Toast here, camp. Maker here Yang Chair Johnson here verify PRESIDENT To have commissioners believe and Commissioner Kemp. Great. Well. Feels good to be back with us on my first. Host, a paternity chairing this meeting. I just want to say thank you so much to my Sergio's for holding it down alive. And I'm I have genuinely appreciated bad and allowed me to attend virtually when I had to. And then also just being able to spend time with my son. Isaiah meant a lot to me to know that this body was still in good hands and and see the meeting still go successfully. So thank you so much for being able to do that. We got one more meeting. Yes, covered up for Vice Chair Joe. For the sake of the flow of today's meeting, we are actually take this agenda out of order. The resolution discussion
pertains to be. Emergency rental assistance guideline update since I want get to the staff reports first. So our folks are okay with Actually start with the report and then the discussion last today. Starting with item number 2, staff report Sr 26 dash. 21 update on citywide and inheritance fund down payment assistance program and the 2026 program guidelines updates. All right. So you will notice that over the next several metings and to between now genuinely ends in APRIL of this year. There will be many intentional presentations that I've been given based off of the commissioners priorities where we'll be able to provide updates and plans for this
body and so different programs that we have either funded through Affordable Housing aid or through the Housing Trust Fund or through the jury and one way, shape or form a common front of this body fr updates, guideline changes and or just general plans for 2026. And so we're starting that out first with the down payment systems and the inheritance fun. I've heard that a lot of support for this throughout the different wards, but also just generally wanting to bring this back so they won't ging into depth about exactly what something is. We had that last year. This will be really pertaining to the work in 2025. And the work plans for 2026, we started with these early because I want to make sure that we were able to hear from. I'm Rachel in the
housing team directly and just wanted to be able have a start somewhere. So we're starting with tat down payment assistance fund and then he returns here. And I headed over to director man headed over Richardson has about is here to be provides update on the down payment assistance program. And she also noticed just a 2026 program guideline update. And that would then be before you for consideration next week. And to use a lesson from a second, get region. But, you know, I should say or ss the second one is fun as yes. Here I was like I'm going to say or person if you've got that's all. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Absolutely, I'm very excited to be here. Actually doing to presentations free today and the first one will be on the upcoming assistance in the second. Be on the
emergency Rent Assistance Program. Those are both programs that follow Unfollow under my purview has a housing program and policy manager here at the city. So just to start us off, we're going to do a little bit of what the program goals are for each of these programs. Little bit of intention setting where we were in 2025. Plan on going and 2026. And I want to say that the down payment assistance program was something started in 2019. And as of today, the down payment assistance and West Side Flats Inheritance Fund are not currently open for applications, but the Rondo Inheritance Fund program is still accepting applications on a rolling basis. But we'll
talk Kicking us off. Just reminding this body. And that's a commissioner. Nick or Lexus a million years at The program goals that we have for here is deepening and expanding our home ownership opportunities to people with lower incomes building wealth, help address the racial homeownership gap in Saint Paul and the inheritance from specifically offers additional down payment assistance to property owners directly impacted by the construction of I-94 and the Riverview Industrial Park helping rebuild last community and household wealth. I wasn't over but I was always actually have a first question from Commissioner. I want to ask ahead of time before we get to the end here, you know, wondering ask a question for the first or second if you just provide some clarity around
the requirements for the Terrapins finding. Of someone who has been impacted where there. Relative has owned their homes with that requirement. Is that something that's is city policy and terms over prior manners at something? But can you speak to like what the reasoning behind that type of framework. the entirety of the inheritance fund guidelines is something created and managed by the city of Saint Paul. The reason why we hone in on property ownership is because it is really the main way that we have to verify that somebody was displaced from either of these. Either the construction and I-94 or the Riverview Industrial Parks. So both of those cases this and it has have on their home. Is there anything like state statute that's requiring us to
you know, have as ownership particularly know. I know asking this question because myself and chair Johnson both have kind brought into question around those who are renters are also equally And if if there's any like state statute says requiring us to not only classify those been impacted by homeownership are can we also include renters? So I will first clarified to say, we say that it is related to property ownership. So that could be of somebody like owned their bsiness, owned the physical structure of the business. They would be potentially eligible for descendants. See under this program. In addition to that, the again, the main reason that we focus on property ownership is because it provides us a paper trail so
that we can verify that a resident was displaced by these situations because as we're all aware, there are also many projects going around at the same time. One last question because I want to just make sure crystal clear zones like this is the administrative lead guidelines is, isn't a policy or ordinance. Our state statute that requires that more so administrative. What's the best Ministry of approach hearing from It is something that we are running and house. It is not something that I am aware far as I'm aware. It is not a state regulation restricting us from this. It is a decision that we have made internally on how to do conduct best practices. Thank Any other questions. Free to continue. Yes,
thank I also want to cover the overview of the down payment assistance programs since I'm gonna referred to them as the umbrella that they are. I know oftentimes it can get confusing when we're referring to one program or the other. But in reality, your down payment assistance programs are an umbrella under that umbrella. Lives are citywide down payment assistance program as well as our inheritance fun programs and those inheritance fun programs can offer a layer of citywide down payment assistance depending on income levels. So just morning to clear that up, in addition to that as a reminder for this body and the public that MAY be watching that in 2023. Is when Mayor Carter had shared his vision for rebuilding
family wealth in the that was lost through te Rondo the displacement of Rhonda residents through the construction of I-94 1956. And the inheritance fund was expanded in 2025. To include the West Side community for because of the work that they had done on their flats. The future report. Some of the general terms that we have for this program, program. Again, we're going full umbrella this time. The eu says can be yours are on down payments. Closing costs, home inspections and interest rate by downs. The interest rate that we offer 0%. And it is 15 years for given at an amortized rate of one 15 annually. So once you live in your home here, rate goes down a little bit every single year. What you back to the city. There is no monthly
repayments of this long. That is due until the bar where cells transfers title no longer lives in the home. It's fully forgiven if the homeowner remains in the home for that full 15 years. I also want to take a moment to talk about the layers that we offer with the inheritance fun because I have found through my time here at the city of Saint Paul and getting to work with this wonderful team that there's oftentimes some confusion about the way that we talk about the layers that the inheritance fun has to offer. So just trying out a new graphic here. With the inheritance fund. We are for 4 different layers of funding, not every individual is going to receive every single layer of funding. Some might receive every layer. Others MAY receive a mix of those layers for potential of funding up to
$110,000. So, for example, if I am someone who earns 100% am I and I am a West Side resident who chooses to buy on the West Side again, I would be eligible for the first layer $50,000 as well as the $10,000 Community Welfare. Just wanted to discuss that a little bit further and remind everybody the body of what layers that we have to offer with the And a 2025 so. I want to state upfront that between this presentation that you're seeing from me and the next one, we're going to have some differences in the ways that I'm going to do reporting and talking about how we did in 2025, this is large part due to 2 different reasons. The first bing is that down payment assistance has been a longstanding program that's running pretty effectively ad
