It should be. You have to push go live. >> Can't just put start screen. >> I'll start. I'll start and then over. Yeah, we're good. All right. >> Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. >> Yeah. introduce yourself.
>> All right. Thank you all for coming to the uh trails committee meeting here at uh Sparta Township in the chambers at 700 p.m. It's 7:04. We're officially starting. Um and uh first time we're going to be live streamed as well. And
uh there was notice provided also to um the public through Tap into Sparta and our Sparta website. So um I just want to introduce myself as Lena Tenieri. um Sparta Township uh trails committee chairperson and um we're going to go
into our agenda. We have uh we had limited copies so I apologize maybe we can hand share some of those as well but uh I'll ask our secretary Ann to maybe go through our just uh if do you have the uh >> roll call. Yes. Here.
Okay. Neil Clark >> here. >> Doug Dystra here. >> Ann Lukak here. Landon Tanury >> here. >> Christy White House. >> Brad Carlson >> here.
>> Christine Dunar >> here. >> Connor Soal, >> Jeff Wolf >> here, >> and Ann Sears. >> Great. Great. Thank you. We have four and then we're gonna kind of get into
what everybody's here for. So, um, you maybe Here, I'll I'll I'll kick us off. I want to thank everyone uh for coming. Um I I first I want to thank our township staff who made this possible. Normally, we're meeting in the conference room because as folks know,
this is just simply an advisory committee. Like, we don't have any governing authority here. So, we simply advise the council on uh issues related to trails. So, we don't have any decision-making authority here. So, that's why we're normally in the
conference room. Um, so it's our first fora into the courtroom. So, but we wanted to do that to accommodate, but that wasn't possible without the great staff that we have, you know, figuring, you know, teaching my um me how to work the streaming machine, which I didn't
know how to do until tonight. So, but anyway, uh, I'm very thankful for them. I'm glad people are out here. Um, I think before we begin, um, I first want to just be apologize. I think there was confusion over uh what we're doing here.
Um and that confusion um the blame should be directed at me and not at anyone in this trails staff. We have fabulous people on our trails committee uh committed people. And I get where there was confusion, right? That people um you know, they look out their back
door and one minute it looks like the same backyard they already had. They come home, they see a stake in the ground, they hear about conveyance, and they like, "Oh my gosh, what's going on?" I get it. I get it. And I think that's a a teaching moment for me. And and you know, we'll we'll we will
endeavor to do um a better job with, you know, communicating. But I do want to make clear, no land has been conveyed to Sparta Township and Sparta Township has not conveyed any land to anyone. So I'll repeat that. No land has been conveyed
by Sparta Township and no um land has been conveyed to Sparta. Um and so that just to clear uh that up and I and I also understand the kind of confusion that folks may have when they hear the state and that gives people pause. We
all people who've lived here had to live through Sparta Mountain issue and so when they hear the state that sometimes the state may not be the greatest steward of of of open space. Um but I think you know hopefully what you'll get from tonight is that the New Jersey Land
Trust is going to be a good steward um if we go down that process um that we're just really kind of um beginning because again what is the New Jersey Land Trust mission? What is their mission? Their mission is to preserve land in its natural state for enjoyment by the
public and to protect natural diversity through acquisition of open space. Now, Doug is here and he'll explain more um about the land that we're proposing uh to convey to the New Jersey Land Trust and that whole process. Um and it'll
also, you know, explain the middle school to high school trail concept overall and but really focusing on what we're, you know, the particular phase that we're under um right now. Um but you know, I think I'm really excited about this endeavor that we're doing.
And why is that? Well, I think trails is something that comes up all the time when we survey the people of Sparta. What do you want? We want open space. We want trails. And so, you know, that is the genesis of this committee. Um, I think we we all just
lived through the Sussex County uh had a a question on the ballot this year about preserving open space by a 4 to one margin that won. So, the way I look at this is we're trying to fulfill what we see as a mandate. Um, and I think that's
what kind of drives me kind of impatiently to be honest because I see it and I want to get it done and probably my own impatience sometimes may, you know, get in the way of some of the, you know, nitty-gritty details and bringing the public along, but I really
want the public along with this. I really do. And I think after tonight, I think we can, you know, put people's concerns to bed and get behind something that we think is going to be fantastic for the community. I'm really happy about it. I'm very lucky to have the people that we have on here and it's
this guy over here who helped me with the idea when he was just a DECA student uh doing DECA at Sparta High School who had mapped every single abandoned trail line in the entire county and was like, Neil, we have 30 some miles of abandoned trail in here and we have six miles of
it in Sparta. We need we should do something about that. And I thought it was such a brilliant idea and he's done a ton of work. You know, we have um Christine Dunar, who's been an environmental teacher for decades, also done a ton of work uh on open space and
protecting our natural resource. We have Annne, you've been with the rec committee for a long time. Um we have Brad who's a scout leader um who has, you know, kids in the middle school and we have Jeff Wolf who's been involved in trails and and and I'm we're and of
course Doug and his professional background. So Sparta is really lucky to have the talent that we have on this committee. Um it's someone has who has to put together committees all the time. We are very fortunate in Sparta that we have very smart engaged people and I'm
really lucky to have them. So um I look forward to it. But what I'll I think the best thing to do is to kick it off to Doug and you know you can help walk people through kind of what this trail is, what the kind of phase we're going through right now and you know and then we'll take after he's done the
presentation or whatever we will give the public an opportunity to ask questions. So >> go for it. >> Good evening everyone. Thank you for coming out. Um can can everybody see okay or would you like to
I guess I could >> go back and forth. >> Okay. So, I'm going to explain basically the land swap which seems to be the source of all this confusion. What Sparta Township wants to do is acquire a portion of Tax Lot 10 which belongs to
the New Jersey Natural Lands Trust. Okay, that's located off of uh Route 517 at the corner of West Mountain Road. Okay, West Mountain Road 517. The portion of this lot that we'd like to acquire, you really can't see. It
didn't print very well, but there's a line in here that goes along the wetland buffer 150 ft off this wetland line. Okay. So, we will acquire all upland, not wetland. The natural land trusts in order to
convey land need to do it via compensation. In other words, we're giving them 5 what do I have here? 5 6 acres. Um, in exchange, we have to
give them 28 the 5 to1 ratio. Okay. So, we're acquiring 5 acre 5.2 acres of upland in exchange for So, everyone's familiar with where we are. I'm switching the page.
There'll be three compensation areas. Okay. The first complain Y ratio we have to give X number of acres over
that's the process to acquire land from the state that's in conservation we're doing the same thing with the landfill as you know >> 17 to1 >> 17 to one >> 5.2 two. So it equals 28
number. Yeah, I tried. I started with one to one. Didn't work. So 5 to one is their minimum. Okay, that's the best they'll do. All right. So
we know what we're we know what we're acquiring the comp. Now I'll go through the compensation part. That's I I I I don't have enough hands to do all that. All right. >> Then I can pry the mic.
>> This is not gonna All right. All right. So, on to the compensation parcels. Let me get you located again. Here's a Sparta High School football field. Here's a Sparta High School track. There's a piece of 517 right there. The intersection would be
somewhere near where my hand is. It's a piece of open space on the northwesterly side of the Walkeel River. It's I'm going to outline it for you. There it is. And that area is 4.93
acres. Okay, everyone clear? Um just highlighting this with some Not perfect but those are bogs bog symbols. This is a complete wetland muck boots required. Okay. On to the
next part. So I call I call that um compensation parcel. Okay. Station parcel B. This is located This is the uh Sparta Township Agnesburg line. This is Conklin Lumber right here.
Conkland lumber. Blue Ridge Lumber. Blue Ridge Lumber. Yes, I did. Okay. So, Blue Ridge Lumber, the big wetland, the Walkill River, um open space belonging to Sparta that they're giving to the Natural Land Trust under a different the >> that's the landfill compensation area.
