p.m. sharp. Adequate notice of this meeting was provided in the New Jersey Herald. It was also posted on the Sparta Township Bulletin board and the website in accordance with all provisions of the Open Public Meetings Act.
Also, formal action may or may not be taken tonight on the one application we're hearing. It's the practice of this board to salute the flag. Please rise and join us. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
please call the role. >> Michael, >> here. >> Richard Larua >> here. >> Michael Leondi >> here. >> Richard Roarbecker >> here. >> Jennifer Paha >> here. Michael Steinberg >> here. >> Chairman Kenneth Larry >> here. >> Ken Glenn Ke
>> here. >> And we have members to be reappointed when >> Yeah. Has everybody been sworn in? >> Sorry. >> Has anybody been sworn in? >> Not yet. >> Do we have the statements? >> Yes, we do.
>> All right. You want to make the official announcement, Glenn, for the >> Yeah. record. >> What I'd like you guys to do is stand up. I'm sorry. Raise your right hands and then since you guys have copies of it,
just read it together in unison as much as you can, I'll direct the choir. >> We solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey. that I will true faith and allegiance to the same and to the
governments established in the United States and in this state >> under the authority of the people and I will faithfully impartially and justly perform all duties of the Sparta Township Zoning Board of Adjustment >> according to my best of my abilities. So
help me God. >> Terrific. Welcome gentlemen. >> Thank you. >> Please sign them. I will witness it and then All right. in the second half. >> Wow, they are they were great. I'm talking >> Car.
>> And now for the reorganization of the zoning board. I'll turn it over to you, Glenn. >> Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. Sign those now. Okay. You want me to go through the whole thing, Ken? Or just >> Yeah, you did last year. It was very uh very nice that way, Glenn, if you don't
mind. >> X prom. So, you can assign that. >> Okay. I'd like we'll keep this simple unless there's any controversy. So, I'd like to open up the floor for nomination for the position of uh board
chair. >> Nominate Ken Lowry for chairman. >> Second. uh like to cast a unanimous vote. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> I. >> If I'm I'm not trying to Well, I am I'm
not trying to ramrod this through, but if there is somebody else that wants another position or there's some controversy, then just just pull a plug. But I don't get this. >> I'd like to thank the board for electing me chairman once again and for your continued support, all of you. Thank you.
>> Okay. I'd like to open the floor up for nominations for uh vice chair. >> I nominate Mike Leandi for vice chair. >> Second. >> All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I opposed.
>> Mike, I guess we should congratulate you. >> I guess the keeper of the conditions appointment of attorney. I make the motion to nominate Glenn Kates for the board attorney. I'll
>> second. >> Second. >> Now I'll open it up. Is there any other nominations? >> Do you object? >> No, sir. >> Really, it's really great being. >> Um, >> all those in favor say I, please. >> I. >> I.
>> No objections. All right. >> Thank you very much. It's really a pleasure. >> Uh, nominations for the position of board engineer. Nominate David Simmons for a board engineer. >> Second.
>> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> Thank you. >> David. Congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> Um, are we going to do a planner to >> I was going to say Oh, yes. You're here for Lindsay Knight, correct? Okay. >> And in herstead.
>> What's your name again, sir? >> Brian Interola. >> Brian. Okay. >> All right. So, I'd like to open up for nominations for board planner. Nominate Lindsay Knight. >> Second. >> All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I.
>> Congratulations, Lindsay. The appointment. >> We don't take it for granted. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Uh nominations for position of uh board secretary. >> I nominate Marissa Ferraro.
>> Second. Second. Uh any other adopt? No. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. >> I. >> Thank you. >> Welcome. >> All right. Uh now we have to adopt resolutions appointing professionals.
>> Yeah, that's uh resolution 2026 number one, Glenn. Oh, no, excuse me. I'm sorry. That's uh resolution 2026 Number two. >> Thanks, Ken. I I just don't have >> Yeah, it's number two. >> Okay.
>> Uh, do we have to read it into the record, too, Glenn, or not? >> Just read it by title, Ken. >> Okay. This is for the professionals that represent the board. The Glenn Keats from Wina Law Group, David Simmons
from Harold E. Pello Associates, Elise Hubert from Arazadi Falcon for a conflict attorney. Let's let's hold off on a lease. Uh well, let's let's table for a second because we didn't nominate a lease. >> That's right.
>> So, can we have nominations for conflict attorney? >> I nominate Elise Hubard for conflict attorney for the zoning board. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> continue. >> Thank you. Marissa Ferraro for zoning board secretary
and a cop and a copy of this resolution will be published in the New Jersey Herald. Do I have a second? >> Second. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> Thank you. >> What's the next one, Glenn? >> Appointment of official publication.
Um there's a memo from uh Kurro that outlines what it should be, but I think you have that in front of you, Melissa. >> Uh we want to nominate the New Jersey Herald, the Sunday
Herald, uh tap into Sparta, right? her other 2026 Sparta approved online newspaper publications uh are designated to receive courtesy electronic notices of meeting. Uh we'll
also be posting certain things on the Sparta site in accordance with law. We did a memo uh we have to follow what the governing body does. We did a memo to all of our boards telling everyone what to do. I don't know where Sparta is on
that, but we would just dovetail it. And uh the location of posting of notices shall be on the bulletin board. And also the uh anticipated Sparta approved public entity official internet
website location. That's the resolution. So we need a motion on a second. Kim >> second or so move. Second >> one resolution. Second. >> All those in >> favor. All those in favor?
>> I >> I >> and then we need to adopt the schedule of meeting dates. >> Yes. >> Change. Now any comments from the board members on these dates that are listed?
Look them over. Generally, what we're going to try and do is limit it to one meeting a month. That would be the second Wednesday of the month. If necessary, the fourth will be a spillover, but
we'll work together and try and figure it out. But there really is no need to drag everybody out two two nights a month. We're just not that busy. Nobody's nobody across the entire state as far as I know. Is >> you have to remember sometimes we're busy but we're very efficient in getting all the applications done on that one
night. >> Me too. Absolutely. >> Because you notice when we get to the annual report 26 applications. That's >> that's a good amount. >> That's absolutely true. >> Now what about November 25th? Is that anywhere near Thanksgiving before after?
I don't have a calendar in front of me. >> Day before. >> It's the day before. >> Day before. >> All right. So, >> may I want to just drop that off? >> Don't we usually drop them a day or two before? >> No, that's the fourth. >> You are so engaged.
>> So, do we have to have a motion, Glenn, to drop the 25th before we >> Yeah. Or you could keep it and just cancel it when >> the chair will entertain a motion approving the meeting dates for the zoning board 2026. >> So moved. Second, please. >> Second.
>> Second. >> All those in favor? I >> I. >> Thank you. >> Now, we'll get to the review and adoption of the 2025 annual report. Has all the board members looked it over and have any potential comments and
recommendations, etc. to the council and the planning board. And also, while you're looking it over again, if you haven't, for the public and the record, we had 26 applications to decide on before this board.
We had 18 C variances that were approved and three Dvariances that were denied. One application was withdrawn and four applications are pending. And just for the record, the DV
variances denied were the following. Elite Truck and Tire application 6-23, Door Anderson 13-23 for Dvarian and use variance site plan. That was installation of a digital
advertising sign. Going back to the elite truck and tire that was parking for motor freight uh vehicles and transfer of tires between vehicles and the last one denied was Lewis Paratha
and that was for two uh four two-bedroom units in the Morris Lake uh area, Lake Morris area. Now, any other comments from the members on the annual report?
