meeting of the Saint Paul policy in organizational committee to order. Good morning, everyone. Thank you all so much for taking time to be here. We have a doing something a little bit different today, which is that we are exploring a policy that is not yet on the books. It's not drafted, but having really an open conversation about an issue that has come to our attention and wanting to learn more about it from a variety of different folks who have different perspectives on it and then discuss as a body, whether or not this is something that we might want to take up legislation Some of our fellow jurisdictions have done so grateful to my colleagues for openness to this conversation. Grateful to the folks the million coming present tested huge thank you to my legislative aide, Macon jacket who has made this
entire thing happened and have Everything front of you was produced by half. So except the presentations that were produced by the So with that, we're going kick off with a presentation from. And I think the goal here was to keep presentations to no more than 15 minutes. So that we would then have ample opportunity for questions and answers discussion afterwards. Of course, to my colleagues always feel free to jump questions. Hashtag we don't wait for the question side with that. Welcome to Mike Carter, Mike Mike, and for not a director with the Minnesota Department of Commerce. Thank you for having I call for what direction from Minnesota Commerce. It oversees regulation of Minnesota statute Sheppard that he be in part with money transition, including virtual currency kiosks and virtual currency business activity. we can get them makes turned up just a bit and be
helpful. The speaker's And you should be able stand up straight. They should be able to handle. I've always heard you can use been to the was. Right. So the current state regulations that you see as mention and so set your check need be acquires licensure for social currency, business activity is criminal penalties for knowingly operating license. They hve filed Bank Secrecy Act according Court Inc record keeping requirements that include maintenance of 3 years of transaction data. Thank you. Reconciliation statements and more includes key answer to find essentially is a mechanical facilitating the exchange of virtual currency for money in credit or other virtual currencies, their specific disclosure requirements must be provided to consumers, including to
risk disclosures relevant terms and conditions, transaction information of the disclosures by user. And there are transactional limits for new customers. And customers considered the consumer transacting at a kiosk in Minnesota who has been a customer of the virtual currency kjos operator for less than 72 hours. Tose limits are 2000. Dollars a day for a new customer. So those 72 hours is on the customer should be able to transact occurance. There. Are we from eligibility for new customers? If the transactions fraudulently induced that they report to law enforcement, other government agency and the report to the kiosk operator requesting a refund and the nature, the fraudulent inducement within 14 days,
Alaskans action. So it's little bit about statewide Jst point out that the right side is only included those types of scams discussing what our citizens are seeing from te from the narrative that the fraudsters or inducing them to end up with a sending money to them that is only since the law took effect on the show, just even since the law took effect. Still a lot of utility did scammers and fraudsters getting people to these kiosks and sending money that they otherwise wouldn't send But generally over always received She's pretty law and which is at least 2024 for the curious 34 direct consumer complaints. 51 law enforcement reports report, a loss o
$718,060 in refunds of $82 and as you can kind of see here, most prevalent. Scare and the narrative that these foster dues people to get to the chaos and send the money to them as law enforcement person issue. Constant are the are. That's right. Yeah. I mean, cut you off So just confirming that this is and referring all my colleagues to the memo that was provided for background and we kind of jumped right in. But that this provides really helpful background information to MR. Carter's talking about so. Statistics you're presenting here, you said are all since the state regulation took effect like this. Is for this to happen. Okay. Thanks. For what we've been able to track in Saint Paul, you know, just located, you know, in your area in your city. And this includes all of the all the transactional data that we've just been reported to
us. Only 2 reported since the law went into effect. And keep in mind, these are just saying Paul kiosk locations, they're not necessarily simple. Residents. Who were at, you know, at the kiosks. Sometimes scammers will send the victims. So other jurisdictions. And it's not necessarily a simple resident but it's where activities occurred in Saint Paul. There's been overall and wonder consumer complaint it law enforcement law enforcement ports. 55,005 $21 with that in essence $0 and put it We have as a department taken several ministry actions these 3 entities up your claim, theme of coin Holdings doing business as coin flip. Are Jessica operators? Of course, got a Web say you're
welcome to Google, Minnesota, partner of Cards will be post all of our public actions. You you'll see as we keep moving along, getting compliance with the law. More actions will still pop up. So what is working law enforcement more will engage with comments. We had a big push. To get a centralized reporting structure in place that we don't know. Everything is there's a mass, a dark figure out there of fraud that's occurring that stopping reported to us. Our law enforcement partners, partners have been absolutely critical in getting. What did you saw him in the majority of reports we're seeing is from on Port Fourchon, working with the local citizens. And we're getting company's
license. It comes with bonds, examination authority reporting requirements, just additional bonus Operators are in our state. More consumers are within the law to the publication's by communications department fabulous. Publishing fraud Media reporting at large and other open age. Coordination that we have as the department's division. What's not working and They limit refunds. And, you know, the daily transaction limits for new customers existing customers will different as well. The $2000, the limit doesn't apply to customers. Dickinson, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars with no protections. One of the most prevalent scams are from the from the fraudsters is they'll push a
qr code to a victims fund. victim shows up to a couple, Kentucky just. The scans a qr code. That was victim in a someone else. Almost always an existing customer somehow connected to fraudsters that allows him avoid the recent allegations because they didn't think they were doing Christmas. It would be in business with someone else. And there's tight deadlines and requirements. Refunds eligible victims MAY not even come forward days case for the poor that the applicant at the same heard for 50 chicken for for me to such as Paris standards, scammers have what family know. What happened. And not to mention the distrust. You get. When you thought you're dealing with law enforcement unit that a crypto-currency just now law enforcement post
your partner to assist. There's just a certain level skepticism. Think it's baked in equation. The other thing despite how good we're doing at the law enforcement level communications department level complaints. There's still reports coming with victims. Sam prevention is almost a and information things somewhere its financial literacy. It's all these things. And we can't be everywhere at once. So I suspect you that just for you guys. So much. We did with masks like I think, because so interested what you're saying. So thank you so much. Think that's the council member council PRESIDENT. I just really appreciate overview on
this topic. This is something that concerned, especially as someone who remember the of like cryptocurrency and and quite a few like family and friends who like I had to ensure life getting scammed. I'm kind of care is particularly around. When you say that a majority of the scams are people who are impersonating as law enforcement. Are. They impersonating our our guests posing as like enforcing a crime. Like what is the conversation between the impersonate a law enforcement scammer and that person? the victim get a phone call. The scammer law enforcement, the warrant out for your arrest or your son family member does? You know we can resolve this real quick? If you just go to a
kiosk are now accepting immediate payment kiosks to really view the, you know, the arrest warrant. Obligations. Do what's called an eye scooping caller id spoofing on person the local courthouse of the local police officers, phone numbers. And so it shows up like, wow, this must be them. Your preference. Yeah, tank you. Council PRESIDENT Maker and I know there was a somewhat visible like news story several weeks back. That sticks in my brain about, you know that to your point, Councilmember Bowie. The woman who was featured in the story, it's a mix of embarrassment or, you know, feeling anxious about it. But the only reason she's willing to tell their story after losing like all this money is because she wanted people to aware that it does happen and help raise awareness and part of it is the folks doing this are so they're so expert of being
able to sort of get you into the mindset where you're feeling urgent and feeling scared and feeling anxious and its. In that instance, I someone impersonating maybe even fbi can't member and they were. They're basically saying you are under attack. So to prevent your funds, we have to move them. And then you feel cattlemen lose all my might. You know, so they're very good pulling at those emotional. Things. And it's a numbers game to them of just if they tried 10 different times only works once it's worthwhile for them, they still come away with the fun. So I I appreciate issue being raised. And even to your point naming that the statistics we see our what's being reported. What you're it's something like this will always be dramatically underreported the same so many crimes because
France to someone of any confident something will happen or they so embarrassed that it's not worth Is the money already gotten some what it might even reporting? And request, you know, so there's so many reasons people have not to report. So I think it's both very helpful to see the statistics and to know that we're always going to be underrepresented the sme way with so many things. Trying to address local level. That's for sure. And the other questions that really. Thank you. Well, brought up a lot of conversations I'm Kerri surround what is the relationship. But the attorney general's office and in initiative tracking seems I guess I'm trying to understand more so like what it's like, the institution that you're the director And Mike, I understand like there's like a
gathering data and Councilmember provides, he mentioned is always going to be under represent. But on them for Smith's side, can you explain a little bit of how like the attorney general's role? Plays part. Any. I mean, the attorney general has Rogers 60 trip practice the state. We have inner eye damage before. But departmental between general in ourselves conversations that occur. What they're doing on their end in terms of for some work. I do. any other questions as we will move on. And, you know, we'll have time for questions the end as well. Thank you so much for You MAY notice a little bit confusing on the agenda to but we also have a presentation that she wished in number one from Forest Lake. So that's why there's so many attachment number one. So
I'd now like to welcome could all stand leave from the first like police departments to get the next presentation. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. That held us for not knowing your title. I called one chief. I'm not sure that's okay. That. And the thing that chief. I that active for the police department. So just kind of a brief background on me. I've been in the detective position for about a year and a half. And then initially started working cryptocurrency case is probably what, 4 months in to being a detective in the. For some the kind of me that a gateway was sergeant. Doesn't ski from the Brooklyn Park Police Department. He's kind of metro wide crypto world.
