Good going. All right, we will call the What's the date today? Oh god. November 10th meeting of the Swamps Scout Planning Board to order. Uh first on the agenda is approval of past minutes. Um, Chris had just had a chance to compile these and give this to us. So, I think we should punt these to next month
if that works for everyone. >> Great. Yes. >> All right. Pump that to next month. So, Chris, let's just make sure to add that to our December agenda. >> Yes. >> And then we'll take the next item little out of order just for a moment. Uh, call petition 25-205
Puritan Road by Peter Solaris. I am recused from this due to being a a budding property owner. Um so with that I will hand it over to the rest of the board to elect a temporary chairman. Um I can make a motion
um to I can elect uh to elect Bill as temporary chair. >> Okay. Second. >> Second. >> Can't second it. Okay. All >> in favor? I >> I >> Okay. So, uh 20 20 255
Han Road. >> Correct. >> Right. >> Someone here to speak on that. Well, excuse me, U Bill, but I think we're actually going to um um I don't mean to to jump in, but I
think what we're trying to do is um because we don't have a quorum. I mean, we have a quorum, but we don't have a super majority. So, we cannot vote on any special permits without a supermajority. Um and because Ted has to recuse himself, it's only the
three of us, >> right? So, um the idea was that we would continue this uh without prejudice of course um to hopefully um a meeting that will be scheduled in the very near future perhaps uh next week. >> Next week.
>> Okay. Okay. >> Um >> thank you, Angela. So, just uh to be clear, are you the petitioners? >> Yes. >> Okay. Were you aware of this or >> Yes. >> Yeah. We were told November. I I I'd take a motion then to uh to
>> So I would move to um continue this without prejudice to a November 17th meeting a week from tonight 7:00 same location. >> Yes. >> Uh second >> second. >> Okay. We'll take a roll call vote uh
because we're online. Uh I'm Bill Quinn. I >> Jar I. >> Angela. >> Angela I. Okay. >> Uh with that, we'll bring uh citizen douly back. Uh chairmanship turned.
>> All right. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Thank you for indulging me on that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. We'll see you next month. >> Thank you. >> Uh okay. Up next, we have petition 25-9
for 15 Manson Street. Uh is there anyone here to speak on behalf of the petitioner? Yep. My name is John Andrews. We're with JFA Design Group and >> Yeah. So, I can just get started. >> Yep. >> All right. Great. So, what we have is an
ADU project here. Uh going on the as you can see through some of the pictures here, this will be going onto the right side of the home. Okay. And it is within the 900 square ft, the existing home. uh the course is
over that and uh half of that is will be the 900 square ft. It'll be a singlestory. It meets all the setback requirements, the front, the side, uh of course the rear, uh and also the height requirement.
Uh we do have a landscape plan here labeled L1, very basic landscape plan. We're showing where we would like to put in a driveway. Uh and the driveway is coming off the existing driveway, not off the street.
Uh also in the uh landscape plan, you can see we have just some very basic exterior residential lighting just around the door. And at the back of the building, there is an al cove back there, which is a small courtyard. So
there'll be some existing lighting there. And as you can look by the plans, there will be a uh French door out to that area. Okay. What else makes it? Oh, also, uh, all the walk there's a few walkways here. Just one walkway coming off of the
existing driveway, and that'll be for the front entrance of this proposed ADU. And like I mentioned, there's also an area in the back to get in. Uh, let's see if we could. So you can take a look at EX1 which
shows the existing front elevation and then of course A1 continues on to what it will look like ultimately. And also A2 is the side elevation. It shows you the reflection onto the existing house and roof line.
I want to check to the floor plans. This is uh built on a crawl space, not on a full foundation. Uh that's shown in A4. And then of course you can see two of the floor
plans A5 A six roof plan. And then finally the pictures on the back show an overhead view in sort of not to detail that's on the plot plan. It shows a marking
exactly where this addition will happen. Yeah. We also have here a community letter signed by a few of the
uh abutters 11 Mason 19 and 12 Mason. 11 >> 11 19 Manson and and 12. Yep. >> We had last time there was an issue with the address. All that's been cleared up.
You can see on the plot plan. That's it. We're ready to take any questions. >> Do you have a Did were you able to submit a copy of that um your neighbors support to Christ? >> Yeah. >> Okay. It's in the folder. Great. Thank you. >> We have some more copies here, too, if you'd like to see.
>> It's 11, 12, and 19. >> Yeah. >> Perfect. Okay. Um, couple of questions. The chair, I'm looking to you because I know you would probably know this off the back of your hand. What's the the legal definition of a bedroom? Is a certain square footage
plus bath plus closet? >> Uh, I do not know it off of the the um >> I didn't mean to set you up there. >> Yeah. Thank you, man. 90 ft or something, I'm sure. >> Yeah. And I don't have a um What are the dimensions on the
>> that Yeah, the office >> the office den bedroom. >> Oh, the office den bedroom. >> Yeah. >> Is 8 by 10. >> These plans did go to the building inspector. Okay. >> Before they came here, we went over with
them >> and uh yeah, he said everything was fine as far as that goes. >> Okay. And that office den there too is mainly going to probably be just an office. We do have the closet in there and then we have do do have access to an entry into the bathroom.
>> Mhm. >> Got it. Okay. Um >> so you said there is a closet in there. Sorry. >> Yes, there is. >> Okay. So, the reason why I asked that is because we have a INI fee, um,
infiltration and inflow fee. Inflow and infiltration fee. So, um, I just want to make sure we're calculating the right fee for you guys as part of our decision. I know the building inspector will do his due diligence. >> Oh, I understand. >> Same. That's why that distinction is >> Yeah. No, that's that's fine.
>> Um, okay. The um, is there any you mentioned there's a courtyard here. I see the labeled patio between the >> Yes, that's a patio to the rear. >> Is there going to be any stonework, deck, anything like that? >> It'll be stone pavers. >> Pavers. Okay. >> Y
>> um impermeable pavers. >> Yes, exactly. >> I don't see the calculation on here, but I'd be very surprised if you're in excess of your permeable lot coverage. >> That's what the survey was saying. >> The engineer not near it. >> Yeah, I can't imagine be close. The yard
is large. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Are you adding any landscaping? >> No, just the land just the uh the walkway area in that rib pa area. No, we're not adding any other than that. >> No trees. No shrubs. Nothing.
>> No trees. No shrubs at this time. No. >> Okay. >> Um John, I have a couple quick questions on your on page A4. Um it's labeled as a proposed basement
plan. We do have a small basement, a small section of the house is showing this basement and the crawl space in the rear. The crawl space is in two sections and the rear one appears to have windows, but they don't show on elevation. Are those windows or vents? And if
>> Yeah, those will basically be vents just by the building code. >> Okay, >> that's it. Yep. Um, the front section doesn't require vents. >> We just put them onto the rear section because in the front crawl space there, they're actually talking about bringing that only two feet down. It might not go
the full four full feet down, meaning where the slab is, not meaning in the perimeter. >> Yep. >> So, you would have that would have a slab in it. >> Yeah, that would right. So it only goes down 2 feet, but the perimeter of course all goes around four feet.
>> Any any but the crawl space back here is is 4 ft deep. >> Yeah, that we'd like that to be 4 ft. That's why we put the windows back in there. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> I might suggest making sure there's some ventilation in that front section so you don't have moisture damage to the the under.
>> Yeah. So adding adding a window in there is Yeah. I'll make that note >> just and and this is another just in looking at plans. You know the trouble I make. >> Sure. >> Yes. Because I always look at plans. Um just in that office den bedroom. I'm going to point out that the door will
cover the window when it's open. >> Yep. >> So that you wouldn't have any light if the doors open. So you might look at that door swing and see if if you >> you know if that's the only light source light and ventilation source. >> Yeah. I would I would look at that door
carefully and see if that's the right location for it. >> Awesome. I'll mark that in here. Um I'm I'm a little bit confused on the driveway location. I'm trying to get my
head around it. the the street layout is quite interesting that it's >> it's an absolute it is >> um 90 degree turn. Um and >> Oh, I do.
>> Are you looking? Yeah. So, >> so that telephone pole is not in the middle of the street. It's just >> Okay, I know what you're talking about, right? >> That they've There's no curb line though, is there? >> No, there's no curb up there either. >> Okay. So, it's this sort of free flow black top.
>> It It is. And if you if you Yeah. Right >> now, now I can see it just >> Yeah, it's a little bit confusing. >> Yeah. No, it's a lot It's a lot confusing, >> but that's how we do sidewalks and swamps get a curve. >> Um >> keeps our our schoolaged children
population down, I guess. Um, so, um, okay. So, the driveway is because I noticed the note that the driveway is coming off of the, um, off of the driveway. >> Yeah. Off of the existing. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Great.
