##VIDEO ID:NFud09f9Bms## okay I'm calling to order the special Commission meeting of the steart city commission zoning and progress zip Workshop number two on 7 November uh roll call please oh yes roll call please mayor rich here commissioner Clark yes commissioner Collins yes commissioner goobi here commissioner Reed here please stand for the pledge of [Music] allegiance of the United States of America to the for it stands Nation indivisible we have any comments by City commissioners to begin I have a comment commissioner Collins you have the floor I was going to request that you know just in looking at chapter three in these Special Districts I spoke to Mike about this as well but you know the form based code East Stewart Creek this this is all pretty comprehensive stuff I think it could take us a while to really unpack this so what I wanted to propose to try to help get the rest of the city City moving forward and able to get applications in is today bypass the special zoning districts like E Stewart and Creek and the urban and focus on the rest of this with regard to like basically everything else concurrency parking the other chapters and get that buttoned up I want us to stay within a zip but if we can finish going through the rest like we did with chapter two package that all together and then have a special meet special meetings for whoever needs to look at this crb LPA and have it buttoned up in in front of us and that way we can approve it sooner than later but stay in a zip and continue to hash out these Special Districts which I think will take more time but I don't want to hold hostage the rest of the city while we're doing that so what I'd like to propose would be bypass the Special Districts focus on that later and then again get into the rest of uh parking concurrency and and get that buttoned up and um not accept applications for these Special Districts and then once we've gotten this all done and approved and there's the new code start receiving from the rest of the city applications so exempt the rest of the city other than the so I can I can tell you that today's date um assuming that we follow that and let's say we get through the uh parking stuff and we have because we have Direction on what we did in Chapter 2 already it'll be staff will bring back in the dece well problem is the December meeting is normally a reorg meeting that's generally short and to have a full agenda item like that we can do it but there's only one meeting in December we won't be able to get it back by the second meeting in November because the new policy the agenda for the second meeting in November closes Tuesday um but uh if we if you want it we could do it on the December I think it's 12th or whatever the second Monday of it might be December 9th could we authorize you to get it on that November second November meeting then I mean I can't it won't be done it won't be there because it the the the agenda closes Tuesday there I mean there got it so we can do it on that reorg meeting but it'll be a long meeting and what we plan to do is we'll come back with a resolution with all of the proposed changes that the commission wants and you'll literally vote on them almost like a a menu or List we'll come back with notes as a resolution then we would bring the December foll meeting is it possible to package them together have well yes but then if we package them together you guys vote Yes or no and if there's one thing in there you don't want you start unpackaging it and and then all of a sudden we're you know it's like if you know there's lots of the way it works anytime in the past we've done it is when that happens the record starts getting lost because the resolution ends up getting Rewritten the next day because everything that was packaged together gets undone but we'll try to do it organized enough to where stuff is and it's not depending on what it is like for example with parking if the only change you guys make is that you're changing it from 300 car for 300 ft to one car for 250 well the changing the number 300 to 250 is easy so that's easy to do but let me just walk through the timeline anyway so assuming that we brought back the first reading of the ordinance in to LPA and CRA or crb in the first meeting of January we could bring the first reading of the ordinance to the Commission in the second meeting of January which would have the second reading of the ordinance in the first meeting in February and the 180 days expires on March 4th so at the meeting scheduled for the 28th of November we already have another 90-day extension for the zip no matter what we're looking at adopting it in February even if we had a special meeting which would give two weeks till the whole zip is over on um March 5th the zip is over so any changes that didn't get made anybody that makes application will be allowed to make application under the current code so as we say to say that we're going to get this done and then get back to the other stuff that's true we'll just be making those changes without a zoning in progress now the truth of it is the zoning in progress itself triggered like 13 applications so it it could be that without the zoning in progress the sense of urgency isn't there and people don't apply but the other issues that we have to address with the commission is for example I'm going to use that parking one again we're going to get into that more today but there's several different parking regulations for example medical I believe is one space per 200 sare ft retail is one space per 250 square ft office is one space per 300 Square ft just because of the studies show it staff has recommendation to follow a particular parking program but the commission so far has said they wanted to change the um numbers lower num doesn't matter which one we do if we change the parking I'm going to use Walmart for example Walmart is currently uh seeking to do a um a fulfillment center is what it's called so the Fulfillment center let's say it's a 3,000 ft building in the back of the parking lot that they want to you'd order online and you can drive and pick it up instead of going inside Walmart to get caught up in the crowds of all the people well if we have the new code and instead of it being one space per 300 it's one space per 200 whatever that might be well under the 300 calculation the 3,000 ft space would need 10 new parking spaces under the 200 calculation it would need 13.3 or 14 sparking spaces but if you guys adopt the C the code wholeheartedly Walmart would become a non-conforming use and as a result if they wanted to expand the non-conforming use they would be required to bring the entire property into compliance and as a result instead of having to build 14 spaces you'd have to do that calculation on 166,000 Square ft and determine how many spaces is so it probably be like 80 spaces that they had to build and then on top of that if we change the pervious from 65 to 50 they would also have to remove cement and another example would be the wind Dixie unless we wave it in a ped right well you guys right it's it's then you'd be granting exceptions but yes and then for example the wind Dixie wind Dixie is currently 55,000 sare ft it's there's a flooring Floors Direct or something like that wanting to go into the wind Dixie space but Grocery and Floors Direct have different parking calculations because they're different uses as a result they're at Bay because of the zoning in progress once the zoning in progress is adopted if they go right now they're not they don't have a PUD at straight zoning they will have to come in and do a PUD because again the non-conforming use of the entire parcel will be that for wind Dixie to put space to space they won't be able to because they'll have to remove parking lot add shade trees and build additional parking spaces and the and the same thing goes for an you know a two room office on East Ocean Boulevard if it's currently a doctor and it changes to an accountant the medical use versus the office use it's a different calculation it triggers the thing or and as a result they too would have to build the new parking or go through the entire PUD process to get the waiver from the commission and again waivers is what our code is designed to do but what's happened in the past is people perceive waivers as the commission giving stuff away even though as we're writing it now you guys are anticipating writing it strict so that you can balance it and and make exceptions to give stuff away but the public perception of that isn't that you're actually enforcing a higher level of or higher standard it's that you're giving everything away and I I just mention it because it's those nature of what if you guys say it only applies to new construction then all of those examples go out the window because if it doesn't expand the existing use and only applies to new construction and everybody that's in place now is in place then it's a lot easier for you guys to digest and address but I don't know the we would grandfather in the existing use we're not going to make everything non-conforming well it does make everything non-conforming but if we grandfather in the now you're grandfathered in so you're grandfather by its very nature is that you're a non-conforming use and your grandfathered in and as a result if you want to expand your use at a fulfillment center then you have to make the entire parcel conforming by bringing everything up to code for example a non-conforming grandfather wi Dixie wants to change to flooring direct doesn't want to increase its square footage at all but it's changing its use it's got to come up to it's got to bring the grandfathered in has to bring everything up to code to change the use so it wouldn't just be 55,000 feet to 55,000 Square F feet it's the only thing that can go in that store is a grocery store or else they have to bring the entire Plaza up the new code if it's grandfather and so that non-conforming nature of it is very complicated and honestly is is is hard to regulate it's it's better to go in the direction you guys are going and that is yeah you've got to do it if we here's the new code anybody that's not conforming does have to bring it up to and meet this because if not you've got somewhere like the uh Walmart for example Walmart was built and then it added a liquor store that was kind of attached to it but not really based on the state law but that was an expansion of the use now it's adding the Fulfillment center and so that's an expansion of the use and over time you'd have three different parking calculations trying to figure out who's what it it becomes you difficult but I mean it's not impossible it just becomes complicated um anyway I mention that because we're going to start talking about the parking and when we have the meeting and we come back in this with this resolution we staff is going to be seeking from the board and you don't have to answer now because it's not necessary do you want it to be everybody in the city has to meet these new standards if they want any change in use or or increase in intensity otherwise they're fine the way they are or do you want it to be just new construction and as a result anything that's already built already meets and doesn't have to meet the standard which for example like the wind Dixie would allow the flooring direct but it by doing it that way it's going to be complicated because staff is going to have to write a lot more code to make it explained in the code as to who complies and who doesn't so it would require more time to bring it back it's the unfortunate reality of if you have previous commissions that keep you know decreasing part work requirements and giving more density and to be able to peel back at all it's going to create an issue like that you know if you're going to reformat parking requirements in the city and the density it's going to create that and it has to apply across the board otherwise it's going to be a mess I agree with you so with that being said can I just commented on this the schedule that Mr commissioner Collins talking about and taking out the creek district and E St and especially two areas that are in the C and I know that people just used to that new code and they're trying to prepare um something to bring in with regard to to those codes and I think if we set them back and change something else and then we wait another time to consider them um I just think we just need to continue and spend the time and do everything all at once and if we have to do something uh with any of those two codes or at least it's a one code thing because they considered form based even though they have different requirements different care back um that I just think that we need will be then those people their their level of expectation when the zip is quote unquote over and we have to go back again and I'm not sure you're saying that no I'm saying we forgive me I would I'm saying we would stay in a zip but what we would do is relieve the rest of the city other than those districts we wouldn't hold the rest of the district the rest of the city hostage while we have to hash out the complex code of form base code we could we could um it's not really an exemption but we would exemp them once we have code for the rest of the City established and approved for what it's worth and if it gives them a couple months I actually think Mr Collins proposal is more realistic um because able to develop that well that's the the next question is the well right now they're right now the zip is going to end up if the commission votes on the 28th of November 26th of November to extend the zip which it clearly looks like it's going to yeah um it will expire March 4th we going the path we're going if we skip chapter 3 it's highly unlikely that we're going to get back and rewrite the urban codes in chapter 3 prior to March 4th because we're going to be focused on doing the other codes that commission Collins is pointing out and as a result we will actually be able to get something passed on the other codes before the expiration of the zip and the overlay zones the zip will lift on March 5th without any changes to them at all and then the commission still has the right to if we don't get it accomplished before then right presuming right and we won't because if you switch to parking today and direct us to take at the end of this Workshop have no more workshops and direct us to come back with code no I'm saying we would have more workshops to deal with three and to deal with these whether you did or didn't I'm saying if you said you were 100% finished today and You' done everything MH we will be able to bring back December 9th if you want us to do it at that reorg meeting or actually probably not because we have to go to the LPA so we would go to the LPA in December and then we'd come back the first meeting in January for the oh no it's the resolution we come to you guys December 9th for the resolution to go over the proposed changes and get clarifications like the grandfathering versus not grandfathering what percentage of and how things affect different things you guys adopt that resolution we would then redraft the code based upon it go to the LPA and the crb in the January meeting the second January meeting we could possibly get before the board for the first reading right then the first February meeting we could get the second reading and get it adopted but the truth of it is is even if you even if we had other workshops we wouldn't be able to get the chapter 3 stuff back because it wouldn't be on this timeline and so as a result by the end of February we wouldn't get chapter 3 finished unless we have Direction onto what changes we want on chapter 3 today and my thought on it is following commissioner Collins thought is well if we go in the direction he's going we can address these changes on the major corridors and other places where quite frankly there might be vacant land truth of it is in the urban overlay zones there isn't like a lot of new development going on anyway and any new development that has to happen is going to have to be by PUD now because the way the codes are written in the first place so the commission would still have the ability to address those issues accordingly whereas