So. He's someone reach to. If you have more questions beyond She says get they can see That is for us next in seeing myself on the camera bit. So just a brief overview. I pulled some numbers which MR. Carter win over as well. As you can see here. It gives just overview of how cryptocurrency is continuing to. Become more and more real problem with fraudulent crimes. These are statistics involving the cryptocurrency kiosks. First lady had reported last between 2023 2024. Of nearly $300,000. So it's either directly at kiosks, inner city or someone that is a resident of our city and in got talked into going to a kiosk outside our jurisdiction, which we would help with with either of those cranes. Here is some just a brief overview of some crimes
and how the kind of operate these criminals they have narratives. They as they have scripted narratives that they work out. So typically is a large combination of people that scamming victims and if a narrative doesn't work, they change that narrative. But it is a pretty tight script that they got. That's why you when you When you hear somebody talk about these cimes, they're all really very, very similar because they have. Something to go off of and, you know, do this do that. It's like a flow chart that do operate off of. person a person law enforcement officer threats. The ones that I come across the most. Our threats of missing jury duty. I had one recently where someone had
just inducted a cold call saying they're from Yeah, any county sheriff's office and that's the one that I gave you guys. And she was said that just missed on a murder case for doing You know, once he or felony warrants and you have a warrant for your arrest, it kind of gets you in a place that you're not really thinking straight. So investment scams. Typically lead to fake websites. So you're putting money into the cryptocurrency atm. They're giving you a website you go to that website and it looks like you're making, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars on this investment and there's no money there. Romance scams. You gt built into a relationship and they
start asking for money and then tech support. You get a window pop up that says there's something wrong with your computer. One other thing to think of to is typically about 70% of white collar crime is not reported. Do too one reason another. You know, you're embarrassed of the crime. You feel helpless. You don't feel like anything can be done getting that money back. So you just want to take the time to report it or there's been some folks that I want to cross that. They need realize that they've been a victim of a crime. So, you know, there's there's been people have had to sit down with and say, no, this was like a cryptocurrency event in you'll you know, we're part of a scam and they would just, you know, took them very, very long time to realize after setting it all in front of them that, okay? Yeah, I did get scammed so so if you think 70%, these numbers are going
to be drastically higher. Reporting. The fbi through Internet. Crime Complaint Center is also under reported because if a person just says that they're in, they're involved in investment scam. They might not understand that investment scam. Also included cryptocurrency. So you have to have. The reporting victim really aware of what kind of crime they were involved in. So some of Internet complaints through the fbi, those numbers could be skewed a little bit, too. So getting a hard number and some of these crimes and how they're reported is extremely difficult. So the victims. Elderly and vulnerable population retire is that have been established a motive wells. So. One say get somebody that is going to get wrapped up into the scam and they figure out, ok, this person is Aires versus a 4, k this They have a vanguard account that I can access.
They will try and get all of that money. So as long as they can keep stringing that person long, they will continue to call them, talk to them, send them stuff until they are completely wiped out. So we talk money. Can't forget the fact that even if a victim is stop turn the scam. And does not suffer any monetary The mental and emotional impact is very severe. So, you know, talking with these victims like the one that I had given to you guys, her affidavit that which I'll see you as a r p. Presentations she's going after is a shunt to kind of hand these out as necessary you know, it was kind of the emotional traumatic event that continues to. Play a part in that experience as well. So
just it's not only the money, but as you if you read it, you can see that she just didn't have that money to and went through extreme links. You provide that to the scammer. But it's just the continued impact of the event itself. MR. Carter brought up some of the person nation is is of law enforcement and that really erodes the trust of folks calling into law enforcement. Example would be. I had communication with the victim of the. Report that I have given you guys. She would never answer the phone when I call just call me So I'd have to say. Hey, this is detecting. All said I'm calling on this report. You know give enough information on the voice mail that you feel. Trusted to coming back and talk so. That's also major issue. Investigation of these crimes. They take a concert on time to investigate It's not unlike any other high-level
financial crime. The difference between a normal fiat currency, financial crime in vrtual currency train is just the medium on which it occurs. So this is all. New where it's not quite as new as it was, you know, several years back. One agencies are a little bit behind on catching up and we are catching But it's it's understanding how to follow that money once it gets put into cryptocurrency atm or there's some type address along with that. It gets that money gets put into just directly. So it's it's that difficulty is where trying to catch up. And then there's facing software that allows us to follow that money which is very expensive. So if you invest. If you're standing investing where you have an address lot that you're
putting money into through the atm. Any of us here and look that up and follow it. It's all public. So it's not like it's not like a bank account like at Wells Fargo where the bank has access and the persons at khon has access and then law enforcement can get access through a warrant. Blockchain is a public. So if you spend a little bit of time and look at it, you can find a wallet address and you can follow exactly where the money goes. It's anonymous, extremely anonymous. Up to a certain point. Then when it gets transition into trying to take the money out as U.S. Dollars or dollars. That's when it becomes. If the company's cooperate. Louisville, MR. Carter had
touched on this. And so that 53 be 75 is virtual currency. He asks statute. And it was written in a way that is really to protect the consumer, which is great. But, you know, like everything was put under a microscope by these companies and then they found a loophole of the new customer definition. So when I first investigated these atm people were walking up to the kiosk and putting your information. So when you create a new account and use atm's, you hold up your driver's license. They take a photo. You're adding all this information. The problem with that for them is that people are already confused. So people walk up to machines there already like, I have no idea what Im doing. So getting walking them through that process takes a lot of time. So the quicker they can get the money into the machine, the faster they get that money faster, they can
send it somewhere ese. So what they started doing then is just the q codes. So you get a qr code. It's established a county lockup. You scan it. Brings up the wallet address. You can start stuffing money into the temps. So it kind of completely notifies the new customer protection. I had a case that a gentleman came in and he. Reported within 12 hours of being victimized. So it's been almost $20,000 into a machine because you got that you were killed and some like this is great because he's a new customer. He's never been from these atm's and for a long time, there was a there was an ok, working relationship with these companies. And he going so I thought, okay, will present this to them and this person should get an entire
