Thanks. >> Hi and welcome to the um our October meeting of the Swampscott Zonian Board of Appeals. Um the first item on our agenda is to approve the minutes from um last month. Not the minutes from last week's meeting, but the minutes from um
the previous month that we all received. Um can I just get a motion to >> I'll make a motion to approve the meeting minutes from last month. >> Get a second. Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Excellent. All right. The our next item is um
petition number 2517 which is 40 um Essex Street and 24 through 26 Essex Street. Um and that is for the um extended use of a pre-existing repair garage as well as um
the addition of a spray booth. Um who's here to speak on that question? Good evening. I'm attorney Sam Vitali. With me is Janiro, uh, who is the principal of Lai's Garage LLC, having acquired, uh, that entity, uh, in the
fall, I think, of 2022. He's also the principal of Realy Investors that owns the real estate at the Locust. Uh, and as the chairwoman indicated, we're here to get approval of a special permit with respect to the addition of a a spray
booth at the location. Um, as probably people in this room better know than I do, the history of this site, I think, is well known by most Swamp Scout residents. Um, Lai's Garage, I would think, has been close to a century. In
the 1930s and 40s, it was uh organized with John Lai. uh and then subsequently was run by Bob Wilson and then uh Janiaro inquired it uh and with it the assets of the business as well as the permits and approvals that have been
there. It's been used continuously uh with respect to auto repair. I think anecdotally and from what I've been told by swamps residents and historically there was body work done there. People have given me stories that John Lai used to go down and get the police cruisers
when they were in an accident or other city-owned uh vehicles, bring them back to a shop, fix them both whether it was bodywise or mechanical wise. Uh the reason we're here is that like many businesses uh the technology is now
changed. Uh well, no longer can anybody have a spray booth and jury rig it and build it in their backyard. Uh this is a highly regulated uh piece of equipment. Uh the manufacturers who distribute them are well aware of the regulations that involve the environment
uh fire suppression. And so typically when you acquire one of these machines, it comes with all of the uh bells and whistles that ensure protection of the environment, protection of the site. Um, and we're not asking you to wave any of those, nor do you have the authority.
But any jurisdiction that has uh any authority that has jurisdiction, whether it's over the environmental aspects, uh the fire prevention, uh the uh use of the interior of the building, uh we have
to comply with. So this is a stop along the way. Your approval is really related to the zoning use. uh your current table of uses, I think it's number nine uh in the B1 districts, uh has does not have this as a permitted use. That's why it's
a pre-existing non-conforming use. It's been there uh prior to the adoption of zoning. And what we're proposing to do is essentially the same type of use uh in the similar manner. uh and we think it will have little or no adverse effect
on the uh neighborhood let alone a substantial detrimental effect. So let me go through and and reflect on why I gave you those items with respect to the uh current use the automobile business and the repair business has changed.
If you have the misfortune of having to get your car fixed or repaired from an accident, you'll find that uh they'll use a tablet to make a diagnostic determination of what's wrong with the engine. Uh they don't even lift the hood anymore. Uh they just plug in this
tablet. And likewise, if you have uh body work that's done and and you've got an outstanding color or whatever, they punch in the information on your vehicle and up comes the the paint that they should use. So, uh, and as I look around this room, I don't think there's many people, uh,
as old as I am, but I can tell you that on Tuesday nights when I was a kid, people would watch at 8:00 Milton Burl on the show of whatever he had, it was a little 6in black and white screen brought to you by Texico. And why I
point that out is that if you if you have any memory like I do of those ads, there would be a gas station attendant who would come and clean your windshield and then he would check your tires and then he would pump your gas uh and then if you were really lucky, they might
give away a set of glasses or whatever. I've had the good fortune to represent mobile oil and uh Shell Oil, and I can tell you that's not what the modern gas station is like. nor is it what the modern auto repair and body shop is
like. The reason we're here is I indicated if you look at that table of uses. But what I also did is I looked the uh ordinance definition of what we're seeking and that is it says this is from your definitions. It says, "A motor vehicle general and body repair
shop, an establishment, garage, or work area enclosed within a building for the servicing and repair of autos, including fenders, bumpers, and similar components of motor vehicle bodies, but not including storage of vehicles for the
cannibalization of parts of fuel sales. So, it tells you what it is, and it tells you what it isn't. Our proposal doesn't change the footprint of the building. Uh if anything, the exterior will be improved. Likewise, in the interior of the building, it will be
state-of-the-art equipment. Uh I looked over today a specification and I brought few of the pages from uh a manufacturer of a spray booth. And I saw great attention to detail to issues like fire suppression, issues like particulate and
how what to do with the pollution. I talked with Jarro and with respect to the venting of anything, it would be on the side that faces the building he owns, which is the smaller building of Lai's garage. The work we're talking
