I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Uh, clerk roll call.
>> Member Thompson >> here. >> Vice Chair Kurszman >> here. >> Member Looney >> here. >> Member Rothenberger >> here. >> Chair Stevens >> here. >> We have a quorum. >> Okay. Next, we'll go to approval of the agenda. Does anyone have any amendments
to the agenda? >> No, I do not have any. >> No, >> I do. Okay, >> I have I have several. First, I want to just I'll just start with the things that I want to clarify. For instance,
for uh the items for discussion, events on the beach, I want to make sure that that includes discussing specific events such as the country thunder, the u uh the mothball event uh and then even the processes that we hear about events
before they happen. So, that whole discussion about events. Then for the sign discussion, signs on the beach, I want to make sure that that really, you know, I don't want to find out that I was too far out of the edges. I want to discuss uh, you know, the poles, the
rebar, the rights, uh, the ordinance, uh, various discussions about the signs for public beach access points. Item C, it says beach access point signage. So, I would want to maybe clarify or maybe
remove the word sign signage because I have a number of things that relate to public beach access points including signage. Um then, uh for additions to the agenda, so that's really the only except for clarification, I wanted to
remove the word signage um from the city public beach. Then for um actual items to discuss, uh I'd like to add um beach ordinance next steps. Um and
uh follow up on the discussion we had last time with dune fencing or turtle fencing or where we're going to go with that that discussion. Uh and then uh on page five of our minutes, it says the attorney will incorporate the beach revenue discussion with staff. So, I'd
like to make an item to discuss beach revenue, which would be to follow up on that, but also I've got some new information about beach revenue, but not from the standpoint of necessarily raising money only, but as a way to help um you know, help manage the the beach uh itself, you know, because it's it's a
sword or a shield. Um and at the last meeting uh we discussed uh chairman Thompson or I'm sorry member Thompson had discussed uh uh keeping us informed. So I want to talk about um how the beach stewardship gets informed informed about
events you know what's our channel when do we get involved and our and our charter. Um uh I also uh uh want to understand for a beach um uh maintenance ride along. How do we get to do that?
>> Say that one again. >> Beach maintenance ride along. >> I'm sorry. Yeah, there I read in the minutes that uh uh Chairman Stevens went on a beach maintenance ride along. >> A ride along. Okay. >> Like about how you get to do that, what that what that involves. >> Um >> I can make it easy. You just ask.
>> Okay. What's up? >> Reach out. reach out to Camden and schedule it and >> I don't know if we need to have a big discussion about it, but >> yeah, it just it was just >> we'll make you sign a disclaimer. >> Um, >> old harmless >> and then and then how we get things on the agenda because uh we we had a
process we were going to be asked ahead of time for what topics like a week or two ahead of time and I was actually preparing mine and and then the announcement came out like eight days before the the meeting. yet, you know, for for city commission, you know, you get like three days. So, I was just, you
know, and we had nothing to read really. So, it wasn't like we needed time to to see it. So, I just want to talk about the process for getting topics on the agenda. >> That's it for me. >> So, on uh AB and C and it kind of goes
into your last I proactively emailed Brian. Yeah, it was about two >> two weeks before the meeting and that's how A, B, and C >> got on because this came for me. Yeah, >> I was proactive. >> Um, signage is a specific item. So, I
don't want to remove signage. >> You mean B? >> No. C. >> Oh. Oh, so this >> you you asked to remove the word signage. >> All right. No, do it separately. >> If you want, >> we can say beach public access points including signage. >> That's fine. >> Yeah, I think that was what was offered. >> I had a very specific thing.
>> Yeah, sure. um to def uh that I have for tax and beach. I contend again this is not the right forum to talk about revenue for the beach. Um that's not in our purview. I do agree that it's an
interesting topic and I would encourage you to reach out I would encourage anybody interested in that to reach out to the finance committee. But but that's I would you know I would say that's not appropriate. >> Let's discuss that. Let's discuss that because that wasn't what I was saying
about it. It's saying it's a sword to help address other issues. >> I agree with John. It's not it's this isn't where that should take place. >> Which John? Yeah. But I'm not I'm not discussing the mechanism. I'm discussing the the method of people claiming they
have ownership rights and they can put signs in the dirt and the beach and they can do all these things on the beach and they're not even paying taxes. That's representation without taxation. >> Would that not be included in the signs in the beach conversation? >> It's not just about signs. It's about chair people. People are using chairs as
signs in other parts of the beach now. >> You've increased signs on the beach to include posts and other things already. So I just again the way you framed it tax and revenue and those types of things should be at the finance
committee where they will then make recommendations to the commission not us that's me we can >> we can vote on >> yeah I think we should just talk about it briefly and then we would understand >> I I would uh if I was to make the first
motion I would make it as amended except for that subject but that's me, but I would uh open it up to any other comments before I ask for a motion. >> John, do you feel like it's more like a customary you speech? Yeah, it's it's
it's basically talking about the way I found documents that help explain riparian rights in the state and other things that relate and the riparian rights actually say that if you from the days of Spain own the land under the
under under the water, you actually do have control, but you would pay taxes on it. So what I'm contending is if you would have to pay tax on the land under the water because you act like it's yours, you certainly would have to pay for the the tax the pay tax on the land
under the sand under the dry sand. So it's a it's a discussion not about taxation itself, but the way that we're treating these areas inconsistently with the tax formula today. That's not to raise taxes, it's to recognize the
issue. And our charter is also to uh make recommendations regarding protecting the public beach. And one of the ways you protect is faculty financially. So if you're not paying a a BT if you're paying a BTR of $20 for all
of your chairs when the when the actual BTR doesn't say per chair or per property, those kind of issues are the carrot or the stick for how many chairs are going to cover our public beach. So that's it's it's part of that
discussion, but you know, I'm giving it away while I'm trying to discuss it here. And I'm the point is not to discuss it now. It's to discuss it when we get to the agenda item. >> If you're afraid to hear what I have to say, you can defer it. >> I'm confused. >> And we'll clarify later. >> Clearly. Excuse.
>> Sorry. >> I think what you're trying to get to is who has rights to the property. Is that what you're >> that the taxation >> taxation and revenue is part of the discussion for how you protect a public
a a piece of property. You know, if if the taxes are a certain rate, somebody may be more hesitant to say this is mine. If they have a liability, they're more hesitant to say this is mine. So, it's just it's just a discussion about some things I learned in the state statutes that I think people should
hear. It's it's not it's not a it's not getting into the finance committee's recommendation, but in fact, we were told in the last meeting that the mayor that the attorney would be uh discussing some of the things about taxation regarding the beach, and I want to hear
the input back on what happened as well. >> So, I'm going to ask for a does anybody have a motion on the agenda? I'll make a motion to uh in include the items that I mentioned or if we have to
strike anything that the end of the meeting like we do in the city commission each uh commissioner or each representative just you know talks a little bit about things that are of importance in their area. >> Do I have a second on that?
Without a second, it fails. >> May I have a let's have another discussion. Um, >> any anyone would like to discuss how they would like to move forward? >> I did forget one other thing, >> sir. Okay. We've I've opened it up the
floor to others. >> Oh, I didn't know it was exclusive of me. >> I'm trying to give others an opportunity as you've you've been given. >> I think the agenda stands is fine. The only thing I would add is just a discuss in regards to the procedures, policies
for clearing out the beach prior to a storm coming in. The next meeting we have is going to be >> what's it August? So, you're asking for an additional item of >> I would just personally like to know a
quick review of what happens generally speaking to the the beach chairs, all the stuff on the sand when there's a forecast that shows we might have a storm coming in what that process
looks like. >> Do you have any I'm I'm building up for another motion. I feel like we have so many things that that all my things fall under one of the previously mentioned items.
>> I'd be interested in what Bill was talking about. Definitely. >> So, can I have a another motion for the agenda of what should be included for um the conversation? >> Let me know what else. Uh, I'd make a
motion that we uh add item for discussion item D. Uh, discussion regarding uh beach equipment clearing and evacuation prior to a storm. >> So, ABC D. Yours. That would be
>> Yes, sir. >> Do I have a second? >> I'll second that. >> Roll call. >> No discussion. >> Member Thompson would like a discussion. Sure. Open it up. >> I mean, because um Originally I included other items and there was a concern
about taxation. Um so I was just uh confused why we were excluding all the other things besides taxation that I raised um to to cover on the >> motion the motion has been given that we
would have an ABC and now D. It has been motioned and seconded. Now it's up for a vote for let me be the motion is events on the beach signs on the beach public beach access signage uh and uh beach
clearing is the current motion for the agenda. >> So not like even the word including signage as the attorney had uh suggested. >> I I'm going off of what he he said he was fine with the agenda and that that has been >> okay >> like that. Any other discussion?
>> Yes, someone um wrote in that they were very concerned about uh as they swim the beach that and this was a >> point of order. We are discussing >> this this this existing motion which has
been uh made and seconded. We're not at the point of adding at this time net new. >> Well, why wouldn't we? That's part of this discussion is that it's miss what it's missing. I'll get there. Is there any other items that we want to consider
before we take a final vote? >> Yes. >> I'm fine if we want to add in a conversation about where the beach ordinance is. I don't think we have staff here to give us an update or that was added as a where's that stand?