And and they requested this piece. It's off of Cedar. This is Cedar Drive. Old theater drive. Okay. And >> Milstone. >> Milstone. All right. All right. I'm glad we have people here to help. Um,
this parcel is 8.93 acres. It too is a this is a wooded wetland, by the way. It's marshy, but you can you can you can walk through here and you can get back to here and somewhere in this area gets You've been back there? Yeah. It's
limited, but it's still technically a wetland, nondevelopable land. No question. Okay, on to the last parcel. This is um compensation parcel C, 14 577 acres. This is Green Green
Greenfield Hill Drive off of West Mountain Road. Everyone got that? Okay. um it it was their open space subdivision open space dedication to Sparta Township, but in this instance, they're only taking
and I did that I set that area to equal exactly 14.577 acres. So the total would be 28 an exact 5 to1 exchange. Okay. So that explains the um process of
acquiring the land for the first trail this committee decided to go after which is that starts at station park. We'll buy traverse across this lot basically holding grade like we're going
to not it's not going to go up and down. Keep it as level as possible and terminate right there. And then use the bike lanes out there to connect to the parking lot. parking lot back through station park. We have a loop system. >> That's much bigger fish to fry. But
that's next >> what we're going to do the questions till later because otherwise it it the organization of the medium will fall apart. So, uh, if people can just hold their questions, we will give opportunity. And I think Doug, it may it may be helpful to explain like where
this fits in into the overall, you know, if we get if we can pull this off and and do the other phases of the trail. How how does that part link up with the middle school to high school trail that we want to do? Why why is this portion necessary? Okay, let me um
>> swap it first. Are you talking about >> the land swap is the land swap is needed to do this stretch of trail. Without the land swap, this is gone. This is gone. Okay. Um as a committee, we decided this was
something to go after. I went down and negotiated the deal with the natural lands trust through these efforts, some mapping and some meetings with them and came up with a concept that they voted on and agreed to. That's why I came to the town council to get their nod on a
concept at which time we can start working toward a contract. Um, I think we got some time before we get to that contract, probably at least a year. um that backs up to another piece of land
that we've already in the process of >> they have a bigger chunk of land right there. I can show you on >> now what they had now >> do something.
>> Yeah, let me get to that. >> Okay. U New Jersey DP has wildlife management areas, state parks, natural land trust is one of those say that again agency.
>> So they are Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. State of New Jersey. It's not simply the state of >> it's not the same group that has correct
>> right. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not >> and they got a different mission state. So the New Jersey Natural Land Trust was created in 1968 by the New Jersey legislature as an independent agency in but not of the division of parks and forestry in the New Jersey department of
environmental protection. So its mission is to preserve land in its natural state for the enjoyment by the public and to protect natural diversity through the acquisition of open space. The trust acquires open space primarily by donations of land and public and easements. In creating the trust, the
legislator's goal was to establish an agency with the protective power of the state that would have the support of the private se the private sector open space preservation and conservation organizations. The trust autonomy is a key factor in garnering the confidence of individuals interest in preserving
their land and that of the cons conservation community. That's the intention of at least the organization just for some background. It's one of the many agencies that our state has created. So it's inherently complicated for for everybody just because they're always doing so many things.
>> Something to that. >> Hi there. This is Chris Dumbar. Um, I had an extensive conversation with the gentleman from New Jersey Natural Lands Trust. He's a wonderful person. He says that they are a part of um NJP,
but they are they are not of them. They are in them, you know. And um I said, "Well, what are you going to be doing with this this land?" and he says, "Well, I'm primarily concerned with um biodiversity
and endangered species and um turtles." Uh he wouldn't tell me what type because some people go into areas if it's a rare turtle and they collect so and they
discourage trails, I will say. Um, and I said, 'Well, are you going to be logging? And he said, 'Well, there's very little to log, but we don't do that at all. The the most we will be doing. If we see this wetland,
um, the process of succession happens and the wetland turns into a forest through time. We want to be able to go in there sometimes and allow more sunlight to come in because the turtles bask in the sun.
So that was his um you know explanation of of what he is doing and he uh is passionate. Uh I don't know whether he's a one-man show. Uh they probably only staffed by a couple of people there. And I do have a copy of the original um
bill, the state bill that um created the New Jersey Natural Lands Trust if anyone would care to read that. Thank you. >> Okay. What I'd like to add is um everyone's concerned about what the state might do, their stewardship, how
they're going to handle the property. I brought the the existing deeds into Sparta Township. One from Phil Deacon to the township of Sparta. I'll pass it around. There it is. There's no protections in there. Owns it. They can do what they want with
it. It's a governing body. You have no control. Here's uh another one from Deacon Holmes at Sparta Township. Same thing. No restrictions. >> Oh, that would be that would be anybody's, >> right? And then Greenfield Hill, same
thing. It's just an very plain cooker cutting cookery cutter open space dedication. >> Uh they're all residential zone. Yeah, it's RR, I'm pretty sure. But here here's the point. We have an
opportunity when you turn this land over to the state to dictate the restrictions that go into that deed. Things like treat people are concerned about clear cutting. We can put that in there. They might push back. And the same thing, they're going to try to put like limitations on what we can do with our
trail. So, we're going to make sure that kind of language gets in there. They're going to push from their side to have more. You know, it'll be a back and forth, but we can certainly certainly restrict it from clear cutting. >> Yeah, Doug, it may be helpful at this
point to to explain how that process works. I think there was confusion um about that the land had been it was a done deal. There was none of you know the contract was signed. I think that was an impression that I think people had. Um can you explain a little bit how
that process works that you know we essentially are negotiating a contract with and what the resolution that we attempted to do two weeks ago was simply to allow us to begin the negotiation process. It did not set the terms of what those would be. Those would all get
hammered out in that. And I think that you know we would make clear knowing what the the felt needs of the community are. And before we could sign the contract, everyone in the public would know what was in it cuz we'd have to vote on it as members of the town
council. We'd have to publish it and the agenda and people could see the terms and conditions of it. Um but that what was we were trying to do two weeks ago was simply to start that not to there was no ter there was no contract actually done or nothing to agree to
yet. >> Yeah. So the natural land trust basically when I went to that meeting agreed to a concept. That concept was brought to the town council. If we get the town council's blessing then I'll pursue it further and start putting
accurate surveys together. Um we'll draft up some contracts. We'll get them back and forth and we'll start having a meeting of the minds so we can actually go to closing at some point. But I'm not going to go any further with this unless the council's on board.
put it in. Do we do we even have a conservation zone? >> That's a very good point for the the master plan folks. So, yeah, I mean that's something that I think is the the planning board is going to be looking at all the zones and and figuring out not only the uses that are allowed in the zone, but even probably some of what you
know what zoning would be there. But >> yeah. >> Mhm. >> But regardless of the zoning, it still has to meet the D wetland regulations, which in this case, the buffers would expand into the development at this
point. >> Yeah. >> And and just to be clear, because there was some also some confusion about the survey. Like you haven't done a survey yet, right? I happen to have surveyed so much land out there over the years that by compiling my existing work, I was
able to get a pretty good handle on where these boundaries are, but they're not final by any measure. >> No, we we did the subdivision of Cedarbrook. We did the subdivision of Greenfield. We did open space acquisition over here. We did an open
space acquisition. Pope John used to own a huge tract over here. We did that one. There was another project called the GAD project. Another like 70 or 80 acre parcel. Boom. I got some putting this last piece of the puzzle together was not magic. I combined a bunch of
existing surveys to come up with some pretty good concepts. Accurate >> concept. Con not No, I'm not. They they say draft. >> Yes. >> When you say concept or draft, I don't expect to see stakes in the ground in on
or near our property. So on October 10th, your team was there and left states in a location that I think is on my property. >> Yeah, they marked which which lot were you? >> So I am uh one Millstone. It's the corner of Milstone. Correct.
>> We found we found that corner. >> We found that corner. >> So I saw the flag in the back. I'm not concerned about the inside corner, but along Old Cedar, there seems to be two flags that are not. One is a post that says corner of lot and the next is a flag that that is equal or adjacent to
our permanent marker that was installed by our servant. So it's about a 30 foot difference between those two flags between what is marked corner of lot and where the next flag is at what we think is the end of the property. I have been trying unsuccessfully since the council
meeting to find out the coordinates of your surveyor's information so that I my surveyor review it and we can put aside any boundary issue every call.
>> I called there twice. Judy told me that I should go to planning. They told me I didn't pay for the survey so I can't go to the town. Michelle said that website I was told to wait for a response from
I didn't get one opra request was in a timely manner by Emily but when I called back somewhere I can get this. I can't get it from it >> and I was told to wait for response from the town attorney that it was still
within the timeline of I don't know what the timeline is. I've never done it. >> Yeah. I think I you have to be very specific. I hear I think one I think two things we should probably ask. One is you know would when we think of surveys you have a different understanding of what a a survey that would go before the
New Jersey land trust. Have you prepared that type of survey that you feel okay you haven't done that? >> No, I haven't evaluated the data they collected that day yet. Yeah. Because I don't want to um go through the effort until the I expected the council to be voting. >> Okay. >> So, we wouldn't I was getting a jump on
the work. Um >> but now once I they didn't vote, I'm like >> that goes on the back burner. >> You're volunteering your time and you're not going to put forward the effort to do this until they say like we have agreement. >> But I promise you tomorrow I'll have a look at your lot. I'll look at what they
found out there and I'll email it to you and then >> and I apologize for the screening we have at our office. That's crazy. >> So there was >> That's crazy. Like >> couldn't get through to me. >> No to you. I can't get through to you.
