Calling the City. Council Budget and Finance Committee to order. Today we have one presentation which is a public works 5 year capital plan. Today. Our presenter will be from Public works will come to the chamber U.S.. Thank you. Council Vice PRESIDENT Nick Peters public works. Happy to present or 5 year plan due 2 days for the next 5 year term of 2026. To 2030. Done annually starts in the falls every year. That will start to have really rigorous interactions. And then, of course, DECEMBER, the 5 year plan is ask for approval, but City Council so this year that will be DECEMBER 3rd when the item comes before council, it actually split up a little bit. And so we tried to get in here as quickly as we could to have this conversation with So. Outline of her presentation will we'll talk
through the kind of a chart of the 5 year plan show a map of what it looks graphically. And then also talk through funding source is and projects. We did this year and projects that will come up next year. We want to save time for common sense at the end. But I do know that we do have written columns or transportation planning manager is in the process. He hasn't met with with you and your in the process of trying to have those kirstein reaching out, trying to have those give what I want to tension that you you deserve. So this is what the 5 year capital plan looks like this chart. Really the focus here. We've got a number of columns, got a number of roles. The columns, of course, of the 5 years, the role as our funding sources. And so this is what
looks like generally speaking. Five-year plan is funded. There's just one year of funding that comes with it. So it's that first year 2026. But I really want to talk about in particular that were never focused on here. So we can see that I'm gonna go through each of the funding sources individually. But I just know that there's a lot of numbers here. So I don't want to dwell on this as a as our primary graphic. So geographically what our projects would look like for 2026, you can see there's lot of stuff throughout the city and actually for all 5 years. Between te county, the state and city led projects. This is what a lot of the transportation improvements look like in the city. You know, in in particular, we will have some collaboration with the county, some collaboration actually with
Metro Transit, which I'm going to be excited to talk about a bit later, which I kind of a first of its kind type of collaboration with Metro Transit. A lot of continued known overlay reconstruction here. And want jump through the use a greater level of detail. If you look at that chart. First street reconstruction bonds are issued annually for infrastructure improvements. 12 and a half million dollars of reconstruction funding comes through street reconstruction bonds 3 million dollars for residential overlay in an annual basis. So that's a total of 15 and a half million dollars. Some funding is able to be carried over you just just fashion as allowed. But every year to both 15 and a half million dollars. The next big chunk as
municipal stated, we call it m s a the primary funding source for this is gas tax. There are a couple of other elements like licensed have renewal and that sort of thing that that also help fund this. But primarily it's the state gas tax, its formula funding based on the size of a municipality and also the needs that that municipality has needs is just a. It's way that the statute tries to elaborate on qualify, which infrastructure we have that is eligible for for stated funding. So population needs evenly between the 2 and that funding can be used sa roads, but also must fall. And that's a standard. So can't be used any corridor throughout the city. Then the next big city funding bucket is common sense. And
that's the local option. Sales tax. And that is three-quarters of one percent. And, you know, as a Nord will have some time at the end, the walk through that. But that the 20 year program that has some identified corridors and lot of good work happening there. That if we continue through city sources of funding here, we've got the General Fund and general fund is one of those really I would call it the gold standard funding source because it can pay for things that some of those other sources just simply can't pay for. So the msa again, must be spent sa roads and according to Standards. But general fund is really helpful that we can spend it on the local system so we can we can't spend just any any source of funding our local residential streets, for example. So sidewalks, an overlay and we work are going to require that there be
general fund. Revenues available for those types of improvements. It's also using projects of things come up that are not eligible for those other funds. So we always try to hold on to general fund until the end of a project. And even when construction is complete. Sometimes we're still going through a process of trying to close off that contract with the contractor and even after construction is complete, that the money might still be needed for. You're too. After that. Capital improvement Bonds, there's funding program for capital improvement, Bonds. And we've got some some exciting additions for for the the future of the 5 year plan where sidewalk branding is anticipated to be something that's funded for a number of years. A much more cost effective way of maintaining
sidewalks, improving sidewalks, of course, assessments assessments are applied for reconstruction to reconstruction costs and delay costs as well. Externally. We have county, Minn dot and also federal funding the county and state both have a competitive solicitations that are available. And we also MAY cooperate on projects with those entities. So it might might be that the city leads the project and they would partner with a sore we might need a project. We might need a project Department State Mike Lee, the project and we partner with them. But they both have cost participation policies. And so one of the things that not just city of Saint Paul, but also when we talk about the county, all the cities and Ramsey County are working on trying to come up
with a more equitable policy with Ramsey County to make sure that we're not we're not paying. We're paying our fair share and no more than that. All counties across the state of develop cost participation policies and we can spend a lot of her money and county projects if they let us in. So that's a big initiative that we've got going forward. Likewise dot. There's also every city in every county in the state have a requirement to cost participate, amended projects and we're ging through a process with select cities and counties throughout the state to make sure that the state policy is equitable to before us. And then the federal funding and the things, of course, we can get your marks and also regional solicitation grants that are
competitive. And then some. More more recent big external funding sources here. When we look at the Kellogg 3rd Street Bridge, it's a great example of a legislative appropriation. We have. Bonding. That bridge, that bidge couldn't happen without a substantial amount of funding from. Either federal earmark state bonding. So. Just great example. There. You know, very specific projects of those have to be used on the relatively new is the transportation Advancement account, which is tas the short abbreviated name of that. And that's that natural delivery fee that came out last year and We were counting on that to pick up our local
share on federally funded projects in particular. Transportation Planning Division does a fantastic job getting federal money. However, it comes with the requirement that we bring some local money to those projects. Typically it's a t 20 is the split. The city is usually for the local county or city is required to bring a 20% of local amount. So 2 really great way to leverage our local money, but it means we have to have that local funding available to do it. And so is a great example can leverage federal dollars. Now taking a break from funding. Do a lot of talking trying to get through that quickly. Street projects for 2025, this has been an enormous year. I think if we were to add up, all the
