postcard that there was a public hearing on September something or other for Alpine. You want me to speak to that? Yeah, there's there's been a number of Right. September 9th, I believe it's September 9th, there is a public forum,
information forum and it's gonna it's going to be at Alpine and it's uh it's more of a information session where you can sit down with the the financial uh I will be there answering questions about anything on the referendum from an architectural
standpoint, financial uh tax impact. Uh we'll be able to to address that. uh the board members will be there to answer questions about uh the impacts on indications from a board standpoint. Uh and we welcome we welcome
everyone in the community to come and attend and if they have questions we'll gladly we'll gladly spend the time and and talk you through it. I was wondering today if there are at that session or prior to or after it
would there be any ability to tour the facility as it is now at that session. I mean I don't think I you know 97% of the population has probably never been in this building. Well I have no idea what the number is but 90% of the population may not have been in this
building. Right? So we don't know what the pressures are that are on the schools and on the students because of the age of the property. That's part of the information session as well. Okay. Not just speak to the professionals, but you can tour the facility. You can I
don't I don't want to speak for the superintendent, but if you can go out back and see where it's going to go, and I'll stand out there and go, "Yep, it's going to be about here." Um, but yes, there will be an opportunity to tour the existing building. Okay. But once again, the delta the
change of students that you're thinking is is minimal. Okay. If you would, I saw the superintendent wanted to step up. If uh would you just stand, sir, please? As long as to tell the truth, hold truth, nothing but the truth, love God. Name
and uh just your title for Hi, I'm Matthew Beck. I am the superintendent of Sparta schools. I saw you get up and I just thought you may want to say something. Um I mean really um Allan did a really good job of covering it. Um the
I've been in the school district now. This is my I'm entering my fifth school year in the in the school district and um right from even in the interview process that was this was the main concern that was brought to me and it's been a main concern since I've been superintendent is the overcrowding at
Alpine Elementary School. So, um, we, as Allan said, we went through a lot of different options as an as an administrative team, as a board of education, uh, talking with our architects, what could be the best solution for this. We ruled out many things. Um, and we arrived at this as a
solution. Um, we feel that, um, this is the best solution for Sparta schools. um all if if there was going to be right now there's an overcrowding at Alpine School but that uh when that bubble moves through the system each of the other
schools is below capacity meaning they can absorb 100 200 more students. Um so the bubble that exists the overcrowding that exists is exclusive to Alpine Elementary School at this time. Um and to Allen's point we can only make plans and projections based on the demographic
study unfortunately. Um, and part of that demographic study at the time was applications that were on file for future development. And at the time of that, there were no applications on file. I'm not sure today what applications are on file, but if applications come through and uh
developing happens in Sparta Township and you're talking about thousands of units or thousands of families, uh we're going to be looking at more we'd be looking at more overcrowding in all of the schools and there would have to be a much bigger solution. Okay.
All right. Then can I say one more thing? Sure. I'm I'm very happy to see that this plan brings music and art and gym back into dedicated spaces because K through two
are critical formative years for our kids. Yes, fully agreed. And so the what they learn here and the experiences that they will have the opportunity to gain here
are they're going to follow them throughout the Sparta school system whether whether they go to Sparta Middle School, Sparta High School, if we lay the right foundation for them
here, then they will have a leg up and a lot of kids don't have that. So, all right. So, since this is still evolving and it's not a final site plan and it will undergo changes, would it be
prudent then to make a motion that we support the expansion of the Alpine School without being being very specific on it? Do you have that? Look, you're making recommendations and uh whatever you're comfortable as a board
and even if if you want to make individual statements, but if uh there's nothing wrong with someone moving and seconding a motion in support of the application subject to the discussion and the reports we that we submitted. Okay, then that would be the motion.
Would there be a second? I'll second that motion. Rob Otto. Okay. do a roll call. Who made the motion? Who made the motion? Ken did. No, Ken did not make the motion. Ken frame Ken frame the motion. The motion make the motion.
The motion uh that uh the chairperson Joan is putting forth is that uh in support of the Alpine Elementary School expansion uh subject to discussion on the record here today, the written reports of the board engineer, the uh
board planner, and the different agency memos that were set forth. And again, the discussion, the constructive construction that was just discussed as far as, you know, rain barrels, the environmental possible uh solar panels and all those positive things, the police comments, the sanitary, the
utilities, all those comments are part of the resolution. Okay. And then Rob, you seconded that. I did. Okay. Now, may we have a roll call? Get Bogler. Yes. Net Burke, yes. Ronda Day, yes. Celeste Luciano.
Yes. Ernie Ragstad, yes. Councilman Mark Scott, yes. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto, yes. And Chairwoman Joan Carman. Yes. Congratulations and best of luck development. Thank you for the presentation.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Uh if we could board, just uh real quick just to move things along while uh council and his group are u packing up. Uh I did submit since we have a new board member just for in
information uh the powers of the planning board that's New Jersey statute 40 colon 55D-25 the highlight in yellow is mine uh just highlighting some of some of the areas that we have the power of obviously the
master plan subdivisions you see official tax maps and it goes on and you know the capital improvement program we saw that that's a resolution in your package variances of certain buildings again a subdivision that's number six that's another um resolution in your
package so when someone says it was pursuant to the power 40 col 55D-26 and they make reference to a subcategory in parenthesis 5 this is the black letter law that we're looking at also it's of interest you look uh that
section B the planning board may and and may is is a good thing because we're discussing land use. You may participate and prepare and review programs or plans required by state or federal law or regulations. You can assemble data uh as
to plan uh continuous planning process and perform advisory duties. I mean you come across things you see on applicants and you can advise the governing body of that. You cannot implement law yourself. you are uh we have your power to
determine as the planning board but again you have certain advisory power that's set forth there. I realize I also gave you the board of adjustment uh powers just so you have kind of a feel. The planning board are permitted uses.
So when applications come before you, it's presumed that they are they are permitted and that you work with the applicant. If obviously there's u parking charts or storage uh size dimensions, public health safety and
welfare issues, you have concerns that you have the legal right to deny those applications. Uh but a lot of times with a permitted application, I've seen this with this board, you try to work with the applicant that they amend the plan for public health, safety, and welfare
versus the board of adjustment, which is nonpermitted. Uh and those are considered use variances. It's a much higher standard of review. Uh also in your package I had given you um the resolution and I apologize for the delay
on that capital improvement that was again under your powers more advisory. I I only did a a one page. It was very uh uh straightforward on that waste treatment and it just makes reference to
report of uh David and also I'm going to add that I believe that Lindsay did a report also. So, uh, if we could, uh, lady chairperson and the board, if I know we have some other discussions, if
we could pass the resolution for the capital improvement plan. Uh, and I the only addition I have to that is adding a reference to Lindsay's report. So, this is the, uh, the one again, I apologize
that was a late um, edition. Again, we're just making advisory. Uh if you'll see here, you're reviewing capital improvement programs is section five of your powers. It was in your package on the day. All right. So, this goes under
resolutions. Resolution 25-17 PB25-732 Sussex County Technical School uh capital improvement plan for the wastewater treatment plan replacement. Uh, would somebody entertain make a motion to approve that resolution?
I make a motion we approve the resolution. I'll second. Okay, roll call, please. I'm sorry. Who is that second? That's Celeste Luciano. I don't think you're eligible. I don't see you listed on here. The capital improvement for the
wastewater. I thought I was there. I'm sorry. I'll remember this if need be. If it's less eligible, we'll leave her. If not, you just raise it back up. Bernie Rystad, yes. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Ron Day, yes. Councilman Mark Scott,
yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto, yes. And Chairwoman Joan Ferman, yes. And the other resolution that we have here is the resolution 2025-18 PB25-733
LJL Investments LLC. That was the one on Konos Stoa Trail. Yes, that'll Yes, that was the subdivision. pretty straightforward. Uh that creating three lots and uh if you recall there were no bulk variances. Uh pretty straightforward. The board
engineer and board planner had good comments on them that were agreed to by the applicant, you know, uh by way of if they do come in with an application that does require a variance on the home, they have to come back before this board or the board of adjustment. So, this is
a pretty straightforward uh resolution um memorializing your June 18th determination and you can see clearly rec uh referencing the board engineer planner and those other uh subcommittees uh approvals. So, if someone would move
that motion, please. I'll make the motion to approve. Celeste Luciano. I'll second it. Ernie Reich. Okay. Roll call, please. Ernie Ragstead. Yes. Brian Zimmerman. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Yes. Celeste Luciano. Yes.
Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. And Chairwoman Jo Ferman. Yes. Person I have uh disclosed. I'll also um Oh, yes. Ronda Day. Sorry, I don't have you listed. So, but you were here.