Any recommendations to the council and the planning board for issues that may concern ordinance changes, etc. I have a few from last year that haven't been taken care
of yet. The ADUs, the accessory dwelling units, also called granny shacks. There's been no ordinance implemented on the ADUs. The feather advertising signs are still
a problem. Hopefully, we can get guidance on that from the council and the planning board. The traffic bolard advertising is still going on with many businesses in town where they're covering up the bolards
with advertising and that shouldn't be allowed. And then also, I know it's still not allowed in town, the 247 digital advertising signs, etc. if any new guidance will come forward from the planning board or the council.
And the last one, we need a possible zoning change. Very important. A possible zoning change for 409 Woodport Road, block 20004,
lot one, zone ED. That should be taken out of the ED zone somehow. And that was the site for the Elite and Truck and Tire Transfer Station. And if you remember, our planner Lindsay Knight even said they could put warehouse
there. They'd have to become before the board, but to go through it all where they come before this board for a warehouse or whatever or a small mini mall that's right at the beginning of the town. When you come into the town, we need something nice there. And I think the only way it's going to be
accomplished if it's taken out of that ED zone. That's my opinion. So hopefully the council and the planning board can guide us sooner than later. So, >> do I have a motion to accept the annual report and my recommendations to the council and board?
>> So moved. >> So moved. >> Second, please. >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> I. >> Thank you. >> We have a few resolutions to be memorialized tonight. First one is application 1025 Ella
properties which was decided on November 12th, 2025 for minor site plan and use variance approval. The chair will entertain a motion to memorialize it. >> So moved. >> Second, please. >> Second. >> Marissa, please call the role. >> Uh Richard Larua,
>> yes. >> Michael Leundi, >> yes. >> Richard Robacker, >> yes. >> Jennifer Paha, >> yes. >> Michael Steinberg, >> yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry. >> Yes. This next one is 11-25. Thomas and Katherine the order
decided on November 12th, 2025 for C variance relief. Chair will entertain a motion. >> So move. >> Second, please. >> Second. >> Marissa, please call the role. >> Richard Larua. >> Yes. >> Michael Leandondi.
>> Yes. >> Richard Roarbacker. >> Yes. >> Jennifer Panaha. >> Yes. >> Michael Steinberg. >> Yes. Chairman Ken Flurry. >> Yes. Next one is 12-25. Daniel Michelle Popup decided on November 12th, 2025 for
C variance relief. The chair will entertain a motion. >> So move. >> Second, please. >> Second. >> Marissa, please call the role. >> Richard Larua, >> yes. >> Michael Leandi, >> yes. >> Richard Roarbacker, >> yes. >> Jennifer Panaha, >> yes. >> Michael Steinberg, >> yes.
>> Chairman Kenflower, >> yes. And the last one is 13-25. Tracy Gent decided on November 12th, 2025 receive variance relief. The chair will entertain a motion. >> So moved. >> Second, please.
>> Second. >> Marissa, please call the role. >> Richard Larufa, >> yes. >> Michael Leondi, >> yes. >> Richard Roger, >> yes. >> Jennifer Panaha, >> yes. >> Michael Steinberg, >> yes. >> Chairman Kennar, >> yes. For the public, we have one
application tonight, application 7-2566 Woodport LLC, which was carried with additional notice to our meeting tonight, January 14, 2026, for D1 use variance relief since
billboards are not permitted in the TCCO zone. After the application is heard, I'll open the meeting to the public for comments and questions on issues that are not on the agenda tonight.
66 Woodport LLC, please come forward. Yeah. Ready. Nice. >> Good evening, chair. Mr. Chairman, board. Uh Todd Hooker with Askin and Hooker here on behalf of 66 Woodport LLC. Um we plan to be brief tonight. Uh
we're not going to introduce any new exhibits. Um but uh my client would like an opportunity to address some of the concerns that were raised by the board um at the last meeting. And we have a planner here just to um summarize the planning testimony to refresh your
recollection on the reasons that uh we believe we meet the positive and negative criteria and site suitability test and uh let you guys uh vote on our application. >> And then Mr. Hook, you know, the the process here. After you're done presenting your client's application,
we'll have our board professionals, David and Brian, present their reports. Then the board members who have questions will go next. And after we're finished, we'll open it to the public. And as you know, for the record, it's a Dvarian. You'll need five affirmative
votes to approve the variance since it's tied to the land in perpetuity. As you know, all that. >> Yes, sir. Understood. Please, >> you want to swear in the witness, Clint? >> Well, you were sworn in the last time, right? >> He was sworn in the last time. All right. >> And you remember I mean it was last
year, but you still remember. You got to tell the truth, right? >> Yes, sir. >> All right. Just identify yourself for the record, sir. >> My name is uh Richard Cron. I'm the president CEO of 66 Woodport LLC. >> You guys can sit if you want or whatever you want.
and uh please speak clearly and loudly into the microphone since it's a requirement you have a recording. >> Sure. Sure thing. There were the two areas I think that we really want to address and if there's others that you think we've overlooked, please let us know and we can address those as well.
One was the um um removal of the trees from the property. Think Mrs. Miss Paha raised that at the last hearing. Um and uh my client would like a chance to respond to that. So uh Mr. Mr. Cron, please, if you would explain to the board why the trees were removed.
>> Uh, when we first purchased the property, I contacted the insurance company and they pointed out that it was in the ash trees were infected and I had to remove the ash trees in order to be able to get insurance and the roof, which I did both. And I wanted to keep
the trees. That's one of the reasons I came to Sussex County. I love the trees, but it was not sustainable. that had to be removed for uh safety purposes. >> Any any questions regarding that? The uh the other the other issue I think
that we got a little um feedback on I think is the way to light way to say it was the um the the representative samples that were submitted to the board of what what might go up there. And I think there was some push back on the size maybe of the of the pictures and uh
I think we can address some of that concern for you tonight. Mr. Cron, what um um have you been able to uh um consider in term of the board's uh concern about uh the use of the of the um let me just re reiterate the the the
sign area on the bill on the on the the billboards sign um is 47.71 square feet of the the face. It's on exhibit A2 that was introduced last time. And uh so Mr. Centron's going to address that.
We're we're actually willing to reduce the size of the the picture and put the copy in the bottom. I think uh we're trying to come come up with a a reasonable formula that'll reduce the size yet be able to give the visibility to the business that we want and that
way we can make everyone happy. >> Uh Mr. Cron, would you be willing to uh uh represent to the board that you be, you know, reserve 20% of the of the sign for the copy? that says, you know, Anor, uh, located in Lake Mohawk Plaza and
then have the picture, you only take up, say, 80% of the sign instead of 100% of the sign. >> Yes, that sounds exactly right. That sounds right. >> That's all the testimony I have for Mr. Cron. If the board has questions, >> we'll have them after our board
professionals give their reports. Now, you have your planner, too, Mr. >> We do. And uh, uh, we can bring him up. His name's Christopher. Come on, Christopher. >> He was not here last time, Glenn. No. >> Okay. I didn't think so, but you know,
my memory is getting a little foggy. Chris, would you raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? The proceedings before the board tonight, God? >> I do. >> What's your name, Chris? >> Chris Brown. I'm a New Jersey licensed professional planner and a member of the American Institute of Certified Planners.
>> And Chris, by whom are you employed? the city of Hoboken. I'm actually freelancing tonight. I'm Matt. Nice to meet you live. >> Nice to meet you as well, Glenn. Mr. Kees, I should say. Um I'm I'm filling in for Matt Flynn. You could not be here tonight on behalf of John Mcdana
Associates. Um so I'm just I'm representing um previous testimony and providing what was provided to the board at that August meeting. >> Okay. So Mr. Brown, you've been doing this for a lot of years. Is that correct? >> I have a masters in urban planning from
of State University of New York at Buffalo. I've been practicing as a licensed New Jersey planner since uh 2008. >> Okay. And you regularly do this and you do it for the city of Hoboken which has many many interesting issues and keeps you very very busy. Is that correct?
