##VIDEO ID:mvf9eHf4E2M## e e e e e e e e e e order this joint Workshop of the city commission and historic preservation board today is January 28th 2025 it is 400 p.m. let stand for the pledge of Allegiance please pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all city clerk if you please do a roll call member Hurley member young yes member Hawkin Smith yes member dashel yes chair Lowry yes vice mayor mahand here commissioner Marriott here commissioner Robinson here mayor petrola here we have a Corum thank you all right get us started good afternoon Brandon Barry planner we could pull up the PowerPoint so we're addressing two divisions of the Land Development code today division 20 which is the passor grill what will be named The passor Grill historic overlay District currently the passor gril overlay district and division 40 which is the community redevelopment District 8th Avenue this comprises the properties of all of the sorry the zoning of all the properties along 8th Avenue several extending up to 9th and down to 7th Avenues uh community redevelopment District 8th Avenue is the actual zoning of those properties and the division 20 pass Grill overlay district is the overlay on top of what is primarily residential zoning City also has a division that deals specifically with historic preservation this largely addresses designation of properties how historic properties are managed and how additions and and other modifications to structures are handled that is not directly addressed through any of these amendments we have not proposed any changes to division 28 there are minor modifications in division 20 that address a type of administrative or certificate of appropriateness waiver for or certain setback variances in the passor grill overlay but there are no direct changes to the city's historic preservation ordinance so these amendments reflect what's now coming up on a three-year process to better align the district standards with the purpose and intent the passor gr overlay was adopted in 1999 it was majorly amended back in 2017 and the board as well as staff have proposed and worked on these amendments to help better preserve existing Bonafide historic structures develop new structures that are compatible with the area and respect the unique pre- zoning character of passag gril the intented these amendments are to provide a more robust design standards with qualified review by a city architect or by staff led by a guide book and prevent unfettered lot consolidation that does not respect historic layout and character so looking at the passor gril overlay District division 20 some of the major changes include building to the overlay is now a requirement in the code for lots of a certain size the applicant has the ability to build to either the underlying the standard Suburban zoning District or to the overlay which allows for reduced setbacks and some other benefits in exchange for building to a design that respects the massing and scale of the district building to the overlay would now be a requirement that tends to be the option that most developers undertake now anyway but it would be a requirement this strengthens standards for design review um design standards would need to be identified on plans there would be an architect review for those who choose to move forward with a design that is not Guided by the guide book which is something that we're working on that'll be forthcoming and that'll be prepared for when we bring this back for the final readings um for those who Des decide to design outside of the guide book there would be an architect review of those plans um there would be a requirement for driveway access to be in the rear of properties when they AB an Alleyway of 15 ft or greater um currently access is owed from any Zone there is a requirement that structures be set a certain distance from the front property line so there may not be actual parking on the exterior of the building but um we do currently allow for driveways to be established in the front of structures the concern with that is we are losing a lot of our Alleyway parking because of that property owners are choosing to develop lots and run driveways off the front of the lot so the historic board and staff have discussed a requirement for driveways to be set in the rear of the structure when the alleyway is greater than 15 ft any kind of lot consolidation or subdivision would require historic preservation Board review this is currently a requirement for City commission review it would come forward to the historic board for recommendation prior to proceeding to City commission and this would prevent any kind of accessory structure from being established in the front yard we currently have what is called an accessory structure envelope it does prevent or it does require certain front setbacks for accessory structures but it doesn't require actually placing them behind the residents um this would require that based on both the required front setbacks of the building types as well as just an explicit requirment for them to be set behind the home looking at the crd 8th Avenue um this would include design standard implementation similar to The passor Grill overlay there are currently no design standards on 8th Avenue for new development um we have several locally designated historic structures a handful that are potentially eligible for national designation we want to ensure that the design standards for new development reflect and respect the character of 8th Avenue um we are not changing the maximum height for the Avenue uh from what is currently 35 ft but we are