refund back before they were only get transactional refunds. So they have a markup on these atm's where you go and purchase bitcoin. And it's the big point value. But then the atm's markup or the company's markup is upwards of almost 30%. So. They were through a lot of communication. The e-mails refunding that transactional fee which on $20,000 could be, you know, several $1000 back, which is better than nothing. So I had a victim here that had reported within that timeframe, met all the criteria of the statute and the company refused to give him a full refund, a refund in the transactional fee. So I think he. Received almost around $5,000 back and then I kept communicating requesting know this is. What our statute says from Minnesota. You're required. Ad then actually
got a call from one of their legal agents that said your legal team discussed this in because this is a verified wallet. We are not going to refund your victim any part in the transactional fee. And so I even sent him this person's all of their information saying you will not be able to find this person your system. So to me that fits a new customer and they just won't buy it. Convention education, 2 presentations, a r p has been tremendous resource and partner for the first like police department. We go out and we do community presentations with them. And across the, yu know, entire cryptocurrency in fraud. World. Aarp is constantly being brought u in other states and and within our state. They're just an amazing, amazing resource. So if someone I don't know, hall
how they are with Saint Paul, but they'll come out and they people that will do presentations different areas for for folks in the community. Could be self regulation to restrict your business model by the key s companies. Also think he s companies are pushed 2 change the way they operate. You know, that would prevent some of this Friday as well. So regulation through state and local ordinances is the other one. And questions. It's thanks so much. Any questions. It's just I just have thank you. Detective. Think Council PRESIDENT. I just have a comment. I was reading in the memo. We got that the city Forest Lake passed ordinance that requires basically if registration with the businesses where these kiosks are in a side that just recently. I guess my combo - just to be interesting to find out like, whoa, the impact that that has enough that helps, you know, solve this issue with what you've been
seeing in AUGUST to anticipate that that will help What that's eye. believe that it well, you know, so. What our city attorney did is ordinance. That is more of full-service zoning regulation, so not regulating the key kiosk companies themselves, you know, after discussing it. Felt like be problematic. And in litigation. That would be unwanted. So we decided to enact a more of a zoning ordinance where you are a business in Forest Lake. You are on this land that we have and ability to. Regulate different zoning ordinance is
no different. Like if you need a tough act license to sell tobacco or alcohol license or something along those lines. So in order to have a crypto chaos in your business, you have to apply for registration, which is part of the ordinance and anybody that does not apply and have that registration granted would be in violation of the ordinance and subject to. You know, either criminal count penalty, more more than likely a a civil penalty some type finance. That answer your question. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you. I just was 1, 1, of your size. Your tech know who the victims are. You mentioned other Leanne vulnerable populations and you said retirees with established wealth. And I was just wondering by staff well. To me that tends to be wealthy individuals or could be anybody. But the established knowing that they have a
specific type of account and that they can get access to it. I guess I'm just wondering, are we talking about, you know, only wealthy retirees are being targeted o is across the board. Well, it's one those ends up happening is through. To answer your question is I'm not sure if they know or they don't know. But what ends up happening is they start a scam. And then once they get that person wrapped up to get some time get access to the person's computer and they'll let them know that, ok, your bank accounts are probably compromised. So, you let's log in your bank account and they'll look at the bank holding. There might be some transactions to like a vanguard account and they see that you have a retirement
account that could be subject to being compromised as well. So look at that. So I think I think there's a it's kind of a stepping stone process for I'm not sure if there specifically targeting. People that are, you know, to be considered wealthy. You know, they get to that process of finding ok, this person does have substantial wealth and they just Kiev. Yeah, they keep its daily phone calls, sometimes multiple phone calls throughout the day. So they have resources they'll find out about it and they'll keep pursuing, but not necessarily original targeting is. Correct. Yeah. And it's you know, you think of it as that. It's kind of a threat or impersonation, but it's almost like a romance scam because some of these people will trust these folks. You know, they become
friends with them. I had a victim that that he was talking from somebody in dc. Thought that was probably pretty cool that he was talking to this person that, you know, had all this kloten in the federal law enforcement world was asking them, hey, family, is your family doing anything for vacation this summer? So becomes this lake. This really, really huge trust factor. And just make some going even deeper. And questions are now. Right. Thank you so much for your presentation. Stick around. Come back up. We're going to find out represent Haitian. Welcome up. Stillwater Mayor Ted Kozlowski in Stillwater, Police Chief Ryan Miller I want to particularly sout out to the I believe that you called my
legislative aide back. Don't know anything day the day that we reached out to you. And I just that's amazing. And we appreciate her response of this. And then the fact that their police chief are both going to be here with us today to talk to about Welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having thank you for having us. I'm very excited that a lot of cities starting to pay attention to I think it's something every one of our cities has been struggling. But we made the with that because we do an outright ban on these. And so that kind rain, a lot of bells and and with the news coverage that the city of Stillwater got on on the ban of we've had dozens of communities reach out the city of Saint Paul, smaller cities in Wisconsin. Even. Trying to figure this out. So appreciate all the visibility,
great presentation for Friends of Forest Lake. I think covered a lot of the stuff we're dealing with. think you can skip over What these things are. kind interesting to me as mayor and looking at their chief and this year's in these campaigns. Have always assumed these things keep money. Came out of lake is just one right? Which makes these things absolutely everybody involved trading. Crypto are buying crypto. Don't use these machines. I mean, frankly, from what we've seen in the city is still water with a small community. We don't have many of these. spoke a lot of people that are relieved that not one of those people but they've every fish they're like you would never use these machines. The markup on buying for those way too high. It just they don't make sense. And even the operators that we've spoken to that have these and their businesses were unaware. If you could get
money. Didn't think it was a one-way transactional thing they were unaware of the fraud. Those problems. Most of them don't want this in their operations at this point. Those kind of interest and can skip over that. Thank you for us. Like a great job of fraud, the and with these are this is what we're seeing in Stillwater again very similar to what other are sign there. We can see the presentation time mean media area for any of the first one state? That is what we're seeing have the age distribution that we're breaking out. And so again, what different, I think in Stillwater is. Our city attorney who as wonderful Corey Blank sheet, she does present some options. You know, obviously the state has a part of this and what they regulate.