There is like a stockade of people that you know I said to you at the council meeting I asked simply to table it until we had more information. I also spoke to the gentleman at the land trust. He is a wealth of information and a steward of the trust and I love to see him come in
and speak at the environmental commission. He was unbelievable. He had so much information to give. Um but there have just been so many things that have changed since the council meeting or things that were contradictory that lead the public to be very apprehensive
to to just get on board. And I said to you that night, it could be something I could totally get behind and be on board and be supportive of, but not until we have more information. And something as simple as a boundary issue should just be like that should been like,
>> well, yeah. I mean, I'm going to I'm going to speak now like a lawyer and it's going to annoy the hell out of you. I apologize. Here's the thing. Yeah. is the survey. Because one, I think Doug, am I right that when we get to the survey process,
we want to make triple sure that what we are conveying to the New Jersey land trust does not include anyone's property, right? We have to make Absolutely. >> Yeah. And so, and would someone like Miss Rogoff have the ability to look at
our survey when the actual survey is done, look at it, compare it to what she has, and be like, "Hey, wait a minute. This isn't matching up." Is would she be able to have that opportunity to do that? >> Yeah. And you're going to have the opport you're going to have the confidence tomorrow. >> There'll be no there'll be no gray.
There'll be no gray area. >> The original survey that was submitted was done by company. So, I'm like I can't imagine that one of them is right. They were both done by >> Yeah. I think it's just a mislabeled stake. I guess >> could very well be and it seems like that was something so easy to take care of. So I appreciate
>> Yeah. And I think too like the so what your folks did when they came out and uh and Miss Rogoff saw them on her property. That information has that been turned into an actual what you would call a survey? Has that happened yet?
>> No, we collected the data. We collected the data, then I held off because there was no vote, okay, that night. And so I'm not going to put the effort forth in vain. If it never gets voted forward, I'm not going to waste my time. >> Okay. >> Okay. Yeah. And I think that which is
completely understandable. I get it. You don't want us giving away land that may not even be and we don't want to give away land that doesn't belong to us either. That's going to be a headache for us. And so, please know that, you know, that we will make sure we'll know what the mets and bounds of the property
and we'll give the public an opportunity to look how it's described. We're just we don't have that that actual data based on, you know, he just did it two weeks ago or whatever and hasn't obviously pushed through because that's a whole another that's going to be part of the negotiation process with with the
New Jersey land trust if you if we can get there. Um but yeah, just be, you know, I we will make sure that the the affected property owners, those who are adjacent to the conveyed land can see how we're describing the conveyed land and make sure and then maybe compare it
with your own what you think is your property line and and then you will tell us. You like, hey, I think you're off by 10 feet or you know, however much it is, 30 feet, whatever it is you think. Yeah, whatever it is. We want to get it right. We really do. We don't we don't have any
interest in >> They'll post it eventually. They'll post it once they take title to it. >> The New Jersey Natural Land Trust. A little probably >> it'll be like a a triangle shape or a square
posting like you would typically post property with. They call blaze the line. It's not going to say no trespass. it'll sit. It's open to the public and and that's on kind of hallmarks back
to what this committee was trying to address just in general with um focusing on our township and trying to maximize what we we have here. And especially I have this map here of um other trails that the county has advertised exist in Sparta Township. And I saw some um
people um at say that we do have um some state trails and other trails in the township like the Ogden Mine Trail and um the Pollaskin Valley Trail, but the Pollican Valley Trail terminates in Andover. It does not terminate in Sparta. The Ogden Mine Railroad terminates in Jefferson. It does not
officially start or end in Sparta Township. So there's some major gaps that US taxpayers are under the assumption that you actually have the ability to use. And during COVID, I was told, "Hey, I can go use this state park just down the road from my home." And when I went there, just like um um
manager Zep when he was at the DPW, so many hikers and bikers went there under the assumption that this was your state trail and it was never complete. And that got this project and all of this on my heart because I don't I don't want to see it left any longer. And I wanted to
improve my community and leave it better for the next generation when it comes. So, I am hopeful that this can just be the start of many projects that this county and township can really benefit from and even just educating people in our municipality about the great open
spaces that already exist. One of our major goals is actually just mapping the trails in our municipality and advertising that. Um, going forward, this comm this committee is going to have much better communication with everything that's going on. We're going to have a website clear with all the
data available. Um, we want to be transparent and not leave every anybody confused or felt like that they are being um overlooked. Your concerns are valid and heard and we are all here together as a community. This is a board made up of um everybody in the township
and we are always looking for new members as well and we are wanting to build together and and get everybody involved and frankly I've been involved in the the zoning board and environmental commission and this is one of the most packed meetings I've been at um attendance-wise and it's sad because we have those bi-weekly meetings and I
would love to have more people attend but thank you all for coming truly it shows that you do actually have a real care in this municipality and want to see this township grow. I do see you have a question sir. Yes, he was asking about the cross benefit. >> They want to know why we we decided to
start I mean Yeah. Start with the middle school to high school trail and not >> Yeah. No, I mean, no, I I think part of it was that it was, you know, something that I've, you know, Brad can probably speak to this as a middle school parent. I can speak to it. A lot of people have said,
why can't we have access between the middle school and the high school, you know, and when you do a project like this, you have to start with somewhere, you know, even though, you know, the trail itself, the idea was from the middle school to the high school, this is just one particular phase. And why
did we pick that phase that we're talking about tonight? Why did we decide to do that one first? I think that may help people >> instead of, you know, the other parts. >> Basically, it required the most work and it it starts and dies with the the lands conservy, not the land conservancy,
natural lands trust. Um, we don't get their permission for the land. It's it's over. So, what's the point in planning other segments if we can't even get the thing off the ground? there. >> Oh, I got a lot of them.
>> We we have the >> we have the open >> when I can if I have a deliverable something I can present and say this is feasible in cost analysis. understand why we chose >> Doug. I think you can mention how we are
actively looking at two other projects as well, but just because of the structure of how those projects worked and with the county and other agencies, it's it's those actually even though seemingly seem like lowhanging fruit were actually a lot difficult. the
point. Yeah. No, it's a fair point. I think Yeah. I mean, I I think with this one, we knew if we could get the the land trust portion of it, um, you know, there's still some, you know, logistical things that have to, but with these other trails, you know, there's the county owns some of it. The, uh, there's
a private property owner on it. So, that those look more logistically difficult. And so, we, you know, we're trying to do those almost simultaneously, but it's very hard. But this is the reason why we chose this one first was sort of was the consensus of the of this committee to to
that one this one seemed the most feasible to start with plus the felt need of the people saying we would really want a middle school to high school trail. I think that was, you know, whereas there are some trails in Spar, this would simply, if we do what
the map says, we'd be able to extend trails that currently exist and make them more um traversible, but this one would be a whole new trail, right? This is new. This is this is adding what we thought was a significant benefit to the community. And so that's why we kind of
prioritize the middle school to high school um along with these other. That's not to say we're not trying to look at those and we're just putting them up on the shelf. We're we're definitely going to work with those and as we get as we have steps along the way that we can actually or an execution
step. The reason why this became public and because now we're at an execution step. You know, it doesn't make sense to if we if we're not at the execution step, you know, there's not much we can do. Um so we were at the execution step
and that's why I came public. Yeah. I mean, I will say in discussions I've had with um you know the cross country coach at the high school and teachers at the middle school about this trail and other parents of middle school students, this trail I think serves the greater good of Sparta than a lot of other
trails that might serve hikers or runners that that you maybe want to be on the outskirts of town. This is in the center of town supports kids in both schools that go back and forth the cross country team and then any of you that you know live that want to get somewhere central in town. This had the greater good. If you look at, you know, what
trails per purp, this this trail had a lot of purposes. And I think uh for me that was a no-brainer. And you talk to people involved in that, involved at the cross country program, the high school, the middle school. This is a need. I had to pick my kid up every day for about a month, month and a half last year to drive them.
And for the two other major projects we were looking at, we're a municipal committee here trying to fill the gap left behind by the state government that proposed and put on all the groundwork for these projects to get done speci specifically these rails to trails that
were supposed to be state state trails that are now owned by the county which our county only has one county park in Newton Green. And it it's it's been a that has been an uphill battle for sure to persevere um and get the support of the county and also the state with all
of their consistent shiftings at the D to um actually have interest in getting back in these projects that they put on paper, put their word and and support behind back in 2005, 2010 and never manifested. So that's it's difficult as a municipal committee to try to fill
that gap, but it's something that we've been trying to do based on that. um open space committee passed by the town council that highlighted a lot of recommendations built off of the survey uh done by the general public. But the there are certainly major projects that we're really trying to focus on as well.