clarifying that any structure built with an atg grade flood proofed bottom floor that 35 ft would start from grade for those structures that are elevated where the first habitable floor is elevated above grade um 35 ft would still start at the base flood elevation as it does for commercial properties elsewhere in the city however um there would be a requirement that above that 35 ft above grade that top floor step back a handful of feet just to provide some consistency in the Avenue there would be a requirement for screening of rooftop mechanical equipment that is currently in place in passor Grill it would be implemented on 8th Avenue as well all new development would go through design review the same as the pass Grill overlay and there would be a new maximum building length of 80 ft that's to respect the historic layout of the crd 8th Avenue District to ensure that structures respect that character it prevents any kind of developer coming in and purchasing multiple properties and developing a building that that doesn't respect that character and the historic preservation board would also review any loot consolidation that occurs on 8th Avenue this was brought to the planning board back in September um they made some great recommendations most of the modifications were related to grammar and clarification we added definitions for base flood elevation design flood elevation and required design flood elevation added guidelines for setbacks relative to adjacent properties specifically for properties that are eligible for certificate of appropriateness waiver for setbacks removed the common yard landscaping standards as an allowable secondary Frontage allowed for on street parking to count toward required parking only when it is available without reservation the city currently allows for the passer Grill overlay on The Limited commercial lots that are available counting parking within a 500t radius we wanted to make sure that that pertains only to um metered parking and other parking that's available to the general public that it doesn't count um Avenue parking other that's that's limited solely to Residents heighten the crde EA is to be measured from grade when the first floor is constructed atg grade as mentioned previously and this provides some cleanup and relocation language for balconies Marquees are arcade some of those other features that are specific to 8th Avenue so that is all staff has we have on teams our consultant Tera alier she's been involved since the start of this process in helping us with this code cleanup she was also responsible for the 2017 overlay amendments uh chair did you have any comments you wanted to make no okay so we really just wanted to bring this forward to get your your general input um if there's anything significant that you feel that staff they're leaving out if there's any major clarifying questions that you have for us like I said this has been a multi-year process it's gone through multiple iterations we will take this back to Historic board after this meeting it'll proceed through the typical channels on the planning board and then for two readings with City commission um we believe it there are a few tweaks and that we talked about with the historic board but it's largely in a in a place that we feel it's ready to move forward if the if the commission does as well okay Commissioners questions comments Holland since this is your District you want to right I I believe most of the boards from my district as well um yeah I've uh I've had I've been following this and uh I've had some conversations with Miss dashel and I've had considerable conversations with the chair uh over the past many months um specific to to what we have here today uh I think just two points of clarification uh first the 35 ft from grade or 35 ft basically above let's say a parking garage is that what we're talking about here something along those lines and effectively at that point the building uh would potentially be 45 ft plus or minus would that be correct based on the flood zone for most of the properties on 8th Avenue I believe it would be more in the range of 40t when you get up to that that height um so if if the the ground level were to be not flood proofed if there were to be an elevation it would allow for that 35 ft to start at base flood elevation but it wouldn't necessarily be the top of the parking garage if the top of the parking garage is 9 feet they would start at 5et above grade and then the habitable floors could be 30 to 31 feet to to compensate so humor me and tell me what you think the tallest building could possibly be there understanding the top floor has to have a 10- foot setback would that be correct that that's correct and that would be particularly for those structures that don't start that measurement at grade so any any elevated structure that obtains that additional 5 feet a top floor would need to be set back 10 ft um I don't I don't have an exact measurement but I would think it would be around 41 ft above grade if someone were to take advantage of that standard okay so not 45 but closer to 40 correct yes you're not certifying that but that's your educated opinion uh and then the other thing and I spoke to the chair about this and you know he may want to jump in uh so 15 foot alleys uh is is that maybe a little wide uh for people to be required to have their parking on the rear of the home as a opposed to a curb cut in the front of the lake um has there been any discussions on something smaller like 12T or anything like that is that feasible plausible or yeah if I can jump in you we we talked about that and and