Finance and Budget committees order. Good morning. Good morning. We have very packed schedule today. Really hoping to get a little bit of a lunch break today. Otherwise, you know, council members, please host yourselves. Today's going to be, I think a little bit long for best unseat. So. First one of everyone's favorite. Departments which you MAY or MAY not say every single time that apartment house. Bt we do have the illustrious prks and rec department coming to present to us. We have. Only department's director Denis Rodriguez presenting to us, believe, with a b support from staff. Very excited to kick the staff with you. So with that, I will hand over the presentation to thank you so much for being here tday. Awesome. Thank you. Council vice PRESIDENT Council members for having us here today to go
over the proposed parks budget just wanted to know before we start just all the awesome partners and Park staff that are here today. I see members of couple friends of Saint Paul Parks Conservancy. Thank you for being here. Obviously Park staff Brandon from the Santa Foundation. Welcome. Appreciate you being here. Partnerships. Make the world go around and parks can do without all of their support, whether it's volunteers, private fundraising, very much keep the system moving greatly appreciate the work that they do every day and keeping our system flowing as it should be planning to watch various budget proposals and can dig dig into anyone who has more questions and kind of a priest or the ones that are more self explanatory. It featured on the cover of our presentation
is the 2026 minutes or Yacht Club Festival which we are propped proud to host a varied island for the second year in a row bringing in over 100,000 people downtown Saint Paul over the course of 3 really just a strong example of parks being economic drivers for the city on. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention more local events like your town sounds the Jazz festival, the same poll get out and those types of events that I really destination type of events for a lot of peoples. Here's our agenda that will cover today giving the executive summary 2025. Budget recap update on recent initiative. Proposed changes along with the some other revenue changes. Now it looks and then time for questions. Just a quick recap on our vision mission, strategic plan Ingles really focused work around community health and well-being, race, equity and accessibility,
sustainability and stewardship creating vibrancy that circle access and making sure that people have the ability to recreate however they see fit. Here's a basic overview of the primary services and programs provided. By Parks and recreation again remaining very proud to lead a team in this work very wide ranging scope of what we do every day. Youth employment after school programming recreation for all ages. Forestry maintenance trades Oerations special event, safety, including our our signature facilities, Como Park Zoo and conservatory. Our golf courses are aquatics facilities ski. The arts again, just a very wide-ranging. A group of services that we support every year. Here's our organizational chart for contacts. Just to give you an
overview of the various work divisions within total Fte is around 641.8. And as you see, just kind further outlines the work divisions that have previously mentioned all scope of services that we do. Before we jump into the bulk of the presentation. I want to spend some time at the start, especially in light of recent tragic events in Minneapolis and just across our country to talk about safety, our public safety in our work. And although this is rec center focus, the supplies a lot to are quite facilities or regional parks under 184 neighborhood parks as well. Here on the slide, you'll see a rundown of various types of safety incidents reported recreation centers over the last year, including incidents involving firearms. We have continued to prioritize focus on safety protocols, staff training, community engagement. But what 26 facilities across the city. We
need to be intentional in our discussions about safety within or buildings. We continue to see very high this their ship at our centers. Was over 2.1 million visits to rec centers last year. Over 60,000. Enrollments in are over 2000 activities offered. 1631 you signed up in direct check program for the 24 25 school year. An additional 300 from last year. So all that to our programs are boom in our activities are capacity. Our aquatics facilities every dy, the summer, capacity or at capacity. But with the hefty focus on safety improvements in these spaces, specifically the wreck Services division has updated their parks rules and to provide staff more support. Created a tool for team members to respond consistently too. Unwanted behaviors and provided training for all staff and
standard response protocol. So I was pleased to see the data from a simple public library in their presentation that indicated a 40% drop in incidents since 2024. And that's investment in safety specialist within buildings. And just noting without similar additional investment in rec centers and aquatic facilities and the zoo, risk an increase in safety incidents in our spaces resulting in increased stress and exposure for frontline staff who are often entry level jobs. Folks dealing with a variety of of challenging things that they have to encounter on a daily. So we want to make sure they're supported. And I think it was very important to note that at the start of this presentation. The next 4 slides feature, an overview of the 25. 25 highlights across
our system. I won't read them all off, but few items worth noting. We remain in the top nationally in terms of par score ranking for 11 years, straight a right track program continues to thrive. Over 800 plus youth internships and a record 3,000 applicants. Major new play areas across the city, new facility openings growth and participation across all sports and aquatics. Thanks our investments in the free sports and aquatic some initiative we opened Pedro Park in North Community Center this year, which which both facilities just very strong community response. People have thrilled with those spaces for the time that they've been open. And - you boards continues to be a very strong program, welcoming its 5th cohort of 19 young people in the summer of 2025. And then known as noted 16% and wrecked check participants as well. Jumping to recent
investments. Again, thanks to mission over 20 youth teams partate in the wreck State tournament this and a during the last basketball season. That's the largest number we've spent in recent memory. This past spring, the city formed over 90 volleyball teams. That's a 14% participant increase and over 60 foot-tall team. So that's a percent participant increase as well. Our 18 you basketball participation nearly doubled. That's mostly due to changing the offer date to Thursdays and starting the season after high school basketball to provide opportunity for those who didn't make their high school teams but still wanted basketball opportunity 2025. Summer sports hosted 1018
athletes. Our Community first public safety programs on the way Kings team, which you got to meet a couple weeks ago on which an awesome presentation. And I think some of had a chance network with them on a boat recently for their that they had couple weeks ago. But we acquired 2 were in the process of acquiring 2 more vans to accommodate their growth in the number of Currently enrolled. The program around 133, which is almost doubled in the past 2 years. Noting the free swimming pilot at Jimmy Lee so far in 2025. We've had just under 3,000 participants and for you swimming lessons across the city. That's 1000 more than our yearlong gold in just the first 8 months. And then again, North Community Center continues to see how center is becoming a fixture
for programming community gatherings. New Hill here a little bit more about utilities and trees later in this presentation. Jumping to the general fund proposed changes. This is just a summary of the pros changes to our general fund. Obviously quite a change compared to te investments we made last year. But I'll get into each of these change it into more about each of these changes on the next few slides. So noting first is the rec center and hours reduction. The slide in the next are challenging for Obviously, it's a tough conversation to have any time we need to reduce service hours at a recreation center facilities. Not something we want to do. However, in this challenging budget climate, we have to be creative to avoid layoffs and or wholesale closure of a facility. An option that we just don't want
to consider. So we can cut conducted a comprehensive assessment of visits across time at each of our 26 rec centers to gain a big picture, understanding of our peak and off-peak visitor ship by location. We're happy to share that data with you. From there. We worked to determine how we can effectively reduce service hours with as little disruption as possible to the users who rely on our facilities. These reductions largely included times that have lower overall attendance in visitor ship and do not impact any program. Any programming only drop in use. So noting here, joint use rec center. We night our weekday night, our same situation here is the previous slide shifting weekday closures at the sites listed here from either
08:00pm or 09:00pm to 06:00pm. The center's listed on the slide typically see a significant reduction in the use in the evening hours once wrecked check is complete. I sorry to cut you off. Got a question somebody else. Thank you. Chair Tim director of for the previous slide the Am hours. Do those rec centers that also have libraries connected to them or those aligning with hours. And a lot of libraries open at 10:00am they? What the case yesterday would be alignment with Highland as an example. Both the full-size opening at 10 o'clock. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. Just to close the slide noting that in the evening hours once wrecked seconds for the days where we see it a significant reduction. But this model allows us to keep sports practices or other plan programming in place. But the senators themselves would be close to an available
for drop-in entries. So if you're thinking in the winter time, when we have to host all of our basketball practices in the evenings and things we can still do that. It's just more of a controlled that requires a lesser amount of stuff. Jumping to recreation center cleaning, reducing the frequency of park worker hours cleaning inside recreation Center facilities utilizing other onsite resources as available. That could be as an example. You're taking out the trash or you're my thing of the floors or any kind of day-to-day tasks that you would have for senator, usually you have maintenance coming in in the morning or sometime during a second shift to take care of those things. This would shift some of that responsibility. The on-site rec center staff in order to some costs. The focus will be the target of facilities with
reduced hours, facilities will experience some level of party. Jumping to are vacant office assistant one. Looking at as a reduction position was held bacon to help pay for staffing overlap. So if you think of things like fmla paternity leave or things like that, eliminating this bacon, Ft was prioritized over any other potential layoffs extended leaves are on plan staffing. Disruptions would require our department to not backfill, thereby potentially causing some programmatic or facility our impacts. So if you think of the community, recreation specialist or facility lead that runs a rec center has to take a fmla leave. That often puts us in a tough position of how we cover that does effort and go on to another existing employee or is there a supervisor has to step in and cover for certain
type. Time period like Those are challenging decisions to keep our buildings operational forward. Design center for context is multi department impact in terms of the reduction design and construction team within parks is funded by project. They're not a part of the general fund but without a funding source used to fund planning design time without a dedicated project or funding source, this reduction leaves only a minimum budget for requests. So prioritization would be challenging. Oftentimes when there's a public works poject or a water project who overlap with something parts related where we need to consult. And that's usually where funds are pulled from on here. So taking this out cause a bit of strain for us. If we have to dedicate
more time to specific projects from our partners like public works or water. Utility increase. This has been a multi-year effort to get the budget for utilities For more than 80 buildings to be structurally balanced. After almost a decade of no budget increases, noting that we're not just increasing our budget to keep pace with inflation like we're also doing much better in reducing our consumption and carbon footprint as well. So projects like the multi phase 2, a thermal project at the Como Zoo. High efficiency, hvac projects and boiler replacements at facilities across the city. And even our first rooftop solar projects at North Community Center and from town means we're also reducing our demand to help mitigate utility costs. That we know will continue to go
up. The slide shows our historical budget to actual performance, but noting that the slide always spurs a little confusion as the final numbers for accounting purposes. Always look a bit different than reality as does an amazing job. Balancing budgets across city departments. W'd like to see these variances at 0. But the reality is even with the shifts a fast makes as part of our year-end resolutions Noted at the bottom, even the revised budget is going to be off each year due to unforeseen expenses and or spending that changes compared to projections U.S. Final expenses come it. So if you think about unaccounted for costs that we have to tackle copper wire. Fleet abatements. Unplanned emergency events like we had a fire at Kabul, golf course. And we had to
replace structure. Those types of things add up over time and we have 2 account for them towards the year end. Jumping to slide 20 revenue overview of government funds. The show's revenues from our non enterprise funds. We're continuing to look at ways to drive new revenues without creating barriers for programs and services. Happy to share that como classes and fees are doing quite well compared to the past years, I sure that our committee meeting earlier this yar, we're getting a lot of support from Comeau friends for looking at all things the zoo and conservatory in the next year to develop long-range plan for the future. Appreciate their
partnership and support network on the Intergovernmental Revenue That's largely funding that we receive from the state to assist with regional parks, maintenance and support. I brought this up a few times in previous meetings and it remains a top priority for the city to advocate to fix. But the state has not met its statutory obligation for many years for regional park funding. That is a issue that impacts regional parks across the Metro. But specifically Saint Paul is that that burden ends up being taken on by office and ultimately the taxpayer. Although you'll see in 2023, we did receive once small-time bump that helped catch us up in a few spots reality is that we're receiving only about 20% of
the revenue that we shouldn't check directly impacts as mentioned, our regional parks throughout the city. We'll continue to work with our legislators on that to get us where you need to be the but building in park, maintenance and support suffers due to shortfall. Enterprise funds which are large legal fees and permits ges What what a change a few years like coming out of the pandemic. Golf has completely turned around as the industry has rebounded since 2020. We're also seeing a strong increase in commissions from our leases that city House income, a lakeside pavilion. Expect these trends to continue and our staff will continue to look at creative ways in generating and working to increase revenue streams across the system that could be increased vendors within
regional parks. That can be how w leverage our underutilized facilities. Lights at golf courses for driving ranges. Things like We will look at. Or activity performance fund overviews provided reports in previous years. A supplemental materials just because of the volume of what we have across accounts. But add more transparency to how we budget and track performance for about 100 of our business lines and accounting unit. So if there's the tears, we consent after this presentation at on, that will help us. The feedback we received, I think over the previous years have been very positive. You know, it's a large content of of information. So can be a bit overwhelming. So if you have any questions, when we send those things are want to see a specific account, just let us
know. But your summary in spending this side shows adopt a spending by fund and what's being proposed for 2026, couple notations be under proposed budget reductions. Most changes or technical accounting shifts or adjustments. But 2 other bigger ones. I wanted to one, the solid waste worship it shifting a couple to use that we that were determined by public works off fst, too, be eligible to be funded up under the city's recycling. It's always fun from the general fund to that fund. The second know is emerald. Ash borer slash forestry. Now that we're closing out ab and the port funding partnership that we had after 5 years. We're shifting all budgeted for he's
back to the general from the supply and maintenance special fun. But you see such a big difference there at the end. The scenes are reducing the supply maintenance fund budget and needing to increase the general fund budget to match up with the difference between what we've been carrying each year. And what is the actual spending. So we've added a note to clarify this. But in short. Since we've been increased budget over the last 5 years to match up with actual salary costs. We have a one time catch up as we bring those stuff back. That's covering. Correct myself, if I'm wrong, but cost of living raises and all those other things, correct. Here's a breakdown of our effort to ease by fund over the last several years. Again, the number of tchnical items
here, but the net result from all funds is a net reduction of 3.0, 1, 5, 1, 2, years compared to 2025. You'll see on the next slide. A bit more on exact changes. So for all these Ft changes noting that we will not have any layoffs, rather will be focusing on ft reductions in either vacant or part-time titles, highlighting few as there are a few technical ones were budget. Balancing accounting shifts on me. No real impact of people. Programs or services has already discussed. We have the forestry Fte is coming back to the general fund from the special fund. We have 2.5 Ft is moving from the general fund to the recycling and Waste Fund. 4.5, 6 recreation and maintenance after he's been reduced due to our proposed budget reductions. These are largely part-time titles without any layoff impacts. And similar to public But reduced scale. We're