smoothly. And the second being that with emergency rental assistance, we had the opportunity to use a robust software system. This program paraded through Excel spreadsheet. So there's a little bit more difficult to get some of the same that we are going to be showing with the All of this work I also want to add is carried out by what is currently now 2 full-time employees of tease. 1, specialist to and the project manager Chris and one lone specialist assistance. But the project manager and one special assistant also work on emergency rent assistance. Over the course of the year. We opened 3 time for interest forms. Interest forms are when somebody applies and says, yes, I am prequalified for a mortgage and then we send them application. Opened up in JUNE 2025. For about 2 and half weeks. SEPTEMBER 2025. For a week as well as
NOVEMBER for one week. And during that time we had seen in total 162 applications come in. We have closed on 49 loans and with 12 additional people shopping for a home right now into closings that are scheduled. And you can see the additional breakdown 44 of those being citywide lawns, 5 going to West Side Flats, Inheritance Fund recipients. And we do have one run to inheritance for scheduled for closing and one additional person shopping right now. The reason why you're seeing a discrepancy between 262 applications. I mentioned in the 49 loans has more to do with the fact that like if someone doesn't reply to us, that would be seen as a denial it is far more common we have denials because someone just doesn't get people back to us
than it is that someone qualified for programs and then missed. But all the action have to questions commissioner maker thanks Johnson as fun as a doll, you actually just answered one of my But I would like to see would be helpful to see a little bit more breakdown between one 62 in the 49. So how many of those were just they didn't play versus word tonight because they were eligible the different practice that that fell into. I'm curious the amount of spends 2.3 million. How much is left of anything and also I know we had originally when we created the West Side Flats Inheritance Fund, we had kept created sort of a cap on the West Side flats and a cap on Rondo so that they each were guaranteed some. I think we had said that can remember what we said about what would happen if applications for one
exceeded that Can you tell us a little bit about where that those numbers are at? So in terms of the Actually start with your first question. So thank you, There is I can absolutely get you a bigger breaks down. I will have to consult with staff, as I mentioned, Excel spreadsheets it might take me a second to be able to produce that. In addition to that with the expenditures for the West Side flats, we actually had more people by then we had funding for me tapped Leighton funding source that we had available to us to be able to close on some additional ones. Can your money to west Flats Cap? Rhonda caps 500 each a 500 page and the West Side. Let's is now gone and has been get into other and it will be opening when we open up the program again. Yes. And yes in so guess when
that thing So the 500,000 that was from a safe place was fully expended in 2025. I'm sorry. Can you say it again? The 500,004 West Flats was fully expected, some understanding. And then you pull from other sources. And then your mind also down payment assistance allocation for 2025. Yes, so we were allocated in total, 2 million dollars. 1 million was for citywide and the other million was for te inheritance from program split evenly across the 2. We also gained access to some additional how resources known as the impact funds from Minnesota housing and actually due to the cybersecurity incident. We focused on spending state dollars as much as possible. So we have collectively spent about 1.2 million dollars in lost time and then 1.0, 2, 5 million
inch or impact funds. And then we also had some remaining housing trust fund dollars that we expended for when certain situations arise. That made sense to utilize that part of And so just basement. Yeah. So wouldn't be able to have follow-up. I think this is really important wen it comes to Des Moines money moving that we you know, we're glad that that was able to be used as as a song. I don't believe it came to this body anyway that that was happening. So have a nice to know just kind of what it was for what, you know, kind of where we pulled from and what we were able to successfully already due for 2025 and what that does to any sort of state funding that we have in the future. Spouses that really help. Which might be more of a financial thing. S I think I
saw deputy director as wll. But that is just I think it'll be a helpful picture for that of like where we pulled from and what that did to the balance of this so that sounds great. I'm glad that the West side flats, inheritance, fun pieces moving, it's actually great to hear that. That is, you know, I know that one of the conversations we had about that was around whether you know how we can you heard. Fun movement. So to see that there was a fight, he's great looking forward to hearing that, you know, in seen that that same will happen and the Rondo in here. That's fun, too. Commissioner Tim, I saw your hand. Thank you. Chair. just a question Lke the definition of denial rates. Not a credit to Niles. Just they didn't like submit all documentation, maybe within a specific window of time. Ten I'm assuming that doesn't change the eligibility to like
reapply. Yeah. What's the communication that sent up to the folks that were denied that just based on sort people working, maybe not meeting kind of those, maybe 38 highlands. He just have that is Chair Johnson, Commissioner Kemp, thank you for that question. I believe it is a little bit different between the way that people might be denied. So if somebody is denied because they are not qualified, it is usually coming with a description of why that is often times it is over. MAY be an example. That is most common for us. Then when it comes to folks who MAY not moving forward because they just haven't received or we have not received documentation from then we're giving them a warning of, hey, we need your documentation here. And once they don't have
it, we let them know your time has lapsed and we need to keep moving on because oftentimes when I say often, I mean, all his we end up with a little bit of a wait list. So we want to make sure we're touching everybody about case. there any sort follow Is there any sort of follow up with those folks where he's clearly interest and they've met sort of the eligibility criteria even recognize we have a waiting list. But assuming this sort of that built an extra waiting list to ever go back and say, hey, we're going to approve more money. You attempt to the first time or because it doesn't selling doesn't need necessarily for us to do more recruitment, recognizing that they at least made a good faith attempt. Is there any sort of additional reached to those families? Yes, s we do have an e-mail listserv that we
utilize to be able to say this program is opening up. Commissioner thank you, Chair Johnson and thank you so much, Rachel piggyback off the question, particularly around the denial and time lapse share what is the time lapse know what is the duration of that time has that? Is that made visible on the website are when people apply that they have a x amount of days that can imagine, particularly for the down payment assistance. One of the challenges is the timing, you know, to find that house and then go through the underwriting. I mean, for someone who, you know, went through the home buying process like the timing is
always, you can fluctuate. So can you share if there's anything made public, particularly around with that time lapse time is or durations kids have house? Takes between the so I. actually, briefly glanced my staff much time can you remind me? My staff, Yeah, my staff Krista said that they communicate 30 days from the time of application to the. To be able to return documentation. Had I definitely want to just, you know, put out there for someone who you know, and I'm sure this homeowners and we've all been through the process and the 30 days is really such a short window of is that is that 30 days of getting all of your paperwork and in terms of you secure the house, you been approved for a loan. If you talk about what is expected of the applicant
and what documents tat they need to have within those 30 days Churches and commissioner movie. So yes, that is only for the paperwork side in order to even start working with this program. They need to be pure prequalified for mortgage. So they are oftentimes ready to go in just the this down payment assistance as the last thing to get them over into home ownership. So it is only the paperwork side they are not having to actually we encourage them not to have treatment before working with our program. We qualified them and then they go shop. So that is a different timeline. The 30 days that we are offering is really more The initial