in the outskirts there's larger scale project projects and bigger pieces of vacant land that are subject to the current code that if you guys are looking to restrict it this would be the efficient means of doing so and and making it so that those can be addressed before the expiration of the zip and then it doesn't have to change your intentions you can still go through the chapter 3 and any other chapters addressing changes in code that you want without the zoning in progress in place anyway and just adopt those codes as you go I would like us to be as close to completing that as possible I agree like a week or two from now I want to have a meeting and we're talking about whatever we're buttoning up maybe after today but going into three and talking about her and I don't I don't disagree but we don't sweep if we don't but if we don't have three by Tuesday we're not going to be able to adopt three in the February meeting just because you only have one meeting in December and you have to go to the LPA and the crb boards before it happens so it's just the timing of it is going to be what it is okay and we can I mean we could stay here all day and get chapter three done it's fine with me I'm just letting you guys know what the timing is how to the rest how do you guys feel yes thank you mayor um Mike I have a question and I know I'm new to the game but I don't I don't mind and I don't know about the other Commissioners to put on more workshops maybe change or add LPA meetings commissioner meetings so that we could get this done in the timeline for more it it it's not the first it's just the idea of for us to have the agenda out a week before the meeting we actually have to have the agenda in the system about a week before that so it's like two weeks before the meeting that the agenda closes so right now the November 26th meeting at Tuesday's staff meeting we finalize that and it this this Tuesday everything that's on that meeting has to be into the computer and done and that meeting will close to have it out so unless we're having the workshop this weekend which we can't because we're not going to have sufficient time under the due process and notice of meetings okay then we won't have it on the November 28th meeting which then puts it no matter what to the December 9th meeting the December 9th meeting is normally a reorg meeting that's normally 30 to 40 minutes long I will promise you that the resolution changing these codes is two to three hours there's no way it's going to be anywhere anywhere less than that so the December 9th meeting as it is is going to be very long now we the the calendar is only one meeting in December even if the commissioner commission wanted to have a second meeting in December it wouldn't matter because after the December 9th meeting there there's going to be a comprehensive rewriting of all these codes that aren't going to be finished December 10th it's going to be a couple of weeks before those are finished which puts us into January and then we have to go to the crb and the LPA so no matter what those meetings have to take place and then we come to the city commission which would be the last meeting in January and the first meeting in February and be completely reconstituted and you're going to have Board hearing some of the most complicated issues we have side who may have no experience I mean that's true the potential for well but except for I mean it doesn't matter because they don't the The Advisory boards don't adopt the code they recommend so I no we see certainly we do we don't always follow it but we do again my question Mike is is it possible I don't know if there's a state possible is it is there a state statue that says you have to have the commission meetings um only two times a month or whatever okay so basically we could add an additional LPA and a crb meeting which would then look and address those items we could add when in the holiday season you're going to add ask these volunteer boards to meet more often I mean that's that that's where could we could you can ask say no but we we almost didn't have uh Forum at the CRA meeting or crb meeting this week uh we actually had to call people on the phone to get them to come so and that's a seven member board um and both the lp and you only need four we didn't have for a standard meeting um so if you have it during a holiday it may or may not but again I can tell you right now these workshops are good and we can work on the urban code and do stuff like that the reality of it is that what is complicated is the actual dra ing of the language so once you guys give us the direction if it's we don't care everybody gets affected and we're changing 300 to 200 and all we have to do is change one number that's easy but it's not it's how do these things interact with each other and how does it play with how does it affect a PUD and how does it affect a currently existing office and how does it affect permits and if you have a currently existing office you need a new roof does that mean you have to build the parking or does it mean that you don't have to build the parking and if you don't if it means that we're going to make an exception and you don't have to build the parking then we have to write what qualifies for the exceptions to not build the parking if it means you do then we have to address the economic impact of it and say okay well is that going to mean that every single property and Steward is going to become non-conforming the day after the adoption of this code and if so what's the remedy for that and I mean there's all sorts of like so it's going to be a it's the it's the interconnection of writing it and staff is going to need I mean I would I would normally say more than 30 days but I think we can get it done in in in three weeks 28 days but it's going to be scrambling to do it right and so maybe taking some of the pressure off for the time frame I was just trying to help well and that's why I because it gives us the ability to do some and get something done before March 1 4th but I'm just being with all that complexity we're going to lean on you guys to help us navigate that apparently commissioner doesn't want not review base code pres so what is it I sorry I don't know where I'm sorry commissioner GI are you done with your no I wasn't okay but that's okay no no go ahead goe okay so again holidays are now over now we're looking at January is it possible to do those extra meetings in January LPA crb um so that we could be further prepared in February to not go over the March deadline that's all I'm looking for and is we could have to do a workshop right after the holiday we could do this all day and and and get through it we could meet next week we can yeah absolutely right and and that's all I'm asking is that doable in in adding those dates and reaching out to the volunteers we can't go all day today because I have meetings because said one so no to say we're extending this meeting sure at the end of this meeting we can schedule the next one right so no you can't that's why we schedule publish schedule understand again I I've constituents have reached out to me asking that you know it is difficult for them to get here their working times during the week is it possible as we're adding can we do a Saturday where people can come and hear input and whatnot from the community I mean I don't know how the rest of the Commissioners feel I'm just trying to address their concerns where they're not able to be here I think the more we're bogged into public comment and even this kind of conversation a half hour we're losing time where we could be going through the code there's nothing more valuable in this process than public com I mean I would say that all of us have a mandate from voters we know what we need to do this process is not confusing why we've gotten into the issues that we have are not confusing there's going to be obviously from people who you know business owners or people trying to there's going to be frustrations there but the public at large that voted for us did it for specific reasons and every one of those doors we knocked on had very specific complaints right and that's not confusing what caused that right that's true I had the same issue need to have months of workshops with the public to figure out how to address density it's very obvious what changed in our code so if we can agree on a schedule to do an addition Workshop meeting everyone's schedule and that might work that might get us closer to the March deadline that's all I'm asking for rather than in February we're forced because we didn't do the extra word trcks we didn't have an extra meeting on the agenda amendments are done all the time two meetings ago there was an amendment on um a Friday adding something to the agenda on Monday so it's not impossible right now we can always amend stuff to the agenda it's not that's not the issue it's that what was added for Monday two weeks ago was because obviously the county was hearing it the following day but we didn't have to draft any code it was just a oneline item hey board what do you want to do that's easy having your workshops that's easy too because it's just showing up in hearing from you guys the hard part is taking what you said back and writing that code and so that's where we need what you said to be finished because if we have another Workshop then the commission says something that's different than what happened before now it's you know we need to wait to start writing that code to make sure that that's what the commission's doing and so it's like you know for example we get here today and and we're already talking about not doing chapter 3 but doing chapter six and so and that's great and it's the discretion of the board but we really can't write the code you want us to write until you guys vote and say okay we're done talking about this subject we want you to draft the code based upon what we've said so if we finish parking this morning relatively you can move on and write that and then maybe we do that by I I'm happy to do this every Thursday till March so you know whatever it takes yes I I'm also willing whatever it takes to get us Thursdays is thanksgiv other than well other than the actual holiday for sure unless when you're finished eating your turkey you'd like to show up here I'll have the uh the desserts ready okay so I I quickly just want to say I spoke to Walmart yesterday and they're basing this expansion uh on the fact that Nationwide they've had an increase in online orders and a decrease in um foot traffic so they're feeling that they don't need any extra parking I explained to them that the steuart Walmart is a different situation they may have individual orders online but we always have a crowded parking lot and so if the parking changes maybe they just have to reconfigure their expansion space that's thank you who has a what not get into it yep let's go so you guys want to jump to rather than chapter three are there any other comments I'd like to make okay I believe city manager you um yeah the reason we're having these problems is because and I've said this from the beginning this whole processes backwards that we went to the zip without during the workshops without talking to the community without doing our due diligence and so we find ourselves in this very compressed time frame which without the ability uh to listen to who we should be listening to and understand the complexity of this issue and the impact uh as Mr mortell pointed out if we're not careful you're going to create problems for businesses uh if they want to sell their property and um it's a different use the owner additional parking requirements are just going to freeze businesses in place and really great uh burden um how comp you know just parking when you're talking about parking and not the overall issue of what we're trying to accomplish as a city with so what you should be considering is and we talk about decreasing parking it's actually increasing parking we're talking about Paving the city putting down a lot more concrete creating a lot more heat island a lot a lot more asphalt a lot less permeable surface there's no constituent I talked to who felt that we need that's where we needed to go but you have you have higher parking requirements you have higher development costs um I heard today that Ocean Point that affordable housing right in our neighborhood commissioner go yeah that's I can't believe it's been 30 years but those rents are going to double so you want affordable housing I hear about the need for affordable housing all the time the worst thing you can do is to hire uh require more parking you're going to end up small lot it's not going to work with single lot you're going to get big developers come in here who can buy three or four Lots in order to accommodate that parking requirement and make very expensive Apartments like right over here by by Riverwalk obviously it's encouragement of car dependency I only one of the primary complaints I hear is traffic you want to increase traffic and make sure our only alternative is is create more parking loss of usable land loss of Green Space loss of parks loss of Plaza uh environmental impacts they're very substantial anal very substantial when you increase the parking reduce public trans Transit options increase traffic and congestion economic in inequity again if you start mandating additional parking it's only the wealthiest most expensive developments that are going to be able to come in here uh aesthetic and Community impact absolutely I I just I don't know you look at the Lowe's parking lot if you look at the Walmart parking lot if you look at the Public's parking lot these are overpark they are not full at any time during the day they just aren't and if you're going to make that claim and this is what we're lacking is we haven't done these traffic studies we haven't seen the reports we don't we shouldn't be guessing at this we should be knowing it and um I my experience and the people I talk to is most of these parking lots most of these asphalt uh areas are empty during the day and opportunity costs of course again what you're doing you're just putting a piece of asphalt there what of what value is that to our community was what value is that to our city to our children so I'm saying these are just some of the elements we need need to consider when we talk about parking it's certainly not all of them but these are complicated issues that we should have discussed in depth prior to imposing this burden on the city and its businesses and let's hope we can move forward effectively In This Very compressed time of fray commission c yeah with all due respect that is complete nonsense and you know that you know this okay when we allow these developments to go in without upholding parking with having these loose or weak parking requirements it allows for more density you do not have to be able to park your project people are going to come and they're going to come with cars and whether they can park them on that particular lot will be the issue so you're going to have uh parking that overflows if there is more density if there are more doors there going to be more people and they're going to have cars and it puts more pressure around everywhere else so making sure that if you know by right or even um within a PUD there is more expectation to be able to park a development it's going to naturally naturally lead to it being less dense which is why Kev Freeman and Mike Meyer and Merritt mat were all pushing for Less parking requirements and more density which is the opposite of what the people who live here want thank you commission so uh you have any comments Mr Mortel I don't no um so it's the pleasure of the board um obviously the development director was anticipating starting at chapter 3 but I know Chris knows how to use a computer and can just as easily scroll to chapter six right now and we can um and I'm talking about Chris mcraine um We There It Is Magic um and we can address and go through and when you read it here it says on-site and offsite development standards there are things other than parking in chapter 6 but to give the staff direction to really get started on something it probably is consistent with