It's a full City Council policy Committee to order Roll Call, please. Council PRESIDENT Maker here. Come summer, believe here. House member toast here, Councilmember Coleman here. Council vice PRESIDENT Can. Councilor Yang hre. Councilmember Johnson. Seeing. 5 PRESIDENT To have sun and they are excused. Thanks so Good morning, everyone. Welcome to a policy committee meeting. The 2 items on our agenda today and believe we have roughly equal time allocated to about 45 minutes for each. We will start with teensy licensing updates and looking MR. Mitchell. Good Morning Council PRESIDENT Council members,
thank you for the afternoon to present this morning on transportation network companies has been I ran into Bill on the way over and we're saying it wasn't too long ago. That team sees where this novel's new technology. The way talks about it just like surface to run in the bills. I think that was back in 2014. It was such a new thing and really change the market, at least as we've all seen. But spend and 12 years. And so it's time to start to really look at that odinance. So what we consider tweaking and refining of the ordinance based on what we've learned, but also based what we're seeing in the market right now. So that's what we're going to see before is just some we see is small, but actually actually impactful ordinance events for looking at. We don't have a very definitive language. We're still working in the city attorney's office on that. But we're very close. You'll get
the idea. So we're just a matter of week things like that. So the content was, you know what we're shooting for? The couple of words might change as well as we'll do some final round tnt's. But we've not gotten any pushback. We've got concerns which we think we can address in the language that we're looking So that's going to transportation network companies means a person or entity affiliated with tnc drivers that arranges by the Rangers, transportation services via Internet. Internet based transportation applications system connecting tnc endorsed drivers, with passengers for the transport of passengers for compensation. That is chapter 3.73 of which is where we're looking to do ordinance amendment. Purpose of the ordinance amendments like I
mentioned before is to take what we've learned and what we're seeing in the market and do some tweaks to the original is adopted in 2014 in particular. We want to refine our compliance enforcement model and 2 is we want to recognize the growing number of businesses in the market. So first we find compliance and enforcement model the way our enforcement model compliance enforcement models built. It's really about making sure people know who they're getting into a car with as well as what's a vehicle like that. The ride again. So we really focus on vehicle inspections as well as criminal history checks on drivers so south 2 things that we want to look at, one is we don't have the ability to what's called a random unannounced inspection through
the app. The idea being one of our inspectors would call up and say, I want to get a ride. They would arrange rise up or up and we do inspection. Couple things will be looking for just the driver match was supposed to be there is the vehicle on the condition that supposed to be and do the other insurance and the other documentation required. So it's really making sure the person driving is actually the person who's supposed to be driving and the vehicles in the condition they expect. There will be no internal less. The driver can sense. It's really just really quick. Show us where you are. Shows your paperwork. Around. And then if they can said we would do internal just looking for the stuff that tnc related, only nothing else will be looking for if we see problems with the vehicle, then we would request that they bring their vehicle and had within
48 hours to designated location for a full vehicle inspection. So the idea is these are really quick randomized inspections. Allows us to do. I think a better service for the drivers as well as a better service for our staff and trez a deficiency ad effectiveness and getting us more - information of what's actually happening on the street. He regards to drivers trips in generated and received. MR. Before think so just to make sure understand our dsi staff. Doing these inspections based on the list o drivers that you receive. So right now we do not do random inspections right now. What we do is we get on names from the teen seas and they basically tell us. Yes, we've done a criminal history. Check on this individual as required by
ordinance. We've also done a vehicle inspection because a requirement in ordinances that each vehicle is receives a vehicle inspection annual basis. And they have to have all those records. So what we're going to be doing is sort of making sure what they've done is actually what is what we're seeing there. So we don't inspect at all. Well, we have to a certified inspector yet. So we have entities who we certify, which is where they go and we use the experts to look at breaks and things like that. Make sure all the technical parts are actually what they need to be. Okay. So random unannounced inspections through apps is not happening right now. So yes, right now. What we do is we're just looking at the documentation. They haven't troubled histories and documentation. They have a
vehicle inspections and then we can request a vehicle go to a shop to be inspected. A shot that's approved by ourselves. Great. Thanks for patient. So right now we're really reliant on tnt businesses to provide us list of drivers. So we don't know for sure. Do we have a dry run, the platform that they would not provide us a name and we have no method to terminate Calista attorney at the list includes all the drivers. The second part is criminal history checks. One of the requirements is that platforms do a criminal history check before higher as well as an annual basis. And they're set criteria by which they can either accept or reject that driver. Right now. They tell us that we do criminal history checks. We can send over a request x number of games and they can then tell us, yes, we've got a
criminal history check. We just want to make sure we have the best method make sure that they've done the check. But also that has been a thorough check and they've actually followed up and all the incidents. That's a part of the criminal history Just want to get verifying the work that they're doing. But we like to do at Dsi is compliance and enforcement. We do want to manage some anxiety. We want to make sure they're managing their business properly and giving us some checks and balances making sure the data they've done is what it is. And they're following up on it and making sure what they tell us is actually happening. So that's for refining at the plight force model. The next one is a growing number of businesses in the market. Has a number of you where we had a dramatic increase, especially in the last 3 years interest
as well players join the market. Business is very insights. And the beginning there were the 2 big players and now we're seeing a lot more players of varying sizes. And businesses begin operating throughout the year and the beginning, we had 2 operators, he said, ok, FEBRUARY for us, everybody has to redo. They have to do their insurance states accordingly, which becomes an obstacle over time. So looking at that. You want so with that's what we're looking at is tat, given the fact that now we have varying size entities were looking at what is the appropriate fee size because we have more players, which means we have more revenue to pay for our enforcement because we cannot charge of licensing fee that isn't being used for the cost