just so everybody understands I don't know how familiar are with P girl and going down there but the oldest section of pass girl like south of 10th or 11th there's parking on both sides of the street and none of the houses had driveway in the front yard forever right because there was alleys everybody parked in the back and used the alleys and that made the front yards nice and clean there wasn't a car park there there was Landscaping you know you had your front porch there that was unobstructed in the last I don't know how many years let's say the last 20 years or so I don't really know but I would guess there might be three or four new houses that have built down there and they've got curb Cuts in front of their house so they have a garage G that face faces the street they got cars that park in the front yard and even more importantly they take away parking on the street which is very well you know we have a problem with that especially in that area so we've kind of felt that we need to be telling people or you need to make it a rule essentially or ordinance that they have if if they're on an alley and not every car every lot is if they're on an alley they need to use that to put their cars in behind the house like the historic nature of F and Grill uh now with that being said houses on the water don't have alleys a lot of houses north of uh what 20th don't have alleys so it's not all the whole place okay um and as you get north of 12 there's parking on one side of the street why they pick which side I don't know so all of those houses that are on the side where there's parking they have to go and use the alleys which makes sense and all the houses on the other side apparently don't have to use their alleys even though they have alleys and they have a bunch of curb Cuts in the front and so a lot of new homes what we're seeing are getting curb Cuts even though they're on alleys uh just last meeting we had a house that's actually on two alleys a north south and an east west but they're building their house with the garages facing the street because they can under the rules we currently have and uh but to go more specifically with Mr M col said most of the alleys are platted at 15 ft so that's good but some are platted like at 10 so if we I think what M Mahan were talking about if we make a rule that says it's 15 feet then if you're on an alley with 10 ft we've basically given someone permission to do a curb cut in front of their house okay 10 ft is plenty wide for a car to get down it's not two-way traffic on an alley uh I think there was some concern about the Turning rate radiuses and we never really kind of got to that point because frankly we picked the 15 ft because that made the most sense the time we we we we looked at or I requested to find out some some of the alley uh widths and that's when we found out that somewhere less than 15 ft I think we did take into consideration some navigational standards as well I think terara shared those with us and that's why we kind of ultimately landed at 15 but but I would request I mean I we can talk about it you know further if we need to a stuff I I think we should make a 10t and this and then just see how that if that really affects things uh because for example the one the one block where I know it's 10 feet the houses on the it's an east west alley and the houses on the north side of that alley uh the new ones all have court curb Cuts all right on the out on the houses on the south side which are all old houses they park behind the house so you can navigate that 10-ft alley and it's been that way historically so I don't think we should be I think we should make it 10t rather than 15 feet um and I and just so I can throw the whole thing out there you know we've had issues with garbage pickup and things of that nature that kind of got put on the back burner with uh the storm we had but uh I think having a more of a requirement to use the alley would spur the city to maintain the alleys much more than they have been in the past because that's been a continuous problem so if we're suggesting that people really need to utilize those alleys and again I go back to ASL was platted as a prear island okay and so the alleys were put in there for a purpose to put everything in the back there and if we want to maintain the historical look that's a a key feature so I think that's very important on the and uh you we kind of got away with that away from that of course and then as a result Ali starts suffering because people aren't using that much they get overgrown they aren't maintained etc etc so so I do think that uh changing it to this and making a requirement will will uplift the whole Community as and not just the people that are on the I'm I live down there I don't live on an alley so I'm not you know trying to I take my garbage out in the front yard all that kind of stuff so this isn't a personal thing it's just if you walk those streets and alleys like I have for many many years you recognize that it's an integral part of the historic nature of passeng Grill so that's the long version so is there a reason why um 10 foot couldn't work or and Tera correct me if I'm wrong I think we did kind of settle on 15 feet I think when we talked about 10 ft the only concern was relative to some of the rear setback permissions that we have in the over um it just makes a little bit of a challenge to to navigate a larger car into a garage especially one set 5T from the LA do you can you think of any other concerns that a uh required access from a 10-ft Alleyway would pose good afternoon Terra Sal studio um originally you