about is in the larger building in the interior within one safe uh frame. Uh when I filed the application, I thought I addressed each of the items for your
special permit criteria. One of them did deal with the environment. It's the same hours. It's the same location and it's uh what we want to do is add that one other service which is uh the body work
in terms of 486 finding. uh as you are well familiar it relates to whether you what you propose to do is substantially more detrimental and its effect on the neighborhood. I would suggest to you this isn't even more
detrimental. It's similar to what had been done in the past uh and now it's going to be done properly uh in a better manner suited for the current nature of the auto repair and auto body business. Uh so we
would be hopeful that this is I indicated our first step along the way. Should the board choose to approve and grant and make the finding for the special permit then we would have to deal with the fire department. We would have to deal with the building
department. But as far as uh abregating or seeking relief from any uh current existing DP or EPA or any regulation that relates to uh the environment and pollution or to fire safety, we're not
seeking that. We're seeking to play by the rules to do it better than it has been done in the past to create some work opportunities for people within the town and more importantly to provide a service that we think the citizens of the community may well have need for
whether it's auto repair or auto body. I'd be glad to answer any questions any member may have. >> Um so is there a um spray booth there now currently? >> No. There is there is not and there hasn't been.
>> No, I I I don't I can't speak to the past with John Lai because I hadn't been in the garage when Lai owned it. Uh I don't know. I just know what people told me about what transpired in the past. >> Yeah. So, but right now there isn't a working spray booth. And what are the
current hours? Just for the record, >> the current hours >> hours are staying the same. Remaining >> 7 to 5 hours. >> Thanks. Mr. Fatality. So what use that is? What I'm trying to figure out is whether what protection you have under 40A
for the pre-existing non-conforming use and how far that goes. So is there has there been historically painting of vehicles there just not in a spray booth? Has there been body work? What? >> Well, I I only have uh anecdotal I don't
have uh I can't speak firsthand to the approval, but let me just say to you that with respect to the criteria uh for what we seek, um I'll fall back on my uh Jesuit training and philosophy. The
essence of what we're talking about in that definition is motor vehicle repairs. that that's that's why it's substantially the same use and substantially the same manner. What we're asking about is an ancillary use, another use, an auxiliary use, and that
is to do body work. To do body work safely and to do it in accordance with the current requirements, you need a configuration called a spray booth. Uh and those are regulated uh by uh other authorities. But in terms of the nature
of what we're seeking, we're just seeking a further extension of what we believe has been the use, continues to be the use, and was once the use, maybe not the approval of this board or other boards because it
dates back so far. But to have a spray booth in this current environment, you have to have one that satisfies the uh requirements of the state and the federal government with respect to the environment. the manufacturers who make them build them with that in mind. So
they satisfy all of those. So we see this as uh offering another service that relates to motor vehicles. And that's why I read the definition which clearly indicates that when it says fenders and bumpers and other parts of vehicles that
body work and uh that's that's how it's defined in your zone ordinance. Uh what we seek is the approval of the board that that activity is not substantially more detrimental in its effect on the neighborhood and I don't believe that it is.
>> So your position is that it's an accessory use that's already going on there and you're looking to expand that expens that it's that I think it's an extension of the use that's there. Yes. And but I think we satisfy the criteria for that.
So, as far as the way it's you're asking for two things. One is the continued use and the other is the spray booth. Do you need any relief for the continued use? If the continued use is is that just a finding that it's continued use, would
you agree? Like that's not a new >> that's just what I was saying. >> It's a permit like because you can't get a special permit for for this use in this location. >> You can't it's the answer is it would be a variance because it's no >> the table of principal uses but an accessory use is permitted under our
bylaw if it's customary customary and incidental to the principal use or if there's protection of the use. 4A lets you expand a pre-existing non-conforming structure. We've been
familiar with that, >> right? >> And same thing with with use if it's my understanding is if it's customary and incidental. So the I think the analysis is if the
use that was proposed was an expansion of the use such that it would become an additional principal use then the analysis would be okay can we grant relief there our bylaw says no so
if I heard that if if I heard that it was going to be 80% occupied by this paint booth for the work and now the mechanical work was going to be 20% >> secondary. Yeah. >> And that was going to now be accessory and we had it flipping. I would say that
would be a new principal use. >> So I I'd love to know just how much if if there's a a square footage of how much space the paint booth is going to occupy as part of the premises. >> I think the building is about what 5,000 gross square feet.