enforcement. We have more players. Therefore we can reduce the fees that each entity place pace. We also look at what is the impact of entity honored forsman efforts and that's where size comes in. Initially were just looking at a single which would then about $12,500 a year, which is a drop from about $35,000 a year which we currently have. So a significant drop looking at the tier system that we should be making final recommendation working with the administration in the next few days. It would be a 2 tier 3 hand in the lowest. 1, 2, would be the 6,000, the highest the highest year would be about 17,005, 518,000. So that's where the ball for right now. But definitely we're looking at a significant decrease in license fees for short-term are for
transportation network companies and pass. But a little more for the smaller companies that way so that those are details that were working in. The result of the ordinance would be we could conduct random unannounced inspections. Could verify drivers history checks and be confident that the information we have is accurate and that tnt's are utilize that information to approve or to deny drivers we can see and feel the Lord, the license fees and then eliminate the need for FEBRUARY. Only insurance Somebody starts in SEPTEMBER. We want to get the ability to have a SEPTEMBER first to SEPTEMBER. First insurance and renewal. He gets just more complicated you have to do 6 months insurance when your insurance is a standard, it's a tease here. People can do just to the one year so we would take away the FEBRUARY insurance requirement and make it a one year requirement for
insurance. That will stand for any questions. Questions from MR. Nadella. The PRESIDENT With Dan. I really appreciate your presentation and I want thank you for giving us such information. I was. I'm very interested moving this forward in front of the council as soon as possible because there have been teams sees reaching out to me about the need for us right-size licensing fees. And I my first question is I know you mentioned the renewal date of FEBRUARY first. And so one of my concerns I shared with the tnc is that reached out to me was. What happens if contrary for some, there isn't any amendment to the fees at all and they're having to pay that and it would mean that those who aren't able to pay te hefty fees are public and have
to to stop their operations pretty much throughout the state because many of their customers 20 to go to and from Saint Paul. And so I was wondering he would be able to talk to talk a bit about that. Is there a way for us to get around the FEBRUARY first that line? Thank you, Council PRESIDENT Councilmember Yang, thanks for the question. Right now we have a little opportunity for a but factor, shall we say right now we're moving all our licenses and the pali all our new licenses are able to be secured through policy but nt color renewals. One of those renewals that we don't have an Paul yet as transportation network companies. So we're sending out a message to our licensees that we rolling out. Different vices safes were already doing annually on sale liquor because of the need for liquor liability insurance regards to 10 season will be coming in in
the near future. Going to be sending out a notice to licensees to wait for their invoice. And when they get there, they'll still be able go into politics at this point time. If they don't renew on FEBRUARY 1st, that is fine because that will be sending out invoice for them and we won't penalize them until we actually send out an invoice to give them a time frame to pay it. It would be going through Poly. In addition to that any time that somebody fails to pay a renewal that has adverse licensing action, as you all know and that, you know, before you it for a final decision. So if there is any concerned about delay or things like that, that final decision on any fine or fee for late Newell would come before yourselves. That thing
that we will make sure of is that all transportation network companies have their liability current. So we will do checks and that just make make sure that's caruso's laws or insurance is current. Wait for the invoice that will be coming in in the near future. Thank you. That's very reassuring. And I appreciate you sharing about that in detail that resolves the concern that I that I also heard directly from the chances too, might want to think dsi for your hard work and engaging with the tnc. As I know that when I spoke with director, we see it all to you all heard about these concerns, not just from one to come company, but many. And so I'm just very grateful in which the ways in which you're taking that input and putting it into action bring something forward and for and for the council. I am very supportive
of a tiered structure for the fees. And looking forward to what that will look like. I do have a few more questions and I I'm wondering, you mentioned right now the tsa isn't currently doing the inspections but wants to. Can you talk a bit about how we'll be able to fill the staffing need fr that? So we We have staffing well, except for law staffing during the to covid situation. So we will have to be building in because we have staffing built and that's where we get the fee. So it's a different way of what we're doing because in the past it was looking where hard records making sure by doing the random stuff we efficiency by what we'll see. And then the record check ins way do that way. So it's a little bit different. So are changing some of the work we were doing this play and do it this way. So we'll be dealing with the safe staffing levels that we
had. We basically implemented the program. Okay. Thank Can you just share with us generally like, well, what are the different factors that you considered as you are? Thinking about right-sizing, the fees I would love to hear, but about that. So writes it the first thing we have to look at is what is the cost of doing enforcement. So that's where the target. Then we look at what do we think the market share is going to be how many market players are we looking at in that? And then from there we think, okay, based on that, this is what we shoot for. And then from there based on what our costs are, it's really about the number of drivers, the number of drivers is which generates our work. So we if we got all that, I understand that a number of drivers, her that's going to result in, you know, x percentage of drivers being
checked in a given year. So that would be the proportionality that we be looking for. So we be setting this group, you know, and Chancey with, you know, and are, you kow, 500 drivers tend to between 502,000 2000. Plus, we could proportionately that make the fees because that related to the work we're doing around enforcement and that would be the basis of the season. ok, thank And then my last question is. And wondering about, actually, I I have to have 2 more. That might the first one here is and wondering if you can lay out, what does penalty look like in terms of company not be in compliance and is that information those penalties laid out in the? And you sort of which you all are bringing forward to us. Comes PRESIDENT Has been it's into our adverse Licensing Matrix. So it