paperwork that we need from I thank you for that clarity. So sounds like this is a pre qualify down payments instead assistance. Loan, they're not expected to have found that house. When they apply do. fact, we prefer that they that. Thank U.S.. Ay other questions that I help. And to some additional successes that we have from this program in 2025, as I mentioned, one of the major goals that we have for this program is deepening and expanding homeownership and we are seeing a lot of success here with Our average purchase price is $265,000. And one metric. I'm incredibly proud of is that our household sizes expanded to 2.4, 5 people. And we're seeing a lot more families applying for this program and receiving benefit
from this program. The average income of households is $67,000 and the average pr cent or the percentage of households that were renters that purchases. 88%. Another 22%. Maybe somebody who living with their family or things like also have a really good breakdown my spectrum where we see about this even halfway split of folks that earn more than 60%, am I in less than 60% and my purchasing utilizing this program. In addition to that, when it comes to addressing the racial homeownership gap, I do want to state that we in order to collect racial data, the lenders won't application. We do not collect that
ourselves personally. So we are utilizing oftentimes the way that the federal government likes report. So not totally broken down by race and ethnicity in a perfect way. But we for work primarily with and Havilland to primarily with bipoc folks. And in addition to that, many of people who identified as white also actually identified as Hispanic and Latino, we found so doing good work there. Commissioner, thank you. Chair Genson. So these are our do. This is our data in terms of how many loans closing the racial demographics particularly closed on along with us and we this information from the lender. This isn't our data. You've got this information from lender. Can you speak to that? It's in for its data tat - we're collecting from a lender's application. Our
lender application or know the primary lenders application cat it. Okay. So that's have data from how many people unless racial demographics of how many people are actually approving closed. So this would be just for people who have closed on a loan with us. So this is kind of So this is the information that's from the primary lender that received a loan from us. But I guess I'm sure I understand because they MAY have different lenders, right? It seems speak to like how many lenders and you actually see this data from. Yes, so all lenders are using the same form. I believe what it was called as a 10. 0, 3, so we're receiving the same form from various different lenders, not requirement of our program that, yu know what the first mortgages and have some of those documentation thank Ben. Just to clarify because we get those that
cause, we can see those on the access. Those forms are able to take the demographic off of. Thank you, Commissioner Kemp. It's just just add on to its an optional one is well, I'm correct, yes, yeah. So it's an optional form like applicants will fill across the board. It's a uniform. Farm that all under seems to capture the Can you say a little bit why we don't close that ourselves is just because the access to the state or is it just I mean, I think think we all know it's like one of the fair housing laws like you don't. You don't legends based on a person's like race, but can you speak a little bit to maybe why we don't collect that data for our purposes, but we want to access it from the lender besides obviously the outcome. So we can see. Church and for sure, can I that's a great question. And I
actually think I need to do a historical look back on. That was nt a decision that I necessarily make So I that is something under it down and get back to you Yeah, I would assume and I do think this is a safe assumption. I would assume that we collect to this - information or if we have and it's because we don't collect it because there's no reason for us to not to Lakeland to someone that is credit worthy for programs as long as they fed are income levels. But I think what you know, really interested in this is this slide. How are we? Utilizing the scarce resources that we have to help close the racial for home ownership for our communities. So I intentional it intentionally on the front end and back end could be an interesting conversation around like what we collect in line. Yeah, and I appreciate you and Johns. Appreciate you
raising that question. I only just ask because I know we usually collect data and other aspects. And I was just curious between we have. Our own internal process not collecting the data on in the in the front and of application, but if someone close is successful, we have as option for them to collect that data. Just like we do in other applications. even our hiring practices, know options for them to share their racial data. So but it sounds like you don't have internal collecting practice. I'm sure that we permission from providers. Thank you cases to That's why the to think Sounds good. All right, commissioner, thanks, chair. Just to a slightly different tack. I want to just not pass the slide without acknowledging the main point here, which is
I think that we And staff in particular doing a phenomenal job with the program goals that looks like more than half. And I'm not sure what other don't know if others more than one race or what. But even if you just look at what's in front of us, more than half of the loans that are closed, people of color. And the purpose of this is to address the racial homeownership gap. So I think taking us back troubles showing the results seeing that the program is meeting its goals is really important. And I want acknowledge that. Thank you. And a rough number of say 71%, I believe is the calculation that we made. That Identified as a people of color either through race or ethnicity, data. Her and I see commissioner And then I see Commissioner Bowie again. And then I will also have a question for So commissioner can yeah, appreciate just just
originally been. And I guess housing. Why haven't you been it longer than I have? Is that, you know, we can close gaps and educate folks and get them in homeownership. But ultimately the thing that helps close the gap is sustaining those levels. We see these same communities, exit homeownership and not re-enter them. And so we also have to put a pug in back end. And so one thing that I'm really interested in is seeing the success of this program. Is in tandem with this. Is there a small but meaningful conversation that we have around emergency mortgage assistance like we saw the homeownership rate. The for closure crisis. Was working at Habitat for Humanity. That was one of the ways that we maintain homeownership for for these communities. So it's just a name like these are
incredible success is. And then how do we in our own way measure how are impacting the sustained level home ownership over time since we have this fun now, super interested even in 20 years from now, none of us will be here. Maybe. But like what does that sustained look for the borrowers and now we've assisted because I think that's really this is meaningful. And I think the end goal is to get them to stay in that home. Yes. I think along that vein, you know, one of the data points that I hope that we eventually that collect with. This data point and most likely with the program next that we hear about as well is really just around that this has been in place since 2019, right? That's a good 7 You know, going on 7 years. I am curious has to how many loans the PRESIDENT Still is in the
home that they were able to get. And I think that's an important piece to just check in for those residents that we have been able to support. Because, again, one of the reasons where our offices so passionate about the down payment assistance program that we have here at the city is because these residents cannot get down payment assistance from Ramsey County because we do have our own down payment assistance ad we do have our own program. And so I'm always just going to be you know, support making sure that able to get program up and running them to expend the resources that we have because it keeps Saint Paul Saint Paul. And so I'm looking forward to that data point. I think eventually of see news with our, you know, 7 years of
time and plus and counting. But that's there. And I and just for folks awareness. And 26, we did put 2 million dollars trust on payment assistance and additional million again for the inheritance. For both West Side Flats and Rondo. So a 3 million dollar total, which isn't a million dollar allocation more than last year and kind of on par with some of the numbers that you're seeing. Commissioner. But we did. You have a follow-up question yet? Not question, but just, you know, feedback and response, particularly to the slide. I do think it does paint the picture, particularly around like where the impact is and where outcomes and matching or goals that this down payment assistance is. Designed for I would say just, you know, across the board, expanding those data sets to have disaggregated data, particularly.