adding to have to use to better and manage our common projects which saw I will talk about it a little bit, but specifically new traits position and account. All the changes netting. A reduction of 3 point. 5, 1, t's across all fronts. Slide. 26 personnel budget. Probably a little repetitive. But here is a further breakdown of the costs of those lefties that I just outlined. Contractual salary increases and onetime catch of forestry salary increases from not increasing over the past 5 years is largely driving total net increase. Jumping into common sent highlights to just again. Want to thank you all for the support of the common sense sales tax work. We're playing. We're shifting from progress today to what we're planning for next year for Common said in our capital budget
portfolio, this list should be a refresher from what we shared earlier this year with council on upcoming projects. All these projects are listed on our website. But you'll know your focus. Our focus remains on fixing and improving what we that is always been the core focus with sales tax and tackling deferred maintenance and making sure that we're catching up our overall portfolio and the work that is urgent. So that's your hvac repairs. Roof repairs, courts playgrounds trail, work, asphalt, all of those fall under the category of deferred maintenance. Some exciting field rejuvenation projects that are in desperate need and not on this list. But noting that we're hopeful be closing the phase. One of our. 16 million call Como Geothermal Project next year. Huge milestone for that facility in a multi-phase project. Also want to note
that Cip remains a critical part of our capital bdget plan leverage and matching up sources from Cip common sense or our nonprofit partners that are out there fundraising for us to help get projects on accelerated pace is very much a priority. Parks owns and manages 70% of the city building asset portfolio. So we appreciate your continued advocacy and support maximizing the city's investment for multiple available capital funding sources. It is very much a. A project. Our overall project that we look at from a variety different lenses, whether that's federal grants, state funding other funding sources cip. In addition, the common sense. Jumping into It's for all intents and purposes e ab, we're done with public ea be
which is great, acknowledging and thanking Todd Hurley and the leadership at the Port Authority for helping bring this create a funding partnership to the table and solve ye. Be on right away. While getting thousands of new trees in the ground. Private e ab will remain a challenge. Our concern as home and hona homeowners address their trees at a different pace, which is where abatement procedures in place provide some limited sport. But it's not enough to support the the increase that coming across the entire city. On the 2026 budget has are forced to stash us. But it does not include any additional investment. I was a difficult decision for for a variety reasons as we work to prioritize, holding spending flat as much as possible while not closing any wrecks
facilities or reducing hours any further. But this slide is a refresher from last year where we show you what our money buys compared to where our ideal funding scenario. It's so our industry recommendations that would have us address backlogs and reestablish pruning and planting standards across the city. So we have a few slides to get into that more detail, but highlighting as it stands out right now, our current budget does not have enough funding to replant every tree that will have to be removed. Because this is a big deal. Bottom line, we know we don't have enough funds to replant every tree that is removed. Moving forward as the table shows, we're going to have to
remove over 2000 dead dying or disease trees next year. But we oly have funding to stump and replant about half of - those streets. That means most homeowners, homeowners would be waiting a minimum of around 5 years before a tree would be replanted after removal. It's a long time. That's fr beyond the remove and replant within a year ago that we had indicated with with our the ap Thank you. And we we've got a question counsel. Thank you, director, because for I think this is for the the helpful slide. My question really stems from. How if at all changes with the passing, if there you know, the pass of the Tree Preservation Ordinance, Angeles. Thank you about that. Is that? Timeline fit within intent of where the ordinance allies, especially when 2nd half shunt happens in the essentially what we need the sharing of what we're passing
would basically mandate trees you know, are preserved. Even in the midst of the construction pieces. Don't know how the 5 year time line works with that. What would be needed to change that or to meet that need quicker. If you and We basically make us like ordinance that's implying that people will be able to see the tree canopy restored. Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember, it's a great question. And as we work towards a final draft of that ordinance for to review in the coming weeks There are still some budget in patients related. Even if that ordinance in effect, that MAY address some of our construction related tree removals of other things. But for our that ash trees any type of tree That need removal, I think the average 2000 removals a year for anything is dead. It still
creates a backlog for us. So. Summary it will help it will not solve the problem. Yeah, also like to add to that point puning is particularly important as we see certainly are storms that rolled through. It creates incredible strain on our forestry department to respond to all the right incidents that we have. But also just like having a regular budget to prune in 18 or trees also goes a long way for certain that prevention prevention point and just maintaining a healthy tree canopy to begin yeah, I really appreciate that question of sort of like. As we look out in front of us and that there's interest in this tree preservation ordinance, water surges that. The cost associated to it, recognizing they are presenting a budget
that. That contains half of the costs that we would even need to remove or like replant canopy that we're going to be removing tax year. Right? There's 2000 trees. We have half a budget repair or replace. Yeah. Thank you. Council vice PRESIDENT Raising this issue. We see this as the start of a conversation for a larger issue that we need to solve. And you're right by residents making sure that we can catch-up in our work yet. Your Johnson. And this is a follow-up. I think this is like another piece of where it will be really helpful to see the. You know, like 2, 3, 4, 5 year plan and the 10 year plan just as we plan ahead for certain things. I feel like this can be ued to be a priority for the city. And I think it's been echoed multiple council members. I know for me this is important
to my residents as well. On the side. We try to keep. As many of trees for something for the peace being able to have shade spaces and a neighborhood and a lot of our trees, our old folks to really take pride some of them I have with the 2, it's a lot they talk through just what the plan. You know, so I think it would be really helpful to know that futuristic vision of it, knowing that we would have to do it incrementally, knowing that. You even to all the things you've shared, there are budget constraints. There's gonna continue to be budget constraints. But I think being able to just see like where we would like to go will be helpful as well. Vice PRESIDENT Councilmember great point and that's something that we can send a what I would call like
a 5 year outlook with different funding scenario is tied to and the impacts the various funding amounts in terms of backlog are or how we catch up. We can definitely thank compound that point or Johnson, always appreciate a new list of kind of what the constituents they represent. Because on the east north and we have some of the worst react when he scores in the city. So as we think about what does this program look like as the continue to implement if we were to implement this program and it sort of a phased approach where we prioritizing that tree replacement. But within the context of the tree Canopy, chair just should director to so. Looking at the slide correctly. It looks like there's basically a 5 million dollar gap for we need. And so 2 questions for 2025, I don't
recall. I counted our tree. Funding compared to like with ideal full funding was that was needed. And then also. I think this is probably similar to counselor Johnson's question. But what is, you know, what are some of opportunities for funding? To close that gp? I mean, that seems like a pretty large number for us to make up for just in our city budget alone. And so I guess I'll be thinking about, you know, what are some of the opportunities or, you know, maybe our legislative agenda looks like we're really relying on federal grants. But I don't know if you know the answers to those questions. But those are just some of thoughts cause of us PRESIDENT Cult member. Those are great questions I can say for the 26 funding proposed compared to last year. It is the same. So so noting that. And then to your point, it's like, yes, we look at all the different
funding options and sources out there. But your point is correct. It's like if there's a federal grant that we can apply for, we will do I think it's also a good plug to note Cip and that 330,000, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think that's changed quite some time And over a decade. And I think just exacerbate this point like we've all. Her own Ted pandemic. But like our tree system is still sort of cleaning up the remnants of bet is a treat pandemic and its partially because we sort of like somebody diversity and what we planted around the city. And that's, you know, not ours. To claim in terms of problems, but certainly the solutions that we have to bring to the table. So hearing that even in the last 10 years that increase of the city is
bringing forward for just the main maintenance of our trees. But in addition to the funding being limited coming from the federal government, even the to respond to a tree pandemic. We still have more work to do, but also in that same sort of breath, gratitude and congratulations for parks and Rec's Department for doing such an incredible job responding to pandemic. So thank you so much. And it's really good to hear that we're kind of on the tail end of it. So thank you so much. Appreciate Thank you. Noting here that this is a graphic, just expand on some of the questions that were And, you know, this item, this graphic shows the removals versus planting ratio and where we have a gap and the ideal funding scenario would allow us to proceed with a one to one ratio within a year. Think it's worth noting if you
look at our friends across the river and their budget for trees, almost double what we have with the support canopy. Just to put that into context for a similar Tree inventory program and how they manage. Yeah. And I think this is question for chief budget officer commit. I think then kind of give in there's an interest in like sources in be interesting to see Minneapolis is pulling their sources from. I'm sure sort of similar similar services, but also like the amount of the getting more info grants or they can have a team or from their certaintly capital. It. Thank you. In just one more item on this. Just a note on to expand on on Councilmember Joe's question on. MAY be worth it to go back to the port 40 as well and talk about potential scenarios to sport. Trees across the city, getting
more trees in the ground. They were obviously a pivotal partner attacking the ad and getting us to a sustainable pace. So if there's open conversation, that's something that we should Before we move in to wrap up in questions. I wanted to give him not to our team, all of our downtown community partners, businesses and residents who helped increase activation and bring more vibrancy to downtown this past summer. That's very much partnership work with the Downtown Alliance of Saint Paul Parks. Conservancy are designing construction team, our operations called police many others creating more people reasons for people to visit our parks throughout through intentional creation of on site features. So here on this slide, you'll see a list of some of the events of
activations that brought people into our downtown parks, too. Grab abite to eat. Listen to music. Explore art. Take a fitness class or play with their dog at the Kellogg Mall Dog Park that we implemented over the summer. All those partners did such a great job. I failed to mention the music can't group as well. Helped us activate Park. But really just a strong partnership strategy, too. Keep all these parts busy in vibrant over the peak summer months. And it's worth noting to a survey of visitors to Kellen Moore Park sowed a decrease of feeling unsafe during the time that that project pilot was active in neighboring businesses and residents and even hotel guests reported satisfaction with feeling able to utilize that part for breaks and
lunches or walk service. It's a after work. So just a really strong partnership that I wanted to plug. We close out this presentation. Ad the questions and discussions slide. Just to wrap noting again, just a summary of 2025 challenges and items that we're tracking. Public safety downtown Park activation Forestry has discussed our key components as we look into next year I'm the forestry piece just noting street reconstruction with the comments funding for public works is starting to ramp up as is lead line replacement switch. Again, just further exacerbates the forestry and how we keep pace. Should any trees have to be removed during those projects, is
always a likely scenario for various reasons. So adding that layer in as well to the fore street conversation. Happy to stand for any questions. Appreciate your country. Thank you. Any other additional thoughts or questions for yes, we'll go church on Sunday from her home. Thank you, director, because I just made an oath to myself as well. Mentioned this to you and then also ask. Effort additional follow-up to not sure if off hnd when that getting ready to review the eatery budget. We actually somewhat across the right track transfer that happens outside of the eatery budget. I can't recall the exact offhand, but it does go to right track programming that I was actually wondering if you knew what that funding was. 4. Come come play. Bass
PRESIDENT Council members, the eatery transfer helps to I believe it's cool your program. We have to double check to get back to you. But that transfer is one that we've also advocated to increase. We do have capacity to expand various areas of of right track. I think that transfers is largely stayed constant, but it helps to support the that helps to support that work. Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember, I think Brad is correct. That will follow up with additional information. Yeah, I would. As a follow-up, I that would be really great. One of the things we'll be talking about at jury this year is just learning a little bit more about the transfers that are based on our general fund, our loan Enterprise Fund and then Housing Trust Fund. And there's a few different
options that we think to transfer out over about most about 2 million dollars a year. And this is just one of the items that came up until I know some of leadership staffer, ha staff or counsel Stephen be reaching out just to the Riggins about this one. But that's usually the context forward. And so, yeah, the follow-up would be appreciated as far as just you know what it's for. I think be really helpful to know the prep, the partnerships that we have. And we're funny. So thank you for that. Thank Appreciate it. Thank you, Chair Ken, thank you so much. Structure gas to suspend obviously a very challenging budget here actually hearing that all of the highlights of last year and the thought and care that's gone into some of these proposals moving forward. question is about the rec center and hours reduction.
You know, As we think about the possibility reducing hours for exit as one of the things I'm curious about, you know, hand great would happen to have a have a conversation with us later on. That is just what we know about ethics of folks were using. The brexiters at you know, earlier in the morning is that to that end to families of the tend to be seniors, any sort of all he data that we might that really helpful. Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember, thank you. I was gonna say the key word is qualitative it. My opinion my teens up very much. If you think your seniors that like to walk, I'm a walking track in the mornings or MAY be the young family and might want to come in early to use the gym when it's quiet or things like that, which, you know, dring
that 9 to 10 o'clock can be, you know, I'm the only person in the gym and I get it all to myself. Right. Feels good. And I like it because it's like there's value to those things. But I think that is the it's been answer of ask a follow up and then we will have children. And then sure, just I'm just as a follow-up. Can you just talk about a little the distinction between sort of like? Walk in and programmed attendance fr says like Programed attendance than just thinking through sort of like people that want to walk in and just families. The trapper says folks that make you walking in to need less program hours and how it might impact rec center hours. Yeah, couple vice PRESIDENT. So the difference between like
program or drop and uses the way I would define it something I run a program. I registered for his program cite some showing u at a specific time I registered for an art class or a basketball camp for. Part of a basketball team. So I know that I'm coming in from 6 to 7 every Thursday, right? Dropping news is the family or the young person adult? What have you that would just want to show up at the rec during normal business hours and say, hey, is there any open gyms or hey, can I use the bathrooms or I'm just going to out in the hallway and use the Wi-Fi, right? Like that's that's drop in use. And that's ultimately what we'd be impacting the. Joint use Rec center weekday night We've still be open for that pre-registered programming
opportunity for participants. But you want to drop in and use the WiFi or other things that it Available. And that's strictly staffing resource, right? If we're just on a preprogrammed schedule requires less staff. For managing both drop in use and structured programs and services. This is great. And so just with that of the sounds like. That decision being made around joint use rec center, mostly impacts weekday night hours and not the morning more and some morning times just like it is not open for even programming. They open at programming starts. But the week Nate says they will be open for program Senate Correct. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. The line is truly a mentor.
