Thank you. >> Um, okay. Good evening everyone. Um, welcome to the Township of Springfield's Board of Adjustment meeting, um, November 10th. The time is 6:09. Adequate notice of the meeting was given in accordance with the Sunshine Law.
notice was published on October 23rd, 2025 in the local source, which is one of the official newspapers for the township of Springfield um for the year 2025. It was also posted in the annex building on October 25th, 2025. Can we please stand to salute the flag?
>> Nation. >> May we please have the roll call? Thank you. >> Mr. Steven Hawkstein here. >> Mr. Michael Wex here. >> Mr. Steven Gersbound, >> Miss Marlin Aaran >> here, >> Mr. Peter Sheitz >> here, >> Missa Dodson
>> here, >> Mr. Randy Pearlman >> here, >> Vice Chair Mark Cunningham >> and Chairwoman Jody >> here. >> Thank you. Um, all right. First order of business is two resolutions we have to memorialize. The first is for
application 202514, which was an amendment. This is for um 564 Ashwood Road, block 251, lot 18. Has everyone had an opportunity to review the resolution? Are there any questions or comments?
If there are none, is there a motion to approve? >> I'll move second. >> Mr. >> Yes. >> Mr. Wex, >> yes. >> Uh Dodson, >> yes. >> Mr. >> Yes. >> And yes.
Thank you. The next application, the next resolution on foralization is for application 2025-90 Adams Terrace block 30001 lot 2. Has everyone had an opportunity to review the resolutions? Are there any questions or comments?
If there are none, is there a motion to approve? >> I'll make a motion. >> Second. >> Thank you. >> Mr. Mr. Yes, >> Mr. >> Yes, >> take that back.
>> Yes, >> Mr. >> Yes, >> yes. >> Thank you. Okay, we'll move on to the applications. Um, >> yes, >> Mr. Hen for application 2025-IT and Share Alliance 37 Church Mall, block 207, lot 23. I thought we carried this
in October. >> This This was last heard at the September 16th meeting. It was carried to tonight's meeting and the applicant has asked that it be adjourned again until the uh December 17th meeting.
>> Excellent. Okay. So, the December 17th meeting will take place here. >> Okay, great. We need a motion. >> Yes. >> To carry. >> Is there a motion to carry? Application 20258. Thanks.
>> Second. speech to it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Just for the public, if there's anyone here on the matter of share alliance
application 2020 5-18 as it's been carried to the September 17th meeting there will I'm sorry December 17th meeting there'll be no further public notice. Thank you chair. >> Thank you.
Okay. >> Okay. Uh application 2025-15 147 New Lane block 30001 lot 23. This was a request for lot coverage variance to install a patio.
This came before us before and the applicant is back. We asked for some additional information. and you may come on up, Mr. Schwarz. >> Hello everybody again. How are you? >> Mr. Schwarz, if I could, I'd like to swear you in raise your right hand. Do
you swear or affirm to tell the truth? >> Please state your name, spell your last name, and give your home address. >> Steven Schwarz, S WZ. Home address is 147 New. >> Thank you. >> Okay. for the benefit of the board. Um
why don't you just take a minute to refresh our recollection as to what you're looking to do or >> have done and get approved. >> Sure. So the basis around the argument um is that um the town engineer believes
that with a 100red-year storm, and correct me if I'm wrong in my language, please, Michael. uh in a 100redyear storm that um I will be causing flooding or disruption, water flooding in the street and my neighbors properties with what I've
installed on my my property. So I I first got my first engineer's opinion letter who analyzed everything did his own topo a topography walked the site um paid him for his services and gave an opinion letter that he sees that this
would anyway the opinion letter I think you have it in your possession from last time based upon our evaluation of the property and the minor increase in imperous surface we do not feel that there will be any noticeable increase in runoff to the surrounding properties It was this letter and all of the
impervious coverage ratios and analysis that he did for uh for his paid services were not accepted by uh the town engineer. So I went so we had this we were here last time and everybody here on the board relied on Michael Disco's
opinion. Michael rejected it. So everybody rejected it last time. So I went above and beyond and I went to hire a survey company to provide a topography of the property understanding that there are only maybe one property that has a
lower elevation or two properties that are have a lower elevation um than my property um that you know surrounding my property. Excuse me. Showing that the elevation of the patio that I installed is lower elevation than most of the
surrounding properties. So, I should really be concerned of my neighbors water runoff into my patio or into my property, understanding that my backyard is a lower elevation. The water is not just gravity is not pushing the water uphill. Um, and especially in a
100redyear storm. So, I went and got this signed by all of my surrounding property and all my neighbors because this this patio was not installed this year. Wasn't installed last month. It was installed in 2022. We've had a lot of rain since 2022. We the undersigned neighbors undersigned neighbors whose
property is a join or are close proximity to the property. >> I'm sorry m Mr. Schwarz if this is a handwritten statement >> signed by my neighbors. >> It is not admissible. >> Why not? >> They have to be here to testify. It's
not subject to crossexamination. It is it is not >> Well, I s I swore under oath that I'm uh that I'm here to tell the truth. They are signed this, >> but they're not here to say that they signed it to be cross-examined as to
their opinion and why. >> Okay. So, do you want me to get this resigned and notorized? >> No, they need to be here to testify. >> Okay. Well, outside of that, they signed it. Okay. And that means there is no flooding on any of their properties from
a patio that I installed since 2022. Um, understanding that A lot of a a lot of this is based upon the opinion of Michael Disco. And understanding that opinion, who's to say that all of my surrounding neighbors are