We know that and that, you know what classifies as a black and has entire day asked write how we're able to track East African and Somali our West Africa and are but American, you know, all those things, paint a different picture, right? But tells the same story in terms of who's actually benefiting, you know, from this program. And also I want touch on, you know, also the same thing around Asian, like we have a really Larchmont population. And I don't know if that is being captured, you know, with when we just say Asian, you know, what does that mean for Karin community needs no other Asian American communities as well. MR. Does at all do you have a response to better? No, I was just going to say thank you all for your points. We absolutely. And that is something that we take into mind. It's good to hear that we're thinking in a similar
vein for sure. Yeah, I think since we collect to stay to continue to evolve the data, I think the you know, especially with this program because we don't have a software in it. I think it'll just be really important to keep as much data on things as we can knowing that informs future decisions that we make. So really appreciate that. And for my last major slide 2026 and one thing I forgot to say. I know that was requested to have a heat map of the places where people are purchasing. I do not have that right at the moment. It is something I can follow up with. But I will say that majority of places that we are seeing people purchase a home. As you saw $265,000 was our average purchase price we're seeing at most commonly your
neighborhoods, like from For our town. Payne, Failla Dayton's bluff, some in Battle Creek. And then we did see an uptick in the West Side. Thanks in large part to the West Side flats in here. That's fun. And smart forget So. Okay, 2026 updates. I. For the program guideline updates that I will be bringing to the board. There is not actually too big one. I only have one thing really offered for a change. And that is something that we want in order to be able to extend an offer and has for more people. So that would be splitting the way that people in citywide down payment assistance program receive this benefit. So for folks that are up to 60%, am I they would still continue to receive $40,000, which is what we offer for
citywide assistance. Those who are 61 to 80%. And I we would like to bring that down to 20,000 so that we can structure dollars further. The reason for is in particular, I did a lot of research or another down payment assistance programs surrounding communities and 40,000 is actually a very unique number. Most common we are seeing is 20,000. So we're just trying to find ways to do more with what we have. Commissioner, thanks, chair their support this change and particularly know it looks like that would sort of shift the balance looking at who is applying. The slides showed about income distribution. Probably away from the 61 to 80% and more towards the lower side of the income scale. So I think that's the marketable thing to do. There are 2 ideas that were brought up for changes for guidelines this
year that I want to see what the thinking has been on. One of them is the one that Commissioner Bowie mentioned earlier. This idea tat and I agree with her entirely. So many of the folks that were displaced for renters. And I know you and others have raised the concern that it's harder to trace and figure out who those people were. The problem is that if we're trying to do is rectify and inequity, the fact that you are renting your home is actually relevant to the amount of harm you experienced. In fact, people own the homes off and did not live in They have moved up and out of the neighborhood and were renting to folks would come in more recently. And so the people who are really displaced for the Raptors, even if they didn't have the property law. So I'm really interested in digging in a little bit more to find out if if there is a way to figure out that lineage, obviously have to be able to verify it. But it seems like in terms of
the goals of our program, if we could verify those would be the people want to be think that's one question. And the second one is a smaller change. But I know it has been suggested by the West community and I wanted to shout out to community organization and their health, especially Julio there who has been instrumental in and working with you. And that's that is part of the reason why I think that program has seen some success because of of West Coast work who has worked in particular the question has been raised about te timeframe of the West side flats displacement. And I know there were a couple of properties that someone had been displaced slightly after year that we say that was the displacement. Kind of calling into question how we decided that that year was really the
end point. And sure there's historical work that can go into this. But I guess I'm just want to make sure that we have really fully explore the question of when do we really say that displacement ended so that we're not inadvertently cutting someone off who actually should be included? So right to update changes that I was hoping to see reflected here would love to hear more about. Johnson commissioner maker. I appreciate those as That would be something that I think will take some more deep exploration just because we do need to finally formalize pathways to. Enable that So I think that we might take a little bit more time, but it is definitely something that we can look into and continue to explore. I know that we've heard that from that wanting to have that access for renters. Has been something that has been a continuous
narrative beginning with the Rondo program and then continuing on into the Web And I will say that I think Rondo Community Land Trusts currently has programs that address renters. And the des they asked displacement so they currently have active programs within broader community land trust that they do separately. And as the steward or of our funds when it comes to Rondo the run, the community, maybe, you know, this is an area where they can be beneficial and helpful at least on the line of how they actually do that. Because that's of interest of mine as well. I've heard many feedback about that, especially during that time frame. You know, before the historical displacement came lighting in our communities and the hardship that involved, especially when black and brown folks were
even trying to purchase a home. There's an inequity that there's multiple layers there. But just really taking it at face value. If you were displaced by the construction of 94 that us, that is what we're trying to rectify and whether you're a homeowner renter. You know, part of it doesn't necessarily weigh heavy on me. And I know the direction because I just became a homeowner. And you know that and I would hate to be cut from a program that could potentially be left out there for me and my family because I didn't. And at that time, but still had to relocate. And so there's some of that. But for presidents for sure. Commissioner Bowie and commissioner maker and myself. And I think it's kind of a general sense of something that we would like to see. And if not by, you know, the time that this guideline change comes through definitely as a guideline
change to consider as we move forward. And then but the piece about the year want go back to that. I don't. Do you have any further clarification on commissioner Knickers question around the time period in which displacement is being quantified? I do not stack fractionally. Okay. I'm keeping a list here. Just a few things that coming from. All nice like, you know, to send a follow-up. And if we MISS Anything, commissioners, please do respond back with a question or 2 because I'm trying to track that as well. Old fashion right? But right, what's happening with my pen? So I'll be doing my best to collect the questions that come through as well. And we can press. Consult fat. I do want to time check getting through the materials in order to be able t have it. So Commissioner Bowie out, have you take the last question on this? However, get through the
slides and then we MAY have to transition for today. Yeah, I well as one I want to say. Appreciate Cmmissioner Andy Kerr and also chair Johnson for reiterating how you know, I was hoping to see the updates today. That there was going to be a change, verification process. The fact that last year we just had one person close on the hair, tons 5 on the side was not the outcome was really hoping to see. I want to see that increase. And you all have heard that for me, whether that is updating of our policies are figuring out who's the best partner to actually administer that verification. I'm here to be a
