##VIDEO ID:tZZAxIUVtx0## yeah she's GNA do it and I'll ask him to here at this point right I don't put my phone I hi hi hello did you maybe you know how we used to have the table turned so it was partially toward the applicants and no problem thank you he's going to need help Rich you can come up here this angle yeah perpendicular to the oh what happened to your hand oh then don't do it don't do it you don't need that problem yes I'm in the penal Bo no no I thought I was in The Penalty Box you can go down with h where's Rich gonna sit he's up here oh he's up there okay great never mind go the guy like wait first on the agenda but I can wait you all the announcements okay yes yes because we have some other things first don't now right you sure we ready yes okay the mic is working good evening this is the township of Sparta planning board uh we're meeting at Sparta Township Municipal Building courtroom 7 p.m. it is Wednesday February 5th 2025 the time is 7:14 p.m. the open public meetings act statement adequate notice of this public meeting was given in accordance with the open public meetings act formal action may or may not be taken we will now stand to salute to the flag I Ali to the flag of the United States of America the rep depends one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all okay would you do the roll call please sure and also maybe just mention that this is being live streamed at www.youtube.com spart WP Christine dumbar here Ernie ragat here Robert Bley here Vice chairman Ro Robert Oto here chairman uh chairwoman Joan Ferman here councilman Mark Scott here Ronde here Janette Burke here Celeste Luciano here Brian Zimmerman here okay thank you um I'd like to make one change to the uh agenda uh rames and Company asked for a postponement an adjournment and postponement until March 19th 19th so they will not be heard tonight um and we have one other point of business we'd like to take care of before we begin Madam chair before we move off of that point can I just make a more formal announcement to the people so if there's any member of the public here for RZ and Company at 61 sport Avenue property uh for that application it is not being heard this evening it is now going to be heard on March 19th in this room commencing at 7 pm and there'll be no further notices from the applicant okay okay thank you um the next thing um which is not on the agenda we did have some uh scheduling issues that came into play and uh Mr Aller is here with us today Rich Aller and uh we will if somebody would make a formal motion to have him as our conflict attorney I'll make the motion that uh Richard Aller be our conflict attorney okay second please I'll second second okay roll call councilman Mark Scott yes Janette Burke yes Ronde yes Robert Bley yes Brian Zimmerman yes celest Luciano yes Ernie Raa yes Vice chairman Robert OT yes chair chairwoman Joan Ferman yes congratulations thank you very much with you thank you me too okay so the first thing we have um going into regular business um the Town Council had asked us to take a look at two ordinances for consistency review with the master plan uh the first one is ordinance 25-4 amending chapter 18 entitled comprehensive Land Management code to amend portions of section 18- 4.36 entitled pdm-2 plan development and Resource Management Area um so let's take that one first and I'd like to um ask Katherine to she did the consistency review for us and if she would please give us her um advice thank you chairman fman um so this ordinance if you recall the the board referred it to the council um so this is actually an extra layer an extra step in that uh after first reading it came back to the board but this was an ordinance that the um the ordinance subcommittee had put together um and uh it it was um we described it last year when we had a few meetings on it uh when we went through the draft of it but essentially what it does is it amends the pdrm 2 Zone to have the same standards development standards and um building coverage standards that were amended um by ordinance 2201 for the pdr1 zone and the Ed zone so um many of the the standards are related to um warehouse and storage uses they provide um higher levels of requirements um that otherwise were not in that ordinance that were that um deal with development standards they were we did them before um or concurrently with the um State um the NJ uh office of planning advocacy and the state Planning Commission put together a warehouse sighting guideline and talked about a lot of those standards we happened to be doing at the same time when we did ordance 2201 but this essentially will bring um the pdrm 2 Zone which is very similar to the pdm1 and Ed Zone into complete um kind of consistency with each other as far as the master plan consistency review um what I did was I went through the 2011 master plan Amendment which was the pdrm um master plan Amendment which essentially was a recommendation to create those zones before 2011 they did not exist and then to look at the most recent master plan reexamination report which was done in 2020 um to ensure or to look and see how the new ordinance compares to um those MA the master plan to make sure that they're consistent um in looking at those documents um I came to the conclusion and I recommend that the board find this ordinance is consistent with the master plan and refer that back to the council with um with that finding okay thank you um just FYI this is uh not going portion not open to the public this is only for the uh the board so um like to go maybe start down with Christine do you have any um questions or comments I do not thank you the no thank you rob no Rob no thank no run no no no no that was easy um so we make a motion to approve this and send comments back to the Town Council yes and there's kind of two way I don't know what the history is in Sparta how um how you do that here but you can either do it just by letter um you know short letter or by resolution so letter is probably going to be faster right yeah so would anybody make a motion to send a letter to the Town Council approving the consistency Rie make letter to the Town Council proving the consistency review I'll second roll call please councilman Mark Scott yes Janette Burke yes Ronde yes Robert Bley yes Brian Zimmerman yes Celeste Luciano yes Ernie ragat yes Christine Dumar yes Vice chairman Robert Auto yes chairwoman John fman yes okay thank you uh the next one is ordinance 25-06 amending chapter 18 entitled comprehensive Land Management code to amend portions of section 18- 4.31 A entitled planned commercial Economic Development Zone Catherine thank you oh I'm sorry Dave did you have any comments no I did did not uh Madame chair and board members I did review uh Katherine's memo that she sent out and I was in agreement with what she came up with okay thank you and I'll remember to ask you this time that's all right um so uh this was the um an amendment to The pced Zone which exists today um this is ordinance 25-06 um in this consistency review um there was a master plan Amendment for the pced that was done in 2018 and then um the same reexamination report from 2020 was reviewed um so the 2018 master plan Amendment effectuated or recommended that the PCD Zone be adopted didn't exist before then um and that was eventually adopted um thereafter in 2018 I believe and um this included a number of goals General goals for the Zone um and I won't go through them they're in the report um but it also included um a study area so it included what they are now zoned as a study area to describe um some of the environmentally sensitive features so existence of wetlands um that it was in the Germany Flats aquafer area and that it was in most of the properties Were Somehow um in different tiers of the critical Wellhead protection area so is a tier one tier two and tier three which is basically the distance from the Wellhead area and it noted those as sensitivities in that any future development should be should be careful about those things and should also have certain um storm water management and um design that ensures that the well head continues to be protected um and that continues to move things away from the well head so that's not flowing into there um the amendment also made a number of uh proposed land use recommendations um with the permitted uses um listed in that document the conditional uses there's a typo on page3 I apologize um in that document and then prohibited uses those were all recommendations by the master plan Amendment so a master plan Amendment um doesn't effectuate doesn't put together an ordinance it just makes recommendations um and it likewise made amendments to the 1984 land use element of the master plan and that it replaced pages and that was something that happened in the pdrm zone as well but every time that a new Zone was added it would basic basically um revise and replace the land use element that talks about all the different zones because it's adding another one and in that section it also includes what the purpose of the Zone was um and that I will it's pretty short so I will add that that the purpose of the Zone was to permit development of large tracks of land along Route 15 in a planed setting a planned development will prevent an adverse impact on the community and enhance the existing light industrial uses and impr improve the free flow of traffic to meet the state access management code and then it's a June 2018 which is included as part of the master plan um the master plan reexamination report um included a few things that were relevant to the PCD Zone um and the re-examination report really only looks at um what were recommendations in the past uh what has changed at the state local and Regional level uh so it's an assessment of all that at a point in time and then um looks at um if any recommendations are still valid need to be re-evaluated need to be um pushed out or and any new recommendations that that element that that recom that reexamination report makes and so um it notes that um since 2018 the township completed um the ordinance ordinance 18-12 to amend the zone map and to include PCD so it confirmed that the PCD Zone um was completed and was adopted by ordinance essentially um it also noted um a prior recommendation about um traffic in the Town Center in the route 15 Corridor and made notes about um the the the traffic and how it should be handled in the future especially by Boards and also by a circulation plan element through traffic studies and a more robust look at traffic um because it was noted as as an issue as a focal point and then also for a prior recommendation that should be re-evaluated um there was a recommendation from the past that said the board recommends the adoption of a master plan Amendment mment um to amend the Ed Zone and the PCD Zone to the pced zone and it notes that this was implemented um and then finally the last time the PCD Zone was amended was by ordinance 22-21 which um was limited to just the prohibition of distribution centers fulfillment centers and parcel hubs for that zone that was the only change made to the zone at that time um so from a consistency perspective looking at all of that information and comparing it to the to the ordinance um there the the biggest the biggest um or the first thing that's really different is that um the purpose was amended in 2506 so the purpose statement that I read before there was an additional uh kind of to that paragraph which included that um however since the initial purpose of the pced Zone was contemplated the route 15 quarter and the vidity of the pced Zone has become overwhelmed by high-intensity commercial and residential uses in severe traffic congestion and sprawl therefore a restriction of further development in the PC dzone will prevent any further adverse impacts on the community and enhance the once rural character of the area while not exacerbating the free flow of traffic on Route 15 to meet the state njt do Highway access management code um the next change that was made was the permitted uses um were changed in the PC Z Zone from what they exist today so they were adopted exactly as recommended in the master plan element and they were uh then changed in or proposed to be changed by 2506 to agricultural uses on 5 Acres more and outdoor recreation uses except those included as a conditional use or prohibited use um it also removed the existing conditional uses and added a number of prohibited uses to the existing list for The Zone which were largely related to uses that would have had adverse effects on the environment so it talked about um things that had certain chemicals or stuff like that or um as uses that are prohibited um it also reduced the impervious lot coverage allowance from 40% to 30% and then included a number of additional design standards and Provisions uh required to impact studies um the existing architectural and design standards were preserved in the ordinance and enhan Provisions related to Landscaping pedestrian safety and building masses were were added to those design standards as well um in looking at this ordinance um I think I I look back I looked back at the purpose of the 2018 master plan Amendment which talked about permitting um development of large tracks along Route 15 um it talked about them specifically in a planned setting so in the planning world that means like kind of an overall scheme like they did across the street in North Village um and to prevent that that those adverse um impacts on the community um it did this purpose statement specifically did not include those specific uses it didn't say retail uses it didn't say industrial uses it didn't say um anything specific um it just generally said that a planned development would help achieve that um and then I just wanted to note that the two uses that are permitted by ordinance 25-6 are two of the 16 uses that were recommended by the master plan element so they're not different it's not like um they said here's 16 uses that's recommended and we chose a completely different one there are two uses that were stated in the master plan Amendment um and then in looking at the goals that I didn't state but I included in the report um I just went through to see um which ones lined up with this ordinance and in with this ordinance directly which ones could further aren't directly furthered by it on its face but could be realized you know in the future um depending on what kind of development or what kind of use was there in the future um because they were more design related they were talking about um like curb cuts on Route 15 that's not something this ordinance really talked about um and then finally um ones that just weren't furthered by this and were just of inconsistent with it like that so the conclusion of this is that um while many of the overarching goals of the PC D Zone were not violated by ordinance 2506 um the explicit statement uh in the purpose within the ordinance does differ from the initial contemplation of the PC Zone um and it makes it clear why it's looking to restrict further zoning and permitted uses um which is um um it gives reasons that necessarily aren't within the master plan they talk about them being new reasons um and they're just separate from what was included in the master plan in 2018 and discussed in the 2020 re-exam um so it doesn't as I said before the ordinance doesn't introduce any New Uses beyond what the PCD Zone um master plan Amendment had contemplated but it does reduce those uses um and so in what I looked at also was that the PCD master plan Amendment um did recognize context did recognize environmental features sensitivities um and still made recommendations for a mixture of different permitted and conditional uses at a variety of intensities within a plan setting and so um ultimately uh it kind of skirted the line of whether it was it was consistent in some ways but cons inconsistent in other ways largely that purpose statement is inconsistent um and the ml does indicate that the planning board in its consistency revie you should look whether in whole or in part an ordinance is consistent with the master plan and for the reasons um stated in my analysis I believe that um with the basis of the purpose statement is inconsistent and thus the findings of this were that the board my recommendation is that the board should transmit back to the council that this ordinance is in part inconsistent with the master plan um what you can include what the ml allows you to include is you have can include recommendations to the Council of how the ordinance could be um changed to be consistent with the master plan if you think that's achievable um or you can just transmit back to them that it is inconsistent for the reasons um concluded here and what recommendations would you give of how what what could be changed to make it consistent just the purpose statement I think the purpose statement being the the most obvious one yes okay I'm just catching U writing um okay um Dave do you have any you'd like to add nothing further okay anybody from the board Dave do you agree with uh Katherine's assessment as far as the inconsistency yes anybody else um I've got two questions and um need a little help a little guidance on one um so when they deleted the um what removed um some of the permitted uses one