know the original 15 ft was because that was the predominant Alleyway I I think that you can add the provision of 10 ft but it would have to be reviewed and the turning radius it would have to be per um review of that particular plan it it will be a challenge if you have a garage 5T from the alley to turn into the garage you genuinely you generally you would probably need um another five feet you know I two and a half to five feet for that to for a vehicle to turn into their driveway and then back out that's just a but I think you could also add a footnote that you could review that it was the will of the the decision makers to do that we could we could take a look at how many are left Le than 15 ft too do we know how many are less than 15 ft yeah if we at P overhead we here a map there's a few Alleyways north of here and it's a little bit hard to make out the colors there but uh looking North from 12th um primarily most of the Alleyways are 15 ft um south of that is 18 generally north south it's the east west that would um require that parking from the from the rear If This Were to be implemented reduced down to 10 ft so looking south of 12 the East West alleys so those those Parcels on the on the Avenues um would would need access from the rear of the property instead of the the Avenue side so we're looking at a total of looks like five valys that are and I'm sorry Brandon so are we saying what east west alley do we know are 10 ft or we don't don't really know that uh first up to around 12th I believe um the East West alleys are 10 ft ploted at 10t they may be maintained it more but and if that's the case everyone uses them so it I mean it hasn't really been a problem uh I mean is is there R is now and I will just say this I'm not I realize it's a different world we live in than 100 years ago whatever but you know uh even even I I believe I'm not 100% there's some new houses that still park on the Alley in that area but that's a very you know everyone or they or or those people park in the street which they're allowed to do but that's different than having garage facing the street and so you know uh I I I think what Tera said makes a lot of sense from the standpoint that we can't be draon and just say oh sorry you're on a 10ft lot you can't you you got you can't do that but I do think we should have some consistency and not just set it at 15 feet maybe we say 15 feet if you're less than 15 fet however the language you want to do you can come in front of the uh the store board then the or whatever how want to work it to the commission to see if you can get a variance to do that but it would still put the onus on the property owner to have to try to do that as opposed to us just saying go ahead and do it you know and and I think that would be a much wiser way to go to try to maintain that look because I I because I can tell you right now what what people are going to do and they have been doing on these small Lots is they build max plus and that was part of the reason we're going to talk about getting rid of the choice between the overlay everyone builds the overlay anyway uh pretty much and it's just you know they want people want down to come and want to build every square inch inch they want an amenity that they would have in Apollo Beach or something but it's down in a historic district and so so if we want to maintain that look we have to limit some of that um sure so again what's what's wrong with just saying 15 ft if it's less than 15 ft you have to go before the board of adjustment and request of variance or the historic Point whichever I don't think there's any problem of that if you all think that that that would be that that seems to be the simplest solution most straightforward in that way that gives you the ability to to do a side review or EXA or something else okay I think that encompasses the fact that if you're if you're going to put an alley access on the back that may change your rear yard setbacks for any structures that above that rear property line and fencing too it could make a difference so and and you know I'll say this because I know this is an issue you know people that spend a lot of money on a lot on pass gr when they didn't used to you know 30 years ago a lot of people want a swimming pool you it used to be the golf of Mexico was our swimming pool or whatever okay and so they're on these tiny lots and they want a swimming pool pool and therefore they want to park their cars in the front and all that kind of stuff and and my I think our opinion on that is that's okay if but if you really want that maybe you shouldn't build it in historic district you know that's kind of the give and take if you want the charm and the quaintness well you got to be a little quaint you might have build a detached garage and have the swimming pool in between what whatever right there's there's a lot of options as opposed to just what you'd build in another non-historic spot so yeah I think we seen some on the second floor haven't we what's that so I think we've seen some pools on the second floor uh yeah well yeah I I never seen anybody in them but uh I haven't either but and in the front yards and in the front withy through glass yeah right aquarium yeah I never SE anybody in that either so right okay all right then the other question questions comments if I just might I thing that Mr Mohan was talking about when he's asking Brandon about the 35t from on uh 8th Avenue and I just want in case some of yall don't really know this there's no old structures there that are over two stories high that's the way they built them so they're significantly