doing chapter 2 and chapter six because they're both interconnected and then coming back and doing chapter 3 because it has its own rules and everything anyway so it this probably is the uh Direction but I again it's the pleasure of the board and also concurrency so like chapter four we would need at least well right except for chapter 4 is written in concurrency afterward has to be met but the state changed the concurrency regulations anyway so chapter 4 isn't as significant as it was and the city actually has concurrency as it relates to Road capacity water capacity sewer capacity police and fire capacity and therefore by default we're meeting those regardless if you guys make changes or not okay so and so your increases aren't going to increase the the the development they're they're going to potentially decrease development So in theory it would mean that there's even more capacity or more concurrency anyway so I'm not as worried about chapter 4 right being in CS but we will when we bring it back to you be addressing how they relate with each other once we get your guys' comment um so if we start with chapter 6 we can just um I'm sorry no right yeah yeah I'm sorry do we have any comments from the public on well I'm sorry let's get approval of the agenda we have a a motion from commissioner Clark and from commissioner Reed all in favor I thank you sir do we have any comments from the public on non-agenda item I do okay I have Ronnie Kirkman yeah I would think it's this is the public is it regard to the zip sir okay then that's an agenda item okay so any oh okay so then you don't want to just let him speak I thought well you guys can have the public comment before or after you vote it's up to you it's a pleasure of the board let speak okay sir it's the pleasure of the board to hear you good morning Ronnie kirchman kirchman construction I'm a second generation contractor in Martin County my office is located within the city of Stewart we've been in business in Martin County since 1971 um I am a commercial general contractor I am not a developer I do not build storage units I do not build um um um high density multif family type projects however what's going on right now is affecting my business substantially I'm losing probably close to $4 million in volume as as we go on right now I have projects right now I am building a project on Ocean Boulevard which I have a permit we're going on it was the old Burger King project that project is now going to be something for people to drive by and look at and be proud of and city of steart what it was before was a disgrace an ugly looking Burger King building built back in 1980 or so um I'm just standing before you guys to urge you guys to look at businesses within the city of Stewart to look at us and I don't know maybe just I'll be honest with you you can make your changes but to put a complete stop on construction within the city of steart is nonsense thank you thank Deb frower it's Frasier Deb Frasier thank you for letting me address you I appreciate all the comments this morning I am the executive officer of the Treasure Coast Builders Association I also have with me the executive officer of the Gold Coast um Builders Association because it also affects uh people in the Palm Beach Jupiter area as well what's going on in Stewart and what I would like to suggest or offer is if the commission would be willing to sit down with the Builders Association in fact I have a Builders uh council meeting at 11:30 today and find out what's happening uh to our Builders and what the effects of the moratorium have had and I think they're probably effects that weren't even realized when you went to effect I understand exactly what you're trying to do and I appre apprciate what you're trying to do but I think the moratorium has had effects that maybe you aren't aware of or weren't even thinking of when you when you did that so I would like to suggest that the commission sit down with myself and some of my builders that are doing uh projects on vacant properties and those kind of things that um you could understand the reverberating effect that it's having so I would like to ask that of the commission and thank you for letting me speak well well I in essence we're all listening to here but I would I I have done that with many business organizations and I would have to say that the only way to do that would be to call a noticed meeting because it would violate Sunshine for the board to sit no I was going to suggest that you call each individual commissioner and ask to meet with them and hopefully they will take the time to listen to your concerns I have Sam Yates you state your name and address sir yes good morning Sam Yates 1400 Southwest belgrave Terrace Stewart Florida I am the executive officer for the Gold Coast Builders Association and I want to Echo everything that devb just said I'm rather unique because in addition to being the executive officer for a multi-county Builders organization I am native to the area sixth generation I have seen steward when it was in blight I have seen Stuart when development or any word of building anything was a bad word whether you call it moratorium or call it zip the business Community is really really you know angry over what has been going on here I also wear another hat former journalist and listening to some of the conversations this morning a headline comes to mind Zip Zap plans I think everybody is sort of in a Limbo by this moratorium and zip has Zapped plans for everyone going forward so I urge you to get to a conclusion on it as soon as possible so that you do not continue hurting businesses in Stewart thank you you I have Kai mayo and Dan raon hello everyone Kai Meo resident of Martin County born and raised here 882 Northeast KY Senda Jenson Beach Florida um yeah I'm another one affected um I own a piz in Jensen Beach recently bought a piece of property on Martin Luther King Jr um a couple months ago extremely affected by this um I have a mortgage tens of thousands dollars worth of equipment I just want to move forward in this process I have a 700 SQ foot building no new Footprints no new parking requirements this is simple use chain from a office building to a takeout restaurant as that no new occupancy load nothing this a simple change being affected greatly financially and uh we need clarification on this and we need a a resolution on thank you thank you for your time I'm Dan Braden my office is at 417 coconut Avenue and I've been here since the 60s and the problem with his Pizzeria is that we're ready to do it it doesn't affect anybody there's seven parking spaces on site and we are basically next door to the elections office so there's an entire public parking lot across the street yall need to put some sort of Gap bill in this situation so we can at least go through our permit process and be ready to I mean we're not in there's no impact of this project except for on my client I think you need to come up with some sort of stop gap for the next month or so Mike I I've actually had questions about this where it's footprint versus use change is there a way we could that was the main thing Ry was just to do a garage door and a path and a sign and a driveway so it wasn't it was just there was it was actually no where there's no footprint change and you're just when Dixie is no footprint change to so I mean it's totally I proposed last and you guys said no um it was what we proposed last time was if it was a PUD who allow it to move forward so it could start being reviewed and it would come before the commission anyway so you guys had the discretion to deny it the only difference is though once they make the application the application is based on the code that exists on the day the application is submitted so so the parking requirements would right so like as it related to the Ry rug there was some comments about okay well why don't we let him go forward as long as the new buyer agrees to be subject to the new code right well but the buyer wouldn't do that because you can't get title insurance to buy something that you don't know what the use is going to be in the future and you also don't know what the value is or what whether you're going to be able to use it for what your intented purpose is so you can't do it that way it's got to be if you lift an exception Whatever Gets applied for falls under the the current code so what do I tell the pizza guy I'm sorry what do I tell the pizza guy who's got thousands of dollars of equipment sitting there waiting to go into a building where you want this kind of stuff and it has no impact on anything except for him how could we parcel that out Mike to where it would be well you could you could I don't know anything about the pizza guy and I don't know anything about not specific for his project I'm saying we're not changing the footprint where where What's happen building a new building sounds like but I mean he's going to do a build out 117 South whatever MLK it's exist it's an existing 700 foot building youth right now it's an empty office space so office versus restaurant it's not a there's no dining in this place that would be the problem Park it's take out only there's no ding that's still parking calculation traffic it meets the parking calculation I'm not trying to get into a specific project okay let's let's let's this gentleman finish are you done with your remarks sir I guess okay so let us talk thank you so for what it's worth Mr bradden's correct it's not a this individual project is really not a big deal and under normal circumstances would go through however the owning in progress tells staff that anything other than single family home is not allowed to be processed and as a result we don't get to decide if 700 square feet is small enough versus 7,000 square F feet is small enough where do you draw the line in the how we what I'm asking you is how do we parcel it out then and and have it not apply to like existing commercial that is trying to change the use but not the footprint well no increase in intensity but when you're saying not increase the footprint if I have sing count office that has one person that goes to work every day and that office doesn't change at all but instead an orthopedic surgeon takes up space in that office right and has 50 patients a day the change of use by its very nature under those circumstances in increases it dramatically quite frankly a drive through pizza place is going to increase what was previously office is it significant enough to make any difference probably not but staff doesn't get to make the call of course so that's so you you would say it would be within a PUD application in the meantime at least that application could come through if it if you if you guys made a exception to the zoning in progress that allowed a PUD what was proposed last meeting was any PUD application that did not include any residential in it so there would be no mixed use projects no multif family projects but only straight commercial projects but more specifically what I'm talking about is a commercial use yes but that doesn't expand the footprint that is changing not expand the foot changing the use is allowed but not not changing the structural footprint like we're not adding driveways driveways like parking spaces like if if adding parking space but it has parking space no I don't know that we haven't done the calculation yet that would not count it's satis yes if I could that if I could clarify so this particular property is located in East Stewart which is in your Urban overlay uh so they would come in they would have to have a minor side plan Amendment and they would have to meet the new guidelines within East Stewart neighborhood within form based code with form based code yes Jody just to make a clarification this is actually in the creek District I'm sorry in the creek District sorry but do you know what I'm saying Mike where we're anything that's not structurally enlarging like not not a driveway or adding you know just the footprint the Remy rug and the wind Dixie that are not structurally changing are being are they do have effects on parking so but that would come in front of us in the form of the Pud wheny was straight could we have that in the meantime well that's what we said yes the The Proposal I age that that is reasonable if you guys say a proposal that if it's a PUD then if it's if it's PUD that doesn't include residential then it could go forward and be processed but I don't want that to be the exception I want it to be that's not it's only changing use and not footprint not just that it's not including multifam but when you say not changing re structural we still require a minor site plan but he's going to say we're accept it but I just want to make sure that you don't care like I agree with you on the multi sing component every single project requires a site plan right if the site plan's different than the old site plan is that changing the footprint if they're structurally adding to the footprint you're talking about the versus use versus yeah well is it is it square footage of air condition SP or is is it adding a patio or is it adding we don't have a way to parcel out structural versus use well we do but what's going to happen is if somebody comes in for example Ronnie um talked about the building that he's building on East Ocean Boulevard let's assume he left it like the like the Burger King the reality of it is is that a a restaurant use versus the studio use is a completely different use St then has to go in and look at it say okay well under the if it's the overlay Zone well you have to have 10 foot wide sidewalks and you have to have shade trees and you have to have this that and the other and is widening the sidewalk increasing the thing I don't know I mean I I don't think so personally I don't think it's a big deal but that's something that we can parcel out in that PUD when it's in front of us certainly yeah that's but I mean you could that's the point of that was the point of suggesting the exception to just commercial and um just commercial PS with no residential in it but if you're saying no construction we're not at and we're not expanding the physical footprint at all yeah I mean you guys can do whatever you want so I mean we could parcel that we can as long as the that the point of this is not to box them out you know if you're just converting it from one use to a different use that's ridiculous but I know that there's another person that we've gotten an email on that wants has Office Space wants to add an additional use to their office space so it's not going to increase their building footprint right but it is going to change their parking requirements but if we accept their application that they're under the current part they're not under the new part we could say that comes in front of us to approve or not well it would have to be PUD would they couldn't go straight zoning it'd have to come for PUD unless they wanted to wait right right I think that's an opportunity here can we can we construct language that would be acceptable to commissioner Collins to allow these fairly straightforward simple projects to move forward I I'm hearing an exception for any PUD that doesn't include residential and doesn't increase the intensity or square footage of the building intensity in for in the form of structural structure right I mean obviously changing it from a lawyer's office to a doctor's office might increase the number of patients but it's not changing the square footage from 1500 ft to 1500 ft now the distinction being if it's a restaurant right now that has 30 seats and it wants to be a restaurant with 30 seats and also at a patio with 70 seats I want everybody to be clear that that's increasing the intensity and that's not we're not going there but we would we would be able to review that well the staff wouldn't accept that PUD application because that would have to wait until afterwards to pursue but if it's not adding that patio then we would process the Pud and it would come before the commission can we make a motion in this Workshop M has a question just just so you're clear this particular property is not a PUD today well it will be it would need to be coming as a PUD right and we could