of those permitted uses was plan developments um so does this ordinance the way it's where to now allow for plan developments or is it only for separate Lots within the pced zone so that it's if you look at the way per under permitted uses it says the following uses are permitted in the plan commercial economic development in a planned development so it's it still talks about a planned development um and so those uses are technically in required to be in that okay to be so the answer is it's still allows for plan development correct okay so the other question I had is relative to um down in the zone right now there is a an existing plan development um I believe that includes a restaurant a warehouse um and some other shops so would this if if this was approved does this make those existing businesses non-conforming and and if so if somebody if if one of the owners wanted to uh add a new tenant what would the how difficult would that be um so I I believe that if this was adopted it would um basically to create what that's called a pre-existing non-conforming use um I if that is the case um then no and any expansion any change to those um or that's viewed as an expansion would go before the zoning board as what's called a D2 um use variance which is an expansion of a pre-existing non-conforming use so they would have it's the track history is basically like um right now if the let's say hypothetically the ordinance was adopted at that point in time then they become non-conforming uses so they wouldn't have a hard burden to prove that the zoning be made them non conforming the other thing is if they were approved by a zoning board by use variant at any point in time then they would still have to go back before the zoning board for for any use variance for what you just indicated for that scenario so a new tenant application would have to go to the zoning board if it was for one uses that was removed if it was removed or or CH or replaced um so let let's say restaurants or or um office spaces those are two existing so let's say that they want to change the tenant what would the process be oh the tency if they're not changing the building then that's not a D2 do they have a tency ordinance here a change of tenant I don't believe we do okay so if you I would think if you're just changing the tenant and there's no exterior modifications then it doesn't have to you I have to look at your ordinance frankly but but I don't see that coming back okay so if there's a change in signage for for whatever reason you can change the words you can't change the sign right so you don't regulate the letters right the the extents of the sign I'm just talking about let's say you had um you know somebody who had a sign that was originally Mr Smith's and now the new tenant is Mr and Mrs Smith so now it's 16 inches outside the size of the normal of what the be in the same frame though right it's just the yeah I mean the sign still the same it's a same you know 50 square foot sign whatever it's just the name is changing doesn't come here okay um one more other question so let's say for argument sake there's an act of God or a fire um would would the current owners be capable of rebuilding um under under if this ordinance were adopted so are the way the zoning code reads right now only a handful of zones include an explicit statement about rebuilding we don't have any other Provisions about non-conforming uses rebuilding whether it be fire or act of God whatever um we don't have that provision in the ordinance right now okay so there so because that's not outlined does that mean that there would be an issue if they needed to rebuild or they would have to apply for a zoning permit and if they get to if the zoning Officer says it's denied then they'd come before the zoning board as a um expansion of a pre-existing non-conforming use or new depending on how badly it was damaged if you know yeah I was going to say the zoning officer might look at the extent of the damage and determine that he had to come back as a D2 not here right he's going to go to the board of adjustment and he would have to go back maybe it's a D1 if it's not a permitted use it might be a D1 then if it was totally destroyed totally total Destruction he's going back going to the board of adjustment thank you right any further questions all right um is there anyone who would make a recommendation to write a letter to um send this to the town council with um perhaps recommending how the language could be changed to make it consistent by redoing the purp statement No motion I make a motion that we send the letter back Town Council indicating that that this ordinance is not consistent with the m I'll second it just a point of clarification if I can so so the letter would just say it's inconsistent and wouldn't make recommendations is that what we're saying more correct okay thank you and so the board knows and not to interrupt the motion the council does not have to if the planning board makes recommendations Council does not have to change anything it's just a recommendation by the board um so if if you wanted to include it the council has no does not have to listen to that recommendation they can adopt the ordinance by majority vote okay so that doesn't that's not important okay right right okay so we have a motion in a second a roll call please sure councilman Mark Scott yes Janette Bert yes Ronde yes Robert Bleckley yes Brian Zimmerman yes Celeste Luciano yes Ernie backat yes Christine Dunbar yes Vice chairman Robert Autumn Auto yes chairwoman Joon farming yes thank you for your very thorough reports you're welcome all right we're moving on to the public hearing portion of it um the first one is planning board number 24- 726 Lake Mohawk MMA um would you please come the table and just by way of background for everybody this uh applicant had come to the minor site plan subcommittee several months ago um but was referred to the full planning board due to parking going he ofit even Madam chairman distinguished members of the board my name is Todd hooker baset Booker down street I represent Lake Mohawk MMA one point Cy I'm sorry do we need to swear no he's the attorney okay thank you if I'm notor does mean I'm gonna lie he's also not giving testimony it's just tell you what we're about to hear perhaps could you just use the microphone microphone yeah we just need to use the mic for the uh live thank you I have two witnesses tonight uh I represent the applicant who's going to be the tenant um and that's Mr Frank Kerner he's the owner of Lake Mohawk MMA and then the owner of the property Mr Dick Wilson uh property is the Upper Lake Plaza I'm sure if you've been in Sparta for 2 minutes you've know it well it's been around for a long time and he's going to tell us all about it we're here for a site plan waiver because it's a pre-existing building with a pre-existing parking lot and a uh parking variance because it's been there for 40 years and rules have changed and apparently we need more parking now than they did 40 years ago um based on the ordinance but we're going to have some testimony to explain that in fact is not the case um and uh no need to hear from me any further I'm going to bring up Mr Dick Wilson we'll get him sworn in and we can talk about the parking first and then we'll bring in Mr kerer and he can talk about his business and what he wants to do and hopefully we can be out of here uh in pretty short order Mr Wilson come on up here and we'll be sworn in to promise to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth Mr Wilson would you raise your right hand please you solemnly swear you will tell the truth the whole truth is nothing but the truth still help you God and your name for the record please Willam Richard Wilson Jr thank you sir now Mr Wilson you uh own either individually or through some entity the property known as the Upper Lake Plaza yes and is it owned through an entity yes what's the name of the entity Upper Lake Plaza LL C or B or one of those things all right so feel free to sit yeah you can sit down we can sit down how long have you owned uh that property Mr Wilson uh I think I bought it in 83 so it's been a little over 40 years and when was it developed into what did it what exists now is the Upper Lake Plaza in the mid 80s in the mid 80s okay so almost 40 years correct all right so as the owner of the property are you familiar with the the parking situation that exists at the Upper Lake Plaza yes how many spots the microphone a little closer I don't know if it's picking up for the live stream better yes thank you how many parking spaces are there at the Upp Plaza there's 101 okay I know in the planning report there was uh I think the drawing we submitted may have only shown Mr Wilson was was out there uh counting the spots earlier today and you confirmed there's 101 correct all right and those spots have been there for how long close to 40 years since the property was developed pretty much yes we did add a uh an upper lot somewhere is the walon I forget just when that was but uh it's been this way for quite some time now right for more than 20 years yes now in the planning report there's some suggestion that um 127 spots may be required under the existing ordinance um and depending on uh how many uh square feet uh pizza place uses or how many office spes there are there might be more or less but at the end of the day um how many spots on average are taken on a daily basis Mr Wilson uh based on your personal observations over the last 40 years less than 50 okay so of the 101 parking spots your personal observations have been that on on an average daily basis 50 or less spots are used that's correct have you ever seen the lot when it's completely full and there's nowhere to park no and how many uh is the is the property completely full of tenants now besides this this empty space uh we have one that's kind of in limbo right now but all the rest are filled and how big is the space that's in limbo I think it's 1300 square feet okay is that an office space yes okay and is that on the second floor actually it's on the third floor the third floor I realiz it was a third floor a lot of folks don't okay um all right so other than the space that Mr kerer is going to be leasing from you to open up his MMA Studio there's one other space of about 1300 Square F feet of office spaces on the third floor that's not least that's correct all right other than that the the the property is completely quot yes how many tenants is that I believe I have maybe 20 20 or something that let me see if I have like 22 that's pretty close all right and those tenants operate uh during normal business hours and sometimes Beyond normal business hours like the pizza place for example might be open later correct that's correct and not withstanding the 22 or so tenants you have it's your that there's never a lack of parking at the at the property that that's correct we've never had a uh problem with lack of spaces I think I see you have some notes there about some uh some space usage um you have in your hand there can you mind telling the board what what those notes are we've checked the parking uh at least four times in the last couple weeks and like I said there's a 101 total and we tried to do it during busy times uh we got 54 cars at one time at 3:30 in the afternoon we got 37 cars at 10:30 in the morning and we got 35 cars at 1:30 in the afternoon and today at 3:15 there were 44 cars so it's uh seldom is there more than 60 cars there so we have a 101 spots correct correct and um just based on your observations over the past couple weeks there's never more than 60 cars is that correct that's correct and Beyond the last couple weeks you've you've observed this property for almost 40 years correct that's correct and is there ever there's never been a parking issue correct well only human parking issues not uh not with cars right not for a lack of spaces that's correct okay all right in terms of the uh signage there's an existing sign box on the property correct correct and that that doesn't that that's not going to change correct that's correct the only thing that's going to change is the letterings that's in the sign box that's correct so the the sign box that's there has been there for over a decade or more correct yes so the sign box itself the size of the sign isn't changing just the letters are changing that's correct if I have any other questions for for Mr Wilson not maybe the board does or the planner I have one question the uh the unit you're talking about was that what was formerly a dance studio at one time it was a dance studio and then the dance studio mov down a couple drawers to larger space so when it was Dance Dimensions that's the one you're talking about that's correct okay before that it was a karate studio correct at one time years ago it was and uh he needed more space went to the other side of town and ended up buying the building for yeah thank you um so I had put together like a rough estimate of what the parking requirements be just because this is a site plan waiver I know it was before the minor site plan subcommittee where the parking variance was kind of identified um so can you just can you confirm that the number provided um is is accurate the estimation is accurate I think Mr Wilson testified that you actually went and counted the spots I'm sorry that's that's fine I appreciate that I mean more the parking requirements based upon the ordinance so you know I I didn't go into the pizzeria to see what the service area was I may have overestimated or underestimated what the parking requirement would be for that this is just an exercise and how much parking's required under the ordinance did you go in and measure the pizza space how many square feet it is I know that that the tenant space is approximately 1,800 square feet but I don't I don't know if they have a seating area inside it looks like mostly yes they do they do have a seating area and okay and is it mostly I know it has counter service um and I don't know how big the kitchen is but I approximated a little over half of the space is is generates the parking requirement because it does not include service areas and it does not include kitchen areas that's probably close to Accurate okay um and as far as the upper level office spaces was that approximately 11,000 square F feet or so on the second floor we had the ground floor tenant spaces provided to us so I was able to calculate those but with the way the building is articulated it was hard to tell if the spaces on the Upper Floor were bigger or smaller now what specifically is your question how how much office space is on the second floor approximately or how much tenant space is on the second floor okay just one second and the reason why I'm asking this question is I want to make sure the parking variance that they are seeking tonight is accurate in the case that there's another tenant minor site plan down the road and for whatever reason a parking variant gets identified again or a parking generation for that use gets identified again I want to make sure that this will cover you so if we undercount the parking need um whether if the board does approve it um it could hurt future the future interpretation by Professionals in the township um with a future application so I just want to make sure we're it's accurate and it will protect you know the future tenants there's a approximately uh 7 to 7500 to 8,000 square ft on the second floor okay so in the case of my estimation I overestimated how much um so let's say which isn't how about the third floor problematic and the third floor okay there's a little over between 6, 6500 on the third floor so about 145 Al together Office Space plus the on the first floor that's yeah but that's not office space that's retail okay yes sorry again that total for the office space is what okay so the required parkings a little more than what's in Katherine's memo right it's approximately 145 yeah is it you were probably very close that's why I should have trusted that um okay so I think 144 145 is probably the accurate number for the variance relief so if 101 spaces which is what they have and isn't changing the parking variance would be for from the 145 spaces to allow the 101 spaces that's the only question I had for this Witness uh Madam chair and board members uh again just referring back to the report I prepared dated December 11 2024 again with the site plan waiver this is an existing uh building on an existing developed site with regards to any changes with regards to storm water or lighting or anything like that that's already in place uh the one thing I did note was with regards to water they are in the town water system but in addition to that I remember a few years ago Mr Wilson uh had a site plan in before the board for a substantial upgrade to the septic Disposal system so that was taken care of as far as this building goes um with regards to the signage I understand what they're talking about is the signage a box sign or is it individual letters individual letters that that's what I thought just so that was clear on the record on that one um and again with regards to the the main issue of parking on my report I had um I counted on the site plan document that was submitted 98 parking spaces Mr Wilson confirmed 101 uh I had estimated 