All right. [Applause] >> Oh, I see. Yeah, it is confusing. >> Yeah, it's a it's it's an interesting. Yeah. >> Is it Is it raised up? Is that what that darker
curve is? Is that like the raised curb? >> No, I think that's a water stain on the road. It looks like it's it's a straight line here. >> Yeah. >> Not really. >> Got a car on the sidewalk.
>> I think if you look at that picture just out just in front of that. >> Are you talking about to If I'm facing the house, are you talking about towards the left of the house? >> Yeah. Oh, it's it's uh it's they must have done waterline work. That's fresh fresher. >> Oh,
>> um fresher black top. >> It shows It shows in this picture. Really? >> No, that actually is water. >> It's just that it's everywhere. >> Sorry, Angela. We're showing the Google Street View. >> That's okay. I actually pulled up the plans myself, so I have it I have it in
front of me. I can't turn. So it is quite honestly this rectangle >> except >> yeah so a second >> it's in the garage parked >> is it on on >> there's a
the lot line this dash line is the driveways. So there's a there's a telephone pole in the middle of the street right there. >> I think it's supposed to be in the sidewalk or like
that's a sidewalk >> like that's that's well it's it's square though. That is literally a water stain. So the sidewalk would come like this right through here.
But it's interesting because they're showing here's the street here. >> I don't know. >> Is this street or is this property line? >> That's a property line. >> It looks like I I don't understand that.
But any any way that it goes, what's proposed here, if we if we're looking at >> there's a top uh >> yeah, if we got one, [Applause] >> I'm I'm really baffled by this.
>> Do you um at the back of the package there's some pictures there of an overhead view looking down? >> Yeah. >> Does that help? >> Um it does except that it's when I'm looking at this other plan that it gets really confused.
>> What about the plot plan? >> Yeah, here's the this it's not this dark one. It's it's this that is following that. But I guess that on this plot plan
they're showing the sidewalk. It's just interesting. Usually a sidewalk is a right of way on property. And in this case, >> Angela, when you're looking at this, do you see that this um it appears that in
these plot plans, the sidewalk is somehow incorporated into the street. There is no there is no curb and the telephone pole is basically in
the middle of the the the town of street. >> So when I look at it from Google Maps for example, I'm looking down at it and um that same you know water stain or whatever it might be is is there. Um,
but it looks like there's a sidewalk in front of, you know, the house next to it 19. There's a where their property line is. They seem to have a fence. >> I think it's a retaining wall. Is that Is there a small retaining wall in front
of the >> Yeah, stone wall. No, right there. It's sort of L, >> right? And then that seems to extend over to 15. And then once you get past 15's driveway, it seems like um the next house says
Shoreline Landscapes, whatever. That next house when you I guess you turn onto Valley Road, >> it's a different street. Is that right? >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. So, Okay. So, there's And then the sidewalk is gone.
>> Yeah. It's sort of a it's >> that one light pole or telephone pole, whatever it is that we're looking at is is on that, you know, one kind of paved >> area, >> you know, burn sidewalk. Yeah. >> Oh, I see what you're Yeah. >> And that's the city limits, right?
>> Yeah. >> Your neighbor's city of land. >> Yeah. >> That's probably adding to the difference road like >> Yeah. But I'm throw something else in there if I confuse it a little more. >> Exactly.
All right. And I'm I'm looking at these dashes. >> EP elective. What is this? >> What are you looking at now, Jar? >> Edge of I guess EP is edge of pavement. >> Oh, I see.
So I think it's just that it's been paved with no curbing, >> right? >> And no elevation shift >> from roadb.
Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just that you bunch of hot top with a burm on it basically or sort of just >> that's it. utility pole.
Oh, here's the utility pole. >> Mhm. >> So, >> utility pulls here, >> right? >> So, you're saying this line goes straight across to the edge of the driveway. >> Yeah, pretty much. This property line goes up. >> I think that one keeps going straight.
>> And this is Lynn or this >> that you guys introduced, right? >> This is swamp. >> This is right. >> So, this isn't >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> We we're we're not struggling with your drawing. We're struggling with
>> Yeah. No, I'm looking down at it and I didn't know of this one. It's >> like this line this intersection. So it's >> somewhere here, >> right? >> This one goes >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So the driveway that you're posing is basically heading
straight into >> it's just just to the left of the garage. Yeah. >> Right over near the bay window. Yep. >> It's funny how it looks on this drawing though. It's um >> show these pictures.
>> Um yeah, I can see it's confusing. Well, the way that the lot lines are drawn and then >> this is still our this is our that's why I put the right way. >> So, I'm I'm slightly con confused. I don't think this is the best
drawing to look at regarding um regarding the uh I I what I mean I'm a little confused with the story I have to tell you. Um okay, so there's the street and
where's the um the town line exactly? It's right there. Yeah, >> sir. Okay. So, do >> you want me to help? >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And show them when this was here. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Can I go to the screen, sir?
>> Sure. The TV. >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> By the way, I'm Jim Johnson and my wife, we own the 50 M Street. >> Nice to see you. >> Thank you. >> So, better here. >> Just take the microphone if you could. Thank you. Oh, nice.
maybe here. Thank you. So this point actually I hope this will help to begin with is actually if you project this all the way to the behind of this white car. >> Okay, >> the point is right there. So so this line is this line.
>> Very well. And then from here right there what that point is somewhere here towards there >> is the town line >> where's this is my neighbor's uh property already. So from that point to this point you we are looking at this
point to about this point. >> Okay. >> So our lot is actually this this up to there and then back >> right >> like this is the town corner. This is very sharp. And then we just um so this
is it. So this used to be like all all soil. So the town only uh put this road and then this is all >> soil like so we decided to put asphalt there because a lot of people are complaining of falling on the on the road sometimes the mailman the delivery
FedEx all all those sorts of uh yeah who access this road. So the three of us actually this neighbor Marcus which is 19 um Peter Karunos who uh 12 Manson and this is 11. So the three of us just put
money in together and we spouted this uh this part. >> Okay. >> And then you know we then we avoided those complaints of you know people falling on the road especially the USPS people FedEx USPS. >> So yeah that's why it looks confusing.
I'm sorry about that. So again, this line up to this point to there is this line. >> That's your street property. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So the street is actually just this. >> So the sidewalk or what I think your sidewalk is actually on their property,
>> right? >> Right. So that's where a sidewalk would be. >> So you paved the whole thing. >> Okay. >> That's why the post ended up in the middle of the road. >> Property line almost reflects the curve of the road. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So this thing here >> wet mark
>> is so this is your this is your lot line >> I still don't understand why they're calling that out but but you didn't >> that's sort of a right not a right of way an easement
>> can sidewalk >> can absolutely private private property >> so so I'll try to copy this profile which is so this is the start of this point. >> Mhm. >> So that point is this. >> And then to here is >> And then to here is somewhere behind
this card. >> I actually have a nail there with a blue tape. >> Just to know where I you know, we just zoom in. >> Which is this one, sir. This and then this one goes some that point is somewhere. >> Angela Jar will translate for us in a
moment. >> If you drew >> Yeah. And then there. Yeah. >> Okay. So your lot is doing is doing this. >> Yes sir. >> So >> yes. Now that you see this >> shape now.
>> So in reality though the driveway >> isn't our property >> is on your property. Yeah. It comes off of these this point. Yes. >> But I I guess my question is this this mark here is not your property line. >> This is our property line. >> Just this one. >> Right.
>> Yeah. >> And this is but this is town. I don't have an issue with the drive unless there's a reason that >> but this appears the way this is showing that the driveway is coming off of >> the town. The town was paving a narrower
street. >> Sure. Sure. Yeah. >> And so you folks paid to pave town land >> according to this. >> Yes, sir. >> And then this driveway, your driveway really is is this. >> Yes. >> And you're coming here. So, this is
coming off of this is coming off of town town land. This is coming off of town land here. >> And this is just what the town didn't pave that you folks paved in. And then it's public parking.
>> Yes, it's also parking. >> Okay. >> Is that clear? Did I >> You did help. Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, >> Angela will have a photo for you in just a sec.
>> Okay. >> For Angela. So, >> that would be correct. >> But I think I I think I know where he's going with it, but but I Yeah, I'd like to the description would be helpful. >> Thank you. So the one thing that is
a little bit confusing is that the the sketch on the overhead photograph. >> Can I see that sketch? >> The curves basically are different than like >> Oh, the curve on the landscape. >> Well, the curve on the landscape and the curve of the driveway is different than
what's on the landscape plan. The landscape plan has well it sort of doesn't have how it's terminating at the corner >> triangle there >> at the triangle >> but it also sort of feels like
it could be a it could be simplified and easier to use. >> Oh yeah. um by utilizing the >> coming off of the street. >> Yeah. Is there any issue with a separate driveway coming off the street? We're
not >> There's no curbs to cut. >> I don't think there is. >> Um Is it coming off the street or is it really coming off uh their driveway? That's what um >> well, >> it looks like it's coming off the
street, but it's >> Well, the thing is >> is really not I see I see what you're saying. >> That area that that is >> the corner the corner is not the driveway. Right. >> Correct. Correct. It >> because of how the town paved the road,
their original driveway. And you can sort of see in the overhead photograph that when before the neighbors got together and paved the dirt area, there was a section of their driveway that was on town land
>> just in order to get back to your lot line. >> Um, right. >> And it probably ended up Did you build your house or are you the second owners? >> Oh, we're the >> We bought it brand new. >> You bought it brand new. So probably when it was built they've just paved out to the street
>> and and that was just >> bonus land. Um so in looking at that I think what you have sketched on the photograph is more logical because I
think this becomes very difficult and I think you would it would be good to take advantage of that little piece of driveway because you wouldn't you wouldn't necessar the cars would be in the way in the other one >> right
>> so It would. >> So, is what's sketched in the photograph less of a run than what the overhead is showing? I'm going to show you what's basically sketched in the overhead.