Oh, no. I wasn't. I was. That's I don't I'm sorry. That's a terrible point. Thank you. When you watch those videos, you feel like you're Yeah. So, uh, lady chairperson and, uh, board, that, uh, brings us back to the, uh, motion issue. There was a re, uh,
request to go into close session with regard to the cannabis. Uh, that can happen or if you want to carry that, that's possible. But I, but I do think, uh, it would be timely now to revisit uh, the motion. There was a motion and a second and a discussion on the
chairperson. So, the discussion should continue. discussion. Yeah. I'd like to ask Brian what what's happened between last week and this week, Brian? What has last changing? Yeah, between last meeting and this week
memos, some other things came to light. There's some back and forth. Um, I'm really not here to play referee. I'm not volunteering my time to be a referee, but I feel like this board is so divided, it's become toxic, and I think
we need to change just like Ernie had said. You mean the memos that have been coming from the mayor in his frontal assault on in his frontal assault on Joan Furman because he didn't get his way with cannabis?
Is that what it is? No, it's not because it's created such a toxic environment that this board has become so political. All right. The ship needs to be writed and go back to what we're supposed to be doing. And we're going to write it now and then and then we're going to have an election
in the fall and if and if Celeste wins, then we'll have to change it again. And then we go into to January and we change it again. I'm not a referee. How does that work? I'm not trying to choose sides here. It's just not the environment we should have and I think we should switch it up.
Well, I think Joan Ferman is the best best planning board at best planning board attorney, best planning board chair that we've had in in in a long time. She does all the research. She does all the work. She's on top of it. She's very organized. She's does the the best that she can for
the town of Sparta. And that's what we're here all here to do. Not to play games, not to be play. That's what I feel like is going on is a lot of games. Okay, that's what the way I feel. Well, I would hope that there's not a lot of games at the planning board level. There's a lot of games going on
in in in the mayor's office, but there's I I guess that I'm not a referee and I'm not picking sides. I just see what's going on back and forth between all of you and I I don't want to be a part of it. So, let's switch it up. All right. Well, I'm going to address some of this here because you're
referring to the memos. You brought that up. Um, and that's really what kicked all of this off and that memo um started. I'm going to go through, you know, my side because I've taken your bullets whether you realize that or not. We have voted 90 regarding the original
um cannabis um ordinance and we made a recommendation to the town council uh with 10 different recommendations. They were totally ignored. Um you're all aware of that. um when it was brought up that it didn't
they did not follow the language of the p the statute and that the vote was uh problematic. Uh that's when all of this started that um came up like in May 13th. By May 27th, Neil Clark, the
mayor, uh wrote a letter saying it was on behalf of the town council. Town council never came to town council. Never came. Stop. This is a war that is being waged that I do not want to be a part of. Let's come to the board. I'm gonna have to step down then
again if if I could. The a motion was made at second. We're having a discussion. Uh Joan, if you could, you know, kind of condense the your position. Well, no, I think this is very important. I think we need to talk about this
because as I said, I have taken all of your bullets. Um, I did nothing wrong. So, after this, all of a sudden, it became a personal vendetta. And on May 27th, there was a letter, 11-page letter that came out and accused me of three
things. One is of using my position to ask a question about a personal matter. And as I sent in the letters to you, it said, "Dear Dory, I am writing as a
private citizen. I never used my professional capacity." And this was something that was going on long before I joined planning board. And I wrote that way. And Neil turned it into something else. Totally. He takes certain statements and he just turns
them into things that would suit his purpose. So on June 4th, I got called in. Um Neil was acting as the township man um manager. Again, town council really didn't have a part of any of
this. Um Jim Zep sat there. Neil took over. That was not his responsibility. We have a Faulner form of government. And um he can preside over town council meetings. He can sign documents on the town council's behalf. And he can officiate marriages. He cannot step in
as the town manager and do all of this and say, "Oh, I'm conducting an investigation." When in fact, no investigation was made. I have every right to represent myself. First of all, uh something like that would never come to the planning board. It's a residential application. If it did, I
would have recused myself, but I have every right to represent myself. For him to take that statement and turn it around as something I did wrong is wrong on his part. Um then he also in the letter he sent to you said that um I was doing something with the C1H zone
because of Mark Scott's bed and breakfast. Well, we've been talking uh design standards and the C1H zone infant item. Uh had nothing to do with that. In fact, at the me the first meeting Lake Mohawk had bed and breakfast was still in there. The second meeting they have
where it came out, I wasn't even at that meeting. I wasn't there. I knew nothing about it. Yet he took that statement and he turned it around again. To be fair, just interject. I brought up C1H. Exactly. So before because I was frustrated with design standards.
Right. And we've asked for design standards. The board's asked for it. We went to um environmental uh with the um um lighting. No, no, no. The uh master plan the other day and they're talking aesthetics and we need to do something about it. the
zoning board the other day, Glenn Keane, said, "Isn't there a subcommittee working on this? I thought we were going to do this. This has to come from the forefront. If you have master plan money, it should be used for this purpose. Let's step it up. We're hearing it right and left from everybody." So, we wasn't there a letter from uh zoning
actually about design standards, working with them. Um yeah, something else, but yes. Um so, you know, we voted as a board 90. Ken wrote the letter. It went up there. Mark brought it up, gets shot down, um then
comes up with another reason which um is ridiculous. But everything I've done, I've represented this board. I've represented all of you. So, I just want you to know that whatever you decide, I don't care. I'm pl I'm glad to be a planning board member. I try to always
do my best and I do what I think is best for this board. And the conflict is not from me. I went into those meetings saying, "What can we do to move forward?" Instead, I get the attacks. I said, "What can we do to move forward
again?" And it it just keeps happening. Then he inserts himself into our executive session meeting. He was not invited. He said he was taking the township manager's position. He's not allowed to do that. He's just not allowed. So, he has really a misuse of
power. He um has had, in my opinion, his own ethical violations where I have had none. things he accuses us of of spending money, not us. So all the things that are happening are targeted. They are
targeted to having me resign. I don't know if you're comfortable in saying what has happened to you, but uh that's up to you. But it has been happening and it is all targeted and you can blame me, but I tell you it is not me. So, as you can see, as you've seen in the in
the latest memo that the uh mayor has sent and that was distributed to the to the group, right? That's what continued it. I didn't continue it, right? Uh you know, he's not only targeting Joan, but now he's coming after me. And back on June 23rd, I was
uh I think that was the day June 23rd, the the the ZEP's office, that meeting, all that. The June 4th, I don't know. I'm sorry. Maybe a different one. Yeah. Okay. It was the day of the day of the meeting uh in Jim Zep's office that you
that you attended. Um you know, later that day I was I was blackmailed by certain people in in the in the government that that said that if you don't get Joan Furman to resign by the end of the day, we will be filing ethics charges against you, Mark Scott.
So, I mean, this is the kind of politics that's going on in this town. a part of it. Okay. Well, they resigned. All right. The problem is not Mr. Porro. Mr. Porro, could you please get this meeting under
control? This is a public this is a public uh forum and there is a motion in a second. There is a discussion. Uh and uh you know, Mark, you have the ability to make your statements. if we can just keep it
focused on the motion. Uh if there are five votes to remove the chairperson, the person is removed. If there are not, they're not. So I think everyone has put their position on the record. Uh the vote is going to be what it is unless
you have something more because I would like somebody to say what I have done that is unethical that is not in the best interest of the planning board or that I have caused. I would like to say one thing um and and
this is not in in terms of of ethics or what have you. This is in terms of the board and what's best for the board. Right. And Mark, I have said this to you. knew you and I have had a private conversation about this when I approached you and I asked you what we could do to try to remedy some of these
issues and I asked you if we could all sit down and have a conversation and really just get to the meat of what the issues were so that the board could go back to being a quasi judiciary which is what we are I am I'm going to share it right now
right now. So what ends up happening is that when we're in this situation and the news is about one or two things or one or two people, we lose our integrity. And when we lose our integrity and we lose our ability to keep our objectivity,
whether that's in our own personal space, which obviously there's derision in our own personal space, or by the view of the public, one way or another, when we lose that objectivity, we become inert. We're ineffective. So the question then becomes, how do we remedy
that situation? Now I know if I were in your position, I would be just as upset as you. Not saying that I wouldn't be. Not discounting you, not discrediting the work that you're doing. I do have some reservations on what's going on with
minor site plan subcommittee and why Ken Porro is actually sitting in on those meetings and how that budget is being because there is no budget for minor site plan subcommittee. So how that's being paid for. I have questions about that. But again, that's something that we could have had in a conversation if
we had been capable of sitting down and having that conversation. But apparently the words that I had put out there fell on deaf ears. So here we are. And the question then becomes, do we continue on the path that we're on, or do we find a new path that can put us in a position
where we can get back to our objectivity and our integrity and let the news be about the good works that the board is doing as a board and not about what even even if all that's happening and and this may be 100% true. I'm not you. I'm
not sitting in your seat. It may be 100% true that you're being used as a political pawn and this is political fodder. If that's the case, let's remove the ammunition. If we remove the ammunition, they can't continue to do that, can they? That's the point. So, if
we can get back to a space where we can get our objectivity back, get the public's opinion back, get ourselves back to doing the good work that we need to do, I think that puts us all in a better position instead of the derision that's here. It's it's just it's
uncomfortable at best. Well, it's not I'm just the pawn in all of this. I'm not disagreeing with you. Facebook, I stay off of all of that stuff. I don't create it. We know who was creating. I'm not sitting here saying that. I just think that the current environment is
toxic. As as I said, and you think this is going to change, then so be it. So, yeah. As I said, it's up to you. I'm proud to serve on the planning board. I will continue to serve on the planning board and um
that's all I have to say. But um it has been a an attack for no reason other than the cannabis and uh then let us protect you. So, it's been it's been a frontal assault
because we voted nine to nothing to put forth 10 items about why we didn't believe that the CA the cannabis aligned with the master plan and we pointed out 10 things and it was total.