144 so we're right in the same ballark as far as that goes if the board decides to Grant any uh variance from the parking requirement that's all I have okay thank you we'll bring it to the Das Janette you want to start I just want to make a comment Mr I've spent uh over the years I've been a resident inpart for 44 years and I've spent many hours in your building and I love it it's a a beautiful building to be a part of this town well I appreciate that you're welcome you never had a parking issue right I've never had I still to this day I visit your building at least once a week and I never have an issue so that's even with the UPS store around Christmas you'll find a space that's even with UPS around Christmas I've never had an issue that's the busiest Christmas yeah so January yeah the the reason I had asked which unit it was is you know my uh daughters who are much older now did go to that Dance Dimensions there and I so and I do remember never having a parking issue and I think that's a similar use uh to this as far as the number of people are going to come in maybe even more than because the parents all stick around while their kids are in dance class you know as opposed to there was also at one point I don't believe it's there anymore there was a yoga studio upstairs as well so that's correct so I think you're fine with all of this that's thank you Ron um just for clarification so the dance studio is still there just in a different Suite or have they moved out it's in a different Suite okay thanks so so when you look at your testimony about the the the lot being like 60 cars or something like that that includes the dance studio being there right thank you um and just for the record could you go over the hours of operation and when then I'm gonna skip go ahead let let me say just in that regard like the dance studio has different hours yes which kind of helps balance everything out and uh and I believe the karate uh situation is similar to that in that the hours are late afternoon evening weekends as opposed to 9: to5 five uh businesses thank you no questions no questions um I'll just add Mr Zimmerman's comments on appreciating the building of or the complex that live right around the corner been there over 10 years and have gotten pizza and stuff from there for quite a while longer than that um so yeah uh thanks for keeping keeping it up and I guess I was only curious about the the upper parking lot is that the one to the left if you're looking at it yes and then uh what's the relationship with Lake Mohawk is there a relationship with Upper Lake Plaza and are you a member we're a member of the Lake mohul Community okay so then it's in but you're in the C1 uh Zone okay so then the tenant are members by virtue of I believe they have certain rights because they are a tenant okay yeah I was never really been I was always curious I saw some stuff with Fran Smith way back in the day but all right thank you just reiterating a thank you I'm at The UPS Store pretty often and there really isn't an issue I hope you're closer in line than I was and honestly that's that's even with them sometimes blocking off that one to three spots right in front for the truck those Amazon boxes that's all I can say so um but yes thank you no questions for you but thank you yeah appreciate the stores that you have there use them frequently no questions thank you Mr Wilson we're going to bring Mr ker up now should we hear from Members questions for the public to this witness anybody from the public thank you thank you raise your right hand please do you solemnly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and your name please Frank Joseph Jr I'm sorry a little louder Frank Joseph Kerner Jr and would you spell your last name please a r n r thank you Mr Kor um could you tell the board uh a little bit about uh your background how long you've been teaching MMA where you had your studio previously and and while you're moving to uh Lake Mohawk all right I've been in martial arts pretty much my whole life I started helping out in 97 teaching in Elizabeth um I had a gym in Franklin and called enforcers BJJ and I live right around the corner I'm by Lake lenpy so I wanted something closer to my house so I could see the family more and the kids and just in between classes I could go back home and everything so it' be easier so I spoke to Mr Wilson and we agreed on it the spot so I put in notice for my other gym and they sold the building and then when I didn't get this variance approved the first time the parking so I had to close my other gym down and just been waiting for this spot to come along that's been what since July or August we started the process in June and officially got to it in July so it's been a little bit so um what um are your hours of operation going to be um for your for your gym at the Upper Lake closa all right I don't have definite hours yet but most of the classes are going to be from 5: to 9:00 the latest p.m. p.m. during the daytime I might have a morning class if there's demand maybe a 6 a.m. class I was thinking maybe if I could get enough people um a 9:00 a.m. class for mothers you know when they drop off their kids at school they could come and train learn some self-defense and get a workout and possibly a 12:00 class but I don't know because it's not a popular time especially in this area where most people commute it's not great time so I don't think that's going to happen at all but I just wanted to bring it up to you just in case later you guys would be like hey you never mentioned that time so I just wanted to say that possibly down the road if there's a demand for it right now there's not but so most of the time it's going to be 5: to 9: on the weekends I have to see if there's going to be any demand also because my other gym in Franklin nobody on Saturday showed up and I had like four people on Sunday but yeah it wasn't very popular so I have to see here what the demand is with Saturday and possibly Sunday as well so you're asking the board for for some flexibility on the hours as early as six and as late as 9ine the last when would the last class start the last class would be 8:00 to 9 okay and then um and then potentially if there's some demand and you can build a business you'd like to maybe have a class at 6 a.m. 9:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m. and then the the bulk would be between 5 and 9 correct okay um so you're asking the board for some flexibility on the hours exactly and we based on Mr Wilson's testimony in terms of the parking if it's a 6 a. class it shouldn't be a problem or if there's a 12 p.m class there shouldn't be a problem correct no how many students do you have per class little under 10 usually uh is that because of the space restrictions in terms of the rolling around and the requirements well one I'm picky with the people I have so I like to have a certain group of people that are you know respectable they want to train and they're just good people you know so I I pretty much do an interview I don't let everybody in my gym because I'm not looking for bad apples you know I try to keep it more of a family environment and so class SI to be around 10 yeah on a good day probably smaller though yeah yeah usually like six to eight so we have the hours and the size of the classes in terms of uh your your your your evening classes do people come and park and stay or do they drop off their their MMA people and go do something else well usually for parents they drop their kids off because there a little break you know they get their 45 minutes or an hour break so I would have two parents three parents the most but most of the time is just drop off and pick up you know it works out well too for the dance studio they could drop their kids off one kid could do the Jitsu the other kid could do their dance so we could work something with that too and I know their Studios drop off too I don't have any other questions for Mr kerer maybe the thank you for your testimony um you mentioned that you have um mostly classes lined up do you have anything more free form do you have like normal regulars that train there outside of the class setting oh no okay it's just classes really that you run yeah once in a blue moon I do a private lesson but not really because they're not worth it unless it's something that was like an hour before an hour after okay okay thank you very much I I don't have anything else and just along those lines you don't have any planned competitions where you'd have people show up to observe competitions or anything like that no it's illegal okay yeah yeah okay that's it maybe this time we'll start down with Christine yeah I think that um I think that you answered the question that our engineer asked and that is if you have like a recital day or something where parents come in and they watch and um we have promotion days but no recital they just practice all the time you know what is a promotion day so there's a belt system and like once a year twice a year it depends they'll get their new color belt so it just goes by colors and ranks so once or twice a year you do a small promotion and you know they get their little belt and and and friends and family come and watch as they get their belt family but not really friends you know yeah it's a small thing it's not like the kids have their in Jiu-Jitsu the kids never get to a black belt because it's not real you know so they keep it low there's like the highest level kid belt is a green and then they go to the adult belts after so it's never like this big thing where they get their black belt and it's a big ceremony you know from once they turn 16 they get their blue belt now you're an official adult you know now you got to work your way back up okay so it's a family one one one family or I'm just trying to to visualize um what your promotion day would be like in terms of volume of people oh it won't be that big usually I don't promote every kid at once too because I Go by different standards for kids sure you know it's not like where I'm out there collect money you know charging everybody that's what different martial arts do that's how they make their money on the side but Jiu-Jitsu we don't charge for promotion you earn them so that's a big thing too it's not like a cash grab yeah well children are going to develop their skills at different Paces also ICT yeah okay thank you of course no questions thank you sorry uh I think you said this but how many promotion days per year if it's staggered or if it's not all staggered I don't like to do promotions all together because everybody's on a different Journey so it's kind of not fair to make someone else wait six months you know a year when they deserve it earlier so I'm not big in the huge promotion days maybe I might do one but I don't and my old gym I never did it like that I just did when the person's ready I'll tell the parents you know if you want to come and watch other than that I don't do like this big promotion thing because it doesn't make sense MoneyWise or anything so it's 8 to 10 per class potentially and their promotion days are you you don't think very many per year no I yeah like I said I normally don't do those days at all because it's not worth it yeah I think we're just trying to ask is there gonna be one day like yeah you know where there's just a slew of people but doesn't sound like if there ever was something like that I'd be respectful of the other businesses and do it on a Saturday you know when it's not busy or a Sunday make it a special day but yeah I wouldn't do I wouldn't do it on like a a Monday at 2:30 where it's jammed you know like cram up the whole parking lot no questions thank you no questions um have a question getting back to the hours again which is I guess where I was trying to lead before um if you're starting between five maybe about 5 o'l would you say that the of the professional offices are leaving at that time and freeing up more of the parking space yeah I've never noticed a huge difference after 4 2 to 4 it gets a little bit busy but still there's tons of spots yeah but by 5 and after it's dead you know you you drove by there on the way here tonight right yeah there was 10 cars okay um that's really all I had all right no questions thank you for the testimony uh no questions thank you for the testimony um wish she luck thank you thank you um yeah I did I did want to point out also that we got a uh did get a memo from the traffic sergeant from the police department ger Morris and he uh he also indicated that he's never seen any traffic issues in that with the lot as far as parking so uh we have that from him as well thank you no questions thank youbody from the public see none is um are you done with your testimony then done I am is there someone who would like to make a motion I'll make a motion to approve second it roll call please councilman Mark the motion motion to to to approve with the amend the uh yeah with the parking barri and how many spots are we talking about is it the 44 it was 144 where required where 101 are existing and proposed uh 43 deviation from the yeah okay okay so who seconded I did okay um Ro please councilman Mark Scott yes Janette Burke yes Ronde yes Robert Bleckley yes Brian Zimmerman yes Celeste Luciano yes Ernie ragat yes Vice chairman Robert Alo AO yes chair wman John FY yes congratulations it was a long time coming you so much thank you alling resolution so Mr yes y sh good luck um I know and there's been a request for a five minute break in between while you're coming up and setting up okay thank you you would come back to zoning department submit your zoning application to us um and then I'll review it sign it off uh for approval with um the verbiage in the decision comments that the applicant waved the rights of the reading of the resolution then we'll pass it over to the building department uh he can come to the office uh tomorrow if he would like okay thank you have a good night thank you gentlemen Good Luck Good Luck Good Luck where were we with this PO engineer e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay um next we'd like to welcome uh PB number 24- 723 pops Bagels YK yhk realy welcome welcome thank you good evening Madame chair members of the board board professionals uh Rich wenner ly savaji and con here again on behalf of the applicant pops Bagel uh we were last year before the board on December 18th of 2024 uh just for the board's recollection and perhaps um refresher for for new board members if it looks like there might be some or at least you're sitting in different places than you were last last year um this is a proposal to uh convert a former service station on the property located at for Sparta AV into a bagel shop and a proposal of an addition of approximately 3 um21 foot addition when we were last here I'm going to say if that's okay cuz when we were last here uh we had approximately two plus hours of testimony uh from our architect as well as our engineer um and we had a pretty what I thought was a pretty good colloquy with the board and the board professionals and as a result uh of that colloquy in December uh what started off as an application needing uh several uh C variances for the signage uh resulted in an elimination of um the sign variances that were initially proposed um we are left with uh pre-existing impervious coverage it's a reduction of what's already there um from approximately 96% to 91% and there are some design waiver requirements which we still need to discuss with the board and the board professionals uh relative to parking we have more than enough parking space however the dimensional uh the dimensions of the parking spaces is what we need waivers on before I get into the uh bringing our our experts forward and on the testimony uh one of the conversations that we had at the last meeting involved the freestanding sign and there were certain uh there are some board members who stated a what I took to be a strong preference to that sign be eliminated um and we took that into consideration and our proposal tonight for the board is to remove the freestanding sign and in its place install a more uh contemporary pedestal Monument sign um so it would be a reduction in the height of of the sign itself it'd be ground mounted um and we can talk uh about that more to the board but we want to start off uh tonight with letting the board know that we did hear its concerns on the Aesthetics of what's currently there we are trying to uh work with the board and and present a project that's what you want to see um so thought I get that out of the way initially um so we do have Bill stimmel who is our traffic engineer he's also a uh professional engineer we had conversations at the last meeting regarding the traffic and the traffic circulation and the board may recall that uh you know ultimately dot is going to have the trump card to play as to Ingress egress out of the out of the property um but I believe it was uh board member Dunbar I think it was Miss Dunbar who had questions about uh circulation on or you were environmental ma'am you had environmental questions I did okay so anyway there were there were comments and questions about the traffic so you know Mr stimo is here tonight to answer any questions that the board of the board of professionals may have on the traffic and