And then then this. So, the blue here is what's on this landscape plan. >> Yeah. But the driveway didn't have an an end to it. It just had a a straight piece. So you would have been up like keeping in mind this is where the
telephone pole is. You'd be coming around the telephone turning left, turning right, and in where this would allow you to utilize that strange little corner of your lot >> to your benefit to be able to drive into it. Right. >> Oh,
>> yeah. I mean, um, yeah. Yeah. So, so this this driveway you would basically come straight parallel to the front. >> Increase that angle slightly so it's a straight drive in. >> Yeah. Pretty pretty well straight in an immediate turn.
>> More of a straight drive than >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And then you would pull pull the >> you would pull this out >> straight >> so you didn't end up with too much black top out there. >> Or you could that little piece. Yeah, that little patch that should stay.
>> And you might actually instead of like right now you've got sort of a a curve and a corner, it might make sense for that to be around >> right >> a round boulevard so you don't have a sharp thing to be hitting a tire with etc. >> Right. And then just go in there and then that odd angle. Yeah. Yeah. So it
it would >> so open up that radius a bit and then make it more >> and I I think that would allow So in other words, if this was a round end, you wouldn't have um you wouldn't have a
sharp place there to be hitting. >> Just around, >> right? Just try. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Good. >> Nice. It looks more a lot better from top view. >> Well, it's I'm good at hitting curbs. I
like them to be round instead of angle. >> Well, better on your tires. >> Better on your tires. >> Yeah, makes sense. Thank you. >> Yeah, >> I don't know if there's a curb there or not, but but otherwise, you're driving on grass, too.
>> All right, so I think I understand that. Couple other questions for you. >> Sure. In the overhead picture that we have of the plot, there's a white outline in the back corner of the lot. White rectangle. Is that just the relocation of the shed? >> Yes. Okay. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> Oh. Um.
>> Yes. >> Oh, way back when the back >> Yeah, that is the shed. >> Yeah, cuz that shed, right? That's the existing shed that was moved. >> It'll just move over. Okay. >> And the setbacks on that >> setback is going to be from my neighbor's >> Okay, I can get
>> I I've got it. I've got it. Thank you. the um ADU is there going to be do you have separate heat pump, compressor, air handlers, anything go where >> it'll be it'll be a on in that back one if you look in that landscape plan
there'll be an HVAC unit. Yeah, it's sort of hidden in that al cove. >> Mhm. >> There. >> Okay. So, nobody's going to see that except for you guys. Tell me. >> Yeah. Okay. >> It's town water. Uh it's uh water is by
well up here in this these properties. >> Yeah. >> How swamps got well water? >> It's good. >> Is it good? >> Well, we have >> we have been 0.5 for a glass water treatment. >> Excellent. Excellent house filter. Yeah. >> Good.
>> I uh I I don't think you can make better coffee than with well water. I I because there's no chlorine in it and it's makes all the difference in the world. So >> So enjoy. I hope you like coffee. >> Oh yeah.
>> Um >> just >> I'm sorry. I'm back. >> No problem. While I have the thought in front of me, um I'm going to open up to public comment just in case any members of the public wish to make a comment on this petition. They can do so by raising their hand on the Zoom feature.
>> Oh, okay. >> Or Teams, whatever we're using. All right. Seeing none, close public comment on this petition. Um, I'm just pulling up our criteria for site plan approval here. Um, just to
refresh any last minute questions. >> I I do have a couple other really quick questions. >> Go for it. Please dive in. Um, I still don't think there would be any issue with
the um lot coverage because you've got a sizable lot. Um, >> right. >> I am looking at a like there's on A5. >> Yeah. The patio proposal comes back to the rear of the main
section of the existing house and it's sort of an L-shaped >> Oh, you mean this dash line that's at the very back? >> Is that what that is? >> Yeah. Yeah, that dash line back there is they were uh contemplating doing some fencing, but as of right now >> Oh, okay.
>> just be Yeah, that would just be they were thinking about doing some fencing there in sort of this walkway back uh to the to that ADU unit. Mhm. >> What we show on the old landscape plan is how big we're
really going to make that courtyard. >> So, is there an entrance into the the main house from there? >> From that little >> Oh, >> it looks like there's a door or something there. Maybe I >> Cuz there's a there's a door off the
bedroom. There's a there's a French door uh a glass door off the bedroom. >> Okay. >> Where that was? >> It's from the ADU. >> Okay. >> Yeah. This one off the bedroom and then one next to the kitchen. >> Yes.
>> Those are the two exterior. >> And are the pavers going to extend from the patio to that? >> Yeah. So the pavers uh Oh, you mean the whole rear? >> Yeah. >> No, the pavers will just do where that el cove is. Okay. >> A jerk just mentioned, did it go to the
end of the house of the existing house? No, it didn't. It stops right where the ADU stops in the >> Okay. >> Yeah. In that sort of cavity >> cuz it it's showing on a few different drawings and and I was >> Does it showing on the floor plans different? >> Uh, it shows on the overhead images, right,
>> that were made here and it shows on the um >> Oh, I see. The only place that it shows L1 is to supersede all those other ones. Yes please. >> Yeah. Okay. Um Okay. Cuz I I was just
going to comment with I was noticing in the photographs the stairs coming out of the sun room and just thinking there might be some logic in uh having some relationship. Oh, you've got a lot of patio space on the other side
of the house. >> Yep. >> Yeah. But I was just thinking you've got stairs down into the yard that Oh, I see. You could definitely link over to that, but I still am not I still don't have any concern about lock coverage. >> Okay. >> Um,
>> now the door. >> Yeah. >> Um, in terms of utilities, you're all the utilities are shared, correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yep. And Angela, we discussed it while you're away. It's wellwater. Yes. Um,
>> okay. Thank you. Sorry about that. >> No, no, no problem at all. >> I mean, any other >> um >> questions from the board? >> I guess I was just thinking about, you know, on in terms of drainage and the
two driveways together, I you know, I can't really, you know, tell the slope too well, but I see a little I can see a little bit from this. In any um what I was thinking was is um you know, is there any kind of
drain in the street? Um so like when there's runoff from, you know, snow and rain and so forth. Um >> what we were hoping to do is there is going to be a gutter system on this roof
on this existing roof and the way it's facing towards the front and then we were going to run our drain along the exterior >> and then there'll be a French drain running back and then back to a drywall. They wanted to try to eliminate like you
mentioned any water going towards the front. I mean, obviously some of it, but they want to get it out of there because of the ice and stuff eventually, >> right? That's Bob's going to say, a lot of those roads up there don't have um like sewer openings, if you will, or storm drain opening. So, well, they have
sewers, so they don't have storm drain openings. So there the runoff can it tend to collect and um because you're just you know there's more there's more pvious area with the ADU and impervious
sorry with the ADU and the driveway expansion. I was just a little concerned about that. So that's good to hear. Thank you. >> That's a great question. It is um >> all the lighting spons we like to be dark sky compliant. We don't like it.
It's in the bylaws to be dark sky compliant. Yes. >> Just want to make make sure that's mentioned. >> Yeah. >> Just a shielded over the top so it directs the light down. >> Yeah. >> Um all the exterior lighting. >> And also anything uh we were talking
about um any conditions that you guys like to add to it. That's fine. Follow them of course >> you know to get to get a vote for tonight. >> Mhm. Um so where it's attached to the house is it simply attached is there going to
be any connection between the two units or there it's completely separate? >> It's going to be a connection between um it's connected at the garage level. >> Oh through the garage. >> Yeah. So there's through the garage there's a door. who's an immediate address into the main uh garage which
would be into the main house cuz after you get into the garage then you can get over to the main home and then of course the other uh three openings >> okay >> yeah you know it's yeah it's shown there >> in the floor plan A5 yeah
>> of course that's firated door and all this other good stuff >> okay >> so there's a there's a few there's a few things that are missing here still on these drawings. >> Okay.
>> Um at the look at A2. >> Mhm. >> And if you can tell us what the plan is. So if I'm looking at the proposed right side elevation, I'm looking at the window that's in the rear bedroom.