champion for that also want to say as someone who is a descendant of Rondo and has family who live Saint Paul for over 100 years. We do know displacement has multiple factors is not just the building of I-94. It was series of other displacements when it's a play with which is why the reason, you know, we have 8billion dollar wealth particularly in Rondo between African-American communities here in Saint Paul and our white counterparts. So I do see, you know, I do anticipate and want to offer just urge that, you know, this is important for us. However, we need to formalize that pathway. Please let us know if that is policy. Of course you're hearing from, you know, 3 commissioners that we want to see this. So I really no really want to urge that, you
know, hopefully we get a chance to see that program update included the program just because you have been hearing from people who've been denied or not qualify for it. So I just want to on that point. So thank you so much. Council chair Johnson for every minute. To Trump saying commissioner, yes, thank you. I. Again agree with your points. It's a matter of I think just doubling down on some research of how that would be feasible for us. And heard that Rondo does have a program and there and I know that the Web site fox has their own body of research. I it is something that I definitely will have us continue dig down into for sure. Thank you. thank you. And that. Just as a reminder, and I think you go through some of these, but the just the timing opening
them. And also just a the guideline changes that will come back before us. Yes, super on MARCH. 11th, will be bringing guideline changes to this body and it will include the m. A change is, as I said, it will probably take us time to look further into. Adjusting the inheritance fun program. So expect just that guideline change at this moment. And then for the proposed launch. We anticipate that happening at the beginning of APRIL, possibly meet late MARCH. This is so that we can meet the housing market which kicks off in APRIL. Typically for the state of Minnesota and we dissipate. Once we launch that first time, we are going to be opening at set times through 2026. So when it comes to announcing paper opening down payment assistance, we will also communicate every other period of time. We anticipate
being open for applications for the remainder of the year. Going to skip this side for that time and lovely photo from the West Side. Celebration in DECEMBER. So thank you. Go into the next presentation. Item. Number 3, a staff report 26 dash. 22. Emergency rental assistance, eviction prevention program, race and staffing rview and 2026 program deadline of 6. So this is related me as another program update, but also obviously going to have really relevant parts to some of this is that we will make us about today. They were intimate assistance. As you all know, it's something that I'm genuinely really invested in. I have wanted to continue to see the strengthening of and so being able to have this update. And then also just to
be able to see the planning for 2026, very important, very timely. So once again of all. Thank you for being here. Thank you, chair. Yes, you just continue to hear from So just kicking us off right away here. The purpose of I'm just going to purpose of the year is to provide funding to individuals and families renting in Saint Paul with the verifiable pending eviction to be paid directly to the landlord and purpose for that is to call it an eviction action. And we'll talk a little bit more about that down the line Assistance in our guidelines is capped at $2500 for families and renters
earning 80% and my or lower eligible expenses, including rent late fees. Court fees and the payments are supposed to be made directly to the landlord, but they must agree to halt the eviction proceedings. A grip on the payment of rent. And we do provide everyone a letter of guarantee when they're approved. How 2025? One for us current staffing levels that we have for this program has been one key supervisor that is myself he and using 0.5 of their time and one lone specialist assistant. And then we utilize all 7 of p g's always to answer preliminary phone calls. I do want to give them a brief shout out. It was a lot of work and I'm so grateful for everything that they did for that program. The day's open for application was 23 and the days open for processing was 76. And you can see some of the details in the
numbers that we have here. So out of 23 days of being open, we received 610 applications. Over being open for 76 days. We had processed 190 applications and I want to just clarify for this body. What processed means for us for one process means that they could have been approved for funding or denied because it takes time oftentimes for us to be able to also deny an application. Process does not mean that an application was untouched. It just means because I believe we went through everybody's application at some point or another looked at some component of their application. It just means that by the time that we put a pause on this program and processing what we had, we did not complete their applications to get to a point
of approval. So aditionally, the calls fielded by simple staff. So that would be case managers like myself. And the always was over 2,200. In our average processing time for application was 3.2 hours. And I also want to make that clear that for processing time, that is only including like case management time. That does not include time for payment. We have been seeing oftentimes payment has been taking several weeks to be able to get to a landlord. The other numbers that I want to bring to your attention because it will become relevant for the remainder of this presentation is some of the average is that we were seeing. So the average grant requested amount. So the amount average that we were paying out was about $2000,
2014. The average total request for money that was asked for us in applications was about $3,000. The percent of people that we paid a flat $2,500 to was 46% of the people that we paid out. In our percentage of households that request and more than 2,500 ws 53%. And then a part of what contributes to that is that folks who are hit with a housing court summons state, their average need for assistance was $4,463. We really see a skyrocketing of assistance need once we have a housing court date, as I'm sure all of you in this body or were court fees are very expensive. I'm typically seeing like 700 to $900 for - court fees. And that's just for the summons. That's once you're done with court. You have what you have to pay fr additional fees for being a quarter. And for lawyers and things like that. We have 17% of people who applied when the
applied. They had a court date. And lastly, an interesting point that we're able to pull from our system and relevant to a recent Pena Press article was that the percentage of applicants that we were applied? Almost 40% of them. We're applicants and protected affordable housing. So that could be that they lived with the pha. They have housing choice voucher or they were in a We colas data with time. Housing to see which units might b that. In addition, I have some demographic dta. This is data that we're collecting on her own. So again, a little bit different than the way that we're asking because it's not as connected to the way the federal government wants us to ask about race. So as you can see, our numbers pretty well
line up with anticipated impacts of eviction by race that we see around us, which is primarily affecting Bipoc house us. And just so think I can see the distinction, but I just wanted to make it for the record. Because though, the dark green and the light green category look pretty said sir, can you confirm that 66% is for black or African-American practice lie? Yes. The light green. I can walk through a cause very briefly. The dark green is black or African American. he color is Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander. There is a at blackish color that is other Asian as a various a slim one percent orange, Hispanic or Latino was 4%. White is 17% and prefer not to
say was 5%. Thank you so You're welcome. I just I'm again. And I just wanted to test everyone session today, including so. I have 2 maps here, too, for you to be able to see where all of the applications were coming from as well as who we process. So we are heat where we anticipate seeing te most most renters in the cities. As well as who we approved and paid, which matches up pretty pretty well. We're pretty close to having a good match here. For our proposed amendments for 2026. So my first one is. Again, bringing us back to the data that I was discussing. We are proposing to increase our grant amount from $2,500 to $3,500. As you might recall, I did say our average was $3,000. But the reason staff