>> That is correct. >> Uh I think the board should find him more than qualified. >> Yes. No questions from the board. Right. Okay. Chris. Chris, do you want to sit down instead of like hunching over for the microphone or what do you want to
do? I'll take a seat. So, thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank members of the board. So, tonight I'm purpose of my presence and being here tonight, I'm going to provide a summary of planning testimony that was given at the August 13th uh 2025 hearing uh on from Matt
Flynn of John Mcdana Associates. Uh the at that hearing exhibits were distributed showing the site and the surrounding area. The purpose of my testimony tonight is to simply summarize the planning conclusions that were represented at that hearing demonstrating that the standard for
relief has been met. Uh this although this is a class this is classified as a billboard, it's not a typical billboard. Testimony in August presented the case that this type of sign was not necessarily what the ordinance was seeking to avoid. uh which you
considering large billboards that you know are higher off the ground and advertising regional or national brands or services. Uh the billboard in question will not be rented out as was provided in testimony back in August. Uh it directly serves a nearby local
business Anori um and the Lake Mohawk Plaza generally. The site is located on block 2026 lot 3. It's located on the west side of Woodport Road on a triangle-shaped
properly property bound by Woodport Road, Stanh Hope Road, and Professional Quad. It's on a 25,000 It's approximately 25,000 square foot lot, which is about a half an acre. It's within the town center commercial office zone as uh Mr. Hooker represented
earlier. Uh the relief that was that is being sought is this is a D1 use variance as billboards are not permitted in the TC TCCO zone and also two C2C variances which we're looking for C2
variance relief for sign area and sign height for sign area 24 this is uh in within the zone uh sign area of 24 square ft is permitted whereas this application proposes sign area of 48 square ft but again this This is an
existing sign. It's it's this is what is currently on on on the on the on the on the property. Uh within sign height, 2 feet is permitted and what is proposed is something that's a little bit less than 9 ft. It's about 8.9 uh feet off
off off of off of grade which again is same as existing today. So the proofs that were provided at the August meeting um there were and and because this is a D1 use variance there's an enhanced burden of proof and
there was the site suitability a proof that was provided on the record and that relief relates to a distinct piece of property and the planning rationale that applies in this site would not apply to generally other sites necessarily. So,
the business being advertised is in Lake Mohawk Plaza, which is located west on Winona Parkway. However, the office for the store is actually headquartered on the site. And so, the sheer proximity of the business being advertised distinguishes this billboard from your
typical from the typical billboard that we would normally think of. And Woodport Road um has excellent excellent visibility from for for for people driving by in their vehicles. Uh excellent space for wayfinding. Um
anyone driving by driving by today looking for looking for the looking for the sign to to for the site visit very easy to find off the road. Uh there are other off-site signs in the area, namely those signs that direct traffic toward Lake Mohawk Plaza, which was provided in
the exhibit back in back in August. And as was pro provided in testimony back in August, this is a large spacious site. So the proposed sign does not overpower the site or results in in a crowded condition, which you all have looked at in exhibits that have been distributed.
So with requesting that D1 variance relief, there's the positive and the negative criteria. Going through the positive criteria, the criteria that was mentioned on the record in August spoke to the purposes of zoning which benefits of
the application per purposes set forth in the municipal land use law. Purpose A which is the promotion of the public health, safety and general welfare. The proposed signage promotes wayfinding for the convenience of the general public traveling through the area, not only for this specific business, but for the Lake
Mohawk Plaza in general. Purpose G, proving sufficient space in appropriate locations for a variety of uses. And again, there was significant testimony on site suitability. Uh, this is an appropriate loca. This is an appropriate location for this use as
it's off of a main thoroughfare and situated on a large enough property that the sign does not feel overwhelming. And then purpose I being a desirable visual or promoting a desirable visual environment. Again, this will be an aesthetic sign that's existing today and
has been in place for uh quite some time as was discussed in August. So the negative criteria um that statutory criteria that has to be reached for the granting of a variance no substantial detriment to with the is showing that
the per that the variance can be granted without with no substantial detriment to the public good or the zone plan or zoning ordinance. So the proposed sign is clearly not going to stand out in the public eye as a billboard in this case. Just because something is a variance does not mean that is inappropriate or
inappropriate automatically. Again, this is this is not the typical billboard and the distinct qualities that would not relate to and the the distinct qualities that wouldn't relate to the t that would not relate to the typical billboard speak to it not advertising a business
that has no affiliation with the immediate area. Again, this is promoting a business that is just west down Winona Plaza um or Parkway, I'm sorry. Uh and it's also just not the size of a typical billboard. resembles more of a
freestanding monument sign that you would one would see on on other on other properties. Uh so there is no internal illumination on the site on the for the billboard and because of the size it will not overpower the site or result in
a crowded condition. So again and it functions more like a directional or wavefinding sign just the way that it's currently currently situated and existing. So uh with the with regards to sign area and sign height, there is the C2
balancing test whereby the benefits of the application as a whole substantially outweigh any detriments. And that speaks to the positive criteria which was presented in testimony in August and just a few minutes ago with that AG and I um uh purposes of zoning. Again, the
same as the D1 variance, all relief is necessary to attain all the benefits associated with the use itself. And then regards to the negative criteria where again no substantial showing that no substantial detriment to the public good or the zone will be um
will be will be afflicted per the granting of the of the of the variance. Again the sign is existing. It's not being enlarged and it's already what's out there currently today at this moment in time and the proposed dimensions do not result in a sign that overpowers the
property. So with that, that concludes a summary of the testimony that was provided at that August meeting. >> All right. Thank you, Chris. Mr. Hook, you have any other testimony you like to present before we go to our professionals? >> I I don't ever have any testimony, Mr. Chairman, but
>> I do have a question. >> I I I will make a closing statement. You mean to do that now? You want to do it after the professionals go? >> But uh after, right? >> That's what I think. Yeah. Thank you, >> David. if you're so kind to present your report. >> Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. Chair and
the board members, I'll refer to the report that we prepared dated July 11th, 2025. Uh page one is basically a summary of the information that was submitted and comments on completeness. With regards to the second page with regards to the
zoning, as uh Mr. Hooker pointed out, it's in the TCCO zone. It's not a permitted use. A use variance is involved. Uh at the time this report was generated, the dimensions of the sign hadn't been provided. Uh this evening, Mr. Brown provided that information on
the area and the height. So we realize and understand that there's variances involved for that. Uh number four, with regards to the site plan, the one question I have is this existing sign registered with the DOT?
>> No, it was it's never been registered with the DOT. And do we know the distance from the rightway line to the sign? >> Yeah, that was in exhibit A3 at the last hearing, Mr. Simmons. It was uh there was a survey submitted exhibit A3 meet the township require I wasn't here
at that hearing. >> Oh. Um I have a copy if you want to see it. >> All right. Do you know what the dimension is or >> Not off the top of my head? No. >> Uh that's something to see if there is an additional variance involved in that is my point. Uh, with regards to the lighting as they
>> You mean the dimension of the sign? >> Pardon? >> The dimension of the sign. >> No, the distance from the rightway line to the sign set back. >> Oh, yeah. Um, let me just find A3. I'll give it to you. You can take a look. >> No problem. >> Uh, with regard >> Yeah. Hold on. Let me just find it that
way. That way we just cover it and we're done. >> Sorry. What's the setback time? Let me see if I can find it here. Mine is actually right right on the uh right away. >> Here's the here's the microphone, Mr.