She said we can license things, try to regulate these things or we could just write ships are just pass an ordinance to ban we elected just to bell. We don't have staff or the resources to effectively regulate these machines, even though we only have a few of them in our city, the amount of resources that would take for Stillwater to do that. Single little and some audible. And again, it didn't seem like there was any value and having change our city. All right. Typically what I do something no matter what I do in the city of Stillwater, I'm going to hear some feedback from residents say I think what you're proposing is a terrible idea. I think we've all heard that idea puppy is go water and you
know, some will complain, right? So with there were there were 0 complaints at the notion of in Stillwater, which I thought was really telling. So. With that, working with the council working with there are some people in law enforcement. Doing these things entirely. And so I think, you know, I'm not an attorney, I think, but the issue is, is this what other cities are facing? Is the notion of prevention and what were the state lies and where the Fed lies what the city can actually do. And we're taking the view that, you know, we don't regulate crypto business, right? That's that's certainly the state. But this tool, this machine is a tool to not an atm machine I
think misnomer. But this tool that they use, we can we can regulate the box, right? And so we just decided to outright ban those know where that leads will probably involve courts things like that. But to protect our citizens, that's what we elected to do. And again, we've 0 pushback from the community or the operator is in doing. We've obviously heard from the crypto am providers. It's and one, you know, nice little nasty Graham email saying We - can't do what we're doing and you just went ahead and did anyway. And so again with with with your guys is interest in this and other friends in Forest Lake beyond. I will say also talked to our wonderful state rep House or state senator on House Lee and state rep says I hill they're both interested pushing legislation forward to either regulate these things Yeah, I don't know if the state would ban them outright. I think it
probably should. So we're working at angle as well. And I would encourage our friends in Forest Lake of course, a safe also to do this and I think really need to push the state. This is walking again. We don't have the legal capacity to fight for the crypto industry here in Stillwater. But if we can all get together, I think it'd be And so I guess this is again, you know why we chose to home. And that's kind of it with that. I you know, I think we've got some good stories from our friends in force like a letter chief, top of kind process that we went through in Stillwater from, you know, kind of identifying the victims, working with investigators on working city attorney. And kind of what they brought before council to get a store today. Will take some questions. Great. Thank you, Mayor. Welcome Yeah, thank you, MADAM PRESIDENT and committee
members for having us. Really appreciate again, the visibility to this issue. Also, we're a small community. 20,000 people with kind of finite resources, investigations. This first came to my attention with our detectives saying last nght we are overwhelmed by the amount of fraud that we're seeing in specifically targeting our elderly and our community. So once you're targeting and a specific population or community, raises my attention and I sat down and talked with them. Start look at the numbers and it's absolutely staggering. And and, you know, I'm not the business of regulating You know, we've come you developments the council to to deal with that. We literally fall like, in my opinion that these are purely predatory. I
mean, I'm looking back to check cashing businesses low-income neighborhoods and things like there's no to me business value for these. Again, the mayor said that you can't get the get money out of these. I talked a lot of people might have a portfolio on crypto-currency and every single one of said no, I actually can I get a line to get on my phone transfer funds. I had fun take funds out. I do not use an atm and so again, I start asking looking into these cases and every single case was just heartbreaking because literally every single case. So we're looking at north of of of half a million dollars in the last several years of either lost or attempted last. We're starting to track that
like the money that we MAY have intervened or a family member has intervened. And so when we start looking at this, the college to our city attorney, Mike, what do we do with this? This isn't necessarily interested in regulating because I don't see a value like, you know, we regulate size businesses. We regulate cbd businesses and tobacco, all those kinds of things. But there's a legitimate business valley for that. This could not find anything legitimate business value other than a predatory against those specific demographic in our community. So start looking at that. And that was an option. And, you know, with the support of the mayor and the council, that's a path that we chose to to protect our community. So we had, you know, upwards of 4 these we said no to south. As
you saw, we were giving 60 days to remove these. You know, I wasn't really should even in the relationship between the business owner that was leasing or allowing this this item to be on the property either. Of to the businesses, simply unplug them right away and said we're done. We saw the news. We saw it. We understand what's happening here. That is not the business. So we want to run. It's a Lee enough. Within 10 minutes of unplugging this device, the company called and said, hey, your devices offline, we're sending someone out. And so to me, I can't get that kind of service with the money. I make it to on my energy bill or anything like that. And they had someone coming out to me. We asked i talked to bizarre. I said, does that speak to the predatory nature of this
business? And so we move forward and obviously get one little anecdote. You know, great stories. We all have the same stories anytime law enforcement gets together. Tell the same stories about people being victimized and targeted. And we had this wonderful lady who was told that she was $20,000 overpaid on PayPal account. And so, you know, someone calls me with that. I don't even answer the phone to lead whatever. But I worry that my mother, my grandmother, you know, might be a victim of that. So she went to the bank with through $20,000, not questions as to why some. Well, that to happen. But I hope that, you know, someone is looking into that. She went $20,000 cash to a cryptocurrency Tim and just started putting money into it and she was so nervous and so
scared what might happen to her because she was just a sinus. Little lady that she couldn't be stopped. And the business owner called us called 9-1-1 and said I talked this lady. She is terrified. This isn't even the stories heard. The stories were. There's either the perceived threat or the actual voice threat of family members being targeted or you have warrants for your arrest, accept or this is just your over payment. Somehow convinced her to send money and then they sent the overpayment back. So we went on scene and one of my detectives had to like physically interject himself between atm and this lady because she was so nerve with no office over like I have to take care of us and putting money in the time we got there. She put in $5800 of the $20,000 were able claw a
little bit of that. Back to some of the means that was discussed here, my friends of Forest Lake, but not all that. But she was ready to give up $20,000 of whatever that might have been in her life savings. And so we've seen people that as mentioned that are targeted, that, you know, have, you know, are very high and come under like low income. So it's like every demographic. But there is a target. As with with his more with multiple most of these scammers with the elderly because tey our Justin is your is your target. Is your population to take advantage of? So thank you. Without separate questions. Thanks so much. At Bank. Thank you. Council PRESIDENT. first, I just really want to say thank you so much to to all the speakers today for coming presenting for me personally, this has been a huge learning opportunity. I'm also not familiar going down
into the currency of Hi, how you want to describe it. But I think even yesterday saw my first machine and I was at cup this in the east side. But that's only because of that's a topic of the agenda here. Sites Trapnell year with it. I really appreciate how you all were in sharing about how you can tear decision-making over being the machines. How it won by committee members and who was targeted also like just even weighing. Is this something that we have staff capacity to do, regulations in force main and will serve really, really important questions for for us to even consider I I was wondering one of you would be able to talk a bit about. About Lake about why these machines are even out there in the first place. Just background information about that because I'm hearing
examples on here's how it's not working and saying really carry us on why think the idea of you die. We don't get to be. The man's daughter writes, I've got got day job technology. So it's not technology that you know, kind of probably some of the same news if the idea was was probably for the is easy place for people to buy crypto. Has been, you know, it's kind of everlasting fad at this point. And so it it made it for somebody might not be that tech savvy or might not know how to purchase crypto, you know, between their account and website. You know, you're going to Cup foods, which is a brand we all trusted from Minnesota from Stillwater, you You are going have food. JULY had trust co clues I can put some money in here buy do because, you know,