We all did. We were unified at that moment and it went to the town council and it was ignored. And we're asking why it was ignored. Why has this happened? Why is it being ignored? Is it being done for some political reasons at the
at the at the mayoral level? It was totally ignored by the mayor. And then when he didn't get his way, he began to attack Joan personally. And then when he had then when his efforts were starting to fail, he decided to come after me. So
I mean we we can go through it over and over again. Let's not again. We understand Rob Lee. Rob Lee was removed just because of the cannabis issue. As Neil said, we need will throw a bone, right? We need to throw a bone. And so
they threw him robely because he was fighting cannabis, too. He wants to keep this town the good town that it is, the enigma that it is. Referendum to make that decision. Right. Every Sparta voter will get a chance. And and our and our mayor has said over
and over again that he is is is not necessarily going to obey what that may be true, but that's outside the motion that we have right now. Nothing to do with the mayor. All right. All of that is outside the motion that we have right now. All right. So, can what I'd like to do,
guys, guys, um I'm just saying a motion has been made. Um I'm echoing it's been seconded. I'm echoing a lot of what was said, I think, in that we're not happy with how it was. I would like a reset. I would
like to ask Mark and the mayor um to, you know, kind of do what I think Brian's saying is none of us want this this I hate politics. This is terrible. So, can we move forward and actually get
something done? Because if if we can't on on town council as well, I would urge town council, you know, we they were elected to serve us and we're serving we're losing sight of who we're serving.
We're serving the town and right now we're not getting anything done but just airing dirty laundry that most people who are watching this aren't even going to understand. So I would just urge that whatever changes may be made that we
make them and then continue in good faith starting now. I don't care what happened before. Let's just reset if we're truly resetting cuz I'm sick of these little schemes. I hear you. Loud and clear.
Okay. So, we have a motion in a second. So, we're all sick of it. We're all sick of taking this pressure. I think we're we're at the point, Mr. Porro. I believe we're probably at the point of a roll call. I believe that would be that'd be proper unless anyone else has anything else to be said.
as the person who was appointed by the mayor to take the place of Mr. Blekeley. Um, I would like to say that I read the memo that went out on July 23rd.
Tonight was the first night that I met anyone here except for Mark Scott, who I've met a few times. It is my understanding that for all of us
that when we are in this position of being members of a municipal board and we are public facing that we have to be extremely careful of what we do in private
and just writing on an email. I'm writing in a private citizen capacity. That that doesn't really cut it. That does just because you're saying, "Oh, I'm
writing as a private citizen." When you're writing to the attorney of the planning board, you have we all have access through this position
to people that the general public does not. So we have to be extremely careful when we are sitting up here that we should think twice about going out and collecting signatures
for anything because we are tasked with being impartial. We are tasked with being fair. We are tasked with giving anyone who comes before this board or the minor
site plan committee a fair hearing and things like emails and getting petitions signed. That in my professional judgment
that is a slippery slope and it doesn't it it just doesn't look right. Whether or not anyone on this board agrees with the cannabis resolution, it's my understanding that it passed
and the state of New Jersey made it legal and I, you know, based on my background, I worked for four years in Warwick, New York, and they have a very big
um revenue stream ratables that has come in from cannabis. We're we're not talking we're not talking about cannabis. We're on the motion. But what we are talking about what we are talking about is what it looks like
to the public. And I feel very uncomfortable because this is my first meeting. I was just sworn in. I've just met everyone except for Mark and I'm the person that replaced Mr. Blekeley who wrote
something to tap into Sparta that made all of this public and and I agree with Celeste. It is a very uncomfortable position for us to be in. All right. I'm just going to educate you
on one thing here which is statute 4A col9-22.5 code of ethics for local government officers and employees under jurisdiction of the local finance board which is what we are. No elected government officer shall be prohibited
from making an inquiry for information on behalf of a constituent if no reward or other thing of value is promised to, given, or accepted by the officer or member of his immediate family and uh I asked an inquiry as a private person
which I have a right to do under the local ethics board. Also, nothing shall prohibit any local government officer, employee, or member of his immediate family from representing himself or themselves in negotiations or proceedings concerning his or their own
interests. So, you know, it's, as I said, it was blown up. Um, I'm going to leave it up to you for your vote. I'm proud to serve. Uh, but I contend I did nothing wrong. I have served the board to the best of my abilities and leave it
at that. I mean, this is really coming from an external force. It's not this board. This board was This board voted nine to nothing. Nine to nothing. We were unified. We were thinking
So, Mr. Poro, are we talking about cannabis? An external force which is coming our way. Okay, I think it's time for a vote. Dory Burggate Bogler. All right. So the the the the motion is to remove uh Joan Ferman as the chairperson. That's the motion. A yes
would be to remove. A no would be that she stays. Bogler. Yes. Net Burke. Yes. I second it though. Do I vote again? Yes. Do you vote? Ronda Day.
No. Les Luciano, yes. Ernie Ragstead, yes. Mark Scott, no. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto, no. Chairwoman Joan Furman, no.
All right. So, the vote is uh five to one, two, three, four, five to four. It does pass. Your vice chair is Robert Otto. Uh what I would recommend to the board is there's been a lot of discussion tonight and I would recommend
that you move to the next meeting who you decide to be the next chair. Rob Otto should step in as for tonight as the vice chair to get us through this meeting rather than go through a discussion of who the chair should be. We'll put on the agenda at the next
meeting uh a vote on a recommendation of who the replacement chair should be. But again, I'm strongly recommending that as far as tonight, Rob Otto as the vice chair take over. Let's conclude the meeting. I'd also recommend we do not go in close session. Uh I think we've done
a lot today. Uh Mr. Otto, as the acting chair, I think Well, I'd like to make a I I hear what you're saying, but um you know, Rob has served faithfully as vice chair, and I would like to put forth a motion that he take over as the chair. Second.
I would like to make another motion. Well, we have a motion on the motion on the floor. Okay. Discussion. Uh saying no discussion. Uh Dory, vote. Get Bogler. No. There. So, the vote is whether Rob Otto
should be the chairperson. Janette Burke. No. Ronda Day. No. Less Luciano. No. Ernie Ragstad. No. Councilman Mark Scott. Yes. Brian Zimmerman. No.
Uh, Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Nope. [Laughter] You could have saved us a lot of time if you just said you didn't want it. Rob, I didn't I didn't say that, but it's pretty thankless and you need to work together.
Rob, let's finish the vote. Joan Ferman. Yes. All right. So, it did not pass. Nonetheless, the vice chair is the acting chair for tonight. I would reiterate rather than uh go through, take a breath, discuss who you want uh
it's only two weeks away who you want to be the chairperson uh going forward. So, if that's okay with the board, Mr. Otto can get us through the meeting. The only thing I see that needs to be done is either the updates which we can also carry to the next meeting uh and the uh
public uh portion. So Rob, if you could bring us through the remainder, why don't you start with the uh the updates of the uh the council and the commission or subcommittees. Again, there's nothing on there that needs to be discussed
today that can all be brought to next uh month's meeting if that's okay. Is there anything that needs to be discussed board uh by town council environmental commissioner question the expenditures I think we should go over Dory good point good point
what about prior to that what about the cannabis referral I'm recommending that that uh be carried in the next meeting no I think we should talk about it now we had 35 days yeah so there's a clock on it and this is the last day
all right so what let's Let's keep going. Uh why don't we do uh Rob, you're the acting chair. Let's just keep going down the list. Uh you have uh we've done the public hearing. Uh the other business on the cannabis uh referral
that was a notice from the mayor and council uh to us. That is the next thing on the agenda. So Rob, if you can bring us through that. Um well the work products um can we talk about that?