not percolating their uh their lawn the right way? Whereas, if you percolate the lawn once a year that it's going to be a pvious uh uh uh uh earth, excuse me, soil um where it's actually
going to be able to take in the water from a rain or a 100red-year storm. So, there's no analyzing that any of our neighbors, whether it's my house or the surrounding houses on any block or any of the streets that any of us all live on, that anyone is properly percolating
the their uh their lawn whereas it their lawn is going to be pvious in a hundredyear storm. Um like pools. I know pools are considered impervious. Um but I witnessed two of my neighbors pools overflood this summer. We had a crazy
storm. They sent me pictures of their pools overflowing into their own lawn and their neighbors properties. But we still consider it an impervious uh um addition to the home. I sat here last time when I got rejected just to
hear what was going on and everybody here approved an impervious pool. There were two pools that were in design and one of the pools were almost the whole size of the backyard. >> Okay. But isn't aren't we here because
you essentially saw the patio that increased the impervious coverage on your property and did no mitigation efforts to decrease the runoff? >> I did. >> Is that >> I would uh uh that is not No. I did a one the patio was installed without
municipal purview and then also the front porch work was done without getting the variance. I I did water runoff for the back patio, a 1 foot by 18 inch uh riverstone um uh water capture uh outside the
patio. And >> is that is that appropriate and satisfactory to the township for mitigation efforts? I >> I imagine no. I don't have any calculations to support that. >> Got it.
>> Nobody's ever inspected it. I don't have dimensions here as we speak and I would just like to say right it's not my opinion >> right >> it is a fact that the patio was done without permits it is a fact the front porch was done without permits of Harry
it is a fact that ordinance 3521 reads and I'll share with the board no land area shall be developed by any person such that the rate of storm water runoff occurring at the area is increased over what occurs occurs there under existing
conditions. Nobody on this planet can say that that has been met. Second, drainage design shall be in accordance with accepted engineering practices for the sizing of drainage structures. All calculations shall be submitted to the
township engineer for review. There's been none of that. >> Correct. >> That's what the board asked for the last time Mr. Schwarz was here. >> There there was. Here's the calculation. It was submitted to you. Why are you saying there's none of that? There was something submitted to you.
>> What drainage design was submitted? >> PP-1. >> I understand. >> Saying something was submitted. >> Okay, let's just because we're not getting anywhere. Just to confirm we're and I think Jody, this is where I'm looking at. It's the front yard setback
was where he needs a variance >> and then the lot coverage required was 27 and he's and the proposes 375. >> Correct. >> Those are our two areas of effort. That's what needs to be addressed and that's it. Right. >> Yes. >> Okay.
>> So, >> I'm sorry. >> I wanted to make sure we're on the right. >> On this sheet, it says 37.5% Somebody said >> yeah propos is 37.5 on this engineers analysis
>> and right now it's at 31.7 >> right >> and after 27 you're required to have a variance >> so I filed for a variance and that's for here >> okay
>> so the lock coverage was affected because of the front yard and also the patio. >> I'm asking. >> Yes. >> I don't know who's answering. Okay. Okay. Okay. At least I got clarity.
>> Right. And then if you look further down, the impervious cover has increased by 766 square feet as a result of the patio and the steps. Correct.
>> Okay. Which requires some form of mitigation >> for the runoff which has not been reviewed or approved by the town engineer >> which is not approved by the town which was integrated but not approved by the town engineer. Correct.
>> Which means it's no >> but then I have signed. >> Don't worry about the >> Sure. >> Okay. So the plan of action is you need to do something to handle the water mitigation. >> That's right. End of story. Forget signatures, conversation, anger.
The answer is you need something to handle the water mitigation. >> But I have engineers saying it's >> oh my god. But sir, that this is the rule. Like it doesn't work like that. >> Like we and you say we take their his opinion. No, it's a fact. He's saying it
and we need to follow along because that is the rule, >> right? He's now given us a calculation and we know based on this calculation that there is mitigation required because of the runoff >> as a result of the runoff from the increase in impervious coverage
>> understood but I have opinions from an engineer and I've reached out to two other engineers showing the topography and they said this is a waste of time so what am I supposed to do so just follow uh the engineers like
recommendation of putting in a giant dry well the size of a swimming pool underneath my front lawn when my lawn is like when my hill to the street is like this and the water runs off off the grass directly into the street anyway
>> you understand what's going on here the magnitude of what Michael is asking me to install versus what's happening or not happening is you know it's a little bit absurd And I review this with engineers and I
go over it. I even got the topography because an engineer said, "I'm not giving you any opinion till I get the topography." I show him the topography. He goes, "It's a waste of time." >> Mr. Schwarz, do you have an engineer to testify tonight? >> No, I do not. None of them would attend.
They said it's a waste of time. I that's you and the engineer but this this record does not reflect >> and I've offered a lot of money for them to become Can you let me finish? >> Yeah. You you you can submit reports by
engineers, >> but in the absence of the engineer being present to testify under oath to allow for crossexamination there there is there's no legal basis for the for the board necessarily to accept that. >> I understand.
