e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e call the meeting to order um start with a ro sure chairman zooker here Vice chairwoman balson Alvarez here Mr spur is expected but not yet present Mr felmet here council member Hamlet is expected but not yet present Mr delori here m McGee here Mr forelli is expected but not yet present Mr stern here Mr Bell here miss Bowen here you have a quarum you may proceed thank you uh now for the adequate notice statement in accordance with New Jersey statute 10 4-10 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to a newspaper of record and has been posted here in City Hall please be advised this is a no smoking building fire exits are to my right or your left and in the back of the room uh this is a scheduled meeting of the planning board there may be other meetings currently running simultaneously with this meeting if you're not here although there is no one else here for the planning board your meeting may be upstairs or elsewhere in the building can talk to um this is a good good time for The Pledge I pledge alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right let me grab my agenda H let's see good evening everybody uh as you may see from the agenda there's no public hearing on the calendar for this evening uh so we have some resolutions to memorialize and some conversations to have among ourselves um on some important matters um we can start with actually want to call the resolutions to be memorialist sure so first we have two park viw terorists that's Michael and Susan bow B pb23 271 block 470 7 Lot 23 our eligible voting members are chairman zooker Mr spur Mr felmet council member Hamlet Mr delori Miss McGee and Miss Bowen uh I've read this over uh it does I apologize Mr chairman for interrupting you I I did have one change uh I caught oh good I just want to alert about before what at the appropriate time well actually I was going to ask anybody if they if they read it over and if they found any corrections or anything that doesn't reflect our meeting but your timing is very good Mr Warner the I believe we're using the term in uh page two top uh of page two item number three uh rather than building coverage I believe we're using the term loot coverage uh in both spots there as opposed to building coverage uh nothing changes with respect to the magnitude of that deviation and I think that is the only one I had on this one I think I have one or two on the other okay thank you um I did not catch that and nor any others I think this very very nicely reflects what we talked about and how the the hearing went does anyone else has any other thoughts or comments Corrections hearing none um can we have a motion so moved and a second second okay chairman Zucker yes Mr yes Mr felmet yes Mr delori yes Miss McGee yes Miss Bowen yes the motion carries all right so the next resolution we have is 30 Woodland Avenue that's Jin Deng and Ulan Ying pb24 273 block 1904 lot 9 the eligible voting members are chairman zooker Mr spur Mr Stern Mr delori Miss McGee and Miss Bowen Mr Warner if you want to lead us off appreciate that Mr chairman thank you um and we were trying to get the confirmation of some information you saw a couple of blanks in here uh uh to be as comprehensive as we always try to be um we got some of them we didn't get all of them but uh uh on page two number eight uh the mag uh the order ordinance requires the blank there should be uh 1 2 3 4 5 six line down the first blank 24 ft is the requirement uh they came up a bit short on that deviation otherwise we have on that page as you can see two section numbers that we need to get confirmation of the uh uh the respective or ordinance sections um the 24 ft by the way carries over into one other uh page five uh you'll see there's a blank that's that same 24 foot width um but the two ordinance sections and the address for the architect uh are still to be confirmed uh as we had uh haven't gotten uh that confirmation yet from uh parties we sought it from um but it's up to the board but given that uh there's no meeting in August the next meeting is the end of September um I would at least from the legal perspective offer that you might wish to consider adopting a contingent on us getting that confirmation the most important parts the relief the magnitude of the deviations the conditions not to say that the rest isn't important as well but the most important uh Parts I think of the resolution are uh already memorialized so what you're saying is these are very di minimist little Corrections that just looking up the section number seally Essen I would not disagree with that characterization Mr chairman the board is comfortable I I'm certainly comfortable moving forward and approving the resolution subject to those minor Corrections anyone have any other comments or uh observations they'd like to make about the resolution there's a little typo on the top of page seven Milburn is misspelled but um top of page s oh Milburn oh boy okay murn okay thanks thank you sure we have 564 municipalities in the state of New Jersey I do not believe murn is one of it might it might be I constantly encounter T towns I have not visited or been to we heard of we're heard of right you never know right we have five Washingtons as probably some of many of you know and at least two Springfields um there you go um okay so can we have a motion so moved and a second okay chairman Zucker yes Mr spur yes Mr delori yes Miss McGee yes Mr Stern yes Miss Bowen yes the motion carries we'll get that information to Stephanie as soon as possible thanks thank you uh next up we have Mr Weber I think is going to explain an extension a request for an extension thank you Mr chairman James Weber of Alonso and Weber on behalf of the applicants that's Shannon mahy Liam and Susanna Carr and Brenda and George Shephard the uh application for an extension is due to the fact that of the three subdivision Deeds two have been signed and recorded the third one to international travel by The Cars could not make the deadline as a result they are back in New Jersey we're going to have them sign the subdivision deed this Friday and that will conclude this matter but we need an extension in order to cover that period of time and just for the record this is uh planning board um file 22-26 3 I I hadn't said that before you started um we're all good Mr chairman I may just weigh in on context sure uh because we do have a resolu a resolution we drafted so that you could proceed with the extension if it were to be granted it is a third extension um but I believe uh that indeed the second extension may not expire until August 15th uh however uh so it's arguable whether they might actually need that third extension or not um but uh uh uh I offered it it may be Pro nevertheless uh to Grant it uh if you so determined it's warranted uh and then if they uh record before August 15th uh and we were correct in our math uh that the last extension uh the second extension extended technically to uh uh uh uh to to the August date because it extends not from when it's requested but when the uh uh prior extension the original uh time frame and then hence the the subsequent ex uh extensions when they expire so I think that's why frankly applicant may have thought uh they weren't going to make it when in fact they might if you follow but uh if that's the case Mr Warner uh and and the recording happens next week and it falls under the second extension we just don't have to memorialize or we can well here's the thing I think it given that we uh to be uh practical given that we're not going to be meeting again as I understand till the end of September You may wish to Grant the extension if they make it before the August 15th date and we were correct in our calculations I think the legal phrase is no harm no foul right if I can be heard with regard to that sure the second extension actually included as a condition of approval it also included as a condition of approval that it would expire July 7th 2024 it did okay interesting I