accept that out what you're saying is the exception but realistically if it comes in as a PUD today it's likely not going to get before the commission before February right but at least there's the well that's sooner than March right but it's also very expensive it's very expensive compared to straight zoning I it's probably $20,000 more okay [Music] so so then not having straight Tony so lifting lifting the where the use is changing but so the making exception to the anybody who wants to increase the book that would have to wait and then we do straight but like Ry rug could go forward when Dixie go forward Ramy was adding a driveway and thing they were they weren't inreasing the use well that's true they weren't increasing the use that was no structural impact there was no increase at all it wasn't changing the building at all so I don't know I mean that's why I'm asking I want to make sure that that's what you're talking about yes and when Dixie um was straight zoning that was it wasn't changing the it wasn't changing the intensity is what I'm it falls into it huh I'm sorry Ry rug is a PUD okay but I was I didn't care if it was R rug they're not coming forward anyway I think it's over with I was just using it as an example to make sure I understood they've lost yeah the buyer went away um uh so um we could do so if the board there a motion to do you see any unintended consequences with that mic well the the if it's just changing the uned consequences that they they follow the old code but it I don't think it I overall I don't think it's going to make a measurable difference I don't think anybody will will notice as long as we're not changing the structural footprint our code is already just use already designed to make it very difficult to go straight zoning now this pizza example happens to be in the creek District which is new so it has a path to go straight zoning but if you're on US1 or you're in the the downtown area most of the code is written to where they end up having to come before the commission to wave something anyway but I as a result I think great zoning if without increasing the the square footage is going to be so nominal you guys don't even doesn't make difference and also like you said residential component both of those things I think that's already right I would be totally open to that okay there of new Ecom and I know that people want to continue to move ahead um if we do have people come in on a Case by casee basis and if whenever that property changes the use or has some increase in density in the future then they'd have to apply they have to meet the new code that we set whether we set that code in February or March of 2025 that's the case without a zoning in that's what I'm saying let's continue to help people to move along I I think we can get people to move forward while we're in this process but so um you what I'm hearing for the clerk's benefit is the the commission is uh somebody might make a motion to make an exception to the zoning in progress to allow any commercial projects without residential that do not increase the square footage of the structure to move forward for processing I'd like to make that second we have a motion by commissioner Clark and a second by commissioner Collins is there any public first would I just have clarification with that then they can we can accept a minor site plan amendment that meets these guidelines yes okay just want to clarify that are you comfortable with that I am is there any public comment on this motion I do have not read your lips Mr Bren would you like to comment on this come back and comment um any comments or discussion by the Commissioners no excuse me mayor I do have a few additional public comments on this specific motion no okay well we're talk we're dealing with this motion at vote and then go back yeah we can um I thank the commission for realizing problems we created and trying to help people out and move forward and so roll call please commissioner Reid yes commissioner Collins yes commissioner goob yes commissioner Clark that's you I say yes did you lock out no all you did was second are you voting commissioner CL she yes mayor Rich yes hey com so I guess right let's continue with public comments mad CL Marcel camper good morning Commissioners um forgive me but my first words are going to be a little bit of anger um as a professional in the matter we spend what 30 minutes talking about the fact that the city of Stewart will be able to do a complete code overhaul I don't know by who staff in two weeks um 30 years experience doing this I don't know if anyone that has done this in two weeks if so if you're capable of doing it in two weeks why did the East Stewart code take two years why did the district take as long as it as it took what if what if um you know what if some of these changes and I know some of the things you're mentioning require comprehensive plan amendments we haven't even factored that in what are we going to do adopt a code that is inconsistent with the compl plan and I would like an answer for that please for the record given that someone is serious enough to have a court reporter here um you know so again continuing first with my anger before any of my professional input matters um gosh mentioning that we would like to keep properties hostage I own 14 properties in the city I was saying we would not want to keep no you said we can check with a Port court reporter I was trying to give we continue to keep them hostage please um just for clarification it was also said that we if we are not continuously bogged by public comment Florida Statutes 28614 protects public comment there's a double standard when we have applicants here especially in East Stewart we are required to have Community input we are required to have Community agreement not just people we can come and tell you guys we got a mandated and knocked on doors without providing a list because I don't know what that list is and if the city is going to continue to accept one person's mandate based on knocking on doors please provide that because when we have public meetings we have to State our name I'm sorry Marcel camor 47 um East or West OFA Street and where is that what are we basing it on and if if that list is not because I don't know know I just checked the public records 96 voters doesn't seem like a public mandate to me and they're not here you should check their campaigns and they're not here I well they're not the ones saying public mandate and forgive me is this my time or yours if you're gonna say that kind of thing I'm gonna get back at Comm Collins I'm sorry public comment please finish Marcel finally hard not to be angry um can we please have some legal opinion about what it takes to render properties nonconforming reducing the parking using personal opinion and not the it standards which is what the city is required to do you're required to use some professionally approved standard um would render your office non-conforming and Kingswood non-conforming and your child Care Center not conforming aside from all of my properties as well um how are how are we going to handle this unless like the um the city manager is saying okay if we do it for for for properties in the future and I would ask you please as our ldr state and as our comp plan States and it's as the statute state that we use professionally accepted data for everything not just my opinion is the Walmart parking lot is full our Walmart is different finally I agree with you form follows parking and we have way too long also without analyses allowed projects to move forward with variances on parking I can guarantee you that if those variances on parking were not provided a lot of the buildings would not look like they look today if a lot of the buildings were not allowed to move forward with standard um tandem parking and counting on street parking spaces that we all know are being used by others it wouldn't look that way so a simple thing to do rather than rendering the entire city of Stewart non-conforming and entering into this hornets nest just like the previous commission did when they said we are not converting any more commercial to residential and the Commissioners took a oath you could say we will not Grant any more parking Varian es and test it our parking is higher than most places our problem is through all these puds every single PUD has granted variances on parking thank you can I just remind the Commissioners during public hmit we all suffer being addressed personally and being accused of this or that and it is not this is not the venue the for for engag in with in back and forth if you wish to address the concerns of any public speaker the clerk has a record of their name address and phone number and you may reach out to them in private and speak with them otherwise we risk descending into confusion and getting way off the agenda so I would thank my fellow Commissioners for adhering to that decorum next please Madam clerk I have duet hello DEET price 2574 Wind Drive Stewart well unfortunately Marcel just took half of my talking points but uh I will tell you the gentleman said he's a reporter and if you had to tell you the title I'll tell you my title for the the uh front page would be Commissioners say we will whole city hostage no that's what it was said will hold the city hostage until we get this done so until that person gets what they want I guess we are held hostage one of the things I want to make sure as we're looking at code right and we're looking at making everything non-conforming you know talk about parking I was driving down the street the other day I was coming from the gym and I drove down the street I think it was like Flamingo and I went by a home where it's like built to this to basically the property line for shrubs cars parked in the roadway and now I've got to figure out how move around this car as other cars are coming will we address that we've got Condo building over off Olan that I know that today if we make these CH parking requirements they become non-conforming what happens when they go in for roof replacement or they go for window replacement does that impact that and if it does I want them to be also be brought up to code which means we're eliminating a building or two I'm happy with that that's the way we're going to do this code office building we talk about that you know we've got public parking and we know there are certain Office Buildings and I think with the city's code they allow people to use street parking to help them for their own parking within their structures so staff and members off that bu office park on the street where the public is supposed to park instead of parking on your site do we want to look at that so as we're looking at these different items that you wish to eliminate or change in the code I will tell you that staff is saying they're going to try and do this and two three weeks or the commission hopes staff we can do this in a couple of weeks I'm sorry city manager mortell I know you're great at what you do I've done this for over 30 years around the country if you guys can get it done God bless you I want to hire you I will take you on a road trip and take you to cities to show them how to do that it will never happen guys never couple of weeks back we told you about the in consequences that may occur you're having it happen right now and you spent about an hour and a half trying to figure out out how to get a pizza guy who's straight zoning telling him he needs to come in as a PUD he's now going to have to go pay for plans maybe two three grand pay the application fee another two three grand then come in and try and go through this process which will be a couple of months while he may have to use a land use attorney another couple of grand so for $155,000 to something that he should really be able to get done straight guess what he's held hostage until he pays that 15 grand to come in front of you with a PUD structure to get his pizza plate proof that ain't how this works you guys really need to think about this if you don't know get educated before you're making these little grocery lists it's not that simple and I hate hearing them saying that this is so simple it is not and I it just it's like a repeating effect and I'm like guys if you don't know it before you come to the meeting please get information so we don't look so idiotic up here in the public realm thank you I have Ben Talbert my name is Ben Talbert um 1084 Northeast Industrial Boulevard Jensen Beach local Marine contractor kind of mimic M perchman here perchman c um I have a project here in the city of Stewart super proud of it a small crew of guys we employ 15 people as a general contractor though it's different we employ our people um I have a boat ramp we're trying to build at a local working Boatyard not a Marina uh simple for the boat yard to be able to use their trailers their trucks to get boats in and out to serve the community better that's been held up in variant for months and it's uh it's getting extremely frustrating I'm gotten getting the feeling since I attended this meeting uh Pizza Guy Kai here friend of mine said Hey youall to come check this out and see see what's going on I have a feeling the parking and so on that's being discussed and I sound ignorant saying this but is hindering up my project which is starting to frustrate me more so because it hinders up my crew tenders up my people from working that we employ we don't use a lot of subcontractors we use one electrical subcontractor I'm not electrician um I'd like to see something happen with my project specifically but I'm also mimicking Mr kirchman Kai here where it's it's actually affecting more than just my business and my bottom line my guys that actually need that affordable housing they're going to need even worse because they cannot work I've got no job for him because my other crews are doing other stuff I've never seen such a pain with trying to get a boat ramp for boat yard use not for public use approved as just for literally putting boats in and out of the water as needed so they can be serviced by other you know professions Motor Service fiber glass service stuff like that um small little Spiel again forgive me my ignorance but I wanted to kind of bring that to the attention it affects everything downhill that everybody's always trying to fix as well that's all sir what's the address of the Boatyard in the it's the marina right on the entrance to Haney Creek oh okay I know where it is Central Marine sir thank I have no more mayor we have no more public okay well would you like Chris we can go back to CH six okay yeah Mr Mayor go ahead Mr baggot I just want to let you know I I was late because I had to be in court and the judges Mak him he continued the hearing till 10:30 so I'm going have to leave in a few minutes for about 20 minutes I need to leave right now yeah by thank you is this a case of concern to the city it's not significant but it's a city it's the police department yeah good luck Mr thank you um so U the suppose the easiest way is just um if you you know obviously the initial part of every chapter is kind of the uh description of the intent and the principles for of development and design obviously um are laid out um as you see in that 63 it we be up a little bit we go on you see that it it mentions to avoid unnecessary impervious surface cover provide adequate access to lots and sites and to avoid adverse effects of Shadow glare noise odor traffic drainage and utilities on surrounding properties reason I want to point that out to you is that as we're going through this chapter obviously the intention of the regulation at all you know when you think about like Martin County H sound Stewart and Vinson Beach were built without any zoning at all the reason why is because the people that were building them built them out of necessity and they built them to use and consume for themselves there wasn't a you know that's what they were for but over time you found like the Hilton or the the fountain blue in Miami Beach was a big case because they got they built that hotel and it's a shadow from that hotel blocked out the pools of the people next door and things of that nature so you start getting these regulations to