Hooker. There. I'm just showing Mr. Simmons exhibit A3. >> Right away lighting the long. >> This is this is the sign here. I think >> it's actually in the rightway. >> Yeah, it's right in the rightway. >> Just just so the board knows this. I'm referring to exhibit A3 that Mr. Booker
just provided and that was a survey prepared by Minync surveying Charlie Worthington and based on this survey a portion of the sign 3.3 ft is actually in the right of way of route 181 a state highway so I believe a variance would be
required for that thank you we request that uh with regards to lighting uh as they indicated they're not proposing any internal lumin ation, which would have been an additional uh relief request.
I'm assuming it's going to continue to be ground mounted lighting directed at the sign. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Uh they haven't provided any landscaping around the sign as proposed right now. And with regards to complying with the
different township ordinances between the sign area that's proposed, the sign height and the encroachment into the DOT rightway. Those are the variances involved right now, I believe. And an environmental impact statement wasn't provided. That's just a point of
information for this application. Uh, as normal under miscellaneous, what our recommendation is is that there be a asbuilt plan prepared when everything's completed. The one concern I have is about DOT sign registration. Uh my
concern for the applicant is to make sure that they if the board were to approve this application that they don't expend dollars get a new sign and conform to the requirements of the board only to find out the DOT comes by and
wants the sign removed. Uh, the reason I bring that up, we did have in another municipality within the last couple weeks, I got a call where the for whatever reason the DOT was going around and they actually required some signs to be removed. So, normally you see a sign
like a registration number and my concern would be that they may have to relocate this sign outside of the DOT right away and in fact register it with the DOT. The other the other concern I I would just throw out for discussion
between the board and the applicant. Uh the sign is I heard some talk about uh proportioning the sign. Some of it just the copy that might relate to the White Deer Plaza and other parts of it being the the photo of the Anori clothing or
what have you. Um, I'm just wondering if the applicant would discuss with the board if they're going to have to perhaps move that sign to meet DOT requirements, maybe uh enhance the sign somewhat as opposed to just a
rectangular sign, put some u additional trim or uh some other sign pertinances on there just to make it blend in more with the White Deer Plaza in the Lake Mohawk area. I throw that out for discussion as opposed to just a picture
almost and I don't mean to put it in this vernacular but almost like it's the poster for the movie of the week if you will uh where it could be a little more pleasing to the overall neighborhood and everyone. And that's my report Mr. >> Thank you. Uh David Brian if you could
give the planners report. >> Uh yes, can you hear me? that we had issued a report that was updated to August of last year. And uh I will I'll pull points from our letter as well as
what we heard tonight. Okay. So, uh, you're here, uh, to grant a D1 variance for a sign that although is existing, that does not give it any
uh, planning uh, support because this sign is being reborn, so to speak, now as a D1 use, right? It to me, it's immaterial if it was there for a hundred years. whatever it may be right tonight.
It's a new D1 variance. Its existence is what the applicant is um implying that it's it's an existing um uh it's an existing non-permitted but uh allowed
use, right? That there at some point it was allowed, right? So, it is not an existing uh non-conforming use or legal non-conforming use. is not the case here. Just want to be clear on that because I heard the word existing 10 times right just now. So just want to be
careful that we're not saying that this is in addition to a a mart on the highway that does is not allowed in the zone. It's not the case here. This is brand new to the universe. Uh so just want to make be clear on that. So then what I heard tonight just
by way of the if you put the sign and if it remains in the rightway, the DOT has a um very um mature process, I'll call it, on allowing billboards to be within
their rightway or near their rightway. And if this is considered a billboard and it's on a state highway frontage, it has to go to the NJ DOT OAS process where you submit to the NJ DOT what you're
doing. And it doesn't matter whether it's a uh a sign that's the size of a sheet of plywood or if it's 50 times that, right? it still needs to go to the NJ dot at some point and I believe the u
the applicant teams knows that they may be familiar with it. Uh I've done it on the review side and on the private side it's not a long drawn out process. You show a a pin drop where you're going to do it. They'll evaluate it for safety,
consider the size of it, and then they can come back because the uh that that process is not completed until the local board reviews it. So, first you go to the AOS,
then you get almost like a conditional approval. They come to whatever board they need to do. Right now, they're at the zoning board for the D1US, and you take it from there. and then that sign can be installed. Right now that sign does not exist with respect to the DOT. They're
not aware of it. And because it's not like I can look up any billboard in New Jersey and look at their geographic information system and see if a sign is is um pre approved or preapproved or
pending. It's really a simple process and I don't know if the applicant is aware of that process but I think it would behoove them to just go on the website and see what the status is and see you know what the process is but be that as it may it is a D1 use variance.
Um the applicant has uh provided uh some proofs that it's uh near you know the site. We are not here to um we're here to help businesses, you know, in in
town. Absolutely. Right. So, it might be that the sign might have to shrink down to that 24 square foot size instead of the 48 square foot size that they have. And if they're doing image and location,
that might be a simpler process for them. get it out of the rightway and not go to the DOT. But I I cannot as a professional say they they don't have to go there. They do have to go there. And
it's unfortunate for the applicant. Uh but and then that process is they get a conditional approval. The DOT writes a little letter, they get a permit number. Uh it's not an owner's process, but it is a process. And uh then we can see
what happens after that. But I don't so like we're like and Glenn can correct me. You can get approvals locally and then say go to the superior or uh collinear I'll call it
authorities. But in this instance, the outdoor advertising sign process in New Jersey is DOT first, then the local board, then finish up with the DOT. It is a vetted process. So it's so it's not
like uh you know you may we may grant it and then go to the DOT and come back. Uh you know, so that's my understanding of the process in this particular type of situation. Uh there is a there is a way of doing that and I can go into the history of it if
you want. It's a Lady Berg Johnson wanted a highway beautifification in Texas and that's why we have uh a very mature process along the state highways uh for billboards. So that's where we're at. Uh you know
the D1 use variance that they're asking for it seems fairly reasonable. I think the sign by the time they're done uh putting new right now there's a the T111 plywood that makes the sign it's kind of
like a homemade sign. By the time you go through the process and the DOT says, "What's your wind load? What's this? What's that?" You're going to end up with a new sign anyway. So, there's a couple questions that we don't have answered. Uh that I, you know, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of DOT
permitting. Uh but, you know, the sign is in the rightway. you know, you and I don't know if the board can give waiverss for um uh you have to do a hold harmless to the NJ DOT or you know, and that's what the vetting process of is
for the billboard application, you know, that's that's where it's all figured out. It's not for this board to figure that out. U so it's not that we are um you know, like I I understand how hard it is to run a local business, right? But we wanted the sign approved in a
correct manner. And >> can I can I stop you for a second? I want to make sure I picked up something that I think you said and I want to make sure the board gets it. >> You gave basically two alternatives. The DOT go visit Trenton, have a wonderful
time or in the alternative shrink it down, pull it away and then it just becomes a jurisdiction of this board. >> Right? because the 24 square foot that's allowed uh eliminates the C variance, right? And
then they could they can then just pivot remove that sign and then pivot it back into the property and then there's no problem. >> All right. And they could actually ask for a dimminimous variance of an additional four square feet or six square feet or something. Get 30 and
that would take DOT out of play. May they may they rest in peace. Yes, I I believe that would need to be done. >> Okay. I just wanted to make sure the board heard that as another alternative for doing it. >> Thanks, Glenn. >> There there there is enough room on the property to move the sign out of the rightway.
>> Todd, I can't hear you. >> There there is enough room on the property to move the sign out of the rideway. And I think u um and I'm sorry I missed your name but >> in Tindola >> he wasn't here at the last meeting and that that sign has been historically used to advertise the businesses in that and it has been there 100 years or
longer however long it's been there but the uh at least as long as I've lived in Sparta which is since 1998. So but uh but when the um uh the the businesses wanted to use the alternative diner sign their businesses so there's an alternative sign on the site to
advertise their businesses. they didn't want to use that sign. So, the owner said, "Well, I I want to use it to advertise my business, which is here and in the lake." So, um that's why we're here. And uh he's willing to move it out of the rideway. I don't know that we need to I think I think there's plenty of room on the property just to move it.