Justice thank you. Chair are. Vice PRESIDENT Director Andy. I really, really appreciate the detail that and the slides. I would say this is probably the best presentation terms of a breakdown of each budget item. i just want you to go through your slide. So I do have like 3 questions. If that's okay. Ari at the slides, were there. I request a coming from. So on slide 6, you had started off with the safety incidents and bringing recognition to some of the challenge is taking place. You didn't mention good example like to safety specialist at our libraries be a potential investment. Is that something that you're
proposing or is that something that's just a highlight? I think I think we need to look at a public safety framework for the entirety of the Parks Department. Obviously the rec center's given the volume of facilities that we have are a cre focus. But the risk for MISTER Biden account for aquatic facilities or the Como Zoo original park system. I think safety specialist would help specifically with facilities. But I do think there's a broader conversation about how we tackle safety within regional parks and manatees across our system. I will say that we continue to talk with police about what revamped park security model could look like for the future. But obviously that requires investment. Is there a possibility you have dedicated officers to regional park Surrey, some of those
neighborhood parks as well. So in summary to answer your question, I think this is a conversation starter to bring to the table. I don't have a concrete aspen. It is something that we need to prioritize. Thank you. I did see it in your proposed budget. I'm looking for the slide, but that was something I just didn't know 5 or ws It was a slider Levin community. First public safety, public safety budget, 280,001 time. So is that the U.S. That's a conversation starter and them out? Yeah. And just to clarify what with that. Thank you. Council. Vice PRESIDENT Councilmember off just fair fight with that is that was a one-time costs from last year to support the Awakenings program. Secifically banned transportation. So the 2 vans mentioned in the presentation
that they need to operate. The program is what, that $208,000 supported. Okay. And then the way King's program is their roll over for that ours that one-time funding are we don't see that investment for next year. Council vice PRESIDENT Council members of no changes to the Awakenings program. So continue to roll to following your. And then my last question, I really do appreciate you highlighting the need for investment from the state and regional is particularly around our products. And I definitely want to support that. And I wish agenda coming up. Was wondering, is there or like cost estimate how much we it should be. It is up asking from you whether it's regionals at the state or defense. Council, vice PRESIDENT Council members, we can
certainly follow up with that information. I'd say historically correct, correct me if I'm wrong, they're supposed to hit threshold around 40% higher little But I think for the regional park system or at 9? So that's that's a pretty big disparity like I said, if ultimately impacts in carrying the wight the operation and maintenance of those basis. And then had when claim these. Very unrelated, hard pivot. But in my in my many my residents in the family's really, really appreciate the free swimming classes. Really appreciate the free youth sports. So I'm super excited to hear that. That's going to be continuing. My question is just more. So if I can you, is
there a breakdown of what type of sports? Know there is a we have a Maasai purpose field at Jamie Really excited to see a lot of soccer But there has been a question of whether we're going to see football as a sport back into our facilities. Just wondering if a foot pass part of that 3 sports you can get that break down. Yeah. Cause a vice-PRESIDENT Councilmember. We can definitely send you at what I would call data breakdown of al the different sports offerings that we have across the city and by Sen we do offer flag football on and then tackle football has been interesting. Kind of dynamic
over the last couple years. A lot of it is supported by neighborhood associations. So I think of Frank Town football, the less I boosters and others specific to your board. We do have kind of a grassroots program that we've had 4 tackle football. Jimmy that is led by Malik Davis and other community members and just really trying to that program up and running it sustainable over the past few years. Tackle football numbers have decreased for a variety of reasons. Being safety to being costs of equipment, other things. So just a variety of different variables going to that specific sport, but would be happy to follow up with you on where we're at. One specifically. And quick call CHAIRMAN's question. The statutory obligation for regional parks obviously is not meeting both just like what they're required to pay us. And we
have a lot of unmet need. It's not a part of currently our legislative priorities. And I'm sorry, it's just it's such a list. But do we actively lobby to Council vice PRESIDENT, I would say yes, it something that comes up every late legislative session. And, you know, there's a regional park delegation, the Metro regional parks agencies, me weekly throughout session every year. So it is a talker that is always raised. Brought to the state where it lands in terms of priority for kind of gets lost in translation will so. I don't know how to move the needle but I do. I would say that other regional park agencies across Metro feel the same way. I appreciate Thank you. Chair director
of U.S.. I real question really think a little bit more about the am hours reduction. They are proposing a couple of questions. One aksed for doping at 6.30, in the mornings. That does that. So if you're shipping firm. 10:00am. So is that just for someone new that's hppening at Oxford are you shipping from 6.30? Vice PRESIDENT Councilmember. That's a good flag. And a great question on the kind of plays into the 2 sides of the building. So okay, the opening the facility and that's for last month. So that would continue. But the rec center side so like We'd be staffing. The aquatic side of the building by aquatic staff of the wrecks underside like fitness room, walking track would be unavailable until. And it's that site is typically available till
09:00am right now. Okay. Okay. Appreciate that. That's a confusing. Want thank you And then my other question. Similarly, like because I was mapping out where these rec centers are with the closure for the production of one hour. Do you feel that there's opportunities for residents to go to a different rec center? Eventually during that the time? And maybe don't know the answer that. Now with those just something else that came about cup of ice, president cult them these sites reflected here. What Classified in our world, the top that are open longer hours. So the majority of other rec centers would open in the afternoon. So to answer your question, limited to probably not in terms of other options that are out there. And I have to have Thank Council, PRESIDENT
And director because again for just being able to be transparent, I think through this. My heart hurts. Every time I see how I would mentioned in any way, especially surrounding our reductions. Part because I know that some of folks that only place that they have there outside or and or facilities because they don't have the apartment complex next or doesn't have any sort of space for them. And I'm just wondering. The traffic Could you share a little more about some of the decisions surrounding these particular? Rec centers and then as a follow-up, can I see you'd like some of the accidents that have face reduction over the last few years? Unlike which because I'm just curious if going back to the same rec centers. For reductions year after year or for sharing the across the city. I feel like I see I thought I see how it
feels on the list. A couple a few different times. In other conversations on the phone from the past. And I'm just wondering like and it's not It's, you know, I guess part for advocating fr those that are in my lord. But across the city as well. And I'm just curious as to what goes into them and we have or 7 having similar conversations of the library because we have some that are seeing that Arlington Hills is on that list libraries and rec center Battle You know, I you know, as on this list as well, north frogtown, so like several different the side parks rec's libraries this year on the proposal for reductions in one way, shape or form. And I want to know. One, goes into it, but also how often that happens. And if that's reoccurring theme of the last, like maybe
3, 4, years. Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember noted here you those are great questions and we can certainly follow up with data for locations and kind of how we got to the decision points that we did. I will note that, you know, to your point or question about the last couple years on, you know, specifically over the last 4, if you count like to our American rescue plan infusion like we actually expanded at a lot of sites across the So in this instance, we are scaling back some of those commitments that we previously And again, focus on some of the what we call 99, help And this is the first time in my recent memory where we be impacting joint use locations across the city. So, yeah, again, tough decisions, not something that
we're particularly fans of. But I'm going to say the least impactful in terms of not laying folks off or so but happy to follow up. And could you itemize those things for me as well So I come this close, like how like if, for example, the joint use to the finals, but like what is a joint use cuts Pacific for high with for specific for the live concert. The rec Absolutely. And I think what would be helpful to also provide you is the relationship with the school district and the costs that are incurred in terms of agreement noting how that kind of functions from a relationship or financial transactions standpoint, that would be great. Thank you.
I think just one last thought. And then to put on the spot for a celebratory moment. But I think that is the theme of this year, right? We are seeing. Department directors and city staff members offering u some really difficult decisions and cuts that we all feel deeply in in our neighborhoods and sometimes some more than others. But I think the thing that I really value about certain the approach of what's happening this year is that the main focus right now like we heard at our budget engagement session is that residents really feel that constrains of city services and want us to ensure that we're investing in our city staff because that pothole, that stock getting filled or that rec center that maybe isn't being off for the thing that they want any more as a direct impact to the
budget that we passed. So tough decisions, but prioritizing keeping keeping staff like we did during the covid year's is is a value that I also share. So I just appreciate while this is really difficult parks and rec budget tat focusing on maintaining staff. And so kids can see that that frequent face every time they walk into the rec center. The basketball coach yar-over-year those connections as we think about the Awakenings program, too, are just incredibly important as we think about the value of those relationships byond titles and the on certain. Also, a rec centers. The last that I have for you is. We
have a ton our wreck rec teams that go to state tournaments for different sports. And I just would like you know, respectfully submit that I I'd love to get north and championships here. So and I'm other rec centers as well. That MAY mean it is kids that are unable to MAY be accessed their school programming that are really like. Throwing down and you have winning the championships for rec program. So those are kids that where this is such an invaluable space for them. If they're not serve accessing traditional pathways of just huge, huge lifting up the fact that we had over 20 basketball teams went to the state rec tournament. And that is just I think the highlight that is like 10 on. So thank you so much for the time. We've got a
lot of follow-ups. Will we've taken strong notes and we'll follow up with all the specific asks. And thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. Council vice PRESIDENT. We'll put that on JUNE as performance goals for. Yeah. You know, you are knowable and told to get North and a championship. Thank you. Thank you, Andy. We're going to take just a minute to transition. And numbers, please host yourself today. We hopefully a little yes, please do. a little extra time potentially. We've got 2 hours for this. I'm hoping that it will take as much time. But I also know that there is usually a very robust conversation around in this department. So we'll be prepared and I see folks filling in. So we'll give it another minute Please host yourself. I will be attempting
to do that and an hour. If you go ahead, oh, yeah. Well, the natives idea preservation have I know. I know it's such musical chairs, isn't Did you see? people here then Once there just the Senate. To makes Recently in but a Well, if the all time 3 before 1 o'clock. So I'm hoping means past they need right here in audience members. So think is to increases. And they're saying let him know that she is nothing between us days. The year. It yeah. I will love. We're going to get going
here in just a friendly reminder like we didn't recess. And you microphones are. Are on for conversations around. Can is and bathroom breaks and all of the things today I think the only preamble that off you know, sometimes it shows human side of us, right, which every appreciates the only people that is, you know, today we're setting the next level the goal is to meet with the top 5 departments which we were on track for. So thank you so much for the department's to kind of respond to a call of wanting to hear budget presentations again from the top 5 departments. This said it time Parks Rapinoe isn't here anymore is our favorite Welcome fire. I hope event.
That they don't know And so we are very excited. We a very council values and alignment in last year's budget around fire. And I suspect a very similar approach this year. It's really hard you know, Penn City services against each other. And this is one that's really important for the community safety for thinking about mental health. And I just want to welcome our chief Saint Paul Fire. But thanks to the podium. Thank you so much. And I will kick it off to you for the presentation. The only note that I will add is that your department is between us and break and lunch. So we will be very their questions. The hoping that we end a little bit earlier than that to our time. A lot in which I think
was very do our best to stand time together. So with that, I'll hand it over to counsel as PRESIDENT City Council. Thanks for having me here. Let me start by being a kid from the north, then you do have some championships. In the north they date back a little ways still want some championship. Thanks for thanks for having me here today. I want to welcome our staff here as well here for support. As you well know, this this budget cycle is is really not fun for anybody. So present what we. We have proposed for next year and then just feel to questions from there. And we'll talk a little bit of all and quick executive summary about run volumes and some changes. Proposed for 2026. Houston
services. We provide as well as a recap of the 2025 again. We'll touch again on the 2026 changes. And so a little bit of budget is spending Ft. Summary. And slight unfilled positions with children. This is fire is historically not. Don't have unfilled positions when when they become try to fill immediately. So run volume response times. We are. We are well within the national standards for that were with pride ourselves getting out the door quickly responding. Quick. Send large amount of resources to to the calls that come in. You know, as a tax. If you use morning 4 o'clock this morning, the fire and any award responded quickly put fire still some, you know, some tragedy there for that family. Just. pride ourselves and and
really being aggressive department gets old. Quick in response. Quick. Some changes that you'll see that are that are in this presentation. You know, I call the presentation is. I don't I don't think anybody is proposing to reduce. Responders. The fire department. So I'm I'm here presenting to you. We're looking at a reduction of 3 firefighters and I think that dates back to 2025. That that that reduction was. Scheduled to happen didn't. And so more than the 2026 reduction 3 firefighters. Reduction of a deputy chief of ems. That's really center on our cares division as well as a 9 deal us ease. 6 of which would be assigned to he overnight division over bls response and the other 3.
cares. Her goals for 2026, as always, is to maintain a level o service or residents or businesses and visitors. We. We work hard and recruiting and taining and retaining firefighters and emt's and paramedics. We are. We are department. When you when you talk about the The fire service in general, the challenges nationwide of of keeping a full compliment of responders in Saint Paul. We've been very successful at. Filling all of our ft east and in fact, sometimes selling above are authorized to use to give us a full cmplement responders as well as reduce overtime costs, which is it's it's not normal and throughout the nation. But here in Saint Paul, we we've been successful at that, you know, part of which I think a covered here a little bit is as our pathways program, we truly have a program that set
up. That a 15 year-old kid as a as direct path to this position. What we've seen is is that is that explore its 15 as moved on from there, too, are feeling sick at me from there. We've hired them tease. Working in our bill is to vision and have now become firefighters and all starting promote. So it's it's a very successful pathways program and its Hawaii. We are able to keep a full compliment responders that pls program has really successful at theater program for firefighters as you'll see. I think we're todaythat 45 bls employees emt's To Johnson. apologize in advance to think you get too far before the first But can you? So one of the things that came up in the police presentation was the non-fatal shooting and
they talked a little bit about some of the milestones and things that they've seen as part progression of numbers. Would you be able to do the same for the bls program test to some of the successes are highlights that's our council mayor. And I'm trouble here and I'm sorry. And it's me. So I mean, it could also be that I have to wait. And I guess a little bit to the mic. I was just asking if you could share a little bit more about the success, as you mentioned it to Sain, you know, a successful piece of the fire department and they're being notable things that you would note for the record about the bls program itself itself. Yeah, absolutely. Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember. So the the division was created. 2018, 2019. And it was really
centered around. Providing is very specific response to specific need before that we're sending. Our advanced life support units on a basic life support And the way our system is set up. Our advanced life support it to be out of service. Are fire engines would be out of service because they're tied together and they were responding to a basic life support so that. That was that was one reason we we implemented that the the other is we wanted to create opportunity week at the time we created 12 positions. And what it does create 12 new jobs for. People aspiring to get into this profession. And so. Those are kind of the reasons we start. We we didn't realize is that it would morph into. What we now just color are feeder program. Keeping ahead of the curve. When were searching for 5 assists. So
that's those are kind of the 3 main things. Why we did it. And but now over the years, fast forward to today were were realizing that there's such a high demand for basic life support response. We have just continued to grow grow that that division. You know, it's it's. We're trying to stay ahead of the demand, right? And we've historically I run volume increases. 47% over every year. And so to try to keep up with that. Is this is heart. And so this division has helped us that Keep Iran run ball year, run response times in acceptable range. But provide a very specific response for specific needs. So it's the it's has, but it's an way more than I thought it would for us. And it's very operationally, but also very valuable There's a pathway to get
into this profession. Not just to become a firefighter, but if you if you want to stay in the bls the vision and respond and once you can make it clear and make a decent wage, well there and the pension fund there in the union. And so it's a it's a it's a job opportunities for folks to want to get His answer questions. Yeah. Thank you. Some of the goals for 2026 is the is the main teenage infrastructure. As you well know, we opened up new station 7 were slated to open up a new station remodeled 63 at West 7th. Being told early OCTOBER. So for port holding out of that. So what that will do is at a 16 fire station to our system, which is historic in itself. We we often talk about that. You know why? Why? We
couldn't add more resources in the past. We didn't have physical garage space and I toured with most of on our stations were. Where jam packed with backing out of here. Pulling out and the alley here year. And so we've used up all of our space you know, as much as we could for resources. So by building new stations and remodeling stations adding a new station to the system, we have physical garage space. So that that's been a real priority of ours. The other that which is not on this slide is is a plug-in a priority of ours. Is is the Wrigley Placement. It's not normally part of the general budget, but I want to just call it out that the cost of rigs have. Increased from they've they've more than
doubled in the last 10 years. And so lot of attention being placed on that. There's a recent story that was published. Starting to question some of the vendors why their profits are. 4 times the amount of inflation. So it's now starting to get some attention put in perspective 2018 when stepped in as the chief, you could buy a fire engine for. Under $400,000. Now that same. Piece of equipments today is is over a million dollars. And I call and I call that out because it's it's it's special phone. So we don't normally present that. But it it it's. We are now in a space where we're asking, do we buy new or do we take the available funds? We have. Invest in trying to keep our old fix.