don't know why we had uh August so uh all the more prudent for the uh if the board so desires to Grant the extension no harm no harm no fou any other thoughts okay can we have a motion so moved and a second second okay and this will actually adopt the resolution uh that this is to adopt the resolution is this third extension thank you Mr third time perhaps being the chart okay all right so let's get a roll call vote chairman Zucker yes never one Vice chair bson Alvarez yes Mr spur yes Mr felmet yes Mr delori yes Miss McGee yes Mr Stern yes Mr Bell yes Miss Bowen yes the motion carries Mr chairman I forgot to thank the board members for coming out in the middle of their summer to this hearing uh it is appreciated and I wanted to take that clear uh also we have presented uh to miss solos the proposed deed of subdivision for your consideration I believe it's been reviewed by uh Mr Warner's office and it's ready for Signature of on the adoption of the resolution at that time if Miss suos would permit I'll appear tomorrow I to meet with Mr shreer and I could pick up the uh signed deed at that point and then finally this Friday put this matter to bed let's hope so sure and I appreciate the board's time again thanks for coming out thank you you're welcome to stay Mr Weber too if you'd like for the duration of the meeting leave leave it to your [Laughter] discretion that's right all of a sudden lacking words there we go uh next up is uh the minutes from our last meeting um that would be June 24th hope everyone's had a chance to look through them and and if anyone has any comments Corrections clarifications they'd like to make please offer them now they seem to cover our conversation pretty accurately all right hearing no other thoughts or comments I'll take a motion to approve the minutes so moved and a second second okay we could do a Voice vote but um I would like to exclude the members who were not present that evening which were Vice chair Boston Alvarez Mr forelli Mr Bell council member Hamlet and Mr felmet all those in favor any opposed the motion carries all right thanks folks that's the official business um just balson Alvarez I believe you had some comments and um I do to lead a conversation a little bit about the Dr yeah I'm gonna hand it over to you all right so as you know there's a subcommittee of Mr spur Mr former Chelli we've met a couple times we've reached out to um the public and come up with a very uh draft form of 10 ideas for discussion for changes and edits to the Dr the development regulations this should be something that we do more often than we've been doing we're hoping to do it at least annually um and uh it's just a good practice so but I've handed out to all of you hopefully have made it around the table just our top 10 for now for discuss discussion purposes we're hoping that um you all will look at the topics and go to the master plan familiar yourself again with the goals and maybe have these in the back of your mind when you're looking at that and then also look at the drro and look at these topics and then any others that you want to bring to the table and we'll at a future meeting hopefully September but if we have a million applications maybe not yeah you have an extra copy oh here you can have mine you want to keep yours I can I can share with you can take mine here okay I'm a co-author of this [Laughter] year you don't I'm sorry yes okay okay you're too organized you filed it I filed it already Okay it's never support quiet great great great so that the reexamination was was 2016 2017 um and as you all know a lot of citizens were involved in that and the goals in the master plan the master plan document is the basis upon which we you know write our drro so a lot of things that were aspirational in our master plan have gotten into our drro and a lot of things haven't um so we could go through the 10 items if you wanted just to to introduce them or you can take them home read them digest them look at our documents and we can talk about it at another good quick questions so what do you want to do chair I'd like to go through them here so the first one is uh possible update historic preservation ordinance we have a historic preservation ordinance um and there's been a lot of discussion over decades believe it or not to improve it give it a little more teeth perhaps um and the HPC is currently talking to DCS as about this and and the city council as well and uh my understanding from the HPC chair is that DCS has prepared a draft or is finishing up a draft and um they're working together on this effort um you all probably also know that the drro has a section that's blank right now for an updated HPC ordinance um so it's been on the radar for a while so something for us to discuss and um you know after we go through all of these and any others that you want to add we'd make recommendations we boil it down to what our top five or maybe we do a dozen who knows and then we have to come up with language and then suggest it to city council but anyway so number two is um one observation that comes up over and over is that the design guidelines which we added to our drro the last go round um are missed very often by Architects developers everybody they seem to not use them realize they're there it's uh too bad because it's referred to in every single zone you know this has to be compatible with the design guidelines look at appendix a nobody looks at appendix a so our chair suggested uh and the subcommittee agrees that we should put them front and center and just say all zones need to be compatible with these and put them in the front so they don't get missed so it seems like an easy fix but we can discuss that number three is look at parameters for allowable roof decks in downtown I remember many years ago we approved the Elks Club it's been great you know let's talk about that look at the drro frankly do not remember I did a quick search of rooftop decks in the DI I didn't see anything so something we should look at because I it's an interesting thing that we could do and maybe not everybody needs to come for a variance for a rooftop duck so remember we did one uh at the building next to the unarian church it's like a couple doors down Unitarian Church I don't remember that one oh yeah okay you know where the like carpet one with the carpet stores whatever there's a small building there professional Office Professional office and they they they asked for a roof deck and I remember we did some and we you know we we winged it I guess because we really didn't have a yeah that was a on that topic there were two or three roof decks for varying size projects and varying zones within town that came over the zoning board in the past two or three years for which there just isn't a a set of parameters or guidelines to help understand what appropriate set setbacks are um some operational considerations lighting um and I don't know you know Joe you have exper sound right you know Joe if you have experience in other municipalities with this but you know I suspect there's some point of reference we could offer to help guide the zoning and planning boards in the very least um to how to deal with these if not potentially codify a set that can allow approval as of right but that may be ambitious first then particularly in zones like downtown business zones the prod zones you know they seem like obvious easy and that's what a lot of towns are now doing right and there's interesting deviation there's a lot of creativity if it ever gets built across from the Volvo dealership that turcell Park uh multif family development has a dog run on the roof um where people can let their dogs do their business on the roof um I don't think any of us would have anticipated that in the drro but the developers are creative and absent are trying to be proactive um they'll continue to inject creativity positive or negative into their applications so something to consider cool any other comments on that okay uh for stacked parking there is quite a bit um on pages 