>> Just over the booth would occupy less than a thousand. >> Right. Yeah. I was going to say that the specifications I saw show booth to be that >> past that part of the analysis that I would see that it's not clearly a new principal use because it's the dominant use.
>> And in number nine for for our zoning bylaw, we have motor vehicle general and body repair under the same use. Yeah, we we had I'm sure Andy remembers years ago we had a lot of a couple of different cases with this light service.
>> You remember those? >> Yeah, light service is its own use though where >> reme it was his it was his >> but that's light service whereas we have this is not light service. This is this is pre-existing auto repair shop without a doubt and that's under number nine and
that does include in our bylaw body repair as part of that. Not yet. Is >> that where the spray booth is going to be in the existing? >> It's in It's in >> Since everything's inside the existing Essex Street, >> correct? The big building. >> It's in Congress to think that you could
do repair work and not like paint the car. What are you going to do? >> It's it's what? >> It's in Congress that you you can do you can repair the car, fix the dents, and then you're going to leave it unpainted. >> Well, a lot of repair shops aren't auto body shops, right? Auto body shop to get to get body work.
>> Not everybody does body work. And that's one of the reasons I'm sure they're looking to expand. It's it's become a a smaller >> um volume of of businesses that are doing the body work >> because there's a lot more that's involved in it than
>> it's like putting a dry cleaner in and exactly >> it's going to dry clean on the site as opposed to drop off and you're all concerned about the environmental issue. >> Yeah. Right. >> To elaborate on what you said about the use before. So in the 60s,7s and 80s, a spray boot was a room that somebody
built with an exhaust fan that shot everything outside. >> I remember him well. >> Correct. So when you fixed a car back then, if it was a police car, you took the fender off, you painted it, it was done, you put it on, didn't match, you told them, "Here you go." Today, the painting is so far advanced. There's
5,000 colors. So you need this high-tech booth, which everything that attorney Vitali said encapsulates the filter system. all of that stuff. So back when Starbucks sold John Rally painted cars while Bob Wilson fixed the truck, there was no protection. But the booth was
>> But that's the So are you do you personally know have you observed that he was in the building painting cars? >> Yes. Bob Wilson. Yes. John Lowry, unfortunately. No. >> Okay. >> So in 1986, Swampstead High School graduate, my car got smashed up. Lai
Stony came for the police and towed it away. This is before I had my own business. They brought it to their shop. They repaired it. It was a 1986 iRock. They fixed it. Gave it back to me. They charge the insurance company. So, yes, they fixed cars in the 80s. Did they have a proper spray booth?
>> But I'm I'm more concerned with with with what you said that there the use was ongoing at that time. >> But I don't but the use wasn't the use isn't currently ongoing and it hasn't been for years. >> Well, you can you can abandon a use. >> You can abandon use. >> You know, you have two years of non-use.
>> Okay. Okay. Bob Bob Wilson always operated. He only fixed cars for friends. He only charged people very little. It was time for Bob Wilson to retire. So we bought the business. We put a tenant in there who was going to repair cars, fix cars, and sell tires. Unfortunately, he failed. So now here we
are back with a building that we paid a lot of money for, my sister and I and my family, and we're looking to rent it. Everyone who's come to us to rent it wants to be in the body business. Also, I'd like to note that less than a half a mile away, there's a giant body shop next to the gas station right across
from the school. It's in this area. It's nothing. Swamp Scott collision is right there. >> Right there. And he has all the updated stuff just like we will, but we're having a hard time finding a tenant to continue the existing use. So, we're asking for the
use of the body shop with a high-tech spray booth, which protects everybody. So, are you close to the two years on the use or are you >> No, we've we've never stopped using Okay. >> It's being used right now. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Does anybody else? >> Well, I think I think it'd be I think
it'd be interesting to hear if any of the neighbors have observed >> they may have observations or they're that they've seen or they've smelled, you know, pain and >> does anybody would anybody like to speak? Just um state your name and address, please. Michaelia.