>> Yeah, I think we can start. We're going to do a bit of a question and answer. So we can just probably have if anyone wants to. >> Yeah, I think >> so. The one of the biggest issues that's causing confusion is the cons the constant shifting back and forth. Is
this a trail as you first presented very nicely uh that is going to go from the west mountain to the station park and back and forth and that's what this land swap is about or is it the high school middle school trail. So, but you keep
using language that says the high school middle school trail. And I understand that that might be something in the future, but this is causing a lot of confusion with the people that are sitting here. So, if we could just stick to one plan and explain that to the end and then explain what's maybe next and
what's after that instead of switching what we keep calling things, >> it will make things a lot clearer. >> I think let me think that that was my first question. This is part of because if you look at the trail itself, look
>> the overall package is to go from here to here. This involves a natural land trust. That's why I tackled this first because I had to get there. >> Next step getting through a federal over here. That's a bigger hurdle. And actually
Mr. There we go. Like that. So, when we're talking specific, >> I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when we're talking specifically about the resolution that's in front of town council, which is what I think everybody is here about, as well as the survey stakes in the ground and all of that,
>> we're only talking about this. >> Correct. And so if we keep talking about this interchangeably in the same conversation, you need to stop that because you're confusing people and you're making people think that you're either trying to get one over or you're
something's hidden. So this is the resolution. This is the land swap. This is a wannabe maybe next step. >> Yeah. Working hard on >> right. Okay. >> But let me ask you, >> is there additional land swap required
if you want to extended? >> No. Down to the middle school. >> But can you not >> and can you >> not at this point? >> Can you >> can you The question was, is there an additional land spot that would be necessary to complete the other portion
which is the other side of West Mountain to the middle school, >> which is the actual middle, >> it won't be a land swap. >> It won't be a land swap, but there's a significant issue there that I think that you can >> if anybody has any further questions, can we please use the microphone? USDA
federal lands have an easement. Will I'm going to have to get a lease over? It's complicated. I think we leave it at that until till I have real answers for you. >> Yes. >> Can you use the microphone, please? I'm sorry.
I I can say in six months or so we should have answers on the middle school to West Mountain Road connection. At this point best left alone, >> the middle school to >> the middle school to the high school is
my concern. And when you were at the town council meeting, that's where you said you wanted to put the trail. Here's my concern. That swamp down in there is loaded with bears. And until somebody can say, "We're going to have security
between the middle school and the high school, we got a problem, a real problem, because there's a fair amount of bear down in that swamp." I've hunted around this town all my life, so pretty much know where things are. The other thing, too, is is there any way, Doug,
that you can find property to swap that doesn't back up behind people's homes? Because once this is turned over to the state of New Jersey, conservatory, whoever you want to call this thing, the public has the right to go on that
property. So, you folks really don't know what's going to be in your backyard. You have no clue. Anybody can go on that property. It's now public property. >> They can now. >> Well, yeah, but once the state opens it up and says it's public state property,
it's like green acres land. They're they're free to go. And my other question is, do we have to use this land to swap or can we find other land? >> The these have the environmental aspects that the the um state is looking for.
They don't want upland. They want >> swamp land. swamp land. Quality swamp land. >> Okay. What about all the parcels out on Route 15? Like the corner of Deerest Road and Route 15? That's all swamp down all all the way down to Walt Dannis's old house. Then there's >> that's all private.
>> No, it's township owned property. >> Township owned. Okay. Well, >> that's township. I looked at the map. >> They didn't um they didn't pick they sent me a map of possibilities to >> Okay. All right. That's that answers my question. They sent you the map. >> They chose the one said you can pick these. That answers the question. We don't want this. We don't want that.
Yeah, suggestions. >> That's also though just there's a reason why they sent what they sent, right? Because there's currently the Sterling Hill preserve that the trust already has and then the Walkill preserve. And so what this does, I I understand the
rationale that they went through, which is this would add what I would say contiguity to now they have more contiguous land that's part of the Sterling Hill, part of the Walkill. So that's why they wanted that particular whereas if you tell them go get this
property way out in 15 in Demer they're like why would I want that? We don't even have preserved over there. >> Well there's a trail that goes through their railroad trail. >> Yeah I'm saying but the new the reason I think your question was why did the New Jersey land trust pick what they picked? I think it makes sense because hey we
want to make sure the Sterling Hill and the Walkill Preserve have more land to it. And it doesn't make sense that Sparta owns this patch, you know, and then the New Jersey Land Trust owns this patch. Now we're going to have the New Jersey Land Trust will own all those patches if this goes through. >> Well, the only thing I'm against is it's
in behind those houses. I I think if we could find a better piece of property and protect these people, I think everybody be happy, me included, because it's just I Would you like people walking in your backyard? >> I mean, they The thing is they could do that now.
>> They don't though. township owned property, >> but we don't have there's no prohibition right now. And it's and I think the >> unless you're a resident of Sparta Township, you can't use the Sparta Township, Glenn. And it's pretty much the same way for all township property. You can't have people just go use the
parks and stuff in town or the ball fields cuz they're not from Sparta. >> There's nothing we can do to prohibit someone from Andover coming to the station park. And and so um I think what it's my >> my you know my concern is
times have changed in Sussex County. Let's face the facts of life and Route 15 before the 15 was here. Nobody came to Sparta. Now they rob houses in Sparta, bust into houses in Lafayette. They're on Route 15 and gone in 5 minutes. There's no way we can catch
them. And I have a concern there. That's a very remote area in this town. you know, that's my concern. That's that's my only concern. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, I don't want to hold it though, but I'm probably too short for this.
Okay. So, one of the things that I had mentioned based on the map that you had posted was the potential of another crossing of West Mountain Road closer to the intersection with 517 and and that is a concern as a resident who deals with the traffic at drop off and pickup.
I commiserate with you having to drop off or pick up at one school or the other. Um, you know, if I leave work 5 minutes late, I'm stuck in 20 minutes of traffic at the high school. So, I'm someone who lives that traffic every day. Um, as it stands now, the students
who, um, use those upper fields, they traverse down West Mountain on the same side as the middle school and the stadium. Um, and as it stands now, they don't even have a protected walkway. So, if there's funds available, I would see
it used there. But now you're introducing traffic on the other side because Mr. Dyster just outlined this is a loop. So, now you've got people on both shoulders. So in the afternoon you're thinking someone's going to exercise and ride their bike or run and be on the bike side of West Mountain and
now you've got the kids going back and forth to use the fields. Um that just is a recipe for disaster. Um when I was here I had actually after um I think you actually caught us during the break at the council meeting that the chief of police so very kindly shared with me the traffic survey. He said it's only 1% of
the accidents of the total number of accidents that occur in Sparta occur at that intersection. But that's scary. Um so that is definitely a concern would be then traffic on the side of both sides of West Mountain Road in addition to the traffic there. That's definitely um a
concern. Do we have any estimated costs of this? So we're only talking about this section of the trail now. Do we have any estimation at any point? I don't know who that would be. >> Not at this point because we're Yeah, go ahead.
We we haven't got we haven't gotten to estimates yet and I've got I've got some plans in my head on what to do with West Mountain Road. >> Meet with the town engineer and spitball a little bit >> but um >> until we have a reason.
>> Well, I mean there >> Yeah, there is a reason definitely for the kids. I would love to see the kids not on West Mountain that's there now. >> Yeah, this study is going to go we're going to get this concept to a next level. We're going to go on to do the leg from the middle school to West
Mountain Road and then the connection to the high school. All of that has to be addressed before a shovel goes in. >> All that has to be addressed. >> Um I think some of the confusion with the language that was used is that October 3rd, you know, the New Jersey
Land Trust unanimously agreed to accept the land that Sparta gave them was the word that you used. So I think that made it sound like you gave them land. Um, so that was, I think, part of the confusion with why people believe that this conveyance was further along. And the
language in the resolution also kind of lent itself to this isn't starting the discussion because I did speak to the to the um preserve manager. He was phenomenal, but he's like, we're unanimously approved. We're just waiting for deed conveyance. As far as their the air side, this is a done deal. They're
just waiting for deed conveyance. So that to someone who doesn't know about lands or zoning or building, that sounds like it's pretty far along. So that's why I did bring my concerns to the environmental commission as well. And a couple members there sounded like they
didn't realize where it was in the process either. So I did ask for their input on this as well at this point. Um you know, the preserve manager, he was very upfront and he didn't tell me the kind of turtle either. Um but he said it was owls, bats, turtles, bobcats, the
there was quite a few. And he described the the difference in the land. Um the the land that they would be giving to Sparta was ecologically depleted, non-desirable real estate, the 5 acres. Um and that the 28 acres was ecologically rich, filled with species
that they would love to investigate. Um and so that's how he kind of described the thing. And for anyone who asked about the 5 to one, that's in their guidelines as well. that's clearly defined. Um, yeah. And the other question I had was, um, regardless of what we call it and
where it goes to and where it ends, um, there was a significant amount of time from when you presented this initially to the land trust and went back and had this vote and everything and then we went to the council meeting and then after all of that, the school board made a public statement. So can you address
that to the group too because they said they were not on board for use of their land at this time for this endeavor? >> Yeah, my you know with for this part of it the part that the Sparta Township owns the school board doesn't have they
don't own that land. So that I don't that's why but we've had a meeting with members of the school board. Um but for this particular phase of it >> we're not there yet. >> Yeah, we're not there yet. Of course, when it involves uh school property, we will most
certainly have the school board involved in that, you know, we because we don't have jurisdiction really to to do anything with their property. So that that's why I think that the confusion was this property itself doesn't necessarily involve we're taking Sparta
Township property that we own, not the school, and proposing that we convey it to that. Now for the larger project, the larger parts of the trail that will involve the school, of course, we are most definitely going to include them.