>> Mr. just go based off of based off the increased square footage. Can you just reiterate I guess what the with the recommended water retention system requirements would be. >> So it would have to be mitigated for the
100redyear 24hour storm which on for Union County in 1999 is 8.7 ines in a year. Governor Murphy through executive action said we must not use that anymore. We must use rainfall to the year 2100. So, it's 35% higher than that, which gives you around 11 inches
of rain. As as a backdrop, Ida dropped 7.4 to 7.8 in over Union County 2021. Irene probably similar to that. Floyd was anywhere in Union County, 7 to N.
So, that's what we're protecting against. So, it's the delta square footage by that amount of rainfall by a delta C. The delta C is the difference in runoff coefficients from grass which takes water at least initially versus a hard surface which
does that gives you a volume that volume has to there's not one magic way to do it. There's a lot of ways very often it's a dry well or a seage or it could be perimeter drains around other
that volume has to be achieved somehow. people have proposed rain gardens to glorify detention rates. >> Have you spoken to anyone about what your options can be with regards to water mitigation? >> Um,
we didn't even get that far. >> Two engineers come to the site and they were like, "What are we doing?" I could try to get opinion letters. I could contact more engineers and get opinion letters. >> I don't think That's your solution though. I think the answer needs to be
more of water mitigation because you you're going to get an opinion but there's still a fact and the opinion is not going to trump the fact and that's a rule that needs to be followed. So that's why I'm saying
you know is it worth having a conversation with Mr. just go and someone in his office about what your options can be and how can we get there successfully and I understand if you can't get all the way back to the number of the requirement but and that's where the variance comes in but you see that
you're making an approach to do so >> we I could continue speaking with Michael but I I don't think we're we're going to come to I don't we're going to get to terms. I mean, he's asking for a very big undertaking for water mitigation of
something that's so small where it's not even flooding. I mean, there's more pool runoff and people winterizing their >> Mr. Schwarz, I I don't mean to >> more than 10 in, 12 in, 20 in of water. >> But you're missing the point here. It's
not a matter of whether or not there is runoff. There may not be, but the law says that if you increase the impervious surface this amount, then you must provide for some means of dealing with that
additional runoff. It's mathematical. It's based on on the law. It's not a question of whose opinion whether there is or isn't runoff. The law says you have to put forth a workable plan to
deal with the additional runoff that so I if your if your house were three feet above the neighbors it wouldn't change it or three feet below the neighbors and all their water it it doesn't matter. You're increasing the impervious
surface. The law says you need to by the mathematical formula deal with X number of of >> volume >> gallons of of runoff. >> So Michael will be speaking I guess but I
doesn't make any sense to me. I none of my neighbors are getting flooding. I mean this I think you need to understand that it's not like we're trying to ruffle anyone's feathers or he's just trying to say stamp and no this is the rule.
If you go through every rule out there, there's probably something else you don't like about in Springfield, but it's the rule. We deal with it. >> Okay. So, so what do we do from here? >> I think you look into options for water mitigation, come to a decision of what you're going
to do, and then come back to us. >> Okay? >> Or you can remove coverage, come, right? Okay. Thank you, >> Mr. Schwarz. We have to take some formal action on the application. So, it could
just be tabled without a date certain and then when you're ready to come back, we can list it for the next meeting and then you would have to do the 200 foot list in publication. Um the other option is if you think you'll be ready for the December
meeting, it could be carried till then and and then you could present to the board at that time. >> Yeah, let's carry because I'm not doing those. >> I'm sorry. >> I don't want to do those mailers again. >> You I'm sorry. You don't want to do it? >> He doesn't want to notice again. We're
going to carry to December. >> Carry >> then. Chair, you need a a motion to to do that. >> Okay. So, do we have a motion to carry application 2025-15 to the December 17th meeting?
>> I'll move a second. >> Mr. Hawking. >> Yes. >> Mr. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Once again for the public, this matter is adjourned until the December meeting.
There'll be no further notice. Thank you chair. >> The next application that we're going to call is application 2025-24. This is for 33 Highlands Avenue, block 3207, lot 7. This is a request for lot coverage and lot coverage variance and
rear yard setback for an installation of a pool at the property. Is the applicant here? Hi, good evening. How are you? up or >> uh who's testifying? >> My father doesn't speak English. >> Okay.
>> Uh okay. >> So >> your your father is the applicant. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um so um if the two of you are going to testify on his behalf, then let me swear you both in. But
>> raise your right. >> Testify. You could translate to it rough, >> right? >> Okay. Got it. >> Um, have let's do the two of you first. >> Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth?
>> Absolutely. >> Do you also swear or affirm that if you do translate, you will do so uh um accurately um telling uh the owner what the board says and telling the board what he says accurately?
>> Yes. Um, both of you please state your name, spell your last name. Um, you can use your your father's address and then I need to swear him in with you translate. >> Bernardo Brian
P. >> I need to swear him in, but you have to tell him what I say. And and what and what language does he speak? >> Okay. What one of you just say to him? Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth?