similar to most of the license adverse that we d. First penalty is $500. 1030 2000, a 10 day suspension for some traffic Haitian. So very so much to all our license types. The only things are certain differences for on sale, liquor and tobacco. But generally all are on licenses. Has a General Matrix, ok? Thank you. And then my last question is just related to our budget, especially when it's as identity about. Just even our budget for this year. I know that this is a reduction in fees that tsa is proposing. So can you talk about any sort of fiscal impacts that we are going see in front of upon approval of the new of the. But you're proposing council PRESIDENT
Comes for Yang. We do not see this as a budget impact because by having additional players in the market. We are getting additional revenue, which is why we're saying is time for us. Reduce the fees to reflect that because we can only collect the fees associated with the work that we're doing it. So therefore, we're not seeing this as a budget impact and by the fact that what we're doing is just we want to marry but in a slightly different framework. I think that's fantastic. Thank Thank you. Thank you for that question missing and for your leadership this issue for the policy committee as well, MR. Joke, I just have one question. Really it's a little of missing was just asking about in terms of making sure that our license fees cover our costs. I appreciate what you're saying about. We have
more players. We have a fixed cost to some extent each of them can pay last night. I also support the idea of having a tiered structure I have. I guess I'm just wondering the kind of enforcement you're talking about the random unannounced inspections that additional enforcement does seem like it would come potentially with additional cost to the department potentially additional staffing. I just want to make sure that as your doing the math on what we need from each of the companies were also taking into account the additional cost that some of these enforcement elements might incur. Council PRESIDENT, very good question. I appreciate people who are diligent about budget and staffing. But our pleasure. As I look at this,
we are basically replicating have staff requirements, free So the idea is not to change, but the expectation was when we created the program in 2014 in terms of workers, staff requirements ad therefore the budget would go accordingly. I will note that has seen a budget cutter and covid and we have not returned to that staffing level. So we do need to manage within that. Those one thing that we are conscious of when you ask about budget, that is something we're very conscious of the staffing level. We had pre-covid. This is more than we have currently. And so we manage with in that level. But in terms of the program, the recruiting for tnc is the same staffing expectation. We just have to given the staffing level. We have overall for the
division. Makes sense. Yes, it I think speak for many of us here. Would you know, the ordinances that we pass really is going to the enforcement that ultimately. Often your department is able to provide so I do support the department thinking broadly about what kind of staff and you need, especially again, if something like this is going to create additional It likely won't be possible for the same amount of staff who, as you mentioned, have already been reduced. So. Just an encouragement to make sure you're building that into your calculations. And we really appreciate the support that one day. I just want t thank from the department safety inspections us for we get from the council. It's something we do appreciate the value place in our work for for departments. So thank you for that question and making sure that's question say front and center
because we really do appreciate it. Thank you, Brand that Questions comments on this. I think does or does have another person on this topic than any other questions for MISTER Rangel. Seeing any, ok, so thank you so much. Do you have a sense as to when I know that that after policy committee, usually sponsor, the in this case with the England confirm with the department figure out whether or not ordinances are moving forward. In this case, it seems like one is and it sounds like soon. PRESIDENT And with one thanking also the city attorney's office, our partner in doing that. They make sure we walking the right path and don't get ourselves in trouble, which, you know, we tend to. Journey sometimes one way the other, but they've been great partners and will be down the road. We're expecting to meet
with them, hopefully to finalize languish and talk to Councilmember Yang about the final language we have as well as talking to the administration just to make sure that everything all the I's are dotted and t's are crossed. But I'm expecting b the end of next week, we should have everything wrapped up package wise to build, bring to councilmember Yang and then bring to your cells for consideration. Like mentioned, we've already sent a letter out to the transportation network companies. So they know some of the general language we're looking at got some feedback generally favorable. Tey're really looking for more of the specific. So because one of the things that I should mention, I apologize. With the random unannounced visits, the chances would be required to compensate the driver for each one that we would get. So sense that it's not taking a
driver off the clock and losing money. Tey would still be compensated that way. We'd be looking at the state model, which is if it's a cancel the ride, Etienne, Cesar responsible for 80% payment of that particular. Right. So given the fact that our checks are gonna be designed to be very short. It's gonna be shorter than the ride that they would have had otherwise. We'll be working with the team to some make sure what's a reasonable ride costs and things like that. And so therefore on their concerns as well. How many of these are you going to do year? What's the cost to us? Well, we're seeing a few reduction. We're also they're going to be picking up some of the costs associated with that Those a couple think details that will work with them. But we're not seeing any major pushback at this particular time. Thank you very much. Thank you all
for right. And I believe we have a representative from one of our tendencies move. Food is here to. Talk just briefly, come up. Welcome. And sorry. I don't have your name handy. But if you want to start with introduce yourself and then the floor is yours. And we're getting a presentation of the evidence. council PRESIDENT. Thanks for having First my name is Mary to me. I'm the founder and ceo of Move. We are Minnesota's first locally founded Rideshare Fright. Jump into details. I didn't want to thank council member Ian for representing us in request. We then but office for a while also want to thank Sarah Palou and Sony for supporting us as well. Little bit about move. I started working on move at the end of 2023. What I want to the community problem and so build the apps, got him in the app store. Apply for licensing. By coincidence around the time that we're
ready to launch all of the rideshare kind ordinance changes happened at early 2024. So we quickly gained want to say about 8, 900 drivers. And a backlog about 3,000 customers who want start using our service. Unfortunately, one of the issues we ran into licensing fees for both city of Minneapolis, City of Saint Paul currently for sale. A licensing fee is listed at $41,115. And for a startup. That's a pretty large amount. In addition to the $100,000 insurance policy that we have to buy per statute. And so we're really in support changes to move this licensing structure to tiered structure, fees. And the reason is that, you know, while we want to do our best to operate at, you