So that's and they know that and so we will, you know, as we move hopefully to the next phase of this, which does involve the school board, we will most certainly bring them in. >> Okay. I mean, I think that had something to do with the whole middle school to high school trail when you're talking
about two school buildings um and then the school board comes out and says, "We're not a part of this. we don't give permission for this. That also leads to another, you know, we want to be able to trust everyone sitting up there. And there's just been a lot of contradictions that lead people to
believe that not everybody's been 100% trustworthy. And and in talking about the next section, can you go a little bit more in detail about the federal >> at the beginning though, I think I acknowledged it. You know, when you say something's not trustworthy, you're implying a a degree of intentionality.
There's no intent here to try to mislead anyone. Now, we try to be as communicative as possible. You know, I acknowledge at the beginning and even Landon picked up on it that we could be better, but and and and I understand people's natural mistrustworthiness,
right? I get it. Like, you know, there, you know, two years ago people had, you know, all of a sudden an ordinance pops up that no one had ever heard of, right? I I get it and I understand you know and you would think I would of anyone would
understand that and I get it Jen I get it and I you know but please know that there was no intentionality here to let's you know not you know disclose this and disclose and maybe disclose that really it's not it's just you know we can do a better job of communication
we will and you know thank you for pointing that out to us that it's not getting across in a way and it it causes the public to mistrust us and that's the last thing anyone here wants. We really do. >> So, and it it is no statement to the committee at all. I see all the hard
work that these people are doing and and they weren't there when all of this was initially conveyed. So, >> and that's and that's the why we're sitting down here. We're not up on the dis or anything. We're trying to build back trust and ensure that we're all on the same page here and can actually all
understand what's going on because it's everything's easier said than done and you see it on the map and you see the drawings and stuff, but um taking the you know actually taking the time to understand it and go through it um it's very complex and um like pointing out
why the school board made a statement like that it makes sense inherently, right? There's a lot of confusion on this right now amongst everybody in the the town based on what's been going on. And that's where we're trying to come in and confirm about where we're at. And we're just not at that stage for the for the municipal or the the school district
in those negotiations and those conversations yet. But when we are at that stage and if we are able to bring back trust and and and um gain support for a land swap and continue on going forward with trying to achieve a larger plan because inherently we're not just
trying to do this one project either, right? Like that we're going to be like it it is wrong to use the final term of the idealist uh connected school trail. But that was the concepts and and using
it as um excuse me using use looking at just the first phase right now is is difficult because frankly just looking at the first phase really does nothing. It's it's a nice extension of station park. It can provide some shoulders security for our
um students, which as a high schooler who graduated in 2022, I've uh seen or 2023, excuse me, I've seen um countless students use that uh shoulder and countless students park in Station Park to get to high school and
countless students having to, you know, swerve away from groups of five walking shoulderto-shoulder. And we are looking to address all of this with the help of everybody here because you're all going to be using it too. This is your infrastructure. This is for future students. And um that's us as a
committee and that we were not with the deadlines as you serve. We saw you saw the dates. We could have done a better job communicating it to all of you about the status, about where we're at, about how this project actually fits into the greater things so that there wasn't a concept, a miscommunication of what
phases are we in, where what is this greater trail, is it on my property, where's this land swap, who's the agency. That's the last thing that we wanted to do. And being in university right now and learning about all of this, um, about how this is how projects die and fail, miscommunication.
and we have a responsibility regardless of how we we took a responsibility to be on this committee and to to try to work for this project. So, um, as chairperson, I I I appreciate the mayor taking responsibility, but I also take responsibility, too. And I apologize for, um, anything or everything that in
this particular situation where there's there's been, uh, miscommunication. And I I apologize for, um, just I wish that this was done in a more appropriate way where you do not have to be wasting your time. Not wasting your time, but coming out of your homes, right? This is a th
your your Thursday evening. Um you can be enjoying yourselves at night um with your families, but you're here because of directly exactly directly impacting you >> and u we want to do it right and we don't want to leave you all m you know empty-handed.
>> So you did mention like there are a lot of students that do park at Station Park and there is a an established trail between the high school and Station Park. >> It's paved. >> Oh yeah, it's paved. It's a nice trail then they've improved it. I mean it's it's a nice trail that connects the two.
So Was the I mean this like what is the need for a second trail from Station Park to West Mountain? >> I couldn't hear you. >> To make to make one one a major conversation we heard as well is parents
often have students that are in multiple grades, right? So one might be at the high school, one might be one might be at the middle school. >> They're talking about the loop. >> Yeah, the loop. We'll keep it to the loop. We got to not talk about she knows my I have too many children. >> I'm trying to I'm trying to answer the question that was directed which was
asking about the greater project and and >> I think they I'm sorry L. I think what you mean is they're talking about the this phase we're talking about now. >> Why is it that we want that? >> I think that would be helpful. Yeah, this particular component.
>> This this phase is important because it ultimately will grow into a greater project, but in its current capacity, it provides um a direct connection to the middle school to our Veterans Memorial Fields.
>> No. So, this is station park, >> excuse me, not the middle school, the the the high school location, not the high school itself, the high school location and station park location. It will create more interconnectivity to the veterans memorial fields inherently. That's the initial concept. Correct. Am I Am I wrong with that, Doug?
>> So, Veterans Memorial Fields. >> So, that's the fields behind the bus across the street from West Mountain by the bus depot. >> Yeah. Access to those as well. >> Access to those in Station Park area. That's inherently the initial goal. >> Okay. So, I mean they as right now with
the access that the students have, they use the trail from Station Park to the high school. They cross at the lighted crosswalk at the stadium and they come up the shoulder on the same side as the bus yard. That's that's that is the the the current traffic path. So are you
suggesting there would be a different traffic path? >> There will event that's that's why you have to think about it in toto >> I'm trying. >> Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Um >> look at it look at it this way. This this project has many boxes to check.
First one, we're not going anywhere with that for the from Station Park to West Mountain Road without the Natural Land Trust. So, we checked that box. Next box is USDA. We get that box checked. Once we got them on board, we got the two biggest pieces, the two, in my mind, the
two biggest hurdles are under our belt. Then we go to the board of ed and the township for road reconstruction >> to connect. >> Not let's call it a wider shoulder, right? Wider shoulder. Maybe put everyone on one side, a curb, a guide
rail, separating pedestrian traffic completely from road traffic, but that's too much at this point. >> Yeah, there's a bridge. Yeah, but we have a 66 foot right away. And and so those are the phases. Once we get
box check, check check. I went through like six items, right? Once they're all checked, then we can >> start pricing this thing and start unpacking it and maybe go to construction. >> But we are way a long way from that. >> Long way from starting
>> everything. Next question. Where would the second trail walk? Where would this cross West Mountain Road? I'm on this side of the walk river now and we're going to go from Station Park
West Mountain Road. We're stacking across West Mountain Road to go to the middle school. >> Where there's there's two bike lanes there now and there's a crosswalk. >> At the bottom of the hill. >> At the bottom of the hill. So >> you're going to stay where the crosswalk. Hypothetically,
>> what's the purpose of the trail on this side of the hill? If you got to go all the way back down to cross >> ultimately, you can go all the way to the middle school, >> but you still got to come all the way back down the hill. So, you already have you already have a path that goes from
station park. >> Okay. All right. Um, I have a suggestion. >> I'm missing something. >> You should we have a committee. >> I'll miss something. >> Come join us. You're the engineer. I'll miss something. I'm I'm a land survey, but um you can volunteer to come sit on this board and love to have your suggestions.
>> I volunteer for enough. >> Okay. But >> it's hard to like address these type of a questions until we get to a point that we can actually answer questions. >> Yeah. Go ahead, Mr. >> Just to get some clarification.
>> All the red dots are what was set in the field. Just to get some clarification and try to support what Jen said earlier. Um Doug, you stated that you went down to the land trust. >> Yeah. >> To just flaw out the concept and you had a just a general
>> they had a lunch meeting. They invited me to >> and then you left with some type of concept that is workable. Come back figure it out. >> That's where they suggest go back to them. You had not spart has not made application. >> No at this point. >> Jen, you said you spoke to the land trust. >> Oh yeah.