Each limits Dan, >> that's good. I think that's a good one. >> And then back to you, sir. the ones I would include the ones that I mentioned before uh such as uh how future events
are discussed uh about how um you know the the action plan is and the things that I listed previously except for the taxation and adding fishing because someone reported in social media that she swims the
length of the beach uh and is getting tangled in fishing lines. Maybe we could put some of those things in like general discussion. >> That's what I asked for. >> So why don't we add we got a A B C D whatever E or F would be the final agenda item would be just a general discussion by member.
>> That would be fine. >> Are you amending your your motion? >> Yes, sir. >> Could you let's uh do it one more time so we're all clear. Be specific on ABCD. >> Um so I move to add agenda item five.
Move to amend. >> I think it's move to amend. >> Move to amend. Um agenda item 5D, which would address how the beach equipment is
cleared and evacuated from the beach areas prior to a storm. Um, and I believe Natalie had uh something >> an update on where the beach ordinance sits currently.
>> Okay. And and that would be E and then F would be general comments by member. >> City clerk. Just a question on procedure. We have a motion to amend the amendment.
Do we do need a first and second or do we need a second to that? >> Yes, please. >> Yes. So, do we have a second of that? >> A second. >> Discussion. >> Roll call. >> Thompson. >> Yes.
>> Vice Chair Kurszman. >> Yes. >> Member Looney. >> Yes. >> Member Rothenberger. >> Yes. >> Chair Stevens? >> Yes. >> Motion carries. >> Great. Cool. Uh, all right. Next is
a motion to approve the May 20, 2026 agenda. Uh, no, we already did that one. >> No. >> Uh, we just approved the agenda. >> So, now audience comments. Uh, seeing no one here. We're okay.
>> They're standing in line. >> Yes. >> They're at the beach. Yeah. >> So, now I need an approval of the minutes. Uh, any comments on the minutes? >> I have some, but I'll let someone else go first.
Um, okay. Uh, page four, it mentioned the clerk forward a recent article and information about um the beach and and part of the meeting and and it's in part of the meeting record. I don't recall receiving that. So I don't know whether
it's an issue with the and I don't remember the comment. So I don't know if it's an issue with the minutes or just I forgot something that was so many months ago. >> But >> where where was that in the >> on page four? >> I see four. I'm just >> on page four. mentioned that there was
uh something in the sometimes we get a print out in the meeting when we come here but I didn't get it this today but I think I did print it here page four Florida uh uh f uh on on item 5A
uh the decision in an accompanying article were previously forwarded to the clerk for distribution to the committee and are part of the meeting record 5A. So, I just wasn't clear. I don't remember if it was I don't remember the statement and I also don't remember I
know I've read these articles, but I remember the clerk actually forwarding it. So, I just want to make sure that there's clarity on that. >> So, every time you send us an email for this board, the clerk forwards it to all the members and it's in the record.
So for instance, in the last 60 days or whatever, we haven't had any such communications because I haven't received anything. >> I can't say off the top of my head. >> Uh and I just didn't remember getting that one. >> There was the case study of Walton Beach
for Walton. So that one was sent to us. >> Okay. >> And there was a secondary document I think that was >> sent separately. >> I feel like there were two different >> Yeah, I remember >> that related to customary use. one was I think the actual statute maybe a statute. >> Okay.
>> And then I don't know there were two different documents. >> All right. So I just if if people are comfortable that's fine. So then my my next one would be in E fencing. Um it said that I was that I thought that the current rope markings are often unclear and I just want to clarify that I was
saying or intended to say that it at times there aren't even any ropes marking the dunes. So it wasn't just that I thought that ropes were insufficient. I I felt that the lack of any marking was insufficient and it needed to have ropes or I recommended
slats like in other parts of the the country. So I I I thought I I just want to clarify that I didn't just say ropes aren't good enough because a lot of time we don't have ropes. >> So change it to lack of markings. >> Yes. Okay. >> That would be good.
and and slats as a uh as a potential alternative to ropes. >> Any other modifications to the agenda, the minutes? I >> think that's good. >> Can I have a a motion for the uh
minutes? >> I make a motion of the minutes of November >> February. >> February. So amended February >> February 25th. >> Thank you.
>> I move that we move to uh I move that we approve the minutes of February 25th as amended. >> Do I have a second? >> I thought he already made a motion. >> I'll second that. There we go. Any discussion? >> Roll call, please. >> Member Looney.
>> Uh yes. >> Member Rothenberger. >> Yes. >> Member Thompson. >> Yes. >> Vice Chair Kurszman. >> Yes. Chair Stevens. >> Yes. >> Motion carries. >> Next is election of uh committee officers for this year. Um
do we have any uh nominations? >> I have a motion. >> Okay. >> To retain John Stevens as the chair. >> I'll second that. >> Okay. >> I'm happy to continue to serve. Any dis any discussion on the motion?
>> Roll call, please. >> Member Rothenberger, >> yes. >> Member Thompson, >> yes. >> Vice Chair Kurszman, >> yes. >> Member Looney, >> yes. >> Chair Stevens, >> yes. >> Motion carries. >> You have to vote for yourself. Okay. Now, uh, Vice Chair, do we have any
nominations or interest in vice chair? Not. Well, >> we got to rotate it. >> We're not rotating the sheriff. >> Yeah, we need someone to run the meetings. If uh Mr. Steven, >> you're not here. >> It might be a train wreck. I I I I
planned my I I I planned my travel a year and a half out, so I'm already locked in. >> I I'll do my best. That's all I can do. >> Can I have a a motion, please? >> Yes, definitely make a motion, Bill, to
be um vice chair. >> What are you making a motion? Yes, I think it's good. >> What? H >> Can I have a second? >> You wait. You said make a motion, please. What? Could you make your
motion? >> You could just say like just like a statement like I make a motion to appoint Mr. Thompson to be vice chair. >> I make a motion to uh appoint Bill Thompson as vice chair. >> That's perfect.
>> Very good. Do I >> second that? Uh, Broco, >> member Thompson, >> yes. >> Member Kurszman, >> yes. >> Member Looney, >> yes. >> Member Rothenberger, >> yes. >> Chair Stevens, >> yes. >> Motion carries.
>> All right, moving right along. Um, going to presentations. Uh, Beach Capital improvement projects. I know, uh, Camden was scheduled to be here, but he is caught in the, uh, traffic
accident. in he is not in a traffic accident. He is caught in the traffic from an accident. Um and we have uh Gina here with us. >> Yeah. Hi. >> Thank you for being here. >> I appreciate you allowing me to sit in
for Director Mills um in his absence and I in no way can adequately fill his shoes. Um but uh whatever I cannot fill in I will happily take back to the team and get an answer for you. >> Okay. Um so start with the first one here the upam beach south jetty
um we have submitted a cip project for this this project arose um from panelis county panelis county did an inspection of all of their different structures and when they did that they recommended this
project to the city um if you'd like a copy of that report um we can supply that to you um but this project has been added added to the CIP and we're also going to apply for grants for this project >> and that's to replace the Uppam Beach
South Jetty. >> Yes. >> And that's the Sorry, that's the jetty at the the mouth of Blind Pass. is uh >> that way the north >> the the I'm just looking for a location of the jetting
>> and the blind pass being the body of water between Sunset Beach, Treasure Island and North Stamp Beach. >> I cannot speak to the exact location. >> You said the south jetty. >> The south, >> not the north jetty.
>> It's the south jetty up the beach. >> Yeah, it' be the St. PE beach side of the water where there's rip wrap and >> my understanding right now there's a some sort of sheet wall there. Yeah. >> That is really not in good condition. >> Ju I just point of clarification. It's
not the the the groins for the the sand erosion. It's the it's the barrier between the the dry land and the water is what I'm >> I believe that to be true. In my ride along, we saw
>> when they said jetty, I initially thought something sticking out in the water. >> No, my understanding is it's some sort of wall. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. >> There's a seaw wall and then there's this old old bad shape >> and it's definitely it's a hazard. They place signs of
>> Yeah. I mean, you could slice your foot open on on the rocks and it's bad. Yeah. >> So, that's the north end of beach then you're referring to. >> Yes. >> By the secret garden. >> Yes. By the way. Exactly. But what she read was the south end. >> I guess that >> Well, it's on the south side of the water.