then uh Matt Flynn is our professional planner he's with John McDon and Associates he's here to provide uh testimony and support of what now re re uh resulted in about two two variances a sidey which are pre-existing and then the impervious coverage which is pre-existing and he can also speak to the the sign proposal as well um and not to take up too much more time of the board but miss Dunbar did have question last meeting in December about the environmental we did submit to the board uh a report from the licensed site remediation professional uh applied Earth Solutions that's a letter dated January 13th of this year giving an update and a summary on the current state of the environmental re remediation for the property and just uh to get to the cut to the chase the entire site will be remediated in compliance by uh 2526 so it's uh I hope that satisfies the board's legitimate concerns about the property and we're trying to keep the board apprised of what's going on so without further Ado um we can jump right into the planning testimony if you'd like and then if there's any questions on on uh site plans that you still might have we can have Mr stimo speak to that but Matt you want to come forward Matt would you raise your right hand please you solemnly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got I do and your full name for the record please Matthew Flynn f l YNN thank you and Matt if you would would you just provide to the board your uh your credentials your educational background how long you've been practicing and advise whether your licenses are current and in good standing in the state of New Jersey sure my education comes from Ruckers I have my master's degree in planning and public policy I have my professional plannner license in the state of New Jersey as well as the national lenser which is the aicp license for planners it's my first time to have the uh pleasure to be before this board however I have been before over a hundred other boards across the state and Matt your license is current with the state yes thank you any comments for the board we accept his uh qualifications thank you yeah all right mat could you just explain to the board the uh specification for the variances that we are still seeking on this application yeah so by way of background I think this is a pretty exciting application um we are in the Town Center area which I'm sure the board is familiar with it's a historically significant area um so there is some significance there in terms of uh restoring older buildings um I wouldn't say that this is necessarily A Historic Landmark but we are preserving the existing building and we do feel the result is going to be a nice touch to the streetcape and uh really I think uh meet the intent of the zoning to sort of bring these older buildings back to life um and tell a nice story of going from old to new um here the nice thing is we are actually replacing a non-permitted use with a permitted use so again this is a sensitive uh area This Town Center area there are some specific guidelines in zoning specific to this this area um and so by replacing a non-permitted use with a permitted use we think this is a beneficial application uh not only that but we are respecting um the vast majority of the bulk requirements again keeping the existing building so the the only two variants is we're seeking our setbacks which are existing conditions um by virtue of keeping that building exactly where it is uh and then the only technically new variance is lock coverage which is actually an improvement over the existing condition so we are adding some green um to the property um so with that those are the variances that we're seeking and just to go through the statutory criteria um Al I think we can look to the C2 balancing test the benefits of the application as a whole substantially outweigh any detriments um the positives come from the municipal land use law the purposes of zoning I think we can look to purpose a promotion of the general welfare again replacing a non-permitted use with a permitted use uh again in keeping with the intent of the zoning purpose G variety of uses in appropriate locations I'll quote the the zoning ordinance here um in terms of the purpose of this TCC Town Center Zone quote this Zone provides for Community commercial uses to complement and enhance the existing retail and service use and historic character in the Town Center area end quote so I think really um clearly this is a community commercial use I think the name implies it's a mom and pop shop actually it's a child Pop Shop the name of the of the place is pops this is going to be a community commercial establishment that's really going to serve the local community um purpose ey desirable visual environment um this is a visually prominent uh Corner property this is going to be an upgrade to a long-standing building again an exist Auto Service building and we're going to revitalize that with something that the Zone specifically anticipates which is a restaurant use um not only that in terms of building upgrades but also in terms of the parking as the board knows this is like I said an existing Auto Service use so by virtue of that you do get that sort of free-for-all parking Arrangement there's no uh striping on the property it's your typical uh Auto Service type circulation and parking Arrangement one of the benefits of this application is that this is going to look cleaner more organized with dedicated striping dedicated parking spaces uh compliant in terms of number of parking spaces and finally purpose M of the municipal land use law is efficient use of land uh in terms of efficiency it doesn't really get any better than uh adaptive reuse of existing buildings again it's not a a complete demolition of what's out there today it's really working with with the site um and so with that I do want to I think Rich was this that was previously marked that was yeah was that previously marked yes that's uh the that was marked as A1 architectural rending rendering and 3D color yep yeah so the I'm just going to show the board just as a refresher here exhibit A1 is uh like Council mentioned the architectural rendering um these existing or I'm sorry these proposed windows are actually where the exist ing garage basar on the building so like I said it's sort of a nice thing that respects the old and uh of course brings in the new it does retain that that appearance of you can look at it and sort of get the sense that this wasn't an auto service uh establishment at some point and again respecting that and really upgrading it and I think that sort of uh meets the intent of the zoning there with a nice new building um that that upgrades a a non-permitted use so all of that goes towards the positive criteria um what makes this a beneficial project the flip side to that is the negative criteria no substantial detriment to the public or to the Zone like I mentioned in terms of bulk variances we're not worsening any of the bulk conditions lock coverage is increas is uh improving uh which of course is is a benefit there in terms of Aesthetics in terms of functionality um and Zone uh compliance and of course setbacks are existing conditions so really respecting what's out there today working with what's out there today not proposing something that's going to stand out as brand new from a massing standpoint um or introduce something that that's not already out there um really upgrading what's what's out there today uh so all said I think this really does represent a really uh great and fun opportunity to revitalize this property with some very attractive architecture again in keeping with the intent to respect the old and of course um bring in the new replacing a non-permitted use with a permitted use improving impervious coverage um with all that said I think this is a a very appropriate project and approval is warranted so if there's any questions I know I'm I was brief so I'm happy to answer anything Janette Brownfield um well thank you very much for your commitment to remediating the property I think that's wonderful um and uh the fact that we're going to hopefully have a bagel place uh right in the Town Center I think that'd be great um I don't have any other questions I mean I I'm very satisfied with what you guys have come up with thank you no questions I have no questions R yeah so if I can just going back to the testimony last time just make sure I remember so I think for the signs the agreement was that all the signs were going to be brought into conform yes um in the spaces you're looking for a variance there the parking lot size design design waivers design wav yes thank design wavers on the parking on theion also a design waiver for um for the um I can go through them I I neglected to go through the design waiv so I'd be happy to just list those out for you awesome um bear with me okay so we we are requesting five design waivers all related to the parking uh Arrangement number one uh a 24t wide drive a is is required behind 90 degree parking spaces we're proposing 20 feet instead of the 24 feet uh number two here uh minimum parking space size we're proposing 9 by8 whereas 9 by 20 is what's required uh 9 by8 is really typical especially on a smaller development uh such as this one uh number one loading space is required whereas no loading space is proposed if the board will recall our engineer actually testified to that at the last heing when loading and unloading will occur um off peak hours um where it won't uh interact or uh jeopardize the circulation on the property number four requires that sidewalks are to be separated from parking areas by 4 feet whereas the proposed sidewalks are adjacent to the parking area I think again we can look to the small scale nature of the site we're not looking at a sea of asphalt where someone might have to meander through that um this is really going to be a quick and easy in and out of the of the building and finally number five uh curbing is required around all parking areas whereas we're not proposing Park uh curbing is is required around all parking areas whereas we're not proposing curbing along the sparta Avenue and woodport Road sides of the parking lot again all this was testified by the engineer at the last uh meeting and really again I think we can look to the small scale nature of the property it's not going to stand out as being something that is this vast uh um situation that's that flies in the face of the zoning so really this is all going to function safely and efficiently and the planning rationale we can look to the municipal landus law uh section 51 whether the relief is uh warranted by being reasonable or appropriate and I think by virtue of the fact that this is going to function safely efficient ly um meets that standard the um the new uh freestanding sign the pedestal mounted one is do you have a is there a design a drawing or something or anything we can look at there or is that something that would come before the uh I don't believe plan sub committee right we would bring for the minor site plan and it's just yeah so and and um it's it's not going to I want to make sure our nomenclature is correct so we're talking not so when we talk about freestanding it's what's currently there we're talking about a ground mounted us had a what's it's you know Wawa kind of you know the the traditional what is now traditional kind of uh ground mounted sign I can show that that's something across the street that's similar across the street pass it around or you can just reference it okay uh yeah so if we look at uh this is actually a similar sign style that we see along Sparta Avenue here specifically I noted one at 19 Sparta Avenue which is Cafe I'm going to mispronounce it per pero maybe um a very similar sign if the board might be familiar with something like that and with appropriate landscaping and and also if I can't remember from the last testimony um I think Mr Simmons have brought up the lighting design that you were going to look into um replacing the the current parking lighting with something more uh suitable to the the streetscape yes Mr chairman and and board members Madam chairman board members um what I recall was uh we suggested to your engineer that the fixtures that were going to be used uh stay in line with the streetcape that's out there along spart Avenue and we can provide them with details of those fixtures yes and also we can verify the foot candles on the site to make sure it's adequately lit that's correct and we had no objection to that okay um and I so I guess the last question I have then is and it sounds like you may have answered already so the free the new freestanding sign or the pedestal man of sign will not be in there's no internal lighting internally illuminates signs right these will all be indirect lighting right we're going to do indirect indirect lighting okay all right thank you and they'll be I'm sorry and they'll be within the um 12 square foot requirement correct it right okay yes okay um there was some conversation about um the parking spaces where you were requesting 16 but only 13 were required and there was going to be some consideration to looking into that maybe having some um going back to 13 and having some other Green Space in there was that considered yeah I don't want to yes we did have a conversation about that internally and the preference is to is to keep it at the proposed 16 uh if the board will recall some of those spaces are going to be devoted to employee parking those would be the first three as you're coming in right so and I can have uh either haam or or Y uh come up and speak about again the operations but um there's a a quick In-N-Out uh generally at the store and they believe that operationally it makes sense to have the 16 with three devoted to employee parking leaving three for customers um but you are discussing or you will do a appropriate landscaping and as to the extent possible um beautify the area which is current mostly parking lot now as you know Joan can I correct you real quick you said 12 square feet on the signs is actually uh 24 square feet thank you you're welcome whatever whatever I saw that it's going to be conforming whatever whatever the code calls for we are going to be conformance I don't know why I wrote that down last time if that somebody said it um the other thing and I don't know if this is for you um but we had talked about making it one way and I know the do is going to be looking at that as well but I was thinking about it as people are backing out and if you have one backing out in this direction because they want to go out Sparta Avenue and somebody backing out in that direction because they want to go out the other street that it might be an issue so it's absolutely yes so Mr stimo is here who prepared the traffic report that was submitted to the board and he can certainly testify all right I'll wait for that thank you Mr Scott okay uh question why why are you going to eliminate the curbing are we talking about the curbing that's that's going to be on the rounded corner I think I'll defer that also to the engineer just we can wait for him to just Mr can address that okay who would who would address the size of the parking spots uh he could address that as well but uh just to add to to my testimony regarding the size like I said 9 by8 is something that we see fairly commonly in in developments like these and also we do have constraints both in terms of the width of the aisles as well as the parking spaces given the constraints of the of the site itself we have an existing building that we're working with so that only leaves uh the space that it that it leaves for for circulation and parking and so we feel that this is is really the the only option but again I'll defer to the engineer okay and I don't want to speak for everybody else but I'll just speak for myself and I want to tell you that we're not necessarily attracted or or or or glued to the gas station look okay I mean I I if it if it was a had a tutor style look or or something similar to what Lake Mohawk and also the other and the and the and the other buildings that are on the corner there look that that would certainly be uh uh acceptable and and uh attractive to us or to me um and that's it I'll reserve my other questions for the uh traffic engineer thank you thanks I'm good for now but thank you well while I'd Echo the comments on the uh Aesthetics I also understand the applicant has spent money to work up a design design and so I'm going to appreciate that and uh thank them for a trick fitting a a tricky uh tricky site plan into that space just one quick question um is there a reduction in the impervious coverage overall there is can you can you just reiterate what that is yeah that's I'll tell you right now that is currently 98.4% going down to 91.7% I'm sorry that was 29 291 7 73 thank you y um the last time that you were here um we talked a little bit about plantings that you try to work in some hopefully native plantings U are we going to hear about that uh I was intending to bring more testimony that my recollection was the last uh board hearing we uh agreed to work with the township engineer uh on on the S and on the plantings we we saw and heard the concerns regarding native plantings and there's no objection from us at all in working with the