projects were doing icluding bridges and somewhere in the order of 200 million dollars, I think for for construction, which is. Enormous. Absolutely public works, particularly on the Capitol very busy, very, very busy this year. Representative projects here. Jackson, which is a concept project. Just kind the hill from. From the from the hospital. Robert Street and all show some pictures and talk a little more detail, both the U.S. But, you know, 2, 2, really big projects. And when you talk about the bridge, there's a lot of stuff going on kind of the east and the downtown. And it's not lost on trend, too, really ramp up our efforts to communicate, be proactive with affected stakeholders. As we move outside of
downtown Grand Avenue. Another concept project, a challenging business district that looks fantastic. One of the first Townsend projects to get done. Pleasant Avenue. This is over by the Pleasant Arena and the yard waste site that might frequent. The we like Phase one project just east of Kabul, the lake there, and then a bike boulevard on the Westside and the Cleveland crossing. And I want to talk a little more about those when we get to the pictures no overlay projects actually had a lot of know, really projects happen this year. George Street really excited to have George Street on a lot of safety improvements just pure condition. Fronts from Western to rice is also some bike elements that go with that I hope we can all do Ruth Algonquin that mill and overlay on the side was
delayed because of the metro transit work that was occurring. So really excited that that was finally able to get done because whether it was on the beach detour route or was just simply close for a while, it made it challenging and we didn't want to make things Really excited got done. And then number cases of residential overlay projects that got done. So super excited about those. And what things look like. You know, we're we're adding facilities that weren't there you know, multi moral standpoint making things so much better. This corridor was really challenge before really excited to see that. We've got multi-modal connectivity here and people
don't have to triple over things. There's pro Have street lights in the middle. Really narrow sidewalk, for example. So really great stuff that happened here. Robert Street. This is one of those projects that a lot of engineers and contractors alike try to avoid. Because it's so complicated and it's so risky not every contractor wants to on something like this. And a lot of people don't have the skill set to go in and constructed order to design it to or manage the construction. So really challenging. And I mean, there are utilities everywhere protective work around them. Make sure they don't get damage is really complicated. So this is really complicated project and it just has all kinds of surprises cause that's really around every corner. MR. Hughes and like I
appreciate you bringing up this picture of Robert. She just to show how thank you mentioned complex and the high level of risk with reconstructing streets. Could you share like this level of complexity? How common is that? And a lot of the streets that we're looking at reconstructing something typical that you would see in in a street downtown or most of our state's going to be difficult because of hold it. There. Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember, I would offer that every street downtown. It's going to be very similar to this. The commercial corridors tend to the next tier of complexity, but rally just about everything that's downtown there. There's there's so many utilities and they tend to be really old. And haven't been touched in a while. Residential streets don't don't have that level.
But I would say just about anything we do downtown is really challenging and not only are a lot of people impacted by those projects, but they tend to be the ones that are riskiest and w did all kinds. We tried to use every tool we could to to investigate things here. But all those corridors require that higher level downtown of investigation. To answer your question or thanks. Not a Pleasant street services, pleasant near the arena. lot of water over here. And one really exciting thing about this project is this will be a solar lighting pilot for us where we've partnered with university and got funding twice actually, people liked the idea of doing the study so much that we actually got additional money through the
local road research board to study the feasibility of solar lighting. And so the corridor will be designed for the ability to have conventional lighting on it. But also we will be working really, really technical people to make sure that it's just off the walls that can be and to see. Is this something that, you know, at some point, the skill, you know, not just in Saint Paul but elsewhere. So it was really it's really cool to see so many other cities, counties and dot engaged in to see whether that's feasible in the future. So excited to look into that next year. from questions so on the previous slide with the picture, can you tell us like when I look at that, I just
see a giant home and I'm not gonna lie. Can you tell us what we're even looking at? Like what it like. I hear you say there's a lot of other infrastructure in place have to work around it. And I feel that that's probably expected in this picture. But I just don't know what I'm looking at live. No reference point for this. So can you tell us like we're looking at a huge hard like what? What about this picture like? Why did you choose it for the presentation? I'm assuming showing us something that we're not inferring or I'm definitely not inferring. Can you tell us what we're looking at in terms of like? Assuming there is? I said there's things in there. Police tell us what we're looking on. The rate for the right hand side with all the cables and things. Council vice on the left. We and I just kind of start left or right in the pictures. The picture on the left. You
can see that there a lot of pipes laying on the on the right side. So there's a lot of all water main that's out here being staged. Those materials going to be kept on site. The excavators are kind of in the intersection, so to speak. So. They dig a hole inside the hole on the at the end of the day projects begin with the stuff that's deeper road, the road projects and they can really frustrating for people because it looks like there's you know, you're taking a whole year showing a back and you're digging a hole want to back in the same spot. Everything can be replaced exactly the same time. And there's a need to maintain all services. There's a whole that gets dog. There's a trench in those pipes. Ultimately systematically very linear
fashion, get installed on the ground and trench continues to move. Know they do removals the pikes going and types of things that you encounter. The picture on the right were. You know, if your plan, first agenda to trend, put things together and work around utilities that are there. So that takes utilities. There's a lot talk. Kind of with this and the picture, the the Orange facility is generally speaking, the type orange pipe that you might see out and about. It's going to be telecom type of pipe to fber optic or copper cables, that kind of thing. And it. There can be a lot of Nutella pipes. They're out here. And so edf guest services like pipe there towards the topic and also water services. That are going to be metallic. There is sewer and kind of background that steel ish. You know, there's going