maybe want my kids prepay school. I just made a bunch of money and that plane and so I think that was the original idea was kind of an easy user from the way to buy cryptocurrency that get involved. Connect to your bank account with a crypto wallet and setting all those things. I was kind of a one source place to do that. But absolutely useless. In my estimation. And thanks for the question becomes, mayor, if I can add, too, I think just the fees percent fees on this speaks to a predatory action to me. So if you're online and you're working what I mean told as you're looking at a one percent fee of that whole overall transaction, we're seeing up to 25% fee. So that speaks to me that the only person is going to pay for
that is one individual doesn't have the means or the knowledge or the support around them to make a good financial decision. And so they're preying on those individuals and their capturing that 25% because no one would do that. Even if the you know the legitimate individual that's working in this in platform is going to go someplace else. To me, there's absolutely 0 value for thank you, chief. That brings up a good point and I love your question because I think one of the ways state could maybe regulate its like they do with other, you know, kind on track and things those high interest rate. Won't just just to reduce the percentage these machines charge. I think that probably pretty quickly reduce the incentive for them to stick these machines at Cub Foods stores and things like
that. It is absolutely planned cut its that fee. That drives makes up right away. And that's just a couple follow-up questions to him. And and hearing you on the part where it's like, it's it's completely useless and wondering like, is there a success? We get all in I do see that data on the number of scams that have occurred in same wonder, you know, I'm like what is the other side of that story? There are there people who are thinking, hey, this is something that we do want to see a night. I do want say, too. I think that even one scam is already too much. And that's something that I very invested in as making sure that we also are preventing in city here is So that's other question. And that another one to is owns these machines? their own. I mean, and in the city of Stillwater think, you know, for the 5 with 3 of the 4, whatever by the same company that's based out of
Reno. All right. Get the exchange that they use is based out of Reno. The machine is owned by company based out of Florida. So yeah, typically the all Florida South, Florida Nevada. Was like that when you said the all said. But she I believe the machines ae. owned by a company that's a subsidiary of the exchange that its base in 2 different states. So they know how to build the separation to get your point. Is there any value in these things yet in Stillwater we've seen absolutely no. I mean, obviously business owners that are getting a percentage of the fees are probably she some income again for us. It's probably relatively small, right? Because it's a small city. You know, they're probably our machines in the city of Saint Paul. I would imagine with those business
owners, small business owners are probably shining brightly quite good profit out of having thing in there. But the bulk of those dollars are coming from private transactions up from So, you know, for us in Stillwater, a business owners don't want to have any association me, it's completed. That task will be locally owned gas station, right? They were very apt to be like we have no desire do this. We don't. This is not a huge part of income. This is not what we do for a living. It fine with with getting rid of show. I don't think you're going to get much pushback. And add to that note, like we literally haven't looked at at that piece of that. So fraud. So there's other atm or other cryptocurrency fraud as was mentioned, that's happening the etc, north of 70% of our cryptocurrency
fraud is happening these cryptocurrency atm's. And so we did not normal a normal business that we're looking at and wondering if it's legal what is happening is legal. We would look at the benefits of the community and all of that. We did. And it was so overwhelming. The fraud them on father's happening, the targeting those having the predatory actions that were happening, that haven't spent any time. So there might be a couple. But I my guess is very, very little. Expense. And I want to go to MISTER Brodsky and I do want make sure we have time for last speaker who is actually institute who brought this to our attention to talk about the issue in Saint Paul. We'll keep you around investors, but MR. Prescott. Thanks to present maker. I won't repeat the points made by other folks, but I support,
you know, the Councilmember Yang and others, I just I share the same skepticism to be honest with you. I have much more skepticism about cryptocurrency in general as well, Vince and conveyed here today. But I I understand we're focusing on the most camille of this Camille elements of I would just note for the record because I can't help myself. Stillwater has administered citations enforcement tools. Just saying that as a neutral fact. And then I also note I'm very thankful you already raised it with your state delegation because that's obviously something we will need to do with their own, just to make sure even if the new user peace is the only fix let alone further fixes it you know, all of us help raise that for state level. Folks. And you hit the nail on the head previously. When you said that 30% ae upwards of 30%.
The comparison isn't just like an aggressive credit card fee. It's much more can I think to what implied earlier to sort of a payday lending that had to be in force at a much greater level by the state just because it's these people, they know how to go after vulnerable folks. They know how to go after needy folks. And when you're in a moment of desperation, you can expect a person to be making a fully logical informed choice when they feel like if I can't pay rent, if I can keep my family safe. And so that's the reason why things like this are needed. Some budget named and yeah, I yeah. I think that's. One of the emails I got from film, the sheen operator what we have been signs,
right? We have a sign that says. You know, be aware, fraud and fraud happens. I'm like, well, obviously it's not working. That was their whole like argument to like doing everything we can. We have a sign on the scene that says, you know, like don't put money unless you know who you're giving it to My That's that's not enough for us. You can so. Thank you so much, Thank you, chief. Again, we might have further questions you didn't hear later. It's helpful to have another city. Like for us like that helps give us example of what might be possible. Thank you let us if there's doubt. And he said that. Thanks so much. And then finally, our last presentation is MR. Putin about to welcome you I want to thank you so much, sir, for reaching I think we we talked on this council about the need to really understand the impact that things are having on real people. We've heard some stories about real today, but
you are someone who is brave enough to share a story of what actually happened to you and so wanted to welcome you and thank you for bringing this to our attention. The first place. Well, thank you very much. PRESIDENT Maker. And I'm Megan and generally, I'd also like thank you for everything you've done for me. So if you're wondering, what does a person's been scammed? Looked like this is what they look like. I'm 70 years old to so I following the senior category and I'm being targeted and there's some questions as far as how did they target people. But I get to that in what I want to do is start off with. From the Minnesota Commerce Department, one of the employees, Mike Fleiss checker. His comment. They are
Oscar level actors. They know how to address your concerns. Know how to mentally prepare you for what you're doing. And they always have an answer to how they're helping you. And they can add veiled threats in these situations to motivate the victim as well. That is exactly what happened to me in my situation. And this is interesting, too. Micah new report that show that impersonating Xfinity ad the Federal Trade Commission. There were 4 cases. I was one of those 4 cases it was probably the same person who claimed to be Peter Garcia that that was doing it. But when it happened, it was a FEBRUARY 6 by 3 o'clock. In
the afternoon. I got a call from Xfinity set right there my phone. And they said that there's an abnormally high activity of I'm a network. They need to look at it and thinking, gee, so I gave him access through a program called any desks they got in and he did some diagnostics and they can see all these lines of code and all the stuff goes right they're using your network to upload child and I'm going vote was I have to stop Some things that stopped. And then he ended up producing report that showed all of the things that were going on in my machine. And it was branded Xfinity and it 188 child money laundering. A short trip to do it showed opening up new accounts. All of the stuff. I'm just absolutely horrified. And he
says, you know, I've stopped everything. I've assigned a new ip address she and so, you know, that's been done. But we have to get a technician out tomorrow to you. Look at your machine and take some stuff off the router. So he sent me an e-mail perfectly branded x food, Finity you know, the logos, everything had the name of technician, the id number, the telephone number of the technician, cop, a picture that piece of equipment they're getting used to get the router in all of the disclaimers. It was perfect. Of course, you know, I'm reading this as the guy. It was still talking access my machine and he goes because of the nature of with child in the money laundering. I have