lower with the exception of the Keystone which is over 50 years old they have a they have at the back they have three stories on the Alley but it's I don't even think it's 30 feet off grade and then there's the hurricane of course which was done more recently but before we had any of these ordinances and that kind of stuff and so our thought process was we want to keep if we want these National historic buildings to still fit in you don't want to have a four story building or whatever next to it of course Brandon I'm going to ask you and I we kind of talked this before but when you talk about and I think you all know that you cannot build a single family res residence in the cdea okay it has to all be commercial at least on the first floor and so I'm trying to think of what would be an example where we would have the ground floor not flood proofed so commercial can be elevated I it would probably be more of an office building I don't know that we would see much in the way of an elevated multifam or a lodging structure um where they elevate for the sake of elevating but what was brought up before potentially parking storage if they choose to use that lower level um that's always an that's always an option um that would be to me that's only the the only practical matter I assume if someone was to build a boutique hotel or something that the first floor could be open parking right so you see into it stuff right MH which you know to me in practicality I don't know if that's going to happen a lot or you know especially with some of the size of those lots so I don't know if they'll we'll really have too many incidences where that might happen there's also the possibility of maybe open seating like Cafe seating underneath the building with the actual restaurant and indoor seating above and that would be kind of neat yeah you know uh because the one challenge we had a little bit about the height on the crd is we've never quite understood and I still don't if you flood proof the first floor and no one can live there and it's not habitable habitable anyway why does that why do you get then get to build on top of that as well you know uh but I think we've kind of addressed that issue of the height by talking about 35 foot from grade which is still remember when we did the set the Drone up there most of those places were what like high 20s or something except for the Berkeley was at over 40 or something and and you know they had there's that whole another issue that didn't exist at the time about uh permission to Bo to build like a rooftop area and I think now that has to come through you the city commission to decide where is before it didn't so I know many residents thinks that you know that place was too high compared to the rest of the area there uh but I think we've built some uh checks and balances on that already that that help so you know that's why we just talk about 35 ft because it's already higher you can certainly build three St stories and 35 ft so okay any other questions or comments you all already have Architectural Review correct you design review design review we we the way it's set up right now in the stat in the ordinances is that we have design shall get design review on homes that are being built under the overlay homes that are not being built over the overlay do not go to us as a matter of the ordinance although Brandon and the city has been giving those to us in the last couple of years so for informational purposes so yes but the design review that we have we've talked we well I think the main things we're we're talking about preparing this uh guide book that will give the builders more uh examples of what we're looking for in a historic way and and not what we're looking for but just what the the existing structures are that that have it and so um I think we'll be able to maybe tighten up some of the new builds to be a little more historic kind of looking than you know modern super modern things I mean Pastor has got a lot of elect eclectic structures down there so it's not a matter of you know uh trying to tell people what they can build necessarily but it does need to retain some semblance of a historic uh District or otherwise we're going to lose that whole aspect of it which is going to be a problem for the city because that's really an attraction I think uh so but the design review what we're suggesting is that we're going to tighten it up a little bit not m not majorly people are still going to be able to build essentially kind of what they want but it's going to put them the builders on a little more notice of what we want and very cleverly I think uh T and Brandon kind of Switched a little bit of they they have to kind of show us why it fits in as opposed to us saying you know you know why it doesn't fit in and and I think with most of these people that we've dealt with a lot of them just don't know you know they just they they built houses in other areas and they come here and they don't really realize there's a little bit of a difference so um to answer your question Miss Robinson yes there is a design review and I think if if we eliminate the choices and I don't know I think you all understand that and only make it under the overlay then everything would come to us naturally anyway as a design review and I would just point out if any of you all have a problem with understanding the the issues of having two choices is there's a couple there one set of houses in particular both new on Gulfway and one was built uh under the uh regular zoning just like it was in any part of St Pete Beach and then the house next to it built a