>> Oh, you got a microphone. 19 Essex Street. Um, I would like to attack this from a little bit different angle, from an environmental one. So, um, I'm going to read you some things. Um, Essex Street is already a corridor for particulate matter pollution because it's a busy
street and also a truck route, even though not designated as one. This is the same size particle pollution as can be generated by a car spray paint booth and of the size most hazardous to human health. I am appealing for not adding more possible pollution to our street.
Whatever pollution control system is installed for the filtration ventilation for the paint spray booth, how will we know if it is malfunctioning and are not complying with EPA standards for 98% collection of emissions? They may qualify for a permit exemption, but even
with a permit exemption, there are still permit exemption requirements that must still demonstrate compliance as outlined in the exemption permit with detailed monthly records. But they won't be required to submit those reports to the DP, which will no longer have authority.
The only thing we can do is report odors or dust to the board of health, but by then it's too late. We will be the guinea pigs for any pollution violation. and also some volatile organic gases are odorless like benzene which is a known human carcinogen and produced in a spray
paint booth. It is also important to remember that odors are not just odors. If you smell something you are inhaling its particles or gases, whatever size they may be. I do not garden in the front of my property when traffic is thick because if I do and I'm there long
enough, I start to feel sick. Also, I don't open windows at the front of my home as I would soon be able to run a finger across a piece of furniture and it would come up black. This is from traffic fumes, the products of combustion of gasoline and diesel fuel. Again, the same size of particle that is
part of the pollutants from an auto spray paint booth, both of which can contribute to early death for millions of Americans. I think we should also know prior to any decision exactly who the manufacturer is and what the model number is for the filtration and
volatile organic gases like benzene and if it is a if it has a gas scrubber like charcoal. Volatile organic gases are produced by products used in a car spray paint booth. Can we please put people in front of more possible pollution on our
street? We have more traffic re Elm place and soon another eight residential units directly across from 40 Essex Street which will add more traffic and children already playing on two sides of the property. I'm hoping you will protect us from more possible harm to our health. I am hoping you will look
out for us in a preventative precautionary way similar to the European Union's policy called the precautionary principle which I've admired for many years. The EU's precautionary principle is a policy that allows for the taking of preventative action in the face of potential risks to
human health, animal or plant health, or the environment. It enables authorities to implement provisional risk management measurements such as restricting products or halting certain activities when there are reasonable grounds for concern that potential harm could occur.
Um, so I'm asking you not to add this potential burden to our neighborhood. And again, those detailed monthly records have to be kept, but the DP doesn't receive them. They don't have the authority to receive them. The board of health could
ask for them, but is the board of health going to ask for those detailed monthly record records every month, or are they just going to look into it when one of us complains about an odor? And again, some of these odors are odorless, and we won't even know if we're breathing them.
So, thank you. And thank you for the abutter's notice, too. Thank you. >> Does anybody else have >> I I I just had some thoughts on this. Just just um >> personally I see our jurisdiction as we don't have the jurisdiction to
give relief and give a special permit for a new use here. ICR jurisdiction as to make a finding as to whether or not the existing accessory use is present and if the proposed use is
within that use and not becoming a new principal use. I don't know that we in terms of the because we can't say okay you're not doing it you can do it. I don't think that's what we have jurisdiction to do. moving already. >> Um,
>> they're currently not doing it because that's why no one wants to rent the space because there's not the space to do it. So, they're not doing >> Well, they don't have a paint booth. They don't have a paint. The question is, is the I see it twofold. First, is there currently
um body repair being conducted at the property in painting? And then if so, is the addition of the paint booth um still an accessory use? An expansion
of that access accessory use, but not such an expansion as to become a new principal use. That's how what I see our analysis of on this. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I definitely see it as a new a new use in that it's not
currently >> usually be used as it because they don't have the right equipment so it can't be used now. So we know that the use >> the use ended at some point. >> Well, no no but I I see it a little differently. I see it that the use doesn't need to be made
fully. So, let's say back in the 1990s, they had a bay that was dedicated to painting cars, okay? It didn't have a lift in it um for mechanical repairs. It was just dedicated. And there's never
been a booth in the in the property, but they were continuously painting cars. And maybe that slowed down a bit. Maybe they they if but if there was that use that was not abandoned for a consist for a 2-year period then it continues then I
think it's a valid accessory use um my opinion and that's the way I understood um the presentation I I you know if if >> and well then if we argue if the