>> Um and I just need his name for the record as well. >> Thank you. Just I I know it's a little difficult translating, but so the record is clear when you're telling us what what he's saying. Just say that out loud
so we the record is clear. Whether it's you testifying or whether it's you translating for him, we'll see how that goes. Thank you. Okay. Um, so if you could just tell us a little bit about what you're looking to
do on the property um, and elaborate on the placement of the pool and um, why you're here for the relief that's requested. >> Okay. So, good evening, Mr. Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, and members of the board. Uh, we thank you for the opportunity to present our application. Yes.
>> Uh, thank you for the opportunity to present our application. We're requesting approval for a variance to install a 14 by 33 ft inground pool in uh in our backyard. We've worked closely with our engineer to keep the design modest and in character with the neighborhood while creating while still
creating a usable and safe space for our family. The reason we're requesting the variance is that our property is legally undersized lot for the zoning district S-120 zone uh which requires 22,000 square ft while our lot is only 18,400
square ft. Because of the size and the way the existing home is retaining walls and positioning, we simply cannot meet the required 15t rear setback without the pool ending up close to the house or cutting into grade or or draining areas. Uh we've positioned the pool as
carefully as possible maintaining the 20 ft on the sides and 7.4 ft in the rear which is the absolute minimum necessary for a safe installation and proper proper proper circulation around it. Um the design also allows us to preserve
the existing fencing and mature landscaping that buffers the property from the neighbors. The impervious coverage variance is primarily due to the use of the pavers which are visually consistent with the home and helps manage runoff through the joints and drainage features. We're not adding not
adding new structure to reducing green space. Beyond that, what's needed for the pool? Uh our our goal is simple. It's to enjoy our home and outdoor space safely with our family and friends. We believe the improvement will enhance our property's appearance and possibly even
value and have no negative impact on our neighbors or the community. The proposal layout respects the intent of the zoning ordinance, minimizes any deviations, and keeps the project well within the residential residential characteristics of the neighborhood. For those reasons, we respectfully
request the board's favorable consideration of our variance application. >> Thank you. Can we just be clear for the record? Um, what is the existing or the required
um impervious and what is what is being proposed? Because it looks like on the site plan you're at 35.4% being proposed, but in your application it's 37%. So do you know
>> the original uh plan that was submitted was at 37. When they revised their plan and included the storm water mitigation, they some patio reduction occurred and it went down to 35.4. >> It's all trying to assist in in in
coming to an agreement with the with the town and and the laws that would would allow us to get this passed. So >> Okay. Um, and then the same on the rear yard just because the table is different. Is that because
of how it was originally looked at and viewed and now it's now seven? >> Yeah, it was originally 7.4. Now it's 8.3. >> Okay. >> 15 ft is required for pool setbacks.
I mean we would when the house was purchased though you know we were told there was an ingground pool so the expectation was even though it was closed you know in the future it was his interest was we have a family we have children we would love to reopen the pool now I understand that it's because
it's closed it's like it never existed I we understand but uh there is something there it was filled and there was a permit pull to have it closed properly so I guess the goal here is to try to meet what we need to to to get get it approved and get it reopened.
And we did add the storm water management. Um we understand the runoff concern. We incorporated a dry well into the design of the project. Um this ensures that all the you know pool deck runoff will properly be collected and infiltrate in infiltrated on the site
preventing any increase in water flow onto neighboring properties or township drain systems. >> Okay. So was that reviewed Mr. Disco? >> Yes. The plan by Morgan Engineering and Surveying right at the bottom left so
you can all see it. 8.69* 1.353 cubic feet required provides 56. So they're taking the roof area. I I have a question about design. Is there a reason why you didn't take the
pool and rotate it to be parallel with the house and reduce the coverage and take it away from the neighbors? Because you're really close to the neighbors line. Is there any technical reason why you didn't do that? >> It was because of the water line. They have told us that we had to move it a
little bit. >> I I don't understand. Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying. >> Okay. If you were to take the pool and instead of being parallel with the property, >> you're parallel with the house. >> Yeah. >> And you rotate the pool, which would get
it away from the neighborhoods, reduce the covers coverage. Um and and um I I just Is there a reason why you couldn't do that? Because it would make it >> So again, so the first draft that they had planned was parallel to the house
instead of the back wall and supposedly We can see it on the plan. I mean, >> I don't know if that's This was last year, so I'm not exactly sure. >> We've made some changes to >> We've made a couple changes >> to try to >> I mean, where the utilities are, that
was it, like where the lines run. But >> do you any do you see any reason why they couldn't rotate it? >> I understand your question. So yeah, in in in the original submission as well as what is in front of you, it is parallel to the rear or the the lot
line, not parallel to the house. So you're asking if they tweak the angle of it, could they increase the setback >> and it also would reduce the coverage too because they'd have a smaller >> It would. Yes. >> So that's a question posed.