>> Yeah, I think so. Along the uh the fence line there, I think you can you can uh slide it down a little bit and there'll be no problem. >> Indeed. And uh and get it out of the rideway. Um but and and the reason we we're here on this way is because it is a pre-existing assign. We didn't want to change the dimensions because, you know,
it's been it's been there forever. So, and if you have a pre-existing time, >> there's there's an issue though that's being raised and Dave certainly can wave in on it too, but it may be pre-existing now that you're looking for changes. I think the comments are absolutely spoton
for the law of signs. So, I I think the changes makes it a new application. So, so now what I'm hearing is We can figure out a way to do it right. Avoid anybody south of the Mason Dixon
line weighing in >> that route 80. >> Take jurisdiction and figure something out. And that's I think you're suggesting and I'm kind of curious as to whether Dave agrees with it. I think you're suggesting that really is in this
case a path of least resistance. And I would just emphasize some of the words that I think you used. I'm not trying to put them in your mouth, but you and I do this on many nights together. Uh I think he said this is something that is obviously helpful and there should be a
way of figuring stuff out. That was my words, not yours. You're much more articulate than me. >> I don't think so. But well, I'll take it. I'll take the compliment. Right. So like like right from you know the board is weighing uh the D1 use for variance is it is it going to injure your master
plan or does it help to promote a local business that's here in front of you you know and I am speaking the vernacular a sucker for a local business right I really you know so if we could find a way to do that that would be great >> and uh Brian I just had one question if
you can confirm what I think Chris you had mentioned it's really an offsite sign and not a typical billboard. Correct. >> You mean the way that it's presented as a freestanding monument? Yeah. The >> That's what you said. I just want to make sure. Not >> presents as one, but because it's
advertising a a a store off that's the reason why we're here for the D1 because it's it would be classified as a as a billboard per the ordinance >> because of the way that it functions. What do you think of it not being a typical billboard? Is
it a billboard yet or not? Not typical to me. Sounds like it's still a billboard, but not a typical billboard. >> Correct. It's not a steel mass billboard that goes up. >> Billboard is the bottom line, but not your big massive one you would be seeing. >> Unfortunately, definitions don't parse
the size, right? They don't they don't go down to size. talking about off-site signs, signs this, signs this, and the different calculations. It's still a billboard, but not your typical billboard. >> Correct. It's almost like a private billboard. >> And then if should the uh board uh look
favorably upon the application, >> I would say that if there's any resolution of approval, it stays specific to this site so that the billboard is not subleasased to other right. the site and to the use.
>> Yes. The site and to the use. >> And then if that does change >> billboard, correct? >> What's that? >> As a billboard. >> As a billboard, but specific to the um the retail establishment that's here before you tonight. Uh and then Glenn can expand that language because then it
may be that uh you know there's a new doughnut shop in town and they're like, "Hey, can I borrow your billboard for uh you know, a couple of months? So we want to try and avoid that because then that goes then you don't control the message as a board and you can
control a message now because then you run into freedom of speech issues with billboards if that's not addressed now and that's how many billboards are constructed. If a town does not have a location where billboards are permitted,
um, billboard developers know that and they will challenge you on a freedom of speech issue for the billboard location. So, we can put that uh aside for now. >> All right. >> Just one question just so it's out there because I think I understand the
chairman reasonably well because we've been together a long time. This really doesn't create a precedent for other people. Sparta is very rigid. >> Oh, I understand. >> Go across the state. Yes.
>> You won't find many municipalities that are as strict about signs. And if you ride around >> No, no, this. So, this is not presidential at all. This would be really, really unique >> to this >> instance if the board were to grant an approval. You know, one of the striking
features of Main Street is that the signage on on the the small monument signs, they look great. You know, they if you ride down the uh Maine and Woodport, they do look it's well well executed. >> Thank you, Glenn. David, do you remember
the last time billboard was approved in town? Because I know the ones you all see now, the grandfather, but do you remember the years? The one that comes to my mind is the one I believe the board entertained out on uh in Monroe on Route 94 for the
charter school. Uh wasn't exactly a billboard. It was an electronic electronic sign, but very very similar. I remember that one. Uh >> I was talking about the regular billboards that are not allowed in
>> Yeah. Most of the other billboards I recall >> have actually been removed, not not installed new. Yeah. If it it was on a particular piece of property as a condition of approval of a site plan, the board, either the planning board or
the zoning board perhaps asked for the sign to actually be removed because it may have outlived its life and usefulness. >> All right. Thank you, David. Marissa, you can call on the board members with questions and comments on the application, please. Michael Jacific. Uh,
>> no questions at this time. >> Richard Larua. >> Uh, yeah. Interesting conversation tonight. Uh, I have some thoughts positive. Uh, first of all, I'm a little disappointed that it's been 6 months and you hadn't
quite you hadn't resolved the DOT issue. I mean, that was brought up six months ago and that we're still where we were six months ago. It's a little disappointing, but very interesting. uh your uh your commentary on it. Is this
if the sign does not exist and we're starting from scratch and he wants to put up something that's not in the rightway that's within the confines of quote unquote the sign ordinance, maybe a little bigger or whatever, but it's for
a business that is headquartered here but has another entrance somewhere else. Is it different than somebody saying this is a nor business, a retail store is two blocks down the street. You go in entrance B. Is that a sign or is that a
billboard? I, you know, since we're, it sounds like we're starting from scratch. >> I think you are. >> And >> but I I would defer to certainly Brian. My question is is that if the establish is seeking the variance, if they have a
presence on the property that we're talking about, >> right, >> then it's just a sign it is not a billboard. So like the hypothetical is they rent a 100 square foot, put a desk and a computer there and do some bookkeeping, you could put the sign
there and it's not a building. >> Well, my understanding is that that is your that is a business headquarters for you. but that the retail store is in the plaza. >> I know. Right. So, in my mind, it would not be a billboard because if you read the NJ DOT language, it doesn't say
whether it's a retail premise or a premise for an office, right? Uh I've seen like manufacturers put billboards up >> along the turnpike because they have their headquarters there. One Bristol Myers comes to mind when you go past the National Guard coming up into New
Brunswick. There's a billboard there because they can put it because it's a sign because they have presence on the premise. So in that instance, it's strict interpretation of the DOT process. It would not be a billboard uh
in this instance because they do have presence. That's what I said at the last meeting. That was my position in August. >> I'm just reiterating what I heard. Better we hear it from him. >> I'm just aware that is that they have some presence on
premise and it is just is a sign. >> Sounds like we're starting it's also that the the lawn light is also in the right of way too. So I mean there's structure there. >> Not anymore. >> Not anymore. Okay. Um but those are my
just my thoughts. Okay. Michael Leondi, >> I um I I don't have anything else right now. Thanks, >> Richard Becker. >> Um I want to follow up on Mr. Larufa's
questions about is it a sign or a billboard? Uh, I think we pretty much decided it's a sign because of the business presence on the
property in question and that it advertises a facil a satellite facil facility the retail shops um for the business. Um,
my question is basically would we be doing anything beyond saying, "Oh, hey, we have a retail establishment
in the plaza." along with the fact that we have our business headquarters in this lo other location. Can >> you respond, Richard? >> There's no >> The initial purpose is strictly to
advertise my business and the location where we're located now at 66 Woodport. It will not be used for anything else other than my business. >> That's okay. in the past >> would it
in the future saying oh we have our end of season sale. >> No sir. No sir. >> Um >> no sir. >> In three years let's say >> that would never happen. No. >> Okay. It would only be we have a
business location in this other spot. >> Yes sir. That's strictly that's strictly >> Okay. All right. That's I was a little confused and I just needed it clarified. >> And the sign will not be lend out to anyone, rented to anyone. Is strictly
for clothing and for our use. >> Okay. Um, I do remember, I've been in town a while, uh, that a previous owner of the site
advertised all the had a listing of all the businesses that were in the offices on that
particular particular property and then they quit advertising them and now we want to add we want to change what the
>> correct that is correct >> okay all right u that's all I my questions at this point >> Jennifer Paha Um, you have a couple questions. Trying to
make this work and but trying to fit it in with this back and forth with the DOT. I mean, if you say that the DOT would then approve a sign because it's on site because there's the property is
on site. I thought we were just >> gentlemen, can you speak a little louder into the microphone, please? >> Uh, I thought we were just actually making an argument for moving the sign and it's a brand new sign and it's not a DOT
sign. So, none of that really applies. So, the whole argument about whether or not you put a sign in for a business that's in the plaza because you have a chair and a computer up there and that's your headquarters would seem to me like it would fall to a local ordinance. But because again, we
just have to think about precedent. What happens when the next person wants to do this? And what happens in the town when the next person says, "I'm going to get a little virtual office over here so that I can advertise my business." I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just saying I'm trying to think through the
ramifications because, you know, we have to base this on precedent. So, I I'm just running through that and bringing that up in case anybody has any other questions because it's not about DOT, it's about local. The second thing that
I have is, you know, the original sign there, and we've talked about this before, the original sign there was to advertise the businesses that were there. There was little, it was, it really wasn't a sign, a big sign. It was a combination of little placards that had an engineering shop and all that kind of stuff. So, it there's not
another shot. There's not another sign that you have. Is there one on Stanh Hope? So, that's where the other folks can have a little room, but this one's got more visibility. And so, you're going to be able to take advantage of that for yours. >> Got it. stand open. There's the diner. >> Okay. Okay. >> There's businesses under the diner.