>> Yeah. It didn't. Can you repeat the south end of what? >> It's south. It's up beach south jetty. >> Not north jetty. Okay. >> And it says that we've installed warning signs at the jetty due to the hazards
um and the sheet wall corrosion. >> There's the sheet wall. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thank you. >> That'll be a big project. It's Yes. And I encourage you if you're ever out to go take a look at it. Um it's, you know, in my ride along, I was
brought there and they put signs up, but fishermen are going past the signs and if someone falls, they're going to get hurt, cut. It's I mean, it looks like blades of cut or rusted steel all over
the place. It's bad. Is this near where that drainage pipe is that runs from the big building and is eroding the beach or that's that's I thought that was the south. >> Go to the go to the secret garden >> north >> and keep keep going north >> until you hit the south bay
>> and you'll see the the wall there >> until you hit all the rusted metal. >> You'll see rusted >> there. I didn't notice it but >> you can see you can see it on Google Earth the show corated steel wall. >> It's in bad shape. it is and that's what the report came out and said and I I
think we all knew that anyways but >> you didn't need a report it's bad >> right and I think I think that's true I think the team knew that it needed to be addressed and the report just kind of solidified that so >> great >> um if you'd like a copy of that report we're happy to supply that >> please
>> I would like that >> um the June walkover project we're on to our last walkover at 52nd We're expecting that it'll be done in the next few weeks. Um everything has been done following FD's uh guidance and so we're we're coming along on that. And
as mentioned earlier, there was a beach ride along um that Mr. or Chairman Stevens um went on. So I'm sure that if that's requested, I'm sure that that can be accommodated. My go did the when I first joined this
committee, I did it um with the former beach manager and this time I did it with maintenance. And my goal was uh the maintenance team is out there every uh every day and to get to ride along and have a conversation with them on what
they are actually seeing. Um I'm actually doing this with the Penel I did it with the Penllis County Police or Sheriff's Office when I first joined. I'm doing it again. They're out there every every time. And it's just to get
another perspective of what's going on to help inform me to be on this committee. And that's >> that's got to be a really good perspective, too. I mean, >> and because you hear lots of things on social media, you hear lots of things there and that's all perspective. Um I
just wanted another one. So, I refreshed and did another one. Um, and I encourage um anyone that has the time to do it because um you'll learn a few things, >> but I all I did was send a request um
through it was Camden's office and it was scheduled. >> Cool. >> So, I don't have anything further on that. >> Okay, that's beach activity report. Any >> sure, I'm not sure what's typically covered with this. I I imagine you want
me to read everything to you. >> Um but just for a few highlights, um I know that there was request to have the feature events. Um there's quite a few of the volleyball association, open swim, um the mind travel, um silent
concerts, um talking about the sheriff's office report, I know there was a request to have a little bit more detail about understanding where the different offenses are happening. You can certainly see when spring break hits. Um, so I'm happy to answer any other
questions you have about this or if there's any other items you request for it in the future, I'd be happy to make sure those are included. >> Yes. Um, I'd like to add to that. Thank you for asking. Um, one of the things that we've talked about is being informed about things happening. when I
go back even to the prior report and the and the report before that um country thunder for instance was never mentioned. Now the application came in in November to the city. So that we never heard about it even in our
February meeting. I I think was a uh something that we would want to recognize as the kind of thing that we do want to hear about that we do want to hear about not just what's been approved but frankly what's been applied for I
think is a more important criteria. If I may, that was in the attention of events on the beach when I added to. I couldn't agree more. The the country thunder was kind of the motivator for for this. And we can talk about that as
well when we get to that part of the >> It's still all the thunder. >> Yeah. I I mean, this is called Beach Activity Report 2026 quarter 1. It's not. Um we I really don't care as much about quarter 1. Um so the May 20th one says quarter one. is, you know, Camd's
uh document, but I really think we ought to be talking about quarter that we're in or, you know, things that are pending, not just a history. >> Okay. Any other questions for beach activity report?
>> I have a comment. I don't I don't know if this is accurate. I know going back to country thunder, I feel like what John is saying is we would like to know if a permit has triggered a D permit. So if something is being planned or they're
having to get a permit from environmental protection, I think that's where we are the most concerned. So knowing that something's been applied for so that we can have a special meeting if we need to something like that where we can kind of throw in some
thoughts, ideas, concerns. I think that would be important. Is that correct to say like if if D is triggered that's >> that would be one of the mechanisms. I think that's a great addition, >> but to add clarity, you know, that would be a great criteria, but we knew I mean, they know if they get an application for
country thunder 10,000 people, maybe the beach committee might want to hear about it. >> That's I just couldn't agree and I fully agree. I think that gets us right on to a >> job. Yeah, >> I couldn't agree more. everything we're all saying in that in my mind you know
talking about events in the beach broadly we'll get into criteras >> but back to beach activity report anything else on the report >> okay >> um if I can >> yes please chairman
>> um so for my clarity what you're looking for is the future special events to also include something that when they're applied for when it's perhaps a permit is pulled from the city or from FD
perhaps both. That is the kind of information you would like added in the future special events. >> Yes. And and to clarify to make it even easier if you look at at the actual powers and duties of this committee item it only very simple one is we have meetings. The other is that we review information about nourishment. And C is
the committee shall evaluate information relating to the preservation and maintenance of the public beaches in St. Pete Beach and make recommendations to the city commission regarding these matters. And this says shall. It doesn't say may. >> So it's saying the committee, it's our
responsibility. And so how could we be evaluating information if we're never given that information? So it's just any information that would go in to see if it's the kind of thing that should be discussed as per as per our charter. I'm just requesting that we get that
information in a timely manner. >> Okay. >> If it's not more clear after uh the next discussion item on how that should be because I think we're going to get in the meat there um or have a process to get into it. If there's any um any
questions you have, please bring them up. Okay. >> Any others? Can we close that one? So, let's go to U 5A events on the beach. And I brought this up um or I asked this
to be included on the agenda to discuss all of what we just talked about. But uh my thinking was there was a lot of confusion, a lot of misinformation, a
lot of of everything when it be when country thunder came. And I thought it might be good for us to step back and um at the end of this conversation, I would ask or think we should ask the
city to come back to us with a presentation, a formal presentation to discuss events on the beach, the process of the different types of events on the beach, the process for approval, and the
um criteria criteria for each type of event for us to consider. And if we have modifications to that criteria or suggestions to process, we may give those suggestions to the city andor the
commission on moving on how to move forward. >> Within that conversation, we would have, you know, for these type of events, a special meeting of beach stewardship should be called. uh we I think we would
get to that there but to give the city u a chance to step back look at you know and I'm saying beach with a capital B meaning both public beach and private property beach um permits like wedding
permits and special event permits and events that are happening that don't require permits right so a broader a broader conversation for us and have the city step back and, you know, how's it working now? You know, start with, you
know, I'm an engineer. You know, get to a a known state. How's it working now? And then we can have a discussion on what we think is working and what is that we might have recommendations to make even better. So that was my intent
on bringing uh uh events on the beach and my ultimate goal was to as a committee we would request to staff to come back and work you know be at a the next meeting or a special meeting. I
would leave it up to staff on how they would want to choose to to do this is to come back and let us have a really good working uh meeting with that. So, oh that's that's I just wanted to kick that off. >> Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
>> I I'd be curious. I mean, obviously our are our uh the city commission as the one that has the strength in any decision and we're an advisory committee in effect. I'd be curious to hear what people thought about some of these events, but I mean it's not the real agenda right now. I mean, we have a lot
of time, maybe later. Um, you know, I wonder if we would have recommended, for instance, country thunder or we have been fighting against it. Um, I I spoke on the record with my own personal opinion at city commission meetings. Um, but I think it's important to um, you
know, figure out how what the proper flow would might have been. >> Obviously, the country thunder um, topic raised a lot of interest. um it created a lot of discussion. Whatever we can do to prevent that from
happening again, I think is a good thing. >> The discussion >> I think you know an understanding of the process, who hears what when it's decided, who has the say and who doesn't, >> right?
>> Those at a high level those those kinds of things. >> Thank you. >> Agreed. I think There'd have to be some trigger. Hey, this is a obviously the country thing was big, but I don't think you'd want to
get in the weeds with every wedding. I mean, you'd have to draw a line somewhere because a lot of it is working right now just fine. And uh some of the bigger stuff we should probably be uh looking at definitely.
Um, I think for me, I'm often worried, there's so much happening on the beach, I'm often worried that things happen and maybe they haven't gone through the right steps. Um, I think it was last week, one of the hotels had set up for a
special event and they had rope and post set like out on the beach like past the coast of construction. It was perpendicular to the water, so it was coming out towards the water. And I'm looking at it thinking, surely everything's been, you know, how long is this going to be there? I didn't know
anything about it until I saw it. It was out for a few days. So, I emailed staff and got a response back that it was a special event and they should be removed. It was I think they're supposed to be there for like two or three days and they they did come down. It was probably maybe three or four days before they were gone. I think things like that
I immediately am like, oh, have they been approved for this? You know, is what is this impact? How long is this going to be here? Because we are in turtle season. So, I hate to always think that, you know, maybe this wasn't approved or maybe someone didn't ask, but you know, everything had apparently
it was it was well known that this event was happening, but we didn't know. So, I don't know. I think I'm just get a little bit kind of like, you know, how long is this going to be there kind of a situation, but >> it's things like that. >> It's interesting that are finished. >> Yeah. um
FLD guidelines for CCCL. You're not allowed putting up a rope and post fence during turtle season. >> So, I mean that's >> you are or not. >> You are not you're not allowed having heavy machinery without a permit anytime. You're not allowed to put up a rope and post fence without a permit at
any time or you have to have you have to have a permit and you're not allowed putting up any structure during terminal season. I I know that because I do a lot of work with dune savers. So that's where >> they did follow the rope and post guidelines of seven feet and the rope was up
>> three feet. >> So I was like, "Okay, they're actually following the turtle guidelines." But then I, you know, I missed the piece about that regardless. It shouldn't be there anyway. But yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But there were also a million other things on the beach that were much more turtle unfriendly than the rope and
post actually. So that's the concern I have. So, uh, >> in the in the same vein, excuse me, moving from the past to the future, right? Um, fireworks is right around the corner
and >> maybe they just said with the drought. >> Yeah, >> it may not be approved. I don't know. So there same and then personal fireworks on the beach >> are not allowed.