>> Is the hole there though? Is that is that what >> it was? It was filled with rocks and so there's some issues with >> owner had told us once just in meeting that the pool was filled with rocks that
even so now every time it rains >> the water doesn't really drain properly because >> like when they actually go into the the rocks >> is it sitting in concrete grass on top. I don't know what how
>> so the pool was filled. They pulled a permit. They filled the pool and then they just put top soil over it. >> So the pool is still there. It just >> The pool is still there. >> Are you sure it wasn't broken up? Because >> uh it's it would be on the record. >> If it went through a building permit process, they would guarantee they'd have to assure that the bottom of the
pool was broken up. The water would go through not be a giant. All they had told us was I don't know exactly how they did it. It was 2019 and that
they actually broke it down, right? >> Yeah. The old pool is diagonally. No, no, it's the way you're doing it, right? The the new way. So, it never was the way you're talking. >> It was parallel to the property, not that. >> Absolutely. We don't know because we
never saw it, but we know that that they had pulled a permit to have it closed since the the previous owner was 93 years old and no longer using it. >> They're using the same >> we're trying to Yeah. And we actually shortened it to, you know, because we understand the runoff is a big thing
plus the drywall. So, we're trying our best to obviously if we could meet all the setbacks, we would we would just have done a permit. Unfortunately, you know, our the way the topography is and um the space in the back because of how setback the house is, there's really nothing additional that we could do. So,
>> and another house is and so you have the equipment pad very close to the property line. Is there another place you could put the equipment? >> Get it away from the neighbors. >> It seems like it's really pinching up on the property line there. >> Just from what the pool company told us,
they said that >> this is what they recommended us, >> but we could move it to wherever you >> That's a valid question. is the pool equipment will generate some noise, right? >> It's not going to violate a noise ordinance, but it's only shown as 3.8 ft
from the property, >> right? Really, really tight. >> I'm still not clear why that could >> Yeah, I know. >> It seems like it would be >> I do remember the because we've been going back and forth with the
engineering company So I do remember the first one was parallel to the house. I'm not 100% sure why I think it was water >> because the water line has to be a
certain distance from the house too, but we can't because there's just not enough space >> in the yard. I mean the house was clo like the house is pretty set back on two corners. um like High Point and and Highlands. So, if the house was a little bit like if it was a little close to the
street, there'd be more space in the back to to work with. Um there just isn't much space in the back to work with. >> My my question, I'm a little confused. the pool from the distance from lot six
which is where I guess we're how how how far is that from the property line it's 8.3 ft >> excuse me >> the corner of the pool the water's edge is 8.3 feet from that lot line >> and what's the requirement >> 15 ft
>> 15 ft >> it's a driveway though on the other side right >> yeah and any walls Yeah. >> So, there's really no >> there's no like it doesn't >> No, >> there's no house that sits right >> No. >> off of that.
>> There's a one of the pool on the other side. >> And you're substantially higher than that than those those people. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm just more concerned about you being three feet on the property line with equipment as clearance to get through
there. It was just where it could go. That's where we >> Is there a fence around the property? >> Yes. What kind of fence is it >> with this pool? Um,
Mike, the the ordinance for having a fence around a pool. What is that exa? What does that state exactly? >> It would have to be 54 in minimum in height. >> Yeah. >> It has to also have self-latching, self-closing gates. >> That's a building department perview.
So, if if you grant approval on the pool when they go to submit that, they to satisfy. Springfield also has a unique ordinance that nobody else has because of an unfortunate situation that happened about years ago. So, it may require
fencing around the pool. >> That's what I was getting at. If I might just in in the normal course in any uh resolution that I put before this board concerning a pool, I include as a condition compliance with all of
those rules. >> Okay. Thank you. You going to keep the same footprint as the as the existing nonpool? You going to keep the same footprint? >> The dimensions you have on this is 13 by 32.
Mike, was there ever anything found when the old pool was put in? Is there anything in the history? >> Well, I assume if there was a permit, there would be a record for the the demo of I don't have I tried on Google Earth here to get on my laptop or my desktop.
I can go back in time. My phone's not allowed. We did pull a per like a Oprah to see what open per we did see that it was closed but there was no details of how >> No, I was curious was it approved how it was approved originally that close to the other neighbor's property?
>> I can't tell you right now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think uh that there was any records of that pool, but other than the permit that was to close it before they sold the property >> and the shape of the pool, are you
married to it or >> No, we're will we don't want it to be too small because it's expensive thing. So, but uh but um we are willing to work with the town on you know whatever needs to get done.
>> The width of the pool is an issue. >> Okay. pull the equipment away from the neighbor. >> It's just it's not it's not a big backyard. It's you know some of the yards back there they either slope down or they slope up. So we actually have like a
decent yard. It's just not very big because of how the house is set back and all that coverage is all the greens in the front. It's interesting if you did rotate the pool, you'd have more flat area on the other side of where that retaining wall. You'd actually
increase your >> I'd have to talk to the pool company. You know, I guess they we they wanted to put it just kind of where the other one was because we're going to have to dig it out anyway and see what's under there.
And I mean with the storm water management system it'll work better because right now what we have now is a situation where it was filled with rocks and it's not I guess permeable like the water just sits it doesn't absorb as well. So you know
>> you mentioned that there's a one of your neighbors that >> to the left of the house >> you're looking at your to the left. >> Yeah. So, uh, so of Highlands, if you're going down >> because you could see it from our yard.
>> The right of your house is the driveway. >> Oh, yeah. Uh, if you're looking at the house and it sits on both streets, basically, if you're in the yard and you look to the left, the neighbor to the left at the bottom has an ingground pool. Looks like both neighbors.