township to make sure that what is planted is what you want to see planted problem where were those plantings going to be again uh well if you wouldn't mind I have biller when he comes up and talk about the site plan and it'll show that on there thank you you're welcome there was a there was a letter from the environmental commission talking about that y the native plantings yes okay and when you were talking about the new sign I think I heard you mention plantings as appropriate presumably at the base or around that sign so okay questions from the public Jenny Jenny okay hearing none I thank you and uh we'll move on to your next witness thank you I mean are there any questions from the board professionals Mr Flynn the the only question I had with and I know you don't have the plan for it tonight but on what I'm calling the monument sign I just want to make sure it's in the record that that does not I don't know where it is on the plan yet but to make sure it's not in any site triangle easement right it won't be and Mr stimel can certify that as well when he gets his testim okay and that's not part of this application now right you're just going to come back on on a minor site plan for the for that Monument sign on on the yes we the before the sub that would be for all of the signs because what you proposed you said you were going to reduce to come into into conformance so we'd like to see them and you did say you would come back with some kind of renderings as part of our final plan submissions on approval we got approval so we would submit revised drawings for the comments and conditions agreed to at the December 18th hearing but we'd like to see them all at the minor site plan subcommittee and look at it as a whole not peace me okay whatever you want we also had a question um with respect to the employee parking is it designated yes by signage yes that shown on your plan it will be okay I had no comments for this for this witness thank you thanks thanks all right this point I will call Bill stimo a traffic engineer he's also professional engineer in the state of New Jersey who can uh speak to the site plan as well would you please raise your right yes raise your right hand please do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got I do and your full name please William stimel STI mm L would you mind giving the board your credentials your educational background and uh confirming that your license is standing in the state of New Jersey please sure I'm a graduate of NGIT with a bachelor's degree in civil engineering I've been working for the past 25 years in the state of New Jersey as an engineer with a particular focus in traffic engineering I've been a licensed engineer since 2004 my license is current I'm also a certified professional traffic operations engineer and I've taught as an adjunct at the civil engineering department at NJIT in a senior level uh Transportation design class and I I've been accepted as an expert witness in front of or on behalf of boards in many many municipalities in New Jersey but not not here in Sparta your license is current in a good standing on the City New Jersey yes yes it is any questions for the board no he's accepted then as an engineer thank you thank you you can stand or have a seat whatever you like there were a few questions that were asked by the by the board members uh one was regarding the circulation on on the property could you address that please yes the uh going to refer to the plans that were submitted at the last round of hearings uh these are the drawings prepared by Mr Adon Khan awz engineering flipping to she CO3 sorry ad now um so a as the board had noted there is the 24 foot wide aisle to the east of the building and the 24 uh 20 foot wide aisle pardon uh to the north of the building on Sparta Avenue the proposed parking dimensions are typically 9 by8 aside from the handicap parking of course um 9 by1 18 is a is a fairly widely accepted standard in the engineering world you do sometimes see ordinances that require 9 by9 9 by 20 10 by 20 and various other dimensions and and generally speaking that additional length and width is not necessary unless you're talking talking about an environment where you have a lot of shopping cart strollers something like that for additional maneuvering space between or behind the vehicles so in this context the 9 by1 18 is more than adequate based on accepted engineering standards as far as the aisle width goes we have no issue with the aisle width on the east side of the building at that 24 ft meets the municipal standard we are requesting a design waiver for the aisle whip on the north side of the building towards Sparta Avenue where it's 20 ft the intention is that the majority of vehicles aren't the size of the full design vehicle which is a large pickup or a large van something of that nature and can safely maneuver in and out of the parking spaces with that 20 foot aisle uh the larger Vehicles would need to encroach somewhat into the public RightWay and I when I say public right away I don't mean the street I mean that they would overhang a little bit into that sidewalk area uh this is essentially what would have been an existing condition when the gas pumps were located in front of the building between the building facade and Sparta Avenue the vehicles on the outside or the north side of the pumps would already be parked within that public RightWay so it's it's essentially an existing condition we did anticipate the the possibility that the board would have concerns about pedestrian safety at that location and when we went out and counted cars at the intersection pedestrians were counted as well minimal volumes of pedestrian traffic at that location so we don't anticipate a conflict there uh in terms of vehicles backing out of spaces intending to go opposite directions within the internal drive aisles um you know the site is does have a fair amount of turn turnover uh bagel shop coffee shop like this typically people come in and out within a short period of time you get what you're there for and you leave and you're off to work or wherever you're going so it does have a fair amount of turnover but it's um it's not any different than if you were at another shopping center if you were at the supermarket you've got cars pulling out all the time you have to look out for the people in the space next to you and yield uh the aisles are certainly wide enough to accommodate traffic traveling in opposite directions and by allowing cars to travel both ways through the site you allow people to make lefts and rights out onto Sparta Avenue or Mohawk Avenue and get traffic going to its ultimate destination with the minimum of additional maneuvering if you make it oneway driveways you you essentially Force more turning movements at the uh at the adjoining intersection or on the surrounding roadway Network so don't anticipate uh a safety issue with it necessarily and feel that it provides the best opportunity for for the drivers to get to to their ultimate destination uh as as the board attorney and the board or as the applicant's attorney and the applicant's planner had both noted ultimately the distribution of traffic at the site driveways the movements that are permitted the flow within the property is going to come down to the review and approval of do as the roadway is under State jurisdiction at that location so we would certainly abide by whatever the do says yeah the curbing uh there there's no intention to remove the curbing along the Street frontages there there's going to be section of curb where full height curb is constructed where the existing driveway on Sparta Avenue closest to the intersection is closed so we're going to have new full height curb at that location we are going to replace the curbing if and where directed by I would imagine the municipal engineer uh but whoever the appropriate entity is in Sparta the curving is not going to be provided between the site parking lot and the the public right of way along both frontages uh there are wheel stops proposed where the space is about but the RightWay along Mohawk Avenue uh and the curb is going to be flush with the sidewalk along Sparta Avenue and again that's an existing conditions so that's where the waiver comes in for not providing the curving someone had asked about Landscaping yes no specific pafic plantings have been selected at this point I think the most obvious location for landscaping would be along the western property line which uh where the site abuts the liquor store and the Southern Property Line adjacent to the Mohawk Avenue driveway uh we could propose some low plantings in the landscape area adjacent to the intersection particularly around the base of the sign just to give it a little more aesthetic appeal and would certainly be willing to work with the with the board or their professionals to to select the plantings okay we'll start with Mark hi um I spent a lot of time with this drawing and and and and standing on the site trying to figure out how just knowing that intersection knowing the way the lights are timed and the way uh traffic accelerates uh in in particular going West on Sparta Avenue um how could how could this can you tell me how they how either of these inter either of these entrances could have anything other than right turns allowed here yeah if there I I would imagine the concern is related to queuing the traffic light certainly yes sir if you try to pull out of the site and you want to make a left turn onto Sparta Avenue and the queue is extended across the site Frontage you have to wait for the queue to clear correct you can make a right uh it's the same situation on Mohawk Avenue what we find with these sites is that the the people that are there off peak hours there's not as much traffic on the roadway the quees aren't extensive will'll make the left turns out when they can if you're in a hurry to get to work and you stop here for coffee and you can't get out of the site let's say making that left on despart Avenue there's plenty of other places to get coffee you're not going to come to this location or you're not going to come to this location at 8:00 in the morning on your way to work maybe on Saturday morning it's a different story so there's a bit of self-regulating with it there's the convenience-based nature of the trips associated with this application you know bagel shops coffee shops donut shops there are other opportun unities to get your coffee if you're in the car for half an hour you're probably going to pass 10 different places you can get coffee and if it's not convenient for you to get in and out of this site and it's a convenience-based trip you're just not going to go here you're going to go somewhere else so we anticipate that a large volume of traffic going to the property is going to be right in right out certainly not all of it uh and the people that are making lefts are going to wait for the cues to clear they're going to wait for a gap in the traffic and the report showed based on the count we provided at the site that that traffic could get in and out of the site efficiently even during the morning peak hour okay because it says in your report that you're anticipating approximately 90 to 98 cars per hour corre yeah right and you've got is it 16 non-employee spaces there's 16 parking spaces 13 you said nonemployee space okay non well without the employee space 13 okay so that means that you're that you're okay you're you're anticipating turnover of of of seven times an hour per each spot corre right okay so you're gonna have a lot of action here with 13 cars and I'm just wondering you you said that there was that there was no curbing on the sparta Avenue side our our cars just be able to come in maybe okay I understand that yeah to clarify there's no curbing in the interior of the property between the parking area and the sidewalk that's the that's the existing condition if you went out there tonight the curbing that's there on Sparta Avenue between the street and the sidewalk is going to remain so okay so I'm coming out I'm coming out I first of all I I I park in the spot that's directly to the left of the handicap spot okay and I back up correct and I want to go West on Sparta Avenue how do I do that I have to do a complete 180 degree turn coming in in the in that tight parking lot yes sir I I'm parked head in I I come I'm going West on Sparta Avenue I'm going towards the towards the intersection okay and and I pull in I pull into the spot directly to the left of the handicap spot right there correct correct I get my coffee I get my bagel I'm very happy and I want to go now I want to go west again on Sparta Avenue back the way you came right what do I do you back out of the parking space with the rear of the car going toward the intersection you pull forward to the driveway make the left turn out onto spart Avenue okay but I'm looking right and I've got cars that are coming around The Jug Handle and coming up the hill right are they going to see me if there's a car turning to the right if I decide that I'm going to just dodge out as soon as a car that comes past me from from left to right and is making a turn on to uh woodport road is that car that's coming through The Jug Handle going to see me you're con you're not talking about on the site now you're talking about pulling out on so I've got my bagel and my Coffey I'm really happy but and I want to go left okay and and there's a car at the intersection there's a car or there's a car that's just gone past me from left to right and it's G and now it's going to make her right on what we call woodport Road or 181 and and another car or multiple cars is coming through The Jug Handle and whisking Through The Jug Handle and they don't see me I don't see them because there a car between us right and and and now I'm making a leftand turn it's like any other left-hand turn you're going to have to wait until traffic is clear I think it's just the self-regulating right so you're just going to go out the other way then right well I'm just saying I I I I can't imagine how you make a left hand turn yeah you would go out the other exit and Come Around The Jug you could do that right you could do that and that makes a lot of sense absolutely correct Celeste but as as so we do that that has to become a learned experience right you have to learn through in in other words there's no what we're saying is that we're going to allow people to go left or right and then they're just going to have to figure it out after a few times here that they're going to go right that they can only go right because that that's really the only way you can get out or I mean what if they want to go what if they want to go out on to woodport Road and make a left traffic is typically backed up there right it's it traffic is always backed up there coming from woodport Road up up the slope past past what used to be the pizza store and now it's a empty screen the screen store right okay you're coming up and you've got cars that are backed up there how am I going to possibly make a left-hand turn when I've got cars coming coming south on right I'm sorry I'm not arguing with you I'm just saying I'm just concerned that a left-and turn is just in either of these um is is a challenge you're the professional though so that's just to back you up just to back him up um I have in my notes here from last time that um it was going to be a right turn only no left turns on both exits and I wrote that down I started and that was going to be one of the conditions so I was surprised to hear something different this time I don't have that was discussed I don't have that as I just re listen to the whole YouTube today before coming in and that's what we agree to that as a condition the the other I I wasn't at the last hearing um the the other thing I would say is that the site it's not an existing gas station but it had been a gas station significant generator of traffic you had a driveway roughly at the location of the the driveway that's to remain on Sparta Avenue you had another driveway which was right on the intersection and you have a driveway on Mohawk Avenue and as far as I could tell that the the lot's been repayed but there were no prohibitions on turning movement with that we didn't have the traffic a population difference of maybe 50% I would just yeah I would just add that I don't see it as the problem that I think it's being demonstrated because you said it's going to self-regulate I agree it's going to self-regulate and just trying to let you guys know that I don't think it's going to allow for turning left out of there I I agree um but just trying to let you guys know local knowledge is kind of like no way yeah I Wason say the do is also gonna weigh in on this and I can't imagine that they're going to allow a you know a traffic travesty right so I think I think yeah if they come up and visit us maybe if they actually come and see the site I mean the D has approved sites here in town and never came up actually said Kurt's report said that he had no issue if you you if you look at Catherine's um reports on page two there's it's actually a picture of the site in in color and doesn't say what time it was or anything like that but clearly the the traffic on woodport road at that at that light would prohibit anyone from making