Yes I had given uh an email on a work product that I really feel is uh we could discuss it in close session but there's nothing to hide here. Uh the uh the current prohibited uses uh in Sparta
deal with uh 18-4.5H prohibited uses in all districts. It says sexually oriented businesses. Number two, tattoo parlors. Number three, all classes of cannabis establishment. And we were adding number four smoke shop and other establishments
that sell uh cannabonoid products including but not limit to hemp uh marijuana derived uh is that ticksters uh edibles topicals vape products capsules pills I guess that's uh
pilocybin or other similar products. So the discussion and in your package is that we recommend to the mayor and council the inclusion of the number four in that your package again the smoke shops and other establishments that sell
those products as noted. So that's the discussion. So I wanted I wanted to kick off um because when I read this I saw two sides of this silus um silus cybin um we added and I remember the
discussion because bureet wasn't here um that's that's kind of a step from what the mayor had requested but uh the addition made sense I think is just to kind
We made a determination on consistency based on a master plan that's 45 years old or so. So, it hadn't contemplated um marijuana legalization. Um, so
I just want to point that part out. um because we added that to the section and I don't know if it should be its own section or if it should be included or if it should just be more general because one of the things that as people would know my frustration with minor
site plan is that there's uh things could be very generalized um and then it would help with just making determinations but we don't have the ability to change um the existing So
should it be number five? And then also uh would the section about cannabonoid um and marijuana derived tinctures apply to things like liquor stores that currently exist and do sell
um infused drinks? I I just want to I just want some direction on that because this is a very simple uh way to achieve what I think the mayor asked us to do. So on its face, I would
just support it and say let's do it and move on. But I want to make sure that I understand how this affects the current businesses that are in town. um not smoke shops but like liquor stores that are advertising
um infused drinks. All right. So again, you're making a recommendation to the uh uh mayor and council by way of number four if we say smoke shops, liquor stores and other
establishments and just keep the language. Uh I don't think we need to pull out uh the the mushrooms the mushroom siliban I apologize don't even been pronounce it but the uh I'm comfortable with the
suggestion to the mayor and council that them clarify it and based upon what uh vice chair Otto is saying uh in my memo to you number four would be amended to smoke shops liquor stores and other establishments Mr. Porro. Yes.
If we make that distinction, what then encompasses other establishments? Because when I read it, I I assumed that liquor stores would be put under that umbrella. But if we if we carve that out, then what falls under that grouping? Everything else everything else
you you could just say uh you know, all establishments and not say smoke shop, liquor stores. I'm comfortable that in your community smoke shops are applicable. as Rob Otto saying, liquor stores seem to be applicable. So, you're really sounding specifically and then
you have the catch all all other establishments. So, uh you have uh competent council at the uh uh mayor council level. He's he can uh clarify that if need be. We're just reviewing and making recommendations. So, uh good
point. Uh but I'm comfortable with uh just having smoke shops come to liquor store and other establishments. And if the mayor and council want to define other establishments, they have that ability. Or if you want to make a recommendation to the mayor and council for other establishments, that's proper. Also,
I just want to respond to Celeste's uh point. The reason that I called it out is, and I I don't know about uh the various acts that uh legalize um some of these things, but my understanding is liquor stores are legally allowed to
sell these. Um, so I want to know that we're correct in our standing to prohibit because if we include this language, um, could it get thrown out uh, the entire, you know what I mean, Ernie? Consistent with ABC laws. Is that what
you're saying? Sure. Yeah. Um, I I don't know where we stand on that. So, I I would like to call that out because I see it as something um that should be called out, but I also
know that it seems like the mayor is asking to let the state regulate going forward, which would make sense, but do we have the ability then to pull back what the state may already be regulating through
the liquor stores? All right, so good comments. Again, we don't need to overanalyze it. It's our recommendation. Leave it with township attorney. Yeah. Okay. Let the point that we should expand and that's the proposed language. Uh
engineer planner, any thoughts? Uh do you have a copy of my my email? Yeah. Any uh Lindsay, any comments on that? No. Can you show that to David?
Number four is the change or the addition just just for on Rob's point. You know, one of the things that I thought is on on liquor stores, you know, they they have their liquor license hanging over their head.
you know, we're we're worrying about stores that sell, you know, uh, non-regulated stuff and then could possibly be selling illegal things as well, you know. So, you know, where you
have you have one, you have the other, you know, kind of thing. I I think we could eliminate liquor stores from it just for the simple fact that they're not chancing their liquor license. It's worth over a million dollars uh to sell illegal narcotics,
you know, and and if they if they did, they're going to lose their liquor license. But Ernie, I get that, but my question is, are we being arbitrary and capriccious by saying tacitly the liquor stores are selling these things that we've defined here that we can't sell?
And now, uh, I I I get it. I think they're legally allowed to do it. So, if we restrict it, then we're saying only the liquor stores can do this and no one else can. And so then a shop could sue the town and say, "Well, you've
restricted me from doing exactly what the liquor store is doing." And then maybe that that lawsuit would result in them being able to carry all of these things. I think that sounds like a fight that the council needs to have. One one thought, again, I know we don't
want to work it too much, but you know, looking at we're calling out shops and look at stores. Can we kind of gear towards the product as opposed to who sells it, right? Okay. So, no retail or no retail or gifting of cannibid products and then go on with the whole thing. So, it kind of look
kind of says so if you liquor store, we're going to you we're going to shut you down there, but you still keep going forward. So, it's more geared to the product than the store. Okay. As long as we can do that. All right. So, what I would suggest then we'll take out smoke shop liquor store and number four will be no retail
establishments that sell or gift. Or or gift. All right. Good. Or gift. All right. Can I get I think Ron moved that. Can we get a second? I'll second that. Robot Dory
Bogler. So, this is the recommendation. This is the memo that the mayor asked for regarding the planning board's recommendations for what? Uh, yes. on uh the the cannabis issue
and you'll see my memo in the package. Uh section 184-5H already has 1, two, and three. And what we just discussed is number four on my uh memo. And we're rather than say smoke
shops and other establishments, we are changing that to no retail establishment that sells or gifts. More if I can just one more clarification. I apologize, but you know when I look at the mayor's request of us, it was is it feasible? It's
not what do you agree with it or not? Right. So I think we're saying it's feasible and this is a way to do it. Now you as the town council, you decide if you want it. So we're just addressing feasibility, not thank you or notation because good good point. I mean you let's amend
the resolution or the motion uh as as set forth by Mr. Ron. Uh they uh and Rob, you okay with that? I'm okay with that. But now I'm looking at retail stores. Should we keep it more general
establishments because because the stores you want to restrict the the product sales completely. No establishment. Oh, no. Okay. Any establishment that was just Yeah. All right. So, the motion is being
amended that no establishments sell or gift and uh uh Ron, is that okay? Yes. So, Ron's moving that. Rob, is that okay? Yes. All right. Dory, can I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Can we give just a little bit more context to to
Burgett, please? Because she was not here for for this and she does not have the original memo that was provided um in in front of her. So, can can we just kind of like give her a little bit more context? That is no problem. Uh she also has the
right to abstain. Okay. Uh and I'm going to abstain then. Yeah, that's fine. Thank you. Burke. Yes. Ronda Day, yes. Celeste Luciano, yes. Ernie Ragstad, yes. Councilman Mark Scott, yes.
Brian Zimmerman, yes. Joan Ferman, yes. And uh Vice Chairman Robert Otto, yes. All right, that takes care of uh Rob. That takes care of number uh six.
Uh number seven. Rob, we have the updates. Yeah. So, Mark, um, you could update us on town council, but I'd ask you to maybe be,
uh, just a little careful. Sure. Okay. Uh, town council passed 19 uh, 19 resolutions last week and, uh, and, uh, that was about it. Thanks. Okay.
uh environmental commission um looked at some applications uh had a good stakeholder meeting um for master plan um and so we put forth some suggestions which were somewhat alluded to as far as
uh considering alternative energy, wind, solar um considering reducing impervious uh cover in the way of uh looking at parking standards. records. Um consider
modifying wayfinding signage um and that would go to kind of design standards that uh we've been trying to push forward. Uh considering even uh circulation patterns in town to encourage more uh pedestrian biking. Um
and then to also consider kind of the next 20 to 40 years uh aging in place. um creating a sense of community uh through some of these things. Um and um then we looked at uh a couple
applications. One uh having a um a few questions on setbacks uh and nearby waterways. Um yep. So uh other subcommittees master plan.