>> There's there's a garage with the house, correct? And >> okay, the G I'm looking back in the back of the house. Um it says asphalt driveway with block group. now. And I also see um an indicator here
for water flow. It seems to flow towards your driveway. You know, if you're looking at the pool up here, little squiggly arrow shows the direction of the water going down. I'm just curious, have you ever had a problem
with water going onto your driveway or going into your neighbor's yard, which is would be to the through uh lot eight. Would you ever has >> there's so at the end of the drive like so where the garage door are, there is some sort of water mitigation system.
>> The water would towards the garage at the end of the the garage doors they have those grates. Um, so if when it rains the water we don't we don't have issues with >> it's mainly just where the pool is. >> Yeah. >> Squishy.
>> But on the driveway, no issues. >> And the way the driveway was done. >> So if you put this >> Okay. So, so, so right now, right where the pool is, you have a water issue when it rains a lot. >> Yeah.
>> Because of how the the pool was closed, >> right now, if you reopen the pool and get put a new pool in, what's the water issue going to be like? >> It's a storm water management. So there's there's a drywall where all the
water will go. >> Where is that out? Where is that on? >> Is it on is it indicated on here? >> I see you got a lot of papers being >> located between the house and Highlands Avenue. I don't know if it's shown on the drawing you're looking at.
>> Yes. This is the plan and revis 2025. I personally don't have a problem with the water run off. I'm just trying to figure out how to get that hole further away from the neighbors. >> We could definitely talk to the
engineers for them to move it parallel to the house. If that's >> it seems like it would solve a lot of the issues. >> That's totally fine. Like I said, I I remember it in the first parallel to the house.
100% sure why, but I know there was a certain reason for it to be. >> I mean, we started trying to diminish the size of it, but we also don't want it to be small like where it's like we spent all this time and energy and trouble trying to get it approved and then we have like a really small
inground pool. Plus, I guess we were looking at basically kind of using the space as it was, as we assume it's going to be when we pull back that grass um with whatever's under there because again, closed. We don't know. We don't know how it was opened.
>> And you put paved all around the pool. >> Yeah, we tried to go with a like a paver that's going to help like um the water so it doesn't pull and it'll go right into the into the system that's going to take it to the dry well. We took all those things into consideration.
So at the rear of your house between the pool and the house there's pavers and then there's an area not designated as pavers that just grass area. >> Yeah, it's all grass. Yeah. So, is this a request for them to come back with a revised plan?
>> Is that what you were asking for? >> I mean, we'll see. >> I mean, >> find out if you can turn the pool and if you can't, maybe come back with a hard reason as to what the technical reason is. And >> so, to the house.
>> Well, if you if you rotated it, you would you would get rid of your sideyard issues and and reduce the coverage. >> If you come back and say XYZ, there's a technical reason that makes sense. >> You got you got other board members here
that >> they may Google Earth that you guys provided. I see your house. >> Yeah, >> both house. So, left and right both have ground pools.
It looks like there's some trees and stuff, but I don't think you're actually close to the neighbor as it looks in that. I got one more question in the same vein as he pool the side of the pool
the house the property um this is Highland and then this street is >> High Point High Point >> High Point okay lot six what's between the pool and the neighbor and your neighbor's prop your
neighbor's property what's there I mean Are there trees there? >> Yeah, there's trees and uh >> yeah, there's nothing behind there. >> As well based on the land survey. >> And there's a steep drop.
>> There's a steep drop off. >> Driveway. Yeah, around the outside of the property alongside the outside of the fence, but it's not it's all >> like wilderness >> trees and it >> it's honestly we would love to take advantage of that additional space, but
we really there's really nothing you could do without maybe because of the drop off, you probably need like some sort of retaining walls. >> So, yeah, they just I guess they fenced in what they could. making it a condition instead of
suggesting them to come back. >> Oh, they can rotate it same size fit and move by >> instead of having to come back. >> I don't know why it look to >> It's not going to be the different size
pool. It would just be rotating the pool in the same size. But when you look at like their space of their land, >> I think my only concern with that would be that it's changing what's being requested, >> right? We don't have a proper calculation.
>> If we were to condition it, then we don't have a proper calculation of what this the rear yard setback is or the impervious. Right? So >> currently there originally So, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I'm looking at these
topographical lines here, the elevation and you now the pool five and then please somebody correct me if I'm wrong with this. Um, the pool's roughly at 450 ft above sea level and the neighbor's
property line is at 442 on lot 8 and lot six it's at 445 I think. So that indicates to me that your your property a little higher than
your neighbors property. Have they ever had a problem with water runoff that you know of since your property is at a higher elevation? >> Which one? The one that's lower or the one to >> my point? >> This one's a little more not as low as
>> Okay. Yeah. The one to the right when you're if you're looking at the house. >> Yeah. So my my my question is it looks like your property is slightly higher in elevation >> to them once or twice about some trees and they never mentioned anything. And they have a pool. >> They do.