And that's what's happening nationwide. And so what you know, what we are seeing and we're very close to this. Not that long ago. Is having are our. Frontline Rick, go down. I reserved it. Go down because it's older and we would we were close to not having physical to put its service. Because because I think because of the for adus are therefore they've gone still. So how do we operate? Our mission is protect the people. Same Paula, public education, fire suppression, rescue, emergency medical partnering with community to mitigate risks and respond all calls for service was skill, dedication and compassion. This is our mission statement has been become chief. we took over we we looked at what our current mission was and it was all centered just
responding to calls and where we're. As I'm sure all of, you know, much bigger than that. Just going on a 2025 budget some savings are unplanned costs of Really it's this is centered Savings. We recently. Piloted what's what we call it? The shift. The delta shifts. You know, we've historically run on an abc shifts. And so what we decided to do create a the ship. And and we we center that around promotion spots. We plugged some some drivers, captains, District Chiefs, separate chipped away from the norm and what that's
allowed us to do. Couple of things that allows the employee to flexibility on their schedule. Job is 24 7. It's demanding on the job itself is demanding and then it's demanding on families and friends as well. The other thing it allows us to do is when there's a vacancy in the 3 shifts, b or c we are able to plug in the shift into that vacancy, which does 2 things. Allows us to keep our staffing for that day at the highest level. Reduces overtime costs by anywhere from 12 to $1800 a day. So pilot it and it's I think the the way of the future, if you want to. Try to keep your staffing up, I without spending. Much oer time. You still have overtime costs. We've always been a department to think of different ways be innovative. And this was an idea we had to try to reduce overtime costs while maintaining. Certain
level staffing. So to date since MARCH 8th, we're looking at about $235,000 in savings. And project it out over a year. If we were to expand. This this thought process of drivers kaftans and chiefs. We we see this potentially saving lives. You know. Over a million dollars overtime costs. Revenue forecasts that, you know, we're on target with their projections. When limited amendments, no preferential needs 1, 1, author, one personnel change. You know, 2 personnel changes could include that. The ship is we've implemented the ems supervisor all. In a 24 hour capacity. We go on close to We're going to you know, 60's 7,000 calls this year. Majority of those are in mess in nature. What we
found over the overtime is The ems calls are growing exponentially. And so we need to plug in. Some some increased supervision on the street for that. And that's what this you must provide. Service. They also carry specialized equipment. Special training when they show up. So they're they're a paramedic additional paramedic when the show up. And so they can provide assistance as well. Mission recent initiatives, the expansion of the bls division, as you can see from 2022. From 21 2020 fire at 34. Were budgeted at 2.3 million. And then as I mentioned above, 45, the employees of transition to the field and career firefighter. It's a division that is
there's always turnover. It's council member. your Thank you, council vice PRESIDENT And thank you Phoenix I was going to wait to next side, but I think this is somewhat related. I just wanted to ask a little bit about the production to the cares unit from here. For proposed changes. I just make sure that i'm understanding that what this essentially make. What about cares for 2026? Does it still remains of the program? Go away and then also could speak a little bit more to the overnight bls peas and how many be less staff would remain in the overnight shift and if any, and then yeah cares. If this means that the cares budget as a whole next
year won't be in existence. Council must PRESIDENT Counselor. Yes, this would wipe out a specific and then the cres and for the cares the cares team be reduced. And so unintentional cares. Response, dedicated unit for cares. Response would go away. The plan for us is to expand with cares has been trained in to the rest of the bls division. For crisis people, people in crisis, we would expand that training from just very intentional. The cares unit today to the rest of the field. This and as far as the bls goes. The the overnight shift would not exist. And so
what that is and always says, we average roughly 7 plus runs through that time frame there and service runs will still come in. And we will go back to the bls units responding. Taking a asset out of service. Creating an als, get. And in addition, create as as you know, our illustrator tied to a fire engine. We would create a gap there and fire response as well. Between those hours. The runs will still come in and were never not going quite but we're gonna go back to. Away from this. The setting that specifics. You know, they needed resource for that call. We're going to start our advanced life support units. And then when you talk about cares. In Arbil U.S. Rigs are
busy there. They're going on. Oftentimes are all out of service because their calls and so that will happen in 2026. And we will not have specific cares. Response and they'll assassin would go on college ball. Ask my home from that cut. And then just to verify that those are vacant. Positions currently or council. Vice PRESIDENT Councilmember the we probably reference the office. yes. Overnight be less staffing and then of the cares budget. I guess it's like that. How are they being is there a vacant positions within that budget as So the care cares is there is a vacancy. Is their current currently 6? Well, when called Bacon says because I just call them on offer them jobs this week. So there's final office extended. So those positions.
We we had conditional and condition on passing. You know, whenever we listed with the start date in there. And 5 of the 6 so far of combat and they passed everything soul. I personally call the extent of the final offer to them. And they will start Otober 13th. So we will. I'm waiting on the last name. That process has been in place that I think MAY or JUNE. It's such a long process on board people in profession. That's why. That to trying to staff above your authorized strength. What we learned is during a 14 week Fire Academy. You lose about this 4% workforce who you are forever operating short. Buy over hiring almost Hiring above are a threat strength. We're we're we're we're
able to keep up with attrition. So will. It will start OCTOBER 13th. And then the proposal 2026 attrition. Those positions would be reduced. And we had brief conversations around that they can see conversation with Tony Newborn in, you know, the timeline for I think most positions is is a lot longer than we would like and is very similar to the timeline that chief just described I think the I just want to name that I'm very dense. The removing the Kerry's unit for a number of reasons. But could you you know, you mentioned it, but I do want to lift it up. Can you just talk about sort of like? The trickle up effect, potentially a trickle down effect, right? Because that's the way that we know that the way that things are staffed as
others coverage across different areas that are being pulled from different stations. So in the event that an ambulance or an analysts unit responding to something that potentially be a less unit could respond to. That also means that that station potentially is out and then firefighters there are not fully staffed, are not able to then respond to a fire call that could potentially come So our coverage starts to kind of shift with like, and this isn't any to me. And want use that one. It just is very patchwork based on who we have available, which is great because the system that of our firefighters is responsive and nimble. However, the impacts to that service delivery of just the quality of service, I think has us really terrible kind of trickle up effect. Can you just say maybe like one or
2 more things about that? And the one of the reasons why I'm asking this question is because, you know, now more than ever as we look at major cuts to Medicaid and who's eligible for health services, who can even access mental health right now, we're going to see an increase of calls and then the ability to take time at those calls to respond appropriately kindly with compassion to the person that's probably experiencing MAY be the worst and their life, which actually think probably every call that you get but its to name won't be able to spend the necessary time or the time that we would like with that person or family that's experiencing crisis because they'll get polled. To another priority.
Call. And so that shifting of that staffing has sort of like a very disparate impact as the for their kind. You go up that chain because if a firefighter were to respond, they are trained in De La Salle, us and paramedic. And they're also a firefighter. So I just can you say 2 more things about sort of like, what are the staffing implications? Do I have it right in my articulating certain what that and result of that problem come to Well, council, very present. You are exactly a limited there. There is a a domino effect. Cares was specifically created and implemented. To address. Again, a very specific the So we respond 9-1-1. And we have a fast response or als units responded. Quick assessments. Off to the hospital very quickly. And so the less units respond. Less severity of a call little more time
assessing determining we're going hospital and then our cares. Team response. Heading into season it is intentional they can rule out a medical emergency. First. And so they spend. A lot more time on determining real audits. Not medical. It is. We're going to transport, get them the care they If it's not something, obviously medical heart you know, whatever that medical cause. It's a it's a mental crisis or they need resources. We're gonna spend a lot more time on scene trying to help figure that out. So they get the resources they need. And what we plan and we it's is to grow that programming further. That was the plan into what's called community Paramedicine. And that's what's not all over the country. You nw. Shift
from that that person on scene that spends, you know, 30, 40 minutes on scene to to really talk to this person. To get them the resources they need. And you take care of that person. And oftentimes what happens. Is is the follow-up piece. No, no, No. We have departments in the city on us follows up for we follow. We try to follow up. But the standard is community paramedicine to follow up and you become the caseworker now that person. So now you're. You're not only taking care that need, but you're also following up to making sure they still. Receive what they because if they don't. What they know is cut to call 9-1-1. That's that's what they do. And so tax system and it doesn't get them the help they need so that that. Not having cares, not having the bls. We're still going to call. And
we're still gonna respond. We're going to go back to what we were doing. 2018, vote. Just one additional thought the paramedicine idea something that was really interesting to me, especially given certain the solution of the coast unit, which was sort of like the a similar service. But in police and, you know, causes us. You know, obviously there's still responding the cause, but they're doing in a different way. And so where does that work fit? What makes the most sense and thinking about Paramedicine as we think about full-service schools and other things like that? How are we sending our city staff out to? Able to assess and address sort of like the growing needs that we have in community. But in a very intentional community, Daryn, Way, 2 additional cost will
keep you really here is Against connected to our health care system. Kids are. Parents are making decisions between paying rent or bring a kid to the dentist right now. And so that even just like a simple to they can escalate really quickly. And with a calling and understanding where to access resources. In addition to that first response, I think it's just incredibly important, but also name what an incredible strain on our system in the number of call volume that we're sending our firefighters out on. And then just a one nte we talked about this last year ask him the question. I know how spicy it was. But sworn strength, assertive. It's not an arbitrary number. Certainly like connected to 10 occasion and I think that in comparison to oher Metro cities and across the state in comparison to our population size, we
continue to be severely understaffed for our fire departments. A sworn statement certainly sort of. Let's call the bear minimum. But it is based on an equation. But it's certain not an arbitrary number. Certainly rooted in something. But I just one unnamed this form strength isn't the standard. It's I would call it base basically of their minimum minimum for water department would need to respond to the population size that we have. Is that a fair sort of articulation of what strength is and isn't. Council vice PRESIDENT, that's more than that for the ferry, its 20% it's we are fair manner. And you talk about. All the things we already talked about, right? We're still going on the call. It's going to create gaps. Can you But our staff is going Thousands and thousands, Iran.
By creating different resources, it's the workload going to be there and it's only going to go up and it's going to go in a lot of good things happening in the city. You know, where the population is growing, housing is cut. You know, it's it's really good stuff. But the more people you bring in there's going to be more demand. That's just the way it is. And so we're going to continue to ask more of the people we have. we're working on. You know, I I'd love to change their schedule right now and I'm not surprising anybody when I say that we're working on a four-day cycle 24 hour shifts. Nobody in the country doing anymore. It's it's too much for our responders. And so we're looking at different shifts, different ways to still provide the service. And not beat up our employees. But to
do that. You need you need more people to do it. And that's that's a fact. And so yeah, more than accurate. You're 100% 100% right? Ore left off but was school? Yeah, I just I think for this one just Iwould encourage you to highlight sort of the number of graduates fom the last. And then just the thing up, how many of those folks are now firefighters? Yeah, and it like I said, it's it's bigger than even just the last Pathway U.S.. With with the explorers, by the way, state champions last year state his 2 kids are moving up not only our own apartment, but some are leaving to go to medical school and it's just creating opportunities. So many different areas. 2026 proposed changes.
Fire station 7. We were. Looking at selling that. So that closed potential gap of $500,000. The cares unit, the budget numbers there. Ems Academy is another another program that we're looking reducing. It wouldn't go away. We still have some academies. And what that program does is to provide into training for a very specific group in our city and our county. Because we have the bls division. It has become another pathways and work in our department, we are actively looking at different ways to get that I am confident we can find different ways to get get that on so. And then the bls night shift. Explained what that would look like. If rduced. And then firefighters -
production that proposed in 2025. Happening in 2026. That. 2 questions will go churches first mentor, Johnson. Question about the 3 firefighters being removed a couple things from so from last that they were for firefighters in the budget being added that you propose. And I think we added 3 more it was also my understanding the for firefighters. There were added in the budget originally were maybe also from the previous year. I don't I guess, know, anyone remembers that none of us were here, but I thought I remember to the council PRESIDENT Mentioning that and and so now, though, 3 fire fighters are being. Removed, I guess couple my questions are so there are 7 firefighters being added in the 2025 budget where those film. And then with these 3 firefighters being removed from the budget for 2026, I guess I'm just a little bit concerned because thought w
had some previously know moving some. And then what is the impact of that? Removal of those fte services? I think for me, you know, I really appreciate the heat maps and all the information you provide in the appendix one. I'm thinking about my word. We have all of the concentrations of the heat map are areas where we have seniors and especially with Highland Bridge getting built out. We're going to be adding, you know, hopefully 100 or so units opposing here in the next few years and hope several 1000 more units 1000 in the next decade. And so I'm just a little bit. It will concerned right now in concern moving forward and wanting to understand the Impact. Council vice President councilmember to. To specifically just the questions were the firefighters, Phil.