argument is that it that it has they have lost let's just say that use hasn't we it has been suspended for more than two years. Yeah. Then the question is is this >> um in similar to you know are are you creating a new non-conformity is this
use substantially more detrimental than the one use that has >> I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's the analysis. I think it's a substantially more detrimental analysis because that's if we were granting a special permit. We don't have authority to grant a special permit. I see where we have a very narrow window
just to make a finding or not make a finding that there's been this continuous accessory use. So I I had a case the appeals court before accessory use Simmons vzoning board of Newberry Port and my client had horses on a
residential lot right next to the Anjakes Hospital and the building inspector wanted a well at first it was a request that they remove them and we argued that they were kept as pets and it was an accessory use even though they occupied
an acre of the property and the house was on a small piece of it and the appeal court agreed that they were kept as pets and it was an accessory use. And it's the same analysis that I see here that the question is they got to prove
that it's it's accessory that it's um incidental and related there too and that it hasn't been abandoned that it was there was been a continuous use for body work over
um the entire period of time up to today. It doesn't mean that they have to be painting a car every day. It can be very intermittent in my mind, but it's that's a question for the for the board to make that finding. And you know, reasonable minds absolutely can differ as to whether or
not they make that they can prove that. what what I what I was going to say as to what I would want to put in for evidence if I were uh the petitioner. I'd want to go go to my paint supplier and get the records that show look
once a month we were getting paint dropped off here for the past 30 years. You know, that would be persuasive to me. >> You're saying that really it's, you know, we're listening to the neighbors, but the real issue is that We don't have
enough material to make this decision. Now we need you based on your analysis, you're putting it back on the petitioner to say give me some proof. >> Well, we we have some we have testimony. I don't know that it's enough. You know,
it's from 1986 that you got your car painted there that you observe them doing painting. uh it would be a lot stronger and that's that's what >> so can >> everybody gets their paint from the auto
it's it's it's a they get their paint from the the supplier for the auto paints >> so I guess the question is >> and it it could also be >> body parts too right >> it could be getting showing invoices that show look we were getting here's a bumper here's a fender
>> but I think that goes back to what we were saying earlier where if you're getting parts that that necessarily implies that you're getting them painted on site. And I don't think that's necessarily true. >> That's that's a good point that it doesn't necessarily prove that. But but >> but the paint order or something like
>> the paint order would Yeah. >> So I guess I guess the question is >> or parts for the >> petitioner. Can the petitioner produce some document >> equipment? Yeah. Show that you've got >> um paint guns >> paint. So,
can I don't know the paint laws, but can you paint vehicles or parts without a a paint booth? Meaning to the extent that prior tenants have been painting parts before today, is it in compliance with D
or EPA or whatever? Like >> spray can >> you? That's that's my question. You can paint them with a spray can. >> Right now, we brush. >> You brush. Okay, >> there's dump many dumpsters in there. Thousands of dumpsters have been painted. I could show hundreds of these
seats for the paint. No problem. But it's all brushed. >> Okay. >> We don't painting dumpsters, not vehicles. I don't know that that's auto. It's painting. It's accessory use. >> Correct. >> But I the the real key here Well, >> did I personally spray any cars? No. I'd
never lie to the wood. Did the tenant I had in there? Yes. Did Did Bob Wilson? Yes. Did John rally? Yes. You can't get everything. >> So if you if you knew who his paint supplier was and you could go to them and and get the paint records, that
would be very persuasive. >> I I think the reason we advertise and put the words in there is we want to do it the right way. We want to do it in conformity. Yeah. >> What the D says and the EPA says, what
the fire department said. So we ask we're asking to formalize something that as I indicated in past years people had a different view of how to do some of those things. We want to do it right. So the request was to allow us to continue
to do that activity with a spray booth. >> Right. And I think we have the authority >> is a is a technical it's a room essentially. >> Yeah. I'm I'm I I understand what the spray booth is, but the um I I think we
have to I I see that we have authority just to do it as an accessory use, >> right? The methodology of how you're going to paint the cars isn't what's an issue here. It's whether you've been painting the cars. >> Yeah. Even if it wasn't >> compliance with your tongue, you know, >> is that enough to trigger 4DA
protection? >> So, so that was that kind of my question kind of goes to the point you're making right now. Is there any documentation that the use of spray cans or paint brushing any vehicles in the past, I
guess, two years? Is there would there be records of that from anybody? Because wouldn't wouldn't records of that type of painting check the box you're talking about, Mark? >> Yeah. If if if they had receipts >> receipts for the work done, receipts from the supplier >> showing they had the purchase of paint
guns or they use compressors typically if they're using a >> well or if you receipt for the guy I painted your car, I painted your car. >> Yeah. Customers receipts. >> Any of that would be persuasive to me >> because in reality, >> but there's evidence of the use.