112 and 113 about stock parking but I thought maybe we should revisit it because it's an interesting topic it's not going to it's maybe it's a move point maybe we've covered it but I'd like to just revisit it the subcommittee thought we could revisit it maybe so um accessory dwelling units back when we did the master plan it came up um there a lot of States communities that do accessory dwelling units um we could discuss perhaps allowing them uh in existing properties um rentals free whatever certain residential zones maybe z b zones but um with larger Lots but I would think in existing the subcommittee and we discussed in existing structures because I don't think people are going to want a lot of new construction to make especially dwelling units on a residential lot but existing structures Carriage Houses out buildings that sort of thing it might be a way to dip our toe into that um anybody want there the the state is considering but I think it's stuck in committee but they are considering um probably not their first attempt but to control zoning on a blanket Statewide scale which would be remarkable but to allow for accessory dwelling units as a permitted use in all residential areas in all municipalities correct pretty correctly to require it as a permed not just allow override override it would override local and but but what about the setback rules and all that do we get to set that locally or do they that'll be standardized you you get to set to establish the setback requirements building coverage requirements but they would be allowed in no residential zones and I don't even think it had parking requirements I don't even think it had parking requirements that's correct which is disturbing you can imagine a neighborhood where people are moving in and how many as they have Etc so um so this is a topic and certainly with affordable housing um there is some interest in people you know in Goodwill deed restricting a carriage house to allow for that kind of stuff so it's it's something to definitely talk about allowing and inherent I think in accessory dwelling units is you know if it's really small it gives a variety of types of housing that may be less expensive even in of themselves actually Dove tails with one of the goals of the master specifically talks about that issue right if I recall correctly there may be some I hope I'm not complaing it but there may be some minimum requirements I.E you know it's okay to be small but not too small right that's right that's true that's true in in well in the draft legislation in the pending you know but it's not it's not you want it's an interesting topic and it you know I mean I mean California's had them forever you know decades and decades anyway so that's that's an interesting idea that we can talk about um that's right double Dormers uh that's in the Dr it was pretty well addressed uh just came up in subcommittee it's probably okay but we can take a look at that um seven in kind replacement of existing AC condenser units before the drro was redone that was one of the big that was one of the first items we wanted to change and it never got changed well it did get modified they um they were not as of right um but the setback requirements were relaxed but that but if you but you could still have one that still doesn't meet the setback requirements and you can't just replace it on the spot you needed a variance in kind replacement like if you have an air conditioning unit that's in a Loc years but it's not 25 ft from the rear yard setback you have to get a very or or within 7 ft of your neighbor's sidey yard or whatever it was yeah and uh yeah yeah so we could look at it maybe it's fine the way it was modified or maybe it could be better no it could be you could go further I bet I don't know yeah having just gone through it I would love to change that but um maybe I should not be the one to lead that conversation oh oh anyway um in the master plane also like Joe mentioned um there's uh discussion of 55 and older housing I don't think there's anything in the drro currently that encourages that or requires that there's nothing so again looking at our master plan and looking at our Dr what do we want to encourage and consider um did you want to say something about that no with the new affordable housing regulations the percentage of that can be set aside for I think it's age 62 and above um has been increased so that would okay just the number a little bit that could work well so is is that to say that if we were coming up with an affordable housing plan we we can allocate we can meet our goal and also allocate a certain number to age 62 and older yes it used to be 25% and with the new regulations it's going to 30% oh it is you get is that a that's a half extra credit yeah some are a full extra credit some are a half extra credit extra credit sounds like back in school right I understand but you you don't get as much credit for doing but you can get up for the seniors up to 30% you can get a half bonus credit on top of the one credit for the unit um but also oh all the bonuses are subject to caps as as well so it's to say it's a numbers game perhaps yeah you can't bonus you can't bonus yourself out of your requirement completely yeah you owe us yes you owe us well perhaps um Joe and Steve you have some information you could send to us um through Stephanie about you know to think further about this idea and maybe how to put in the Dr because you know we don't have anything in there now do we have any age restricted in town I don't think that's in the Dr I don't think anybody volunteered so other other than senior housing yeah other than the Housing Authority right I mean I always feel like there's a demand in town for people who want toid and stay in town I mean very much so yeah I mean it just that that's I do think it's not own in this particular town they you know I don't think that and in a lot of towns I don't think it's an onerous request to to expect to have a percentage of uh folks in residential you know multif family to be age restricted um it makes for a population that's that's you know if your a population's only childbearing years you know people that are it makes for a strange population Dynamic so it's it's in the master plan for a reason and it's something that we should consider look you couldn't guarantee Summit seniors if they were to be deed restricted due to how you select residents right if they were affordable housing but you could still create um restrictive housing by age that is necessarily deed restrict it could be affordable or it could be just Mark rate yeah right yeah yeah um through and two recommendations because we can also as a board recommend things to city council um again on the the age restricted maybe recommending to the city council that the Broad Street project includes some age restricted housing again it seems like a good way to keep our population diverse on an age U perspective from an age P perspective and then the last one um a long time ago I looked into because as you all know probably we have um capital of improvements that come like the a addition on a school you know they'll come and they'll do a beautiful presentation a courtesy review and it's done I mean it is designed it's done and that's all great and they can choose to take any recommendations we may have but typically it's too late for that by the time we see it and it's not just look at the turf field on the lower field we spent four hours here and 8: a.m. the next morning they had 50 bulldozers on yeah that was called courtesy yeah exactly right so many years ago courtesy of waiting with the bul this is where Joe get ready putting you on the spot um I started Googling what other towns do and whether they review Capital Improvements because I couldn't believe millions and millions of dollars are basically not reviewed at all you know we're not rocket scientists here but you know I think it's a good practice to have some review we know our drro we know what our master plan says we kind have an