>> Last year we had signage on the causeway bridge. >> Be nice to kind of have a report as to what we're going to be doing this year. Best practices from last year. What we learned worked and what we didn't do that we should have. and just not a lot
of detail, but just a quick review of the planning. Here's what's going to be happening awareness. >> July 4th, >> excuse me. Yeah, >> just the week before and the week after. >> What's that? >> Sometimes the fireworks are for about a week before the week after
>> and then clean up after. Were you saying this when you mentioned signage uh you know at the at the bridge what did that signage say and was it a good thing or a bad thing? >> So in the past they've had that the black skimmers were nesting. We've had signage saying black skimmer nesting and
I think it maybe went on to say something about no fireworks or something >> no booze on the beach. >> Yeah, that's what I remember. I just wanted to get it out there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What you referring to. Thank you. But, you know, perhaps a request to staff is and it could be an email or if
a special meeting, but >> may I say July 4th, >> excuse me. >> I'm not trying to create work for anybody. I just think it'd be it'd be >> this is the time to think about it. >> Right. Right. >> What What is >> again when we next time we meet, it's going to be in our
>> past unless we choose to have a special meeting about it. But the July 4th season, you know, how how are we planning for uh the beach and managing the beach and uh
enforcement on the beach? Because if I remember, two years ago when those were up, they had special enforcement out watching, keeping people out of dunes. That was also on the sign. >> Yeah, I think awareness and presence from, you know, the folks that do that
is It's it's a deterrence and it's a safety thing. I mean, I I know years ago I walked the beach during the 4th of July and I got hit in the back of head with a bottle rocket. I mean, >> wow. >> That's kind of odd, but it happened. >> Ouch. Wow. What have you said? >> Didn't kill me, you know? It was like,
oh, what was that? >> Explode. >> So, um, yeah, there's there's, you all know, I mean, what the beach is like during Fourth of July. parking and people and fireworks and picnics and drinking and >> right
>> rebel rousing and ra >> but I you know last year when I saw that that traffic sign >> say and it was the black skimmers and I was saying this is this is a good message. >> Well I know there was a meeting Monday night preparing volunteers for a 250 celebration. I don't know what those dates are and I don't know if it
encompasses the beach at all. Yeah, >> I did not go to the meeting, but >> I don't know if that somehow is going to be anything on the beach. >> So, I I think what we're pointing out because the item that's in the agenda is events on the beach is that these are the kind of events we want to hear about
ahead of time, not afterwards. These because obviously these are the kind of things of concern. So maybe we make a motion that we because we we've had this discussion for multiple years about being informed of things. I mean being informed of
conditional use applications, so many different things. That's not an event on the beach, but this that it's that notification issue. If if we're in this job, shouldn't it be because we care about these kind of issues and and and someone maybe even cares about what we think? and and that's all we're getting
at. And the event is just another example. >> Do we need a motion to ask staff to come back and do a formal uh session with us? >> You can make a motion to make a recommendation to the city council to do something or you could make a motion to
have staff bring something to you by email or to set up a special meeting or whatever your pleasure is. I think right now the next meeting is in August, which would be after the Fourth of July season.
>> Is is one person in charge on the staff as far as events on the beach or is that kind of more of a group? >> I don't think so. Right. >> That's the group effort >> things out. It's multi-ep departmental I believe. >> Yeah. Okay. So, it's not just a one
person contact. >> We have code enforcement as well. That's I'm sorry. >> You were going to say >> and resident services. >> Maybe we should make a motion. The city should hire an events coordinator that communicates with us. >> Whatever the person we want to have a
special meeting. >> Yeah. >> Or do we want to have them, you know, at the next >> I think it'd be appropriate just to have some communication in an email. It's like a bullet points like here's what we're doing. Here's who's doing what? I mean, the the sign that goes on the road
that flashes the that's there's got to be a lot behind. Okay, what message do we make? How do we power it? Where do we put it? What hours? Do we need a permit from the county or this or the state or you know, there's a myriad of things that get involved in just that one sign.
And then you've got enforcement and the sheriff's office and ordinance. bifurcate, right? So, we have the events on the beach conversation, but then we have fourth of July season, which you
could call an event, but we have interest. >> It's kind of like spring break. You know, staff knows it's coming and they know what they did last year, >> so they're going to do it again. May I suggest we do a motion that uh they
u communicate to us via email their plan their planning for the July 4th season and how they manage the act the known act known and unknown activities coming >> so moved
>> and if and if we don't and if anyone um sees that and is not satisfied um you can communicate through the clerk and ask for a special meeting that we would get together and dig into that. >> So that's
I'm just thinking out loud. >> Would you? >> If that's your motion, I'll second that. >> I can make that motion. >> Yeah. And I'll >> So I'll repeat it. So, I I'll make a motion that uh we request staff to email
us or communicate with us their plans for the July 4th season and how they plan to and their proactive u planning and procedures to manage the
activities on the beach. >> I'll second that motion. >> Any discussion? Um, I like it. I would I would I like it, but I I wonder if we should only limit it to events and not the other
things that we've been trying to get the city to communicate to us about. Maybe it's a separate motion. So, >> I was going to include that into events. Yeah, the as I bifurcated. >> Okay, fine. As a bifurcated motion, it's very clear. Thank you. >> Yeah, but just to be clear, when they
send you stuff, don't reply to all. you can't talk or discuss by email and that could be later >> BCCS >> but if you get information and and you want u that that then you can act on that individually but don't reply to all or all discussions
so uh I think any other discussion roll call please >> vice ch member kerszman >> yes >> member looney >> yes >> member Rothenberger >> yes >> vice chair Thompson >> yes >> chair Stevens Yes. >> Motion carries. >> So, back
>> when were the when were the elections official? Are they official today? So, now I'm no longer vice chair. >> You were clarified. >> Yep. You're no longer vice chair. >> Got it. >> But you're still on the committee. >> I was waiting. I was waiting for my
>> double your pay >> for your service. >> Yes. >> So, let's go back to events. the the the other bifurc the other side of this events on the beach um the broader conversation that I highlighted before
this. Um is it okay for us to wait till the next meeting to have them come and discuss the broader topic? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Are we I don't know if we need >> we miss out on the next three months of events on the beach.
I'm I'm looking at the big, you know, >> yeah, >> if it's communicated to us and someone is concerned, I don't what I guess you have to let the clerk know that you want a special meeting because it takes three to have a se special meeting and we can't communicate directly among
ourselves. So, I guess if someone wanted to have a special meeting because there's something urgent, they could communicate to Jenny and then let the ball roll from there. >> Yep. I don't know if we need a motion for asking them to come back next.
>> Okay. >> It looks like the next special events over the summer until the next meeting would be the mind travel silent concerts and the the second versus the second one and then the outdoor volleyball
association. Um I guess it's a volleyball tournaments in June and July. Yeah. Um, in my ride along I I saw and had a comment about the volleyball. Um,
before storm we actually moved the volleyball had them move the volleyball courts seawward and because we did a planting u at the dunes. They've seemed to migrate it landward a bit. And in my ride along,
I heard from maintenance that they had to go out and ask the volleyballers to get off the dunes and get their stuff off the dunes and they had a car or a truck on the beach. So, I would say um
you know, in terms of events on the beach, I would bring into when a volleyball gets a permit, they need to commit to staying off the dunes. And if you know there's some recourse of enforcement that if they continue to
break that rule, they get they permit pool and they're not allowed having uh volleyball anymore. Uh but that I was going to wait for the next I would just ask maybe staff talk to the volleyball team. It's time to move your they just re nourished the beach so there's plenty
of sand there. Move them saying move the courts seawward and stay off the dunes and you're being watched. And if it continues, you might not get, you know, permit to continue your activities there. And that's from a dune preser per
preservation one. I don't know anything about the the silent con >> that's usually done in pasil I think or has been >> there's one in pass too. >> There's one at that one they put the headphones on and they dance and you can't hear them but you get to watch them. >> I've never seen it but
>> that's exactly what it is. is the the volleyball are they at UPM for volleyball events? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. >> There's some volleyball courts down by Krabby Bills >> and I don't know >> I think Bonire has one too >> and some of those courts are actually on
public property. So if you look at that, so I don't know if those are crabby bills that are on public property, but uh you know a note made to staff there that find out who is that, where are they, why are they there, did we give them permission there? That's from a
liability and and just holding, you know, people accountable for that. >> What are you referring to by public beach? >> So if you go to Krabby Bills, there's the street >> and then there's the walkover. And if you actually look at the property records that that goes that street
>> that 25 feet or whatever >> 25 feet goes out. There is a volleyball court on that 25 feet. Again, I don't know. >> Yeah, >> I I know that because the property just south of it called Dune Savers and we're talking to them potentially about helping them with their dunes. And the
first thing is do they own is do they have title to it or is it city property? Because depending on that you have to you know you have to get a permit to do anything in the dune. So I I did the work for that. So I understand where the property lines are. That's the only reason I do it. Uh but that's thank you.