>> The contamination issue is it's not our jurisdiction. You know, >> we can't say if if we don't think so, let's say it's been abandoned, >> they can't prove it and they say, "Well, we want >> we want relief. We want a special permit to start doing that or to renew it, start after two year abandonment." We
don't have authority to do it. >> Okay. I was going to say, "We don't have the authority to to say >> a separate principal use." >> The It's like the issuance of a building permit. It's not us. It's the building department. We just grant the permit, then you got to comply.
to comply with everything. >> Yeah. And that in that our our um our our building commissioner did >> present a you know very lengthy analysis of all the different >> requirements that would need to be met
if this was approved. Um the the um you know all the updates to the code and everything like that which I'm sure you're well aware of and that would that would not be our jurisdiction. That would be something we would that would our building commissioner um would enforce at that point.
>> But um all right. Did did any of the other um >> so Charlie Patio's 130 Atlantic Avenue Swamcott um I'm also the chair of the Swanscott Housing Authority and the largest abut butter to the parcel and you might recall some time back the
housing authority had verbally entered into an agreement to try to acquire the parcel to develop it into housing. and we worked with the state and the determination was that it wasn't a suitable site for us to continue pursuing it for housing. Um, at that
particular time I had walked the property. I had gone inside the building. Um, and in the one corner, um, and I hope this helps. In one corner in the back, I remember where, um, uh, they used to paint the cars. And the reason I
remember that was because Ricky Wilson was my next door neighbor on Greenwood Avenue. And in a snowstorm, he hit the side of my car. And so he said, "I'll fix it down at the garage." And so they brought it down there. They fixed the rear quarter. they popped out the dent and they they they painted it. Um it
wasn't a big job but it got done there. Um uh as far as the housing authority is concerned when we had looked at the property and we had um asked for uh some time to evaluate it. We had done some environmental testing on the site um
record search wise. We hadn't found anything that was troubling to us. Um uh with what I just heard about the spray booth and the uh where they're placing it, I don't think the housing authority has any issues with that type of filtration, especially if um those extra
measures of uh the health department and other agencies of the town which have the authority to inspect and supervise something like this, the housing authority um is not opposed to it. Um uh so we're happy to to send that in writing to you if that would be helpful.
And uh going back to the um uh uh my knowledge of John Lai I came to town in n early 1990 and uh I like old cars and so Mr. Lai John Lai had parts for Model A's in there and uh and I had
asked him one time what that stuff was that he had in the corner. He said, "Well, we used to use lead when we fixed the cars, the dents. So, we used to heat up lead and we'd put lead applications on it." And there was pictures, unfortunately, I'm sure they're gone now, of him working on old cars, 30s and
40s and 50s, and and in painting them. I don't know exactly how they did it, but I saw pictures of it and and I saw evidence of where it was. And I know they fixed my car in there. Um, it certainly wasn't a wreck, but it was it was some body damage there. So, I know
it was done for us. And that was 19 94 95 when that work was done. And I knew where the car was cuz I saw it when it was getting fixed in the corner. I hope that helps. >> It helps, I think, except for the the
question of abandonment the last couple years. There is some testimony of that. >> Yeah. >> So, Hi, my name is um Annie Pilaski. I live around the block on Beach Avenue. Um we've lived there for over 20 years. I
actually used to get my car fixed at Lally's. And I was always amazed that for how many bays that building has, he only had one working, which was the one right next to the office. So those other two or three whatever is on the side
like weren't being used. I've never ex seen any body work being done. I've never seen any painting. I I'm just personally in the time that I've lived there. I've gotten my brakes done. I've gotten my oil changes. I've gotten all that kind of stuff, but I've never seen
auto body repair done there. >> When were you last in the building? Oh. Um, you went in there when it was being rented to the to that what's his what was that guy's name? >> I remember the man's name well. His name was Lennon.
>> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. And uh it was mostly tires and repair and with Yeah. We we used to get oil changes there done and it was um Yeah. There wasn't a lot going on there. >> Yeah. I I used to also get my oil change
at for years and I I don't remember a lot. I mean oftentimes I'd need a repair and he'd send me somewhere else like right >> just for not a body repair but just >> a simple repair and rather than an oil change he'd send me >> you know sometimes he'd fix it but
sometimes he'd send me places wasn't >> he had he was slowing down a lot on what he was doing there. over. >> I was at Bob's a lot. We were friends. I was there so often over the years. Um, he helped me with a lot of my projects
and I never saw him doing any spray painting. I don't know if that's useful to you or not, but I I think I would have smelled it if he was doing any painting. Um, also is it is it unreasonable for me to
ask for the manufacturer's name and the model number and all the specs for dealing with the particle matter and the gaseous and the gases the volatile organ is that unreasonable for me to ask? And the second thing is do you ever run into an incident when you're doing something
on the zoning board? I understand you're looking at it from a different perspective, but do you ever run into anything where it might cause you to refer something to the board of health for the environmental concerns? >> Um, I don't think it's unreasonable for you for you to ask. I'm sure when when they pull the permit, um, if they if
they were going to do it and they had to pull a permit, they would have to they would explain. They would be much more detailed. I don't know if you've made that decision what brand you would go with. >> We have an idea, but it was on the tenant. >> Okay. So, they haven't made that. was just a landlord. So, I'm going to depend
on the tenant. >> So, they haven't made that decision yet as far as the brand, but if a permit was pulled, they would they would have uh have to >> Would there be another plans? >> Would there be another hearing? I mean, can we know this information before you make your decision? That seems reasonable. Well, it's not really that's
not our jur. So, our jurisdiction is um really on the use as far as the details um um on what that booth looks like and and um how it filters and everything like that that our building commissioner would be in charge of making sure that
was meeting all the state state legis rules and as well as town rules. But most of that's legislated by the state. >> I think any permit is eventually public record. So you could look up a permit number and it would have drawings and specifications attached to it that
>> but you would have already approved the permit. So what >> we wouldn't approve the building a permit. We would we would to be honest in this in this situation normally what we would do is issue a special permit. This is an an unusual situation in the sense that there is no special permit for this use. The only way this use of
as an auto body shop the only reason it exists at all in this location is because it always has. So, it's a continued use. So, we wouldn't we basically would be issuing a finding that the use is indeed continuous and they can then continue it. So, that's what we would be issuing. We wouldn't
really be issuing a special permit. Um the building permit would be what they would be pulling from the um building commissioner and that would have all the detailed plans of everything they're going to do and it's up to the building commissioner to issue that permit. But um that is public record and you would
be able to >> but that it doesn't involve another hearing. It does not involve a hearing. It's either they can do it. The the um the inspector either allows it or does not. >> Allows the spray paint booth. You mean? Yes. >> Going back to the same issue that we you
know it seems like we're stalled here and >> Yeah. I think what would be helpful is if we had >> if the petitioner can answer the question, can he provide what? >> Yeah. Do you do you feel you can provide information receives from customers that have had auto body work done? Um >> you can provide anything you want, right? just you know anything that you
think help >> that you think shows that the use has not was never abandoned. >> Sure. >> And that's something you could come back come back for. >> Um did anybody else have any any other questions? >> All right. I I was just looking at um on
486 section six which is what protects I'm familiar with it so much for protection of a pre-existing structure or pre-existing non-conforming law and I just wanted I just went into West Law research just to see what it says about
use and I think it might be instructive for us something for me to learn too. >> Yeah. um because it does talk about um it gets into believe it or not the
second except clause. Remember that from some of the stuff but um so 486 contains two except clauses as follows. one except as herein provided a zoning ordinance or bylaw shall not
apply to structures or uses lawfully in existence are lawfully begun. So same as it protects a structure. So if it's existing it's grandfathered. And then there's B but shall apply to
any change or substantial extension of such use. Um so that's what we have here on that analysis. And then there's the second except clause except where
um actually the second except looks like it just refers to structure not to use. So, it looks like there's um but then there's there's a case
actually they talk about the second except clause for structure as it relates to use. Um, but I I think it's just the um that analysis that
they're protected, but any change or substantial um if it's if it's a non-material change, I think that's another avenue the petitioner has. If we ruled it as something minor, if we had a finding