idea of what our citizens kind of want to see here and expect here and you know have it be consistent so I found 10 that appeared to have a capital Improvement review Joe the municipal land use law gives the planning board the right to do Capital Improvement reviews [Music] most Joe do you want say that again do you do you want to explain exactly the parameters of that right you might want to pull your mic up because I don't know Folks at home it might be beneficial like I'm going to put together a memo on this age restricted issue I'll put something together for the full board to read okay I mean I think and you know an example obviously would be like the firehouse that went up without you know it's a pretty big project and it didn't you know it's not something we had any say about and if you're saying that there's a possibility that projects like that can be reviewed by us yeah we would like to know the parameters and we got that courtesy review The Architects for that building agreed to multiple conditions we requested that weren't actually substantive like the the footprint was the same it was just a few suggestions to be more compatible to have you know just certain things and it probably would have saved them some money as well um and they said oh yes oh yes oh yes nothing so there's no reason for them to do it and maybe they meant it and I they seemed very earnestly wanting to do that but I think that uh again it was too far down the road and it was it was hard to backpedal at that point that's typically what happens with the courtesy review they say thank you as you said the next morning they're out there digging or is there if we can't do that is there a way to make them come earlier well I think if there's a real review they'll have to come earlier there is that's what I'm going to I don't have all the details in front of me so I just want to put it together in the memo form so everybody will have all the right they need to not a construction do but like yeah exactly yeah I mean it it behooves them they come with that but we would have a real review and they'd have to redesign so that I would think they just by default would come at design development not at construction so thank you um and there are a couple of others I reached out to some architects who have to deal with our de Dr all the time what's your most annoying thing in our Dr you know was the question just to see if there is something that just doesn't make sense or you know and I'm I'm waiting for um they both responded but they're you know they they're working on their list so that's a good thing and I think Steve reached out to the environmental commission who always have great ideas and I'm in touch with HPC and we should probably reach out to some other boards too I mean is there any log that's like taken on over the last the reexamination was 16 since then a consistent theme of variances that we approved that maybe we should look at cify in the zoning board annual report Stephanie does the hard work of compiling all of the approvals or or disapprovals and the variances that were included in them so that would be something we could look at as well as do you want to resend that we just resend that to everybody sure and that that's an important part of the process is everybody knows like to talk about that the the zoning board is tasked with that obligation at least once annually I've rarely have ever seen it done more than once annually but it must be done once at least once annually uh because the zoning board is the board that sees for the most part the the bul bulk of the variances where particularly there may be variances that could be eliminated or uh uh if the ordinance is modified and that's why the obligation is the zoning board to to get the report back to the Govern governing body and the planning board as the legislative bodies if you will to then take that information and decide whether they're going to make amendments to the ordinances Etc so it's built into the mlul and it's a it's a good way of circling back around so and we got a great annual report from the Zoning Board of adjustment I can't take credit for anymore but andul I would just make note that the 10 items that Jennifer had surfac thank you for typing this out by the way mine is are way Messier and just organiz so thank you for doing this um it reflects already a review of the zoning boards Z report where we sought to surface not just frequent requests for variance relief but those with significance significant ambiguity and a likelihood to reappear stacked parking and roof decks are examples of that um little things like the double Dormer relatively little things like the double Dormers and the in kind AC replacement are the low hanging fruit kind of quick fixes and I would imagine we're going to come out of this with probably five things something big and Meaty that we won't touch until our children and grandchildren are sitting up on this day as like adus um or 55 plus but then there's got to be every year two or three little things we can pick off and some things we get a little more ambitious around maybe HPC while Jennifer's here leading charge so we'll see HPC has been in the work since the 80s yeah are you saying that that it's historic at this point almost almost usually the cut the general SS 50 years yeah the um well and as you said the adus may be hand forced on us anyway or at least um imposed we'll see thank you so much for putting that together yeah um the one other thing that I forgot to mention is that um Tom Barons who was very involved in rewriting the well helping us right and wrote The Dr uh with Christa he has a list too of things that he's seen over and over and things that he thought maybe should have been tweaked so he's uh polishing that off and he's going to give to the subcommittee and we'll share whatever he brings to us as well okay thank you very much um do we have any other comment on uh um cross acceptance anything else to come up on that I don't think so um I actually thought there was an August meeting which I that was that was a separate thing yeah well yeah that's that is the case so um just if no one's aware and I know our planner came and spoke about but cross acceptance is a process by which the state releases a plan and then the county runs a process by which Municipal and Joe tell me if I'm wrong municipalities within that County provide feedback on how their local plans align with the county and the county with the state so it's a Reconciliation of planning in the region and there's a template we we as Summit wanted to participate in this um as was a Wish by Council and so we submitted you had to submit a resolution to participate in this that we're waiting on the state to put the plan out they're supposed to update it every 3 years and it has been done in 21 I believe I believe that number is correct but so um that being said there is a series of questions Joe burgess's firm did a good job of doing a draft but there are questions like what are people's top three um design goals the county asked for that um it's a different process than what occurred a number of years ago it used to be that each municipality would have direct contact with the state plan organization well now it's the county that does the negotiation on all the municipalities in the County's behalf so we have to send our material to the county and then they in turn we talk to the state uh the state was supposed to get a draft back in March and once a month on that date like March 15th say we get an email that said we're still working on it but they're not 21 years behind yet they're P 21 weeks so um but one of the things they do want to know is of your goals and objectives what are the three most important ones why they picked three and not five or seven or whatever I don't know but they asked for three and that's one of the reasons why I handed out that memo um we don't need to have an answer tonight um but you should look at that if you have the document itself because with each of the