>> The other thing that I'd love to see in that spot is, you know, we talk about it um being um not having any negative. You know, you were talking about as a planner it not having any negative. To me, the negative part there is that that's just a very
sensitive spot. It's a fiveway intersection. If you're looking at the the um egress from the Chima gas station and we all know there's quite a few accidents that happen right at the top of Winona because it's kind of a squirly
little intersection there. And in terms of aesthetics, we've got the the the beautiful, you know, architectural sign welcoming you to Lake Mohawk. And I guess Coldwell Banker got, you know, in on that aundred years ago, so they've got their pretty little sign there, you
know. So, I just sometimes wonder, is there is there some way we could get this? Okay, it's going to be a brand new sign. You know, could we get it to a point where it's a little bit more in line with the aesthetics of the town
versus, you know, a a photograph? I mean, I I know that because you have such a nice shop with your It's nice to show that off. I'm just trying to figure out how could we make this work because it could be distracting, right? And it's it's right there at that intersection. And
you know, I'm just trying to think, is that is that posing more distraction at the top of that intersection? It's down a steep hill around a corner, five people coming together. Is that what we want right there? Is that going to work? So, um, observations,
uh, any comments that you have, you know, let me know. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that work. It just seems like a photo and making it super large is quite distracting and different than what we have anywhere else in town. >> I think Mr. Cron did testify. He's
willing to make the photo smaller. Um Yeah. But the the idea is he's here to get the approval for the to be able to to show the clothes and and the location of the shop. >> Exactly. Yep. So, >> we'll have to weigh that. So, um, that's
that's my comments. >> Michael Steyberg, >> I was going to say by the time you guys get to me, all the questions have been asked already that I had written down here. But, uh, a couple couple points of clarification for me, just so I'm clear on this one. So, um, you guys did mention that you would shrink it down
from the 47 ft. >> Well, the the the sign would still be well, the sign area could still be its existing 47.7 square feet. What we would do is make the picture smaller um in the sign area and have more bigger text. So saying, you know, Norway clothing would
be bigger and then located in Lake Mohawk Plaza and then and then the picture wouldn't fill in that area where the text is. So the picture would be smaller. >> Okay, got it. Clear on that one. Um and then uh to David's previous point on gussying it up slightly um to make it I
guess a little bit more uh Lake Mohawkish or uh deer, you know, White Deer Plaza-ish. I'll let Mr. Centron answer that. Are you opposed to gussying up your sign? >> Okay. As as as as to the actual structure of the sign, uh that was here
long before me. So, I wanted to maintain the integrity of the spot and basically just add to it to advertise our store. Now, I'm willing to shrink it down. It's going to be done tastefully. It's nothing ostentatious. It's uh >> it's it's clean, simple advertising the
location. Nothing over the top. I don't think I think you'll all be very happy with it. >> I'm a little confused, though. Basically, if I understood everything, especially what Brian was saying, the existing sign is kaput. It's it's in its last day. So,
you're either going to have to pick it up and move it or come up with something like you were suggesting. Uh because it it's not staying because of all the stuff Brian raised. Yeah, it it can be moved. There is room on the property to move it,
>> right? I guess what I guess what's being >> I guess the question would then become is that the sign you truly want or could it >> be could you do something? >> The answer is >> get a little more spiffy. >> The answer is yes, but we would like to do uh do uh maybe work with uh the
engineer after the approval to to get to get that done. We don't want to have to come back here to get another app uh you know to with more design drawings or something like that. But the answer is yes. We we could he's willing to do what what needs to be done to get the sign approved. >> May I say something? >> Yeah.
>> Basically with with all the properties that I purchased whether it was 21 White Deer Plaza, which when I purchased it, I renovated completely. What I my intentions were to maintain the historical integrity of the building, not change anything other than color and
obviously new material. When I purchased those properties from the bank, they were run down. my goal because everybody wanted to knock it down and put something else. I wanted to keep it looking like Sparta. I wanted to bring it back to its glory days. And that's
exactly what I like to do with the sign. If it's not broke, why fix it in my in my eyes? If I could keep that sign, make it work with everyone, keep the integrity, the look of what makes Sparta Sparta because that's a key point. When you get to that corner,
everyone that lives in this town knows that that property. Some people might not like the the fact that the trees are gone, but it looks a lot better. I plan to improve it even more. If I need to put a little bit more embellishment on the side to make it more look like, I'll do that. But to be quite honest with
you, I would love to be able to keep it looking like Sparta. It's been there before I was born and hopefully long after I'm gone. >> Okay, totally fair on that one. Um only other uh quick question which I think was kind of getting brought up here a little bit about you know with uh Glenn
and um you know the the engineer here around how do we tie this off between your business that's currently sitting there as well as your store that is on on you know um White Deer Plaza over there and how do we make that happen? Right? Because let's just say
theoretically you decide to move your headquarters, move your business off of that one particular plot of land. How does that then tie off to what is capable to be put on that billboard for future uses, future iterations a hundred years from now when you know people are looking back at these you know um
sessions and saying okay well it's tied to this particular piece of property now Burger King owns it right so Burger King sign goes up there how do we keep this >> we can do that we the answer is we can do that through the resolution with conditions and Brian and David I can draft something Brian and David can say >> beautiful
>> no you didn't do enough we want Can I add this or this? We we can figure that out on conditions. This does not need to have any, as far as I'm concerned, subject to you guys. I don't think this has to have any presidential
value of any kind whatsoever. It's a unique situation. We call it out as unique and that I think takes care of your concerns. >> Beautiful. That's it for me. Thank you, >> Chairman Kenneth Lowry. I >> just uh one or two comments. Why do we
keep talking about this as a sign and not a typical billboard? As Chris you had mentioned, bottom line, it's a billboard, correct? But not typical. >> It's not a sign. >> So, so >> it's been debiled. Yes. because they
have presence on the premise that in a do in a DOT process you have to get a billboard if you don't have uh presence on the premise in this
instance there is presence on the premise it's the office right so that for that deb billboards it and turns it into a a sign variance really like in terms of size on the like say the 10%
overage would take you to a board. So that's why it's debilitated because they have an office and presence on that site. So you could say like you could see like it could be the suit of the month. I'm not saying that's what it is but on the bottom placard it could be
office at this location retail location around the corner. That's that makes it not a billboard. >> You're saying it's not a billboard the way they're going to move forward and correct it.