to be even outside of picture. There will be things up out of the excavation that's temporary. To make sure that those services are maintained. So. There can be a lot of lot of stuff out there. I really appreciate that Just thanks, chair. Just to Peterson. Could you talk about? Like the ability to locate items under ground before excretion. Council, vice PRESIDENT Councilmember prior to construction starting even prior to putting together plan documents we had hired a few firms to help us doing some subsurface utility engineering downtown, just acknowledging that this was going to be a challenge. And we did. Ground penetrating radar for the
whole corridor and tried to look for anything and everything. Anomalies were flagged it ground penetrating radar is kind of like a I'm going to the doctor and getting a a. Telling us this up with the like the sonogram, you know, to see what, what what lies below. I mean, in tell my kids are older. Can remember name the But, you know, you're looking to see what a nominee's might might be there. Is there a box below ground? Is there a pipe below ground? I there some kind of avoid? Is there a big foundation or something there? So we went through that level. And then when those things were flagged, we did some polling to try and figure out where those are what are they? How hard day and is it something that we need to worry about? So we talked
about pleasant than Westside Bike Boulevard in this picture. You actually see Steph. In the field. This is exciting project to do some quick build. Improvements here to see what types of things might work out. Permanent. Fashion future years. There materials that are put in place rapidly, not necessarily meant to be there for forever and ever and ever. But, you know, to do things quickly you know, safer fashion. What's out there today? It was really cool to see Steph, to this. It was an exciting day, I think, for staff to to be engaged you know, some teamwork and actually save a lot of money. At the same time. And then Cleveland Railroad crossing. So every now and then we get questions about c id just capital from and bonds. The generic funding programs that we have. And this is an example of one of those the railroad crossing line item
that it's kind of seated every every so many years. There's there was a little bit of money that went in there and this project costs over $350,000 just to do to roll across sings, you know, putting ramps replace the crossing, a partner with the real world a lot of effort. But it took a lot of time to get there. So just this is a really good examples. This is what about 10 years? I think gets us with the the railroad crossing lights just as an example, but excited at this time we get done because it was. So bad for so long that are 2026 projects. Pretty big projects lined up for 2026. The first 3here university are all in Pelham are common sense. Projects were still in the process of trying to get ahead of every project and the
comments and projects. That's no different. So trying to get them all started as early as possible. And really this year, you're going to start seeing that. What identified is pretty calm money. So that's that's meant to help with project development early early on before so university is a project that's pretty far through that process and ready for construction conversations or or maybe Fresher, for all. Hellmann's is poised for for construction next year. So the 3. New, big reconstruction. Projects for for next year. We lacked Prado will be the second phase on existing project, area just east parks. There will pedestrian improvements along paid 11 intersections that bump-outs medians, that that kind of a thing train taking up
corridor, high-volume corridor and then there's a safe routes to school initiative here o hand. Up to hoy a little bit along point just to facilitate safe routes to school. Council PRESIDENT, thanks, chair, MR. Peterson just want to get a little bit more about the preconstruction dollars. That's the first time I'm seeing that show up on the 5 year plan and I know that there is work that has to happen before construction. But what? What is that work? And why are we oly budgeting for it with common sense and usually 2 years before the project begins, our what's the sort of in advance timeframe when we would be doing reconstruction? Council is present council PRESIDENT. Tiffany Porter, to respond
and actually the I call them development Every project has development costs and they are specific to that project. just a general rule of thumb is roughly 25% of the value a vote capital construction project. Is the soft development costs to support and develop that project. So that would include serving public engagement. Preliminary design, final design. The bigger role exhibits that you might see it public meetings. The the dirty Black and white plan sheets that we would put together everything that it takes to deliver the project is isn't that? We want to make that. That advanced planning for projects just happened so much sooner. Trying to move eery project up. I know in the last decade alone, things
progressed a lot. But ideally, we'd we find ourselves into a 2 to three-year window for projects in advance. The more complex they are. The earlier we wanted to be. But yeah, its really everything that's project development related and it's always. You know, whatever that project is, those costs are always funded. But that project rather than general staff and one of the securities and public works is actually dead. A lot of our staff are funded by We operate much, much like a business. So we have to have those projects to fund Staffan. We actually have very few staff 3rd general fund funded terms of the capital every things. Thanks, chair. I'm just curious. It looks that will make sense to me, but it looks like only seeing the preconstruction again on the common sense projects as opposed like the steepest
streets. Pojects where again, I those also need preconstruction. So does that just come from a different source? Council PRESIDENT, the? Common sense has. a new planning process that came with that. And so just because there are a lot of questions that are coming out of it and making sure that we're being planned full from the scene on program that has to last for 20 years. We're identifying that stuff earlier to make sure you that we've got the money available for for that type of. Those are all big projects require consultants and we need to have money identified for those projects where we're going to have consultants because can't legally engage a contractor without having them. The money set aside for that. On the other projects like state aid, we actually
have pot. There actually isn't account that or he has money in there. And we're always already cash following that. But the the common just different because those are the projects were with. You every one of those projects we're gonna end up engaging consultants and we need to have that money identify earlier. And I know there will be a lot of eyes on common sentiment. We're trying to be real clear on what. What that's for. So just said like. 1, 7, more on that. So it's it's about flavor of dollars, but also because it's coming from state aid is coming from a pot of mney. You can project out what your soft costs could look like in terms of it being included in said pot of money or like I think because the question is like, why are identifying sort of what the the pre Koster soft costs of our other projects. But it
sounds like that guy. Maybe we are. And there's included in search of the protected. Project costs in terms of like what we would need to drive down from said pot of money for state money. Just like to are we comparing apples to oranges? Because I think. I think even the lion, the lion, the threat that I'm calling on the un. As even around the cost like the true cost of business some staff. Are getting paid through general fund in summer project base. But we're not drawing down those funds from serves a state pot of money. But so the question is. Do we have projected costs for projects like if 25% of the capital construction costs, he's going towards soft costs is that included in the pot of money that we're drying down or is that not included our