That they were an any every fte we're given. We we have failed and then we try to Feel above are authorized strength. So yes, they were filled. The impact is we're impact is our daily staffing numbers. change. They won't go down, but they will go up either. We'll have 3 less people to drawn to fill vacancies. So you'll see some more over time to And so what we you talk about fire facing added over time. The goal has has been is to is a chip away at adding firefighters. And I you know, the council or area everyone's on board with that it's expensive to add what you need at one time. So chipping away at that. And so we were able to add a new engine last year 7, 1, 1, service. That was that was a milestone. Exciting for our department resources
that had been added 50 years. Part of how we added that to the investment from the mayor and the council. And but we also had take some of our Super medic Ricks to help U.S. Staff that as well. We made it work, but that we made it work with that with the idea of we would now continue to chip away at getting the supers back and play. And so what this does it sets us back from. Process. And you're you're spot on island area, the unrest to see the population. It's growing. It's good. But more people you bring in, the more demand is going to be, it's just it's just the way business works. Yes, to dance. Thank So I really appreciate just kind of getting. But I feel like I Glenn I think some of those decisions that I'm sure over really difficult ones to to
land on. I guess I share that same concern for the Heights on the east side as well. If you look at the map between 5, 6, 7, a fire station numbers and then also, I think just, you know, reviewing response time in places. I just I kind of home back to that piece of cake. You share aain one, remind me of authorized range. What is our at the restraint and how mny? Current firefighters? So we have and I know firefighters applies to a little bit of everybody. So and this context of the budget. But can you what is street than where we operating? The council, vice PRESIDENT Council members are we have a slide. We injected that's light enough for to break down slide 11. And our total. Authorized sworn is 4.57. Include the emt's other physicians. We're at 5.24. Warren. Which does not
include. T and r b list. A vision. currently at 4.57. And so just if I could, is. So how we got here is is this is my 7th budget proposal. I have been up here. Talking about reducing postage stamps. Cleaning services. Gardens. We have gone live my i don't have any more lines. So when you're still faced with reduction. This is this is where you because you just don't have. Any other place to look and saw. I don't like this at all. Speak for the mayor of a company doesn't like it either. And I obviously can tell you like to so. We don't want to see this happen. This is this is wy we're here now. I I don't have any more poor substance to
come. I tink as a just a follow-up, the that the contacts also sort of what department directors are offering us is you know, our understanding is that there is a general target and each department asserted asked to figure out like where where can make cuts in person. You know, we don't love the reduction of rec center hours, right? But that's a way to keep staff and what we're what we're hearing from the chief is that there are no hours to come from. There's no paper towel that you're hiding somewhere or secret money. It's it's now we are looking at staff. And so I think by my follow-up question to that is for sort of a city of our side size was sort of like the national average for sort of the number of staffing that you would have for a city of our size in comparison to what we have now.
and vice PRESIDENT. I would have to write there's a formula and rferenced But I will publicly say you, you would well over 600 firefighters, 2 for save our size. And that the question. I'll tell you what it would do for us. We could change. We could change ships. You know, with with that I'm off or face nation is going to 24 on. 48 offer. 24 on 72 off. And I travel. I've been tension travels and talk to departments from country. And they still can't believe we're operating on type of scheduled for today. 20 for should schedule. So that would that would. I sent articles all the time. Look at this department changing in this department chain. But if you really into that details where they're at. 100 firefighters to make that change. So but a city of our size and I'll give you the exact question. There's a federal. Website with the city of our size in case in the
U.S.. But it would be over in Yeah, I really appreciate that of all. Question from Chair Johnson. Thank you. Just took the question. So then how much overtime as budget annually for the fire department. So for 2026 with anticipation of potentially needing additional over time because of the firefighter cuts be less cuts and the some of the reductions are budgeting and increase overtime expenses next year? What do currently budget for this Where where's the fire department landing? So council, vice PRESIDENT Councilmember to the easy answer to the first one is is no. We are not budging more money for overtime. This budget. Does not call for an increase. Think we're have to get the exact number, but I'm but a million. We're about budget about a million dollars a year in overtime.
It's it's not enough. Hence why we think about the the shift or we put we put measures in place to really limit. Where we can tomorrow. Over time we spend while keeping. Very minimum number. To respond all calls. It's a challenging. Hence why we think of. You know what, if what, if we did that, the Can we save money? Could we offer options for employees? Some flexibility. You know where I say it all the time. Families also You know, when you're gone for 24 hours, life does not stop and wait for the responder to come my wife says she tell you that. So it's so we we try to think of ways that can help all of those areas and then save money over time as well. And I as a follow-up and something that I would just note at. So one of the things that I've heard that this budget cycle has been we have been really trying to hone in on the cost of doing business
in the city. I'm not sure if that's accomplished here when. We are essentially cutting firefighters that we MAY need our services that we MAY need. In exchange for potentially have a the foot about being like we're going to need to respond to the calls are going need to have to send, you know, units out. It most likely will end up costing us more because we will be a probably seen an uptick in some of the overtime usage. And this is actually the piece that I think is the greatest opportunity for city, but from the fire department and the police department. When we talk about the cost doing business, I anticipate that being like. Not necessarily and that to say that you but not necessarily rely overtime to compensate for what we should have and swore at officers and or
firefighters and or the last staff and or as we're in scene in these initiatives, I think about the 1 million dollars allocated this year for the crisis. I'm not sure someone who's not a firefighter. Sure who response to what if there's you know, that's an als rpls or fighter jet. I'm not sure who is the first 2 in those cases. But, you know, from some of that, some of the information and just from those conversations that I have had, I have had with my firefighters and some of the East side stations, you know, hearing from them about how in some cases they are kind of for students and has to be the police Officer Cup That's responding. I I think that when we think about the cost of doing business, this doesn't. That step backwards to me what it feels like a little bit of a step backwards just because I think we've made some progress that. There's been lot of communication around just how
long it's been since we've, you know, put forward station up, put back station 7 and then also put the firefighters staffing capacity. That would most likely at least compensate for having that daily Staffing matrix stay the same. This isn't like where Kathleen, the cost business, because in part because a business would include those office, those firefighters so I don't know. I guess I'm I was a transparently. I'm a little disappointed to see that. And in part because I think not sure if that's doesn't sound like you all have had a decrease in call. Volume doesn't sound like there's been a decrease in interest in the fire station. I think one of things we've heard from some of our challenges within our police department is the vacancies
and is trying to get police department sworn officers to apply so that we can retain them. And this case, it doesn't make you operate with very many vacancies what we have and actions. Thank you operator over at the race chain. And the interest is there and there's all these wonderful things that I would stare kind of create a little bit of different. You look at. But there are a little bit of a different issue as far as retention and keeping. So, no, I don't respect I don't no one likes it. But also, I don't know. If I necessarily agree with that direction either. council vice PRESIDENT I don't know. I'm And so. talk about call on since. Nothing but go up in my 31 years. It's not going to go
down. And council vice president. Your point with The difference. Variables are coming in off. The demand will will increase. And so you you bring up over brought up our schedule. 3 times already. And just their normal work schedule is taxes. And by the way, can you do more if don't want to go down that route? And so but we're about to ask in the more you know, we're going to lose some resources fill the gaps. And we do respond to the opioid costs if you call, we're going to Whatever the call. So. I think that's sort of one of the major differences at times from sort of our first responder causes like they're
not going to be like, are you sure your house is on fire? You sure this person needs stitches or is having cardiac arrest. They will respond to the call. Make that assessment. And so it's just to say that the prior cia's ation of those calls will happen, but they still will be responded to. And I think, you know, I just I really like the super medic felt like a really big win. And now utilizing staff to to have coverage the station. 7 is a big win where we certainly have more space. But we're still just kind of this like perpetually understaffed. So I think when I when I it's interesting to have these 2 presentations back back because like, yes, kids will rock and a librarian, the library hours. And yes, kids walk into her family's walking rec centers
are rec center hours. But first responders respond to that person no matter where they are in the city, no matter what. Time of day and so thinking about, like what 24 hour service is that just really rely on staff and the fatigue that comes from that we talk about that across the board of workforce. But we think about the folks that are showing up better extension of committee. First public safety for us and if we're thinking about wellness of community, when wellness of the folks that are responding is just incredibly important. So I I couldn't agree more. I think this is definitely heading in the right direction and is taking away some of the winds. And even though the winds are notable, they're still sort of like at a bare minimum like having a super medic in us in
the capital city. Seems like a no-brainer to me. So I pass chair just and chair after it's thank you. Thank you, MR. PRESIDENT Kim and thank you, chief. I know that these are really, really difficult decisions. I just want to I really appreciate Chair Johnson's comment. Very similar what I was basically in the same. We have a million dollars in overtime. We're cutting 3 firefighters. There are $360,000. And it sounds like, you know, you're concerned about what that will mean for the services that the fire department will be able to provide. And if we anticipate that we will have close to or more than $360,000 in additional overtime by the end of 2026. Than this. There's just no way that honestly makes sense. So the only thing that I'm thinking about is I know I
mean. Been we've had several presentations now and I know that that a lot has been cut from to make it to this budget. There been a lot of cuts and that's this is a cut. He started cut cutting more things. And I just I know that our residents are really challenge right now with the cost of living in the increase in taxes and not just from our city, but from, you know, the county and the public schools. But these are I'm rally concerned about about the cuts that we're And I think that the impact on our residence is significant. And so I think we just really need to think about that when we're looking at all these all these cuts, I think it's starting to feel like it's a little bit much to me. And I just wanted to to
express that to everybody. council vice PRESIDENT Mallet to say thank you for saying that. To thank you, Vice PRESIDENT And also thank you so much. For honesty. I you know, this is a really challenging conversation that we all band joining. And I just want to say, I don't have a question that just want to share my closing thoughts, particularly you know, for more wine and being able to actually do aride-along and visit the stations and build relationships with many of the firefighters at live for Uptown and Rondo neighborhood. Kathy Jo Hill area. I truly see this department more than just the department that's rendering aid, but also a job opportunity. And I think, you know, if we could assess, I
would say maybe by far most of the same pot residents that come from same pot work in Saint Paul. We have the most majority of that in this department. So I definitely see there's a lot of impact now only around just like us being caught out. Our firefighters be caught out the fussy baby bill, but also just like the this department has working for the city of Saint Paw and also inspiring other people. So become firefighters. I also want to share, too, I think out of all the departments and all the level of visibility by far is huge. We see our firefighters at our events and festivals.
We see our firefighters at a volunteering doing back-to-school bckpack, giveaways. We see them at job theres. So I everything that was said, I agree with terms of where do we need where where do we need to actually prioritize and how do we ensure the cost of doing business doesn't undermine our copper eyes. Us and the long Just want to share that You know, a couple of days ago we had town at around the library. And I was, you know, even wasn't even thinking of having the firefighters on the agenda. And it was the focus was on our safety specialists, but it meant a lot to see that our firefighters, our cares team actually has a presence at that Rondo Library that we're not just depending on
just safety specialist our our police officers, but our cares team also is part of that enterprise not only in our libraries with our rec centers and also across our commercial corridor sites, mind to to highlight that council vice PRESIDENT Customer, thank you for saying that. Means a lot like our. Members of our department. Really. Don't become part of the community. And and care. Quite frankly, put it. With other pieces and they're they're not here today. But local 21, the union. Former. And and their their people. They really stepped up and a lot of different areas get back to the community and that means a lot to them to be able
to do that. So we talked about the fire department and they're definitely part of the fire department. But I want to specifically call out that they they do. They go above and beyond as wll to to give back to the community because they care. The other piece you know, when we talk about the impact, you did a visit that station 18. And that specific day. I and ambulance. The last call came in and then an analyst call came in. And so. If the bls wasn't there. Ellis, what I want first reading that. I mean, that's prime example. But what could happen so if you if you remember that, but that's that's what happened that day.
To Johnson. Thank you. Actually think that was an example of that, too. Like when I was at. As a train and we're like also my visit council are really very you're kind of right along piece. I'm like I want to we went out to when I would have been worth 7. Station. 24 have it has to thanks the Reagan make a there's a there's an engine matter for as well. And I think was like a call that they were out, Well, for that I will say this. Let's just say from what proposed and just really taking into account was in front of us. So I want share, you know, thank you for being able to put together budget and my comments, Stephen, they were not like the not directed toward to it. It's more so and
the broader scheme like where what I would really love to see over the next couple years is that our police department and our fire department are truly able to share their real cost of doing business. So we don't have to see that reliant on overtime. I do not that that's sustainable over time. I think the actually truly process more in the long run. If you if we do a mathematical equation to me, that's still just does not make sense. And so I really, truly like wanting to hone in on what that cost of business so we can be transparent to our community because what I hear at budget meetings in or, you know, we had a city council budget session. The first we did the breakout sessions, the first thing that committee members mentioned to me public
safety that was the first that came up in many different ways as like the thing that meant the most to them. And we had a small toward 7 residents. We had a word six-person that joined us. We had you know, in the community, members are continuing to think about that. And so like I want to be transparent with them about how how much it really costs, you know, too, uphold the level of integrity and the level of work, level of responsiveness that before fire department and our picks were continue to achieve. And so at the end of the day that, you know, that's like where my interest lies, I would say, let's say like that, these are the reductions said that this budget is adopted tomorrow. I still think it'll be important and imperative to future conversations in 2026. And for budgeting 2027 and features cycles to really start to hone
in on the cost of cost of business for us and to be transparent with us about like, you know, here, the impacts that were seen if we're seeing an increasing response times in certain areas in the city, I'd like I'd like to know that sooner than later. If we're seeing uptick in, you know, calls overnight that we didn't account for, if we're seeing you don't need to have to continuously rely on resources. And from our 1 million budgeted and over time that we MAY be dissipated but now are being confirmed that real-life checkpoint, I think really, really important because allows for the pasta makers and the, you know, in this case, the council, the mayor will have say shuns about what is the real cost of doing business and our city. And I also think it gives us opportunity on the front and to share with our constituents
about. Really this is what it's going to take to get there. And I think that's so often, right. They see the tax bill or the property tax number. And there's frustration because, yes, that's the kind property tax and peace is not really understanding what goals and to that. And especially when a police a fire department says that is something that I would argue a lot of people anytime someone calls 9-1-1, for any reason. They want. They want someone to show up. And I think that that's a consensus that something that we agree upon all across the city. That's been our constituents share over and over and over again. I want to know the real, the real alike cost of what that means. Pick up the phone. And when you you know, we've had many life or death situations throughout our city. We've had tragedies from
the east side in particular because and we've also had lives saved because of the seconds that took. And so that to me is like a really important. The reasons why, you know, supportive of police department, the fire department in this regard. But it's something that I think we are missing a little bit in our city when it comes to back that real dollar amount. And so I just hope that let's just say, like these reductions are adopted, let's say, like I'm just moving into DECEMBER with a so bear with me his propose as is it concerns me to hear some of the potential alternatives than the outcomes because I know that that is in the step in the direction. I would like to see us go in the city. So I really hope we're tracking that. And I hope that that can be reported on in some way, shape or form next
year as to what's actually happening. And so I don't know. I don't really care how that's done with it here in the setting earth. That's no one asked the council members, but I think it will be really helpful to know just what happens. You council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember it. So there's this. There's a monetary, you know, value, right? What it costs. But there's the other piece the cost comes Kim, your calls for a place said it. 4 times today we talk. Always mention about changes the wear and tear on our employees. And we're seeing increased cancer, increased heart. If there's there's all sorts of illness. Coming forward. People are still going so that the more you ask the more than an exposed to these these
dangers, these talks and we're seeing and interest of piece of it. So. There's a there's a dollar I can't put a The health of our firefighters. Yes, think your point, it's no one wants to hear that. The person that's in a string cpr their loved one is on their 9th call of that like a similar intensity of that night, right? Lake. That's that's probably what is happening right now. But I don't think that that it gives confidence that you've been providing excellent and a superior level of service running. So on cruise. And so my question is really connected to that one. And it's sort of for Tara, I think at this point. But just even looking at prior your numbers and this is followed by like
From budget officer in the department kind of like what are the staffing levels over the last 10 years? Because if I look, even the last few years are back to 2023 numbers. So I think to Johnson's point where it feels like we're going in the wrong direction in terms of staffing like we we take 2 steps forward and we took, you know, kind of uneven figure, setback. And so my question is sort of related to all those points like how does our department, the fire department sustain this level, a budget reduction and continue to deliver the same level of service. And I think that that question has major major implications, both on staff and service delivery. So little that rhetorical feel free to not answer. If have an off the cuff answer that you'd like to provide, you know, But I just I can't imagine that
running our fire dpartment Ray, his the solution. So I couldn't agree more. I mean, if you would like to like, how do we continue to deliver te same level of service while sustaining just continued budget reductions in this department. Council vice PRESIDENT. How do we how do we deliver the same level of we'll deliver the same level, but they'll be gaps and they'll be delay response times. We deliver the same level of service because of the 500 members. We have. That's how and where and they're going to the tones are going to go au. And they're still there under the rug. There's still going to quick. They're still respond. Quick. And they'll puts. As we do in this profession right? Put others before us. That's our job. That's what we not hear from me him. I'm here for we and we are all here for us, right? For the for the city.