sub uh sub paragraphs you know there's a a whole page in the master plan that writes about that goal and you should take a look at that and then the next time we get together we could really hone in to identify of these six broad goals what are the ones that we really want to emphasize to the county and then one one of the things that uh is I believe required is that there public input yes and it was decided that the planning board that it has the authority to deliver the master plan would have a portion of one of its meetings in which we would invite the public to provide input in addition to what the planning board thought were could be those goals um so that would include putting out a little packet with um some of the information some of the questions that we would be seeking the public to provide for us at a meeting so let's talk about that for a second that's that sounds very interesting if if we get let's just say we're lucky enough by the next meeting to get to get the template to get guidelines how well we have the the template and the guidelines are available it's just the state hasn't released its plan and some of the template questions say of the plan what are your thoughts on blank well we can't comment on it because we don't have the plan but there are questions that we that are broad that Joe's talking about that we do want to hear from the public on so in addition to the planning board to have a good conversation about these topics as reflective of the master plan that there would be a portion of a meeting where the public would be invited to come forward and just provide comment on their thoughts and ideas in addition to perhaps soliciting input via email I mean this isn't something that's a required step within the ml well that we undertake but I think Matt and others and I've certainly discussed is offering a number of different forms for the public to input on this process at least on Broad policy matters is desirable the August meeting is definitionally the worst meeting of public meeting public input but the risk we run is I believe was it September 5th or 8th is the is the the county put out a loose the County's meeting on September 5th in Cranford but without the state plan I can't imagine that happening and it's already had already been delayed since June so I feel like planning for the September meeting would probably still provide us with yeah enough time that's just the potential risk you we run if not holding it in August is potentially the state gets us act together during the July to August time frame and we missed that kind of Step before but so without after public input we would then be boiling down our our top priorities to to give them you yeah and in the in the form of a template we've Al we're also submitting through Joe's office all of our planning documents Through The Years everything to sort of submit that they had request I would suggest we just shoot for September the September meeting and just yeah I mean I don't you're right there's a risk I guess but may be able to open the public email Sol station of input via email prior to that in case for whatever reason we do miss that window but it's doubtful that the county or the state's going to spend their Labor Day holiday preparing for that in September 5th meeting so the communication would be something like explaining just Loosely what cross acceptance is and then having a call to either email or show up at a specific meeting to answer two or three questions if anyone has opinions or wants to share on that collect that information have a conversation as a board and then that would help Joe's office synthesize an answer that could be put in the temp that would then go to the and that's a good time for me because gives us time to look over trying to say something dying to say something Joe Joe were you trying to say something no at the end of that conversation I do have one thing to point out and maybe it's time it now um the 2016 document is a master plan reexamination report and for those that attended that Saturday morning work session if you recall we discussed the fact that a reexamination report technically is not your master plan now I know this municipality has always perceived it as the master plan and has always talked about it as such and that's why I summarize the goals from this document and maybe the question is to you Steve uh the last time they did a master plan alanus Plan update was I believe in 2006 now some of the goals and OB objectives so forth in this um but they're we're good with the 10 year because we're oh no there's no problem with the time frame okay it's whether we can use this as the new Master Plan even though it's entitled to Rea or do we really have to go shared that it actually is so comprehensive that it's really a master plan yeah and you can have reexaminations that are in essence notated Master plans but that that satisfy uh uh the requirements for a quotequote poow master plan so can you do it after the fact well that's what we talked about at that Saturday morning session Steve hesitated on it I mean you know for us to go back and and say well we really did a master plan you know with all that effort why can't we call it that um I don't know I can look into that I just don't want to see the municipality Court short during the cross acceptance process and that's why I bring it up 2006 was the last quote unquote full yeah but didn't we I thought we said in in in the reexamination I thought we had language in there effectively calling it a restated or amended I don't recall see pre preceded uh you know my involvement here in the city but I thought I thought see that it's got goals and objectives clearly spelled out has all the elements uh it doesn't have all the elements that are spelled out in the M Alo for a master plan for a land use plan that's the problem does it have the required no that's it doesn't not have all the required components doesn't that kind of decide its fate that's why I raised it back in whenever we met on our Saturday session what is the requirements to bring that to the next level well um some of the information is demographic information some of that information is the Environmental information now we have all of that in the housing element in fair share plan so it's a simple matter of lifting that from that document and attaching it to this well what do you I thought it was once you finished the fa share housing it was I thought it was supposed to be part of that is it Incorporated I thought it because it was part one of the elements but it never well anyway let's put it this way what we would say to the to the county and then the state is that by virtue of the fact that this was in 2016 and the housing element and fair share plan containing all that other information was adopted in 2019 or 20 um it effectively has to be read as one document because Master plans can consist of multiple elements and Steve is furiously looking at something the the but I think that's the way to get around it so you don't spend money needlessly to put these documents together as one piece I mean we could talk about this more to because it's possible that if the procedures that are required for adopting a MP excuse me a master plan uh uh uh were abided by in F whereas with the master plan reexamination report you don't require the same procedures If You abided by those procedures back in 2016 then you may be able to effectively treat it as a master plan even if it doesn't why don't I do a little more looking into and then you can do the same and we talk later I think that's very much worth investigating yeah maybe they should yeah you guys can Circle back and you know okay bu is us thanks thank you we will do that there was one other thing we didn't have on the agenda which was periodic training we talked a little bit about to Tom about it and um you would we've all talked about it before and uh the chair and I thought that we would like to do periodic training um talk about the Dr talk about case studies talk