a left-hand turn at that time this is just a snapshot I mean it's it could have been highest time I just find it funny that the only snapshot the house yeah the you would have a difficult time making a left onto woodport road with the queue there but you could also just make the right out of the other driveway and turn left to the right correct why why saying aware yeah it's yeah it's going to self-regulate I agree why is there an OB doing the left hand turn sign nothing full full inventive there was understanding we did I apologize but we had and that's why that's why we have Mr St here today because we understood there was concerns about the circulation of the profit here my recollection in the 18th meeting was that we obviously heard these concerns regarding left and right the parking lot uh we acknowledged that do had ultimate approval because it was under dot uh jurisdiction and at that time we were not willing to uh commit to limiting the the left turn or right turn out of the proper so it's not it's not a new objection it was it was an objection that we had prior and if I can just you know if I may just anecdotally my part my my office is on 517 in hacktown it is an incredibly busy Ro I have to make a left I have to cross over two lanes sometimes I'm sitting there for five minutes waiting for a break in traffic to make that leftand turn so I and I only have one exit out of my office I have no choice I can't I can't do it another way around but you also will recall the testimony from the applicant regarding the operation the operational hours of this build of this of this site 4:00 in the morning is when they open they shut down 2 2:30 um maybe 3 p 3 p p.m. in the afternoon so there are going to be times during the day when the business is open when you're not going to have the the volume concerns that you want to talk to that I I have one thing I'd like to add to the the point our attorney was just bringing up is that the projections of site generated traffic in the report are based on data published by the it there's no specific corollary to bagel shop so I use the coffee donut shop without drive-thru which represents and I'm not going to name any names but think of your typical large scale coffee and donut chain and the volume of traffic that they generate our client almost jumped through the phone at me and said we you know we're not going to have that volume of traffic we're going to have roughly half of what the big chains do and that's still a pretty successful business I would think so the numbers were projected in the report based on the best available data we analyzed the intersection we analyzed the driveways and found that everything operated successfully so there was no need to adjust those numbers I I think if you called the client up here he's not expecting to have 90 cars in and out of there every morning so I I think you know if that's part of the concern we should also bring that to light don't don't don't get me wrong I am extremely Overjoyed that you are going to do what you're going to do here that you're going to make this eyesore into a a beautiful store a useful store hopefully a very popular store I'm just concerned that if this planning board allows you to make a left-and turn out of either of those intersections H how do we roll back the clock once we've had 10 20 30 40 accidents no one of the board members bill just asked me if I had the letter from from the from the Township's um traffic consult who a police officer you know you do have your back and no no concerns with no problem yeah I have it here I mean Kurt Kurt reviewed the traffic impact analysis that was provided and agrees with the conclusion that there would be little to no traffic uh no impact on traffic operations so um again I think we're all happy to see the site being developed um and I mean for me personally I want the business to be successful so I'm happy to hear that they weren't expecting 90 you like that that wasn't their success wasn't tied to that number because I don't see it happening but I I'm similarly concerned but if it's going to self-regulate whatever then fine what about for someone that arrives here for the first time they haven't learned the self-regulation they speak yeah I don't mean this in a flipp manner at all but I'm I'm hopeful that a person who's behind the wheel of an automobile about to pull out in the traffic will will stop and recognize that I can't pull out yet because there's a volume of traffic coming and we'll have the common sense to to wait until there is a break in traffic and I I mean that sincerely um the the report that that bill prepared doesn't identify a safety issue with the uh proposed Ingress and egress out of the property the Township's uh this expert or consultant does not identify an issue and ultimately again it's a DOT jurisdiction so we're going to have do comes back says hey no way you know no it's right turn right turn only you're not doing left turn even if the board says Hey left turn is great doesn't matter because we gota we got to go through doot um but what we don't want to do at this point is unnecessarily and I don't want to say arbitrarily because your your points are valid your concerns are valid but unnecessarily uh hamstring the the applicant in what is hopefully going to be a new business that opens up within the township and the past any prediction of future success a successful business by limiting the in Ingress and egress out of the property for its customers and that's that's you know that's where we're coming at we we are and I think the board can appreciate and recognize how much we have heard your concerns and how much we have willingly not even grudging like willing because we want to be good neighbors work with the board on on on the signage issues on on all aspects honestly of of this application to bring it to bring the the board and the township a project and a product that it wants to see it it's downtown we we hear you and that's what we're trying to do but but this really is a you know I don't I don't want to say it's not a concern because you're again your points are valid your concerns are valid but we think we presented proofs in support of our proposal and you know we would just respectfully request that the board you know give us this so if I could you know similar to M fman you know my notes after listening to the tape went back and listen to it had had an agreement that there would be no left turn out of either Exit I think there was still conversation going on about being a left turn into the parking lot and and who controlled that but but I was to me my notes I got I'm going to have to back and look at the tape I will as well and and what I like to do is I think you you're hearing a pretty loud concern here I'd like you to reconsider that uh I understand your position tonight I I I think it's inconsistent with with your position at the last meeting and like you to to rethink having no left turns going out of the parking lot so Madam may I I couple just a comment Mr Simo what if during the um peak times let's say 7 am to 9:00 am there was a no left turnout only for those times right where it would be maybe more appropriate um because of the rush hour would the applicant be willing to do that and I recognize the jurisdiction is going to go to do but the board could impose a condition asking the applicant when you submit to do to to specifically tell a do that this board requested in no left turn between certain hours have to take that up with the applicant I can't identify a specific safety I don't know if you can do it today or you're planning on coming back or we very interesting well that's we love being here you want to take a couple minutes yeah that's actually a very good point because right on that on that there is a timed uh right turn During certain hours why C Street above yep and that's I think that's a great recomendation I'm just hey I'm just going to add that I've come out of the liquor store adjacent and I have gotten out on the left but very infrequently so more often than not I go right it's just I'm just trying to let you guys know to set your expectations no matter what is decided that um that's just local is the are we discussing a restricted no left turn yes signage 7 to9 something like that that's or similar to what's there now that would also right that would also require additional signage right you sure at the exits right so we have to we have to take that into consideration also well those are regulatory also it's it's also the school hours right you know kids are getting out of school every parent is driving picking up their kids so that 3:00 2:00 that's very busy as well well I think it's CL they're closed yes but time right before closing so so my concern is a little different is again weekends where there is no school and and there's going to be a lot of traffic at that intersection um and if we're going to talk hours what are the hours I I go back to I I I want to go back and listen to the tape because I was pretty clear the agreement with no left turns I me I'm not argu not all my recollection we did agree to that I'm not here knowingly you know changing what I totally understand I just wanted to bring it to your attention I appreciate that thank you we can we have five four three minutes can we take a five minute break yeah five minute break please now it wasn't s e e e e e e e e e e e e mam chair we uh had an opportunity to discuss in for formerly uh the board's request and what we are proposing is to eliminate leftand turns on out onto Woodmont but maintain left hand turns uh that just referring to the site plan again the uh what we'd be proposing is to give up left turns out onto Mohawk Avenue because that left turn movement can be replicated by going out the site driveway onto Sparta Avenue making a right hand turn and going through the traffic signal also that driveway is significantly closer to the intersection than the driveway on Sparta Avenue we be proposing to maintain the lefts out on despart Avenue because of the greater separation and the fact that if you take that that movement away then it either forces people to abandon the trip or recirculate through the uh through the area to the South to get to where they're going when does the D do rule or do their I mean do they do it after our approval or prior to our approval I mean how's this all work speak that but any condition of of this board's approval will be dependent upon obtaining Outside Agency approval so we would get this hopefully this board's approval first and then we would submit an application to the de what's wrong with going out making a right onto 181 woodport Road and then going around The Jug Handle for your left that's that was the whole reason The Jug Handle was put in that's what they're proposing only right hand out on to 181 181p Road the one next to B you can backwards if you can if you can but most people if there's if there's a queue and it's busy they're gonna go I'm not waiting here and they're gonna make they G to go around the self regulating correct but what are they going to do here they are oh wow there is a queue there and and they've got their car pointed out of that intersection I think we should bring this to what are they G to do back up now and then go out the other side that's that's that's what I'm concerned about I mean just unnecessarily it sorry because because if you made if you made it maybe I'm overthinking it but and I'm not a CH you know professional here but I just know that I I just if you're about if you're trying to pull out on topart Avenue and make the left turn and you say you know there's there's there's a queue there's traffic I can't get out I can't get out I can't get out you just wait for the queue and make the right turn and go to the traffic light and then recirculate through the neighborhood or go to The Jug Handle and come back um I if if the opportunity is there if it's off peak hours and somebody comes out of that driveway at at 10:45 in the morning well after the morning Peak well before the lunch Peak there's lower volumes of traffic than they can just make the left turn and get to where they're going other times to day if there's a lot of traffic if there's queuing if there's too much flow going across the site in the other direction can't make the left out I have to get out of here a different way so that's that's what that's what we're proposing that's why we want to keep that left so maybe we can finalize and move on a little bit then um so no left turn onto woodport Road and then maybe Mr all's suggestion for the other Road would be no left turn During certain hours like the rush hour or when you can who's who's going to enforce it well they could I mean well that that same intersection it will stop people uh so our purpose is not to have a time restriction or a a durational restriction on left hand terms off this far have but would you accept it as a condition of approval well we have to you know Ernie that that intersection has no right on red yes right the reason for that no right on red is to provide gaps in traffic for traffic FL flowing South okay so the people can get out a MAV and you know uh the businesses up in that area that's that's the whole reason for that no right on red you know the other thing the thing I did want to bring up is you know remember we were talking about traffic volumes traffic volume on Route 181 in the 70s was probably twice what it is right now before Route 15 was built because it was Route 15 I got old I got old pictures from the police department of traffic backed up past the bowling alley waiting to make a leftand turn at that intersection before The Jug Handel was built The Jug Handle was built to alleviate the problems in that intersection there so you know again we're you know traffic was I I I know it's heavier now than it was 20 years ago but 50 years ago it was a lot worse you know so understand that you know a lot of the what's what we have there that no right hand turn on red the The Jug Handle that was put in all that was to designed to make traffic better in that area and and I know sometime yeah I have trouble sometimes getting out of bohawk Avenue I live in the lake you know it's it's there there's times when you say you know what I'm not going to go to Mo I'm going to go up one on the Parkway and use the traffic light CU I know I can make a left to peak hours and I think we're talking about the same thing here and I I I you know from from my background I I completely agree with exactly what the engineer is saying I that one driveway is too close to the intersection and should have a left-and turd prohibition because just it's only you're only talking about three cars two cars queued and they can't turn you know so but the other but the other one I I think we leave the it up to the to the motorists to make their decision as whether it's safe or not so yeah can I ask it's actually no different than burk's liquor because it's right here can I ask um da would you mind giving us your thoughts on this sure um not disagreeing with anybody on their notes or anything but on my notes from the the December meeting uh I did have a note make both curb cuts no left turn I just H to have that in my notes that's number one number two uh I think the point uh that the board member made as far as um the way people normal people who come here often not just the one person that's for the first time they're going to find the most convenient way to do it and I when I read the traffic report my assumption was that a lot of the traffic coming to this site is going to be going on spart Avenue they're going to meet right into here they're going to get their Bagel their coffee they're going to leave on the woodport road exit and continue on down to 15 and go to work so it's going to be a large percentage I think of natural progression to the right if you will and alleviate a lot of the situation that we're talking about and if you run into problems making the left I think quite frankly unfortunately for the applicant they might use a different facility that's all the concern I do have though and I think it's something for the do to look at is what Mr Scott brought up if you're coming out of the sparta Avenue exit and you want to make that left we had a similar situation and I'll tell you where it was uh over in Hampton Township by the Lowe's if you're looking at 206 at the intersection of Cherry Lane and the Town Center Drive that goes into Lowe's there was a dentist office right on the corner and now it's an urgent care and when they went and got the access permit for that driveway the do as I recall it required on the opposite side of the 206 RightWay a no left turn sign to be installed the reason for that was when someone was trying to come out of the dentist driveway and make a left-hand turn there was a dedicated left hand hand turn lane in there to go to Cherry Lane just like I believe there's a dedicated left turn lane here to make the left onto Main Street and you couldn't see through all that traffic to see somebody coming on Sparta Avenue from The Jug Handle and by the time you pulled out basically if you had the Gap across two lanes of traffic all of a sudden boom here comes that car and you weren't prepared for it so that's the concern I have from a safety