couple years later was built under the overlay and it sticks out maybe five more feet towards the front than the other house so the first house now has no view off their balcony to the to the South because there's a house right there and uh you know and so you're getting that kind of unfairness really and it should always be one you know one thing um and again and another thing we're getting is everyone builds under the overlay because they can build the biggest house possible and that's just the way it's been going and that's going to continue that way so we might as well just kind of accept and make it try to make it more uniform so I mean that I I don't know if any of you had those questions but that's the reason we thought through this to do it in that fashion and I don't know if there's any other areas if people have questions I mean we've spent if you've read it all and you're happy with it then that's fine I me that's great um but a lot of it was just cleaning up kind of confusing language or maybe there's one area where they Define something and then they Define it slightly different at another area and it's really just trying to remove some of the wiggle room that may or may not ever be used by somebody but just just cleans it up yep sounds and otherwise yeah the the the the setbacks and the builds and all that stuff are essentially the same mayor can I ask a question sure um and I apologize for coming in late I honestly have been used to coming in at 4:30 so I do apologize but I did I did read the material and um I did want to follow up with a question about the design since you were talking about it um because even Citywide you know currently we have a lot of homes think of the the dawn B Vista and and any other area if we go into Corey that are locally or wanting to locally designate um and I think of the Dawn the neighborhood where I live almost the same idea we see someone purchase an older home and now there's the biggest thing there ever um you know overshadowing the homes next to it and I think I I came and gave a three minute at one of your meetings about a a historic home that that was in essentially going to be squashed between two larger homes um but were you all thinking about that in this design that it would would play into everybody not just you know if you're in a and I know in your situation pive RS is deemed historic right um but that all homes have to meet an architectural standard or design standard regardless of whether they're in the overlay or not well we're not empowered on that if you follow what I'm saying we're we're the historic preservation board so we don't really I mean you know that's up to you all for the others other areas I mean there may soon be as you know there's some movement of foot to talk about the doncesar area to be historic and maybe belista there's grants going on that that way uh and that would be great if that happens although I think each one of those is unique in and of itself and different than let's say the the past historic neighbor you know it's a different makeup of things so we'd probably have to have different ideas along that line but uh I mean yeah I mean you know I mean like I said we don't really have the power to look into that um I think at the end of this meeting one of the questions I do have of of you folks is is if you all have any areas or ways you'd like us to start looking to change things or move forward or move backward in historic district and and and try to you know do some different things I mean people all the time are saying like you know well Key West you can't even tear down a historic house or Charleston you can't even do that and it's like you know I think it's a bridge too far right now but I mean there's all that stuff's out there and uh this is a baby step really I I think what we're doing today and I say it because it's an opportunity you know you didn't have let's say the opportunity at the beginning when you developed the overlay you know maybe and maybe I'm wrong maybe some of you were were there in that process but um Bel Vista and the dawn are in the process right they're they just had the final report for that survey and a lot of the residents at least in the Don and actually in belis have asked and we had a meeting I think it was two weeks ago I can't remember but residents were asking those who are looking for information for locally designation well what standard do we follow like what does it mean now I'm locally designated right and I want to change something what guidelines do I follow and what we said at the meeting was that they're going to look at section I think we said 20 I think right is that what we said something to that yeah this is 20 right so but does that apply to the dawn to B Vista to Corey or any 50 year old structure in the city of St Pete Beach um because they're asking now so if they're asking now we should be ready yes to answer them right as opposed to them saying well well I think I guess this is what I think right no you you make an excellent point because I mean since the storm as you know we've well you don't mean know that we've probably locally designated what 40 50 houses or something like that and almost entirely they're in Pastor girl there's some Thea Blanca there's a couple L Don but I know there's more than I know there's 50-year-old homes that got damaged out in other areas of St Pete Beach and no one's come in to do that uh they might not know because they have bad information or or what think they honestly don't know because we asked at the meeting what happens Nikki okay I I think we haven't really talked about