try and not impact your neighbor um one of the big things that we run into in the city um obviously is we have some we've added some significant drainage requirements but also the curb cuts that we every single person that wants to do projects in the city wants to do more curb Cuts than we allow now um when you when you're considering the parking consider when you have increased parking are we going to also increase curb cuts to allow the flow of traffic in that and and I don't think most of our projects are going to have huge parking lots so it shouldn't be very big deal but those curb huts on the streets become significant um as we scroll down if you can a little bit um obviously the intentions to maintain natural condition provide screening and buffering keep going um and these are all uh the intentions of the past obviously pedestrian circulation is always very significant to us and these are all the different U things staff looks at as it relates to um every project and then Transportation Systems gets in we start talking about streets and boulevards and widths of the streets and private streets and sidewalks associated with them and setbacks and rideways and arterials and highways and then going down to the rides way we have ride of ways that are currently used ride of ways that aren't used and then rideways that are used for utilities and sidewalks and bikeways I don't know that you guys want to make any changes to those no um pedestrian access for large scale development seems to be in order as well um it's um and then here's where uh we require this is just this chart is requirement of benches and other pedestrian amenities basically that um and the larger scale developments are all PUD anyway right so you can keep scrolling down I don't think we need to um then access um back when the original reg of the code came in the early 2000s it was u a direction of staff to or the city to require like on the US one on on caner and on major thoroughfares that the lots have a interconnection so that cars didn't have to go out on to us one to get next door to the thing and if you go like by the mall you can see you can go to Panera Bread and then you can go over to The Men's Warehouse in the next Plaza down without actually going on to us one because the intention was to let cars have that interconnected access to avoid the traffic on the roads I I mentioned that because um as we get into this you be addressing those issues um so scroll down a little bit more standards for drive-thru facilities obviously the city has taken a approach on dri s just1 it says says Reserve which one Reserve um it's the I don't know if it's who wrote it and put that in there but it's that there's nothing else like they were reserving the space to come back and address it we're going to have more language added P left intentionally BL is that what it means exactly you know access to residential lots Reserve so what are we going to is there going to be more to that or less to that and we haven't found a need for it one way or the other um and then drive-through facilities uh the city has areas that it doesn't allow the drive-throughs and then um areas where it does but they're Limited and then here's the requirements for those um for example if you the pizza place if it's going to be a drive-through pizza then it's going to have six minimum spaces required on the site I don't have any idea how many parking spaces are on the site like the old Wendy's that site is difficult because it can't St right well it has terrible drivethru space right um and drive-throughs generally um don't don't work that well with pedestrians but um overall they obviously it's there's essential needs and people use them regularly and the City of Stewart has a drive-through window to pay your water bill so we recognize that they're real but this shows the requirement of six parking spaces for drive-throughs autom teller machine has three bank teller Lane has three if you want to change anything as it relates to drive-throughs and then also the the h space shall be a minimum of 10 ft wide by 20 ft long um and uh obviously divined defined in painted and then it also has to have a bypass lane 12 feet wide to get around those people in line thinking about the Wendy's if people were trying to get through um hearing no comments from the board on any drive-through stuff we can move to the next thing um non-residential vehicle vehicular access we have to have fire and garbage trucks at a minimum from the city's perspective that have to get through and then you also have like the delivery uh mail and Amazon and things of that nature now um we have those addressed if I don't know that it's an issue for you guys and then we get to probably what we're here for this is 60109 which is the Stuart parking code um as you can see it's broken into two things a is what it applies to but it's one is Construction of new building or structure on unimproved real property or two the construction of a new addition to an existing building or structure on improved real property um three is changes in use uh including changes in the intensity of an existing use and this is the debate we were just having a little while ago is if you have the same footprint but you change the use you can significantly change a uh traffic flow or um need for parking obviously we had this at the beginning of the summer I think it was when the restaurant at 101 Colorado not restaurant the property at 101 Colorado came in and wanted the commission to Grant an exception to allow it to be a restaurant on the water there on Colorado and seminal in the seminal neighborhood came in and was very vocal about it um and didn't didn't want it because that in use although the building was in theory going to stay the same was going to really increase the intensity um so if you read B no certificate of occupany shall be issued for any portion or phase of development uh to which the parking code applies until all required parking and loading space all required Landscaping have been installed this plays a role in the decision the board is going to have to make not today but how we apply these changes are they going to make everybody non-conforming and then any changes have to be brought in to bring them into compliance for example the pizza guy if he goes forward makes application opens up and his building is open and then you guys adopt this code and then he comes back and wants to put a picnic table outside to let people eat there and the code requires double the parking he'll have to then build double the parking in order to have that pic aable go there um again that's that's a very common way the the code works and we'll address it um or you can code can be more complicated and we can say only they don't they don't need to because when I say you have to bring more parking right now if you brought the picnic table it would be four seats which would go one space but if you guys changed the code if he brought the picnic table in he would also have to include all the square footage of the building that was built already even though it was already built and how many spaces that equates to based upon the new code which might equal three spaces instead of one so it could I mean the Peril here it reminds me Mr Morell of when um Florida provided when they froze existing homeowners taxes and initially we all got stuck in our houses and no no existing homeowner was going to sell their house and move to a more expensive home because of the low tax rate they enjoyed and of course they made an amendment to I think you write the portability so I the Peril here is these poor businesses right if they want to make the smallest Improvement they're enjoying success and want to expand to a very small degree you're saying even the presence of a picnic table could could trigger bringing the whole thing into comp yeah because if they great which actually they would not do that right because of the expense certainly and right now if somebody comes in and says we are not going to have any tabl then they don't have any taable sailor Jolly Sor saor returns whatever it's called its parking is based upon 202 chairs inside the restaurant I can't tell you the number of times our code enforcement has been over there and done the you added 40 extra chairs of course they didn't add the 10 parking spaces and we play this cat and mouse game with that and you go to kabas and Fresh Market or not Fresh Market and um what's the seafood one that's the same chain fresh cat or what is it FR no it's um bone fit um the outdoor dining there that wasn't right that was that wasn't there when they got approved right so every one of those chairs technically is non-compliant and kaba's outdoor dining I bet you there's 60 seats in in that outdoor dining area that are that weren't approved and that parking lot didn't include when they built that restaurant now reality of it is is kabas has a humongous parking lot it everybody that goes there it doesn't flood over under the neighboring parking lots and they all wait around so it really hasn't been any kind of burden to anybody and we haven't done anything but if robis were to want to add a shed out back or an expansion we would then come in and act all of that parking plus any new parking would have to be done and when we go forward Well for now we're talking about the parking but we also have to remember the perious impervious as well because an average parking space is between 250 and 300 square feet of hardened surface um anyway let's keep going forward um I don't the the parking go applies to vacant building as of July 1 1995 and this is where we get into the what they did the same thing then obviously they're adding parking and then they said you know if it remains unoccupied for one year the parking does not apply development for which a building permit was issued prior to May 1 1995 unless such development becomes vacant for 365 days and obviously that date we're going to have to go through and we'll have the same thing for this new code so that if you're just somebody minding your own business and you haven't made any changes at all you can't get code enforced in two years because you don't have enough parking in your property because obviously the new code will make everybody not a compliance um going forward um obviously we'll take the 1995 out um and I'm I'm not sure if it really even makes a difference now but we'll have to review it probably have to keep both dates in and then um it says it applies to the urban district and then rules for computing parking requirements this is where it starts getting complicated obviously fractional we round up so when we're in math class it used to be 2.4 equal 2 and 2.7 equals 3 in in parking in density 2.1 equals 3 it doesn't say round up it says the nearest tole number so 2.01 is two but that's the nearest whole number okay and but we've seen how I we watch it and obviously staff's recommendation will come in as a straight whole number but um and very few very few times we have Straight Zone um the number of required parking and loading spaces for use not specifically listed um shall be determined by the development director and Jody what's the what do you guys use to determine parking is the the it what what is it Institute of traffic engineering that's a uh code that it's evaluated every two years and they bring out the data that's the and the different types of uses and any New Uses as well so for what it's worth the it is a National Standard and it's a parking that the staff has and can look at if it's not listed in our code but if it is listed in our code we go to what our code say um for years staff has suggested that we switch to the it and just as it gets updated we just our code says parking for the it that would be less restrictive than the direction we're going right now but I just mentioned to you because the IDE is out would be I I don't honestly know um specific details on it but I anticipate that right um but when we come back with the resolution and like present it to you guys we'll have the it as part of the packet so you guys can okay evaluate it um C this happens very often for proper to clarify is that done on a regional basis or Nationwide or n Nationwide it's Nationwide yeah which is why we should not be married to it should be specific so in the it just so you know it's based off land use based off the traffic report that you receive or your uh consultant prepares um there's different types of of uses within it so if you have a code 210 no no I understand that yeah they're going to have the urban you know there's different types of of parking standards for different types of uses it's not just straight you know one like if you're in a rural area or if you're in a uh urban area or if you're in a uh industrial area so there is different requirements for that land use under 210 and it will show you the data for that's been prepared every two years and adopted this is Florida law or our comp plan require us to adhere to specifically States okay well that's what this says that the development director or the development department um it say director um so shall the number of required parking or use not specifically identified in our code shall be determined by the development director with reference to the listed use most similar in parking and loading needs to be unlisted uh for the listed use generally what they do if it's not listed is go to the it make the determination um but it's also very rare because in a second we're going to get to list you're going to see it fairly right um next one is for properties containing more than one use the number of required parking spaces is the cumulative number of spaces for all the uses so if I have a law office and a title company and they're both in the same building calculation would be the law office and then the calculation would be for the title company and that's the parking that's required under our code if people add businesses or uses they have to comply with whatever calculation that parking creates um the measurement of seats because restaurant parking is one parking space for four chairs in the past we've had people say a 10- foot wide bench is one chair and so now it says each 20 linear inches of benches of f shall be considered one seat so your 10t thing gets chopped up by 20in spaces to determine how many seats it activat um gross floor shall be used for computation over bases it's pretty straightforward greatest number of employees including owners managers present on premises at any one time shall be used for computation parking required for the staff and so for example a bank bank doesn't get to say that staff parking is what staff is on Saturday it's what's the parking on Friday or how many staff are there on Friday afternoon at 4:30 and bank is the busiest so that the arcing can absorb their intensity of use um for single family DW dwelling a dryway things are you know if you look at my old office the Wells bergo Building on US1 you know with so few people going into work now these are these are just asphalt wastelands um I think if we're wanted to make changes we should recognize that um I know just the building I was in number two it's over half empty pretty much yeah I mean I it's just there's an opportunity there in some sense I think we're going in the wrong direction uh with some of this so I'm sure the it is going to reflect that I know in the bigger cities certainly New York and Chicago there very very few people going down yes okay parking needs change um moving down single family just says the driveway can count as parking spaces um excess surface parking is discouraged so I don't know how you guys feel about it that's what the staff says or the code says and in no case shall the number of extra surface parkings exceed 10% or 10 spaces whichever is greater we get in situations all the time where um uh Costco for example one of the exceptions that Costco was seeking was to provide additional parking spaces at Costco so that they would provide sufficient so the board had to Grant excess parking um and uh otherwise so excess surf is parking Beyond what's required yeah so if we determine you need 40 spaces if you determine you need 40 spaces and you want to build 