>> Gentleman. Yeah, Jason. >> Jason. Yep. >> And he says that they passed resolutions and are ready to go. >> They said that they unanimously accepted Sparta's um I don't know what the word they use. Proposal. Thank you. >> So, how did they get that far in their process over a concept meeting? Usually
there's they have procedures and I think that's what I think that's what would help this flow. I'm here to support everybody to the public and also all your hard work to lay out procedural outlines. you know, you know, we need to do A, B, C, D, things that are required
almost like a flowchart to support whether it's this part of it or the other part, the overall comprehensive trail program and then to support the other comments, how's it financed and all those other questions, but I think a flowchart, a logic chart outlining the the process would bring a lot of clarity
and I think it would cause, you know, get rid of some of the confusion here. That's the only thing I've just been listening. >> I will say internally that's how we worked. We Maybe we need to share that. >> Let's get this. Let's get this. And then we were at the point where we bring it to the public. >> So, so from our my perspective, the land
trust passed a resolution in support of a concept that was just discussed in a meeting, >> not necessarily formally applied for or submitted. >> It's not formal until a deed has been signed. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, until a deed
is signed. This is simply a concept. It could it could it could die tomorrow and there's no liability either way, right? So, >> I would like for us to zoom out to the big picture again and why we're doing
this. Um, and I recall that this has to do with the master plan and the will of the people. So, can we talk about that again? >> Sure. I mean, I think I alluded to it at the beginning, which is, you know, I
mean, there's surveys. You've been on the rec committee for how long? I mean, y'all did a survey, but yeah. And year after year, you hear we want trails, >> you know, >> more walk >> and then if you look at the most recent survey for the master plan, it was
preserve open space, right? So, >> and also less traffic >> and less traffic. And so let's say we don't do any trail. This doesn't happen and we and we still wind up conveying
five these 20ome odd acres to New Jersey land trust. That's still furthering the number one because it was it was the number one priority in the survey that was just done recently which is to preserve open space. And so if we don't
even do this trail, which I hope I really want us to, there's still a a goal that we've accomplished, which is to now we have this 20ome acres that isn't owned by Sparta Township that has it's no longer residential. It's no
longer the possibility of being able to be developed into a housing, you know, and that now belongs to New Jerseys Land Trust whose sole mission it is to preserve it. So, I hope we can do this. Um, we're just at the beginning, but
even if we don't, and this ends up we we just give this 20ome acres to the New Jersey Land Trust, we've still accomplished one goal. So, I think that >> preserve open space, walkability, right? Trails. This is what the people
have expressed that they want and improvement to the schools as well, which is we're not talking about that, but >> thank you. Thank you. Is that okay? I want to piggyback on that a little bit. Um, first, thank you all for doing this tonight. I know this
is a little bit out of the ordinary. So, I just want to say thank you because there's been a lot of miscommunication and and confusion out there. So, I think this is very beneficial for our community and I'm glad that you guys are here tonight to to make these clarifications. Um, I had a whole thing prepared and I
I've been checking them off as as the meeting is going on. So, I I just thank you for that. It sounds like I'm thinking the same way uh the public the rest of the public is. So, that's good. So, uh, as a resident who was excited about the idea of having trails for kids
and being a parent myself, I personally did some research, you know, listening to a lot of this conversation. Um so tonight I wanted to come here and share some of that um and ask some questions as well. First I think what was answered my assumption was the New Jersey Lands
Trust was chosen as the independent state agency to swap the land with because that agency already has land in the focus area. Is that fair? >> Okay. Um it was touched on about the New
Jersey Natural Lands Trust about it being when it was established and you know its mission. I also found that um very exciting that they are really focused on preserving land and protecting natural diversity all of that. um to talk more about that. In my
research, I found that in 2024 alone, this agency added more than 500 new acres to its already 120 preserves throughout our state. Um specifically here in Sussex County, 174 acres of
those lands were in Franklin and Hardison, and that helped connect the wildlife habitats here. Um somebody brought up the guidelines, I think it was you, Mrs. off about um the uh the guidelines for conveyance of land. I I found it encouraging
um information because it discourages it specifically in there discourages the conveyance of trust land for any reason, but it can be considered in cases that would yield a significant public benefit and would still uh have to enhance the
preservation of that land. Um, someone touched on I think Landon or or Doug you did the five to the five times the conveyance that's literally in their um guidance. So that's not like a madeup number or somebody decided that it's written in their guidance that it
was found very easily. Um the website also has an FAQ that refers to these guidelines uh and answers the question how do I know that my land will be permanently preserved? Um so and and they refer you back to that um guidelines for conveyance of land. So it
was really really heartening to see and encouraging to see that all worked out with this with this uh agency. Um what else? I have a bunch of stuff here and I don't want to take up too much time because I know there's others that want to speak. Um, an important note which I think was touched on, but I
just want to re reiterate, um, the contracts that were discussed, um, they have to come back in front of the town council in order for that to be approved, right? Like this resolution in a couple weeks that would be discussed or ordinance, I forget which one it is, is just opening the door for those
conversations, but I think Doug, you said it would take probably a year to arrive at the back and forth of a final contract that would be signed >> at that. hopefully faster but >> yeah but at that point >> that has to come back before the town
council in order to move forward. So nothing to clarify that nothing can be conveyed even when that contract is drawn up until the town council >> right >> agrees that those are the terms and conditions and that is all so >> doesn't sign the deed >> in fact nothing can be conveyed
>> because it has to go before us it has to come before you >> right >> meaning you'll get to see it and like I I said it'll come back you know I totally get you know the rogos's point which is don't be giving my property to the New Jersey land trust >> and other toally get it and we'll make
sure that that you know the way that's described in there that not you know not a blade of grass that belongs to the rogue offs is going to the New Jersey land trust >> by us means the town council >> um one thing I also want to address that
was uh a concern of mine as well and other members of the public um the Sparta Mountain WMA um as we know there's been some challenges there it's another DA agencies. So that makes people go not sure about that. But that is Fish and
Wildlife and the Ottabbon Society, right? And Fish and Wildlife has a much different mission than the New Jersey Lands Trust, right? The Fish and Wildlife agenda is managing and protecting wildlife species and their habitats through activities like habitat
enhancement and population monitoring. Those are two different focuses, right? We're talking about preservation versus managing and protecting wildlife. So that made me feel a little bit better. Hopefully it helps to bring that information to the the public as well. Um because that was a big question for
me. Um to continue just a few more seconds here. Uh I understand you know Sparta had a trails plan for as early as the 1980s and 90s and Landon you can probably speak to that more. Um and that
contemplated connecting trails in Sparta to the larger trail system at Sussex County. Right. Uh a few weeks a few weeks ago, a clear history was explained by the environmental commission chair on how more recent open space planning and surveys again receive feedback from the
public on the desire to have more trails in Sparta and also to help our community become more walkable, including to and from schools. As a parent, I would like to have my children have the opportunity to explore our town with a bike or on foot in a safe way.
There's currently a trail that connects Lake Mohawk to Mohawk Avenue School, but I think that's as far as it goes. Thinking bigger picture, when I was part of the state plan endorsement committee, I came across a state grant called Safe Roots to School.
Uh, and I looked that up and as of 2014, they had awarded over $19 million to communities for projects that enable kids to have safe ways to get to school. That's a grant that doesn't come from taxpayers. So thinking about our kids getting around safely doesn't
necessarily mean that the onus would be solely on the town to make that happen. So I just want to thank you all for being here tonight and I think this has come a long way to helping clarify some of these these concerns and mistruths and misunderstandings. So thank you all.
>> Thank you. >> Yeah. And I think you know thank you Kathy. And I think definitely, you know, when we've talked as a committee, we definitely talk about we that's and I say this to all my committees, figure out what grant money is available. Um,
and how do you and again, how do we not you know, we have to take the onus off of our township employees because that's probably why if if you know, we could go hire someone for $50,000 a year to just put them on the trails. We want you to figure it out. Get the grand. We're say
we don't we're not doing that. We do this as volunteer, but we definitely want to have, you know, grant money. Thank you. Um and appreciate you pointing out, you know, there are grants and we will be that's another phase of this is figuring out, okay, can we get grant money for this? So, thank you.