to report this to the ftc. And so the next day I was having lunch, couple of friends who are attorneys and I told them and they both turned white and they said, you know, Tim, you know, child, money laundering, ftc, you're guilty until proven innocent. You're going to want to get an attorney. Then I got the call from the from the ftc, the fake ftc. He gave me his credentials, telephone number, his badge number and later on even showed me a picture of his badge with the ftc official badges picture and everything, you know, validating that he was official a law enforcement person. Well, this guy started off scared me half to death because, you know, I'm not guilty. And those warrant issued for my arrest. And, you I can choose to work with him and he might be able to get me
off or I can just The marshals will be at my at my door and any moment. So of course, I want cooperate. And so you sent me document. Aligning all of this stuff. And during this whole time, keeps talking about, you know me. And although this identifying information, which is kind of scary, that he knows so much about me. In retrospect, of course, I know it's probably from my linked in page some press releases and some other things been in the past. But just things that available public. But I wasn't thinking about that. And of course, I wanted to cooperate him. And he said, well, the way that you have to be able to prove that the money that you have actually your money, not
laundered money. So we need to set up a cryptocurrency for you. And I don't I don't know. He goes well, we're going to direct you to go to your bank, which I did and went to my bank and took out money. And I was going put it into the bitcoin machines. During this process. Of course, he takes over access to my phone to because he said I have to be able to follow you. You know, you know, a lot show with you. The whole process going to the bank. You know, we can monitor the cameras and the bank. We have the cameras on the traffic. So we know when you're going into the bnk when you're leaving the bank, we know everything about you. I think I'm watching like fbi or something like that. I go to that first machine and it was at Haskell slicker on Fort
Parkway. It it would only take $1900. I didn't know about the law. He directed to to another machine. The old Tracy Oil, the holiday Marshall. And that took $2000. Well, this is late at night. And, you know, I'm just absolutely wired. In fact, I am so wired and anxious that my 5th, it is sending me notifications. Stop what you're doing. Your heart racing is at danger of having a healthy fat. But I was ignoring that because I had to take care follow all of the stuff. The next day. Thank goodness there snow snow storm say Paul and nothing been plowed so I couldn't go back out and tell. I didn't mean us. Emergency had not been sorry. And so I started again and of course, now he's finding
out more information. So if you talk about how did they know if you have other stuff? Well, he's got access to my computer so you can see the different things. I have. You can also you know, and you know, my address going to the county records. They can see what my house is valued at. They know I live a macro front. They can kind of guess they looked like then they can see the companies I work for. And this guy's all. Of course, he's got a 401 k or ira. A there is interesting because after the 3rd machine start talking, well, we need to have this happen quicker. So we're going to have to move the precious metals. You know, on Monday. So I've had to liquidate my account by precious metals. Give it to his agent. Who would give it to the the judge dc? 4th went back the Tracy Oil and I was not feeling comfortable at
this point. He was feeling real comfortable because he wasn't even listening in on my conversation anymore. Ad it was the first time looked at this because I've been told before, you know, they gave me the qr code t use. I didn't know anything about that and told me the scroll through very quickly. All of the warning message isn't everything which I did. But this 4th time, all of a sudden I'm seeing the notices on the machines and I'm starting to read, not feeling comfortable, but I still want to and did that 4th, you transaction. Getting e-mail from Rocket Coin ad rocket Coin. This is over at the lucky 7 over by a creaking. It said in order finalize transaction need to call us. We need to talk to
you. At that time realize, ok, I've been scammed. And so I took any desk off my computer took it off by phone. You know, contacted the rocket coin and I said I think I've been scammed. They go well, you have will give you your money back. So that work out really good. So I took the any desk off a computer, but my computers now host up. I can't get it to me. My banking account, my credit You know, it looked like it locked up. Some all the things I just told shut that down. The next day going rise and they got a brand new cell phone and what a good squad gave my computer. And they had a wife that you're totally.
And I also contacted the ftc and then I started here on the Saint Paul Police report, the ftc report, the fbi report, you know, all of the different reports. How does somebody get duped into this? And I just kind of it. Quick recap of some of the tactics that were used against me create fear and anxiety and confusion. Moment for my arrest told me that she goes. That's the first thing that they want to do is get you in a state of confusion. They took over control of cell phone and they told me not to tell anybody what he's doing, including my wife. They got mad at me when I contradicted downpour told him that I had contacted my bank. They tried to build trust by talking about who's a 25 ftc employee. He got angry when I challenged him because they couldn't understand him because of Spanish accent. He played the race card on me and said, well, if I don't like dealing
with some of the Spanish, you know, I can get somebody like you, you and to deal with you told me the government's made it quite machines available. So that I common places so people can, you know, use them. And the totally safe and I'll get all money back. Again, he had cope with the telephone number. So I could see was the ftc is shown a copy of badge with this picture and the ftc credentials. Everything was branded ftc emails. I got from them. Is very, very scary. But I digress. My presentation tale. And a lot of this has already been covered and just one thing I won't mention about, you know, how how the stamps work in dealing with
the Commerce Department. I was telling everybody is doing this presentation that got the zip code name. And I said, you know, I can understand locating the machines and the neighborhoods that are affluent, whatever. But what's with putting machines in the poor neighborhoods and she just kind of goes well. That's for the people that 3rd person place, the sheriff, law enforcement, government officials. And she said the latest one we have going on right now is a look at the jail rosters for the night before that figure out who just got locked up. They find out who the family members are. They contact them. You need to make bail for little Johnny. our machines are downs. After hours. Only we can do it. You can go today. The
tobacco shop or the vpes and to get it taken care of. And that was just, you know, really discouraging hear that they're doing that. I've got a friend that works in the Department of Corrections. And she told me that last year all got the notice about jail roster. You know, the issues. All over the news that will get into. I just got my 5. So there are 375 that claim that she here in Minnesota. And there's 263 in the Saint Paul area. Nice thing about all this, want you know how to find So all of this information is available publicly. And they look just like an atm machine and a lot of us never even notice them before. Until recently, I certainly didn't. Before that. I saw kind of the lead Tina point people rocket and flipped point again. You know how many locations that they have in
Saint Paul. And, you know, there's 30,000 bitcoin atm's in the U.S. Right now. All in 2017, there were only 1200. That's absolutely unreal. And there's more than 275 minutes a From the zip code standpoint, you can areas that they're targeting in Saint Paul. it played people and again, they have little map so you can easily find your way there. Even show you the address of all of these locations. All 5th point they want, you know, that do business all of country and how many they have. The states. Bitcoin. I should mention that point. People at least was the one that after Minnesota Commerce Department contacted them. They said they'll be refunding my money. I get to see that. We'll see Athena bitcoin as not even gotten back to Commerce
Department also happens to be one that's appearing in the news with Bad press about, you scams and fraud eerything. And again, they're all over Twin Cities. Lack point. And again, not as many. But you can see, you know, where they're located point You can see the areas that they're located them and who they're targeting. All smoke and vapor stores, liquor that they shot. Just 1, 1, 0nd where it her. The think you commit So the so that's it in a nutshell. That's a Megan. I said that when she asked me to put together a presentation is hope you don't mind confirm the I retired. I haven't done PowerPoint presentation to 5 years degree have And I
appreciate starting with your story. And that really helps paint the picture for all of us. And I think there was some questions and purse from MR. Prophetic in them. It's just yeah. Thanks, council. PRESIDENT MR. Funke I believe year award for constituent. You and I have not had the chance speak directly, but I know you've reached out with Jenny and starting again. Just have to personally tell yu what it means for you to have the willingness and the bravery to walk through this step by step because I think it's easy. If you were to write that out, for instance, of every step that happened, it would be easy for someone to parse through and look at an individual step and say why