about things like that and closed door sessions because it's not about specific applications that are for the public to see it's just you know so we're comfortable doing asking the dumb questions and you know learning so I'm sorry I missed a little bit what would be inclosed session uh training training not it can't be a closed session yeah but um like we had Saturday that Saturday morning it was open to the public I think one or two non-board members were there um and we had a very good conversation about a lot of different issues I thought and I've done many of those on Saturday mornings or whenever uh that that uh um but yeah that would not fall within one of although I'm giving attorney client privilege to advice right now but you know we can that might not fall within uh one of the seven exceptions to the open I mean does it have to be does a training session have to be in a televised room here it just has to be open to the public just has to be open to fine notice open that would be better I do think that some of the questions that may have come up last time we did the training it was being filmed I don't know why it was being filmed so very few questions you know I think it it's inhibiting I think people need to feel comfortable and sure open to the public if it must be but I I don't think it should be on the television I don't think it needs to be filmed need people to feel comfortable learning you know the the minimum requirement is that minute say Stephanie and Matt and everybody will tell you the minutes be taken but well it has to be noticed I'm saying in addition to being notic and open yeah but I think it's more semantics I think closed session is is a very specific process for you can only with closed doors discuss seven specific things but meaning just more private the reason that had been filled is there were people that weren't going to be able to attend and it took time to get Joe and a group of people in the room that other future council members and planning board members could at least see the cont content but yes in the future it wouldn't have to be wouldn't have to be filmed I don't think so but those were good just to at least now we have them archivally so somebody could watch them and get the same education right but yeah I I think that Jennifer and I both agree it's uh going through some case studies and seeing how we would actually take some of these documents and apply them um is really helpful to all of us because that's really what we're we're being asked to do on a regular basis and it's uh it's it's it's not second nature well whenever you're ready I assume we don't want to do that in during August we talk September ear October yeah we'll look for a September date I'm thinking quarterly we're we're very interested in doing that that's fine then as stated uh uh we will comply fully with the law we will comply fully with the law didn't realize unless it was an application that it had to be uh noticed and all of that so that's good to know when there's more than three of us or four of us in a room that's the point yeah no problem um all right well thank you uh any other items for anybody on the agenda I give an update from the shade tree Council please as exciting as trees are uh but they're actually I guess um so the forest or the committee we began and have been working on updating our ordinance for tree protection dating back to 22 um and it was brought for a hearing at City Council on June 24th and I believe it was adopted at the following meeting early in early July that basically um it tightened up some of the requirements around The Cutting of trees and the disposal of trees and the permitting of trees and uh the oversight and and the requirements um now are at a diameter of 12 in instead of 16 um there's a ratio of multiple tree Replacements based on the diameter as opposed to the one to one tree replacement that was in the previous um uh agreement there are some hazardous trees that have been Exempted from Fe or being required to be replaced um they've modernized some of the violations and penalties um from the previous uh requirements um and to address repeat and overt violators they also it added some prohibited species from being planted in town um and streamlined the verbiage to allow for timely and environmental changes in the industry without requiring the ordinance to be updated for each incident so our Tre requirements have thus been updated do we know if the DP had approved this and accordingly it's in effect so the during the hearing um the head of DP was not there but she offered a statement of support okay D so D approved the uh okay good they were they were in favor of it I don't know if they approved it Tech I would imagine if they were in favor of it they' either formally approved Pro it or will that's the key now with the uh I think ms4 permit uh requirements storm water Rags you uh all municipalities pre protection removal and replacement removal yeah protection removal replacement ordinances uh either have to be approved by D or they have you have to use the model it's another one of those D model ordinances the model ordinance is good of course with the or you have to have your ordinance approved by the or if not uh modify it accordingly this was a model situation I believe that they took and specified and it was the July I think it got cified in July after the June 24th meting Paul just a quick question how do you prohibit a tree what do you mean prohibit tree well the second and last thing you said was preventing certain well there's some species they just don't want in town like but how would they know so technically um there's you know the ordinance requires if trees are going to be planted or removed you have to get approval as to what trees you're going to replace them with and they're not going to allow certain species because whether it's the ones that get in infested with beetles or uh other issues that the Forester has with them he would not another example is trees that are break in the snow like they just they just what I'm wondering is this only when you're replacing a tree or is this just in general uh the the permitting process is what when you go to cut down a tree that exists within a certain diameter and it requires a replacement that that has to be approved to Po's point but I don't think anyone is out looking for who's planning things so s of stren so yes people people can this is like a if you intend to cut a tree right or do that lied times you'd actually be checking the list yeah Paul thank you for that report actually appreciate it I just I I see on here that the Mount Laurel subcommittee is on here I I don't mind just sharing a quick update on that if that's okay so um Council form the Mount Laurel subcommittee which is a confidential group to address um the closing of round three of the affordable housing um round and then to address round four um Steve spur said on that there's a zoning Board member members of council the planner uh a number of professionals uh affordable housing attorney and the first we we've met about four and a half five times but we we had a lot that happened like I said between new laws and Etc one of the things that will be coming up at a future meeting is the description of a very specific process by which when developers approach the city what they will go through um there are a lot of ways you can approach the city and a lot of times what developers will do will say well I met with the selected official and they love my idea uh even though they didn't say it or they'll meet with someone privately and say well I met with the chair of the planning board and he said or she said so we're definitely encouraging that anyone that's approached by a developer um that they that may have an affordable housing component that they just reach out to me or just refer that person to me um and then a smaller group of that will meet with the individual and gain information the Mount Laurel subcommittee does not make any decisions it only makes recommendations