>> Yes. >> A couple things. Uh I would advise you all to not do anything until you have a full governing body. Uh secondly, uh Doug, question for you. Having been involved in this development
of station park and discussions at the high school when they were on to put a stadium in the backside, the buffer zones that surround the Walkill River, are they defined on any maps? Because they range from 300 to 150 ft and that
could impact a lot of your plan. So, you got to get that resolved with D well beforehand. And lastly, um, nobody on the governing body or this committee can issue a public a purchase order. Local
public contracts law restricts any monies expended or any purchase orders issued by the town to only one or two individuals on the staff. And nobody in the government body can contract for any goods or services at any time or commit
public monies. Just a reminder >> and none has Yeah, I mean so just to clear that up. >> Thank you for the comments. >> Yeah, good comments, Jerry. Um Rick Fankl, I remember when this immediate
this committee was initially formed. I sat through the first couple meetings and I remember this is one of the topics, one of the priorities based on the surveys that came from the recck department. Walkability, interconnection, trails, etc. I
encourage you guys to move forward. I think there's two key priorities. One is improved communications to the community, especially the property owners in question. and two is just clarifying some of the stakes that were set and some of the boundary lines. But
I think this is a great idea and I encourage you guys to pursue this as soon as possible. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Just uh speaking before I forget, is John still here? Yeah. Hi John. Um yeah,
you were asking why this project. Um, and I would anybody who wants to know why this was one of the we have like four or five projects at the beginning of our our meetings that we felt we could actually do u for many different
reasons. But that sprung from the open space and recreation committee uh project that was completed and voted by the planning board and the council to be accepted that was done by the New Jersey
land conservancy. So if you look at that I think believe it's still online if you will see that the land consery makes specific suggestions based on their research. Uh and one of
the important things of course is keeping Sparta rural, right? Keeping um people together and connected a community bonding us together with trails and walkability.
All of that was considered um in this report that's available online. And if you sit down and you look at the suggestions, you'll see that that trails like the Iron Horse Trail, the Ogdensburg Trail, and looking closely at
connectivity in the school areas was um ranked way up there in the suggestions. And you can't keep Sparta rural unless you preserve the land. There's no way that that we'll be able to keep us
rural. So, and also um people that I know who have been fortunate, I think fortunate enough to own land that's next to trails like the Sussex Branch Trail, the Pollen Skill Valley Trail, the Andover Trail, the values of their
property go up. So, these are things I would like you to keep in mind. And also um one other thing uh is is that what an opportunity to have a trail the kids access a trail
next to their school. What an ecology lesson for them to work to walk out there and they become the teachers then. Okay. And the artists and everything um having access better safe access.
Station Park is a great place to work walk, but it's no loop. And if you're at the playground with grandkids or whatever, it would be nice to not have to walk through a parking lot with the stroller, but maybe out a little ways
and back, you know, uh to West Mountain at this point, at this stage. And who knows, maybe even further in the future. Yes, >> I just want to add to that too that we have a scout in our troop who's uh building a his eco project that he's
going to work on in the spring is building an outdoor classroom at the middle school and the science teacher has agreed to maintain it after he moves on to high school through the science club there. A trail just to extend that. I mean it's just a what an opportunity for those students to you know to
Christine's point. Hi, I just wanted to thank everyone for coming out tonight and especially the committee for spending the time to put this together and and Doug, thank you very much for coming out here and thanks for taking the time to speak to the
deputy mayor and myself today. Um, the reason we, you know, the reason we voted no is because we hadn't heard anything about it. We didn't understand it and we wanted to make sure that the interests of all the residents are protected and it seems like there's
been a lot greater education here. I think there are a few certainly some other things that we have to do. I'd like to make sure that with those deeds when they're when when and if they're ever conveyed are very very tight in in the restrictions as to what the future
use of that lane can be. >> Okay. as we discussed today. So I just really want to thank you all for your time and thanks for all the effort and hopefully we can continue this type of discussion going forward. Thank you. >> Can you also mentioned the land that was
part of the conveyance in the separate issue. Can we look at that which happened to also be at the end of Milstone Court the land that the additional acreage that was it has something to do with the landfill. Can you explain the buffer? There was something not there's a lot that has
something to do you know which I'm talking about Neil >> which >> so there's something to do with the buffer. There was buffer for closing the landfill. >> Oh. Oh that's separate. Yeah that's we don't have any this committee doesn't have any jurisdiction over that. So I
know you're talking about the um >> because I think it actually is. I I don't think the landfill is a totally separate issue. Meaning in when we wanted to close the landfill, there's a certain parcel that we needed, >> right? >> Uh for you know, and so that's to that's not anything we're dealing with here.
>> But I think it was actually >> this happened this piece and this piece happened to be part of that. >> Yeah, they are. So those those aren't >> Yeah. No, I >> I was just cur I mean >> Yeah. No, I think No, I think what you're saying is there was when we were
looking at this initially, we had to make sure that we were keeping the the the land separate. Part of the land had to go for purposes of the D for the wetlands. That's not this though. We fig we figured that out and that's not this. >> Okay. Because that that land will join
with this to that's part of what's going to unite those two preserves. Correct. >> This is natural land trust right here. This will be that natural land trust. This is D wildlife management area.
>> So that's going to what I what was explained to me was that in combination will unite the two preserves. And then the the road access actually that they will have because they had some landlocked pieces. So the road access should they want to access it is
actually at the end of Old Cedar. >> Right. As it is now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, there's a road access now, but that >> it's not great. You come off >> Lane in whatever it is. It terminates a
great >> Brooks flat. >> Brooks flat. >> Brooks Flat in Ogdensburg. >> Terminates. That's how this land. This is a bunch. >> All right. And in order, we are only
talking about that side of West Mountain, but to make this trail the complete picture, can you just give a little bit more information about what happens with that federal easement because that is a significant piece of making the next part? And I think that before we move forward with this, we
have to I think that >> that's my that's my next box to check. Um restricted to get in there. >> I have a great so much open space. >> Can you just explain maybe the timeline if that if this if this phase got done
then what would that look like? just just saying like that's a hurl right now. But that's next. >> But yeah, all of that's on hold until get this started and then, you know,
hopefully we can and then we'll going for the land. Okay. Who gets that land? Does it go to these people? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, same people get what's called
the landfill that is that part of this >> oneie. It's a separate >> a separate transaction. It's walkerve
>> so the pars you're talking now five times one whatever that is but we're gain landfill 77 correct >> something like that >> you know 17.
>> Yeah, it's Yeah, it's a stupid number. >> Where is that land on that map? >> Well, it's just one piece. These two pieces. >> Okay. So, it's all coming together. So, >> yeah, but we still don't have the approval for the landfill. Correct.
>> I think the contract signed on survey wide open. involved. Great. >> Is is there anyone in the public who wasn't able to ask a question? Yes. We want to make sure everyone gets a chance to use the microphone and ask. >> Board of Education is not involved yet, right? >> Not yet.
>> This first phase would only benefit the school, the students, right? The residents would not be able to use that trail. >> Everyone can use it. >> But you can't walk onto the uh school property between the hours of 8 and 5, right?
That's how that works. >> So, it's strictly for the students, right? >> Oh, no. This wouldn't be on school property. >> Not talking about the actual first phase, the loop that would go from station. >> In order to make the loop, you would
have to walk through the high school. >> But that's for the kids. The loop concept. >> So, I'm saying this phase one is strictly for school students, right? of school hours to your point, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Not really, but >> so it's strictly to uh
>> those hours just go weekend, holidays. >> Yeah. And that's that's schoolboard policy, s like that's something that >> it's the something that the school board district has as their policy. Yeah. >> Right.
>> Right. Yeah, it's still like >> it's just I think just so I make sure I understand your concern. Your concern is okay if you have this loop the loop is only good between certain hours, you
know, and that's and I get it, but we still are able to use it. I mean, >> well, we we're not even at the money phase yet. And I think that and the whole idea here is to make this >> in this Maybe there's a better way of doing that
system than you know >> resending all this money. >> There's no money being spent. >> Yeah. a lot of money. >> Well, yeah, but
I think as Kathy pointed out, there's grant money for this and and I I think I mentioned this at the last meeting, like you know, the whole idea is to try not to to make sure. Can you let me finish? Thank you. Um is to be able to make this as costneutral as possible. I mean,
we're going to try to get grant money, trying to do ways to do it. We don't pardon If the cost is going to be too much, then the project's not going to go forward. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We don't just Yeah. All of this,
you know, as as Councilman Scott pointed out, like he there's no public allowed to walk between age of five? >> I don't know that. I don't that that's that's something that we will be addressing with the school board when the time comes for that and we're just
we're not there yet. And I think that that's >> how can we decide on something that we don't have answers. >> You have well you have an answer for we we use that property all and there are people who walk on that property all the time. You know should they? Probably
not. Um, but I think that for the other reasons that we pointed out, the accessibility, the the the ability to have the loop, and at the, like I said, at the end of the day, I hope that's not all we get from this is that we take land and preserve it. So, let's say we don't do any trail at all. We now have
27 acres that is sitting there right now that Sparta Township owns that theoretically, let's just theoretically could be developed, that doesn't have the same restrictions that the New Jersey Land Trust has. It does not. And we can build into the
deed that we hammer out to to have all the concerns that people are having. No clear cutting, you know, all all those things that doesn't exist right now with the land that the Sparta Township owns. So there's a and and that furthers the
number one priority that the public has said over and over again is to preserve open space. Right now, that property that that we're considering conveying is not it's not as preserved open space as it would be if the New Jersey Land Trust own it. So, we would be furthering that
goal. So, even if we don't even do the trail at all, which I hope we I hope that doesn't happen, we now have at least knocked off that one goal. So that's the benefit >> and make it open space. There it is. You got your master plan people in place.