45 that's more than 10% and as a result you would have to have a commission approval for that now there's more than one way to skin a cat as they say all I would do is add another use I mean if I were the applicant you know you can make the parking be whatever you want um but anyway we'll keep going um electric charging stases um if electric charging stations are installed adjacent to parking spaces those spaces may still be counted stage required number of off street parking spaces that's really the only thing we have on electric charging the state um passed a law last year saying that uh cities and counties cannot require a um developer to include electric charging stations in their uh projects and as a result we didn't have anything that required It Anyway there was some reference in puds where some Commissioners had been asking for it this doesn't require it it simply says if you have it it counts as a parking space towards your parking count so it doesn't it's neutral on the state law so go down a little more you could um this is parking is not required in the old downtown district and it describes that um if the site of the principal use and the location of the required parking to serve the principal use are not contiguous and there is portion of the parking shall be located within 500 ft of the front entrance to the principal use you remember the restaurant at 101 Colorado wanted to use what used to be the sunrust bank building's parking lot for um its parking count and it was more than 500 ft away and as a result that had to go in front of the city commission if it's less than 500 feet away currently it can be administered administratively however when we do the evalu Val ation we evaluate as a shared parking for example when the 101 restaurant wanted to use parking for that uh at the bank building down the street it's no longer a Bank building it's a doctor's office now because the restaurant's primary times for parking needs would be really four in the afternoon until 11:00 p.m. and on weekends and The Business or the doctor's office primary needs for parking were from you know Monday through Friday 8 to five or whatever the numbers are standard business hours the city staff is able to do an evaluation and say well these two things are not going to conflict significantly and therefore we can accept a certain number of it we don't let people double and triple dip it's not like that doctor could sell the parking to the 101 and then sell it to another business and then another business and another business it's it's evaluated by staff however I know the last meeting one of the comments was that there should be no more shared parking requirements so one of the things that we would be coming forward is to address that as well based upon the board and that will be in the resolution first but the comment was made as related to shared between residential and Commercial under a mixed use calculation the reality of it is is that anytime you have the offsite parking using someone else's parking lot you find that it's a shared space there are some situations where the uh for example the hotel on Colorado Avenue it wasn't a shared parking it was actually parking in their parking garage that had been dedicated for that site when it was originally one project done by the Hayfield family when the r or whatever resolution trust courp RTC took over all the banks and stuff back in the '90s they chopped it up and sold that lot separately from the parcels but the lot was sold with specific parking rights to the garage and as a result they had dedicated off-site parking that was not shared commissioner G just a question regarding that hotel quickly is if that's correct then why would the hotel have to come before the commission to have side paring I think it was more than 500 ft away right yeah from the front door but that paring was irrevocably a signed right it was it had been counted and done as part of it right and it's a perfect example because it's office during the day and then well and in that situation hotels they Park most of their parking is not a night but in that situation it wasn't shared it was literally right design ated and if that hotel was an office building it wouldn't have made any difference because that site had a certain number of spaces dedicated under the original plan because it was planned I suppose when they did the whole project to be another building at some point and that's why they built the parking garage in the first um going on required parking space is located on the site of the principal use shall not be relocated elsewhere except by Major conditional approval which means go before the commission um ired parking spaces which are located on continuous property on the property within 500 ft of the site shall not be relocated to a more distant location from the site of the principal use as measured by a safe and convenient pedestrian route except by Major conditional approval um and next paragraph in January of 1988 the new use of property including the expansion intensification of and this is language again that we're going to be talking about with this code change we're going to have to have paragraph that talks about the 1998 code adoption has effects on certain businesses that were in place in 97 and then you'll have a 2024 paragraph similar to this that says in January 1st or February 1st 2024 a new use of property including the expansion or intensification of an existing use they result in an increase in the number of required parking spaces generated by uses of the property as determined in accordance with this code such additional spaces shall be located either on the side site principal use or on a property contiguous to the site of principal use or on property within 500 ft the front entrance use going forward the rou shall include appropriate signage delineate where the parking is in the event six or more of the additional required spaces will be located on property within 500 ft but not continuous to the site location of the six or more spes shall be approved by Major conditional use approval is by the city commission so wow that's why you always get it in front of you because the theory behind it is that if if if your parking is on site then you're not impacting your neighbors significantly whereas if your parking is six stop doors down and people are constantly parking and pulling in and out of there your property is impacting the neighbors and that's why the commission has to prove it that's obviously in place already um it'll probably the only change we'll have to make to that is January 12 1998 and the changes made in February 2025 and we'll have to make sure that there's some distinction between the two but we have to go through the whole code and find all these paragraphs that reference um the unity of title the issue Unity of title is an interesting subject because where civita is located civit was approved it got approved and started construction and where the lot next door to it is was supposed to be 23 parking spaces and when the recession hit a person bought the property from PNC bank and went to property appraiser and carved the property out right up to the building line of the Civ building and it didn't have any development rights other than the 23 parking spaces but it made the original civita have 100% pervious no UPL preservation no landscape no parking no setbacks anything and it obviously was a disaster the commission resolved it at a future hearing by incorporating the two together but what we require is when someone comes in to do a project with more than one parcel identification number we require them now to a Unity of title so that that can't happen so that someone can't shave it off and take advantage same thing has happened on other occasions throughout the city where someone has literally you know cut the up preservation off or whatever and then they build it and the the new project there's a house that was like a 1920s house on a 40 foot wide lot well the truth of it was that was really a 100 foot wide lot but the children of it cut a 60 foot wide parcel where a 50 foot wide was necessary and built their new house and then the older house that was already there when it came time to sell later was only 40 ft wide had to come before the commission to fix that but when it came in as a for review for staff all they saw was the site plan for the new parel that was cut and they see a 60 foot and they're looking at a 50 foot measurement it didn't break down and they didn't the the subdivision of the parcels the property appraiser at the time didn't even notify us of it it just happened property appraiser now does tell us about it and we we consider a a partial subdivision to be um it can't be uh done on your own like we don't we don't consider it to be something that people has as a matter of right unless they can create completely standard Lots with all of the subdiv subdivided Lots like if you had a 20,000 foot lot you could create two 10,000 square foot lots and that is you know our biggest lot size anyway and that would be legal but the idea that they start getting into these chopped up things is a process we come before the board on it for the bo of adjustment um shared parking and Joint uses I think I went over that significantly unless the commission has further comment on it I right now what my notes are is that the commission wants us to not allow shared parking for for residential or mixed use and that's it is that where we're at or is it more or less I think commercial that's incorporating right mied use just well I'm saying just commercial mixed use by its very Natures commercial and residential but I'm talking about for example the restaurant in the doctor's office that's commercial commercial sharings spk so that's not residential and I do you want us to include that or just the my FOC more multi family okay residential units combined with so a a a would not change then right a right 601 12 would be allowed to continue we won't have to edit it because it's 60112 is related to the uh requiring allowing shared spaces for another use kind of finding that the shared parking spaces are in close proximity readily accessible and or and the uses uh won't the PE parking doesn't overlap each other the only distinction is you're the board is going to be adding language here that would say other than residential Mike on the delineation with that AA Capital AA is that that some right that commun I don't know what you're oh okay yeah that'll be cured right I'm sure that that can be picked residential mixed VI right are you're just saying anything resal well in in most situations you wouldn't have two residentials sharing parking because the staff has to make a determination that they parking are different Peaks so if they're both residential they have the same Peak parking so it wouldn't happen anyway so the only time residential has shared parking is if it's mixed use um would well yeah we're going to get to that in a second we'll be getting the actual part of it scroll down a little more too so this is the parking standards you guys need to take a minute and read them and this is the table of current parking calculations that the city requires obviously single families say two per two per unit and then duplex two per unit multif family is 1 five per unit multif family dwelling units with two or more bedrooms sorry just go so based on request to add that more restrictive do we have an inventory of how many properties in the city would become nonperforming the well we'll do that when we come back with the resolution and address those issues with you but it would be significant it would be significant but if we do it just going forward from the day of adoption so that concern no matter what they be they become non-conforming they become non the question is the question is what triggers them needing to be to be the brought into compliance so for example a non-conforming mixed use development that's um let's say like down seminal Street you have the River House Condo I don't are the ones right behind black marlin they don't have a dock but I suspect in the next two or three years they're going to want to build a dock outside to have boats at their house well if they're a nonconforming use they have retail on the first floor and they have condos upstairs they will then have to build all the parking necessary for the retail on the first floor and if you guys make any changes to the code as it relates to the number of parking spaces that they um are required to have the new parking calculation will be based upon whatever that is but they're currently a PUD so it wouldn't matter however if they came in for a doc or I think they might have a doc AOW the Bea but assuming they didn't if they came in for the dock they'd need to do Amendment to the Pud when they came in for the amendment for the Pud the parking calculation done by staff would be the new number without allowing the shared parking and whatever new parking calculations should determine I think that they did have a dock in their approval so it doesn't matter so they can come in for a straight permit but if somebody right an example or somebody had a mixed use building and they wanted to add a pool that would be an expansion of the use because it's more space outside or whatever porch or anything like that that requires the compliance or for example the civit building across the street in the courthouse the patio that restaurant wanted to have outdoor dining if that had happened with a new parking code the entire building would have had to redo its calculation with no no shared parking between the top floor units and the commercial units and it would also have to do the calculations for whatever the new parking are but we'll bring those through with the resolution and and kind of describe them they're allowed to use non street parking well everybody has a certain amount of on street parking allowed based upon the spaces in front of their property what's used for the calculation is one thing reality is they've already used those on Street spaces in their calculation so if they wanted to do outdoor dining for example they would have to find new space to build new parking spaces because the requirement would be going up because the I think it's four units on the top floor didn't have parking required because the code allowed it to be waved so it would be at least eight spaces based upon that and then if there's any changes in the code it would also be whatever for the changes required I yeah I appreciate the comments that but I can't there's no way the record can pick it up the microphones and so it's impossible for us to do that um so in any event if if you guys want us to make any changes to these numbers we need to hear what you want them to be um the uh single family seems pretty self-explanatory do place the same way way multif family I think the 1.5 is based on the it but I don't know um and then um multif family units with two more bedrooms is two per unit and then residential units combined with nonresidential that based upon your uh current direction seems like um it would just be the same language we used up above chapter six that says when you add an additional use to a restaurant or to a thing that you have to do the U total of both uses um but in this case it's also saying the non-residential use garages count towards required off street parking I'm not sure how would this how would this work with what we were describing last time in tying the far to the units commercial far to um residential units okay well we have any it's not going to matter because that's just an additional use so right now if you have a 4unit apartment and you also want to have a 4,000 square foot office that' just be an 8,000 square foot you know building and we could address the far and if the far said well no your four units count towards far that might make the 4,000 foot building drop down to or the business part of it drop down to 2,000 square ft well if you drop the business down to 2,000 sare ft you're not going to need parking based on the business being 4,000 you're only going to need the parking based on business being 2,000 so that bar effect is going to reduce either the business