There's a door adjacent to that >> that on A3 is showing steps starting at at the height of the door. So I'm assuming that's at least a 36 in
slab and then steps down. Yeah. But in talking with the builder, um there was there was a couple of concerns with the with the land there and when they started digging up, there could be cases of ledge there.
>> Okay? >> You know, which could alter a few things. >> So, yes, there is that inconsistency there. But we're just saying that this could be raised up out of grade as far as the foundation go more than the minimum 1 foot. It could be 1 ft 6 in.
And then in that case then we would have a few stairs down. >> Okay. Any any way it goes there's going to be a three-foot landing out there single step. >> Exactly. So >> I think that needs to show up in that elevation. >> There is a door that's sort of a ghost
door hanging there >> that in the photographs is the sunroof. >> No. Yeah, that's off the sunroof. But that door is on the back of the house. >> Which one is that? >> A2. >> A2. There would be a door and then and the photographs are showing
>> the door at the end. >> A door and three windows. Yeah. So that door I just don't want the builder >> nope >> confused. That should be cleaned up. >> Sure. >> And then the other question that I have for you is I'm looking at the way the bays are protruding at the front.
>> Yep. Um I my assumption is that that door that's into the living room is the main door into the into the unit and that the the intent is that's the entrance. >> Yes. >> Um >> that is also not shown with any sort of
steps and the way the driveway is drawn. Um that information is going to be sort of important because right now the driveway terminates into that box bay. >> Yep. >> Um part of it. Yes, >> I think there would be logic in that
actually not like stopping short of that, >> but then calculating out because it's showing sort of patio space there. But the other thing that just as homeowners I'd be cautious of is a door that
doesn't have any coverage over it is very unpleasant to use. And I don't know, is this for is this for relatives? >> Oh, yeah. Families expanding. Uh-huh. >> It looks like it's covered, but I can't tell that that like >> Yeah, in the front elevation.
>> Yeah, in the front elevation, it's shown as covered, but the front elevation doesn't match the actual >> I say, yeah, >> there's a couple different things that are shown and it's very hard to figure out which is which. So, if I look at L1,
it looks like Oh, I'm sorry. If I look at L1, I was looking at the neighbor's house. Um, I see the patio there. If I look at A1, there appears to be a covered porch, and
that it's niched inward. But then when I look at A2, there's not really a patio, a step, >> or a clear idea of where the door goes to. So that when I go and I look at the plan,
there's a patio sort of niched in. >> But that's not that's going to be it, right? That won't be uh a uh a roof overhead there. And that patio that'll be flush back. >> Okay. So >> the other ones are trim.
>> There would be another there would be another step in there. >> Yes. And then when I looked at the L1, it sort of appeared that you were entering onto um L1 flattened the front. It removed the bay on both on both parts
of that. >> Take a look. And then there it is showing sort of access to that off the side. So these need to be in agreement. >> Yep. Um, [Applause]
that's fine. >> The I will say that both of the bumpouts >> don't have a don't have a foundation under them. >> They are overhangs. >> So there's no foundation. So maybe it's because if you can notice in
the plot plan >> Mhm. >> it's just a straight line going across. So, there's going to be like thinking through what that means at that front door because it's sort of going to be
complicated because you've got something that needs to be coming up to either a small step out down 7 in or flush. >> Um, and then you don't have foundation next to it, but that would be important
to sort of plan for. Um, sure. My recommendation would be to probably give yourself a decent landing there and then think about uh probably some sort of path to it because there's the way this is drawn, there's not space to enter that on the
>> right. I I see what you're saying >> on the left. >> And I think there would be some logic in some planting area in front of that bay. Very often when there's a wing off of a house and a driver goes straight up to it, it's where the garage used to be and
someone So you'll want to get that planted so this this secondary driveway looks intentional instead of looking like, you know, >> you closed in a garage. So I think that'll that'll help that. So pulling that out um and getting a a sidewalk off
of that um driveway would make some I think that would clean that up a little bit. >> Yes, it would. >> Okay, >> good. All right. Um, >> okay.
>> Uh, >> any other comments or questions from the board? >> No. >> Bill, >> uh, I think we've answered anything, but do we run through the checklist really quick? >> Yes, I'm planning to do that. Jar, before I do that, any I know you're
still working through some of the drawings. Uh no. Okay. Um yes, we'll go through 5480. Just uh conditions for approval. Criteria for approval. Minimize the volume of cut and fill. Number of removed trees 6 in caliber or larger. The length of removed
stone walls. Area of wetland vegetation displaced. Extent of storm water flow increase from the site. Soil erosion. Threat of air and water pollution. >> Are there any trees being removed for the the construction of this? No. Okay. I think we answered the rest of that with the uh water outflow um drainage
system that we discussed. >> Maximize pedestrian and vehicular safety both on the site and eressing from it. We discussed that at length. Uh minimize obstruction of scenic views from publicly accessible locations. I think that's really applicable. Minimize
visual intrusion by controlling the visibility of parking, storage, and other outdoor service areas viewed from public ways or premises, residentially used or zoned. We discussed that with the using of the uh garage. Minimize glare from headlights and
lighting intrusions. I think we discussed that with the driveway conversation. minimize unreasonable departure from the character material scale of buildings in the vicinity as viewed from public ways and places. The renderings show the materiality continues and matches some
of the existing home and the uh homes adjacent to it. Minimize contamination of groundwater from on-site waste water disposal systems or operations on the premise involving the use, storage, handling, or contaminants of hazardous
substances. I'm not sure that's applicable here. We discussed the um groundwater being handled um already. Ensure compliance with provisions of the zoning bylaw, including parking, landscaping, which we've discussed. Minimize adverse traffic impacts of the proposed project,
of which there are limited, if any, uh and minimize the hazard of coastal flooding, taking into account long-term sea level rise. I would hope this part of town does not have to worry about sea level rise. >> Definitely up in a very, very, very, very, very long time. Um, so I think
with those I don't see any um reason not to grant approval given those conditions that we just discussed. Are there any conditions that the board might think about adding to this? Um, Angela, I'm going to ask you this. Did the building commissioner is usually the
one who decides the INI fee based on the bedroom count? >> Right. >> Okay. So, we'll defer to the building commissioner for INI. Um I just >> comments. >> I just want to make sure we note in the decision that um uh the INI fee will be
you know the board defers the >> building commissioner for the INI fee but making sure that it does apply to this. >> Okay. >> We should have that just for all of our future site plan. I just want to make sure that language is consistent. >> Okay. >> Are there any other comments from staff?
>> Um not at this time. >> Fire. Nobody. >> I would imagine you'd want to make sure you have, you know, sprinklers. Um I don't know about sprinklers, but since it's a ADU, but you know, smoke alarms and all that sort of thing, I'm sure, you know, fire can access it pretty
easily. So, I don't think that's an issue. >> Yeah. >> Um I would just ask that during construction and staging, you um you know, you respect the you know, construction hours, which the building commissioner will tell you um you know, weekdays. I think they you know, no
earlier than whatever it is. I I don't know how but it is now >> seven hand >> and um and also that you stage any materials you know everything that you can you know on the property and not sort of which you would anyway just because you're going to want to get your
you know trucks and cars off the street >> right >> any other conditions the board might seek >> I don't have any >> okay I would entertain a motion for granting a site plan special permit to
55 Manson Street for petition >> I'm sorry >> for 15 Manson Street >> that's all right somebody's already made that mistake the survey's already made that mistake once >> um >> are there any motions
>> I'll make a motion I'll make a motion to um to uh grant cycling special permit for the ADU New construction at 15 Manson Street. >> Is there a second? >> Second. >> All right, we'll do a roll call since we're online. All those in favor? Angela,
>> I. >> Bill Quinn, >> I. >> Jerger Germa, >> hi. >> Tedoule I. Congratulations. We'll get a decision off. >> Thank you. >> Get your decision. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Oh, yes. >> All right.
Chris, I see you have a lovely presentation for us. >> Yes, I'll pull that up. >> And I think it is uh really informative to have seen the lot size calculations throughout town. That
was really interesting. If for nothing else, it was just something I would have loved to have. It's great to see. >> Okay. page on the PowerPoint. >> That is really interesting. >> It kind of goes counter in some ways
it's exactly what you think and in other ways it's not a not at all. >> Byebye. Have a good night. >> Okay. So, I'll go through a little bit just um what I've been able to put together since the last time we met. Um haven't been able to do everything I
wanted to, but um just wanted to go through here um with a little bit about the lot size analysis that we've been able to put together so far. Um but also just discussion of potential bylaw
changes. Um at our meeting on the 15th uh it was decided um during discussion with the board that the expanded multif family use zoning um and updating the sign bylaws were the priority zoning bylaw changes to pursue
in 2026. Um something to note that um MAPC has some technical um assistance programs that my office plans on applying for funding for. Um just wanted to throw that information in front of
you guys. Um we can apply for assistance um for both of these categories or either depending on um what you would prefer from discussions today. Um, and anything not chosen in
this December review could potentially we could potentially submit for other types of funding come the new year that would be available. Um, so I had discussed with Marzy um and the plan is to to submit um for funding
to see if we're able to receive assistance um from these programs available. >> Great. That's great. >> This map is terrific. >> Are are you on the interactive map? >> Yes. >> Yeah, I will pull that up in a minute.