know, the size of like Uber or Lyft. We are starting and so we look for when the city and the state says that they want to support small businesses. We look for that's come through in these types of policies. I'll be honest through 2024 2025 licensing fees and statement insurance has taken about 90% of our funding. And so while we want to grow and bring this amazing service to the community, we continue have to dump all our dollars and overhead just to exist and we have no ability to actually get the word out so people can use move. We do have 0% safety incident. Great. And so much safer, right? Sure. We make sure that we adhere to every policy. We also pay drivers a high and so we pay drivers currently 90% of the writer and the eating
at currently at a loss. But Enright we operate it almost nonprofit rates. So again, you know that the goal of move is to really focus on community needs. And so we're founded by u of m Saint Thomas in the Keller says students and alumni and we are currently the driver preferred right in the state. The one thing I'll add is that we're really supportive of some of the policy changes here. Made aside from the fee structure we have seen, especially when the rideshare kind of no he started 12 other companies that popped up on that with 7 of their founders and none of them had a plan to get insurance. They were like, I haven't up that. I hired someone in another country to build. And I'm just going to start operating. And so we've seen throughout the community. And not all of that's enough
area. Some of its like really entrepreneurial students who like want to do something for class, but they operate without insurance protections. They operate without, you know, background checks. And this just creates unnecessary risk. Ultimately, you know, the values that community's perception towards start-up writers. So I want t think that Seifert take an opportunity to kind of look at this and help enforce the process and put some updated requirements around it. Also happy to support this process in any way. So that there's a sense of the driver, customer and community side. Thank you so much. Do one more picture in your present? I do yet. His was just knife or There's just something from one of our pitch I really do want to emphasize that startups like move are all about bringing the community together. Every one of our
interns, every one of our paid staff. I've been to myself, but I do pay staff from local universities. And so allowing us to have like a reduced fee, really freeze up budgets that we can continue to do this type of work, right to bring careers to local students, local graduates to bring that entrepreneurial experience to them and it wouldn't be possible that, you know, paying 40,000 for Saint Paul last year in Minneapolis is like 30 something 1000. So I really want to thank the council for considering moving this the structure that makes more sense frankly I in line with what a lot larger cities are doing. Thank you so much for the presentation. Thank you for investing in Saint Paul of the island. Love the local routes. Other questions or comments. Thanks, council PRESIDENT. I don't have any questions they want to say. Thank you, Mary, for coming and
presenting today. Just remember when we first met and you shared about the mission and the mission of move, I was very moved and blown away by it. And I'm just you know, very grateful to you and your team for choosing to do business here in Saint Paul and especially centering your work around college students, especially like I remember my days in college. And it was always pretty hard to get around. I was always waiting for the bus system for you during that time it gets a time where many students trying to figure out how do I find the most affordable way incoming way to get around in? I'm very glad that our college students here in Paul, have you all as an alternative option that is rooted in
community, rooted dignity and respect for your drivers fr your customers. And we leak ensuring that year providing top notch quality to everybody. And so I very again. Grateful to you for your advocacy and too many other chance. He's too, because that work really what led us to be where we are today. So thank you. Yeah, thank you. Again, the community things a huge part of what we Currently. We offer a couple of programs like of students show. It's an a on the report card or exam score. We get free ride credit because we just want to encourage, you know, education also for any members of community that have been taken to the Whipple building for free rides back home. So popular in the app that Let's get you home you get a free ride cell community is is one of our biggest killers. Thank Thank you. Thank you,
council PRESIDENT And thank you. Councilmember Yang for just bringing this topic on. I am very excited. Actually just download the app. Just to learn more about it. So I think on the engagement that you're doing is admirable. I also just want just say, like being entrepreneur from to aspirin or we understand like the cost that we pay to actually make sure we have like a public good right. And I'm just curious just to that that you have mentioned earlier. Do you have plans only branching out of Minnesota are at their already been. Now. Have you seen better strides in other states? We currently only operate in Minnesota. However, we are looking to branch out to
communities that similar issues, a bunch of different states constantly of lawsuits against competitors. So those are probably be to expand team starting with the Midwest. Most likely Detroit and to cover your next expansion areas. That's where we hear the most of feedback from drivers and riders. Thank you. Thank you for the questions and comments. Anything else for my colleagues. It doesn't look like it. Thank you very much again for being here. Their service. With that, we will shift gears. No pun intended. Both act out. This was like a triple drive study. Well, we have 2 cups of coffee. So we will come up. MISTER Builder, money. Is PRESIDENT. MISTER CHAIRMAN is doing this just a reminder. My colleagues, I
think he's also giving us this time frame. But just a jogger memories because I know it's felt like 1000 years just since 2 weeks ago. This is a topic that we've heard about a couple of different times now. We laid it over to FEBRUARY 18th. It'll be coming back to us But in part, we did that because we're in the midst of a district zoning study that we thought might have some implications for this ordinance change. And we wanted to wait for that to be done. Want to have a chance to hear MR. Me about that. One of chance to talk together about that impact, the consequences of that one there. Another. And then we wanted to take up the Probably that was what MR. Devotees of absence for slide. But welcome, MR. One slide down. Thank you. Council PRESIDENT Has reversed. Are you able to see my
presentation slides? Now? Yes, that's Thank you. So, yes, I like give a little background and then talk about what happens with the to study. How in Texas and lay out a for policy questions for the council to consider. So, they were public hearings in 2024. Couple layovers, the council and this will be on your FEBRUARY 18th agenda. For continuation. Secondly. To give you an idea of the scale, the said the Drive-thrus in Saint Paul as of couple years ago. He's minimal change since then. The coffee shops. We had only 2 of them. Both West 7th, 3rd one has been approved. But I don't think built 35 year mark in north of city. Banks are scattered throughout the city. Pretty. Pretty widespread fast food restaurants. There's