That's what we do. Daily. And that's what they'll do. I'm confident that as as your fire Chief Austin wll deliver the level of service because of the of this department will sacrifice their own health to do it. And it will. It will filter to the top of more injuries. And more on We're going to still go on the cause the matter. What happens. We we don't have the word no in our vocabulary and we I don't even know the word quit means so and that that goes for the entire fire department. We're still going to go respond. And provide, I think disappear. Response times as well. Like unfortunately, the arcade Fire's 5. There is a 3 minute time differential between the time that the fire
alarm off at the station and the first firefighter was in that building pulling pulling kiddos And so what MISS, even I feel like you are such an excellent Looking at the east side with. Our budget chair There's one. You know, if I look at the east side. I with hope and assure that the response times are good. But when I look at the site and there's only one fire station, your word. And I think about like how far down that goes, you know, we. There is services already that. I think have to also very realistic with like right now, there's already just a certain level of service impacts that we're experiencing. And yet still provide are managed to provide just disappear level of. Of care to our constituents. But any other thoughts on this will I think there's only a few more size than we can stand for
additional questions. It All 3 cities is are these is historical that underpin our general revenues include. Ems doesn't from different contracts. We have with. With different entities and different services, we provide. And historically we we are in line with that. And so. Budget spending. Again, our general fund grant dollars. Very I'll just say we're good. Obtaining grants. apply for anything that's out there. And we. We're fortunate to be awarded that. And and so. To let them general government special projects that that line reflects. One of our positions are being fnded opioid dollars. Services and fixed rates working on a reason shop. Ft summary. I think just go right
to slide 11 and gives it. Better breakdown. Member Johnson missed work for for day. It's it can be confusing. But the bottom line is what I look at is the total scorn. We're moving 4.57. 2 for 53. That's losing one deputy chief ems. That's really dedicated to cares. And then 3 firefighters. And then the guy, the Mt Physicians total 13 positions that would reduced. are up? I told myself this the only slight I wanted to I promise you. I have a question or I think contacts around the reduction, a deputy chief and know you already. Had talked the challenge with the love and
firefighters. And if you could give some context of not only the impacts of like reducing a deputy chief, is this person going to be transfer to a different type of position. Ours cut layoff our retirement. Just trying understand the impact Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember. It is not layoff. It would be through attrition. The position and what that person does. It leads cares. And so by losing the deputy chief. Position, Division would down one supervisor. And again, talked about. And we we talk about response and the time response response times of wear and tear. But and the business side of things and the ms to vision like we have. It's it's very extensive, very big. And it needs be the appropriate supervision to make sure it's running accurately and efficiently.
So. The work is still going to be there and it can be shifted on top of the someone else so that's that's the impact of that. But one quick follow-up, Know we've been talking about the cares team and I just appreciate this beakdown in staffing. This is probably like my favorites lie. I'm just wondering where is the cares? Teams that showing up in the firefighters, the EMTs like what Category? Council vice pesent councilmember simple answer is yes. So the deputy chief would be in this warm area store. And then the emt's that are assigned to the cares would be in area. So there's 3 emt's and cares. That's why you see the reduction of 9. The other 6 are the overnight shift for Response. Skip and Phil position that skipped? We
don't have positions come For more. revenue trends Look, again, the the shift very optimistic that it's going to help. And then the new year for immediate future. But it's it's not definitely not to the solution, all the problems we have, but it's it's just another way we're trying to think of to reduce over time. And a staffing minimum. Phillip Hughes, we we mentioned transport. What we charge for Transport's is It's full. We're te lowest in the So lowest by far. So we it's a it's area that I think needs to be looked at I'm not trying Charger public more. There
is a cost of doing Business Council member. Tyson, you mention the cost of doing business This is one of them and we are we are below everybody in the metro area and that. Yeah, like to add to that. So that was actually my question is so certain whether he departments that actually generates like substantial revenue for the city that goes back into the general fund, a lot of these, the revenue that we are. Getting is from our transportation be so like the ambulance and those are usually reimbursed I like it turns companies or I don't know. Maybe the state depending on but my question was what is the difference like from other cities? How do we compare in terms of that transportation rate or from
from other states? What is that? If we are significantly less can use say 2 more things like what are the costs that other cities charge versus Saint Paul? Council vice PRESIDENT. So put it in perspective and advanced life support transport the city of Paul. We bill roughly $1700. But that transports other agencies in the in the metro area. But that same call Bill $2300. And when it comes to a basic life support transport, we going vote. Just under $1500 for that. And the metro areas building over $19. So. The bls rate in the metro area is higher. The nrl x-ray and Saint Paul there. This capacity there that he's had conversations around. Is the cost of doing And
who sets, though, France. So Council vice PRESIDENT You do thank you this group We propose we work with off as we work with the mayor. This is something we want pursue and we have we have raised them in the past. Through one of the presentations. And so it's. It's a. through this process. That figure And to put it in perspective, if you go line by line, we we generally don't have the money for supplies. You know, there's there's There's a true cost. It's hard to talk about we do in a business sense sense. Because we're here for the public. But it does cost money to run the services and 2 or 3. A line items are losing. There's not
enough money to buy right supplies to go on the call. You're going to have to rob money from somewhere spate. So on. Just a cost doing business. But so question from chair, thank you, Chris, for the camp just for that. A quick follow-up that question with those. So those are per transport. How many transports per Council vice PRESIDENT Councilmember I knew was going ask that I think we 34. 31 House transports. Combined. That's combined deal us now. And we can break that we can. I think we break that even further. But if you take an average minutes. If you want $300 temps, 31,000, I'm sure someone in at number real
quick, but it's substantial and so can it's it's there's a definite cost doing Thank you, chair thank you, Suspend. and is all really hard to hear and to think through how we will move forward. Just follow-up question to councilmember toasts. The Pickens was last year that those prices were raised by the council. Counselors from Councilmember. 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 2 years ago. I guess so. Question. But just a comment. I just kind of did do a little bit of quick math. And if you wouldn't raise rates one percent, that would be like half a million dollars. great to have an egineer on thank you for that quick
fact. Any other thoughts or questions for the Chiefs? I feel like there are a lot of highlights here. I'm just going to attempt to summarize a couple things that you're cost of doing business and whether an overtime is the appropriate response in terms of like staffing. Having correct staffing over just utilizing over tme. I think the question of service impacts and the continued reduction of this budget and how does it impact our residents and services? We provide? And I heard I share concern and I'm very interested in this addressing the U.S. For this year's budget. I the Kerry, it? I mean, I I'm looking across all of our health care systems and the access to mental health right now. And it's one that personally care a lot about to be very interested in
discussing. Maintaining those numbers in our care unit fr those reasons. But also recognizing sir, that really, really difficult trickle up effect that has on the strain on every single staff person that has to it. Respond respond more. There was an intentional reason why created the bls unit. And then yeah, just adding on to that true cost of doing business. And what we heard from the chief is that there is no more cutting to do in this department. We are now looking at staff and the last night as foreign strength is sort of what we make it and we are significantly understaffed for a city of our size. And so looking at the true cost doing business is incremental increases over time, which is based on previous year's looks like where we're headed. And then this year we're seeing a significant reduction. So I
really appreciate the candor of my colleagues in the interest in this department. Thank you so much for your time today to thank you for that, folks that have joined us in the chamber. Stay we we do have quite a few follow-ups will make sure we get those off to you, but just really great for the time and the information. Yeah, I mean, any last toughts and words for council vice PRESIDENT For us, the City Council thank you for. Hearing a come and speak and and the questions you It's not easy. But hopefully we provided. We don't have any other way to to leave it to be open, honest and transparent. Presented. What what it could look like. He's still. You have a lot of tough decisions made in the future I don't think you get the thank you's you deserve because it's not an easy job,
but you're about every year. It's tough. And then this year, it seems like it's even more. So thank you. For the time and effort it in the think always, if I get an opportunity. I just think the of our fire time super lucky honored, proud to be the fire chief and the city. I grew up in couldn't ask for anything more than the lead this group. Thank you. Thank you so much. Without the fans and Budget Committee will be in recess Good afternoon. We are reconvening the Finance and Budget Committee of the City Council for sake of our city clerk. We're gonna do a very brief roll. Call. Councilmember Billy. Are just a few some are common here. Council member here. I'm also presents councilmember him.
Present roll call is completed. We're back from recess. We've got one additional presentation. We so appreciate getting just sort of like the timeliness of this information, the responsiveness from this department. I'm going stop for just a little bit of a preamble since this is sort of a continuation of the conversation from last year similar to what we just heard from our fire department. We have, you know, there's sort of a universal staffing shortages in law enforcement. It honestly started a long, long time So this is not a new problem necessarily. But like many cities across the country, we've relied in overtime as a stopgap to cover. A lot of our staffing needs, which is what we just heard from our fire department. We're really proud that our police department's
commitment to community respects. They see safety in their success in reducing gun violence. And at the same time, the city is sort of limited Rodney tools, be on property, taxes stayed. And of course, none of these costs for the department is kept pace with kind of the rising cost of inflation, the cost doing As a council, definitely fiduciary responsibility to ask tough questions but necessary questions about how we allocate resources. So with that. I invite our assistant chief afford to come and present the overtime presentation. I think one must at all looks a chair. Johnson, you have any additional surly preamble questions that. You might want to offer and all and it's okay if you don't.
Not necessarily but more. So just that. We appreciate you all and your response for contacts. If we did send. The council did send a memo to the same police department JUNE requesting some of the day that you see in front of you and also regional date on that memo was in because of all the things that were happening in the we were able to allow for additional flexibility for departments to be able to get back to us because of the cyber incident and our city. And so this is still timely in regards to the communication that we have all received. And it's okay. It's a follow-up the contingency item that we have on 2025 budget. Thank Turning over to it you for Thank you very much. Council members council PRESIDENT. Do think. I'm glad we're doing and I I'm sorry that we didn't get to do it back in JULY when we had
intended to do it. But I think now with all the budget conversations going I when the chief, budget is talked about the importance of understanding the actual cost of doing business, just kind not doing benefits this year after year. I think this is really timely will be really helpful to you all. So first, want to talk about the types overtime that the department has. So the first to tell you what is contract will over time. So that's that's when you go to target for your the banking. You see a police officer working there and the chief has talked about this extensively used to called off-duty employment where, you know, I'm a work in community and a business might say, hey, I'd like to hear some police officers off duty security and then I is that point of contact would would manage that and schedule that kind of run that operation. So chief Axel previous chief Todd
Axtell. He ended that practice and brought that with into that in the department to better manage costs and resources and making sure was portable. So the one thing that I always like to talk about when I talk contract over time, this is work that is very vluable life into the community. It's a force multiplier. It puts officers out in the community. If I'm working a contract overtime job, it's a like target and have a shoplifter. I'm going to deal with that. There. And we're not gonna have to call an officer off the street immediately to do that. They might come later to transport. So it gives us more visibility. It helps us to alleviate some of the the work stresses on on the regular shifts. And the one thing about contract overturn also is really important is that don't have to do this. We
choose to do this so we don't do it for a body. We don't work in bars. You know, we never have since I've been here in in the contract overtime agreements. If there's a city emergency, we we get to pull those people off the contract over 10 jobs. And these are completely reimbursed. They're not part of the General Fund budget. Special event over We're also reimburse for this. So these are permitted events in our stadium events. Chs field, Xcel Energy Alliance Field or community events. The Yacht Club Music Festival Grandal days. Things like that. One thing about special event over time. Those events are planned and organized by our Special Operations unit. This is one of the questions and then councilmember. But we had to
me so they use national standards for how we staff The general rule is one officer per 500 attendees. 2 for 2.50. If there is alcohol served. So there's some things that can mitigate those costs for an event. If you do some hard and security type things, you know, so if you look at like the Yacht Club Festival or like grand old and things like that, there ae some of physical security features in place that help to mitigate number officers you would need for that. But when you get into some of the smaller community events, it's just really hard and that cost effective to do that. And also so the addition of private security. So the club is just a good example because it's so big and they have some private security that also helps to
mitigate costs for adding private security and some physical features can help to mitigate costs for community groups. And there's department over time. This comes out of the general fund. This is shift. Hold over again, a late call. And I got to stay because I can't release the scene. Homicide staff shortage, court court stand by. Some training. Those are the majority. Those are what those expenses are. Slight action. I'll just reiterate, you about 15 years ago, we've changed the model of how we do swat. When we did a slight injury, high-risk entry to arrest a suspect. They used to do the dynamic entry, you know, break down the door quickly go through the structure and secure it. We've we don't do it like that anymore. Excuse Slow it down. Secure a perimeter and caught
the suspect this has resulted in and no fatalities or injuries. Significant injuries since we started that practice or really proud of the way we do that. I said throw that politics. And then finally we have our non budgeted expenses which also come out of the general fund. These are your rallies and protests, things that go on at the state Capitol or at the governor's mansion. We have to call a mobile field force when we when we have to do dignitary protection for federal, you the PRESIDENT Comes to town or something like that. And these are the ones that we that are really difficult to plan for their last minute. But fortunately, it's not a federal election year. So they've gone down this year. I've got a just a really quick. As a reimburse the reimbursable her 10 hours. Is there ever a time where we
don't still all the necessary? They're not all the necessary that all the requests for contractual overtime ever say no to those. His vice PRESIDENT, there's times when when we have. Left to contract overtime vacant because we didn't have the staffing to do it. And I think the root of that question is just asking, like, how are you prioritizing that overtimes? That over time. Requests and that staffing and recognizing that you are also under your sport strength right now. How are you? Prioritizing? Just like regular hours for the city. So I appreciate that. Question. Yeah, thank you. Council as PRESIDENT Houston to Florida question the difference between contractual overtime and special event over time. So thinking, for example, about offense at the Saint Thomas with that contractual over time or is that special event over time and survived
are stunning but constitute a stadium event to be helpful. So the special event overtime events that we were going to do regardless all permitted eents. We're closing a street. We're using a park where public public facilities public resources. So I if trying to good way to explain it. Where that wouldn't be the case. But if if I had colonel in my backyard and I and I had a lot, I said a lot of people there and we honor people or something. And I was in closing the street and I was in Cali in traffic hazard. And there's nothing that require me to get a permit. Would be like an event. It's not that spray. Not a good comparison, but it's the best way in cold weather at the moment. But
whenever there's a perimeter are using city resort, closed street or use apart things like that. Those are special over time. She really thank you. Vice PRESIDENT, thank you so much. I have a follow-up question around the specially pans over time and particularly around like the permit of events. So I can you talk a little bit about like how those shifts are You know, that. I appreciate the context of some events MAY have vacancies to wear and we you know, we have officers there, but we're not able to fill all those ships. But can you talk about how officers are assigned? Alright, this is like a voluntary.