Um >> sorry. >> Oh, no. It's I'm glad you're taking a look at it. Thank you. Um so, this is kind of an inrogress table that I put together just to show what we require.
um what a typical minimum might look like for a certain type of zoning. Um and the the comparisons here. Um so, as you can see, our A1 is the larger lot zoning. So, that's 30,000 foot minimum,
125 foot um road frontage minimum. The A2 is 20,000 foot minimum, 100 ft of road frontage. Um both of those are are single family zoning. They don't allow for multifamily.
Um and then looking at two family and up, A3 and A4 have the minimum lot size of 10,000 square ft. Um and we can kind of go through and take a look at the map and compare um with what actually exists
in today. So this is just a screenshot of the interactive map. if I sent the link to all of you. Um, and as you can see, obviously it looks darker because 80,000 square feet plus
lots take up a lot of the area in town. However, when you break it down by parcel, um, it it looks a little bit different. So, I put together some summary statistics on just number of parcels, but also percent of total town
area that um these classifications um of lots take up. And this is like kind of a crazy graphic overlaying just the zoning districts on top of this existing map.
>> Angela, >> I have a question. >> Yes. the A4 up by the marble head line on the beach there. >> That little tiny like pocket of A4. >> What? >> Um, yeah. >> Was that Is that where those town houses
are? Is that >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can pull it. I'll pull up >> where the hotel used to be, >> right? Yeah. >> So, yeah, it has to be where those town houses are. I don't, you know, I don't remember it being in A4, to be honest with you. >> Huh.
Yeah, I will I will pull it up in a minute. Um >> if there's anything else just a silly question. So basically we have >> oh so many non-conforming >> like >> oh most vast majority
>> and this is kind of an illustration and we can dig deeper in whichever way you want to go after being presented this information. I, you know, put the basic lot size analysis together and if we want to dig into how many exactly, you know, non-conforming lots we have,
that's something absolutely we can do. I think that would be a really valuable exercise. >> Yeah. Um, but any direction we want to go based off of this information is definitely um >> I mean I think since I've been on the board >> can dig into
>> in the five years coming up I think I've seen maybe a couple of conforming lot size applications and that's pro like a couple. >> Yeah, >> I can true >> I can think of one and I'm sure there's another one.
Um, so taking a look at this uh graph, it's basically just the breakdown of percent of total land in the town taken up by these different lot sizes. So it makes sense that the the 80,000 plus lots take up a decent amount of the
percentage of the total town area. And that's why the map looks pretty dark when we're looking at it. Um, but it was an interesting breakdown to see the different sizes. Um, >> you know what I'd love to look at is um
I'd love to look at um municipally owned land. >> Yeah. >> Whether it's, you know, open space or or whether it's um you know, municipal buildings schools whatever. >> Mhm. >> You know, I'd love to see that. Um it's also what's interesting is it shows the
lots that like for example on Puritan you know right along the beach those you know the little lots that are sitting literally on fisherman's beach like some of them are just over the sand and what it shows is that the property line goes to the low tide mark. So I'd like to
look at how much land is underwater that we're counting as buildable land. Um, and this is like all detail stuff, but there's so this is so interesting to me that this so many people you might want to look at. >> These are the types of specific comments
we need um in order to make these numbers, >> you know, what we want to see. So, um, >> well, that's why some of those tiny little tiny lots look huge. It's because of it's going up to the low tide marker. >> Mhm. >> Which is strange because some of the
lots in Swamps Scott go to the mean high water and some of them go to like my deed has one of those and it goes to mean low water, >> right? >> Just weird. I think it's based on >> weird. And it's like this thing from like, you know, 1700 or something. Some crazy thing they put in place because
>> you know what other crazy person besides a fisherman would live right on the edge of the water? I mean, nobody else wanted to be there, >> right? >> And so they had to they were allowed to build a pier off their house >> into the water. And because they could build something on it, they were
granted, you know, rights to that land, which, you know, sounds absurd to all of us today. Like, you know, the beach is a public and you don't own the water and you don't own the ocean and the sand underneath it, but that's just how that law pans out now. And, you know, try
repealing it. So, um, anyway, we're one of a lot of communities that have, I think, um, along, you know, the Northeast that have it. Um, in any event, the other stuff that's really interesting is how much of the land, um, is that's open space. You know,
there are lots that are not built on. How much of that is private and actually buildable? >> Okay. >> Which I think is maybe like I think it's I don't know. I'm going to say it's like 2% that's not either wetland or you know
protected in some way or park or >> um just available land. Um I think you know it's it's incredible how little various >> Right. Yeah. And that's something that we can do. Um >> we can eliminate wetlands. We can um do
it by ownership and anything that's has conservation restrictions. We could take out >> um anything along those lines. Um, we could definitely do an analysis for buildability or just privately owned >> land. >> And I and I, you know, a lot of the reasons we really need to know this is
is really safe harbor stuff when it comes to more multifamily housing. And I don't mean to say that I'm against multif family. That's not where I'm going. where I'm going is because I think the infield housing and the stuff we've talked about is is is the only way to really be successful at more of this
aside from Venice Square and stuff that's obvious. But um but I think that you know when we're looking at the few scraps of land that are left >> um that we have to be really thoughtful about how things get permitted and to
not make ourselves vulnerable to a project that isn't something that we want. So um and I I already believe that we qualify for that um in doing the all the work on the zoning for the um 3A the MBTA communities. You know the the
department of housing community devel or whatever livable communities whatever they call themselves now um had um you know they actually had to bring all the numbers up to date so that we could get exact you know they could do their calculations of you know how much what
they wanted us to build and blah blah blah. Um, at any event, I think that, um, we are we're so built out that, um, you know, obviously we have to zone over land that's already, you know, built upon, but I think it's really, you know,
they I think DHC does have that information, but it they don't have the details that that they would need. for example, you know, conservation land, wetlands, municipal properties are exempt, anything underwater is exempt, including not just on the ocean, but
wetlands. So, you know, it's just stuff like that that we would know best. >> So, if we can find ways to manipulate these maps to get not manipulate, but to, you know, to pull out the the programming details that you need to, >> you know, the search details that you
need. You know what I'm talking about. That would be great. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a really good point. Um, and a good um good feedback for what this map could become and what we could look like, what it could look like. Um, you know, it's
it's exciting. We just got GIS to be able to put something like this together. But it >> it really can evolve with your feedback into the types of things that we're looking to know in order to make decisions. So, you know, more than just parcel sizes, we can do exercises like
this for all sorts of things that um we're looking to do in town for planning purposes. >> Um, >> one interesting thing I wanted to note on this graph here is that, >> you know, the majority of parcels in
town are under 10,000 square feet. >> Like the majority >> well under. >> Yeah. So, it's, >> you know, some something to note um because we don't even have, >> you know, the minimums are much higher
than that for most zoning districts. So, um that's just something to consider. Um >> so 57% of the town pretty much is non-conforming from a minimum lot size. >> Yeah. >> So, I guess what what would we do? Like what's the problem? Would we change the
minimum requirement? Is that the the goal or >> I mean it you know, it's to spark discussion. The goal of this is to spark discussion on, you know, >> Yeah. Landy, >> what do we want to do with this information? Um, >> why >> Well, I think that, you know, you know,
I'm sorry, >> Angela, you were on the board when and Bill you might have been to when they rewrote the zoning bylaws what, like 15 years ago, >> then tw. >> What was I just I I had just joined then. >> Do you recall what what was the minimum
lot size before then? And what was the was it just 20,000 sounded right >> or what was it? >> It was the it was the same. So that was you know it's when zoning was adopted like way back that I don't think we changed minimum lot sizes. We changed
stuff like stepbacks and there were just a bunch of other rules like a processes and rules that were changed. Um some of the zoning changes were good because it >> it um controlled some of the you know um
the the uh site plan um specific things that could be um altered um the kinds of changes people could make and height this and that. Um, and then that whole piece about, you know, two buildings on the same lawn have to be at least 40 ft
apart, that was that came up then and I could go through it and and um and give you a list of stuff. Some of it I thought was really, you know, didn't make it it didn't make any sense to me then and some of it still doesn't. But this case um you know the town knew when
it adopted zoning officially whenever you know way back um that that they were adopting a form that I guess whatever was recommended by the state or what was happening in in town cities and towns all around and um you know was clear
that there were multiple people that you know that were going to have grandfathered lots that wanted to be able to maintain their full property rights and that was kind understood that there'd be this grandfather viewing of um of lots. I don't think that it was ever anticipated that people would want
to expand homes on lots that size as much as they have wanted to, but that's another issue. Um but a lot of people at that time owned lots that were well under 10,000 square feet. Like they own a 5,000 foot lot, you know, 8,000 square
foot lot. and they want to maintain their rights and their ability to develop that law someday. And so there was um it's not in our bylaw, but I think there was some kind of a a state law that allowed them for a certain number of years if they applied
by X date, whatever it was. And there was a certain number of years they had to either sell that property and let someone else um develop it or do something on it themselves before it became, you know, an unbuildable lot. And a good example of that is that
building that's on um Humphrey Street. It's like a two it's like a two family. It's really nice, beautiful colonial looking home. It's brand new sort of it was just finished a year or two ago. It's across from from the not the um yeah the fish from a fisherman's beach
from there but um >> Oh >> um you know closer down towards the what's that >> next to the next to the dentist. Yeah. >> Yes. Thank you. Next to the dentist. Yes. So um that one across that was an
undersized lot that um they had applied for years and years ago my understanding and that they finally decided to build on. So, I think that's kind of how that um that went. And since then, I mean, we just people either, you know, combined
lots or they sold those off and they were build on, which is why there was, I think, at that time such a boom in in um in building. >> Interesting. >> Chris, I have a quick question. In the B3 and the B4, >> all of the brown lines in there, are
those lot lines? on. Um, >> sorry. Let me pull this back up. >> Sorry. >> Those are streets, right? >> Well, look where they are, though. >> They're driving. >> Yeah, >> cuz this is >> Yeah. Yeah, I see what you mean.