>> And then the property also lot lot um six. >> I was looking at that too and that seems to be a little bit lower along that fence line than your than where the pool's going to be. I'm just wondering now you got you proposed to
put pvious pavers to allow water to seek through around the pools as what you said earlier. Correct. Yeah. >> Well, yeah, it would. It would, but it doesn't do that. Yeah. >> We actually think we may sort some
issues by by doing this pool where we with this dry well, we can have the water issue sorted actually. I just point out one thing which is not very evident but um Mr. Hawkstein, you'll probably pick
up on you show the 50-foot front yard set back in the dash line, the bold line. Pools are not permitted in the front yard. So, as you as you angle that pool towards high point, you get close to getting into the front yard, which
would be different type of relief. >> Well, there you go, too. >> I actually rotated. I saw and I hit the corner right at the 50 and I think you could do it >> right. You got a couple of feet that you tweaking. >> You get more you get more set back from
islands than you do from high point. >> I think what Mr. Disco is saying is if if you as you keep turning you could actually encroach on the front yard setback line, but I think you can get it parallel withoutroaching. >> Oh, okay. >> I mean the house is 20.4T. So the house
is existing on Right. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm still confused about the widow line. >> This was a year ago, so I don't remember exactly what it was, but remember to
>> move it to the wall, but I said, >> I'm not trying to sell you either way. Obviously, if you ask them to come back go to the building department on it own >> maybe a reason why not >> yeah we
>> I mean we've been going back and forth for a year with engineering and you know the town engineer and and so again I'm not I don't want you guys taking into consideration anybody has a pool obviously the pool was there but didn't doesn't actually exist anymore more. So, but we did our diligent due diligence
with our engineering with uh with Morgan who's they've been great to get us something that we can definitely enjoy, but at the same time can still take into consideration the setbacks we can't meet and the water runoff which I know is very important. So, >> we also want to fix the issue of
>> I think no matter what you do back there digging a hole and doing all that work, you're going to address it some way. The only thing I think I would recommend that is like you said, you recall there was an issue with piping possibly if you could find out what that is because if
you then change the angle of the pool and all of a sudden that becomes a problem now because when you when you go to do it then this >> issue of of the >> Okay, that just might be helpful for you. just this way. We said, "Yeah, it's
okay to do it this way." And then you start digging and find out, well, >> I mean, look, if we open up the the like if it gets approved and we open it up, then we can see what we're working with and we can have the pool company, you know, we can talk to the engineer or whoever will handle the permit and just
see what if there's any changes that would need to happen. But as of right now, we don't know exactly what's under there. But whatever we do is going to fix our issue now with the water, right, >> that's pooling. We don't know if maybe it wasn't broken up underneath. We don't we don't know. We know that it there's a
closed permit, but there's no records because we did an Oprah. So, Can I um suggest that we make a that somebody make a motion to forward this to the next meeting? They
come back with a revised diagram of where this pool's going to be. and to hopefully elite to hopefully um satisfy your question about how far they're from from the neighbor's property and also to be fully cognizant
of the 50 yard setback line. So they come back with the revised plan for where the pool's going to be >> and and if for some reason you can't there's a reason rock or whatever is in there, at least move the
equip We'd have to redesign the the survey and we reworked this. >> Yeah, >> there I don't understand.
>> I don't understand what the point is. The pad is three feet from the property line where the equipment's going. >> I know. Our concern is noise, but it's they have a pool. >> They do have their own pool and we don't we don't or anything.
>> Is it going to be heated or not? >> The pools don't make I mean the the only thing you have to worry about with pool is is the circulation is the pump and that does not make a lot of noise. >> Yeah. >> You saying though if they move the pool that they should avoid the 50 foot
setback because then we're like talking about them moving showing us >> it not parallel to the house and >> it would just be moved like two feet, maybe three. I'm not very good at looking at this and understanding scale, but >> but if you if if
>> if they rotate it to be parallel to the house, they'll the corner of the pool will just about touch that >> if they rotated the pool. >> I understand. If they rotate the same pool, turn it
with the house, right? >> The front corner of the pool could just about hit the 50ft line. >> That's what I'm saying. >> I thought it was you wanted them to rotate it little bit. If you're telling rotated completely parallel,
then they're going to go into >> I don't think they will or they'll be >> Well, it's only my opinion. I hope the rest of you can >> understand because it is a little odd change >> is there an ement >> maybe he said it because of the setback
>> right so if that's the case we could get. Okay. So, >> we were told we needed >> understood. So, I think we Well, let's start with this. So, you
obviously are asking to carry >> to look at the pool. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, do I even have to do the public yet if they want if he wants to put a motion on the floor to carry and then see where we go? >> Okay. Sorry. Wait,
>> is it the zoning officer that came out or did he actually send you an email? >> No, no, we like I went to the >> annex and he spoke about it and he said that I should move it to the wall. >> The building department? >> Yeah, the building department.
>> I spoke to Robert. I remember it was Robert >> probably because of the front yard set back >> then withdraw that >> that's why I told >> but that's that's when I told the engineering company to
>> but then that angle change also then put you closer to your neighbor's property line >> so it's kind of a catch 22 too. >> There's just again there's no space. We do have a little bit of property behind the fence, but because it slopes down, there's not nothing you can there's nothing you could do other than if you
did some sort of retaining wall to hold the dirt in place cuz the property just goes like this. >> Oh, there is a retaining wall on that outside that kind of holds some of that top soil in place behind the fence, but that's like lost space. We can't do anything with it. So,
>> so that's why we were because of the retaining wall to move it towards the wall instead. >> Yeah. So, if you go around the outside of the property of the fence, >> still be our property. >> It's still our property, but like there's a retaining wall that kind of holds everything in place from that
>> because we're higher. >> All right. Let me do this first. Are there any other questions from the board for the applicants? >> I just want to get clarification. So, the town told you to change the angle. Wasn't anything that somebody else?