process to wear. You event is posted and our officers competing for that is a seniority. What it's like the procedure around assigning officers specific officers to specific even some vessels. Thank you, customer. Vice PRESIDENT Kim of. So we have an app called Roll Call that we years ago and officers will events, whether it's contract over time or special event over time posted on the roll call have every month o so. And then officers can sign up for as many as they want. We recently started assigning them by seniority. So it's it's kind complicated for me to explain bcause I don't sign So I don't use it personally. But I'm number one in c area, the Saint Paul
Police Department and I put in for, you know, so if we run it for 7 events, I'm going to probably get every one of those. I'm going to get all those events and probably number 2 in or number 3, number 4, and that's regardless of Our most senior person in the department I believe right now is sergeant. So they're going to get, you know, whatever they want for whatever they signed up for and then we will run that cycle of of the events are filled. Then just got from there to a vote of both the pay rates. We do a flat rate. For contractual overtime. A special event over time. You know, if you have a really, really large event with a lot of officers and it happens to be a lot of newer officers going to collect the same amount of funds that but then we have innovative work
manager surgeons. It the kind of offset. It evens all. Essentially to answer questions, seniority and use of roll call Johnson. I guess the follow-up to that did just make sure that I heard you You sure you said that the rotation starts with like the highest-ranked officer who signs up for. Seniority not really about seeing your yes, I think highest the most here officer sworn personnel as currently a surge. I think there are 1993. So senior established by years of service versus rink. Is that when hear case? follow-up question. Thank Because I know I've been talking the chief about this, particularly around events and festivals and just learning the process and that the cost
of You know, letting our services to these events ad festivals. My question, particularly is So there is that event organizer received, don't actually get the building until after so. And you mentioned that there is the same flat rate no matter if you get a sergeant, if you get sick sergeants are you get 6 Nguyen coming. Officers, can you speak is there like a cap around how many officers could be a sign? Because from my experience hearing from, you event, organizers. They are the ones that determine how many officers are assigned, even if they were to have their own alternative over private security are like volunteer security. He talk about that flexibility,
particularly around like insured and there's coverage, but not to the point where now they MAY have to pay more not really know exactly what justifies Sure. Yeah. So again, it kind of goes back to Earlier consular we counsel was present. Kim. If they some ways you can mitigate the need fr sworn officers. There is some physical security thing. So if you have smething that's like indoors and you know, people can just like the state. For example, people used to just jump over the fence of the state, earned it in the fair, beef that up a little bit to ensure that, you know, we want to make the money, I think 8 or whatever. But I'm having those physical features in place to require less, you know, individual station around, you know, an event is one way and then. There's a for me and I can get it for you. But our special operations unit work with all
the with all the event organizers, they try to help them mitigate the costs as best they can. And so I remember first year for yet right? Do that. There's quite a bit of back and forth of There's a lot of pushback from them and, you know, they're trying to compare Saint Paul other cities and we work with them to come to a place that, you know, they thought was fair and just use. Because it's easy one just really begin to kind of encompasses everything. The smaller ones are tough you know, because we're very sensitive, sensitive those cars and we ensure we do we can to to work with them to help mitigate polls. One of the things that we do for the filling is You know, we estimate the billing and when we give them the estimate it always is not to exceed. Often times the bills come in less than than what
the estimated cost is. But we're really of that. And we're always looking for ways to to help mitigate those expenses. thank you. Just shake my head around this flat regardless of officers JANUARY. And also trying to figure how to ask this question. I think what I'm trying going to try to get at it. What is the difference between the rate that is charged and what if our most senior officer were to take that contractual overtime shifts. What would paid out? That make sense sort of? I think so on when we're through with think I think we'll get there. So. If we have a large extent and we have, you know, an officer with one year on and we have an officer, you know, went up 20 years on a commander who might have get a new commander, brand new commander Sergeant kind of on the
same same place we we could never give an estimate to any event organizers about what that would be because we give them those well in advance. So we do know is only working. I you know, this might be event I sent in for today. And it's, you know, a month when retire like its second. So you just we just can't do that. We came up with with kind of an average rate that would ensure that. You know, whether paying people in the high end or the low end of wherever they are there. And cba kind, the bargaining agreement with their parent is to ensure that we would be able to cover the department costs to include, you know, some things like vehicles and fuel and radio and some of the things that go on in the background like that. So does that answer your
question? Kind of. starting to and I will say for thank you. when anything can also offer, is it? I think what you what I'm hearing you to attempt to lake articulate, which difficult to understand, but is that there is sort of a set rate that we are contractually obligated for these events. But there's always a gap potentially or maybe we come under budget. But there's a flat rate that they have to pay regardless of if more senior folks. Respond to the request and the costs are over, but w never charged more than what that original contract cost is. Then also like never and or so the flat rate in the actual ce are variable, depending on who actually response to the overtime requests. Is that? The piece that you're
trying to get I think that's right. I think that you understand the flat is an average, but the the sstem is designed in order to make it easier for more senior officers paid at a higher rate, correct to be able to fill those shifts. And so wondering about that there. But and this is this is helpful starting. So then is your inquiry around like what is the average Delta that we have? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really great question. Very interested in that as well. The average what I'm the obvious difference between if more senior officers respond to the contract like Over the past, let's say 3, 3 years of contracts. What has been the difference between the can Paschall about the actual costs and but specifically looking at the amount that the city eat
swimmer over cost over the cost of I think I was yeah. Pleased. Is my hope to simplify it and we can what is the flat rate because I think it fluctuates each year. But what's a flat rate and like what is the hourly rate of like the most senior officer with that helped to know that difference? Yeah, I think that would. I think that would in terms of yes. So what I'm hearing is just a general understanding of what that hourly wage, depending on rank could look like. And then the to get to the larger question of what is difference between actual and estimated costs and especially
when serving for we're putting the extra part of health. So council PRESIDENT Ken customer, the current contract over time or even special dinner time right? That we checked. Bill is $126 an hour. That Part of your question. I don't I don't know that we've actually. Any costs because we usually tend to bill under what we estimate. But can find I can try to get MAY a average or something that would be acceptable. It just be hard I don't know. I don't know how difficult break it down for every single event. We'll figure it will combat casualty. I appreciate that is the request. And it's sort of like a soft that different number needs to be populated. That's fine. But just be clear that.
The ask us to see what the differences between the estimated in the actual and particularly when we are over. But sounds like we're not which is good but having the historical, you know, would be good. Any fall questions on. Yes, Giants beat the flat rate number 126.6%. And we usually adjusted with every year with the contract and the salaries go up, too. So. So and this like this talks about our tape. So over time that we just discussed, breaking it down by for burst over time. In 2024. 61 1% of or overtime was reimbursed. So that's going to be special events or contract over time. Things like that. The Orange category is city administered funding over time. So that's going to like the opioid summit take money
that we get. And then the next category is going to the green one. 33% in 2024, was from our general fund. So that's that's the one again, there are simple and watching the budget because we're working really hard to try to keep those costs down. Then in 2024 4%. Was budgeted expenses. So as you all know, that was an election year and we had a lot of visitors. And so those are your dignitary visits your mobile field events we gt a mutual aid request from Minneapolis when their officer was killed line duty. So we went over in assisted them as well. And you can kind of see if you look at the ran to the right call. Those cars have changed. So the 9 budget expenses it's not again, it's not election. You're gone down. The police general fund
excuse over time has gone down slightly by from 33 to 27%. The chief talked about that in his overtime again, we've worked really hard at trying squash. Push down those costs. And our commanders have really picked up, picked up the slack and worked really hard to do that. Since that as you can see the reimbursed over time has gone up. And a lot of that has to do with cost of the contracts gone up and some increased building for some events like the state fair. Got a question from Yeah, couple. A couple nod when Forton out that just I think a really I didn't get a chance to send this over head because we received the presentation sites today, but have a
probably able to receive them on Monday or a couple days before we been able to give this to you. But for the for all the slides that have hydrant. I'd love to see the numbers that actually are affiliated with them. The dollar amounts to. The percentages are great, but they don't really tell me much the next slide will get into some of the dollar breakdown pieces. But for all the future size as every pie chart. It would be great to see the. Actual numbers. The totals. Just because I can't really I'm assuming that as you through the apology, more contact so I was like all the way through the presentation. But I just wanted to know that because the percentages don't share much. And I think that it would be also helpful at
the same time to know what was budgeted that year and what was actually spent. So like for 2024, what wasbudgeted that year percent was spent in 2025. Was budget that year versus what was spent in all those scenarios, including like what we budgeted for Iran burst over time. So for doing ball, you know what we're doing for seeing that number. Go back. I think of the special events 2024 number special events in 2025. Numbers, official events. You know, I think we're starting to see some perks and those just more people wanting to show one of events here in our city and therefore needing to be able to kind of adding to this budget item which is helpful in the reimbursements for the services really helpful. And I think just being able to see those numbers is helpful because to me this is a pie chart. Percentage is but doesn't
share mch. I don't think captures of the numbers that are given. Because counselor Yeltsin president, can we can get that for you? So this and trapped. You're just as a question and I charges say enough enough. She floored. For this chart over time. Is are these percentages and dollar dollar shocked by that. I thought I just wanted to make Thank you. Okay. This is. Excuse me. This is the types of overtime that we have. Broken down a little bit different. Compares 2025 to 2024, if you look in the box, that's that reflects the general fund. And then. The the first column right after the green line. That is
also the general fund. Those are reimbursed expenses so you can look at it. The general fund because this is where this is where I get nervous. Excuse me. So we have courts stand by a court in standby. So not go to court and court stand by the if they just waitin the court. Homicide, a major crimes call outs. So that's going be the investigators along with our friends service cctv folks, when we have a homicide or another major to the crime. Staff shortages, the biggie, but staff shortages. Also one we've gotten. Don't. In spending in 2025, quite a bit due to the strategies that our patrol district chiefs have implemented along excuse a lot of different units that that were conscious schedules. So that's where that's where biggest expenses for general fund over time. And that's where we've been able to
impact. And again, you know, of with the decrease in violent crime. That does also impact homicide and major crimes all the they call. Again, that's gone down slightly something we can't control. We can't control what happens someone has to stay over, you just can't turn overseeing the somebody else. Holiday That's just the cost of doing business on aholiday. That's a contractual expense. Call back is another one that really hard to make sure that we manage our call back. Do we need to call country actually with with the Saint? Paul Police Federation is a call that clause where if you are call back into work year you get automatic for hours. Of And we work really hard to to mitigate that rather than
call people back t work as are resources out for people that are already here we can use or someone coming in rather than calling somebody back the question. Course, called in to work on their day off for their time off. And then just a point of clarification. So for the call back, it's a nod of 4 hours of pay. Is it over time a regular? If they're called back and it's over time, 10 minutes. And that our swat or slide over time is going up. We just use them a lot more than we have in the past. And it's proven to be much safer for for everyone in our community doing that. And then the special billing. That's again, that's to the first of the year. Filling that special of overtime. Then we get into the next Thomas billing of businesses. That's our contractual over time. We are reimbursed for that. Chs field. That's because we cut that went This - is little dfferent contract
and all the others. It's a very long-term contract that probably should end at some point building grant. So this is like rj Grants tz the toward 0 death. Traffic rents. Auto theft grants, things that we bill for we get reimbursed for from from governmental entities are grandpa's lighters. Doing task force? Officers. We we have officers assigned various task forces that when they work over 10 that gets reimbursed by the task force. Others going to be professional staff maybe parking enforcement, smaller categories that don't have that don't have a big impact or isn't a significant expense. Then we have the mobile field force and dignitary protection. And then Publix. This public safety is last one. And that's our 9 fatal shooting. And again, these are these
are all reimbursed. The public safety for the non-fatal shooting. It, which of 2 again has been extremely successful, increasing clearance rate 20% to about 70% and mde a huge, huge factor reducing our violent crime that will expire at the end of 2026, it's a program that time we're not gonna let go. It's been successful. I had a question start of the. How done over 10 hours or in terms of like shifts, they can seize the types. Appreciate that. So yes, white off my understanding is the officers earn overtime after an 8 hour shift versus another threshold. Is that incorrect? Can you kind of tell us through Lake? How that's broken down and when folks might start earning over time, because I think that was misunderstanding from last year. So can you just clarify for us how how that happens? Yeah. Thank you. Council
Lakers income so we run 3 shifts in the police department. Contractual. We have 8 hour shift. We have a 9 hour shift. We have a 10 hour shifts. Historically stays or Sean. They kind of get the best bang for your buck when you have for patrol officers, the cops and the in the squad cars. Responding 9-1-1. Calls. Have a 10 hour shift. You can't you can't have a ship and then start of the same time because then you're gonna have a gap. So. For folks on a 10 hour shift, they don't ern overtime until they go and to go beyond $10. Lot of our investigative units are a 9 hour shift. So we find that it's really important to people. We're all different schedules, trade and it's really important to make sure that we can catch are victims of. And this is early in the morning and late at night. So we we worked really hard to try to make sure that. We have investigators available from
from 7 to about 5. It's the exact same in every varies by need. So those folks are in a 9 or ship. So it gives us longer coverage drain during the days. And individuals on that schedule, they will not earn overtime until they go beyond their 9 hour shift. And then there's individuals like on an 8 hour shift secondly, not hourly, but you know, lot of our commanders there, an 8 hour shifts and a lot of our units are professional staff there on it hour shifts. So they want earn any overtime until they will be on the 8 hours. And this was my understanding from last year's loss. I appreciate this. But then it sounds like. Overtime is earned. Can be earned on almost a shift by shift basis instead of like the way that I would tink of over 10 applying after a 40 hour work week. That's when you start.