project? Cost me go for. When go for those tasks Council, vice PRESIDENT. We do anticipate those soft costs other flavors of money. However. Whether it something that's going require you know, million plus dollar contract with the consultant is a is important matter. Just the magnitude of those projects, the comments on projects tend to be very large corridors so that the dollar, just the sheer magnitude of that needs to be accounted for in a different. A different fashion. We are. We do anticipate the soft costs for the other flavors and money were needed. But the magnitude and way that those projects are delivered. Generally with internal sources makes it. So that it's not showing up on the 5 year plan per se. There
are some instances where it does, but generally speaking it it's already accounted for. And in program that we have Yeah, appreciate that. That offers greater clarity. Thank you. And then for 2026 here, we've got Saint Anthony. On the nurse snow Marion as overly project. Another Ivy, Birmingham. Another residential, overlay project. The one I'm really excited about here. And this is where I talked about Metro Transit. Partner is Metro Transit will be doing some know overlay work on so many between. Showing summit they're going to do that because they have a special source of funding that makes it. It lines up its unparalleled one of their transit routes. And so they're actually going to do that. We're going to do concrete
work. We didn't want to. We didn't want them walk away because they if they have money to as a deadline that has to be spent next year and what what this means is the 2 us work will happen next year and the concrete work is going to have to happen. And 27. Ideally, we would do that. But order to meet Metro Transit's timeline to make sure that money doesn't walk at the same. All. That was the best we could come up with. So very excited to. To be able to partner with Metro Transit on So at this stage, the muster. The questions I was in a turnover within real quickly walk through common sense we should do a time check in my hand because feel like talking a lot more than anticipated
Northside 37 right now. And Collins, welcome. So 10. 37 we have until 10. 45, is that correct? You know, you have until we have until 11, 30, I think a lot of my colleagues would appreciate some time Think so. Please take your time. Go through the presentation on that island that you are. Expecting. Okay. So have some information to share about coming program. As this group are, you know, knows very well come frame. Local sales tax was approved by voters in the fall of 2023. You know they've busy working between then and now trying to determine exactly what that program looks like. Exactly. What are the projects, what order we've been be delivering them on what timeline and how do know how many start to turn this into a full program to been doing a lot of work like reviewing the cost, estimates that we prepared before we ever presented the idea
homeowners you know, forecasting that sales tax revenue ensure that think are going to collect all the money that we that thought we would. I'm going through a technical scoring of each of the projects and doing some program work associated with the comments We know that 20 year program. Is the idea and before the vote in 2023, this map for some this was presented to the public the message to the public was Approved by voters. These are the streets were reopened So that's our intent is to turn this map into projects that we can deliver. That Many of the lines on this map are kind of broken up. And individual projects, for example, very top table number 5 on on this map Arlington line is about 3 miles long. Generally
speaking, we think we can deliver projects up to one mile in length and a given construction season. And even that pushing the upper limit of what we can accomplish a single construction year. So that's an example where this line number 5 would be split into 3 different projects, probably delivered over 3 years. And generally speaking, we think we can deliver about 3 separate projects, each calendar year through the comments program the primary limiting factor in our ability to deliver projects as their own internal staff. And that's true. Even even leaning on consultants to help us with that work. We tink that's the we've got fairly aggressive pace for us to here. So this is this is all of the The numbers on this path are just identifying numbers are not signifying any sort of
priority order. Anything. question staff capacity. So if you know, we have projected dollars out for, you know, the next 2 decades. I'm just sort of wandering around. Maybe so that rhetorical, the shouldn't staff. Differently than and not rely so much on consultants like wouldn't it be better if we hired those folks and House? Kept by special. So we're we're doing both. We have used the comments and funding to hire a few additional staff internally to help with this. We ae also using generally speaking using consultants will increase our capacity to deliver projects. Changes how we deliver those projects, but it increases the speed at which we building projects. And what sort of amount Sirhan, thank you. And I think maybe I heard incorrectly, but
it sounded like. There was about a million dollars for Consulting Inc. And if that dollar amount is incorrect, just would be interested per project. How much you're spending on consultants. It just. Kind wonder the question like I get the sort of efficiency safe. But also if you're running a pretty team to bring in more people into the city to create. You know, a similar knowledge said and and across staff to build capacity of our staff as well. But internally and have that knowledge and house looking at decades of projects, I just sort of. Wonder if isn't that more of a preference because consultants have, you know, they asked that their hourly rate is based on other things that they're charging for rating that MAY be a or better down to the city. Right. So I
just sort wonder. Wouldn't it be better for us to take in more of those costs and house and higher hair staff for us to do that. And then having forbid we halth the load, the knowledge of the ecosystem, the folks that do these very specific jobs to help with other areas that. Looking at larger base hearing kind of connecting like conversation around there that many contractors even know how to do this type of work. And then for us to get these major projects for common sense, thinking about how we're building staff, knowledge for the city. Council, vice PRESIDENT Curse of the public works director. Not sure for a minute. If I heard correctly, the last part of your questions, what I heard in the
first part was why are we hiring outside consultants to do it for says staffing up to do? Is that correct? Yeah. Council, vice-PRESIDENT Members, their benefits to both of his Ruben Collins said we're doing bowl. We've hired additional staff and we're using consultants. There's there's injuring costs in all projects that are more or less the same percentage of a project cost no matter what. So you we estimate that, you know, can let's just say 30%, that 30% could be spent on a consultant or an internal staff. There's not really a cost difference on per hour basis. There so what we look at is when we if we have a 10 million dollar construction project, consulting engineering will be about 3 million dollars on that. And again, that could be spent on
staff for that could be spent on outside consultants. So the total cost will be 13 million dollars either way in te short term. There are big advantages of using consultants to be ready for these projects because we're delivering projects that are big in scope. Begun complexity big in terms of the public income of public impact on a very short timeline. And so internally, we like to spend 2 or 3 years on a full reconstruction. Some of these were more or less to live ring in 2 years and so hiring outside consultants helps to deliver helps us to deliver that project more completely on this timeline. So it's does. Does that answer your question? Yeah, no questions. Yeah, it does. I think just I think there's a really