standpoint uh I would be surprised we did have another application in Newton right by the intersection of East Clinton Street and 206 uh right by the county seat restaurant and someone on the Northerly Corner wanted to talk about putting a driveway in in a very similar situation it vacant land there right now and it was a situation where the dot said we don't want you to come out there because you got to cross those two lanes of turning traffic one going great when making a left-hand turn but if they're queued up you can't see through all those cars and know that until the last minute if you will or last second that they might have a potential conflict with a vehicle going north on 206 so from that standpoint I'm concerned about somebody getting into a fender bender doing that I think most people will probably as I said before make the right in get their bagel and coffee make the right out into woodport road and I know a lot of facilities like a traffic signal because if you were going to make a left and go back around if I was driving it i' go down to The Jug Handle and go around might take a few more seconds or a minute more whatever but it's a safer maneuver so that's how I would handle it and that those were my concerns I appreciate that Dave I mean I know personally that I'm probably not the most attentive driver when I have my new coffee and my hot cream cheese on it Mark you're making me hungry stop it please all right um G to give everybody else a chance if there are any other issues in there but um one way to resolve it is the one way oh no no no no we didn't hear from everybody with any other issues um we just got as far as Mr Scott Mr Bleckley no I think Mr Scott covered all the issues I was concerned about okay dado I just want to begel luo um I I do have a a quick question um and and it's it's not about car traffic it's about foot traffic um this in this particular area you are in town center and and I see this generating a lot of foot traffic in the sense that you're G to have people who are who work for the post office or people who work for the hair salon kind of walking into this space um and I'm just trying to figure out where the safe walkways are here for pedestrians potentially coming in and grabbing their stuff and yeah the uh it's certainly a possibility there's a number of offices other fces in the the neighborhood um I I think probably the most likely connection would be to make a striped aisle that runs from the sidewalk on Sparta Avenue to connect with the striped aisle next to the handicap space and that lines up with the front door of the of the bagel shop um that there's not as obvious a connection coming from Mohawk Avenue but you're going to have to more or less walk the same path anyway so I think that connection would be sufficient and there there's no issues with grading because of the fact that we're requesting that waiver for the interior curb thank you um I have a have a question in the parking lot there's not going to be any curbing right up against the sidewalk correct right so and I know that there are a lot of people and will be even more walking along the sidewalk but shouldn't there be like a a bar or something in as as a head for each of the parking spaces I I think they did say they were going to have wheel stops yeah wheel stops is that what they're called wheel concrete wheel they're about what four feet or about six feet long so six feet long okay great I'm sorry where's that at the RightWay area there there's concrete wheel stops all along the uh the front of the parking spaces the 10 spaces that 13 spaces rather that face the building and the three that face Mohawk is that going to provide for like a twoot overhang yes so you have a 9 by8 plus a twoot overhang well the way it's shown now is it's 9 by 18 but the wheel stops are set two feet into the parking space so the 18 includes the I was trying to help you there we could modify it for the parking spaces along Mohawk Avenue we couldn't do it with the ones that face the building because then you'd be onto the sidewalk that runs around the perimeter of the building Mr day no I'm I'm questions are answer thank you Mr simmerman I'm all set yeah I'm good I said my I have one more then um I am still concerned about the one way because you mentioned in other places shopping centers Etc people are pulling out and going in every other direction which is true but they don't H are not coming in asking for for a variance or a waiver from 24t to 20 feet so you've cut out 4 feet um so I'm not sure that logic applies and um the the 20 feet has nothing to do with the two-way flow of traffic that well it has to do with backing out where I was concerned somebody's pulling this way somebody's pulling that way um yeah the the 24t requirement is just for the the backing in and out 20 ft is more than enough for two cars to go in opposite directions um you know again I don't see a particular safety issue with it the cars are going to to some limited extent utilize that existing public right away Along Sparta Avenue the same as they had been when it was a gas station and you know with the infrequent number of times that it happens and the low volume of pedestrians there when the when the bagel shop is busy I don't see a significant safety concern associated with that um you know if you if you had one-way traffic then the issues of recirculation throughout the surrounding roadway work or throughout the uh area to the south of the property would come more into play and that was one of the one of the objections that that we had uh or I had from a traffic perspective to to limiting the Turning movements at the driveways um you know so again I I don't see an issue with the with the circulation any more another question and um maybe it's for Mr all I'm not sure um so if we were to make a decision and we we F we fig find out six months later that we made the wrong decision there's all kinds of accidents here do we get another bite at the Apple what what what what course of action is there yeah you don't get another bite at the Apple you get you know once this is approved and it goes through D approvals if if it were approved with no left turns um or I'm sorry without a dou negative but yeah so um however it's approved it's approved the only way you get another bite so to speak at the Apple is if they came back to modify the site for something had a similar issue with Starbucks if you recall when we had all of the um the queuing out into the par out into the um Route 15 and then they pretty quickly resolved it if I may ask has has the applicant had any pre-application meeting with the do not yet yeah Al if there no more um questions from the de I'd open it to the public sorry may ask a question oh yes of course um you'd mentioned that chairwoman that you you'd like to see the oneway area which direction would it be oneway I would say coming in from Spa Avenue um where those employee cars are going to be with the signage so that would um it would be going and then go out toward woodport and make a right on woodport they want to go around The Jug Handle further left they could do that or just continue straight so if the oneway direction is from Sparta AB towards woodport what happens if someone pulls in from woodport and then there's no parking spaces in those six and they want to go into the parking the oneway arrow would be telling them they can't go that direction right right they would have to go in the other way okay does that make sense to you well they would have to if they were coming in from woodport and there's no parking they'd have to C turn out and get back off a woodport and then go around to get to the spart AV entrance so so it could create more of a ha if there's no parking in those six spaces off a woodport they would just go out they would have to K turn out because the one-way direction to sporta AV you're saying is is a one-way restriction from Sparta AV to woodport come in Sparta EV and you go out woodport yeah you can't go in woodport you can only goport has two has a two-way direction right there's a curb cut off a woodport we haven't even discussed coming in off a woodport if you could technically come in off a woodport well that's what I'm saying is I would my preference would be to go in Sparta Avenue and out woodport period oh so it' be a one-way restriction throughout even in the 24 l oh okay okay but he testified that that would make I appreciate again the board's concerns we can that's a condition we have cannot agree to it'll it's a pledl business we're putting hundreds of thousand hundreds and hundreds thousands of dollars into this business and if that'll be the duck I mean it just it's just going to kill us customers and the less convenient it is within reason for a customer to go there they're not going to go we're not talking big profit margins on bagels and and we're not selling diamond prices and I wasn't suggesting I was just trying to work through the exercise of figuring that out um try to PR on the board and Dot may not see it even if we did impose that do may may see that as a non starter either so um I just wanted to work through the exercise of understanding I wasn't quite sure what you'd meant before um there there are a number of um I guess when we go through if we go through conditions there are a number of things that have happened kind of on the Fly here and at the last hearing about plan changes whether it be signage or um restrictions on certain things or whatever um including uh the landscaping and such so I don't know how I know the signage we kind of spoke that that would go to the minor s plan committee as a separate application in the future uh for review but things like landscaping and stuff I just want if it does come to conditions it would be easier if the board spelled out that they um allowed um Mr Simmons or myself or both of us as part of resolution compliance to okay certain things like like the planting schedule and stuff like that um just because things have gone on on the on the Fly um so just keep that in mind um and then I I don't think I have anything else at this thank you anything else you know I I just throw something out I don't know if the board would want to entertain this or Mr if he'd want to go along with something like this or the applicant if the board if the board was inclined to conditionally approve this uh what I've seen in a couple other boards is they'd authorize the board attorney to prepare a favorable form of resolution and in the next month time which is when it would come back for adoption the applicant could get in contact with the do to find out for sure what restrictions they are or aren't going to put on this particular site that way you don't lose a lot of time and that way the board knows and the applicant knows just what's what the restrictions would be from the do standpoint just trying to help you move it along and find out so everybody knows by the time you actually vote on the application you know what the restrictions would be in all likelihood from the do conditions and we could do that so the if we get to that the motion would be just to prepare a resolution of approval for consideration by the board at the next meeting or next month's meeting um and then as Dave said in between you know the applicant can try and get some comment back from dot in In The Same Spirit I would just I don't know if Miss Dunbar would agree but like the Landscaping to me it's mostly impervious so we're talking out plantings in pots and areas around signage I mean I think they're reclaiming the imperious coverage right they're reclaiming it and hopefully it'll be green yeah soil I mean like I'm I I assume that they're going to want it to look good they have an area under the sign I don't want to delay them on the Landscaping oh they have to go through resolution compliance anyway okay so if this if this is looked favor upon and approved by the board um Dave usually handles it but um the res if whatever the resolution conditions are their updated plans will have to be checked before they can get a full approval and get their building permits so it's not like it's going to hold it up they're going to have to provide it anyway all right thanks just one more quick thing I'm thinking of now you mentioned that there were going to be plantings along that wall next to Burks but I had asked about that last time and was told the plantings could not be there and that it was going to be a wall there there's a area of grass shown at the South West corner of the property um next to next to that wall we could put some low plantings in that area I I don't to be honest I don't know how much benefit that would be because that would be pretty well screened no matter what direction you were approaching from so it may make the most sense to leave that as grass um the the the better location would probably be adjacent to the Mohawk Avenue driveway because you can see that as you come around the intersection if you're coming from the north uh if you're if you're stopped at the light heading north if you're at The Jug Handle so that's a lot more visible the other location next to uh the liquor store is pretty well screened by the the two buildings all right public hi Jo I need just fa yes you do sorry you raise your right hand please do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do and your name please Jennifer Derrick's tap into Sparta um sorry to keep beating the traffic drum but there is the issue of the left turn in from woodport Road there is significant mitigation Ernie was talking about this to the to the to stop a leftand turn at that traffic light and this in this driveway this curb cut going in is feet off of the corner uh the big sweeping turn the big sweeping curve to open up the sight lines was part of the mitigation as well as the restrictions on the right on red to as ER already talked about you have The Jug Handle so that you're not making lefts at that close to the corner you're just about making a left on the in the intersection um that's something that people are not expecting first of all and it's already as I said it's a long-standing mitigation to talk about it as it was a gas station I don't know that Ernie more than 20 years ago was it a gas station prior that I mean since subsequent to that it was a service station for a few years and then it's been closed for just about 20 years yeah it's been it was a uh gas station probably in the 60s 70s maybe into the 80s right then it became just a transmission repair facility with no no so there's no experience by any just about anybody driving that intersection that there were was ever traffic there it's been a paved lot for almost two decades so the consideration I app appreciate the the difficulty that it presents but safety we we see a disaster up at North Village because safety wasn't really as considered as it should be here we have the opportunity to look at a situation that is already being tightly mitigated to stop a left turn at that corner and you're just asking for the same situation to be allowed um by allowing a left turn into from woodport Road thank you um do you have any other Witnesses we do not Madam chair I just if I may briefly uh Mr Simmons's suggestion on the conditional resolution of compliance uh we're we're absolutely more than willing and we will reach out to the do I just know from experience I'm almost positive we're not going to get a response from the dot uh within within 30 days um so I just don't want the resolution and I don't know how Mr Simmons intended that resolution and the dot uh interaction to to work visa the resolution that this board hopefully will be approving but we we will represent that and we'll provide proof to the board that we will reach out regarding the Ingress and egress uh from the site to the do I just can't commit to the dot giving us a response within the 30 days it's want to be clear about that Mr do you have any no you know the odds of them getting an answer in 30 days is probably slim I probably agree with that you know so you could just do a you know we'll just do a regular resolution bring it to a vote put in you know have some discussion as to what you want that condition to be either you know no left turn uh onto woodport or both entrances um or timed for one I think the Board needs to have some discussion for that Ernie Ernie can I ask a question question so you're coming through The Jug Handle and we've got two lanes at that stop sign you got left only or straight or right okay but 90% of the traffic is going straight up Sparta Avenue West okay so someone comes through there and they say I want to get a bagel and I want to go left into this into the bagel store I know I got the name wrong but they want to go left into the bagel store that that really isn't is that two lanes there two Lan that is two lanes so so cars are going to be able to get around that and there won't be a backup into the intersection right what what if what if what if I want to make a left-hand turn but all the traffic is queued up in the left go at the light H and and and traffic starts to back up won't be you'll either have to stop there and wait for the traffic to go through the light but you're cruising down cruising down um woodport Road or Mohawk Avenue Road and you're you you go past the post office