>> All right. So we're going to ask them to uh come back next meeting. If anybody sees something or hears something going on, please, you know, work through Camden because I think Camden is now our beach
liaison member again. Um, >> how do you I didn't know that. >> I I've heard through the grapevine that our previous board leaison, Brian, what was his last name? >> Um, is no longer with the city. >> I was led to believe that. I don't know
to be true. I saw Camden's name here. So, I'm putting two and two to equal four or equal five. Um, so I at this point I think >> So, uh, I would work through Camden if you hear me. He might have go he was probably going
to tell us if he was here. Yeah. What was going on? >> Our new layers on. >> Yes. Yeah. But he is not here. >> I believe that's >> again I am assuming of some things there but >> that's all right. Oh, one one thing. I don't
know if this slots in right for the events, but the discussion about the mind travel and the volleyball at Upam. Um, >> I just want to make a comment. The parking at Upam Beach
after a rainstorm, the the parking spots flood >> chronically. Um it's it's been an ongoing problem for a long time and it'd be nice to know if public works has that on their radar. Um maybe
clearing the drains. I know they did some work at a spillway at the south walk over between Silver Sands and Upam. They cleared that area between the sandy sand and the asphalt parking where the
walkover goes over. They did a nice job. Spillway's clear. >> Um I don't know that that's going to really address the flooding on the parking lot. But >> if we have, you know, a typical afternoon thunderstorm and we get 20 minutes of rain,
you're stepping out of your car into, you know, two, three inches of water. It's and it's a tough spot because of the elevation of the parking, the asphalt, the drainage. Water's not going to drain up. So, and I think that was one of the
things that probably created um to some degree the thought about, you know, reworking, redesigning that entire Upam Beach Plaza area because there were plans for additional parking
and it might have been encroaching on a county line or construction line or it got that's been tabled. But the the the point being the parking lot floods. So >> well, you know, I >> think that's an access issue. >> Access >> to the beach if you don't have a place
to park. >> Yeah. And and when we have the or when the minecreen folks come out, the parking lot is jammed. And the same with the volleyball, >> there is no I mean it's no parking, which is good.
>> It's revenue. Um but it's bad for the folks that that that park there and >> who's getting revenue. >> So >> for paid parking >> uh the parking. Okay. >> So the point if Yeah. If we could just have some insight into maybe if there's any plan to you know remedy that or can
you put a band-aid on it? >> Well the city of >> I don't know. >> The city is right now I mean Brandon's having you know a camera going through every storm drain in the city. So, you know, if it hasn't already happened, they're going to be aware of any clog
certainly. And if they if there is no clog and it's a bigger engineering effort, it's really good that you flag this. >> Be nice to know which. >> Yeah, that's all. >> Just have Cam get back to us. >> Sure. Yeah. And you're correct. There is a a storm water cleaning project that is
ongoing right now where they are looking at every single outfall and every single storm water pipe and cleaning whatever needs to be cleaned and assessing everything. >> Thank you. that we'll move forward to um signs on the beach. I asked for this uh also to
be put on. Um this came from the emergency ordinance and city attorney, I was hoping you could give us some background. It sounds it seems very familiar from a matter we
spoke about before the undertoe where they put signs up and there was meetings and then um in trespassing or there was something there. But if you could just catch us up on one
what was what started this? What problem was the private property owner trying to solve? What has the city and them gone through and what do you see what is the city's process? I know there
is a June something meeting a public forum meeting for that and then at the end of that we can discuss if and how we should be as a beach stewardship involved or not involved in that. But I wanted to kind of get caught up what's
the problem? what is both sides, you know, the private property owners, what problem are they trying to solve? Um, I think I understand what the city's trying to solve in terms of public safety and then we can go from there and >> it's good for us to talk about it's gotten a lot of media attention.
>> It it and related to that, I mean, we're already at the point where there's going to be a meeting on June 3. uh we need to understand can we attend or I don't think we can speak because we then and if there's multiple of us we're you know I so I'd like to understand can we
attend obviously I want to be able to listen but I might have some information to share and I thought that this meeting might be a time to share it so we don't get in trouble at the meeting uh and yet it's already this far and no one has sent even a single email to the beach stewardship committee alerting them to
any of this so unless you're following in the media and going to city commission meetings, nobody's even said, "Hey, you know, beach stewards, this might be in your ballpark. We'd like to have you maybe provide some input." That's the piece that goes back to that very first discussion. You know, what
are we here for if we're not even asked for the things like that? Um, you can go to the community workshop. It'll be a publicly noticed advertised workshop. It's on June 3rd at 6 PM in
the same room. And at the bottom of the agenda notice, it will say one or more elected or appointed officials may be in attendance. So that clears you for the Sunshine Law. So you can all be here together. You can each of you can speak
um at the workshop. It's a a listening two-way uh session. Um, so we'll be hearing from the public um as well as uh you guys can speak as individuals and then hopefully something will get back
uh to around to you. U we had to do an emergency ordinance >> before I um we can go to any public meeting and speak as long as we say I'm speaking on my each time I come up and speak I need to qualify. I am speaking
on my own personally and not as my role as a beach steward. >> That's correct. And then things that you do as the beach stewardship committee are done by resolution or recommendation and we take votes and then that gets transmitted to the city commission either through agenda items or minutes.
So anytime in public and I'm >> you're free to express your individual >> this you know when I got reput up I asked for the training again and went through the training of Sunshine Law and I just I encourage you if you haven't looked at it she does a great job and now there's a video but
>> so we had an an incident occur where one of the local hotels put a rebar into the um wet sand area um apparently trying to mark where they thought the location of the mean high water line was based on
survey. Um, and these rebars were just sticking out of the sand and were dangerous. Um, we have beachgoers that play frisbee that run in that shallow water. children play in that area. And then in the evening, there's no lights
and that rebar um could be um a hazard in the evening for strollers um past dark that could walk into it or hurt themselves on it and the steel rebar can get rusty. Um so you could have tetanus issues, things like that. So it was an
emergency to make sure that these were not allowed. it was a kind of a gap loophole if you will in our current code and the D rules. Um so we had an emergency ordinance that would prohibit them. Um
rebar and posts and poles especially the ones of concern were the ones that were being placed in the water or at the water line. So the emergency ordinance um was heard after that was adopted. It's our my understanding currently there are no
more rebars or post or poles in that area. So they were voluntarily or removed during that 7 day grace period or shortly thereafter and and they're not currently an issue. Um but we're having this community workshop meeting
uh June 3rd at 6 pm so we can get some input prior to going back for a regular ordinance first reading and second reading. So, it's possible that we can make some changes, revisions based on what we hear, based on from the community, based on property owners. And
um that's what the purpose of that meeting is for. >> Um did you have a question, John? Yeah, because you said we needed the emergency ordinance, but I had found in the land development code 2618G um that it says that you know signs are
limited and the setback must be 40 ft from the visible water line. So, a it introduced the concept of the visible water line which I heard we were concerned about, but it's it's in our current ordinance and has been there for a long time. So, why wouldn't this rebar
have fallen into that current 40ft rule? Uh, it did say that was for Boer Beach concession signs, corner markers. I mean, does it mean that I I I read it that mean that if Boer Beach concession signs have these requirements to get that put a sign there that every, you
know, you can't just put anything all over the place that these were the only kind of signs you could have. So, >> so this ordinance would clarify that these rebars that are placed at the Minhai water line for surveys purposes for anti-transpassing purposes would not
be allowed there. There is a dichotomy that's going on between the sheriff's department that enforces the trespass and does criminal trespass um and and the need for signage. And it's our current understanding after meeting with
the sheriff's department that they do not require that a sign or a post or a rebar be placed at the corners of the property in order to trespass individuals. So that is uh one one of the drivers apparently why some of the
hotels and bars have put the um posts or marks unipoles rebars signage right at the mean high water line as they were under perhaps a misunderstanding that they needed to mark that corner in order to
trespass someone from their private property. Um so with the undertoe, they voluntarily removed those signs that had come up previously after meeting with the sheriffs and the city manager. Um this new hotel has also removed the
rebar. So we're hoping that um with the adoption of an ordinance um to clarify that it's not just boat and beach concession signs, it's any any type of metal rods or wood posts um in that location would be prohibited. Um
I D has some rules but they have a loophole there if it's a unipole and not two posts. Um there's a loophole in their regulations which were intended to stop turtles from getting stuck in between two posts. Uh, so we're kind of
closing some of the loopholes and making sure that our public uh is able to walk parallel along the beach without running across these um barriers or intrusions or hazards. And we have a free and clear uh wet sand
area that does not have uh these posts and rebars placed in them um for safety concerns. And we're talking in the community workshop maybe how how long that distance should be. Right now I think we have 50 ft from the bean high
water line. There was some discussion at council trying to make it from visible water. That received one vote. There was four votes to go from beanh high water line. I think the concern with the visible was that you could be in compliance um at low tide and out of compliance at high tide. Um so it would
be difficult um rather than having a fixed point. And yes, it is more expensive to get a survey, but it does give you a a fixed point. And there was a proposal that once the fixed point is identified that it be measured to the nearest structure and then that could be
used for by code enforcement to come back to the line where it should be. So, there's a bunch of various um ideas that are being uh considered and the community workshop is the place to bring these ideas up uh for review and we look forward to getting those comments there.