strong case for u hiring people as well. In addition to then recognizing the short timeline and the sort of sprint that we have before us recognizing there are more projects in the pipeline. So how are the building staff and and there a sort of lke learning and swapping skills from the folks that can walk and ready to do these projects with that. How rebuilding around stiff staff, capacity expertise to have more of this to start weighing less on the consultants and more internal staff. But then haven't ridden. We're building like a really, really strong team. The seas of the city to help us taken more of these larger just kind of thinking through that. But I hear sort of like the sprint section requires us to stand up things really quickly. But then
recognizing that we have so many projects, how are then we thinking about ways tat as we build up our own staff of that knowledge said the less reliant we can become on external consultants. I think that would personally be great. And I think there's a strong case for and kind of more efficiency cross taffler across staff, learning lateral learning from each other that I think be really interested supporting. Council vice PRESIDENT To 2 things. If that's okay yeah, one is yes. We agree and we're in the sprint phrase. Yeah, a's right now. So we're absolutely sprint phase right now over time. I would agree with you that that's what we
this is a 20 year program, especially. We've learned in the last year and a half. What additional capabilities we will need. You know, we're learning that as we go each poject MAY need additional resources in areas that we can't fully staff up for. So Pleasant Avenue had a lot of ground water, you know, issues related to that we MAY or MAY not have that not case. We very Mell. We very MAY well might have them. So each project will flex a little bit in the short term. We're in the sprint to the long term. I agree with Yeah. This is person that explanation. We've got a question from councilmember. Think sure. It's a question sort of a comment. Say so we just open the Grand Avenue project, for example, we used outside consultants on the Grand Avenue project.
As someone who isn't outside design consultant themselves. It's very tpical for, you know, municipalities to hire design consultants for the reasons tat director for Chandra been described. You know, we have a 20 year. 20 year projects coming and some are going to be big. So we're going to be small. So it's hirings outside consultants that help you to be able manage that word in the city of Saint Paul Public Works provides a lot of services to our city, but I don't really see them as being a. We're not. We're not providing design. We're not designers that provide design services in the same way we can, but that we're not really built for that in the same way that a private company is to be able to, you know. To be able to fulfill those services in
the same way. That's we're more so providing continuity for these projects and hiring people as needed. That's just not really necessary. We believe the way that our our department has built. And so I think that really helps us. You know, be able to complete these projects as efficiently as possible. Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think for me and I have a very strong interest in how we reduce outsourcing in privatizing things that we should be doing on staff. Carrying us thinks her can. Have a question related to funding. It's not about the comments Central 4. Nicholas forced by the new person at a heat. The the metro delivery fee. Would be able to share in terms of the projection for that this year?
What does that look like? Is that meeting expectations at all? We're Could you repeat that question, sir? And that yet met row delivery fee like in terms of protection. We're hoping to get this year where yet with that hasn't have hasn't met expectations at all. Council member. I'm going to look to and to correct me here if I'm off. But it is not meeting our expectations. The t funding. program is I want to say that we anticipated about $740,000 this year and it's looking like that's going to be neighborhood of 400,000 as my recollection. So it's actually. That's that's concerning. We thought it was going to increase. I everybody thought was going increase, not not just Saint Paul, but, you know, everybody that
benefits from that was hopeful that it would it would. Money and continue increasing in future. Just a question for us is that reflected in our and the budget proposal to. Councilmember so we do have a line under 5 year plan that anticipas. What is planned for that. He ate that he a funding source. So it does show up in case greeting heal. I have this is different topic. Your and wondering if you all share a bit fall when it comes to the to the projects that you're sharing to us here. What is the collaboration look like with with pd and then bring that up and out. This is not a city project, but you'll have been hearing me talk a lot about rk streak construction happening in my ward and there's many more faces of that to happen. Going in towards 7, 2, pretty
soon here. And you know, we counts for Johnson and I we've heard a lot from businesses that are impacted by this. I think some of you have even a letter from the Black Business Network of Minnesota about some businesses on the verge of eviction. We've been hearing all about this from the Sapa, the 5, many other organizations all year round and it was really a miracle. What happens rest of the legislation where they approved 200 k for mitigation funds and that's just something we don't see a lot of. But I'm wondering what I meant when it we are doing the sort of projects. Are you hearing that sort of? That sort I would say concern from from our business communities, especially about their him, but the impact to their
business and and like what if I'm not sure what sort you know of collaboration happens deeply with npd. Our public works on this. But if you can talk a bit about that, that be helpful because I just don't want get into a situation like this again where, you know, we have businesses that are going have to close their doors down because of construction. The other thing I want to say, too, is that when I you know, recently we had a presentation from ufc county just telling us about the property tax trends and the outlook of that. And we're even seeing a decrease in tax revenue coming from or commercial base, which is concerning. And so I feel like the you know, it's our role in all of us here the table here to try keep our businesses doors open for as long as possible. Make sure that they're successful. Counselors from a council
member. I will start. I'm sure director Kershaw will have his his own comments here tat and welcome him to to interject I projects first and foremost of the things that we as public works, project delivery. You know, agents have control over is how projects are planned. So we tried to be mindful that whether it's a city project, the county Project Estate project that we we try to have. It influence on those projects to make sure that the duration short as it can be, that's broken up and the logical pieces rather than having an entire corridor that's close that at one time. You know, making sure that if a road is closed, its calls for a reason. So, you know, kind of first and foremost there, there's also the paradigm shift for trying to get all of our own projects and a partner projects that might have those types of business impacts too, really