this default would be okay yes you can be historically designated because you're if if you meet the qualifications which primarily is 50 years okay but not entirely and then potentially you could get a FEMA variance but I think then you would the question you have I think is then could you build an addition on that 50-year-old house that looked like a modern Edition which so on the historic uh overlay you cannot do that so we really don't have and what character does it mean right what's the name like you said earlier P Grill is different from the dawn from B Vista from Corey from you know North Beach and there's nothing written right so what's that Char yeah I don't think we've really uh that's really come up I mean that's make an excellent point we haven't really looked at it in that way but it's coming up because it's at they asking I can get that and we'd have to figure out a way but conceivably this is the passor gr historic overlay District that means there could be a Don CeSar historic overlay District correct a historic overlay District Etc and they would be developed to meet the needs of that particular neighborhood and the character of that neighborhood it's not it's not a one- siiz fits all no that's what we'd be having to develop at this point because AB steps have just started in donces are in B Vista in particular you've got background here so trying to get one model working this model starts to work or we find out where the flaws in this model then we know how to apply it as the opportunities come forward for the others historic districts and they're being developed yeah but yeah with that being said you don't have to be a historic district I think that's a misconception you don't have to be an historic district to be designated historic um but you know the we talked about this earlier I think and I I just share this because it's it's a problem that seems It's kind of come up where there seems to be a reticence of a lot of people to get historically designated or do they think there's some sort of downsides to it or they can't sell their or property or something like that or get insurance yeah yeah well I don't I don't even want to enter that a that's aren I know nothing about and don't want to start with but um you know those people that that we were talking about this earlier about how if you if you have a home older historic home that you've done a FEMA variance on so it's maintained its historic look and when you sell that home it gets sold like like that to the person I've not bought a house it's a historic house with a f of variants and if I want to build an addition it's got to stay within the historic aspect of it okay but if you think that out they really if I'm buying a house from somebody that's already historic either I'm going to tear it down because I don't care or I'm going to keep it historic so I don't think you're going to find too many people that are going to say I bought this historic house and now I can't build a modern addition on it you know so so I think the people that are frightened or don't really have the the correct information uh need to get a little more educated on that which we've all been trying to do in a way but just hasn't really happened so um but if you said in Sean said that's a great idea about start looking toward having uh I guess for lack of better order an overlay on these other districts we have we have we even gred we even got any applications for historic homes outside of we have a couple coming through for the Don CeSar we have several um that have expressed interest in other neighborhoods the challenges part of the survey is that we prepare a lot of that historic data for them we have a consultant who's highly qualified to come in and perform those assessments and without that staff has to individually perform those assessments we have one staff member who does them but it's it's uous so um we may see more as we survey those areas and we have that information right if the storm come one month later we might have already taken care of this before that I think this makes for a nice template for you know for other districts to follow or other areas that get designated and like you said if something doesn't work we have the opportunity to change it andove it yeah and I and I think that's part of what we've done here the overlay was put together you know 99 and then in 2017 but you know certain in 99 things were a lot different as far as the property values and who was building down there and things of that nature and so you know we're growing up as far as that goes and we have to amend it a little bit to you know keep up to date so there's nothing wrong with the original way it was done it just it just changed and morphed a little bit that we have to take it into account I think it's a good proposal and um I think we have consensus from the commission okay than may I not interrupt could I get one thing clarified now yeah uh so just for clarification what are we doing with the language on the alleys again from what I wrote down we are going to reduce the amendment to 10 feet we would provide a variance process if they wish to if they have some clear evidence that they need more correct yes thank you thank you Mr can you call it just existing as it exists I mean just cuz there's so many of them or are you going to call the 10t a minimum we we could say as it exists I believe based on our analysis we there are no C no Alleyways that are platted at less than 10 feet I believe they're all at least 10 feet but we'll we'll clarify that and it could just be existing platted Alleyways would be that