made the decision to ak for 3500 is because if we think about this and a bell curve, I really want to pushes past the crest of the bell curve to expedite the way that we can process people, frankly, having a cap at 2,500, that was not even meeting. The average need slowed us down tremendously because we needed tenants to be able to find additional resources to be made whole in order for us to pay We also are looking for proof of income changes, some adjustments to be made for one is allowing tha subsidies like the housing choice, voucher or rad to count towards proof of income because these tenants oftentimes are are have to be under 60%. Am I? It would just be another thing that can help expedite our approval. And lastly would be reducing the proof of income through pay stubs from 60 days
to 30 days. The reason for this is because 53 found 53% of people who applied for this program where actually ended up using pay stubs, which is something we did not anticipate. We genuinely thought most people would be providing us other resource like letters of other resources they receive to help us expedite things. We're getting and pay stubs or something that was really slowing down the process because I will say I could probably count on one hand, the amount of people out of the 600 that I saw receive 60 days worth of pay stubs is more common that we got like. 2, if we're lucky. So reducing that amount from 30 days to 60 days is something that can help expedite that process.
Keep us from having to go back and forth with someone. Wesley is an introduction of eviction timeline. Restrictions. Just to give a very brief. Incredibly high level view of how eviction court works. I have a little bit of a graphic down here how the process flows for tenants most often. Tenants will be served with a 30 day notice of intent to evict, wich is the starting point where we can help tenants in this program. And if they do not cure there, late rent, the tenant would be served with an eviction summons. If they continue to not a cure their rent, then they would have to attend housing court. And oftentimes what we see is that people will receive like a payment plan after they've been to housing court. So it might be anywhere between, you know, a couple weeks to several months
that that payment plan can last. And if someone falls off their payment plan, that is typically when someone to serve with the writ rent. Is that final document that actually is requesting person to leave the premises where they live? Some of introduction that we want to have for restrictions on the timeline is not working with any cases that have a writ and if the reason for this is that it is the very unfortunate truth that once you have a writ oftentimes, those are anywhere from like one day to 3 days and a landlord demands to have payment in hand in order to stay that eviction. At that point. So we simply just cannot operate that quickly. Find leads to a lot of issues and creating more trouble for the tenant at that point, if we are continuing to
work with someone that has In addition to that also saying that applicants must apply prior to their eviction court prior to their some in-state. The reason for that is very similar where at that point landlords are often times like. Don't care about letter of guarantee. Don't want to continue to move forward with a 10. And after that point. In addition, their needs are often so high. We are having to sit and wait and try to have other parties come in and be involved in the process. I was finding that typically somebody who went to housing court. Very between having one additional source and attention to us to 3. So it be like me partnering with 3 different community poviders and having to make sure all of us agree we are going to pay. So that is the reason for those proposed amendments to Thank you so much. And I am actually pose a question to
the spotty. So we will operate on same guideline timelines for both the down payment assistance and rental assistance of this, too, will be coming back in for a back to the spotty on the 11th. Of MARCH. I'm very inclined to discuss the grant amount. That's something that we named and we have jurisdiction over deciding what it is. The $2500 cap was something that was brought up for a pilot for the purposes of to assess was never because we couldn't go higher or lower. But because this was what we wanted to test out in the first year upon hearing with your show you what you're sharing. I have appetite for that. 3500. I am supportive of that. I also have appetite for to pay. What is remaining to keep individual housed. So I am open to both. I want to pose
to the spotty really in terms of something to think about, especially because we have a couple weeks and to welcome your feedback in your or if you're really on all of this. But particular, when it comes to the grant amount. We are increasing the funding. Hopefully today something to think about is whether or not we want to keep someone in their actual unit. And if we do that, sometimes also means that w MAY want explore what that actually means and what that actually looks likes on individuals and have to use multiple different sources. So that something that I'm putting out tere because the cap, the minimum, the max, all that is set by this by within the city and it's up to us. And so that is something that I'm throwing out. There has a question. It's that 3500 sits well with you. We can for with that. I don't have pretty
supportive of that change. But if goal is to prevent the eviction and if folks want to do that, it's a county. That's my question to the But yes, we can continue. I do want get to the step the process and the staffing and then to make sure we do the vote within. The next 15 minutes of the next item. 2. Okay. On to the next slide. So for the process of continuing, we are proposing to go to a more limited systems that we can make sure that we're serving people who get into system rather than having in. Really difficult to cover. Wait list of folks the way that we had at this first go-round. So this would mean processing approximately 50 to 60 applications monthly applications would be open for 2 days a month. We anticipate it being at the beginning of
the month. Few reasons for First of all, we received 150 applications in just 2 days with minimal advertising for this program. We feel like w would have more than enough applications just being open for a very brief window of time. In addition to that, the choice of doing the first days rather than doing it further into the month is because we have number one, the 30 day notice of intent to evict does by the tenant sme additional time on working tenants on their cases. And what typically happens or what I have been seeing happen is somebody maybe like on the 3rd of the month will get the warning saying. Hey, you owe me money from their landlord and it's typically towards
closer to the end of the month where they're actually served with their 30 day notice of intent to So those are some of the reasons I will also add, we really would like to stick towards the beginning of the month so that we can process that 50 to 60 within a month and not carry them over to the following month. When we carry over to following month, it becomes incredibly administratively burdensome for us and for and for the tenants because we're asking for new red ledgers. We MAY need updated information on certain things. We want to just maintain make this as easy as possible for tenants and In addition to that, I mentioned a lottery system that we using with no preference to where somebody is within the system of being
evicted. This lottery system, something that would function like, let's say 100 people applied within 2 days. Our system would wreck randomly assigned a batch of 50 to 60 applications to staff and the other ones would be notified that they were not selected within that lottery. But it's something we could keep information for. So if in the first few days we see like some easy to Niles because they just don't live in Saint Paul or whatever we could bring in some of the people that weren't initially selected. So that is how we currently are anticipating the lottery system to work. We had a moment of thinking like what? We could wait lists the other folks. But in reality. We want them to be. We want them to be looking for other sources and not have to rely on us if we don't think we can
So that's the reason why not necessarily a wait list. As for staffing updates, we have 2.5 Ft ease. This is across pm's and again, myself pd supervisor working on We look to adding 01:00pm from the 2026 budget and we're working on a waiver for that position as well as 01:00pm from remaining families. First Housing pilot program and the Housing Trust Fund Balance. And in addition, we adding when accounting tech from that same source. And then I know there was a some additional information about the Housing Trust fund. Lastly, for the timeline. We have the MARCH 11th adoption of the guideline changes and I do have something in here that states open in JUNE. And I want to