bring business owners into projects and have conversations and just me. With them about, you know what, what can we do in planning or delivering this project, prticularly just during cnstruction to help ease some of those some of those pain points that are there. And, workshops like and Robert Street, one of the things that we we want to do, one Min dot those their their work here just on the other side of the river across from losses to make sure that there's a staging workshop to make sure that the project is is trying to those conversations. Want to, you know, when your deliveries coming and what are your big events and how what what concerns you have about that is really, really important. You know, very generally speaking that in terms of how
we partner pd, you know, we enjoy good partnership with pd and try to work with pd to understand, you know what those sensitivities might be. How we might be able promote things along the corridor during during construction. I don't Grand Avenue. Is really for us up good example you know, trying to develop business tool kit for projects that we hope to implement all of our business type corridor. My my voice is starting to feel me the the other aspect. I mean. So the legislature approved. Some funding for businesses, but if the end of the day and wonder what the effectiveness is of of that funding amount once it gets tribute, if it's a few $1000 to each business and I'm not sure. Whether that fixes things or if it creates other
problems. Just one of those kind of high-level concerns that I have related to how that money is dispersed and just isn't enough. You know, expectations go with that. I want to make sure Director Kershaw has a chance. If you want. it's really important question. And I think this year we arguably have seen 2 of the toughest corridors for commercial or most impactful. 3, if you include Robert Rice Street that the cunty did, we did a segment of Grand Avenue with a lot of businesses on it. And then Robert, the 2 most important things are not financial assistance to the business. Its coordination among agencies. So when we do traffic plans were not stepping on each other and we're trying to minimize conflicts between the work of different projects. That's number one. Number 2, which should be first is long-term planning as a business. You want to be able to know a few
years ahead if your property owner? Well, my parents need to be how do anticipate how do I afford an 8 that and what you saw on Grand Avenue was at least 3 years worth of planning for that. So we knew the businesses individually. They knew the segment. Just like Nick said they knew when things would happen. We were able to coordinate that with them. And most importantly, if you there and I was there the day of the opening and walk the businesses with Steve Dodge or construction engineer. The thing that was most impact helpful to tem was that there were somebody whose job it was as a consultant to be their daily to coordinate between the contractor in the businesses. It's a ton of time we can't staff up for this and that person's sole job was Grand
Avenue be the representative between Forest Lake Forest Construction did it, which did a great job and the individual businesses that at the end of the project I think was most helpful. There is a construction project always disrupt hole, but the more planning and more coordination. I mentioned Bryce Street because we think the county did a good job. There are there are some really tough situations like in front of the flooring store. But I I really think our county partners did a good job communicating with the businesses. They're in a tough situation. Thank you Just a follow-up I really appreciate the response of just how relate out the different that if the different things that you are considering when it comes to the projects here, I'm very
supportive of that. And just want want to share my support that that. Whatever is needed to to make you know, that happened in terms of like the conversations, the coordination of the collaboration and how we can now make the project happen as soon as possible. And under really short time frame so that we can complete a quicker. Think that is a huge win for all of us, especially the businesses that get hurt the most. And I do want share that when I have had conversations with men dot before, especially about the Archie project in my ward, they've often shared with me. We wish we could do with the city of part that public works does around having I can make a deeper communication with the community, but being very engaged and also even know
having flexibility, flexibility around signage list seems like, you know, the there's a lot of different departments out in other state. Other government entities doing work and that they're really admiring what is happening here at our city level. And so I just wanted to share that because I really appreciate the work that you all have done, especially in and just trying to intervene whenever it is a project that is outside of. Outside of lke this plan. You are sharing us here like you all are very engaged in that. And I I want to encourage you to continue doing that. And like overall on this, you know what I'm sharing her is really just an effort for us to continue making sure that that like pd and public works, that we continue that collaboration and also deepen it, too, because I know there's a lot of movement right now, the legislature to try and mitigate the impacts for businesses. I just think I had
meeting with our staff from from the it your office and they shared that with me about that. And I think it's helpful for us to be able capture what sort of impact there is to businesses, especially so that if the push for something like this at the state level, there's just even more justification to why the need to be supporting our county our cities even more with funding. I'd be happy that happy to spend more time in the on at another time. But we can follow up with you in writing on the things that we go through in terms of communication, the structure of that and the efforts that were taken with our other transportation partners to do this work better together. Thank you all. It's great. We got a question touched on Thank you know, incomes will bring actually to about the delivery fee. Question and in the forward. But it did actually spark a little bit because I
think the question was surrounding the actual I know we plan for the budget amount. You know, for these projects, but I am sure I am curious about how up to date or actual czar, just because that, you know, that. But the example of the metro delivery fee that $300,000 gap you know that that is there from what we maybe thought we would get for. So we actually got Sparta kind of follow-up from my end of just with the capital funding sources that we have in place for these from the lens of capital plan projects also from the from the comments sent projects. I am curious as to where we're landing on, but its actual is for these pojects as its to sense of how we track those annually. And then just what those numbers look like from
like, are we on track for? You know, the first year of the of these projects. As we're heading into the common sense timelines, just knowing that over the next 20 years, right? They'll be a lot of things surrounding inflation, trning changes, the cost to projects that, you know, unforeseen cost difficulties, challenges, things that we start to dig into it. It's like the gift that keeps giving. I am wondering how that relates to like projected funding that we MAY think we're getting from the state MAY be getting from from the city or somewhere local partners, investments and how that tracks over time. And I'm just wondering, like what ways do we as council members should expecting to get that like actual update