>> Correct. Because it's come now I understand that they do have a back office or whatever you want to call it on the property where this the sign's going to go. That changes everything for me. I at the last meeting I did raise I didn't think it was a DOT regulated
billboard because it's not there was a there's presence on the property. I didn't realize it made it not a billboard at all. But I think I like that even better. Don't even need a D1 variance than >> you know you have to >> I think you got to just let him go >> right. I think you know you got to be I I try to present it you know evenly
across the board and if you you know I don't know how many people you have on site you know it's enough to say and I'll take it at your word. That's that's what's happening. And that and I can envision the sign. It's not for me to design it. Uh uh you know, office at
this location, uh retail around the corner, and then whatever upper part of the sign that you want to change, you can. So, to me, it's funny. I just got a movie poster for my son uh for Christmas. This the movie posters that
they change out. I think that's kind of what you want to do, but I think the board doesn't want it to be that um >> commercial >> that commercial. You know, somehow you you know, you I believe you have a a
style that you can figure out how to do that and you can take it from there. >> All right. Thank you, Brian. I'll now open the hearing to the public. If anyone's in the public, come forward with questions and testimony on this application.
Hi, I'm doing >> still live in Northshore. I actually grew up with your wife. We went all through from Brown and Pope John with your wife and brother-in-law and everything. But um anyway, I digress >> to swear her in. >> It sounds like she's not asking
questions. So have to raise your right hand. >> You swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth of proceedings before the board tonight. You got >> I do. Go ahead. >> Hey Betty, just keep your voice up a little bit or Dave, can you lower the mic? >> I'm short. I'm sorry. Don't apologize for that. Apologize for the fact that
the mic is set up for >> for average people and I'm not. Thank you. >> Oh, this is perfect. I'm sorry. Um, I do have a couple of questions actually and I don't have the background that you guys have, but regarding the DOT thing,
if we're the sign is moving out of the rightway, does that mean that the sign now becomes a billboard based on Sparta definition? And is that kind of put point us back to it's a billboard
not a sign. If it stays within if you guys don't move it and I think you're what 10 feet over >> something like what like a minuscule amount comparatively speaking does that then does the rule where it says it has to be if it's in a rightway that it has
to be a state road with a speed limit of 55 or higher or within 50 ft of it. So, I'm just curious as to if we move it, if the sign is moved, which I'm all for. I'm, you know, I'm a big supporter of small businesses, but if it's not in the rightway, does it go to a sparted
definition of a billboard? If it stays in the spar in the DOT rightway, then are we looking at like the posted speed limit of 55 or above and or within the guidelines there? The other question I >> Let's do one at a time.
>> Okay. I'm sorry. I'm so used to town council and like like >> we want to keep it moving but stop. You want to answer that? >> So, uh, as I understand the application now, as we've had the discourse with the applicant and the board, it is not an NJ DOT billboard anymore.
>> Okay. So, then are we looking at the Sparta definition of a billboard then versus a sign since it's not a DOT thing? No. >> So, now what >> kind of what Jen was referring to with is it a billboard in Sparta and stuff. I think if I understood what you were saying
>> it is not uh if the underlying definition is that it's an off- premise advertisement. >> Okay. >> It is not because they have premise the premises they have an office there. Right. So >> my next question is um I thought I read
and it may be a state thing or a Sparta thing that it and it may be more of a billboard definition if it's with can it be within 500 ft of a residence? Does that are there any stipulations to being by residence? Because there's a big blue. >> No, it's not even.
>> Okay. My >> signs are all over >> in everyone in everyone's business. >> Like I know when um where I am that can only be like the little advertising as long as like a contractor is working otherwise you can't have >> we we're reducing the size of it. So it's we're getting that direction.
>> My I guess my last question would be is it a distraction? Because I know that there are businesses that were told they cannot have phone numbers on their signs like coming down if you take the first exit for Sparta and go down Woodport like there was a business up by where
Sparta cobbler used to be that was told they can't put the phone number on their sign because it would have been a distraction. Is there a way that it can be done without the picture of the clothing so that it's hey, you know, location, you know, retail site down the
down the hill or something like that? Because my concern is I drive through there all the time. Is a picture with color and pretty and everything going to be a distraction for the drivers. >> You can answer. >> It was not my intention to put the telephone number there because I think
the telephone number would would be more of an Right. That was just an example cuz I know stuff has been like company, businesses have been told no phone number because it's a distraction. I know their signs got rearranged and redone because of phone numbers and other potential distractions. >> No, I was not planning to put a
telephone number there, >> but with the this this might be more of a question for the board then. If a picture is up there, is that going to be a distraction for the drivers in a chaotic intersection? Can that would that be a factor into and
again I'm a big proponent of all the small businesses is there a way that the picture can be in but still >> you have you have a response to that at all but >> unfortunately I do okay so >> and I'm not trying to be difficult you guys are >> so uh when I do um bus shelter
applications along uh municipal roads in the uh bus shelter application with uh New Jersey Transit um they provide the bus shelter we provide concrete slab and the rightway for it. But they do do the
uh insert advertisements which is part of it uh for revenue to uh provide for maintenance of the sign. And uh you know there's all kinds of advertising in those advertising inserts for bus shelters and it's almost
the analogous location of what we're looking at right now. And in my professional life, I know that you can put signs or advertising that and there are pictures of people drinking soda or whatever or like you know whatever advertisement there are. So I don't
think there is a correlation uh for distracted drivers if you were to have an image of someone wearing a suit just based on rule of thumb or heristic uh you know knowledge that I have that it's done. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> And then are we opening ourselves up regarding Plaza spec? Actually, two questions. I'm sorry. Is that property considered still part of Lake Mohawk? Because I know some properties on Stanhop are part of Lake Mohawk. And if it's part of Lake Mohawk, will we then
have to Okay, good. Then you don't have to worry about like Lake Mohawk approval for your sign, which makes it easier. And then are we opening up the door for backlash with Crows and the others store other? >> No. Okay, good. I'm done. >> Thank you, Beth. Anyone else in the
public, please come forward. >> Hi, Jenny Derek. Tap into Desparta. >> Mr. Kings, >> you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and proceedings before the board tonight. So, if you got >> I do. Thank you. >> Um, so I'm a little bit confused. What
are we what are what is the board actually approving at this point? And at what point does an application become a new application if there's a substantial change? >> There's not substantial changes. This is an ongoing process. We have talked about this. We have talked about where it has
to come. We have talked about the other approvals that Brian brought in. This is >> you're moving it and you're changing the size. Does the board have a the >> typical sign application that I've been doing for 40 years? >> It used to be a Dvariance. Now you're saying it's not a Dvarian.