definitely a pattern where there are a lot on University Avenue West, 7th Rice streets along I-94 east side. And pharmacies. We've got a few of those as well. Although the cbs a couple cbs closed since this map was. there are problems with Drive-thrus, I just want to give a a cursory overview of that. What problems trying to solve here? They potentially conflict with our comprehensive plan policies most especially these that are listed that promote high-quality urban design that sports for for old friend. Witness that we hve active streetscapes with active first floor uses and that we're shifting mode share towards walking and reducing the need
car ownership. There is a particular site that was a particular problem which MAY seem like ancient history, but it was certainly a big deal when it happened in 2016. The Starbucks U.S. Now live Marshall was approved at met all of the city regulations. No city regulations are the same as they were. So potentially same issue could happen again. Shooting was. Way more could be supported on sites. This photograph shows 14 vehicles in the few that you. Anecdotally it was sometimes more and back snow cost traffic safety issues. Block the bike lanes, sometimes blocked sidewalk. Kind of mess and they voluntarily close to the city had some requirements for a while. Regarding. Management having off off-duty
police officers to help manage certain hours. But ultimately the clothes that's part of the business. 12 studies elsewhere have shown a need for between 5.26 vehicle stacking spaces and those are reference to me and mo modus among the package was with your kids numbers for coffee and fast food. Some other problems just listing them here on safe pedestrian access, having to walk across. Drive aisles where people are distracted. Montesinos streets. Step to stop us from friendly. If you look at a couple of his example, certain the picture, that is a good examples. Hard to to the building. That's true for customers or employees noise litter behavior on these places. The health impacts. And pollution have all been sighted with pollution. I
would caution that the direct impact of pollution, relatively small. It's very visible. Small people idling while they're in line to greater impacts and direct we're encouraging more participar ownership to have more that. So the district study came through recently and has one change that impacts the drive-thru study. And that is. It fixed safe pedestrian access to the bill. So there it is. a recommendation from the planning commission that pedestrians be able to access, drive through buildings with Drive-thrus without crossing a drive-thru or any other drive That actually will now apply. Citywide thanks to the to study into districts but also districts and all buildings except for industrial buildings and those
that are 35 setback from the street. So we'd already apply. So we will need a version to with this. And then the question is, what else should change with the version? There is before we keep going so hearing you say that in the previous slide, the problems, the drive-thrus, the first one unsafe testing access. Has been changed by the 2 district study which now requires a pedestrian access and all zoning districts and therefore, we would need a version. 2 of the drive-thru study too. Get rid of standard since we don't need it there as well. Is the plan on FEBRUARY 18th? No matter what for that version, 2 to be authored and introduced. Yes, that's currently okay. Yes. Also council members MAY wish to consider introducing a version 2 that makes other changes her
these polls. And if we do nothing, that will be part would be the minimum of it yet. Ok, thank you the minute. So I'll go into more depth. And each of these 4 questions in the following slides. But should drive throughs be prohibited from residents for restaurants and coffee shops and only allowed for pharmacies and banks. Should end or walk-up service be required during all hours of the drive-thru is open. So those on foot can access the same services those in the vehicle. Which zoning districts should alow drive-thrus and if drive-thru's or expanded to the t 3 and t 4district since desirable to require them to be in a 4 story. Plus, building. It's opposed to just see the stories often. So the first question here. Should a rstaurant should we restaurant coffee drive-thrus going forward course existing
ones could continue potentially even be expanded under conditional use permit process. Should we ban ones? And I put up this example in Starbucks on West 7th because it has been a cited by Highland Park District Council in others. It's really good example. Like if we are going to do drive-thrus for food and beverages and city, this is us. As good as you can get. Buildings appeared street very accessible by classrooms. Plenty of room for chewing on the side. So there won't be any back up into the streets. He would have to have 30 some vehicles, which is. Very uncommon for that to become a problem. This is about as good of a space Yet the planning Commission, it's recommending. Do not allow these going
forward with logic stated that we have enough of these, we have locations for these. We do. To bend over backwards to allow the citizens that are generally in conflict with their polls. So that's one policy question. For Another one is should we require indoor walk-up service? This could be accomplished. For a bank to atm that successful during all hours or at least powers that be. Drive-thru is open. Should this talk of all and Minnesota, but not Saint Paul. Has awindow where those people are eating where people can walk up just like try to customers to waste to serve from the outside. This was an idea that actually came initially from Union Park District Council and the Planning Commission like the side, recommend it to the City
Council. We've some testimony about this particular some concerns about safety of workers at 54 wired into the restaurants are same hours drive-thrus. Concerned about late Night srvice for the employees and their safety. MR. Germany, do we have any sense right now as to how many drive-thrus currently? Because this would this change would apply to existing right. Do we have a sense as to how many currently? Have longer drive-thru service than they have walk-up service. Most. I haven't done a count, but it's pretty common. For late night hours. restaurants will offer often closer interiors that now like 9 or 10 o'clock the drive-thru will be open little longer. So today, the zoning districts that allow. Drive-thru's or appear on
the screen. But planning Commission is recommending is to. Prohibit them going forward and be 45, especially downtown. And the smallest this was s and p one. But to add the most conditional t 3 and t 4. And So there's a question of allow Related. Question of if it's allowed to 3 to 4 planning Commission is recommending. That it only be through in combination with the 4 story. Plus building such as this building for a speech soccer stadium. There is actually a drive-thru mayor. There had been a single story bank. This is so into 3. There was a nonconforming use permits approved by the planning commission that allowed this to happen. Conjunction with apartment building. The idea there is. If we have this requirement would still be getting the form and the density that we want to see