>> Back to the original why. Um I'm assuming that they had a and you may not be able you might not know or you not choose not to answer it because of your role. Um, and I wish the hotel earier was here and I would
>> Why did they put the rebar in? >> What What was there an was there an event that they tried to trespass somebody and the the sheriff wouldn't and then they went to an attorney kind of like my understanding of what happened at the undertoe. There was a trespass event. The the sheriff wouldn't
trespass. So they went to an attorney and the attorney said sign up, you know, put all the signs up and and then they the meeting with the sheriff, a formal meeting with the sheriff in the city which then allowed Undertoe to trespass
when you know a knucklehead shows up and they need to protect their property. Is is that is that the same kind of events that have happened here? What what was the initial there? I don't know the I don't know why they put the rebar at the mean high water line. I can only surmise
that they were doing it to mark their property line for trespass, but I they would have to speak to that. I'm sure they'll be at the community workshop. >> The other thought here, you know, if you're marketing a wine, you're trying to keep people out or you're trying to keep
people in. If you're trying to keep them out, you don't want them trespassing in you. You don't want them coming in your party. If they're drinking on the beach, you don't want them straying outside your private property. And I've seen I've seen those sign those signs, the the post and rope,
>> like you can drink within these boundaries. So, it might be a bit of each. I don't know. It probably >> it just be interesting to hear the motive. Why >> why all of a sudden boom, these things show up. >> I I you know, one would assume that they had an incident and they couldn't get
help from the police like the undertoe. Again, >> at the Undertoe, they had the people they alleged that people brought coolers and tents and set up in front of their area and were drinking on the beach and it was outside their allowed drinking
area and they were not patrons or customers of Undertoe and they had concerns that they would be cited for allowing drinking outside their area. >> Um the sheriff um >> establishing the border that created the issue. they didn't have the border then they wouldn't be having
>> so the alcohol um zones have have a section in the code where they're delineated and marked and that's something that's coming up in our beach ordinance uh a review of how alcohol zones are created and posted and noticed um and enforced. Um so that's that's
part of the E that's coming up on the agenda. You'll hear that when when the beach ordinance comes through the next steps. Um so yeah you have you have a bit of a dichotomy. The the sheriffs have said they were using a reasonable discretion
uh perspective. They will ask people what if they are disruptive um or if they're camped out with tents in a place where it's private property and they have coolers they will ask them where did you come from? Are you from
the hotel next door? you need to move back to your area if you're going to be doing this. Um, so they're using a reasonable standard that takes into account also customary use doctrine where if a particular use
and a particular beach has been going on since time in memorial and it's ancient and customary, then that can continue. But typically those are people walking along the beach or beach going parallel and typically doesn't include the more
modern things like setting up the sun uh tents and camping on private property during the day um or abuse of uh or drinking of alcohol in violation of city
ordinances. So these things all interact together and the the sheriff is uniquely situated to be able to analyze what's happening and and issue warnings and try to gain compliance. Uh one of the other problems is not having you know the
level of enforcement the number of enforcers on the beach is limited and we have quite a number of people that come to the beach. So trying to make sure that all the rules are abided by them during all times is is difficult. So we have had reports of people walking into
the dunes u things like that. And some of these dunes, you know, are private property and people are going in there and going to the bathroom, things like that. So clear clear violations. And so we have also a section now in the code that we've adopted for code enforcement
citations. So instead of having to to um put a notice of violation on the property owner, the condo association, they can give us a ticket, a citation to the person that's actually has a dog off the leash or a dog on the beach or is in
the dunes or is um littering. Um these kinds of things can be um can be addressed with citations to the individual for behavior violations as opposed to a property owner who's violating a code provision. I've waited to to give to give some of
my comments on this and I've spent a lot of time thinking of it and I've spoken at probably meetings about this. First off, you know, you you said something about private property and I do think that we have a case throughout the beach of various properties trying to quote
stake their claim. Um and and when I look though at the deeds that are in the public record, you know, when someone transfers a property, um they may or may not include the mineral rights. Well, they also may or may not include the
beach. And when I look at one of the subject properties, I'm not going to I don't want to get too specific, but when I look at one of the subject properties, although when the government sold the property to the first entity, uh it included a mention of riparian rights
appertaining. Um, I then went to the statute though uh in in Florida that defines what riparian rights are because unlike other places they include latoral rights in the riparian rights, but there's some issues there and significantly
the subsequent deeds from the very first owner to the very first hotelier to then three more generations or multiple generations. The riparian rights were not mentioned, nor was a mean high water line mentioned. It was specifically just
a lot where a beach was shown separately. So I view that when someone then starts putting things in the high water line, you first need to step back and go, well, wait a second. Why are you even talking about the high water line?
You only own up to the dune line. So, I I I think we have to really, you know, it's sort of like if there was a sign that says you only can murder people with knives, you know, I don't want to just talk about where the sign is. I want to talk about why are they doing
the sign and and and everything about it. Um, and I have some information I want to share with you privately afterwards uh on one of the properties. Uh and then if you look at the sign ordinance >> point of question point of question >> um
>> you're bringing up some things that would have you know as we think about ordinances and how to manage you're you're bringing up lot by lot case by case and because you brought up one which the one right next to it could
have could in their title say to >> absolutely >> the waters of that. So I just don't know how feasible it is to do an ordinance that you would do it one by one other than hey do you own to them do you own to the water or not and if you don't if
you do >> you have some rights and if you don't then that's >> public property that's city property >> it has to be judged at the time or ahead of time >> but >> to do an ordinance across we need to you
know if if it's private property which means in if they own to the mean high water line then that's one if they don't own it then that's city property or public property >> and I think the arguments we're have or
the not arguments sorry I retract that the discussion we are having is they contend that it's private property and they have rights >> so it's not really a question of sign it's a question of ownership it's the staking of claim process And the sign is
the first element of it because they've tried to trespass people and whe that work or didn't. Next, they go and we're going to try to put a sign and they're going to test the waters that way. As I likened it, it was like Jurassic Park. They just keep checking testing the testing the defenses. >> And back to my point, I see it differently. It's the sign is they can
only put a sign if it's their property. They can only put a post if it's their property. I can't go to your yard and put >> I can't even put a sign in my po my property without a permit. So, that's even a bigger question. Stop it. >> They But to the point it's it gets back into the sign ordinance. I would assume
the sign ordinance assumes that they are the you own the property. >> Sign ordinance applies everywhere >> regardless of ownership right. But you have to own the property to put a sign on it. So >> though I agree with everything you said that some titles don't. I don't know if
it's relevant. >> And each property along this beach is different. >> Yeah. >> Like John John's point out >> as I said. So I think it's relevant to >> so ownership it requires a case by case analysis and a title search and a title opinion. >> Yeah. >> So we're trying not to get into the um
weeds if you will on individual properties and the ordinance just says >> we have to relax can't have have Yeah. >> So customer use that. So you you you're interrupting me to ask a question. Thank you. Thank you for the point of question >> and and and so continuing um when you
know we have the the big question that came up from the uh some of the attorneys was they didn't like mention of mean high water line so I think that for our sign ordinance we ought to be considering similar to our current ordinance that refers to the visible line or maybe even the visible vis I
would change it to say visible high water line that way it doesn't change throughout the day but you see the weeds washing up. And I I want to note that there were places where when I saw the weeds walk uh the weed line, uh there were some posts that were even outside
the weed line uh that were supposedly looked like almost like a alcohol zone. Um and now that this new ordinance came in place, I paced out and it's 50 ft from the visible line. So I think that a visible high water line would be effective. You talked about loopholes
though in our in our sign ordinance or the D sign ordinance. One of the ones that I flagged is that our our master our our one of our key documents says that the preservation zone um is is is
to the is to the water. Um and yet our map of the preservation zone has the preservation zone stopping at the dune line. So there's an inconsistency between our map and our definition of the preservation zone. The reason I
bring it up is because in our ordinances, we talk about signs in the large resort district for the beach or signs for the boutique or the beach, but there is no boutique zone or or large
resort zone at on the beach because it's the preservation that was on there. So we need to we have to fix the sign ordinance and refer to adjacent and and and have a rule for the preservation zone and and to have separate separate rules for preservation zone which could
address these things. Um and and and the mean high water line although it's a 19-year average it changes every day also. So, it's not like one can just say, "Oh, well, we're going to get a survey and we're going to put a steak in the ground because you know what? Tomorrow it could be five years after that big storm and and it could have
changed." Um, so the other loophole is flag poles. We need to uh I'd hate to see somebody put a flag pole on the end points of each of their of their property. Uh, and I guess what that sign's going to you know, that
flag could be any flag. Um, and the other question would be I know it's talking about signs, but they seem to be using these almost as fences. So, the fence ordinance I think comes into play. Um, you know, if you can't if you can't stop it from a sign
perspective, you can stop it from a fence perspective. You can't put a fence here. I mean, because they actually put in cones, you know, making a ver, you know, making a fence with cones and and we've always put a stop to that, but every once in a while they try it again. Um, and in in the Fort Walton area,
they're making fences with chairs. So, they come in and they put their private chairs out and a wall of chairs, nobody in them. So, again, that's what we need to be protecting against with, you know, the sign ordinance because it's really you're using those chairs to be a sign.
Um and and and and and then lastly on a sign, one of the tech techniques may be, you know, if you're not paying property tax, you can't put signs on that part of the property. People are only paying property tax to the dune line. And you
know, you don't get representation without taxation. So, uh or you know, tax, we don't like taxation without representation. I don't think we like representation without taxation either. Why would you put a sign where you on a part of your property or part of a property that you're not even paying
taxes on? And and I'll I'll talk to you privately from a legal perspective afterwards if we could. I have sent some emails to you as the attorney. Just as an aside, it still appears that the city attorney mailbox may be going to the old law firm, but the and it's only the
>> No, it goes to all of us. It goes to Becky, Nancy, and myself. >> No, I'm referring to that's the that's the issue. For instance, on our bidsp specs, we say >> Jenny will Jenny will give you the current email address. >> I know what it is. What I'm telling you is that the we have bidsp specs and other documents that say city attorney
at St. Pete Beach, but the address for you is attorney at St. Pete Beach. And I've sent to both of them and yet neither of them seem to be getting to you. >> So, we'll have we'll have the clerk. >> We'll check that out after John. >> I'm worried that someone else is reading some of these attorney documents. I
should just say um >> just a point of >> We'll get together and confirm. >> Well, what time what time is the meeting over? >> 10:30. >> I never heard that before. >> I thought it was we're scheduled from 9:00 to 10:30. >> I've never seen an end date. >> I just That's how I always assumed it to be.