over time. So If the metro delivery fee consistently comes in under what is protected or if the for patients are not? Where would they need to be? Does that look like from a, you know? Number standpoint, McKay, appreciate going through the capital funding sources. But there are no numbers attached along to the presentation. So just wondering. I let me know if I'm a junior at council member council vice PRESIDENT, how do we adjust between what we want to have happen or think will happen? And then what actually comes Yes, part of reason for having a five-year plan, this is a high level answer, but hopefully it helps is to allow us to look out at a broader window even beyond an individual project planning that allows us to track. And where does phenomenal work? What are the actual amounts coming in doing that with common sense as well? There's
there's a really important. Spreadsheet that plans what we think the projects will cost versus the revenue that's coming in for says the state statute language, inflation numbers, you know, alone are wildly variable in that. So we can just tracking his best. We can. And then what always happens when in the context of the 5 year plan is we adjusted on a year-by-year basis when we know more about what is come in and what's available so we won't program a project unless we know we have the money to deliver that project. So maybe on a that fund anticipated 700,000. Council vice PRESIDENT Council member in the case that we really careful actually to not over program. So we're trying to be very conservative, acknowledging
all along that this might happen. So actually isn't. It's very disappointing because we had big desire to build fund other things. That would help with charging at whole bunch of other federal. grant opportunities but in the here and now it's it isn't as bad as as what it sounded like. Why said that, you know, looking or getting almost half of what we hope for we're just trying to be plentiful as we go forward. We actually had this conversation. You know what, let's here's I get a forecast. Every not only every 6 months for the state. And that's the forecast on what we get for state to forecast. What we get for metro delivery fee here that and I look at that. And I but let's b conservative. So not that the numbers are great, but they do a ton of work that, you know, can't even, you know, get my
arms around. But just knowing that this could happen. So, you to the short answer is we're at least in the first couple of years here until we really get our feet and arrests were trying to be conservative. Thank you. I appreciate Additional That's really helpful. Thanks, chair. Once he said the site you're gonna 10 45? We decided like That's just not going have. I'm curious, this is a vintage ace and played different question. So going back to the 5 year and think about funding that we receive or dn't receive. I'm also thinking that funds that we anticipate spending and don't spend. So we have these annual programs that were mentioned earlier, for example, lighting improvements 500,000 or railroad crossing safety improvements. 40,000. Those are just consistent amounts year-over-year in the
5 plan. My guess is that we're not spending exactly 500,000 or exactly 40,000 every single year and those dollars then go to 0. So my question is, if we don't do those dollars, just roll over into the next year and if so, can we get accounting of how much is actually in those funds right now? Especially for cause? PRESIDENT? The those funding line so that there are some some nuances as it relates cip. I know all. I think it's the railroad crossing the stairway category just as as too have been a lot of conversations related to can we be as responsible with with that money as possible. And there's been shift, least for some of those to have it just be a bigger dollar
amount. And one year or and you know, in targeted years rather than the the seeding approach small dollar amounts. You're over getting looked at by. Vice PRESIDENT Pence and PRESIDENT. Capital projects are multi year that money does roll forward. We do have a status report that we are preparing to send to share with you. That will have like the balances for all those projects. Thank you. Soon. Kuzma Yeah. I think that that will said this few different times. But just as the comment some of that information, especially over. You when it comes as capital plan, I think when we get into conversations around, whatever will come by clean conversations, too, because these projects are multi year. I do think that
having consistent sense report and those updates, especially on Actuals will just become more pregnant. And so I am really huge on tat. And I definitely think that as we're heading into budget cycles in future years. Citywide, that's going to have to be a continued conversation. But for sure, when it comes to just ways that we can, you know, plan for the pivot if needed. I think to the some of the experiences we've had on the east you know, goodbye to my word for it. Okay. We've seen not necessarily city projects rival state projects done differently, took longer than anticipated or started earlier than anticipated. And in so many different ways. Really disrupted entire communities. And so just thinking about how as a city that we can prepare for some of those icidentals or I funding were needed. If we find smething that needs to be handled more quick quickly, I just have an appetite for
that over the next 2 years as we're heading into this capital plan project, I think we can do that if aware of it before the end of the year. So just being able to some of those ongoing conversations. And I know I'm I'm excited about their project next year because we are involved in community. We do have the privilege of being able to talk to folks spent overall just like there's flexibility in the alley to that is. We recognize sometimes wonders can last longer they can last order than we think they could. Things could change and timelines and contractors availability we could dig into something that really realize that that's the that against significance giving situation. And so just identifying those as we head into some of these projects for me makes it more pregnant. But we also understand with the numbers
are doing simultaneously. Thank for important part of the comments of program for each of reach of the projects that were on that map. We went through a process internally create what we call a technical score for each one of those projects. And this graphic, it is showing knd what some of the criteria was that went into. Will score, for example, this is showing that. Pavement condition accounts for 35% of score. And there's a variety criteria here that we went through to try maybe take a first stab at how would we look to prioritize some of these projects, water, highest need to around the city. It's important to know and understand that the technical scores that came out of this process are just a starting point. There's a lot that goes into determining when projects move forward and what what
order a lot of a lot of considerations beyond Beyond the technical scores. We go through tat process. A big part of trying to determine what order the projects are delivered in has to do with what our partners are doing. Ramsey County Metro Transit all regional water utilities are all also doing work in the public right of way. And and our projects need to be coordinated with their projects. And there are some instances where we want to. Create distance between their projects in our projects that are 2 projects are right on top of each other, trying to work. There are other instances primarily with Metro transit where we are trying to schedule our projects at the same time as there are 2 real bus, rapid transit projects that MAY be coming in the city. And all of this is kind of an effort to make sure that
we aren't overburdening any particular at one time to make sure that our proper projects are taking into account. The 2 are routes that projects will need to use. We know I's always a problem when 2 parallel routes are under construction at the same time, it's really frustrating and we try to avoid that as much as possible. And so this this is all of this goes into. How would we after we have provided technical score on each one of the projects, all of these considerations about what our partners are doing and their ability to print funding to the city of Saint Paul. Are all reasons why we might deliver projects kind of out of sequence of what the technical score might suggest for water to be. In the coming program way we're presenting this and the what we call the programming plan, which is