him to 3 and t 4 districts. As long as the guy who's degraded into the building. And this particular one is another woman just cited as live through. That works very well. And the boys, many of the problems other drive-thru's, there's motion. Again, before Policy questions. I will say there are other changes in the code that are less controversial. Calling too much attention to. Including that the cheering like the and I'm hearing like the Great Earth and it is currently we only require for 6 vehicles. Stacking for vehicles. I stacking for most uses and the code today. And that would expand to a greater amount and make that easier to do on more sites. Most uses have to be a single way drive-thru to avoid having a lot of asphalt. That would be
changed to allow multiple waves. So that I guess the it's a recognition It's a lesser problem, have more pavement. Then the problem of cars backing up the street. That seems to be the bigger problem that we show. With 4 policy questions for me. I'd be glad take any questions or comments. Thanks, MISTER CHAIRMAN just few questions. But one my colleagues first to see questions. Have. Thank you, council PRESIDENT. I am wondering, Bill and first off, I want to say thank you for your presentation. This is a really great refreshers. Well for me since. It does make a lot. It's been a while since we had the in front of us. Wondering if you can again about just bit more about the Planning Commission's decision. I know you said earlier the belief
that we enough of the drive to use can you clarify if they're saying no to new drive-thru reserve? But I think that's what I heard, right? They don't want any new drive-thrus in the city of Saint Paul. No new. Restaurant or coffee Okay. Okay. Gotcha. No problem with new pharmacy or okay, that's really helpful to know and they can use it. Can you just share? But about in terms of a drive to sir, we seen that it's more like large chain store restaurants that are having them work. And know I know some small businesses that have drive-thrus to us to have any data on that. Council. PRESIDENT Council member. It is certainly more common with chains to have drive-thrus. But it's not. It's listen. We do have a fw fast food restaurants on the road or maybe 3 or 4 that have drive-thru site are not.
Chains that are not national chains. 7 Street Pharmacy I took all of our pharmacies. Will try to use that Walgreens or cvs in the local pharmacies. Do okay. And then just a question Apollo it. Any srt of financial support the city would be providing if we were to. That's a approve any sort of changes where it's where. Well, I heard your earlier say that changes that we to infer that like they're going to impact existing drive-thrus to. So let's small business, for example, they have to maybe reconfigure the pathway for the drive-thru or just do some sort like, you know, capital make some sort capital improvement to their business. Is there any sort of funding that we're that we're planning on sharing with them like, hey, you should tap into this man to your head start. But I'm not really sure to. I'd love to hear your thoughts
just because I think that that would probably be a question that we get a as we. Consider more thies. Council PRESIDENT Council member u n I'm glad you raises questions. Common issue of confusion and dismay. Just to clarify. Existing businesses would be legal nonconforming to make any changes to And so they continue in their current situations. So if if do not meet the standards that are being posed or or that standard that got approved by the Tea study. They can continue operating. It's applies to new and expanded right to so if they wanted to come and and expand their operation or if it were new drive-thru altogether the regulations would apply. ok, thank you. That's helpful to know. Those are the questions I have. And think
answer is coming it was good because PRESIDENT, thank you for this presentation and some very helpful as he's doing comprehensive 50 state survey on the spot. Just curious what we're seeing that in terms of other cities that moving on the surface, my policy changes think Minneapolis took similar action has what's proposed here. And if has been tracking any and other cities before on this. And if there are any lessons that you all think we should be learning from those examples. Thank you. Council PRESIDENT Council member Coleman a good question. I did check in with Prohibited New Drive-thrus several years ago. i want to say 2019 or somewhere in ballpark. They have. Coli not heard. A lot of complaints. People seem to have moved on or perhaps they're complaining elsewhere.
But not very loudly and about Business continues in Minneapolis. So that's what we've heard anecdotal way. Just a quick follow-up question. Did you hear any positive impacts and do they feel like this has contributed to more room from friendly business development? No, no feedback. Either way that I heard about change. It's just something that's think thank you. Council present. I has similar question, but I want to really frame it more so around, if you to speak to like how this is like activating retail business, particularly no and the midway and stairs and also downtown, you know, we we're really looking for the city to be a champion with activity
our retail preserving our businesses. But Alice in Wonderland, it's really more self attracting being a welcoming place for businesses. Do you see like with this particularly with having a a ban on drive-thru is particularly around restaurants and and you mentioned mentioned pharmacies but restaurants and coffee shops. Know how this have. Bolstered up, you know, businesses, are we going to start seeing some negative impacts? Particularly around the investment community that, you know, really no. And this place don't want to see restrictions out understanding that this is more so environmental policy, bolstering a pedestrian friendly. But how do you see this really taking effect and
some of those areas that are baking right. And we need to track businesses. Good question Council. Thank you, COUNCILMAN Very mean, this is somewhat speculative, but we would hope that it sends a signal about whatever you pass. It sends a signal about the type of development you want, which would attract developers who want to do that sort development. Is a a there are voices we have heard through the public hearing. You say that we can accommodate risers and get that sort of development at the design standards are good. There are others who have said you can't really do that anytime you have a drive to you. Courage in so many cars to be in a specific area that makes up on pedestrian friendly that cannot support the type of development that was. So we've heard both both voices. You the the proof will be in the future for You know,
Minneapolis has had experience where. No based on a study about how it's helped their hurts businesses there. But it sends a signal and then they get the type of development that they asked for. It's hard, hard to say can only speculate whether it's cause less development tonight. Otherwise would hope that answers question. Coming. Thank Despite been answered already. So apologies if I missed it. But what is rate of applications to build nw buildings with Drive-thrus in the city? Currently? Couple of year would be masked. Thanks, everyone for the great questions. Couple others. What one just make sure MR. Germany. And said there are some other changes he didn't talk about that are in the proposed language that are less controversial. But but one, for example, just want