>> No. So I went to spoke to Robert >> does it make sense for us to get something stating reason we're just not challenging what you're saying but we don't understand his thought process. as a representative of the town,
shouldn't we know what he's thinking? Yeah, >> I mean this was last last year and so then we started um diminishing the size of the pool too to so we've been trying to work you know >> to the best of our ability. >> I think we would I would like to know
his thought process. Maybe he knows something we don't know. >> He said something about the water line has to be 15 feet from property or something. >> I'm not really sure because I don't know how to build the pool. I just >> So there may be reason that we have to
research. He has the answer. >> Not going to >> I know he told me a reason. >> Yeah. He said that we needed >> I'm not sure. >> Said the variances would involve the the storm water um mitigating that water. The setback we were meeting our setbacks
and the water line the pool water line needs to be 15 ft from the house but we we can't because there's not enough space or something. So that's why the pool was set. >> The pool water line has to be 15 That's what Robert had said.
>> Any rear and sideyard? front yard may be preferable. I think that's where the chair might have been heading. >> Oh, if they had rotated corner, >> correct? >> I don't think anybody can see that. >> Right. It's a technical variance, but it
may result in lesser side. >> I think sorry. >> Oh, okay. So, there we go. Can we see that and mark that? Let's see what it says. Denial of the application. We're going to put this as A1. >> Or if it came from the town, do we have
to do >> Is it in here? >> Denial letter to go from the bar. >> Yeah, it just might have been the prefuncter zoning review that said you need >> proposed pool violates lot coverage and water line of pool.
That's theif that's the setback for 15 ft. >> Too close to the property line. 15 ft required. >> Okay. So that's not necessarily saying that the pool needs to be parallel to the property line and not parallel to the house >> for a waterline issue.
>> I don't remember. >> So when you're saying a water line, you're talking about the line of the pool of water, not a pipe. That's >> I don't know. Oh, I thought it was a pipe or something. >> It's probably what he means by the
>> Okay. So, so that was the confusion. >> Yeah, I think that too. Depends on which what which corner you >> Yes. So that you can walk cuz and then there's two gates, one to High Point and one to Highland. Well, down the retaining walls down to the driveway. So,
and I think it conforms more with what was already there sort of, but we'll we'll only know once we once we dig dig down. Okay, perfect. Great. That's done. Any other questions? Okay. Any member of the public here that
has any questions for the applicant? Any member of the public that wants to speak on the application? None. Excellent. Okay. So, um it seems like there's a a motion that you want to make to carry the
application. >> I I but I'm only one person here. I would like to see it. >> Well, you're entitled to make the motion. I'd like to make a motion to >> to come back with the pool rotated to see if you can improve the distance for
the setback to the pool. Um, and also get the pool equipment further away from the foot, away from neighbor, be in more compliance. That's what I'd like to. >> I'll second that. Okay,
>> we have a motion. We have a second. So, we need a vote. Mr. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. >> Vice chair. >> Yes.
>> No. >> Okay. >> So, for the record, Mr. Mr. Bergen, >> just to clarify, the matter is being carried to the December 17th meeting, same location, without any more public notice.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Do you have notes of what you need to ask? >> Any other business from the board? >> You know what it is? >> Okay. Motion to adjurnn. Second. >> Yeah. Just so we're clear, were we asking the engineer or the pool company
what you know? No, it would be the pool company, right? Why they placed the pool and then >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And if they can rotate it, then all we're asking you to come back is to show us how you would reduce the coverage and what that would look like
in terms of the setbacks. >> Who moved it? >> Robert is the one that moved the pool though. >> Pool company didn't move it. >> Robert was the one that told us that to move the pool. Yeah, Robert. >> Okay. So, can we get that information
from the building department or the zoning officer? Sorry. >> I I you the the zoning officer may have made a suggestion to increase the setback. The board is now asking for an attempt to get the pool equipment
further away and to increase that setback. So I don't think you need to interact with the zoning officer at this point. I think you just deal with your your own pool company and the engineering plan. >> Yeah. Just just for the applicant the
engineer saying is uh Mr. Herbert Robert made a suggestion but this board essentially has the authority to make the decision and they may disagree with him but the board is asking you to you
know see what you can do. We'd like to see a rendering with the with the pool parallel to the house. Yeah, I think it behooves you to speak to both the pool company and your plan prov >> um >> but to keep the pool the same size just
>> I would suggest >> they basically have held our money for a year and we'll back unless this gets rejected. So, >> well, we've already spent so much money in engineering. And >> what type of pool is it? >> It's a fiberglass.
>> Okay. >> The shape shape is set, >> right? Okay. >> So, is there anything they can >> They've been holding the deposit for a year now, but they won't give it back unless we get this projected, but it's stuff because we've been back and forth
that we got an engineer involved and that wasn't cheap. So, at this point, we're we could either lose engineering money or lose the pool money or we're going to lose somewhere unless we get this >> engineer to see if they can finesse it a little bit. And if they can't, then come back and tell us why.
>> Okay. There was a motion to adjurnn and there was a second. All in favor? >> Everyone have a wonderful Thanksgiving.