kind of lengthy document that we are preparing to release to the public soon do quite a bit of work around communication on that. The way presented in that document is that the program is presented in stages, which is just kind of a fancy way of saying a 5 year period of time each stage. Stage one 2024 to 2029. That's everything that's already on our adopted 5 year plan. And for the most part, the projects in stage one. Projects that were sort of low hanging fruit for a variety of reasons. Some of them were already on our 5 year plan before comments that was ever approved by voters. Some of them are streets where we have already put a lot of effort into planning and design and engagement before coming was created. So stage one is kind you know, again, what we think are kind of those lower hanging fruit that we are able to mobilize fairly quickly at staff level. And then stay just 2, 3, 4, That's where we kind of get more into the kind
of the technical scores kind of driving. The order of the projects. Again, subject mention earlier about coordination with our partners. So stage one of the projects. And again, this is everything that's kind of already shown on adopted 5 year plan. This is amap. I want to go through these individually, but this this is a this is what we would anticipate through the program in the next 5 years. And, you know, one of the things that have kind of set as a priority for the program as this is this map does a good job of illustrating how we try to kind of spread the projects concentrate all the projects in the same neighborhood. At the same time. This is what stage to looks like and I want
to talk in particular about to the lines on here. You know, you're You're seeing segments of summit and segments of grand and that's a great example. And frankly, one of the more challenging ordination pieces with the concept program because those 2 streets are parallel to each other and one block apart. So they are the natural detour route for each other while they're under construction. I want to you know, be clear that we know when we look at a map like this, tat suggests there's construction happening on Grand and summit. We you know, it's very top of mind for us to know that we cannot have 2 projects on both streets at the sme time. One thing I didn't earlier, the next PRESIDENT Is there to bridge projects, including the Common program. One of those
as Grand Avenue over mil. One of those spend billion over the railroad tracks kind of just north of I-94 and both of those projects are happening in the stage. 2. Again, this is stage 3 will go through the and detail in stage 4 the purpose of the stage is presenting the project stages like this as opposed to saying it was reading a specific construction year for each of these projects that just to give us flexibility to to make adjustments to 20 years in the future. We know that a lot can and will change throughout the 20 year Lifetime of the comments program. Things will change on our Things will change from Ramsey Neither of those partners in particular are protecting their capital programs of 20 years. A fairly unusual task that that we're doing here to create a 20 year
capital program. And so by providing by reading the project's identifying them by stages that gives u the ability to have conversations with communities, businesses about approximately project will happen in their neighborhood to give them you know, some advance notice of when that will be taking place without kind of walking us for them or anyone into a specific construction here stage one again is detailed out year-by-year on our adopted 5 year plan. So neighborhoods and businesses will always have. You know, at least that kind of 5 year. Look ahead of where we are communicating and very specific instructions year. This is the full program map. As I mentioned there is document that we're kind of putting the final touches on it. Now. And we've kind of
publicizing this very soon. And then we're going to spend as a department for the next several months, kind you know, getting up to as many community partners as possible focusing heavily and district at first to present a plan. So the staging recommendations to our partners. I think that's the end of our universe likes. A question from the council PRESIDENT. Thanks, MADAM Super helpful. One of the questions I always have when I look at the 5 year and this is not specific to common sense, but I appreciate that. The overlap between some of what you talked about was common all of our street project and especially te consideration, the other construction that's happening at the same time. I think that that's something we get asked about a lot is
whether never pay attention to that. And it's good to be able hear on the record that we do. And in fact, we actually we organize projects. So as to minimize those impacts, sometimes that means your organizing them. So they happened at the same time so that the construction isn't happening in an area forever. I'm curious, going back to the 5 years plan not sure who can best respond t this. But I'm curious what changes have been made to the since the last time we because we just these are the next 5 years and we don't see. What we're planning to have happened in these 5 years last year and how that might have changed. So is there someone who can? Of interest? Yeah, that's a really question because PRESIDENT, thanks for question. So of course, the big change that
new on this compared to the previous versions as we've added 2030, so everything in the 2030 calling. Is new in this version. The changes that have happened and 26 to 2029, there have have not huge changes since the previous one. What has happened to some of the dollar amounts have been adjusted as we've done a little bit more estimating work some projects have shifted a You know, general generally backwards. The couple of the county projects have shifted years. And particularly I that's West 7th project is a good example of that just commission did the 2 projects in shifted back a year. So we've been kind of minor changes like that. And the question earlier about
kind of design funds that are showing up here. We're trying to be more mindful about scheduling those design funds. Earlier in advance that we're seeing a little bit more of that on this project. Looking and are there other significant changes? Notable on this track? Okay. So just a couple of projects moving farther back, but we shouldn't be seeing anything moving further up for anything new that we didn't see last year on that. plan except for 2030. No, I don't think I don't think so. Thank you. And I guess I'm just as a follow-up, I think. If there was something new being added that was not really on it have to vote on that. Is that correct? Bth Lee approving So Jets. So if there were. Changes, I'm just verifying with process to change your mind. It's a council member. Yes, that this document that is on screen now, this is approved by city Council annually. So right, so there is any changes or anything of that nature.
It would have to compress the council's think up to that question and that's why asking because they would normally happen us. We would adopt the next five-year plan See what a change from the previous 5 year plan so I do think that's why it's really important to share specifics about what's different from last time we to this because we are really adopting it all at one time. Including anything the change from last year. Okay. Okay. So that's helpful because I was like, oh, they can do. Thank Questions or comments from my colleagues. There's nothing else for us. Thank you for your time today in the presentation of what that we are adjourned.