>> No, I never heard that. >> But on that it's we can >> that was the issues that I had. Yeah. >> Okay. Um and again, we're going to have that workshop. It's done June 3rd at 6 PM >> in the same room. Can I speak on
something quickly? Um, so I will not be here on June 3rd, but I'll be listening. Um, I have a lot of the same concerns that John has as far as signs on the beach. I do feel like the signs are a symptom of something else. Kind of what
you were getting to. Why are they up? I think there's we've had so many things happen. We've had mothballs on the beach and a huge thing scheduled during turtle season on the beach. I just I feel like this committee, this meeting we're going to have the public forum. I really hope that the property owners along the beach
are present because I think we all really need to hear what their worries are, their concerns are, and how we can all find a place because my concerns are always how does this impact the wildlife? How does this impact the birds? How does it impact the turtles? Because right now, like John Kuzman
said, there's there are properties that are completely covered with cones and chairs and umbrellas and there's no way I don't know what they look like after dark, but I know some of them probably aren't completely emptied. So, I think that's a big issue. And when I asked the city um
staff about what are our guidelines as far as pushing back, it's really only if there is a turtle nest are they required to remove all those large cabanas off the beach. And so my question is how I mean the birds aren't going to nest on a part of the beach that's covered in
chairs. They're also not going to nest you know if you don't have chairs you're going to put moth balls out. You know if you don't have moth balls you're going to put a large inflatable slide out. So you know what are we doing on the beach and how do we make this uniform to all like the tiny properties versus the large properties. I think it needs to be
a uniform. >> Yep. Since you mentioned the mouthps, I did want to let people know that there's a $1,000 reward for information about the mothballs. >> It's gone up now. >> 2,200 and there's a $10,000 per violation per mothball uh fine that's
potential from the federal government >> since you mentioned. >> So, these are illegal illegal mothballs that were put out in the sand dune areas apparently to discourage black skimmers and they do contain toxic materials. um
and napylene and paracchloro benzene which are poisonous and toxic >> um to humans as well as to to wildlife. So please and if you see anything like that please report it immediately and there is a reward. So back to your the
chairs and all that. I believe the third part of the beach ordinance that is the b the the third one they have that is coming but we have to wait because we can't make anything more restrictive. If I remember how Barry Brandon was talking
about it he split it up into three >> three sections. Yeah. >> In the third section we'll get into those chairs. I I was led to believe that that would be addressed in that third section which I don't know when that is coming but we wanted to get the
first two and that's why it was split. >> We're going to get something done. >> Speaking on this that that the two topics we just mentioned. One is the chairs. Our our our BTR code says there's a $20 charge for chair umbrella
cabana. It doesn't say per property. So if if if And this is why I was trying to bring it up before, but it's relevant here. If if a if a if an entity has to pay per chair, they may be more hesitant to put out so many chairs than getting to put out a thousand chairs for $20.
>> Yeah. So BTRs are um like an occupational license. So it's one per business, but we could charge a permit fee for each chair, which is I think is what you're getting at. Well, I saw that for the salons we charge per chair for each they charge an extra $5 for every
chair in the salon. So, I thought that, you know, >> I'll take a I'll take a look at that. I think hair salons are a little bit different. >> Because I think they have individual contractors that rent chairs space. So, I'm not sure how that works, but I'll I'll take a look at that. >> I'll show you afterwards.
>> But the BTR is for occupational license for businesses per >> business. >> Yeah. >> Business of renting. even vending machines, >> but you can't you you could have a permit for a vending machine, a permit for a chair. Each one would have a medallion or a sticker or a metal
>> because our BTR even charged pool table right now. And then the other thing was the the camper balls. I was in a drugstore yesterday and right on the bottom shelf with all the medicine, they actually did have some some camper balls. And you know, I I I've spoken about this at public meetings and I put it out here. You know, I don't think
people should assume this was anti- skimmer because the first reports were that the camper balls were actually being used like a fence. It was along a property line and then they said, "Oh, now we found it along the other property line." Now, the next night someone came out and threw more stuff. But the
initial discovery was camper balls being used like a fence. And when you research or you talk to a bird expert, bird experts used to leave camper balls at nests because they wanted to hide the sense of humans help the birds and the
camper balls would confuse the mamalian predators. So if you wanted to protect the skimmers, you would make a fence of camper balls on the property. And no, they didn't even put it between the birds and the water. They put it at the dune line and the sides as if they were
trying to protect them using what was commonly used. But the D and other government agencies have been telling people for 20 years. And I have a study, you know, from 20 years ago was saying bird people stop using mothballs to protect the birds. Don't do that. So,
that was a tech, this is an old-timer technique to protect birds and fence them off to keep the raccoons to keep the other animals and and and remember, you know, I'll just stop stop there, but that's the issue. >> Are we I think we're ready to go to the
number C, which is public peach access point signage. And I brought that up and I've actually talked to Camden about this and it uh it was to stop take a look and standardize the
signage both on the east side of the public access and the west side. If you go down to pass a grill, there's actually signs at each. Well, there after the hurricane etc., but there was showing public access and the street
number and it actually by doing that on both sides and you know perhaps even looking at the effectiveness on the east side. But the goal of this is to one, make it clear to beachgoers where there is public access, and two, if you're on
the beach and there is an emergency, being able to see there's my closest beach access in the street number when I'm calling for emergency services. Here is the closest uh public access. Correct. >> And that was that that was the idea. You
might also consider at each public um you know, for is to put a totter trash so when people are leaving they have a place to to put trash. But the the goal there is to one make it more obvious on where there is access public
access. Two to to make it obvious if there's an emergency where to send emergency. It's kind of like on the highway mile markers. And three, if you could add totters, make it easier for people to do the right thing and throw
away their trash when they're leaving. >> So that that was why I put that there. I've already talked to Camden, but if you could bring that up and I don't know if anybody else has any comments on that. So, so what you're getting at is is you're saying there should be signs on
the beach to let people know where to exit just as well where they are >> with the street with with the reference number. >> We used to have them. Were they not there now? >> Down on Pass Grill. There was a project then it stopped. >> Okay. Because you used to be able to walk along. I could look up and say,
"Oh, I'm at 14th or down." Yeah. >> Because it's actually public beach from 1st Street all the way up to 31st Street. That's all public beach. Yeah. >> And there are public access points, but they started that project, but they never continued it. >> My recommendation is continue that all
the way up >> all the way north south of the of the island. So people know where the the access is. >> So So just as a mean high water line means that everything outward of the mean line is owned by the state and public does not imply that everything inside is necessarily private.
Similarly, we I just want to make sure that people don't think that because there is a a a public access sign at a certain location, that lack of a public access sign at another location does not mean it's not public because that's something we really still have to address. We're supposed to be protecting
the public beach. And uh there's a statute that says since 19 if there was access in 1987, it must remain or a suitable alternative provided. And I I have now the deed for instance for 58th Avenue uh that shows and and the the the
state the county maps that show that the in 1987 it was a public access and yet it's been removed and and so and there's there's a number of these where people believe that there was cover public access next to BCI um and a number of other locations that
are now you know you know inconsistent. So, we need to be able to by saying that we're going to put up signs where there is public access. I would want to make sure it's clear that it's not all public access, but just some of them may have them. >> I would say as we go through that, we
would mark each public access. I would be careful about um going down the prescriptive easement path unless it's a true prescriptive easement. um you know the the city has had um before I lived
here was it Shimalowski versus St. Pete Beach where that happened and the city lost and there was great financial consequences. So I don't know if we want to go into the hey but just because they're here you can you might be able to go anywhere else. I that's a
dangerous position for the city to take because that will open us up to yet another lawsuit which in that case was a million dollar settlement. >> I think we're saying >> so we just need to be careful if there is a an access point that is public that
that the city could go down the path to see if it is and then put a sign there. >> So are you recommending that they do the the these these studies now before this? What I was trying to get at was that it would be okay to put the sign as long as
the absence of the sign does not mean that we've given away our customary uh rights. >> That would be a prescriptive easement if I'm correct. >> And and so we're not ruling on all these prescriptive easements. It's not it's it's separate. It's it but prescription easement is an separate issue from customer use. But regardless of the
reason, what all I'm getting at and I think you're getting at is you you want to make sure that there's that that people don't think it's a free-for-all everyone else. And I'm not saying that, but what I am but what I am saying is that the lack of a sign saying it's
public access does not mean it's not public. >> I would I would I understand your point >> and that's the way it is now. >> And I would just say I would leave that to the city attorney and the staff to make that determination because they are the experts at this. Not I'm not a lawyer, nor do I. If they wanted TV, um
I would allow them to >> I think we're only putting signs where the city has deeded access or where access was on a deed in 1987 like you were saying. Those ones are posted, but we're not posting prescriptive easement ones. Uh those can be done. >> The city will do the research about 1987
when they do this project. If you have one that you want to show me what happens with when hotel projects or redevelopment projects come forward uh title search is done when there is a deed access of 1987 and they want to build on that they have to provide an alternative access. So they work with
Brandon and that team to identify where that will go. That's happened in a couple locations already. >> Yeah. And some of and not all. So again I just either please bring it to the city. >> It shouldn't be up to me. I'm not I I don't I don't play this on TV either. So,
>> yeah, we review all the surveys for every development that comes in and we check for that and we do that on a case- by case basis as the developments come in. >> So, again, if we're going to put signs on on public access ways, I'm just saying that we need to clarify. We are not certifying that by doing that we
have made the decision that there are no other public access ways in the city. That's my concern. >> That's correct. And we don't need a sign to say that. I'm not sure we would put a sign. saying that we're putting them everywhere and I'm saying no, we can't say we're putting them everywhere. We may just select certain ones and and and
map certain ones, but there's not in anyone saying that the rest are not. >> That's correct. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Um what was the next clearing beach? >> We had the beach ordinance next steps.