Yeah. Um the uh master plan subcommittee uh is uh we're underway with various stakeholder groups. We've met with the board of education, the police, the fire department, environmental, parks and wreck, the seniors. Uh I may have missed
one or two, the library. Uh there are some that are just ongoing, so I don't have the most up to date. Uh but we have met with quite a few and we have more coming up in the next uh several weeks. Uh we also uh made uh a motion to approve Neglia
for the circulation element and transportation vision study and that contract is submitted to the township and uh the Q QPA is uh looking at whatever she does with the contract and so hopefully that part will be signed
soon and we also approve for the background and the land use. So um that's where that stands. So, I think that we should sign the Meglia contract. We have $75,000 allocated to the master plan right now
and in that bucket. So, I think, you know, that should be something. I know we can't vote on it, but I would urge the planning department to do to engage. Well, I think Ken, you said we can make a motion on it. Well, if the if the
board is in support of that, you should reaffirm it. You should affirm it. Okay. So, can make a motion to affirm that the township proceeds with the Neglia
circulation element transportation vision study. And it was 37,860, I think. Very close. $36,870. You're correct. Thank you. I'll second it. Okay.
Yep. Joan, were you the first? I'm sorry. Yes. Okay. Jo and then Ernie. Sorry. There's a discussion. Just a point of discussion. So again, I want to if I can uh go to Miss Fox here just get her thoughts on it because again when I look at the budget, I look
at you as having that control. So correct. What are your thoughts on our doing this to move forward with this? Yes. if we have the money to do so. Thank you. Yes. And I've been working with the QPA. Um she had gone on vacation for a little bit, but we brought it back up again today. We're working on it. And Lindsay
and I have already talked about the documentation she needs to submit to the town and we're getting there. Just a couple more days. We need Yeah. So the holdup is not in the planning office. No, I wasn't suggesting I just want to make sure from a budgetary perspective. Yeah, we're good. Okay.
Okay. The Can you get a vote? Yes. I'm so sorry. Um Bogler. Yes. Janber. Yes. Runday. Yes. Celesteiano. Yes. Ernie Roste. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Mark is in circulation. Brian Zimmerman.
Yes. Uh Joan Ferman. Yes. And Vice Chairman Robert. Yes. And we also put forth a motion to um Lindsay's been working on all of this for the background study in the land use
element, but at least formalize that as well. Second. All right. So, just for discussion, I I'm trying to What's the difference? She's been approved to do the master plan. And so, what is the if we can just clarify for the motion?
Maybe we don't need it. I don't know. I don't think you need it because it's all part of the same document and part of the same proposal. So, I think one vote should suffice. I I agree with Dory. I believe she's in uh she's been appointed already. Okay. Thank you.
clarify. Okay. Okay. Uh Rob, the uh next thing we we already approved the resolutions. Now you're open to the public. Open to the public. Anyone else? Anyone from the public wish to be heard?
Jenny Derek's tap into Sparta. Returning to your discussion about the cannabis referral. The misnomer is cannabis because anything that's legal is cannabis. Anything illegal is marijuana. I believe the direction was THCbased products. I don't have the letter, but
that would be more um accurate. Cannabenoid. Cannabonoid. And that um are you not going to discuss paraphernalia, the sale of drug paraphernalia in a smoke shop, which seemed to be part of the conversation?
Um I don't know if that doesn't fall within your purview, but that those are good. the it says products and that that could but that's a good clarification that we can put into the um mayor and council. That's a good discussed that last time.
Yeah, you brought it up and it does say product so that we'll make sure that it's okay with the board paraphernalia. It does have the police have a very Ernie police have a an understanding of what drug paraphernalia is. So, a classification. And then just
one other quick clarifier. Um, according to Chief McCarrick, any product that is now being sold that has a cannabon cannabis, cannabonoid, THC or other hallucinogenic type of um infusion or
any format is illegal, whether it's in a in a liquor store or at the 7-Eleven or wherever you're going to buy it. Thank you. Hi, uh Seanal, Grove Terrace. Um I also own 85 Main Street and um my um I'm just
here to put in good word for my new tenant and the uh existing Gulf Oil sign that is uh been on the property for uh over 50 years and I had it restored when I first bought the building and it is in perfect condition.
Excuse me, sir. Could you I'm I'm having a hard time hearing. Could you maybe adjust my I'm sorry. Um and um I'm just saying that um the sign I believe compliments the building and adds to its value. It's been there for
over 50 years like I said. Um I mean way longer. Um, and I think it adds to the property value. And I'm just here to put in a good word for that and respectfully ask the committee um, approval or to
consider approval on the ongoing and continued use of the sign um, for the building while the business occupying the building changes uh, for my new tenant. And so just to clarify that that
so it's the same same for same or yeah I missed so the sign you talk about I couldn't hear in the beginning so it is the original um tall freestanding um Gulf sign golf oil it's at crank original gas station
cranky noodles right correct right thank you application yes so so we're going to be preparing we made a determination at the subcommittee prior prior to this meeting. Okay. So, we're going to be preparing a memo. So, your concern is just for the pre-existing
porcelain lollipop sign that's that uh defines the Gulf oil station, which it looked like from the application. Uh your intent is to change the use but preserve the aesthetic in a historic manner. Exactly. It would just be a a
final final wrap on the the porcelain sign. Yep. Exactly. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Evening, Rob Leakley, Sparta. I'm sure you have my uh my letter
and I wanted to discuss uh that this is not about cannabis. Can you speak a little louder? Sure. This is not about cannabis. This is about process. This is about the council's failure to adhere to MLUL law, specifically
4055D-26 on referral powers. The language is clear as day, and the town council did not come even remotely close to meeting its duties and addressing the planning board's letter. I started paying more attention to town
issues after reading about a proposed trucking terminal in Sparta 45 years ago in a local paper and how a project like this so large in scope and size had developed and progressed was difficult to understand and beyond everyone's grasp that the residents were literally
blindsided by this. Now we have numerous people who can chime in and blame some former council members or town professionals who were not forthcoming about the developments that may have led to the subsequent litigation. But that's for a different time and place
which really really the issue was my outrage was about the process and how we got to that point. In this process, ordinance 257, the planning board was ignored and one council person made a unilateral decision by not having the contents of
the planning board letter discussed and having the council vote on those issues raised in a letter. The response, discussion, vote from the town council on that letter and its contents wasn't permissive. It was mandatory. The language is very clear. And does anyone
disagree about that? anyone? Mr. I'm going to advise the board not to make comment. Uh but the uh you have the the floor. Now, this isn't a fingerpointing exercise. This is an opportunity for the planning board to address the town
council and have them address the letter and follow follow MLU protocol. The zoning board and planning board are wellversed in avoiding the appearance of it being arbitrary and capricious when considering the merits of applications. The town council in similar fashion
cannot be arbitrary and capricious in the process of passing ordinances. They cannot adhere to 4055D-26 when it's convenient and ignore it when it's inconvenient. The planning board is supposed to be autonomous, guided by a professional planner, land use attorney, and operate
with undue influence from other entities. By not following through in your letter to the council, you are essentially complicit. You know it's wrong. You've waited for them to correct it and it's clear it's not their intention. The wait and see approach has
not worked. The planning board serves Sparta, not the town council. It's time to put aside the pettiness and let everyone do their jobs. As someone recently pointed out to me, everyone's so afraid of losing their job that they're not doing their job. Doing the
job shouldn't rock the boat. It should steady it. And I thank you for your attention. Anyone else from the public? Um, Mr. Auto, seeing no one else, uh, there should be a motion to close to the public. Um, I'll make that motion to close it to
the public. I'll second it. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Record shows not. Okay. Next, Rob, what do we got next? Um, do we want to do expenditures?