>> It literally looks It looks like the parking stalls almost the top of B4. All those little parallel lines. >> Is that the cemetery? Maybe it >> Well, no. The cemetery is right where it says B4. >> Yeah. So, we can >> figure this out. So, this is Oh. No, no, no. B4 is where Vinnon Square is. Yeah.
>> Yeah. What are >> those are drive aisles. Um, this is just the base map that's being shown. Um, >> sorry. They're drive aisles. Oh, >> in the parking lot. Oh, okay. Okay, I got it. And then you go up here and then
those like if you go up >> further up towards Loring, the far left is a cemetery. Okay. So these are making sense now drives and that it's just because of the base map that I chose for this. >> No, that's perfect. I was just trying to
decipher it because I was like, what are these things? >> I I thought the same thing. I was like, what? And then I realized, you know, this it was the cemetery. But yes, this is just how um parking lot is displaying over. >> Oh, right. That's all making sense >> because I pulled the labels on top. So,
it's it's I have to say that there's it's I'm going to use the word comforting, but I find comfort in the fact that we have density where there's density. We have open space where it's public or
the larger open space is that's private is almost all being utilized. Oh, that's what I'm kind of getting at when I talk about safe harbor. There's there's damn little that's not either if
it's privately owned and it's, you know, kind of an empty lot, you know, they're they're either going to develop it or someone's after it to buy to join with another lot to develop. So, there's just very little, you know, and and of
course, those areas are in very congested neighborhoods. um off Essex Street in particular and there's a couple of um chunks of property like that. So um I mean and that can happen. I mean
people can you know build eight or 10 condos, whatever they you know that stuff can get permitted. I'm talking about 40bs. I'm talking about like a hostile development. >> Well, >> that's what I'm talking about. >> I wanted to jump back to the typical lot
size page. Now the cottage clusters four to eight. How many I know that one of the questions we were asking with this is are there locations that are logical for
us exploring this? Um and if so how many? because this is looking like it's looking like quite the high end of our square footages. >> Yeah.
>> Um to spend time coming up with a zoning suggestion. And I just am >> curious what we do with that if if >> right >> it's a cool idea but it's not >> once once we look at the reality of >> where are you going to put it right
>> where where are we going to put it yeah >> right >> between the schools the schools take up you know this municipal land so town hall you know um you know the Hadley for example then you've got the high school
the Clark school the middle school and Stanley. I mean, those are the biggest chunks of land. Obviously, the Tedesco is a whole other issue. >> It's private property and there's, you know, that's, you know, there's nothing we can do about that. Um, other than
that, when you're looking at, you know, Arthur Street, those properties up there, you know, those have been designated as conservation land. Um, so that nothing's going to happen there. Then you've got the quarry which is the um industrial zone cemetery
obviously. Um, so it's yeah, it's it's um it's few and far between >> because I think it's an interesting proposal but >> where are you going to put it? >> Right. >> Right. Exactly.
>> Right. And I know in our earlier conversation or at least when we met in September, we had talked about that a little bit and then decided that the conversions to multif family might be
something to focus on more than cottage cluster. Um due to many reasons and having to prior um prioritize different zoning bylaw changes. Um, but it is definitely interesting to see
what's there. Um, and we can continue to refine this to to really show whatever you want. This is I wanted this to be an exercise to show you all what we can do and kind of go from there as to what we want to learn. um and thinking of how we
can use it to um get more information um and use it as a tool for whatever projects we want to pursue. >> Yeah. So when you look at all those houses, it was interesting too when um when we were working on the 3A multif
family >> um district, we um I went to some event in Boston that was sponsored by you know some group that was um was working with you know um affordable multif family blah blah blah. And it was it was me um
somebody from uh Lexington, a couple other towns and everybody, you know, pulled up their maps and it was I felt like I was looking at a map from like, you know, 1811 or something where there were like a couple little clusters of houses and then just roads and roads of
empty land. I mean, Lexington was like so expansive, >> like little clusters of passing and and they're like, you know, ringing their hands about where to put the 3A. And I was like, oh my. And when my map went last, which is, you know, kind of what
you're looking at. And when I said, well, this is going to look really different to all of you. There's a reason why we, you know, little towns that have railroad stations going up the east coast are going to have a hard time with this. Because when when I pulled it off, when I tell you people in the room
actually gasp when they saw the density cuz it it was alarming comparing it to other communities. Truly just amazing. Um and you know it's it I'm so used to looking at it that I was more surprised
by looking at other cities and towns. Um it's really but it really is something you can see why we need that infill inflow fee. Maybe I'm not. >> Mhm. Um,
let me Sorry, I'm only sharing one window, I realized, and not the presentation. So, hold on one second. I'm surprised there's only 129 in the 0 to 2500 range. And I would bet >> looking at how much white there is on
this map. >> I would bet you the town owns 99% of those. If you go through GIS and look at municipal property that Swampscott owns, there are a lot of lots that are 200 square feet, 800 square feet >> that the town owns for sewage access
energy >> sites for north utility. I'm but I'm looking at areas like uh what's referred to as the uh the counties.
>> Okay. How many small over over, you know, between thems. >> Yeah, of course that's the oldest section. It was, you know, part of Glenn, as you know. So, >> really old neighborhoods. >> No, that's actually not as the the
section I'm talking about is between Paradise Road in the in the railroad tracks. So the counties >> that's actually new new that developed after the Mstead district >> but >> yeah on like Franklin and um Bristol and those streets >> Bergkshire all those. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. >> Um it's funny I can find my lot easily because it's the white in the forest of blue. Put the whitest one on there. A lot of wise ones. See, see these two little that are
floating. Um, >> and there's a railroad beds. You can see where they where the uh rail trail is. You see where branches off right there? So, you're looking at I can't point because you're not going to see my
finger, but that big blue area kind of smack in the middle where you see the railroad line. Okay. Yeah. >> So, right around there. Now watch the one that branches off to the right and goes into Marblehead. It's blue now because obviously we pulled up the tracks.
>> But that was the Marble Head. That's it. Yep. That's the Marblehead branch line right there. >> But if you actually go up on the tracks, there are the original markers are there that say S like granite markers. S for Swamps God and M for Marblehead. It's really cool. Hm.
Not in the location that we're looking at that's on the screen because that's or Oh, that it is right there where that branch happened. Huh. >> Yep. Right here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I can go through um and link this
with our assessor's data for like ownership information and all of that. Um I did >> a lot there. >> Yep. And when I was putting this together, I did remove right ofway. That's why the um >> Oh, good.
>> Because the the parcel layer from the state comes with right >> like right ofway. So, I remove I removed that and excluded it. Um as well as the rail right of this rail right ofway. Um and there were to your earlier point,
Angela, there were some parcels that extended into the water, but they were labeled water parcels. And I removed all of those, which is why you can see right here there's a gap. Um, and then right up here for Foster Pond, there's a gap
also because those were >> categorized as water parcels. So, we can >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> We can definitely dive in further um to all these ones. >> Those are the ones I'm talking about. >> Yeah.