side or the residential side I suspect that on our current market it's going to reduce the commercial business side because the market is providing more return for residential development than it is for commercial development right now so what it probably will do is direct the residential side more than the commercial but in the position of the car dealership probably not because that person's in car dealerships more than residential but as it relates to if you were just or like we have in the urban area we limit what percentage of what well like under the urban code you have to have uh up to 70% or office residential code says up to 70% office and up to 30% um residential right and that's under the future land uses or under the comp plant um that won't matter you'll still have to do that but you'll just be providing before when you had like using the civita it was 25% residential and 75% I don't know if it's four stories or three stories I think it's three St is it four um so no it's I think it's three it's three stories first is retail second is commercial or office and third is the residential so it's 33% residential so 33% of the building didn't have to have required park now those two bedroom units which I believe was originally approved for five but it ended up being four would generate the need for eight parking spaces mhm so it wasn't really affect far there because the far isn't have been exceeded but it would affect parking to the extent that it would increase it to eight now if it affected the far one of those floors wouldn't be there so it might take the office floor out and so then it's only a two-story building and you have retail and residential if you didn't have that what how many you know how many square feet that second floor is assuming four units probably about a 4,000 foot second floor took 4,000 square F feet out of the parking calculation you would remove however many parking spaces that was so that part wouldn't it wouldn't really play a role with the far because everything gets taken out doesn't apply to parking and anything that gets added in does apply to parking so the parking is just the calculation based on the math um assisted living facilities is one for four living units plus one space for employee um adult dayare uh we don't have a lot of those but we are going into what they're calling the silver tsunami that we that could be changing um bed and breakfast U we haven't had any issues we got a few in town but there hasn't been any issues really with those Community residential homes really we haven't run into any problems with those at all family dayc carees um haven't really run into those uh hotel motel it's one per room plus two P spaces per three employees um manufactured on RV park I don't even know if we have any there's I think one RV park or two left in the city there's the one over there by the towers building um but it's already built and so um I don't see it expanding um nursing home um rooming house and boarding house is one per bedroom which is more intense than uh multi family um Bus and Train um could we pause yeah what value they just saw him and said yes sir the Intimidator did you take his rights away yeah involveed taking it's basically a restraining order preventing someone that shouldn't have a gun not to possess for so yes waiting yeah I saw him as I was coming almost easist what's not on that well that's that's but earlier when I said the things that are not on the list I'm like there's not many things is not on that list no no no if we go there's more to it too and it has Chang I don't see any specific but we we we've added we we've added um micro breweries to it over time right well except for the I don't know that that actually means that that has to change because yeah but it says it does but doesn't always it right that's meing code yeah you have to talk in the microphone but sorry sorry can I speak to the city manager sure thank you Mr Mayor um that code hasn't changed in a while nursing homes many of the nursing homes now are graduated systems where they're independent living and then nursing home and then Alzheimer's care so we that change we we address those differently because that's an assisted living facility okay and so the assisted living facility part of that has a much higher parking because in the like you said in Assisted Living I mean those people are coming and going every day yes so they they need much more parking than a nursing home whereas in my experience with the nursing homes is nowadays the people in nursing homes parkings for visitors you know the people in the nursing home aren't going anywhere yeah Mr Mr Mortel pause your okay um so scrolling through going down the list uh religious institutions has been pretty standard don't get a lot of cemetery issues but I do know that the cemetery for first time in a long time is coming back to make some changes so I'm sure they've been doing that calculation um clubs and lodges um looking gol we don't have any golf courses in the city of Stewart I hate to interrupt you um for me I don't know if there's concerns from other board members but my focus is would just be multif family and then that mixed okay so go to the top of list instead going through all the different commercial uses multi family commercial is not really the so there's multi family right there the fourth down those those three so what are you looking for so I would like to have us all sort of discussing what if any we think you know increases in that should be when I was looking at uh Palm Beach County for instance you know there even what I saw on there were higher uh numbers than ours so like 1.75 instead of 1.5 and then they also just as an example I'm not saying this is what we should do but even included requirements uh for guest parking you know the within that the expectation that it's not just going to be who lives there but they may also have guests so in this one example for every four units within that multif family they included uh another required parking space so it was like an additional 0.25 you know per per unit kind of a thing because of guest parking so Studios or one bedroom this was for multif family there's two theirs is a little bit different they have it split up by um efficiencies and with one bedroom and then plus one guas parking space per four just as a quick example I haven't I haven't looked at I know city of West Palm's code I do know that some of the codes down south um have have schedu County I'm looking at I'm looking at Palm Beach county.com I know I'm looking not argue with you yeah I understand okay can we have have to look at the I code and see if how close I think that ours is is close to what requ are you but you were saying that I'm saying increase increase those requirements yeah I'm looking at it two two separate items there so so you wish to make a change with regard to that's what I wanted to to discuss with you with you guys uh commissioner Clark's not really interested in that but if the other Commissioners are because you said you want to stick with it and not look inre 1.5 yeah not increase requirements close to it the other thing is um if we have you're going to change the like you was saying the studio or the one bedroom or something else two more the other thing when you talk about other urban areas that have other standards some of those urban areas are looking at uh more density or higher buildings they they you know their levels are more than the four stores that we have and most of our multi we do have multif family here that's uh four stories but then a lot of them are just probably two story and so um you know that's probably why when you have um you have more more units they're going to be there's going to be more more parking when they have the I don't know what they have whatever I would assume it would be the opposite right the more dense they typically have lower requirements for parking this would be the opposite they have more units calcul that they would make it more strict so if if even just for a rationale of guests you know I think we shouldn't be thinking about increasing this multif family uh parking requirement up you know in this particular case say increase it by 0.25 you know but even another uh 05 per unit across those three to me would seem more reasonable so um instead of with under you know the guest under the banner of a guest but sort of this language here where it says plus one guest parking space per X units with common so you would have like um you know 1.5 if you wanted to keep it that plus you know uh one guest space per two units as an example and if or if we just wanted to keep it simple and just have it be within multif family Studios or one bedroom two per unit multif family dwelling units two or more bedrooms three per unit you know and then residential units combined with non-residential three per unit something like that but those are kind of my thoughts kind of going One Direction or the other if there were some thoughts from other Commissioners I just got to find it give me one sec someone else has comment and again the have you looked at the additional cost to the Builder of that requirement are you asking me yeah no you're making a recommendation I assume done some study or read something have you no again I hate to beat this to death but that is not what I heard going door to door the focus was not that it was less density density is I mean if what you want is less density then let's just talk about less density but parking is a part of door through it's both it's both it's density and parking let's just be I am I'm being absolutely straightforward right now with you so an additional you're unconcerned about okay yes commissioner your microphone with the current numbers up there we've not created U affordable housing so I just I kind of question what you're saying we need more more affordable housing but that hasn't created more AFF that I'm well aware of that deficiency on our part but I don't think it's deficiency on our part would make it more diff and this would be new development you're asking would it be more costly for new development or of course but that would then be the cost of doing development here in Stewart wouldn't it um Mr I mean it is a workshop so I'm not sure we might allow additional public you guys are it's Bally do it however you want it's doesn't matter that's kind of the purpose for I would just like us to be able to get through this I feel like it's going to take forever I know how Marcel feel I understand so why don't we why don't we get a sense of the commission and then we can have public yeah I was going to clarify the whole uh parking at Palm Beach I pulled it up and if it was strictly residential then you're talking the one point 1.75 spaces per unit when it was mixed use that's when they dropped it to one per unit or for one bedroom when it was two bedroom it was 1.5 per unit when it was over three then it was two spaces per and that was only when it was mixed use when it was strictly multifam um it was 1.75 per one-bedroom unit so just wanted to clarify it um it just says plus one guess parking space per four units with Common parking areas okay so two spaces per uh let's see I'm not sure it really matters I I was just clarifying it code is I can pull up for lauderdal an issue with increasing the parking requirements here I mean I mean can do legally no you guys can you guys can again when we come back can with the resolution if we believe that there's a bird Harris effect right we will describe that to you does the city commission have the legal right to zone parking mean that question's yes they do that by the fear by the mere fact that there's numbers on that chart right there a commission had to put them there and so you have the right to change now if you inordinately burden the property based upon your change you could be exposed to a birt Harris claim correct but the question becomes what is inordinately burdening the property me could you just for so it yeah so it used to be that government would do a taking and they would literally go to somebody's property and say we need to build a highway through here we're just going to take your property and we're going to Value it we're going to pay you for what land we took from you and that was a fairly common practice but over time the property owners said wait a second there's more than just there's more to a taking than just building a road and the Tallahassee adopted The Bert Paris act which said you don't have to build a road to do a taking codes or zoning can constitute a taking itself and that could create the same thing even though you don't build the road or the government doesn't need the property you're literally taking my rights away anyway and therefore I'm entitled to be comp compensated it and the burden is again if it's an inordinate burden on the land and an example would be if hypothetically speaking somebody came in yesterday and got a permit to open a pet St store to to sell puppy and we issued them a business tax receipt and they signed a 10year lease to sell puppies and then Monday we Chang changed the law and said selling puppies in the city of Stewart is illegal and now they're exposed to this 10year lease and they're not allowed to sell puppies now the bird Harris act requires the only person that can make claim under a bird Harris act has to own the land so that puppy store if they were renting they couldn't claim the rent as damages but the landlord could say you took my tenant away and therefore if that inordinately burdened land he could be paid but if the city could prove well look I didn't take your property right away because you can sell taxs and therefore you still have the right to use your land it becomes a subjective test so where where it goes too far or where it doesn't is much more complicated I know it's easier where height limits are concerned if we said from now on you can only go three stories that is a pretty measurable difference that can be measured much easier um and and so it can be demonstrated by the land owner how that affected the inordinately burden their land but if you increase the parking by three parking spaces I don't know that anybody could demonstrate an inordinate bird now that just on the Bert haris side of the conversation the the parking has has unintended unintended consequences because ironically the city of Stewart talks about having a parking problem but the real only place that has any significant parking problem is downtown and it doesn't really have a parking problem because we don't charge for parking we don't think it's significant enough charge so we don't make them people pay to park there and it's only from 4: to 6:30 or 7 because by 7 o'cl there's space available and if you want to walk but the side to it is the perception of the residents is that it's an inordinate parking problem that's makes it impossible to go downtown and people complain about it probably the probably the biggest most popular complaint we get um so whether it's perceived or not downtown is considered to have a parking issue ironically none of this code applies because the area is exempt from the code so it doesn't matter what we could change that to 80 per unit right and downtown wouldn't be changed so the question is really the the corridors and the and the streets and right and and honestly I don't you know know that it's been a significant issue this you know commiss Collins sounds like he's not concerned with all of these other nuanced ones he's more just about the multif family and I don't know about the rest of the commission but I it be my opinion that the others don't really need U significant changing I could have staff look at it because there may be some one-offs in there that we just didn't realize but overall I I don't I can't think of any particular area that that there there's a parking issue may just add on to that sorry um I don't know if Mr mortell realized but when I was at the county prior to coming here the county was sued for I knew that the pet store hypothetical that was Point all right um they were for us that wasn't lost on me they they were they were um sued by two different pet store owner and um it it was costly and it was more