All right. So, you know, we we had that uh notice Jonah had put in case we had to go into close session on the uh discussion. I was comfortable that we had the discussion of the recommendation in public. I have nothing else for close session. So, uh if there's nothing else
that needs to be discussed expenditures, thank you. I thought I said that. I didn't say it loud enough. Okay. Thank you. close session. Aren't we going to address Mr. Ble's letter? That was one of the points of
I I I'm in I'm advising the board uh that that he we make no comment and that his letter is duly filed. He made his statement uh in the if we were to go in ch uh complete
transparency. If we go into close session is the board. I represent the board. Uh is the board going to make a determination to support his uh position and direct you could go into close
session on that? Uh you know there you could if the board wants to go into close session, you have the power to go into close session based upon that. Uh if someone wanted to do that. Why don't we get through the dispersements first? Dory, what what do we have on the agenda
on that expenditures? Everybody had received it's a very large packet. I don't know how you want to go over it. All right. So, if if you could uh if someone would uh do a motion and second on the package as a whole, if you have
something that you want to have pulled out, you can do that. Uh uh but I would ask that uh someone do a motion to approve the vouchers as submitted. I make a motion that we pay the vouchers
as submitted in a timely basis. I'll second that motion. Robot roller individually. I have discussion. Yes. Because I've gone through all of these and um I just have some questions on
them. There are things in here that some of them belong to escrow. Um, some of them like we talked about and uh Jim Zep said that the housing element and fair share plan expenditures should be reccharacterized into I'm not exactly
sure what they have another um line item for them at the town level wherever Steve Warner and Dash are billing. So they should go into that. We do have a separate line for that. Okay. So that that needs to be reccharacterized. Um there was attention to Rammes that
should go to escrow. Um I had questions on the appellet matter both for DCR and both for well both with for DCR for the appellet and as well as the federal um and where that money is going to be
coded. And I had a story earlier today that the town council just approved $250,000 extra for legal fees. and I wanted to make sure that some of that was going to be allocated back to the planning board as these are increasing and she assured
me that there's a pot up there and you know if we run out of it that we will then I guess dig into that pot right um I had under Mr. Simmons, I'm sorry. I had some questions there. Um, and I
asked Lindsay this last time when you weren't here the same question, but when you're billing for the meetings and let's say we have an hour for um just our general discussions and then we have applicant A for an hour, applicant B for an hour. Um I believe you're billing
like the the three hours just to the town for meeting time. Yes, that that's what we were asked to do years ago. Okay. So, we're Lindsay was um doing something else. So, I'm just looking for some consistency here. And if you're spending an hour on a particular
applicant, should that not go back? Should that go back to the applicant? So, that is my question to whomever's doing this. But applicant A would have their hour build to them. Applicant B because this is all money coming out of
the township budget when I believe some of it should be rein back. In other words, the developer should be paying. Exactly. That's the escrow. Escrow. So that has not historically been done. So I'm just calling that to your attention. That's actually incorrect. Historically, all escrow goes to escrow. It's all
coded like that. If it's on one bill, it doesn't necessarily mean all of that is going to general. That's not how it works. We break that down in our office and we code the invoices when we send them to finance. All right. So just All right. So just for the my understanding is what the
professionals are doing uh is we we bill a set fee. We have a set fee for attending these hearings. We do not bill the we do not double dip. We do not bill again the applicant. If we do a resolution or a report that is separate
and distinct from the hearing, we build that individually under that uh item. So that is the course that I've been following. I think that's the course the other professionals uh but feel comfortable Joan there's no double dipping on it and it is No, I didn't mean but it is it is addressed to the escrow.
It is that's what I just wanted to make sure because it's you know we're just looking at what was submitted to us um and it's saying you know for three hours for the meeting we're on some of those dates we heard different applicants and that it should be I think escroed back to the
applicants. I think it's a missed opportunity. So, so what you what you're saying, Dory, is that internally we code everything. It goes to the appropriate line. We do that. That's what we do. Professionals, they just do the flat three hours and then you break it up. Yeah. We could also get an invoice that
might have federal DCR, appellet DCR. Um, it could also have affordable housing. Then each invoice gets a different code for each line. So, what you're seeing is just we're not going to make three different copies and white it out and give you what's appropriate.
That's just how it's built on our side. The expenditures that we see are prior to the reccharacterization. That is correct. Okay. We do that. We code it. We code everything and we put it to the appropriate account and the reccharacterization
reduces the amount that is the town's responsibility as it becomes the developer's responsibility. Correct. We break that down. We break down what is escrow, what is for an application, and what has no no bearing on an application whatsoever. We make that
determination and we work with our professionals if we ever have questions as well. That's what we do inhouse internally. Okay. But while they're here for the three hours, you break it down. It's not No, they're here for a meeting for
that's for the planning board that comes out of our general. They're here for the township. They're here on behalf of the township, their time here. If they do work for an application, say it's a a review, Mr. Simmons or or Miss Knight does an application review or emails
going back and forth that require an extensive research or um I don't know, give me some more examples. Or reaching out, yeah, outside agencies, things of those that nature. Then it gets build to the applicant. So I think what Joan is
asking maybe we're not hearing is so when we see like a presentation and we ask our professionals clarif clarification questions during our review that's not coming out of escrow that's coming from their the township's general because they're
here for us they're here for the application right they're here for our review of the application that is correct is what isn't it the isn't Is it the the developer's responsibility to pay?
All right. So, if I could Mark, normally if it was a special meeting, uh that's identified to that particular applicant. Uh it is not uncommon throughout the state that the attendance because it becomes difficult. You got multiple
applications. It wasn't an hour here, hour and a half there. So, uh it's not uncommon that we get a set fee. Now in all cander it is a set fee. So when some of the meetings go to 10 11:00 uh that we have to absorb that. So
that's the give and take. So the board of education is not going to be build for Mr. Simmons time tonight. He will be build for the report and let's say I do a resolution build for that. Now, a lot of time the board of education asks for a waiver because
they're a governmental entity and it comes out. It's developer A. Let's say it's developer A. They would pay all expenses except for the attendance of at the hearing except if there's a special hearing that they've requested and then they pay uh
individually. They pay for everything then because they ask for the special hearing outside of your normal course. That seems to be an excess burden on the town that it's common. It's again because we're at a set fee. It's fair. A lot of times the
applicant is uh uh a taxpayer is a they're all taxpayers, but it it's a give and take. Mark, could we could you say again if it was two applications and um my fee is $X an hour and then you
just divide it up there? You could. That's unusual because it's it's every application. We're here for the hearing on behalf of the board at that hearing. Could you do what you're saying? Yes. It puts a lot of burden on the professionals and the the land use
department to break that up on a meeting. The other issue is easy. When Dave does a report, Lindsay or I do resol. It's easy identified. Could you save a couple bucks? Probably yes to answer the question. and in the process make Sparta even less
businessfriendly. Well, but I think the counterpoint to that would be um we could also work on things like design standards and suggest ordinance changes to the governing body
would be the counterpoint to that which if those changes were made then every application wouldn't be treated uh in like a bespoke way. It could be, you know, hey, here's some updated language
from 45 years ago and now we can quickly make determination. So, it actually might be more businessfriendly, but we can't make that determination. We can't make that recommendation because we don't have the time and we also don't have the charge to do that.
I I build the escaro accounts when I come to a meeting. That's what you said last time. That's why I'm asking because it that's typically how I do it in the other municipalities I represent as well. Um I bill directly if for say we heard an
applicant for 45 minutes, I will bill 45 minutes to that. Um and then where I bill the township is when for example tonight like say obviously tonight's a unique situation with it was a capital improvement plan so they don't have an escaro. Um, but if that was an
applicant, that hour, hour and a half that we spent on that application, I would bill to that escrow account and the remainder of the meeting, I would bill to the township. So, say tonight, I would bill, I wrote it down, it would be like an hour and a half for that first part. And then we've now been here an
hour discussing various items. That hour would be build to the township. Unlike my retainer says, I get a set fee. You have a set fee. They do not. They negotiated a better deal. So is there is there an opportunity like
Mr. Simmons? How do you do you do it like Lindsay or do you do it do opposite? So that's why I'm pointing out the inconsistencies here. When we started here years ago, uh we were advised uh to build just the This is not against you at all.
No, no, I understand. I understand. Quite frankly, in some towns, uh, if we were here for three hours and the first hour was with developer A and he was an hour, we'd bill an hour to developer A. If we were the applicant B for a half
hour, half hour time goes to developer B and the other hour and a half would go to the township. There are ordinances which is saying how to do it, but it is an assistant. Is there any way that we could is this something we can make a motion on to at least get stimulated?
Well, what I would say in all cander is we're in August. I have a contract that goes through the the year. So, this is something we should look at. I'm not talking about yours. I'm just talking and all all of us. I mean, they have contracts too. So, I I would say look at this and next
year when the issue comes up of the engagement, we could clarify or you could have a discussion of that. Yes, you you could change. I just wouldn't change it this year. Uh again, if you look the towns that uh days of old before Chris Christie, the uh the
attorneys used to be able to be part of the pension. Uh and we would get a uh retainer for the year. So, let's say I got $12,000, I get $1,000 a month, whether there was a meeting or not, and I was part of the pension. That is more
common. uh that is no longer that that process is no longer available. It's in fact disfavored. Uh I I think when you give medical to the professionals, it affects your bonding capacity. And I'm
going a little off the rails, but it the new world is you can do a set fee non-pensionable or you can do an hourly or you can do a combination of it. Well, they're both hourly, but shouldn't it be consistent in what we do? So, applicant
A will get build by the planner, not by the engineer. They probably all think the planner is so expensive. So, I can't a board question, I guess. Yeah, I think we should look into it. I think that should be put on discussion.