Change it >> because that's not the ultimate goal. The goal is to use it to swap and to build >> the trails. We're not at that stage right now for that. That's the difficulty with a a
project of this stature >> as well as the multiple phases that were in and then sadly the miscommunication that developed at first. So that's some >> on our end on our end. >> We don't know there yet. We don't know yet.
>> That's how those >> I'm sorry. That's you know that's how we're doing the best we can based on we're taking it phase by phase. you know, telling me telling us it's going to be a road for everyone to walk around. You know, people are going to be
riding their bikes. No, we won't. Who's going to be using it? Who's going to be using that? Would it be possible for you to explain the difference between the school property and the proposed trail
that would be part of the loop but the trail the new trail that would be accessible at all hours if I'm not mistaken as opposed to the loop piece. Correct. There is a part of the trail the new piece of the trail will be accessible at all hours. Correct. Dawn to dusk. >> West Mountain to station.
>> Correct. Can you clarify that for the room? >> How many feet station part to West Mountain? >> That's the only part we can use. >> But that's the part we're talking about here tonight. Right. The school's still there. It's always there.
>> We're not we're not able to talk about further phases yet. Sadly, we're not at that stage. >> Let's call it West Mountain Station Park. But it's a loop that does not involve school property. So you would be able to use that at all hours. Right. The
property that we're talking about um right now that we're acquiring from the New Jersey land trust and and part of it's not owned by the school. >> Let's call it middle school to high school trail. Now we're leaving that whole middle school out >> for now. >> Let's call it station park to West
Mountain. >> So literally West Mountain to station park. That's all it is >> for now. We we can't we can't have five things up for vote at once. That's the problem. We're not Well, that's why spec please please please just one. That's why some of these other projects have
never actually manifested because municipalities and counties have taken the stature of we don't want to peace meal a trail. We want to get all five miles, all six miles done at once. And it falls apart though. It never gets done. it it it and and and as taxpayers, you were under the assumption it was
going to get done and advertised in these brochures that you're going to have access to these trails and you never did. So, we're trying to find out what's best to do because if we put all of our eggs in our basket and we don't peacemeal it bit by bit, we risk doing all of the work for years and having it
all fall apart at the end. We have to sadly even though it's difficult and on our end we're going to do our best to make sure the communication is as crystal clear as well as notice about our meetings communication with environmental commission and rec rec committee um about just to make sure
that there's a common consensus about how this works and I know we're getting late so I want to try to make sure everyone who has some final questions can make sure they can just for my clarification we're done when you assume this went through you went to do the land swap
Does the is are the trails the construction and the completion of the trail subject to that trans legal transaction or is the land swap done first and the trails are done separate? Are they tied as as a kind of deliverable to the to the transaction
real estate deal or they separate >> township would have to own the property. >> So once they flip it's then >> start not My question is is the purpose of this to really just
land land bank land trustees parcel or the what what is the main purpose? You're going to say probably both. I get it. But which one's the main? >> We can't build a trail. Yeah. >> We can't. So it's it's So we can't build a trail if we don't own the land where
the trail is going to go, right? So first we got to >> No. Well, the main purpose is to build the trail. Yeah. Is to build the trail. >> Land swapping and securing and preserving. >> Well, what I was trying to Yeah. And I I
understand where the confusion is. What I was trying to do is try to, you know, I'm a worst case scenario person that And so the worst case scenario, worst thing that happens in this endeavor, we swap the land, right? And no trail gets
built. What I was trying to convey to the um um the woman in the back was that what would happen then worst case scenario is we now have the New Jersey land trust and we have a built-in deed that has is very restrictive that says
you can't do basically anything to this land. And so the worst case scenario is that land that these homeowners have have come to look at and enjoy and and and have some degree of confidence that a housing development is going to just show up in their backyard now have an
extra degree of confidence because now it's owned by the New Jersey Land Trust. That's what my point was. That's not the ultimate goal of this of what we're doing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Is there anyone else from the public who
Are you referring to the >> Yeah, I mean our agenda was essentially dictated around this trail conversation. >> We have just regular business that we have just minutes to approve. But I want to make sure no one leaves here.
If they have a question, you know, speak now forever hold your peace till the next meeting, you know, you know, so, you know, we've taken up uh close to two hours tonight and I appreciate everyone,
you know, coming out and um like I said, you know, we will endeavor to communicate better with you and we totally understand. while there was concern um you know and and and that lies you know part with me about you
know and I get it and just know that we're trying to do the best we can here you know we're really excited about this possibility um of of really accomplishing something that you know has been talked about but never really executed upon and we're
we're trying to do that and we look forward to being able to talk to you about these other trails that we have that we'd like to do you uh the you know Ogdensburg's one the Iron Horse Trail you know we'd like to do be able to do those as well and um
you know and we'll bring the public with us along the way um because I think once you see it and get you you'll be pretty excited about it as we are why else would we that we have but this is this is hard work it's a lot of a lot of work to do
and I want to thank Doug for lending his you know profession expertise at no cost to the township whatsoever. um we were really indebted to him for for that and and thank you and thanks for everyone coming out and you know we'll you know
the next step really is to see if we can get a resolution passed to start the process of um you know contracting with the New Jersey Land Trust and and definitely um as that contracting process goes forward, you know,
Councilman Scott will definitely be brought in and to make sure that all council, you know, Council elect Sylvester who's here. He will know about what the proposed terms are and then the public will know once it's an actual contract. you know, we don't you're not
we're not allowed to share a contract negotiation if it's not finalized yet, but you'll know the contract and you know, like I said, we'll make sure that it has the protection at the public. >> I don't know if we have minutes on the agenda particularly, so we might have to just hold that for the next meeting and
do both the minutes unless you had it. You have it. >> Okay, I think that's better. Um, all right. Yeah, we've already been So, we're but not Oh, yeah. The grant money that was part of Yeah. Will there be within the
trails that we're talking about today? The construction and maintenance. Yes, we recognize that. But we're not at the level yet to say what that construction is going to be. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um I think in light of that, you know, like again, we can't
really schedule a meeting until we know because I think really for us it's like let's see where we are with being able to um start hammering out a a negotiation. >> Oh, yeah. We should mention that. >> Yeah. This was um Neil Sarah Wines here
from the environmental commission. Um this was part of the environmental commission. You could probably speak a little bit more to about the history maybe if you want to. >> They they made this possible. So I want >> two of these. >> Yeah. >> But um this was a part of if you want to maybe speak. Yeah.
>> Yeah. We uh we were able to get a grant from uh Sustainable Jersey >> topographic >> for uh uh you know for the um the plaque at uh uh the landing. What's the name of it? >> Yoners. >> Yoners Landing. Yes.
>> Yeah. Okay. That's uh and they haven't started the 2026 grant cycle yet. We have two organizations, Anjek and Sustainable Jersey that have grants, small, medium, and large grants that we
can apply for. Uh so once we know, you know, once they start this the uh the next cycle, we can apply for for hopefully a large grant uh to get this done. And there are other sources, too.
There there's county open space funding. I don't know if we'd be able to get any of that, but you know there there are other sources. >> They created a position say new open space director Joel trying to remember his name.
>> Oh, okay. Good, >> good, good, good. >> It's great that >> I think you're going to start hearing from other townships. I was at the um mayor's meeting about two weeks ago
where all the mayors are there and um there's other townships that are trying to you know do trails and I think the the great idea is that the county will get involved and so we have complete interconnectivity and you know that's what kind of sold me on it when I first
met Landon is he's like look there's a way that you can have a trail from almost Florida all the way down to >> the Appalachian Trail in Sussex. >> Yeah. all the way to Suffet. >> Um, but you know, you have to dream big to do that and that that's kind of, you know, but how do you get there? You have
to do it. It gets this tedious, right? And we're just talking this little part of it, >> right? >> I know. I I've spoken to uh one of the members of the Alamui Environmental Commission. They're they're trying to build a trail network,
too. And their goal is to connect everything. So that's, you know, >> they're doing pretty well. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Derek's place. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for helping us be able to
There will now be a usable sign that you can use. >> Someone left a question on the seat next to me. I'll just pass it to the chairman. I don't know that you have to address it tonight, but it was just something. >> Okay. Yeah. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
>> All right. So, I'm going to ask for a motion to adjurnn then from the >> All right. Is there a second? >> I All right. Thank you all for >> Thank you everyone. >> Time is 8:51. >> Yeah.
>> Watch the hot mics. Great job.