>> That was Yeah. >> Yeah. the postage stamps that go into the water. >> Yeah, a little dumb, >> right? But absolutely, >> it's really fascinating. I I love
looking at this >> and we can refine it to make it more useful for um referencing and and all of that. So I can go in and um identify,
you know, wetlands, conservation land, anything with deed restrictions um for conservation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think to Angela's point earlier, what would be informative is >> town own land, >> all of those. Yeah. Municipal land, >> basically anything non-buildable. So
municipal land, open space restriction, the country club because it's a 61B currently. >> Um >> yeah, wetlands. >> Wetlands. any was were things in the I don't recall Angel is anything in the velocity zone or one of the >> um highintensity flood we have B1
properties um there's a couple well there's a couple on right along Fishies by Mary Allen's house right where partial is um >> or your house too where the part partial lot is in the B1 zone but the way they've changed the zoning by now the
new um coastal flood area um or what they're calling the flood zone, which I didn't see updated in the bylaw, by the way. Maybe my the one I was looking at was old, >> but I didn't see the new um the new bylaw in there. It should be like flood flood hazard or flood plane. I forget
what we called it. >> Yeah, >> that was last year. Anyway, not to bel um but um that does not if any part of the property is in the B1 now, the whole thing has to go under B1, >> right? which makes it in
>> adjusted like Yeah, exactly. >> So, >> um, >> so you could probably pull that from like the FEMA map in a velocity zone out. >> Yes. And we did update >> That's a more way to look at it.
>> We did update the zoning bylaw um with the red line copy. So, uh, we actually have extras if you want a new copy, any of you. >> You know what? I was probably looking at an old one. I, you know, I don't know which one I pulled up. I just pulled it offline and I thought, where the hell is that flood? So, it was probably my
fault. But thank you. >> No, but I think that would be helpful to Angela's point just for >> Yeah. >> ours and other land use boards awareness. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And this can be an interactive map that we use as a tool during meetings,
things like that. Um that shows what is um important to reference. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for putting this together. >> Yeah. And that's great work and very exciting. >> Are you still in the interactive part?
>> Sorry, what >> are you in the interactive part? >> I I was I can go back. Yes. >> Just out of curiosity, if we take a look at the lot we were looking at at the last petition, >> just to see what help it would provide us compared to Google or
>> Manton Road. Where is it? >> Manson Street. >> Manson Street. God, >> this is so >> not Manson Avenue. >> No, but that's the actual property, isn't it? >> This is the property, >> right? >> Oh, and it's labeled Manson Avenue. >> It's labeled Manson Avenue. And I
actually think that the southern part of it is Village Street in Lynn. >> So, this is the Ezri like arc map, base map. Um, we can choose different um base maps. This is just >> the one with the
I selected probably why there was confusion. >> Um yeah, this is not >> calling it Manson Road. >> Yes. >> Yeah. The fact that it's a we had the problem with RSS had it as road. They had it as street. So now Yeah. This source has it as a which is
>> that lot on the corner there is the one we're looking at. >> This one right here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it looks like it spreads over to the neighbor's property, but maybe they're just combining. Yeah. There you go. >> There it is. So the >> parcel lines are a little there's like a
five to 15 foot disclaimer on how they show up with country especially because this base map isn't >> ours. It's like a national one that Ezri provides. It's not necessarily the parcel lines that are off. It's the underlying imagery that might be a
little bit off um depending on where where we're pulling it from. So, um, yeah, it might be it's like a little skewed. >> Oh, but that actually does a pretty good job of delineating what we had to do. >> Yeah, it does actually.
>> But we were just trying to >> Yeah, >> that's a that's a confusing >> situation. I was glad that he was here to be able to tell that the neighbors got together and paved. >> It's not the only one. So you can turn layers transparent. This is like
available to all of you. So if you want >> that shows ghosts that live in the house. There's something sort of >> night vision. >> This is so this is I mean I love fiddling around with GIS and this is this is like thrilling to me.
>> Yeah. And any ideas um >> Wow. >> that you come up with. We're excited about it. So >> yeah, I'll I'll make notes on the stuff I've already unless you did stuff I already mentioned. >> Yeah, I I did take notes, but if you have them ready and prepared, um that
that's helpful also. >> Okay. >> Um then I sorry, I had one last just like overall slide um that was basically just additional next steps. These are
things that I said I was going to do at our earlier meeting >> um in September. So, um compiling best practices and sample zoning for single family conversions. This is on the list. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, imagery andam examples of
successful conversions as well as um getting some information from building and fire on considerations for that as well. So, um hasn't been forgotten. It's it's been really busy, but I wanted to at least show you >> Yeah.
>> that we were able to do some of um what we talked about in that meeting um because we did talk about this parcel size analysis in town. >> Great. >> That's great. >> So, I would take a different side of the coin as my dear colleague Jar here.
>> Um to me that reads as one in five parcels in Swamps could potentially meet that 15,000 or higher square footage count for cottage cluster. not suggesting we dive into it, >> but it was in our housing production plan that that we look into that that we adopted last year. So I would suggest
and again I defer to what the board and your office thinks that we throw that in for a TAP grant and see >> okay >> I mean we haven't had one of those grants uh or similar grant for housing production and kind of zoning changes
I don't know in in some time >> so I think it's worth throwing as many >> rings fire as we can and see what we get and they'll help us figure out if it's worth it if it's not worth it, if it's good or bad, which is kind of over my technical skill set.
>> Um, it also help us with engagement, that sort of thing. So, >> whatever help they give us, I think is helpful. >> Whatever. The one thing that I think I would hope for >> because of the type of impact that that kind of design
>> um before putting something like that through I think we need to have much more advanced re design review than we currently have because >> I'm really thrown by what comes at us um quality of what comes at us and it's um
>> I think it speaks to a lack of design review. Yeah. In this town. And it sort of lands on us >> to >> on the fly >> on the fly. But it's also >> it's also a difficult place to review
from. >> Mhm. >> Because it's it's somehow getting folded into >> what you just site >> what you just had to do with like drawing things and all that sort of stuff. what you had to do doesn't translate well to doing in a meeting.
>> Well, but the other part of that is that was that that isn't doing anything. >> Yeah. >> Like me sketching it to to understand it and me saying this I there there was it would have been such gymnastics to move that into the conditions. >> Yeah. But um you know
>> that would have been a disaster motion. >> The type of the type of review that this kind of cluster housing would need to go to to minimize really negative impact on adjacent
properties. Um we can barely keep it up on small individual buildings. And you know there's there's one coming I'm really concerned about. And I just want to be clear. I'm not suggesting we dive forward with it. I'm just saying if we get a grant and they come back and say, "Here's a way to make it work. Here's
why you shouldn't make it work." Whatever. They're the experts. >> But I agree with you. >> I think before we come forward with anything like that, I I do feel we don't have the toolkit >> y >> to manage
that kind of development in a way that wouldn't be detrimental to our community. Well, that's something I would hope that these folks can help us with and then other grants because a lot of the areas that have that zoning have incredibly strict design guidelines for
>> the applications there. They have, for lack of a better term, they have form-based code for that with requirements for aesthetics that we don't have that if we >> if any town, especially Swamps were to pursue something like that, >> I would imagine that would be a requirement should be a requirement to
have really strict aesthetic guidelines. And I I think we are the scale town. It would make sense in >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um I think where where we're going to run into problems is um and this is just my opinion is where we go with everything is that we don't have the
space to put something where you know something that could for example where you could implement a form-based code even on a you know very small project where there's room for it and where it could actually be done in a way that is
profitable for the builder and you know isn't you know outrageous for um the buyer. So I guess that's where I get caught up in these things is you know what well what we hear and I'm not
you know I'm not in the building trade so you know I'm just telling you what you know and you guys know already what we hear is that in order for an affordable housing any kind of project for someone to be able to create multif
family units and have it be um you know financially feasible is that we we need to have these you vast numbers of apartments and I I just, you know, that's the kind of thing I I just don't think we can support much more of that. >> I completely agree.
>> Yeah. And that's at least the thought process I went down when I tried to look at this was how do we find a way to do the multif family housing thing that we're we have in our production plan but without putting ourselves in a corner
where we're looking at 20 unit plus buildings as our only form of multif family 2unit or 20 unit plus as the only form right >> MAPC and whoever they have work with towns if they get grants I'm sure are um they've done this for so they'd be able
to help. >> And one thing about the TAP program is >> if other towns in the area are interested in the same types of updates, they can do a co cohort model, which makes it more likely that we would
receive funding, but we would kind of be going down that road um with other towns who have similar goals. Um so that's just another way that they can um assist more towns at the same time. Um
so that is very interesting. Another thing to note is I do think it's important to at least do the due diligence um with some sort of parcel size analysis before embarking down any road just because
um in my previous role I worked on zoning audits and sometimes you would just hear from towns we passed this bylaw and we've never been able to use it because there's no real life scenario where Mhm. >> It would actually happen and that's a lot of work to do for something that
sounds >> very exciting and new and there's no actual you know scenarios where it could occur in town >> and that's that's we've done >> that's where my concern is on this >> but that's something that we've done in Swamp's got a lot >> not a lot but we've done zoning stuff
when stuff doesn't happen for a while >> right >> it becomes practical where it's not but >> right so >> that's where I would hope and I've read some of the reports MA the reports MAPC has done on this they give insight into here's the barriers you're going to come up with for implementation. >> Mhm.