Uh maybe a subcommittee uh looking at it. uh Dory's department can look at what other jurisdictions are doing. I could combine Dory with other and then maybe we could make an informed decision. But here's a question. So that sounds
costly. So it sounds like Lindsay is already doing what? So and it sounds like Mr. Simmons has done it. Is it so unreasonable just to suggest for I mean Dory would that be a problem if like that's it depends on number one how
the contract is written and number two it depends on what Mr. Simmons office would like to do. It's could be a lot of work. We could do it either way. I'll make more money on an hourly. I We're not talking about you.
You're just fe is not very profitable at this point. No, I'm I'm just We get it. But but the making a certain but for the planner and the engineer what goes back to the developer. So if if right so if Lindsay has already
identified how many hours she's represented developer A B and C then it seems like Dave Simmons could agree and charge accordingly and we could with others. So, so quite frankly, when I go into the office
tomorrow, I'll log on to my computer and instead of whatever the project code is for Sparta Township Planning Board, three hours or whatever it was, developer A put their project number in an hour, developer B half hour. So, I would chip hour and a half.
So, it sounds easy. So I would I mean unless accounting tells you otherwise I would like to make a motion that we simply change how if if I can make a motion I don't know if this if we simply uh change so that Dave Simmons is
conforming with how Lindsay does it which I think is a more transparent um and taxpayer friendly way of doing it. I think we need to make sure that there's nothing in Dave's contract that's contrary to that before we make that
decision. I I I would like to to know how his contract is worded before we just kind of start pay either way. No, I I understand that. I may make a suggestion. Sure. uh what what Celeste just mentioned I think is something that
should be checked first and also just thinking out loud if the board is going to change how they want us to do it I think we've got to be in lock step with the zoning board too because when we go to the zoning board we do it the same way if I'm there for
two hours I build a zoning board for two hours we don't divvy up between that I think it should be consistent is what I'm getting at well but how Lindsay how I mean, how does that work in zoning? How's the planning? I do it the same way. Yeah. So, I mean, it's already inconsistent, but Okay.
So, I can change it, but I just think the two boards should talk to each other to make sure you I have another spending thing and I think this is something that should be decided at the town council level. Mine might be slightly different as well because I don't review every application
at the zoning board. I only review Dvariances. So, there might be some kind of different language or some kind of Okay. So then Mark as well I heard Mark wants to bring it to town council to look at it. I I agree with Mark. I think it's something for the council to look at. Okay.
Well, so can I make a motion to make We already pay the bills. There's a motion to pay the bill. Well, I want but next I want to make a recommendation. Okay. Right. All right. All right. So Mark made the motion and Rob made the second. Correct. Yes.
Doesn't matter. Yes. Janette Burke. Yes. Ron, yes. Celeste Luciano, yes. Robinson, yes. Councilman Mark Scott, yes. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Uh Joan Ferman, yes. And Vice Chairman Rob,
yes. Right. Rob, what else we got? So, so just to go back, I wanted to make a motion to uh was it to make a suggestion or to basically elevate this to the
governing body that we take a look and see um since it is spending and since every dollar matters, um we could see if the governing body would be willing to request that the engineer follows uh how
Lindsay has been charging against. Can I add something to that? Sure. Um because I I think that that that additional billing obviously also it impacts how escrow is calculated. Okay. Uh so I I think that that should be looked at as well. Um because if it
turns out that you know like all the hours that weren't being built to escrow now are being built to escrow and now escrow is depleted before they even get here that that becomes that becomes an issue. So I think they need to also look at how how escrow is calculated. So So Dory, can you take a look at that
with your office because you are you set up the escrow, right? So um it's not something that's going to happen overnight. I'll tell you that because I'm going to have to research and look two days. Dory, one other quick. I I just recently put together an escarel comparison chart for a bunch of
different municipalities I can send to you. That would be fantastic. Thank you. because a couple of municipalities are doing the same thing about escros. Yeah. Um Ken, my question to you real quick is that if it goes to the governing body, it's really isn't it a board decision
between planning board and zoning board how the contracts are written. Good point. Uh I am engaged and the professionals you vote for my engagement. uh my contract is signed by the chairperson of the planning board and uh the budgeting uh as Dory does is
approved by the mayor and council. So if uh my uh I get $300 let's say a meeting or whatever the number is 600 u whatever the number is uh the that number is budgeted so I am protected that I'll get
paid if if the and the mayor and council prove that in their budget. So what the concern becomes is if I exceed my budget in the line item and Dory says there's no more money in that account, I have to get approval by the mayor and council to
give additional funds. So we're very good here. We don't have any violations. We're living within our four corners. Uh but the question that came up is should the applicant be paying more of the professional fees individually? The
planner is already doing that. Uh quite frankly, Dave and I could do that also. Uh next year, if that's what you do, I would put that in my contract. Uh hopefully you'll reappoint me. And that I would say then uh it would be hourly
uh on the meetings, not a set fee. Now, again, some other municipalities may give $12,000 a year. And if you have a meeting or you don't have a meeting, the attorney still gets that amount or the board because that's an attendance fee. So there's different mechanisms and I think that's what Lindsay was saying
that she's done a survey on what some other jurisdictions are doing. And so if we're going through this effort, does it make sense to also apply the same to the subcommittee where I think currently applicants pay $50?
But uh if it's a particularly complex application where we can save the applicant money by sending them through the minor site plan uh subcommittee pathway versus having them appear before the entire uh planning board. Um, do we want to could we also take a look at
that and just see if that is an escrow type thing or is that just a whole other can of worms? That is something in my opinion you can recommend as a planning board expenditures or funds or the mayor and council. Okay. However, Dave's contract I think as you
pointed out is with the planning board and you know we signed it so it doesn't have to match what the zoning board does. No. And and I know we did sign a different contract with the zoning board. I guess what I was really trying to say is if you had developer A and for
whatever reason he had an application that came before the planning board and let's say had another application, same person and went to the zoning board for a matter. I was just trying to avoid developer A saying, "Well, how come I had to pay escrow here at the planning board but not at the zoning board?"
That's what I was trying to go to zoning. Yeah. We'll do it either way you want. It's not a problem. What do you want to do? Think we leave it for leave it for discussion for the next meeting, you know. Well, let's look at the contract.
Okay. All right. So, the suggestion is uh uh Lindsay has her little survey. Then we'll put that in the package and we'll keep this topic on for next uh meeting. Is that acceptable to everyone? Yep. Yes. Yep. Dorian, is that good?
Yes. Okay. Um, Bob, Rob, I think that's that's it. Anyone else have anything? Yeah, I just want to apologize to the uh planning board here because I didn't really do a very good job the other day
trying to get uh uh the the funds for the for the uh minor site plan. uh well for the whole board for the whole design for for the whole board's design standards um at the town council meeting. So uh I I think it's
very important that that we do align and and and make the design standards more consistent in our in our overall uh land use section and and that would be very
developer friendly because right now many things are referred to in in many different sections and it's rather confusing to our our potential customers. Well, since you've brought it up, developer friendly, businessfriendly, all of that. Um, so
can I just I'd like to ask uh the master plan subcommittee presumably you're updating a 45-year-old plan. Presumably, I don't know. I saw there was a figure that was presented by the mayor for uh updating design standards.
But if the intent were to try to work on updating these to uh make them more clear for business owners so that we can increase our ratables so we can make the process faster.
Haven't we already budgeted for that? Isn't that a a key component of the master plan? it is. So, uh, from Yeah. So, it's just a matter of using the funds now rather than waiting. And I think you did a very good job of trying to bring
it up um and had a motion on the floor. Um, just to piggyback what you're saying too, it's there are seven separate ordinances when somebody needs to go look at a sign. Think about that. Seven different ordinances. So you're a
business person out there trying to navigate that. It's almost impossible. We put together a form in the beginning of the year to say well if you're you if you're in this zone you look at here but then you also have to go here and then you have to go there and in some cases it is you know just following three or
four different ones. So all you know we were suggesting was bringing them together so that it is in one place. We're talking design standards not and which are for signs for minor site plan subcommittee. So if you want I could give you the breakout for the seven
different ordinances. In fact I have them. So um so I would like to add this just as a topic of discussion along with the costing is if we're trying to actually get something done rather than um the
the figure that I saw in in that memo uh Dory was that from your office that number do you know what I mean that the the the mayor provided a figure the mayor indicated it would be that I was trying to spend $100,000
of the taxpayers's money. Are we talking about the design standards? I get something from my office for design standards. That didn't come from my office. Okay. So So just because we had the planner here and because they're flat, right? No, that's not our planner. I don't know where he came up with that number.