make sure of this. The car bucks situation that you referred to earlier with cars lining up on the street because they ran out of room. That is one of the changes that is already in proposed in the language, correct? That is correct. Yes. Just try to keep us connected to, you original problems that are trying to be Salter. Another question I have relates to the changes to the zoning districts because it occurs to me that, you know, I have some questions about sort of which you drive through as we would allow are not allowed that the reasons for that those are. But one thing that doesn't very important to me to your point is to figure out where we want drivers to be in the city and that relates to which Tony districts they're allowed in. I'm curious, it
makes sense to me to not allow downtown because we're trying to make a very dense urban pedestrian-friendly environment downtown the decision to mean make them. Conditional into 3 nt forward before they weren't allowed at And hair that requiring them to be in a really tall building. Can you say more about what the discussion was or the rationale is for that choice? Sure. Yes. That was it was helpful that we had a very good eample across across from the soccer stadium that people think is working well and potentially. a user like that. Financially support developments on a large site such as you know, in the Midway Southside University Avenue or the Heights or some locations like that where they don't quite have enough
funding for the residential component. But a drive-thru user could make that development happens. That sort of situations with the planning commission had in mind when they recommended this. Okay. So allowing drivers to be in t 3 and t 4 Richmond. Some of our highest density districts. But the reason was to allow higher density development to move forward that might need that revenue and couldn't do it without it. And that's why there's also that requirement that then the drive-thru only be in one of those tall buildings. You got this. Interesting. Okay. And then last we you talked about design standards and I care a member of this is in the language of this is when things didn't refer to or not. But problem of not having a pedestrian oriented streetscape which is different from unsafe pedestrian access that already handled by that
heat setting study. But I feel this concern about past year into streets get very much and you walk down the street. You see tons of driveways. You see tons of cars going in the front. That is not. Feels very different from when the drive-thru is in the back. Get the, you know, an ounce of system is happening in the back. It screened by the vegetation, the picture, the Starbucks that you showed, for example, compared to the Starbucks on selling so are those designed some of those design standards in the existing language? Yes, are calling attention. I council PRESIDENT, that's at least partially addressed and that design standard. So some extent anytime you have a dry you will have more need to accommodate vehicles. So that. To that degree can't quite tall. We saw for that. But the designs there's require the. Drive-thru to be to the side and rear of the
building be. Separated from residential by a certain distance at 300 feet. It's in combination with the pedestrian safety requirements, which essentially require the building to be up near the street. Combination of all those would improve the streetscape compared to what city code currently. And those are new proposed changes. Yes, You got particularly controversial through the planning commission level. But yes, us. Think you so much. On the lines around the design standards, I'm just curious, as thinking about just how retail is evolving, particularly moving towards these at pace pickup. Second thing it targeted and even Starbucks where order you pick up. You're not going to a drive-thru, but you're at least going into a parking spot where a employee will bring out some of the the service is. So I'm just
wondering is that is our pick up at these pickup. I guess laws are standards. Is that codify done this existing policy or is that something treated separately? Great question. Council PRESIDENT Council member Mary. This was a matter of a lot of discussion. The planning commission level. It is regulated in our code. Pickup. Spaces within the parking lot of I just like any other parking proprietor wants to designate certain spaces for for pick-up. They can do so. They could even work with the city potentially for on-street spaces to be dedicated to the business for this purpose. That was actually part of the planning commission's rationale for prohibiting. New drive-thru. These 4 restaurants coffee shops that there is this other option where they can offer that the
takeout service. Other - questions. Thank you. Council PRESIDENT. Well, I just want to share my general thoughts about this. I know that there's going to be language in front of us and also a public hearing. But I do want to initially share the tensions that I have around specifically the in the know new tried to us 4 restaurants are like coffee, something like, you know, anything related to a beverage isn't. I'm just thinking about like clear examples of businesses my word that maybe in the future might even consider having drive-thrus. Thinking about the long MARCH on Maryland and prosperity that has had a Walgreens tell us they can for quite some time. And then now has turned into a grocery store and the business owners want to open up a dolly and it's walking. So they have
a do already. There. And they MAY be, you know, probably maybe in even want to have a drive-thru available for the Delhi so that their customers can can, you know, get food and beverages. I I know that that, you know, for me personally, I'm very supportive of. The environmental benefits that could be all that, that there would be. When we ban ban more drive new drive-thru was from from happening. I'm also really holding like I would say, like centering those social benefits that I've seen drive-thrus bring into my life as a mom who has 3 kids 3 and under thank. Thank goodness we have checked so that I don't have to bring my 3 kids and 2, you know, wherever we're going to grab a snack or a beverage. And I'm also really centering. Committee members who have disabilities and have to utilize drive to this how much of a convenience that brings to them. And I've heard about
that directly. Also. There's there's another point that I wanted to make, but I I just wanted to in the overall anyway, if its gonna if it comes to sure enough, it. But I haven for the benefit of the drive-thru during the pandemic, like that was huge. And I I don't ever want us to be in a moment like that again, where, you know, like everyone we have We're going live into a pandemic. But I also am not certain about what the future holds for that. And so we also have to figure out how we can be ready for for these types of crises that we've lived through before. And I just know how beneficial drive to swear to many people, not just center city, but really all across the country during that. Really. Horrific crisis that we lived through and Those are the things that I'm thinking of, you know, and I do want to name. I think it going to be very hard for me
to get behind that. The nudge drive-thrus for restaurants, coffee's anything related to beverage shoes. But I'm very invested in figuring out what it could look like for us to him. Accomplish resolving the the many problems that we see the drive-thrus. There's no list here. They not protest oriented streets. Key noise, litter behavior, health. I the last thing noticed that the Maryland that on that Maryland, srry that the McDonald's that exists on Maryland and Clarence might now be used have dine-in service and the now have you noticed the drive-thru option and that they have had to make that huge shift because of many different social factors that are beyond their control.