so so they'll just do all the leg work to then make a recommendation to Common Council about how to proceed but we probably will be seeing a lot of developers come out of the woodwork in very short time because there is a window in which you can challenge and not all the rules are set so now is the time when people are knocking on doors and and wanting to perhaps describe the city an ill um it's a it's a good proactive and rather straightforward process so that developers can say they had access to a consistent transparent and valuable process frankly to help Orient themselves to uh what the municipality find may find to be appropriate development with particular reference to affordable housing inclusions and what Mata just suggested is coming to the conclusion of round three obligations and now soon facing round four we're seeing an UPS swell of interest in developers um to want to seize on that opportunity and I think in this case Summit will not be caught flat-footed but will be in a position to really streamline that process provide value to the developers but be really a consistent and fairly objective Arbiter of uh you know what are what are the options that developers have to go forward um not at all removing their ability to seek variance approval not at all uh potentially you not at all removing the governing body's ability to provide for overlay Zone Provisions or God forbid a developer pursuing something as a right um but I think it's a really very straightforward informative uh process and I would imagine a model for other municipalities to adopt frankly moving forward that seems like something should be handled in a compliance point of view too that you should know absolutely you get a phone call thank you so much call Matt and I think as mat as Matt suggested right it's in there's an education for all the different stakeholders you know that may represent the municipality in a variety of different formats attorneys planners Engineers full-time employees elected officials to be kind of funneling folks into one particular path um and and it's if anything we'll just ensure a fair process for everyone um and really you know avoid a lot of back and forth a lot of Confusion And I would argue sorry Steve hopefully a lot of litigation we'd like to avoid as well all about avoiding litigation that's the first thing so it's it's good very proactive very thoughtful I'm sure it'll be refined over time but it's it's a real positive step forward so thank you m um anything else on that topic I just have one more thing to add if we have any anything else on the Mount Laurel does anybody okay and then the other thing is um the master plan is due in 2026 um we're heading into 2025 and I know council is very eager to begin that process I think between Broad Street West and how much has changed in the landscape and how quickly things will change that a master plan would probably be ve be a very good idea and to not wait until 2026 we start budgeting the 2025 year in August so right around the corner so so we may want to start to think about and I know council is interested in councilwoman Hamlet maybe speak further on in September about this but really budgeting and being thoughtful about beginning the process in 2025 um of the board going through a master plan process y it took us at least a year to do just the re it'll take yeah yeah so they the council's feeling well at least certain members of council I I'm not speaking for Council I'm not speaking for every council person but this Council does like to be prepared they really want to make sure they are being timely and and responsive so the good thing is they want to get ahead of that and not start in 26 so um that makes start to think about that as a process that we would go through in 25 Joe do you have any comments on that yes uh use my firm please I'll second that movee yes um no the the reality you have until November of 26 cuz the reacts is dated in November six of 2016 you've got to figure you're going to spend at least a a full year I know there's a lot of very interested people on this board on the council and the public so it's going to be an extended process and uh the sooner you can start with the background information the better off you'll be fortunately because of the timing of the housing element in fail share plan a lot of the information on development patterns the vacant land inventory um all the demographic information will all be done sooner rather than later because that's the information we've always talked about getting out of the way for the housing plan and that that information at least as of now uh by law will be due June 30th of this 2025 yes and what I suggested as part of the housing plan is let's do that now to get that out of the way so we can really spend all our time focusing on how we're going to implement whatever our housing need number will be that number Technic theoretically at least is due to be published October 20th so you can see that you know the timing is is good for all of this U just so you understand I know everybody thinks that the fourth round begins July 1 of 25 but the reality is there are certain information that is now due in midt of 24 so the process um is being accelerated so and to some degree as I've mentioned before front as you know front ended so to speak prepackaged almost well that might be strong front end okay so master plan begin begin a conversation in 24 to budget for activity in 25 so that we go into 26 kind of full in that that makes sense I just uh want to commend the subcommittee on these 10 goals uh and ideas and um say thank you all very very good you know it's some greater specificity than I particularly like the second one as described if people are ignoring the uh design guidelines U integrating them better than as an appendix and and as we're sitting here I was rereading them as well as other things and um and and also the the bottom line on the the 11th point if you will um homework if members do have uh uh uh suggestions uh as was said the next meeting is in for coup months is there a way in the interim by email or otherwise we could get in touch with yeah sure feel free to email rather than extend this meeting yeah yeah yeah yeah I expect this to double this list at least you know triple because there's so much more that we could consider I'm just going to ask one question it's not a specific comment I mean I could talk about the the the the size of the lot you need for beekeeping for example is a specific thing I won't um a general question is in any ordinance uh how to put it Polly the Fatal flaw is what is recommended and what is required right and I'm sure that the subcommittee has grappled with that because some of the wonderful text is just very very advisory and some of it is binding and that might be a general topic of discussion at some right I purposefully made this list about our discussion yeah not text for any propos to trying to be very open in the way I said anything because I didn't want to like impose my view except for the AC unit maybe got and the and putting I think that that it's an easy fix with regard to just the technically moving the design guidelines within the document that doesn't seem like a big topic for discussion it seems pretty simple but yeah everything else I tried to make it very open-ended and then once we prioritize we add to the list and then talk about it and PRI prioritize then the subcommittee I presume will sit with Steve and then try and hash out language which we will then all review on those topics we choose to tackle but when you say hash out language in addition you're talking about deciding proposed language for city council what we can legally make required versus recommended because that's really where the you know the devil's in that detail yeah and yeah you can't enforce recommended really and with due respect to the master plan which is an exciting inclusive process what have have you this is where the rubber hits the road the drro so spending time and