clarify that. That is if we are waiting for full staff to be able to launch, there is a possibility that we could launch prior to having full staff and working with the staff that we have. But I jst want maintain expectations that this would less output and less communications to people who are applying for this program because we are understaffed. So for 2.5 Fte is reprocessed about 200 applications in a little over 2 months. On average, we see one full-time employee can approve about one application a day. You know, it inflows some days. I was like getting through 10 and then other days it's 0. Obviously. So we have one of 2 e can process about 21
applications in a month because of the amount of working dys. So I would say if you're like we need to launch right now, that would maybe look more like 25 to 40 with the current staffing capacity that we have. And last the last thing I also want to mention is potential collaboration with the county and other partners. And that is something that we've been exploring for this program as well. And just so folks are where I've asked for people first started. Share that with staff as I think that certain see of the program just does not match the launch in JUNE. So I did share that with staff and the director yesterday. And so what expecting to see that change to APRIL? Commissioner maker, thanks, as usual. And he along the same lines and
said you feel like you need to launch right now as soon as possible. Seems like. Better to get 25 to 30 applications that in a month and then none while we wait to get to full staffing and the model that worked last year MAY not have been ideal, but if it worked to some extent, I think we do need operate that sense of urgency. I also just wanted to thank you for that point about potential collaboration with the county going forward. Does strike me and I we created this program on our own because the county's emergency Rent Assistance program does not meet the needs of people Saint Paul. But that said, as this moves into more away from pilot and into more of a full program with staffing and with the capacity challenges you're talking about in the software challenges you're talking about, it does seem to me like it behooves us talk to the
county about ways in which these dollars could flow with their dollars to do exactly what we want them to do, but perhaps in a way that's more efficient. Yeah, I Commissioner Curry with the you know, the piece of the county piece. I just you know, I kind of shared with them to like the the point that you raise just around the importance of ensuring that the guidelines that were created here, it is unique in this different than how the current rental assistance from operates at the county, especially on that time of which on the continuum of when they can actually seek assistance. You know what the county you d actually have to have the court court summons, I think as well. Yes, and I will say in in a chair, Johnson and clap when we're talking a collaborating with the county or any other partners explicitly clear that
this is the city's program you would have to follow city guidelines I would say between you me, but I'm in public between your me. They actually have expressed many different things that they are jealous of for program in the way that it operates. And s they're welcome. Yeah, I think it's really great. I will just touch what we MAY hear today. And I share that with some commissioners. I got a chance to talk to about this right, community members who are looking inside trying to make sure that they're following this as well. Right. This is an internal city program and because we were intentional about the guidelines. And so even if they're our nonprofit partners, fun topic partners, individuals who have interests and collaborating with the city on this program. The guidelines are some of the most important thing, crucial
who were serving a lot of the numbers that you're seeing and probably even go as far as saying some of the applications that were processed and approved MAY or MAY not have couple or even eligible for funding under the rim. The county's current - process. And so even though their rental assistance programs that exist, now, the guidelines often throw us into a different category when it comes to when we can help, not how but what we can do and how fast. I think it's going to be really crucial for the next couple months. But yes, I think the whole reason why we're bringing forth 926,000 that will be voting on next. It's because of the urgency. It's because there's been a express staffing need. It's
because we want to make sure to see to give it a full year and starting in JUNE doesn't allow us to do that once again this year. And that's just not something that we want to see happen. So I think I saw him, but I do remember whose hand it was commissioner. You know are coming to a close here. But to Johnson and particularly from not the conversation I've been hearing, particularly the urgency. Even our public hearings that we've related to the grievances to the federal immigration policy. A lot of people been sharing that, you know, in the community, they've been raising and we've been seeing sccess amongst nonprofits, like simple
neighborhood House. Many of these community-based nonprofits have administered rental assistance are emergency rental assistance? Have we explored up halfway to where we can just allocator, you know, allocate the funds to organization that does not have some of the staffing issues that we have. I think, you know, we're again, always trying to saw staffing capacity and, you know, understanding there to is their appetite, particularly from like department are other colleagues, particularly around outsourcing this program just for the immediate need that all been hearing from. As of this year. Yeah. That this year that's been mostly focused on making sure that our internal structure can get up and running. I think the
urgency that we have like externally, I think there's a couple of casual interest, I think from my office that we received. But again, the guidelines has been most important and also just in general, my interest lies with ensuring that we have. You what we would see here, which would be almost over 3 million dollars in total that we need to continue to move on. Now and that that is an option to be explored. That's an option that can continue to be explored. The guidelines for me are non-negotiable. But then I think looking at just like the speed that we're working in. We're looking APRIL first, no timeline for this. I'm not sure what would be much quicker. Outsourcing. The months in advance. Even now. Do you have anything to add director an to John Whitmire is just going to add
the process of of the federation, working with partnerships, also takes time to establish. But I hear point commissioner, we and I definitely have had different conversations with folks who have expressed interest. And that's why share just with folks who are listening to anyone MAY have an interest, it's an appetite for it. And just knowing that they have to have both the capacity. The guideline abilities to operate that successfully. Thank tank you so much for both of those presentations and kind of walking us through that I want to move to the action item. Returning to the top of the agenda discussion item one r e s 26 dash 3, 3, one resolution amending the Housing Trust Fund projects. Budget 2 are provided funding for staffing in the Department of Planning and Economic Development. The emergency rental assistance
program citywide. Wonderful. And you'll hear about this more council. I'll save my remarks for that time. But as you all where them with us earlier, which involved both a $500,000 that was done by administrative order. Thanks to the mayor's office as well as their collaboration, which is an additional funding for rental assistance. And then we have a housing trust fund program. That was initiated in 2020. That has since snset at where this is where the funding has come from. From that we have an opportunity to add to staffing capacity because as you know, lot cannot support staffing for programs can support program funding, but not for staffing. And I. Want to just be able to bring this up. I asked a few director Green to just give an update logistics when it comes to the
budget amendment itself. But that is the overview director fan. Just a nice similarly that the family's first pilot program Nature a Housing Trust fund has remaining 1926 $1222 inside and transfer those funds into pd operations. For staffing and cfo, deputy Director Geen is here as well an answer. Any questions and over you. Thank Welcome. Deputy Director Good afternoon. It's good to see Tara Johnson and commissioners. Glad to be here this afternoon. I mean, as technical assistance of is that power point loaded ar know if it's not, it's ok. So I did do a presentation. But that's okay. I will speak to the resolution. So where we back open this talk about a little bit about where we started in 2025.