>> And I think that leads to a broader more informed conversation. >> Yeah. >> Um but I think it's worth at least throwing a grant application in and seeing what technical expertise they could >> provide. Yep. >> Can't hurt. >> Yeah.
And I can't imagine any of these would be ready for a town meeting this year. I think if we receive technical assistance, it would be a much longer process. And I I do think that >> we would be doing ourselves a disservice
if we weren't adequately prepared um when we brought something before a town meeting. >> I agree. >> Um but that's not to say it's not something we can be working on right now. >> Yeah. >> So, >> agreed. I think my point in saying that was I am not under the illusion that you know in the next three months we're
going to snap our fingers and have some perfect thing for town meeting or something at all for town meeting. >> Yeah. If it turns out we can identify um you know some no-brainer easy amendments that we think make sense. Um you know
that could be something that that we could pursue. Um >> is a minimum lot size change something? I mean, looking at this data, it doesn't make to me doesn't make sense that we based on the minimum lot size we have
are having 64% at a minimum of our lots in town be uh pre-existing non-conforming because we're just creating an artificial barrier. >> Well, those aren't empty lots, K. They're all built on >> and you know what they don't have what they don't have are the setbacks that are required. I mean a lot of these tiny
lots just have houses that are built right out to the >> you know right out to the property line practically. So um I mean this you know it was done because of of you know what the land that was available, you know, so and so owned the land and they you
know their uncle built a house next to them and that became a separate lot. You know it was whatever. I'm not, you know, >> not um I don't have a crystal ball on every single thing, but you can see, you know, based on when buildings were built
um that you know, a lot of post-war stuff, right? Um and uh you know those were and or you're going way back to the turn of the century like you know late 1800s and that was you know parts of
Swampska that were that were um yeah they just cut some of the oldest parts of town basically where people just you know they had a little scrap of land and they stuck their house on it. >> Right. >> So um it's not like we have a whole bunch of undersized lots empty sitting
around. completely agreed. I think >> it would be interesting to know what you know what percentage are >> undeveloped. Um certainly know what percentage cuz when we look at these these counts
of how many we have how many lots that we have over you know total area is 20 to 40,000 square feet we have 392 but I want to know once we take all like take condominiums out of that and we
take all of the developed land out of that >> what that leaves us with um from this 15,000 to 20,000 all the way down to 80,000 plus. Um, you know, how many buildable lots is that and how many privately owned lots
is that in that range? Um, >> that's that's where I think the the story will be told because that is supposedly the range we're looking for. That 15 plus >> Yeah. >> range is the range we're looking for the
cottage clusters to function on. So that makes it makes sense to really know how many we have in there to continue the conversation. >> I think you know similar to the analysis that was done for 3A we need to know um you
know where the wetlands are what the ownership is and um that's definitely something that I can dive into. Yeah, >> I was more asking is that something we should look at? Is that something worth thinking about? Is is that lot minimum lot size the 20,000 plus
>> serving us well and is it the right thing? I don't have a >> Yeah, >> I don't have an answer to that. I don't have a condition. >> You say the 20 thou oh for A1 >> our minimum lot size regardless yeah 20,000 I mean A1 is 30,000 A2 is 20,000 3 and 4 is 10,000. M
>> when you look at the average lot sizes or the lot sizes in town, we have so many that are not forming. I understand they're all built upon. >> When you look at these lot frontages, >> my assumption is these numbers are pulled out of a Midwestern
planning guide from 1954. >> Um where you're dealing with a mile square grid. Um, >> I actually grew up a place where your lot lines, your uh your road frontages were 125 ft. 125 ft here as a minimum
lotage, >> that's three lots. >> That's three lots. Exactly. Um, >> you know, it is it is a case where I I I'll also say when it comes to our setbacks, our frontages, everything
us having these standards to work against, I don't think there's a way to set standards here. >> Um, with the topography and with the existing lots, >> um, a lot of our stuff when it comes to setbacks
should relate to adjacent properties. Um, it's really establishing, you know, if you're not breaking up the rhythm of a street, not, you know, really having a very intentional look at things, not trying to do this with a
with a tape measure, but actually looking at what the what the impact of it, because very often you take this sort of modern impact and you end up saw to a street if there's buildable lots. uh I know we don't have many but you
know it is it creates some difficulties and the same thing with setbacks when it comes to um you know the standard setbacks everywhere doesn't lead to the best design. Mhm.
>> You know, there's there's very interesting spaces where outuildings are much closer to the rear and the side lot to allow for better spaces because all we're doing when you when you increase the distance to the rear and the side
lot and it's a freestanding structure, you're creating dead zones. >> Yeah. >> That accumulate waste and so forth instead of livable large spaces. So I think the intent of a lot of this is good but I think the
outcome from a lot of it is actually not good um for our communities because it messes up with the rhythm of the structures >> and um we are working within a pretty historic context. So >> right >> all of a sudden putting different
policies over it doesn't make sense. more review. >> When you look at this and you see the percentages, it just begs a question. Is this serving us the right is this the best way we should be doing it? Is it serving us the right way? I don't know the answer to that. I haven't thought about it enough, but I wanted to ask the
question and give you one response on that as someone that that has one of these lots that's under 2500 ft. >> The fact that it's nonconforming allows there to be a judgment >> and that's actually helpful. >> Yep. the
>> if we start playing with that number >> then houses become conforming but they can't meet the setbacks or they can't you know it is a tricky thing. So sometimes maybe as they made these policies, they
were recognizing it. Well, that just needs to go in front of a board and decisions can be made and arguments can be made and and so on so that maybe it gives us more flexibility by having more of our odd little lots
out of compliance. >> Yeah. >> So there can be a decision instead of it's just not meeting it. Thanksg I don't know >> I know I've been I've been advised because of the oddity of my lot
>> that it is likely I could get some things approved that don't make any s like don't make any sense for what the actual rules are when you see it >> right you just need streeting >> you just need the finding that it's not substantially more detrimental rather
than a variance finding >> I'm not allowed to wait Okay. >> Right away. >> Yeah. >> Well, >> but not public. >> Thank you for compiling this, Christa. >> Yeah. If any of you have any more thoughts or comments or ideas, please
let me know. Um we're very excited to have GIS I can make any type of web map um >> that you think of. So um yeah, whatever ideas you have that can help us with planning in town. >> Um you know, we can make it interactive.
we can use it as a tool. Um, whatever um, you think that that we need to do, we can do all >> great >> types of analysis. So, it's very exciting. >> I'll glue my list together and >> send it to you. >> Thank you.
>> Yeah. Um, and I know I think you mentioned it earlier, but I did put together the draft 2026 >> Oh, yeah. >> Uh, board meeting submittal schedule. I know we might want to wait until Joe is here to actually adopt it, but please take a look at it. And
>> if you have any conflicts or thoughts on these dates, >> um please bring them to the next meeting so that we can hopefully pass this >> um >> Yeah, I think that's >> at the next meeting. Yeah, >> that's right. And if you could circulate this by email after the meeting. >> Yeah. Yep.
>> Perfect. Just I want to make sure Joe has a chance to look at this as well, but >> Oh, did you? Perfect. Perfect. I added it with the agenda, I think. Okay. Um, but I'll send it again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Mhm. >> So, this is this is the standard second
Monday of the month. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And except for October, >> right? >> Yep. And that was just my suggested day. >> It doesn't have to be that day. If you all agree on a different day to change it to >> um
>> I would think we can adopt this and then extenduating circumstances if something comes up where we obviously have multiple conflicts won't meet a quorum whatever with enough notice >> we're able to make a decision on the fly but it's >> better for Chrisa to be equipped to give
applicants hard deadlines. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. It's also >> and for us ourselves >> it's also for reserving the rooms in advance. It's it's extremely helpful. Um because I know sometimes >> we're all happy to be in V129. >> Yes, >> we're very happy to be here.
>> So this way we'll make sure like at the beginning of the year we have all of the dates reserved. >> The uh >> we are quite fortunate holiday wise on >> yeah that >> there's only one Monday. >> Yeah, second Monday maybe that just
doesn't land as >> severely. Any other business? Not reasonably foreseen. >> Um, just take a look at the minutes for next time. >> Yes. >> And I will email those to you, Angela. I
printed them out. Um, but I'll send you a copy. >> Thank you. >> Any motions to adjurnn? There we go. >> To adjourn. Uh, so move. >> All right. Second. >> Second.
>> I'm just Okay. Uh, all those in favor, Angela Epilo, >> hi. >> Uh, hi. >> Bill Quinn, >> hi. >> Germa, >> I >> All right. Thank you. Thanks, Angela. Bye. Bye. >> Thank you. >> Bye. >> Bye.