prioritizing them according to the degree of public input we may want to solicit and the degree of change we may want to implement is appropriate some of this stuff is very low hang for easy to make in year others we may want to align with the master plan discussions the 55 and over set set asides for example um but I mean this is this is the very substantial point of reference for folks you know seeking permits seeking variance relief um to understand actually how you apply the policy prerogatives of the municipality what is the process if when we go through this if we do have one or five or 10 things that we'd like to implement how does that actually happen we have to come up we have to decide what they well maybe I should let the professional say well are you're talking about the list that Jennifer handed out yeah um that could be done through a subcommittee but at some point um the way the municipal land use law is worded either the governing body could take the lead from the subcommittee or the governing body could direct this board to take the lead that is typically the way it's done because the governing body doesn't want to get into the the Weeds on ordinances so let's assume that the planning board the full planning board in the end will be the one analyzing you know the recommendations and then making recommendations to the governing body once the governing body gets it they'll take a look at it it they introduce the ordinance and technically they have to then kick it back to this planning board for what's called a consistency review well where the planning board reviews the regulations and determines whether it's consistent or not with the master plan they make the recommendation back to the governing body not not inconsist theoretically they might change a word or two and they might or they might change something and then we have to say it's consistent and then it becomes an the way the statute is worded it's a double negative right so you're not inconsistent and then of course the governing body can on second reading after public hearing at the governing body level uh proceed with adopting the ordinance if that's the so so yeah we we can do everything right up to the recommendation to the governing body that's where we hand it off but for that short return for the master plan consistency review and just to add one little thing so we're talking about the big picture you know let's come up with 20 things and talk about them and then you know whatever Rises to the top that we really want to send up to city council we the subcommittee probably would work with Steve to try and get the language right to say what we really mean because you wanted to be specific correct for the drro and and Joe of course both of them and then we'd have you all bless it or tweak it whatever with our professionals and then we'd send them probably they importantly too in this is starting to establish the timeline we would want to undertake on an annual basis because I think we've done this on an ad hoc basis in Prior years but we don't know when we need to deliver you know the top 10 lists when we need to come back with the list of five I started to put a schedule in and I was like you know the next meeting's August and I don't even know if we're having it you know so I took that up it would be great to establish that Cadence and then we'll know how big a bite we can take in future years as well and what maybe needs to be kind of carried on as a multi-year effort so personally I'm hoping that we have gone through added to the list then again Shrunk The List discussed it and done the language and everything be well before the end of the year so city council could then approve it by the end of the year that's what I wanted to say but I didn't because I didn't know if it was realistic or not that's what I think would be realistic if we tackled it you know for a short period of time you know every meeting or every other meeting plus the zoning board report comes out which is a Tickler to kind of tell the planning board hey we did a year of these you're starting to review your your deal one of the last things I did with the zoning board report before I left was we used to publish it at the end of the year now we try to publish at the close of the first quarter so if we have that as a point of reference for this process say by the end of the second quarter we could have a short list available and use the back half of the year to put forward the specific recommendations for revision it's well over to let's do it Jennifer all over to I remember when we finished it we several of us already had a list we didn't do that for next time yeah we already had a list for next time yeah yeah and I can't wait to see what Tom's list is because he's intimately aware he has a pretty decent Siz list that's top 100 that'll get forwarded to everybody too check out and we'll see what what's good about the process and the scheduling of it all you know you're going to be amending the ordinance at the same time you're doing this master plan discussion um what we like to do with our Master plans is on the more controversial issues explain in some in some detail why these or why these regulations are in the good why you've made the decisions you have because that will then help Steve if he's ever in court because the courts always say well where in the master plan does it support yes these regulations and the more detail you can provide even in terms of goals and objectives but we like to do is identify the goal and then we would have an accompanying policy statement explaining the goal because that again helps Steve if he's ever in court of the issu yeah if an ordinance is challenged there's something called the four rig factors for the rig case and the first is substantial consistency with the master plan so you want to have that and that's why the master plan is by definition broader general you know uh uh with objectives and goals and that's as you say see accurately the rubber meets the road when you get to the drro the actual reg zoning ordinances Land Development ordinances but that master plan is very important We Are The Gatekeepers of the master plan I was like to say so so as the planning board that that's important because it has to be well grounded uh the ordinances in that master plan or else yes then I have a tougher time of successfully defending a an unwarranted challenge to our ordinances you want you to have all the tools you need I'll I'll take well thank you folks does anybody have anything else just real quick um my last day with the city is August 8th actually yes so this is my last meeting with you all yes unto the Great Blue Yonder um it is time I've been with the city for seven years but I think I've served with many of you through the pandemic and through Primrose which I think was equally that's tra for schools for dayc carees that's another one we have to put on definitely after peros I was never the same um no but I just want to thank everybody for having me and I really enjoyed service and so the council will be working on replacement but thank you you didn't just serve with seven years you serve with seven years with distinction oh my God your grace and and more than a pleasure to work oh well thank you all it was it was my pleasure and this is one of the best downtowns in New Jersey this is one of the best cared for communities I've ever been in so you have a lot to be proud of and your work in the Dr will make sure that it remains as best it can that way so good job thank gonna miss you no idea dude and then wait wait wait motion denied new chapter yeah good for you all right when's your last day August 8th oh really soon really soon I gave a month yeah Special meeting August 7th that's right well that sad note yeah I'm sorry to Buco but I had a cake or something I didn't want to leave without saying thank you to everybody well thank you no really thank you all right folks I'll adjourn I guess a motion to adjourn so moved second thank you all in favor I I thank you