that the expansion of the use was minor uh in relation to the protected principal use, I think we have authority to grant relief there too. So I think there's two potential avenues of relief. One is if they can prove the continuous uninterrupted
use, accessory use. And then number two, if they can prove that they don't if they don't have that, then if the use is not
um a substantial change, specifically a substantial extension of such use, >> but an extension is like if if I spent my whole life painting with a brush and then someone invents a sprayer and now,
>> you know, it the evolution of it >> just >> it's subjective I don't think it's subjective it's very subjective as to whether or not >> it's a substantial change >> there is >> either the painting has been ongoing and continuous and then that's the finding
or like you said the finding would be that um that a body shop it is analogous is not a substantial difference than a repair shop and that's >> that would The other analysis if you feel that a body shop is you know if the
board members feel a body shop is an extension of a um you know general repair and that it's not substantially different then that would be the >> and and that's why I read your definition because you the chairwoman is correct. There are there are some uh
municipal bodies that issue separate licenses through whatever licensing entity they have it whether it's the licensing board or the city council or they issue separate licenses for auto body auto repair. Some municipalities
uh and even here if you were to approve it you have to get permits for the storage of the paint because it's a flammable. But uh what attorney Kamisky was talking about there there is a line of cases that for that second accept
clause it's known as the powers test. >> Yeah. >> And and I I didn't specifically say it but I clearly read the three tests that the use reflects the nature and the purpose of the nonconformity uh previously went took effect before zoning was in effect. There's no
difference in the quality or character as well as the degree. And that's that's the subjective part that goes back to my Jesuit training. Degree is volume. It's not essence. And so motor vehicle repair. It's working on motor vehicles.
And uh I I purposely chose the definition the example of a a gas station because that's a reported uh case where the modernization of a gas station from an old gas station was found not to be substantially an expansion. It was just a modernization.
It was a renovation. And that's that's why I I I use that example. And then the other part of the third prong of that powers was a building inspector. That's the the case is named for uh that the resulting use has no difference in effect on the neighborhood. Lai's garage
has been there longer than most and this would not make a difference in effect on the neighbor that those three criteria go to that second accept clause into whether how you make a determination of whether so there's a series of cases that say yeah this is substantial and
there's a series of cases that say that's not substantial. They're all reported. You could look at them, but in my judgment, we fall to the side of the line that says, especially since your definition says fenders, bumpers, uh,
whoever drafted the definition of auto repair or motor vehicle repair in the town of Swampsk clearly had in mind it didn't stop with the engine. It went to the uh, bodywork of the vehicle. >> We're back to the same thing. Yeah, it's
it's actually that Balta >> Palalta actually, >> you know, comes up all the time. >> Comes up all the time. Yeah. >> Not only structure, but with quoting within um Balta, it says structure or use >> or use. Yeah. >> He says he can prove that it's a continu. >> Yeah. If you can prove I I would say
yeah, I would say that's come back. Give us the proof and we'll >> So, what we'll do is we'll continue this to our next month's meeting and um we'll ask you to bring proof that it's a that it's been a continued use. If it's a continued use, then then um it's it's
just a finding. It's not a special permit. It's just a finding that it's been a continued use and then you have a right to continue that use. Um >> the date of that meeting >> the date of that meeting is um and before I just want to check and make sure that whoever is attending online
didn't want to also speak for the public hearing. >> All right. >> Oh, that's right. Thank you. >> November 18th. I'm looking up the date also. >> November 18. I have >> Yep. >> Yeah, that's what I have too. >> Can I ask one last question?
>> Yes, sure. Just wait for the microphone, please. >> Thank you. So, just to make sure I understand what you're trying what you've been trying to tell me is that at the end of this hearing tonight, whatever decision you make, what is the status of the of the spray paint booth?
So, right, what what we're deciding what we're talking about doing right now is continuing this to the um November 18th meeting. Um, and at which point the petitioner is being asked to bring some proof that this has been a continuous use um of the um auto body shop portion
of of the um repair shop. And if that is a continued use then and that is in the entire and the the board votes that it it looks like it has been a continuous use then you would then it would just be a finding that the use can continue then
they would have to pull a permit with the building inspector for anything that they want to build and add to the space >> and that's not that just that's not a public hearing process. >> That's not a public hearing process. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Is that all? >> All right. So can we get a motion to continue to the November 18th meeting?
I'll make a motion to continue to November 18th. >> Second. >> All right. All in favor? >> I >> I >> We'll see you then. >> Thank you. >> Cut to the chase.