than just a Bert Harris I some of my colleagues other lawyers can get very creative of other claims they can make against the county or the city a lot of Conti CLA in addition but I just thought I'd mention that that that actually happened agoot thank you so just for clarification I to give direction I would like to see uh I think it's appropriate based on the use and intensity here for multif family both Studios one bedroom two or more bedrooms and residential units combined with non-residential to see each of those uh kicked up by a half a space per unit uh again with guess in mind and just the intensity that's going to be in multif family and beyond that again I don't have other issues within the the parking requirements in this chart unless other Commissioners do can the staff give us some estimate of what additional well a parking space a parking space right now I think is an estimated value is about $25,000 per space um so if you had a two-bedroom apartment you'd have to add one parking space because it would we don't do have Li which me is real limit their ability the number of basically on the size of the land if you have a if you have a 1 Acre Site 300 Square fet per space every every parking space takes away from living space I think I think we're going to end up building like the one super expensive they can afford it buy a number of lots put together get the number yes commissioner clerk so is is that just in the one bedroom Studio then 2.0 per per unit and then every other multif family would be he said he said a half just going straight down is what I heard right mul just for cl then to 2.5 and 2.5 yes exactly um I should mention um Dr Brooks contacted me earlier this week and you mentioned at the uh building on um the Riverwalk or whatever and he expressed that he didn't think it was good for us to have parking under buildings because um he believe that um it detached the building from the community and I told him I would mention that at the meeting um I guess they retail well again he called me and said that because when he was walking down the boardwalk he felt like the he of the you know the building was uh for the parking or whatever I just said I would men are there any I mean I have no are there any other additional comments or can we okay marel would you like introduce yourself please thank you Marcela camblor 47 West Ula Street Stuart thank you and I have to go back to work um again I'm going to reiterate if we apply our code without variances you would be surprised at how much we can diminish intensity and density in all of these projects I appreciate council's comment as your colleagues finding creative ways to claim takings um I would I would say the other side is true too uh creative ways of tampering with the code to really affect a use could also be a takings u but in this I I um I'm surprised that as much discussion as it went into with the pizza plays and the picnic table we are not having the same level of discussion what would this do to Tia Verde where I have a couple of units or to the yacht and country club or to Cedar Point or to Kingswood or to all of these multifam buildings that will not meet this new parking and there will be units coming in needing to pull a CO a permit many of them possibly doing more than 50% of their assessed value in improvements many of those units are assessed at 35 $40,000 um so are we saying all of our multifam is going to be non-conform can we can we please know because I have property and I need to know if my property is now going to be non-conforming and I will never be able to improve it again if you're asking me I mean I don't staff could this well yeah I was going to say I don't know what your property is so cont I know but if it's if it's non-conforming I don't know if you're expanding the use if you have the ability to build the additional parking then it won't prohibit you from how would I build additional parking on a condominium like Tia Verde if I am improving my unit by more than 50% of its value not expanding I mean this is or or if Kingswood wants to build another swimming pool or if Cedar Point wants to you know do none of them none of them meet additional parking I don't disagree okay just that certainly you may I just wanted to I know it's not supposedly proper but I just want to let you know I do live in Kingwood you know that and um Kingswood was not in compliance when they built FY because City had contacted me I was the board president at the time so we have not been in compliance with the new laws that py I think it's go there right yeah from when they were built well I think we're not building any more condos within Kingswood I don't think any of those yeah pte was not part of uh Kingswood it was a separate parcel I used to own that parcel um so it it didn't have the parking issues that Kings will will have if all if now it is declared a non-conforming based on the new parking room that's if you want to do it it's fine you have a right to touch the code what needs to be carefully done is right now I can tell you with what is being said again out of professional experience everything that is not a single family home will be non-conforming based on parking if it has residential and yes the attorney and land planner in the board is shaking her head um it it's hard to sit here and go and and you know we have professionals sitting here and no one's saying hey guys that's an issue today I I understand that bogging the meetings with comment is annoying but why are we wasting time in sending staff to analyze something that the Professionals in the room know is an issue for starters can we just say you know unless you come up with language that clearly excludes and allows all those uses to be forever excluded anyways thank you thank you thank you well this is the this is the manner in which the Commissioners have chosen to proceed at this point in time so thank God we have the ability to ask staff to provide us some of this information and Analysis because um we are not the ones who can create the code effectively and responsibly so we do rely on them would you like to make a comment all right so um and and this is someone speaking that I develop in Brower County Martin count I mean Brower County Palm Beach County across the state outside the state I've done GSA I've done affordable I've done High luxury and I've done everything that has to deal with parking requirements right and one of the things is like she mentioned what it what you're trying to do is kind of like that back door into oh I'm going to create parking to decrease density I'm going to tell you what I'm a developer it's not going to decrease my density I'll just get more creative and just charge more okay however what it does impact is when I'm sitting on the I sit on the habitat for humanities for Brower County and we are going out there trying to find properties so we can build single family homes that people can buy and own all right and to make them affordable you know what brow County I was at a meeting last night what they're doing they're looking at how they give density bonuses to folks if you're coming in and creating these properties that will allow for that this is not someone who's living in a house that's 200 Grand or this is like you know if my parents want to live in Kingswood you know that's the place they would go because it's cheap enough for me to buy something I can't do that if I'm now going to have to meet a requirement where for example R2 R3 you're going from 5,000 to 6,000 that makes everything non-conforming in certain neighborhoods right everything non-conform like whole neighborhoods non-conforming what happens there so all the people who are living affordably God help them if another tornado comes through knock down their house they better go buy their parents their neighbors property up so they can build something bigger now it's more expensive that is the unintended consequence that four years down the road six years down the road when you all in here and people are coming in complaining that we can't afford to live here right or the folks who are living in ter or or Kingswood your building is older you want to do substantial Renovations you go over a certain percentage now you have to bring it up to code all right guess what that's replacing Windows maybe replacing doors all of a sudden you're building the cost goes over 50% you now have to meet those requirements that have now been put on you that is way more stringent and they're going to be coming in here asking for Relief so it's it's I'm not saying don't the knee-jerk is oh I've been put in place a do that well that's great but it's listening to folks that have their you know they sit there and they see it happening in front of their face at that one point so you're taking minuscule micro to do macro you need to do macro and then figure out how you you look at the micro we're not doing that we're just looking at let's look here and your spot zoning and spot treating problems you got to look at as a whole and it's not going to happen with just one person dictating this is what we're going to do I want it done and then and sign off on it because it's going to have that unintended consequent down the road and if you think Bert Harris is an issue wait until that happens you'll have a lot of them coming in and Mr Legette I think he's an environmental lawyer land use is a whole different animal and it becomes really crazy thank you you have a sense here um on those on the point five it's pretty straightforward you guys I mean obviously it's not it's it's not a vote right now there's not we're not adopting an ordinance right now it's direction to staff to bring back the resolution with the changes that are intended and we'll and and I do I get it um so going to keep scrolling down just briefly so for the consensus purp need to go through all the specific I don't believe so no I was keep just continue to scroll down through it um and for consensus purposes I don't believe we do need to um make any other changes uh go all the way to the end unless there's something internally that you find and if we come up with yeah as we're looking at it I know that the uh development department has had a litch bill as we call it running for a while that may includes some minor changes here and there that we'll include too if we time we might come back separately for that um as you can see the list goes on and on and on well go go back up I'm sorry go there um so you're there is no intention for changing any of the commercials from 300 to 250 or 200 okay so great that'll make it a lot faster and easier keep going um and um getting U these are designed standards for off street parking obviously um in downtown Stewart we get complaints all the time because one side of the street doesn't allow trucks well the reality of it is is that was designed that way to maximize the number of parking spaces we could provide and we can't the Street's not wide enough to have two full spaces on both sides these design standards are are the requirement and there's you know our alternative would be to remove all the parking spaces from the other side of the street which was a ludicrous result um I just mention it because they're they're in place we'll keep going you can Chris um and then um these are that goes with the design standards and then this is the paving um of surfaces so um the uh obviously parking lots don't just have parking they have access aisles they have driving aisles and they have Curb cuts um I don't see any need for any changes to those because it sounds like the only parking is going to be in The multif Family Arena um you can keep going on the these are this is description of perious and the requirements for perious parking and off street parking design um in front of and behind buildings um but uh then the intent of the city to put parking in the back as much as possible um keep going um this is parking garages but we're not going to get into that and that we don't want anybody to just build a giant cement block we like them to if somebody were to build a parking garage to have uh to try and make it look like a residential or commercial building and make it look like you know a facade on the front of it so it doesn't just look like a parking garage I know that there's a couple of projects that'll be coming forward that probably include parking garages so that'll come into play um we require parking studies um uh off Street loading requirements you know anybody that's been driven through downtown in in the uh mornings know that the off building requirements can make busy um and then here's the far up that um oh that's actually just floor area um and that's for the is that a industrial okay yeah that doesn't really matter right um this is payment in Le of parking so we we go back to 6.01 what does it transportation system management I'm not or years so so what happens is somebody comes in they have the need based upon our code they have the need for X parking spaces and then they come in with a consultant or or a uh they show through a transport Management program that no we really don't have the need for the parking that you're talking about and a bad example of that might be that like where this condo over here I was talking about them putting a dock in well our code requires you to put in one parking space for her Five Dock slips that you build in a marina well in this circumstance it's not a public marina it's the person that lives there already has a parking space dedicated for their car to live there and their dock space isn't getting rented out to another party so they might come in and say no we don't need to add parking for this Marina because these par these dock spaces are just like single family houses that have docks out back they're not New Uses the car the person that owns the condo owns the dock space so here's why you don't need to do that you know and here's and here's an example of why your parking code doesn't doesn't apply to the circumstance now there's I know that many years ago I forget what which drive-thru it was but there was a drive-thru that we were applying the drive-through code to and they were demonstrating that that they really weren't like McDonald's and like the drive-thru and they were more like our water payment thing our water drive-thru doesn't do 50 cars a day like some of the drive-throughs is so you would do a you would demonstrate to the city how you don't fall into that cat and that does happen a traffic analysis right essentially but it's parking right um and we we do come into it n um the payment in L parking has a limitation I think three spaces I while was that right yeah um three spaces for any use and we allow you to pay in rather than building those spaces I know that it's come into play a couple of times um the distinction being that in a PUD you could come in and get a reduction in the parking commission from the commission without paying in so they go through the Pud process rather than straight staff and payment of blue because a parking space is you know $25,000 and you're going to buy three spaces it's $75,000 it'd be cheaper to spend $5,000 and seek a PD to say to the commission look I really don't need those spaces or can you guys reduce my parking by three spaces or something like that so we don't really have a lot of circumstances where people just say I'm one parking space short here's 25 Grand and by the way when it started out it was $9,000 um but I mentioned it just because it exists and it is used can you scroll down I think it shows how to do the math on the cost it an example yeah and so it's determined on how much you how to calculate it um and then Fe for parking space 9,465 with that calculation deter um but that number is significantly higher um Miss okay can before you do that can I ask so we're going until 1:00 are we going to um have lunch on our own after you guys it's up to you guys Lun I don't know I didn't order well I did anticipate that question so I have menus from Ellie's Deli if you guys want to order lunch I tell you if we stop for lunch it's yeah we're just work through let's just take a 10-minute recess come back and finish up do well do you want me to order lunch or no no no okay no e e