>> We didn't say that. We didn't say anything like that. We said it's going to be moved. I don't know whether it's going to still wind up as a Dvariance or not. The board is going to have to figure that out. But it is not a new application. >> Well, that's part of my question is what is this? Is it a D variance? Two C
variances. >> The board has to hear all the testimony and the board will figure that out. >> Okay. I thought the board had heard the testimony. >> The board has to figure it out. It hasn't had a chance to discuss anything yet. So is the agreement that you're
discussing a sign that will be move is it your understanding that what the board is going to be discussing further is a sign that is going to be moved and made smaller and if that's the case can there be conditions sufficient that if
Mr. if Mr. Cron decides to change or move or take his office out of that facility that that sign then can no longer advertise a business in the plaza. >> The answer is yes because it will not run with the land. It'll run with the use. >> That's why I'm asking if it's a
devariance because my understanding of a devariance is that it does run with the land. Thank you. >> That's that's half that's half the case, but that's there's another half of it, too. All >> right. Thank you, Jenny. Uh, see no one else in the public have any questions or comments. It's now
closed to the public and back to the board for any other questions or comments before I make a motion to approve the application. >> Mr. Chairman, if if I may, I think if the application goes the way of moving
the existing sign to a new sign and it's entirely outside of the rightway, I think there just for the board's consideration, I think there might also be another variance involved, the setback to the sign depending on where they put it on the property. I don't think they've got that decided and
worked out tonight, but off the top of my head, and I'd stand corrected on this, I think the normal offset from the property line to the sign is 25 ft. And I doubt if they're going to go that far. So, the board may want to consider some craft in the resolution to grant a
variance, worst case scenario, of zero feet if they just move it literally. >> Variance of zero feet, Dave. >> Yes. And if they get something more than that, then that's all to the good. That'd be my suggestion. >> Thank you, David.
>> Any other questions or comments? >> Why don't we just hold it over until we see what we're actually >> going to be voting on? >> Yeah. >> I I I mean, >> the whole question can get rid of DOT. We're done with DOT. That's that's a big issue. >> I think we should hear from the applicant what what they would like to
proceed with. >> Okay. Right. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if you guys heard that, but I'd love to hear from from you all how you want to move forward here. >> Yeah. Um I I think the the answer the answer is we'd like to we we agree with Mr. Simmons that the sign will be moved out of the rightway and uh to the extent
that a variance is needed um from a setback from the rightway, we would request that. >> Yeah, I think we've made really good progress and we have a line of sight on how it can be done, but I it's a lot of detail that's we don't have now, right?
because it's now you you have more information. >> I think the only uh I think we have all the detail. I'm confused if we don't. We're gonna move the existing sign over out of the rideway >> and u >> far and so you're saying zero feet and then
>> it's it's it needs to be moved three feet in >> sign and you know so as long as I mean if you want to keep pushing forward we can but there you know there's just a lot of information >> we're happy to that's what we're here for to answer questions and get the information out. We're going to move the
sign 3 feet 3 in and then request a variance uh of zero feet uh from the rightway. >> Tend to agree with Jennifer a little bit. I personally I want this to go well for you guys. I I want it I want a favorable outcome and I think the more information
we have here, i.e. perhaps a just a site plan with the new proposed location, the new size, if you're going to reuse the sign or just modify it, a little bit more detail about the character of what it's going to look like as reconciled with White Deer Plaza probably has a
better chance of some affirmative votes, especially if we're talking about a use variance, which which needs almost a unanimous uh you know, feeling. Um, I don't want to say no co go and come back and um quote unquote waste your time, but I would I would hate to see a vote
go the other way because we're trying to rush a little bit. Um, just something to take into consideration. >> Thank you, Mike. I agree with you 100% on that and hopefully the applicant takes it to heart. >> Could we get some specific direction on exactly what you guys want to hear next time so we can be prepared? We want to
see what sign you want to put where on the property that's not in the DOT and it requires no DOT involvement. >> Okay. Uh in in terms of doing that, I mean, I think the um the idea would be, you know, we A3 is just going to show the sign where it's located right now.
It's going to be moved over 3.3 feet 3 in. And in terms of uh um are you saying you want to see what Mr. Cron's going to do to spruce up the sign? Yes. >> I see. Okay. So, um >> knows me well enough that I I really try
and cut to the chase. So, the answer is yes. That's what they want to see. They want to see what it's actually going to look like. If you're going to spruce up the columns or something like like everybody talked about, just show that. And if you have a >> this is kind of like a this is kind of almost to the point of being a final
site plan approval where you come in with the final asbuilt design as David affectionately always calls it and the board sees it. They kick its tires and they say that's just the thing we're looking for. They say no you missed it a little >> and it defines the variance that we're proving. >> Exactly.
>> It it'll be easier for all of us I think. um not not trying to pose any undue burden, but I think if you have a plan that you know actually outlines the the new location, >> there's no ambiguity. Everybody says yes, this is exactly what we approved. >> Um
you agree with uh do you agree to that, Mr. Hooker? Then we can potentially set up another date to carry. >> Yes. What what date would be potentially we meet the 2nd February this um >> it's February 11th.
>> February 11th. Would that be agreeable? Let me just uh check real quick here. >> Yes, February 11th is agreeable. And I we don't need additional planning testimony at that hearing. Correct. >> I was just going to deal with that. Just Mr. Brown has lots of things to do down
in the city. So, I don't think that there's any need, unless I'm missing something, board members, I don't think there's any need for Mr. Brown to come back because I think he's put the testimony on, you heard it before. I don't think it's so much planning
testimony now as much as it's final design testimony to see if you all are happy >> with what it is. >> Yes. Okay. >> Yep. February 11th, we'll be >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. We don't need to notice again, right? We're
carried no no notice. >> The answer is for the record, the applications being carried to February 11th. No further public notice being required. I don't remember uh when this was deemed complete. Where are we in the process?
>> August, >> August, September, October, November. >> Would you give us an extension through the next regular scheduled hearing? >> Yes. >> Rain, snow, sleet, or pestilence? All right. So, if we don't have it in February, you'll >> Great. Thank you, T.
>> All right. Thank you. Anyone else in the public have any questions or comments on different issues that were not on the agenda tonight? >> Or you >> Jenny? >> Yes. Um, I was just respectfully requesting that
possibly you could follow the same process that the planning board does in allowing the uh documents that are following the application to be included in view for the public. So, um, when you
go to the agenda for a planning board, there is the whole Google Drive that has all of the documents, Mr. Simmons testimony and um the planner's testimony and so on and so on. Uh or letters I should say for this for this particular application. >> No. Any
>> yeah I well yeah >> Mr. Lowry I thought was saying asking for comments for any >> we uh we uh we did we did do it but I didn't do it for this one because it was already posted on Google Chrome. Uh okay for the first testimony when they first were the hearing in August. So it's it is uploaded on the
>> Okay. I'm sorry I didn't I didn't find it but I appreciate that. And then you meant you approved a an annual review and that will be available as well. >> I guess it will, right? >> I could I'll put out on on the Google Chrome. Terrific. Thank you. >> I could probably turn a computer on,
Jenny, so she >> welcome. >> All right. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you, gentlemen. >> Good night. >> Someone's glasses are on the >> table. Hey, Richard. >> When are you going to be able to get this in, >> Richard? >> There's your glasses. I believe
>> these old ones. That's what I'm going to ask my clients. >> Yeah. Because I think how much time >> better if you reviewed it rather than your partner in crime since you've sat through this. So when would you guys need it before the next hearing?
>> I'm pretty flexible. The issues are at hand. So and if the applicant and the board want to present it as an exhibit the night of, I don't need the 10 days prior myself. So, it's really whatever the board's comfortable with, we can abide by and re-review it by that time.
I don't want to hold up the process. >> All right. Thank you. >> Didn't want to jam you up though either. >> We That's what we do, right? >> Get it in as fast as possible. >> But not not in here to just 10 days. It's a a bylaw at the board.
>> But we're pretty flexible. When you get it done, just get it to us. >> Foundation. >> I'm not going to say I got it too late. Put it that way. They're gonna >> they could say they got it too late, but I'm not gonna say that. >> All right. Good night. >> Thanks. >> Board will then entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> So moved. >> Second, please.
>> All in favor? >> I. >> Thank you. We're ajourned. >> Always interesting, right? >> That was interesting. I feel I was very kind because they weren't