Like, for example, not too far from there. There have been many encampments that that. That we've seen, especially during the pandemic, the also like it's, you know, you all have heard me talk about nearly clearance a lot like it's an area where we have seen. Well, now the hot spot for crime and violence and MAY ward and one of the biggest priorities I have on my plate when it comes to how we can create can be safety in my ward at that intersection. When I spoke to the oner of that McDonald's, the shared about how their staff members had to call the pramedics like almost every day because of customers who were coming in or even just people who came in when they had the dine-in service experiencing
overdose. And that's a really traumatic for many of these employees who are young and having to figure out how do I respond to a crisis like this and having to live through that a lot during at place of employment. And so there's just a lot that that I'm thinking of us. I am. As I consider this and really holding close to heart, as I think about the impact we see from fom committee members from entrepreneurs directly and they were too. So that's right. Matt and I but love to hear everyone stops you know, throughout the next few weeks as we continue talking about this. Thanks so much, Suzanne. MR. Invite you to sit next to MR. Greenfield, if you'd like, since the presentation portion is over, that we don't just stand there. While we discuss amongst yourselves. But you're still there. If we have questions striking a balance.
Comments was thank you, council PRESIDENT. I just want to reflect a lot of what I'm hearing. I think You know, there isn't like a simple one. Size fits all for this policy. You know, the challenges that Consular Iain just mentioned that she's experienced and in her ward, you know, are are unique to her to her ward. And each of our words or kind of having our own challenges with this. In one of the photos of the Starbucks drive-thru was and Ward 3 and that particular situation actually really helped boost development in that area. My word so there's just a, you know, a lot to think about as we're thinking about this policy that, you know, will well play differently in different parts of the city. Just as common.
We want to appreciate both consumer just a council meetings, comments and a lot of what has already been said it. And, you know, I'll just have that I share the need to get this right. And and grappling with some of the tensions that others identified. I think that building. Very serious mistake is made in the 20th century was building 4 cars and it is something that we deal with all the time on this council is how do we rectify the problem of having built a city for cars when we said their conversations with residents who are dealing with the problems credit by traffic speed into neighborhoods through, you know, the car, situation through whole host of problems that have been created because we did not build for people to walk into
political take public transit. And I think it is incumbent upon us to not repeat the mistakes of the past when it comes thinking about how we build our city forward. So much of what comes with being some of those concerns are ones that I share thinking about where the people who are living in our city now and what do they need and how do we support them? One of related issue that's come up in this has been discussed in Ward 4 is around late night food options and how they are very, very few late nght with options for people who are working, you know, hours beyond traditional 9 to 5 people who need to who could offer shift at 11, 12, one in the morning. But are there for adoptions are often going to be drive-thru only for some. The safety can reasons. And just practicality reasons you're not going to get a lot
of fun traffic. Unlike Taco Bell on selling its Hamlin, maybe they're few college students who walk over that one in the morning. I don't think that they hve a huge need to keep the establishment open in its entirety. That is a lot of people depend on. So at I don't have the answer yet. I don't know if any of us will. They have routines, but I do think that this is something where we're gonna have to be very intentional and thoughtful and think about how do we get? How do we incentivize the type of development that we want to see has been discussed today while also making sure that we're being honest about some of the equity and other considerations at play here. Woman. And I would agree I I really appreciate the fact that we have policy committee can have these conversations because honestly, it's it's so
helpful to hear what colleagues think. And talk about these things openly. I have some of the scene. concerns. I think it is so helpful that MR. Germany gave us these initial problems again, because I feel like sometimes we get so far was the problem we forget we're trying solve in the first place and I'm really glad we did for the 2 district zoning study to be done because the biggest problem to me was the first one. I'm safe. Pedestrian access. Safety to me is that the critical concern, especially if your point as long as a mom with, you know, watch my kids bike in front of the past a driveway and had some near misses. And those are scary situation. So this is a big deal. And then the not year into streetscape was sort of my second concern as well. And that that is in the design standards that are being
proposed are not controversial. I think, right, get more. But after that, I think there is this need to balance both the convenience. The needs for all kinds of residents to access the services and then also the economic impact I think actually MR. To me when you first presented, we were talking about the environmental benefit and I think you said there actually isn't a lot of impact on vehicle. Miles traveled from reducing drive-thrus because folks off a lot of driving farther to another drive-thru where they can access the drive-thru and or we just you don't see a huge impact there. And I'm thinking about our small businesses. I'm thinking about all the pressures that they're under right now and sort of to the point you're making this comment about indoor walk-up It strikes me that if we were to require that you have walk-up service at all the times you drive, it
was open I think it's highly unlikely that people would be hired to work at those times because no one is going walk into rstaurant at one of the morning. I think it's more likely that the drive-thru hours would be shortened 2 align with the in store hours and then that would take away those late night options. Even in a drive to that. We now see so. Those are some things that I'm thinking about as well. I will say I'm hoping that we have a plan by the 18th because as you probably noticed from the timeline, this is coming to us now. Almost 2 years since this started. So I do want to get to a decision, but I am hopeful that this conversation helps folks think about where you're at on this issue. And if anyone in particular feels
passionately about introducing amendments let us know that you're planning to do that. So folks know who's on first. Other conversation. Not seeing any thanks so much against MR. Germany. Thanks, MR. Greenfield, any final thoughts, MR. Germany. Closing comments. Instead left work. Thanks so much. We are