makes it easy you don't have to put a number in there and esses on them to check it good idea okay thank you thank you Brandon okay so now do we need to talk about division 40 or is everybody happy with that or got questions about that about the CR DEA and I would just say that one of the things we've done we beefed up the language and a lot of the purposes and intent and stuff so it's pretty clear that there's a you know quite a historic override on a lot of this but uh I don't think that we segregated our questions by section I think we were just firing off questions so I think that's fine only going to say a crd is not in the overlay so a whole different zoning thing okay I will be quiet you have another hour and 16 minutes so we can take all the time you want you all don't have questions about stuff I mean I don't poke the be yeah I know no just it's it's a look it's a good proposal I mean we've spent a lot of time on it um so I mean we all have but you particularly have I think this is our third meeting on this uh just in since I've been in office in the last two years uh we've had conversations before and I think it's time to just move this thing forward and get it ped um I think there's now is a time to do got a lot of opportunities I think down in passor girl where people are going to want to rebuild uh so I think the sooner we get this out uh the better so that we make sure anything that's new that gets built uh does follow the new guidelines so that we have some uniformity and consistency we can start working on the uh draft where B Vista and hiset I think if um you all want to get together with commissioner res Niki I think that's oh yeah you guys have it yeah so I can write it but I mean I and I brought it up because it it people are asking and we did have people at this meeting say I mean they're going to come they think they're coming to you I think that's the process of they want to add like you said in addition whether it's lateral or what or whatever they got to come to you right once they're locally designated they got to present to you now when when they ask well what standard do we meet right do you know how to answer that question so that's our guidelines already in place for that like what an addition on this style property should look like it's most people think it has to look exactly like the house that exists there and it's opposite of that so it has to be clearly a new addition to the house so a lot of things are already Place L Rosetti is a great guide Brandon's a great guide when someone initially comes into the office and meets with staff then they they're not sent to Us blind not knowing what what their recommendations are and if I may also just Pigg you back on that and thank you all for your time today but I think one thing that we as a board have heard consistently and repeatedly is what wonderful assets Brandon Kristen Lynn they have all every person that's come before us has just said how wonderful they are and so we're just grateful to have a great kind of supporting team that goes back and does all the work and then we just get to sit there and hear it out it's nice I will piggy back on that because it it is true and even with everything going on with um the hurricanes and people wanting to locally designate they've all gave great Kudos and to the board they were they were terrified to come before you and then they were pleasant SE well they thought they would be denied you know so that you know they they they thought it wasn't going to be easy but with the help of the staff and then coming before you I've only heard compliments from of all what you've all done so thanks yeah and I think our design guide book it's going to be a nice little picture book to give people an idea of what they're what they're looking at what they want to continue to look at and see it's going to be really helpful they did one in 2015 that was really good but they never Incorporated it into the ordinance and so a lot of the heavy lifting really done already so it exists out there if youall want to check it out but uh so yeah the the city's been very helpful in the last couple years in particular um one thing I since if we're just kind of wrapping up here when I asked earlier about there's any directions or you think we might want to go and M Riki just call you Betty but I don't really know you so I I won't say what I told you um is is one of the things and I don't know if yall are aware this you probably are but the historic district you know is everything south of 32nd Avenue okay uh on passag grill yet there are areas that are not in the historic district some zones are still mostly commercial zones are still zoned like they existed outside the historic district and I think that's an area we're going to need to explore because even if we get it all right that all the houses look old and fits in the neighborhood if we have some massive commercial structure not even massive but commercial structures if people ever get interested in that that that don't fit into the scale or the size then that'll ultimately be a problem so I think that that's a way we've talked about it already but we didn't want to bring out too much uh in this baby step so and we have some that were commercial uses and have changed to residential use and because they're outs side of the district kind of a little carve out they didn't come before the board for review so even though they're now resal they were in the dawn subdivision right yeah I know which ones you're talking about all right is there anything further in that case we are adjourned excellent thank you all