1 million dollars. We had some delay thank you to our staff and retail and county staff that worked in some of our payment work. So we're hoping to reduce that time. As we move forward, but we started with a million dollars Launched the program in NOVEMBER of 2025. Our APRIL or do start with every with every day we reopen. The program will have access to the ballots that million dollar allocation. And in 2025 at the end of 2025, we authorized 1.3, 8 million dollars in funding for the program DECEMBER of over in JANUARY of 2026, we identify a $500,000 budget allocation in for the families first program. And that program is already funded through our Housing trust fund. Multi years. We did not
need to put that allocation in my hot. So we in for the body form the or that that a a that allocation was not needed. Any determination was made to reallocate adjusts the allocation and move over to our a e r a program. So that the allocation from 1.3, 8 million to 1.0, 8, 8 Billion. If you approve this resolution. And a lot people will happen at the city council in the public hearing. But I just want to make sure we're tracking the total amount that's available for - the program. Providing level of funding for the program housing team is indicated, puts a strain on our staff. So I identified an additional
source of funding in our housing trust fund. I think that's for the familiar families program. I know we all love to be confused by these programs. So familiar faces versus familiar families. That $926,000 will be reallocated for staff. And that is in the housing trust fund. Needs to be moved over to the city side on our pd operations because of for staffing internally, our leadership has determined that We'll hire to staff and allow that funding to go on for multiple years so that we do not have to disrupt funding. We do not have to hire terminal staff. Short-term provisional staffing. Thank you, Deputy Director Green. And we will actually ensure that every commissioner gets
your presentation will have it sent out after this meeting as well. Just because it's a subsequent. Actually at the council and the position just simply go through what she shared in graphic form. And if you're like me and you like to visualize it, it will be sent out after this from Kelly. So just want make sure we got that. Commissioner Nick, thanks, chair, thanks to pdr Green. So just to be clear and high-level removing roughly 1.4 million dollars out of 2 programs that are not currently in need of those funds because te programs are either defunct whatever. Into the emergency rent assistance budget. And when we do that, what will be the total amount of dollars in the rent assistance budget compared to what we have now? For 2026, there's 1.3, 8, 1 million, 380,000. In addition to the $500,000. A
lot. So that 1.8 million is coming from law and that's the 2026 allocation. The 2025 allocation unspent balance. In a scene that's around 700,000 is also available. So at the time that you open up. 3.5. 3.5 million in the e r a program available for distribution. And in addition to the staffing and our current staffing program allows for staffing for As many as the next 3 years. Maybe a little bit more than that. I'm being conservative. Sorry. Some 1.8 million is 26. 700,000 is carried over from last year. 2 point land, 2.5. Sorry, 20 million total available for 2026 emergency 3.5 could include and I'm including the staff and he said progress that story. Thank you. So jst because I think folks last so
2.5 million dollars that can go out the door emergency rent assistance in 2026. To tuition at the rise. We would have had. Some of Atlas. that is what? Exactly. Other questions. I just wanted to clarify the rationale for the know, you mention that. You mentioned that briefly, but just to echo that point, the 2 staffing pieces and something that you'll see echoed in the resolution. Includes that this is for when rental assistance. So even though it's an allocation with the intent to allocate for, to support the staffing for multiple years to ensure that people are now displaced, that that is that is echoed and reflected resolution. And also on the board report. Thank you. Chair Johnson.
Yes, we we understand intent of the board is to ensure that the funding is utilized for this program when it moves out of the Housing Trust fund into pd operations. All for operations staff is included in that same budget. So all of our staffing and then internally, we designate allocate our staffing. According to the program's esta Great. Just what tnsion to time. I will move approval of this item. Any discussion. We have a wonderful all those in thank you. I appreciate 7 favors or oppose. The resolution is adopted. We will do this again. I could never left in the city council meeting earlier and I will say my remarks for that. Thank you so much for. That comment. And also the present. The presentation will be followed up after it's appreciated time and compiling that I just want to say a huge thank you and
Greta, to 2. The housing staff and housing team who I'm sure you've been sick of last few weeks, especially related getting this presentations up and running. They were our first guinea pigs for ongoing cycle of programs and presentations. So thank you for being willing to go first and then also thank you for your partnership and both of these programs. I'm sure that a lot of commissioners will be able to reach out if in the next 2 weeks you have a guideline change question related to it. The only reason I ask that you include office in that correspondence us because we are tracking the feedback that we get so we can ask each other where we land on them because we'll be working on trying to ensure that the guidelines doing come in front of us are likely to pass. And so if there are
certain things that you want to see added the program, it allows us to be able to at least ask other how they feel about that timeline. Change. So thank you. And with that, we are Ali.