did the person do that individual step? But the reason the whole story matters and why the context matters is they're they're throwing you into a context that you're not comfortable with. The federal agency reached out to me. I would have no, I'm lke have worked in government for consent local. If I was dealing with the federal law Enforcement agency, the ftc, I would have no idea what to I would feel completely to home that would be uncertain. I would have no like bearings on what I was supposed to be doing. And so I think the context and how the situation goes about it. So important for people to remember because they're walking you through this journey. And so you willing to share that. I just can't thank you enough for helping raise this for us because there's so many folks
who have dealt with the exact same thing, but obviously having to walk through it and publicly discuss it is not only, you know, very difficult choice, but it's a lot of work that you put in to help raise this for us. And I think one element of your story that we did talk aout earlier, but particularly your information helps paint. Is having so many different companies and so many different vendors of which you have to go to means that any enforcement or recourse ten is a complete and absolute game of whack a mole because trying to get one company to follow through on meeting the state regulation, commerce and then another and then another. And then another is just sort of the cherry on top of this. Absolutely terrible Sunday
that you're dealing with. So every sort of structural piece of this is set up to make an individual consumer fail. And so I just really appreciate you raising it and appreciate your willingness thank you. Thank you, council PRESIDENT, thank you, MR. Plunkett for sharing your story. I again, just really appreciate you coming in and and walking us through it. Simpler similar Councilmember provides. He just said it really. You know, I don't think if I read it would really fully understand just how sophisticated that the process was and what you experience and how like how traumatic it was a well, was listening to tell the story and just like all of the fear and anxiety and everything
that happened with it, i really, really appreciate you coming in to share your story. I was flipping through your presentation and all the information. It was really helpful. I'm not familiar with cryptocurrency. I wasn't even really familiar with this issue, but I was looking and there's quite a few of these I represent were 3 so Highland Park part McAllister, girl and was 7. There's like 4 or 5 of these in my neighborhood in quite a few of them. Highland where we have, you know, higher concentrations of elders in our community. And so I just really appreciate that. Your summary of where these are things that are attention as I'm thinking about, you know what the next steps are. You know, really for me, just thinking about what value to these even add to our communities and to our
residents, because I guess I'm just having a hard time seeing what that is right now. So I want to thank you for coming to tell your story and thank you for compiling all this information for us. It's extremely it should helpful. Thank you. Questions or comments. No questions at all that plan to say. Really appreciate here on a sea of transparency, your bravery. Which sharing your your step by step of the story. I represent Ward one. So is the summit University area and Midway. So I know that the Marshall holiday stories went to really brought its full circle. I'm someone goes to that gas station often and I walked past. It has and have no clue what it does. I'm actually kind of feel like I'm - ready. The protests after, you
know this but I have a lot of questions particularly around just in it, even from your story that you mentioned that you shared with us. It's heartbreaking. Really, really heartbreaking. But I know that you are alone. And that you are paving the way for other people to share their stories and also helping us consider what our actions can be to ensure that you are protected. So as one also just say, thank you for taking the time to be here. Thank you all. So Megan and thank you council PRESIDENT To leading on this topic I think this is really great use of our time, particularly learning about this issue extensively. And thank you again. I just want to acknowledge everything my colleagues have said and recognize that, you know, you you had the
the courage and also the ability and the resources to come here at 10:00am. On Wednesday and tell your story correspond with my legislative aide with for a legislative and just know, it takes a lot to do that. And you, I hope know that you're speaking on behalf of so many people who don't have the resources to do for whatever reason. So I appreciate you bringing up to the question you asked about why are some of these so many of these located in low-income neighborhoods as well? To thanks for thank you for doing that for for being here and being willing to. To carry I did notice that Detective Halsted looked like he had one more item to add so MR. Putin presidency. Thank you again, detective come on back and actually had a question for you as you're coming up to 10, say your additional thing. I
was why, you know why the city for Slick decided to go the route of regulation rather than an outright ban on the machines. We heard the mayor still waters and the chief talk about just lack of resources and the fact that there wasn't any obvious benefit to having these machines. And obviously first, they took a different path. So if to the extent that you can tell us about that in other ways, we can follow up as well that they can. Yeah, it's kind through third-party. So. our city attorney did her due diligence and contacted a bunch of legal resources. And so that was one of our actions. And she just felt like to stay out of litigation. Easiest to do the regulation at the business level versus going directly at
these companies who? a businessman at the the business in Forest Lake MAY not a vested interest in continuing to but the business that's getting money and profiting so much is definitely going to have a vested interest fighting and going after anybody. That's that's we just think she just felt like that's going to be At least resistance. That's helpful. Thank you. I ak in part because even though we're a bigger city, we we still have the same. Resource constraints. And I want to thank director of the department's taking inspections we see for taking time to be here in today. But it's a conversation we have frequently about just every time we put a new ordinance into place that requires
regulation. It also requires resources. So. But you have something else to I did. I glazed over 2 points, my presentation. So I apologize. But their fairly important in something that you guys also think about. When we're talking about this amount of money usually cash. So when you think of something, a $20,000 cash, they're walking around with that $20,000. Cash, then you think about somebody that has no idea what they're doing. They're standing at a mission confuse And attention to their surroundings. So there is an opportunity now for this to be a white collar crime, too. It turning into an assault robbery. So that's something I think that gets glazed over a little bit. It was one of my more important points to for what it so sorry. But you know, when specially of some
of that elderly, second, all the different themselves, someone sees him staying at the kiosks and they envelope full of cash just about of a bank. Things get really So other point to have is more of of a research topic for you. Our neighbor to the South, Iowa is kind of spearheading everything against cryptocurrency so they've been seizing machines. There's litigation there. But the ag office is actually seen a couple of the 10 companies. So if you go to the gfs website, they have a really colorful easy to read document. And they did. Their investigators did research and found that. 98% of the users that transacted on Tim kiosks for fraud. And then I think it was 94 to 95% of users at transacted on another key ask for fraud. Almost 100% of the users they contacted when they transacted on those atm to a
fraudulent. that's all I have. Thank you very All right. Well, that brings us to the end of our structure presentations. I guess I would just like to my part of the purpose of this was to take in information and also too. But we heard just say anything to one another that we want to I can speak for myself and just saying that. I this is something that I'm interested in pursuing anyone else who is also interested in pursuing especially now that we have this presentation. But folks, that's reactions further questions for further research that people would want to know about it after. I will just say, I appreciate, you know, just kind of taking in the different presentations that were here today. It does sound like this ordinance would need administered citations as a
part of enforcement as a piece of that. And so I just share that from my colleagues because it seems like whether it was a banner regulation. It would have to be and find attached to that. And so that's something to note for future conversations and future considerations of yet another example where if our city I not able to implement things like that attached to the enforcement and the steps that we want to take. It doesn't necessarily help on the back in and the actual ability for our staff and our team too. Tools and kind of a I guess, resources for advocacy or 4, even being able to kind of in this case go after folks that or entities that would nt abide by city ordinances. And so that's what I'll be looking at 2 on. I appreciate just kind of being being able to talk about this directly. It's not something