Earning over time. But what I'm hearing you say is that you could wear. It's any hour you spend or any amount of time you spend working longer than your contractual ship to start to earn overtime. That is correct. Okay. And and then to name the reasoning is to ensure coverage over shift change us. Can you say why? Why my besides maybe, you know, finishing out your last call or can you give some reasons why what sort of calls are things folks MAY be doing to started in crew. The per shift over time. Is it to cover shift change or what? What does that come from? It could be a whole host of things. So there could be a staff shortage on patrol. So is that you spoke about during his presentation. You know, we
have minimal. We've established minimums in our patrol districts so rather than south. If say I'm working the day shift, work. 75 tenure patrol shifts. And say they're short and officer to wear the afternoon on the afternoon shift and they start at 4 o'clock. They were till 2 in the morning. Rather than call in a whole nother body to to work, you know, the whole or partial shift. I can hold over myself a timer to maybe just work. Tour 3 hours to cover like the busiest time of the day, of a slide. The talks a little bit about that. Then at 10 o'clock, the overnight shift or the midnight shift comes in. So makes no sense to pay somebody to come in at 4 o'clock. And stay for a full 10 hour shift. If if the doesn't there. And then if we have someone coming at 10, so
try to manage it that way. And the same can go for for any of the Let's say I'm a homicide investigator and, you know, we arrest one of our suspects. Ellie, 3 o'clock and then at 4 o'clock and we get him in the interview room and he's talking or not to stop the interview. You know, when it's time to punch out, you know, once you suspect talking, you're going to stick with it. And same thing. You know, another good example, as is crime victims as well. It's the same type of deal when you make a connection with a crime victim, whether you're the investigator Patrol officer and they're on a roll on their taught you just want to keep in touch just to shut them down. For what's in kind, that's so important her to go to traumatic experience. But it helps us help them hal, get them the justice they
deserve. So those are just a couple of examples. Appreciate that. One clarifying question that will go to Is that is that sort of? Department policy. Is that an year like union contract that? That shift that shift basis. Northern time. Is that where? Where is that sort of outlined are determined your contractors that the see the time and a half rates in the country is in the and how you earn it is in the contract. Yes. Okay. Thank Chair Lee. Thank you so much. Vice PRESIDENT Thanks so much. Chief particularly around. Learning about how overtime works, particularly at a cost base analysis. I wasn't aware that it was
a shift by shift. I was under the impression like you price for the camera thinking of overtime as 40 hours and let you go over the start accruing that over time. I can definitely see Shift by shift you could easily go into overtime. I just think about our our line of work, you know, easily can go until over time. If we had, you know, that type pay structure. I'm just very curious, particularly who makes the call around granting overtime because some of your examples, you know, sincerely I can see right here at a Kyle are investigating. Know you could just just innocently naturally go over that time. But is there a in terms of like a supervisor sergeant? What is that management like, ok, you are granted more time or, you know, very twice what
you out for the day. think ultimately customer can. That's that's a great So in the contract talks of a fair and equitable distribution of overtime. So we work really hard to do that. Our homicide unit are non-fatal shooting it and our violence that they have on call. Investigators. And it's and they're on a rotation because you can't be on call and available. All the time, likely you can't do that to people. a lot in the in those units that we based on who's on call to ensure that. No one individuals very more of the workload. Sometimes would. You know, if you have a one of those types of crimes that. That, you know, I have a couple in a week and you might pick up one or 2 cases during that week. So you might get a little you might have a little more overtime or la Times unit commander sale. Have to case you get to had cases that
you've got to work. Were going to bringing somebody else. So in the investigative unit says that way. So part in our gang unit and our special investigations unit are special enforcement the folks that quote in support. Those investigations by doing the surveillance and the other takes work lot of times for that. It's it's it's kind who's available Some people. It's important to give people their time off and to ask more of one than the other. You can't do that, you want to burn people out. But lot of it is was aailable and it kind of balances out the commanders do a really good job, ensuring that that everyone gets equal opportunities for overtime. When you go into patrol. If I'm if I'm patrol officer working and I'm off at 4 and I pick up, you know, the car accident at, you know, 3.30. I'm gonna it's Mike Hall. I'm going to stay on it to La to London. The sergeant isn't
going to reassign that once you're there and you're involved in your engage with the people. I mean, you own it take ownership of that stuff. That's where some what we do. But you're just not going say up 4 o'clock. You got to go home. And I'm gonna bring in a brand new person who knows absolutely nothing about this call. And, you know, half the victims have been transferred the hospital after witnesses gone home. Just you just can't do that for that. The continuity of the case. Is when the clarified. Sounds like different units have different people. And but you said in general for us like this one officers, the sergeant who makes a call. Yeah, I mean. investigative unit, it's going to be the commander. They're going to stab on call
schedule. So everyone kind of knows, you know, several months out, who's who's o call call the 4th of JULY. I don't have the holiday this year, but we want to some certainty. But for patrol, it's a little more. It's a little different and, you know, our officers a really about taking care of each other if they know, you know, is today's what's today. Wednesday, Wednesday. Yeah. So today is my. They work on a rotating. The also patrol officers. We have 7 letter days You can have one of 7 different types our schedules. So they know that today is my Friday. I'm going into a four-day weekend, which is Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. More likely than not someone else's. Got it. Grab that late call so that I can go home with ongoing out a toner or things like that. Take care of each of 2. Thank you. Just. Thanks for thanking I'm someone common cause
that discussion another Separate question. I think the shift by shift. Over time, especially for patrol officers really make sense to me because, you know, if I'm working my my other job as an engineer and doing, you know, said you like for a 9 hour days, I could work for hours the next day. And there's not impact to the service soon as that impact of the services were providing. But you wouldn't do that in this type of work. So I think, you know, shift by shift makes sense because you're not going reduce your hours to be at 40 hours. You could still work the full shift later. So whether it's a question not knowing you're going to still, feel that all of those shifts overtime doesn't seem to makes sense to to adjust. Seems easier way to track time has also thinking depending on like the increment in which you track your time, it might be more accurate. That way to do it on a shift by shift basis, potentially. And then so is my comment. And my other question, just what we're
looking at, the slides and the the dollar values, especially for the general fund. Is this basically all of the over time, the dollar amount for all the overtime hours. No matter where the source in the general fund is. So whether it's and we budget for overtime in our budget. And then it's also my understanding that some of the and it was just like later about this. But some of unfilled for the vacant sworn fte is that some of that funding? It's used to cover the costs of these and some just particularly wanting to make sure that, you know, even if the the source were to come from the 60's, for example, that are not filled that that still captured in the numbers in front of us. Is that correct? So the slaters all the overtime for the first 6 months of the year. The
Greenback's is the general Fund. As far as the vacancies and attrition. it's like fashioned agency. The office team over there. We don't necessarily get the attrition, my the vacant I mean, the event pride which in this because this is book Keeper on that. We get that in our budget, the vacancies. But they use that at the end of the year to balance books at the end is that? Just seeing knots from from our office folks. So as for chief Ford, so so then that seems that the actual total amount of money spent on overtime might not be captured in numbers some of the vacancies were attrition used to balance the budget for overspending from overtime at the end of the year. Is that
correct? I think so. Yeah. that's getting really into the And accounting practices that I'm probably not prepared to. is a national day. Is because, you know, if we had 50 f to use that word filled and that amounts to several billion dollars, maybe 5 million dollars. That's just a significant amount of money. And I recall hearing last year, I don't know if it was chief 100 that's of this, but that and know if it was all types of overtime or justice just department over time, but that there was $650,000 a month in overtime. So that's more than the numbers in front of us. And I guess when we are talking with the fire department and wind understand just the cost of running the city specially we're talking residents about why we're, you
know, you know, increasing property taxes by certain amount every year. We just want to make sure we're getting an understanding of the total cost to provide the services that our residents expect and what they're getting because they are getting the services from you from department, which is so important just understanding that cost important to us. You know, think the the note that I written down with that often, but not always. UConn for overtime Mason's from making positions rather than by directly for actual overtime costs. Is that? 2 false? I could present you a question as well. But it's basically getting and is asking is that yu you supplements they can see savings in order to provide
overtime to supplant the overtime budget. But because of maybe the way the accounting unit is being accounted for, the true costs of overtime MAY be getting lost in search of the county unit question. So I think that's that, sir, the question that we're after is house overtime accounted for in terms of actual cost. If its if we're not able to track it, if it's getting lost in like county line and Yeah. Like by source, fda's hello. Council vice PRESIDENT Council members. What you're seeing here is actual isn't and not budget. So there is another sort of side of this equation of comparing. Budget to actuals and then, yeah, this is specifically just over times. It doesn't
reflect attrition or vacancy savings. So those are other aspects of that equation that are not part of the numbers that you see here. And I regards to weather vacancies are used for over time. I would say that they supplement the overtime budget. I mean, some of the reason the overtimes necessary is because there are the vacancies. So they they go hand in hand. Yeah, but I think the naming naming the maybe specific question that we're after that is when we see that reported as an overtime costs. The U.S. The cost. Amount that we're playing from staffing to support over time. Do we see it as an overtime costs or do we see that still has just like staffing costs, like how
do we track that number is a transfer is over and over Time. Council vice PRESIDENT, I believe that would show has just like staff shortage over time here. But I think we want to confirm with the police accounts. That sounds good. I hope that question makes sense. And then you can help us from into question that make sense. Next think you so much. Sure, John said and we've ton minutes and tell a So after this question, i think let the system she finished the slides and admissions at the end. So can we just cleared again on the months captured here? Is this. Just the first 6 months of the year? So just from JANUARY to Cars vice PRESIDENT Came.
Yes, that's correct. Okay. And then so I just want to make sure that that's a clarifying question. A clarified here as well. Because this isn't the de-fuel projections for 2024. And I think the math tracks for the $650,000 per month. That's there. If you include everything. And I think that's where like I just reiterate, I think it would be really helpful to have. We budgeted for that make it. So this is great to have the action was here. Just like what is happening here today. I don't know how that. Translates to like what planned to spend. And I think that part of the huge driving of this conversation is because it it appears to us that when we see what we see wanted, I think Spencer versus what budgeted for the optimism ultimately somewhere in there and be very helpful to understand that
peace, because I think that's what sparked some of the competition last year chief and I think being able to have. That clarity and also to be able to plan in the future. That's going to be really helpful. The other piece I'm still trying to, I guess I'm trying to differentiate those from the general fund to the ones that are not in the general and contacts of like. Is everything to the right like outside of the green box. Reimbursable and it's so with that include the like. That special events and the gate like any Delta that we have her like. I know there's been questions around like a special events as the Spurs. I mean that everything here is reimburse the multiple millions that are captured at Boxer, all reimbursable up
until this point. Customer Justin was income. You got everything in the green bikes is is gneral fund. Over time. It's not reimbursed everything outside the green box reimbursed. The only outlier is the one that's building special events. That's part of the general fund. But it is reimbursed mission of me that actually different color. Okay. So it's it's reimburse and that's what want. So everything. For special events things of that has been rivers are. Correct. Outside All right. Well, you got a role to get through the sides come place. That is next one. PRESIDENT Kim, he's just kind of a different breakdown of the general fund over time, year-to-date for 2025, as you can see, staff shortages
always the biggest all others. So many categories that it's up there. And then you get down the slide the homicide and major crimes. To call outs. This is just kind of a recap of our staffing were authorized for 6.19. The budget proposal for 2026. Will take us down to 6.19, which doesn't account for the new units that have been created since we're at 6.19, like Special Operations unit, the Aspire the non-fatal shooting it and and others. The threshold for staffing shortage is it once it gets beyond or 9% it tends to tends to cost more money and there were here's here's a a here's a brief. Here's a kind a line of what our schedules look play that we were talking about earlier. I didn't know that the
slide would be useful until we had that conversation earlier. So if you look at tour one that starts at 7 in the morning and was until 05:00pm. So military time apologize. And then we have early start. Afternoon shift toward to that starts at 2. So and tis is a project actually time in about 2020 1920, 17 I was a new commander, we found that there was sent a significant increase in calls from about 02:00pm to 06:00pm. And that was where we had some gaps in coverage and it was costing us. Some overtime we were dealing with the overtime, the staffing issues. We were front today. But this ship was created to kind of cover that gap. And then you see 16 0, 2. That's 42 in the morning. That's the afternoon shifts. And again, that's that's
that's really our busiest time of the day, in my opinion. And I think the numbers will back that up for parts of shifts and then the overnight shift is 10:00pm to 8 in the morning. Once you get to about 3, the 3 in the morning, things slow down. Significantly so so we can taper that often. The and then one of the questions was asked was average hours by So for the overtime hours that we spend. 61% of the green there. As for police officers, which makes total sense we have. That's largest of of work of staff. And, you know, when you go to like an x o event or a stadium of it, you don't need for commanders You don't need 6 commanders 10 service. Any cops, you know, directing traffic and things like that. You know, because there's more when they sign up
for more the contract over time as well. Surgeon's table. 29%. Commanders take up 9% and then one percent would be a professional staff. And again, for commanders, it's always these large-scale events. We have an operations plan and incident commander. And you have, you know, like Grandal Day, for example, you're gonna have an incident commander here to have. Grand Avenue blocked off in the sections managed by different sergeant's. To deal with that. And then there were some questions, if I MAY cause was PRESIDENT That were submitted that I want to answer from Commander Products unit Commander Council member of week. Has just got a motion Twitter, but I like that address those real quick and they're not on the slide. It's going just one note that on the jury and this is very prompt started 2 o'clock. And
I would like to give a 3 minute break for councilmember. So if we can keep this to the next 120 seconds, recognizing we're not going to get everything. But the follow up. So yeah, if you can just I think recently a few questions that were submitted and then just know that will be happy to distribute those answers to the council. Can do that a well. If you prefer and interest surveys time. That sounds I think we I give you time to ask your question live because they're written questions that were submitted maybe let's do Folks around him with that to give a little a tiny bit of break. Yeah, I have my follow-up question regard to the events and festivals and I have, you know, the chief that I believe you have all those questions, particularly wanted things last year that we put in the budget is for events and
festivals and we want to help bolster our are free and open to the public events and festivals and to learned things that I wanted to examine. As we're looking at those investments is what percentage of the special events and festivals are actually fee and open to the public like some of those grassroots organizations. And particularly in a follow-up question Chair Johnson. What percentage is actually reimburse particularly we know like businesses, their contract. You know, we can guarantee that they have and their budgets rights of those large organizations, corporations. But for our event, organizers, many of them are coming to the city, the county, the state, our philanthropy, to cover some of
those costs and it would be helpful for us to know what margins are. If there are organizations are struggling, you know, how do we know if we have the information? We can look at what investments and star pd can actually help fulfill that. So I just wanted to just state that on record because when I did request I'm for some of those bills and how how the tracking of the years of how often people actually paid back. That's the intent behind it. And I think that information and that transparency is going to be helpful council's decision on how we want to support and service folks. Councilor we come so I can tell you that this year. Through JUNE, we've invoice. 1.5 million. Overtime. For reimbursed over time. And we
11,900 outstanding. And then as far the margins that we talked about earlier in the presentation, what we have a list dark and as that and we'll get that information for you. Actual estimated cost versus what ended up being billing. Thank you, everyone for your time and attention. I pledge is getting into all the questions that were submitted but they haven't submitted. Sounds like answer prepared. So will help that follow-up to the council members that asked questions by email in preparation and with that, Budget and Finance Committee of the Council is