and you go through that light and and there's this traffic there it's just backed up and trying to make a left-and turn into the into the bagel store sure which direction you're coming from okay I'm sorry I'm pulling into the post office and walking across the crosswalk yeah I mean I okay Mark I see I I understand what you're saying when you're coming out of the J and oh there's no heading towards uh um make a left if you're going to make a left you're going to have to cross two lanes of trap which could be stopped sitting there stopped sitting there stopped so now you're back if that's the case you're going to have to stop with your blinker on and and wait to to make a turn um or as you said pull into the post office parking lot and walk across the street you know I mean those are decisions you to make again it depends on the traffic at the time of day there are times when the traffic is very heavy there there's times when the traffic is late people got to make their own decisions you know it's that's the virtue of I keep trying to you know the center of town traffic you know that that that's all we're trying to you know uh you know uh make the best case scenario out of there and I and I and I do believe that proposal by the engineer is is is a valid one of the that entrance exit on woodport road should should not allow a left hand turn it's it's just too short towards the intersection that has to be a right turn only and I I 100% agree with that the other one I I I think could be left to the decision of the motters okay would anyone like to make a motion so there can I just review some of the um there were a handful of conditions that board talked about want to make sure we're on the same page so the monument sign assuming there's a motion of approval condition the conditions to consider are that the monument sign um would be presented as a minor site plan to the minor s site plan committee another time and we talked about the Walt signs also doing that the same way right okay so initially he won't have a sign if he opens before he gets back here he's not going to have a sign time I just wanted to point that out right by the time they get it ready they could apply to the minor site plan yeah minor site plan here is pretty like quick right before so the wall signs and the monument sign same condition okay the light fixtures um the applicant would use the same fixtures as are on Sparta Avenue in accordance with the spec that he would get from the township engineer right uh with respect to parking the three parking spaces um will be designated for employee parking only and appropriate signage will be shown on the plan the uh landscape plantings will be consistent with the township standards and to the satisfaction of the township engineer and Township planner you're also going to add Landscaping at the base of the future Monument sign and this is where I was a little unclear and at the southernly property line at that entrance exit right okay but not the Westerly property wall I mean we we're I think we're willing to do that we just don't know how much utility that's going to underst bring to right I just want to bring that up to the board if you wanted on the western property line because you have two building the building's pretty close to the line there right that's the side door that's that issue yeah um okay there'd be a condition that be there would be no left turn on to uh woodport road which is 181 right is it Mohawk Avenue there or woodport roadport Road Road woodport Road 181 UMES it does so okay so no left turn on to woodport Road at any time of day right consistent right and the other would be unregulated correct yes right okay then that would be all the conditions I had I'd like to make a motion oh can I sorry I think there are a couple more that's what I was gonna add yeah I'm not sure I I'm sure I didn't capture the ones from when I wasn't here you mind chair chairwoman um so some things that I uh captured from the first meeting and Dave can add to these two that there's a condenser that's proposed adjacent to the addition that should is agreed upon to be screened um and so that I think that needs to be shown on the plan um the the refuse enclosure um was testified that those would be roll out bins not a dumpster so those should be shown as the on the detail of the plans to be revised um with the trash we also said that it has to be kept in a clean and tidy manner yes we did so that should be add as a condition um the I had another one Rich captured the planting schedule to be revised and then there was one other thing and I'm not sure I'll have the applicant confirm I had asked the plan show a proposed right of-way line and I had asked what that was based off of and I think they said their engineer is working on a title search for the NJ do dedication I think that should be provided if they can find the title to for the deed for that it may it will verify the line so rich is there a question as to where the property line is I don't think no I don't think there is it's the um so so the conversation from December those of you who um weren't here the the calculations that were that were performed by Adon uh were as depicted not including the RightWay line so um but there there was as part of that conversation a question about whether it was ever formally dedicated so that's what adant is it's not it's not a question of where the property boundary line is it's just a question of whether there actually is a a dedication a dedicated so I'll on that okay so there's no dedication with this application it's just if it has happened already correct just a verification basically of where their property line is up to that's all I was looking for there was one other thing you brought up last time and that was about the one EV ready space and you said there was some new regulation and going to look into that whether that that was required um they did not they didn't have one but then you went back and forth as to whether this new regulation they have under 25 spaces so they are not required to have an EV space okay any others native species that would be in the yeah we agree to that the environmental commission no issu I'm just wondering if you want to include in the resolution that we did ask the question as far as the site remediation goes I believe the answer was the former owner is responsible for the site remediation that's correct J the Jan dit uh Corporation and we did provide to the board um corespond from Earth Sol just so that's clear I had nothing else Dave do you have anything that no that's it well I'm I'm just assuming that Mr Aller is going to reference our reports yeah standard well I don't know what your standard conditions are that's why I bring it up but they will most definitely um be subject to all agency reports that we have you and there's no um from the applicant's perspective there wasn't anything raised in any of those reports that weren't agreeable okay and I bring that up because do approval for example is one of the conditions that I have in there yes just so it gets captured and so I guess one other thing not a condition is the applicant agreed there initially were five variances to the signage they've agreed basically as part of going to the minor site plan subcommittee that they will be conforming signs so that shouldn't be an issue there is only one variance which they we got testimony from their Planner on which is about the change in impervious it was over on impervious coverage they reduced a little bit but it's still over the coverage allowances and then there were five design waivers largely related to the parking and um driveway configuration all right and we heard the testimony on the reduction on impervious coverage which was C2 uh variant only there was no C1 reasons right that was all okay I I was going to make a motion if we're ready okay go ahead um I would make a motion to conditionally approve um with a right only on woodport and then uh with everything else he at your own risk entering exiting on dis Sparta Avenue well I think that that's in the were the motion be subject to all the conditions that we just listed right as listed right subject to those conditions a further condition to make a motion to approve um that there would be I just CU I don't see it happening that it would be uh right woodport only and then you know that I think there's enough space from the intersection depending on how the wind blows in the time of day and well if we say no left turn doesn't that mean right only yeah it would be no left turn yeah yeah okay but I'm going north on woodport road towards town hall and I want to make a left into the Bagel Station the bagel store you can go you okay you can't it's just 20 ft later 20t later I'm not it's illegal for me to make a left but 20 ft now right just 20 feet away from that I can make a left into a a a big reason for the reason Mark the reason for that no leftand turn at that intersection was for all the traffic that was coming down what was Route 15 and and and all trying to make a left there you know and they put the jug handle in that's the reason for it when The Jug Handle was put in it has it has to do with the volume of traffic not not traffic turning into businesses or anything like that that no leftand turn is there to make people use The Jug Handle so is it an exit only on the Wood Court volume measure volume volume not isue want ex exit right hand turn yeah all right do that sound good I think we have a motion pending right well so the motion so or Revis it that it's a exit only right only onto woodport I think you need to check with the app the app well that's that was my motion but okay made a motion so it's the conditions that we went through Mr Right sorry all right so can would you read the motion please then um so the motion would be to approve the application for um site plan approval variance for impervious coverage which is actually being reduced by um by the applicant right although it's still a variance condition because it exceeds what's otherwise permitted and would be subject to the conditions that the monument sign and the wall signs be presented as minor sight plan uh to the minor site plan committee so in other words they are no longer part of this application the light fixtures would be the same fixtures as used on Sparta Avenue in accordance with the specification received from the township engineer um with respect to parking three pce three parking spaces will be designated for employees those will be shown on the plan and designated on site by signage um landscape plantings will be consistent with the township standards and to the satisfaction of the township engineer and professional planner and by that Township standards I mean um Native species right uh um when they come back for minor site plan for the monument sign there will be Landscaping added to the base of the monument sign there'll be no left turn onto woodport Road U from the site um the condenser will be screened uh in accordance with or or to the satisfaction of the township professional planner and engineer um the rollout bins at the trash container uh I'm sorry there will be the use of roll out bins in the trash container and those will be kept in a clean manner um you'll verify where the property line is is that what what line of we we talking about is that a Northerly line southernly line just so I know when I look at the plan that was a norly the Westerly line Westerly line okay the line along Sparta Avenue okay gotcha um and that was it actually glad we going over that because there are a couple more there setbacks they need the variance for the setbacks yeah I stb a pre-existing it's pre-existing it's not necessarily a variance because the buildings there and they you know I would just noted in the resolution that it's a pre-existing nonconformity and the design waivers from the 24ot wide aisle to the 20 proposed 9 by 20 parking space to the 9 by8 one loading zone to zero sidewalk four feet um it's going to be adjacent instead and no curbing on the Avenues those were the design W mentioned by U Mr Flynn that everything everything I had all right and I make a motion that we uh accept approve uh with the conditions as read I'll second that okay roll call please coun me Mark Scott D do is going to review this they will yes Janette Burke yes Ronde yes Robert Bleckley yes Brian Zimmerman yes celest Luciano yes Ernie Raga yes Vice chairman Rob oo AO yes poman Joan Fern yes thank you full on the do now we really appreciate it we thank you for that's a tough site thank you for everything you've done appreciate the board's involvement engagement and and and you know good questions honestly put us in the ringer have concern for all the public safety look forward to bringing you a good product thank you we look forward to the bagel thank you good luck want these were well that one was not those no that's not marked that's just what we have in our packet I assume the board holds on to the exhibits at least for the appeal period good good just to focus on perect here just shoot me an email so I have your email and I'll send you the resolution never okay um thank you I want to try to move through this quickly since it's after 10 o'clock uh is there any other board business to be discussed no thank you okay um updates Town Council Mr Scott well as as you all know we we addressed we we adjusted all the um the sorry ordinance 20 25-06 which was uh Sparta Amendment pced Zone ordinance section 62 um version 2-c and we all we all looked at that that was a uh important decision that we made um we passed the PDR Zone PD pdrm 2 Zone that we discussed tonight um and we also submitted our uh our our uh DCA number our fourth round number to the state on time last week um thanks to uh um all the good work of Katherine and and Steve Warner and they've uh the number that the GCA had proposed was 427 and we proposed back to the GCA 311 and as I understand it as long as we continue to comply with the deadlines that are set forth in the in the fourth round memorandum that we will get to July I think it is or June 30th is our nextline okay and and and and if we do that then this would be our number okay there's a a one- Monon period that commenced on February 1st and ends on February 28th in which any party can object to the township number um whether or not we chose the DCA number or we picked another number like we did um and so we we'll be advised of if there are challenges to that number and then there is a one month or six- week period in which those challenges are then under resolve from the affordable housing dispute resolution program or the program um so we'll we'll keep you AB breast if anything comes up and that's that's that's it for thank you thank environmental commission yeah um I was not present at the meeting I did uh look at the um at the at the zoom uh the Youtube um but the minutes are still being uh massaged so I have nothing to report I I can just add there was a small celebration the open space and Recreation plan was finally passed despite you guys stripping the Rossy um and uh we went over uh Green Team resolution um and talked a little bit about Earth day as well as further discussions on the uh ordinances and resolutions that we were planning for 2025 so the uh native plants is still in process trees still in process Dark Skies Etc so and we have the lead uh public event coming up in March oh yeah so the speaker series speaker series yeah that's on the website if you guys want to take a look okay thank you um the minor site plan subcommittee we met tonight and um we approved the January minutes so they will be included in the packet when I don't know will they go out when the board's January minutes go out which might be a little while or can we do it sooner that would be a question you can email my supervisor I we'll go out as soon as possible um and I don't think we have anything under resolutions and then the next thing is minutes and that's um Dory Fox it was clear to return part time this week I believe it was no next week in two in two weeks in two weeks okay nobody tells me anything but she's cleared I guess in two weeks and then her first assignment part-time right she come back part-time in two weeks um she'll be back in the office uh part-time for a few weeks in two weeks which I explained to you yesterday when we met and um at that point I guess her priority is to start working on the minutes she's currently working on the minutes uh from home at the moment that's what I meant she was that's what I was thinking she was cleared to start working part time from home from home so she's working on the minutes right now correct okay and then she'll be back in the office in two weeks part time part time okay so we should hope to have some minutes maybe by the next meeting all right Madam chair one quick question any news on the master plan subcommittee yeah we are getting to that Katherine you know was very very busy with um the affordable housing and we actually I wanted to talk to her about dates we said we were going to talk after this meeting to try to figure out some dates that we can begin to do that so that's next on the agenda thanks okay um open to the [Laughter] public all right uh motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to J I'll second all in favor