that I it. Previously heard much about or really was not something that was on my radar. Just something that would be like. But looking at, you know, just hearing some of the story city. I think it's really important to watch. But that piece, I think will be critical to like how we actually enforce anything that we decide do That's just a nervous called PRESIDENT Of getting coupons for Johnson for for flying that. I thinking about that as well. I think what I'll be thinking about is, you know, the the Forest Lake has like regulation on them. And then there's a fan and so water. So just looking at what has the impacts then in those cities with the measures that they've tried to do and then I'm also thinking about with that regulation like in Forest Lake, you know, that will require, you know, work on staffs. And Johnson, the
ability to just some of the some of things I'll be thinking about as as we're talking about what might be the best solution for for our city. It's depressing. Thanks. PRESIDENT Maker I yeah, I would echo the points made Councilmembers. Johnson just and I would also just say, I think that the timing of, you know, we're right now at the end of this year's. Legislative session for 2025 or nearing it. I would be curious when we do our check ins with the state delegation or even just checking, for example, of the Commerce Department has been discussed in this. I don't track that committee closely, but timing wise, it might be primed for this to be teed up for something consider next year, too. So that's that's my current thinking is I would obviously we all in love affair state-level solutions that we don't have the chance to kind of individual citizens. So that's my starting biased. But I think should there be local action needed? Our officers actually
be helpful game us. Yeah, I would just say like if think it's an important note under way for a legislative agenda for council, the one thing I would say is that problem clearly seems like it is much larger than our city ability as well, too. And so I think that I would encourage for folks that are leading to make direct contact with the attorney general's office and kind of see like what is happening there at the Department of Commerce and the seat just to see like what is happening statewide because I'm sure the Catholic theirs. There's been a lot of recent coverage around still waters decision to go pull up. And I wonder how that's influencing and talking to folks. And so I'd be curious to see that. But I'd also be interested in seeing how other. If there is any legal challenges that come
out of the city of the waters acision kind of what that looks like in the court. I think it just helps for future cities, too, be able to find and base for the side, the kind of direction you want to go. T it sounds like that there's peace is moving different ways and the right wing that allow it to be really powerful. Eventually, I think that culd be my ideal space with something like this is that it's very clear like this extends well beyond our and it might be one thing to like get out of our neighborhood back But does that do for the holistic problem that I think? You know, the homeless issue is that we don't want folks understand anyone being able to be scammed by very predatory. And even just hearing from MR. Pockets example and being able to hear from your story like I can
only imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end of a call like that. I mean, even now that would scare me, you know. And so and you know, to your point, I do have friends and folks kind of validate that as well like, you know, friends or just kind of like bro. That's a like you really are like. This is terrible. You know, I think about how like Matt, does it help? You know, you hear that you're like, oh, my GOD, like, you know, by and we go straight to like. I'm going to present for an extended period of time was I do everything that's on the receiving end of what they're sharing. And so I can come him and thighs with how that would be extremely anxiety inducing, you know, having very little resources to know what in the world I do with that. You're taking the steps. It sounds like to validate validity and
the person you're speaking do. But it just seems like. There should be much more. Then you know, like the actions that we've taken. So it does seem like this could even be a region-wide. ability. And so I just share that of I'm curious if the office of attorney general is looking into this, then what are they thinking about that? How the state is looking into it, too, because it's one thing to do here. But it could be potentially continuation of house. Some of our neighborhood city's poor sleep can still water are already leading the charge on this. people and in some of the larger cities and suburban surrounding areas too. Thanks start. And I think that's a great point in the MISS Yang. Just want to piggyback on that to say really appreciative people are talking about this, not
necessarily either because often what we find, you know, is that we can and are advised to act at the local level. And then at the same time, the advocating for state action or sometimes to the point we're just making Johnson, it's the actions we take at the local level, but then actually get the state to take action. A great example is aren't sick and safe time and a minimum wage ordinances, which of course we saw in our community that we took action on and then the state ended up following suit. But for the meantime, at least the people in Saint Paul where we're protected. And so I think there's value to pursuing the parallel track for sure. They Thanks, council PRESIDENT, right for some say the I really appreciate having that willingness to take on the conversation around policy for this really supportive of us coming together, you and figuring out what we want to about this want to share that
just with all the information, but especially the data on the lack of benefits really in the value that the machines green. It really does make me interested I and what it up and for that for our city would likely to and just saying that as a council member who does represent an area near city there's high rates of poverty and and when I think about the people who are going to be taking advantage of folks who are black bound working communities and seniors who makes because such a large part of words And so I really look forward to the conversation. Also, sauna, share to data on this to be so important. And really
interested in what the user experience and just like more data that relevant to Saint Paul, what that looks like in a really a patient that there is already a bit of pea beyond that from the first speaker. Thanks, it. And the other was fully yes with close Some I thought about it on definitely is clearly a public safety issue. economic security that's preying on. I mean, communities that we have already talked about icy like you mentioned. I agree. I don't think there's like one. Pat. I think there's multiple pathways. I think there's definitely. More awareness and education that the city could invest and particularly around like her hero department like how we talk about like wage. That's how we talk about all these different Braun abilities. Are crimes against protected classes. I think
this can be. The say can also have that that investment understanding that, you know, we don't have all the resources and now having to like a program on. That's not going to happen overnight. But i think this is great stepping stone for me. I can. My questions are more so around. Like assessing the negative impacts. I like we have. We know where these kiosks are located. But even here in the story about people who are getting out of jail, where book to how that information is used. It seems understanding this is public record. So it's not data privacy issue, but it's also like data, you know, weaponization. They're using public data to be able to like harm people. So I think at is worth investigating. Also have
questions of advocacy. I I think this will be a great opportunity to host like a public town hall like COUNCILMAN Justin said, like maybe on a regional basis with the ags office, the Department Commerce, but also having the advocacy partners a rip at the table. I know they are really, really. Impactful invisible and taking charge at the state level. But it will be nice for them to come before us and now as we are exploring this, this route. But yeah, in my word is a lot of So I was even from this pocket like he represents a majority of of my word will. I curious to hear from. I definitely see that if we were
to. Have even the ordinance or even host a public hearing. You know, I think it will be really, really heartbreaking day to hear all those stories and now now that we have heard one story, I think this is opportunity for us to now look at ways that the city can protect, you know, where it's not just the city, but it's really more so opportunity for us to have an integrated approach with the state in the county. Great. Thank you. Ms Billion. Thanks to all of you for those comments. I know we're close to time. So happens that want to thank everyone who joined us today. And I also want especially thank the staff. We're here at the police department. Are Paris safety inspections MAY be some other staff, another commentator recognize. But if you hear, thank you because part of this also was to share
information with our departments. And hope that you would reach out to us afterwards to share your thoughts and reactions and if and preferences course of action. Based on what you heard today, so thanks again, everybody. We will be following up and we are