Huh? We don't know where he came. We don't know where he came up with that. Right. No. So I'm saying we have an engineer here. We have a planner here. We have planning and zone or we have the zoning officer here. Um I'm just curious. I'm not holding anyone to it,
but if we're trying to move forward with things, uh it seems to me we've already allocated monies um or we will be allocating monies to complete the master plan. It sounds like that's an 18-month process. I think Burgick got a good
sense of maybe maybe not. I don't want to speak for her, but um that uh the business owners and uh the the code and the ordinance supporting them um aren't
always the most clear. So, if we were to try to relax those standards is uh is that something we could do when we're here for a regularly scheduled meeting if we have a light day and there's a flat rate? I mean, I think
Ron, isn't that something that you undertook in when you were chair uh where you tried to move forward ordinances just trying to move the needle? So, when Celeste was chair and and myself, we we had a a sub subcommittee and the proc that looked at ordinances and the
process that we followed there was say here's what we want to do and here's how much we think it costs and then go get that budget approved. Mhm. Now, when I when I hear I'm going to go a little bit longer than I should. When I hear we want to do all the the design standards, I don't think we do.
No, I I think if it's just signs, then maybe we look at what would it cost to clean up the signage aspect of the design standards. Um and then and and then we give that to the town council and and and they decide, you know, hey, I've got I can only spend so much this year. Yeah.
Is that is that there or not? Let them make that decision so we can make the recommendation. Um, and so, so the process was exactly that. All right. So, I mean, I come up with a recommendation and an estimate and get go get budget for it.
I'm trying to take advantage of while while I'm here. Um, I want to just pack up and leave. Um, so you got 10 minutes. Yeah. No, I don't need 10 minutes. So it just sounds like so Ron is that something that and Celeste I mean you're
familiar with we're trying to move the needle and stuff. Brian you have good ideas for minor site plan. We could just push through some stuff. I guess it's a question for for Lindsay and Dave as far as if we did a lot of the leg work and
we do a draft and and we do a draft, right? So then then you would need a quote from from each of them to determine how much time they would need to review it and that quote comes back and that gets presented for No, I understand that. I'm just saying so if if if we were able to do the
majority with pre-existing stuff that's already MLUL compliant whether borrowed from another town or stuff that already exists in the code and we just try to clarify it. Um certainly they're not going to be able to give me a figure right now. we'd have to present it to
them. But I guess for Mr. Porro, is that like a track we could take? And and for Dave and Lindsay, is that something be willing to do is kind of fasttrack some of these pain points that we've identified from the front lines and minor site plan subcommittee applications. Well, if we look at what I put in your
package on your powers 405D-25 data collection subsection B, subsection B talks about uh one, two, and three. Number two is assemble data on a continuing basis as part of a continuing planning process. So you have that
power, right? Uh number three, perform such advisory duties as are assigned to it by ordinance or resolution of the governing body. So we had the the mayor and council asked us to look into that cannabis as we did today. And uh again,
maybe I spent an hour and a half, two hours max on that. So it's within the general budget. I don't think that we need if the information is done by a subcommittee or members uh that make a
suggestion and it is placed before me to review or the board engineer plan it to the review that's nominal and I don't think you need a separate proposal. Uh and I think that's what you're saying with the signs. If you have some other jurisdictions and you have a proposal
under your advisory duties, uh we can review it uh on an two hours, three hours on on my end on the engineers. We're not talking a lot of money. You vote on it. Yes, it goes to the mayor and council. So, under the uh powers, I
think you have the right to do that. And as long as it's something that your committee or subcommittee is doing the first draft, I think we can very much keep it within budget. Thank you. So, last thing would uh Dory, if if we were to undertake that,
your office probably doesn't have the time, but you would probably also want to weigh in it, weigh in on it. Would you prior would you prefer to weigh in on it uh after we do a draft and prior to submitting to to professionals or would you like to weigh in it after the
professionals if we were to do this? Either way, as long as I get to weigh in. As long as you get a say. All right. Okay. Your chair, why don't you appoint four people? Power. Um does anyone want to undertake
uh an effort um to take a look at these painpoint design standards specific? Okay. So Celeste is one. I will do it. All right. Burgot will do it. It should be people who really understand the standards and the pain points that we've gone through
lately. All right. Well, can I start with All right. Can I start with minor site plan subcommittee since we've been dealing with some complicated applica application? So, Brian, would you be willing to do it? Yes, I will do it. Ron, I know you were you got away from
it. I I to be honest, I I just don't have the time. Okay, that's fine. Get you to look at Joan. Sure. Okay, I'll do it. You want to include? So, Celeste, you're still So, how many? Oh, yeah.
You need four. We we have three. All right. So, I prefer Burg if you're okay. I prefer Celeste for now and then we could swap out just because you're new to this. I think a good way to learn is for me to see what's going on.
If he wants it, you guys decide I'm not saying No, no, no, no, no. I'm already on so many committees. No, I think it's not it's not bad to have people that are familiar with it and then maybe to have one person that's going to look at it from the outside,
right? Because if you can explain it to me in a way that makes sense. Okay. I'm So, Celeste, are you okay with I'm fine with it. Okay. So, Burgett, you'll be the fourth. Yeah. All right. All right. So, I don't know what we call it. Does anyone have a name? Well, it's just an extension of the minor site plan subcommittee because
that's that's what you're charged to do. Uh, yeah, because they're all on subcommittee. All right. So, it's going to be a design standard sub subcommittee. Okay. With that, uh, anyone want to make a motion to adjourn?
Actually, it's your discretion. You're the chair. You're the chair. Subcommittee. I'm thinking now this is just going to be another subcommittee. So, we we already have minor site plan. If it's another subcommittee, I'm going to not do it. It's going to be too much time. So,
So, you're out. I'm out. It's less I will help if if you don't if you need the extra assistance. All right. Uh I don't know when we're going to meet, but I'd like to just um
put something together, I guess, for the next meeting so we could kind of All right. So, just so for the record, you you've created a subcommittee on design standards again to make recommendation. And you have the four people uh and that uh subcommittee was
created by the acting chair Robert Otto and it's not all design stand right now. It's specific to signs, right? It's specific to the pain points encounter and minor site plan subcommittee. So it would be great for beerget to get up to speed and it'll be
good for you Celeste because I think you No problem. as clarified and I I think it's proper. Is the board in favor of that as a whole? Are all in favor? Yes. Any opposed? So, the record show was unanimous. Thank you. Thanks.
All right. Anyone else have anything? Yeah. I just want to make one statement because I uh in the mayor's letter to to the planning board, he indicated that uh I was pushing or
urging the Lake Mohawk board to approve bed and breakfasts in the historic zone of which which it was already. Uh I am the uh I I
purchased with my wife uh nine West Shore Trail. It's been a blighted property for about 40 years and I wanted to do something to help the town. I really don't have a big profit motive and I and it was not my intent to in any
way, shape or form to to sway or or I just wanted to get it out there that, you know, we did this because we wanted to do something good for the town to I have no idea what use will come down. I
I seem to have turned it over to God to let to to let it let let's see what happens with this zone. Does it stay TCC or does it go to C1H? So, whatever comes
out, whatever happens happens. Until then, the property unfortunately will remain a blighted property and it will continue to be the way it is. Um, so I just want to make that clear that I have no I had no profit motive whatsoever. In
fact, I I didn't buy this property for profit motive. I did it and we did it to do something good for the community. Good for Lake Mohawk, good for this town. Thank you. And and to be fair, that purchase
when was that? July 1st. So C1H came up. So So that July 1st of this year? Yeah. Okay. So just to be fair since we're going on the record, C1H uh again came out of
several applications that were difficult uh with design standards and they were a little bit unclear. Um and that came out early in the year when I first started. Um, so it, you know, just want to make it clear that had nothing to do the the
desire. I don't want C1H, the historic fabric of Lake Mohawk to be caught up in um this this argument. Right. And then I got caught up in it and I was under contract for a year and a half. All right. So I had nothing to
do with the standings. All right. So enough said. All right. So I would like to make a motion to adjurnn. We'll second. Thank you. All in favor? No objection.