Unfortunately, Brandon is still in the technical review committee that started at 10:00. Um but he is preparing um those those ordinances to go forward. Any idea of timing? >> I don't know. I um looking at the emails
and I don't think it's been identified yet. I think he's still working on it. And when one says forward, um I think I got a sense from the city commission meeting that they were also going to schedule, they they don't they don't like to call them workshops, call it a a town hall, uh to let the you know, just
like we're talking about the emergency sign ordinance, talk about some of these things because there's so many things being touched. >> So I think that that's the next step is not a first reading but a discussion. >> City clerk, could you have Brandon email us what the plan steps are for the beach
ordinance? >> Sure. Did we skip over the hurricane preparedness when a storm >> it's added? Well, I don't know what order they were, but >> I think that each clean. So, >> yeah. >> Okay, that's that might be a maintenance
or could you have the public works unless you have the answer now? >> I I think I might have some of the answer and then if you have additional questions I can seek to find the answers. Um, so my understanding is that for when a
hurricane is coming, and we know a hurricane is coming, um, we have our team go out and pick up the trash cans, pick up the traffic barrels, those types of things. Um, anything that might be certainly public or public rightway, we're picking those kinds of things up.
When it's private property, we are reaching out to like the hotels and whatnot and saying, "Hey, we noticed these are still here." and notifying them that they need to pick up their items. Does that answer your question? >> It does. >> Great. >> Thank you. >> No problem.
>> Is there anything else? >> I would be nervous about sort of using that as a way to declare what's private and public property, but certainly if it's a private item, I think it's really more that we're telling them to get their private items off the beach without implying that we've decided that
that's a private beach. I just want to be cautious about >> I just mean whatever the private area is. If it's a hotel and it's their item. Oh, and speaking of um our cabana rentals that we have, we contact the company and they come and remove the
cabanas. Is is there any type of last minute like monitoring like from the sheriff's department, anyone to make sure that all of that has happened or I know this last one, you know, things like the benches all disappeared, which that's obviously not something you're going to load up,
but >> they floated. >> Yeah, they did. Um, but I'm just curious like private businesses if they've, you know, they got scared and left and just left a lot of things to become airborne or waterborne. Is there any type of like
county or city assistance that we can that we look for or ask for when it comes to things like that or >> So, as Chairman Stevens had noted, our team is out there every single morning looking at everything and assessing everything. So, they notify the property owners when they see something that
isn't ours. We, you know what I mean? But when it's ours that we do everything we can to pick it up. >> Okay. I just don't know if there's more of a combined effort to like we're all in this together kind of a bring in more people like let's get all this stuff moved this fast. I was just curious if there's any type of >> I wish it was like >> teamwork.
>> Yeah. >> Like get it out now. >> I can I can speak to our the public services team and how they are >> not like a task force to like come out and like let's get this all taken care of. >> I know that um our operations managers
um are very aware of hurricane season. So there's a lot of preparatory work done >> even before we have a storm that's coming our way because you know we've all lived here long enough to know >> it can turn pretty quickly pretty easily um even if you see the path you know so
we we try to be pretty proactive I know operations managers stay on top of that and really try to maintain that and also be aware of like hey there are these things >> on that property or on that owned by the private owners and so we need to be aware of those things if they aren't
picked stuff. We need to notify them. >> Yeah. I know one thing I noticed on the beach, which you know, no one really anticipated what we experienced, but >> there was so much glass on the beach. I collected a jar full of glass between Thanksgiving and Christmas, between
Paradise Grill and the end just walking the beach every morning. I would end up with a handful of glass. So, I don't know how we communicate with maybe even more landward, you know, people who might not be beachfront, but there's just things that I think we need to
consider. Maybe I know we got hurricane preparedness coming up. >> Yeah, >> maybe things like that, you know, like how do you secure things like recycle bins and I don't know. It's >> a good point. I >> don't know. There was I mean, there was China. There was so much. I mean, there was just
>> an insane amount of glass up on the beach. All right, I think that leads us to our last agreed upon uh agenda item. Uh general topics. I'll start this way with
Dan. General discussion topics. >> No, I'm sorry. >> Yeah, I don't have anything right now at all. Okay, >> Chrisman.
>> Yes, thank you. Um, in our February 25th meeting, there was an item D, beach access points. And in the minutes, it says, "Attorney Brooks suggested compiling a list of specific access point addresses as the next step so staff can verify their legal status with
the city." Um so um and and it also said to support this effort staff will assist with contacting a former city planner who may have circle maps and planning records and it may clarify access points were originally established. So I had already and it was not discussed here
and I forgot to mention it again but we discussed how I had already reached out to I think that person and he had sent me a collection of of he sent me that Penllis County map that showed for instance and it was from 1987 of of which was helpful but now what is
the next step um and is this is the city staff doing any research in this area or you know how do we move forward on that would be my one of my general issues Um, >> I'm working with Kandon. I'll bring that back the next meeting. >> Okay. Thank you. And I have some input
for you. And then the last one is on social media. And I I only recommended as my response, maybe you want to come and speak at the next meeting. Um, but the issue was uh fishing line. So, in our draft ordinance, we have it that if
a a sheriff tells you, hey, don't fish here, you stop. Uh, and I think we could do that to other things like ebikes also. But uh when it comes to fishing, we we possibly should be considering in our own ordinance recommendations that you know if you if you if you're
fishing and you see someone swimming, you no longer can cast in that area within 50t of a person or 100t of a person who's swimming and you need to reel it in. These people who are swimming are not are not swimming on rockets. They're swimming by hand. So you have a lot of time to reel that in
and not and not hook them. And we have people that are getting literally they're reporting getting tangled in fishing lines. So I think that we should make a recommendation or consider it, you know, when we get around to the ordinance look publicly uh to address
the fishing line issue that people need to be courteous. I wouldn't want to have people I don't want to be with the bait. You know what I'm saying? >> John, when when you say line, is it line that's been cut or is >> Oh, no. the woman was there and got in an argument with why she didn't need to
because she was there first. >> So, you know, putting out there what they that it's not who's first, it's swimmers are first. Period. >> Thanks. That's that's my recommendation. Maybe other people have other comments. >> Okay. >> Any comments on that?
>> I would say I think it's a public safety issue. Um, I know we don't have a posted swimming area, which I think state law said we can't regulate fishing on the beach, but you can if it's a posted fish
swimming area. We don't have a posted swimming area, but I do believe we just as we're doing signs as public safety. Uh, I believe the sheriff could be called and they can take care of it from a public safety because hooks and I
think in my mind the swimmer takes priority because there are buoys there that the police we didn't we don't need to make a change. The if if the sheriff was called the sheriff should be able to respond to that and take care of that.
And I would ask the, you know, the staff to at their next meeting with the sheriff put that on the agenda saying if someone's having problems with people fishing with swimming, how do you view that? And if they say they don't have the right to make a move, then I would
add it versus if they say yes, that's public safety. We could cite them that way and they already have the mechanism that we would encourage them to act upon that if they receive those calls. But I would encourage anyone I w I saw that
same post. I would not assume, you know, good graces of etiquette unfortunately on the beach. I wish we lived in that world that if they're having a problem that they call the proper enforcement um agency in that agency go and enforce it.
>> Well, almost all of our ordinances are sort of citing what we believe is good behavior. And you know, a swimmer doesn't have a cell phone with them necessarily either to to call at that moment. And so I think that it, you know, just like we say no smoking, no
this, no that, you know, that we could let people know that swimmers come first. If there's buoys out, we don't have to make it a prerequisite, but we know that there's a buoys marking a swim area. You can't drive a jet ski in there except directly because it's a swim area. So, if it's known in a swim area,
if you're going to fish, we I I feel like we could maybe investigate or maybe the attorney could investigate some sort of guidance. We could put it in our ordinance to let people know what good behavior is. Don't do it within 100 feet of a person. Something like that. >> You look at interference with swimmers as a possibility
>> and using your idea that it's a safety issue, >> which we are in agreement of that. It's agree. It's a a discussion on how >> right and whether you have to wait to ask for a sheriff help or give some guidance. >> I leave it to staff to figure out the best way of how. We're we're here to advise not to tell the staff how to do
things. So, >> you know, uh we don't want we don't want swimmers to hook. We don't want fishing people to hook like that. But we all know we cannot limit fishing on a beach >> as a general statement. Yeah. Any
other general? >> I don't have anything. >> All right. I think we've gotten through all of the agenda. And with that, I will call this meeting adjourned at 10:50
a.m. I don't think